Non-Survival Ooze [Archive] - Page 2

Karhumies

01-24-2011, 07:43 PM

@ pippo and Jander: Congrats on your finishes! Do you think that MD Shallow Grave over MD Exhume would have helped versus Knight of the Reliquary/Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog?

Based on the successful tournament reports, this seems to be the core MD shell:

// Ooze combo (14)
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume/Shallow Grave

// Disruption (8)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will

// Mana (22+)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 City of Traitors
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
?Chrome Mox?
?Extra fetches?
?Red splash?

Filter (11+)
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
2+ Ponder
1+ Personal Tutor

Other?

This makes up for 55 fixed MD slots. The remaining 5 usually consist of extra P.Tutor/Ponder and mana (Chrome Mox/lands).

The SB strategies vary wildly. Here's a quick analysis:
+means Successful
- means Unsuccessful

Large, varied metagame:
+ SnT-Emrakul (full T), with Progenitus backup to push through Jace, Karakas
+ Doomsday-Emrakul (semi-T), with Pithing Needle and Cloud of Faeries backup to push through Wasteland
+ Burning Wish-SnT-Emrakul/Progenitus (semi-T). Although, the SB slot requirement for B.Wish is large -> whether this is enough "bang for the buck" or not is contested.
- Non-T, fighting the hate without transformation. Hate is too varied and too difficult to fight without plan B.
- SnT-Hive Mind-Pact. 2-card combo is strictly better than 3-card combo in a large and varied meta.

Small metagame:
+ Helm-line (semi-T) in a meta with heavy Dredge, Reanimator
+ Non-T, in a meta without grave hate
potentially + SnT-Hive Mind-Pact in a meta heavy with Jacestill, SnT
- SnT-Emrakul/Progenitus in meta heavy with Jacestill, Stiflenought, Solidarity

Untested:
Helm-line (full T)
Painter-stone: on paper, thought to be too easy to disrupt compared to other alternatives.

Jander78

01-24-2011, 07:56 PM

@ pippo and Jander: Congrats on your finishes! Do you think that MD Shallow Grave over MD Exhume would have helped versus Knight of the Reliquary/Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog?
I do think Shallow Grave would be stronger against Knight since you could respond to their Knight Activation with the win.

pippo84

01-25-2011, 04:37 AM

Quote Originally Posted by Karhumies View Post
@ pippo and Jander: Congrats on your finishes! Do you think that MD Shallow Grave over MD Exhume would have helped versus Knight of the Reliquary/Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog?

I still didn't find any Shallow Grave or I would have swapped them over Exhume right away! Anyways yes, having Shallow Grave would have helped a lot!

Anyways just for some info my main plan post side was to fight hate anyways and the Doomsday was just a plan B. For this reason I like Pithing Needle in my side, it's useful both to fight GY hate and Wasteland.

Btw I'll try and fit 2 Duress in my SB if I'll play Spell Pierce MD..

pippo84

02-03-2011, 12:26 PM

Just FYI I'll test this SB when I have time:

4 Pithing Needle
3 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Emrakul
2 Duress
3 Bounce Spells (Probably 2 Echoing Truth and 1 Wipe Away).

I was also thinking of adding 1 Bounce MD. Normally it isn't needed, but it would be nice to have an out to a resolved problem. I know that a 1 of is hard to find, but with Lim-Dul's Vaul it can be possible.

So my main should be the same as the last I posted - 3 Pact of Negation + 3 Spell Pierce (or +2 Spell Pierce and + 1 Bounce).

Also, has anyone considered Stifle MD? I already wrote about it, but didn't receive answers on it. I have to say I didn't test it, but it could be a nice surprise for the opponent targeting Fetchlands, Bojuka Bog or Knight of the Reliquiary and also Wastelands.

Thoughts? :tongue:

rufus

02-03-2011, 01:01 PM

Probably not worth it and too slow but Myr Welder will play around pithing needle as long as you're OK not using Shallow Grave.

Karhumies

02-03-2011, 01:42 PM

Also, has anyone considered Stifle MD? I already wrote about it, but didn't receive answers on it. I have to say I didn't test it, but it could be a nice surprise for the opponent targeting Fetchlands, Bojuka Bog or Knight of the Reliquiary and also Wastelands.

Thoughts? :tongue:

If I want to delay the opponent, I would rather run
:b: Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek

If I want to have a cmc = 1 blue card, I would rather have MD
:u: Ponder, Personal Tutor

If the opponent is running Wasteland, I would rather just fetch for basics.

If I want utility, I would rather run 1x MD bounce.

The problem is, Stifle has no synergy with the rest of our deck and it makes for a horrible midgame topdeck. And not that many decks have a faster clock in G1 than we do, in the first place!

The only reason why I would run it is to fight gy hate...but even then, Shallow Grave is better IMO. Stifle also misses Leyline of the Void & Wheel of Sun and Moon.

ivanpei

02-08-2011, 02:15 AM

IMO, wizards likes to shit on combo so much it pisses me off. First they print necrotic ooze, then the next damn set, they're like: "Oops, we printed something that enables a pretty decent combo, lets print some hate!" and voila: Phyrexian revoker. IMO, we should take this into account and not play activated abilities after board, so no ooze combo, no grindstone, no helm etc. Show and tell still works though, so we might want to go back to playing that.

datanaga

02-08-2011, 04:36 AM

IMHO Pithing Needle is still better sideboard card than Phyrexian Revoker for the most decks, so it is not a strong reason to stop playing activated abilities after board due to him, btw Revoker doesn't stop Shelldock Isle...

pippo84

02-08-2011, 04:36 AM

@ivanpei: I still think that fighting GY is a good way to go if you have a plan B that doesn't require the whole deck to change. Anyways that Phyrexian Revoker is just like a Pithing Needle so I don't really see the prblem. They could Needle Necrotic Ooze before.. Just play bounce spells!

Anyways I don't think that anyone really cut "plan B" in the meanwhile.

Karhumies

02-09-2011, 08:03 AM

@ Ivanpei:

Against us, Phyrexian Revoker is
- a Pithing Needle which costs 2 instead of 1 (which is good for us)
- still an artifact, just like P.Needle, so it is killed by the same hate
- it CAN hit Lotus Petal (unlike P.Needle), but we don't really care about this
- killable with the exact same creature hate which would also kill opposing Peacekeeper (which foils the Emrakul plan)
- not hit by Duress (unlike P.Needle), which we usually/generally do not even run in the list anyway. So we don't really care about this, either.

People are not going to play 4x P.Needle AND 4x P.Revoker. Even if they make a 2-2 split, for us it's still the same as 4x P.Needle. Except that Revoker becomes active slower.

As long as people do not start running P.Revoker in MD (on a related note: I am developing a metalcraft deck which will start running it 4x MD), I do not see any change to the status quo made by the printing of P.Revoker.

ivanpei

02-09-2011, 06:36 PM

I'm assuming revoker will be md. Thus the sb plan b should try to dodge needle effects. The dday shelldock and show and tell plan are the ones that do and should be played. I'm not saying fighting hate isn't a valid option, just that te plan b's should be non-graveyard and non-activated ability based: show and tell.

Karhumies

02-10-2011, 06:48 PM

I'm assuming revoker will be md.

If the strategy is a surprise for your opponent in G1 (and it SHOULD be), Revoker should not make a difference because the opponent should not able to name the card correctly. UNLESS the opponent either
-knows you are playing Ooze regularly in your local area
-sucessfully resolves a Duress-effect, sees one of the 4 creatures we run, AND knows based on that information what deck we are running

...and even then, you can just tutor for MD bounce. Either P.Tutor -> Eye of Nowhere (1x should be enough) or LDV -> Echoing Truth to get rid of multiples at once (in which case 2x sounds better in order not to lose too much life with LDV). Or P.Tutor -> Maelstrom Pulse if you like to run a light green splash instead of a red one.

But nevertheless, we have 4x Thoughtseize and 4x FoW for Revoker already. Shouldn't that be enough?

ivanpei

02-10-2011, 07:28 PM

I agree we can deal with it. I'm just saying that after board, show and tell plan seems the best and dodges most forms of hate you will be seeing. I'm not discrediting the other alternate combos, but with more and more activated ability hate out there, it seems best to play a combo that is immune to it.

pippo84

02-11-2011, 04:39 AM

I am currently playing with 1 Wipe Away MD. I dislike sorcery bounce spells so the choice could be: Wipe Away, Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor.

Chain goes under Chalice at 1, Echoing Truth is good and Wipe Away is more Mana Intensive. Why did I chose the last one? Because it's split second and can dodge CB that is becoming more popular again.

Has anyone changed something in the list as lately?

Karhumies

02-12-2011, 10:05 PM

Has anyone changed something in the list as lately?

I suppose this deck could be made to turn into SnT-NO combo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19952-Show-and-Tell-Natural-Order) deck post-board.

Here is an untested sample version (based on the :r: splash version, except turned into :g: splash):

Main deck (60)
// Lands (18)
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

// Acceleration (8)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Petal

// Win condition (14)
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
1 Triskelion
1 Necrotic Ooze
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
*
// Disruption (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
*
// Filler (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
2 Ponder

// Sideboard(15)
SB: 4 Natural Order
SB: 4 Show and Tell
SB: 3 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
SB: 2 Progenitus
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Dryad Arbor

Standard SB procedure:
-1 Polluted Delta
+1 Dryad Arbor
-14 Ooze win condition
+14 SnT-NO win condition

death

02-12-2011, 10:20 PM

So post board you have 4 Birds and a Dryad Arbor to Natural Order. Let us know if that works for you.

Karhumies

02-12-2011, 11:46 PM

So post board you have 4 Birds and a Dryad Arbor to Natural Order. Let us know if that works for you.

It's possible to MD -4 Thoughtseize, +4 Xantid Swarm. That should solve the creature issue, although it does make G1 performance slightly worse. After that, the deck is running 9 small green creatures, who can double-act as chumpers. IMO, chumping seems to improve the G2 SnT plan performance quite significantly.

Karhumies

02-17-2011, 08:18 AM

With the printing of Phyrexian Revoker, mono-color decks, especially black, have become slightly more viable again.

Here's a sideboard tip for UB builds with or without a SnT SB plan:

1) Make your MD fetches UG and BG (= :g: is the "off-color")
2) Sideboard 1xDryad Arbor
uses: can be fetched to kill Revoker in declare blockers step (non-transitional), protection from Innocent Blood effects (SnT)
3) Complimentary SB 1x Reverent Silence gets rid of those pesky Leyline of the Voids. It's P.Tutorable, so it will sit safely on top of your library through black's Duress-effects. If you go the non-mana payment route, just make sure you will have enough fodder remaining in the deck post-SB to offset the opposing life gain without decking yourself.

ivanpei

02-17-2011, 07:20 PM

I still believe show and tell -> NO sideboard plan but the NO plan has benefits. These are the SBs I'd run if I was NO/Show and tell

Show and Tell:
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
1 Proggy
2 Duress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Daze

NO:
4 NO
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
4 Birds of paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Xantid Swarm

(Splash Green MD)

IMO Show and Tell plan is good vs all decks, a T3 emrakul is GG most of the time. As for the No plan, a turn 3 Progenitus does not get there some times. Also you are forced to splash green in your MD which makes you vulnerable to wasteland.

However, the NO plan has some benefits. IMO NO plan is better against control decks like counterbalance and jacestill. They will be boarding out STPs, so Xantid Swarm is boss. Also, You are assembling a 1-card win, which is much easier than a 2 card win. You can use your cantrips/tutors to find discard spells and protection instead of digging for your combo. Another trick for the NO lists is Terastodon. You simply cannot race zoo/folk/goblins. Terastodon comes in and blows up your own lands when you are behind. This gives you a 9/9 and 3 3/3s, which is usually enough to help race aggro.

For those who don't own Show and Tell or are facing alot of control, try the NO lists, they are pretty good. I've had alot of experience with them by playing the Show and Tell - Natural Order decks.

death

02-17-2011, 09:55 PM

Imo, the deck shouldn't be too fixated on Progenitus. Can a turn 3 Progenitus race goblins, zoo, or merfolk on the draw?

ivanpei

02-17-2011, 11:14 PM

Imo, the deck shouldn't be too fixated on Progenitus. Can a turn 3 Progenitus race goblins, zoo, or merfolk on the draw?

No, it can't, hence having to play terastodon. Like I said, IMO emrakul show plan is better overall, but the NO + Swarm plan is pretty good vs control too.

pippo84

02-18-2011, 05:50 AM

I di some testing yesterday against a friend that was playing Tempo ***** (UGB).

I have to say that the match is in their favour.. :frown:

They have Stifle + Wasteland and loads of Counters. Post board they also have access to Extirpate.. Probably playing Show and Tell would help against them, but even then, if they counter your SnT and then Extirpate it it's GG..

Karhumies

02-18-2011, 06:39 AM

Show and Tell:
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
1 Proggy
2 Duress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Daze

I would recommend replacing one of the cards with Terastodon. He blows up white lands to kill Peacekeeper in the upkeep, blows up Humility/Ensnaring Bridge, and provides additional blockers after opponent has taken out most of the critter removals after G1. He is also not hit by opposing Karakas (so you don't even need to blow that up :P). In practice, in SnT strategy Terastodon
1) can spare you from tutoring up bounce
2) provides an out when Emrakul as a single blocker will not prevent dying while opponent has lethal on board

They have Stifle + Wasteland and loads of Counters. Post board they also have access to Extirpate.. Probably playing Show and Tell would help against them, but even then, if they counter your SnT and then Extirpate it it's GG..
I have been thinking about playing 1x Natural Order or Eureka to supplement the SnT to diversify the outs versus Extirpate. But Natural Order requires green creatures to support it, Eureka costs a load of €, and I am not completely sure whether they are worth the SB slots anyway. Mana-wise, 4 SnT- 1 Doomsday combination seems to have much better synergy, anyway (D.Ritual->Doomsday works, D.Ritual->2GG doesn't).

nodahero

02-18-2011, 02:14 PM

As a side note Humility prevents Terastodon's ability from triggering. He loses the ability once he is in play.

Wait sec... Is that true?

Karhumies

02-18-2011, 06:25 PM

As a side note Humility prevents Terastodon's ability from triggering. He loses the ability once he is in play.

Wait sec... Is that true?

I had to check this from the How Humility works -thread, but you are correct. Even if Terastodon + Humility enter play simultaneously from SnT, the Terastodon CiP triggered ability never makes it into the stack.

So there is always need for a bounce spell.

pippo84

02-18-2011, 08:15 PM

Yep Terastodon doesn't work with Humility.

I have thought of playing Telepathy!!! Yes, exactly: lol.
Anyways it would help a lot if you don't find a Thoughtseize and can combo knowing what is in the opponent's hand!
Great tech to name the correct thing with Needle and look out for Extirpate! ;)

Yes, I know. Not very convincing, but I might give it a try!

jamis

02-19-2011, 11:48 PM

Going to start playing this sideboard

4 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
4 Pithing Needle
2 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul
1 Cloud of Fae

Opting to only go transformational against CounterbalanceTop and instead fight Ooze hate in the other matches. Stuck with DD over S&T for that reason and also to avoid Jace. Wipe Away and Pithing needle should be able to take care of Karakas as well as deal with the soft-lock. Still a dog to Dreadstill, but didn't feel comfortable in that match-up even with S&T.

Maindeck protection right now is 4 FoW, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Duress, so I should be able to handle Extirpate with discard, and needles and bounce should be able to handle whatever else.

Flex spots right now are 1 E. Truth, 1 Needle, and 1 Doomsday. I thought about including some Spell pierce or Dispel because I feel the combo matchup isn't as strong without Pierce in the main. Dispel and pierce could also be boarded in against blue decks. Dispel is better vs. Tendrils combo and control decks, and Pierce is better vs. non-ritual based combo and Tempo decks. Usually, I'm the only one playing combo in my meta though, so I'm hoping what I'm running now will be better vs. the blue decks than having the additional counterspells.

pippo84

02-21-2011, 08:08 AM

So I'm here to share some other experience with this deck.

I attended a 72 people tournament yesterday: here's a breif report.

Round 1: Dredge.
G1: I win the die roll and take his discard outlet. Then I Force a Cabal Therapy on him. He then plays Breakthrough and I combo ftw.
G2: He mulls at 6 and starts with Leyline of the Void in play. I look at my opening 7 and was happy. I combo on my third turn playing a Echoing Truth on his EoT.

Win 2-0

Round 2: Reanimator
G1: I Spell Pierce one of his spells and he gets a Iona on Black on his second turn.
G2: I thouhtseize something and combo on my 4th turn.
G3: He starts with Thoughtseize. I Force. My turn, draw, play City of Traitors, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive, Reanimate. GG. Win on turn 1! He shows me that he could get Iona on his turn 2.

Win: 2-1

Round 3: UGWB CounterTop
G1: I go turn 1 Thoughtseize and Win a counterwar on a Lim-Dul's Vault. Vault resolves and I win next turn.
G2: Here I play both the Combo that Shelldock-Isle plan B. He starts with Leyline in play. I have a Wipe Away and want to go through Doomsday. I get screwed not getting to 3 lands to play DD. (Opened with 2).
G3: I keep a greedy hand that has Force, a bounce spell and the combo in hand, 1 Land, 1 brainstorm and 1 ponder. I never get to see a second land, or a dark ritual.

Loss: 2-1

Round 4: Zoo
G1: He starts with Nacatl. I kept a hand with 1 land, 1 Dark Ritual, 1 Buried Alive, 1 Shallow Grave, Ponder and 1 Personal Tutor. I never see a second mana source to cast Shallow Grave or see a Reanimate.
G2: I mull and then I'm flooded with lands. Screw before, flood now. Wtf.

Loss: 2-0

Round 5: ProBant (NO with CB)
G1: He mulls, I keep. I have Force and Pierce and Toughtseize. He doesn't play..
G2: He starts with Noble Hierarch. I start with Thoughtseize. I then play Doomsday on my second turn. He tries a Natural Order that counter. I coul have let it pass and win anyways with Emrakul, but if he played Terastodon I would have lost. Emrakul swings hard.

Win: 2-0

Round 6: Eva Depths
G1: I mull to 4 and start with Island go. He starts with Swamp Duress. I Brainstorm in order to keep the deck secret. He then casts Thoughtseize on his next turn and I concede. He isn't sure on what I'm playing and puts me on ANT and sides Extirpate.
G2: I start with Thoughtseize, get Extirpate and then combo off next turn.
G3: This game was real fun. He starts with Discard that I Force. He gets 2 Dark Confidant on the Table and I cast Echoing Truth because I don't want him to draw 3 cards! I cast Lim-Dul to find Thoughtseize. I then win.

Win: 2-1

Round 7: Meandeck MUD
G1: I mull, force something, but never find a Reanimate/Shallow Grave even though he was relly slow. (Btw I had Buried Alive in hand and played cantrips to search for the missing piece).
G2: I mull to 4 and keep the following hand: 2 Lotus Petal, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder. I start with Lotus Petal Ponder. Shuffle. Draw nothing useful. Lotus Petal Brainstorm. See terrible cards. Lose.

Loss: 2-0

Ended with 12 points and 19th out of 72. If I would have won the last round I'd be 9th, so out of top8 anyways..

Here is the list I played:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
2 Ponder
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
1 Aquamoeba
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Necrotic Ooze

I've been in screw loads of times during this tournament. I also kept some very risky hands and got punished for this reason.
Spell Pierce was good but it isn't probably needed. Wipe Away was never useful.
I will add 2 Ponders and 1 Land in those 3 slots for more consistecy. I was also thinking of adding Chrome Mox in those slots, but I'm not convinced because of the card disadvantage.

Oh yes, the SB:

3 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
2 Duress
4 Pithing Needle.

Side note: I never saw a Pithing Needle all day (but boarded them in) !! Wtf.

ivanpei

02-21-2011, 08:33 PM

You are only playing 13 coloured land sources. Thats waaaay too dangerous. The ponders are good. I play 4. Also, you might want to swap the city of traitors to coloured mana. I play 16 lands: 8 fetch, 4 seas, 2 Swamp, 2 Island. This has been serving me fine. Spell pierce/ bounce should definitely be in the board.

pippo84

02-22-2011, 07:20 AM

jamis

02-24-2011, 08:04 AM

From the Reanimator thread:

To those who were wanting the Reanimator list from the Japanese Eternal Party website, it doesn't seem like a Reanimator list top 8'd at all. The event was won by BG Non-Survival (obviously) Ooze combo, and the rest of the decks were ANT, New Horizons hybrid, ANT again, Junk/The Rock, Supreme Blue, Team America and Zoo. I'm still looking though...

