[Deck] Naya Midrange * Big Zoo / Naya Horizons *

[troopatroop]

http://i52.tinypic.com/ogx6xk.jpghttp://i51.tinypic.com/2ufd92q.jpghttp://i56.tinypic.com/r05iir.jpg

By request, I'm writing a small primer on Naya Midrange due to confusion in the Zoo thread. There are some fundamental differences in strategy that separate the Zoo deck from the Big Zoo deck, which makes it impossible to talk about this deck in the Zoo thread in DTB. I'd first like to showcase a few decklists. These lists made top8 at Japan's legacy championships with 174 players in the mix, and one of them won it.

http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/index_e.html

1st Place

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt

7th Place

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Path to Exile
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm

So obviously, when you see these Zoo lists, a few things stick out from the start (aside from splashing blue for MM, wows)

- Noble Hierarch : Hey wait, I thought this was a Bant creature? What's it doing in Zoo?

- 4x Knight of the Reliquary : Isn't Zoo only supposed to play 2 of these? Don't they cost too much to play more?

- Wasteland : If Zoo is color hungry enough already, how am I supposed to fit in Wasteland?

- Elspeth, Knight-Errant : Seems good... but 4cc?!?!

Traditionally, Zoo is always thought of as a fast aggro deck. This is especially true for decks playing Steppe Lynx and Kird Ape/Loam Lion. While these cards put on some pressure early, I was often disatisfied with drawing them after the first few turns. I also played a great deal with Steppe Lynx, and grew to despise the hoping and praying for Land off the top. Yes these guys hit for quick damage against combo, or hold the line well against Goblins and Merfolk, but think about where Zoo is positioned in the Metagame. It already does well against Merfolk and Goblins and loses to fast combo with Kird Ape/Loam Lion all the same, although Steppe Lynx does give you more of a chance. What Zoo really wants to have strength against is Control and Zoo, while maintaining great numbers against Merfolk and Goblins. Wild Nacatl is also much stronger than either of those 1 drops, and has the early game situation under control. Not playing these 1 drops (or Fireblast/Jitte/Helix) gives you more room for different cards, and this deck puts on some weight.

Big Zoo

4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


The differences of Big Zoo to Zoo * More cards at 3 and 4cc * Noble Hierarch/Wasteland subtheme *Emphasis on winning the Mid-Lategame

Noble Hierarch: He isn't much of a threat on his own, but he has been simply amazing in practice for me. He gets you to 3 and 4 mana much faster, which really helps in casting our bigger guys. When coupled with Wasteland, you're going ahead in mana while the opponent goes down. This makes our threats even harder to deal with for our opponents, gives you "tempo" to attack, and generally allows us to dictate the game. Exalted also matters alot as we're often swinging with a single big creature. Some people see this as only a Bant creature, but that is shortsighted! I play 3x because I can still open them frequently, but see them less in multiples. Golden against mana denial and counts as a mana source. Integral to the deck, and often MVP.

Knight of the Reliquary: The primary winner of games, this deck can support 4x because it plays Hierarch. You really want to see this guy against Control and Aggro/Control decks, because you're going to get to 3 mana eventually. She is the best threat you could ask for, and matches up with the other monsters of the format nicely.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant: Elspeth is not made possible SOLELY by Noble Hierarch, but it's really close. Traditional Zoo decks cannot sucessfully play Elspeth because she costs way too much. Noble Hierarch on turns 1 or 2 really strengthens Elspeth, because it's effectively one extra turn to make or jump a dude. That can be game changing, and don't forget about Exalted. Those tokens are swinging for 2-5 damage after exalted and a jump, and we play Defense as well as any other deck. I've fallen in love with Elspeth for this deck, both the 1/1 and +3/+3 flying are great.

Wasteland: This card is played in every Legacy deck that can support it, and for good reason. This particular deck is one that really loves its Wastelands. They feed Knight or Lavamancer. They can screw the opponent on an important color of mana, manascrew them completely, or nuke an important nonbasic. They give you an extra attack when you have creatures in play, and add value to Noble Hierarch.

These cards add some very different lines of play onto the already stellar early game of Zoo.

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Wasteland, Pridemage/Tarmogoyf/Sylvan Library

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Pridemage/Goyf/Library, Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/STP

Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Nacatl, Pridemage/Goyf/Sylvan Library

Turn 1 Nacatl, Turn 2 Hierarch, Wasteland, Attack for 3

Turn 1 Nacatl, Turn 2 Hierarch, Bolt/Chain/STP, Attack for 4


The rest of the cards are also in the Zoo deck, and should need little explaination.

Wild Nacatl: Should need no introduction. She is the #1 reason to play this color scheme. I think this is one of the best creatures in the format, and our main weapon in the early game. Very good at capitalizing on any tempo you might gain with Hierarch and Wasteland, and often swings in for 4 with our 7 exalted creatures. An extremely strong creature.

Qasali Pridemage: Amazing utility creature! Spectacular against Control decks. Has been performing for Zoo for a long time. Not much else needs to be said here, Pridemage is good.

Tarmogoyf: The best green creature, and an amazing wall. 4x, Enough said.

Sylvan Library: The closes thing to Brainstorm in Green! :D I love this card, it smooths your draws, and draws cards when your life total is safe

4x Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Path to Exile : 1cc removal. Ensures that you'll never pay more to get rid of a creature than someone paid to play it. These cards give you the edge against Merfolk and Goblins, and generally define the mirror. We play the full 12

The package of 1cc/2cc creatures and removal is there just to survive the early game and put on pressure. Once you get through that, you should have done enough damage to close it out with some fat. That is the decks gameplan, and it does it extremely effectively. Note that this is a large difference between this deck and traditional Zoo. We share a plethora of cards with that deck, but our gameplan is much different. They might play 2 Knights, and that's it. This is because they play more aggressive 1drops (Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, and Loam Lion), and without Noble Hierarch playing 3cc cards is unwise for Zoo.

It is my opinion however, that Knight of the Reliquary, and Elspeth are important enough to justify Noble Hierarch's inclusion. Forget about all his applications with Wasteland if youd like, or Casting multiple things on turns 2-3, and making hands easier to keep (which are all great). Noble Hierarch is basically just Birds of Paradise with Exalted, but allowing these threats to come into play a turn earlier is good enough on it's own. The faster you can play these cards, the better they become, and they're already massive in their own right. Massive things win the Counterbalance and Zoo matchup, and also do work against Goblins/Merfolk. This is the Big Zoo philosophy, trying to eat the widest margin of the metagame that it can. What people fail to realize is that this deck is not worlds slower than traditional Zoo. You still get the best creature at 1cc and all the other Zoo weapons at your disposal, but also solidify your chances in the Late game. I like this plan, feel free to try it out! :D

*Matchups and Sideboarding* (will get to this soon)

So in playing Big Zoo, I've also had a fair bit of time to critique the deck myself. There are a few things I grew to dislike

- Grim Lavamancer + Knight of the Reliquary

- Path to Exile + Wasteland

It became clear that these two disynergies existed, but there was nothing I could really do about it. Grim Lavamancer was stellar against creatures and really solidified my Goblins and Merfolk matchup. Path was integral to winning damage races, and STP doesn't play well with Grim Lavamancer as far as "reach" in concerned. I began to play without Grim Lavamancer in the deck, with Terravore in it's place, and with STP over Path. This is greedy against the creature decks, taking out the Wizard for a 3cc guy, but I found that my deck only got better against Control decks, and that I still had all the tools I needed to dominate the aggro decks. My LD plan got stronger without Path, and I was never afraid of not being able to finish the game after giving them Life. Terravore + Knight of the Reliquary works for New Horizons, but what about Naya?

This is a Zoo/New Horizons hybrid, inspired by the Noble Hierarch driven Big Zoo deck. The goal of the deck is to get ahead in mana, remove the blockers in your way, and play bombs to finish the game. This is the list I've been testing.

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy


The deck is very similar to Big Zoo, but it plays 6 big monsters instead of 4. Terravore is straight out of the New Horizons playbook, but it feeds off the environment so nicely right now. Trample is important, because you're getting another form of reach ( in exchange for Grim Lavamancer). Without Lavamancer eating lands out of the graveyard, you never have to worry about shrinking your fat, and STP can safely replace Path. You might scoff at the lack of Grim Lavamancer, but I still think the aggro matchup is favorable with our creatures and removal. If these are already positive matchups, shouldn't we look to beat up on Control and Aggro/Control even harder?

I'm interested mostly on what people think of the Big Zoo deck in general. Hierarch is only a small bit of innovation, but it significantly alters the deck's gameplan, enough to warrant a seperate thread of discussion. I've been seeing more Hierarch in winning Zoo lists as of late, so I'm anxious to see what people think of the deck. Is this a natural progression for Zoo in post Mystical Tutor Legacy?

[Antonius]

has loam ever been a consideration for these sort of decks?

[Pinder]

Loam seems really really slow, and doesn't really do anything for the deck's gameplan other than recur Wasteland. It does make Knight and Terravore bigger, but they get planty big enough without it so it's basically just win more.

I've always thought that non-Nacatl one drops just weren't as impressive. Nice primer, and the deck looks solid. Because Heirarch is already in there, do you think that splashing blue like those Japanese players did is worth it at all?

[troopatroop]

Loam seems really really slow, and doesn't really do anything for the deck's gameplan other than recur Wasteland. It does make Knight and Terravore bigger, but they get planty big enough without it so it's basically just win more.

I've always thought that non-Nacatl one drops just weren't as impressive. Nice primer, and the deck looks solid. Because Heirarch is already in there, do you think that splashing blue like those Japanese players did is worth it at all?

I've done well with it, Meddling Mage is very good right now. What ruined it for me was the blue duals, too inconsistent. It's definitely worth it if you expect alot of combo, and he's also good in control matchups. It's good against Vengevine Survival too, but so is Pithing Needle. In the end I favored the better manabase. It helps alot against Merfolk and Goblins.

[Grillo]

As I'm one of the supporters of the Big Zoo deck I'll share my list with you all:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37532
The sideboard is not correct though. I played 2 Pyroblasts instead of the 2 Fireblasts.

Here is the list if you don't want to go to deckcheck:

creature [22]
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

instant [10]
4 Lightning Helix
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

enchantment [2]
2 Sylvan Library

land [22]
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

planeswalker [4]
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

60 cards

Sideboard:
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

15 cards


I know this is not the now "typical" Big Zoo list. But it adds diversity to the topic.

I'm not playing this deck because I think it's better that the regular Zoo. In fact I think many Naya color variants are really valid decks and I've played quite a few. But because it's consistent, fun and powerful and it suits my style of play.

What things I think are good about Big Zoo:
- More resilient to mass removal.
- It lets you actually develop a game (going into mid-game).
- Better topdecks.

Things I miss from regular Zoo:
- Knowing for sure that I'm the aggro deck (except maybe against Goblins).
- Stealing games because I drew a God hand.

[keys]

With the Big Zoo/New Horizons hybrid, you're trading a conflict between Grim Lavamancer and Knight for a conflict between Swords to Plowshares and burn. I don't see how that is any better.

IMO, Wasteland isn't a reason to cut Path to Exile. Wasteland is useful against utility lands, but I'm not convinced mana denial is a viable plan for Zoo. There's no way to capitalize on your opponent's mana screw apart from the natural "tempo" gained. Zoo doesn't play Daze, Spell Pierce, Chalice of the Void, or Trinisphere.

Moreover, Swords to Plowshares just doesn't make sense in an aggro deck. (a) It restricts your ability to finish the game with burn. (b) StP is better in control decks that need an efficient way to remove every kind of threat. Zoo already has burn to take care of smaller creatures. That leaves fat like Knight/Goyf/Terravore, Tombstalker, Dreadnaught. 1 basic land is much easier to handle than the 5-12 life StP would give your opponent.

[troopatroop]

But that is much smaller of a conflict, we don't need our burn spells to lower their life total. There are only 8 burn spells, and they're meant for creatures. We get Knight of the Reliquary/Terravore and Elspeth for reach cards. It really hasn't been hard finishing the game for me, and burn is rarely in my hand at that point regardless. STP is a much better card than Path, and Noble Hierarch is stellar with Wasteland. Wasteland is just so powerful, I really can't think of any reason not to play it, and especially with Noble Hierarch in the deck already. What is the basic mountain for?

[nedleeds]

How about Armageddon in this type of deck. I've had success with mid-size naya builds and used Armageddon instead of 4 walkers (running only 2 Elspeth, and 2 Armageddon). This allows you to move Wasteland out (as much tempo as LD). I was also running Figures and not Nactyls.

[ivanpei]

I'd actually play armageddon in the board if I had the space. However, you'd want armageddon against control decks (which are typically blue), and in that case, choke > armageddon as its one sided and costs 1 mana less. Armageddon MD is ok, but you are not always ahead. Against Bant Aggro, you are usually the one on the backwards board position due to their warmonk, tarmogoyfs and KOTRs. Wastelands are good in this deck. I played them and love them. 3 IMO is the right number with 20 coloured lands. We rarely mana screw people with wasteland but putting opponents a turn back while your kitties/goyf beat face is reason enough to run it.

[GGoober]

Looks like a solid evolution of Zoo. Although it seems to be a bastard child of New Horizon (I advocate Noble Hierarch builds of New Horizons not running Terravore) and Zoo mixed together. Not sure if it will end up being truly successful since it can't focus on the mana denial as New Horizons does, nor can it kill as fast and put opponents on a risky life that affect gameplay like Zoo does

However, I do agree there's reach, but I think since it's a new deck, there's a lot of room to further evolve.

KotR.dec have been pretty popular these days, don't forget that the maindeck/SB can accomodate a valuable Karakas against Emrakul/Kira (bounce fizzle then bolt Kira, not that Merfolks is a bad matchup for Zoo lol) decks.

[nedleeds]

I'd actually play armageddon in the board if I had the space. However, you'd want armageddon against control decks (which are typically blue), and in that case, choke > armageddon as its one sided and costs 1 mana less. Armageddon MD is ok, but you are not always ahead. Against Bant Aggro, you are usually the one on the backwards board position due to their warmonk, tarmogoyfs and KOTRs. Wastelands are good in this deck. I played them and love them. 3 IMO is the right number with 20 coloured lands. We rarely mana screw people with wasteland but putting opponents a turn back while your kitties/goyf beat face is reason enough to run it.

I can see that all being valid. I'm not sold on Choke though, Grip and Predator are rampant where I am. I suppose Boil could be a board option. I think if you commit to running 2 Sylvans and 4 Hierarchs the allure of Armageddon is there even in a neutral board position.

I suppose there are times Ajani looks better, and times where Armageddon is GG.

[Grillo]

I'm going to a tourney this saturday and I'm expecting to face at least a couple of Vengevine-Survival decks.
At the moment I'm only packing "traditional" graveyard hate in my sideboard (crypt + faerie macabre) and some Krosan Grips.

Does anyone have some experience playing against Vengevine-Survival?
Will graveyard hate be enough?

I'm not expecting to be able to race the Survival deck, so I'll be needing some tools to win.

Suggestions are very much apreciated.

[keys]

I wouldn't sideboard too much graveyard hate, because they can still beat down with Jitte. Faerie is better than Crypt since you don't have to pass the turn with it on the table and expose it to artifact removal. Pithing Needle might be the best anti-Surivival card, as long as you can protect it from Predators and Pridemages.

