pink hammer control [Archive]

yougo

10-09-2010, 04:00 AM

hi guys

ok this deck is by far the weirdest deck ive ever created it has bizarre card choice, its red and white and its heavy control:eyebrow:

the list

planewalker 7

2 koth
2 elspeth
2 ajani vangant
1 chandra naalar

disrupt 19

4 sword to plowshare
4 path to exiled
4 lightning helix
3 rolling earthquake
2 humillity
2 banefire

spell 9

4 pitting needle
4 top
1 decree of justice

mana 25

4 arid mesa
1 wooded foothill
3 flooded strand
2 bloodstain mire
4 plateau
4 factory
1 kjeldoran outpost
3 plain
3 mountain

sideboard 15

4 red elemantal blast
3 pyroblast
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 orims chant

the sideboiard is more hypotetical i havent tested it enough to be sure

well as you can see this is an anti aggro deck and it does fearly well againts control

ive test againts a coupple of deck but mostly against ubg landstill and bent in general

first of all i gotta say this thing kill almost every deck that focuse on creature to kill you

second its very good againts control especially after sideboard your running way too many card that they need to counter

you loose to combo game 1 for sure there is no way your gonna win this game you can almost scoop to a combo player so that way he have no idea what kind of card your playing:laugh:

this deck is eating all sorts of goblin and merfolk for breakfeast without forgeting zoo:wink:

counterbalance can be a real pain in the ass pitting needle his top is really good eaven if it cripple your own deck and the chandra naalar is pretty ballin here but still you gotta focused on there soft lock

ill explain all the card choice very soon but for now im sooo tired and im going to sleed dont worry all the card have there reson to be there eaven the 4 needlke main...:eyebrow:

see you soon yougo

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Antonius

10-09-2010, 04:23 AM

needs Obliterate.

The Treefolk Master

10-09-2010, 09:29 AM

Casting Obliterate in Legacy must be the best feeling ever.

4 Pithing Needle maindeck? What's the reasoning behind that?

Why don't you try Gideon Jura or Baneslayer Angel?

And 8 Sword effects is mabe too much. I would go down to 6 (4 StP, 2 PtE) if you want to crush aggro.

AlterEgo

10-09-2010, 11:38 AM

needs Obliterate.

I doubt this deck's manabase can support an EIGHT-mana-sorcery - however useful it may be. Anyway, I like the idea.

Some thoughts from my side:
- wouldn't a Staxx-like manabase be better? Mox Diamond and 2-mana lands make you hit four much faster.
- Koth loves Moon-effects, sadly Elspeth and Humility don't at all
- a single Taiga or Savannah and you can support Firespout (just for those without the money for R.Quake)
- No Lightning Bolts?

Nidd

10-09-2010, 12:45 PM

I doubt this deck's manabase can support an EIGHT-mana-sorcery - however useful it may be. Anyway, I like the idea.

Some thoughts from my side:
- wouldn't a Staxx-like manabase be better? Mox Diamond and 2-mana lands make you hit four much faster.
- Koth loves Moon-effects, sadly Elspeth and Humility don't at all
- a single Taiga or Savannah and you can support Firespout (just for those without the money for R.Quake)
- No Lightning Bolts?
You know the road you suggested to take leads down to a Dragon Stompy-esque deck?

Something, like, Big Staxx? Might work. Problem is, Staxx sucks balls.

Antonius

10-09-2010, 01:57 PM

Koth powers out obliterate the turn after you cast him. If you cast obliterate with a planeswalker in play, you win. Period.

AlterEgo

10-09-2010, 02:47 PM

@Antonius:
Very true, IF he still has at least three loyalty counters left by then (two to activate, one to tell the tale).
Oh, and you need to control 8-X mountains, where X is the number of mana sources you control. Dealing two damage to a planeswalker (or simply removing him completely) isn't that difficult - and Koth, unlike ElspethKE or JaceTM, can't protect himself.

Even if you do pull that off, you need to have another mountain in your hand to start racing. Not the most difficult requirements fo fulfill, but also not the easiest.

@Nidd:
Yes, I know. Nevertheless one should at least think about it - and I can't read people's minds to tell if yougo has.

@yougo:
Really looking forward to your explanations and even more to your experiences.

yougo

10-09-2010, 04:44 PM

wow theres a lot of activities,:laugh:

ok im back for some explanation

ok first of all the philosophy of the deck. this deck goal is to beat aggro consitantly and it does very well as you can see. removing everything your opponant might play until you reach 5 land and then the real power of the build can be unleash once you reach this it will be very hard for aggro AND contol player to take the edge back

first ill start with the disrupt

8 sword effect isnt it a bit too much:eyebrow:? well i say no, why in earth would 8 of finest removal be too much you want in fact too see them all the time, your not playing anything like counterspell but on the other hand getting force a removal and simply play another one puts your opponant in a very bad situation. lets look at the aggro matchup now, having 8 sword is never enough (goblin merfolk zoo ) they stand almost no chance, let's forget about combo for a second here cause yes i does suck as i was explaning, game one againts combo you loose i'll talk about it later

so in short word sword effect is the best removal form in magic, and its not just good againts aggro its good versus anything that rely on creature to kill you.

lightning helix: its a very good card and alot better than bolt againts so many machtup help you stay alive and deal with anoying thing no further explanation

rolling eartquake: this is the kind of card that is just stupid in the deck of course cause of the mass removal effect but can deal with planeswalkers either and can burn your opponant wich is good alot of time espacialy againts control it win you game it clear annoying thing and except for the price is a nice card:laugh:

humility: ok this card is the last nail of the coffin you know when you do a eartquake for 1 and win the game:laugh: but not just that this thing screw so many deck well anyway you already know the power of this card so...

banefire the ultimate weapon againts control, so many time the game seems lost the guy is at 8 he have the edge jace is on the table but then out of no where BANG you win, with koth in play its just retarded how this card can be deadly and it deals with planewalkers and big creture if your running out of sword effect it's the kinda card eaven in 2 of make the deck possible

ok for the spell now

THE 4 PITTING NEEDLE MAINDECK: i was pretty sure that was a big concern for most of you and for a reason this seem a bit déresonable, well let me get this straight its good aganits so many machtup and cause of all the powerfull removal, you can play that kinda card in multiple, ok lets look at the card you might name

survival, mutavault, factory, wasteland, jace, elspeth, jitte, sofi, solas, karakas, grim lavamancer, knight of reliquary, all of the fetches, academy ruins, explosive, pernicious deed, maze of ith, merfolk sovereign, sensei's devining top, vedalken shackel, rishiden port, eather vial etc... well anyway you see the point but the true power of needle is againts control it can destroy them very easely the fact is your running so many removal that you can run specific hate card wich will make you win game one againts so many deck you just have to know how to play them, sometime you can blind cast them but sometime your waiting with them in your hand to back your spell its the kind of card taht can play the defance role and the offance role but the true power of this card is to give you time while the opponant is struggling to awnser your cc1 card your dropping land and grabbing the edge you just have to get used to it and im pretty sure that you should test it before and then we could discuss the ''in depth'' of this card.