Maybe it was another tournament?

Anyone got a list?

forsmark

02-24-2011, 10:04 AM

Anyone got a list?

1st - オオニシタツヤ
DECK NAME - （KｏI）＜シゴトナウ
DECK DESIGNER - Morph

14Land

4 《汚染された三角州/Polluted Delta》
2 《血染めのぬかるみ/Bloodstained Mire》
3 《Underground Sea》
3 《沼/Swamp》
2 《島/Island》

4 Creature

1 《壊死のウーズ/Necrotic Ooze》
1 《朽ちゆくインプ/Putrid Imp》
1 《トリスケリオン/Triskelion》
1 《Phyrexian Devourer》

42Spell

4 《渦まく知識/Brainstorm》
4 《思案/Ponder》
4 《思考囲い/Thoughtseize》
4 《水蓮の花びら/Lotus Petal》
4 《暗黒の儀式/Dark Ritual》
3 《Lim-Dul's Vault》
2 《親身の教示者/Personal Tutor》
4《生き埋め/Buried Alive》
4 《再活性/Reanimate》
2 《死体発掘/Exhume》
2 《強迫/Duress》
3 《目くらまし/Daze》
2 《金属モックス/Chrome Mox》

Sideboard

4 《実物提示教育/Show and Tell》
3 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 《魅力的な執政官/Blazing Archon》
3 《呪文貫き/Spell Pierce》
1 《目くらまし/Daze》
1 《蒸気の連鎖/Chain of Vapor》
1 《残響する真実/Echoing Truth》
1 《ハーキルの召還術/Hurkyl's Recall》

SOURCE: http://bigmagic.blog116.fc2.com/blog-entry-37.html

Enjoy.

- forsmark

ivanpei

02-24-2011, 06:08 PM

forsmark

02-24-2011, 07:19 PM

Thanks for the list! No force? How odd. His disruption package is 4 seize, 2 duress, 3 daze. That's very odd. I think he dislikes the card disadvantage of force. Either that or he hates being forced to play a high blue count. The chromes IMO don't belong and should be ldv 4 and something else.

My thoughts exactly. I also feel he is light on the disruption package. However, it does kinda make sense not to play FoW. I find it hard to keep blue count high enough. If he was to add FoW to that list, it would probably be something like:

-2 Chrome Mox
-2 Duress
-1 Putrid Imp
-1 Ponder
+1 Aquamoeba
+4 Force of Will
+1 LDV

I like the thoughtseizes in here because they get rids of phyrexian revokers, which duress doesn't.

ivanpei

02-24-2011, 07:43 PM

I play 4 Seize, 4 Force and that's usually enough. MUD stompy has 4 revokers and 4 chalice which hurt. You need Thoughtseize and Force to consistently save your ass. My blue count is 19, which is just slicing it:

Blue: 19
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 LDV
2 Personal
4 Force
1 Aquamoeba

Rest of the list is just the usual fare. BTW, Blazing Archon in the Board is some hot tech. LDVing for it against aggro is GG. Sucks against control though. Terastodon might be better as it can nuke the important stuff like bridge or the opponent's lands.

forsmark

02-24-2011, 07:54 PM

I find it interesting that you're not playing Daze. Maybe I should test that out...

ivanpei

02-24-2011, 11:18 PM

What do you cut for Daze? If I had space, I'd definitely run daze. Here's the list (unchanged from like 2 months ago):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 LDV
2 Personal

1 Aquamoeba
1 Trisk
1 Devourer
1 Ooze

4 Reanimate
2 Exhume
4 Buried Alive
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Delta
2 Verdant
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp

This is my bare basic list. SB is transformational to Show and Tell. My targets are currently 4 Emrakul and 1 Progenitus. The 4th Emrakul should be something else, preferably something aggro busting. I'm considering either Blazing Archon or Terastodon or Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Here's a target breakdown:

Emrakul- Superman, good vs everything
Progenitus- Target when Jace TMS is already in play (or you suspect opponent plays Jace), and pitches to Force.
Terastodon- Against ensnaring bridge and similar crap, OR as a foil to combo/control by nuking all their lands (won a game VS storm by EOT LDV into Terastodon and nuking 3 lands, I took my time to look up another show and tell + emmy). Also can blow up your own lands to make an army to block.
Blazing Archon- Stick it, GG vs aggro but Vulnerable to all kinds of removal.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind- Is blue, pitches to Force, good against Aggro (slightly worse than Blazing Archon). Dies to most common removal like STP, Jace bounce.

ATM, I think the 4th Emmy should be replaced by Terastodon. Terastodon is the most versatile of the lot.

(nameless one)

02-25-2011, 03:05 PM

Hey guys, I am going to an upcoming small bi-weekly tournament and I want to run something that people in my meta don't know that I have. They all know that I run the following: Mono Blue Merfolk, Mono Red Goblins, Elvish Advantage, Dredge, Jaceless CounterTop Thopters, and Quinn. I am pretty sure that most of the players in my meta would have mainboard/sideboard answers to those decks already. Also I just like the element of surprise.

I have most of the cards from this list and try to learn to play the deck before that tournament.

Here is the list I played:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
2 Ponder
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
1 Aquamoeba
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Necrotic Ooze

I've been in screw loads of times during this tournament. I also kept some very risky hands and got punished for this reason.
Spell Pierce was good but it isn't probably needed. Wipe Away was never useful.
I will add 2 Ponders and 1 Land in those 3 slots for more consistecy. I was also thinking of adding Chrome Mox in those slots, but I'm not convinced because of the card disadvantage.

Oh yes, the SB:

3 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
2 Duress
4 Pithing Needle.

I currently don't own any Dual Lands (I never had any problems as long as I only run two colors and lots of fetches), City of Traitors, Thoughtsieze, Personal Tutor, the Reanimator Package (although I have the Ooze combo package) and the Doomsday Package (although I have Emrakul). If I buy the Reanimator Package and the Doomsday sideboard, It will only cost me $20.

Now, I want to know if I could use substitutes for City of Traitors, Thoughtsieze and Personal Tutor. For City of Traitors, I think Crystal Veins should be a solid substitute. With Thoughtsieze, I was thinking of using Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek split (4-2 Split in favor of Duress). Now, I am looking for a substitute for Personal Tutor. Would Sensei's Divining Top work? Possibly a full set of Ponder with it?

Also, I've never really played Aeon Bridge, so can anyone care to explain how the DoomsDay Pile would work? Also, what should I sideboard out in favor of the DD combo? Furthermore, which matchups should I do the DD Pile switch?

Also, what are the Needles for? Expected gravehate?

Thanks in advance!

pippo84

02-25-2011, 09:12 PM

@nameless:

First thing the manabase. Just add more fetches and basic lands. Don't bother with other lands.

Play a full set of ponders (I added 2 Ponders and 1 Land to my previous list).

As a replacement of Thoughtseize play Duress. It can grab Force of Will. If you want to add some play Inquisition or even Spell Pierce could be good.

Needles are for GY hate and against Wasteland when going through DD.

I mainly use DD against control decks and CB decks.

For sideboarding tips, sorry but I can't help. I try different SBing always and never follow the same route. Just follow the impressions of the moment/previous match.

For the DD piles I think you should find plenty of info somewhere on this website, but don't know here to address you. Don't have time to write about it now.. Maybe tomorrow..

ivanpei

02-26-2011, 05:09 AM

I played 10 games against UW landstill today. 6 preboard 4 post. Split 3/3 preboard. I'm pretty impressed I can split against something with counterspells, force and spell snare. Postboard I won one lost 3. I lost 2 games to pure bad luck, I could force through show and tell but in 1 game he had humility, the other he had sower... How unlucky! I'm surprised with how good this deck is against blue though. It feels like a coin toss pre and post board. I've some new tech for this deck against blue: sensei's divining top. One of my buddies, Oleg suggested tops and I put 2 in the board. It was so damn good against blue that I wanted 4. I'll put 2 main instead of the 2nd exhume and the 4th seize with 2 more in the board.

Edit, I hated the 2nd swamp. Drawing swamp + cantrip= mull. I'll cut it for another blue fetch v

Karhumies

02-28-2011, 06:24 PM

I currently don't own any Dual Lands (I never had any problems as long as I only run two colors and lots of fetches), City of Traitors, Thoughtsieze, Personal Tutor, the Reanimator Package (although I have the Ooze combo package) and the Doomsday Package (although I have Emrakul). If I buy the Reanimator Package and the Doomsday sideboard, It will only cost me $20.

Now, I want to know if I could use substitutes for City of Traitors, Thoughtsieze and Personal Tutor. For City of Traitors, I think Crystal Veins should be a solid substitute. With Thoughtsieze, I was thinking of using Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek split (4-2 Split in favor of Duress). Now, I am looking for a substitute for Personal Tutor. Would Sensei's Divining Top work? Possibly a full set of Ponder with it?

I have previously designed a budget version of the deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19571-%5BLegacy%5D-Downscaled-UB-Ooze-combo-MD-90-euros-SB-20-euros). It has been designed without duals or fetchlands, but having lots of fetches with some basics should work nicely, as long as you include some alternative rainbow-like lands (probably 1-of Watery Grave for fetching purposes, or some combination of Underground River/Gemstone Mine/Darkslick Shores).

Back then, City of Traitors was not popular in the build. I would suggest either Ancient Tomb or Crystal Vein as a substitute, based on your local meta and personal preference. Remember that pain lands hurt slightly less when you don't have the Thoughtseizes.

Thoughtseize can be replaced with Duress. You mainly want to take out opposing counters (FoW = cmc 5), so Inquisition is sub-par. If you decide not to run Force of Will (card disadvantage is cumulative), Unmask is also a replacement option if you have them.

As for Personal Tutor, it is harder to replace but then again not THAT essential in the deck (filler slot). I would start by maxing out LDV and Ponder, in that order. Then, unless you want to run MD Burning Wish, I would probably make a choice between SDT and Preordain. Top is slower, but more likely to get there in a slower meta. Preordain ups the blue count for FoW.

Also, what are the Needles for? Expected gravehate?

To prevent them from
Wasteland -> Shelldock Isle

Also works against non-Leyline grave hate (namely Tormod's Crypt, Relic of P. and Faerie Macabre).

jamis

02-28-2011, 07:20 PM

I use Watery Grave online, and have had very few games where it's made a difference. I personally wouldn't play the deck without Personal Tutor, but others do, and put up solid results, so more cantrips can probably work fine. For protection, I would recommend Duress, Spell Pierce, and Dispel if you can't afford Thoughtseize and Force of Will, don't run IoK.

Mark Sun

03-01-2011, 12:33 AM

The FoW-less list was fine, I played it in the Legacy Challenge at Starcity DC.

The only match I felt like I had a clear disadvantage was dedicated Show and Tell (he opened with two Thoughtseize/Duress effects both games, and I didn't have FoW). Otherwise, I beat Junk and Goblins. The last round I had to mulligan a little too much in game 3 and I kept a hand with three cantrips and two fetches, thought it would get me there but I wound up Brainstorming into more Lands/garbage and losing.

I hated the Chrome Moxen, seemed excessive and against what seemed like the principle of the deck, to not have effects that cause further card disadvantage. I would play more Duress possibly, or the fourth Daze in those slots to free up more shenanigans for the SB. Blazing Archon was a little irrelevant as a 1-of that couldn't be tutored for consistently without LDV, which was only a 3-of.

(nameless one)

03-01-2011, 07:06 AM

I actually have a set of FoWs so that department shouldn't be a problem.

Hey Morbid, what does your Legacy Challenge list look like?

Thanks for the responses guys.

tsabo_tavoc

03-01-2011, 03:30 PM

Is 4*Lotus Petal the norm? I did some goldfish tests and found it awful every other time. Hands with 0-1 land and Petals are usually a mull, whereas a Chrome Mox in the place of Petal enables plays like Mox->Ponder, Land Mox->LDV->win next turn. Any reason to play 4 of Petal and 0 Mox?

Karhumies

03-01-2011, 04:25 PM

Any reason to play 4 of Petal and 0 Mox?

Moxes are replaced by adding lands, not by Petals. I am currently running much more lands than the others seem to. I guess my meta just has more Wasteland and Stifle.

Otherwise, Petals over Moxes for accel. because card disadvantage is cumulative, and we already have P.Tutor and FoW. If you cut back on those, then yes, Moxes could work better. Petals are better when one card for that 1 extra mana is enough; Mox 2 cards for 1 mana is horrible. If you need mana over time, up your land count.

tsabo_tavoc

03-01-2011, 07:01 PM

Moxes are replaced by adding lands, not by Petals. I am currently running much more lands than the others seem to. I guess my meta just has more Wasteland and Stifle.

Otherwise, Petals over Moxes for accel. because card disadvantage is cumulative, and we already have P.Tutor and FoW. If you cut back on those, then yes, Moxes could work better. Petals are better when one card for that 1 extra mana is enough; Mox 2 cards for 1 mana is horrible. If you need mana over time, up your land count.

Petal and Ritual also result card disadvantage though. More often than not, one needs Mox twice to cast tutor and Buried Alive. By tapping Chrome Mox the second time, the imprinted card becomes a Petal, which is more valuable than the imprinted card in the land-light hands. Petal is better in other circumstances but does not seem as an auto 4-of to me.

pippo84

03-02-2011, 05:57 PM

Petal and Ritual also result card disadvantage though. More often than not, one needs Mox twice to cast tutor and Buried Alive. By tapping Chrome Mox the second time, the imprinted card becomes a Petal, which is more valuable than the imprinted card in the land-light hands. Petal is better in other circumstances but does not seem as an auto 4-of to me.

Did you actually test the deck or just goldfished as written in your previous post?

Petals are a 1 mana acceleration and it's good. Chrome Moxen are fine too, but the card disadvantage can be heavy to support. You have Petal and Dark Ritual as a 1 mana acceleration, if you need more mana probably you need more lands.

@Karhumies: How many lands are you currently testing/playing?

FYI I added the 16th land recently..

tsabo_tavoc

03-02-2011, 07:28 PM

Did you actually test the deck or just goldfished as written in your previous post?

Petals are a 1 mana acceleration and it's good. Chrome Moxen are fine too, but the card disadvantage can be heavy to support. You have Petal and Dark Ritual as a 1 mana acceleration, if you need more mana probably you need more lands.

@Karhumies: How many lands are you currently testing/playing?

FYI I added the 16th land recently..

I was talking about Mox replacing Petal, not in addition. I tested some games against Dragon Stompy and Chrome Mox performed better (I played ivanpei's manabase -4 Petal +3 Mox +1 City of Traitor). In these games, although Mox is sometimes strictly worse than Petal while I have the extra Reanimate/Tutor to imprint anyway, it is in the games with few lands that Mox prove its merit. You may argue that extra lands may well serve the Mox slots but I already play 17 lands with 7 cantrips. I feel that against aggro with light disruption, Mox is better. Mox is also better against Wasteland.

However, I appreciate that against decks with hand disruption or permission, Petal seems to be superior although I have not tested yet. Thank you for the feedbacks, Karhumies and pippo:)

ivanpei

03-03-2011, 01:41 AM

Mark Sun

03-03-2011, 04:38 AM

I actually have a set of FoWs so that department shouldn't be a problem.

Hey Morbid, what does your Legacy Challenge list look like?

It wasn't an issue of card availability (I had my own FoWs for Sunday), just that they go against the idea of the deck. I played pretty much the straight 75 from the tournament in Japan, except for 4 Preordains instead of 4 Ponder and a fourth Underground Sea (why wouldn't you run this?). To me card selectivity is fairly important and I thought the Preordains were just better at moving the "garbage" out of the way.

But honestly the deck was mainly there so I could have something fun to play on Saturday and leave the heavy thinking for Sunday, I'm mainly just speaking from my observations and experiences, as I wanted something non-interactive and this seemed pretty good in fitting the bill.

tsabo_tavoc

03-03-2011, 06:01 AM

I actually started with 3 Chrome, 3 Ritual, 3 Petals. Then shifted to 4 Ritual 4 petals. Chrome is much better vs aggro and various non-blue decks. Also chrome lowers mull rates because Chrome+ Cantrip is keepable while Petal + cantrip is not. The deck already blasts past aggro and non-blue so its overkill to play chrome. Chrome is terrible against control, so it was cut. I even went a step further and cut my 6th reanimation spell and a Thoughtseize for 2 tops and the tops have been excellent so far. Top gives you the edge against blue and it gives better consistency against aggro. Postboard, I have 4 Tops and it kicks ass against control. You guys should try it!

Thanks for the comprehensive argument and I am very pleased that you can echo Mox>Petal against aggro. Speaking of blue however, do you feel that Land>Petal especially since you ran Tops. Does it mean that Petal is the best all round solution? I will need to test against blue and discard in real life to tune the acceleration suite.

St3B

03-03-2011, 08:08 AM

I would like to sleeve this up and give it a spin. Any suggestions to which list I should try?

Karhumies

03-03-2011, 07:06 PM

@Karhumies: How many lands are you currently testing/playing?

FYI I added the 16th land recently..

I played with 18 lands in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. That was with the red SB splash for B.Wish, though.
4 UB fetch
2 RB fetch
3 RU fetch
2 City of Traitors (I suppose these are "Moxes" in this build rather than normal land slots)
2 UB dual
1 RB dual
1 RU dual
1 Swamp
2 Island

A higher land count allows me to mulligan into more lands, therefore making opposing mana denial less effective when I go down in opening hand card count. However, I had to cut back on blue cards (cantrips) to achieve this, so the trade-off was getting very low (perhaps too low) on FoW fodder.

35 players, which was the new local record (they had a full playset of Tarmogoyf for the winner).
Result: 2-3 drop.

R1: Win vs. Affinity 2-1 (G1 he went first and had T3 kill before my T3 kill I had kept in my opening hand)

R2: Win vs. Imperial painter 2-0 (G2 he was surprised to see my Emrakuls-> I beat his face with Aquamoeba FTW)
NOTE: Opponent went into top 8

R3: Loss vs. Bant midrange 0-2 (FoW + Daze + Spell Pierce combined with Tarmogoyf, KotR and 1-of MD Bojuka Bog. Post-SB, more tax counters and Relic.)
NOTE: Opponent went into top 8

R4: Loss vs. Dredge 0-2 (G1 was very close even though his Cabal Therapy ruined me; G2 he had SB Leyline of the Void & I could not tutor bounce fast enough)
NOTE: Opponent almost got into top 8, but dropped to #11 due to bad tiebreaker #1

R5: Loss vs. Budget NO Bant 0-2 (FoW + Daze + Spell Pierce combined with Rhox War Monk. Post-SB Relic AND Tormod.)

Personal notes:
1) Burning Wish is too slow vs. hand disruption (Cabal Therapy) and permission-based decks, including Bant's tempo-based board control strategy
2) Green SB splash would have been better in this meta. Fighting the gy hate would have been a futile attempt because the hate was really diverse, and generally all over the place.
3) I should have included the 1-of Blazing Archon in the SB (I didn't). It would have won me the match vs Dredge.
4) The Top 8 would have been extremely favorable for Ooze combo:
2x Zoo (very favorable)
Affinity (very favorable)
Enchantress (very favorable: no Humility in the 75)
Dragon Stompy (very favorable MU with such a high land count in my list. also, red splash ftw.)
Imperial Painter (my previous opponent; even G1, very favorable after SB)
Eva Green (even to slightly favorable)
Bant midrange (my previous opponent; unfavorable MU and gets even worse post-board)

Karhumies

03-03-2011, 07:35 PM

I would like to sleeve this up and give it a spin. Any suggestions to which list I should try?

Here's my suggestion:

Ooze UB core shell
// Main Deck (60)
// Mana (25)
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
// One of the fetches could be a 1-of Tropical Island if going for a light green splash
2 City of Traitors
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

// Victory (14)
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

// Protection (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

// Filler and flex slots (13)
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Personal Tutor
1 Ponder
// 1-of Ponder replaceable with MD bounce if that's your thing. My currently preferred MD bounce is Echoing Truth.
// If you would like to have more P.Tutors or Ponders, cut back on lands (this list runs 17, which is stable for a long tournament; not super-fast for a short tournament)

// Sideboard (15)
4 Show and Tell
// 4 BIG creature. I suggest 1xTerastodon, 3-2xEmrakul, 0-1xProgenitus, 0-1xBlazing Archon
// 6 Flex slot, sided in as default (when going full transitional SB).
// 1 Wild flex slot, not sided in as default even when going full transitional.

