[Discussion]TES...a real replacement for ANT?

[Finn]

I see a lot of tournament reports from TES players right now. At the extreme risk of starting the wrong kind of discussion, can I get some general opinions on its station in the metagame right now. How about other combo decks? Which ones are good against Merfolk, Countertop, etc? How about a broad view of the format from some folks? Weigh in, won't you?

[ummon]

Countertop is becoming less common in the T8s thanks to the near disappearance of ANT. This has caused TES to be viable, and it is now a fairly common T8 deck. Unlike ANT, however, TES requires a lot of skill to play, so it won't get broad popularity like ANT had. I doubt we'll see a Reanimator resurgence. Sneak Attack/Show and Tell has some poor matchups, so it will remain infrequent. I think Survival Madness will be the premier combo deck for a while, with TES also being a significant force

[Pulp_Fiction]

It depends greatly on the player. DDFT is by far the best combo deck in the format. But since there are very few people who can play it correctly, it will never see many top 8s. TES is a suitable replacement for ANT since it is not that difficult and uses similar strategies. The problem a lot of Saito ANT players will have is that they now have .... options. TES requires much more decision making than ANT and simple plays may not be that simple. TES is by no means difficult to play after you understand the mechanics of the deck and how it works, but it does get a lot tougher than ANT ever did.

IMOP the only real storm combo decks viable are TES and DDFT variants. I think the Ari Lax list is shit and David Mayer (the guy who won the 5K in Atlanta) brought it up to the local tournament a few times with quite varied results. TES is a little more consistent and more explosive than a combo list running Grim Tutor in Legacy! But TES greatly suffers in the CB matchups. Merfolk in general are a walk in the park if you play Swarm in the side and get sub-par draws. But CB is not a good matchup for TES at all. This is the honest truth, I have played against CB at least 6-8 times with newer DDFT lists and I have yet to lose a match. You are also a little worse against Merfolk but the differences in matchup percentages would be something along the lines of 10%. Same with Landstill, while a matchup I love playing, TES is a little better here as well. Again, not a LOT better, but they do have a higher win percentage.

So it depends on what kind of decks you consistently encounter. Against blue in general I think DDFT is a lot better, but TES is much easier to play and better in the Landstill and Merfolk matchups.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I agree with Pulp_Fiction here, and for what it's worth DDFT is much more fun to obsessively goldfish than TES.

As for TES's position in the meta, basically it breaks down to this.

-It's bad matchups are Countertop and anything with CotV and 3sphere (i.e. Stax, Chalice Aggro, Stompy, etc.)
-People don't normally play Stax or Chalice decks due to their status as meta-decks
-Sometimes the fishies knock out Countertop from the winner's bracket and storm combo flies through the rest
-People still aren't prepared for storm combo, and when they are, their sideboards lack cards against other bad matchups
-People decide to run zero cards against storm combo because the matchup is that bad, and because they'd rather up their win percentages against other matchups

And when Bryant Cook eats buffalo chicken, you might have to poo later.

That's TES's position in the meta.

[Gocho]

Don't forget that playing TES you can play 2x DD+ Shelldock + Emrakul combo in the SB, so you can side it in vs CB decks siding out Ad Nauseam.
It wastes some slots, but makes the CB match up very easy.

But yes, TES is a real replacement for ANT, but it needs more skill than Saito's ANT.


IMOP the only real storm combo decks viable are TES and DDFT variants.

I thought like you until 4th player from Spain won last weekend a 293 players tournament in Madrid with Ur Spring Tide. He was the only player with 8-1-0 in the Swiss.

We are waiting for the TOP16 lists.

[Bahamuth]

I disagree that DDFT is the best combo deck at the moment. Counterbalance is almost entirely absent (and it should be with all the Goblins and Merfolk running around). TES does better against pretty much the entire rest of the metagame. TES is also better at dealing with random hate because of it's speed.

[Finn]

I thought TES generally had more defense capabilities. Bahamuth, are you saying that the Doomsday decks have more than TES?

Also, Spring Tide? Really?

[Bryant Cook]

And when Bryant Cook eats buffalo chicken, you might have to poo later.

This is very true.

Something that isn't mentioned very often is why has TES lasted so long? It's been around since Nausea for those of you who remember that deck. TES has the flexibility to change in order to win in any metagame. I don't see TES leaving anytime soon either, it'll become less popular over time, but it'll still be played.