the top: this is one of THE most important card of the deck let you look at card it give you land find you those big planeswalker its just too good period.

decree of justice: overall good card paired with humility its very powerfull, its counterspell less, and can save your ass in alot of situation

the mana base: well pretty standard but i gotta say i dont like the outpost and lokking forward to removing it, it does look good but in reality its not, piss me off more than it was actualy good

the combo match up well in other word the storm matchup: you loose game one period (hope he crap) but then game 2 its sideboard time, look a bit lower...

the sideboard : i gotta say i made the sideboard really fast and im not sure about what to put except for the pyrostatic pillar the rest im not sure of course i gotta have a lot of hate againts combo but feel free to give me some idea

and now for the suggestion

obliterate: no i dont think it belong in this list too high cc and it destroy lands wich you dont want to

baneslayer angel: yeah i thaugh about it at fist but then i realise that i will have too many high cost spell and enable opponant removal. seems good but i dont think a creature will help you that much

gideon jura: well sir you made me realise that ive just never think about gideon, seems very powerfull and will surely take place of the chandra thanks alot for that one:smile:

stompy manabase: its inconsistant... the last thing you want sorry:rolleyes:

well thats about, it hoping for great discussion. yougo

ps: sorry again for my poor writting, i was very excited of all the fast awnser

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baghdadbob

10-09-2010, 08:00 PM

Leyline of sanctity would be great s/b.

AlterEgo

10-10-2010, 04:24 AM

You wouldn't need to play the whole set - four Tombs or even just a couple of Moxen might be enough of a speedup. But I do see your point.

Leyline is a great idea against combo (maybe even valuable against burn-heavy aggro, but as you said, that's easy anyways). At the very least it forces them to find some removal for it, which might just slow them down enough.

Something I've forgotten:
- Why Kjeldoran Outpost? You have to sacc a Plains for it, so Wasteland will just 2-for-1 you.
- You said Aggro and Control are fairly easy to beat, have you ever tested against Merfolk?

yougo

10-10-2010, 04:42 AM

hi again folk

yeah i know outpost suck thats why i will get rid of it

i really want to keep the ''classic mana base'' stompy look and is, to shaky to play, as i said inconsitancy is really bad in this deck

and about the leyline: yes i gotta say this one i think could be very good, and the fact that when its in play the opponant cant duress effect you and therfore cant remove orims chant or silencefrom your hand seems pretty strong too so 4 leyline and at leasdt 4 orims chant seems good

so i guess the sideboard would look a bit like this how about it

4 leyline
4 orims chant
4 pyrostatic pillar
3 red elemantal blast ??? (why not)

what do you think???

ho yes almost forgot the merfolk match, this is what i like with this deck :tongue: the merfolk match is like a walk in the park needle naming mutavault and all the other card is really againts those mighty fish you wreck merfolk with this thing period (standstill is of course their best card so more they see it more their chance is better but still very good match)

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yougo

10-11-2010, 02:38 AM

ok a couple of match analysis so far

vs landstill ubg

60/40

its all about hitting the land and pitting needle eaven a 5 land starting hand aint bad, the top is your best card here since you dont get too many sword effect but its still not bad removing there factory is pretty good and pitting needle on jace and deed is just win

sideboard

-2 humillity -4 sword -1 earthquake +4 orims chant +3 blast

65/35

now its just better you got soo many hate card and can back your gamebreaking spell pretty solid

storm

10/90

yeah pretty drastic hope he screw up

sideboard

-2 humillity -4 sword -4 path -4 pitting needle -1 rolling earthquake +all of the sideboard

60/40

way better all of the way too many dead card are gone and its all about who will get the right cards faster havent tested as much thaught but this is what so far im feeling about this( againts empty the warren -1 helix instead of the earthquake)

tribal seems all been around 70/30 to 60/40 elf is the best and goblin seems the worst but still more testing will be required

at first glence im pretty proud of what the deck give me and hoping of more positive feedback

i will play this at my local store this week and i will bring it to a bigger tournament really soon i will gives some news and a small report i guess will help

thanks for reading yougo

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Moczoc

10-11-2010, 07:10 AM

Goblin Trenches seem to be a better choice for the "1 Chandra Nalaar"

yougo

10-11-2010, 12:15 PM

yeah i think i got a little too excited with gideon, at the long run chandra seem like a more logical choice. anyway i will try both and will come back with some news.

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AlterEgo

10-16-2010, 12:51 PM

News:
I took "pink control" (adjusted according to my own card pool) to a small tournament in our local game store. And I was impressed!
First, the decklist:

"The Pink Panther"
//Lands
4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
4 Mountain
3 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

//Control
1 Banefire
1 Demonfire
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Firespout
1 Humility
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

//WinCon
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Chandra Nalaar
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Koth of the Hammer
4 Mishra's Factory

//Sideboard
1 Orim's Chant
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Silence
2 Tormod's Crypt
(I only have one Banefire and Humility or else I'd play more instead of Wraths.)

First match: WB Knights
G1 he gets a turn two Black Knight with a Sword of Body and Mind, effectively blanking all but 6 of my removals - despite Sensei's Top and some Fetches I'm unable to handle it until it's too late. He even Mortifys my one Mishra's Factory that otherwise would have blocked. I can Needle the sword, but before I draw cast and blow up Explosives, the Knight hits me twice. I can't win anymore and scoop.
Board: Ratchet Bombs and Chant for 1 Needle, 1 Top and Chandra

G2 he has the turn two Knight AGAIN. But I'm prepared and put a needle onto any equipment he gets out (SoBaM and Lightning Greaves). That way the Black and another knight face Firespout unequipped. From there I have Sword,Path or Helix for every other knight and ultimately win thanks to Elspeth.

G3 runs almost like the second - plus him being flooded. Funny: I have Top and five lands (1 Mishra, 2 basics and 2 Plateau) and I've been pushing another Top down my library for three turns. He plays Smallpox, saccing a land and a flying cat knight, discarding Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. I tap the Top, in response spin the Top, put the other Top on top, draw the Top, discard Top and sac a plains.
At the end of his next turn, just when I'm spinning my replayed Top, it's time-out... We've both well around 20 life, so we decide to draw the game on the spot - I still had a fistful of removals, but the Koth I'd have drawn wouldn't have been fast enough. I think I'd ultimately have won this - without the time limit.