Flex slot suggestions:
2 Pithing Needle (vs. Karakas, Jace 2.0, Tormod, Relic, KotR, Wasteland)
2 "Take out any target non-land card ftw" (My currently preferred cards are Wipe Away and Maelstrom Pulse)
2 1-of Doomsday + 1-of Shelldock Isle or "counter/disrupt opposing counters" (My currently preferred cards are Duress, Spell Pierce/Force Spike and Xantid Swarm, depending on the meta)

Wild flex slot suggestions:
1
- defensive card: Reverent Silence (vs. Humility), Dryad Arbor (vs. Edict effects), Xantid Swarm (vs. blue), Jace 2.0 (kills opposing Jace to prevent bouncing Emrakul + Brainstorm/Fateseal), Zombify (goes around Counterbalance), Eye of Nowhere (P.Tutorable bounce), Duress/Unmask
- hoser card: Null Rod (hoses any artifact-heavy meta), random hoser card (Leyline of the Void, Ravenous Trap, Mindbreak Trap, Chalice of the Void @ 1)
- any untap effect if running Shelldock Isle
- 5th BIG creature slot
- random tutor slot (Worldly tutor, extra P.Tutor or cantrip)
- Gain control-effect (e.g. Steal enchantment)
- Polymorph-effect (lol)
- any hot meta-tech card of choice

EDIT:
I will have to add, that I have not tested Sensei's Divining Top. In principle, it may be really good versus blue decks because they will think us to be Counterbalance, and play their hand slowly to save mana for a non-existent counterwar over Counterbalance resolution. This will give us enough life to stockpile multiples of the same win condition with our SDT + cantrips. In my suggested MD list, probably -1 land -1 P.Tutor +2 SDT, and SB -2 Something +2 SDT

ivanpei

03-03-2011, 08:16 PM

I would like to sleeve this up and give it a spin. Any suggestions to which list I should try?

My list is not the best list, but I would dare say it is the "safest". I'm playing this now:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Top

4 Force
3 Thoughtseize

4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
1 Exhume

1 Trike
1 Ooze
1 Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

2 Personal Tutor
4 Lim Dul's Vault

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Sea
4 Delta
2 Marsh
3 Flooded
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
1 Terastodon (Proggy is inferior to emmy and you can solve Jace with Terastodon too)
2 Top
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce

Hope this helps! I'm currently the only one playing top, but trust me, it's very strong.

St3B

03-04-2011, 06:21 AM

Thanks Karhumies and Ivanpei for the lists.
@Karhumies Is there any special reason behind Shallow Grave? Emrakul pos SB?

I think I will test Ivanpei's list first since I only have 2 Personal Tutor or make a slight hybrid from both lists.

pippo84

03-05-2011, 09:10 PM

Karhumies, you are now running 4 Personal Tutor and 1 Ponder?

I am playing almost the opposite (4 Ponder, 2 Personal Tutor).

Can you explain me your reasons please? I can see why you want to run Personal Tutor maxed, but I also found ponder very good.

Still haven't tested top, I can see it's good, but I would probably add Preordain if Ponders are already maxed instead.. Will give it a try next week..

Mark Sun

03-05-2011, 10:59 PM

This list was posted a couple of pages back. I tried it, and added some opinions on it.

ivanpei

03-08-2011, 06:30 PM

@ preordain vs top. Obviously if you are playing vs aggro, preordain is faster and a better choice. However if you are battling blue, top is much better, it turns every fetchland into a brainstorm. Unlike adnaseum tendrils or doomsday, we have less worries about life. We can be under 10 life and just kill on the spot (assuming you can still reanimate). So sitting around topping against blue is actually a very good play. I'd prefer bobs in the board when they board removal out but bob-> eldrazi is :(

Top is the next best thing. I've played it in fetchland tendrils and I loved it. I see no reason why it won't work here.

St3B

03-09-2011, 08:14 AM

I've played several games now and like how the deck plays out. The only issue I have with it is, that the deck folds to collateral hate cards. Though not very likely, you have no answers to resolved graveyard hate, Pithing Needle or Revoker in game 1. After SB you have the Show and Tell plan, while beeing good people are more and more prepared for it.

With my limited experience with this deck my question is why should I play this instead of ANT?

ivanpei

03-09-2011, 08:48 AM

Force Of Will

G1, storm combo does not play bounce (or maybe as a 1-off which we can also play) and loses to Chalice, revoker on LED and hate bears. They have 6-7 discard spells to fight it. We have Force of will, which is such a great catch all. To supplement force, we can also play 3-5 discard (up to your preference). Also, this deck is good against folk because you can slow roll folk. You can afford to play around daze and wastelands because you can still go off at a low life. ANT on the other hand cannot. They need 12+ life to safely go off with ANT. They cannot iggy loop against anything with blue because they will return Force/counters back to the opponents hand.

The other argument is rituals. This deck plays 4 petal, 4 dark ritual and thats it. Storm combo has to play:
4 Petals
4 LED
3 Chrome (Which is also card disadvantage)
4 Dark Ritual
2-4 Cabal Ritual

That's a high ritual count that could be better used for other things. We can afford to play 8 Cantrips, 2 Tops, 5-6 Tutors and 7-8 Disruption Spells MD. Which other combo deck can do this?

Post board show and tell is not perfect, but it works. Show and Tell is extremely hard to hate. If you were ANT playing against countertop, you have to bring in Grips/Reverant silence while we can just ignore countertop and win through it. You can board in 2 Tops, 2 Spell Pierce and 2 Discard spells to fight off control. In fact, you may have more disruption than they do. Storm combo cannot do this because they are forced to dedicate a high amount of cards to rituals. Against aggro, storm combo may randomly lose to hate bears or mindbreak trap which all aggro decks are packing. ANT therefore has to bring is crap like chain/echoing truth while we can just ignore them. Dedicated Show and Tell hate is rare and consists mainly of discard, edicts (rare) and counterspells. People are also likely to bring in grave hate which is useless.

Karakas/Jace can be dealt with by LDVing for Terastodon instead of Emmy. The deck doesn't fold to them. All in all, I find this deck the "hidden gem" of legacy that nobody is playing. This makes me quite sad. :(

dahcmai

03-09-2011, 02:13 PM

Also if you play the version I do, you can go off at instant speed, which is really nice against some decks.

JCLe

03-10-2011, 01:29 AM

I have tried both the Force of Will version and the Japanese version (from that eternal party thing) and I must say I prefer the FoW-less version by a lot.

For reference I was playing something very similar to Ivanpei's list posted a few posts ago, with -2 sea / + 2 city of traitors, -1 ldv -2 top -4 force, +3 daze +3 duress +1 spell pierce (which gives me 10 protection total with the 3 seize's) I did change the Aquamoeba for a Putrid Imp when I wasn't playing force and the only time I would rather have had a Aquamoeba was versus a double Goblin lackey hand, and that didn't matter in the end.

I actually kept his sideboard identical (except for the parts that I already have maindeck... added some CoV's and E-Truths) and I must say the transformational sideboard works very well versus various tempo/ blue decks.

I started by testing against NO Bant. I played about the same amount of matches (3 with fow and 4 w/o) and i've had a lot less game losses with the dazes, only giving 1 match away out of 4 on a relatively loose keep g3...

Against counterbalance, the dazes are just so much better it's not even close, they cant play counterbalance turn 2 if you haven't already duress'd it, and if they use a FoW to resolve it you're probably getting there sooner or later with the help of LDV and exhume.

I've also tested against goblins, although FoW or not it didn't really matter, g1 was always mine and g2 I'd just play around gy hate with the bounce or by hardcasting the Ooze -> BA. Didn't really drop a game except when we just got bored and I ''had'' to keep whatever 7 I had without looking.

Sadly enough I didn't get any testing done versus combo because nobody plays storm except for me here...

It seems like daze + some duress's or pierces is just plain better, I have been mulling to 5 often and going off protected by 1 spell many times where force wouldn't have done it.

What are the arguments pro FoW when you can just slowroll 1 more turn with a duress or use the extra mana from all those petals and rituals to push it through with 1 more card anyway ?

The card disadvantage + removing cantrips from your hand just didn't feel superior to me when spell pierce/daze or a duress just wins even more. This deck can slow-roll so much that I don't see why you wouldn't rather just ponder into another protection spell instead of Forcing and hoping the other guy has nothing else...

Sure, daze gets worse as you slow roll more, but most of the time that slowrolling doesn't mean getting to turn 4, maybe just turn 3, where daze can still be very potent (cliques, pierces with a goyf on board, etc). If they don't put pressure on the board you just draw those discard spells anyway...

Please enlighten me if you can, thank you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. Also, it just seems that if you run 2x 2cc Reanimates, the best thing to do would be 1 shallow + 1 exhume (exhume is personal tutor'able when you really need it (4 life or less), and the shallow is just plain better)

Just an additional thought I had during the testing versus goblins + GY hate, when he had a crypt out I could have combo'd pretty easily with an instant reanimate + another one, but I still wanted to be able to get exhume when low on life. It would also give you an out versus leyline of sanctity or any other random shenanigans

Did I miss something here?

ivanpei

03-10-2011, 09:24 AM

Most of your observations are right, Force has been valuable for me though. I understand pitching cantrips is a bitch at times but the time it buys you in certain situations are priceless. If you are testing solely against blue where the card disadvantage hurts, more duress/pierce is better. Against decks that run out T1 Necatl/Lackey/Vial/Chalice @ 1 on the play, you simply have no answer if you don't play force. You can race Necatl/Lackey/Vial more often than not, but being safe doesn't hurt. On the play, T1 Moon/Chalice/Revoker on the other hand... you have no outs if you don't play Force. If you expect heavy blue, play the Duress +Pierce versions. I'd play the FOW versions in an open meta (especially one with MUD and Dragon Stompy).

PS, what's your objective evaluation on this decks powerlevel? I may be biased but I think this deck is the fucking nuts.

(nameless one)

03-10-2011, 09:50 AM

I need this sounds janky but has anyone considered Makeshift Mannequin? Why? Well,

+It's an instant
+Theoretically, it plays around CounterTop (a dreaded matchup against all combo decks)
+Could work with Buried Alive>Emrakul>MM in response to Emrakul's trigger (post board)

-It costs 4 mana (do we really slow roll that long with this deck?)

I have limited testing with the deck so I can't really say much, hence why I'm asking for opinions.

Rallye

03-10-2011, 12:19 PM

Sunday i played this deck at a tournament. Made it top 4, then i blew it, making terrible mistakes.

This deck rocks! But lots of people do not know this deck, maybe thats our advantage?
Also i didn´t like fow at all. Pitching cantrips, and lose for instance a counter war is really bad. Then where totally out of gas.
Fow leaves for daze in my list. Don´t know if daze is the right choice, but will find it out in the next tournament.

My decklist was:

1x ooze
1x triskelion
1x devourer
4x ponder
4x bs
2x persnonal tutor
3x lim dul
4x fow
4x BA
4x reanimate
2x shallow grave
4x thougthseize
2x duress
4x d ritual
4x lotus petal
2x ancient tomb(traitors are incomming)
1x swamp
2x island
3x u sea
9x fetch

Side

4x needle
3x emrakul
1x progenitus
4x show and tell
3x meta slot

I´am thinking on a list with some more black discard sources to protect, and get some more info of your opponent´s hand. Also playing putrid imp with intuition. Intuition gives me more buried alive effect´s, on instant speed!, when the imp is out on the battlefield. Don´t know the precise numbers of cards yet. When i have a list that works fine i will post it.

St3B

03-10-2011, 04:00 PM

ivanpei

03-10-2011, 06:16 PM

I had the same feedback from buddies saying that it doesn't feel as powerful. I somewhat understand this. The allure or playing a billion spells and tendrilsing and opponent is very attractive. Objectively though, I have the same win rate preboard against aggro with wastelands. The quickest and most disruptive, goblins, I crush 80% of games preboard through wastes and ports. ANT I believe also has similar win percentages. Against blue decks like folk/bant/jacestill, I can always break even preboard, feels slightly positive actually. I can't say the same for ANT as I feel slightly on the negative side preboard.

Postboard I still kick aggro in the balls as I am immune to most common hate. Against blue, I still maintain a very good win percentage that is close to break even. This is due to the fact I can bring in a more compact (though slower) and less mana intensive combo. This allows me to board in hate and attrition cards (like top) which allow me to win the counter slugfest. I almost always win if I stick a top against blue barring some random fails like the opponent dropping sower/ humility to show and tell.

I can't say the same for ANT which will find it hard to beat a smart opponent (ie one who doesn't board out all removal and expects swarms/bobs). As I argued previously, ANT's postboard win percentage drops drastically because of the lower ritual count and being forced to board in things they may or may not need. Boarding in bounce vs trap? Fail. Board in duress against trap but die to teeq? Also fail. Board in both but draw the wrong thing, while not having enough rituals because you diluted your deck with chaff? Mega fail.

JCLe

03-11-2011, 12:25 AM

Fow Stuff

PS, what's your objective evaluation on this decks powerlevel? I may be biased but I think this deck is the fucking nuts.

Regarding FoW, I find it pretty greedy to think that it will actually stop chalice or w/e threats @ turn 1 everytime they come up, this is why I dislike Force (+ all the other reasons) in this deck. I actually started running 1 maindeck echoing truth and I like it a lot, solving chalice and whatever is on board most of the time for your combo turn.

Granted, this was MWS testing and to me that isn't worth crap except for practicing knowing your own 75 better.

I thought maybe adding more anti-hate (ex. null rod, 3-4 bounce) to the show and tell package which would give me a lot more resiliency when I go that route while giving me the option to stay in the GY combo with very little to worry about.

I will be testing a different sideboard this week-end as I will be running this over storm at my next tournament.

That says a lot about the deck's powerlevel and is a very objective opinion (storm/combo archetype being my favorite).

ANT > Ooze

I think you are right there, the ability to fight through the hate and blue in general this deck has is just what I like. Aggro generally isn't even a game, unless you mull into crap or get badlucky with cantrips.

Have you changed anything from your list sb yet? I find discussion on this deck very interesting.

ivanpei

03-11-2011, 01:22 AM

Not really, SB hasn't changed much. Null rod seems good if you find it useful in your meta or if you want to go "fight the hate route". Some people also like Proggy instead of the 4th Emmy in the board. Prog pitches to force and is unbouncable. Others have the Dday - Shelldock plan, Helm-Line plan and various other alternative combos. IMO, if you really want to beat blue, the UBr versions with burning wish absolutely smash countertop. Of course having a crappier manabase makes you more exposed to wastelands. I'll test the force-less versions a bit more, I may like the results in a blue meta. Cheers.

Windux

03-11-2011, 11:25 AM

That's my 15-0-1 list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [SOM] Swamp (1)
1 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [SOM] Island (1)
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Badlands
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
2 City of Traitors

// Creatures
1 [AL] Phyrexian Devourer
1 [TO] Aquamoeba
1 [M11] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Necrotic Ooze
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [MI] Shallow Grave
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CST] Dark Ritual
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [TE] Reanimate
3 [OD] Buried Alive
1 [WL] Doomsday
1 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [TE] Reanimate
SB: 1 [OD] Buried Alive
SB: 3 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 3 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Terrastodon
SB: 1 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

3 Mainboard and Postboardcombos at the cost. I don't write more now, watching News instead....so sad

Philipp2293

03-11-2011, 11:45 AM

So many options during playing and also while SBing. Do you have any general guidelines into what combo you board G2/3?

pippo84

03-11-2011, 12:20 PM

Nice list Windux!

Actually it's the first list with Burning Wish that I like! :smile:

Could you write a report of your 15-0-1?

I would also be interested to know how the choices came up..

Cheers!

St3B

03-14-2011, 02:55 PM

Interesting list Windux, I'll test it. THX

JCLe

03-16-2011, 06:16 PM

Has anybody tried a non S&T sideboard ?

Something along the lines of :

4-5 bounces : to swap your various discard / counters that wont hit the early GY hate permanents

x tops ; to swap in versus blue decks

x whatever slots ?

This is just on the top of my head but it feels relevant because during testing I was actually able to beat non blue decks without any sort of bounce with their GY hate boarded in, so I guess it can be even more resilient so this just works every time ?

Also Emrakul just doesn't work all the time against KoTR tempo with decent disruption on their side of the board.

hyc8028

03-18-2011, 06:11 AM

pippo84

03-18-2011, 07:04 AM

I am wondering that myself. Can it be done without SnT?

I am playing without Show and Tell in my sideboard. My main plan is to fight against GY hate and sometimes board in "plan B" against CB decks or against decks with too much hate. For example sometimes I board in both plans and sometimes I just play "plan A" and sometimes I just play "plan B" sideboarding the reanimator stuff out. This is my current SB for your info:

4 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Duress
3 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Shelldock Isle

Hope this helps. Anyways sometimes I wish I had SnT in my SB, but when I tested it it wasn't that great for me.. :)

jamis

03-18-2011, 11:17 AM

Yeah, I've been playing a nearly identical board as the one pippo posted above for a month or two now. I think you definitely want some sort of "plan b" in the sb since CB is such a large part of the meta and since the deck's preboard strategy is pretty much shut down by an active conterbalance+top -- exceptions being LDVing for Ooze and casting it after BA, and sometimes getting there with Exhume/Shallow Grave.

It doesn't matter greatly what alternate strategy you choose whether its S&T, Doomsday, a high cost reanimation spell or whatever else, but I feel you need something.

(nameless one)

03-18-2011, 11:22 AM

Hey pippo and jamis,

Postboard, if I resolve a Doomsday, how would my pile look like and what do I need in hand/field?

Yes, I am not a combo player.

Thanks in advance.

jamis

03-18-2011, 11:54 AM

It's variable depending on how much mana you have available and what cards are in your hand.

If you have 6 mana open (BBBUU1) and Doomsday Brainstorm and a blank card in hand,

Shelldock Isle
Cloud of Fae
Pithing Needle/Wipe Away/etc.
Emrakul
Doomsday/whatever else

If you get it earlier, you can cast DD one turn, then if you have UU1 open the next turn with 1 card in hand,

Brainstorm
Shelldock Isle
Cloud of Fae
Emrakul
Doomsday/whatever

Alternatively, if you only have U open after casting Doomsday or have no cards in hand afterwards,

Shelldock Isle
doomsday
Whatever
Emrakul
whatever

I know Emidln wrote a bit more in depth about Shelldock Doomsday piles, if I find it I'll repost it here.

pippo84

03-18-2011, 09:21 PM

Has anyone tried Windux's list posted above? It seems promising in my opinion, but I didn't have a chance to test it yet..

Anyways from my list I'm unsure with the 4-2 split of Lim Dul's Vault and Personal Tutor. Wouldn't a 3-3 split be better? Sometimes I have PT in hand and prefer a Ponder to find a land or a mana source, and sometimes it's the opposite: I have a Ponder looking for the "missing piece" and prefer a PT..

Anyways from my first list (with Pact of Negation) I have to say that the deck is less explosive, but more solid.. I now play almost all the cards as a 4 of.

P.S. @ Windux: if you have some comments on your list they are really welcome!

death

03-19-2011, 03:29 AM

Decklist is sick indeed, although at first glance it looks like it'll have problems firing up those Burning Wishes against Stifle decks.

I also don't feel comfortable with City of Traitors in there when part of the plan is to cast Lim-Dul's Vault & Doomsday by turn 3.

jamis

03-20-2011, 01:58 AM

I went 4-2 in an event earlier today. Wrote a Tournament Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20318-Necrotic-Ooze-wins-0-Jaces&p=530473) for anyone interested.

ivanpei

03-20-2011, 10:08 PM

Posted my thoughts on the report thread. BTW I think that this deck (or any combo deck in general) MUST play at least 6 cantrips. Cantrips 7-10 is up to you, but 4 Brainstorms, 2 Ponders is compulsory IMO. Cheers.

