[CFB Article] Recurring Nightmares - Scar Tissue

[Nightmare]

My Legacy-centric set review of Scars. It's not too boring, and you guys played a role. As another point of interest, I'll be writing weekly from now on, posing on Wednesdays.

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/recurring-nightmares-scar-tissue/

[Nidd]

Phyrexelion list needs more LDV.

Nice read, keep it up.

[yankeedave]

I'll be writing weekly from now on, posing on Wednesdays.



Can I request that for next week, you pose in a Borat style Mankini?

On a more serious note, very good article, it was a good breakdown that didnt hit every single card whether it was relevent or not! Nicely done.

[practical joke]

I think he forgot some interesting cards:

Sword of Body and mind: the first sword that has pro-tarmogoyf and produces bears. Might not be the best equipment around, it's still worth mentioning

Assault strobe: You made that infest/stompy list, I wonder why this fancy common wasn't mentioned.

Leonin arbiter: Worth discussing, probably not going to be good enough, but suppression field is annoying as hell as it is.


I do have to say, it was a good read and a very nice article. I agree with yankeedave here that you skipped most of the cards from the set, which was a blessing. At Mirrodin Besieged I expect something similar = )

[jazzykat]

At a much higher level than most. Thank you.

[pippo84]

Cool article!

Some cards will defenetly see play for the rest we'll see.

As for Grand Architect and Emrakul it won't work, but as you pointed out you shoul win by attacking anyways..

Anyways a 20 lord merfolk build can be fun! :tongue:

[Nightmare]

I think he forgot some interesting cards:

Sword of Body and mind: the first sword that has pro-tarmogoyf and produces bears. Might not be the best equipment around, it's still worth mentioning

Assault strobe: You made that infest/stompy list, I wonder why this fancy common wasn't mentioned.

Leonin arbiter: Worth discussing, probably not going to be good enough, but suppression field is annoying as hell as it is.


I do have to say, it was a good read and a very nice article. I agree with yankeedave here that you skipped most of the cards from the set, which was a blessing. At Mirrodin Besieged I expect something similar = )

Sword - its not going to see play. Sword of Fire and Ice has better abilities, Sword of Light and Shadow has better protection colors, and neither sees play outside random 1-ofs in tier 2+ decks. This one is no different.

Strobe - while it may arguably be better than Reckless Charge, the fact that its a sorcery makes me shy away. It basically says "this is the guy I'm all in on" when you have multiple attackers, and makes it much more difficult to slip one through without Berserk. It works really well with Berserk or when unopposed, but its not zerk 5-8.

Arbiter - its not exactly suppression field. Its more like suppression field that only slows fetches, and only once per turn. While that's not bad, the decks that want suppression field don't want it on a body because they play tabernacles. Also, this doesn't stop top or vial or pridemage or lavamancer. It does slow survival the first time they use it each turn, which might be ok. I dunno man, it gets a meh from me.

[morgan_coke]

I really think you're wrong about affinity and Galvanic Blast. 4 damage vs. 3 is a pretty big difference in terms of eliminating random scary monster or killing an opponent. I see affinity going in a more red direction, and bringing back shrapnel blast to pair with the usual crew and Disciple. If you're running full sets of Shrapnel and Galvanic, thats 36 damage, plus whatever you get from Disciple. That's an awful lot of non-combat damage hitting decks that probably took a few hits from the critters before they stabilized the board.

It also seems like Leonin Arbiter (no fetches or search in affinity) and Ethersworn Canonist (very few non-artifacts) could almost be maindecked in Affinity as disruption, especially with Vial, Opal, and Drum to help out on the mana. Fast clock, free spells, tons of burn and lifeloss, plus maindecked format hate all seems like a potentially very strong deck, much more so than simply upping the ante on the old "turn dudes sideways" plans.

