Intuition Countertop

[ivanpei]

I've posted an extensive mini primer on the countertop thread in DTB but I think its a better idea to post a new deck, as pointed out to me that it is fundamentally different.

This is my no-goyf intuition countertop.

I did more testing with firespout countertop and realised a few things. As good as goyf and clique were as finishers, they are simply removal magnets. Without countertop lock, they almost always eat removal. Not having a high enough creature count severely limits they're usefulness early game. Has anyone else found this annoying? I've played countertop thopther for ages and I loved the fact that opponents always had dead removal. Therefore I'd like to propose a creatureless version of countertop:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell snare

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's divining top
2 Jace TMS
2 Intuition
1 Life from the loam

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice
3 Firespout

2 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's factory
9 Blue Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island

Basically its my firespout list with 2 Cliques -> 2 Intuition, 4 Goyf -> 2 Maze of ith, 1 loam, 1 counterspell. Some basics -> mishra's factory. I don't claim to be original, big props to CAB Jace's creator for this idea.

Ok lets have a look at what clique is good against -> combo + control, its a flash, evasive, disruptive beater against combo/control, excellent! But Its is terrible vs aggro, how I loathe this fact.

Intuition -> excellent vs combo, finds balance/top for the soft lock straight away, basically an instant speed demonic tutor. Against control, finds countertop or loam/ factory vs opponents with wastelock, smokestack etc. Very flexible. Against aggro, panic button firespout @ instant speed, deliciously yummy, later it gets loam, double maze, also extremely yummy.

Goyfs-> Excellent vs everything but, removal magnet and I've found him very lacklustre against anything but tribal. Simply not enough dudes to justify running him. Counterspell is always excellent, I've loved drawing it, now with so many ways to find removal and keep the board empty, the 4th was a no-brainer, also needed a higher 2cc count. Maze of ith is actually really great, if could have been path but that's a speed boost for the opponent while maze is a tempo lost for us if we drop it turns 2/3. What it does is that it can be found and recurred through intuition, is an excellent removal spell and FORCES opponents to overextend into firespout. Merfolk/zoo can no longer slow roll you with a single dude etc. This serves the same sort of roll as wall of tarmogoyf (without enabling swords to plowshares).

Loam is actually very underated in countertop. I used to play "Its The Fear" by Gearheart and it only had limited targets. With intuition, you have more ways to find it and it really helps you hard lock up the game by giving you infinite fetches. Infinite fetches + countertop = GG. Also it recurs maze/factories and protects you from wasteland/ opponents hate very well.

Factories are an alternate win condition next to Jace. Also very good with loam. Factory is also underated IMO as a blocker. Having a factory already in play, I've intuitioned for double maze, loam and pretty much locked aggro out of the game. They have to over extend heavily and I just drop a spout to clean up.

Some problems are: killing in time, this has the same clock as landstill, which is pretty slow. But with so much library manipulation and now Jace, it should be ok.

Anyway food for thought. :)

This is Valtrix's Goyfed intuition countertop:



Re: [DTW] CounterTop

I've actually been playing something in a similar vein with very good results:

// Lands
2 [IN] Island (2)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [OD] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SHM] Firespout
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [TE] Intuition
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [DLM] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast

In particular, I like the 4-method approach to winning the game, because I think it makes it difficult for opponents to deal with all 4 ways you have to win: Goyf, Jace, Countertop, EE recursion. Namely because each one requires a different specific answer, sideboarding becomes very tricky. I've found intuition to be particularly strong against almost anything non-aggro, non-control, as setting up EE-lock is simply back-breaking. Or, if necessary intuition is just a blue demonic tutor at instant speed which I'm pretty okay with. I like that each part of the lock is good by itself, so I don't sacrifice anything for intuition. Maze and shackles are there for a little extra abuse, but I've found maze useful for extension into 2-for-1s with spouts or EEs and shackles is insane in any MU where an opponent needs/wants a creature.

I think I also need to have an aside for life from the loam, because it is absurd in this deck. It has so much synergy with top it's unreal, since it brings fetchlands for the rest of the game and dredges things you don't want from the top. It also plays well to get you a 2cc for balance if you have a brainstorm in hand and a loam in the yard. I also think it's necessary in terms of land drops, because it's made me a lot more consistent and games where you can always get lands tend to work in your favor. After goyfs and balance, I think it's the next best 2cc card you can play.

As for the sideboard, I think it complements the main deck quite a bit. On a first glance a lot of it appears redundant with the main deck, but it gives a lot of tools to have a very high density of the best cards in your deck for certain MUs. For example, versus aggro you can bring in 6 creature hate cards (paths, firespout, EEs) which leaves you with 16 ways + 4 goyfs to deal with creatures, which is a nightmare for aggro decks, even merfolk, to deal with. There's a lot of cross hate as well, as things like EEs, pierces, and REBs tend to be useful in a lot of MUs.

That's all I have for now, but I'm willing to discuss it more if people like it.


I welcome discussion especially on what to include in the intuition toolbox, what to cut etc. I like Valtrix's academy ruins + shackles + EE combo. It's slow but extremely powerful, giving countertop the long game power for the slugfest.

My version has to play factories (due to rolling without goyfs) as an alternate win condition but the deck is simpler, faster and more streamlined. I however am missing the raw power of the ruins combo.

