Should Mystical Tutor be unbanned now?

[Clark Kant]

With Survival Vengevine absolutely dominating, now seems like a good time to unban Mystical Tutor and print some even stronger graveyard hate.

B/U Reanimator and Ad Nauseum Tendrils were wiped off the face off the earth by the Mystical ban. No one was asking for the ban and the ban killed both decks completely and utterly. The decks weren't even winning that much before the ban. They won at a much lower percentage than Countertop or Merfolk did.

If Vengevine is allowed, it seems unfair to disallow two decks that weren't anywhere near as good as Vengevine. Allowing these decks would make graveyard hate that much more potent. If wizards printed some even stronger grave hate to accompany the unbanning, it along with the reintroduction of Tendrils should be enough to rebalance the format without banning anything.

[frogboy]

No. If people stopped playing decks that weren't totally embarrassing, we wouldn't even have this 'problem.' Unbanning Mystical would be a cure worse than the disease.

[death]

No. People should be more creative with deckbuilding. It's actually a good thing deckheck.net shut down.

[ivanpei]

I think anybody who actually has a legacy collection is playing survival. People on the budget are playing embarassing decks as Frogboy mentioned. Unbanning mystical wouldn't help. People will still have survival fever and will continue playing it.

[Leftconsin]

I've been playing Elf Survival for longer than Vengevine has been out and I'm wanting to switch. I already was able to race Reanimator, and Vengevival is a bit faster than Elf Survival.

[Koby]

I've been playing Elf Survival for longer than Vengevine has been out and I'm wanting to switch. I already was able to race Reanimator, and Vengevival is a bit faster than Elf Survival.

This is exactly the same thing I discovered. Elf has a problem turning Survival into an instant win within 2 turns (or rather, needs to generate way too much mana to formally win).

Vengevine solved the problem easily. GGGGG -> attack for 16. Weeeeeee! Reload for GG.

[Sigar]

No. If people stopped playing decks that weren't totally embarrassing, we wouldn't even have this 'problem.'

I agree.

[Jodahae]

No mystical should stay banned, there is no diversity in the format if we are just teeter tottering back and forth between banning s and unbanning of the same cards.

A healthy format is not one where I revert back to my storm list from 8-12 months ago, ignore you and just win no turn 2.

The community needs to gather up its best and brightest and we need to start discussing other cards which can be unbanned and would have a positive impact on the current meta game. Including more archetypes will allow for a greater diversity and depth to an incredibly rich playing field.

Cards like:
Frantic Search
Gush
Earthcraft
Timespiral

My 2 cents.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

No mystical should stay banned, there is no diversity in the format if we are just teeter tottering back and forth between banning s and unbanning of the same cards.

A healthy format is not one where I revert back to my storm list from 8-12 months ago, ignore you and just win no turn 2.

The community needs to gather up its best and brightest and we need to start discussing other cards which can be unbanned and would have a positive impact on the current meta game. Including more archetypes will allow for a greater diversity and depth to an incredibly rich playing field.

Cards like:
Frantic Search
Gush
Earthcraft
Timespiral

My 2 cents.

I don't see how mystical would lead to a non-diverse format. The format was just as diverse before the ban, wizards was just flipping out because they wrecked some scrubs with AdN. Also, the idea of a Madness-Combo-Counterbalance triangle intrigues me.

Also, excepting mystical, I dont feel anything on the B/R list is safe to unban.

[otherside]

No. Both decks it makes good are boring to play and play against

[PunkRocker1134]

Also, excepting mystical, I dont feel anything on the B/R list is safe to unban.

(Begins the same old Land Tax unbanning discussion...)

[SpikeyMikey]

Yes. MT wasn't causing problems to begin with. There was no good reason for it to be banned. There were some bad reasons and now a little bit of bandwagoning. Personally, I felt like the month or two after the MT ban were the hardest times for me to beat combo... Because combo went from being synonymous with ANT to "maybe TES, maybe SI, maybe Shelldrazi, maybe Show 'n' Sneak, maybe...".

[Piceli89]

No. Both decks it makes good are boring to play and play against

Talk for yourself, thanks.

[Sigar]

Who says he wasn't?

[Gui]

"Not causing trouble" is not what one should take into account to ban a card. ANT had pretty good results against a field flooded with CB+Top, a controlish deck that should be able to handle combo as "favorable match". ANT was imbalanced, even tho it was not that much played.
ANT should have won GP Madrid that game, iirc acording to emidln, ANT player made a mistake.

[Stalker]

ANT should have won GP Madrid that game, iirc acording to emidln, ANT player made a mistake.

