[Article] Fighting Survival of the Fittest

[frogboy]

The six-page thread in Format Discussion where people are discussing how much of a problem Survival currently is led me to write an article about it:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20323_Ideas_Unbound_The_Survival_of_the_Fittest_Problem_And_How_to_Fight_It.html

[Nessaja]

Pretty well laid out. I agree with your conclusions.

You only examined the already common answers that legacy uses though. I see no mention of Nature's Claim, which works wonders against Survival as well.

[ummon]

This is probably a stupid question but could you explain to me why Perish doesn't kill a Wild Mongrel?

[testing32]

This is probably a stupid question but could you explain to me why Perish doesn't kill a Wild Mongrel?

b/c wild mongrel can change color?

[QQQ]

So if I'm reading right; the gist of the article is:

Survival is good.

Spell Snare counters spells with a converted mana cost of two.

Pithing Needle prevents the activated abilities of the card named when Needle enters the Battlefield.

Perish kills Green creatures.

Survival costs two, has an activated ability, and uses a lot of Green creatures. So these cards might help against it.



Allrighty. Good tip.

[yankeedave]

So if I'm reading right; the gist of the article is:

Survival is good.

Spell Snare counters spells with a converted mana cost of two.

Pithing Needle prevents the activated abilities of the card named when Needle enters the Battlefield.

Perish kills Green creatures.

Survival costs two, has an activated ability, and uses a lot of Green creatures. So these cards might help against it.



Allrighty. Good tip.

Yeah, they get paid by the word, so that wouldn't have worked. That's why Mendenian always wrote 30 pages...

[Bardo]

Yeah, they get paid by the word, so that wouldn't have worked. That's why Mendenian always wrote 30 pages...

Unless they've changed their model (and I don't see why they would since they wouldn't be able to budget accurately), SCG articles are payable on a flat-fee basis.

Write 15K words or 2K words -- you get paid the same. Some people just take longer to say what they want to say.

[ButtholeMcGhee]

So if I'm reading right; the gist of the article is:

Survival is good.

Spell Snare counters spells with a converted mana cost of two.

Pithing Needle prevents the activated abilities of the card named when Needle enters the Battlefield.

Perish kills Green creatures.

Survival costs two, has an activated ability, and uses a lot of Green creatures. So these cards might help against it.



Allrighty. Good tip.

You show frogboy some respect. He wins a lot of really big tournaments. And his Legacy articles about what decks are currently good, and about the metagame are always spot-on. You should be thankful.

[nitewolf9]

I certainly think Spell Snare's stock has gone up recently. I never thought that card was good enough to main deck but it seems that, along with survival, Merfolk lists are getting a bit clogged at the 2 drop slot and the use of mana critters is the one thing that turns me off to spell pierce in the survival matchup.

[lebarion]

So if I'm reading right; the gist of the article is:

Survival is good.

Spell Snare counters spells with a converted mana cost of two.

Pithing Needle prevents the activated abilities of the card named when Needle enters the Battlefield.

Perish kills Green creatures.

Survival costs two, has an activated ability, and uses a lot of Green creatures. So these cards might help against it.



Allrighty. Good tip.

Seems obviously, doesn't it?
And still, there's a currently 11-page long thread arguing that it should be banned.
Oh, and maybe it is not mantioned, but Survival is also an enchantment, and there is a card or two to handle enchantmments.

[HerrFunker]

good article only thing I see missing is in decks that have a positive matchup you need Enchantress. I could see it rising in popularity if Vengevival keeps this up.

[ummon]

b/c wild mongrel can change color?

Ahh. It was a stupid question. I'd never noticed the second part of the ability until you pointed it out today.

[bleuisforwhimps]

I didn't see hibernation in there and it should be, it's an enormous tempo-loss for them, especially against UGMadness, faerie maccabre is also quite good and your not losing tempo there.

[SMR0079]

Nice work. Although I think you missed a key archetype.

Blue mages need to drop counterbalance and switch to a more tempo based strategy. A controling version of Team America is the strongest (stupid name for a BUG deck). My list currently has 14 answers to a turn 2 Survival with Extirpate and Grip in the board. It also beats Storm ;)

Good luck with WoTC!

[Mana Drain]

I certainly think Spell Snare's stock has gone up recently. I never thought that card was good enough to main deck but it seems that, along with survival, Merfolk lists are getting a bit clogged at the 2 drop slot and the use of mana critters is the one thing that turns me off to spell pierce in the survival matchup.

Spell Snare is amazing right now. Unless you're playing Merfolk or Madness, and you still play blue, run some. You *will* see positive results.

[Amon Amarth]

I think one of the bigger problems with Survival is that many people don't know how to play against the archetype. It certainly doesn't help that there are so many variants that all play very differently from each other. But I think there are a couple of excellent points to take away from this article:

1. Vengevine Survival is really meh without an early SotF. If they can't resolve it or it gets blown up by Pridemage, Grip, or Nature's Claim... well Basking Rootwallas are much cuter than they are at beating down.

2. GY hate isn't terrible but your mileage may vary. I like REALLY like Extirpate though because it turns the deck back into regular Madness which is much easier to deal with.