[Grillo]

I took the exact same list I posted earlier to a 42 man tournament and placed 2nd.
I beat vengevine-survival, eva green, regular zoo, merfolk (many of them).
I ended 4-0-2 during the swiss finishing third.
Lost 2-1 to zoo in the finals. He played flawlessly and I didn't draw any removal in game 3.

I'll go into more detail later. I'm pretty tired now. I got 1 DCI Natural Order, 1 DCI Phyrexian Dreadnought and a sealed FTV:Exiled set. :D

Every game a Planeswalker hit the battlefield I won. They are that good.

Overall the deck performed great. It's getting some respect around here.

[jandax]

I used basically the same maindeck as posted in the OP yesterday to a scrub out over five rounds. I didn't punt anything, I didn't play flawlessly either, but I simply lost a lot of games because I was a turn away from lethal. Or perhaps a turn behind. It felt like the deck was good, but it was just one of those times where you lose good matchups.

[jedi_gof]

how come no one is considering maze of ith.
I played a big zoo recenty, and it is one of this decks MVPs!

with the knight it is soo awesome, you wouldnt believe it! Hope you are all aware it gives any creature vigilance? in attack step, after damage you can untap your critter/preferebly KotR and damage is still dealt! I played 1 main and actually another i could bring from the board, and it was awesome!

[Catitas]

the finals of coupe de france there were 2 big zoos in top4

[Grillo]

the finals of coupe de france there were 2 big zoos in top4

Catitas, do you have deck lists for that tournament?

I've found the metagame breakdown but I haven't been able to find any deck lists.

Meta:

Le Métagame :

14 Survival

9 Landstill
7 Goblins
6 Merfolk

5 Bant
4 Ichorid
3 Elves
3 Zoo
3 Rock GBw

2 Affinity
2 Threshold Ugr
2 Sneak Attack
2 Reanimator
2 Painter
2 Ad nauseam
2 Eva Green
2 Burn/Burn Rw

1 Mono Black
1 Show and Tell
1 BANT Loam
1 Doomsday
1 Faeries
1 GW Aggro/Maverick
1 Eternal Life
1 Fish BUG
1 Fish Uw


Par type de Deck :

40 aggro (24 %)
18 Aggro-controle (11 %)
12 combo (7 %)
9 contrôle (5 %)

[Catitas]

Grillo heres the top8 and the lists

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/decklists?event=498&format=T1.5

2nd place

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=205862

4th place

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=205865

Some interesting card choices in both decklists, and an anti survival sideboard...

[lordofthepit]

how come no one is considering maze of ith.
I played a big zoo recenty, and it is one of this decks MVPs!

with the knight it is soo awesome, you wouldnt believe it! Hope you are all aware it gives any creature vigilance? in attack step, after damage you can untap your critter/preferebly KotR and damage is still dealt! I played 1 main and actually another i could bring from the board, and it was awesome!

Can you actually target a creature with Maze of Ith after damage is dealt? That would be an interesting use.

[otherside]

Since it's a midrange deck why not run 1 of baneslayer angel. the deck is already running double white with elspeth.

[Catitas]

Can you actually target a creature with Maze of Ith after damage is dealt? That would be an interesting use.

Yup you can do that...

[jedi_gof]

Can you actually target a creature with Maze of Ith after damage is dealt? That would be an interesting use.

Yes you can. This is why the maze absolutely rules. I doubted the ruling myself untill it was ruled as a possible play at GP Columbus. This not only provides a added defence against faster decks but also servers as a vigilance enabler for any of your critters, allowing extra KotR abuse! :)

[jandax]

It works because as the card reads, "attacking creature", you can do it at any point in the attack phase and with any creature that has been declared an attacker. Seems like a no-brainer after the fact, but folks have been hung up on the before-combat-damage part of the phase.

Besides this talk here, has anyone put into practice an ammount of Mazes? How have they done? Is Maze of Ith possibly better than Wasteland?

[jedi_gof]

i have played 1 in main and without wastes. Simply because i play paths. I thinks we get second to nothing but screwed our selves by the wastes, but its a preference issue if you ask me. Maze singlehandetly won me several matches last time around as you for example kan attack with 2 wild nacatls into a goyf and prevent dmg on the blocked critter. othertimes same thing on the D.

[jandax]

In a more creature oriented metagame I can totally see Maze being more helpful than waste. what's a popular number? 2? 3?

[Catitas]

I would never play maze for 2 reasons...

1. Doesnt provide mana, slows your plays if one, if you consider 2 raises your mulligan percentage a lot... Besides mostly control decks run maze, because they run sweepers like Deeds or Spouts wich isnt the case here...

2. Most of the time is irrelevant, compared to wasteland...
Wasteland gives an edge against decks that run lands that you must destroy and also provides tempo wich means you'll have an extra attack... Just because maze gives vigilance to your creatures, that reason alone isn't enough to cut a wasteland for it...

[troopatroop]

I've moved from 3-3 Hierarch + Wasteland to 4-2. I've been finding that Wasteland is still good enough to play, but that two copies is probably best. This leaves room for 2 Horizon Canopy (which are stellar) 10 fetches, 6 duals, 2 basics, and 4 Noble Hierarch. That's alot of mana sources, 26 to be exact. One thing people are missing with Wasteland is the rogue factor. People don't expect it from the Zoo deck, and it can come as a nasty suprise. I like Maze of Ith, but it doesn't tap for mana. I think we play enough answers for creatures, and while the offensive ability can be very nice, I would rather mulligan less and cast Elspeth more consistantly. The Baneslayer comment made me smile, because I opened one a month ago, and have been wondering if I can get away with playing it in Legacy Big Zoo. I think she's probably too expensive, but she's also really strong, and can pull a game back from way behind. If anything she's easy to side out. My current list is as follows.

4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland

4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Baneslayer Angel

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library

I'm just testing out the Baneslayer Angel right now, it will probably prove too expensive. There's alot of cards that could take that spot. Figure of Destiny, Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, Jitte, Maze of Ith, Path, or Krosan Grip could all be good. That's the thing about the Zoo deck, is it's really customizable. There are like 54 cards that never change, but the way you allocate those 6 slots is largely up to you. I liked Tacosnapes idea of playing Pithing Needle main. It seems like it could be very strong, I know it's making my SB at least.

[woremak]

I'm just testing out the Baneslayer Angel right now, it will probably prove too expensive. There's alot of cards that could take that spot. Figure of Destiny, Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, Jitte, Maze of Ith, Path, or Krosan Grip could all be good. That's the thing about the Zoo deck, is it's really customizable. There are like 54 cards that never change, but the way you allocate those 6 slots is largely up to you. I liked Tacosnapes idea of playing Pithing Needle main. It seems like it could be very strong, I know it's making my SB at least.

Have you considered Ranger of Eos in that spot? It seems like a good way to reload, and late game fetching two lavamancers seem like a fine way to close through a clogged board.

[troopatroop]

Have you considered Ranger of Eos in that spot? It seems like a good way to reload, and late game fetching two lavamancers seem like a fine way to close through a clogged board.

This is what I'm talking about with customization! Ranger of Eos is also very good, and I have tested him. My reasoning behind not including him, is that he isn't good enough is some matchups. Yes he's great at rebuilding, but I think theres too many decks in Legacy that aren't trying to grind you out, and just win out of nowhere. It really has alot to do with your environment. I'm leaning towards O-Ring for that last spot. I feel like I will see plenty of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Counterbalance where I play.

[Catitas]

I'm currently playing this version...

// Lands
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [A] Mountain (1)
1 [A] Plains (1)
1 [A] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [A] Taiga
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [A] Savannah
2 [A] Plateau

// Creatures
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

[Esper3k]

What I find interesting is that this deck is moving towards something similar to what the Standard/Extended versions ran (Baneslayer Angels, bigger creatures like KoTR, Planeswalkers, Ranger of Eos).

Maybe it'll move towards Bloodbraid Elves or Boom/Bust?

[Scatterbrain]

What I find interesting is that this deck is moving towards something similar to what the Standard/Extended versions ran (Baneslayer Angels, bigger creatures like KoTR, Planeswalkers, Ranger of Eos).

Maybe it'll move towards Bloodbraid Elves or Boom/Bust?

I cannot possibly see Boom/Bust as strong enough in Legacy, even though it is effectively a 1-mana LD spell with a fetchland, you almost never want to be using your second or third turn not playing a creature. Most decks in the metagame are prepared some some degree of LD anyway, and it will probably just set the whole game back a turn and maybe let you get in 3 damage off of a Nacatl.

Bloodbraid though would be great against control, because if you cascade into a path/swords and put it on bottom that is still slightly better than drawing it.

[otherside]

Id run 1 of maze of ith and bokuja bog in the SB fetchable by Kotr. The Baneslayer spot could also be stoneforge but i don't think this deck needs jitte

[lordofthepit]

Shouldn't this deck already be in Established (even before this thread was made)?

[Grillo]

I think the Baneslayer Angel idea might be a very good one!
In the last two tournaments I've lost only to Zoo decks and I've been looking for some ways to improve that match.
I've been thinking about Jittes, Terravores, Wing Shards, etc... but I haven't been too sure about them.

But Baneslayer looks like a good idea that can go directly into the maindeck. It's a way to break the 50/50 that I feel Big Zoo has against Zoo.

It's worth testing for sure.

In case you are interested, here is the top8 from the last tournament I played where I placed 2nd.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=63

[nedleeds]

I played the following last week at a 16-20 person Legacy.

Enchantress - 1-0
Painter's Stone - 2-0
Merfolk - 3-0
Draw

Top 8 Merfolk 4-0-1, then split.

There has been much less combo and reanimator to be found which makes a deck like this much more viable. I don't run Nactyl, instead relying on Figure. 8 exalteds makes just about any creature a threat. Not see'ing Firespout allowed me to play aggressive and run out 2-3 smaller exalteds and a beater. I went back and forth on Light and Shadow or Sledge. Trample is epic with 4/kotr and 4/goyf but recurring Qasali's can also be helpful. With Sylvans and fetching you can see quite a few cards so the one Geddon is useful. It won any game it resolved in (2 i think).

// NAME: Erhnamgeddon
// Men
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
// Search
2 Sylvan Library
// GG
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Armageddon
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Defense
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Dead // Gone
// Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
4 Savannah

[Jonathan Alexander]

For those who are interested in Stoneforge Mystic: It's quite cool but it's really mana-hungry. I'm currently testing a Naya midrange build but it shouldn't be considered Zoo, it rather evolved from G/W Maverick. I thought about sharing it for a while now, but I'm not entirely finished developing it. The interesting thing about my build is that it's aggro with Firespout. Being able to run Firespout is awesome against literally every deck with creatures but it comes with a few sacrifices. Before I go into detail too much, here is the list:

//Lands
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

//Creatures
4 Birds Of Paradise
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

//Other Spells
3 Æther Vial
3 Firespout
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Sword Of Light And Shadow
4 Swords To Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

First off: the manabase looks awful, but it works. I never had problems with it, though I'm sometimes considering to cut Æther Vial. Cutting Vial for Noble Hierarch seems reasonable, but then I'd have to cut Firespout. Without Firespout, I'd play different creatures. With different creatures, the Equipment-package would be worse. So I would cut the package for more creatures + Elspeth. This would result in adjusting the manabase, since I would need more coloured mana. So it really isn't easy to change too much since it would heavily shake up the deck. This would be real Big Zoo then. Not that I don't like the deck, I really think it's powerful and I really like it, but it just isn't the way I want to go right now.
What I might indeed cut are Scryb Sprites, though they're really useful. Like I said before, this evolved from G/W Maverick, which can pull some nice tricks with Sprite. Sprite is pretty awesome against Wastelands, which is basically the main reason why I'm still playing it. If really was to cut Sprite, I'd add the fourth Knight and a singleton Elspeth, Knight-Errant.
As for the sideboard. I really don't know what I want to play here. I'm usually running a few pieces of gravehate and a few Gaddock Teegs. I'm also frequently playing Krosan Grips. Right now, an Enlightened Tutor sideboard seems reasonable aswell, there are a lot of great answers for this kind of board.

This is a potential sideboard, without Enlightened Tutor:

1 Bojuka Bog
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere

Trinisphere seems a bit weird, but it has been quite good in testing. I have to admit, that I'm still looking for other options, but there aren't any problem-matchups except combo, at least in my testing. The aggro and aggro control matchup is really good, especially tribal and regular Zoo. Vengevine Survival is usually even, even preboard. The deck has enough way to slow them down and their creatures aren't actually bigger than ours. The potential of this deck to manascrew the opponent is enormous. It kind of plays like tempo without counters and with more aggro. I'm still looking to playtest this deck more and develop it further, so I might be posting updates from time to time.

[troopatroop]

Firespout is a great card, but I don't think this is the deck for it. I like your approach, in using Flying creatures and stuff, but I feel that Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage are too important to exclude. Otherwise your deck doesn't really put on any pressure early, and you scoop it up to faster decks. Playing Birds of Paradise also seems silly in the Zoo deck. Granted, you do make good use of him with Firespout and Equipment, but I like Noble Hierarch for the exalted. It's an interesting take on the deck though. Your Goblins/Merfolk matchup seems really hard to lose.

[ivanpei]

I've been playing maze tricks with KOTR for ages and I admit that it does win games on its own. I'd still stick the maze in the board though. Wasteland is just too important. I got greedy with 4 wastelands once, against decks without wastelands of their own, they were wicked amazing. Then I played against new horizons and yeah, I cut down to 3 again for more mana stability. I think you really want 20 coloured + 3 wastes in most big zoo builds (along with 3/4 heirarchs).

[Jonathan Alexander]

Firespout is a great card, but I don't think this is the deck for it. I like your approach, in using Flying creatures and stuff, but I feel that Wild Nacatl and Qasali Pridemage are too important to exclude. Otherwise your deck doesn't really put on any pressure early, and you scoop it up to faster decks. Playing Birds of Paradise also seems silly in the Zoo deck. Granted, you do make good use of him with Firespout and Equipment, but I like Noble Hierarch for the exalted. It's an interesting take on the deck though. Your Goblins/Merfolk matchup seems really hard to lose.

Playing Firespout in an aggro deck is awesome. Like you said, I just don't lose against aggro. Basically everything you said is right, except for the part with not putting on pressure early and losing to faster decks. What decks are you talking about here, storm combo and Vengevine? The Vengevine matchup is definitely okay because of lots of removal, big creatures and being able to slow down your opponent significantly. And storm combo. Is storm combo. I'm not sure about how to beat them, but I rarely face any storm combo anyway.
I started working on a slightly different build yesterday and I will share it as soon as I got some testing with it and can share results. Hopefully I can finish it and start testing today.
By the way, I'm considering Maze for this new build. We'll see how this is gonna work out.

[Antonius]

Since running sweepers is already becoming a part of the discussion, I figured I would post this build here. I know, this is very far away from Zoo as it exists, but it is, in my opinion, the most extreme you can go as far as "big" is concerned.

4 Mox Diamond

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goyf
4 Countryside Crusher
2 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Seismic Assault
2 Sylvan Library

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
4 Life from the Loam

[Jonathan Alexander]

You posted this list in the Aggro Loam thread already, didn't you? This is quite similar to the list I'm working on right now, except that I don't run Steppe Lynx and Countryside Crusher but Terravore and more utility-lands like Rishadan Port, Maze Of Ith and Tabernacle. I also don't run Seismic Assault and red is clearly the splashcolour in my list.
By the way, I think you forgot to write down Life From The Loam since your list is only 56 cards. I will share my exact list as soon as it's finished.

