Vengevines - worth the investment?

[(nameless one)]

Alright,

As a budget player, I am always about getting the most out of my buck when it comes to Magic.

Is it worth getting Vengevines now or should I wait after its rotation (or Fauna Shaman's rotation)? Would its price go up or go down after rotation/in a long run?

Is Vengevine be the new Tarmogoyf or the next Psychatog?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Unless you're playing the deck, I'd wait.

[Meekrab]

If you're a 'budget' player, why are you even considering buying a $40 creature that's good in one deck? 0_o

[AriLax]

Vengevine is definitely the real deal, but it's price is currently pretty inflated from Type 2. I'm not saying it won't go higher, but now is not the time to buy in for a long term investment.

[(nameless one)]

If you're a 'budget' player, why are you even considering buying a $40 creature that's good in one deck? 0_o

I was contemplating on playing Standard as well, although im still unsure with that.

[majikal]

Worth the investment? If you don't have other staples yet, no. If you do, then go for it. They will be good in Standard as long as they are legal, and they will probably be amazing in Extended for the next four years if you're into that kind of thing. There may come a time when they drop to about $25, but I doubt it will go below that, and they will probably begin to rise steadily after that unless some other Survival shenanigans outclass it in the future.

They actually appear to be cheaper now than they were when the set came out - they are readily had for ~$35 all over eBay.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Vengevine is definitely the real deal, but it's price is currently pretty inflated from Type 2. I'm not saying it won't go higher, but now is not the time to buy in for a long term investment.

I'm with Ari on this one. If you really want to make an investment pick up Tropical Islands and Survivals first. I'd go for the Survivals because that card has jumped from $20 to $40 in recent months.

[Whippoorwill]

I'm with Ari on this one. If you really want to make an investment pick up Tropical Islands and Survivals first. I'd go for the Survivals because that card has jumped from $20 to $40 in recent months.

This would be the best route unless you already have the cards mentioned above. Survival is far from budget though due to the cards that are typically used (Duals, Blue based has FoW, White generally has Retainers). Plus as mentioned, Vengevine is only used in the one deck currently and the others would have much more uses.

Also, I don't think Standard is very budget friendly these days.

tl;dr: As the others said, wait unless you're playing the deck.

[ivanpei]

Like the esteemed posters above have mentioned, Vengevines are played in one deck. The standard influence is still pretty heavy so I'd probably wait until it rotates (that'll take some time though), unless you want to play it straight away in UG madness survival or WG survival. Also, it is unlikely to ever become a "staple", because its not like goyf where you can splash for it/slap it into any deck. It needs to be in a specific deck to be good. I don't think I've ever seen it in any deck other than survival. I'd rather put the money into the other staples first.

[ivanpei]

It was $30 when RGB Survival was decent, then anywhere from $12-20 when Zoo and Merfolk exploded, now $40 with the temporary success of Legacy's most gimmicky deck. When Madness settles into tier 1.5 (when the format adjusts) or 2 (when a nonblack hoser is printed), Survival will be back down to $25-30 and then a stronger buy.

QFT, this made me smile. 2 thumbs up for what I believe is a very sensible post. I mean seriously, turn 1 basking rootwalla? That happens way too often for my liking, even more often than Survival -> venges, alpha strike finish.

[lordofthepit]

Survival is probably a worse buy then Vengevine right now if his top priorities are to 1) buy cards that will retain or increase in value and 2) possibly play Standard.

I'm refraining from buying Survival because 1) I think it's very likely to be banned as a cheap (recurrable) tutor that also serves as an engine, even if it only digs for creatures and 2) it isn't a tier 1 deck without Vengevine or Loyal Retainers, two cards I believe to be overpriced right now. But on its own merits, Survival is a powerful card that isn't horribly overpriced (at least not anymore than Entomb was 6 months ago).

I think it's more likely to retain its value than Vengevine; even though the latter is a strong card, it isn't on the level of Survival. Moreover, a card that has been cracked open many times in a recent set--even as a mythic rare--is much more readily available than one that was printed 12 years ago. I wouldn't be surprised to see it fall considerably after rotation. Consider that Noble Hierarch and Knight of the Reliquary see significantly more play in non-Standard formats than Vengevine, with the Hierarch seeing considerable play in even Vintage, and that they are generally found in multiple archetypes, unlike Vengevine. They are also found in the third set of their respect blocks, which is noticeable for draft purposes, and I believe that the Alara block was drafted less than the Zendikar block. Yet both cards are at barely half their peak value less than 1 week into the rotation.

