Answering Survival Vengevine ('oh noes', another thread on this archetype)

[4eak]

My apologies for the self-centeredness of my question -- I really do want to know the answer though. I'm not interested in a ban discussion. I'm not convinced the metagame has exhaustively attempted to answer the deck. For now, let's omit any discussion of: metagame evolution, banlists, predictions about the future of MTG, etc. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, Survival Vengevine is a surpassingly dominant deck we need to answer.

What deck(s) can be built to have a very good matchup against the Survival Vengevine archetype (and its many variants)?

For clarification, I'm not interested in answering Survival Vengevine by playing some mirror-teched variant of Survival Vengevine. I want to play a different deck to answer this archetype.

If it helps, assume (not that this is the reality yet -- so don't hype the question) we are targeting a metagame overrun by Survival Vengevine, particularly UG and GW variants, and if you can't beat this archetype with your deck, you shouldn't be going to the tournament. I want decks that act as metagame foils to Survival Vengevine (I'm well aware of the implications to playing such a specific metagame foil, particularly how these decks often fair poorly against untargeted/random/other decks in the metagame). At the risk of exaggerating the requirements, consider this a similar (although not perfectly parallel) sort of goal to the construction of R/G anti-artifact decks in T2 Affinity era. Note, I'm not interested in mere sideboarding at this point. What should a maindeck prepared for Survival Vengevine look like?

Some may agree that few current decks are can substitute 4-8 hate cards in their maindeck and 'call it day' against a metagame filled with Survival Vengevine. If you've found a current archetype (or one with a tuned maindeck) which has a great matchup against Survival Vengevine, then feel free to post it (entire lists aren't necessary, only substitutions for the unusual/tuned cards).

It is possible that an entirely new archetype would pose the greatest challenge to Survival Vengevine variants. I am also very interested in seeing these.

Test your list(s) (for the love of all that is holy), and if you have had good results, then please post your list(s) and explain yourself. If you claim extraordinary matchup results, and I find them to be implausible after my own testing, then I will laugh at you and say terrible, mean, and trollish things about you (and perhaps "yo' momma") :eek:. Feel free to verify (test) for yourselves your own ideas and to be honest about your results. Obviously, these sorts of restrictions may limit (or obliterate) the chance that I'll get any replies, but I'm going to take that chance in hopes of maximizing the quality of replies.





peace,
4eak

[(nameless one)]

I might be playing with scrubs but I have been having success with Quinn against Vengevine Survival.

StPing their 1st turn Hierarch is always good. Going Chant/Silence on they can buy to time to get that Humility/Moat. Pithing Needle is good against Survival. Runed Halo on Vengevine is always effect. ScepterLock is awesome for the most part.

The way to go though is just keep on stacking the field with all this protection instead of playing too passive. If you know your opponent is playing Vengevine Survival, don't play too passive with the deck. You know whats coming. Games 2 and 3, they will bring Krosan Grip so once again, overloading the field with protection is always good.

The only problem I have with the deck is it doesnt have a good control matchup, which I'm afraid that will start popping out (such as 4c Landstill).

[Koby]

I've been pondering that perhaps a metagame deck would look somewhat like this:

4 Leyline of the Void (shuts out the g/y)
1 Helm of Obedience (for instant win)
4 Enlightened Tutor (to find those pieces)
4 Small Pox
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Serum Powder (to help find Leyline)
4 Dark Confidant
4-8 Duress effects
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
etc

This might not even be good compared to Deadguy Ale style decks, which have access to this type of removal already. The E-tutor package is something that may be worth exploring as it finds numerous solutions to the VV archetype.

[Tacosnape]

Learn a lesson from Steve Sadin at GP Flash. Run Vengevine Survival and tech your deck out to beat every possible variant of the mirror. Vengevine Survival is actually one of the best decks to play against Vengevine Survival. 50-50 is pretty good, and if you're teched for the mirror and can make this 65-35, you've got a deck that beats the best deck and has good matchups against about 80% of the rest of the field.

In fact, that's seriously your best option any time there's a clear "Best deck" running around.

[ummon]

UG Vengevinal and GW Vengevinal are so different that it is hard to find a deck that beats both consistently. If you want to beat UG Vengevinal play Merfolk. If you want to beat GW Vengevinal play TES or any other fast combo.

[Tempus]

Hmm... Survival is a deck highly dependant on the graveyard, at least if they want to kill you fast. They also tend to not run too many counterspells, so fastcombo might be viable.

Or you start with something like:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
20-22 Mana
0-2 Flexslots

[GGoober]

I think that any decks packing Extirpate will have a decent chance against Vengevival. The main broken card is Vengevine, and since Vengevival is built around Vengevine, they can still abuse Survival but not as classic Survival builds that truly seek to abuse Survival. Vengevival is really a deck that abuses Vengevines, so I think cards like Grips/Needles/Crypt only do that much to the deck. Extirpate is going to be key in solving the bulk matchups if you want a chance against Vengevines.

