MTGO Online Deck Series

[morgan_coke]

Two decklists are in the new client update for this. They are:

Exiler
3x Karakas
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Mishra's Factory
14x Plains

3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Mangara of Corondor
3x Serra Avenger
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
4x Benevolent Bodyguard
1x Weathered Wayfarer
3x Ethersworn Canonist

1x Bonesplitter
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
4x Kor Firewalker
2x Aura of Silence
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Silence
1x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Relic of Progenitus

Basically thats a Death and Taxes deck minus the SoLS, SoFI, and Wastelands.

Boltslinger
20x Mountain

4x Hellspark Elemental
4x Goblin Guide
4x Keldon Marauders

4x Flames of the Blood Hand
1x Price of Progress
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fireblast
3x Rift Bolt

Sideboard
4x Relic of Progenitus
3x Price of Progress
4x Pyroblast
4x Pyrostatic Pillar

Basically a Legacy burn deck.

So in essence, Wizards is going to be selling in the store at least two complete Legacy decklists. And probably more as this deck series expands. Obviously, they've decided to try and grow the format. I'm curious to hear what others think about this new tactic/card availability. This sets a ton of new expectations as far as precon decks go, these are chock full of rares and tourney caliber right out of the box.

Curious to see others' thoughts on this. If you currently play only paper Legacy, would stuff like this be enough to get you to go online? Alternatively, if you're already online, are you happy to see these and hopeful for new players? Or worried that the value of your cards might diminish?

*These will never see print in paper because of the Reserved List, so until that goes away, forget seeing these there.

[brattin]

I'm not really interested in playing online, but I'm curious what the sales plan is. Are they limiting quantities? How much does it cost? What's your source of information?

[bleuisforwhimps]

Not interested, and I don't think many legacy players will be. Part of the fun of playing legacy is having those old rare cards and play with them.Online magic just doesn't capture the spirit of legacy.

[Gocho]

Wait, they sold constructed Decks for Legacy?
How much will cost this decks?

[morgan_coke]

The "source" for these is the latest MTGO update. These deck files were added to the system. You can even load them in your deck editor if you change the load folder to "theme decks - magic online series".

No, these aren't for sale yet, and no, we don't know how much they'll cost yet. I would guess something around FTV prices, but it could be more or less. Also, these are only the first decks in a series. More will be coming. Merfolk without force of wills seems like an obvious choice to get this treatment, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Versus]

D&T hardly seems worth the effort without the proper removal and mana denile.

edit: Ait, that list above does have Swords in it...

Does Finn get a royalty check for this? :wink:

[caiomarcos]

He meant SoFI and SoLS I believe.
Took me a long while to realize that. Reading that the deck has no Swords and seeing 4x Swords to Plowshares makes me confus.

[morgan_coke]

If any player should get a royalty check for DnT, it's Blazelix (posts here as Salogy), guys done 100x for the deck what Finn and the thread here have.

[Gocho]

The "source" for these is the latest MTGO update. These deck files were added to the system. You can even load them in your deck editor if you change the load folder to "theme decks - magic online series".

No, these aren't for sale yet, and no, we don't know how much they'll cost yet. I would guess something around FTV prices, but it could be more or less. Also, these are only the first decks in a series. More will be coming. Merfolk without force of wills seems like an obvious choice to get this treatment, but we'll have to wait and see.

I must have something wrong, because this folder doesn't appear in my MTGO client.

I want to know how much they'll cost. It could make cheaper a full set of Price of Progress.

[JamieW89]

If I could get a deck close to the one I play in paper magic (UWb Landstill) for ~$50 I'd get it without hesitating.

[DalkonCledwin]

If any player should get a royalty check for DnT, it's Blazelix (posts here as Salogy), guys done 100x for the deck what Finn and the thread here have.

you mean... other than coming up with the entire concept of the deck in the first place, right?

[Koby]

Finn might have been the original sponsor for the deck, but Blazelix tested the shit out of it, and tuned it, and made it actively competitive.

This deck would not have been picked up by WotC to include in MTGO Store if it were not for Blazelix's endless dedication for the deck.

But hey, playtesting isn't necessary these days anymore right? It's all theorycraft.

[DalkonCledwin]

Finn might have been the original sponsor for the deck, but Blazelix tested the shit out of it, and tuned it, and made it actively competitive.

This deck would not have been picked up by WotC to include in MTGO Store if it were not for Blazelix's endless dedication for the deck.

But hey, playtesting isn't necessary these days anymore right? It's all theorycraft.

LOL, like Blazelix is the only one who has played the deck on MTGO. I know he isn't because I made the top-2 in at least 2 daily events myself using a Death and Taxes build. However I am not going to deny that Blazelix has done a significant amount of testing for the deck and that he is probably the one who is to be credited more than anyone else with making it be noticed by WotC.

HOWEVER, that said, I would be careful in rushing to the conclusion that he is the only one who tests the deck or plays it in any amount of competitiveness. In fact I would like to point out, that MTGO Legacy is not the same animal as Paper Legacy, and that in fact at least one key component for Mono-White Death and Taxes has yet to even be printed on MTGO as of the current point in time (Rishadan Port). That said even if someone were to buy the above listed pre-con for Death and Taxes, they would still be missing a huge chunk of the most recent MODO tech for the deck.