Granted, Vengevine is a mythic rare, but that shouldn't affect how much the relative price changes (as a percentage of its value). And it may start seeing play in other archetypes, which I find doubtful, as it's a more narrow card than either the Hierarch or Knight. But even allowing that, I don't see what conditions woiuld make Vengevine a good investment to either increase or even retain value in the long term.

[deviant]

I I don't see what conditions woiuld make Vengevine a good investment to either increase or even retain value in the long term.

Rotation of the standard format?

[Nidd]

I guess if Primeval Titans doesn't get banned in T2, Vengevines will drop in price. Titan decks eat Vengevine decks raw and in one chunk.

Just wait a bit.

[deviant]

We don't know the metagame yet, but I'm reasonably sure it won't be just vengevine decks losing to titan decks.

My guess is it won't drop significantly in price before it rotates out of standard. I'd say it's safe to buy them, and then sell shortly afterwards if you get bored to the survideck.

[Valdez]

You can't get bored of SotF-decks.

[cdr]

If Dave Price can get bored of Survival decks, anyone can.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Vengevine actually lost a fair amount of support with rotation (Ranger of Eos, Bloodbraid Elf). It might start dropping in price.

[Nidd]

If Dave Price can get bored of Survival decks, anyone can.
Who the fuck is Dave Price?

[majikal]

Vengevine actually lost a fair amount of support with rotation (Ranger of Eos, Bloodbraid Elf). It might start dropping in price.
It's true that it lost some support, but it also gained some support in Trinket Mage -> Memnite. I think some kind of UGx (Red for Sparkmage probably since you can grab Collar with TM) Fauna deck may be pretty hot. It also gets access to two different on-color fetches, so the manabase would be pretty solid.

[Piceli89]

I wouldn't invest, UG madness is just a deck on a hype that will be absorbed in 2 months, and then disappear as quickly.
Staples are the way to go if you're willing to toss money into cards.

[TheCramp]

Depends on how "2 birds with one stone" you want to be about it. If you have the fauna shamans anyway, and are going to T2 tournaments, it's the kind of card you want to have. The UGb deck that Gavin V. suggested on STGs is better against Titan than other builds. I guess that assumes you have Jaces, Cobras, etc though. I like the vine.

[jrsthethird]

They are also found in the third set of their respect blocks.

Conflux was the 2nd set, not third.


Who the fuck is Dave Price?

lol

[kicks_422]

Build classic UG Madness first, then slowly transform it into UG Survival Madness when the prices start dropping.

On a related note, what's a better investment/buy? 4 Force of Will + 3 Jitte, 4 Entomb + 4 Thoughtseize, or 4 LED + 4 Chrome Mox? I'm trying to figure out which deck to start building from scratch.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Build classic UG Madness first, then slowly transform it into UG Survival Madness when the prices start dropping.

On a related note, what's a better investment/buy? 4 Force of Will + 3 Jitte, 4 Entomb + 4 Thoughtseize, or 4 LED + 4 Chrome Mox? I'm trying to figure out which deck to start building from scratch.

Force of Will is probably the most solid investment out there. The card can still be had for $35 or less if you are willing to hunt for it and will always be one of the strongest and most stable Eternal cards. It will go up and up and up until the day that Wizards reprints it, and if/when that happens it still won't drop much since it will most likely be a Premium card in a box set or GP printed in limited qualities with bad art, see Mox Diamond or GP Jitte.

On a related note Jitte is also pretty solid. It is the best equipment ever outside of Skullclamp and still at a reasonable price even after being this years GP Promo. I think it's a safe buy. The year is almost over and most foil Jittes have been given out already and the price is still steady. It's OP in standard and firmly flavored into Kamigawa block and it was just released as a Premium foil, so the chances of it being reprinted anytime soon are the lowest of any card in Magic by my calculations. This all means Jitte has likely reached it's lowest price at this point and will only go up from here.

