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GGoober
10-05-2010, 02:15 PM
Introduction and Control in Legacy
I'm a control player, and walking the roads of control in Legacy has taught me much about the format. I am not the best control player since I still make play mistakes that have more serious repercussion for a control player than a non-control player in the format. However, due to this experience, I have slowly learned the importance on how control elements in a control deck works. It will be a few more years playing control until I have fully grasped its challenges and strategies, yet it won't be a few more years as I test out new variants of control decks and explore viable strategies.

Within a short period of half a year, I've been exposed to testing various forms of control decks:
- UWb Wishstill (and all kinds of UWx Landstill)
- UWr Knappstill (UWr Landstill with Scepter-Chant)
- CAB Jace TM (Control deck running Maze of Ith)
- Countertop.

Unlike decks like New Horizons, Canadian Thresh, and Team America, a control deck is mostly focused on reactively interacting with opponents, and answering critical spells before dropping a victory card. Most would now know that Jace, the Mindsculptor is one of the strongest victory card in 'slow-controllish' cards in Legacy. However, there still exists a number of other viable candidates as victory cards e.g. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Decree of Justice, Mishra's Factory, Tarmogoyf, Thopter Foundry.

Why would you play a control deck that has a victory card that pales in comparison when weighed against stronger victory cards in Legacy? (e.g. Natural Order, Survival of the Fittest, Show and Tell, Tendrils of Agony, Counterbalance). Why would you want to play a deck that risks losing to other decks in the early game? It seems that control decks in Legacy are all about stabilizing before they do anything, is it worth risking to fail to stabilize early game and potentially lose after, or even if you stabilized, run into time and draw instead of winning?

My answer: I play control decks because I enjoy the challenge of stabilizing and playing the reactive role, and I enjoy the comeback and taking the victory by Thwarting your gameplan. I believe that most control players share the same feeling. They enjoy the options the deck gives, granted that the price to pay for this flexibility is a tougher early game. They enjoy watching opposing strategies crumble and win while their opponents have no answers against them.

Elements of a Control Deck
Needless to say, mastering a control-deck is indeed a tough skill, and I can say I'm only 30% on my way to becoming a good control player. I have learned a lot so far in deck design and implementation so I'll share my thoughts on the following elements of a control deck:

Pro-active gameplay
Most decks in Legacy fall under this category. The non-control decks seek to play out threats and put pressure on opposing decks. When two pro-active-based decks play against each other, the aggressor (more aggressive deck) will play pro-actively since that strategy works best for them. A good example is to think of two very aggressive Legacy decks: Goblins v.s. Zoo. In my opinion, the Goblin player is clearly the re-active player while the Zoo player is the pro-active player although the role switches depending on the die roll/board position.

Combo decks are another example of extremum of pro-active decks. Cards like Duress, Orim's Chant while being protection/defensive cards are still being used pro-actively.

Re-active gameplay
Tempo, control decks typically fall under this spectrum. The benefits of the re-active gameplay is to leave yourselves with the best option after deciding what your opponents have played. Tempo decks play re-actively mainly to gain and advantage/tempo and win with that advantage/tempo. Control decks like Landstill play re-actively because they have no other choice by the nature of their deck design where they build their victory cards towards later fundamental turns.

Re-active decks have a big peril: you pay a big price for your decisions. E.g. If you chose to not play a spell X and instead pass the turn hoping to react to your opponent's spell Y and he ends up playing spell Z, you have lost some interaction advantage and therefore limiting your turns and gameplay while your opponent has squeezed spell Z into the game. The biggest challenge for control decks especially is the lack of strong re-active spells such as Daze, Spell Pierce, Stifle. Tempo decks enjoy this rich plethora of re-active spells but a pure control deck usually does not play these spells (maybe they play some Spell Pierces). However, the strategy of the control deck is to make up for the lack of Daze, Stifle and play some pro-active answers to accomodate for this loss e.g. Engineered Explosives.

During the course of a game, a control player will pre-dominantly play the reactive role early game, Counterspelling important threats, Swords to Plowshares EOT on opponent's threats. A tap-out Engineered Explosives can be a reactive play as well in answer to Aether Vial. A distinction between reactive and pro-active use of EE can be made in this example:

Reactive: Dropping EE@1 after opponent resolves a Vial.
Proactive: On the play, drop EE@1 on turn 1 in anticipation of Vial/Lackey.

How would the above benefit the control player and how would it be different? The reactive use of EE signals the threat of a resolved EE, and emphasizes the fact that Vial is a deadly threat to the deck. Why would Vial be deadly against control? It limits interactions for the control player by killing any Counterspells in hand, not to mention having the surprise element of vialing a creature at any time to put unexpected pressure on a control player. Proactively using EE signals the recognition that Vial is indeed a threat for the deck, and that it is the BIGGEST threat against the control deck since setting EE@1 locks my choice for EE to Vial and :1:-permanents. But the act of doing so tells you something about the control players' deck design, and future plans where perhaps he want to keep two-mana open next turn to either Counterspell or blow up the EE. In this scenario, pro-actively resolving EE also affects the opponent's gameplay, and if the opponent is less experienced and does not know how to deal with a proactively resolved EE, it would shift a little advantage to the control player.

In summary, playing a control deck involves weighing the cost of choosing between pro-actively and re-actively strategies, specifically whether you should tap out to play spells like EE, Jace TMS, Standstill, or if you should still keep mana open to react to your opponents or at least hold onto your options before playing them. A good example is the debate on Brainstorming in the early games or saving it for later. In a control deck, I feel the right play is to always conserve Brainstorms unless your hand at that point is irrelevant (a good hand may still be irrelevant depending on what your opponent plays). For a control deck, Brainstorm should always be saved whenever possible since it expands the re-active strategy. For tempo/non-control decks, a pro-active use of Brainstorm strengthens your pro-active gameplays and is more advantageous.


Resources and 20 Life
From experience, a control deck is usually under a lot of resource constraints in the early game. An StP deals with a Goyf, but you only play 4 StPs in a deck while your opponent plays 16+ creatures. You have EE to help, but sometimes you'll draw into a Counterspell and not have any removal. Depending on your hand and opponent's deck, you will sometimes have to choose whether it's worth playing certain cards or to hold back and using your 20 life as a resource to trade for a better play later.