Also in the report, the DDay pile caught collateral damage from pithing needle which was brought in for Ooze, That's why IMO, show and tell is still the best option, so you don't get caught in the splash damage. Cheers!

hyc8028

03-21-2011, 02:58 AM

I am going to put this deck together since all the stuff I am missing from this deck are the uncommons. Is there are major difference between Shallow Grave and Exhume beside the fact that you can fetch one with personal tutor?

ivanpei

03-21-2011, 03:01 AM

If you plan to play Ooze plan post board, Shallow Grave being instant lets you reanimate your ooze in response to say tormod's crypt or relic. You reanimate, they crypt, you response Shallow Grave. IMO, both are fine, I used to play 1/1 Exhume/Shallow split but since I usually play show and tell postboard, it never really mattered.

hyc8028

03-21-2011, 03:45 AM

Does anyone else think we need a new name for this deck? Calling it non survival ooze does feel a bit awkward when survival isn't legal in legacy anymore. How about Next Level Reanimator (NLR)?

Edit: How about Reactivator? Since game 1 we just use the activated abilities from the creature and reanimate the ooze to win. I am just throwing names out there.

ivanpei

03-21-2011, 03:52 AM

LOL @ Reactivator. I almost choked at that name. How about Buried Ooze? Sounds pretty to the point.

St3B

03-21-2011, 11:53 AM

I think names like Reactivator have more style than just sticking two card names togehter. I hope this week I'll get some playtesting in with the Burning Wish version. Will keep you guys posted.

jamis

03-21-2011, 06:56 PM

You can call the deck whatever name you want. I've just been saying Ooze Reanimator. I kept the name vague when I made the topic to discuss all different applications of Necrotic Ooze to figure out which would be best, but now that the list has been fairly defined, the title is less fitting. I tried changing the topic title, but was only able to change it in the OP, so either someone with Mods needs to change it or I just can't figure out how to do it.

ivanpei

03-21-2011, 07:09 PM

Any way reactivator is a very cool and hilarious name. If we decide to stick with it, I'm all for it. :)

JCLe

03-21-2011, 07:34 PM

lol'd at reactivator too, unfortunately I was unable to attend the tournament I was planning to go to last week.

My list is still very similar, packing 10 disruption/protection to very good results.

I'm still above 50% against blue matchups, which is something I quite like. The bounce sideboard works really well by the way, everything that deals with your stuff is permanent or sub-par card (e.g. faerie macabre/extirpate etc.) and those a removable with thoughtseizes anyway...

hyc8028

03-21-2011, 11:10 PM

Glad you guys like my name suggestion. Reactivator FTW!

Karhumies

03-22-2011, 06:09 AM

Here's the shell of what I am currently testing/playing with:

60 MAIN DECK
-----
17 LAND
8 ACCEL.
8 PROT.
14 WIN
13 FILTER

15 SIDEBOARD
------
[10 FIXED]
[4 TOOLBOX]
[1 FLEX]

Blue count 16-18
Mana 25

// Lands 17
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Ux fetch
3 Bx fetch
2 Dual (1 Underground Sea + 1 Ux dual)
2 City of Traitors / Ancient Tomb

// Accel. 8
4 D.Rit
4 L.Petal

// Prot. 8
8 Thoughtseize / Force of Will / Daze / Duress (BLUE COUNT, currently 4 FoW, 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Daze)

// WIN 14
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave / Entomb (currently 2-0)
1 Putrid Imp / Aquamoeba (blue count, currently Aquamoeba)
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion
1 Necrotic Ooze

// FILTER 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
5 Ponder / P.Tutor / Sensei's Divinining Top (BLUE COUNT, currently 2-2-1)

// Sideboard
[FIXED 10]
SB: 4 SnT
SB: 3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 2 Echoing Truth / Wipe Away (currently 2-0)

[TOOLBOX 4]
Option A:
1 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle [NOTE: Even if SnT gets Extirpated, you can still win through Shelldock Isle]
2 Pithing Needle (commonly used vs. Wasteland for Toolbox strategy)

Option B: [versus decks which splash blue for counters; e.g. Bant decks, Merfolk and Tempo-based strategies]
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tax counter (Spell Pierce) or Xantid Swarm

[FLEX 1]
1 Meta card (often goes in to replace MD Daze on the draw)
or 1 Supplementary card [e.g. Option A: Cloud of Faeries, Option B: Xantid Swarm #3]

My main concerns for the moment:

Decks which splash blue counters (to slow us) combined with either a fast clock or fast life gain (to prevent us from trying to go off a 2nd or 3rd time). In other words: Bant builds (Daze + FoW + Spell Pierce/Spell Snare + Rhox War Monk), UW Tempo (Daze + FoW + Spell Pierce + Jitte).

forsmark

03-22-2011, 06:47 AM

What's the consensus on the Duress vs. Thoughtseize debate?
Obviously Thoughtseize is probably the best, allowing you to take anything and direct it at yourself if needed to get rid of a drawn Ooze. But I wonder, how often is that necessary?
Duress takes care of all enemy threats I can think of (besides Meddling Mage) and doesn't impose a lifeloss (also is much cheaper for budget concerns).

Is Thoughtseize really that much better?

Karhumies

03-22-2011, 07:06 AM

Is Thoughtseize really that much better?

As life loss from Thoughtseize is around 90-95% of the time completely irrelevant, I would say it is strictly better (but not by that much). If you have budget constraints for acquiring T.Seize, Duress is a fine substitute.

Also:
Thoughtseize + City of Traitors = good. (premium)
Duress + Ancient Tomb = good. (budget)
Thoughtseize + Ancient Tomb = bad. (too much life loss)

The thing you should keep in mind is that sometimes you may e.g. Thoughtseize -> Knight of the Reliquary -> Reanimate KotR -> win by beating face. Or get rid of opposing Rhox War Monk (opposing life gain can be horrible for us).

Nelis

03-22-2011, 07:12 AM

And what about Inquisition of Krozilek?

forsmark

03-22-2011, 07:20 AM

And what about Inquisition of Krozilek?

IoK is unplayable imo. Can't get rid of FoW and you can't discard your own Ooze to it.

As life loss from Thoughtseize is around 90-95% of the time completely irrelevant, I would say it is strictly better (but not by that much). If you have budget constraints for acquiring T.Seize, Duress is a fine substitute.

Also:
Thoughtseize + City of Traitors = good. (premium)
Duress + Ancient Tomb = good. (budget)
Thoughtseize + Ancient Tomb = bad. (too much life loss)

The thing you should keep in mind is that sometimes you may e.g. Thoughtseize -> Knight of the Reliquary -> Reanimate KotR -> win by beating face. Or get rid of opposing Rhox War Monk (opposing life gain can be horrible for us).

Thanks for that info. Had not considered the synergy of Reanimate + Thoughtseize. I am just wondering if it's really that good, as it just turns their removal live. Not sure.

Also, is it consensus to play two sol lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors)? Even if you include Doomsday in the SB?

pippo84

03-22-2011, 10:47 AM

Here is the list I'm currently running. If you have some suggestions please tell me!

Lands: 16

2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats

Creatures: 4

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion
1 Aquamoeba

Spells: 40

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor

SB: 15

4 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
3 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Cloud of Faeries

The list is built for consistency, with many 4 ofs and cantrips/tutors. I'm not sure, but probably I would like to have a 3rd PT in the deck, but what to cut?

ivanpei

03-22-2011, 11:01 AM

@ Pippo, your Decklist looks fine, I wouldn't cut anything for a 3rd Personal. If you do, it should be 1 shallow grave. I find that smart players always counter the buried alive. I tend to get stuck with multiple reanimate spells, with my buried alive countered, awkward!

@ Karhumies, nice looking list. Glad you like top! It has been rocking for me.

hyc8028

03-22-2011, 01:09 PM

I have seen someone splash red for burning wish, then I am thinking if it is possible for us to splash white for chant/silence effect in the SB. We can easily fit in 1 to 2 tundra in the main and petal also can produce white mana. That would work for those who have duals but doesn't have thoughtseize.

Karhumies

03-22-2011, 08:46 PM

IoK is unplayable imo. Can't get rid of FoW
This.

IoK ... can't discard your own Ooze
Irrelevant; hardcasting Ooze (after resolving Buried Alive on the previous turn - supposing no opposing KotR) is better than revealing your hand. Worst case scenario: opponent counters Ooze = you can reanimate. Which saved you a Thoughtseize and made the opponent lose a counter FTW.

Thanks for that info. Had not considered the synergy of Reanimate + Thoughtseize. I am just wondering if it's really that good, as it just turns their removal live. Not sure.

Depends heavily on the meta and pairings. Welder-animator, for example, runs big creatures without having removal of their own. Thoughtseize can also occasionally T1 screw up opposing Sneaky Show or Berserk Stompy, if it hits their only creature - as well as get rid of T1 Lackey/Welder when opponent is on the draw. It can also get rid of random opposing MD cards, such as Tidehollow Sculler (BW Tempo) or Phyrexian Revoker (some Affinity variants), but this only makes a difference if you randomly run into some. Most of the time in popular MUs, T.seize vs. Duress should not matter that much because we are primarily a combo deck trying to get rid of opposing counters.

Also, is it consensus to play two sol lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors)? Even if you include Doomsday in the SB?
:2: land + L.Petal = T1 Show and Tell. Also, allows playing around Daze / Spell Pierce more effectively.

I have not tried exclusive Doomsday SB without SnT, so I can not say anything about that. Swamp -> D.Ritual -> Doomsday seems the best for that, but we can run only 4xD.Rit :P.

@ Karhumies, nice looking list. Glad you like top! It has been rocking for me.

Still trying it out. My main problem with SDT is that I currently own just a highlander copy (but 5 P.Tutors), so I can not really try the SDT+Xantid SB in a tournament until I invest some more money in the deck (= 1 Tropical Island + 2-3 SDT).

The list is built for consistency, with many 4 ofs and cantrips/tutors. I'm not sure, but probably I would like to have a 3rd PT in the deck, but what to cut?

I have found out that 10 card disadvantage total in MD is the maximum we can effectively support.
Currently, you have
4 FoW
4 LDV
2 P.Tutor

Further P.Tutors would replace either LDV or FoW. For a Doomsday based SB strategy, you can try a 3-3 split between LDV and P.Tutor, as you don't need LDV to find Emrakul unlike with 4xSnT SB. As long as you are only looking for Sorcery win condition, P.Tutor is cheaper in mana and does not cause life loss - but reveals information to the opponent. Going down to 2 or less LDV is not feasible, because post-SB you want to find P.Needle / bounce sometimes.

I have seen someone splash red for burning wish, then I am thinking if it is possible for us to splash white for chant/silence effect in the SB. We can easily fit in 1 to 2 tundra in the main and petal also can produce white mana. That would work for those who have duals but doesn't have thoughtseize.

IMO, SB Xantid Swarm is better. The correct SB for opponent is to side out his creature removal after G1. Also, we are a bit unlikely to get double white for Chant's kicker cost - whilst as X.Swarm can chump block. The main advantage for X.Swarm, however, is that does not take out mana from the combo turn (we do not need storm count). In practise, this allows T1 X.Swarm (potentially on the play-> only FoW stops it), T2 combo win with some opening hands which would be only T3 with Silence/Chant (and the opponent would have his counters active by then to counter Silence).

I also like the opening play of Misty Rainforest -> Island -> Ponder / Brainstorm / Top
"Oh, you are playing (CounterTop) Bant?" -> makes them play around Daze/Spell Pierce, even though we don't have them, and stick to their Spell Snares and removals even when they are Brainstorming (waiting for Tarmogoyf to hit the board)
or Verdant Catacombs -> Swamp -> Thoughtseize
"Pernicious Deed?" -> makes them slow down developing their board position or "Eva Green?" -> makes them think we are not a combo deck and that we don't have counters, which can be good for us. Also, makes them think we have lots more discard effects to follow up (Hymn to Tourach), which encourages them to not leave mana open for our turn.

over

Flooded Strand -> Island -> Ponder / Brainstorm
"ANT with Chant?" -> makes them play better against us, as the guess is somewhat close to the target (we are a combo deck)
or Marsh Flats -> Swamp -> Thoughtseize
"Deadguy Ale?" or "BW Tempo?" -> often makes opposing combo players perform better against us, because they assume we focus on irrelevant board development rather than disrupting their hand. This is true enough to make a small difference in their favour.

Glad you guys like my name suggestion. Reactivator FTW!

I would like to get to actually use the phrase "Reactivate. Scoop?" in a tournament. :)

jamis

03-22-2011, 09:55 PM

On the topic of Thoughtseize vs. Duress, it should be noted that people will be boarding in Vendellion Clique against you if it's not mainboard. This is a huge plus for thoughtseize in addition to the other creatures you could potentially want to take.

ivanpei

03-22-2011, 10:43 PM

I much prefer 4 Thoughtseize, with duress the 5-6th discard spells. Nabbing the revoker, clique and other powerful things like T1 lackey or T1 Necatl is too important. The pain is irrelevant compared to the life total you save from Grabbing a Lackey/Kitty in the long run.

Karhumies

03-23-2011, 06:19 AM

The pain is irrelevant compared to the life total you save from Grabbing a Lackey/Kitty in the long run.

On the other hand, Goblins and Zoo do not have access to counters; while we have a pretty stable G1 turn 3 combo. Which means that if we are going first G1 with T1 discard effect, even T1 Nacatl or Lackey might not get there in time against us. Which makes the difference between Thoughtseize and Duress smaller in G1 when we have a decent opening hand versus these decks. (Of course, there are build-related differences here; Goblins with T1 Lackey, T2 Rishadan Port (to prevent us go off), T3 Earwig Squad would be gg.) My intention here is to point out that while in some MUs G1 Duress will be a dead card while Thoughtseize works, this G1 quality difference between Duress and Thoughtseize is not always critical to winning (since we are often winning these non-blue MUs G1 anyway).

Against Goblins, with SnT SB, our key Goblins to take out in G2 will be Stingscourger and Warren Weirding (and every goblin card which can tutor them up). Hopefully, the opponent has sided them all out to bring in 4x Leyline of the Void. But if they haven't, Thoughtseize will be a gazillion times more effective than Duress in G2 vs Goblins. Also, we want to prevent them from getting, say, T2 Warren Instigator in G2 (which combined with T3 Rishadan Port should prevent us go off on T3, with T4 lethal from the Goblin side).

I guess what I am trying to say here is that when going full transitional for G2, it really sucks to leave dead cards in MD just because we don't have any extra space to side them out (such as 4x Duress vs. Goblins: on the play, they can already have T0 Leyline of Void, T1 P.Needle or T1 Tormod/Relic, after which Duress has no targets anymore). This is the biggest advantage of Thoughtseize vs. Duress IMO: T.seize is a dead card only versus Lands.DEC.

Karhumies

03-27-2011, 09:34 PM

What would be the best singleton cards to splash into an UB build (either SnT or Doomsday SB) from the other colors?

So far, I've been thinking:

*Sorcery

:r:
*Meltdown - meta vs. Affinity, also catches P.Needle and Tormod/Relic

:g:
*Maelstrom Pulse - all-around
Dryad Arbor - meta vs. Edict effects
*Reverent Silence - meta vs. Leylines, Humility, Enchantress

:w:
Solitary Confinement - all-around protection
Serenity - takes care of Tormod/Relic/Leyline, Affinity/Enchantress
Peacekeeper - protects vs creatures, but vulnerable if played off a dual land
*Vindicate - all-around, but usually worse than M.Pulse

Creature choices for last SB slot
Blazing Archon - protects vs creatures
Platinum Emperion - protects vs life loss (but does not allow FoW or fetching)

...less common :0: choices
Damping Matrix - meta vs artifacts, does not shut down our Petals
Null Rod - when we really want to shut down opposing Petals and LEDs
Defense Grid - meta vs blue

...and less common :u: choices
Reins of Power - probably not at its best in this deck, but might work anyway
Steal Enchantment - does exactly what the name suggests

Am I missing something awesome from this list?

ivanpei

03-27-2011, 09:51 PM

I quite like a 1-off blazing archon actually. The problem with show and tell is the slow speed and occasionally dying to aggro. With Archon, you just bash them to death from the air. It's the only out when you are facing a lethal alpha strike next turn. I'm thinking of going 3 Emmy, 1 Archon, 1 Terastodon split. No one is going to keep in swords even if they know you are going Show and Tell plan. Since they know it still can't hit emmy, the archon should be safe.

pippo84

03-28-2011, 11:36 AM

Just posted a report in the tournament report section.

Comments are welcome!!

Edit: FYI I just checked TC Decks to see how Ooze Combo is doing around the world. These are the Spanish top 8 atm. They are playing with Preordain instead of Ponder and Chrome Mox is in the deck.

Link: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php

ivanpei

03-30-2011, 02:10 AM

I'm messing around with my SB at the moment and I noticed that pure SNT is not the way to go. There are some decks where show and tell is absolute CRAP against. I'll play this:

4 SNT
3 Emmy
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon

1 Top
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize

1 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth

I play only 13 combo cards MD due to tops (4 Buried, 4 Reanimate, 1 Exhume, Ooze, Trike, Devourer, Aqua). So I can afford to have 2 dead cards post board. I decided to throw in some bounce in Repeal and Echoing. Repeal because if I go Show and Tell, I'll bring in the 1 Repeal to replace a Ritual (don't need too much accel in a SNT deck). The 1 repeal can bounce whatever and cantrip or can dig you out of shit if you face a Meddling Mage on SNT.

Bounce is also great instead of 2 Spell Pierces when you are playing against Aggro with the SNT plan. Sometimes you end up slower than aggro and they just roll you. Most importantly though, bounce is there as insurance against some decks that SNT is absolutely crap against. Ie, Goblins, decks with KOTR/Karakas and random hate like Humility/Bridge/Sower.

pippo84

04-01-2011, 01:12 PM

I found that fighting hate is just the best way to go. I just keep a plan B for difficult MU's. Maybe I'll try S&T again, but DD is doing well for me atm.

How is the version with Top going? It's a solid choiche now that you tested it a lot?

What do we need to get this thread in "enstablished"? :wink:

JACO

04-01-2011, 08:27 PM

jamis

04-01-2011, 08:44 PM

I've been following this deck and testing it, and I have to ask you guys do you really like Lotus Petal in here? I hate that card every time I draw it in a non Storm deck, and usually just wish it was a land. I'm pretty sure I'm going to ditch Petals for good in favor of just more fetchlands and basic lands.
Petal is pretty necessary to consistently race aggro. You can't always rely on always seeing Dark Ritual, and playing a turn four combo against Zoo without setting up any board presence aside from land, will lose you the game nearly every time. You really do need that extra speed.

Also, Pippo, I saw you had the Doomsday sideboard plan from your tournament report. What do you think about using up more slots in the sideboard and making it even more Doomsday focused, including the Meditate into Tendrils stack? This way you can Doomsday for either a Storm kill or a Shelldock-Emrakul kill.
You're using the Doomsday route mostly to fight counterbalancetop, going with Tendrils is not solving this, if anything it's making it worse.

pippo84

04-01-2011, 09:04 PM

Raystar

04-02-2011, 12:17 PM

Ok guys, prepare to call me crazy :)

This is the list I put together and used for some initial test (it seems it's working...). You'll notice a couple of peculiar choices MD but they are there as a compromise for the SB.

Here you go with the list:

4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize

4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox

2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 City of Traitors

The MD choices become clear when looking at the SB:

4 Show and Tell
4 Hive Mind
4 Pact of the Titan
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Intuition

After G1 you just take all your SB and shuffle it in the deck, then you remove 15 cards: 4 Buried Alive, 4 Reanimate, 2 Shallow Grave, the 4 combo critter and 1 Ponder.

What you get is very, very, very close to a standard S&T-Hive Mind list (you are basically missing 2 Pact of Negations) with a lot card fixers and enough mana acceleration for some very fast starts.

The merit of this type of transformational SB is that it is very resistant to many forms of hate and in a "clean" meta can have a devastating surprise effect.

If you get to G3 you have the choice of reverting to MD or stick to the SB, in any case you shuffle you SB in and select the 15 going out...kind of a poker game :)

Right now I would put this list in the "speculation" space, but I'll play it in a tournament (around 50-60 ppl) tomorrow and I'll let you know.

pippo84

04-02-2011, 09:23 PM

Please let us know how the tournament goes!