Entomb sucks. It's played in one deck that was never very good and is even worse now. I think Entomb is extremely overpriced at $25. You can still get Survivals around $25 on Ebay if you shop around, I wouldn't buy Entomb.

Thoughtsieze is probably not going down. It is being held up a little by Fae in Extended, but by the time that deck rotates they will still be pricey because at that point they are 4 years old and still good in Eternal.

LED is risky. If combo turns sour or gets to strong I feel like LED could be banned or just go down in value. Also if another card from combo gets banned it could effect the price of LEDs.

Chrome Mox same deal as LED but much less risky. At least it's playable outside combo.

Vengevine will go down, it's just a matter of time. I wouldn't buy them now. I opened mine in Zendikar and it was at $40 and I knew it was overpriced and traded them the next day for 4xfetchlands. Now Vines are buzzing around $30 on Ebay and they will never see more play than they are seeing right now. They are in a hot T2 deck and the Legacy flavor of the month. Once either one of those fades out or it rotates out of T2 it will go down. See Knight of the Reliquary, a month ago it was $12 a piece, within the past week playsets can go for $25 on Ebay or even less. I don't think Vengevine will bottom out at $25. Outside of T2 it might see a little play in Extended (which depends heavily on what else is printed in the mean time LOL powercreep) and it goes in Legacy but only decks with Survival. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vines at 10 at some point. I mean T2 has such a huge effect on prices compared to every other format put together.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

You can get LED's for $15-20, just gotta do some serious hunting. Chrome Mox can be had for $10 a pop.

Totally agree with the price of Thoughtseize. It peaked around $22 when it was standard legal. It's around $12-15 now.

Between those, I'd probably pick up a playset of Force of Will first. It seems to be the only one that is remotely close to rising in price.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You can get LED's for $15-20, just gotta do some serious hunting. Chrome Mox can be had for $10 a pop.

Totally agree with the price of Thoughtseize. It peaked around $22 when it was standard legal. It's around $12-15 now.

Between those, I'd probably pick up a playset of Force of Will first. It seems to be the only one that is remotely close to rising in price.

LED's for $15 would be a serious find unless they were beat to hell, I think $20 + S&H is a good price for them that is more realistic as you will never ever get one for $15 on Ebay unless the price drops across the board or it's a serious anomaly like they are listed out of the correct category and misspelled. I bought 4x LED's recently for $80 and didn't think twice about it even though I already had 2. I mean right now on Ebay there is a playset of LED's at $120 with 18 hours left on them. That is a whole different argument though. I'll buy anything if the price is right.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

For cheap cards, the east and west coasts probably not. But for some reason in the midwest, most stores are oblivious to legacy prices.

This usually happens when certain niche old cards don't sell quickly and because of that, prices don't change.

Either way the best way to get cheap Vengevines etc. is to camp Ebay. The way to do this is do view the Newly Listed and Buy It Now at the same time. I find this is the most effective way to get the cheapest cards.

The other day I saw a Buy It Now for 2 Taiga then 2 Savannah. Each auction had a Buy It Now of $50. That's a pretty decent price. Not amazing, but still good.

[dontbiteitholmes]

For cheap cards, the east and west coasts probably not. But for some reason in the midwest, most stores are oblivious to legacy prices.

This usually happens when certain niche old cards don't sell quickly and because of that, prices don't change.

Either way the best way to get cheap Vengevines etc. is to camp Ebay. The way to do this is do view the Newly Listed and Buy It Now at the same time. I find this is the most effective way to get the cheapest cards.

The other day I saw a Buy It Now for 2 Taiga then 2 Savannah. Each auction had a Buy It Now of $50. That's a pretty decent price. Not amazing, but still good.

The problem with that plan is if someone like me walks into a store that has oblivious prices on Legacy stuff they get bought out and it usually takes them a while to restock stuff actually worth buying.

[Tacosnape]

Is it worth getting Vengevines now or should I wait

$160 for the privledge of being able to beat your opponents down for months while going "SEYMOUR!" in your best Levi Stubbs voice and being able to look at people who complain about Vengevine's unfairness and tell them "That's tough titty, kid?" Totally worth it.

[median]

$160 for the privledge of being able to beat your opponents down for months while going "SEYMOUR!" in your best Levi Stubbs voice and being able to look at people who complain about Vengevine's unfairness and tell them "That's tough titty, kid?" Totally worth it.
You should be able to do better than 160. However Theres a playset of foils on ebay for 220, If you're looking at investing $160, it might make sense to go the distance and get foils.