I don't agree with you: ANT palayer DIDN'T make a mistake: beacause he reveled a lot of cards in Nausea, but he didn't find a mana source...
remember that he started reveling cards with no mana in pool, coz the reanimator player made Daze on nausea and the guy pay the cost.

[emidln]

The mistake was failure to play his LEDs when storm count would not matter but Duress/Thoughtseize would. That would give him +2 mana in this pool if he dropped just LEDs or +3 if he dropped all artifact mana.

As always, magic players need to consider not only their own strategy, but their strategy with regard to what their opponent can do from the information they have thus far. In game 3 of a top8 at a Grand Prix, you damn well better know your opponent has two major disruption spells: Force of WIll and Thoughtseize/Duress. You can do much about Force except Duress it or sometimes assemble natural Tendrils or 2nd bomb with SDT. Thoughtseize/Duress can be played around if you the have the right combination of cards, and he did have the right combination of cards.

[dahcmai]

(Begins the same old Land Tax unbanning discussion...)


What's hilarious is there's several white based decks that just destroy survival without a second thought, but need Land tax to be able to keep up with Jace control.

[emidln]

What's hilarious is there's several white based decks that just destroy survival without a second thought, but need Land tax to be able to keep up with Jace control.

White decks that play Jace can do that now. There's a card, it's called Humility. I hear it's really good against decks with a bunch of dorks+abilities. What's better than hosing a bunch of dorks with abilities? Tutoring for the card that does it with Enlightened Tutor. ETutor brings more value to the matchup in the form of Engineered Explosives, Oblivion Ring, and Pithing Needle.

Sure, you're never going to beat Merfolk in games that you don't resolve Humility, but given how well Survival has been doing, that's probably a chance you just have to take.

You can play it as a thopter deck. You can play it as a more traditional control deck that just grinds out Jace advantage. You can probably even run it with CounterTop like in the past (although I'd argue that you don't really want to be playing CB when the field is accelerating into 3 and 4 drops on turns 2 and 3). The point is that you just want to play Humility and ways to find it.

[(nameless one)]

What's hilarious is there's several white based decks that just destroy survival without a second thought, but need Land tax to be able to keep up with Jace control.

This. I play Quinn and I'm happy with both aggro and control matchups. Not so much with control though.

Speaking of Land Tax, is it really that broken with Scroll Rack?

[dontbiteitholmes]

This. I play Quinn and I'm happy with both aggro and control matchups. Not so much with control though.

Speaking of Land Tax, is it really that broken with Scroll Rack?

Not in Legacy. In old Extended maybe, but not in Legacy.

[Doomsday]

Yes it should be unbanned now (because it never should have been banned in the first place).

[nedleeds]

If you have a helpless opponent who has done nothing to impede your progress or blow up your permanents and you have GGGGG ready to spend you probably should win.

[jazzykat]

Yes. It wasn't a problem to begin with.

[kusumoto]

Yes it should be unbanned. Never should have been banned in the first place.

[Tacosnape]

No. Solid ban. And keep dreaming. They're not going to just re-unban it after banning it the first time fixed Legacy until Vengevine.

[emidln]

I don't know if Wizards will go for the plan of fixing a slightly broken interaction by letting two of the most consistent combo decks to ever get sleeved up back into the format. I would love to play NLS again, but it's probably better for the format if we don't see so many hybrid combo decks like Reanimator and the various ANT lists that used tutor to transform around hate. I never did get a chance to take the final form of NLS to a large event though...

[DragoFireheart]

No, unbanning Mystical Tutor would be disastrous right now. Yes, Reanimator and ANT would push out Vengevine decks, but people would quickly realize how much more powerful said decks are with tutor. They would swarm the meta and would likely dominate.

Why they did not before? They simply did not catch on as i suspect that combo decks are not as popular as the common tribal or aggro-control decks.

[ummon]

No. Ad Nauseam players who liked to play combo decks on autopilot can stop whining. Survival Madness isn't nearly as annoying as ANT or Reanimator were. I think Vacrix's excellent article, Ill-Gotten Pains (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18184-%5BPsuedo-Article%5D-Ill-Gotten-Pains&p=470854&viewfull=1), is correct here.

[The Big Ragu]

I'm glad it was banned and hope it remains banned.

[Rico Suave]

I fail to see how unbanning one of the most broken tutors to ever exist is a wise idea.

[Aggro_zombies]

I fail to see how unbanning one of the most broken tutors to ever exist is a wise idea.
Because then more people would play combo, and since combo beats Survival, Wizards wouldn't have to ban Vengevine.

It's perfect.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Because then more people would play combo, and since combo beats Survival, Wizards wouldn't have to ban Vengevine.