I think decent decks that can put up fights are:
- UWb or UGb or UGbw Landstill POSTBOARD (probably lose bad mainboard unless you run enough snares/EE/pierces)
- Humility/DnT/Quinn because they have ways to stall attacks e.g. Chants etc.
- Combo/Belcher (aggressive variants with Pact of Negation that just wants to go off). Turn 4 Vengevival win isn't going to do much outside of FoW and Stifles so your best bet is to have a combo deck that's dedicated to win on turns 1-2. I'd imagine SI/Belcher are best against Vengevival. TES is resilient but you really don't want to go off after turn 2 when they start dropping hate bear and put on a fast clock with Vengevines.
- Helmline.dec ftw.
- Decks that can ping Noble Hierarch before she taps. Seriously, the deck is only powerful with a starting Hierarch. Without it, it is yet another turn slowerer, so tempo-decks can do decent, but there's a huge risk to playing tempo against all these vengevival decks, one mistake you lose on the spot. But I would imagine a good tempo player beating the crap out of Vengevival because if all the discard outlets are dealt with, they're going to be stuck with bad hands with Vengevines. BUG Tempo Thresh comes to mind, especially with the all-powerful Extirpate against them further improving the matchup.

All in all, I strongly believe that black for extirpate has to be involved. All the other hate-cards hate out Survival, which doesn't really solve the problem since hating out survival has been common practice before. This deck is a different beast, and the true beast is Vengevine, which if you notice, is the reason they run about 8-16 discard outlets. You really just want Vengevines for free, and nothing stops it better than Extirpate (they cannot respond/counter/react, and they'll lose all copies if one hits the yard).

@Taco: I think I agree here. If Vengevival is the dominant deck in the format, it's best to play it since it's hard to hate, and performs well, IMO I realy like the GB Vengevival decks because against the mirror, they brutally murder the mirror with turn 1 discard, and Extirpates against opposing Vengevines while resolving theirs easily. However, I personally don't think I'm that helpless against the Vengevival decks. It's a challenge for Landstill, but there are plenty of other decks in the format with faster than turn 4 clocks. The true problem for Landstill decks are the Vengevines, because you need Extirpate/StP to deal with them. And it makes me emphasize a lot more that Vengevival is not a Survival deck, it's a deck about Vengevines, free 12-16 power, and the best way to get those power is with Survival. The whole strategy is Vengevine, no tutorbox/or no desire to have a tutor package unless the meta is shifting. All GW, UG, GB Vengevival decks play the 5-12th discard outlet outside of Survival, which stresses how important the Vengevine free beats is for the deck.

I'm playing my homebrew Punishing Fire control deck in my meta (no Vengevival) but in a big meta, I'll be packing a UWb landstill list, since it's my firm believe that if you want to beat Vengevines, you need Extirpate, and Landstill has the benefit of already being a strong anti-aggro deck, so once you've dealt with Vengevines, you still have the tools to fight off creatures.

[4eak]

@ (nameless one)

I'll be testing Quinn. Relic has always been borderline playable in the main, and I assume it will be worthwhile in this case (perhaps Pithing Needle should be main as well). Would you provide your list, please?

Other thoughts: Runed Halo/Moat/Humility (despite 4 1/1's recurring) look fairly good here. Scepter lock looks fairly weak against UG, imho. Increased targeted removal seems necessary against Teeg for GW variants as well. Iona/Retainers, if played, is nearly autoloss.


@ rukcus and Tempus

I like your ideas -- they are certainly interesting. Would you be willing to make a complete list and test/tweak it?


@ Tacosnape

I have explicitly asked for a deck which isn't a "mirror-teched variant of Survival Vengevine." I've already worked on what your talking about -- and, until I have anything better, it is certainly the strategy I'd recommend to any player going to a high-end tournament today. That, however, is not the point of my question. I'm asking if anyone can provide me non-Survival Vengevine decks that perform well against Survival Vengevine (I realize this artificially constrains both the deck's construction and the metagame it targets). I'm not claiming it is possible, I'm not convinced just yet, however, it is impossible. A very strong foil (if possible) to Survival Vengevine variants in general really might be worth playing, especially if everyone thinks as you and I have about mirror-teching out Survival Vengevine and/or we expect to see higher numbers of Survival Vengevine. So, I don't consider this a pointless pursuit.


@ ummon


UG Vengevinal and GW Vengevinal are so different that it is hard to find a deck that beats both consistently. If you want to beat UG Vengevinal play Merfolk. If you want to beat GW Vengevinal play TES or any other fast combo.

