Should Wizards unban Mystical Tutor now? What do you guys think?

[vikram]

Wizards does listen to players especially if you send them a well thought out email.

I've had Wizards reply to multiple emails I've sent over the years, and much of what I emailed them regarding eventually came true (splitting the vintage and legacy lists, unbanning grim monolith and metalworker, making portal cards legal etc).

I'm curious to hear how the community feels about the Mystical Tutor ban now.

The meta has evolved a decent bit since the ban. Decks like Madness have gotten much stronger. Meanwhile, the two decks effected by the ban B/U Reanimator and Ad-N Tendrils completely disappeared from the metagame. The ban effectively killed both decks.

Do you think those decks in their pre-ban form would dominate the current faster legacy format? Or do you think they will be kept in check by the explosion of aggro control decks that occured in the past few months? Are those decks really overpowered, or would they simply just be two more competitive decks today if MT is unbanned.

Does Mystical Tutor deserve to be banned while Enlightened Tutor and Personal Tutor remain legal?


If you have strong feeling about this either way, email wizards about it now.

Yes, back when the ban was fresh, wizards likely ignored all emails waiting instead to see for themselves what would happen. Now that this has passed, wizards will listen to and respond to well thought out emails on the subject of Mystical Tutor.

[Cabal_chan]

Wizards does listen to players especially if you send them a well thought out email.

You, good sir, must have the touch of Midas.

In all seriousness, unsure. I'd like to see it unbanned, given that I think the reasons for its banning were utterly bogus. At the same time, the current meta is still settling, and another change would toss things into another state of flux.

There would also be the regular suspects crying about how Tendrils and FoW are warping the format(even with Tendrils Storm having been hit with Mystical's banning).

Give it 3-6 months still.

[vikram]

If you can, please explain your vote and the reasons you feel the way you do.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No.

First off Mystical Tutor is much, much, better than E. Tutor or Personal Tutor. For E. Tutor, 99% of decks run removal for anything you can get with it and Personal Tutor only gets Sorcs and is Sorc speed itself, making it about 1/4 to 1/3 the power level of M tutor. Whatever you get with M. Tutor can usually only be answered by decks with counterspells.

Second, M Tutor lets combo play an unfair sideboard. First off, M Tutor alone is really really good in the MD. It gets whatever you need to win EOT at any time. Then post board you can run an answer to everything since having 1x of it in SB is like having 5x with Tutor. So EOT tutor for whatever answer you need or wincon if you don't need one, next turn answer relevant card every time and proceed to win. Decks without counters have almost no chance against combo without giving up a retarded amount of SB space to hate, while combo with Mystical can devote 1x answer to every relevant card and get them basically whenever they want. This is my #1 problem with M. Tutor, the utility is redic. It's U mana at instant speed for the best card in your deck on top EOT. In combo it's almost equal to Vamp Tutor which everyone can agree is too strong.

Third, combo doesn't need any help right now. It still puts up good results, see SCG top 8 and 9 in Baltimore which is smack in the middle of the strongest Legacy metagame in the world. Reanimator was never that good of a deck once it wasn't a surprise, but I think it warped the metagame in a really unfun way and I'm glad to see it gone without Tutor. The metagame is skewed towards Ux aggro-control right now which is a place we've all been in before. Perhaps it is too strong of a decktype or maybe we just haven't found the answer yet as a format, but unbanning Tutor would only make matters worse as it makes Ux tempo a better deck choice and everything without Blue much worse. There are definitely decks that beat Merfolk and UG Survival out there, but most of those decks fold to combo. If combo was any bigger than it is now I wouldn't see any reason to play a deck other than Merfolk. Really what beats Merfolk, UG Vine, and ANT w/Tutor. Right now you can SB vs. combo and have it be relevant. With Mystical Tutor any deck without blue can't reliably SB and expect it to be relevant except Stax and Stax sux.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't care. I won with it, I won without it.

[lorddotm]

I voted Yes.

It is not an overly powerful card. It makes Combo able to battle against the more ridiculous hands that something like Merfolk can get. Plus, it was no where near unbeatable, New Horizons was eating it up like there was no tomorrow. There is something to be said about big green dudes with Wastelands, Stifles, and Force of Wills. Also, Zoo is slowly going away. I haven't seen Zoo since Mystical was banned. Zoo used to prey on all the Merfolk, New Horizon, and CounterTop decks that beat the Combo and Reanimator that beat the Zoo decks. It made for a very broad rock, paper, scissors metagame.

All in all, this metagame is healthy, but it was healthier with Mystical (more non-Blue as well as combo and control). With the recent innovation concerning Vengevine, it might help crack this nut open even farther.

Also, you can't blame Mystical Tutor for other decks not packing enough hate for it. Maybe playing those extra counters in the board would be a smart move.

Plus, DailyMTG gave us very crappy reasoning for the banning.

[Fuzzy]

No. Reanimate was too much Idiot-proof.

[Phoenix Ignition]

No, having the ability to maindeck 1 of
Show and tell
Wipe Away
Krosan Grip
Slaughter Pact
while find it using at least 5 different cards was broken. Someone casts counterbalance turn 2? respond by M-tutoring your 1-of answer to their 4-of card. It's silly that silver bullets were maindecked when M tutor was around. It made AdN and Reanimator far too easy of decks to fight through all possible forms of hate against them. You play 10 sideboard graveyard hates? I play 1 Show and Tell. I win.

[maxflow2]

I don't care. I won with it, I won without it.

Way to pat yourself on the back.

In all seriousness, storm is still alive and well, though maybe not with quite as many options or quite as consistent as before. Reanimator seems to have been killed though, which is a bit of a shame; even though I didn't play it, I felt the deck was far from idiot proof. While I don't entirely agree with the logistics behind the banning, I think we've seen a larger variety of combo decks see play as a result such as Aluren, Doomsday, and Show and Tell. Previously, I think these were held back because they were just slower and largely inferior to storm and reanimator. They may have just been the result of people brewing after the ban, though. Overall, I think the effect has been positive so I vote no. Wizard's justification on DailyMTG was pretty appalling, however...