//Lands
1 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

//Creatures
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore

//Other Spells
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Firespout
3 Life From The Loam
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords To Plowshares

This is a rough draft, but I'm not sure about the manabase yet and I also don't know whether I want to run Birds Of Paradise or Mox Diamond. Birds obviously interacts with Elspeth, whereas Mox Diamond is better with Loam and powers out turn one Tarmogoyf and other stuff. I originally din't actually plan to run that many Life From The Loam and had only one in the list. I basically just wanted to try out Firespout with huge creatures instead of flying creatures.

[lordofthepit]

Can one of you guys running Maze of Ith post your lists?

Do you run Wastelands as well? How many total lands are you running?

[Jonathan Alexander]

My current list has 22 lands, 3 Wasteland and 1 Maze Of Ith. I'm sometimes unable to cast Elspeth, but apart from that I like the list, it runs pretty well. I might squeeze in the fourth Noble Hierarch or something, I'm not sure. Sylvan Library hasn't been overwhelming, but it's okay. Probably the first card I would cut. This is the list:

//Lands
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

//Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

//Other Spells
4 Chain Lightning
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library

//Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt

I should probably cut something for Pithing Needle, Gaddock Teeg for example. Needle is really good in this deck. I don't know why I'm not running then. Maybe because I'm usually running Naya Sligh over Zoo these days, but Zoo is having kind of a comeback haha
The deck is fun to play, I might play it in a local tournament within the next weeks, we'll see. I'm not sure what to play yet. If anyone wants to play a few games via Cockatrice just pm me.

[lordofthepit]

I took this deck to a local shop and ended up winning my first tournament (4 Underground Seas).

Surprisingly, I faced Survival/Vengevine decks 3 times, and went 2-0-1. In that one tie, I had the other guy down to 2 life with no hand and only one Bayou on board at the end of extra turns staring down a pretty big army on my end.

I had never faced Survival decks in a competitive setting before (because I have been playing relatively sparingly), but I am very aware of how it has been dominating the SCG metagame, and I fully expected to get crushed those three games. I'm someone who usually values meta-analysis much more than individual anecdotal experiences, even my own, so I'm not about to proclaim this a "favorable" matchup. But what have your experiences been against Survival decks?

On another note, I can't imagine ever switching back to conventional Zoo unless the metagame alters significantly. By that, I'm talking an unbanned Mystical Tutor allowing Reanimator and ANT to become significant presences, with Merfolk and Countertop becoming much more popular to combat those decks. I think only then would I pilot Zoo (to prey on Merfolk decks, and to a lesser extent, Countertop), and a fast version at that to threaten those combo decks that are dependent on life total to operate.

Some positives I noticed about "Big Zoo":
- With 26 mana sources including Hierarchs, I had almost no trouble ramping up to 3 or 4 mana to play my bombs. It also ensured that I wouldn't get blown out by wastelands. (That isn't to say I didn't lose a few games with a greedy keep.)
- The combination of fetchlands, Horizon Canopy, Knights, and Sylvan Library provide tremendous "card quality" advantage in the long game. When playing "traditional Zoo", I've ended mirror matches with as many as eight lands, which is really frustrating when you get into attrition mode. Despite playing more mana sources and playing longer matches, I didn't draw as many "dead" lands late.
- Because I'm not topdecking lands late, nor am I ripping Apes, Lions, or Lynxes, I have a very solid late game (Noble Hierarch is the worst card you can draw late).
- Big Zoo does not need to overextend its board to represent a dangerous clock, which means it does not get owned as hard by global sweepers. It has more variety in its casting costs, which helps against Engineered Explosives. Elspeth provides a lot of resilience as well.
- I was tempted to drop the burn suite and play one of the various Bant aggro decks, which runs a similar creature base but "better" cards like cantrips and Force of Will, and some have questioned whether Big Zoo is better than New Horizons and Bant Aggro. I can't say if it's better for sure, but having so much removal is great not only against other aggro decks, but also Survival which has mana dorks that you want to put away as quickly as you can. And of course, your opponent still has to respect your reach.

[Mr. Safety]

Just curious: has anyone attempted using Bloodbraid Elf/Congregation at Dawn in their Big Zoo list?

[troopatroop]

Bloodbraid has been used, but I didn't think he was all that good. Congregation at Dawn just seems too slow for Legacy.

Nice to hear that people are having success. In playing against Survival, I really felt behind in that matchup. They can win out of nowhere, and they're the only deck that plays "fair" that I don't want to face. Not like they play fair for long, or that our Bolts and stuff can't slow them down, or that Wild Nacatl can't run them over, but I don't want to play them. We really don't have much to stop Survival. Note my board.

4 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
2 Silence
1 Ethersworn Cannonist

Cards that could all come in against various forms of Survival, but have applications elsewhere too. If Survival gets banned, I would really consider this to be a tier 1 deck. Granted, I think many people will gravitate towards combo, but if an equal number migrate back to Merfolk/Goblins/Counter-top, this deck should be a serious contender.

[Mr. Safety]

The whole idea of Congregation at Dawn is to do this:

At the end of your opponents turn, stack your deck with Bloodbraid, Goyf/Knight of the Reliquary, Bloodbraid. On your turn, you play Bloodbraid and get a free Goyf. Then you can set up another Bloodbraid on your next turn. Your opponent will see it coming the second time, but you can usually play around it.

It seemed good to me, and free Goyfs/Knight of the Reliquary doesn't seem that bad...

[Jonathan Alexander]

What makes Congregation At Dawn better than Elspeth, Knight-Errant? (Which I cut from my list by the way.)
In a nutshell, you want to do the same with both cards: achieve cardadvantage and put down pressure. But Congregation At Dawn is quite bad at doing this. At first, it's carddisadvantage until you cast the first Bloodbraid Elf. Then you're were you started. When you cast the second one, you're finally up one card, but you've forced yourself to overextend (into rather mediocre threats by the way). Elspeth immediatly starts creating tokens or pumping your creatures (and giving them evasion, which is often important). An army of Bloodbraid Elfs doesn't do much in creature wars, but a +3/+3 flying Tarmogoyf or Knight Of The Reliquary does. On top of that Elspeth doesn't really have any design requirements, Congregation At Dawn + 3+ Bloodbraid Elfs do take up quite some deckspace. The planeswalker cardtype is really beneficial by the way, compared to Bloodbraid Elf's "creature".

You could also compare Congregatin At Dawn to Sylvan Library. (Which I still play and really enjoy having.)
Here it basically becomes clear how bad the "engine" is. Sylvan Library is another card that at first generates card disadvantage. And like Congregation At Dawn, it's supposed to help you putting down pressure after the first assault (granted it didn't work the first time). Like Elspeth, it can generate cardadvantage without putting any design constraints on you. Against control your life total often doesn't matter anyway, so you can easily draw up to three cards off it during a game.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not saying Congregation/Bloodbraid is better than Elspeth...I'm just curious if it has been attempted in legacy. IMHO, they seem to go together nicely...I wasn't trying to compare. If you're attempting card advantage (in order to create board advantage) then casting a 'cheat'ed bloodbraid elf into another viable threat post-Elspeth seems good to me. I understand that you can 'overextend' with this strategy, but if it's in the mid-game (which is where you're heading, that's the whole idea behind Big Zoo) you should have weaseled out at least MOST of the Dazes/Force of Wills that your opponent has. At worst, you're getting a 4 mana Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf, at best you're getting a 3/2 hasted attacker ALONG WITH a Knight of the Reliquary/Tarmogoyf. Elspeth can create a threat or make one of your threats bigger/evasive. Congregation/Bloodbraid sets you up with 2 threats, and possibly doing it AGAIN if you stack it Bloodbraid/Goyf/Bloodbraid.

So you're saying that Goyf/Knight of the Reliquary are mediocre threats when they come free off a Bloodbraid Elf? You'll have to explain that one to me...

[Jonathan Alexander]

The point is that it isn't free. You pay GGGGWRR4 for two Bloodbraid Elves, one Knight Of The Reliquary/Tarmogoyf and another random card. This just doesn't cut it. If you run both, Bloodbraid Elf and Elspeth, your curve becomes too high. If the effect wasn't that expensive it could even be quite cool, but as it is, running more threats alongside Sylvan Library is just better.
This is my new list by the way, it's not that "big" anymore, I rather focus on exploiting tempo-advantages.

//Lands
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

//Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

//Other Spells
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library

//Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt

Considering that Maze Of Ith is in there in place of the fourth Grim Lavamancer, the list is pretty straightforward. It's strong and I enjoy playing it. Up until today I had two Pithing Needle instead of the fourth Wasteland and the fourth Noble Hierarch, but I figured I wouldn't need them anymore.
The sideboard could change a bit as well, I'm considering Pyrostatic Pillar instead of Ethersworn Canonist. I don't sideboard that much anyway, basically only against Dredge and storm combo.
I'm also considering some sideboard Elspeths for the control matchup, but I'm not sure if they deserve the spot.

[nedleeds]

re: CaD

I'd argue the eladamris call is even better then CaD. I've run 2 in bigger zoo before to grab silver bullets that you don't wan't more than one of.

gaddock teeg
harmonic sliver
true believer
kataki
mystic enforcer
jotun grunt
etc.

[Mr. Safety]

re: CaD

I'd argue the eladamris call is even better then CaD. I've run 2 in bigger zoo before to grab silver bullets that you don't wan't more than one of.

gaddock teeg
harmonic sliver
true believer
kataki
mystic enforcer
jotun grunt
etc.

Add Vexing Shusher to that list, lol.

I can see that it is fairly apparent that Congregation at Dawn/Bloodbraid Elf are too mana-intensive for serious legacy play. If that's the case, I think even Eldadamri's Call is too expensive, and Worldly Tutor or Living Wish become the tutors of choice for efficiency's sake.

[nedleeds]

Add Vexing Shusher to that list, lol.

I can see that it is fairly apparent that Congregation at Dawn/Bloodbraid Elf are too mana-intensive for serious legacy play. If that's the case, I think even Eldadamri's Call is too expensive, and Worldly Tutor or Living Wish become the tutors of choice for efficiency's sake.

Sure. Call is a different deal as you are embedding the deck with a couple of bullets, as opposed to a wish board. Call is also an instant and replaces itself. Worldly just top decks. In a normal hyper aggressive zoo you'd never run it, but an EOT call for your one of <insert spoiler> in a bigger slower zoo isn't the worst play, especially if you run Sylvan Library as well.

[Mr. Safety]

Sure. Call is a different deal as you are embedding the deck with a couple of bullets, as opposed to a wish board. Call is also an instant and replaces itself. Worldly just top decks. In a normal hyper aggressive zoo you'd never run it, but an EOT call for your one of <insert spoiler> in a bigger slower zoo isn't the worst play, especially if you run Sylvan Library as well.

Worldly Tutor can avoid situations when you are facing up to 8 Duress effects and you don't want to open your hate card up to targeted discard. It only costs G and can set you up with what you need at your opponent's EOT, which is functionally the same as Eladamri's Call only it costs G instead of WG. Tutor is also another cheap shuffle effect for Sylvan Library (as you pointed out) allowing you to possibly have R available for EOT Lightning Bolt/Grim Lavamancer activation or RW available for EOT Lightning Helix, or W available for Swords/Path. That's all I meant.

The idea of a Living Wish package is that you don't have to put tutors AND silver bullets into your deck, taking up 5-7 slots. You can maindeck 3-4 Living Wish and just dedicate 2-3 slots in your sb for those silver bullets. Sorcery speed, yes, but if you're hoping to grind through countermagic with a tutor, you've failed already. They'll just counter whatever you just fetched, allowing for a nice 2-for-1 on their side.

[troopatroop]

Tutors are really bad in this deck, but Eladamari's Call (instant) is also clearly the best of the lot. If they counter what you search for, it is NOT a 2 for 1. It's 1 for 1 in cards, but you go down in a different resource (mana). If you're spending mana on a tutor effect in legacy, your target should really be winning you the game. It's not a solid plan to spend mana like that on only answers, and there are very solid permanent threats at 2cc that this deck wants in play. Worldly Tutor is terrible, because it puts you a card down. That's huge.

[lordofthepit]

Can those of you who run Ajani Vengeant in addition to two Elspeths comment how that has worked out for you? I could see myself wanting more planeswalkers in a control matchup (like Landstill), but the plus ability seems pretty underwhelming in general, and I don't think you can reliably use the -2 or -7 abilities. That being said, some people swear by him.

[Mr. Safety]

Tutors are really bad in this deck, but Eladamari's Call (instant) is also clearly the best of the lot. If they counter what you search for, it is NOT a 2 for 1. It's 1 for 1 in cards, but you go down in a different resource (mana). If you're spending mana on a tutor effect in legacy, your target should really be winning you the game. It's not a solid plan to spend mana like that on only answers, and there are very solid permanent threats at 2cc that this deck wants in play. Worldly Tutor is terrible, because it puts you a card down. That's huge.

Point taken. Top of deck means you don't see a new card on your draw phase, meaning one card down. Appreciate the discussion, that was great. At least EC puts the card you search for in your hand.

[Whippoorwill]

Took first last night at the weekly Legacy tournament. Had around mid-20s attendance I think.

Lands - 21
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Taiga
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Nantuko Monastery

Creatures - 25
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Woolly Thoctar
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Other - 14
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Berserk
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Combust (Fish & Peacekeeper are common here)
3 Null Rod
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Bojuka Bog

Round 1 vs. R/u Goblins

Game 1: He ends up trying to rush the kill and takes me to 6 from 19. I kill him the following turn since he didn't save any blockers for my Nacatls.

-1 Ajani
-2 ???
+2 REB
+1 Pyroblast

Game 2: Removal keeps him from doing silly stuff with Warchief & Piledrivers while I build up my side to eventually take the game. He also misplayed Echoing Truth on a single Goyf when I had 2 Pridemages out.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2 vs. U/B/G Dark Depths

Game 1: He Stifles my Fetches the first 2 turns then combos out and I don't have Path.

-2 Elspeth
-1 Ajani
+2 REB
+1 Pyroblast

Game 2: I get to use my Fetches this time and Path handles Merit Lage. He Living Wished for Tabernacle, but at that point it was too late.

Game 3: My deck went into Topdeck mode this game. He cast Jace and I cracked Canopy to draw and drew REB to counter it. From there I drew into 3 Bloodbraids which made Pernicious Deed simply a nuisance rather than a game breaker.

2-0; 4-1

Round 3 vs. R/B/g

Game 1: He starts with a Figure of Destiny and burns my Nacatl. Duress finds nothing when he cast it since I had all creatures. I made a play mistake blocking Figure knowing he was going to pump it, not sure what I was thinking. I gained control of the board shortly after that.

No board changes.

Game 2: I play smart this time and Bolt his Figure in response to pumping. Between all the removal I drew and Bloodbraids, I had the board advantage and took the game.

3-0; 6-1

Round 4 vs. U/w Fish

Game 1: I lead with Nacatl and he leads with Wasteland. I had to resort to beating for 2 after playing a basic Plains. He gets Vial but I have enough removal/threats to keep his side clear and get the win.

-2 Elspeth
-1 Ajani
-3 Thoctar
+2 REB
+1 Pyroblast
+3 Combust

Game 2: I keep a risky hand with 1 Land, Hierarch, Nacatl & some removal. He counters both 1 drops but thankfully doesn't draw a Wasteland. I get Library out on turn 3 and take the hit for 8 since there was removal. He went to Submerge one of my guys, but I Pathed it instead since I needed the land more than the creature. He picks away at me with an Adept and Mutavault til Adept is met with a Combust and Mutavault gets a Bolt. I get a Knight on the board (for the 2nd time due to Submerge) and swing. He blocks with Lord and I Berserk the Knight making it a 12/6 Trample for lethal.