I agree GW and UW are very different animals; I also think they are both necessary to answer. I think my question can still reasonably stand for now.

I have been testing TES (admittedly, I am not a distinguished player). I'm not very pleased with TES as an outright metagame foil against UG. As you said, GW is favorable, despite the common hate cards they side in. I think it isn't easy to find a combo deck which is strong against both decks (Belcher might actually be better than TES in this particular matchup), and I think we should be looking for decks that answer both variants.


@ Metalwalker

I grant you that Extirpate is a strong card against Vengevine. I've still lost plenty of games even after resolving an Extirpate on Vengevine.


in a big meta, I'll be packing a UWb landstill list, since it's my firm believe that if you want to beat Vengevines, you need Extirpate, and Landstill has the benefit of already being a strong anti-aggro deck, so once you've dealt with Vengevines, you still have the tools to fight off creatures.

In general, against Landstill, I've been favored with my GW and UG Survival Vengevines decks. Very likely, I've not played against the right build of Landstill. Can you post your list, please? (Landstill's viable card pool is wide open enough that I'd rather not guess -- I want to test your list)



peace,
4eak

[Meekrab]

Red chalice aggro with main deck Pithing Needle and 8 Blood Moon effects. Mise at shuffling so you don't lose to mulligans, profit?

[Muradin]

http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=85894

This deck is favored against vengevine decks. Marius Hausmann and me, both played it in several tournaments with 5-7 rounds and did very well with it. By the way it also beats Merfolk, Zoo, Ichorid, Lands and Stompy variants. Counterbalance decks are roughly even and combo is abyssal.

This deck beats UG vengevine by slowing it down with Elephant Grass and winning with Enchantments or by wishing for Peacekeeper. GW Vengevine Survival gets hosed pretty easily once it doesn't have Survival and many opponents tend to board out StoP, not expecting Peacekeeper. If they get Survival, luckily we got Replenish, Sterling Grove and Elephant Grass to slow them down and overcome their Pridemages. Iona gets pwned by Karakas or Living Wish-> Karakas.

This definitely works for us against Vengevine decks and the build is thoroughly tested and refined by actual tournament play.


I link to this crappy site, because deckcheck.net doesn't exist any more.

[GGoober]

This is what I would bring to a meta of Vengevival, granted that it won't always work out the best, kudos to ChiiMagic on the Source for playing Chantstill (he plays UWr, I always preferred UWb Wishstill)

Card-advantage: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill (you can cut the 4th Standstill to streamline to 60cards or put a path in or the 4th Snare if you're really looking at Vengevine meta).
2 Cunning Wish
2 Isochron Scepter

Permission: 10
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Removal/Defense: 9
3 EE
4 StP
2 Orim's Chant

Others/win-conditions: 6
1 Crucible
1 Humility
2 Elspeth
2 Jace

24 Lands:
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
3 Factory
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Delta

SB: 15
3 Perish
3 Negate
4 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Path to Exile
1 Chant
1 ETutor

This is tuned to a Survival/Merfolks meta i.e. expecting that the current trend is seeing the unpopularity of Zoo/Counterbalance decks. I'll explain briefly how the 'unconventional' lists seeks to win and hope to maintain yet a decent mathup against the field.

Firstly, before dismissing the list due to the random 2 Scepter, 2 Chants, test it out. It takes awhile to get used to the playstyle. Scepter-Chant is unexpected game 1 and steal games. Even without Chant, Scepter will be good card advantage until it's dealt with. Assuming and expecting tons of Vengevival, having a soft 'Peacekeeper' lock with Scepter-Chant MD is quite a steal for a control deck that drags games out.

The MD has: 3 EE, 3 Spell Snare, 4 Counterspell, 4 FoW, 4 StP, Humility, 2 Wish->Path/Extirpate/Humility, and all these need to be AIMED at Survival and discard outlets game 1. You cannot afford to risk VVs in the yard because you can't deal with them aside from praying to draw StP, nothing else stops it unless you Wish->ETutor->Humility. The early game can be rough, but I recommend StPing Hierarchs (i.e. don't waste counters on hierarchs), Snare Mongrels/Survival, and if it does come through, then look into protecting your Wish with Fow to grab either ETutor for humility or Extirpate depending on how they are going off. You want to slow them down as much as you can (i.e. hitting Survival/discard) and do that until they finally get the engine up unless you're doing a great job at stopping them, but if they do get the engine up finally mid-game, you have your wish->extirpate to seal the game up, or at least stabilize a little with Planeswalkers.