[Nidd]

Sure, I'd like to see it unbanned.

[jazzykat]

I voted unban. When the 5ks get as much reanimator or tendrils as there is merfolk or vengevine survival in the top 16 I'll worry. The meta was adapting and will continue to do so.

[Philipp2293]

Not sure about it, when it was unbanned I never wanted it to be banned, but pretty fine with the current meta (at least the one I experience).

[Cthuloo]

I'm not really going to answer, To me is a though question: to be honest, it's hard to say that Mystical was really overpowered, Reanimator and ANT weren't putting up such high numbers to justify the ban. But I must say that I like the meta after the ban more than the meta previous to the ban. In any case, it is probably too soon to decide for an unban, I would wait for the metagame to really settle, before evaluating a possible unban of the card.

[HAVE HEART]

Yes, unban it. The banned list should be as small as possible.

[redferne]

No.

If you can, please explain your vote and the reasons you feel the way you do.
I don't have to explain, you already stated it in the vote list. Bad pool.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Even though I think it's pretty safe to unban Mystical Tutor I don't think they should do so. The metagame has still not settled down entirely and there's no need to shake it up again. I really like the meta how it is right now, basically every deck can be tuned to beat any other deck (with a few exceptions of course) and Legacy totally benefits from the wide range of cards we can play.

[Pastorofmuppets]

ANKH would rape the format.

[AlterEgo]

I'm missing the Option "No, Combo can do without."

Anyway, that's what I think.
If I remember right, Combo is SUPPOSED to have a hard time against Control. As well as Control should struggle against Aggro and Aggro stands (almost) no chance against Combo.

The problem is not that playing combo got a lot more difficult with the ban, the problem is, it had been far to easy pre-ban!

[Muradin]

No, beginners get demotivated if crushed by combo too often, especially since most of those players don't have the cards / decks to fight combo effectively, thus it if good for the format if combo is relevant and strong, but not dominant.

[alderon666]

No, beginners get demotivated if crushed by combo too often, especially since most of those players don't have the cards / decks to fight combo effectively, thus it if good for the format if combo is relevant and strong, but not dominant.


No, beginners get demotivated if crushed by combo too often, especially since most of those players don't have the cards / decks to fight combo effectively, thus it if good for the format if combo is relevant and strong, but not dominant.

Yeah, because getting killed after a 30 minutes games by 2/2 lands is very motivating. How about getting attacked by 4 4/3's turn 4? Must be hella fun when you're playing your soldier deck.




I think it should be unbanned, then they should wait until it broke the format and then ban it again. Then we wouldn't have that bad taste in our mouths because they killed 2 decks for NO REASON AT ALL!

Saying storm is fine is bullshit. TES is fine, AdN is dead. They are 2 completely different decks with very different play styles. I really like storm, but I hate playing TES.

And on Reanimator being idiot proof. So what? As far as I'm concerned Merfolk is pretty idiot proof too, just because you have to play more turns with it doesn't make it that much harder to play with.

[Tacosnape]

In case nobody noticed, there wasn't ever a mass clamoring to ban Mystical Tutor in the first place. But it fixed a lot of things. Wizards might listen to players on occasion, but most of the time they know what they're doing far far better than the people who post in these or other forums, who all have wildly skewed and differing opinions and flimsy arguments to back them up.

1-mana tutors always have the potential to be broken. All of the mirage E-Tutors have been part of a tier-1 deck at one point or another and probably will again. Mystical Tutor was a good ban.

Also, Merfolk is not idiot-proof at all. The deck relies heavily on combat math and selecting the exact correct moment to throw your countermagic.

[AriLax]

I think it should be unbanned, then they should wait until it broke the format and then ban it again. Then we wouldn't have that bad taste in our mouths because they killed 2 decks for NO REASON AT ALL!

Pre-banning every single name pro I asked was playing Underground Sea and Mystical at the GP unless they could not find them. Sick format.


Saying storm is fine is bullshit. TES is fine, AdN is dead. They are 2 completely different decks with very different play styles. I really like storm, but I hate playing TES.


AdN is hardly dead, Grim Tutor being approximately 2 million dollars is just a constraining factor.

Edit: Lol at the Loam hate. Almost like I know what I'm talking about....

[jazzykat]

Yeah, because getting killed after a 30 minutes games by 2/2 lands is very motivating. How about getting attacked by 4 4/3's turn 4? Must be hella fun when you're playing your soldier deck.


Dude...what about getting ghost quartered, maze of ithed out and getting barbarian ringed for 10 turns because they couldn't find their factory!

[kusumoto]

Sounds like unbanning it in a few months would be pretty good.

I am surprised there are so many people that actually agree with the banning. I think a format that is dominated by aggro control decks is kind of lame.

[Doomsday]

Unban. Banning a card that isn't warping the format and isn't contributing to a deck that's dominating is stupid.

[Deadweight]

Unban Mystical Tutor,

then ban Entomb, Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor. This should have been the easy fix in the first place. Better?

No? so just deal with it.

[Nekrataal]

UNBAN

The recent shifts in the metagame were mostly NOT influenced by the Ban but by new cards like Vengevine. The ban lead to exactly two effects:

1) Storm Combo looks different now but seems to be as effective as before looking at recent results. ANT may be dead but therefore other forms of Storm combo thrive.
2) Reanimator is dead

So in the end the ban just made Reanimator disappear into the hole it crept out of after the unbanning of Entomb. Except from that the ban didn't hose combo AT ALL, it just made Storm players change their decks and opened room for other combo decks like the vast number of S&T / Sneak Attack Emrakul.decs which kind of inherited the place of Reanimator.

So I vote for unban because I do not see a threat in doing so and the intended goal wasn't met. The potential effects to keep combo in check hasn't worked out (see Storm Combo) or was way out of line (see Reanimator).