--> 1 - 1 --> 0/0/1

Second match: UR Burn/Rogue
G1 he starts with a Bloodfire Dwarf... and except for some Mountains, burn spells and a Shifty Doppelganger I never see anything relevant. I don't know, what the doppelganger would have brought to the field if he had been able to handle my fourth turn Humility... In the end Koth and Elspeth make my Plateau into a giant 7/7 flying Elemental, that ultimately seals the deal. Assisted by a Lightning Helix.
Board: I think I took Ratchet Bombs for 1 Top and 1 Needle, but I'm not sure.

G2 runs approximately the same as G1 - except I don't get Humility and he only gets burn and less creatures than I have Swords.

--> 2 - 0 --> 1/0/1

Third match: SpringTide
G1 - he starts and I keep a fast hand. I go into Factory-beatdown-mode, only stopping turn 4 to cast Humility (too keep his Faeries in check). Each Helix hits him, but unfortunately he starts to combo and gets Echoing Truth from the Sideboard.
Board: Silence, Chant and Blasts for Mass Removal and Swords - could have taken OUT more, but not IN...

G2 I keep a hand with Chant, silence, Mishra and draw a Helix - Aggro Mode. The moment he hits 3 Lands (which thankfully is as late as turn 5), I keep 1 white open, hoping to chant him in response to his second High Tide. Nothing happens.
As soon as he's below 8 life, I give a damn and Chant two of his turns in a row - unnecessarily backed by a Blast at that time. Those two turns are enough for Mishra and Ajani to finish him. *Phew*

G3 I play Mishra, Needle in my first turn. To his confused face I just say "Flooded Strand" and gleefully watch his face. What he doesn't know, I have another Needle to place on "Polluted Delta" the next turn. I don't see any Chants this game, but when he attempts to combo, his life counter already says 5 and I have a Factory out.
Despite 2 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm and an Ideas Unbound, he cannot find any untap effects and concedes.

--> 2 - 1 --> 2/0/1
First out of eight. Not a great success, but winning against a High Tide combo deck is really a good feeling - even if it was more luck than anything else.

One thing I have to say: the deck definitely, no DESPERATELY needs another source of card advantage. Sadly, there are no really good ones ind R/W.

Moczoc

10-23-2010, 01:11 PM

One thing I have to say: the deck definitely, no DESPERATELY needs another source of card advantage. Sadly, there are no really good ones ind R/W.

You could try Seer's Sundial

Or the old tech: Crucible + Horizon Canopy

AlterEgo

10-23-2010, 03:35 PM

omg... I have even stopped playing Sundial in EDH. Way too expensive for a control deck, that needs mana to cast spells.

Crucible/Canopy on the other hand seems a solid choice. It also makes Wastelands a lot less scary, has great synergy mith Mishra AND provides green mana for Firespout (which I found to be a decent addition) and Explosives. The only problem I see is the massive hunger for mana inherent to this deck. It might bee too much of a disadvantage

On EE - I'm definitely going to make it more useful by adding a single Badlands (Volcanic Island works, too)... and another EE as card #61

Chandra vs. Gideon
I have come to prefer Chandra (not only because she's the hotter of them). She provides an answer to problem creatures without requiring them to be tapped, like Gideon does. Sure, Gideon can fog for a turn or two, but Chandra's ultimate is devastating, while he just becomes a 6/6 vanilla.

I also had another idea - with 12 instants main and a couple more in the side, wouldn't Isochron Scepter be worth a try?

dahcmai

10-24-2010, 12:13 AM

I tried out a version today for laughs and was surprised to find it's not bad at all.

I like how it dodges Counterbalance well and just steam rolls control decks for the most part. It doesn't seem like it should, but it goes into a war of attrition and you can actually keep up to a point.

I played against BUG Landstill and GRW Chapin's Survival to test it out and was winning in both.

I ended up wanting more humility since it goes so well with Koth and Elspeth and added 1 more of each of those cutting Banefire and co.

I liked the amount of fetches, but disliked the Plateaus so I tossed them in favor of basics and an extra fetch. They are good and all, but we have a ton of wasteland action around here. No one goes without a set.

This deck screams for Land Tax / Scroll Rack. If that card ever comes off the list, I know what I am playing.

Crucible might make it in. It seems very desirable.

I tried out Obliterate, but moved it to the board. I kept thinking about this and am going to try out Cataclysm instead since it's a ton easier to cast and has about the same effect. This might be the card you want, though Obliterate isn't bad and truly scary for the heavy Jace control decks. 2 are going to stay in my board despite it being very dedicated to a certain style of deck. You don't win attrition wars with Jace 2.0 very easily so I like this option.

Isochrons should be in the board just for Storm if anything to give you enough time to set up a win con. You're too slow for that type of stuff and Orim's chant isn't going to cut it by itself. The Scepters might be the thing you need to keep them off long enough to win. It's pretty hard to burning wish/Infernal Tutor a way out under a chant lock. I play storm and my deck would have to top deck into it. It's a seriously bad match, but fixable. That's the best thing I can think of right now.

I like having Humility in the main as a 4 of. Makes Survival easy as sin and screws up any other aggro deck to the extreme. Since it has such a nasty global effect that doesn't do anything to you, it needs to be a 4 of.

I don't like Outposts anymore at all. I loved that card during the alliances days, but it's way past it's time.

I am going to try something since I moved to an all basic land set up. Change them to Snow Covered lands and add some Scrying Sheets ala Quinn.

I don't like the fact you have no answer to Iona on White though. I actually managed to kill her today with a Rolling Earthquake for 7. Truly amusing and the crowd had a good laugh. I shouldn't need to build up to 8 mana to kill an Iona though. I will find a decent fix for that. I added a single Karakas to the main for now.

I might even take a hint from my own EDH decks and try out Scrying Glass. It dodges CB nicely and would be a fair bit better than Top in some instances and definitely over the long run. You seem to go into Attrition wars quite easily since they tend to counter or destroy the early stuff and you keep the table clean. You just need to draw better than them. Crystal Ball might also be a good answer. The Scrying Sheets will probably be good enough so I wouldn't delve this direction too much.

Lastly, Pithing Needle really, really sucks for you. Needs a good answer for that and any other problematic artifacts I can't think of. Some way to deal with them is absolutely needed.

I'll get back after playing it against some other stuff.

AlterEgo

10-24-2010, 05:47 AM

So many good cards to play, so little space in 60 cards.

Cataclysm:
It's absolutely NOT what you want! You're going to keep a Land (Plains or Mishra), an artifact (keep Needle, flip Top), an Enchantment (Humility) and a creature (activated Mishra, Soldier token or animated Mountain) - that's allright, but you sac ALL other permanents - including your only win conditions named Elspeth, Koth, Ajani and Chandra (or Gideon).