4-0; 8-1

The 3rd undefeated going into that round lost, so there was no need for another round which gave me the overall win.

Thoughts on cards:
-Ajani was experimental. I'll probably cut him for more removal or the 4th Hierarch/Knight.
-Elspeth didn't do anything today, but she was the MVP 2 weeks ago against CounterTop.
-Bloodbraid was great, easily the MVP of the night.
-Monastery I never got to use.
-Berserk is a nice surprise finisher. I think the trample is more important than the power boost (though the boost is quite nice) since chump blocking is common.

-Sideboard could use some work. I'm happy with the anti-blue package though. Leylines and to a lesser extent, Null Rods were for Combo. Affinity is also somewhat common, so Rod works there as well.

[Catitas]

I played Big Zoo to a top4 finish in the final tournment of gargula's league and felt happy about the card choices and the meta aproach...

Heres the link
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5512

My teammates and i dominated that tournment...i only lost to fizzle combo due to insane hands of my friend but it happens...

Creatures [22]
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [11]
3 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [4]
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Choke
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mindbreak Trap


round 1

Goblins 2-1

He starts really fast and has edict for my dudes and thats game...game 2 and 3 punishing lock plus big dudes games for me...

round 2

TES 2-1

He kills me turn 2, game 2 he goes off turn 2 i mindbreak him on warrens...game 3 tutor to canonist...to double goyf with trap in hand... good times...

round 3

Fizzle Combo 0-2

I bash him to 1 and he kills me...didnt find any burn that game... game 2 i misplayed using knight forgeting that flash of insight flasback cost ioncludes removing cards...lol

round 4

UW Thopter Counterop 2-0

I go off with hierarch followed by knight and double elspeth e makes turn 2 countertop and forces my elspeth but top dont reveal him a solution to second and i win... game 2 i play noble followed by needle on his top and 2 nacatls...GG

round 5

Sneaky show 2-0

I started with double nacatl and pridemage he goes off on turn 3 show and tell for progenitus i kill him with double bolt and ajani helix... game 2 he sneaks for primus i sword it and win with a baneslayer...

4-1

Thoughts:

Punishing fire/grove of the burnwillows/swords to plowshares lock is insane clearly superior to grim lavamancer, and more sinergic with Knight of the reliquary and goyf...
The planeswalkers are insane...pretty much against everything...so 4 seems good to me, baneslayer is hot specially in creature matchs and countertop due to his high CMC, sylvan library is just that awsome...

I changed the list a bit now
-1 savannah
-1 grove of the burnwillows
+1 horizon canopy
+1 karakas

Side thoughts:

I really like the tutor package but my blood moon didnt come in time so i improvised a little, but ill keep it the way it is now...

[lordofthepit]

I played Big Zoo to a top4 finish in the final tournment of gargula's league and felt happy about the card choices and the meta aproach...

Heres the link
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5512

My teammates and i dominated that tournment...i only lost to fizzle combo due to insane hands of my friend but it happens...

Creatures [22]
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [11]
3 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [4]
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Choke
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mindbreak Trap


Looks like a blast to play.

Edit: I imagine this stomps all over aggro. How well does the Fires combo work against control decks? Do you ever win games just by burning them out with recurring Fires?

[Catitas]

Aggro is so easy, i recall testing against goblins, merfolks, mirror... i was playing a control deck i didnt play a single creature sometimes, they just run out of fuel and then you dump beat sticks or just fire them... Against control decks its hilarious i remember games playing against standstill decks and i was killing jaces with fires (they're almost time forced to play them to find loam for waste lock) and then moved to kill him so easily, just make sure they dont waste lock you, although planeswalkers are just insane against them... decks that cant waste lock you, are easy to beat... basically you have infinite burn for them...

Fire is weak against countertop but if you have tons of mana you can make him tap by recurring fires everytime you want to dump a threat on them specially if your holding a qasali in hand and want it so resolve to get rid of balance...

[Whippoorwill]

Did a couple changes to the version I'm running 2 weeks ago ending up with the following list:

Lands - 21
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Taiga
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Nantuko Monastery

Creatures - 25
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Woolly Thoctar
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Other - 14
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Combust
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Null Rod
2 Faerie Macabre

2 Weeks Ago:

Round 1 vs Mono White Vial? 2-1
Lost game 2 due to Nobilis of War.

Round 2 vs Bitter Stalker 2-0
At first I thought he was playing SneakyTell due to a comment someone made. His removal made it quite annoying for me, but Sword of Fire/Ice came in handy as well as Nantuko Monastery.

In game 2, Tombstalker was a problem for a couple turns then I think I landed an Elspeth to put him on the defensive.

Round 3 vs Burn 1-2
Game 1, he outburned me. Game 2, Knight with Basilisk Collar made it impossible for him to win. Game 3 I punted by not mulliganing into a better hand.

Round 4 vs. Goblins 2-1
Main things of note were Sword of Fire/Ice making an impact game 1 and Basilisk Collar in game 3.

Ended up in 2nd overall and the Burn deck got 1st.


Last Night:

Round 1 vs. W/g Aggro 2-0
He got me down to 1, but Elspeth + Knight + Basilisk Collar put me back to 16 (He had a Serra Avenger out that was beating me).
Game 2 he ended up getting out Leonin Arbiter (after I had already used the Fetches I had) and I hit a few of his creatures with Paths when he tapped out.

Round 2 vs. Dredge 2-0
He basically had the game won, but then he said he screwed up and couldn't win. I'm not gonna turn down a free win against Dredge, but I still don't see how he lost. Kinda thinking he thought he milled to death since he had just Dredged away the last of his library before saying that, but I thought you just replace the draw in that situation anyways.

Game 2 Faerie Macabre pretty much neuters his deck long enough for me to take him out. He did get an Narcomoeba that beat me for a bit.

Round 3 vs. Mono Blue Fish 2-0
Game 1 was 3 Nacatls and Removal.
Game 2 Basilisk Collar pretty much locked him out.

Round 4 vs. U/w Fish ID
It was a friend, so we just split. I'm confortable with the matchup though.

I kinda want to try the 1x Baneslayer (would cut 1x Bloodbraid) and have been thinking about the Thoctar spots and possibly replacing them with Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers (would give me a creature for both offense and defense), Boggart Ram-Gangs (Haste seems nice, and Wither against bigger things) or Helixes (just good).

Edit: Narcomoeba, not Aquamoeba.

[lordofthepit]

Aggro is so easy, i recall testing against goblins, merfolks, mirror... i was playing a control deck i didnt play a single creature sometimes, they just run out of fuel and then you dump beat sticks or just fire them... Against control decks its hilarious i remember games playing against standstill decks and i was killing jaces with fires (they're almost time forced to play them to find loam for waste lock) and then moved to kill him so easily, just make sure they dont waste lock you, although planeswalkers are just insane against them... decks that cant waste lock you, are easy to beat... basically you have infinite burn for them...

Fire is weak against countertop but if you have tons of mana you can make him tap by recurring fires everytime you want to dump a threat on them specially if your holding a qasali in hand and want it so resolve to get rid of balance...

I'm going to try to build something like this.

I have almost no trouble at all against aggro decks with Big Zoo, and I highly doubt that the Punishing Fires tech will make this worse.

When I lose to control decks, it's because my creatures eat Firespouts or recurring Engineered Explosives or Wrath of God. Big Zoo does play better around these effects than traditional Zoo, but it still happens. The beauty of Big Zoo (including Punishing Zoo) is that you can threaten them with 4 planeswalkers which control decks cannot remove easily with traditional sweepers, which are still useful in aggro matchups (although Ajani is significantly weaker than Elspeth). Moreover, by using Punishing Fires recursion in place of Grim Lavamancer, you rely still less on creatures (thus making yourself more resilient to sweepers), while still maintaining threat density and forcing them to hate you on another level--the graveyard, which is a losing strategy for them.

Combo matchups in general will probably continue to be miserable, probably even more so than with faster Zoo decks, but that's something to be addressed in the sideboard (or with a choice of a different deck).

[Catitas]

I'm going to try to build something like this.

I have almost no trouble at all against aggro decks with Big Zoo, and I highly doubt that the Punishing Fires tech will make this worse.

When I lose to control decks, it's because my creatures eat Firespouts or recurring Engineered Explosives or Wrath of God. Big Zoo does play better around these effects than traditional Zoo, but it still happens. The beauty of Big Zoo (including Punishing Zoo) is that you can threaten them with 4 planeswalkers which control decks cannot remove easily with traditional sweepers, which are still useful in aggro matchups (although Ajani is significantly weaker than Elspeth). Moreover, by using Punishing Fires recursion in place of Grim Lavamancer, you rely still less on creatures (thus making yourself more resilient to sweepers), while still maintaining threat density and forcing them to hate you on another level--the graveyard, which is a losing strategy for them.

Combo matchups in general will probably continue to be miserable, probably even more so than with faster Zoo decks, but that's something to be addressed in the sideboard (or with a choice of a different deck).

Combo matchups really are making me change the side every week, but i think the deck is favored against pretty much everything except combo...

[blue_mage]

1.) Hi! I'm interested on building a BIG zoo. Just want to ask if ajani vengent is still good for these kind of deck and why? thanks!

2.) And in what decks is punishing fire combo good against? I'm still not that convince in buying a set.

3.)And by the way will we be having trouble against decks playing phyrexian crusader? Since are spot removal is not enough and tarmogoyf and nacatal are the only ones able to block it?

4.) lastly is jitte SB material card or MD?

Feedbacks will be much appreciated :)

[Whippoorwill]

1.) Hi! I'm interested on building a BIG zoo. Just want to ask if ajani vengent is still good for these kind of deck and why? thanks!

2.) And in what decks is punishing fire combo good against? I'm still not that convince in buying a set.

3.)And by the way will we be having trouble against decks playing phyrexian crusader? Since are spot removal is not enough and tarmogoyf and nacatal are the only ones able to block it?

4.) lastly is jitte SB material card or MD?

Feedbacks will be much appreciated :)

1. I never used mine before I took it out, so I can't really comment.

2. Its best against tribal aggro (Goblins, Merfolk) since you can kill just about all their threats with it.

3. If Crusader becomes popular, then Equipment maindeck may become more popular since it kills him. Jitte and/or Sword of Fire & Ice being the best options. And with Elspeth, we don't really need to worry about them blocking with Crusader.

4. Depends on your meta really. If your area is aggro heavy, I'd run it main, otherwise its best in the side.


I'm gonna try Green Sun's Zenith in the deck this weekend and see how it does. I also want to try to work Hero of Bladehold into the deck, but I don't really see it surviving a turn for me to use. The 7+ power is so tempting though for 4 mana.

[blue_mage]

1. I never used mine before I took it out, so I can't really comment.

2. Its best against tribal aggro (Goblins, Merfolk) since you can kill just about all their threats with it.

3. If Crusader becomes popular, then Equipment maindeck may become more popular since it kills him. Jitte and/or Sword of Fire & Ice being the best options. And with Elspeth, we don't really need to worry about them blocking with Crusader.

4. Depends on your meta really. If your area is aggro heavy, I'd run it main, otherwise its best in the side.


I'm gonna try Green Sun's Zenith in the deck this weekend and see how it does. I also want to try to work Hero of Bladehold into the deck, but I don't really see it surviving a turn for me to use. The 7+ power is so tempting though for 4 mana.

a BIG zoo made top 10 in Indianapolis legacy open with green sun's zenith, was it you?

I also played a big zoo variant yeserday in a 54 man tourney. I had a blazzing start (3 - 0 - 1) until I was paired to 2 combo decks in the last two round. :(

Next time i'll bring mindbreak traps! Sadly they both combo out on turn 1!

[lordofthepit]

a BIG zoo made top 10 in Indianapolis legacy open with green sun's zenith, was it you?

I also played a big zoo variant yeserday in a 54 man tourney. I had a blazzing start (3 - 0 - 1) until I was paired to 2 combo decks in the last two round. :(

Next time i'll bring mindbreak traps! Sadly they both combo out on turn 1!

Surprisingly, I think that's the first time I've seen a Zoo deck in the top 16 this year, even though I think a metagame full of Goblins, Merfolk, and Countertop should be a good one for Zoo. I'm mildly surprised that it's a Big Zoo deck, more because there are a lot fewer pilots than "normal Zoo", but I do think Big Zoo is better positioned.

[Bokonon]

I took a Big Zoo deck to SCG Nashville back in Vengevine Winter that was almost exactly the list that made top 16 in Indy (minus the GSZ and plus some chains) and did pretty well even then (39th, which was the top zoo deck of the day - sad). I really think that in the current environment, if you're running Big Zoo, Zenith is going to be a must-have card. Grats to Stanley Smith for the performance, if you're around on these forums, BTW. At first, I thought it was just an over-costed Goyf/Knight 5-8, but with this much Countertop running around, really it's not only that but also Elspeth 3-6. It gives us a way to get threats on the table around a counterbalance lock, which has consistently been a big problem with zoo in the past year, big or little. Heck, the only reason I won a game (not a match, unfortunately) against Prosak with U/W balance at that tournament was because Elspeth cost 4. GSZ plays a double role in the deck of redundancy and resilience that I think outweighs the loss of removal spots, especially in these big variants that are already focused on the creature game. I couldn't make it to Indy, but I know I'll be picking up a set ASAP to add in when I go with big zoo (I still like fast zoo in combo heavy environments, but that's not what we have right now).

[BigStanDaddy]

Thanks for the gratz man and I'll have a report and the changes I made since yesterday posted later today. But I will say this much, Green Sun's Zenith is amazing!!!!

[Bokonon]

Just got my order in for Zeniths. :) Anyway, I'm thinking in my build I"m gonna try to find a place to squeeze in a MD singleton Teeg on the off chance I get paired against storm, just to give me a shot against them G1. T1 Hierarch into T2 Zenith for Teeg would be a beating on them, since they usually don't have Chain of Vapor to bring in till game 2. And, since this deck's combo matchup is one of its big weaknesses, if we can pull out a G1 win, it gives us a much better shot, even against low odds, games 2-3 to pull through a match. Haven't tested yet though - I'll see if I can get my testing partner to put together storm and see how it plays out.

[niknight]

I'm gonna try Green Sun's Zenith in the deck this weekend and see how it does. I also want to try to work Hero of Bladehold into the deck, but I don't really see it surviving a turn for me to use. The 7+ power is so tempting though for 4 mana.

I was running Hero of Bladehold last weekend, and it was absolutely amazing. I wound up casting it 7 times during the day: it won me 5 games on the spot, and it was killed twice (both in the mirror). One of the times it was killed was by Path, and the other required my opponent to sacrifice his board for Fireblast.

Assuming that your opponents do what is traditional against Zoo, they will spend all of their removal taking out your Nactl/Lavamancer/Goyf/KotR... by the time you hit 4 mana to drop Hero, they're out of removal.

[ivanpei]

I've been testing GSZ extensively, and that card is so good, its not funny. I'm not sure if you'd run it in big zoo though, it seems overcosted. If you want to get around balance, I'd suggest running 4 drops. I really dislike cards like Baneslayer, Ajani and Hero Of Bladehold, though they may be out of removal to deal with your final bomb in hand, they might still be sandbagging a force of will/counterspell after firespouting your board. IMO the best 4 drop other than the mighty elspeth is bloodbraid elf. You get a 3/2 haste + another threat/removal spell, which is ideal. Bloodbraid is the only card that's not stopped cold by a counterspell/removal spell.