[Koby]

Don't take my word for it: http://www.classicquarter.com/decks/default.asp
Search Deck name: Death & Taxes.

Overwhelming majority of the wins are attributed to Blazelix.
Even I eeked out a flawless victory in a Daily Event - which doesn't mean much.

Our testing of the deck revealed that 3 O-rings was far too many to draw. We ended up cutting 1 for Runed Halo/other cards. I liked running Weathered Wayfarer to punish greedy mana bases, while Blazelix runes the Halo for a catch all.

Neither of us run trash like Goldmeadow Harrier, because quite honestly, he's unnecessary with MoM.

[rockout]

This tactic makes me excited to play legacy online barring the decks don't cost over 30 bucks. I've been thinking about getting into online legacy for some time but did not want to buy card for card from bots which takes forever and forces are the same price as paper forces which is RETARDED. Good job wizards.

[DalkonCledwin]

Don't take my word for it: http://www.classicquarter.com/decks/default.asp
Search Deck name: Death & Taxes.

Overwhelming majority of the wins are attributed to Blazelix.
Even I eeked out a flawless victory in a Daily Event - which doesn't mean much.

Our testing of the deck revealed that 3 O-rings was far too many to draw. We ended up cutting 1 for Runed Halo/other cards. I liked running Weathered Wayfarer to punish greedy mana bases, while Blazelix runes the Halo for a catch all.

Neither of us run trash like Goldmeadow Harrier, because quite honestly, he's unnecessary with MoM.

The funny thing about this, is that half the time Blazelix was playing against a field that consisted of the same people from week to week playing the same decks from week to week. There is very little variance on Magic Online, and not a very large population of people who play Legacy despite the fact that Legacy Events regularly make threshold for actually firing. And where there is variance it is because people are testing new tech that happens to be a week or so out of date compared to paper magic due to the rotation schedule of Magic Online being a week or two behind that of paper magic.

And the fact that he runs Runed Halo over Goldmeadow harrier speaks of an underestimating of Goldmeadow Harrier's potential in an environment where Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn exists. Because in all honesty, Runed Halo does not stop Emrakul from attacking and causing you to sac permanents the way that Goldmeadow Harrier does. I would rather run both of those cards or just the harrier instead of one or the other. And neither would make my cut for main decking them over a removal spell.

[Koby]

/me blinks...

Karakas deals with Emrakul pretty handily. Are you just playing retarded for entertainment?

[menace13]

Doesn't Mangara,O-Ring and Flickerwisp to a small extent deal with or stall Emrakul?

[DalkonCledwin]

yes Karakas does handle Emrakul. As does O-Ring and Flickerwisp. however there are a few problems inherent with those things.

First Oblivion Ring is not instant speed. Neither for that matter is Flickerwisp. To get Flickerwisp or Oblivion Ring to handle Emrakul before she attacks one needs to be able to vial in the Flickerwisp with some reliance. As for the Oblivion Ring that can't become instant speed as far as I know.

As far as Karakas and Mangara go. You need to get lucky and hope that the Emrakul isn't played while your Mangara is suffering from Summoning Sickness and that your opponent doesn't have an answer for it while it is suffering from summoning sickness. And with Karakas bouncing Emrakul only works if the method they used to cheat Emrakul into play did not revolve around the card Sneak Attack because if it did, what is to prevent them from paying another single red mana to just cheat her back out again now that your Karakas is tapped?

The best answer for Emrakul hands down, is to tap her down before the combat phase. At least that is my opinion. There are other answers out there that are just as effective, but they are harder to accomplish and definitely not color friendly to Mono-White.

But all said, Karakas is probably the best answer of the lot of them to Emrakul, with Oblivion Ring being a short second, and Mangara a close third. Yet all the same I would rather be running a sure fire answer to the card that makes sure she never gets a chance to attack unless they destroy the card that is preventing her from attacking which against a Death and Taxes deck can take some doing.

[Gocho]

This tactic makes me excited to play legacy online barring the decks don't cost over 30 bucks. I've been thinking about getting into online legacy for some time but did not want to buy card for card from bots which takes forever and forces are the same price as paper forces which is RETARDED. Good job wizards.

If Fow cost the same price as paper forces, they are cheaper than before. You can't bought for less than $60 some time ago.
Fow was printed in Master Edition 1, and Wizards didn't sell many boosters of this edition, so there are less online Fow, than paper one. Dealers make his work and you can't find cheap Fows. I hope, they reprint it in ME4.

In the other side, look at the paper prices for Karakas, Moat and Tabernacle, and look at the online ones.

But I feel like you, many people would play MTGO for Legacy if they can get a little unpowered deck for over $30.