Further arguments for no-goyfing and running mishra's instead:

Tarmogoyf, as pointed out, is a finisher and a very quick/good one at that. There's no denying that fact, IMO its just fallen out of favor with me (how blasphemous) due to the godly amounts of removal played now, and the deck's lack of other creature. I agree that Factories get plowed too and cannot be recurred with loam. However, if you are activating and bashing with factory, you better have the countertop soft lock out to protect the factories. Like IsThisACatInAHat said, Tarmogoyf serves a similar function, don't drop it until you have countertop lock. Clique also eats removal and trades well vs merfolk which does not have removal, but against zoo, clique is very bad. Factories are built into your manabase, they just stick around making mana, occasionally blocking when under pressure until you get your soft lock up and they start swinging with countertop protection. Tarmogoyfs sit in your hand early game because I know its gonna get plowed when I plunk in down early game. Just my two cents

The sideboard:
2 Relic of progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt
3 Krosan Grip
4 Red elemental blast (or a split 2/2 with pyroblast)
1 Firespout
2 Blue elemental blast
2 Pithing needle (loose slot)

Bad matchups are goblins and dedicated control decks (jacestill with deeds, other landstill builds). Mandatory grave hate and krosan grips are there. 4th firespout is there for aggro, REBs are the best sideboard card against control. It counters/destroys jace, counters counterbalance, helps force through your own bombs. Just absolutely golden vs blue. 4 Copies because jacestill preboard is such a hard matchup. The blue elemental blast is there mainly for goblins (and also good against kird ape zoo/heavy red zoo). Goblins is actually very difficult because of aether vial and their number of must counter bombs. Aether vial is such a huge threat and the only answer is force MD. Post board you at least have a couple of grips and needle. The blue blasts are important for nuking their turn 1 lackeys as well as countering ringleader, matron and SGC. Needle also helps against the turn 1 vial as well as all the survival decks/random running around. Needle can also name deed against jacestill.

Boarding plans:

Against Zoo:
-1 life from the loam, + 1 firespout OR -2 intuition, -1 loam, -1 Fire/Ice, + 1 firespout, + 3 krosan grip (if you suspect sylvan library, choke etc). This should be positive for you, firespout is such a beating, and so is maze of ith for making sure they can't play around the spout.

Against Merfolk,
-1 counterbalance, -1 top, -1 counterspell (slow, - 4 Force of will (highly unlikely they'll bring in anything you absolutely must force, you're not afraid of perish), + 4 REB, + 1 Firespout, + 2 Needle. Needle turns off so many cards, mutavault, wasteland, aether vial, jitte (not that you really care about jitte), coralhelm (not that you would actually want to name this, just kill it). If you're mana screwed you should preemp with needle on waste, usually I just name vault and that turns off their only non-firespoutable creature. This is actually not a hard MU, keep standstill off the table with your many blasts + counterspells and just spout/1 for one all their dudes.

Against Countertop mirror:

-3 Firespout, -2 Fire/Ice, + 3 Krosan Grip, +2 Red elemental blast. If its the firespout version with very little creatures (when I play that version my common plan is to board out my dudes), -1 maze and -1 STP + the other 2 REBs, He who sticks balance/jace wins, this should be a little in your favour because you play more must counters (ie intuition). This is still too much of a coinflip though post board as they're STPs will definitely be going out (as well as their firespouts). Preboard, they're spouts + STPs are dead. Their goyfs and cliques enables your own STPs and spouts while your intuitions are must counters against them.

Against Jacestill UBG:

-3 Firespout, -4 STP, -2 maze of ith, + 4 REB, + 2 Needle, + 3 Grip. They have no dudes so all removal comes out, REBs are obviously excellent, needle stops deed mainly, to protect your countertop lock. Can also name factories in a pinch (some collateral here, you still have jace). Grips kill a deed that can't be popped the turn it came down as well as factories. Intuition is so good here in the slugfest. Fire/Ice still stays in because it kills factory and can tap down opponent's countermana eot for you to force through your bomb.

Storm combo (TES, belcher, solidarity):
Each one is different, just generally: -4 STP, -2 Maze of Ith. For belcher: +2 needle,+ 2 BEB, + 1 Firespout, + 1 relic of progenitus (it at least cantrips). For TES, + 4 BEB, + 2 REB, (additionally cut 1 loam and 2 fire/ice for firespout and 2 relic- turns off IGG combo, relic also cantrips). For solidarity, + 4 REB, + 2 BEB, (also cut 3 firespout for 2 Relic, 1 pithing needle) Needle can name a fetchland and relic cantrips. BEB pitches to force.

Against goblins:
- 3 Spell snare, -2 counterbalance, -2 Sensei's divining top. +1 firespout,+ 2 BEB, + 2 needle, + 2 grip. The problem with this MU unlike other aggro is not surviving the initial onslaught, its surviving the ringleaders, SGCs and matrons that are uncounterable through vial. Countertop is bad because the things you are really worried about cost >2 mana, spell snare only targets piledriver (I don't see alot of lists with instigator/ you dont care about warren weirding and stingscourger). Grips are for vial. This is where traditional firespout lists with goyf is better. You have no clock so you can't stick an early goyf and race them with it while countering/killing all their creatures.