An example include playing against Zoo. They resolve a Wild Nacatl that beats for 3 on turn 2. Do you StP it or hold the StP to save two mana to counter a Goyf? If he ends up playing the Goyf, you could StP the Goyf anyway, so what's the big deal here? The deal is if you are willing to take 3 damage from the cat, you have the option to counter a spell, while using that StP against anything that resolves later on your next turn. If you StPed the cat, you can't counter the next threat and it's probably worse facing a Goyf than a cat. This is a simple example, but many times a control player will be faced with similar, but more complicated examples on resource management and using life as a buffer to stabilize in the early game.

Try to x-1 your opponents as often as you can, and this is the sole reason why Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed are very powerful in control decks. However, to achieve these x-1, you sometimes have to be patient and trade a couple of lifepoints to force them to over-extend while taking out other threats not within the range of EE/Deeds with StP/Counterspells.

A control player's options are much more limited than the aggressor. Re-active gameplay punishes more than pro-active gameplay, so having to re-act and choosing resource wisely breaks the game into a win/loss situation. Thankfully Legacy is a much more forgiving format than Vintage, but even then, I can say that most games I have lost are due to very small wrong decisions made in my reactive strategies.

Interaction advantage
We are coming to the heart of the discussion. There are many categories of advantage e.g. card advantage, board advantage, resource advantage, tempo advantage. However, I feel the most crucial of these is interaction advantage. None of the above advantages are relevant if you cannot interact with your opponent and his cards. E.g. Turn 1 Trinisphere shuts down all interactions from an opponent for at least three turns, and because of this interaction advantage, you are allowed to set up either of card/board/resource advantage in that time-frame to gain a big advantage in the game.

A Dredge playing fighting against Leyline of the Void is another example of limited interaction advantage. Pithing Needle naming Survival of the Fittest shuts down Vengevine Survival's main engine, providing limitation to their interaction advantage. Blood Moon, Back to Basics are all powerful cards that limit interaction advantage. Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top is a very classic example of interaction advantage.

For a more relevant topic, Planeswalkers in control is the control player's choice of interaction advantage. Unlike the above examples mentioned, a Planeswalker does not really shut down any decks per se, but due to the difficulty of dealing with Planeswalkers in Legacy, the Planeswalker will be able to sit there and interact with your opponent's board pieces (creatures usually) and force them to interact with the planeswalker rather than with you. Planeswalkers do what they are supposed to do by WotC's design, forcing the opponent to interact with them just as they are interacting with a 'player from a different plane'). Part of the control deck's strategy is to keep this interaction for as long as possible, since the initial startup costs of resolving a planeswalker is costly (e.g. :2::U::U: for Jace, the Mindsculptor). However the costs for the Planeswalker are usually much worth it for what they do. This is perhaps the heart of the discussion because by diverting your opponent's resources/cards/board to answering both yourself and the newly added Planeswalker, you have created more interaction advantage for yourself on how you choose to strategize with the cards in your hand. Your opponents however have a more limited interaction advantage since they have to divert their interactions to answering the Planeswalker.

And this is where Jace, TMS has found a way into control decks. He has a game-winning ability that HAS to be answered. However, he is very hard to remove since he has an inbuilt defensive ability when coupled with removal/counterspell in a control deck, creates a lot of problems for the opposing deck. Control-decks, IMO, therefore have a pretty boring and indirect way of wining that can be summarized in the following statement:

A control-deck seeks to stabilize in the early game, balancing pro-active/re-active strategies against the aggressor, while seeking to maintain as much interaction advantage as he can. The goal of a control-deck is to eventually reach the point where he can maintain enough interaction advantage (via a Planeswalker or with Scepter etc) such that he is able to pro-actively start winning the game while re-actively control the game state.

Keeping ALL these in mind, I present you

Decklist: The Punisher

Lands: 24

2 Groves of the Burnwillows
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins


Board-control: 13

2 Maze of Ith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Punishing Fire
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth Tiriel/Knight Errant (still testing, KE favored)


Permission: 8

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will


Card-advantage/tutors: 16

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Sideboard: 15

3 Negate
3 Tormod Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Peacekeeper
3 Pithing Needle


SIDEBOARD NOTES:
- Negates/REBs can be imprinted on Scepter.
- 3 Crypt since Intuition adds to finding some crypts. You should be fine against Dredge but Reanimator is a problem, but Negates + Peacekeeper support that matchup
- Peacekeeper: Latest tech from Atog Lord. Surprisingly strong against Merfolks/Vengevine Survival/Emrakul/Progenitus decks. CANNOT BE GRIPPED > can be StPed since you cannot deal with Grip with counterspells
- Pithing Needle: Flex slots but meta-game answer for popularity of Merfolks (Coralhelm, Vial, Mutavault) and Vengevine Survival (Survival), still decent against many other matchups. Could be Meddling Mages instead but he's a creature.



The Punisher was developed after a culmination of thoughts gathered from strategies from UWx Landstill, CAB Jace, and recently an inspiration from the discussion of Punishing Fire from an experimental decklist by Anusien. His deck is an aggro-control deck utilizing the strong synergy of Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows. At first instinct, I felt that the engine belonged more to a control deck rather than an aggro-control beatdown-gro deck. The lifegain for an opponent is irrelevant when you are netting a recurring removal/burn card every time you activate Grove of the Burnwillows. The lifegain is even more irrelevant for a control deck where you concerns are stabilizing the board and game state in the early games.

Anusien made the comment that Punishing Fire beats Merfolks/Gobs and Zoo to some extent. I initially was skeptical, but after further testing, one can see how powerful the card is against such decks. With access to :1::R:, you can take out a single-lord and other 2/2s. Against 3/3 Folks and Zoo creatures, once you have access to :2::R::R: (one of the :R: must come from Grove of the Burnwillows), you can burn out any 4-toughness creatures in the format. That is pretty huge to have a recurring burn that does 1 damage per mana spent at instant speed, and being able to put out 3/4 Goyfs, 3/4 Warmonks, 3/3 Zoo creatures, 3/3 Merfolks and if you couple with some Mishra's Factory that can block, you can potentially take out 5/6 Goyfs without losing too much card disadvantage.

The main strength of Punishing Fire, however, arises from its easy accessibility via Intuition. Intuition fetches Punishing Fire with/without Life from the Loam and Grove of the Burnwillows to set up an engine that has the capability on stabilizing board position by itself.

All in all, the deck should not be viewed as a Punishing Fire control deck. It plays more like a Landstill deck than anything, and the Punishing Fires themselves are added creature removal with/without Grove of the Burnwillows. Take note the heart of the deck is in the above elements of control-decks that I mentioned and a big pillar the deck focuses on is: interaction-advantage. How does the deck achieve big interaction-advantage?