[Finn]

Hi folks. Just thought I would mention that this is Blazelix' most recently posted deck:

3 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
13 Plains
4 Wasteland

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Æther Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

...and it is different from the one in my thread OP by about 7 cards, and all of those cards have been in the deck at some point prior to MTGO D+T. Secret: It was thoroughly playtested prior to MTGO. I am certain that Blazelix is the man, but you are a fool if you can't see the wind carrying his wings. That happens a lot around here.

[DalkonCledwin]

I have no doubt that Blazelix is a capable pilot of Death and Taxes. I just feel that his lists when compared to the ones that are played in Paper Magic are horribly out of date (as were mine when I played Death and Taxes on MTGO). But this is not necessarily his fault, but rather the fault of the client. It takes a superb pilot to be able to win consistently with a deck that far out of date.

However, at the same time I feel that the MTGO Meta is not an accurate Meta with which to be testing for the Paper Meta. At the best it is a great place to practice your technical play skill. But it is not that good of a place to learn what decks are at the top of the totem pole when it comes to a meta because around 10 to 20% of the cards for Legacy still have yet to be released.

That said I am still looking forward myself to getting back into playing MTGO when I can get the chance to purchase the cards that I need to be able to participate there.

[Koby]

Make no mistake about it: there is no substitute for knowing your metgame and adapting to it. This is 100% true for MTGO and any local shop. The only difference between the two is the former is more randdom while the latter is usually fixed (say 50% known decks). The fact thatBlazelix and D&T has manageds to come out on top numerous times is a positive sign for the deck. I distinctly remember the discussion regarding Ethersworn Canonist being dismissed in favor of Aven Mindcensor and Goldmeadow Harrier by and large. Perhaps most paper metagames lack an abundance of combo, but Canonist has proven very useful.

I'm of the opinion that there is an optimal list for any metagame, and through weeks of testing Blazelix and others online have concluded that the list he plays is the best fit for MTGO.

[DalkonCledwin]

Out of curiosity, if you were to create a deck design. And then some Professional Magic Player picks the deck up and plays the hell out of it, but does not give you credit for creating the deck or even innovating it. Not to mention his friends go around telling people that he is the one who deserves all the credit for the deck... wouldn't you be the slightest bit peeved about that? I know I would.

The Creator of the deck deserves as much, if not MORE credit than the people playing the deck, due to the fact that if it were not for the creator of the deck, there would be no deck to play in the first place.

Further, if the list Blazelix is playing right now is the best fit for MTGO. Does that mean you guys do not believe Scars of Mirrodin added anything worth testing to the deck?

[Sims]

Back to the initial topic. I had originally gotten into MTGO playing pauper and have a decent pauper card pool but it's been boring me... as much fun and innovation as the format contains the decks are ultimately very similar and the best decks are still the best decks until some awesome new commons are printed to spark something that can contend with the current tier.

So because of that, i have not even run my MTGO client except to pick up a FTV Relics box (was going to use it and build one of my EDH decks online..) but then ultimately decided fuck it, becuase i didn't want to spend 100+ dollars on a digital EDH deck... and i never got into legacy because i wasn't active on MTGO for the master's edition 1-3 releases to pick up staples... and I refuse to pay near paper prices for digital product unless i have no other choice as legacy dies in paper around me.



However...

Depending on how much these decks cost... i might consider picking one up and sliding into a tourney or two when i can't access my LGS for tournaments.

[DalkonCledwin]

these decks do have the benefit of allowing people who previously didn't have the budget for MTGO to be able to afford playing MTGO Legacy with little expense (again depending on how much they cost). Speaking of the costs for these decks. I highly doubt they will run more than the more conventional Pre-Cons. And at the worst they may cost what a Dual Deck costs due to the prevalence of Tournament Quality Rares in these. But other than that I don't think they should be all that expensive.

[morgan_coke]

Hi folks. Just thought I would mention that this is Blazelix' most recently posted deck:

3 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
13 Plains
4 Wasteland

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Æther Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

...and it is different from the one in my thread OP by about 7 cards, and all of those cards have been in the deck at some point prior to MTGO D+T. Secret: It was thoroughly playtested prior to MTGO. I am certain that Blazelix is the man, but you are a fool if you can't see the wind carrying his wings. That happens a lot around here.

That's not blaze's most recent build.

[DalkonCledwin]

That's not blaze's most recent build.

maybe not his most recent build, but its strikingly close to the one posted on the Decks of the Week Archive for 10/11/2010, which is the most recent deck those who do not have access to an MTGO account can look at. For the record the one posted on said date is as follows:

2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
10 Plains
4 Wasteland

3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD:
2 Aura of Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

[menace13]

. I am certain that Blazelix is the man, but you are a fool if you can't see the wind carrying his wings. That happens a lot around here.

You are not anything close to a wind carrying Blaze to 4-0s/3-1's and top 8's, while It is your deck. WotC printed it in a box because Blaze has over 60 placings in 5 months. more than 1 every 3 days. He also doesnt play bad cards like Harrier and Condemn.

No one is taking away the credit for you making the deck- which i feel you should also include the six hundred fourty three people who helped it change from your intial build of the deck; a failed UW Tempo attempt into WWeenies with Abilities, but Blaze is the REASON it is even being played online and not you or this thread or the thread on Salvation.