Btw my first list included 4 Pact of Negation and they where awsome against Blue decks, but terrible against the rest of the field, so I cut them. Anyways it's a card thy fits the deck very well even when fighting through hate G2-3.
After saying this I want to add that recently I was thinking of adding some extra counters to the deck (I love counters!!) so I thought of Daze or as a second choice Spell Pierce, but I don't want to cut anything from my list. The only card I could think of cutting ATM could be 1 Shallow Grave and thus go down to 5 reanimate spells.

In the first pages there was a list that played Hive Mind as a SB plan btw, I never tried it, but let us know your ideas on it after the tournament!

I tested Windux's list with Burning Wish and 1 Show & Tell, 1 Emrakul, 1 Doomsday main and went back to my list. Didn't like it for my playstile. Don't know why but found it very inconsistent, it plays for sure in a different way and has more answers and options, but going straight to the kill is best (in my opinion) for a combo deck. Anyways in the future I'll test with Burning Wish again, but with a different list I'll think of. The main reason I like the red splash is to have good anti-artifact spells, and if I had to play 3 colors I'd add City of Brass or Gemstone Mine instead of City of Traitors.

pippo84

04-02-2011, 09:23 PM

Raystar

04-04-2011, 02:43 AM

Here you go with a brief report of the tournament...The MD was awesome I only lost a G1 in the first match due to me not being very smart (kept a veeery bad hand) and ended 3-3 loosing the first match to Maverick (completely my fault, I'm an idiot :) ) and then to ANT and Canadian Threshold.

I won't go into details of the games I won (Zoo, Maverick, Affinity) other than say that everything went as planned: quick combo G1 and then laughing at the graveyard hate G2.

The matches I lost, instead, gave me some significant insight:

- ANT cannot be played with the transformational side, it's too fast and your disruption is just not enough. It would be better to stick to MD and hope that they don't have any extirpate in the SB.
- Canadian is not bad G1 (they will side in GY hate and spell pierce from the SB) but it becomes really difficult post side. I managed to slow roll both the 2nd and 3rd games but both times I was a little short from comboing off, even with an hand full of protection. To give you an idea in G3 I made him discard a FoW and still faced the following when I comboed off: daze, spell pierce, FoW and double stifle...and I had FoW, PoN, Hive Mind, S&T, double Pact of the Titan...

The SB wasn't bad but it is significantly less consistent than the MD, you need at least one more turn to combo and if it takes longer you may have to dig a second pact to make sure to close the deal.

I'm not sure I'll stick to this plan, the MD feels very solid but G2-3 are pain in the neck :)

pippo84

04-04-2011, 06:49 PM

I think that fighting hate is the best thing to do. You must know what the opponent will side in or at least understand what hate he will play. Going transformetional is losing speed and consistency. This is why I added 1 creature in the SB as a reanimation target, it fits with the main strategy of the deck!

I also think that combo is a very good MU for this deck: we play Force of Will and Thoughtseize (+ something else in the board) and we have a fast clock.
Instead from my experience Merfolk and Dreadstill are the worst MU's that we can find..

ivanpei

04-04-2011, 07:20 PM

The tops have been awesome. Single handedly won me every game against decks with heavy disruption like the rock. I play 9 fetches and no city of traitors so that may be why.

@ jaco, petals are needed for the reasons mentioned. You may not need 4, 3 is ok too. Btw most of the others prefer cantrips + 2 city of traitors and may be a little colored land light. I play full 16 colored for more consistency and fewer mulls.

4 polluted
3 misty
2 verdant
4 seas
2 island
1 swamp

Cheers.

Karhumies

04-07-2011, 11:15 AM

I was thinking of adding some extra counters to the deck (I love counters!!) so I thought of Daze or as a second choice Spell Pierce, but I don't want to cut anything from my list. The only card I could think of cutting ATM could be 1 Shallow Grave and thus go down to 5 reanimate spells.

I am testing 1-of Daze in place of 6th reanimation spell. Daze is more versatile than Pact of Negation (= usable also against non-blue), but not as versatile as Spell Pierce (SP is more usable on the draw G2/G3). Also ups the blue count. However, testing a 1-of support card is always contradictory: it's so rare to get the card in a match, that it's impossible to have any reliable results as such.

I can't seem to be able to run 2x Daze MD because of SB plan constraints (full transformational), but 2x Spell Pierce might be viable if you want to try that out. For second SP, I would probably take out 1x Ponder (fighting for similar slots: 1 mana non-Brainstorm, non-tutor blue card). But with less cantrips, you will need a slightly higher land count, so it's a bit tricky.

ivanpei

04-07-2011, 08:36 PM

@ Karhumies, I'm on the same page as you as I find the 6th reanimation spell too much. We only have 4 buried but 6 reanimation spells (4 Reanimate, 2 Exhume/Shallow Grave) + 1 Ooze which can also serve the same function as reanimate. I have cut down to 5 and have no problems assembling the combo. @ more than 8 disruption spells- I find this unwise because they tend to clog up your hand against aggro. I advise 2 tops MD because you can use them to smooth your draws, assemble the combo AND find more disruption in the slugfest against control.

pippo84

04-08-2011, 06:43 AM

I noticed the same thing: sometimes I have more reanimation spells in hand and feel like I could use 1 slot better, but sometimes I need to find that spell and I'm glad I play 6 instead of 5.

I'd like some more protection, but 1 slot is not enough, at least 2 for Spell Pierce/Daze/Dispel.

I can see why you like top in here, but again I could find just 1 slot in my MD at the moment and I would play 2 or 0 as you suggested. Anyways I still didn't test Top in here, but if I have a chanche I'll test it next week.

EDIT: How about if we start doing an in depth MU analysis? Like listing the most common decks and adding comments to why the Mu is good or bad.. In this way we can all share our experiences against different decks..

Karhumies

04-08-2011, 11:33 AM

@ more than 8 disruption spells- I find this unwise because they tend to clog up your hand against aggro. I advise 2 tops MD because you can use them to smooth your draws, assemble the combo AND find more disruption in the slugfest against control.

If the meta has a lot of midrange-style aggro with black cards to combat combo (= slower aggro with bigger creratures made to beat other aggro decks, and Tombstalker > Counterbalance), I would suggest running 9-11 protection spells MD. These kinds of decks typically open with T1 Duress/IoK/Thoughtseize, T2 Tarmogoyf. On the play, I have found T1 Spell Pierce / Daze to be very useful, probably even better than FoW because no card disadvantage and because they have a relatively slow but very consistent clock. As these kinds of decks do not run counters, all you need to win is to tutor up the combo and protect it in your hand until going off T3-T5 (depending on whether they have KotR->Bojuka Bog available).

Based on preliminary testing, I have found the 1-2 extra MD protection spells to help also versus tempo aggro decks splashing blue, which includes many non-CB Bant builds. It's often better to have an extra counter than an extra copy of tutor/BA/animation spell, because that 1 extra turn delay can cost your life in these MUs.

All in all, I am not facing much of mono-:u: decks in my meta, and I am preparing my build accordingly.

The thing I am trying to accomplish is to fit 2 top + 9-11 protection spells + 4 Brainstorm MD at the same time without running too low on the blue count or lands. It's challenging.

hyc8028

04-10-2011, 11:22 PM

First time playing combo in legacy. I sleeve this up and tested this list today.

Creature: 4
1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Aquamoeba
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Triskelion

Spell: 41
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Buried Alive
4x Reanimate
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Duress
4x Lim's Dul Vault
2x Shallow Grave
2x Spell Pierce
1x Echoing Truth

Land: 15
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Underground Sea
2x Swamp
2x Island

SB: 15
4x Pithing Needle
4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Echoing Truth
1x Wipe Away
2x Spell Pierce

I played against Affinity, BUG Control and Deadguy Ale. Affinity wasn't much problem. I just go off on turn 2 in every game pre board. I played against BUG 2 game pre borad. 1st game I got a nut draw and double FoW back up. 2nd game he hit me with hymn twice, but LDV help me get the missing pieces. Deadguy Ale gave me some problem because he plays 3 revoker, 4 tidehollow sculler have 4 thoughtseize and 4 duress MD. Pre board Brainstorm help a lot. I had a game where he had revoker out naming ooze. I had all my combo piece in the yard. I reanimate my ooze, then shallow grave my trisk, remove a counter to shoot itself, then i shoot the revoker down. I proceed to activate twice to get it in the grave and win with ooze.

Here are my takes on the 75:

1 of Echoing Truth is aright, but it needs more testing to see if it is MD worthy. It is my outs on revoker and chalice and other random crap.

I actually own 2 personal tutor, but I feel they are slow and clunky. Plus, I hate cards disadvantage. I rather have more protection spell like spell pierce or daze.

LDV is so good that I ll always play 4. My friends refer this as a poor man Ad Nausem.

I hate my opening 7 with petal too, but we need that extra mana to go off.

15 lands is enough with all that contrip, but I feel the basics are lackluster especially with Doomsday CMC. I would probably try -1 island, -1 swamp for +2 Darkslick Shore for more mana fixing. I only own 3 seas.

Game 1 this deck is just sick. It is possible to go off turn 2 or turn 3 most of the time if they can't interact with you.

I tried the "fight the grave hate" and doomsday post board. Doomsday is very powerful, but I messed up many times today. Extirpate just rape this deck tho with either plan. My friend extirpate my doomsday after doomsday resolve to mess up the order of my library, so I can't draw the shelldock isle.

On top of the match up analysis, is it possible to do a doomsday section too? A combo noob like me can use more help in that area.

kingsey

04-11-2011, 12:29 AM

vs an unknown meta would you bring this vs stanard entomb/iona?

also seems once they sideboard in grave hate am i screwed?

I really like the idea of once i reanimate i win and dont have to bother with attacking but im worried if that plan fails i scoop?

ivanpei

04-11-2011, 01:45 AM

Nice Job at the Trisk vs Revoker play! I hadn't thought of that, I thought we just lose to Revoker. I also find personal tutor slow and clunky but it's a good card to have since you need action. If you are in a slower meta with more blue/black decks, swapping tutors for spell pierce etc is fine.

@ Kingsey, we have alternative plans in the board that do not depend on the yard like Show and Tell/Emrakul or Doomsday/Shelldock. I prefer Show and Tell because it also dodges wasteland and needle but in heavy blue metas w/o wastes/needle, the Doomsday plan may be better.

hyc8028

04-11-2011, 02:05 AM

I don't want to spoil NPH here, but with a new yard hate any deck can use and it is free, maybe it is time to cut the tutors to add more discard/counter?

forsmark

04-11-2011, 12:20 PM

I don't want to spoil NPH here, but with a new yard hate any deck can use and it is free, maybe it is time to cut the tutors to add more discard/counter?

I don't really see the point. It's an Extirpate that's easier to play around if you ask me. I think most decks that wants to bring yard hate are still gonna bring Relic/Crypt. I know that I rarely have been thinking "I want to run Extirpate in SB, but I am not playing black...".

jamis

04-11-2011, 12:39 PM

You can play it when you're tapped out though, which is pretty huge. Think about it this way, before this card, if you had the turn 1 nuts on the play, there was nothing your opponent could do aside from FoW. Now, every deck can stop that situation. A free instant speed answer is something to worry about. Although, if it does see wideplay, we'll just adjust the SB. Increasing counterspells or discard instead of bounce and needles or whatever.

Draener

04-11-2011, 01:02 PM

Excellent. More ways to hate James out of the metagame. Take that combo!

jamis

04-11-2011, 01:33 PM

Haha, yeah because Tezzeret counterbalance wasn't bad enough. Great.

Karhumies

04-11-2011, 08:32 PM

Why would ANYONE play MD Surgical Extraction (= dead card)? Furthermore, why should we be concerned about grave hate in G2+?

Sorry guys, but I fail to see a problem here.
(Exception: Someone plans to Wasteland + S.Extract all of opponent's duals and fetches - something against which we are quite protected already, anyway.)

On a more explanatory side note:
If S.Extraction begins to see more SB play, it means that my opponents are packing non-cantripping dead cards G2 (instead of their Relics which at least cantrip). This may even bring down their life total by 2. 2 from SE + 3 fetches = 1 Emrakul swing FTW. May become relevant.

Also, getting your (potentially countered) Show and Tell or Doomsday S.Extracted in G2 is less bad than getting it Extirpated. So what's the deal here, really?

Dredge players are the ones who should be afraid, as their non-blue opponents have just gained a meaningful way of interacting against them G2+ on the draw (without land drops). Not that many non-black decks have packed Leyline of the Void so far (and Dredge may be able to bounce or destroy it post-SB), Ravenous Trap is too narrow to be sideboarded into a wide meta, and Mindbreak Trap does not even hit Dredge. But S.Extract the first Bridge from Below? That's brutal. Also, having to Cabal Therapy blindly for S.Extraction over FoW post-SB is quite bad for them as well.

hyc8028

04-11-2011, 11:10 PM

Is cloud of faeries that important in the Doomsday package? I often found myself either go for a quick Doomsday off ritual or petal and often want more discard/bounce to protect emrakul. The faerie is just taking up another slots in the SB.

ivanpei

04-12-2011, 05:19 AM

It's like any other grave hate to me. Sb show and tell laughs at it.

pippo84

04-12-2011, 12:03 PM

JCLe

04-12-2011, 03:44 PM

:mad:

Why did they print another GY Hate???

Anyways we'll play around it, change sideboard cards or just go for the transformational way..

Not worried about it atm..

In what MU's does Show and Tell SB shine?

Ha, I don't think this'll be used more than faerie macabre (which is very underused already, and better against us)

Show and Tell is really good against any non-kotr tempo (unless your planning on drawing thoughtseize and blanking the gsz's, which sounds pretty nutsy to me). Aside from that, I guess it's pretty good against everything... works against control and high tide also.

I still don't think it's better than our main combo though, but that's me.

ivanpei

04-12-2011, 09:39 PM

Show and tell shines against the midrange/control decks because you don't have to play 4 slots for combo components (ooze, trike, devourer, narco). This gives you 4 more slots for disruption. Against aggro/combo snt is not as good because it's slower. Aggro can race your t3 Emmy if they are on the play. Snt also sucks against kotr-karakas and jace. Jace is not as bad because you can be quicker than it and/or counter/thoughtseize jace. Snt also dodges needle, counterbalance and especially gravehate.

ivanpei

04-14-2011, 02:01 AM

I just picked up some foil steel sabotages lately and was trying to find some uses for them. It suddenly struck me that it's the perfect sb card if you are fighting the hate. The most common hate you expect is crypt/relic and needle/revoker. Steel sabotage bounces all of these yet serves double duty against other things like sensei's divining top. Being able to counter is very relevant. Ever stared at chain of vapor against a challice @ 1? How bout a trinisphere? Yup. Ever wanted to deal with top to prevent the counterbalance lock but only have chain/echoing truth? Yeap. Steel sabotage just does so many things, it is awesome. Against storm combo you can even counter LEDs with it! Same for painter's servant and various other annoying things.

hyc8028

04-14-2011, 02:38 AM

@ Steel sabotage: I like this card, but I think it might a bit narrow unless you know what other people are playing, plus our list is really tight with all that anti hate and transformation SB. Spell pierce is a better counter. We have wipe away to deal with CB. We have echoing truth to deal with leyline/(insert any permanent here). Hurkyl's Recall can take out multiple anti hate.

Here is my SB currently:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Doomsday
2x Spell Pierce
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Emrakul
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyl's Recall

Karhumies

04-15-2011, 07:25 PM

I like the idea of Steel Sabotage, but much like the previous poster said, I think we need a catch-all in the "anti-hate" slot. Something which can deal with Leyline of the Void / Leyline of Sanctity as well, not just artifacts. Therefore, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away are my main choices.

Since S.Sabotage can not replace a catch-all, it needs to replace something else, such as SB S.Pierce or MD Thoughtseize. But both of these alternatives already answer artifacts; in fact, they are much wider answers than S.Sabotage is. So I would recommend S.Sabotage only to a specific metagame (e.g. low Zoo, low tribal, low NO-Bant, low burn, low high tide, high counterbalance, high ANT/TES, high Affinity, high DredgeStill).

@ Previous poster: No Cloud of Faeries? Doesn't that slow down many of your resolved DD piles by a full turn? Can you afford it?

pippo84

04-15-2011, 09:05 PM

I aso think that Steel Sabotage it too narrow. That's why I cut Hurlkey's Recall from my SB, having a catch all answer is better: Echoing Truth.

As for not having Cloud of Faeries in the SB, yes it slows you down, but generally you can wait that extra turn ftw.

tsabo_tavoc

04-18-2011, 10:34 AM

I am testing Intuition instead of LDV and the general feeling is the 1 more cost is worth the immediate card. Petals are replaced by Sol lands, further sacrificing explosiveness for card advantage. The move is obviously good against control and midrange. For aggro and combo matchups, this is not necessarily bad as LDV often causes me game loss by waiting 2 turns (for a land and a combo piece) and sometimes a great amount of life. More tests are needed to justify the change and I'd like to hear your ideas. As a sample list,

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder/Preordain
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Personal Tutor
4 Intuition
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Aquamoeba
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catatomb

Allthough the total damage capacity of this list is down to 28, shooting 20 is still commonplace and more occasions need to be solved by Aquamoeba (to swap the P/T of Ooze and enable shoots by Intuition and Buried Alive).

Also note Intuition can grab more than combo pieces and protection, but also helps assemble the combo in some cases:
1. Reanimate and Necrotic Ooze in hand: Intuition for 3 other creatures, opponent gives you a robot, you proceed to cast the Ooze, reanimate the Aquamoeba, and discard the robot for the win.
2. Reanimate and Aquamoeba in hand: Intuition for 3 other creatures, opponent gives you a robot, you proceed to cast Aquamoeba, reanimate the Ooze, and discard the robot for the win.
3. 2 Reanimate and any robot: Intuition for 3 other creatures, opponent gives you a robot, you proceed to cast 2 reanimates and win.

I will spin more with the list and welcome your comments:)

JACO

04-18-2011, 03:50 PM

@JACO: I totally agree with what jamis wrote. I also don't lice Lotus Petal a lot, sometimes it's just dead, but the deck needs some other sort of acceleration to win early. You can always shuffle them away with Brainstorm if you don't need them.

Regarding the Doomsday piles at first I thought of the Storm pile, but my main plan is to fight hate and DD is mainly used against Counterbalance and heavy control lists or against decks with too much GY hate. Note that this differs from the lists that go for Show and Tell, because they go for full transformational usually.

What are your impressions on the deck so far?I have ditched Lotus Petal entirely now and am running 19 lands. I was mulliganing WAY too much before (like 2-4 times per match it seemed was the minimum). After adding more lands I haven't looked back. I may try to incorporate a couple of Ancient Tombs, as I really don't like City of Traitors in decks that have a ton of fetchlands.

I would be using the Doomsday route to both fight Counterbalance and to circumvent graveyard hate. I have tried out a lot of sideboard plans so far (Show and Tell, Doomsday, Painter-Grindstone), and nothing seems all that great. I will continue to search for something awesome.

I'm also playing a Force of Will-less list, as I really never want to pitch the Blue card because I need it. Having 4 Thoughtseize + 3 Duress doesn't cost me a card, proactively clears the way of Extirpate, and is much better at giving me a clue as to how much time I have in the game after I've seen my opponent's hand. I can't see going back to the Force of Will version either.

I'll try to test a variation the Burning Wish version, which I think has a lot of potential to execute different game plans (albeit with a slightly shakier manabase).

tsabo_tavoc

04-21-2011, 08:31 AM

Am I the only sad panda seeing Mental Misstep raping this deck? The deck becomes even slower and Exhume/Shallow Grave replacing some Reanimate (1cc; 4 life often matters) seems obvious.

Our only 1cc hosers are Mental Misstep and Thoughtseize which does not seem enough to justify playing Mental Misstep.

jamis

04-21-2011, 09:34 AM

I wouldn't claim it's the end of the world until we see how much play the card sees and what it replaces in the decks that use it. We still run 4-8 Duress effects plus counter protection, so if people are removing counterspells for it, you're still fighting through the same amount of counterspells. We also don't know what decks will be playing it -- Countertop? Well casting reanimate was never great in that match-up anyway. Merfolk? Could be a bit more annoying, but they might stick with Daze/Spell Pierce as it goes with their mana denial/tax plan. I would wait to see how the card effects decks in the meta before building with it in mind.

edit: and we won't play Mental Misstep. Our protection still needs to hit FoW first and foremost.

egosum

04-23-2011, 08:07 AM

Last days I' ve been testing and thinking about this build (let's call it Reactivator, as I read somewhere and thought it was cool enough). And there are some points I really don't get about the deck so can please the more experienced players enlighten me?