1) Jace, the Mindsculptor and Elspeth, Knight Errant:
These are fairly obvious examples of interaction-advantage as described earlier, but one must note that the interaction is further improved with early-late game inclusions of Maze of Ith supporting the defense of the Planeswalkers. Maze of Ith adds another tool that protects the Planeswalkers, and in fact does the best job by stopping the most powerful attacker swinging into Jace/Elspeth. Elspeth Tiriel is a good choice for the deck but some tweaks have to be made i.e. cut the Scepters because you don't want to lose them in her ultimate but if you can ever Disk with Elspeth Tiriel, you probably already have won the game.

2) Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire:
The synergy is very powerful, and can be viewed as a 'creatureless' approach of using Grim Lavamancer. Combined with Maze, soldier tokens, Mishra's Factory, Punishing Fire can kill relevant 3-4 toughness targets by itself, kill 5-6 toughness targets with the help of Goyf and Maze can buy time until you either get 2 Punishing Fire or 2 Groves of the Burnwillows out. The additional removal helps greatly against Goblins/Merfolks early game and despite the fact that Folks grow fast putting it out of PFire reach, you still have StP and EE to deal with the lords and potentially surprise them.

PFire + Groves engine is also very solid against control-decks, and PFire itself is not dead in the combo matchup.

3) Isochron Scepter + instants:
I have fallen in love with John Knapp's approach on adding Scepters in Landstill. This is a card that I feel is a viable component to control decks. With the slowing down of the post-Mystical tutor format, and blaming Jace, TMS to becoming over-played in aggro-control which also slows down the format, an unanswered turn 2 scepter presents a lot of problem for many decks. I did an analysis on why Scepter is a great card in control and I'll present it here again.

If you're worried that Scepter is a 2-1 when answered, then think of the following possible scenarios:
- You cast Scepter and your opponent Force of Wills it. Then you have reaped 2-1.
- You cast Scepter and your opponent Counterspells/Spell Pierces/Spell Pierces it. Then it's a 1-1. Although note the importance of pro-actively playing scepter and potentially losing some reactive plays (as mentioned in the above sections) may be a little more than a 1-1 since you lost some tempo but the reactive decks will always gain tempo when they counter anything so this is unavoidable for any situation (goyfs/Natural Order etc) and is not a valid argument when analyzing Scepter.
- You cast Scepter and it resolves, you imprint something and it dies before you can activate it (they Krosan Grip or Qasali Pridemage it). Then you are at a 1-2.
- You cast Scepter and it resolves, and you used it once before it's been removed, then you are at a 2-2 at some tempo loss with the initial start up cost of :2: resolving Scepter.
- You cast Scepter and it resolves and you used it more than once before it's been removed, then you reap x-1.

Now, from experience and you can test it yourself and analyze the metagame, there are hardly any decks aside from Bant/Zoo with maindeck Pridemage and Survival deck with Trygon/Pridemage that can pro-actively answer a Scepter. Scepter usually dies to Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deeds, which are not commonly played except EE/Deeds but the latter two are slow, giving you enough time to counterspell/FoW them. Even if they EE/Deeds Scepter, due to the fact that it's slow, you would have at least been in the 2-2 scenario. But from experience, Scepter has always stuck in play and provided up to 3 to x activations before it's been dealt with. And I would always wish my opponents to FoW my Scepter and 2-1 themselves since I can always bring it back later with Academy Ruins.

From an interaction advantage standpoint, Scepter acts as a mini-planeswalker when resolved, providing its benefits and forcing your opponents to deal with it while you diversify your strategies. So I hope you see my philosophy on why it's good in a control deck.

4) Intuition + engine pieces:
Intuition is a very strong card in the Punisher. You can go with a typical EE/Loam/Academy Ruins pile but you have the option to grab 2 Punishing Fire + Loam if you've drawn a Grove of the Burnwillows, or fetch up whatever combination depending if you have Punishing Fire/Loam/Grove/EE/Wasteland/Academy Ruins/Wasteland in your hand.

Originall I was testing Crucible of Worlds over Life from the Loam in the Punisher since up to this point I'm still convinced that Crucible > Loam in control decks since you don't require mana to recur lands (no tapping-out) and you don't lose a card/resource via dredging. A main reason was the concern that UWgr would destabilize the manabase to a large extent. However, realizing that most of the :G: is cast off Groves of the Burnwillows achieved from Intuition piles, it makes no sense that UWgr would be any more unstable than UWr since Groves provides both :G: and :R: mana. If they waste your Groves, you would have lost that engine anyway so deal with it. Intuition Loam piles are in general much faster to grab than Crucible piles.

Over the course of the game, I don't ever think you would need to use Loam more than 2-3 times. You are not an aggro-loam waste/loam deck although you have the option to do so. You are mainly using loam to setup your engines (Groves + PFires, Ruins + EE) and that's it. You can also grab Karakas/Maze of Ith piles when necessary, giving an out to Emrakul/Teeg when needed.

5) Standstill
This is a card that has a lot of myths attached to it. I've tried my best to defend the card and I'll link my post to the topic for more reference, but in the right deck, Standstill is the BEST unconditional draw 3 in the format for just :1::U:. You can argue Predict is less conditional, but it is as much conditional requiring you to design a deck for it and it draws at most 2 cards, perhaps scrying a junk card in the yard.

As far as I'm concerned, when I design a control deck to utilize my draw engine and minimize its conditionality, I expect my draw engine to guarantee me my 3 cards unconditionally. Up to today, I am still playing a strong 4 set of Standstills and my meta has Merfolks/Gobs. I do run into the issue of resolving it, but my deck deals with the board and game state, and when I drop the Standstill I'm recovering back much faster than any other cards.

Aside from the debate on standstill being viable in control decks (I'll link you to my post when I find it), it is interesting to note how Standstill itself provides an interaction advantage in the deck. By dropping a Standstill, you are limiting your opponent's interaction advantage i.e. he can no longer play spells the way he wants to without considering that you are drawing 3 cards. If you played a Standstill while he has a Lord of Atlantis in play, he will probably want to consider not cracking the Standstill at all since he Islandwalks you. Until you draw the Maze of Ith and start amassing resource advantage by making land drops.