Flame snipped. Verbal warning. The next one won't be verbal. - Bardo

[rockout]

Does anyone know if there has been a possible release date of these decks? I wasn't able to find a date on the wizards website.

[DalkonCledwin]

Does anyone know if there has been a possible release date of these decks? I wasn't able to find a date on the wizards website.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/112309a

That is the link to all KNOWN product that is to be released on MTGO. I do not however know if that includes Pre-Cons, but it does not seem to because I seem to recall that some EDH Precon's were released earlier this year which are not included on that list. I think what that link amounts to is all product that has an equivalent release date for paper product. With the exception of the Masters Editions which are considered sets in their own right and thus need to be treated similarly to other sets.

[Cabal_chan]

You are not anything close to a wind carrying Blaze to 4-0s/3-1's and top 8's, while It is your deck. WotC printed it in a box because Blaze has over 60 placings in 5 months. more than 1 every 3 days. He also doesnt play bad cards like Harrier and Condemn.

No one is taking away the credit for you making the deck- which i feel you should also include the six hundred fourty three people who helped it change from your intial build of the deck; a failed UW Tempo attempt into WWeenies with Abilities, but Blaze is the REASON it is even being played online and not you or this thread or the thread on Salvation.

And where are you from? Who even speaks that way? Wind carrying his wings?? How old are you 78?

Technically, Finn is the reason Blaze is playing it. If Finn didn't come up with the deck, Blaze wouldn't be playing it, because the deck wouldn't exist. 'But but someone else woulda...' would yield the exact same discussion. Just replace Finn's name with someone else's.

Also by your reasoning, we should totally give all credit to Intel/IBM/other tech company for the transistor and forget about John Bardeen, Walter Brattain, and William Shockley.

[menace13]

Technically, Finn is the reason Blaze is playing it. If Finn didn't come up with the deck, Blaze wouldn't be playing it, because the deck wouldn't exist. 'But but someone else woulda...' would yield the exact same discussion. Just replace Finn's name with someone else's.

Also by your reasoning, we should totally give all credit to Intel/IBM/other tech company for the transistor and forget about John Bardeen, Walter Brattain, and William Shockley.

No. Not Really. The point was and still is that WotC made that box online due to Blaze's success with the deck online. Has nothing to do with Finn, at all. In your flawed logic, then it would have been any other random deck in Blaze's hands regardless.

[Xero]

No. Not Really. The point was and still is that WotC made that box online due to Blaze's success with the deck online. Has nothing to do with Finn, at all.

You don't actually know what WotC's reasoning behind making this deck was. However, if Finn hadn't invented the deck, it for sure wouldn't be a preconstructed deck, because it wouldn't exist.

[menace13]

You don't actually know what WotC's reasoning behind making this deck was. However, if Finn hadn't invented the deck, it for sure wouldn't be a preconstructed deck, because it wouldn't exist.

No, I do know why WotC made those decks.
Budget options that have been shown to be viable online- thanks to Blaze-. WotC wouldnt have printed that particular one if Blaze didnt play it so often and well.

[DalkonCledwin]

No, I do know why WotC made those decks.
Budget options that have been shown to be viable online- thanks to Blaze-. WotC wouldnt have printed that particular one if Blaze didnt play it so often and well.

LOL, has WotC actually come out and specifically stated that that is their reasoning for making these decks? Or are you just automatically assuming that that is their reasoning for making these decks?

[Salogy]

On MTGO, I am the player Blazelix. I have been running a "Death and Taxes" deck online since MTGO Legacy first started. To say that is half true because JarHorsk is the first player to successfully place with a mono white Death and Taxes build online. I am the first player to place with "Flicker Teeg" in Classic online (http://puremtgo.com/articles/format-snap-shot-4-extended-and-classic). I played a GW Death and Taxes deck in an early legacy event and did not place. Since then I have placed in both Daily Events and Premier Events online plus MOCS VII at 37th place with Death and Taxes.

My original goal was to get Death and Taxes featured on mtg's Daily Deck List as a 1-day fly. I ran Benevolent Bodyguards for 3 months in the animal that is MTGO. This lead to me being the "WW deck with Karakas which should be a good matchup" (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/chasing-victory-legacy-is-that-even-a-real-deck/ (www.channelfireball.com/articles/chasing-victory-legacy-is-that-even-a-real-deck/)). The "White Weenie" player with "several good showings" ((http://puremtgo.com/articles/look-legacy-april-7-13-beginning (http://puremtgo.com/articles/look-legacy-april-7-13-beginning)). Finally, The "average Joe" playing a "homebrew white weenie deck" online (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/19292_Constructed_Criticism_The_Defining_Forces_of_Legacy.html). Now Death and Taxes on MTGO Legacy is much more than a simple white weenie list.

To say Finn is the one carrying up my wings is underestimating the Hive Mind. My fellow clannies and playtest buddies are the ones who have helped me improve my skills. I started with an old build of Death and Taxes from Deckcheck.net and have been improving the list since. I ran Land Tax in a classic build to fuel Jotun Grunts. I also ran Mana Crypt to get a turn 2 Elspeth on the battlefield. Now in my legacy build, I am running Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard. Putting all the credit in once place is selfish as I have never said Death and Taxes is my own creation or pawned the deck as my own. Death and Taxes is now just another theme deck, which is much more than I wished for.