Note that 2 Scepter is solid and well positioned in my opinion. If you get a Scepter + StP, VV are no longer scary. They have to grab Trygon/Pridemage to deal with it, at which you need to FoW/Counter, even then it would have bought you a turn for them to spend 3 mana on Pridemage + Activation, and hopefully you have dug into a Wish/Humility etc.

Postboard, I do: -2 Standstill -1 Crucible -2 Wish for +4 Extirpate + 1 Path, or keep 1 Extirpate/Path in the SB for additional Peacekeepers depending on which builds they are going. I'm suspecting in due time, Peacekeeper won't be a good soluation since these decks will have noted their weakness and probably add a MD answer to it (Since they will try to resolve Survival). But at this point, your Extirpates will really stop VV, and the rest of the deck can be dealt with the package of: 3 EE, 4 StP, Humility, 2 Chant, 2 Scepter.

Don't forget that you can imprint StP/Path/Extirpate on Chant, which is quite bad-news to the Survival player aka Extirpate + Chant shuts down Survival to a large extent indirectly.

Scepter-Chant is a very unconventional build. John Knapp (ChiiMagic) is the main pilot that does well with it. I've picked it up for 2 months at my meta and have done well. I'm taking a break from it exploring other avenues, but IMO, Scepter is just a solid card in Landstill. There are 20% of games where I found it clunky aka a turn too slow, but if it sticks in play for more than a turn, you are already profitting from the initial investment. Most aggro decks simply cannot deal with StP on Scepter, yet alone Chant on Scepter. Note that Survival will bring in Grips, which is why I stress that you need to consider how they're boarding before you decide if you want Scepters in as additional Grip targets (don't forget you run ruins), so that your EEs/Humility can have more power, or you can board Scepters out and get Peacekeepers killing their Grip strategies. I personally don't know how to board but probably depending on which version of Vengevival they play.

If there is something terribly wrong with my list, please let me know, since I do want to improve on it. This is just my opinion on what I would bring. UGBw Landstill is even more potent, but I prefer the stability of 3-color builds, and I feel Scepter Chant gives you an overall great matchup across varying decks. Chant game 1 can catch a TES player by surprise, and you can Chant->Jace to resolve against opposing permission decks. There are a lot of uses of Chant I won't get into detail, and I used to think 2 Chant MD is weak until I played and understood the deck more as ChiiMagic pointed out. Sometimes I would even just Chant turn 1 against goblins/Merfolks (no vial, no lackey), then drop a Standstill on the next turn (I do this more against gobs than folks since merfolks can counter/daze). And against Survival on the play, Standstill is still very good, in fact much better against a meta of Zoo/Gobs/Merfolks as it was before. Because aside from Hierarch, they have no turn 1 play that interferes with your Standstill. Those 3 cards you draw from a turn 2 Standstill in this deck, will greatly help you setup for some form of lock, be it Scepter Chant, Scepter-Stp/Counterspell, Planeswalker, Cunning Wish/Humility/Extirpate etc.

Against combo/Enchantress/STax: You board in 3 Negates, 3 Extirpate, 1 Chant, and remove creature removal package
Against Survival: You board 4 Extirpate, 1 Chant, 2 Peacekeeper, 2 Path in any amount depending on its version
Against Zoo/Big green beaters: 3 Perish, 2 Path (this is your weaker matchup especially aggro-fucking-loam, people need to play aggro loam it owns)
Against control mirros: board in 3 Extirpates, 3 Negate
Against folks: +2 Path/Peacekeeper + 1Chant (they don't have too much artifact removal)
Against gobs: +2 Path + 1 Chant (they don't have too much artifact removal)


Overall you have quite a lot of 55-45 and 60-40 matchups when you postboard. I'm debating the path v.s. Peacekeeper slot, I'll probably go with Peacekeeper but I'm worried just as the meta is adjusting to Survival, all decks are adjusting to Peacekeeper tech.

[median]

Really I would just go with 4x faerie macabre in the sideboard of whatever your playing. That way you can also deal with ichorid, ooze, and whatever else shows up. There are times when you may want to board out all of one card, like removal in landstll against TES and faerie macabre is great to bring in. I don't think you need a tailored deck to beat vengevine.

[Nidd]

I think that some sort of GBW Survival should be good against them, be it joining the dark side (and getting free Vengevines into play) or being more Rock-esque, using Survival the way it was used before.
That deck can play various hate cards, from StP and Canonist to Extirpate and Faerie Macabre.
Also, it can't be handled the same way Vengevival can and emphasizes Survival effects instead of the Vengevines, which makes the Vengevival hate worse against it.

Dredge and fast combo decks like SI look great, too, but aside from Belcher, you really need a good pilot behind the deck because SI and the like are pretty hard to play correctly.