The beauty of Standstill in Landstill-control decks is this very principle: it fundamentally slows the game state down, and allows you to sneak lands into play if your opponents do not crack the Standstill. This is what the control deck wants and it highlights my article above on how sometimes you should always be willing to trade life to establish a more solid mid/end-game strategy. For aggro-decks that are happy that they are swinging with a Kird Ape under a Standstill, they will be surprised that you make 3-5 land drops and start freezing the board up with a Factory and more Factories while you start taking the aggression and forcing them to crack the Standstill open. By then you already have 4-6 lands in play with a plethora of answers in your hand and an extra 3 cards. What people fail to realize when dismissing Standstill is that it is not just a card-draw, it does more than that. It shapes the board/interaction advantage to the control player who has built his deck around to best utilize the card.

It does suck when you CANNOT play Standstill but note that you will always have dead cards in given matchups. Vial-decks aren't the best aggro decks to play against, but once you've dealt with Vial, you should have no problems with drawing cards off Standstills. In this deck, the PFire + Groves + Intuition all adds to the fast tutoring/answers to vial-decks. PFires + Groves stalls and holds aggro a little, with the help from StP/Maze/EE. Once you resolve an EE, you are in a much better shape since Vial is no longer limiting your interaction advantage.

2 Maze of Ith has been inspired by CAB Jace TM on the Source N&D. It's a really strong inclusion IMO to control decks. You do not count it towards your land drop, so every time you drew it, it's basically a non-land slot. Granted that it takes a land-drop and slows you down a turn, but the effect of Maze is very powerful by itself and even more powerful with Standstill. I can cast a Standstill under a Goyf with Maze protection following up provided he does not play Wastelands. Paired up with Planeswalker, Maze gives an added boost to the deck, and the fast tutoring with Intuition/Loam makes it a strong inclusion.

You can always board out Maze in the non-aggro (Enchantress/Stax/combo/control) matchups since it does not take a landdrop.


Matchup up analysis will be added later today. I just designed the deck but will be bringing it this weekend, and testing it this week.

GGoober
10-05-2010, 02:16 PM
reserved

Pastorofmuppets
10-05-2010, 02:42 PM
isn't it actually 2RRR to do 4 damage, since you need to pay R to bring grove back from your graveyard?
Anyway, with only 2 Groves, does it not feel like you're just using a 1-less damage Incinerate at times?

gottfrid
10-05-2010, 06:25 PM
No forbid-grove-punishing fire lock? given time, it can be set up only out of only intuition and forbid. Seems stronger that scepter at least.

rockout
10-05-2010, 06:30 PM
Longest intro to a deck I've seen. Reserved for response when I get out of work.

GGoober
10-05-2010, 07:12 PM
@pastorofmuppets: yes its 2RRR I typed wrong, will change it when I get back home later.

2 damage burn from Fires is indeed <<< Bolt spells but the fact that you can re-use them, gives a control deck the added resource needed. A lot of times, I realized that control decks run into a state where you stabilized the board but both you and the opponents are top-decking. In situations where your opponents draw a business spell and you have no answer or draw that counter a turn later (happens all the time doesnt it?!), you will wish you have some form of resource to fall back under.

It's the same reason why I feel scepter/Planeswalker are strong in control decks. Gottfrid, I'm not sold on Scepter, and I thought about Forbid. Basically the Scepter slot is a flex slot, Forbid/Wish/more Intuition/EE can fit that slot, but for now, I've been happy with Scepters. 14 imprintable instants is a little on the low-side. 16 would be ideal but all my lists have ran 14, and once in a blue moon I have issues on just drawing a Scepter.

But Loam/Forbid/PFires is a great synergy that I should look into. I'm just never a fan of Forbid locks, seems a little too costly.

jafar
10-06-2010, 06:59 AM
Good and interesting intro.

Just an idea: why don't playing a single tolaria west? Can fetch for utility/mana lands and EE even under standstill.

Bye

GGoober
10-06-2010, 11:38 AM
Hi all,

Did some limited testing and there were definitely a number of issues with the deck currently:

1) 2 Basic lands seem fragile for a control deck. I'm used to 4 basics but I doubt there's anyway I can play with 4 basics without cutting PFire+Groves engine. However looking at most UGb Landstill and successful lists, it seems that 2 basics is good enough provided you run Loam/Crucible

2) Life from the Loam in testing has been weak. The card itself is not weak but the manabase cannot support it at the moment. Testing revealed that multiple red sources are needed to support PFires if you plan on burning 4 toughness creatures. However, with a focus on R in the deck, it becomes hard to fit in G for Loam. The main issue is that you usually set up PFires + Groves with Intuition grabbing PFires + Groves + Loam, but currently, it is hard to squeeze in G while maintaining a UW manabase for Counterspell (UU) and setting up (WW) for Elspeth.

To support Intuition->Loam/PFires/Groves, additional green sources is needed and I was not satisfied by the tight constraints on colors e.g. running Taiga helps the deck but that makes the manabase weak since G is only used for Loam. I have replaced the 1 Loam with 2 Crucibles cutting the 3rd Jace and it's working better. Crucible also doesn't waste resources via dredging and requires no mana to maintain landdrops, which is important when you're conserving mana for PFires/EOT Intuitions.

3) Deckspace is very tight. I always feel that I want room for the 3rd Intuition and 3rd PFires. There are two directions that I can go: Cut Scepter or cut maze, or cut Elspeth. Currently, I'm cutting the 2nd Maze (weakening superstandstills a little) and the 3rd Jace and my final list configuration for yesterday was:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Punishing Fires
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Island (2nd Island could be Karakas)
1 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

1 Maze of Ith
3 EE
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Punishing Fires
2 Elspeth KE/Tiriel

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Scepter
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Intuition
2 Jace

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell


Interesting observations with the deck from limited testing yesterday:

1) PFires blows aggro when the engine is up. It definitely kills x/2 P/T creatures, but it is a recurring card that hits bigger creatures as well in the mid-game with enough R sources. I feel the engine is an inbuilt Scepter-Fire//Ice (no icing on the cake though) when active. I feel that in the control mirror, it would be as strong as it is against aggro.

2) StP + PFires has some good synergy even without Groves. This came up quite often and is one way to return PFires. StP + Scepter is simply the best answer against aggro AFAIK when answered and pairing with PFires is an added bonus.

3) It was annoying in my testing I drew Intuition 1-2 times out of 10 games. I felt that I needed the 3rd Intuition more than the 3rd Jace although I could be wrong. I could potentially cut Elspeth entirely in the above list and go -2 Elspeth, +4th EE, +3rd Jace, which would allow me to cut down on my Tundras and up the red-count. The 4th EE would mean more in non-aggro matchups anyway, and the MD is quite solid to handle most aggro decks even without Elspeth although winning in time might be an issue since you need to stabilize the board before you can PFires your opponent out.