[Nidd]

I really think you're wrong about affinity and Galvanic Blast. 4 damage vs. 3 is a pretty big difference in terms of eliminating random scary monster or killing an opponent. I see affinity going in a more red direction, and bringing back shrapnel blast to pair with the usual crew and Disciple. If you're running full sets of Shrapnel and Galvanic, thats 36 damage, plus whatever you get from Disciple. That's an awful lot of non-combat damage hitting decks that probably took a few hits from the critters before they stabilized the board.

It also seems like Leonin Arbiter (no fetches or search in affinity) and Ethersworn Canonist (very few non-artifacts) could almost be maindecked in Affinity as disruption, especially with Vial, Opal, and Drum to help out on the mana. Fast clock, free spells, tons of burn and lifeloss, plus maindecked format hate all seems like a potentially very strong deck, much more so than simply upping the ante on the old "turn dudes sideways" plans.
As for Affinity, I see multiple directions.

Affinity "Sligh": Shrapnel Blast + Galvanic Blast, Glaze Fiend, maybe Bob, maybe Painsmith. Very fast, lot's of reach.
Affinity "Broken stuff": Thopter Foundry. It's the nuts with Master or Overseer (note: No SotM. It doesn't mesh well with master.).
Affinity "Regular": This version adds in Moxen and Memnite to become faster than the old incarnation.
Affinity "Midrange": Might include Goyf and/or Etched Champion.


I know lots of people shy away from playing Goyf, but, come one folks, why not play the biggest creature in the game when you can fuel it? Once they waste 1 land of yours, Goyf gets +2/+2. Once 1 of your creatures dies, Goyf gets +2/+2. Plating means your Goyf can bash through other Goyfs. Where's the problem?

[Aggro_zombies]

I know lots of people shy away from playing Goyf, but, come one folks, why not play the biggest creature in the game when you can fuel it? Once they waste 1 land of yours, Goyf gets +2/+2. Once 1 of your creatures dies, Goyf gets +2/+2. Plating means your Goyf can bash through other Goyfs. Where's the problem?
I agree with this. Affinity's biggest problem has been how rapidly its creatures become outclassed, especially when compared to a deck like Zoo (and especially against Zoo). Goyf can block every creature in the Affinity deck - save Ornithopter - and survive; killing Goyf with Ravager requires you to million-for-one yourself, which is unappealling. Cranial Plating also busts through Goyf, but there are any number of commonly-played ways to deal with either Plating or the creature wearing it, especially if said creature is small.

I've been floating the following concept list:

4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Frogmite

4 Galvanic Blast
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Shrapnel Blast

4 Cranial Plating

3 Mox Opal
2 Springleaf Drum

4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid

Some of the numbers are awkward, and the deck could probably use something like Dark Confidant. However, the concept is relatively sound: you're a lot like Zoo, but you trade some raw power for synergy. You have a very powerful burn suite, which when combined with Disciple/Ravager, allows you to Fireball an opponent out from a relatively high life total. Related to the issue I previously raised: another problem with Affinity is a relative lack of staying power, mostly because of how ineffective you become in combat in the first few turns of the game. Once you empty your opener on a fast start, the opponent is in an excellent position to play to start blocking crush you. This deck's goal is to attack as hard as possible, for as long as possible, and then unleash a combo-kill-like torrent of burn and Disciple triggers.

Either way, Affinity needs a lot more than what Scars gave it in order to be playable again.

[Rico Suave]

I agree with this. Affinity's biggest problem has been how rapidly its creatures become outclassed, especially when compared to a deck like Zoo (and especially against Zoo).

So your solution was to add burn? How does that compute?

[AngryTroll]

So your solution was to add burn? How does that compute?

If your creatures are outclassed and the ground stalls up, you need to punch through extra damage to finish the game. Burn lets you send chunks of 4 or 5 at your opponent's dome or blow up his blocker so that your Cranial Plating-wearing dude hits him for 10. If you're busy drawing into more outclassed dudes (Enforcer) or draw spells to draw more outclassed dudes, your creatures stay outclassed and you lose.