[Nonex]

Survival decks are mostly aggro, Enchantress does pretty well against them. I'm currently testing a "deformed" version that ditches most activated abilities in favour of 4 Suppression Field MD in a metagame full of Survivals and Equipments. They slow down Survival so much that one of them in play almost wins the game by itself depending on the version you are facing.

3 Savannah
3 Wooded Bastion
2 Karakas
7 Forest
3 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum

4 Argothian Enchantress

3 Elephant Grass
3 Wild Growth
2 Utopia Sprawl
1 Runed Halo
3 Sterling Grove
4 Suppression Field
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pursuit of Knowledge
2 Moat
3 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Replenish
4 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 City of Solitude
2 Karmic Justice
2 Aura of Silence
2 Sacred Ground
2 Ground Seal
1 Helix Pinnacle

You can't use fetchlands or Words of War any more, so there are Wooded Bastions and Pursuit of Knowledge (to avoid decking yourself) instead. SB Helix Pinnacle is another win condition against anything that gets all your Sigils exiled. It's more expensive with Suppression Field, but still affordable due to the way it's worded. Everything else is more or less standard. You may want 1-2 City of Solitude MD if UG Survival is everywhere.

My testing with this version is still limited; however, I played several games against a red variant of GW Survival and every time I landed a Suppression Field, he didn't have many options apart from scooping: Survival is so much more expensive, Knight of the Reliquary is too slow, Qasali Pridemage is slow and has to choose between destroying the Suppression Field that doesn't let him play or the Presence that's giving me cards. That's not counting fetchlands or Equipment.

I didn't face a single Survival deck in my last tournament, instead I found three Bant variations, all of them with Stoneforge Mystic. Despite Suppression Field not being that good against them, they still wreaked some havoc.

IMHO Suppression Field in the right deck is one of the worst permanents for Survival variants to handle. Perhaps I'm a little too hyped about it, but I assure you it's really good against them. Feel free to test this list and make as many changes as you want.

[Bahamuth]

An ANT list similar to Ari Lax's list with Xantid Swarms sideboard doesn't really lose to Vengevival.

[naarou]

Yeah, storm has a near bye vs the g/w version and has at least a coinflip against U/G. I think thats probably better than any other deck against VV.. except possibly landstill, but landstill doesnt get a bye against one of them.

[Mantis]

Well, it's safe to say that every Legacy player should take this deck extremely seriously and devote a decent chunk of testing time and quite a substantial amount of maindeck/sideboard cards to do well at a tournament. As noted in the OP, it's even fair to base your deck selection around beating this deck. I personally chose to stick to Goblins for now, mostly because I don't have the time and energy to buy/trade a new deck and grow intimate with the subtle interactions of that deck. I chose to stick 4 Needle and 3 Extirpate in my sideboard and hope to have a small edge by doing so.

Given limitless time to devote to testing and the entire card pool to my availability, I would probably do what Taco says and build a version of VVSurvival that beats the mirror. I also believe Merfolk can have a strong Survival matchup if you maindeck 4 Spell Snares, although the deck is a duck to Goblins and Zoo.

[Valdez]

Red chalice aggro with main deck Pithing Needle and 8 Blood Moon effects. Mise at shuffling so you don't lose to mulligans, profit?
I've alleways crusherd Dragon Stompy with GW Sur.
5 basics, Hierarch and fat beaters arent exactly, waht DS wants to see...


http://mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=85894

This deck is favored against vengevine decks. Marius Hausmann and me, both played it in several tournaments with 5-7 rounds and did very well with it. By the way it also beats Merfolk, Zoo, Ichorid, Lands and Stompy variants. Counterbalance decks are roughly even and combo is abyssal.

This deck beats UG vengevine by slowing it down with Elephant Grass and winning with Enchantments or by wishing for Peacekeeper. GW Vengevine Survival gets hosed pretty easily once it doesn't have Survival and many opponents tend to board out StoP, not expecting Peacekeeper. If they get Survival, luckily we got Replenish, Sterling Grove and Elephant Grass to slow them down and overcome their Pridemages. Iona gets pwned by Karakas or Living Wish-> Karakas.

This definitely works for us against Vengevine decks and the build is thoroughly tested and refined by actual tournament play.


I link to this crappy site, because deckcheck.net doesn't exist any more.
I'ver played a lot of Games vs. Enchantress with GW Sur.
The list also had Supression Field in the SB and Lignify to answer Iona, but it was sitll favorable for me, you can answer Karakas by fetching your own and even without SotF you still have FS, Pridemages and Post Board Grip + a strong Aggro plan.
I doubt, that the MU is in Enchantres' favor...

Aggro Loam has a positive mu vs. GW Sur.