4) Crucible > Loam so sadly no more cool Loam + Forbid/Tolaria West interactions. I would love to fit Loam in but if you can fit me the G sources outside of Groves of the Burnwillows, please instruct and advise me on this.

5) Scepter all the way, a pity I can't fit in 2 Chants. But Scepter is just that good even without Chants. StP/Counterspell on Scepter gives quite the inevitability for opponents.

6) Would Ajani Vengeant > Elspeth in this deck? Helix could be stabilizing and give further reach. Any non-Jace Planeswalker is inevitably going to be slow against combo, so I'm considering other options for the non-Jace Planeswalkers. I feel that token generation is still needed against aggro as a saftey strategy and win/condition

7) Elspeth KE wins much faster than Tiriel. I was a little displeased with Tiriel with her being at 2 Loyalty after using the -2, but over 2 turns, she gave me a board of 5-7 tokens and netting 5 life a turn. Dropping the 2nd Tiriel after killing your first tiriel with the -2 and pumping the 2nd one +2 setting up with a Disk with 9 tokens and gaining 9 life was pretty funny.

8) There is still not enough card draw and there never will be enough for a control deck :(

JamieW89
10-06-2010, 05:44 PM
Nice idea, will give the engine a test.

Anusien
10-07-2010, 11:44 AM
Two thoughts:
1) I think you have too many late-game cards. If you assume that Punishing Fires can win every game that goes long, you realize the big problem is beating faster decks. You're going to have problems putting a clock on combo or beating the fast Vengevine starts, and a deck full of 4-drop Planeswalkers doesn't fix that.
2) CB seems like a wrecking ball. It can easily shut you down. For that and the Survival reason, I'd look into changing Counterspell into Spell Snare.

My conclusion was clock-clock-clock. I think you need to push further into that direction. I don't think you can ever beat combo with this build.

GGoober
10-07-2010, 03:01 PM
Hey Anusien thanks for the critiques, points taken definitely

1) This echoes a little close to landstill lists, so 'too many late-game cards' is unavoidable. It is almost a carbon copy of UWr Landstill except playing 3 Intuitions, 2 Groves over 3 flex slots (Spell Snare/Path/Humility). I'll put a sample UWr list and a common UWb list that most people play as a Landstill shell:

UWg Landstill (wafo-tapa)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35640

UWr Knappstil
Business (36)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Orim’s Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Isochron Scepter

Business (24)
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Plains

My list follows very closely to Knappstill, having played the list for over 2 months and finding it powerful. The PFires take the slot of Fire//Ice, and I play 3 Intuitions over the 2 Chants/1 Path. Granted, I do agree the combo matchup is weak game 1 with the loss of 2 chants, but postboard, 3 Negates add a little resilience against combo. So far, I have been 'lucky' against combo in my meta. I've won all the matches I've been paired agaisnt, and perhaps I'm lucky I just draw my FoW, Counterspell/Negates in time and lock the game out with Scepter+Negate/Counterspell.

The deck, like landstill, is a slow deck, and has risks running to time when paired up against long-matchups e.g. Aggro Loam/Enchantress. Against aggro games usually don't take too long unless you are in a 1-1 situation every turn. I have been trying my best to speed Landstill up but the only viable way is to go the Speedstill approach (developed a year ago) or to play with Decrees which I'm still debating since it pairs very strong with Elspeth 2.0.

2) This is a false statement. Counterbalance decks are a bad thing when it resolves but Landstill has never found CB matchups to be hard at all. An EE easily blows out their engine since you can sink 3-6 mana with your lands to set it at 2. The only real problems that landstill face against CB decks are the Natural-Order versions, and it's not really CB that blows the deck away, it's the Progenitus that kills you. On the landstill thread some pages back, I jokingly mentioned how does one correct someone who has the myth that "CB decks are the best decks in Legacy and CB beats Landstill?" and a forum-mate replied: "Just let them feel that CB beats Landstill and you own them everytime they bring it to your local tournaments". The story is simply:

CB decks usually don't run much threats. Unless you're facing Dreadstill/NO-CB, you have an easy game blowing them away since they have no fast and dangerous clock on you (compare other more difficult matchups like Burn/Merfolks/Gobs), therefore you are never in a rushed position and don't really need to stabilize against anything. Once you draw an EE, you blow them out unless they FoW, to which you have your own FoWs. If they do successful uncounterbalance counterspelled your EE, you have more EEs and Ruins to continue answering the enchantment. Dreadstill + NO-CB is a different story because if they resolve NO/Dreadnought with CB out, you are going to have troubles since now there's pressure on the board (and a very big pressure usually)

I'll change counterspell to Snares if I decide to drop Scepters. That would be a no-brainer in today's Survival-ish metagame. However, with Scepters, Counterspell is the obvious choice. It'll take a lot of convincing for me to drop Scepters since both myself and my playgroup have recognized the power of the card, and many people now fear it. Granted Scepter is not a good card in a blazing fast matchup e.g. I get owned pretty hard when I draw a hand of Scepter + counterspell/StP against Boros Kiln Fiend where the Scepter could have been a Spell Snare and speed up the deck by an entire turn.

If I wanted to beat combo, it'll have to be sideboard cards. Landstill doesn't have a good combo matchup game 1 in the first place, which was the reason why I found Knappstill very strong. The Chants are additional disruptions against combo game 1. I'm trying to squeeze 2 Chants in the maindeck but I find it hard without cutting the 3rd Intuition and another card (Maze? going mazeless?).

One thing I wanted to point out to avoid confusion. The deck plays like UWr Landstill. It is not bent on getting the Groves+PFires combo. You use PFire early game just as you would with Fire to burn creatures (Hierarch,pridemages,merfolks, etc) and play like a landstill deck i.e. counterspell, EOT StP (although now you have the option of returning PFire with StP if you have a red open), EE, Standstill. It is when you reach the mid-game where the initial Fire//Ice was a one-time use, you now have the option of re-using Pfires if you drew Grove. In some ways, PFire+Groves acts like Fire on Scepter. This added resource in the mid-game where your card-pool is diminishing as you answer opposing threats is what keeps the deck surviving, until you drop Jace/Elspeth and win.

Anusien
10-07-2010, 06:17 PM
It's obvious that you're purposefully imitating Landstill. You don't need to post decklists for that. The problem is that I'm pretty sure imitating Landstill is a bad idea. Despite what you think, the CB matchup isn't wonderful, and it's largely in the hands of the CB deck to win. The combo matchup is atrocious, and I don't think you're gonna be ahead against Survival. Punishing Fires/Grove is a powerful combination, but it's exceedingly slow. You want to put it in a fast deck to give it endgame, not to put it in an already slow deck.