Against Survival:
- 3 Firespout (unless you see fauna/bob), - 2 Fire/Ice, - 1 Life from the loam, -2 maze of ith, + 3 grips, + 2 Needles, + 2 relic + 1 crypt. Survival has goyfs (usually), so STP stays in. Grips, needles and relic/crypt are all good vs survival, thats so much hate its hard to lose to survival. Depending on how combo/aggro oriented the list is, you may want to exclude the relic and crypt and keep the loam and the mazes. Sometimes you board in all the combo hate and you just die to beats.

Against Dredge:
- 4 counterspell, - 3 spell snare, - 2 maze of ith, - life from the loam, + 4 REB, + 1 Firespout, + 2 Relic, + 1 Crypt, + 2 needle. Counterspell is too slow to counter careful study/LED/breakthrough/putrid imp. Spell snare does absolutely nothing and the same goes for maze/life from the loam. REBs counter careful study and breakthrough (even deep analysis), and can blow up narcomoebas while still during their draw step before mainphase. Firespout sweeps tokens/ your own factory to remove bridges. Relic and crypt are obvious. Needle can name Cephalid Colosseum/putrid imp.

Please discuss.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

At first I wasn't interested in this kind of deck but then I must say Valtrix's list caught my eye. I still like goyf because realistically, decks like Landstill and Thoptersword have trouble finishing games in time during tournaments. Whether or not the community acknowledges it, unintentional draws can be a major source of not T8ing with an otherwise powerful deck. Buuut, I can see merit in excluding them, maybe to the sideboard as a man-plan postboard after they side out all of their removal in slow matchups. Could be good and I've seen some CB variants doing that, but I haven't tried it myself so I'll just throw it out there.

More toward the rest of deck composition, Intuition for Ruins/Loam/EE seems awesome. I'd definitely keep Ruins the only colorless land in the deck; 4 colors can be difficult enough through Wasteland without Loam online, so unless you run basic Forest it's probably gonna be bad news bears (even then, you need to find Intuition). On that note, I think Valtrix has a pretty sexy list going. I'd cut the 2 bad cards (Maze, Shackles) and replace them with either, 2nd EE, 3rd Intuition or 4th Jace (probably 2nd EE). I foresee this deck still having difficulty against tribal aggro because the Intuition->Loam->EE->Ruins plan takes a pretty long time to set up and Firespout really isn't as game-breaking (especially against Merfolk countermagic) as a lot of people seem to want think it is. All that plus countertop can just be a mess sometimes. If that makes Shackles a necessary evil, maybe it'll just have to do.

Assuming goyf gets either cut or moved to the board, some number of the slots should go to Spell Snare. That's a really conspicuous cut from the Supreme Blue lists and especially now with Vengevival on the warpath, the CMC2 slot is full of must-counters that this deck on the draw can't handle very well. Maybe 3 Snares and 1 Vendilion Clique or maaaybe Tabernacle just for value (I'd still cut Maze even assuming none of the other proposed changes above)?

[jazzykat]

On first look it seems like you could severely benefit from Mox Diamond. Being a turn faster and having any color mana (explosives on 5?) is obviously very good. Loam makes the draw back less of an issue.

Also, it looks like TES will probably beat you if they have an OK start. The slower combo decks are actually adversely affected by real counterspells and I imagine you walk all over the show and tell decks.

As always, with a 4 color deck that allows for so many tricks you have to separate what is necessary to win the game from what is REALLY COOL but inferior.

[ivanpei]

I agree that spell snares should be played. At least 2, but best 3. I'd advise trying both the EE + ruins plan and the maze of ith plans extensively before deciding on one or the other. When under pressure by say 2 goyfs (if it were weenies, you'd panic button firespout anyway). Intuition T3 for academy ruins, loam, ee. T4 play loam, play ruins. You can't activate ruins without enough mana. T5 activate ruins, T6 Blow stuff up. Thats ALOT of mana investment and very very slow. If they were maze of iths, you'd just T4 loam, play maze (turn off 1 goyf) next turn play another maze, turn off another goyf. IMO much faster. Of course by having just mazes you lose the flexibility to kill enchantments/artifacts with EE. That's why my list has 4 counterspells and 3 snares + 4 force. Should be enough to fend off counterbalance/survivals. EE is probably better in a more midrange-countertop meta while mazes are better vs fast aggro.

Also forgot to add another point. My goyf-less list is essentially a 3 colour deck MD (other than loam), and plays well with just 3 colours. In the wasteland MUs, you don't have to fetch green unless you are loaming. And if you are loaming, wastelands shouldn't be a problem.

Considering how slow the goyf less list is @ killing, I think I need the 3rd Jace. What to cut though? Probably the 2nd Maze? I'll try this out and see if I can get away with just 1 maze. Actually When you're ahead with countertop and just want to kill fast, intuition double factory + loam should kill pretty fast.

EDIT: Mox diamonds can be very good, however that would require more abuse of loam so in mox lists, I'd play full 4 intuitions. TES preboard has a chance at beating you if they open T1 duress, T2 kill you. But if they dont open a god hand, you should have the advantage. Post board, + 6 counterspells (4 REB, 2 BEB) makes it very difficult for them.

[pippo84]

The deck concept is nice, but you aren't using intuition at it's best in here. I would cut Fire/Ice for some more tricks..

[ivanpei]

I agree that intuition isnt abused to the fullest in this shell. To play more targets, I'd have to play more intuitions too. If I played more intuitions, I might as well play mox diamond. That needs alot of slot and the deck will morph into some other kind of monster (no idea if it'll get better or worse). For now I'd like to fully polish this counter-top based list first.