[Aggro_zombies]

If your creatures are outclassed and the ground stalls up, you need to punch through extra damage to finish the game. Burn lets you send chunks of 4 or 5 at your opponent's dome or blow up his blocker so that your Cranial Plating-wearing dude hits him for 10. If you're busy drawing into more outclassed dudes (Enforcer) or draw spells to draw more outclassed dudes, your creatures stay outclassed and you lose.
Basically. The idea is that your creatures are generally much worse than the opponent's, and there aren't enough good draw spells for Affinity to continuously outnumber the opponent. So instead, you attack for as long as you can and finish the opponent off with burn. Alternately, you can burn small blockers out of the way, but given how good your burn spells are, it's probably more worthwhile to aim them at the opponent.

[Artowis]

The problem at that point is why not just take a more combo oriented route to begin with and rely on the beatdown plan as a back-up? If there's a creature deck that 'rapidly outclasses' you and already packs burn and the best removal in the game, perhaps it's easier to take a different approach.

[Rico Suave]

You guys have jumped way ahead of yourselves. I'm not even talking about a conceptual idea. I'm talking about simple math. If your Myr Enforcer is too small to get through a creature, how the *$&# is a Lightning Bolt going to remove that creature so your Enforcer begins dealing damage again? It's just a complete lack of common sense.

[AngryTroll]

You guys have jumped way ahead of yourselves. I'm not even talking about a conceptual idea. I'm talking about simple math. If your Myr Enforcer is too small to get through a creature, how the *$&# is a Lightning Bolt going to remove that creature so your Enforcer begins dealing damage again? It's just a complete lack of common sense.


If your creatures are outclassed and the ground stalls up, you need to punch through extra damage to finish the game. Burn lets you send chunks of 4 or 5 at your opponent's dome or blow up his blocker so that your Cranial Plating-wearing dude hits him for 10. If you're busy drawing into more outclassed dudes (Enforcer) or draw spells to draw more outclassed dudes, your creatures stay outclassed and you lose.


Basically. The idea is that your creatures are generally much worse than the opponent's, and there aren't enough good draw spells for Affinity to continuously outnumber the opponent. So instead, you attack for as long as you can and finish the opponent off with burn. Alternately, you can burn small blockers out of the way, but given how good your burn spells are, it's probably more worthwhile to aim them at the opponent.

Shrapnel Blast , Galvanic Blast, Lightning Bolt, and Disciple of the Vault can seal the game after the ground has stalled. Bolt can remove a Nacatle or Steppe Lynx that's holding off your 1/1s and 2/2s. Once the ground stalls up with Goyfs and Knights of the Reliquary, it's time to throw the burn at your opponent.

[Rico Suave]

You seem to be missing the point. Here was the stated problem:

"Affinity's biggest problem has been how rapidly its creatures become outclassed, especially when compared to a deck like Zoo"

So I'll ask again, how does adding burn to the deck solve this problem? Burn isn't going to remove the problematic creatures. And it's not going to make Affinity faster than Zoo (big creatures + burn > small creatures + burn).

So what gives? I asked for a bit of common sense and got a post telling me Steppe Lynx is holding off creatures. This just baffles my mind.

[emidln]

Who wants to attack as a 4/5 into a Myr Enforcer when you can block as an 0/1?

[LostButSeeking]

Arbiter - its not exactly suppression field. Its more like suppression field that only slows fetches, and only once per turn. While that's not bad, the decks that want suppression field don't want it on a body because they play tabernacles. Also, this doesn't stop top or vial or pridemage or lavamancer. It does slow survival the first time they use it each turn, which might be ok. I dunno man, it gets a meh from me.

What Arbiter DOES stop is storm combo, which is what the mono-white and fetchless DnT wants it for. Infernal tutors are basically blanks until i've gotten rid of it (Diabolic tutor . . . ugh). It has applications against other decks too, further disrupt fetchland dependent mana bases. I agree that most applications of the card would be poor, but I have hope for its uses in DnT. I think it could be a strong card there.