[menace13]

LOL, has WotC actually come out and specifically stated that that is their reasoning for making these decks? Or are you just automatically assuming that that is their reasoning for making these decks?

They-WotC- did not.
I think they took a look into the the numbers and needed a way to boost online constructed. Finding budget decks that can win and offering them in a boxed package. Seeing it is the 2nd most placing deck online and that this is called MTGO online Deck series and Blaze has more than half of those 100 showings of the deck?.. I am going to have to say No, I dont think, I know.

Do you have a better arguement? Maybe WotC pulled straws? If i want to oo live in oblivious bizaro world, I might be inclined to not see simple correlations.
LOL!!111ONE11ELEVEN.

[bakofried]

So, to sum it all up, Finn created the deck, and Blaze tweaked it for a given meta? Isn't that what everyone is supposed to do? No offense to you, man, your post was perfectly polite, and I'm sure you're a damn good pilot. But your friends (if they are that, I'll just dub them "supporters") are leaving a less than favorable impression, due to their poor manners.

Furthermore, I'm willing to say that it may be (I'm not aware enough to make any surer statement) due to Blaze that Wizards is taking notice with regards to MTGO. However, Finn is responsible for the creation of the deck, and its popularity in paper magic, which is (as far as I'm aware of) much more popular with the Legacy format. So the credit should ultimately be given to Finn.

[Salogy]

As mentioned earlier, MTGO Legacy and Legacy are not the same. I did not simply port a netdeck to MTGO in April when MTGO Legacy first started. The issue is not related to who discovered America first. Not who played the deck first. You could argue that person was JarHorsk. You also could also argue the player is Koby because Koby is the first to place with Death and Taxes in a Premier Event. This is about who made the deck popular on Magic Online which lead to the creation of a digital theme deck.

Yes, the new digital theme deck would have been created without any of my influence at all. Eventually wotc would have found a budget deck for their new deck series and published the list we have. I just find it hard to believe that Finn is the one who has the most influence with the creation of Exiler. I cannot remember the last time Finn was mentioned in a paper legacy article. Finn, who has no MTGO account and no solid results with "his" deck online.

I am flattered that Finn is aware of my Abolish build of Death and Taxes that I ran once. Finn has already posted my list (sans sideboard) in this very thread. It could be Finn who is copying people's decklists is waiting for his next build to be published. The original "Death and Taxes" deck was built by Finn on MTGSalvation. That whole thread produced the deck you see today. Finn is simply absorbing decklists and re-branding them as his own. To answer the original question, I am happy to see decks like these offered to new players online.

[DalkonCledwin]

Finn is simply absorbing decklists and re-branding them as his own.

ROFLMAO... So you are basically saying that despite the fact that Finn has virtually innovated every major change to Mono-White Death and Taxes in Paper Legacy to date with a few minor exceptions... that he is simply Net Decking his decks from other players in that thread and other places on the Internet?

That seems a rather incredulous claim to make considering he was definitely the creator of the deck to begin with.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

While this thread has utterly derailed, I'm going to throw out my two cents (it might actually be three or four cents) on the topic at hand.

As a format, paper legacy is bad for the ingenious business model that is Magic: the Gathering.

For one, cards don't often enter the legacy metagame until their value has been proved, by players, in the secondary market. Wizards of the Coast sees no direct return on investment from the secondary market. So, a format that thrives therein hurts their bottom line. Almost every legacy staple is neither type 2 nor extended legal, so players who play the format in the paper version must look to the secondary market to get their cards rather than cracking boosters. (Sidenote: Outside of draft, I haven't bought a booster pack of MtG since Ravnica and probably never will again.)

Two, paper legacy hurts wizards profitability in its permanence. Once a player owns a playset of Swords to Plowshares, that player effectively has the format's best removal in physical form, in perpetuity. In standard, et. al., a player needs to buy product for Putrefy one year, Condemn the next, and Path to Exile the year after that, because not only is the scope/ability of the removal increasing, the older methods are no longer viable or legal for the format. Each subsequent rotation or set release then brings WotC more profits because players need those new tools to play. In legacy, not so. There are decks in Legacy that have (more or less) not incorporated new cards since Ravnica or even before then, and would not necessarily require those new cards to function well. A player could essentially be playing the same version of a deck for five years without ever buying new product. Wizards does not want this.

This scheme of releasing classic Magic cards into the online realm in its essence, is an attempt by Wizards to pull legacy back into the scope of its profitability. The above-mentioned scheme would make the cards in Legacy vastly more affordable for someone new to the format because Wizards could control their price and availability, essentially only "printing" new copies of the cards online. With the format being both cheaper and readily available, newer players will naturally gravitate to the online game thus reducing the presence of players in the paper version both from natural attrition and stymied growth.