[jandax]

Yeah but it doesn't have a lasting impact on the game like other fourdrops have, namely Elspeth. Unless Elspeth is Needled or Stifled or otherwise removed, she's 3 damage a turn or good for a 1/1, most importantly all in one card. BBE is a one shot mediocre creature (in Legacy) with an ability that creates card advantage.

Let's say you were playing against Big Zoo, what would you rather see them play against you, BBE into threat/removal/blank, or Elspeth pumping and jumping out of the gates?

[ivanpei]

My claim was 'other' than elspeth. Elspeth is still the best 4 drop in zoo. The 3rd and 4th 4 drop should be bb elf though. My power level chart is the following:

Elspeth
Bb Elf
Ajani v
Hero
Baneslayer

This is my 2 cents

[niknight]

Ivan,

God knows I'm a huge fan of BBE, and I've been advocating for more 4 drop creatures being played in Legacy. My preference when looking at a 4 drop spell in this format though is that it should essentially end the game if it's not answered immediately. Elspeth, Hero and AjaniV (to a lesser extent) do that. BBE definitely puts you in a good position sometimes (BBE -> KotR is amazing), but it also winds up being a 4 mana lightning bolt almost as often.

[ivanpei]

True, variance is a bitch. My line of thought is that you'd want the 4cc spell against blue decks like counterbalance etc. Therefore you'd want something that's absolutely beasting vs counterspells. You are right that against non-blue decks, cards like Hero and AjaniV are better as they 'consistently' have a bigger splash when they land. However in those MUs (eg, zoo mirror, goblins, DnT, rock etc), I think big zoo's monsters are well equipped already in that MU. However I may be wrong. AjaniV/BB's casting cost is also easier, as double white for hero is hard.

[Catitas]

True, variance is a bitch. My line of thought is that you'd want the 4cc spell against blue decks like counterbalance etc. Therefore you'd want something that's absolutely beasting vs counterspells. You are right that against non-blue decks, cards like Hero and AjaniV are better as they 'consistently' have a bigger splash when they land. However in those MUs (eg, zoo mirror, goblins, DnT, rock etc), I think big zoo's monsters are well equipped already in that MU. However I may be wrong. AjaniV/BB's casting cost is also easier, as double white for hero is hard.

Ajani vengeant is the second best 4 drop in big zoo, and if you consider BBE to be a must have vs countertop, landstill and other control decks try ajani you'll see the diference quite fast...
The point is simple planeswalkers are so hard to deal with, especially if your playing control decks... the sweepers only deal with creatures, besides you want the deck to be more resilient to sweepers (i even play fires/grove combo to be even more resilient to removal and again it's so good against control and aggro)...And when you play a planeswalker against them most of time is have force or its game, they're that ridiculous, although ajani isn't that much interesting in the mirror, elspeth is just insane...
As for Zenith i'm not a big fan of it, although i havent tested it...so i wont say its good or bad to have it...
As for baneslayer is still awesome against countertop (and still better than elf in that match) with the advantage that destroys mirrors and other aggro decks... and even if you want to keep thinking about the 4 drops Thrun, the last troll is even better than BBE...
Besides BBE makes you even more vulnerable to firespout...when flips qasalis, nobles, grims...and worse when he gives you a blank...I admit that sometimes his ridiculous when flips knights or goyfs but still not good enough...
As for hero its nice only when you're ahead in the game, when you're behind sucks so much, meaning he helps you win when you're already wining, but he doesnt help you when win you're losing...
As for thrun thats a powerhouse so good that i almost want cut the slayers but they still beat progenitus so i'll keep them, although if you are in a aggro meta dude just play it with stoneforge package so insane swords or jitte on him beating your opponent while hes holding his removal...

[Whippoorwill]

a BIG zoo made top 10 in Indianapolis legacy open with green sun's zenith, was it you?

Nope, was quite happy to see that though.


Thanks for the gratz man and I'll have a report and the changes I made since yesterday posted later today. But I will say this much, Green Sun's Zenith is amazing!!!!

Congrats on the finish! Looking forward to your report.

Re: BbE

If you know they're playing mass removal, its best to hold it if you have threats on the board. Playing BbE after a Firespout/Deed/etc makes recovery much faster and puts more pressure on your opponent since they know have 1 less mass removal spell at their disposal. I won't deny that the cascade flip can be less than stellar at times, but more often than not, I've been happy with my flips.

Zenith is good, but I think it's better suited for more toolbox builds (those that run a single Teeg main for example). I like that it fetches Goyf, but it becomes worse the longer the game goes since you'll have less and less creatures to tutor for.

Glad to hear Hero was tested and did well. Still don't like the double white though (Elspeth is just too good not to use). I'll likely try out Thrun this week as a 2 of.

[Philipp2293]

So, I took Catitas list from the page before as a base and made the following changes:

-2 Baneslayer Angel + 2 Green Suns Zenith
-1 Ajani Vengeant + 1 Thrun

I always found the Baneslayers too clunky, and at first wasn't too sure what to replace them with, but IMHO the flexibility the Zeniths offer definitely justify running them. Does anybody think a Dryad Arbor should replace another land in this case?

The Thrun is just an experiment, I'm thrilled to find out how he works out. Thoughts?

[Catitas]

So, I took Catitas list from the page before as a base and made the following changes:

-2 Baneslayer Angel + 2 Green Suns Zenith
-1 Ajani Vengeant + 1 Thrun

I always found the Baneslayers too clunky, and at first wasn't too sure what to replace them with, but IMHO the flexibility the Zeniths offer definitely justify running them. Does anybody think a Dryad Arbor should replace another land in this case?

The Thrun is just an experiment, I'm thrilled to find out how he works out. Thoughts?

Unless your playing Natural Order theres no need for dryad arbor, if you'll play thrun make sure you play stoneforge package too...

[Philipp2293]

Unless your playing Natural Order theres no need for dryad arbor, if you'll play thrun make sure you play stoneforge package too...

I have not included the arbor, and the Thrun hasn't arrived yet via mail, so for now it's 2 Ajanis, I play a small tourney today, maybe I'll write how it went.

[Rallye]

Played a few weeks ago a tournament with tis deck. Went terrible. Due to a mistake letting a basic forest home, and a resolve blood moon screwing me. Saw 2 times burnwith some creatures playing both 4 blood moon's main. Blood moon was overall a bad meta call because of lots off merfolk and elfcombo lists, but it worked well.... against me...

My current list looks like this:

2x kird ape(wanted some more creature 1 drops)
4x wild nacatl
3x grim lavamancer
3x knight of the reliquary
3x quasali pridemage
4x tarmogoyf

2x sylvan library
4x lightning helix(works really well with library. imo a must play with library)
4x path to exile
3x chain lightning
1x fireblast (more reach to finish off)
1x krosan grip(meta call)
2x elspeth(mid/lategame so good)

4x windswepth heath
4x wooded foothills
4x taiga
4x savannah
3x plateau
1x plain
1x forest
1x mountain

sideboard:

1x karakas
1x bokuja bog
3x red elemental blast
2x swords to plowshares
4x pyrostatic pillar (anti combo, and others with lot of search spells)
4x gaddock teeg (anti combo)

Now I'm just waiting for the next good moment to play Zoo, Cause i think now it isn't.
-~Rallye

[trivial_matters]

2x kird ape(wanted some more creature 1 drops)
4x wild nacatl
3x grim lavamancer
3x knight of the reliquary
3x quasali pridemage
4x tarmogoyf

2x sylvan library
4x lightning helix(works really well with library. imo a must play with library)
4x path to exile
3x chain lightning
1x fireblast (more reach to finish off)
1x krosan grip(meta call)
2x elspeth(mid/lategame so good)

4x windswepth heath
4x wooded foothills
4x taiga
4x savannah
3x plateau
1x plain
1x forest
1x mountain

sideboard:

1x karakas
1x bokuja bog
3x red elemental blast
2x swords to plowshares
4x pyrostatic pillar (anti combo, and others with lot of search spells)
4x gaddock teeg (anti combo)


One thing that strikes me as somewhat strange is the number of duals you're playing. I think it would be safe to cut some Taigas and Savannahs for one to two Horizon Canopies and move the Karakas main. The playset of Savannahs in particular is too much, I reckon. You can't sack them to Fireblast either.
Also, I'd play some Krosan Grips on the side and maybe a fourth Qasali Pridemage main. Lastly, Ethersworn Canonist is quite good against Elf Combo if you happen to run into it a lot.

[Tylertmk]

I don't really play legacy but I've thrown together the list below and would appreciate some feedback, haven't played it at all yet...

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of Reliquary
2 Elspeth
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire

4 Mesa
4 Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Plateau
3 Grove of Burnwillows
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy

I'm curious if anyones toyed with punishing fire? Seems like some decks just cannot beat it; goblins, merfolk, death and taxes...also nice synergy with swords. I'm also undecided on wasteland, seems nice when I can still curve out with hierarch, but I'm concerned with mana issues. To solve this I'm running 24 land and essentially the wastelands replace spells in the deck...I'm not sure what spells I would replace them with anyway. I'm also not sold on lavamancer, but I'd really like 10 1 drops and I'm not sure anything else is better. Obviously combo MU is pretty awful G1 and the SB would address this. Let me know about any suggestions you might have.

[Tinefol]

If you're playing Grove/Fire, drop Lavamancer. They're overlapping. If you're looking for another one-drop, there's not much to choose.
Loam Lion/Kird Ape suck, Steppe Lynx is not for this deck, so maybe Figure of Destiny? Lets you dump excessive mana and is fine lategame.
Anyway, I'm trying to run 2 GSZ instead. Not a one drop, but a lot of flexiblity

If you're playing Grove/Fire, run 4/4. Wastelands are nice, but I'm not sure they do any good in Grove/Fire build. I run 2 Sylvan Library in you 23-24 land spot, instead of Wastelands.

[lordofthepit]

If you're playing Grove/Fire, drop Lavamancer. They're overlapping. If you're looking for another one-drop, there's not much to choose.
Loam Lion/Kird Ape suck, Steppe Lynx is not for this deck, so maybe Figure of Destiny? Lets you dump excessive mana and is fine lategame.
Anyway, I'm trying to run 2 GSZ instead. Not a one drop, but a lot of flexiblity

If you're playing Grove/Fire, run 4/4. Wastelands are nice, but I'm not sure they do any good in Grove/Fire build. I run 2 Sylvan Library in you 23-24 land spot, instead of Wastelands.

I agree with dropping Lavamancer and adding Figure. You want to run more mana if you're running Grove/Fire (I ran 23 + 3 Hierarch) because you have a strong late game and can dump that mana on recurring Fires. Figure gives you something else to dump excess mana into if you don't have Fires. I also strongly advocate a 4/4 split if you're going this route.

In the end, I think the manabase was a bit too shabby. Even though I ran 23 lands, I found myself without white mana too often (even running 10 fetches, 2 Plateau, 2 Savannah, a Plains, and a Karakas. Plus, sometimes you get hit by Wasteland and your Nacatl suddenly becomes a 1/1, while you're giving them life just to play your cards off Grove. I decided to scrap that build for a more consistently fast one.

[blue_mage]

I agree with dropping Lavamancer and adding Figure. You want to run more mana if you're running Grove/Fire (I ran 23 + 3 Hierarch) because you have a strong late game and can dump that mana on recurring Fires. Figure gives you something else to dump excess mana into if you don't have Fires. I also strongly advocate a 4/4 split if you're going this route.

In the end, I think the manabase was a bit too shabby. Even though I ran 23 lands, I found myself without white mana too often (even running 10 fetches, 2 Plateau, 2 Savannah, a Plains, and a Karakas. Plus, sometimes you get hit by Wasteland and your Nacatl suddenly becomes a 1/1, while you're giving them life just to play your cards off Grove. I decided to scrap that build for a more consistently fast one.

I'm currently playing BIG zoo and I'm been pondering if Grove/Fire is the real deal. I've ask a friend of mine you used to play big zoo and told me its slow?

Anyhow I'd like to know your inputs as to why it is really that good to merit MD space for big zoo buils. I'm currently playing with arc trail and grim lavamancer so I guess those are the cards I'll take out for grove/fire.

thanks in advance for the those who will respond:smile:

[Tinefol]

Played two tournaments with the following list:

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Worked like a charm. Went 3-0-2id in swiss both times.

[lordofthepit]

Played two tournaments with the following list:

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Worked like a charm. Went 3-0-2id in swiss both times.

Glad to see it's working out for you. I may want to revisit this at some point.

[blue_mage]

Glad to see it's working out for you. I may want to revisit this at some point.

Just like to ask why is it you choose to lessen the number of savannah's over the taiga's? You have a SET of burnwillows which produces the same mana as taiga?

By the way I like you list I might add thrull replace 1pc qasali. and maybe squizz in SOLS.

And just curious in which match ups did you get to draw? thanks:smile:

[Tinefol]

Sometimes I hate that lone Savannah. Sometimes I need it. This deck really needs all the Red mana it can produce, since its so heavy on Fire. The more non-red mana you have - the tougher it is to work with Punishing Fire. And Hierarchs provide Green and White just fine.

@blue_mage, well these were the intentional draws, so I don't even remember. As for real match ups, I've played against BG Pox, 2xMerfolk, Aggro Loam, CB/Top, BGW Rock.

I'd advise against Thrun, 5 mana for 4/4 guy is hardly impressive.

[Philipp2293]

If you play in a heavy Ux meta, I'd run 1-2 Thrun. They just can't handle him. Apart from that, I really like Tinefol's list, my build is nearly the same.

[blue_mage]

Sometimes I hate that lone Savannah. Sometimes I need it. This deck really needs all the Red mana it can produce, since its so heavy on Fire. The more non-red mana you have - the tougher it is to work with Punishing Fire. And Hierarchs provide Green and White just fine.

@blue_mage, well these were the intentional draws, so I don't even remember. As for real match ups, I've played against BG Pox, 2xMerfolk, Aggro Loam, CB/Top, BGW Rock.

I'd advise against Thrun, 5 mana for 4/4 guy is hardly impressive.

@Tinefol: thanks for the responses. Congrats for the good finishes. I'll try to test your list I might just add karakas replacing 1pc of canopy :)

If it’s ok with you I'd like to see your SB as well?

My current SB looks like this.

2 pcs mindbreak trap
2pcs REB
2pcs enlightened tutor
2pcs e. canonist
1pc gaddock teeg
2pcs tormod's crypt
1pc bojoka bog
1pc Dueling grounds
1pc engineered explosives
1pc vexing shusher

I have a lot of SB's for combo even though it’s not the meta in our place it’s usually the decks you get to face on the top tables during the later rounds.

I'm still not sure if removing krosan grip in my SB is right but so far counterbalance decks are not that prevalent

[Tinefol]

I'd go as this:

-1 Vexing Shusher (weeaak)
-1 EE (why'd you ever want it - against goblin tokens?)
-1 Dueling Grounds (tribal should be a bye already, and you're better with grave hate against ichorid)
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Canonist (you already run tutors)

+2-3 Grip
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (good for tutor package)
+1 Mindbreak Trap (2 are a bit random)

Not sure if Control is present in your meta. If so, I'd probalby run 1-2 Ajani Vengeant.