Needle:
It's bad for us, yes. That's one of the things I want Engineered Explosives for... On the other hand, we play six different win conditions, several fetch lands and Sensei's Top... They can't needle everything, so they'll probably go for SDTop and Explosives (at least I would), and force us into topdeck mode. Not the best place to be, but doable.

(Snow) basic land + Scrying Sheets:
Afraid of Wasteland? I guess that's what Pithing Needle is for.
You would have to cut fetch lands to make it viable... Needs testing - I'm curious for your results!

Karakas:
Hm... yeah, vs Iona there's only hoping to hit 8 mana (hopefully via Koth... but don't count on it) and then RQuake or Banefire her. Unfortunately you won't live long enough most of the time. Needle on Retainers and/or Survival sometimes works, too.

dahcmai

10-24-2010, 10:55 AM

Ah, I was thinking Cataclysm ignored planeswalkers, never mind on that one, just looked it up.

Can't always Needle Wastes when there are things like Survival, or Jace 2.0 running around. It was usually worth hitting these in the game sI played and holding back for when they got rid of it. Not like you can stop them from killing the needles so I wanted to be able to nail those two cards over and over. And like I said, everyone here has a playset and uses them in everything. If you can run basics here, you do so or go the opposite and run all non-basic.

AlterEgo

11-06-2010, 02:43 PM

First *real* tournament with "The Pink Panther". The List is the above, with the following adjustments:
-2 Wrath, 1 Demonfire, 1 Mountain
+1 Banefire, Explosives, Scrubland, Humility

My matches were:
1:1 vs Vengevine Survival (got 1st)
0:2 vs Burn (13th)
1:2 vs Merfolk w/ Noughts (17th)
1:1 vs BR-Aggro (12th)
2:0 vs UB Dark Depths + Nought (18th)

Final standing 15th out of 21.

Thoughts:
- possible EE for 4 sounds good, but I think I'll go back to 4 Mountains instead of the waste-able Scrubland.
- Humility is nuts - need one more AT LEAST, even if I have to cut Needles
- Ajani is the weakest of the four walkers. In most cases he's nothing more than an overcosted Lightning Helix, so I'll swap at least one out - probably for the third Humility or Elspeth.
- Lands... 25 is huge - but the deck needs it. I won that game against BR, only because I drew or fetched almost each land in my deck - even AFTER my opponent had Extirpated 3 Factories and a remaining Plateau.

dahcmai

11-07-2010, 12:08 PM

Played it in a small tournament yesterday. I had a problem with people slowing down to a crawl since they don't know how to deal with it very well. I ended up drawing in tow rounds due to that. It's a local thing so there's no judge to yell slow play at. Playing through Humility doesn't help really. I found out that printing a copy of the layering rules is a good thing if you want to play this locally. No one seems to believe the stuff you can do under a Humility. Ugh, yes, Koth makes 4/4's, yes Mishra's is a 2/2, and yes it can be a 5/5 flyer with Elspeth out. Read already people. Grrrrr

Anyway, played against some sort of Bant control thing that resembled Countertop Goyf except I didn't see the countertop part. Might not have drawn it. Took game 1, he gets me game 2 to multiple knight of the reliquary, Drew to time Bant New Horizons maybe?

Mono-U Faeries - Took game 1 again, then died to a timely repeal on humility and a recurring Vendellion Clique with that wizard land. Couldn't kill the thing, didn't see that coming. Sucked too, he was at 1 life while I was digging for a burn spell. Drew to time.

Merfolk - Easy one, kill kill kill, Koth. Kill, kill, Kill, Koth. Merfolk Doesn't like him much.

Goblins - Took game 1 pretty handily due to Humility. Game 2 lost to double Grip on two humilities. Bah. Game 3, just got rushed when I only had 3 land and moat on top. Goblins does that.

Not a great performance at all, but I still think the deck has promise. The sideboard just needs a ton of work to keep people from stalling out. I found that Vedalken Shackles needs a serious answer. It's too good against your tokens since it will kill your own guys over and over. That's why I went to time with that Fae deck.

Needs more manland I think. I kept wanting more. I wish the red one kept it's first strike under a Humility and I would play that. I think Mutavault is going to be the way to go.

AlterEgo

11-07-2010, 12:39 PM

Needs more manland I think. I kept wanting more. I wish the red one kept it's first strike under a Humility and I would play that.

First thing:
The trick with Ghitu Encampment is, it is granted First strike by the same activated ability, that makes it 2/1. That ability has a later time stamp than Humility (otherwise the whole Mishra-thing wouldn't work at all).
Result: you have a 2/1 red Land Creature -- Warrior with First strike. What bugs me more about the Encampment is its first ability: etb-tapped.

Second, on Mutavault:
Even more non-mountain, non-plains, nonbasic lands in a deck that needs double white and some Mountains to work? Too bad there was no R/W manland in Worldwake - It would have gone right in.

Third:
I ponder going all-basic the next time and add some Blood Moons. I believe this is a good idea, only need to see where they fit in.

dahcmai

11-07-2010, 11:59 PM

Duh, why didn't i realize that. It's layer 6 that has the ability adding effects. I think I might have to play that now.

I don't about using Blood Moons. It's great against some decks, but most of the time you aren't going to care. Your worst matches seem to be mono-color at least for me anyway. I am not sure i would want to give up the board room for it either. I can't think of too many matches where I would trade my Mishra's for moons. I did cut the plateau's, but that's only for my area. Not sure if I would add them in for other areas.

Moczoc

11-25-2010, 05:11 PM

I startet playing this deck and my list works very good. Aside from Goblin Trenches over Ajani, it is quite standard. If a W/R Control can be that ;)

Spells
2 Goblin Trenches
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Koth of the Hammer

4 Firespout
4 Humility
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Meekstone
4 Magma Jet

Lands
3 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Kor Haven
2 Plateau
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Marsh Flats
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
3 Leyline of Sanctity <- against Storm/Burn
3 Ethersworn Canonist <- against Storm
2 Boil or 2 Decree of Justice <- against slow blue-based control
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Warmth <- against Zoo/Burn/Dragon Stompy

Meekstone: Buys a lot of time, and helps when you can't resolve Humility
Magma Jet: I play it over Helix, because I think the sry is needed more than 3 life
Kor Haven: Was a random play, but I'll keep it. It has won me some games.
Flagstones: Great synery with Goblin Trenches

AlterEgo

12-03-2010, 02:53 PM

Either a Stroke of Genius or one of blackout...:
Couldn't we utilize Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows? Recurable removal is certainly not bad - or would it hurt the Mountain count too much?