[Muradin]

$160 for the privledge of being able to beat your opponents down for months while going "SEYMOUR!" in your best Levi Stubbs voice and being able to look at people who complain about Vengevine's unfairness and tell them "That's tough titty, kid?" Totally worth it.

exactly this, totally worth it.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Of course this is worth it, but not without all the other stuff you need for the deck. If you don't have Noble Hierarchs, Survivals, Forces, Tropicals, the fetches, Stifles and Wastelands I don't think it's worth it. If I was to get the cards for Vengevine-Survival I'm pretty sure I'd get the Vengevines at last.

[Krieger]

Who the fuck is Dave Price?

He's one of the most influential magic players as far as theory goes. He is the "King of Beatdown" and recently in the last few years he has done a number of things to in ovate legacy building such decks as RGBSA and more recently New Horizons.

Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=David%20Price) are some articles he's written for starcity games.He also Won Pro Tour LA (97-98 season)with his famous Dead Guy Red in tempest block constructed.

[Rune]

It seems pretty unwise to invest in something that doesn't comply with the gentleman's agreement. I personally expect to lose a fuckton of money when the DCI lays down some banhammer justice on Survival.

[Jonathan Alexander]

It seems pretty unwise to invest in something that doesn't comply with the gentleman's agreement. I personally expect to lose a fuckton of money when the DCI lays down some banhammer justice on Survival.

We totally need a like-button on the source. But I still think you're right. That's the reason why I still didn't get my own Lion's Eye Diamonds. They should make some kind of reserved list for not banning cards.

[Nidd]

He's one of the most influential magic players as far as theory goes. He is the "King of Beatdown" and recently in the last few years he has done a number of things to in ovate legacy building such decks as RGBSA and more recently New Horizons.

Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=David%20Price) are some articles he's written for starcity games.He also Won Pro Tour LA (97-98 season)with his famous Dead Guy Red in tempest block constructed.

I know who he is, it was intended to be a joke because someone stated that he can get bored of Survival, which means he can't exist. Survival never gets boring.

[lorddotm]

I would be careful buying Venges. That would mean you are playing with Survival, and if you're at a Star City Games event, thats a lot of deck touchin'. Just sayin'.

[nyoro]

why would you buy vengevine now for investment? just wait until it rotates.

[f|i[p]]

I don't think vengvines will ever go up in price. Instead it will slowly go down. Standard usable cards usually peak in their prices while they are standard playable then slowly go down after rotating out. It is not like other legacy staples like force or dual lands who's prices go up in the long run,hence you can never go wrong with investing in dual lands. So if your asking if they are worth investing on, ask yourself first what kind of investment do you want? If you want to buy them now and sell them later on to be able to earn, I don't think vengvines are a good investement. However if your asking simply investing on it to be able to build a deck around it, it may be worth it for now.

[J.V.]

He's one of the most influential magic players as far as theory goes. He is the "King of Beatdown" and recently in the last few years he has done a number of things to in ovate legacy building such decks as RGBSA and more recently New Horizons.

Here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=David%20Price) are some articles he's written for starcity games.He also Won Pro Tour LA (97-98 season)with his famous Dead Guy Red in tempest block constructed.

I see what you did there, well played Kreiger!

[dontbiteitholmes]

;493495']I don't think vengvines will ever go up in price. Instead it will slowly go down. Standard usable cards usually peak in their prices while they are standard playable then slowly go down after rotating out. It is not like other legacy staples like force or dual lands who's prices go up in the long run,hence you can never go wrong with investing in dual lands. So if your asking if they are worth investing on, ask yourself first what kind of investment do you want? If you want to buy them now and sell them later on to be able to earn, I don't think vengvines are a good investement. However if your asking simply investing on it to be able to build a deck around it, it may be worth it for now.

This sums it all up fairly well. Tarmogoyf has dropped in price because it recently left Ext, which noone even plays. Just imagine what is going to happen to poor Vengevine, Mythic or not. If it was possible to sell short on MTG cards I would be a millionaire many times over. Anyone want to give me $20 now for a Vengevine in 2 years?