[unicoerner]

There once was a card Troll Ascet, which is imo the same Thrull, but maybe the one mana cheaper makes the difference. He isn't Legendary if this makes a difference.

Why do you rate Thrull that muczh higher?

[Whippoorwill]

He can't be countered and is also +1/+2 over Ascetic.

Being uncounterable and untargetable is a big thing against CounterTop. The 4 toughness also helps against Firespout.

[myselves]

I attended with the following List in a local tournament with 40 particpants:

3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
1 Horizon canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire (I were not able/willing to get a 2nd Mesa)
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Maze of Ith

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Wild nacatl

2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, KE
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix

/sb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod

2:1 vs a BG Rockish build (Glissa, Equips, Phyrexian Crusader Maze of Ith and so on, I lost the 2nd game to 3 Maze + setup)
2:0 vs Dredge (he didn't keep a good hand game 1 in my eyes so I was able to race him, the 2nd was easier due to my hate)
1:2 vs CBT (I lost game 1 to CB without any setup, won game 2 und lost game 3 to another blind CB and my own missplay because I tried to play Elspeth, his CB reveals his own Else and I forgot that the Goyfs are growing und I got 1 lifepoint to less to win this)
2:0 vs DarkHorizons/Junk (he simply had thrown away game 1 and was neither able to keep up with my threats in game 2 nor to screw me, because I kept a my first 7 with 3 fetchlands, Canopy and Taiga)
2:1 vs Dredge (he won Game 1 by a 2nd Turn Iona on red and a lot of zombies, I won the following games by burning his outlets, droping a Knight und searching for Bog)
0:2 vs TES (lost game 1 to a 1st turn kill, game 2 I had to decide to play either a Teeg or a Null Rod on Turn 2, I went for the Null Rod and he went for Ritual into Ritual into AN into victory)

[troopatroop]

I would contest that Chain Lightning/Lightning Helix/Path to Exile are all lackluster in today's meta. They're too often weak or dead, consider the rounds that were lost above. These cards are bad against Countertop and Storm, and while 16 removal is great against some decks, Legacy is a very broad format. The difficulty in playing this deck is dodging your bad matches, something you've got no control over. The issue is, that Aggro Loam handles the same decks Zoo does (Tribal, Counterbalance, Landstill), most even better than Zoo. This deck goes faster, so combo matches are marginally better (Excluding Chalice), but they're not favorable. Is that enough of a reason to justify the deck?

I like Tinefol's list the most. Punishing Fire/Grove is nuts in the Tribal matchups you weaken by going "Big". I approve.

[myselves]

The issue is, that Aggro Loam handles the same decks Zoo does (Tribal, Counterbalance, Landstill), most even better than Zoo. This deck goes faster, so combo matches are marginally better (Excluding Chalice), but they're not favorable. Is that enough of a reason to justify the deck?


Canadian, Dredge, Merfolk are better to play against with BigZoo than with Loam ;)

[Esper3k]

Kemper Pogue playing Big Zoo just beat Dan Signorini playing Team America in R7 to go 7-0 so far!

Pogue's running the GSZ build.

And it looks like he can double draw into the T8!

[makochman]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Established Decks? After all, it's a very strong deck that's had a lot of tournament success. Most BIG Zoo lists are different enough from "normal" Zoo to warrant a separate thread. IMO this is long overdue.

[Esper3k]

I would second that.

In the past 2 SCG tournaments, we have 2 Top 16's (both by Stanley Smith placing 10th in both) and a T8 finish by Kemper Pogue.

[Misplayer]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Established Decks? After all, it's a very strong deck that's had a lot of tournament success. Most BIG Zoo lists are different enough from "normal" Zoo to warrant a separate thread. IMO this is long overdue.

For what it's worth, there's a good deal of Big Zoo discussion occuring in the DTB Zoo thread.

[Dragon_Whelp]

Alright, tried to post this in the Zoo thread, but I saw that there is a different thread for this. So here's my list. I originally played Zoo, but I felt as if the deck was simply not strong enough in the midgame, and I wanted more control over the board. So I found a Big Zoo list from Tokyo's Eternal Festival last year, and it won. I was intrigued, so I cooked up my own version. Here:


Lands (21):

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
2x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy

Creatures (27):

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Mirran Crusader

Others (12):

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Path to Exile
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sylvan Library
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:

1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Barbarian Ring
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
3x Krosan Grip
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring

I just ordered a playset of Green Sun's Zenith, but I'm not really sure about what to cut for it. Mirran Crusader is in there for 3 reasons:

1. Pro-Goyf and black removal.
2. Doesn't die to Perish.
3. If equipped with Jitte, can swing for 20 damage after hitting anything once.

So those two shouldn't go. Also, I am absolutely terrified of combo, and I'm not sure how to combat it. The Leylines are useful, but vulnerable. So any ideas on the sideboard?

[Esper3k]

Fast combo is always going to be our worst matchup since we don't really disrupt an opponent via discard or countermagic. Im seriously considering removing almost all sb cards for it from the board.

I'd cut the Mirran Crusaders first. As a 2-of you aren't going to consistently be able to get them plus Jitte together, which is the only time they're good.

Mirran Crusader's Protection colors are significantly worse than the Phyrexian Crusader's. Pro black is fairly irrelevant because of the general lack of black decks out there combined with black removal tends to not target the creature anyways (Diabolic Edict, Gatekeeper, Deed, etc.). Prot Green is also fairly irrelevant because it just turns your Crusader into a wall (not like he's going to kill the 4/5 Goyf). Being vulnerable to all the burn and white removal out there is pretty bad.

I'd also run 4x StP instead of the 2/2 split you're using. Decks with Wasteland just don't want to give opponents lands back.

[Dragon_Whelp]

I dunno... The Leylines do wonders against combo, actually.

The reason I don't have more Crusaders is two-fold. First, I only own two at the moment. Second... Green Sun's Zenith. I need to wrk that into the deck, and they are anti-synergetic. And yes, the pro-colours are much worse than the Phyrexian one - heck, despite the Phyrexian being unplayable with Infect and all, he's still going for more than this guy. So maybe you're right. However, there are few one shot kills as unexpected as this one. But not very effecient, though.

[Esper3k]

Well, depends on the type of combo. Against Storm combo, they certainly help, but only if you get it in your opener. Even if you open with it, they can just bounce your Leyline with something like Chain and go off. Leyline is useless against Emrakul or Progenitus, the other type of common combo you'll run across these days. Zoo sucks against combo because we don't naturally run anything that disrupts them. Even from the board, you really need to get 2+ pieces of hate out to even have a chance at stopping.

I understand your fascination with Mirran Crusader (I've been trying to build a deck around it myself, but still not satisfied with it), but I really don't think Zoo is the deck for him. In our deck, it's just a 2/2 for 3 mana that doesn't really do much defensively or offensively. The one shot kill with him just isn't that fast nor consistent. You need to get both him and Jitte together (in the build you posted, you're only running 2-ofs of each). Second, you need to get him down and have him not die to basically any removal spell. Third, you need to get him equipped with the Jitte and swing. THEN, you need to get him to swing again and connect while having at least 3 Jitte counters (first strike damage hits as an 8/8, pump again, regular strike damage hits as a 12/12 for 20 damage). When it happens, it's awesome, but I think unless a deck is built around trying to do this, it's going to happen very infrequently.

On the note of Phyrexian Crusader: His Infect isn't really a big deal if you're swinging with equipment as well. He's a 3 turn clock with a Jitte vs the 2 turn clock of the Mirran, but again has ridiculously better defensive powers. Really, the only creature right now that he's afraid of is a 4/5+ Goyf. Anything smaller than 3 power isn't a real worry for that guy.

[Dragon_Whelp]

I understand your fascination with Mirran Crusader (I've been trying to build a deck around it myself, but still not satisfied with it), but I really don't think Zoo is the deck for him. In our deck, it's just a 2/2 for 3 mana that doesn't really do much defensively or offensively. The one shot kill with him just isn't that fast nor consistent. You need to get both him and Jitte together (in the build you posted, you're only running 2-ofs of each). Second, you need to get him down and have him not die to basically any removal spell. Third, you need to get him equipped with the Jitte and swing. THEN, you need to get him to swing again and connect while having at least 3 Jitte counters (first strike damage hits as an 8/8, pump again, regular strike damage hits as a 12/12 for 20 damage). When it happens, it's awesome, but I think unless a deck is built around trying to do this, it's going to happen very infrequently.

He has Double Strike, so he gets twice the amount of Jitte counters, because he hits twice. So he only needs to hit something once to be able to swing for lethal. In addition, I have Elspeth in the deck, who turns him into a ridiculous 10/10 flier for a turn. And 8 cards with Exalted which are also insane with him.

The most noteworthy thing about the Crusader is simply that it's the first efficient Double Striker that has come out of Wizards. It's not as powerful as Goyf or Knight, by no means. But with all the pumping effects in the deck, it's still a force to contend with.


On the note of Phyrexian Crusader: His Infect isn't really a big deal if you're swinging with equipment as well. He's a 3 turn clock with a Jitte vs the 2 turn clock of the Mirran, but again has ridiculously better defensive powers. Really, the only creature right now that he's afraid of is a 4/5+ Goyf. Anything smaller than 3 power isn't a real worry for that guy.

Just a correction, which the Goyf example shows that you were aware of, but others who read this might not be: He is not afraid of power 3 creatures either due to his First Strike, which means that they'll be 1/1 by the time they are going to damage him.

[Esper3k]

Yes, in my previous post you can see that with the Mirran Crusader that I make a note that he has to swing in for a turn, and then next turn he can swing for letal. You even use 1 counter off your Jitte and still be able to swing for lethal. However, if your opponent is smart, he can throw an X/2 guy under the bus so that your Crusader only gets 2 Jitte counters instead of 4. If you're counting on needing Elspeth as well, that makes the entire combo even less likely...

Just a point of history: The Boros Swiftblade saw competitive Constructed play before Mirran Crusader did. There was an Extended deck a few years ago when Planeshift was still legal called Gaea's Might Get There which pretty much tried to kill you on T3 off of a Swiftblade plus pump spells like Gaea's Might. Dragon Stompy also has played Rakdos Pit Dragon for pretty much the entire existence of that deck.

[ivanpei]

I played a punishing fire list over the weekend in play testing sessions. Punishing fire is RIDICULOUS. I tested against affinity and IMO, the combo was the MVP. With so much aggro and equipment, more removal= good. It took down everything in response to equip and was just all around solid. I also noticed that by swapping wastelands for Groves, my manabase went from reasonably solid to rock solid. Since there is so much tempo and wastelands in the meta now, this deck cannot afford to be screwed on mana.

There will always be alot of tribal/ aggro and big zoo somewhat surrendered burn for more big threats. Punishing fire is both a decent removal spell and insane late game gas. It's like a super grim lavamancer. That said, I play both Lavamancer and Punishing fire. I want at least 11 1 drops in this deck so it's 4 kitties, 4 Nobles and 3 Lavamancers. Another thing I love about the fires combo is that it is very hard to disrupt. Counterspells/discard all don't touch the combo. Wasteland on grove is not a big deal as KOTR can looks for more while Punishing Fire still combos with STP. I use every drop of mana with the combo online and I just power past most decks. For those who have not tried the combo, you should. IMO fires-grove should be a must play in Big Zoo.

[lordofthepit]

I played a punishing fire list over the weekend in play testing sessions. Punishing fire is RIDICULOUS. I tested against affinity and IMO, the combo was the MVP. With so much aggro and equipment, more removal= good. It took down everything in response to equip and was just all around solid. I also noticed that by swapping wastelands for Groves, my manabase went from reasonably solid to rock solid. Since there is so much tempo and wastelands in the meta now, this deck cannot afford to be screwed on mana.

There will always be alot of tribal/ aggro and big zoo somewhat surrendered burn for more big threats. Punishing fire is both a decent removal spell and insane late game gas. It's like a super grim lavamancer. That said, I play both Lavamancer and Punishing fire. I want at least 11 1 drops in this deck so it's 4 kitties, 4 Nobles and 3 Lavamancers. Another thing I love about the fires combo is that it is very hard to disrupt. Counterspells/discard all don't touch the combo. Wasteland on grove is not a big deal as KOTR can looks for more while Punishing Fire still combos with STP. I use every drop of mana with the combo online and I just power past most decks. For those who have not tried the combo, you should. IMO fires-grove should be a must play in Big Zoo.

I've had a lot of luck with Fires/Grove in Zoo, and I swear by it. I don't run Lavamancer, but it's something I want to revisit.

Do you have problems getting owned by sweepers like Firespout, Wrath of God, etc. with so many fragile 1 drops? Also, in what matchups do you think Lavamancer gives you more game than Stoneforge Mystic?

[ivanpei]

Equipment-Mystic is good against aggro, so is lavamancer. Both are similar in some respects. What I like about lavamancer is that he is "mana efficient". Though he does the same thing as punishing fire late game, he is a "must kill now" for 1 mana. Somewhat similar to mother of runes, if you don't kill him, he is a pain in the ass in the long run. He gets plowed/forced and that's a very good deal for 1 mana. As for Stoneforge mystic, he is very mana intensive. Punishing fire is also very mana intensive so they conflict is some regards. Punishing + Grim= excellent. I can have an engine to take down even 5/6 Tarmogoyfs or 6/6 KOTRs.With 5 lands + 2 Fires + Grim= 6 damage a turn if you stockpile the Fires. OR 6 Lands + 1 Fire + 1 Grim also = 6 damage.

As for the firespout argument, I guess having GSZ/Stoneforge is better in that regard as it's not "all in" but how many decks play firespout? Countertop is very rare, and not very many other decks play it. I just feel that this deck needs to remain "aggro" by having at least the minimal amount of 1 drops. You still need to have some ability to race NO-Show or other Show And Tell/Land Strategies. I still stand by the fact that a good curve is important to stay some what aggro. BTW, this decks combo MU is abysmal. I know people are trying the GSZ strategies with Teeq, but it's still pretty damn bad. GSZ is IMO ok in this deck, but it's mana intensive too and I believe punishing fire is a bigger bomb that provides inevitability.

GSZ never struck me as good in zoo, it gives you 5 Teeqs MD, but most of the time it's too slow or gets nabbed by thoughtseize/duress. Surrendering on the combo MU is somewhat the most rational choice. I'd probably play some kind of enlightened tutor board against Combo. Being able to protect yourself from discard by response -> tutor to top of library has been working well for me. Mindbreak trap is crap, it'll get ripped from your hand before you do anything useful. The best options are the bears + challice/nullrods.

[lordofthepit]

Equipment-Mystic is good against aggro, so is lavamancer. Both are similar in some respects. What I like about lavamancer is that he is "mana efficient". Though he does the same thing as punishing fire late game, he is a "must kill now" for 1 mana. Somewhat similar to mother of runes, if you don't kill him, he is a pain in the ass in the long run. He gets plowed/forced and that's a very good deal for 1 mana. As for Stoneforge mystic, he is very mana intensive. Punishing fire is also very mana intensive so they conflict is some regards. Punishing + Grim= excellent. I can have an engine to take down even 5/6 Tarmogoyfs or 6/6 KOTRs.With 5 lands + 2 Fires + Grim= 6 damage a turn if you stockpile the Fires. OR 6 Lands + 1 Fire + 1 Grim also = 6 damage.