ANT had some space to change, but it was less flexible than TES since it lacked being able to use all five colors in order overcome challenges. For example, TES can sideboard in Xantid Swarms against Merfolk/Maddness in order to win while still being a four color maindeck.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Being 5c is what I enjoy most about TES. I've tinkered with the "New ANT" builds and well, and it's not the same.

Put simply:

TES is a box of 64 Crayolas, where ANT is one those shitty crayon boxes the little kiddies get at Applebees. With TES, you know you have plenty of colors to work with, but with ANT all you do is wonder how the hell you're supposed to make a fucking red penguin without the proper crayon.

On an ironic end note. I like attacking with Goblins. Empty the Warrens does that for me. What's even more weird is that when I do play non-combo decks.. I play goblins.. :eyebrow:

[ummon]

I thought TES generally had more defense capabilities. Bahamuth, are you saying that the Doomsday decks have more than TES?

Also, Spring Tide? Really?

Spring Tide has an even worse CB matchup. However, nobody in Europe plays CB, so it is certainly a viable deck there.

[Bahamuth]

I thought TES generally had more defense capabilities. Bahamuth, are you saying that the Doomsday decks have more than TES?

Also, Spring Tide? Really?

I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean protection? TES usually runs 7-8 and DDFT 6-7, but DDFT runs at least 4 more cantrips (Top), so it's generally better at beating lots of counters.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean protection? TES usually runs 7-8 and DDFT 6-7, but DDFT runs at least 4 more cantrips (Top), so it's generally better at beating lots of counters.

I think he's referring to a Burning Wish toolbox to combat hate because not all DDFT builds run Burning Wish.

[Pulp_Fiction]

True, but thats why I said variants. Because DDFT is generally a U/B/x deck. But there are so many different variations that it is ridiculous. TES variants are basically just more/less acceleration and more/less lands. Now in terms of flexibility, IMOP DDFT has TES crushed. We can now with without storm. Now some TES builds run the Emrakul plan in the board but I personally am not a big fan of doing that, I feel it weakens some other matchups that it shouldn't. But either way, DDFT can now win the following ways pre-board:

Shelldock Emrakul
Tendrils
Empty the Warrens
Helm Shot

All the while still running 8 Rits, 4 Petal, and 4 LEDs for speed. The new lists that run Burning Wish are truly sick. And as far as fighting through hate goes, DDFT is way more versatile and better IMOP. Since you not only have the options available to answer that hate easily, but you can also just adapt to the hate card (including Null Rod) and win through them without answering them. That is what is so great, you no longer care about your opponent's hate cards since you can just basically play right through them. A great example of this is recently I played through a turn 2 Teeg with a turn 4 Grapeshot kill (didn't even have BWish in my hand), didn't need to answer it. That same tournament my opponent played a turn 2 Runed Halo naming Tendrils with a Karakas in play so I then he got Grapeshot for 1,000,000. I also could have made 10 goblin tokens but chose to wait a turn and win on the spot. It is basically impossible for the opponent to hate out EVERY strategy that DDFT employs. TES HAS to answer Teeg and Cannonist before comboing off, DDFT does not. Which deck is better is irrelevant (although I clearly prefer DDFT), both are totally viable, it depends on the player. But I am just saying DDFT has a lot more options in dealing with hate cards and is a lot more versatile.

[Bryant Cook]

You sir have forgotten something. TES is much faster than DDFT which is one of the reasons people tend to choose it. Don't give me crap about how they're about the same speed because they're not. DDFT spends a lot of time topping where TES just goes for their throat.

TES is less vulnerable to hate than DDFT in my opinion. TES players don't have to worry about their life as much (Doomsday), Stifle (Fetches, Top), Needle/Grip (Top), or Wasteland (Shelldock).

If you want to do cute tricks play DDFT, if you want to win play TES.

[ummon]

You sir have forgotten something. TES is much faster than DDFT which is one of the reasons people tend to choose it. Don't give me crap about how they're about the same speed because they're not. DDFT spends a lot of time topping where TES just goes for their throat.

TES is less vulnerable to hate than DDFT in my opinion. TES players don't have to worry about their life as much (Doomsday), Stifle (Fetches, Top), Needle/Grip (Top), or Wasteland (Shelldock).

If you want to do cute tricks play DDFT, if you want to win play TES.