GGoober
10-22-2010, 02:14 PM
New update to the decklist. I incorporated the CBTop engine as much as I would like to avoid playing with it. Landstill's ever bad matchups include:

- Fast game 1 combo (post board Landstill still has trouble against the speed of combo)
- Burn decks, RW, RG burn-based decks, and to some extent Zoo's burn reach (I have stabilized against Zoo 80+% of the time but the stabilization never succeeds when they just finish off with more burns than spells I can counter)
- Enchantress decks to some extent.

After re-evaluating previous Landstill builds, CBTop builds and other control variants (e.g. Hanni's UW planeswalkers) I felt that CBTop is needed critically, especially in the Punisher (which is a modified version of Landstill to include 7 slots of PFires/Groves), i.e. having a different strategy than traditional Landstill/CBTop.

I'll post a quick update to the list, and make brief notes but I'm out-of-town but would like to hear feedback + discussions for improvements. I'll work on updating the OP if there are any big changes to be made/discussed upon.

Here's the list:

1cmc spells: 11
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Ploshares

2cmc spells: 13
4 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
3 Counterspell
3 Punishing Fire

3cmc spells: 5
2 Crucible
2 Decree of Justice
1 Forbid/Cunning Wish/Decree of Justice (would like to have 2 of these slots, but can't cut anymore 2cmc slots, but can't cut 1cmc slot either

4cmc spells:
2 Jace 2.0

6cmc spells:
4 Force of Will
2 Elspeth 2.0

Lands: 24
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Fctory
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcnic Island
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Groves of the Burnwillows

SB: 15
2 Relic
2 Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Peacekeper
3 Firespout
2 Flex Slots (Pithing Needle/Disenchant/Krosan Grips)


Advantages in the above list over traditional Landstill:
- Stronger Zoo matchup with CBTop locking out burn spells where traditional landstill still has problems stabilizing against burn.
- Lack of EE is a problem but is compensated with a faster buildup into 4cmc spells e.g. with Crucible/Decree.
- Elspeth 1.0 > Elspeth 2.0 so that is a tradeoff but the extension of PFire's mid-game burn-reach on non-KotR creatures gives the deck a strong stabilization position before CBTop comes in to lock the game out

- Stronger tribal matchup: PFires/Groves is strong against Folks/Gobs. Loss of EE to deal with Vial is quite a big problem, not sure if I'm sold on cutting all the EEs in the list. But the deck is focused mainly on stabilizing, ramping up to a Decree/Elspeth 2.0/Jace 2.0 and pinging off any other creatures with PFires.

- Much stronger combo matchup: 3 Counterspell + 4 Counterbalance+ 4 Fow + (3 Pierce in the board) makes you have a much better win % than regular Landstill


Disadvantages in the above list over traditional Landstill:
- Loss of EE :( That's why Elspeth 2.0 is more relvant than 1.0 to catch any troublesome permanents that have slipped past. Another option is to play 2 Cunning Wish MD probably (1 Crucible, 2 Cunning Wish, 2 Decree of Justice with a wishboard of EE/Krosan Grip/Forbid etc)
- Loss of EE => weaker Stax/Stompy matchup/Vial matchup which I'm not too concerned. PFires will still give a good chance against Vial decks, Stax/Stompy decks don't kill you fast enough and EE might still be locked out against these decks. Enchantress matchup is slightly weaker without EE but since they have a slow fundamental clock, you can just stall until you get out E2.0 and win from there.

Style of playing the deck is similar like landstill: survive, stabilize, win, the new list has added means to achieve those than previous lists:
- Countertop Lock is an option: I don't really go all out on this. Notice 3 SDT over 4 BS. People who think that 4/4 split is necessary for any CTop shell go ahead and scream at this, but I take my believes in cardslots based on redundancy and the overall strategy of the deck. In this deck, Countertop is not the main goal of the deck. IT provides an additional way to stabilize, but the deck is fine without out. In fact, Countertop lock is mainly used to draw time, and bait opponents into playing around it, therefore slowing down the overall speed against fast decks. At the same time, CTop provides the same benefits as you would get from setting it up. It definitely helps in the weak matchups, which is a reason why it is still important, but this is not a deck seeking to establish Countertop lock unless the matchup specifically requires it to do so in order to win. For reference, Atog Lord's UBw Dreadstill ran 3 Top, 3 Counterbalance and he explains why he does so. Landstill is a deck with great digging power, so is the Punisher. Having the 4th top, and argubly the 4th Counterbalance is a redudant and wasted card slot, especially when the deck doesn't need to win off the back on Countertop.

- Dominate aggro with PFires + Groves, while creating more things they have to answer against e.g. Recurring Factories, Countertop lock, Jace 2.0, Elspeth 2.0 in play. You want to control the board with PFires whenever you can, StP the ones that have 5 or more toughness (don't forget StP + PFires works outside of Groves!). The additional resource advantage you gain from recurring PFires (even without Groves) is invaluable for a control deck

- Establish board dominance: This is done with PFires/Groves against most of aggro's creatures, Getting a CBTop lock out, Getting a Forbid lock with Crucible/Pfires, getting a Decree - > Elspeth 2.0 or just resolving Elspeth 2.0 protected to reset the board in your position.

Anyway have to go, will be back 2 days from now but any discussion/thoughts are welcome. In particular, I'm worried about the 2cmc card-support for CB. Is 13 enough? I'm not going for a 'hard'-lock and remember that the deck has a lot more digging power (Crucible + Fetch), more card draw (Standstills) so 13 might function as 14-15 in a traditional Coutnertop deck.

Other issues to discuss: Drop Decree + Elspeth 2.0 for other spells? (Intuition/Forbid/Cunning Wish/EE/Elspeth 1.0)? But take note on the strategy discussed above to understand why Elspeth 2.0 is potent in this deck, especially in a deck that has a delaying tactic aka making land drops more solidly and building up inevitability. I think the change that I want to make most is to play 2 Cunning Wish over Forbid + 2nd Crucible, allowing me to wish for (Etutor, Pulse, Forbid, 4thPfires in the SB maybe?, Dismantling blow etc etc).

Thanks and have a fun weekend!