1- Why do you play Dark ritual over Anceint Tomb? I know there should be 2 lines of thought about this.

Pros of Dark Ritual:

-Enables 1st Turn Kill along with a god hand (i.e. Dark ritual + Lotus Petal + Buried ALive + Reanimate, for instance)
-Permits Doomsday transformatiional side

Pros of Ancient Tomb:

-Makes the mana base stronger
-Is not a one shot trick
-Makes Show and Tell sideboard better
-Doens't die to mental Misstep. I don't personally think that MM will redefine LÑegacy , or something, as some say, but what is definitely true is that MM is on Hype and this means, as happens to all the Hype cars that we will see it played for at least 2 moths after NPH is released, so is important to keep that in mind.

If you add that IMO S&T side is >> to DD side (for many reasons, S&T is Blue it helps to keep the blue count High so we can Pitch confortably, dies to less hate than doosday so is more robust, is a lot faster than DD, while normally doomsday works as: Turn X: DD, Turn X+1: play the Isle, Turn X+2: Beat for 15 and win next turn, if X=1 which is I guess best case scenario is still 1 Turn slower than S&T). this all makes Ancient Tomb better than Ritual...

Am I Wrong?

2-Why don't you play Intuition?

Intuition is super strong just because we have enough ways to deal with the monster in our hand (aquamoeba or Thoughtseize). Intuition is even stronger if we play Acneint Tomb.

This is the list I'm testing for reference:

"Reactivator"

Maindeck 60

Lands 19

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
3x "Blue Fetch"
1x "Black Fetch"

4x Lotus Petal

4x Buried Alive
3x Intuition

4x Reanimate
3x Swallow Grave

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Thoughtseize

1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Triskelion
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Aquamoeba

Side 15

4x Show and Tell
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Iona Shiled of Emeria
3xSpell Pierce
3x Pithing Needle

Some things I'm still deciding:

-3 Intuition + 3 Shallow Grave: I decided to try this configuration first since having 7 tutors (4x Buried + 3 Intuition) seemed enough plus having a pack of 3 hallow grave looks important if we are playing intuition in case it needs to be tutored. Also Shallowgrave will stay in the eck when we side Emrakul in so we can reanimate for a single blow if needed.

-4 Daze + 3 Thoughtseize: it can be the other way round, but I thought the free cost of daze will make the cut better than Seize. Have to test.

-The side seems quite simple but I think we have all the tools we need to find hate propperly, am I missing something important?

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

troopatroop

05-04-2011, 06:27 PM

I like your list, but Mental Misstep is much better than Daze on the draw! It stops Nacatl and Goblin Lackey, Duress on turn 1?

I can see the advantages of Daze as well, but Mental Misstep also hurts this deck (Reanimate).

oblivion4560

05-08-2011, 01:20 AM

Mark Sun

05-08-2011, 01:34 AM

I don't care to read all 11 pages of this thread to see if someone else has posted this yet, but Ooze doesn't care about its power like PD does. Ooze takes all activated abilities of creatures in graveyards, but it definitely doesn't get the drawback. RTFC.

If an activated ability of a card in a graveyard references the card it's printed on by name, treat Necrotic Ooze's version of that ability as though it referenced Necrotic Ooze by name instead. For example, if Cudgel Troll (which says "{G}: Regenerate Cudgel Troll") is in a graveyard, Necrotic Ooze has the ability "{G}: Regenerate Necrotic Ooze."

RTFC? RTFO, as in Oracle.

I know you're just starting to contribute, but even common sense (which I have learned is at a premium online) would tell you that we weren't just jerking off for 11 pages. Or maybe we were, just not about this topic.

troopatroop

05-17-2011, 02:59 PM

I've secretly been looking to build this deck for awhile. I love the speed, and I'm a believer in the new cards.

4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Shallow Grave

1 Triskelion
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

3 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

2 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand

The most interesting card in my testings is Gitaxian Probe. It competes with Ponder for deckspace, but I believe Probe to be superior. The information is invaluable for this deck, and the free card/cost is good. You give up some card selection, but Vault and Personal Tutor both make up for it and work with it. Also, My opponents almost always Mental Misstep my Gitaxian Probe, and that's good for us.

Why don't others play Exhume as a Personal Tutor target? It's come up several times for me.

Mental Misstep is important in protecting our spells. Free things are good! :D

Thoughts?

ivanpei

05-18-2011, 05:29 AM

kusumoto

05-18-2011, 09:43 AM

I'm pretty excited about using Misstep against opposing pithing needles. That card has given me fits before because I like to actually play the deck instead of boarding in Show and Tell.

I think the fighting hate plan may have just gotten a bit stronger now that we can hard counter needles and relics with no real disadvantage.

troopatroop

05-18-2011, 02:55 PM

I love misstep and it is >> daze. I'm guessing it protects us from other missteps and duress effects. I just don't know about missteps replacing the 3rd and 4th seize. The deck needs to answer revoker/force too so I'd be inclined to play at least the 3rd seize before any missteps. Probe is useful. I think that you're gonna miss the card selection ponder gives you in the long run though. Sure the info is useful, but I missed ponder's digging power.

If anything, it's a close race.

Ponder costs 1 mana for an entirely different effect. Probe costs 0 for a card and perfect information. These are two entirely different things, and only time will tell what we need more, but that's pretty good for zero mana. Probe lets you know what's coming, and free draw is amazing with Personal Tutor and Lim-Dul's Vault. 4 Brainstorm/4 Vault/2 Tutor seems like enough card selection.

My logic behind going to 2 Thoughtseize, is that the 3 Probes will compensate for information. Yes you fear Force of Will and Revoker, but Revoker is seldom MD and Force is nothing to fear. I'm not cutting Misstep for Thoughtseize, but Misstep certainly deserves its slots. I'm trying to fit a 4th.

Probe feels like streetwraith all over again. It messes up my mull decisions. For example, would you keep a hand with probe and 1 land? Iffy, but I'd keep a ponder + 1 lander.

I always have 1 exhume in my lists. I think that 5 reanimate effects is enough though. Being able to tutor for exhume to blank missteps is even more important now (or to force them to misstep the tutor).

Probe is much better than Streetwraith. It Peeks for free, pitches to FoW, and baits Misstep! It's mostly made my opening hands stronger.

pippo84

05-18-2011, 04:46 PM

In my MD I won't change any slots because of Misstep. Maybe I'll add some to the SB if I find space..

troopatroop

05-19-2011, 01:25 AM

Seeing as Mental Misstep is the best card ever against our deck, I think we have to play it.

"Forcing" through Reanimate is GG. It's terrific protection.

Also note how Gitaxian Probe makes 1 land Brainstorm hands more keepable, seeing 4 cards on the play and 5 on the draw.

ivanpei

05-19-2011, 03:06 AM

Misstep definitely has to be somewhere on the 75, that's a given. How many main, I'm not sure. Having said that, I feel that misstep has really weakened this deck or any combo deck in general. It doesn't shut us down, but it does weaken us. I used to laugh at daze but now that misstep pretty much replaces/supplements daze, it's getting harder to beat blue preboard. Misstep + show and tell plan in the board seems pretty sick though. You can choose either to fight the hate or to swap To snt. Misstep helps both plans.

pippo84

05-19-2011, 09:49 AM

In my list, adding Misstep would lead to the following changes:

-1 Thoughtseize -2 Personal Tutor + 3 Misstep

Also 2 Ponders could be swapped out instead of PT, what do you suggest? Anyways I'm more favorable of adding MM in this SB..

troopatroop

05-19-2011, 12:21 PM

I also think Mental Misstep hurts this deck alot. For that reason, we should run Gitaxian Probe! They won't always have it, and if we have a way of "checking" and baiting beforehand + Missteps/FoW/Thoughtseize of our own, I still feel confident in the power level of the deck. I went -1 Shallow Grave +1 Thoughtseize to my list, and the 9 protection spells has been great. Thoughtseize is the ultimate MM bait.

evanmartyr

05-19-2011, 01:48 PM

tsabo_tavoc

05-19-2011, 03:33 PM

I feel like a dickhead, but I proxied up a list without Lim Dul's Vault and tried it, and it was terrible. So I tried a Lim Dul's Vault version, and it was good, but it was still terrible. The deck is noticeably slower than most other combo decks in the format, gets absolutely trashed by disruption, and can dodge MMS effectively only by slowing down a large amount and ditching consistency. Even with Intuition, it's rough.

I like the Intuition version (with Tomb+Rit) more than the LDV (with Petal+Rit) one and I found both of them slow even before the release of MMS.

Something basic needs to change. Far too often you'll mulligan great hands because they include a critter, or if you keep them you stand around waiting to draw into another reanimate spell just to jump through hoops to rearrange your hand and graveyard into the correct configuration to go off. Or you have to spend turns just searching for a combo piece. This is like Tooth and Nail, but it's not running anything that would allow for a win other than an entwined tooth and nail. I'm not sure that's the greatest game plan.

Great 6+a creature are solid opening hands. You either bury Aquamoeba alive and win from there, or the Intuition can function as Buried Alive if the creature in hand is Ooze or Aquamoeba. Like with every 2-card-combo deck, there are games ending up chaining cantrips and finding nothing.

@troopatroop: I kind of like the idea of Personal Tutor + Gitaxian Probe and MMS seems to be workable in each blue deck, but the life loss from them can make LDV even worse, another reason to run Intuition? And, MMS hurts more than a little, how about changing the split between Exhume and Reanimate?

evanmartyr

05-19-2011, 03:55 PM

Great 6+a creature are solid opening hands. You either bury Aquamoeba alive and win from there, or the Intuition can function as Buried Alive if the creature in hand is Ooze or Aquamoeba. Like with every 2-card-combo deck, there are games ending up chaining cantrips and finding nothing.

This is the major problem I had with the deck: the "solid" opening hands are just awful. Where a stock reanimator list would just reanimate something and win (or whatever), in the above situation we'd have to dig for a brainstorm -> buried alive->two reanimate spells, or intuition->two reanimate spells. Doing all this costs mana, and you just don't have that kind of time.

@troopatroop: I kind of like the idea of Personal Tutor + Gitaxian Probe and MMS seems to be workable in each blue deck, but the life loss from them can make LDV even worse, another reason to run Intuition? And, MMS hurts more than a little, how about changing the split between Exhume and Reanimate?

This kind of ties in to the consistency concern: the life loss would be workable if the deck could consistently put the win together turn 1-2, had some other way of putting pressure on the opponent early in the game, or wasn't trading life for such an easily disruptable plan.

tsabo_tavoc

05-19-2011, 04:14 PM

This is the major problem I had with the deck: the "solid" opening hands are just awful. Where a stock reanimator list would just reanimate something and win (or whatever), in the above situation we'd have to dig for a brainstorm -> buried alive->two reanimate spells, or intuition->two reanimate spells. Doing all this costs mana, and you just don't have that kind of time.

This kind of ties in to the consistency concern: the life loss would be workable if the deck could consistently put the win together turn 1-2, had some other way of putting pressure on the opponent early in the game, or wasn't trading life for such an easily disruptable plan.

The combo is not as bad as you thought. Ooze has the ability of the Aquamoeba in your graveyard. If you have Aquamoeba in hand, Buried Alive/Intuition+Reanimate is enough to go off; If you have Ooze in hand, you only need a Buried Alive or Intuition+Reanimate. If you have any robot in hand, Buried Alive+Reanimate or Intuition + 2 Reanimate will combo off.

I agree with you about Life loss VS speed and what makes LDV bad is that it helps neither.

Karhumies

05-19-2011, 06:21 PM

P.Tutor + Gitaxian Probe > P. Tutor + Ponder.

However, 4x Ponder should be worth about 0.5 lands (read that somewhere long time ago), while Probe makes no difference. Therefore, switching back to Probe should equal -0.5 lands, which needs to be recovered somehow.

In other news, I hope that Mental Misstep will see Counterbalance on the rise again -> less TES, ANT, High Tide decks, etc. in the meta -> less combo hate in the meta -> good for us.

How to go around opposing Mental Misstep? Having G.Probe in the main and extra Shallow Grave in SB would be my choice. LDV -> Buried Alive -> Shallow Grave completely misses opposing Mental Misstep (where Daze and Spell Snare would have hit). This improves our monoblue Landstill and Jacestill matchups somewhat (which were hideous before), since they have dropped some Dazes and/or Spell Snares for Mental Misstep. The real problem is when decks with a fast clock (Merfolk) play MD Misstep, when the slower extra mana cards used to go around MM will actually cost us the game.

This is all just speculation; my meta has not yet had any significant events after NPH became legal, so I don't know the current popularity and standpoint on MM in my region. One of my concerns, however, is that Sneaky Show may have gone past Ooze in raw power due to Sneak Attack -> Blightsteel Colossus with Mental Misstep backup for StoP.

As for standard reanimator lists...good luck resolving even T1 Entomb. Previously, there was only FoW, now there's FoW + Mental Misstep. Bleargh.

pippo84

05-19-2011, 07:02 PM

troopatroop

05-19-2011, 10:48 PM

Sorry, but are you serious about Probe in this deck? It does absolutely nothing. Ok, I see your hand. Oh, you have Force and Misstep. Great. I can't combo off. With Thoughtseize at least I can take 1 away.

This is just shortsighted. I still play my 3 Thoughtseize, and it replaces itself! It makes Personal Tutor better as well.

I just like Lim-Dul's Vault because it can be anything. You can even get two cards out of it with Probe! That can be the Brainstorm that puts a robot back in the deck, Or the Wipe Away for Counterbalance, or the Thoughtseize to take FoW. Gitaxian Probe is more versatile than you think.

I feel like a dickhead, but I proxied up a list without Lim Dul's Vault and tried it, and it was terrible. So I tried a Lim Dul's Vault version, and it was good, but it was still terrible. The deck is noticeably slower than most other combo decks in the format, gets absolutely trashed by disruption, and can dodge MMS effectively only by slowing down a large amount and ditching consistency. Even with Intuition, it's rough.

Something basic needs to change. Far too often you'll mulligan great hands because they include a critter, or if you keep them you stand around waiting to draw into another reanimate spell just to jump through hoops to rearrange your hand and graveyard into the correct configuration to go off. Or you have to spend turns just searching for a combo piece. This is like Tooth and Nail, but it's not running anything that would allow for a win other than an entwined tooth and nail. I'm not sure that's the greatest game plan.

I hate to post with no constructive criticism, but that's my experience with the deck.

Thank you for your post, but you seem to only be focussing on the bad. You don't always draw robots, and good hands are godlike. This deck is better than other combo decks at both protecting it's combo and finding the win after disruption. This is a turn 2-3 Combo deck with protection spells, so you can't have everything. The combo costs 4 mana in total, and it wins you the game on the spot. Brainstorm those creatures to the top, and win the game. It's not that hard.

Reanimator has its problems too, in that it depends on Entomb and Attacking. I've found Intuition to be too slow.

pippo84

05-20-2011, 10:38 AM

evanmartyr

05-20-2011, 01:11 PM

Maybe I'm shortsighted, but Ponder is better at digging for cards than Probe. Thoughtseize is better than Probe at looking opponent's hands. I'll just stick with the 2, but I'll be glad to hear how your testing goes with Probe. In my opinion it's just a sub-par card to play.

@evanmartyr: Don't know the version that you proxied, but this deck rocks! You can easily dodge hate with Thoughtseize and Force of Will, it's consistent because all cards are played as a 4 of and it's really fast. Sometimes you can just combo off on turn 1, but usually you do it between turn 2-3. One of the best MU's for this deck is opposite combo decks! Btw Lim Dul's Vault is necessary and Intuition should not be played.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about the Narcomoeba interaction...so that makes a lot of the hands better and would have sped up my games quite a lot.

I think I may try this at the next Legacy tourney at my LGS, since bringing Belcher a couple weeks in a row seems unsporting. I'll let you guys know how it goes, but before I do, I have a few questions:

1: Why run Force of Wills before you've maxed out on MMS? The major threats to the deck (other than Leyline of the Void, which we scoop to hilariously) all cost 1 mana, and 2 life is much cheaper than 1 life and a card.

2: Given that the deck runs plenty of search and disruption, it may be worthwhile to attempt to dodge opponents' disruption by just going to 2mana reanimators only. If you can Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition your opponent and mostly ignore their Mental Missteps, that gives you that much more leeway to make the disruption you have the time to cast count.

troopatroop

05-20-2011, 01:40 PM

1: Why run Force of Wills before you've maxed out on MMS? The major threats to the deck (other than Leyline of the Void, which we scoop to hilariously) all cost 1 mana, and 2 life is much cheaper than 1 life and a card.

Other Forces, Counterbalance, Ad Nauseam, etc. It's a split between MMS/FOW/Thoughtseize, but running more than 9-10 protection spells is tough. Lim-Dul's Vault into Wipe Away also solves permanent based problems like Leyline, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and Crypt affects. Thoughtseize probably deserves 3-4 slots as well for the ability to discard your own creatures, so the room is tight! I play 3 of each, personally.

2: Given that the deck runs plenty of search and disruption, it may be worthwhile to attempt to dodge opponents' disruption by just going to 2mana reanimators only. If you can Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition your opponent and mostly ignore their Mental Missteps, that gives you that much more leeway to make the disruption you have the time to cast count.

At first my reaction was no, as Reanimate is so easy to cast. Mental Misstep would be the only reason, and I think that's a bold conclusion to come to when Daze, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce are all still in the format. Still, It's an interesting idea.

troopatroop

05-22-2011, 06:57 PM

Howabout a copy of Turbulent Dreams to discard combo pieces and bounce Leylines/Crypt? Reanimator played it to success at BoM.

Karhumies

05-23-2011, 12:08 PM

Howabout a copy of Turbulent Dreams to discard combo pieces and bounce Leylines/Crypt? Reanimator played it to success at BoM.

Problem: It's a Sorcery.

We can not Buried Alive when the Leyline/Crypt is in play to save mana for next turn Turbulent. Neither do we have the mana to Turbulent + Buried Alive + Reanimate (6 mana) during a single turn. If we Turbulent + Buried Alive-> pass the turn, Turbulent has failed because the opponent most likely just replays the bounced card. Also, if we Turbulent by discarding a critical robot and they respond e.g. by activating Tormod, we have just lost the game.

Reanimator is a different breed in that Turbulent + Entomb + Reanimate is just 4 mana, which is somewhat manageable. However, the critical point is that for Reanimator, losing 1 (sub-par) target due to Turbulent is negligible, whilst as for Ooze losing 1 component means losing the game. Also, the BoM Reanimator was really old school build (no New Phyrexia!), when I think animator strategy has become stronger BECAUSE of the NP cards could go into the deck.

troopatroop

05-23-2011, 12:28 PM

Problem: It's a Sorcery.

We can not Buried Alive when the Leyline/Crypt is in play to save mana for next turn Turbulent. Neither do we have the mana to Turbulent + Buried Alive + Reanimate (6 mana) during a single turn. If we Turbulent + Buried Alive-> pass the turn, Turbulent has failed because the opponent most likely just replays the bounced card. Also, if we Turbulent by discarding a critical robot and they respond e.g. by activating Tormod, we have just lost the game.

Reanimator is a different breed in that Turbulent + Entomb + Reanimate is just 4 mana, which is somewhat manageable. However, the critical point is that for Reanimator, losing 1 (sub-par) target due to Turbulent is negligible, whilst as for Ooze losing 1 component means losing the game. Also, the BoM Reanimator was really old school build (no New Phyrexia!), when I think animator strategy has become stronger BECAUSE of the NP cards could go into the deck.

You're right. I so desperately wanted it to work, but Alas...

Karhumies

05-23-2011, 12:31 PM

In related news, I feel that both Reanimator and Sneaky Show strategies have got so many new toys in New Phyrexia that I think both of those decks are superior to Ooze strategy atm.