GGoober

12-03-2010, 03:07 PM

rolling earthquake Can this be Earthquake?? :(

AlterEgo

12-03-2010, 03:44 PM

rolling earthquake Can this be Earthquake?? :(

Can be.
But the more flying nuisances are there in your area, the less useful it becomes. That's why I replaced it with Firespout, which does its job quite well.

94teen

12-05-2010, 10:01 AM

What do you think of Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire in this deck? It might let you cut down a bit on the Magma Jets/1cc Removal, and it seems like it's a huge beating for creature decks, especially with Humility.

How is 4 horizon canopy treating you? It seems like 2 or 3 would be plenty, since the deck looks pretty mana intensive. Would cutting one or two canopies for more basics make the mana base less painful/more consistent?

Nelis

12-14-2010, 05:26 AM

If Humility is one of this deck's main strategies wouldn't Goblin Sharpshooter be a good inclusion?

practical joke

12-14-2010, 05:39 AM

If Humility is one of this deck's main strategies wouldn't Goblin Sharpshooter be a good inclusion?

I have no clue how a 1/1 vanilla for 2R would improve that situation?

Zork

12-14-2010, 05:49 AM

Under Humility, Sharpshooter is a vanilla 1/1, so no.

Nelis

12-14-2010, 05:53 AM

Under Humility, Sharpshooter is a vanilla 1/1, so no.

What a fucking Brainfart. Another option could be Pyrokinesis.

AlterEgo

12-14-2010, 06:32 AM

Watcher487

12-14-2010, 09:11 AM

What are people's thoughts on adding Black to the list via Vindicate, Diabolic Edict and Extirpate in the board?

Nelis

12-14-2010, 09:42 AM

I'd rather use Pyroclasm, Tremor or even Seismic Shudder than Pyrokinesis. It either costs SIX mana (far too much) or pitching a red card (which we simply can't afford).
Sure, you can almost say the same about Force of Will, which nobody questions, but I see no need of being able to shoot four X/1s on turn zero.

I think with Firespout we're on the right path.

It just seems like such a waste to me to get rid of our own creatures as well. But I guess its possible to give one of our tokens +3+3 with Espeth and play a Firespout after that. But I'll dig into Gatherer later on to try to find alternatives to Pyrokinesis.

AlterEgo

12-14-2010, 12:32 PM

Well, there's good old Arc Lightning...
And for me Firespout has never been a problem to any Elspeth tokens. As you said, I just gave them +3/+3 and Flying - and then nuked all opposing creatures... without using green mana. You generally don't control more than one token at any given time.

@Black
Adding green seems natural if you're already using Firespouts - but adding black, too... well, I fear it makes the mana base even more shaky and seeing we produce next to no card advantage...
Nevertheless I like the idea of having access to Bitterblossom and Vindicate.

MrShine

12-14-2010, 08:17 PM

What about adding Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows? It gives you great game vs aggro (obviously), helps mop up after Humility, is a [Marginal] source of card advantage, etc. Mostly I just think the deck needs a little more brokenness ;)

As a plus this would also get us G for Firespout... a Minus would be added Wasteland vulnerability (although there IS needle, as yougo said) (Edit - and Mountain Count)

If for some reason we want to start playing Green, I would start at Grove + Fires, and look to Horizon Canopy + Crucible as card advantage (and securing Grove vs LD)

EDIT - Sorry, somehow missed the other Punishing Fire suggestions earlier. Maybe multiple suggestions means its a good idea?

AlterEgo

12-15-2010, 03:01 AM

Indeed I'm trying to include it. At least in theory, but until now I haven't found a satisfying configuration.
- Because of lacking card draw we need a full play set of Grove (or at the very least three of them).
- Because of Koth we need Mountains.
- Because of SDTop we need fetch lands.
- Because of Humility we want Factories.
- For card draw we want Canopy.

This is a conflict, because these are way too many lands - and adding Wasteland (which I thought of, too) is a no go.

Possible solution: Knight of the Reliquary?
We can add the lands as one- or two-offs, and have another Win Condition. I think, I'm going to try it, despite the obvious conflict with Humility.

Watcher487

12-15-2010, 08:37 AM

I understand how you feel with it being a little spread thin, but here is what I'm currently running as of right now...

2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
3 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

3 Ajani Vengeant
4 Lightning Helix
4 Vindicate
3 Firespout
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana Vess
2 Chandra Nalaar
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares

While I would love to run Grove - Punish as well it's way too much of a hardship to add it considering it's unfetchable, counterproductive, and personally it's horrid except against Aggro... which we should already excel at in the first place.

Broham

12-16-2010, 05:30 PM

I guess this is my home for awhile. If anybody is curious about looking up old lists for ideas, this deck started out long ago as Ivory Gargoyle + Jokulhaups. You could google that or Jokugoyle, whatever. When Invasion was on the scene it was called the Trenches deck, as Goblin Trenches was a popular win condition for the deck. Control the aggro matchup and blow up the board over and over while recurring your win cons or just have invincible win cons. Lol @ Pink Hammer.

Currently, I'm running this with Desolation Giant and Chimeric Idol to win the aggro matchup, which is not only prevalent in my local meta, but it seems to be all there is, lol. I wish I could ramp up faster but I have to keep reminding myself that I am playing defense most of the time. Right now I'm trying to decide if I like Thawing Glaciers or Scrying Sheets more. Also, I think that Ajani Vengeant is the best planeswalker for this kind of deck. He offers creature control with the first 2 abilities and basically ends the game with the 3rd ability. That ultimate is incredibly underrated.

AlterEgo

12-17-2010, 12:31 AM

Ajani's ultimate is not incredibly underrated, it's just incredibly hard to ramp up to it. You need four turns, five to keep him alive afterwards.
Don't know, if I play him the wrong way, but most of the time he's just an overcosted Lightning Helix for me.

dsck

12-17-2010, 03:24 AM

Currently, I'm running this with Desolation Giant and Chimeric Idol to win the aggro matchup, which is not only prevalent in my local meta, but it seems to be all there is, lol.

Doesnt Desolation Giant suck under humility as triggered abilites dont work?

Broham

12-17-2010, 02:15 PM

Doesnt Desolation Giant suck under humility as triggered abilites dont work?

That's true, but I don't run Humility. I run a ton of removal to deal with their threats and my WOG with legs.

Greenpoe

12-18-2010, 05:27 PM

I tried out the deck today, and I gotta say I love it. My first impression was that it looked like a pile, but after I gave it a shot and I can't believe how well it does against aggro and control. Your opponent goes T3 Show and Tell into Emrakul? You drop Humility. He cries. I think Oblivion Ring is necessary, as 3 mana for a removal spell is worth it when it can take out anything, and I definitely like Magma Jet over Lightning Helix. Plus, it's just awesome to see Chandra playable in any deck, let alone a Legacy deck.