GGoober
10-29-2010, 12:30 PM
Taking this list for the weekend, I think I've tweaked as much as I can and it seems quite the improvement from previous iterations:

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Groves of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

xcmc: 1
1 EE

1cmc: 11
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 StP

2cmc: 12
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Punishing Fire
3 Standstill

3cmc: 6
2 Firespout
2 Intuition
2 Crucible of Worlds

4cmc: 4
2 Jace 2.0
2 Elspeth 1.0

5cmc: 5
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 EE
3 Spell Pierce
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ray of Revelation


61-card list (23rd land as the 61st card, could probably cut the 3rd basic island and streamline to 60cards). Cardinal sin to run non-60 lists, but this has always seemed to work out better for me. Really want to fit the 3rd Firespout and 4th Top, but want to keep 2 Intuitions as well (Intuition is the slot to cut IMO) since I still want an out with EE against enchantments/artifacts/creatures that slipped past permission, and Intuition grabs up Crucible engines, Ruin/EE engine, and Pfire/Grove engine efficiently if you have just one of either engine card in hand/play.

Good MD matchups (highlighting the most relevant cards for the matchups)
- Gobs/Merfolks: 3 Punishing Fire + 2 Firespout + 4 StP + (Intuition/EE lock mid-game)
Strong tribal matchup. Merfolks is the only tricky one if they chain Standstills. Lack of Wastelands in this build is going to weaken the matchup but you win off a sweeper or an inevitable engine they cannot deal with. Even without Groves, you can still get some extra uses out of PFires with StP triggering PFires. SB 1 EE + (3 Peacekeeper against Merfolks) and maybe some +2 Pithing Needle/Spell Pierce if on the play (against turn 1 vial)

- Countertop/Landstill/control decks: 2 Crucible of Worlds + 4 Planeswalkers + 3 Punishing Fires + (Countertop softlock)
Matchup is determined by resolving Crucible or Planeswalker. PFires against non-Countertop deck seals games, against Countertop, their goyfs are not going to beat into your creature removal package and Elspeth + Jace > Jace. SB 3 Spell-pierce + 2 Pithing Needle


Decent/Challenging MD matchups:
- Zoo: 3 Punishing Fire + 2 Firespout + 4 StP + (Countertop softlock)
Loss of 3MD EE might make the matchup tougher, but you gain the Countertop package. Problems with control decks against Zoo is usually not against creatures. With the above creature removal package, you can stabilize usually against their beaters, but it's the burn that kills you after stabilizing, countertop solves the problem to some extent. Countertop definitely improves the matchup compared to traditional landstill decks though. SB improves the matchup greatly with 3 Relic (PFires can now kill Goyfs and Knights). Postboard puts this at a Good matchup.

- New Horizons/Aggro-Loam: 4 StP + 2 Elspeth + 2 Jace + (Countertop softlock)
Not a great matchup. Their creatures are big and only StP deals with it, Elspeth/Jace will buy time and each win games if they don't have answers. SB improves greatly with 3 Relic + 1 Crypt + 1 EE.
Postsideboard puts it on a Good Matchup.

- Enchantress: 1 EE + 2 Jace + 3 Firespout (Argothians) + 3 Counterpackage + (Countertop softlock)
This will be somewhat challenging pre-board. They usually have more nuts against you. Not having 3EE is a big loss against this deck since EE is huge against Enchantress' board. SB: 2 Ray (4 disenchants!) + 3 Spell Pierce + 1 EE + 2-3 Relic + (2 Pithing Needle if you want to neuter Sterling Groves/Words of War) puts it in a Good Matchup.

- Combo: 3 Counterbalance + 3 Counterspell + 4 FoW + (3 Standstill)
A somewhat better matchup than regular Landstill with 3 Snares + 3 Counterspell + 4 FoW. SB 3 Spell Pierce makes the permission much more presentable against combo while you assemble Countertop. Postsideboard puts it on a Good/Challenging Matchup


Bad Matchup:

- Vengevival: 4 StP + Counterpackage + 3 Punishing Fire
Preboard the matchup isn't great. You don't have the 3EEs to potentially stop their Survivals, PFires will hit manabirds to slow them down, but ultimately, you have to resolve Countertop asap and play carefully to keep Survival off. After that hook planeswalkers online and it should be fine. StP on VV if Survival resolves because it's the VV that kills you, not the mongrels/moebas.
Postboard: 2 Ray + 3 Relic + 1 Crypt (Intuitionable) + 2 Pithing Needle + (maybe 3 Peacekeeper) puts this on a Good Matchup

- NOgenitus/Emrakul Counterpackage + 2 Jace
Not much you can do until you bring in the sideboard. Your only chance game 1 is heavy permission and setting up Counterbalance. SB bring in: 3 Peacekeeper + 3 Spell Pierce and focus on protecting Peacekeeper against any removal. If they don't run Wipe Away, you're in good shape to slow roll and win. Postsideboard puts this on a Challenging Matchup.

Hope this looks good and I'll let you guys know how it works out this weekend. From testing, I've been pleased with it. SDT has definitely made early-game stronger. Pfires are usually used as a Fire//Ice to hit smaller creatures before they start coming back to seal up the games. What this deck does is to enter an attrition battle, exchange permission for spells, removal for creatures, hopefully catch 1-3 creatures with a spout, resolve Planeswalker when the coast is clear, setup Countertop softlock (this is not an all-out Countertop deck that depends on Countertop), and when the mid-game arrives, Crucible + SDT + fetch puts you way ahead of your opponent as your planeswalker starts accumulating Loyalties, your PFires start coming back, and in less than 2-3 turns after stabilizing, your hand is full of cards (combination of Crucible/SDT + Pfires recursion + Standstills). I realy want to fit the 3rd Spout in. What should I cut???

HurpDurpification
10-29-2010, 07:05 PM
What about Solitary Confinement?

the Grove combo can stall a bit until you get one, then it feeds it.....with 2 fires or groves it wins the game....

The Treefolk Master
11-02-2010, 09:43 AM
Taking this list for the weekend, I think I've tweaked as much as I can and it seems quite the improvement from previous iterations:
??


How did the tournament go?