Let's re-cap what I mean:

Mental Misstep
- equally usable in all three strategies, although marginally more valuable against opposing StoP

Jin-Gitaxias
- huge for Reanimator
- potentially huger for Sneaky Show, as they can EOT sneak Jin into play and make opponent discard 7, then swing in their turn and draw 7 before the guy dies

Elesh Norn
- Reanimator now wins consistently versus Dredge. Also Elves and Goblins get completely slaughtered (stronger than Iona).

Sheoldred
- SB card for Reanimator to provide a recurring Edict effect

Blightsteel Colossus
- If no blockers, Sneak Attack FTW (printed earlier but unusable before Mental Misstep back-up)

Jin & Elesh make Reanimator's fundamental turn against opposing combos, Tribal decks and other mass creature-based decks - such as Green & Taxes and UW Tempo (all slightly unfavorable MUs before) improve significantly.
Jin & Blightsteel make Sneaky Show's fundamental turn come completely out of nowhere vs opposing "goldfish" (including us).
Ooze receives only Mental Misstep - which all the other decks are using against Ooze as well.

comeback

05-26-2011, 10:48 AM

This is the list I'm going to test:

Maindeck: 61 Cards

[Combo Piece] 4
1x Triskelion
1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Oona's Prowler
[Protection] 10
4x Thoughtseize
3x Mental Misstep
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
[Tutors & Cantrip] 14
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Personal Tutor
3x Lim Dul's Vault
2x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
[Reanimator Tools] 11
4x Reanimate
3x Shallow Grave
4x Buried Alive
[Accelaration] 4
4x Dark Ritual
[Lands] 18
4x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x Swamp

Sideboard: 15 Cards

4x Show and Tell
3x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3x Stifle
1x Perish
1x Echoing Truth
1x Mental Misstep

Idea is to have a deck that is not really the best in term of speed but that could manage the first 2-3 turns and after just combo with at least 1 protection and maybe looking at opponent's hand.

No Ponder or Preordain just because:

LDV + Sensei's and/or Gitaxian Probe
PT + Sensei's or Gitaxian Probe
Sensei's + 9 Fetch

B plan is just a fully protect easy to play show&tell gameplan -14 cards maindeck + 8-9 Show&Tell combo pieces means possibility to add additional protections/bouncer.

Post side without B plan in case of Tormod's/Relic mix shall be something like:
-1x Inquisition of Kozilek
-2x Gitaxian Probe
-1x Reanimate
+3x Stifle
+1x Mental Misstep

Post side without B plan in case of Wheel of Sun&Moon/Leylines mix shall be something like:
-1x Reanimate
+1x Echoing Truth

ivanpei

06-05-2011, 07:04 AM

IMO, force has been pretty important from my testing. I've found that misstep is great in the board when paired with Snt plan. The thing about md misstep is that it doesn't do that much. You don't need to counter stp, and you can ignore vial/dudes because the deck is so fast. Misstep is basically used to fight other missteps which is very narrow IMO. The nightmare card for this deck is md revoker and heavy discard like hymn. This deck has been weakened a lot by misstep so I've shifted my focus to other decks at the moment until something awesome gets printed.

death

06-07-2011, 10:39 PM

O hay Guys,
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/hash/f2/bb/f2bbd0bc3598f0a26f1c226b4f267f9e.jpg
it's been a WHILE

Cire

06-08-2011, 02:32 PM

since this deck got a new toy i'll start the discussion of what cards to run with it:

Death's shadow : for +13/+13 pump
Empyrial Archangel : for ultimate saftey (with shadow you have a 18/21 angel)
Putrefax : for instawin (with shadow you have a 17/17 putrefax

Anything better out there?

Mr.Dieth

06-08-2011, 02:40 PM

Why would this be preferable to the necrotic combo ?

With the mimeoplasm combo you are more vulnerable to more things for exemple: peacekeeper, diabolic edict, chumpers ( if you go for the archangel plan ).

And there is nothing which is good against the necrotic ooze combo and is not good against the mimeoplasm thing.

So I think necotic ooze is just plain better ..

kusumoto

06-08-2011, 02:46 PM

How exactly does the Mimeoplasm do anything for this deck?

edit: Ok so it's a bad alternate plan. Well that's neat.

death

06-08-2011, 09:47 PM

And there is nothing which is good against the necrotic ooze combo and is not good against the mimeoplasm thing.

So I think necotic ooze is just plain better ..

Might be true, but then there's Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Cursed Totem, and Damping Matrix. All of which require colorless mana and therefore ANY deck can easily board into. While Peacekeeper and black removal spells are played mainly by Ubw(x) Landstill, which is a bad match up to begin with.

pippo84

06-27-2011, 12:14 PM

It's been quite a while since I posted here. I actually let the deck in the binder for a while after Mental Misstep was printed, but yesterday I brought it to a 45 people tournament.

Here is what I played:

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Thoughtseize

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim Dul's Vault

4 Buried Alive
3 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
1 Exhume

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea

Side:

4 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
4 Pithing Needle

Round 1: BW deck

G1: I lose the die roll and keep a hand with a possible turn 2-3 combo, but with just a Lotus Petal as Black mana source. I Ponder twice, brainstorm once, but fail to find one of these cards (4 Underground Sea, 6 Fetches, 3 Lotus Petals, 4 Dark Rituals, 2 Swamps) and I lose in something like 8 turns.

G2: I start and keep a hand with 1 protection, 1 combo piece and 1 Lim Dul's Vault. He plays Duress 3 times and I am left with a hand of just acceleration. I fail to find any cantrip and lose.

0-2

Round 2: Maverick or something similar

G1: I lose the die roll and he starts with Noble Hierarch. I combo off a few turns later.

G2: He starts with Noble Hierarch again. I play ponder. I let him pass a Mystic even if I have a Force in hand. I do nothing in my turn. He the attacks with Batterskull after playing other 3 Noble Hierarchs (I let them pass because he still had cards in hand and I thought of a trick for a Needle or GY hate). I combo off in my turn since I was just waiting for some Mana.

2-0

Round 3: Merfolk

G1: He starts with Aether Vial. I Thoughtseize and take Standstill away. He stats to aggro, but I can combo off before his lethal turn.

G2: He starts with Pithing Needle. I didn't board in Bounce spells because I wasn't expecting Needle from Merfolk. I Misstep. He Dazes. I Thoughtseize and take something. In the next turns I play Buried Alive and reanimate Iona naming Blue. GG.

If we had to play for G3 I would have gone for the Snt SB..

Round 4: Canadian *****

G1: He counters something and attacks with Nimble Mongose + Lighting Bolt. I have a fast combo and win.

G2: He manages to slow me down with Fire/Ice on my lands and counters my relevant spells.

G3: I swap for the SnT SB because he doesn't have andswers for it. I play Ponder and a Thoughtseize. I then play Show and Tell for Emrakul: GG.

2-1

Round 5: Dream Halls

G1: I manage to combo faster than he does since he played Island Ponder and I went for Dark Ritual into Buried Alive. He counters my Reanimate, but I find Exhume ftw.

G2: He goes for SnT into Dream Halls and the Gingi-Taxis (or how it's spelled). I try to combo off more than once thanks to Pitching cards to play Lim Dul's Vault, but he has a Raw card advantage on me. I eventually combo off and when he's at 2 he plays Wipe Away on Ooze. I then lose. All three rounds where just great, sorry I can't write a detailed report on these 3 matches.

G3: We both play cantrips and counter some stuff. I have an Emrakul in hand, but he never goes for SnT. At some point he casts a Nuklavee and I try to Force, he Forces back and then gets it back from the GY. In my turn I Thoughtseize and take ot away. Since he has no counters I play Lim Dul in my turn. In his turn he ponders, shuffles and draws an unknown card. I have Shallow Grave in hand and draw Buried Alive after the Vault. I cast it and think on what to do. He's at 13 and I'm at 10. Since he could have drawn Wipe Away I Buried Emrakul, Iona and something else. I cast Shallow Grave on Emrakul before the trigger resolves and win.

2-1

Round 6: I'm 4th with 12 points, ID to enter top 8 at 13 points.

Top 8: Mono Black (The Gate Variant)

G1: He starts with Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Bob, New Negator. Ouch!! On his EoT before my turn and lethal damage on his next turn I cast Lim Dul. I'm something like at 3.. I go to 1 and see both pieces of the combo I need, but a Ponder. If I had a Brainstorm I would have won at one life! I had Mana because of Dark Rituals. I lose.

G2: I manage to combo fast.

G3: He starts with Dark Ritual, I Misstep. I play land and Ponder: shuffle. I draw Buried alive. He plays land, Thoughtseize for the missing piece I had just drawn and then plays Dark Ritual for Sadistic Sacrament. He takes Ooze, Iona and Devourer. I then play the Reanimate his guys plan and Counter the New Negator and Reanimate it with Aquameba in play. He plays Gatekeeper twice and then attacks. I reanimate again and he plays another Gatekeeper. I didn't have Thoughtseize or Force of Will, but had 2 Mental Misstep in hand. I lose.

1-2

I win something and arrive 7th out of 45.. Losing to MB in top 8 was embarassing, but he is a friend so I'm happy for him and he managed to win the torunament!

It tested Show and Tell when the deck was born and I always prefered the Doomsday SB, but with many Merfolk and Team America decks I think that SnT is better now.

I used Pithing Needle probably twice in the whole tournament and never used any bounce spell. I was thinking on Stifle instead of Needle, but friends suggested the opposite.

Anyways I'm happy with the deck and won't leave it in the closet any more!

:cool:

dahcmai

06-27-2011, 12:31 PM

Interesting variant played in the last Star City open.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39296

I kind of like that take on it. It gives you an out to heavy disruption. I think I might have to give this a shot.

Michael Keller

06-27-2011, 12:42 PM

I win something and arrive 7th out of 45.. Losing to MB in top 8 was embarassing, but he is a friend so I'm happy for him and he managed to win the torunament

I used to love hearing people bash The Gate when it could simply slice through so many varying strategies like Reanimator - using cards like Faerie Macabre and the like (I don't play it anymore, but that is besides the fact). Fact is discard is actually really bad for this deck and can cause a massive upswing in the opponent's favor with a serious clock on the table. The deck can go off relatively fast, but it is still a mid-range combo deck at heart that requires a relatively powerful setup to be effective. This isn't like traditional Reanimator where you have access to Entomb; in this particular deck it would be inherently bad. You need the key components to make Ooze lethal, which is why Buried Alive is optimal, and without it the deck becomes a very average Reanimator shell.

With Misstep prevalent, a trade of discard as a one for one isn't going to save you against something like Extirpate or Surgical Extraction (albeit linear), which believe it or not are seeing a some occasional play. Even so, graveyard hate is not as nonexistent as one might think. The deck has protection in the form of counter-magic and discard, but I think a more aggressive approach might be the way to go.

Take a look at a match ultimately culminating in Ken Adams' Top Eight (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22188_Round_6_Ken_Adams_vs_Nathaniel_Chafe.html) finish at Baltimore. He opted to go for a more thorough beat-down strategy and it appears as though it worked relatively well. His opponent was sitting on two Missteps at the end of the penultimate game, so it's not as if that is more relevant late-game like (Misstep) would be against the current configuration of a more strict combo approach.

Cthuloo

06-27-2011, 01:57 PM

@Pippo: first of all congrats on your result! Did you feel that the change on the reanimating package was enough to fight Misstep?

I also have a question:

I eventually combo off and when he's at 2 he plays Wipe Away on Ooze.

How is this possible? If you always retain priority, he shouldn't have a window for casting Wipe Away. Where am I wrong?

pippo84

06-27-2011, 07:14 PM

@Hollywood: I saw the deck that made top 8 at SCG, but even though it plays the same combo it's a totally different deck. I like his list, but I prefer this deck! ;)
Btw the Mono Black deck was playing Dark Ritual and Extirpate Main deck, so it's a bit different from The Gate.

@Cthuloo: Thanks! Changing the reanimation package may have helped against Misstep, and also adding my Missteps helped. Anyways sometimes I wished I had Spell Pierce instead of Misstep in my deck. The deck is consistent enought to fight through Misstep in my opinion.
The judge said that Split Second spells work because you can't retain prioity, but you can do everything in response to the opponent's play.

I will have to think about the SB a bit since I didn't use some of the cards and there may be better choices.. Btw adding 1 Exhume instead of Reanimate may help against Misstep and Reanimating a Iona, but if I had a third Shallow Grave I would have played it in Exhume's place.

Karhumies

07-04-2011, 02:45 PM

The judge said that Split Second spells work because you can't retain prioity, but you can do everything in response to the opponent's play.

We need to let two kinds of abilities resolve: firstly, the +1/+1 counter placing effect (P.Devourer), and secondly the damage ability (Triskelion). In order for anything to resolve, we need to pass the priority to the opponent. If the opponent responds with something relevant, we respond to that with a new ability activation -> eventually we win with the opponent's effect still on the stack. But if the opponent's effect has split second...that sucks.

Karhumies

07-04-2011, 03:16 PM

I think that Ken Adam's "Plan B" of MD Tarmogoyf and SB NO->Prog seems more potent than our plan B of SB SnT->Emrakul. Mainly because his plan B dodges discard effects and blue counter strategies, against which our plan A & plan B both fail.

+ BoP and N.Hierarch are more useful long-term accelerators than D.Ritual and L.Petal, especially with a NO SB
+ Able to turn the drawn dead combo parts into Fauna Shaman fodder
+ N.Ooze might be something useful when drawn even outside of the win-combo
+ Beatdown plan is inherently protected from graveyard hate
+ Buried Alive can be multi-used to fetch Vengevines/Bloodghasts and grow Tarmogoyf (Artifact)
+ Reanimate effects can target his own Goyfs, or any opposing creature for the beatdown win

- I am amazed at whether Ken is able to pull off any consistent Ooze wins when he is only running 4 reanimate effects and 0 tutors for the reanimate effect...
- Slower fundamental turn, assuming opponent is a goldfish (seldom true)

Also, I guess that he often sideboarded
-1 P.Devourer
-1 Triskelion
-2 Something
+4 D.Confidant

death

09-22-2011, 11:46 AM

September 2011 Update Bulletin: Functional Oracle Changes (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161d&page=2)

New Phyrexian Devourer wording

When Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Exile the top card of your library: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost.

The card has been unerrata'd so Necrotic Ooze no longer copies the "sacrifice if power is 7 or greater" part which was previously included along with the activated ability.

fucken' sweet.

lolosoon

09-22-2011, 12:05 PM

W00t ! I suppose we don't need that lone Aquamoeba anymore !?

Reanimator seems (imho) better altogether, and this deck will suffer the splash damages from a prepared meta.

Still, I concur : good news for this deck.

death

09-22-2011, 12:14 PM

Aquamoeba or Putrid Imp is still needed if you happen to draw Trike or Devourer, you need a way of putting them in the graveyard or back in the library without relying heavily on Brainstorm or Thoughtseize targetting yourself.

lolosoon

09-22-2011, 12:20 PM

Aquamoeba or Putrid Imp is still needed if you happen to draw Trike or Devourer
Damn, when I though of a "naturaly draw a piece of the combo" I went like "who cares ? An hardcast Ooze is good enough after a Buried Alive".

Jeez.... Thanks for pointing out what an idiot i am.

kusumoto

09-24-2011, 10:27 AM

So MM is gone and they fixed Devourer.

Time to sleeve up the most fun graveyard deck again. Killing on turn 1 without tendrils or a belcher is such fun.

death

09-24-2011, 03:12 PM

I have tried variations of this deck since its inception almost a year ago (builds with City of Traitors, Chrome Mox, Force of Will). In 7 days Mental Misstep will be gone from the format and with the errata on Phyrexian Devourer being lifted, I believe this deck is in a good position. With the meta shift towards fast aggro and combo, this deck needs to be at par with speed and should carry enough disruption to punish its rival combo decks.
Card disadvantage is a handicap so I intentionally omitted Force of Will. It's overrated in a non-blue shell. Even if you stop a god hand, they can still recover quickly. Pitching a draw/filter/tutor to Force of Will isn't a good trade off when Storm/Belcher has only <10% chance of beating you on the play. The disruption package should wreck them completely (barring a turn 0 win) combined with the tutor (for sorcery) package.

No Force Ooze
15 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Underground Sea

4 Creatures
1 Putrid Imp
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion

10 Combo
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume

10 Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

6 Tutors
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Personal Tutor

6 Accel
3 Lotus Petal
3 Dark Ritual

9 Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Duress

I tried to balance the pieces perfectly and decided to borrow tech from ANT/High Tide by playing 2 Preordain instead of 2 Chrome Mox since in testing I found it remarkable at fixing hands [to find lands, accel, combo piece or disruption] and setting up plays the following turn. It also improves recoverability against opponents who tries to interact. Sideboarding plans still vary depending on the meta: SnT + Emrakul, Doomsday + Emrakul, or SnT + Hive Mind. But here's what I'd bring come October 1, 2011.
I anticipate the meta will be ready with Stifles, Flusterstorms, Chalices of the Void, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist or Mindbreak Traps and this deck isn't dead to any of those.

1maarten1

10-09-2011, 03:51 PM

@Death

I am really liking the deck you listed. I also agree on dropping force. I have been trying out -2 duress +2 Spell Pierce but I think thats just a very small change.
Something else: What about Shallow Grave instead of Exhume?

Then onto the point I am having trouble with: The sideboard!

Could you maybe expend a little about the options you posten? (SnT+Emrakul, Doomsday, Hivemind) Because I can't really figure out what the benefits are about one another.

Testing has been good, and I am actually thinking about taking the deck to the GP, so some advice would be really nice!

death

10-09-2011, 05:03 PM

Exhume because Personal Tutor finds it. In G2, people will be bringing in GY hate against you and due to the popularity of Reanimator you'd really want a transformational sideboard that completely bypasses everything they bring in. On to the sideboard,

a. Doomsday
4 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul
9 x

I would probably skip this one for now because this is only good in a meta with more Counterbalances and less Wastelands/Stifles. Although you can run Pithing Needle, it is still fragile to countermagic with mana denial strategies.

b. SnT+Emrakul
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
7 x

Emrakul has his own issues: Knight of the Reliquary fetching Karakas, Diabolic Edict and to a lesser extent Phyrexian Metamorph or Phantasmal Image. If Show and Tell gets Extirpated or Surgically Extracted you have no other way of putting him into play.

c. SnT+Hive Mind
4 Show and Tell
4 Hive Mind
4 Pact of the Titan
3 Pact of Negation

This is a complete transformational sideboard. You side out 15 (10 combo/4 creatures/1 Daze) and bring in this 15. Result: A complete bypass with 11 disruption main and a deck that wins on the spot. Personal Tutor finds Show and Tell and Dark Rituals aren't completely dead as they help power out Hive Mind.

My 2 cents.

pandaman

10-11-2011, 05:19 PM

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6904&iddeck=50091

For discussion purposes. Preordain used instead of Ponder, which seems to be common in Europe.

ivanpei

10-17-2011, 03:43 AM

Ooze reanimator t8ed this major tournament.

http://manainfinito.com/articulos/top-8-decklists-eternal-weekend-2011-legacy-main-event

Just pointing out that its fow based. I agree that card disadvantage is horrendous in this deck. However cutting force IMO is not a good idea. Its just such a flexible anti hate card. I try to address the mid game issue with sensei's divining top. The card is insane. It really fixes your hand and gets you exactly what you need when you need it.

Edit: oops same link. Anyway in legacy, ponder-> preordain because it sees another card. You can then plan your fetches to shuffle away the chaff. In modern/standard, fetches are used mainly to fix mana.

Using fetches to shuffle contends with saving life (eot tapped shocks or shuffle effect for ponder). We play much more fetches in legacy and can crack our fetches whenever so ponders are much better in this format. However if stifles become popular again, preordain + fewer fetches may be the right choice.

pippo84

11-16-2011, 01:22 PM

Nobody is playing this deck anymore?

I beleive it's still a good contender.

If someone's interested I will post my updated list here and a breif report from GP Amsterdam.. :laugh:

tsabo_tavoc

11-16-2011, 01:25 PM

Nobody is playing this deck anymore?

I beleive it's still a good contender.

If someone's interested I will post my updated list here and a breif report from GP Amsterdam.. :laugh:

Cool, I would love to read about this deck after the MM era:smile:

Esper3k

11-16-2011, 01:26 PM

Same here - I just got a Devourer signed by Mark Tedin! :)

jamis

11-16-2011, 11:45 PM

Pippo: Yes please

And yes, still playing the deck. I just haven't been to any events lately, so nothing too exciting to report

P-E

11-17-2011, 06:32 AM

go pippo waiting to hear that report ^^

pippo84

11-21-2011, 05:44 AM

go pippo waiting to hear that report ^^

Ok, since many of you looked interested from my report here it is!