I believe this type of a move would hurt the paper format of legacy by limiting its availability to where Wizards can make the most money. Customers will be less inclined to spend money twice for the same cards, especially when those cards can be obtained cheaper and easier online. If the above-mentioned version of D&T was available online for $50 there is no way you could convince the already strapped-for-cash magic player to pick up the paper version because the Karakas alone would cost more than the whole deck.

I have personally been ranting and raving against Wizards' unabashed promotion of rampant consumerism for a while now. To me, it is overwhelmingly apparent that Wizards has no vested interest in the culture or community of Magic players outside of ways in which they may line their own wallets. Since M10, it has been flagrant to the point of offensiveness. This move would only further corrode the base of independent, communal, and eternal Magic, as it would take control away from the players in the one format that is more reliant on communal agency than top-down design implementation, and return that control to the hands of those who would exploit those players for their own profit. Any players used to the old ways will, in all likelihood, be forced to adapt to the new ways or give up the ghost. I already find it next to impossible to find anyone who plays paper to sit down at a shop for a friendly game of legacy (no matter how casual the deck) because everyone is so concerned with format legality and deck parity. This move would relegate most players' legacy decks to the realm of online and severely hurt those who enjoy purely paper Magic.

[DalkonCledwin]

um... there is the fact that you don't actually own MTGO cards. Wizards does. All you are really doing is Renting them from WotC. As far as I am concerned I would personally rather OWN my cards rather than run the risk that at some point WotC decides to Revoke my privalege to rent the cards that I am using for their online product.

If you don't believe me about this, just read the Terms of Service for Magic Online, it is explicitely stated that WotC can at any time cancel your account for any reason they see fit without notice and that you are forbidden from making a new account if they do so and that you lose access to all cards on your old account if they do this. So yeah.

[bakofried]

Yes, they may want MTGO to become the most popular medium (it's cheaper for them, they have far more control over product) but it won't have the same effect on Legacy, just because people who (typically) play Legacy play for more than just the format, they play because they like the experience of paper magic.

@Blaze
I didn't mean any offense to you by my statement; I was not trying to call you a net-decker, and I am not claiming that it is because of Finn that DnT is popular on MTGO. I did mean to berate your supporters, I did say you did not create the deck, though you did adapt it for your own meta, and I did claim that, ULTIMATELY, credit goes to Finn. This is going back to the royalties comment, not the comment that you made it popular on MTGO.

[menace13]

Yes, they may want MTGO to become the most popular medium (it's cheaper for them, they have far more control over product) but it won't have the same effect on Legacy, just because people who (typically) play Legacy play for more than just the format, they play because they like the experience of paper magic.

@Blaze
I didn't mean any offense to you by my statement; I was not trying to call you a net-decker, and I am not claiming that it is because of Finn that DnT is popular on MTGO. I did mean to berate your supporters, I did say you did not create the deck, though you did adapt it for your own meta, and I did claim that, ULTIMATELY, credit goes to Finn. This is going back to the royalties comment, not the comment that you made it popular on MTGO.

Well thanks for berating his supporters, You've done an excellent job so far. But, the arguement is that the deck is popular online and the reasons for it- it really is solely due to Blaze-. As far as my manners, this is me playing nice. Ultimately Finn did invent the deck, it is his deck, no one is undertaking a coup to usurp his deck from him. DnT is popularized on MTGO due to Blaze. That is the only thing my posts convey.

[bakofried]

I'm a moron. Discredit this post.

[menace13]

Not true, sir - your post explicitly stated that modern DnT evolved primarily due to Blaze, and furthermore stated that it is an (almost entirely separate entity from Finn's original deck idea.

Mendacious fallacy, good sir.

[DalkonCledwin]

Mendacious fallacy, good sir.

LOL, while you are correct that Bakofried got the information of your original post in this thread incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the tone of your original post (and by proxy all subsequent posts in this thread) have been quite hostile towards Finn and all of his supporters and nearly God-Worshiping of Blazelix, despite his attempts to give credit where credit is due and the fact that he has said at least once if not twice that the creation of the new pre-con would probably have happened just as easily without his help anyways.

[bakofried]

My apologies, then. I took that to be what you were stating. I'll amend the original post, and state why.

[DalkonCledwin]

Yeah, his tone was condescending, and his entire statement was full of alot of OPINION that he tried to pass off as facts. Especially the one about where he thinks Wizards got the idea to create the Preconstructed Deck Series that this thread is supposed to be discussing. That said, One thing he fails to realize is that a deck has a single (or sometimes a small group of) creator(s), however it is the community that eventually takes the deck and innovates it beyond its original form. That doesn't mean that the deck is any less of a creation of that (those) original creator(s).

[menace13]

LOL, while you are correct that Bakofried got the information of your original post in this thread incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the tone of your original post (and by proxy all subsequent posts in this thread) have been quite hostile towards Finn and all of his supporters and nearly God-Worshiping of Blazelix, despite his attempts to give credit where credit is due and the fact that he has said at least once if not twice that the creation of the new pre-con would probably have happened just as easily without his help anyways.