Nelis

12-21-2010, 03:27 PM

I've put together my own version of the deck and this is what I ended up with:

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant.
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Humility
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Firespout
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Mox Diamond
1 Plateau
2 Flooded Strand
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Arid Mesa
6 Mountain
5 Plains

The Mox Diamonds help speeding up the deck and also come in handy once in a while for Explosives on three.

I've added 2 Enlightened Tutor for some flexibility. They also help to avoid multiple Crucibles and will also be part of my sideboard solution towards combo. I'm thinking of putting another Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard and complement that with stuff like Chalice of the Void, graveyard removal, Thorn of Amethyst and such.

I am undecided on the Helixes because when on the draw they're no help against a turn one Lackey. I might replace them with Lightning Bolt.

I've tested somewhat vs Goblins and Zoo which are fairly simple match-ups because of Humility. Goblins are a bit tougher matchup than Zoo especially when multiple Rishadan Ports are involved combined with Aether Vial and/or Goblin Lackey. I also tested against a Pox deck and that's very winnable too. Haven't tested the deck against Merfolk yet so maybe its necessary to add 2 Volcanic Fallout in the sideboard. They'll also be an extra help vs Goblins.

My version does lean very much on Humility and I guess that's also the decks weakness.

kiblast

12-22-2010, 06:45 AM

Nelis

12-22-2010, 08:05 AM

Just stumbled upon this thread, and I have to say that this deck seems very interesting and reliable.
I'd really toss in the Scrying sheets draw engine instead or in addition of Horizon Canopy, and at the same time play more basics. We already play Top in here so Scrying sheets is helpful. Playing more basics helps us being Waste proof (of course) and at the same time improves the Scrying Sheets engine. I mean, we are even playing the full set of Diamonds to fix our mana and to have bigger EE's.Wich leads us to my next question: is the full set of Mox Diamond mandatory? are they really useful? I understand that we are slow as fuck and want to drop our 4cc bombs as soon as we can, but aren't they a bit fragile? considering the amount of Deeds and EE in the current Meta?

I have no previous experience at all (in any deck) with the Scrying Sheets engine but if you run more basics (which means less fetchlands) will Top still be as effective?

And if you put in the SS engine will you still play Crucible of Worlds? I haven't experienced real problems from Wasteland even without help of Crucible. I use the fetch lands and top to dig for answers and Crucible really helps with that. It happened quite often that I was able to dig for a hard needed Humility or Firespout.

I guess you could take out one Mox Diamond because its a bad top deck but later on I usually just shuffle it away with a fetch land. Does the metagame feature so many Deeds? I mostly read that people are playing less copies because its so slow.

kiblast

12-22-2010, 12:13 PM

I have no previous experience at all (in any deck) with the Scrying Sheets engine but if you run more basics (which means less fetchlands) will Top still be as effective?

And if you put in the SS engine will you still play Crucible of Worlds? I haven't experienced real problems from Wasteland even without help of Crucible. I use the fetch lands and top to dig for answers and Crucible really helps with that. It happened quite often that I was able to dig for a hard needed Humility or Firespout.

I guess you could take out one Mox Diamond because its a bad top deck but later on I usually just shuffle it away with a fetch land. Does the metagame feature so many Deeds? I mostly read that people are playing less copies because its so slow.

Firstly, more basics does not demand less fetchlands. For example you could always use a configuration like this:

4x Arid Mesa
1x W fetch
1x R fetch
7th fetch R or W depending on what you need more.

6 Snow Covered Mountains
6 Snow Covered Plains
1-2x Plateau
1-2x Scrying Sheets
2x Horizon Canopy (I realize this is very strong in deckthinning in conjunction with Crucible)

24-25 Lands I think is reasonable if you want to properly support Scrying Sheets and Moxes. I wonder if we could even play a singleton Academy Ruins (U mana provided by moxen of course ) to have more reliability in late game and more redundancy.

Top is effective, but as you say you need to pack a nice number of fetches to have it run properly, mostly because we can't run Ponder. As a shuffle effect we only have Enlightened Tutors (I'd play em as a 3x for sure, now I'm playing UWx Landstill and that card is too good to be out of our 60). I'd play only a singleton Crucible too.

AlterEgo

12-22-2010, 04:18 PM

4x Arid Mesa
1x W fetch
1x R fetch
7th fetch R or W depending on what you need more.

6 Snow Covered Mountains
6 Snow Covered Plains
1-2x Plateau
1-2x Scrying Sheets
2x Horizon Canopy

I think Scrying Sheets with only 12 scry-able lands is not enough. That's roughly 1/5 of the deck and with only 1-2 Plateaus we'd also end up fetching for basics most of the time. Even with a Top the Sheets will be dead far too often.
Quinn plays a full FOUR Sheets with something around 16-18 snow plains - one third of the deck being snow means a high chance to see a snow card everytime they spin the Top. One fifth... well, you can calculate the odds yourselves.

Also: you forgot Mishra's Factory, which imho is a must-play whenever Humility is involved.

I'd suggest something like this:
8-10 fetch (4 Mesa, 2-4 Heath, 1-3 Foothills)
2-4 Plateau
4 Mishra
3 Horizon Canopy (maybe swap one for a Savannah)
3 Mountain
3 Plains
With a total of 24-25 lands, as you suggested

On Diamonds - imho a Mox is useful in three cases:
1) speedup
2) mana fixing
3) dump excess lands
Neither of those is really needed in this deck. There's no 2-drop worth the card disadvantage caused by Mox Diamond.

Enlightened Tutor:
Good option, definitely worth trying.

kiblast

12-22-2010, 04:52 PM

I think Scrying Sheets with only 12 scry-able lands is not enough. That's roughly 1/5 of the deck and with only 1-2 Plateaus we'd also end up fetching for basics most of the time. Even with a Top the Sheets will be dead far too often.
Quinn plays a full FOUR Sheets with something around 16-18 snow plains - one third of the deck being snow means a high chance to see a snow card everytime they spin the Top. One fifth... well, you can calculate the odds yourselves.

Also: you forgot Mishra's Factory, which imho is a must-play whenever Humility is involved.

I'd suggest something like this:
8-10 fetch (4 Mesa, 2-4 Heath, 1-3 Foothills)
2-4 Plateau
4 Mishra
3 Horizon Canopy (maybe swap one for a Savannah)
3 Mountain
3 Plains
With a total of 24-25 lands, as you suggested

On Diamonds - imho a Mox is useful in three cases:
1) speedup
2) mana fixing
3) dump excess lands
Neither of those is really needed in this deck. There's no 2-drop worth the card disadvantage caused by Mox Diamond.