Watch out for NO-Pro out of the board to dodge your hate. Do these things and your golden.

[Whippoorwill]

I think one of the bigger problems with Survival is that many people don't know how to play against the archetype. It certainly doesn't help that there are so many variants that all play very differently from each other. But I think there are a couple of excellent points to take away from this article:

1. Vengevine Survival is really meh without an early SotF. If they can't resolve it or it gets blown up by Pridemage, Grip, or Nature's Claim... well Basking Rootwallas are much cuter than they are at beating down.

2. GY hate isn't terrible but your mileage may vary. I like REALLY like Extirpate though because it turns the deck back into regular Madness which is much easier to deal with.

Watch out for NO-Pro out of the board to dodge your hate. Do these things and your golden.

1. I disagree. I've pulled off turn 3 and 4 kills without Survival. Wild Mongrel/Aquamoeba + Vine(s) + Rootwalla is a very strong turn 2 play, especially after a turn 1 Hierarch. And those Rootwallas are more than just cute when they have Hierarchs pumping them.

2. I agree that Extirpate is the best form of graveyard hate against the deck. I can work around Crypt/Relic/Leyline, but not Extirpate.

And like others said, I don't see why Spell Snare isn't run more since it affects just about every deck if not all of them.

[Amon Amarth]

1. I disagree. I've pulled off turn 3 and 4 kills without Survival. Wild Mongrel/Aquamoeba + Vine(s) + Rootwalla is a very strong turn 2 play, especially after a turn 1 Hierarch. And those Rootwallas are more than just cute when they have Hierarchs pumping them.


That can happen but I would say that's not the norm, and even then that is a hell of a lot easier for any deck to deal with than being zerged by Vengevines. Also, no one is scared of taking four a turn from a pumped Rootwalla. And every Rootwalla you play makes it that much harder to Combo out on your opponent as well.

I do agree about Spell Snare. I would say up until recently that Spell Pierce was the better option but Spell Snare is silly good against Vengevine Survival that it definitely should see more MD play.

[kiblast]

spell snare currently hits:

jitte
confidants
goyf
sotf/mongrel/fauna shaman
tourach
sinkhole
counterspell
Infernal tutor
Lord of atlantis/coralhelm commander/silvergill adept

You don't need to play against UG madness to understand that spell snare is one of the best answers in the legacy environment.It is already nuts versus 90% of the metagame. So you can't say ''ok, madness is very good, survival is broken, maybe i'll drop spell pierces for some spell snares'' because spell snare should have been in your maindeck since before UGvengevival appeared, because meta demands so.If you play blue (except 'folk) and don't maindeck at least 3, start considering chess and quit magic...

[Jonathan Alexander]

spell snare currently hits:

jitte
confidants
goyf
sotf/mongrel/fauna shaman
tourach
sinkhole
counterspell
Infernal tutor
Lord of atlantis/coralhelm commander/silvergill adept

You don't need to play against UG madness to understand that spell snare is one of the best answers in the legacy environment.It is already nuts versus 90% of the metagame. So you can't say ''ok, madness is very good, survival is broken, maybe i'll drop spell pierces for some spell snares'' because spell snare should have been in your maindeck since before UGvengevival appeared, because meta demands so.If you play blue (except 'folk) and don't maindeck at least 3, start considering chess and quit magic...

I certainly don't agree here. About half of this stuff gets also hit by Spell Pierce, which hits a lot more important cards like planeswalkers, Force Of Will, Engineered Explosives, Humility, Moat, Natural Order and removal in general. You have to think about what you need to counter. There are definitely decks where Spell Snare is better, but there are also decks where Spell Pierce is better. In Canadian Thresh Spell Snare is better, in Team America Spell Pierce is better. In BUG Tempo Threshold I'd play both, whereas in most control-decks Spell Snare is way better in general.
Anyway, I agree with Extirpate being the best piece of graveyard hate against Survival, at least when backed up with an anctual clock. It's awesome in tempo decks, since it basically slows them down two turns, which is like ten more damage from Tombstalker. Faerie Macabre is probably the best answer for nonblack decks, at least as long as they need an aswer.
Hibernation is another good card and way better than Perish. But Hibernation costs three mana which is quite much. I'd rather play Pithing Needle or Extirpate. Or well, countermagic.

[kiblast]

I certainly don't agree here. About half of this stuff gets also hit by Spell Pierce, which hits a lot more important cards like planeswalkers, Force Of Will, Engineered Explosives, Humility, Moat, Natural Order and removal in general. You have to think about what you need to counter. There are definitely decks where Spell Snare is better, but there are also decks where Spell Pierce is better. In Canadian Thresh Spell Snare is better, in Team America Spell Pierce is better. In BUG Tempo Threshold I'd play both, whereas in most control-decks Spell Snare is way better in general.


and Counterspell hits all this stuff, what's your point?

first you say that you don't agree to my point, wich roughly was : ''If you play blue, maindeck at least 3 spell snare, because it's broken.''
And then you say ''whereas in most control-decks (wich are decks WHO PLAY BLUE, to my knowledge) Spell Snare is way better in general.'' good way to contradict yourself.