[emidln]

Unban Mystical Tutor,

then ban Entomb, Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor. This should have been the easy fix in the first place. Better?

No? so just deal with it.

I'd be okay with this. My NLS didn't run Infernal Tutor...

[CorpT]

In case nobody noticed, there wasn't ever a mass clamoring to ban Mystical Tutor in the first place. But it fixed a lot of things. Wizards might listen to players on occasion, but most of the time they know what they're doing far far better than the people who post in these or other forums, who all have wildly skewed and differing opinions and flimsy arguments to back them up.

1-mana tutors always have the potential to be broken. All of the mirage E-Tutors have been part of a tier-1 deck at one point or another and probably will again. Mystical Tutor was a good ban.

Also, Merfolk is not idiot-proof at all. The deck relies heavily on combat math and selecting the exact correct moment to throw your countermagic.

This is probably true, but then they should explain themselves better. I think part of the reason people want it unbanned is because they think the reason it was banned was because the DCI played a few MTGO Practice rounds with Reanimator and decided it was too powerful. Because that's basically what they said. If they came out and explained everything, I think people would be a lot more understanding.

[dahcmai]

I think it should be unbanned, but there's one huge reason I would want it to stay banned anyway. I love only running into decent Storm players now. It was sooooo annoying when you played against a storm player who only knew that if you cast Ad Nauseum, you won. Now they have to actually think about it. Oh noes! It sure cleared out the idiots from that deck and sent them back to Merfolk or Vengevine quickly. I didn't mind reanimator anyway.

[Shimi]

No, people just need time to find a balance and a answer to Vines and Folks.MT was and it is too broken.If people do not find ways to deal with some dominant decks then you should consider banning Survival , cause it is a infinite instant tutor like MT was, but i don't think it will be necessary.

[Meekrab]

Sure.

Also unban: Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Mana Drain, and I almost want to say Strip Mine. But people would cry because Stax would be a reasonable deck to play.

[lorddotm]

Sure.

Also unban: Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Mana Drain, and I almost want to say Strip Mine. But people would cry because Stax would be a reasonable deck to play.

Did you just say that Mystical Tutor was on the same level as Earthcraft, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Mana Drain, and say that those were worse than Strip Mine?

You shouldn't count.


Mind Twist is definitely not a scary card. Anything less than X=3 is worse than Hymn. But that isn't broken.

With Frantic Search legal in a format, how would you be scared? OH NOES! SOLIDARITY MIGHT BE A REAL DECK! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Bahamuth]

Earthcraft is really nowhere close to the power level Mystical Tutor has in an eternal format.

[Nelis]

I don't get it. The banning of Mystical Tutor has led to this metagame why would unbanning again make the format different from what it was before?

[kusumoto]

Sure.

Also unban: Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Mana Drain, and I almost want to say Strip Mine. But people would cry because Stax would be a reasonable deck to play.

Mind Twist, Earthcraft, and Frantic Search actually should be unbanned I think.

The others are just ridiculous and there's no point in discussing them.

[emidln]

Unban:

Mystical Tutor
Anaba Grunt
Frantic Search
Earthcraft
Timetwister
Mind's Desire
Balance
Demonic Consultation
Time Vault

Ban:

Mountain Goat
Soldevi Digger
Phantasmal Terrain
Time Warp
Doomsday

[Bahamuth]

Do I sense a slight hint of sarcasm here? I mean come on. We wouldn't want Anaba Grunt in the format again.

[Vacrix]

I think MT could safely be unbanned.

That doesn't mean that it should be though. Combo players should be happy with an MT ban; it makes combo harder to play, which means dedicated combo players can keep throwing down complex spell chains while a majority of ANT players have dropped the deck completely. Fewer combo players means less incentive in the metagame to play decks that beat combo, and more incentive to play the decks that combo beats.

At least... thats what my intuition tells me. Do results confirm this? Merfolk has been winning a lot and UG Madness is on the rise. I haven't heard too much about Countertop lately.



Also, unban Frantic Search please. I want to play Tier 1 Solidarity!

[Meekrab]

Did you just say that Mystical Tutor was on the same level as Earthcraft, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Mana Drain, and say that those were worse than Strip Mine?

You shouldn't count.
Nope, I didn't say anything about 'level,' whatever you're referring to when you say that. Just that those cards could probably be unbanned together without much of a problem, and that Strip Mine would (likely) cause the most whining because playing against an Affinity or Stax list that started out with:



Herp herp gud cards guise
4x Wasteland
4x Strip Mine
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

would be really unfun for most Legacy decks and players, no matter how good the deck or pilot was.

[lorddotm]

Nope, I didn't say anything about 'level,' whatever you're referring to when you say that. Just that those cards could probably be unbanned together without much of a problem, and that Strip Mine would (likely) cause the most whining because playing against an Affinity or Stax list that started out with:



would be really unfun for most Legacy decks and players, no matter how good the deck or pilot was.

You make no sense.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I voted to Unban it. Towards the end I came up with some wildly fun TES variants and the most insane DD list I ever tested. Honestly, I played a few decks that it felt like cheating. Reanimator is a joke, I lost to it for a bit with combo then when I realized I needed to play Wipe Away in my Shelldock stacks I only dropped 1 tournament match out of about 7 and thats was complete BS.

I don't know how FAIR it is per-say, but I have no problems losing to combo ever. The only decks I hated were the Saito ANT lists cause any idiot could pick that up and go far. But I really just miss the fun and creative things I could do with MT. My options of combo decks are very limited, I used to have like 8 different lists I constantly rotated around now I only have 3 .... I always thought Reanimator sucked but people liked playing it so more power 2 em I guess.