I will skip all the part of visiting Amsterdam, having fun etc because it would become really long!

My list:

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim – Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 City of Traitors
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire

Side:

4 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
3 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Laboratory Maniac

Round 1: Canadian *****

G1: He starts. I Thoughtseize him and combo off on my turn 2
G2: He has some early Delver + Goyf that I can't race
G3: I thoughtseize him and discard a Goyf. I need to find a Buried Alive since he has no counters. I have plenty of Reanimates and get the Goyf. It's only a ¾ since I can't find a sorcery and he gets down a Delver. He is winning the race because of my Reanimate + Thoughtseize! I brainstorm, fetch and brainstorm again. No sorceries.. I find an echoing truth when I'm at 6. He forces.I try another. He forces again. I lose..

Round 2: Team America

G1: He starts. I win easily.
G2: He beats me with a Tombstalker really fast.
G3: I can't find a missing combo piece and die slowly.

Nice way to start a GP: 0-2

Round 3:Mono Blue Control

G1: He starts. I just combo in his face with protection.
G2: Really easy game won after playing a Thoughtseize and getting his counter.

Finally I have my first win. I'm motivated now!!

Round 4: Reanimator

G1: He start with Careful Study discarding Jin-Gitaxias. I reanimate it and win.
G2: I thoughtseize him and discard Gin-Jitaxias again since he has no reanimate spells. He entombs something and I reanimate Jin. He tries something in his turn,but I have a hand full of spells. In my turn I go for Buried alive + Shallow Grave on Ooze and it's GG.

This deck is really strong against Reanimator and combo decks! People say it was full of combo, but I didn't play against one!!

Round 5: Burn

G1: I win the first die roll of the tournament so I start. I kept a hand with double Thoughtseize and start with one of course. Ouch! I'm low on life really soon, but I combo off and win at 5 life.
G2: I play dark Ritual on my second turn to cast Ooze. On my next turn I misplay not playing a Petal to cast Buried Alive and I lose.
G3: Now he misplays not shooting at me in response to a Reanimate and he looses. Really nice opponent though.

No one can stop me! I beleive I can go to day 2 since I'm really motivated and drinking a red bull each turn!

Round 6: Team America

G1: He starts with some fetches and cracks 2, so I go for Lim Dul and find the combo piece. Win the next turn.
G2: Don't remember anything but won easily.

Round 7: Canadian *****

G1: He starts with land go. I start with Thoughtseize. I see 3 Goyfs, 1 Mongoose, 1 Bolt, 1 land. I discard Goyf and win next turn.
G2: I combo off on my second turn again. He is upset about it.

I got revenge from my losses!!

Round 8: Cephalid Breakfast
G1: He starts and has some lands in play (Tundra, Underground Sea and Tropical I think) and an Aether Vial when I thoughtseize. I see: Lord of Extinction, Daze, Cabal Therapy. What deck is it???
I don't care and win.
G2: He starts and comboes off 1 turn before me. I understand his deck and sideboard correctly.
G3: I start and Thoughtseize him. He has a green tutor, 2 combo pieces and 2 flooded strands. I take the tutor. He plays fetch pass. I play Pithing needle. He asks on what and I play it on the fetch since he had only those 2 lands. He wants to fetch in response, but he can't because he already asked on what so my spell entered. (A judge was sitting next to us because he asked the rulings for all my cards. I can understand Buried Alive and Shallow Grave, but not Thoughtseize and Reanimate).
In the same turn I play my second Needle on Nomad and win 2 turns after.

I just have to win this to play Day 2!!

Round 9: UW Control

G1: He starts with Underground Sea, go. I look at my seven. 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Swamp, 1 Dark Ritual, 1 Buried Alive, 1 Reanimate, 1 Lotus Petal. I start with Thoughtseize since he plays blue.
I see: 1 Tundra, 2 Snapcaster, 2 Force, 1 Counterspell.
I lose because he won the die roll.. ….
G2: My deck just fails to do anything with me mulling to 3.

I started 0-2, then was at 6-2 and finished 6-3.

… Could have gone better..

I'm happy with the deck after all. Unfortunately I just got blue decks (except for 1 Burn) when the GP had many Combo players (and as I said before this deck wrecks combo) and of course had some non U players!

Sorry if it isn't detailed, but some time passed and I'm short of time atm..

MagicMan84

11-23-2011, 07:25 PM

An tournament report from GP amsterdam and an 50 man tourney in sweden.

Decklist:
CREATURES (4)
1 Aquamoeba
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
SORCERIES (18)
1 Personal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Exhume
4 Buried Alive
4 Thoughtseize
4 Reanimate
INSTANTS (19)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Shallow Grave
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lim-Dul’s Vault
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Lotus Petal
LANDS (16)
2 Underground Sea
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
SIDEBOARD
1 Echoing Truth
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Leyline of the Void

GP amsterdam:
Round 1 vs UW counterbalance from nederlands
Game 1:
i play some cantrips in the first turns and an Thoughtseize to take his counterspell in hand and win on turn 4.
1-0
Game 2:
he had me dead on board next turn and was about to scoop, when he end off my turn plays an enlightened tutor and get an skullclamp.
I call a judge and he recieved an game loss for illegal deck
2-0

Round 2 vs No Zoo from spain
Game 1
I win on turn 4 is all i remember.
1-0
Game 2
I forgett to put out the leyline in hand from starthand, could have won on turn 3 with daze backup if i had done that, now i won on turn 5 or 6 insted with Leyline Helm combo
2-0

Round 3 vs Esper OrbStifleNaut from Netherlands
Game 1
I play Thoughtseize om turn 1 and he has nothing in hand, i win on turn 2 with FoW backup if he has drawn anything.
1-0

Game 2
this is a really hard game for me. i win on 1 life with Leyline Helm combo.
2-0

Round 4 vs RWU OrbStifleNaught from Russia
Game 1
Win on turn 1 with no backup.
1-0

Game 2
starts with leýline in play and 2x dark ritual and helm in hand. he had spell pierce, for this and could not find a new 1 in three turns before i was dead to naught.
1-1

Game 3
this is an insane game he resolves 3 ancestral vison I Thoughtseize him 3 times and he has nothing to stop my combo but I can only play 1 part a turn, resolve leyline first. his turn he draw attacks pass. I play helm he Force my helm (Topdeck 1).
he draws attack . me topdecks helm, he stifle (topdeck 2) the trigger. he draw attack pass.
try to go of in my turn, he stifle the trigger again (topdeck 3).
me dead on his next turn. :-(

1-2

Round 5 vs BUG from spain

game 1
win on turn 4.
dont remember more.
1-0

game 2
on turn 2 I Play SnT into emrakul with daze backup to fow, he playes a goyf on his turn 2.
2-0

Round 6 vs Bant from France.
game 1
i play some cantrips in the first turn and win on turn 5,
1-0

game 2
this is my only big misstake in the tourney.
I play SnT into emrakul on turn 2 it resolves. he played brainstorm on his first turn and put an extra land into play from Snt on his 2nd turn he plays some thing and with his last land he plays brainstorm again (I have FoW and daze in hand and says its ok) he finds karakas as his 3rd Card bounce my emrakul.
then i starts assemble Leyline helm Combo, and he draws runner runner qasali pridemage to stop this play and beats me with Vendilion Clique.
1-1

Game 3
he has a fast start and i can´t find the combo pieces
1-2

Round 7 vs Reanimate from Germany
game 1
I Thoughtseize and takes his reanimate spells and counter his second.
and win on turn 5.
1-0

Game 2
I counter his reanimate spell on Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur he forces back and I daze, on the next turn I reanimates his Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. he try to bounce him but i have new counters, next turn i resolve an leyline and he Scoops.
2-0

Round 8 vs RUG snapcaster controll, a friend from Sweden
Game 1
Win on turn 5 with Fow Backup

Game 2
He gets no Preasure on me and I Drop lands everyturn until turn 4 and plays Thoughtseize and see that he only has spellpierce left as counterspell and play around it to resolve an SnT into Emrakul and wins from there.

Round 9 vs Esper controll with snapcaster and jace and mystic, from netherlands
Game 1
I play some cantrips in the 2 first turns and win on turn 3 with FoW Backup.
1-0

Game 2
I take my first 2 Mulligans for the tournament.
he starts with Thoughtseize on turn 1. I play a land.
he plays Thoughtseize on me again. I play a land.
He plays snapcaster into Thoughtseize on turn 3 (i have no card left in hand). I draw something irrelevant.
his turn 4 he Plays Jace and from there he has counterspells for all my things.
1-1

Game 3
exactly as game 2 I mulligan 2 times, and he has the same plays as game 2 and i Die and not make day 2. :-(

____________________

Sideevents from Amsterdam 32 man single elimination.

round 1 vs Mono black Pox
Game 1
I win on turn 3 and he can't do anything.
1-0

Game 2
I start with leyline in play.he takes away my Helm the turn before I can go off. try to find a new for 7 turns but fails.
1-1

Game 3
I starts with leyline in Play and wins on turn 2 with helm leyline combo.
2-1

Round 2 vs Dredge from Germany.
Game 1
I mulligan 1 time. he has an fast start and I cant find anything to combo off. he plays a cabal theraphy and I scoop so he didn´t know what i played.
0-1

Game 2
Starts with Leyline in play and counter all his nature´s claims and combo off on turn 5 with leyline helm Combo.
1-1

Game 3
Starts with Leyline in play and counter all his nature´s claims and combo off on turn 5 with leyline helm Combo.
2-1

Round 3 vs Reanimate from Austria
Game 1
We Thoughtseize each other and counter each reanimate spell from each other. then he has 1 i can´t take care off and he wins.
0-1

Game 2
I take 1 mulligan. and keep an average hand and draws awfull.
0-2

Total from Amsterdam I went 8-5.

____________________________

50 man tourney in Sweden.

Round 1 vs B/W dead Guy
game 1
I mulligan to 6 cards. I am pretty sure on wwhat he is playing.
I keep a han off 1x personal tutor 2x Dark Ritual 2x Reanimate 1x Bloodstained Mire.
he has mulligan to 6 cards and begins.
he plays land and says go.
I play fetch and go get Underground Sea and play personal and hope he don´t have waste or discard for a turn 2 kill. he has waste and I can´t find a new land for 6 turns and I die.
0-1

game 2
i mulligan to 5 cards with 1 land hand with 2 cantrips. cant find any combo pieces or lands for 6 turns and i die.
0-2

Round 2 vs a R/B demigood bloodghast reanimate build.
game 1
I win on turn 4 he has no disruption.
1-0

game 2
we both starts with leyline in play, he has no disruption and I play cantrips and finds helm and wins on turn 5.
2-0

Round 3 vs the swede from amsterdam this time he plays Bant controll.
Game 1
I win on turn 1 with fow Backup
1-0

Game 2
This one I loose too his 2x FoW and Vendiolion Clique
1-1

Game 3
I start with Leyline in play. I play Thoughtseize on him and see that he has no counterspells on hand and combo off on turn 1 with leyline helm combo.

Round 4 vs Ant
Game 1
I win on Turn 3 he play some cantrips before i win.
1-0

Game 2
he mulligans to 5 cards. I play SnT into emrakul on turn 2 and win from there.
2-0

Round 5 vs 43 Lands
Game 1
I win on turn 4 after resolving an Lim-Dûls vault for the last Piece to combo of.
1-0

Game 2
I SnT into emrakul on turn 3. he has 2 cards in hand an 1 is tolaria west he has one island of some kind in play the only thing the second card on his hand or the card he draws must not be a blue land so he can fetch karakas but it is another Tolaria west and he wins with confidant beats.
1-1

Game 3
I starts with Leyline in play and combo off on turn 5 he can´t do anything he hadn´t boarded in his krosan grips only graveyard hate and confidants.
2-1

Round 6 vs No Bant
We draw and are in top 8

Quarterfinal vs Rug BoltCaster = alot of burn and snapcaster goyf and counters
game 1
I Thoughtseize away all his counterspells and combo off on turn 5.
1-0

game 2
I starts with leyline in play. (pretty good against Goyf and snapcaster)
he has a slow start and I Thoughtseize away his only counters and win with leyline helm combo. his draws was awfull.
2-0

Semifinal vs Burn
game 1
he has a fast start and I stumbles on 1 land even if he hits me 6x with a goblin guide.
:-(
0-1

Game 2
I starts with leyline in play. and play some cantrips on the first turns, I win with leyline helm combo when still at 14 life.
1-1

Game 3
I keep a hand off 3x Dark ritual 1xSwamp 1x Lotus Petal 1x Ponder and 1x leyline of the void.
starts with leyline in play. he plays Ligthning bolt to my head, and i joke that that is one of the better starts from his deck, then i TOP DECK an Helm of Obedience on my first turn and win, and says this is my best 1st turn. he extends his hand and smiles.
2-1

Final vs Canadian threshold RUG
Game 1
He Mulligans to 5 cards. he has no action. I win on turn 5 with daze Backup to his daze.
1-0

game 2
I make him tap out to stifle my fetch on turn 3 so he can´t play his spell pierce that he showed to his delver of secrets on turn 2 and I resolves a dark ritual and play SnT With 1 black mana in the pool to play around daze. It resolves and i get an Emrakul and he dies the next turn.
2-0

I win the tounament. :-)

ivanpei

11-24-2011, 02:50 AM

MagicMan84

11-24-2011, 04:05 AM

Congrats! I find that reanimator donating Jins quite hilarious :). No new goodies for the deck at the moment. How were the forces? Would you have preferred force or additional discard. They seem to have been awesome. 3 seems a weird number though.

thank you. They were fantastic. I think you don´t have so much blue cards to suppart 4 Fow, even with 3 FoW I don´t always have a blue card to discard. But I wanted more counterspells so I added Daze to the mix and It has been perfect for me.

tsabo_tavoc

12-01-2011, 09:59 AM

Congratulations, MagicMan! The three tournaments are all very impressive. Have you piloted the deck in other tournaments than the three since Amsterdam? (not meant to be picky, but if you ended this well in all tournaments, it really speaks for the strength of the list.) Also, thanks a lot for the detailed reports.

I really appreciate your record on the combo turns, and based on that, I did the simple statistics. In the 21 matches, you won 16 game 1, lost 4 times, and 1 was an intentional draw. In all 16 gane 1 wins, you comboed out
turn 1 : 2 times
turn 2 : 1
turn 3 : 3
turn 4 : 5
turn 5 : 5

Over half of the times (62%), the combo was at or after turn 4. Therefore, I wonder if the 8 accelerants (4 Petal and 4 Ritual) are too many. Especially Petals, since Lands fill the same role past turn 3. Do you have a similar feel, and if yes, which accelerant would you cut first? I am tempted to put in more cantrips, a second tutor and a few lands (maybe Sol lands) in the accelerant slots.

Another question is about LDV, how do you like them, have you ever used it to find two combo pieces? I would prefer Intuition as it does not suffer from card disadvantage, or costs any life.

It is amazing how Daze is very relevant, even on turn 5 to protect your combo. It seems that more often than not, you have enough counters to grind out a blue opponent. Do you consider Force of Will decks favourable matchups? How about Tempo decks with Stifle? Would you want to play more disruptions?

Again, mad props to your successful performance. I look forward to more insights from you.

MagicMan84

12-20-2011, 09:26 AM

I have played 4 Tournaments since The 3 I have made an report from.
The results have been. win in an 20 man tourney with top 4 lost 1 match in the mirror :tongue: but i got my revenge in the final (it was a friend we had 76 card mirror, it was 1 of the worst experince ever, game 2 and 3 both starts with leyline in play and can´t play SnT if opponent has helm and you only emrakul(only 1 bounce after Sideboard to his leyline if you kept the ooze combo in the deck) the games ended on turn 35 or something everytime :cry: , we played 3 times in all these tournaments i won 2 and lost 1)

I went 2-2 in 2 tourneys with 16 people

and came 3 rd place in an 10 man tourney with single elimination. it was the elimination finals from the people who had got the most points from the 3 tourneys.

the times when i combo off later than turn 3 is because i want some backup or the the opponent stops me some how, or the cantrips fails to find the combo so fast as I want.

Petal and Ritual is pretty necessary to consistently race aggro. You can't always rely on always seeing Dark Ritual, and playing a turn four combo against Zoo without setting up any board presence aside from land, will lose you the game nearly every time. You really do need that extra speed.

LDV is awsome becase you can find a pile of 3 card you need and brainstorm for them and send 2 cards you don´t need to win from that position. intuition is to slow and to expansive in mana for my playstile.

I like playing against blue decks because they often don´t have a fast clock on you and you have alot of dissruption. decks with stifle is anoying some times but you can get there if you play good.

I will try to test some new sideboardplans to see if they are better, because in my local area everyone know what I play and how I sideboard in games. hope to see some off yours list in the future.

have a good holliday and a happy new year.

Karhumies

12-25-2011, 11:25 PM

Congratulations to pippo and MagicMan for some really nice tournament finishes! :)

Ooze reanimator t8ed this major tournament.

http://manainfinito.com/articulos/top-8-decklists-eternal-weekend-2011-legacy-main-event

Triskelavus has to be a mistake. Otherwise, the combo would require mana equal to opponent's life total to work.

Over half of the times (62%), the combo was at or after turn 4 G1.

Our G1 goldfish speed needs to be almost 100% T3 to battle aggro god-hands. Any slower in tournament conditions means the opponent was not a goldfish: either we are hit with disruption, or we want (and can afford) an extra mana to go around a potential single Daze/SP.

In the 21 matches, you won 16 game 1, lost 4 times, and 1 was an intentional draw.

I will try to test some new sideboardplans to see if they are better...

We rank amongst the best G1 win % - pretty much alongside Dredge and Belcher. Our dilemma is how to SB: go around the GY hate with a slower alternative strategy / fight the GY hate with a slightly slower version of main strategy / just hope they do not draw into the GY hate in time?

If you lose with alternative strategy G2, get to see opponent's GY hate and decide it is not THAT fast , you can even SB back into the main strategy for G3 when we get to start.

Karhumies

12-26-2011, 09:58 AM

Laboratory Maniac (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230788) - can this guy be utilized in a post-SB Doomsday pile, either in addition to or instead of Emrakul? He could potentially circumvent Wasteland or Stifle hitting Shelldock Isle.

On a related note, see thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22130-Deck-U-x-Thought-Lash)

Karhumies

12-26-2011, 10:47 AM

After giving some thought to the matter, I think that Thought Lash + Laboratory Maniac may well be a viable alternative in G2 to Leyline of the Void + Helm of Awakening combo. Here's a brief comparison:
+++ Thought Lash buys us extra time for the combo by damage prevention
+++ Not hosed by opposing library Eldrazi
++ Not hosed by opposing Leyline of Sanctity
++ if O is running Stifle -> buys them 1 extra turn against Helm
+ ups blue card count for FoW
+ if O is running instant destroy Enchantment effects -> Thought Lash can respond; if Leyline destroyed while Helm effect on stack that is no good
+ Extra Maniacs can emergency block
+ Immunity to artifact hate
+/- Lower mana cost if Leyline not in opening hand; otherwise greater
+/- if O sided out targeted removal after G1 (if he didn't, we are in deep trouble ---)
+/- if O brought in Pithing Needle to name Ooze -> can potentially name Helm instead after seeing Leyline or Thought Lash. Although Thought Lash may look like a stall instead of win con.
- Iona on blue wrecks us
- loss of our own GY hate (especially vs. Dredge)
-- O Humility shuts down Maniac

I might go as far as to say that Thought-Maniac is strictly better than Helm-Line.

September 2011 Update Bulletin: Functional Oracle Changes (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161d&page=2)

New Phyrexian Devourer wording

When Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Exile the top card of your library: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost.

The card has been unerrata'd so Necrotic Ooze no longer copies the "sacrifice if power is 7 or greater" part which was previously included along with the activated ability.

fucken' sweet.

IMO, the best part about the rules change is that while in the past Trickbind killed Necrotic Ooze (e.g. FoW removed through Devourer effect on the stack -> respond with Trickbind), now it only buys the opponent time until the next upkeep.