Fire/Ice is not amazing I admit, it's just useful in many situations. The deck is pretty low in 2 ccs, so fire/ice fills that slot well. Fire/ice is very good against aggro, I find myself nuking double heirarchs vs bant, or bob + birds vs survival, having a variety and redundancy of removal is good. Countertop always has trouble vs vials. Fire/ice helps curb their army their sneaking into play past your counterspells.

Did more testing just now. I've made 1 Change, just -1 Counterspell, + 1 Jace. Man does this deck kill slow. Adding another Jace helps alot. It is now 50% easier to find with fetchland + top while being able to intuition for Jace is really really good. The kill in time problem is not totally solved, but it just got alot smaller. The 4th counterspell wasn't needed. I had occasions when it was awkward seeing 2 in my hand early game. The testing yielded very good results for me. Blanking opponent's removal is so good. I have learned again and again to never activate factory when I don't have counter top lock.

I think I can actually trim 1 factory if I decide I need another basic. 3 has been good so far. I made 1 very important observation, man is aether vial a pain in the old countertop lists. I just couldn't curb it well enough in the past. Intuition -> loam double maze was critical in helping me stabilize. I would have had my ass handed to me if those were cliques. I realized the deck also blanks equipment now, since I have no dudes and maze laughs at equipment. I killed with factory only in like 10% of games, so factory is starting to look expendable to me. Maybe they should be wastelands? I think it might be safer to have factories just in case my jaces get extirpated/needled or something.

Against control, not having dudes was very juicy. So essentially it was the battle of the Jaces. I could have bloody won more if that 4th counterspell was a Jace so I could find it with intuition. Well, had to learn the hard way to realize that. Auto card advantage was excellent. Countertop thopther was not as good in the control mirror because enlightened tutor was card disadvantage and sort of balanced out the opponent's blank removal. Problem was post board, countertop thopter just sucks balls against grip and relevant cards replacing dead removal. I have so much more bombs in the countertop mirror (3 Jace + 4 counterbalance + 2 intuition=9) as well as a boatload of counterspells (4 Force + 3 Counterspells + 3 spell snare= 10), so I have the advantage there. I'm loving the performance so far. Cheers.

[Valtrix]

Instead of quotes, I just want to address a couple points for now. Since I created this deck from the ground up many months ago I've worked through a lot of things in the deck construction. Hopefully that can be useful in discussing it.

1) Goyf: You absolutely want him. He serves a lot of necessary roles in the deck. First and foremost, he is a win-con. I've played decks with just Jaces (with and without factories), but it's just not enough. You need more than that. Having goyf gives you an extra edge. Esepcially in this deck he reaches his maximum potential a lot because you play all card types except tribal, have intuition/loam, and counterspells. Next, he is crucial in any MU where they want creatures to win (IE, almost all of them). Since goyf is almost always the big guy on the field it forces your opponent to have a swarm of creatures or something bigger than you before they can profitably attack. Because of these functions, he is the next best 2cc card you can run for balance and you need that slot filled. Also, goyf plays nicely with balance stopping removal on him. The argument that without creatures you blank creature removal is actually a good one. It might give you some kind of nebulous edge in game 1, but for sideboarded games their gameplan suddenly becomes boarding out useless cards for useful cards. Having goyf forces your opponent to keep removal or to almost just straight up lose to him.

2) Shackles is a fantastic card. In some respects it is slow, but at most times it dominates games. You play enough spells to buy you time to get this online, and shackles moreso than lots of cards in the deck can swing games drastically. It's like goyf being a huge blocker--This forces your opponent to have to build a huge offensive. It has the added benefit of being a win-con too when you can steal the opponent's creature and just get there. Additionally it increases the power of intuition and is insane with ruins out. It also is another 3cc for balance, which is very useful.

3) Maze is there for intuition to allow for loam/maze as an immediate answer. It has the added benefit, especially post board with extra EEs, of forcing your opponent to overextend into your mass removal (firespout, EE). Since you only run 1 you have a lot of selection and there's not really tempo loss for playing this card. Of all slots I probably find this weakest however.

4) Intuition is not at "maximum" power, true. However, you don't need it to be anything other than a blue card that sets up Ruins/EE/loam (or maze/shackles/top if possible) or is a demonic tutor. That's all you need it to do because that right there breaks the game. Ruins/EE/loam is slow, but against anything not-aggro/combo you have plenty of time. Even against those decks you drag the game out so long that intuition can still set that up.

5) 4 colors is not a problem. You'd think that you have a huge vulnerability to wasteland and the like, but this is not really the case. You run 3 red/4 white/5 green. Since you have so much manipulation and a low amount of each color it's quite easy to just build your mana up as you need it, and nothing except blue needs double of its color. So many fetches, basics, manipulation, and loam all help to curve any sort of mana troubles you might have.

Again, I stress how good having 4 ways to victory are: goyf, jace, EE/ruins, and countertop. You have a lot of tools and if anybody attacks one particular angle, you can simply ignore them. For example, if they choose to bring in GY hate, then it hurts none of your gameplan really, since you don't need your yard recursion to function. Or if you have recursion online you run multiple EEs so that a single relic can't stop you; Gripping a balance is still a 1-for1 which you're fine with; etc.