Do I think MT is busted in the right hands, yes. But as someone previously mentioned, I would have no problem banning Infernal Tutor and taking MT off the banned list. Would that seem fair since it shuts that Saito garbage off? And is anyone really concerned with Reanimator anymore?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Unban Frantic Search, I already bought my set.
Oh, and Mind Twist probably won't be banned simply because there's no point to it. Any deck that can probably abuse it would make better use of a stronger X spell, or some random huge dude. It would only be useful when X was 3. Natural Order costs 4, too. There's probably something else, too, but come on! Natural Muhfuggin' Order.
Interesting concept: What would happen to Mind's Desire pricewise if it were unbanned?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Nope, I didn't say anything about 'level,' whatever you're referring to when you say that. Just that those cards could probably be unbanned together without much of a problem, and that Strip Mine would (likely) cause the most whining because playing against an Affinity or Stax list that started out with:



would be really unfun for most Legacy decks and players, no matter how good the deck or pilot was.

I love it when people come into ban/unban discussions and say things like Strip Mine should be unbanned because it makes it really easy to determine that they have 0% idea what they are talking about.

[emidln]

Nothing would happen to Desire. It was a popular extended deck and still dirt cheap ($1-2).

[Meekrab]

I love it when people come into ban/unban discussions and say things like Strip Mine should be unbanned because it makes it really easy to determine that they have 0% idea what they are talking about.
You make me laugh because NOBODY has ever played in a format where 4x Wasteland 4x Strip Mine was allowed. Let me repeat that, nobody. Ever. Thus, you don't know what you're talking about either. Kinda funny how that works out, isn't it?

[dontbiteitholmes]

You make me laugh because NOBODY has ever played in a format where 4x Wasteland 4x Strip Mine was allowed. Let me repeat that, nobody. Ever. Thus, you don't know what you're talking about either. Kinda funny how that works out, isn't it?

People have never played a "format" where Strip Mine was legal, but they don't need to to be able to tell you it is broken and would make the format stupid. I mean by the caveman logic of that argument there's no way we can say for sure that 4x Black Lotus is really broken guys. There would be absolutely no reason to not play 4x Strip Mine in any non-combo deck. It's the poster child for cards that will never come off the restricted list. I'm 100% serious when I say I think Sol Ring would be a safer unban than Strip Mine. So yeah, sorry but you don't know what your talking about.

[Shawon]

How come everyone who votes for unbanning Mystical Tutor always mentions how combo wouldn't be unstoppable with it back in the format, but never mention how Reanimator would not be back at the top tables? Seriously, so far, not.a.single.one.post.in.this.thread.(posts that vote for unbanning Tutor, I saw posts that mentioned Reanimator but mentioned keeping MT banned) has mentioned how Reanimator won't be unstoppable with Mystical Tutor back.

[dahcmai]

You make me laugh because NOBODY has ever played in a format where 4x Wasteland 4x Strip Mine was allowed. Let me repeat that, nobody. Ever. Thus, you don't know what you're talking about either. Kinda funny how that works out, isn't it?


Ummm, hate to argue with you, but I did. It was legal to have 4 strips and wastelands in Vintage for a short time during Tempest era. It lasted for only a short time, but it was there. I played 5 color Mirror control and it was redonkulous having them both. Strip Mine wasn't always restricted, but for the record, yes, it was pretty nasty.

Also, having 4 Sol Rings was more broken than having 4 Strip Mines. At least it was back then. You guys tend to forget that at one time, even Black Lotus was a 4 of in some decks, though that was before tournaments really existed and we still played for ante. Sol Ring was always pretty amazing due to Workshops and was half the reason Juggernaut got banned.

[lorddotm]

How much better is Mind's Desire than Ad Nauseam?

[Meekrab]

Ummm, hate to argue with you, but I did. It was legal to have 4 strips and wastelands in Vintage for a short time during Tempest era. It lasted for only a short time, but it was there. I played 5 color Mirror control and it was redonkulous having them both. Strip Mine wasn't always restricted, but for the record, yes, it was pretty nasty.

Also, having 4 Sol Rings was more broken than having 4 Strip Mines. At least it was back then. You guys tend to forget that at one time, even Black Lotus was a 4 of in some decks, though that was before tournaments really existed and we still played for ante. Sol Ring was always pretty amazing due to Workshops and was half the reason Juggernaut got banned.
Yeah, exactly. Nobody knows what Legacy would become if 8x Wasteland were legal. That's all I'm saying. The metagame would adapt, there's no reason to suspect the format would become unplayable except that 50% of decks right now are stupid ones like Zoo or Merfolk.

[Pastorofmuppets]

How much better is Mind's Desire than Ad Nauseam?

well, not having to race against faster decks is pretty nice. You can win on 1 life with YOUR big draw spell. And you don't need to worry about the CMCs of cards you run, which is always nice.

[SlopeeJ]

As a Merfolk player I think unbanning mystical tutor wouldn't be bad. I liked my reanimator match up and more combo/big fatties helped keep zoo and goblins in check for the most part. I'm not trying to start the debate about Combo vs Merfollk or anything, just my opinion. I also like that there was both graveyard and combo hate in each sb

I think the banning of Mystical Tutor is better for the none blue decks and possibly allows for more decks to be played as opposed to just force vs force.

[lorddotm]

well, not having to race against faster decks is pretty nice. You can win on 1 life with YOUR big draw spell. And you don't need to worry about the CMCs of cards you run, which is always nice.

It's pretty hard to cast though.

[Jonathan Alexander]

It might be a bit harder to cast but it doesn't bring any restrictions in deckbuilding with it and it's much harder to stop once it's been cast. Ad Nauseam without protection can just run into Force Of Will whereas Mind's Desire for six or seven will basically always just win the game. Plus Mind's Desire is Sorcery and can easily be put into wishboards while Cunning Wish for Ad Nauseam isn't exactly powerful. I mean seriously, imagine a deck with 4 Burning Wish, 4 Infernal Tutor and 3 Mind's Desire. I'm pretty sure it'd be really powerful.