This. And if you want to do cute tricks, better still play Solidarity instead. :P

[Pulp_Fiction]

Strongly disagree but I'm not going to argue w u about speed. Being 1- 1 1/2 turns faster ... you can have that title. TES is faster than DDFT .... so. If racing hate is such a good option Belcher should be totally awesome. Its all preference though, we will agree to disagree. I think a combo deck that consistently kills turns 2-4 is fast enough, where as TES is something like 2-3. Turn 1 kills are not that common in TES, I would say maybe 15% of the time, it happens but not a lot. I find that it is a consistent 2-3 deck. However, in mentioning Top hurting speed, it also makes mulligans hurt WAY less.

But your comments on cute tricks and life are totally off base. In order to win with DDFT you need a minimum of 2 life ALL the time (you don't always win with DD anyway). If you stumble in the beginning ... who cares, you have 0 reliance on AdN or EtW to get there (even though EtW is an option). TES is very reliant on life points w/ AdN and IGG loop requires: BW, IT, LED, LED, and 1R to get going all while relying on Ponder and BS sculpt your hand there. TES is also WAY more vulnerable to a Stifle on the fetch since you only run 12-14 lands. And as far as the cute tricks go, each one of them wins the game effectively and your opponent now needs ALL of the aforementioned hate cards to stop all my different plans.

I think u are missing the whole versatility thing, plus all of those cards you mentioned work great against TES except for Grip, which really doesn't matter that much. I have Top KGripped all the time, it rarely results in a loss. Stifle on your fetches and storm cards is just as effective. Needle on Scalding Tarn can also hurt. But again preference. Each has merits and pitfalls, I just think TES has more pitfalls than DDFT does.

EDIT: @ummon: Doesn't that deck just lose to CB and have problems consistently beating Goblins?

[morgan_coke]

Is this a troll topic?

ANT replaced TES and DDFT because its faster and more straightforward to play. With tutor being gone hurting ANT so much, its only natural that the previously dominant combo decks in legacy would resume their place.

What the hell man. Think before you post stuff. Unless this is a troll topic, like the one question whether Negator or Drinker of Sorrow is the better sui-beater. In that case, good job.

[median]

I think what matters here is that I'll only ever be able to play DDFT competitively is if I get enough skill with the deck to make doomsday piles for two or three days straight days, and that that is whats stopping the majority of interested players from doing the same.
While TES is an extremely fast, versatile, and fun deck; and is about as fast as and has more resilience than belcher.
These factors are whats probably contributing to TES' success. I still really like DDFT, It's just too difficult for me to play at the moment.

[AriLax]

1. On DDFT, I'll say the same thing I always do.

Every time I see someone Doomsday, one of 3 issues arises:

A. You take a turn post Doomsday to win. This is bad because you die.
B. You have to have a Top in play. This is bad as you are a 2 card combo now instead of a Storm deck.
C. You can't crack LED. This is bad because it means your Black Lotus is worse.

I'm currently goldfishing with the most updated list to see if I'm wrong, but most of the points have rang true plus the whole issue with LDV I had in Storm in that it 100% meant you were killing next turn.

Edit: Yeah, significantly worse at actually winning on 3, plus most hands felt tight on mana due to the lack of real cantrips (Top doesn't actually get you anywhere without DI time) and all the lands die to Wasteland.

2. As for non-storm combo decks:

Belcher/SI/other all in decks: The whole no outs to Force aspect of these decks is very unappealing, as is the whole "on the draw, opponent casts Duress" issue.

Emrakul/Aluren/Hypergenesis/any other Force combo deck: Force is not actually better at beating counters than Duresses. It's marginally better against targeted hate cards, but so is just bashing them with Duresses or winning before they cast them, which most of these decks suck at. The main incentive is that these decks don't get colded by a CB-Top or things like Leyline, but they do so at the expense of being dead to simple things like possibly Wild Nacatls when on the draw or Karakas.

3. Between the 5C, UBR, and 2C/UBg builds:

5C has Chant, which is a edge in the mirror (maybe, I'm not actually sold that it is really better than a million Duresses + playing more card draw to better combo off smaller hands). The main issues I have with it are A) you can randomly get Wasted out and B) spinning the Diminishing Returns wheel is miserable.

UBg never loses to Wasteland/Dazes like 5C can sometimes due to the extra lands and Cabal Ritual, but is worse against CB-Top as it can't slam down Goblins and go. This list also is much better at actually Tendrilsing them, with most games ending when you know they are dead instead of them being ~70% to lose. The increased ability of the deck to skip the middle man of Diminishing Returns, AdN, or IGG gives it a bit more inevitability. It is also just cold to G1 hate.