As for the firespout argument, I guess having GSZ/Stoneforge is better in that regard as it's not "all in" but how many decks play firespout? Countertop is very rare, and not very many other decks play it. I just feel that this deck needs to remain "aggro" by having at least the minimal amount of 1 drops. You still need to have some ability to race NO-Show or other Show And Tell/Land Strategies. I still stand by the fact that a good curve is important to stay some what aggro. BTW, this decks combo MU is abysmal. I know people are trying the GSZ strategies with Teeq, but it's still pretty damn bad. GSZ is IMO ok in this deck, but it's mana intensive too and I believe punishing fire is a bigger bomb that provides inevitability.

GSZ never struck me as good in zoo, it gives you 5 Teeqs MD, but most of the time it's too slow or gets nabbed by thoughtseize/duress. Surrendering on the combo MU is somewhat the most rational choice. I'd probably play some kind of enlightened tutor board against Combo. Being able to protect yourself from discard by response -> tutor to top of library has been working well for me. Mindbreak trap is crap, it'll get ripped from your hand before you do anything useful. The best options are the bears + challice/nullrods.

I agree with what you said, but wanted to point out two additional things:

1) Equipment package is even better at racing NO-Show/Show and Tell than Grim Lavamancer. I feel Big Zoo has a great game against Show and Tell->Emrakul because you essentially have five uncounterable answers (drop one of your KotRs or a Karakas off SnT). Progenitus is a problem if they get it early enough, but fortunately, slapping the Sword on any of your creatures besides Noble Hierarch or Stoneforge Mystic will probably win the race.

2) Zoo doesn't have a miserable combo matchup overall, just against Storm combo (Tendrils and High Tide) among the frequently played decks, as well as fringe decks like Belcher, Cephalid Breakfest, etc., which I've never faced before, but even then, you still have a chance to win--I'm actually 3-0 against TES and 1-0 against High Tide since switching to Big Zoo, although I acknowledge I've certainly been very lucky to get there. I don't think Reanimator is a terrible matchup either, even without significant gravehate; I consider it about 50-50, and personally, am 3-0 against the deck since it's been banned. Dredge is unfavorable, but would be improved with gravehate or Lavamancer or Stoneforge.

But where Zoo shines is against the combo decks that are reliant on sticking a small creature like Goblin Welder, Painter's Servant, Metalworker, or Nettle Sentinel. Even against Natural Order combo, your opponent still has to stick a green creature and then resolve Natural Order, which requires 5 mana if he wants to do so without passing priority (1 for a Hierarch or to get a "sick" Dryad Arbor).

I'll test Lavamancer FWIW. Sometimes, without an aggressive draw, even tribal decks can clock you before you can profitably use Punishing Fires.

[ivanpei]

You are right. Especially your final point. If i dont open with a 1 drop, I Find I can still fall to tribal that leads with vial. It's somewhat overkill to play grim and fires. I only play it over stoneforge because it fits the curve well since neither are good at racing Storm. Grim is active turn 2 at torching mana dudes for Natural Order and at least swings everyturn (even better with a t2 pridemage). I just feel something is very wrong in zoo when I'm going t1 land go. I want to retain being able to get out of the gates with all guns blazing. Im also not fond of equipment in a deck w/o mother of runes. Removal in response to equip is a disaster. Cheers!

[Tinefol]

I felt that running a lavamancer in a Pfire Zoo was a redundant thing. In order to have the additional 1 drop, I simply run Dryad Arbor for acceleration with GSZ (I run 3 as of now). It works.

[ivanpei]

I felt that running a lavamancer in a Pfire Zoo was a redundant thing. In order to have the additional 1 drop, I simply run Dryad Arbor for acceleration with GSZ (I run 3 as of now). It works.

GSZ arbor seems like a pretty good compromise. Will give it a try. Cheers.

[supachai]

Just wanted to reaffirm everything said about Fires/Grove. It destroys Affinity. That's all I tested against though. I've taken on Lavamancer and ran Zenith/Arbor for 1-drops 9-11. It works well enough, was never spectacular. I like Zenith for fetching up Knight though. It fetches Groves, gives us extra mana to work with Fires, and in late game kills in 1-2 hits with Elspeth + exalted, even with all the lifegain from Swords and Grove.

I really like Fires Zoo. I always hated how I would run out of things to do with Zoo before. Fires makes sure I use every last bit of mana.

[Tinefol]

An update on my list:

2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Punishing Fire
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt

[Philipp2293]

Can this please be moved to established already? Thanks.

[lordofthepit]

Huge bump.

There has been some discussion of Mental Misstep in Zoo. The consensus seems to be that it's not the correct card for Zoo, and I am inclined to agree for the faster versions. Those decks have a pretty terrible mid-to-late game, so they want to end the game as quickly as possible. Using Mental Misstep as a tempo play on a Brainstorm or something buys you one turn, but for Cat Sligh, that usually means maybe one attack with a Wild Nacatl and hopefully a chance to rip a Bolt off the top for the win. Or it might mean your Wild Nacatl or Steppe Lynx doesn't get Plowed. But that's about as good as it gets, barring the occasional but rare blowout situation (i.e. on your Dredge opponent's only discard outlet, on the Ritual that the storm deck needed to go off, on the High Tide that got cast without protection on Turn 4, etc.). In a deck with a more narrow focus that wants to capitalize on its strong early game, Mental Misstep seems to be pretty weak. (One exception: those super-fast Steppe Lynx/Reckless Charge glass cannon versions that get absolutely owned by a turn 2 Swords to Plowshares can probably benefit from Mental Misstep, as they're very similar in nature to the B/G infect deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21747_Building_A_Legacy_Killing_Your_Opponent_On_Turn_2_With_Glistener_Elf.html) that Drew Levin threw out there. Of course, I can't see myself ever taking those decks to a serious tournament.)

However, I think the situation is different in Big Zoo, especially the Rubin versions. It may not be worthy of inclusion after we find out how the new metagame looks, but it's at least worth evaluating. There are the following differences that make Mental Misstep stronger in Big Zoo than in other builds:
1) Big Zoo's damage is more "backloaded". Big Zoo can reliably play something like Turn 1 Noble Hierarch, Turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary, Turn 3 Tarmogoyf + Tarmogoyf. In other words, in comparison with Cat Sligh, its goldfish is slower because it can't come out of the gates with a sequence like "Attack for 5 on Turn 2; untap, Attack for 6, Bolt-Bolt-Fireblast". On the other hand, Big Zoo may not deal very much damage until Turn 3 or 4, where it might have over 12 power of creature on the board. Many combo decks in the format have a fundamental turn of 2 or 3. If a Mental Misstep delays them by one turn, as it will often do when hitting a cantrip, Big Zoo can more easily capitalize on that.
2) Big Zoo "invests" more into its creatures than do faster builds, and Mental Misstep protects against the most commonly played removal spells in the format. Against Cat Sligh, an opponent might be under enough pressure to use his Swords against a Steppe Lynx. Against Big Zoo, he'll likely be saving it for your double-exalted Tarmogoyfs or KotRs. Mental Misstep is a nice option to protect your creatures, even late in the game when it becomes a war of attrition.
3) Big Zoo has a stronger mid-to-late game that allows it to tolerate poor topdecks. Bad topdecks are never fun, and while it's important to pick cards that are strong in all phases of the game, all cards are to some extent situational. Sure, it's not great to rip a Mental Misstep when you really needed 3 damage to the dome, but it's not like a creature or a Path to Exile would have helped either. However, Big Zoo runs cards that are stronger in the late game, as well as card advantage engines like planeswalkers and Punishing Fire combo, which help to mitigate the damage of a poor topdeck. Moreover, because it runs stronger mid-to-late game cards, it has a longer window of opportunity to win. In other words, Cat Sligh often needs to rip a burn on Turn 4 or 5, or its opponent stabilizes and puts the game away; Big Zoo is less committed to that plan.
4) The few of us that are running Punishing Fires don't really tend to "run out" of burn anyway, so that's less of an issue when using the card as removal.

With that being said, how would Mental Misstep fare against most of the other top decks in the format? This would come at the cost of the weakest cards in your deck, which is obviously different for each list (in my case, it's Chain Lightning or Lightning Helix).
- Goblins: Terrible. I'd much rather have more burn in this matchup, unless it's to counter Aether Vial on turn 1, and even then, only marginally so.
- Merfolk: See above. But note that both of those decks are really good matchups in Game 1 anyway, before they sideboard in a bazillion hate cards. I'd rather hedge my bets against the rest of the format in Game 1 and take out 4 Mental Missteps for better cards in Games 2 and 3.
- Storm Combo/High Tide: Mental Misstep is significantly better. This is still a bad matchup, but not as poor as before, and can be won with more help from the sideboard and with some luck, the latter of which has been a very successful plan for me. :laugh:
- Elves: Mental Misstep is slightly better against Aggro Elves and significantly better against Combo Elves. I have found the key in this matchup is to get your removal engine (Lavamancer or Jitte, possibly Punishing Fires, which is often too slow) online before they can go off. Since they have so many one drops, Mental Misstep is always live, and in this case, being able to "remove" their creature and feed the graveyard without even using mana helps a lot. This also prevents them from getting a single use out of Heritage Druid, and stopping Glimpse of Nature cold is just gravy. Note that this was a good matchup for faster Zoo builds with more burn, but a slightly unfavorable one for Big Zoo.
- Dredge: Absolutely amazing. This shuts down Breakthrough for 1, Careful Study, Tireless Tribe, Putrid Imp, and Cabal Therapy. In other words, if you have Mental Misstep in your opening hand, they are simply not dredging until turn 3. There are three exceptions: LED, which opens them to blowout from gravehate in Games 2 and 3; draw-discard-dredge, which is undesirable against a deck with a fast clock and which isn't even an option if they need to mull; and discarding to Firestorm as a cost in Games 2 and 3, but at least Mental Misstep protects your army from getting Wrathed. So this usually slows them down at least a turn, and probably even more than that if they don't have a second discard outlet. If you're running Wastelands, Mental Misstep on their discard outlet followed by wasting their mana source is probably GG with how few land they run, since they would need a second discard outlet, a second mana source, and a dredger in hand to do anything at all.
- Reanimator: Very strong. Like Dredge, Reanimator looks for very specific cards in its opening hand (land, fatty, discard outlet, and reanimate effect, with Entomb doing work of both a fatty and discard outlet), so it has to mulligan aggressively. Mental Misstep shuts down all of its discard outlets as well as Reanimate and its cantrips. Even if they have redundant cards, delaying them one turn is a huge deal in this matchup.
- Black based aggro (Deadguy Ale/Eva Green/Junk). Probably weaker. I'd usually rather have an extra burn spell or creature here, but being able to stop Swords to Plowshares on your Goyf or KotR is pretty big too. Stopping their Thoughtseize or Inquisition usually isn't the strongest play, but that's an option here as well. Sensei's Divining Top isn't usually relevant because you're usually putting a lot of pressure on them, but in topdeck mode, it can put them far ahead, and now we have an answer. This is a pretty good matchup to begin with though.
- Tempo builds (Team America/New Horizons/Canadian Threshold). Stronger. These decks usually have a ton of one-drops, so there will always be a target, and the most crippling one is an early Stifle, which we now have some protection against. They're also the most likely decks to run their own Mental Missteps, and it is imperative that our Paths/Swords resolve considering how low their threat density is, so it helps to have our own MMs. Extra creatures can be nice against them too, but extra bolts are usually not useful because most of their creatures have a huge ass or have shroud.
- Countertop. Uncertain, but probably better. On one hand, their Counterbalances can hit your Mental Missteps, but they'll hit most of the cards you would consider cutting anyway (besides Green Sun's Zenith, which is amazing in this matchup). However, countering their Sensei's Divining Top (or even Brainstorm) is terrific and prevents you from getting locked out. Most of these builds also run Swords to Plowshares. There are plenty of targets in this matchup, the only problem is making sure you're able to use MM before they setup the lock.
- Bant Aggro decks. Better. Most of these decks run cantrips, Noble Hierarchs, Swords to Plowshares, and/or GSZ for 0, so there's always a good target to be had. Being able to prevent them from accelerating on turn 1 without having to tap out for your own burn spell is pretty important, as is protecting your creatures. Ditto for being able to prevent outlets for Natural Order without having to slow down your own clock.
- Show and Tell. Unsure. There aren't a lot of targets in this matchup besides their cantrips. Unlike Storm combo, I don't personally play these decks very often, so I'm unsure how important cantrips are to SnT decks in setting up their combo. It's probably stronger than playing extra creatures, because those creatures will seldom matter by the time they play Show and Tell. It's probably weaker than something like Price of Progress or Fireblast though, which speeds up your clock tremendously (but Big Zoo decks don't tend to run those two cards anyway). If they need to cantrip into one of their combo pieces, MM is probably pretty good, because buying a turn is very strong; but if they already have their combo pieces, or if they have multiple cantrips that they can cast on turns 1 and 2 for their turn 3 Show and Tell, then it probably isn't enough.
- Affinity and Forgemaster combo. Mental Misstep is absolutely terrible here. But AFAIK, every Zoo deck runs at least 4 sideboard cards against these decks anyway, and the rest of our cards are pretty good against these decks, so at least the choice of what to cut becomes very straightforward.
- Painter combo. It counters their Tops, Brainstorms, Red Blasts, Grindstones, and Goblin Welders, while being susceptible to their Red Blasts. I think it's still pretty strong because their most important card by far is Painter's Servant, and you want to use all the instant removal at your disposal to get rid of it. This inevitably involves trading your removal for their Blasts, so I wouldn't say MM's susceptibility to REB is a dealbreaker here, especially since it gives you a zero-mana card they have to deal with while going off. Moreover, after sideboarding, they may go for the Emrakul plan, and since MM at least hits Top and Brainstorm, it is solid against both of their attacks.

I think it's an upgrade against enough of the metagame, and that there's at least a logical "side out" plan in the matchups where it sucks, that I will be trying Mental Misstep out.

[Tinefol]

My biggest problem with Misstep so far is what to cut for it, even if you're willing to make the cut. I just can't find the place, I don't want to cut any creatures for it, I certainly don't want to cut the removal cards, and what's left? My list hasn't changed much from the above post (and won me a BOM 5 trial in 45men tournament) and the other possible spells to cutare 2xGSZ, 2xLibrary and 2xElspeth.
And among these, the only spell that I find cuttable (in a certain metagame) is Elspeth. You're running Chain Lightnings/Helixes instead of these, so I guess you have some things to cut.

But this is exactly what makes you _less_ vulnerable to opposing missteps. And right now I think I'm far more concerned about our deck's vulnerability to MM than about how to squeeze it in. I believe its not much vulnerable, except maybe against some tempo strategies.

Your analysis, I believe is more or less correct, but I just don't think its justifiable to run it. I think the cards I run are better than both burn and missteps against Midrange (Junk/Bant/CBtop), and the real upgrade comes from Ichorid, Storm Combo, High Tide, Elves (and most of non storm combo is an okay match as is, I'm not really afraid of Aluren, Food Chain or Painter or w/e) and Reanimator (haven't seen one _forever_). I think these decks are marginal enough even now, and they're certainly going to be hit with an MM hysteria (both with people generally stopping to play them and just being knocked out in first rounds). As is I just relegate my sideboard solely for these matches. I also believe I got it lined out quite nicely as of now:

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Serenity
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Null Rod // JUST AWESOME!
1 Krosan Grip // probably gong to switch for Oblivion Ring. CB/Top is gone
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loaming Shaman

So turning back, the only thing I'm slightly worried about are tempo strategies. I believe we have an upshot right now. MM might change it. On other hand, they're cutting some spells for it, and that means that they're probably not hitting us with Spell Snare/Daze/Spell Pierce, opting to counter the STP or Hierarch. Then so be it, I'm one step closer to resolving my game breaking spells (Stifle? Right, I run 23 lands, only 7 fetchlands and 6 cards of accel).