I was acting childish and there is no worship of anyone. Blaze is a good friend and a humble person. And I am going to disagree with blaze-surprise,surprise- WotC wouldn't have printed DnT in a precon for online if not for Blaze Catapulting the deck into 2nd place online, without his showings it would be 8-9th place.
WotC could also have preconstructed Goblins or Merfolk, also in the top 10 and are under 200 dollars-w/o FoWs- that do not have to use multi duals-could have been dredge, but that needs all its parts to be functional out the box, unlike RDW,DnT,Etc-.

[DalkonCledwin]

I was acting childish and there is no worship of anyone. Blaze is a good friend and a humble person. And I am going to disagree with blaze-surprise,surprise- WotC wouldn't have printed DnT in a precon for online if not for Blaze Catapulting the deck into 2nd place online, without his showings it would be 8-9th place.
WotC could also have preconstructed Goblins or Merfolk, also in the top 10 and are under 200 dollars-w/o FoWs- that do not have to use multi duals-could have been dredge, but that needs all its parts to be functional out the box, unlike RDW,DnT,Etc-.

Just out of curiousity, what place in the overall showings of the decks is the other deck that WotC is making a pre-con of? I want to know if there is any corralation between the two decks and their reason for being printed other than them both obviously being budget decks. Because in my mind the fact that they are both "BUDGET" decks is a bigger reason for WotC wanting to print them for the online community's legacy people... than any suggestion that it was because of their showing in tournament results.

[menace13]

Just out of curiousity, what place in the overall showings of the decks is the other deck that WotC is making a pre-con of? I want to know if there is any corralation between the two decks and their reason for being printed other than them both obviously being budget decks. Because in my mind the fact that they are both "BUDGET" decks is a bigger reason for WotC wanting to print them for the online community's legacy people... than any suggestion that it was because of their showing in tournament results.

I agree, budget was the main issue. However, seeing that a budget deck can place so often was brought to their attention from the results.
Any other budget decks are all below 20th, like Pox and Affinity
RDW is currently in 11th.
Ref: http://www.classicquarter.com/tournaments/meta_report.asp
Toogle the tab from Classic format to Legacy.

[bakofried]

What is the MTGO meta like?

[menace13]

What is the MTGO meta like?

Top 10 decks by showings as of October 15th.

1. Zoo 144
2. Death and Taxes 108
3. Goblins 91
4. Landstill 81
5. Dredge 75
6. Merfolk 71
7. TES/ANT 65
8. ThopterBalance 63
9.Countertop 57
10. Survival 50

[DalkonCledwin]

Top 10 decks by showings as of October 15th.

1. Zoo 144
2. Death and Taxes 108
3. Goblins 91
4. Landstill 81
5. Dredge 75
6. Merfolk 71
7. TES/ANT 65
8. ThopterBalance 63
9.Countertop 57
10. Survival 50

the problem with this information, is that the MTGO Legacy Community is very very much like a LGS Play Group. In that it consists of a very small handful of people playing the same decks over and over again until they decide to play a different deck or make small changes to their existing deck. Thus these results are in my opinion very very skewed.

[menace13]

the problem with this information, is that the MTGO Legacy Community is very very much like a LGS Play Group. In that it consists of a very small handful of people playing the same decks over and over again until they decide to play a different deck or make small changes to their existing deck. Thus these results are in my opinion very very skewed.

To date 733 people have joined Online Legacy constructed events. Out of those, approx 50 have joined 20 or more times and approx 100 over 10 times.

[Finn]

Hey folks.

I think you guys ironed it all out, but lemme just 'splain a bit since revisionist history tends to creep up if you don't fight it back. I can not take full credit for Merfolk climbing to tier 1. It is true that I began to tinker with it (and write about it) months before it became mainstream. It was not a port from Extended so I followed some dead ends and eventually came to the first competitive list. But then quite a few people began to run with it, and from that point it moved faster than I could keep up. So I became custodian rather than innovator. And besides, it was not that hard to pinpoint what a Merfolk deck should look like anyway. The whole purpose of it was to find a bonafide aggro deck in monoblue for access to counters and mana denial at the same time.

This was not the case with D+T. It's development moved much, much slower. Since the original thread still exists on Salvation, you can see how awkward it was for awhile. I had just written an article (on Salvation) about how broken I thought Aether Vial was and I wanted to create a deck to prove it. This was just a few months before Mangara was spoiled. When I saw him, I knew I had a deck. The very early attempts were blue and white. But it changed to white weenie pretty quickly. It was entirely different from the only existing white weenie deck at that time, Angel Stompy, so I had to carve out it's design from casual decks I had played over the years. From then, I tried pretty much everything that anyone suggested and I combed new sets for potential cards. But with so few people actually playing it, it was rare to get actual good advice. So I ended up essentially on my own path right up uintil this very point. The thread is so old that it is kind of a history of all this.

More power to you, Blazelix. I will never be a big time tournament player. This is just a hobby.


BTW, did I read the word "royalty"???