[Gheizen64]

No please, not Mind Desire. It's a 6 mana spell that can't be countered and say "you win". And it's probably better than Bargain in storm since it doesn't even cost you life, meaning you can race aggro deck even at 1 life and still win ez.

[emidln]

no please, not mind desire. It's a 6 mana spell that can't be countered and say "you win". And it's probably better than bargain in storm since it doesn't even cost you life, meaning you can race aggro deck even at 1 life and still win ez. i'm terrible at magic and have never piloted storm combo before. Ignore me please.

FTFY. Desire would be more fair than Mystical Tutor since the Desire decks by and large are going to lose to Counterbalance decks (just like they already do) and Desire won't significantly improve (I'd argue that it decreases) the aggro matchup. I guess it makes you beat Landstill that much harder, but no storm pilot is that afraid of anything short of 4 Mage, 4 Duress or 4 Counterbalance, 4 SDT from Landstill.

Mystical on the other hand creates storm decks that manage to Emrakul or KGrip the Counterbalance decks and Ad Nauseam the rest of the format. Mystical solves problems for storm that Desire doesn't.

[Jodahae]

I voted to unban, really though there are probably 6 other spells that I would rather see unbanned before mystical. Although I play combo and loved using the card, I would really like to see how cards like Gush, Frantic Search or Earthcraft could shake up the metagame before I personally would need mystical back.

[Gheizen64]

ftfy. Desire would be more fair than mystical tutor since the desire decks by and large are going to lose to counterbalance decks (just like they already do) and desire won't significantly improve (i'd argue that it decreases) the aggro matchup. I guess it makes you beat landstill that much harder, but no storm pilot is that afraid of anything short of 4 mage, 4 duress or 4 counterbalance, 4 sdt from landstill.

Mystical on the other hand creates storm decks that manage to emrakul or kgrip the counterbalance decks and ad nauseam the rest of the format. Mystical solves problems for storm that desire doesn't.

l - o - l

[kusumoto]

Clearly the solution to all of our problems is a restricted list.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Clearly the solution to all of our problems is a restricted list.

Restricted and Banned? That would be totally confusing. I'm sure Wizards wouldn't want to do that to Legacy. And on top of that it'd make Vintage and Legacy way too similar I think.

[perm]

Restricted and Banned? That would be totally confusing. I'm sure Wizards wouldn't want to do that to Legacy. And on top of that it'd make Vintage and Legacy way too similar I think.

I think it would be alright if there was only a select few number of restricted cards, maybe capped at 5 or 10. Tarmogoyf would be a good candidate for restriction, maybe Mystical tutor, too.

[Cabal_chan]

How come everyone who votes for unbanning Mystical Tutor always mentions how combo wouldn't be unstoppable with it back in the format, but never mention how Reanimator would not be back at the top tables? Seriously, so far, not.a.single.one.post.in.this.thread.(posts that vote for unbanning Tutor, I saw posts that mentioned Reanimator but mentioned keeping MT banned) has mentioned how Reanimator won't be unstoppable with Mystical Tutor back.

Maybe because when people wisen up and learn how to combat 'pitch Rootwalla for Vengevine for Vengevine for Vengevine for Vengevine for Rootwalla for Wonder smash for 16', they'd also figure out how to beat Reanimator? (Hint: Two, though different, strategies that are both hampered by grave hate).

[Pastorofmuppets]

I think it would be alright if there was only a select few number of restricted cards, maybe capped at 5 or 10. Tarmogoyf would be a good candidate for restriction, maybe Mystical tutor, too.

Can we not talk about Tamogoyf in threads about B&R lists ever again? Tarmogoyf will never be banned because it's just a vanilla beater. Wizards banned Turd Ape once, and to this day (at least as of the printing of FTV:E) they don't seem to think banning beaters is a smart choice.
Tarmogoyf isn't some degenerate combo piece, it's just an efficient beater.
Let's compare Goyf to Mystical Tutor.
Tutor:
-Grabs Entomb/Reanimate for a possible tun 2 Iona, beating for an evasive 7 the next turn and shutting down anywhere from 1/5 to all of the spells in your opponents' decks.
-Sets up whatever you need (AdN, IT, Tendrils, some form of disruption) for a 20-damage swing next turn
-Grabs Doomsday to set up a shelldock pile that gives your opponent one turn before there's a 15/15 flying, wrathing Time Walk on your side of the field.
Obviously these are all sensitive to strategically played counterspells, and the first one gets fucked by an uncountered Relic but both of this things kind of hurt Tarmogoyf, too.

Tarmogoyf:
-Drops on tun 2, setting up a 1-5 life swing next turn.
-Blocks creatures in decks that can't run him (or something better than him) because they dumb. Affinity comes to mind.
In addition to all of the disruption that effects those combos, Goyf also dies to one of the most run 1-mana removal spells in the format.

Also, a Restricted list is to take away the consistency of combos that would otherwise run 4 Will or 4 Wish or 4 Recall while still being able to say that this is a format where you can play every card ever printed that doesn't involve ante, dexterity, "Un-" at the beginning of the set's name, or making you play a subgame of Magic: The Gathering. Vintage is already that format, so Legacy doesn't need to be. If something is too strong, it gets banned. That's it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yeah, exactly. Nobody knows what Legacy would become if 8x Wasteland were legal. That's all I'm saying. The metagame would adapt, there's no reason to suspect the format would become unplayable except that 50% of decks right now are stupid ones like Zoo or Merfolk.

Except that Strip Mine is not Wasteland. Every deck would just play Strip Mine instead of Wasteland and Wasteland instead of Port, lots more games would be decided by one player Mining the other player since you could no longer fetch basics to avoid getting boned. Wasteland loses to fetches for basics and Port hits basics but requires a constant investment. Strip Mine has no drawbacks, it is Wasteland + Port on crack. Fetching basics to avoid Wasteland puts you at a possible disadvantage or can possibly put you on the advantage and is another decision that determines games based on playskill. Strip Mine is retard proof. Noone ever runs basics if every deck runs 4x Strip Mines because what's the point, and Strip Mine hits everything so you just play it and Mine them 99% of the time. More bad players win games because there is little to no risk reward involved in Strip Mine, sometimes you draw 2x Strip Mines and just totally screw the other player regardless of what they do. There is no more risk reward in running extra colors in a deck since 20x duals and 20x basics are the same difference to Strip Mine so every just says fuck it and splashes for whatever.