[keys]

@ ivanpei: If you're not happy with Goyf eating removal every game, perhaps you should try playing him in the sideboard. When your opponents takes out his removal for game 2, bring them in and beat down. You're a lot less likely to go to time then. I would never remove him completely from this type of deck, because he gets ridiculously big so fast as Valtrix said (all card types except Tribal), and you need the win conditions.

[ivanpei]

Agreed on your points. I can see going to time being a serious problem. Goyfs side is a very solid idea. IMO -2 blue blasts - 2 needles + 4 goyfs. I don't doubt the raw power of ruins Ee interaction. It really does win games on its own. Against the mirror or any sort of mid range deck like big zoo, its very valuable. I'll try it out and see how I like it. I think I can mise alot of wins with goyf after board and opponents going wtf! Or they can keep removal in and that's fine with me too. Shackles is very good as pointed out, I played nassif countertop and it was such a house. IMO I'd only play either double maze or shackles academy Ee but not both. I can see cutting 2 maze, 1 factory for academy, shackles Ee.

Edit:
Ok so the rough shell for an Intuition countertop build would be:

4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Firespout
2 Intuition
1 Life From The Loam
2 Jace TMS
2 Counterspell

With 9 cards as the flex:
21 mana sources (with or without Mishra's Factory/Academy Ruins)

I'm going to try the goyfs MD this weekend just to see how it pans out. IMO, I can just side it out for game 2 to give me the benefit of blanking removal. The factories stay in because G1, if goyf eats STP, factory is suddenly very useful as a blocker that can be recurred. If I board out goyfs, I need factories as another win condition.

My 9 flex will be:
4 Tarmogoyf
+1 Counterspell (3 total)
2 Spell Snare
2 maze of ith

Another possibility is the ruins-shackles-ee combo, in that case I'll try this 9 flex:
4 Tarmogoyf
+1 Counterspell
+2 Spell Snare
1 Shackles
1 EE
I'm going to cut the 3 factories for Academy ruins and 2 duals in this case, as shackles needs more island support.

I'll let you guys know on what I end up preferring.

[ivanpei]

Ok I'll come clean. Goyf has been working out for me very well. He fills the role of the quick finisher. He also improves the previously very difficult goblin mu. It's still difficult but better. He is just too good not to play. Thanks to you guys for the headsup. I'll test the mazes vs academy package next.

[Antonius]

Curious mind wants to know:

Why isn't miser Tabernacle in here? It dominates Goblins and other Tribal decks. When combined with propaganda (main or side) its pretty much impossible for them to attack.

Also, Unless you're really hot on using Mishra's for early defense, wouldn't Nantuko Monastery be a stronger use of that slot? You could cut the three factories for two more islands (thus shoring up your Shackles and color consistency--getting UU early is the top priority) and one Monastery, which you can intuition up at will and use to clean up the game fast once you have thresh and CB lock to defend it from swords.

[ivanpei]

One, I'm poor (no tabernacle). But I've proxied it up and used it instead of the second maze of ith. It was great against tribal swarm decks like gobbos, If I ever lived to play it off intuition (intuition almost always grabbed me firespout, just struggling to survive). Granted its definitely better than the 2nd maze. Against zoo, or new horizons etc, the 2nd maze was better. They play big dudes and can afford to pay the mana to swing with their giant knights/goyfs. However zoo and new horizons should be pretty good MUs anyway. I definitely like the idea of the tabernacle instead of the 2nd maze. An intuition pile of loam, maze, tabernacle should shut down alot of decks.

Nantuko seems solid too, for compacting the alternate kill. That definitely has to be taken into consideration. If I switch to the islands + shackles version, it'll definitely find a slot in there. Cheers for the heads up. On another note, has everyone been feeling that progenitus hate is starting to be dropped? I've seen alot of emrakul hate (karakas etc), alot of REBs for jace but not so much perish and the likes any more. Could playing simple no-pro countertop the way to go now? I can just afford to ignore so many things that bug me in this list. Dropping NO feels like such a breeze if people are starting to cut down on the progenitus hate.

[Valtrix]

Tabernacle is a poor choice in my opinion. You have no other way to abuse it, no mazes, no mana denial, nothing. The problem is that you need to actually get rid of the creatures. It doesn't matter if the goblins player isn't playing a steady stream of goblins, because in the end you still need to deal with the creates that are in play or you'll die. That just how it is with any other deck. Sure, one mana might be annoying, but I'd much rather just have a path to exile or something to actually get rid of the creature, because if I can't stop the creature from attacking, then having them pay to keep creatures in play makes no impact.

I'm considering dropping the maze from my list right now for the 3rd intuition. I've found maze to be incredibly lackluster because while it can buy you a little time, it really doesn't do what you need it to. Against aggro you want it to force them to overextend into firespout. However, all of those decks play wasteland (and port in the case of goblins), which is a huge hit when you needed it to stay in play to stay alive. Or, you're just going to keep a creature like goyf at bay, so if you have a goyf in play maze doesn't let you break through to start winning. Another intuition feels like it will be very useful, since it's one of the most nightmare plays the deck can make against a lot of other decks.