Enlightened Tutor:
Good option, definitely worth trying.

Umh. I see your point and i think you are right. I would not play 8-10 fetches though. I think we should really stick to 7. I don't like the fact that fetches n. = Basics + Duals n., to me it would be better a proportion of 1(fetch) to 1.5 (basics+ duals). Basically you think that Horizon+8 fetches digging > Scrying Sheets digging ?
Also it is true that i forgot Mishra, the full set is nedeed for sure, it works too goodl under Humility. I still think that 4 Plateaus are too many, maybe 2 is the correct number as we should'nt want to see them in multiples early game to minimize the impact of Wasteland, wich in early game is a pain in the ass for this deck who wants to dump his 4cc bombs as early as it can.

Nelis

12-23-2010, 04:38 AM

On Diamonds - imho a Mox is useful in three cases:
1) speedup
2) mana fixing
3) dump excess lands
Neither of those is really needed in this deck. There's no 2-drop worth the card disadvantage caused by Mox Diamond.

Im not sure if I agree.

With so many important cards that have a cc of 4 a speedup of any kind is very most welcome. In my opinion the sooner I can put down a Humility the better, a play like that gives us a lot of breathing room. Its not that mox diamonds are only useful for 2 drops (Id like to know your reasoning why they're only useful for 2 drops).

Also since the deck runs Helixes and not Bolts the lack of a turn one burn spell especially vs Goblins can be devastating. But I guess we can run Bolt instead of Helixes if a turn 1 burn spell is really necessary. And being able to use Sensei's Divining Top on turn 1 can also be a huge benefit.

If mana fixing isn't an issue why do you feel the need to use Plateaus? I don't feel the need of running them at all. But then again I suppose that's probably because I run Mox Diamond. I guess it comes down to which card we believe is more fragile. I think having a land wasted happens more often than an artifact destroyed.

The card disadvantage is compensated by Crucible of World.

But I'll give the deck a try without Mox Diamond as well.

AlterEgo

12-23-2010, 04:46 AM

I do believe Scrying Sheets is a better draw engine than Horizon Canopy - only not in a base two colored deck, that also wants Mishra's Factory and fetches. And I said 8-10 fetches because of Sensei's Divining Top, although one could play less with Crucible and E-Tutors on board. Maybe even 6 would be enough.

I'll just throw a list into the ring:
//25 lands
4 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Plains

//5 Planeswalkers
1 Chandra Nalaar
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Koth of the Hammer

//15 Instants
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Helix

//6 Sorceries
2 Banefire
4 Firespout

//3 Enchantments
3 Humility

//7 Artifacts
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Maybe Ajani instead of Chandra, Magma Jet instead of Helix and one more Top and/or EE for (???)

Edit@Nelis:
Things to power out turn one, helped by a Mox Diamond: Trinisphere (in Stax, of course), Chalice of the Void, Dark Confidant (e.g. Aggro Loam), Tarmogoyf (although only a 1/2).
Is it good to cast Humility one turn earlier? Sure, it is - but you always have to cut other important spells for the Moxen... either control elements or win conditions - cutting either doesn't seem very appealing to me

Also, why turn one burn if you have 8 Swords available...? Seriously, would you keep a hand without a StoP or Path on the draw?
Mana fixing isn't needed exactly BECAUSE of Plateaus and fetches - imho a two color mana base doesn't need more than that. Especially if you think of the synergy between fetches and Sensei's Top.
Of course, if you don't possess any Duals, but have Diamonds, then go ahead and play them...

Nelis

12-23-2010, 05:23 AM

I think Ajani Vengeant is so much better than Chandra if only because it can come down a turn earlier..

- The 1 damage to a player is basically irrelevant. Three damage and gaining 3 life is much better in itself. And that it can be used on creatures and players is such a big benefit.
- There might be some situations where being able to do 4+ damage to a creature is better than 3 damage but they're much less common and there's always STP for bigger creatures.
- And there's always Ajani's tap ability when an opponent has a big creature in play you cant get rid of. I also think that Ajani's tap ability is much more useful vs control and combo machups than being able to deal x damage to a creature they don't play anyway.
- Chandra's ultimate might be better. But I don't know which ultimate is easier to reach. But since you'll be using the first 2 abilities much more often I think the third ability isnt that important

I also think you should run a 2nd Elspeth because as soon as you have gained control of the game you want to finish your opponent as quickly as possible. Attacking with 5/5 flying Mishra's factories and/or 7/7 flying Mountains does just that. And the ability to make 1/1 creatures shouldn't be underestimated especially with Humility in play.

EDIT: I thought I saw 1 Elspeth in your list. Never mind, then.

On Mox Diamond, there's some added benefits to playing Mox Diamond:
- 4 more 'green' mana sources for Firespout and even the possibility of a 4th color for EE.
- Depending on how we want to construct the sideboard but the speed up might be very relevant for the combo matchup.

I tried Magma Jet but I don't feel they are nececary when we make use of Top. And also the 2 damage just doesn't cut it when it comes to killing off zoo's creatures.

Moczoc

12-25-2010, 05:13 PM

I won most of the games with Goblin Trenches, you should really try it.

4 Horizon Canopy was a mistake, I'll go down to 3

And Magma Jet is really better than Helix in this deck.

yougo

01-10-2011, 05:14 AM

Wow i see there as been a lot of action without me noticing it, first i would like to thank you all and happy new year to everyone!

Ok i was pretty busy lately and was ''off '' magic for a while but still i loved the deck more than ever, especialy since the banned of survival, i had a reall hard time againts this deck but now that this ''thing'' is from the past i think that pink hammer could be a very strong pick.

First of all ive playing this and only this deck since a long time, why? Cause to me it has been the funniest most interactive and probebly one of the most complex deck ive ever played, and of course over the month my list have changed so here the new fresh update,

The list im actualy playing

creature 1

1 eternal dragon

planeswalker 7

2 ajani vangeant
1 chandra nalaar
2 elspeth knight errant
2 koth of the hammer

disrupt 22

4 sword
4 path to exiled
3 oblivion ring
3 rolling earthquake
4 lightning helix
2 humilitty
2 cursed scroll

spell 6

2 decree of justice
4 top

land 25

3 plain
3 mountain
3 arid mesa
3 flooded strand
1 wooded foothill
2 scalding tarn
4 plateau
4 mishra's factory
2 mutavault

sideboard

1 banefire
4 mind break trap
3 pyrostatic pillar
3 red elemantal blast
2 pyroblast
2 ray of distortion

The o ring are new addon and i believe they are amazing, they deal with planeswalker and lame permanant you dont wannna see, well overall great

cursed scroll: probebly a lot of you realize the with this deck you dont draw, however you get to create you own card advantage by having permenant on the boar or bid spell spell that clear a lot of thing in other word, fast youl run out of card, thats why a ard like cursed scroll is an obvious choice it seals lategame matches (and as we know the goal of the deck is to goin lategame) and it's booth good agaits aggro and control. The right card for the right deck

eternal dragon : well this card is good for a lot of reason shuffle your deck act as a plain and is a late game win condition... why not ?

the mutavault: it's always good to have man land agaits aggro it will give you more blocker and more blocker means time and time mean late game and late game means win and agaits control it simply mean creature wich is incountrable, but where mutavault really shine is agaits merfolk LULZ just the look on you opponant face when your vault is now a 4/4 island walk wich get pump by a factory is priceless, mutavault alone make the merfolk matchup just stupid.