So yeah, that is basically why it will not and should not be unbanned.



How come everyone who votes for unbanning Mystical Tutor always mentions how combo wouldn't be unstoppable with it back in the format, but never mention how Reanimator would not be back at the top tables? Seriously, so far, not.a.single.one.post.in.this.thread.(posts that vote for unbanning Tutor, I saw posts that mentioned Reanimator but mentioned keeping MT banned) has mentioned how Reanimator won't be unstoppable with Mystical Tutor back.

As I implied in another post, the fact of the matter is Reanimator was a top deck for maybe 2 big tournaments before people decided to play against it, then it sucked. Reanimator is not the problem, ANT with a 1x answer to every piece of permanent combo hate in the SB is the problem the way I see it. Add to that the fact that combo is doing just as well as it was before MT banning, and the fact that as of right this minute if MT were to be unbanned combo would only get stronger while Merfolk and Madness would probably have the best game against it while many of their bad matchups would completely fold to combo. Since those 3 decks were 75% of the last major event top 16 I think that would qualify as a bad idea at this point. The fact that ANT made it to 8th and 9th place when the top tables were obviously full of UG aggro control shows that it does not need a boost at this point.

So yeah I'm going to vote no in the poll, but I disagree with Reanimator being too strong. I'm glad to see it gone though, it was a boring deck to play against and it warped the format in an unfun way.

[Grollub]

People have never played a "format" where Strip Mine was legal, but they don't need to to be able to tell you it is broken and would make the format stupid.
Uhm, I have - anyone that played competetive magic around 95 have, it wasn't really that bad despite Black Vise and Necropotence being "fair" game too. :)

----

Mystical definately needs to stay banned, it's a one mana tutor, in the best color, for the best cards at the best speed. The amount of flexibility and consistancy it grants is silly.

[Shawon]

Maybe because when people wisen up and learn how to combat 'pitch Rootwalla for Vengevine for Vengevine for Vengevine for Vengevine for Rootwalla for Wonder smash for 16', they'd also figure out how to beat Reanimator? (Hint: Two, though different, strategies that are both hampered by grave hate).

Nice answer. What does Madness have to do with anything? Madness and Reanimator are two completely different strategies with different lines of attack. Putting them into the same category just because they have graveyard synergies is retarded. Both decks have different ways of answering graveyard hate. Try to actually answer my question instead of just answering it with another question.

[perm]

Can we not talk about Tamogoyf in threads about B&R lists ever again? Tarmogoyf will never be banned because it's just a vanilla beater.

So, why haven't the printed a vanilla 10/10 for G? It can be chumped, and it dies to removal!!11 not possibly format warping or game breaking, i mean, it's VANILLA, it's cool guys!

[lorddotm]

So, why haven't the printed a vanilla 10/10 for G? It can be chumped, and it dies to removal!!11 not possibly format warping or game breaking, i mean, it's VANILLA, it's cool guys!

Right. a 4/5 for G1 and a 10/10 for G are completely near the same level. That is like comparing Ill-Gotten Gains to Yawgmoth's Will. They both get cards back from the grave right!? Both are used in storm! One can't be that much more broken than the other right!?

Please don't post if you're a moron.

No one complained about Mystical Tutor before the ban. But after it has been banned people are like ZOMG.

Mystical has been in the format for a long time. The second people stop paying attention to it, Entomb gets unbanned, people still don't pay attention to it, and then they get beaten in the face by Iona on turn 2. Now Mystical Tutor is too broken. They never looked at their options against Mystical Tutor. Counterbalance is pretty good. Countering that Mystical is also pretty good. Because very few people know how to play against Storm combo, Mystical Tutor is broken?

If people learned how to play Magic better, good cards wouldn't be perceived as broken. Mystical Tutor is not broken. A card like Vampiric Tutor is. The difference is that Vampiric Tutor can get ANY card. You can't go and grab your Ad Nauseam, as well as your Lion's Eye Diamond with Mystical Tutor.

In all honesty, the most "broken" card in Storm is Lion's Eye Diamond, it was not, and never will be, Mystical Tutor.

With that said, I think that if we kept Mystical Tutor banned, I would be alright with them letting Mind's Desire back into the format (if only because I miss casting it and winning so efficiently). Mind's Desire was only "broken" when you hit another Mind's Desire.


This discussion is pointless because nothing they just banned or unbanned will be unbanned or banned, respectively. Wizards is hesitant to let us touch the "broken" boundary, which is not necessarily wrong of them.

[perm]

I am just saying that the "LoL VaNiLlA bEaTeR cAnT b BrOkEn!!1" argument is completely fucking asinine, I obviously am not arguing that 10/10 for G is equivalent to a tarmogoyf.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I am just saying that the "LoL VaNiLlA bEaTeR cAnT b BrOkEn!!1" argument is completely fucking asinine, I obviously am not arguing that 10/10 for G is equivalent to a tarmogoyf.

You're arguing that a vanilla beater CAN be broken, which is pretty fucking dumb. Goyf doesn't win you the game on its own.
That being said, neither did Mystical Tutor, but it definitely facilitated a lot more fucked up shit than Tarmogoyf ever did

[Meekrab]

Mind's Desire was only "broken" when you hit another Mind's Desire.
This from the same guy who told me my opinion doesn't count because I think Strip Mine could be unbanned. Yeah, a card that lets you play 4-10 other spells for free isn't broken unless you can chain them together. Riiiiiight. Gonna go ahead and laugh now.