Sure there are moments in wich spell pierce is better. I was just saying that snare is overall a very versatile card, and anyone playing blue should consideer it....

BTW, the best way to fight SOTF are 3-4 extirpate in sb and countermagic.K grip is sometimes rather slow, unless you counter their first SOTF and gain tempo.

[Jonathan Alexander]

and Counterspell hits all this stuff, what's your point?
My point is that neither is strictly better than the other and therefore not all blue decks should pack at least three copies of Spell Snare.


first you say that you don't agree to my point, wich roughly was : ''If you play blue, maindeck at least 3 spell snare, because it's broken.''
And then you say ''whereas in most control-decks (wich are decks WHO PLAY BLUE, to my knowledge) Spell Snare is way better in general.'' good way to contradict yourself.
In control decks Spell Snare is usually better, in most other decks, it isn't. In Merfolk for example, Spell Pierce is way better. In my opinion, it's generally better in tempo-decks.


Sure there are moments in wich spell pierce is better. I was just saying that snare is overall a very versatile card, and anyone playing blue should consideer it....
No, you said that "If you play blue (except 'folk) and don't maindeck at least 3, start considering chess and quit magic...", but if you just meant that it should always be considered in blue decks, we agree about that.


BTW, the best way to fight SOTF are 3-4 extirpate in sb and countermagic.K grip is sometimes rather slow, unless you counter their first SOTF and gain tempo.
I think we agree here aswell. Extirpate is awesome in the current meta.

[Arsenal]

Most tempo decks do not run actual removal spells. For this reason alone, I'd say Spell Snare should get the nod.

[Dark Ritual]

Against survivine all you should care about countering is the survival. If you counter their only survival they are a very mediocre beatdown deck that hardcasts a single vengevine for a whopping four mana whereas tarmogoyf costs 2 mana. It also doesn't help that vengevine dies to bolt so against tempo decks that's typically GG's because they killed your only threat now I'll run in with my mongoose/goyf and beat your face in because you have some rootwalla's and hierarch's on your side but nothing else to deal with my creatures.

Also spell snare should get the nod because later in the game spell pierce can become dead assuming you don't have FoW in hand because they can pay the 2 mana associated with pierce.

[Waikiki]

I find it awkward people talk about beating survival as one deck while beating survival doesnt have the same outcome in various decklists. I remember my GP Madrid opponent day 2 boarded in 4 leyline and 4 extirpate to beat my Bant survival deck. Which led into an easy 2-0 win since I didnt even tried in resolving survival anymore.

Where the UG madness deck is way more dependant on survival I can imagine its more easy to beat when survival is down.

GW Survival also doesn't need to go the survival route to win. But it does slow it down.

[Whippoorwill]

It also doesn't help that vengevine dies to bolt so against tempo decks that's typically GG's because they killed your only threat now I'll run in with my mongoose/goyf and beat your face in because you have some rootwalla's and hierarch's on your side but nothing else to deal with my creatures.

Also spell snare should get the nod because later in the game spell pierce can become dead assuming you don't have FoW in hand because they can pay the 2 mana associated with pierce.

Bolt on Vengevine is laughable considering it will just come back unless you have a way to get rid of it in the graveyard.

And Rootwalla has the same p/t as Mongoose when pumped. Rootwalla costs mana, but Mongoose and Goyf are dependant on your graveyard and most decks run some form of graveyard hate which can make/keep your creatures small.

[Hawdes]

Bolt on Vengevine is laughable considering it will just come back unless you have a way to get rid of it in the graveyard.

And Rootwalla has the same p/t as Mongoose when pumped. Rootwalla costs mana, but Mongoose and Goyf are dependant on your graveyard and most decks run some form of graveyard hate which can make/keep your creatures small.

So you're saying that Rootwalla is too good, and better than Mongoose? I doubt it... The mongoose is still superior to Rootwalla any day. It's only a necessary evil in the SotF deck playing VV, and it's mana-hungry like hell. 1G each turn to pump it into 3/3 is a huge mana waste when you can play other spells instead.

[Nidd]

Are people seriously asking for a banning of Rootwalla?

What has this world come to...

[dahcmai]

I found out today that a nice supply of Swords/Path and humility make every version of this deck cry. Who needs grave hate when you can just rule the board.

[Whippoorwill]

So you're saying that Rootwalla is too good, and better than Mongoose? I doubt it... The mongoose is still superior to Rootwalla any day. It's only a necessary evil in the SotF deck playing VV, and it's mana-hungry like hell. 1G each turn to pump it into 3/3 is a huge mana waste when you can play other spells instead.

My point was that saying Survival is essentially doomed when left with Rootwallas when you're beating with a Nimble Mongoose is rather stupid since they pretty much trade in combat. Mongoose being untargetable is obviously nice, but at the end of the day it still dies in combat like just about everything else can. The point would have been fine if it just mentioned Goyf and not Mongoose.

And the mana is only a waste depending on the board position. Early game I agree its generally a waste, but mid-late game you're not going to need that extra mana since most of the stuff in the deck costs 2. And obviously if Survival is out and active you should be using the mana on that.