[Gocho]

http://community.wizards.com/magiconline/blog/2010/11/09/announcements_--_nov._9,_2010

The MTGO Deck Series will be released tomorrow for $29.99

If anyone want to start MTGO for Legacy it's the cheapest method. But we could play Burn vs D&T, Burn Mirror and D&T Mirror for weeks xD

[rockout]

I'm just hoping WOTC sells enough of these so they will offer more options.

[Sims]

I'm just hoping WOTC sells enough of these so they will offer more options.

I think they will.

I've never wanted to make the jump into Legacy on MTGO because I don't want to front a lot of cash to maintain a second collection. Burn always seemed like the deck I'd pick up if I went online because if played right it always has a chance to steal games even if it isn't really a good deck. Paying 30 for that deck and netting everything in there, for less than 4 price of progress' were selling on bots? Seems like a deal.

I would have liked to see some more options.. I'm a burn fan, no surprise considering the metagame i started playing type 1.5 in, but they could have included some kind of aggressive option aside from D&T (which always screamed more tempo and tricks to me than aggressive, but maybe that's because i've never really played the deck)... maybe a mono-red goblin list? Some type of FoW-less merfolk deck?

While I might be pleased to see these launching, i wish they had included some other options instead of just 2.

[DragoFireheart]

If you don't believe me about this, just read the Terms of Service for Magic Online, it is explicitely stated that WotC can at any time cancel your account for any reason they see fit without notice and that you are forbidden from making a new account if they do so and that you lose access to all cards on your old account if they do this. So yeah.

This is why I will NEVER play MTGO.

[rockout]

You would have to do something pretty gross for them to enact a policy like that. Even if you dropped the N bomb a million times in chat you'd just lose chat privledges not get banned. If you tried to hack the system and exploit a glitch of some kind for monetary gain then you might be looking at failing.

[Lorgalis]

But I feel like you, many people would play MTGO for Legacy if they can get a little unpowered deck for over $30.

Yes. I think I'm going to make the jump. I play goyf & taxes in paper magic, so this is a good starting point.

[gravemind123]

I noticed in the opening post of this thread it mentions that due to the reserve list they won't print these in paper. After looking back at the decks, none of the cards in either are on the reserved list. Everything old enough to be from that time period is either an uncommon(Karakas, Factory, StP, Price of Progress) or a common(Chain Lightning, Fireblast, Pyroblast) and thus not covered by the list. This means these decks could both technically be printed in paper.


More on topic I'm considering picking up the Exiler deck as I already have all the cards from the burn list online, but I would really like something that isn't Sligh/Burn to play in Legacy on MTGO. I really like this idea though of having decks that are almost complete and tournament ready available for easy purchase.

[Gocho]

If anyone wants to buy the decks, please, doesn't pay with paypal.
I paid it 7 hours ago, and I'm still waiting that wizards sends the deck :(

[Lorgalis]

Gocho, that's strange. However, I paid by Credit card (the "Exiler" one) and received it instantly.

Btw, you could PM your MtGo nick so we can play some games online. ;)

Ah! and the decks are cool. I can't speak for the Burn deck, but being a paper magic Goyf&Taxes player, I think that the "Exiler" is pretty neat. I mean, with a little investment you can make a competitive deck. I hope they're a sale success so we keep getting more. As it seems that Wizards doesn't support too much the paper magic Legacy community, it would be great to receive some love in the digital platform at least.

[Gocho]

Another player told me that he must email Wizards because he didn't receive his deck after 48 hours, paying with Paypal. I must wait another day.

I use the same MTGO nick, every sourcer is welcome to play, but for the moment I only have a Burn deck :)
I have spend some TIX buying more cards so I can reach a decent Burn deck.

[addaro]

Hi guys,

what is a decent burn deck? What are the ways you can upgrade this one? (want to buy it too) - I mean splash white for Boros style, stay mono red or what? Thanks

[Gocho]

You can enter in the Burn thread, search for a good list and buy the cards.
Lavamancer + Fetchs are a must have, but you can wait a little and buy them when you feel ok with MTGO interface.

[TFD]

Has anybody tested these two decks against one another? Because, frankly, these or slight variations of these are going to be the MTGO legacy metagame in a few days. Knowing which one of these is a leg up against the other major deck in the format would be helpful in finding which to buy.

[Sims]

Has anybody tested these two decks against one another? Because, frankly, these or slight variations of these are going to be the MTGO legacy metagame in a few days. Knowing which one of these is a leg up against the other major deck in the format would be helpful in finding which to buy.

Straight from the box the D&T deck has an edge over the burn deck simply due to the fact that it can be difficult to race a Jitte + 4 Kor Firewalkers post board when you have no way of destroying them in the burn deck.

This balance, however, can change after starting to edit the decks appropriately.

[imanujakku]

i think its impressive they managed to put together two semi competitive decks without reprinting any money rares. granted the DnT becomes better with wastelands but the burn deck is pretty close to done.

i wish they had these when i was getting into legacy online. its a nice way to learn the format at low cost. i have no problem spending money when i know what im doing but i wasted a lot of money early on trying to assemble decks from scratch and ended up with mostly complete version of about 4 different tier 1.5 decks lol.