[Captain Hammer]

You're arguing that a vanilla beater CAN be broken, which is pretty fucking dumb.

How is that dumb?

I think it's dumber to argue that a vanilla beater can never be broken. Would you say that 2cc 10/10 wouldn't be broken, or a 2cc 20/20? There was a time when a 2cc 5/6 WOULD have been considered broken. Nowadays, it's just obscenely overpowered.

Mystical Tutor doesn't win on it's own. Hell, even black lotus doesn't win on it's own.

No one card wins on it's own. No card is unstoppable. A vanilla overpowered creature is just as likely to win you the game backed up with disruption and removal as Mystical Tutor is to win you the game backed up with disruption and reanimator spells. The success of thresh demonstrates this.

And I think neither card deserves to be banned.

[lorddotm]

This from the same guy who told me my opinion doesn't count because I think Strip Mine could be unbanned. Yeah, a card that lets you play 4-10 other spells for free isn't broken unless you can chain them together. Riiiiiight. Gonna go ahead and laugh now.

It's completely not broken.

Broken is Yawgmoth's Will or Bargain. Over powered would be something like Ad Nauseam and Mind's Desire. In my opinion, there isn't much difference between those two cards, they both are good with Dark Rituals.

Also, you're opinion is invalid if you think that Strip Mine is okay for any format as a 4 of.

Strip Mine doesn't allow for any out playing. You just lose to a double Strip Mine draw if you don't play Moxes or similar cards. Lets say hypothetically they are also playing counters. You're completely fucked. Strip Mine is far to over powered for any format other than Vintage. Wasteland is a format defining card and it is strictly worse than Strip Mine.

Also I think you said that Bargain could be unbanned. But you think that Mind's Desire is broken and unfair? Are you completely and utterly retarded?

[majikal]

Everyone shut the fuck up and get back on topic. Nobody cares what you think needs to be banned. This isn't your soapbox to whine about Tarmogoyf or Force of Will or whatever. It's about Mystical Tutor and whether or not it should be unbanned in context with the direction the format is moving.

I vote yes, because it makes one or two combo decks markedly better than the rest, meaning it is easier to focus hate on them rather than trying to fight all 9 billion combo piles that exist in the format currently.

[Waikiki]

If mystical gets unbanned I wont be playing survivals no more :( ant just is the best deck.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Everyone shut the fuck up and get back on topic. Nobody cares what you think needs to be banned. This isn't your soapbox to whine about Tarmogoyf or Force of Will or whatever. It's about Mystical Tutor and whether or not it should be unbanned in context with the direction the format is moving.

I vote yes, because it makes one or two combo decks markedly better than the rest, meaning it is easier to focus hate on them rather than trying to fight all 9 billion combo piles that exist in the format currently.

Mystical Tutor makes one DTB as far as combo (maybe 2 since people still insist on playing Beltcher) but that deck has access to every anti-hate instant/sorcery with minimal investment. It's also not a sure thing that Doomsday would be completely abandoned in light of MT since it does have an extra route to victory. Either way it's not likely to get unbanned any time in the next 2 years.

[Piceli89]

I don't know. Bringing Mystical Tutor back into the format would, substantially, either don't change anything or shake the actual metgame radically. First of all, Vengevine Survival already gets crushed easily by TES, in the end it's just a bad aggro deck with a pseudo-combo in it and very few pieces of disruption. If ANT would be back, it would quickly replace TES (yes, because I'll tell you this secret, people are playing TES just because it' th best replacement for ANT, other way they wouldn't hesitate to take back the more consistent version). And ANT would obviously still crush Vengevines, but also have a more positive MU to Merfolks.
This would lead to Counterbalance coming back, which means going back to the metagame we had a year ago, with minor decks added (Madness and Jacedeed).

Metagame speculations apart, I came to the conclusion, after a lot of rage, that Mystical tutor was objectively too broken, not in the way that it could fetch you the anti-hate cards (which isn't exactly true because no one ever Mysticaled for a Grip in response to Counterbalance, that costed too much resources and maybe Tutor was also the only business in a hand full of mana), but it often allowed for auto-kills that were extremely consistent and too fast. And all the deck was so well designed to be both explosive and resilient to hate that it really was unbeatable for every non-blue, non-Counterbalance deck. Obviously shit happened even with ANT, but being 3 colours and with a solid manabase allowed to avoid opening sketchy hands, like what happens in TES.

You can't even compare Mystical tutor with Burning Wish, the blue one could take the strongest acceleration (Dark ritual), the strongest protection (Chant), the strongest engine (Ad Nauseam). Wish can just grab B-level stuff, at sorcery speed.
Plus, Mystical Tutor optimized the efficiency of the Ad Nauseam engine because basically you could stop after having flipped Mystical, cantrip and a LED to end it on the spot.This made possible to win from tight situations (8-9 lives).

It saddens me to say this because I loved ANT and DDANT and they have been the strongest storm combo decks in legacy, but I can also understand how it feels to be killed on turn 2 consistently without being able to do anything just because I didn't play blue. Perhaps they shouldn't have printed Ad Nauseam, that was the real dumb piece that required no skill and crowned too much unworthy players, but Legacy lately seems to follow this tendency.

[Rune]

I don't know. Bringing Mystical Tutor back into the format would, substantially, either don't change anything or shake the actual metgame radically. First of all, Vengevine Survival already gets crushed easily by TES, in the end it's just a bad aggro deck with a pseudo-combo in it and very few pieces of disruption. If ANT would be back, it would quickly replace TES (yes, because I'll tell you this secret, people are playing TES just because it' th best replacement for ANT, other way they wouldn't hesitate to take back the more consistent version). And ANT would obviously still crush Vengevines, but also have a more positive MU to Merfolks.
This would lead to Counterbalance coming back, which means going back to the metagame we had a year ago, with minor decks added (Madness and Jacedeed).