3C retains some of the mana stability (but not all) of UBg by upping the fetch count while not being cold to G1 hate and having access to the Empty plan.

As far as I can tell the lists are pretty close on when they kill, with the UB deck being very slightly behind as it loses some T2 Ad Naus kills due to being worse at winning off Ad Naus with 0 floating.

I'm probably underestimating the Empty the Warrens kill, so add that to the above.

[emidln]

1. On DDFT, I'll say the same thing I always do.

Every time I see someone Doomsday, one of 3 issues arises:

A. You take a turn post Doomsday to win. This is bad because you die.


The only times Doomsday is passing the turn is in situations where it won't die because the opponent has no outs (Emrakul pile with Wipe Away) or they're a dumb aggro deck that's about to lose to IGG next turn and can't likely deal 8-10 in a single turn.



B. You have to have a Top in play. This is bad as you are a 2 card combo now instead of a Storm deck.


I guess all of those times I won off Brainstorm (play 4), Ponder (play 4), Preordain (play 2), Meditate (play 1), Ideas Unbound off Burning Wish (play 4), and hellbent Infernal Tutor (play 2-3) never happened. I'll try limiting myself more and see where that takes me...



C. You can't crack LED. This is bad because it means your Black Lotus is worse.


You crack LED all the time. This deck is better at abusing LED than anything else in the format. The point of Doomsday is to find the best spells in your deck. LED is central to most of your piles because it's the best mana producer in the format.


I'm currently goldfishing with the most updated list to see if I'm wrong, but most of the points have rang true plus the whole issue with LDV I had in Storm in that it 100% meant you were killing next turn.

LDV doesn't actually mean that you're killing next turn, particularly in a deck with 4 Top and 12 other cantrips. I actually wrote about this in my original Fetchland Tendrils primer years ago. It was extremely common to use LDV + rituals/LEDs and a cantrip (SDT is most common because it's always around) as a pseudo-Infernal Tutor to either find IGG if you have something juicy in yard (like Wish or IT) or to just grab IT if you can spare the 2 mana. I mean, if you do resolve it end step, you're basically guaranteed the "untap, win" turn.

The last time I played DDFT on mtgo, I didn't actually run LDV (this is partially due to LDV being buggy on mtgo). My config was something like 3-4 Wish, 2-3 Infernal Tutor, 3 DD with 14 cantrips (4 SDT/BS/Ponder, 2 Preordain) and lots of LED/Dark Rit/Cabal Rit.

For what it's worth, if I was going to a major event tomorrow, I'd be playing 3c TES with a million duress effects and sideboard Xantid Swarms and Chain of Vapors. I like DDFT as a deck, but as I mentioned in my response to Ari's UB ANT primer, DDFT is best at being fast enough to beat aggro while beating up control decks. Control decks, particularly CB have been pushed to the wayside in the current metagame due to the dominance of Merfolk and Madness. It doesn't make sense to ignore the power of Ad Nauseam when you can just address your sketchy (and Merfolk and Madness aren't even that bad preboard) matchups with Xantid Swarm, the other matchups with Chain of Vapor/Echoing Truth + infinite duress for any hate and call it a day.

[Antonius]

I think the recent success of TES is more due to the rise of Vengevine, and the way Vengevine crushes CB.

As a side note, I have to say, beating TES and Doomsday with Land Destruction is a lot easier than beating ANT was. Good job on hitting up Mystical, wizards! =)

[maxflow2]

The latest SCG Open had an ANT list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35417) in the top 16. Albeit with an... unconventional sideboard. It also seems very short on tutors.

I think the rise of TES lately has been the result of three things: the deck was hurt a lot less from the loss of Mystical than other storm variants, people are packing less hate for storm than they were before the ban, and the increasing number of Survival and Merfolk decks have been beating up on Counterbalance decks that haven't been tuned for the new metagame.

I personally prefer storm decks with red for Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens (TES variants), but I think that UB, UBw, and UBg are all just as viable and might even be a better choice depending on the metagame. I know a lot of people swear by their Doomsday brews, but I've never been a fan as I feel that the DD plan just slows the deck down (it often requires more mana, forces you to play top, hold cantrips in hand...) and that Doomsday often has a "danger of cool things" effect on people. That's not to say it isn't viable - the Shelldock Isle into Emrakul plan is sweet against decks without Wasteland, and the uncertainty of AN is significant - but I don't think the gains eclipse the losses overall.