[coraz86]

My group has actually figured out that manabase disruption is good against Vengevine Survival (actually, Survival in general) because of their mana requirements. One of my friends recently beat the deck twice at a Jupiter Games tournament with Death and Taxes. The more controlling builds of Goblins seem good too, especially if you can do the turn 1 Vial/turn 2 Port thing, and the combination of good soft counters with Wasteland/Stifle makes Team America/Thresh/New Horizons/control-heavy Merfolk builds solid as well. (On that note, we all agree with the posters above who stress killing their first-turn Hierarch.)

Pithing Needle somewhere in your 75 also may help, especially since it's tough to find a deck Needle won't help you beat (unlike something like Extirpate that helps you a lot with some decks and not at all with others).

Obviously that approach works against any deck in a vacuum, but it's one thing to work Wasteland/Daze/Stifle hands against a deck like Zoo or storm that can fight with two lands; it's another entirely to do it against a deck like VS that wants to have at least one big turn.

[death]

Really I would just go with 4x faerie macabre in the sideboard of whatever your playing. That way you can also deal with ichorid, ooze, and whatever else shows up. There are times when you may want to board out all of one card, like removal in landstll against TES and faerie macabre is great to bring in. I don't think you need a tailored deck to beat vengevine.

Perhaps U/R Painters with Macabres would be a decent choice if only Recruiters aren't $125/pop. Recruiters/Mages can both tutor any form of hate except LotV, extirpate, bog. And like what JACO said in his article, they can serve as sandbags after doing their job before you combo out.

It's kinda funny that the Survival player loses after helping him put all his VVs in the yard (i.e. by grinding)

[(nameless one)]

Here is the current Quinn deck I'm testing:

19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

2 Painter's Servant

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Silence

1 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God

Also a card comparison: Moat vs. Ghostly Prison

I find that Ghostly Prison is better because it comes down a turn earlier, which is huge against VV Survival. I find that a lot of VV Survival players will try to go around Ghostly Prison by paying it's taxing cost (which can actually buy you time to find other lock pieces) whereas if you play Moat, it will see Qasali Pridemage right away. Also, Wonder in the 'yard doesn't backdoor rape you if you have Ghostly Prison online.

Yes, I know I don't have Ghostly Prison in my maindeck, I am still working on my sideboard.

[Tacosnape]

What about just straight up Suicide Black, with or without a green splash for better threats? Access to maindecked discard, Yixlid Jailer, along with Needle/Perish/Plague in sideboard seems decent (Plague IS decent against Vengevine Survival, actually, as if you can stop Vengevine or Survival, Plague will wipe out Hierarch or Rootwalla.)

[Taurelin]

Would you recommend Wheel of Sun and Moon in a Bant-colored CounterTop-shell / Supreme Blue deck?

Wheel helps both vs. recurring Vengevines and Squee-advantage, and it is also useful in other MUs (like Ichorid, Loam or Reanimator).

[MrShine]

In my experience playing UG Vengevine so far, Enchantress definitely has some game vs the deck. Vengevival has only T Pred to deal with enchantments, so if the enchantress player tunes their list nicely (Ghostly Prison IS good) and can make it past T4, they can probably win with massive card advantage. Moat helps, Wonder notwithstanding, and easy access to Wheel of Sun and Moon is a bonus. Runed halo naming vengevine is also a pretty good play.

Also, I agree that mana disruption really hurts the [UG] deck; vs a merfolk list playing Stifles, you have to carefully balance playing around stifle to not get blown out in the early turns by Vial with setting up your own board presence. I always try to play as many basics as possible, as the Trops are a problem against tempo / LD decks, but they still show up when not wanted and set you back after wasteland. With a good source of pressure to back it up, Mana denial can give you a huge edge; just watch out for Noble Hierarch!

MrShine

[Catitas]

Peacekeeper

[Amon Amarth]

What about just straight up Suicide Black, with or without a green splash for better threats? Access to maindecked discard, Yixlid Jailer, along with Needle/Perish/Plague in sideboard seems decent (Plague IS decent against Vengevine Survival, actually, as if you can stop Vengevine or Survival, Plague will wipe out Hierarch or Rootwalla.)

You mean something like Eva Green? Afaik that's the most "tuned" Suicide Black list that I can think of.

[Amon Amarth]

Sorry for the double post. I've been kicking around an idea in mah head for the last few days. Basically, I was trying to think of a deck that could answer Survival MD and handle the rest of the creatures that are in the W/G version. Furthermore, if they run it, being able to answer Natural Order into Progenitus would be excellent as well. After some intense theorycrafting, I came up with this at work.

MD: 60

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog

4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Duress
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Predict

3 Winter Orb

1 Berserk

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest

SB: 15
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
7 Open Slots (Jace, extra Duress/ Counterspell, Nature's Claim, Deathmark, etc.)