Metagame speculations apart, I came to the conclusion, after a lot of rage, that Mystical tutor was objectively too broken, not in the way that it could fetch you the anti-hate cards (which isn't exactly true because no one ever Mysticaled for a Grip in response to Counterbalance, that costed too much resources and maybe Tutor was also the only business in a hand full of mana), but it often allowed for auto-kills that were extremely consistent and too fast. And all the deck was so well designed to be both explosive and resilient to hate that it really was unbeatable for every non-blue, non-Counterbalance deck. Obviously shit happened even with ANT, but being 3 colours and with a solid manabase allowed to avoid opening sketchy hands, like what happens in TES.

You can't even compare Mystical tutor with Burning Wish, the blue one could take the strongest acceleration (Dark ritual), the strongest protection (Chant), the strongest engine (Ad Nauseam). Wish can just grab B-level stuff, at sorcery speed.
Plus, Mystical Tutor optimized the efficiency of the Ad Nauseam engine because basically you could stop after having flipped Mystical, cantrip and a LED to end it on the spot.This made possible to win from tight situations (8-9 lives).

It saddens me to say this because I loved ANT and DDANT and they have been the strongest storm combo decks in legacy, but I can also understand how it feels to be killed on turn 2 consistently without being able to do anything just because I didn't play blue. Perhaps they shouldn't have printed Ad Nauseam, that was the real dumb piece that required no skill and crowned too much unworthy players, but Legacy lately seems to follow this tendency.

I agree with a lot you say. I think it would be interesting to have Ad Nauseam banned and Mystical unbanned, though. This way the best storm deck would clearly be DDFT, but it still would not be anywhere near as fast or easy to play as the old ANT. Reanimator would also be a deck again, and I think that's fine since it's not broken. But yeah, I don't want Mystical back with Ad Nauseam because if you're able to pilot ANT well, then your deck basically takes a dump on the whole format... Unless your opponent plays Counterbalance, in which case you still have a 40/60 shot at winning.

[SpikeyMikey]

You're arguing that a vanilla beater CAN be broken, which is pretty fucking dumb. Goyf doesn't win you the game on its own.
That being said, neither did Mystical Tutor, but it definitely facilitated a lot more fucked up shit than Tarmogoyf ever did

I guess it depends on your definition of broken. I would argue that Tarmogoyf is a format warping card. Probably moreso than any non-FoW card in the format since the split, excepting perhaps SotF. Every deck that sees play is constructed with Tarmogoyf in mind. Can I race 'goyf and Nacatl? Can my creatures punch through an opposing 'goyf? Can I/should I splash green for 'goyf? Since it's printing until the recent wave of Vengevival decks, it was an auto-include in every green deck and such a strong splash card that decks would splash green just for 'goyf. Tarmogoyf warps the format around itself. I don't know that it necessarily qualifies as broken; that depends on how you define broken.

[Shawon]

I guess it depends on your definition of broken. I would argue that Tarmogoyf is a format warping card. Probably moreso than any non-FoW card in the format since the split, excepting perhaps SotF. Every deck that sees play is constructed with Tarmogoyf in mind. Can I race 'goyf and Nacatl? Can my creatures punch through an opposing 'goyf? Can I/should I splash green for 'goyf? Since it's printing until the recent wave of Vengevival decks, it was an auto-include in every green deck and such a strong splash card that decks would splash green just for 'goyf. Tarmogoyf warps the format around itself. I don't know that it necessarily qualifies as broken; that depends on how you define broken.

I don't think Tarmogoyf is warping the format now as it was back then. You mentioned Vengevine decks which don't primarily run Goyf anymore, that should be a hint of Tarmogoyf's decreased presence since its printing. Tarmogoyf is definitely an influential card, but it's not format warping. Merfolk's presence and dominance in the format has influenced control decks to play cards like Peacekeeper over the best swarm-answer of all time, Moat, because Merfolk's counterspells and tribal swarms pressure the control decks to run faster answers. Tarmogoyf on its best day couldn't influence a change like that.

[perm]

Tarmogoyf's power level will never change unless they push this ridiculous power creep mind-bendingly further

[Meekrab]

Tarmogoyf has never been 'warping the format,' it's just that people think swinging with creatures should be a viable strategy in Eternal formats, and so they get upset when only one creature is really viable.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Tarmogoyf has never been 'warping the format,' it's just that people think swinging with creatures should be a viable strategy in Eternal formats, and so they get upset when only one creature is really viable.

What? Yeah he's definitely been format warping, more so in the past. As to whether on not that's a bad thing is another matter. I happen to enjoy Goyf. The fact that the two best preforming creature decks right now both don't run Goyf should tell you something though. I think before Goyf came out Goblin Lackey was too format warping, since every deck absolutely had to either answer him turn 1 or win regardless of whether or not he connected and dropped Commander. It takes the format a while to adjust, but now Goyf isn't quite the powerhouse he was in the past. At least for the time being, though that may change.


Metagame speculations apart, I came to the conclusion, after a lot of rage, that Mystical tutor was objectively too broken, not in the way that it could fetch you the anti-hate cards (which isn't exactly true because no one ever Mysticaled for a Grip in response to Counterbalance, that costed too much resources and maybe Tutor was also the only business in a hand full of mana), but it often allowed for auto-kills that were extremely consistent and too fast. And all the deck was so well designed to be both explosive and resilient to hate that it really was unbeatable for every non-blue, non-Counterbalance deck. Obviously shit happened even with ANT, but being 3 colours and with a solid manabase allowed to avoid opening sketchy hands, like what happens in TES.

While I agree with most of your idea I'm pretty sure plenty of people have Tutored for Grip in response to opponent playing CBalance.

[emidln]

While I agree with most of your idea I'm pretty sure plenty of people have Tutored for Grip in response to opponent playing CBalance.

Guilty.

[lorddotm]

While I agree with most of your idea I'm pretty sure plenty of people have Tutored for Grip in response to opponent playing CBalance.

I have done this before. It's pretty decent.