[ivanpei]

I'm starting to find alternative piles instead of double maze, loam. I've always liked drawing intuition, I don't mind cutting both mazes for a shackles, jace 3. Then I'll retool my manabase to -3 factories + 2 islands + 1 academy ruins. This shifts the focus back to good cards countertop. I'm a big fan of shackles. EE not so much because I think there's too much collateral damage involved with Goyf,balance etc. This leaves me with just Jace and goyf for kills. I think the sideboard plan of all goyfs out is fair to dodge removal. Are the 3 jaces enough though? If I find this insufficient I'll just cut 1 island + 1 nantuko like Antonius suggested.

[4eak]

EE@2 sometimes does have collateral damage, but that isn't really a big deal when you've got the board completely locked out. It isn't like EE@2 without ruins is very common. And, generally, EE isn't going to be totally dead otherwise. If you don't want to clear 2cc out, there are usually other permanents to hit.

You'd be a madman not to play a singleton EE in a control deck with Intuition + Ruins + Loam. Yes, EE/ruins is slow and mana intensive. The deck is perfectly capable of living to the midgame and certainly capable of generating the mana. Take it for another spin against your gauntlet. EE/Ruins is obviously a powerful game-ending lock against a ton of decks, providing inevitability. Additionally, it provides you a way out to resolved permanents that would prevent you from winning (or cause you to lose).



peace,
4eak

[ivanpei]

No worries, I'll give it a try. I've knocked out my own goyf + balance before with deed while playing Its the Fear and still won. However, what would you cut for the EE? What I plan to play:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's divining top
2 Intuition
1 Loam

4 Swords
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken shackles

4 Goyf
3 Jace

21 lands (including an academy ruins)

Loose slots are 3rd Jace, 2 Spell snares. I don't feel comfortable with playing only 2 Jaces because I plan on boarding out goyfs in almost every interactive MU. Spell snares are really good, and I also feel uncomfortable about cutting it. Could the 21st land be expendable due to loam acting as a pseudo land too?

[Valtrix]

No worries, I'll give it a try. I've knocked out my own goyf + balance before with deed while playing Its the Fear and still won. However, what would you cut for the EE?

I'd play my list ;) You really, really want the 22nd land I think. You get so much card quality/selection from top and fetchlands and essentially looking at your whole deck that you want to be able to consistently do everything. Plus, when up against mana denial you really want that extra land. In particular I find the 22nd land to reduce mulligans quite a bit. Also I find that spell snares are nice, but inevitably because of all the goodstuff you can run they become not the weakest link and need to be cut.

[4eak]

Spell Snare or Counterspell are the most reasonable cuts. I'd drop both Spell snares for another Intuition and EE.


peace,
4eak

[ivanpei]

I have a legacy session coming up this weekend so I'll get to give it an extensive trial run. I'll try the changes and see if I miss the snares. Cheers guys.

[ivanpei]

After some testing over friday night and today, I've walked across what I believe is a winner. Initially I tried Valtrix's list. Strengths over the maze list is: Better vs mid range like the rock, countertop mirror, better vs landstill (which maze is dead while shackles takes factories). Weaknesses was: EE+shackles+ ruins is terrible vs fast aggro like zoo, merfolk, goblins, new horizons.

EE+ shackles was a problem also because shackles meant, no basics other than islands. So I always had to fetch non basics in the first few turns, which led to wasteland being a pretty serious issue. Shackles was not as great as I thought. It could not take new horizons monsters which are power >= 5 (Goyf is usually 5/6 due to walkers, artifacts, enchantments which we play). Knights and terravores are always >= 5 power. Add in the fact that Academy ruins is not an island, I needed to have 6 lands in play for it to do anything. I usually am dead by then, especially since new horizons plays wastelands. EE killed either goyf or terravore/knight but not both. EE was ok, usually not as dead as shackles. Usually I just tutor firespout vs zoo/folk/gobbos and triple STP vs new horizons.

However I was still not happy with the double maze solution, it gums down the board, but does not win games. Opponents could drop jace (countertop), and just kill me, or they could just play more dudes (folk/gobbos), since they had infinite time to recover if I don't find jace to compliment the maze lock fast enough. Or I'd just lose to fauna shaman finding the combo finish. However I loved the fact that I had more slots MD to play with so I could fit in spell snares. I sorely missed them vs almost all MUs. Spell snare is just a very good card early game and late. I cut down maze to 1 for another Jace, and did not miss the 2nd maze much. However, my intuition piles were pretty underwhelming. Loam, maze, land is very shitty. Then it struck me, why not play Cephalid Colosseum? It just replaces a dual/island, so my manabase is not compromised and it makes blue mana. I can still afford to play basics. Seemed good.

I tested yesterday vs zoo/gobbos and even though I never really had time to get the combo online, having more slots in the main for snare + more counterspells made a huge difference in keeping me alive. It has the same mu vs fast aggro (I would even be confident enough to say better) like regular sterling lists because the only card difference was: - 2 predict, -2 clique, -1 karakas, -1 dual + 2 intuition, + 1 loam, + 1 counterspell, + 1 maze, + 1 cephalid. The curve is identical, and the deck just became much more bomby/flexible with intuition.

Tested it today vs No-pro bant, new horizons and it was awesome. Facing down a non progenitus monster, I usually EOT intuition for the pile and just won straight away. For 3 mana I get one removal spell (maze), + and infinite draw engine with cephalid + loam. Cephalid + loam usually equates to pay 3 mana, miss a land drop= draw 3 cards discard a card. My control/ mid range MUs were suddenly alot better compared to the double maze solution. Having more counterspells and snares meant that I don't get blown out by early counterbalance/survival, which was very important. I did not lose anything on the aggro lists because I made very little changes to the MD. Against control like landstill, Intuition for the pile is GG. I can outgas them by just dredging loam and drawing lots of cards.