Survival is rather mana hungry so being able to attack from that angle is good. Having so much cheap disruption plus LD makes it very hard to resolve Natural Order. Your guys get bigger than theirs and you can always Combo out with Tog + Berserk. Not really sure on some of the numbers but I like the miser Counterspell but maybe it should be Duress number 3. Shouldn't be too hard to answer SotF most games. Wish I had removal MD for the WG match but we shall see how that goes. Want to test later on but its hard with school plus work plus RL. Anyways. PEW PEW.

Edit 1: Duress should be Thoughtseize. Brainfart.

Edit 2: Predict may be better off as Dark Confidant.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I'm pretty sure that Trinisphere would be a good card to use in this crazy, crazy metagame of ours.

[Ubiquitous Druid]

I'm pretty sure that Trinisphere would be a good card to use in this crazy, crazy metagame of ours.

I believe the same thing. I really want to find a way to use it and Parallax Tide, in a Mono-U stax-like shell.

[ivanpei]

Metalwalker's list is somewhat unique, I have not tested it, so I have no idea how it does against venges. Cunning-wish extirpate is painfully slow though. Most guys play UWBG with the following shell and it has been good vs Vengevine survival (both WG and UG):

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace, TMS

4 Deed
4 STP
2 Path

24 lands (I prefer 4 factories, 20 coloured however you want to divide it, better consistency vs wasteland)

The shell above is 49 cards. I play the following as my 11:
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

To be absolutely sure I beat survival I would go - 2 Engineered explosives, + 1 Path + 1 Spell pierce. It is very hard to resolve a survival through all that counter magic and 7 exile effects are plenty for venges.

SB (tuned for survival):
4 Extirpate
3 Duress
3 Perish
2 Engineered explosives
3 BEB- No matter how you board against survival, you still have to beat burn/gobbos- archnemesis of landstill

My 2 cents. As someone mentioned GBW has been working well for me, I have a list somewhere on the survival thread, but I don't even run venge's in those. I have a mix of harmonic slivers, pridemage, shriekmaw, boneshredder instead along with STP, goyfs, dark confidant, thoughtseize, fauna shaman etc.

Oh and keep an eye out for Necrotic Ooze -buried alive combo, its going to be the next big thing. I've been testing it, and I haven't felt this kinda tingle since a certain 1U instant was re-errata-ed.

[sdematt]

I'm sitting in class reading forums instead of listening, and I've come up with these lists:

Mono Black F#$@ you Vengevine:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
2 Top

4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakair
4 Yixalid Jailer

20 Lands

Sideboard:
4 Extirpate
4 E. Plague
4 Needle
3 Perish




Rock Survival:

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Duress
4 StP
2 Thoughtseize
2 Top

2 Jailer
1 Harmonic Sliver/Monk Realist
1 Eternal Witness
1 Bane of the Living
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Veteran explorer
3 shriekmaw
4 Goyf
4 KoTR

1 Bog
1 Stronghold
4 bayou
3 savannah
7 fetches
4 forest
1 swamp
1 plains

Sideboard:
2 Macabre
4 Nature's Claim
3 Extirpate
4 Plague
2 Path/Open

Not tested, just thinking outloud during lecture :tongue:

-Matt

[paeng4983]

@ sdematt
wont you help VV sur decks in putting their beloved VV pets in their GY?
i mean, look at it, hymn, and you were able to discard two cards one of them VV.
next turn they might cast two creatures, noble, memnite, ornithopter, rootwalla
then bring back x number of VV into their side then swings at you.

im combating VV sur with these lineup:
3 vedalken shackles (a superb card choice vs. aggro decks)
4 EE (wrecks everything you want)
3 firesprout (VV's body is only 4/3, and not just VV decks, firesprout can also burn other aggro decks like zoo, merfolk, gobs)
4 relic of progenitus (dredge, VV and other GY lovers)

hehehe...

:)


4 Yixalid Jailer
LOVE IT!

[sdematt]

Not every Hymn is going to hit Vengevines, statistically. I'm not saying it won't happen, but the amount of targeted discard, coupled with the random discard, will be able to hit most of their stuff. You have to think, 56/60 of their cards AREN'T Vengevine :tongue:

I'm definitely digging mainboard Jailers. I've been playing them in a Mono Black Painter list and I love them :cool:

-Matt

[crow_mw]

I have always steamrolled mono black decks like the one provided by sdematt with survival before vengivine. Even if they forced me into topdeck mode I just beat them with quality of topdecked creatures as they needed a lot of time to kill me with that Tombstalker. Maybe this will be efficient against UG Madness, but against GW/GBW Survival it will by almost auto-loss.