[Finn]

It may be good in D+T even if it clashes with Mystic. A lot of people are trying to figure that out right now. If Survival Madness is actually a deck and not just a fad, it will get even better. The anti-combo role is not nearly as big as it first seems though. Adam's world does not include D+T for some reason, so you will have to forgive his oversight.

Incidentally, the Sword may also be good in D+T, but it is not as likely.

[Aggro_zombies]

You seem to be missing the point. Here was the stated problem:

"Affinity's biggest problem has been how rapidly its creatures become outclassed, especially when compared to a deck like Zoo"

So I'll ask again, how does adding burn to the deck solve this problem? Burn isn't going to remove the problematic creatures. And it's not going to make Affinity faster than Zoo (big creatures + burn > small creatures + burn).

So what gives? I asked for a bit of common sense and got a post telling me Steppe Lynx is holding off creatures. This just baffles my mind.
The problem as stated is correct (of course it would be, since I stated it). There are two solutions to this problem that I can see:

1) Try to prevent your creatures from becoming irrelevant.
2) Accept that your creatures will become outclassed and find an alternate way to end the game once they are.

The former would involve moving in the direction of a blue-white build with things like Master and Tempered Steel. While those two make your creatures very threatening, their destruction also opens up the possibility of being completely destroyed in combat. That seems like an unacceptable risk given the relatively high number of Grips and Pridemages in Legacy today, although it does seem like a really good plan against decks not using too many of either card.

The other option is to accept that you can rush your opponent early, but that he will stabilize in the midgame and make it extremely difficult to attack. At that point, you need some way to end the game. That's why I added burn: you burn the opponent out.

In other words, the timeline is as follows:

Play guys.
Attack with guys.
Guys can't attack any more because doing so would wipe you out.
Stop attacking with guys.
Burn opponent.

There's not much you can do to make Affinity's creatures bigger without running terrible cards, so you might as well accept that you can only attack for the first few turns, and then need a plan to finish the game once you can't attack any more. That plan is burning the opponent.

That's not that hard, IMO.

[Rico Suave]

I don't think you are understanding the problem correctly. You talk about Zoo "stabilizing" or something as if it was ever behind, which leads me to believe we have a fundamental disagreement about what is going on here.

I am saying that Zoo's creatures are bigger and better as early as turn 1. Why would Zoo ever care about blocking? Sure maybe it will block with a Goyf once because it doesn't have haste. But Zoo wants to attack with its bigger and better creatures, and because they're bigger they will dominate the combat step and deal a lot more damage. What this means is Zoo will bring Affinity to burn range long before Affinity can do the same in reverse.

Imagine for a minute that Zoo has a 10 second 100meter dash. And now imagine Affinity has a 12 second 100meter dash. Adding burn to Affinity drops it to a 11 second race, but it's still going to lose. Burn is not the solution.

[Aggro_zombies]

Burn is not the solution.
Maybe. But then, adding a bunch of 1/1 dudes for zero and hoping to go into topdeck mode on turn two isn't the solution either.

[voltron00x]

Brad and I have conversed on Affinity before so he knows I really want the deck to be good. Here's the thing: if you're playing Affinity, you're doing so because you think it is the aggro strategy best-suited to beat the other non-aggro decks in the format. Right now, you want an aggro deck that beats Merfolk, Madness, and CB-Top while still having game against decks like Goblins and Dredge. Affinity might be that deck.

However, if you're worried about playing Affinity against Zoo, you fundamentally have problem. Zoo is going to beat you, most of the time. If you're playing against Zoo, Affinity isn't the right deck. You can mitigate this to some extent, as you can SB Perish / Nature's Ruin and so on, but I'd still rather be on the Zoo side.

Affinity deploys very quickly, making it ideal against some of the other problem decks that are geared to beat Zoo, not Affinity.

Still, I think that I'd probably rather take my chances with Zoo in a month, when the format has stopped paying attention to it again, than try to battle with Affinity in the meantime. I say that knowing that I'll still put time into testing Affinity b/c I love the deck.