As for the side board its the usual stuff i was playing its very anti combo oriented, the trap are just amazing and the pillar back with a blast is almost game win agaits any type of storm deck, the ray of distortion are for countertop matchup and the banefire is the alternate kill for slow control deck.

Well thanks folk for reading the whole thing and i will test your suggetion ill try to be back soon

Yougo

Nelis

01-10-2011, 06:12 AM

Edit@Nelis:
Things to power out turn one, helped by a Mox Diamond: Trinisphere (in Stax, of course), Chalice of the Void, Dark Confidant (e.g. Aggro Loam), Tarmogoyf (although only a 1/2).
Is it good to cast Humility one turn earlier? Sure, it is - but you always have to cut other important spells for the Moxen... either control elements or win conditions - cutting either doesn't seem very appealing to me

Also, why turn one burn if you have 8 Swords available...? Seriously, would you keep a hand without a StoP or Path on the draw?
Mana fixing isn't needed exactly BECAUSE of Plateaus and fetches - imho a two color mana base doesn't need more than that. Especially if you think of the synergy between fetches and Sensei's Top.
Of course, if you don't possess any Duals, but have Diamonds, then go ahead and play them...

I think a very good question would the amount of win conditions we need. I run 6 Planeswalkers en 4 Mishra's factories. ATM I feel that's enough.

I own all duals exept for B/U so that's not why I don't run duals. The Mox Diamonds function in the first place as speed-up and as mana fixing only in the second place (with the added bonus of having a 3rd or even 4th color for EE). To me the strongest control element is Humility, the sooner it hits the better and this is the main reason why I like the Diamonds. But I am running 3 Diamonds now instead of 4. I also have to test more vs control (most up to now testing has been vs aggro) so maybe I'll change my mind in the future.

I actually like the fact that my version of the deck isn't really Wasteland sensitive. And there's been little occasions that I needed mana-fixing. I actually think its possible to run only basics (and fetch) in this deck.

I run 4 Swords to Plowshares, no Paths. So basically I would be substituting the Paths for Lightning Bolts. I don't feel like running Path to Exile because I don't want to speed op my opponent by giving him more mana. Especially against Merfolk (which I find a very hard match up) and to lesser extent goblins. Besides Lightning Bolt can be used as a finisher and Path cannot. But whichever way, I think we do agree that the deck needs 8 1 drop removal.

It really depends on the matchup whether I keep a hand without STP or Path when I'm on the draw. But like I said my Lightning Bolts would be your Paths so against aggro I would need to mulligan into at least one spot removal (whether it be bolt or STP). Theres basically one problem creature which can come down the first few turns and needs an Path that is Phyrexian Dreadnought. In all other cases Lightning Bolt is sufficient. Lightning Bolt is also better vs combo.

AlterEgo

01-10-2011, 06:47 AM

Nelis, can you give a decklist?
I'm beginning to get more and more interested in the Moxen+basics variant, I just have serious problems finding enough space.
Especially as this might enable us to play Blood Moons.

Nelis

01-10-2011, 07:39 AM

Yes, at the moment it is:

//25 lands
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Plateau
6 Mountain
5 Plains

//6 Planeswalkers
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Koth of the Hammer

//10 Instants
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix

//11 artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Mox Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//4 Sorceries
4 Firespout

//4 Enchantments
4 Humility

EDIT:
It's very tricky to play Blood Moon because you need your fetchlands in combination with Top to dig through your library to find answers. This is something you need to take into account when you intend to run Blood Moon. You would probably need to put a bit more emphasis on Plains in your land count if you want to include Blood Moon.

EDIT2, Some remarks on my list:
Maybe I'm running a land too little, it hasn't bothered me yet but it might in the future.
I'm still thinking about the burn package. I'm inclined to change the Lightning Helixes for Lightning Bolts.
I probably have to tweak a few things, maybe go to 3 Humility and/or take out the EE and Pithing Needle package or a Top maybe.

My next goal is to test the deck vs control to see how it fares before I make any the changes mentioned above.

somethingdotdotdot

01-10-2011, 12:21 PM

grahf

01-10-2011, 03:13 PM

I think that kind of draw engine only works in stax-style or heavy permanent decks where you want to play out all your cards immediately. Your cards disappear if you don't use them under Uba Mask, so you don't get to hold onto instants. I suppose the deck could be reworked heavily, or you could do Sylvan+Abundance. Mask is certainly a lot more disruptive which probably makes it more worth the 4 mana.

Wall of Omens could be interesting, except for the deck's reliance on Humility.

Nelis

01-10-2011, 05:24 PM

Since this deck is looking for a way to draw cards...has anyone tried using the old suntower engine? Uba mask+Sylvan library. Replacing the tops with sylvan libraries and the crucibles with uba mask. It seems like the deck has a lot of ways to ramp up mana fast, so the 4 cc shouldn't be too much of a problem. Sylvan library is also not very color intensive at 1G. Once it comes online it effectively gives you 2 extra cards per turn. It also allows the horizon canopy slots to become taiga's in order to up the mountain count for koth's ability.

I don't know about that engine but I am actually reconsidering the Horizon Canopies. I hardly ever have the time to use them because I either want to play a Mishra's Factory from my graveyard or I want to get back a fetch land so I can shuffle my deck to dig for much needed answers to improve my board position. I also do not like the damage I get from canopies when they're in my opening hand and are the only white mana source. It doesn't happen often but when it happens it can be just the difference between winning and losing. Do people have same experiences ?

On the subject of mountains for Koth. In my experience Koth's ultimate isn't used often. Most times I win by attacking with 7/7 flying mountains. When I use Koth's ultimate ability it its usually for creature control which means 3 or 4 mountains are often enough. The thing is to get 2 white mana sources on turn 4 after that you can fetch for mountains mostly anyway.