[ivanpei]

Here are some decks I believe should do well against vengevine survival:

UWBG Landstill
UWx Landstill
Countertop-thopthers (Eat ensnaring bridge!)
Fast combo (Tes, Belcher etc)
Merfolk (against UG only)
Can threshold (Against UG only)
New horizons (Against UG, so-so vs WG)

So guys, dont play aggro, affinity sucks, zoo can't deal with a face full of venges. Play something with blue or something that is faster than venge survival. Main your spell snares/pierces with lots more in the board along with needles. You should be fine.

[Amon Amarth]

It's also worth noting that Goblins is actually pretty good against VVS in any form. For reference the 4th place list from SCG Boston ran no specialized hate and I watched games were he beat W/G soundly.

[GGoober]

Because Lackey is broken OMGPWNZORBANZ!!!

[dahcmai]

One deck that can actually beat this and still do decent against control is that Koth/Elspeth control deck. Since you run 4 Path, 4 Swords, vengevine isn't too big of a deal. You have 4 main deck pithing needles for survival, and can bring Canonist out of the board to shut vengevine down permanently. Seems decent considering it can beat this into the ground and still have a defined advantage vs Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, and New Horizons. It's only bad vs storm of course. The eternal weakness of all untuned decks.

[DragoFireheart]

One deck that can actually beat this and still do decent against control is that Koth/Elspeth control deck. Since you run 4 Path, 4 Swords, vengevine isn't too big of a deal. You have 4 main deck pithing needles for survival, and can bring Canonist out of the board to shut vengevine down permanently. Seems decent considering it can beat this into the ground and still have a defined advantage vs Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, and New Horizons. It's only bad vs storm of course. The eternal weakness of all untuned decks.

And TES is going to be more popular since it's faster than Veggies. Probably not the best choice.

[sdematt]

I was playing online (if that even counts) against multiple Vengevine decks: G/W and GBW. I managed to beat them all 2-0 with this:

Dark Depths:

1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
3 Wasteland
4 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gatekeeper of Malakair

3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Grim Discovery
2/3 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crop Rotation (could be 3 Kitchen Finks, Shriekmaws, or Eternal Witnesses, but so far so good. Finds Stronghold, Waste, DD)
3 Living Wish

Board:

2/3 Shriekmaw
1/0 Tombstalker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Gatekeeper of Malakair
1 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
3 Choke
3 Extirpate

I'd love to play more creature kill in the main, with perhaps 3 Shriekmaw and no Crop Rotations, but the Crops have been so good to me for finding Urborg (at times), Volrath's Stronghold, Wasteland, and getting Dark Depths. Vengevine, unless it has Swords in hand, can't deal with a 20/20 and it has to do something fast. Coupled with massive amount of disruption I'm playing, and it's recursion, it's been a solid matchup so far. Thoughts, tips, tricks, ideas? Oh, and Extirpate is stellar, btw.

-Matt

[cuthbertthecat]

I've had a positive mu against vengevival with both aggro loam and lands, although any builds of vengevival running black for extirpate are significantly worse matchups. It seems like any deck with large creatures or heavy aggro hate should be just fine against the vines.

[TheBirdMan]

Survival Elves has a great matchup, Im 5-0 against them.

[dahcmai]

So basically there's a ton of things that blow it out.


TES, Doomsday, Reanimator, Elves, Quinn, Enchantress, Belcher, Moat Control, Rock, and several other decks that people seem to refuse to play because it didn't win some SCG tournament recently.

Survival trashes on Landstill, Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo. It's no wonder it's winning. People are idiots who refuse to change.

[(nameless one)]

Survival Elves has a great matchup, Im 5-0 against them.

Were you running Vengevine on your Elves list?

[TheBirdMan]

No sir, it like tarmogoyf is not an elf so its no good.

[sdematt]

From what I know, Landstill has a decent matchup against Vengevine depending on the build. If you're running 6 Swords and 4 Extirpates, along with Deeds and the ilk, it's not a terrible matchup. Older versions that sit there and try to Wrath and Elspeth it up tend to die in a fire.

Point being, dahcmai is right about there being decks that Survival has a poor matchup against, but everyone seems to be lazy to change decks/even try another deck.

-Matt

[Mark Sun]

Survival Elves has a great matchup, Im 5-0 against them.

Agreed here. We played against each other yesterday at Vestal and I wasn't happy about the matchup. We tested that matchup for my teammate a lot so he'd know what to do going in, and he had an average goldfish of turn 3-4 consistently when he went off, and even if the VVS player gets Vengevines out of the yard, it's just not enough to fight through mana bugs and you end up getting blown out multiple Lords. Honestly the only way I envision winning that matchup is getting an early Iona out of the yard, besides that not a whole lot more can be done besides using Ethersworn Canonist to trip Elves up along the way.