I'm very pleased with the list, comments appreciated! List for reference:

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
3 Jace TMS
4 Force
3 Counterspell
2 Spell snare

4 STP
4 Goyf
3 Firespout
2 Intuition
1 Loam

1 Maze
1 Cephalid
4 Scalding tarn
4 Misty
1 Flooded
2 Volc
2 Trop
3 Tundra
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Island

SB unchanged.

[keys]

Okay so you cast Intuition for 2U, they give you Cephalid. You play it as your land drop (if you can). Dredge next turn for your draw, pay 1G to cast loam on Maze and 2 other lands, if you don't have threshold then wait. If you have threshold, pay U and activate Cephalid to draw 3 and discard the 3 land you loamed. Nets +1 card over 2 turns, with 3UUG invested. Then, if you maintain threshold, +2 card advantage per turn and you pay 1UG.

If the problem before was that the engine was too slow, this might not be much better. Seems okay.

[Shinwei]

I'm a little confused as to how none of these posts in this thread have mentioned testing against Vengevine decks and Merfolk decks. Someone suggested cutting Spell Snare, but that seems like suicide against Vengevine Survival, as both the survival engine and all of their discard outlets cost 2.

I don't mean to derail the thread, but shouldn't the focus of a new Countertop variant be to combat those two new super popular decks in specific? Can a Countertop variant that is good against both Vengevine and Merfolk even exist?

[Valtrix]

I completely agree. This is an issue that I've been running into lately. In my original build I made the board very heavy to beat creature based decks, which actually made merfolk not a bad matchup. Even with their card advantage it makes it very difficult for them to fight through an absurd amount of removal, and it's particularly scary to swing through a goyf post board.

I've realized however the problems against those vengevine survival decks (mostly UG I've played). Though I haven't tested it much, the deck is rough from my experience. For now I'm attempting a solution of 3x peacekeepers in the board, as I think (hope) that I can buy enough time to stick one on the field. Fortunately, peacekeeper functions as a solution to both of those decks. Now, the tricky part is test to see if this will actually be enough. They might evolve to get answers for the card, but in general I've found that the lists do not have a good way to deal with it.

For reference, here is the list I play that has been running very smoothly:

// Lands
2 [IN] Island (2)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [OD] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SHM] Firespout
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [DLM] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [VI] Peacekeeper
SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast

[keys]

The problem is both Madness and Merfolk run Submerge in the sideboard as a way to get rid of Peacekeeper for a turn and alpha strike. Ethersworn Canonist, which also shuts down Vengevine, has the same weakness. The difference between Uwb Dreadstill and most countertop lists is the color green.

Sadly, I don't have any better solutions to Vengevine Survival. As far as I can tell, Pithing Needle, Grip, and Spell Snare/Pierce are the best options we have. That is, until they sideboard into Natural Order.

[Valtrix]

Most lists of UG vengevine survival I've seen haven't been running submerge, at least to my knowledge. Perhaps they've "upgraded" to this method. I know merfolk lists run this, but it's certainly not standard. You have a lot of great things going for you against both of these decks:

1) They stall out until they get the bounce spell. This is a lot of time for you (hopefully), since it's unlikely they're running many bounce spells.
2) They might not even bring in a bounce spell game 1 if they have it, since dealing with goyf is underwhelming for both decks.
3) You play several counterspells((and hopefully a couple REBs from the board too), so in both cases there's a good chance you'll have an answer to their bounce spell, and peacekeeper should give you time to keep it protected hopefully. Also, there's a good chance they might waste spells on stopping firespouts (especially in Merfolk's case)

At least these are my thoughts. It's not as though we can get something that completely answers the decks, but I think that this is very strong.

[ivanpei]

Hence, why I prefer the Loam/Colosseum/maze package. It is compact, allowing you to play an extra 2 spell snares AND an extra counterspell, which help vs survival and other early game bombs. The package is as slow as the shackles/ee/academy/loam/ruins package in generating inevitability, but you get a maze immediately the turn after you intuition. Then a draw engine once you stabilize with the maze + whatever you have in your hand. 3 mana for an immediate removal spell + card advantage engine is IMO a very good investment. You also use very little slots with this combo and can run basics. It is a very risk-free deal.

[Valtrix]

You have the idea completely wrong, I think. First, the package is loam/EE/Ruins. That is all (You put academy and ruins as two things in your list by the way). Shackles is not "part of the package." I just think it's a great card that has an extra application of recursion with ruins. That's all. The point is that it gives you removal ever turn, which most decks can't break out of at no cost to you, since EE, loam, and ruins are all cards you want to play anyway and you sacrifice nothing. Maze and coliseum are questionable inclusions, in my opinion. You may gain some card advantage, but I'm not convinced that it's adding the inevitability that you claim it does. It probably adds inevitability, but I'm not sure you need it after ruins/EE, and is maybe worth running, but I cannot see how you can justify running coliseum before ruins/EE.

I don't understand why you think you can't run basics, because you definitely can...I run 2 island/1 plains/1 forest and that works just fine. Ruins functions as a fine land because it lets you pay all your colorless costs, but you rarely will run into problems with being color-screwed with it.