GGoober
11-02-2010, 11:56 AM
@Hurpdurp: Solitary Confinement seems solid, but I doubt I'll be playing it since it requires 2 cards to setup. It's great believe me but I feel that most of the time in the control role, I want to avoid such cards. I've even cut down on Humility, a card which I believed I will never cut in Landstill lists, because I fear the risks of Grips post-SB. Cards like Humility + Solitary Confinement are powerful but they force you to play in a "I'm protected game-state" and if your MD is not accommodated to deal with "what-happens if they grip it I lose" situation, it's bad. I find myself not needing Humility (except against aggro-loam) to buy time. Cards like Solitary Confinement and Humility are not solutions, they buy time to grab solutions, but in order to play them, you need more sweepers, more answers, which would involve me changing the MD to some extent, and more importantly, the mentality and playstyle. I think it's definitely worth exploring because the synergy is quite strong (but fragile I think, Grip hits it, Wasteland on Groves)


I made Top2, but a small tournament so it's not representative of what the deck is capable of, but I did gather some thoughts which I will post here. I decided that this is just a personal experimental list that I will be testing for certain metas. In general, I think it is a good control deck against an unknown meta, given that the current meta is Survival-heavy, this deck may not shine, and we know that to win with control decks, you should never fall into the mentality of playing a "pet-deck", rather you need to play a meta-game deck. Regardless, PFires can still hit Noble Hierarchs, Pridemages so it has some applications against such Survival builds. However, it does nothing against the inevitability of Survival engine, so that has to be answered in the SB (Pithing Needle, Ray of Revelation, more EEs).




Brief matchups:

Round 1: bye

Round 2: Gobs win. Had a hand of 1 PFires + 1 StP + 1 Firespout. He led with Lackey, Firespout did not even mattered in this matchup. PFires was in full control of the game all the time.

Round 3: TES 1-2. Duress/Chant is quite brutal, didn't get Countertop online much.

Round 4: Aggro Loam. Game 1 he rofl stomped me. Chalice @1, Chalice @0, then wasteland keeping my colorless lands in check so I can never EE@0 with double colorless. I don't think you can do much with that kind of lock.. Game 2, we went to an inevitable game of Stronghold/creature recursion v.s. Ruins/EE recursion. Obviously I lost since I was never seeing more than the same card beneath my library, and to advance the game state, I am forced to take some damage to use Top to crack down further and seeing nothing (he had Chalice@1 too so I can't replay top). Never saw my relics nor Counterbalance for this matchup. IT's still a bad matchup, but theoretically and maybe practically should be improved with Countertop locking them out, but he has grips so probably still bad. Aggro Loam is one of those decks that I hate so much, but have tremendous respect because it's underplayed and a very solid deck.

Top 4: TES (same player). Game 1 I won after dropping Counterbalance and Standstill beating him with Factory to 2 life and he went off. I had double FoW and Counterspell in hand, but he played great, using the stack in response to my Brainstorms to chain rituals, at that point, he had to win with Tendrils in hand and had to resolve dark ritual, but I burned out of my permissions suite, and so does he as it seemed, blind flip Top FTW countering all his 1 mana spells on the stack. Game 2 I choked the board with a scary Counterbalance + Top + Crucible + Fetchland + Jace, allowing me to dig way too much and dig 6 cards with Top every turn against his spells.

All in all, my thoughts with the list I played:

Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Groves of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

xcmc: 1
1 EE

1cmc: 11
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 StP

2cmc: 12
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Punishing Fire
3 Standstill

3cmc: 6
2 Firespout
2 Intuition
2 Crucible of Worlds

4cmc: 4
2 Jace 2.0
2 Elspeth 1.0

5cmc: 5
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 EE
3 Spell Pierce
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ray of Revelation


I think the biggest improvement made is to take off 2 Firespout. It doesn't do too much against Goyf/Knights without secondary help (relic/StP/PFires) and it's win-more against Gobs/Merfolks since PFires does the job better (setting up inevitability where they simply cannot win without Vial tricks amassing an army).

For the 2 Firespout slots, I'm debating on +2 EE, or +2 Spell Snare. I think the ideal list that I will be testing next is:
-2 Firespout
-2 Intuition
+2 Cunning Wish
+1 EE
+1 Top/Counterbalance

Sometimes I do want to see Counterbalance out fast asap, running 3 doesn't help that but most of the times, I never really 'desired' it, since I knew it's only a softlock that buys time/cards and is fragile postboard, so I'm sticking with 3. Top on the other hand can't really be removed and if they gripped it that's cool because multiple Tops will blow anyway later on. With 2 Cunning Wish, I can put the Intuiiton in the SB and streamline the MD a little. Intuition was very powerful. It was always countered when I had Academy Ruins/Crucible in play, but sometimes I feel it's a win-more card. It did allow me to go EOT -> 3 Counterbalance against combo and seal the game up so I think in the SB it's good for an overall matchup, aka I'll board Intuition in against matchups that need it to setup engines faster, rather than wishing into it. With 2 Cunning Wish, I might put a Forbid and the 4th PFires in the SB and maybe up the Groves count to 3. I'm happy with 2, but without Intuition, 3 maybe the right call. It's a terribad land early game so I don't want to run 4, you don't want the engine out on turn 2 anyway, just get it around turns 4-5 where it matters in stabilizing.

Just my thoughts. Personally I enjoy the list a lot. I felt less helpless against Merfolks and combo compared to regular landstill, especially combo since I feel that just 3 Counterspell/Pierce/Snares/4FoW can't deal with the Chants/Duress and SB REBs they pack. Counterbalance is what's needed. I also did some other testing, against CABJace variant and BW DarkDepths that my friend plays. PFires is quite brutal card-advantage against both non-Goyf/KotR aggro and control decks. I think with Relics in the SB, and more EEs MD with the changes, I should improve those big-beats matchup to some extent. With Wish I can grab Pulse and maybe play 1 Grip 1 Ray split instead of 2 Rays. I've been playing Wish forever in Landstill, but sometimes I find it slow, but rethinking, most of the time Wish has done me more good. I'm just uneasy with the Survival-era meta, but I think it calls for faster solutions aka Ray of Revelation >> Grip against Survival. These changes are very meta-specific (lack of Counterbalance, rise of Survival makes Ray more effective in the meta, also it's 2cmc and is easier to cast against Moon and other enchantments, beats Enchantress much better as well).


EDIT:
Posting a list for next week to avoid bumping thread:

Removal: 10
3 EE
4 StP
3 Punishing Fire

Card draw/cantrips: 12
3 Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

Permission: 10
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 FoW

Others: 6
1 Crucible
1 Humility
2 Jace
2 Elspeth


23 Lands:
2 Tarns
4 Strands
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Groves
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic
3 Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins


SB: 15
1 Intuition
2 Negate
1 Pulse
1 Path
1 Etutor
3 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Ray of Revelation (flex slot)
1 Forbid (flex slot)
3 Peacekeeper (flex slot)