Still I might be wrong there and the tempo decks would gain a lot. I'm thinking how combat this. Considering 3 ways
a) adding 3 Missteps in the S/B (probably cutting Grip, Shaman, Serenity)
b) adding 3 Blasts in the S/B. This is a hard thought. I believe Blast to be more broadly useful. It even gives you an additional shot against 'Folk, okay against combo (and about the only relevant card against Show and Tell). Its somewhat worse against tempo than MM, but still is okay.
c) adding some Oblivion Rings. Well, it should of compensate for the fact that our STPs would get countered a bit more often now, not to mention Oblivion Rings are of a broad use as well.

[troopatroop]

You need to rebuild your deck. I'm starting with this.

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Plains

I understand it's hard to fit it all in (especially the Punishing/Grove combo>_<), but it's probably worth it. Cut a little of each!

[Tinefol]

I'm either running 4/4 Grove/Fire or 0/0. And if I'm running 4/4, I run 0 Lavamancers. And I'm never running 3 Hierarch either, its 4 or 0. 2 Wasteland is just as random. And 20 lands is about too little. Certainly not how I'm rebuilding the deck, ever.

[troopatroop]

I'm either running 4/4 Grove/Fire or 0/0. And if I'm running 4/4, I run 0 Lavamancers. And I'm never running 3 Hierarch either, its 4 or 0. 2 Wasteland is just as random. And 20 lands is about too little. Certainly not how I'm rebuilding the deck, ever.

The Championship Big Zoo list from Japan played 3. Grove/Fire might be a different story, you can -2 the Grims if you want.

2 Wasteland are AMAZING. Why don't people realize this?

[Koby]

I can corroborate the 2 Wasteland plan. Especially since Zoo already runs KotR, it just gives you more utility to find n the face of Glacial Chasm/Maze of Ith/Tabernacle. These are especially troublesome, and running 2 Wasteland answers these cards. Having the option of mana/color screwing the opponent is also nothing to scoff at, and you don't need a full 4 to achieve this.

Remember that you're not going for absolute Land Destruction; you're just buying enough tempo to smash face with Goyf and gang.

[lordofthepit]

Your analysis, I believe is more or less correct, but I just don't think its justifiable to run it. I think the cards I run are better than both burn and missteps against Midrange (Junk/Bant/CBtop), and the real upgrade comes from Ichorid, Storm Combo, High Tide, Elves (and most of non storm combo is an okay match as is, I'm not really afraid of Aluren, Food Chain or Painter or w/e) and Reanimator (haven't seen one _forever_). I think these decks are marginal enough even now, and they're certainly going to be hit with an MM hysteria (both with people generally stopping to play them and just being knocked out in first rounds). As is I just relegate my sideboard solely for these matches.

I agree with your take, and I think aside from Sylvan Library (which I don't like as a matter of personal preference except in the most control or attrition-oriented metas), the difference in our decklists really reflects the difference in our metagames.

My local meta has been overrun with Reanimator, Merfolk, Storm, Elves, and Dredge.

[lordofthepit]

The Championship Big Zoo list from Japan played 3. Grove/Fire might be a different story, you can -2 the Grims if you want.

2 Wasteland are AMAZING. Why don't people realize this?

Wastelands are one of the best reason to play Big Zoo over small Zoo, but supporting Wastelands along with Grove of the Burnwillows in a 3-color deck that needs to its basics and duals to grow Nacatl is getting greedy. Although some of my wins that can directly be attribute to Wastelands, I think I lose more due to manascrew against opposing Wastelands.

When I don't run the Punishing Fires combo, I definitely make sure to have 2-3 Wastelands though.

[lordofthepit]

I played Mental Misstep Rubin Zoo for the first time. Pretty happy with it. There was always a quality target (except game 1 against Dragon Stompy). I'm not sure it won me any games that I would have lost otherwise, but I never felt that I would be better served with my previous flex plays (Sylvan Library, Grim Lavamancer, Green Sun's Zenith, Path to Exile, more burn, etc.)

[lordofthepit]

Here's a question about playstyle for players who run Punishing Fires. (But judging from the fact that I've made the last four posts in this thread, it might be just me.)

With the inclusion of Mental Misstep, Merfolk is probably going to be a pretty popular deck in the next few months, and they're probably going to be more likely to run Standstills than before. Usually, Standstill is a pretty terrible card for them against Zoo, but Big Zoo decks tend to run fewer 1-drops (and Noble Hierarch hardly even counts); furthermore, decks with Punishing Fire tend not to run Lavamancer as well, so you may be down to 4 Wild Nacatls versus 4 Mental Missteps to provide early board pressure.

Let's say you're on the draw. Fortunately, they don't have a one-drop (Vial or Cursecatcher) on turn 1, but you're unable to resolve a solid one-drop either (i.e. your Nacatl gets countered or Submerged, or all you have is a Noble Hierarch). They drop a Standstill on turn two on an empty board (no Mutavault, creature, or Vial on their end either).

Eventually, we're going to have to break the Standstill. In general (i.e. with any deck, not just Zoo), when you're in a situation where you have no board pressure against a deck that runs manlands, your best options are as follows:
(a) break the Standstill immediately to preserve tempo, which is usually the best option for aggro
(b) break the Standstill after making land drops, which is often the best option for combo
(c) break the Standstill on your opponent's end step once he reaches maximum hand size, forcing him to discard down; this is usually the best option for control, but sometimes for an aggro or combo deck that has a slow hand and faces no board pressure

What's our role in this matchup, assuming Merfolk doesn't land Mutavault in the next few turns to force the issue? With traditional Zoo, you can't afford to lose tempo, the the best play would be to drop a creature as soon as possible if able. However, with Big Zoo (and even more so with Punishing Fires), you can afford to play the control role. If you can keep making land drops and eventually draw into your "combo" pieces (a Fire and a Grove, but possibly a KotR or StP) under Standstill, it might be best to just wait until they draw their 7th card, then play a Punishing Fire at the end of their turn. What do you think?

To recap:
- You have no creatures; they have no creatures, Vials, or manland on board, but they may draw into one or be sandbagging it.
- You're playing against Merfolk. It would obviously be terrible to lose tempo against Landstill or even Dreadstill.

[lordofthepit]

I've played a lot of different decks, but I've always had the most success with Big Zoo, and most of the most memorable/enjoyable games (for both players) were with this guy.

Earlier this year before Mental Misstep, Big Zoo was pretty successful. Although it saw less play than Small Zoo, it seemed to regularly perform better at big events such as SCG. But after Mental Misstep, Small Zoo put up better numbers; but it seemed to me as though Small Zoo got marginally weaker in the new metagame and Big Zoo seemed to pretty much disappear.

I'm not sure exactly why this is the case., because I would have assumed Big Zoo would benefit from a slower metagame. I suspect that the disappearance of Goblins and Merfolk from the Misstep metagame made Zoo a less popular choice overall. Furthermore, with Zoo being a less significant player, it made more sense to go fast to outrace the likes of NO RUG than it did to go Big in order to get an advantage in the pseudomirror.

In any case, I'd like to revisit Big Zoo again. I had a lot of success with the Punishing Fire build locally, but the shop that I used to play at isn't representative of a larger metagame. I wonder if it's now the time where Big Zoo can shine once again.

Personally, there are a lot of things I really love about this deck in the new metagame, especially with GSZ in the fold:
- NO RUG and Bant should still be a player. The ability to run 8 Knight of the Reliquary and 2-3 Wastelands can utterly cripple that deck.
- On another note, turn 1 Noble Hierarch or GSZ into Dryad Arbor allows us to ramp up to Knight of the Reliquary on turn 2 and quickly bury the opponent in an avalanche of Wastelands.
- Scavenging Ooze is an awesome tutor target that gives this deck legitimate game against Dredge, Loam, and occasionally Reanimator in Game 1. In the mirror, it manages their Knights and Lavamancers. If Snapcaster Mage becomes big (contrary to what I expect), it's an awesome way to neuter its ability. And of course, it can grow huge and gain you plenty of life for the aggro mirrors.
- Between Ooze and Gaddock Teeg, a GSZ toolbox becomes viable, although I would avoid getting too cute.
- GSZ is a great way to get around Counterbalance and/or Chalice of the Void, if they ever return to the metagame. It also hoses Blood Moon strategies.

[lordofthepit]

I've played a lot of different decks, but I've always had the most success with Big Zoo, and most of the most memorable/enjoyable games (for both players) were with this guy.

Earlier this year before Mental Misstep, Big Zoo was pretty successful. Although it saw less play than Small Zoo, it seemed to regularly perform better at big events such as SCG. But after Mental Misstep, Small Zoo put up better numbers; but it seemed to me as though Small Zoo got marginally weaker in the new metagame and Big Zoo seemed to pretty much disappear.

I'm not sure exactly why this is the case., because I would have assumed Big Zoo would benefit from a slower metagame. I suspect that the disappearance of Goblins and Merfolk from the Misstep metagame made Zoo a less popular choice overall. Furthermore, with Zoo being a less significant player, it made more sense to go fast to outrace the likes of NO RUG than it did to go Big in order to get an advantage in the pseudomirror.

In any case, I'd like to revisit Big Zoo again. I had a lot of success with the Punishing Fire build locally, but the shop that I used to play at isn't representative of a larger metagame. I wonder if it's now the time where Big Zoo can shine once again.

Personally, there are a lot of things I really love about this deck in the new metagame, especially with GSZ in the fold:
- NO RUG and Bant should still be a player. The ability to run 8 Knight of the Reliquary and 2-3 Wastelands can utterly cripple that deck.
- On another note, turn 1 Noble Hierarch or GSZ into Dryad Arbor allows us to ramp up to Knight of the Reliquary on turn 2 and quickly bury the opponent in an avalanche of Wastelands.
- Scavenging Ooze is an awesome tutor target that gives this deck legitimate game against Dredge, Loam, and occasionally Reanimator in Game 1. In the mirror, it manages their Knights and Lavamancers. If Snapcaster Mage becomes big (contrary to what I expect), it's an awesome way to neuter its ability. And of course, it can grow huge and gain you plenty of life for the aggro mirrors.
- Between Ooze and Gaddock Teeg, a GSZ toolbox becomes viable, although I would avoid getting too cute.
- GSZ is a great way to get around Counterbalance and/or Chalice of the Void, if they ever return to the metagame. It also hoses Blood Moon strategies.

[Esper3k]

I had a lot of fun with Big Zoo (and even T64'd GP Providence this year with it!), especially the versions with Punishing Fire.

I think it was actually better when MM was around since Pfires is immune to MM, yet still kills SFMs.

Also, being able to actually play Blood Moon due to Hierarchs is pretty awesome as well.

[ironclad8690]

Here's my Big Zoo List. With Jund so popular I think this deck can make a comeback.

1 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
4 Grove Of The Burnwillows
1 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
22

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Qasali Pridamge
1 Scavenging Ooze
46

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Path To Exile
4 Punishing Fire
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth Knight Errant
60

SB: 15
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pyroblast

SB is mainly for storm and show and tell matchups.

[Esper3k]

I would like to see Blood Moon in there somewhere. With all those BUG decks and 4 color Deathrite Shaman decks running 0 basics, it's still an ass beating even if they have a Deathrite Shaman out (good luck casting Abrupt Decay with DR + Mountains). Plus, it's not like we don't have plenty of answers to Deathrite Shaman as well.

If you're running Punishing Fires, you really should run StP over PtE. StP gives you another Pfires trigger in case you don't have a Grove out.

[ScatmanX]

If you're running Punishing Fires, you really should run StP over PtE. StP gives you another Pfires trigger in case you don't have a Grove out.
And PtE doesn't has the best synergy with Blood Moon...

[ironclad8690]

I would like to see Blood Moon in there somewhere. With all those BUG decks and 4 color Deathrite Shaman decks running 0 basics, it's still an ass beating even if they have a Deathrite Shaman out (good luck casting Abrupt Decay with DR + Mountains). Plus, it's not like we don't have plenty of answers to Deathrite Shaman as well.

If you're running Punishing Fires, you really should run StP over PtE. StP gives you another Pfires trigger in case you don't have a Grove out.

Don't you think blood moon would be bad with grove though?

[Esper3k]

Don't you think blood moon would be bad with grove though?

Why do you need Grove if your opponent can't cast spells for the rest of the game? :)

===========================

On a side note, anyone else really stoked about Boros charm for Zoo decks?

[trivial_matters]

I haven't tried Boros Charm but I don't like it much, to be honest. I wouldn't replace Price of Progress with it.

[Esper3k]

I haven't tried Boros Charm but I don't like it much, to be honest. I wouldn't replace Price of Progress with it.

For me, I really like the flexibility of the 4 damage or the Indestructible options. The ability to switch between offense or protect yourself from most sweepers (damn you, Terminus) is really appealing to me.

[ironclad8690]

For me, I really like the flexibility of the 4 damage or the Indestructible options. The ability to switch between offense or protect yourself from most sweepers (damn you, Terminus) is really appealing to me.

I do think it gives late game gas, which is pretty cool. Double striking a steppe lynx and gettin in for 8 on turn two seems pretty legit :) or maybe 4 jitte counters. Hm, I'm starting to like this card...

[angel882]

Hi, I played yesterday against my friend's BUG control deck (with Plainswalkers) with this list

Creatures [20]
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [11]
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [3]
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts [1]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Gaddock Teeg

The list work great and games were like 6-2 for me. I have also played the more traditional aggro zoo, but usually in late game it runs out of gas. I like the big zoo in the current meta because it's quite aggressive but it also has good late game.

The only thing is that should I be running Bloodbraid Elf over GSZ? Any thoughts?

[Esper3k]

Hi, I played yesterday against my friend's BUG control deck (with Plainswalkers) with this list

Creatures [20]
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [11]
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [3]
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Artifacts [1]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Gaddock Teeg

The list work great and games were like 6-2 for me. I have also played the more traditional aggro zoo, but usually in late game it runs out of gas. I like the big zoo in the current meta because it's quite aggressive but it also has good late game.

The only thing is that should I be running Bloodbraid Elf over GSZ? Any thoughts?

If your meta has more blue control decks, then BBE is better than GSZ since it lets you recover better after a sweeper. Otherwise if you're playing against a bunch of midrange decks, GSZ might be better since it'll allow you to get your Knights out more consistently (you don't really need the card advantage from BBE since Pfires is going to generate you incredible CA in those matchups).

[angel882]

Hi, played in a small 13 players tournament and went 5-0 with this list

Creatures [23]
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [12]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts [1]
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [1]
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Sulfuric Vortex

MUs were Dredge (2-1), Combo elves (2-1), Rgb Goblins (2-1), Esperblade (2-0), Nic Fit (2-0). Punishing Fire were great in all those match ups which is one of the reasons I placed so well. I very pleased with the list and will try it out again.

[Esper3k]

Great to hear! How was Ajani for you? Did you miss having GSZ at all?

[angel882]

Great to hear! How was Ajani for you? Did you miss having GSZ at all?

I drew Ajani once and it won me a game against Nic Fit when 5/5 Knight flyes over zombie tokens and hits 10 :) I didn't miss GSZ cause BBE was great. It's not that awesome like it's in Jund but it was still great.