[DFY889]

Have you considered cycling lands such as in this list: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1603993?

[GGoober]

Vengevine Survival is a scary deck, but remember all's fair in Legacy! So the only way to beat it is prepare for it with sideboard choices.

I was playing against GW Survival who gets out the Vengebeats turn 3. It was really intimidating, but something as simple as a Tormod's Crypt slows their board development. All I'm saying if you want to beat the matchup, there's not much you can do maindeck without diluting your other matchups, but prepare the SB accordingly, GY-hate is most important against them. Extirpate is ideal, but Crypt/Intuition is strong both as an early game (w/o Intuition) and mid-late game (setting up recursion with Intuition).

The way I view the matchup is Vengevine Survival seems to be a slower/more resilient version of Dredge. You beat it by countering discard outlets, or by hating the yard. They're fundamentally slower than Dredge, but more resilient since they have other beaters that you need to deal with. Honestly, I'm more terrified of Dredge than this deck. My friend who played it, and many of our playgroup feel that it's a metagame deck that has succeeded due to its explosiveness and being new to the metagame. It's the same deal as dredge except being more resilient and a little slower, so if you board and play correctly, you should be able to stabilize.

I think the worst matchups control players in general get are: Dredge, burn.

[ivanpei]

Players are giving too much attention to survival IMO. You don't want to solve vengevine, you want to solve survival. The MU is abit like the countertop mirror (but with opposing wastelands). You have so many answers to survival (especially if you play snares and extra counterspells). After board you have 3 grips/2 needles. I would not board in gravehate vs survival vengevine. Even if you have 1 crypt, they can "mini combo" for 2 venges, you wipe them out. The next turn they "mini combo" again for another 2 venges. Either that or they tutor out a pridemage for your crypt, forcing you to pop it. The danger is Survival, not the venges. Preboard, yes they are lightning quick, you play tight, don't tap out and always be ready to counter survival. Recurring venges are not that hard to deal with, swords solves it. Wall of tarmogoyf solves it, if you run maze of ith, that solves it too.

Burn is not difficult for countertop, but impossible for Jacestill. Dredge historically beats most blue decks that are unprepared in the board.

@ DFY889, cycling lands are too slow, as well as clog up your manabase. You don't want CIPT lands in legacy. Coliseum makes blue, works like an island that gives you pain. If I have colliseum in my opening hand, I am perfectly ok with seeing it there. I take up to 2-3 damage off it over the course of the game (its the land i leave untapped for counterspells/ to spin top for balance).

@ Valtrix: I respect your list sir. I agree to disagree. Both are slightly different decks with different advantages.

[egg_power]

Hi there!
I've been reading this thread very closely and I thought I could give my "2 cents" to this discussion showing my list of intuition countertop and my views of this deck.

Main Deck:
1 Academy Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar<---
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog<---
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland <---

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest<---
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare

In the mana base, I've decided to add Bojuka Bog because I think is really awesome in Legacy right now.
You can use firespout to clean the board, using bojuka to decrease the PT of knights and goyfs against zoo, you can remove vengevines and other creatures against survival, excelent vs "grave decks" and adds the 4th color for explosives really usefull to kill elspeth or jaces that you can's deal with.
Lonely Sandbar also works very well with the loam engine providing more dredge effect and gives a nice interaction with counterbalance too.
After testing I realize I was losting too many games against landstill and with wasteland I almost solved the landstill matchup for this deck, it's usefull against manlands, decks with heavy mana and with loam I can lock the mana of my opp agaisnt control decks.
The second EE was a major priority since my opps kill academy ruins and my loam engine, and with the second ee I had 1 more out to the deck against aggro like zoo and tribes.
I really needed a 3rd finisher in the deck...I thought adding a good creature like vendilion clique, eternal witness, frost titan, sphinx or put a spell that couldn't be countered so easily...and then I thought that retrace mecanic could provide a very usefull add to this deck.


Sideboard
1 Wasteland<--I'm not sure about this slot yet the second aruins vs 3rd wasteland against landstill
1 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Llawan Cephalid Empress (it really helps the merfolk matchup)

The only problem in this deck is the real lack of spot removal that other colors like black/white could proveide, like swords or edict and really makes me wonder if the spot removal would be more important than a strong and consistent mana base that I have right now.
Feel free to criticize :)

[Valtrix]

Not that I like bumping threads much, but now that survival is banned I think that this deck is a very strong contender in the meta again. With the right tuning, especially in the board, I think that the deck has the ability to adapt to beat whatever is strong. Now, I'll say it again, but relying on a large variety of weapons makes it difficult for you opponent to attack all angles. Most notably this happens in sideboarding when you often have a lot better tools to bring in than they do, since they have to attack too many areas of your deck.

So, I don't have much in the way of innovation here. I'm very happy with ratchet bomb, as it allows you to work around hate effectively (looking at you pithing needle), as well is a versatile answer for many MUs and is another 2cc. Also, why another counterspell in the board? I think it's much better than the 4th Spell pierce in the mirror, and it's useful to have another hard counter and 2cc spell against combo. However, like I said, not much innovation, but here's the list I'm playing right now and I was curious if anybody else had done any playing/developing in the last while.


// Lands
2 [IN] Island (2)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [OD] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SHM] Firespout
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [DLM] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [6E] Counterspell