It's perfect.

Combo beats Survival? MD Fow, Daze and Spell Pierce would like to have a word with you.

[Meekrab]

You know what other decks play MD Fow, Daze and Spell Pierce? Like half the format. Combo doesn't seem to have an issue with them either.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

You know what other decks play MD Fow, Daze and Spell Pierce? Like half the format. Combo doesn't seem to have an issue with them either.

Are you saying combo is unbeatable? Gee, I've beaten expirienced players with goblins back when MT was unbanned. I'm not saying that Combo can't beat Fow, Daze and Spell Pierce, but it's not as straight forward as you're saying.

[Vacrix]

But people already are playing more combo. Its only a matter of time before the results surface. Just recently I saw a post in the SI forum.. in an 138 person tournament 2 SI players were seating right next to each other. What are the chances of that happening? More people are playing TES and Solidarity, Spring Tide is winning tournaments.. Further, Mystical Tutor would just make combo too easy and you wouldn't have all these cool old school combo decks becoming viable again.

[AriLax]

I would honestly be for unbanning Vampiric Tutor before Mystical.

What would the best Vamp Tutor decks be if it was legal? Probably ANT, Reanimator, and some two card combo like Show and Tell. Some Rock or Attrition deck might be like the fifth or sixth best option, the gist is that the main thing people would be doing is comboing.

In context of that, lets consider this: are any of the combo decks Vamp helps getting things they couldn't Mystical for? ANT can get LED, but is better than Dark Rit + 2 life? Reanimator can get a guy to Show and Tell or a land, but they would again much rather have 2 life. You can't even pitch a Vampiric Tutor to Force.

Even if they are getting non-Mystical fetchable cards, is there actually a deck using Vamp that is more resilient, powerful, and faster than Reanimator or Tendrils?

Seriously, Mystical is actually more degenerate than Vampiric Tutor right now.

[GtF]

Even if they are getting non-Mystical fetchable cards, is there actually a deck using Vamp that is more resilient, powerful, and faster than Reanimator or Tendrils?


BG Survival. Maybe not all 3 of those things but probably at least 2/3.
Also being able to get a creature for use with show and tell seems quite relevant and totally worth the 2 life if it wins the game.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

I would honestly be for unbanning Vampiric Tutor before Mystical.

What would the best Vamp Tutor decks be if it was legal? Probably ANT, Reanimator, and some two card combo like Show and Tell. Some Rock or Attrition deck might be like the fifth or sixth best option, the gist is that the main thing people would be doing is comboing.

In context of that, lets consider this: are any of the combo decks Vamp helps getting things they couldn't Mystical for? ANT can get LED, but is better than Dark Rit + 2 life? Reanimator can get a guy to Show and Tell or a land, but they would again much rather have 2 life. You can't even pitch a Vampiric Tutor to Force.

Even if they are getting non-Mystical fetchable cards, is there actually a deck using Vamp that is more resilient, powerful, and faster than Reanimator or Tendrils?

Seriously, Mystical is actually more degenerate than Vampiric Tutor right now.

Another tutor for Survival? Great! I'd like that.

[Vacrix]

And find what? Survival is already tight for deck space. No build would play it.

[AriLax]

Creature for Show and Tell: No different usually than Mystical for Entomb.

Survival: GWB could play 8 Tutors, 4 Survival. Would still be slower than Storm and vulnerable to similar hate.

[emidln]

Cards that ANT would like to tutor for but can't with Mystical Tutor:

Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Serenity
basic Island
Dark Confidant
Vendilion Clique

Of those, cards that Reanimator would like to tutor for:

Serenity
Emrakul

I'm not saying that other decks wouldn't also find cards, but you'd actually be shoring up the only weaknesses that exist in the two combo decks. Giving them a more resilient gameplan to find SDT and LED (the two keys in the ANT/DD hybrid and one of the best ways to beat discard or heavy control with UB ANT) and opening up the option of Show and Tells to go along with Emrakul while both of them being tutorable (by vamp and SnT by Burning Wish) leaves you in a rough situation as a counterbalance deck. You're now fighting the GP top8 deck that was designed to beat Counterbalance while this same deck is crushing everyone else by being ANT that can pay 1BW to smash canonist, chalice, thorn, crypt, and pillar.

Reanimator gets an alternate to Show and Tell in the form of Serenity, something that negates the most commonly played graveyard hate and potential permanent-based solutions like Humility.

The only real light is that the Counterbalance decks would probably also play Vampiric Tutor and use it to setup CB/Top lock or find Natural Order/Firespout/Painter combo. I'm not sure how many colors the CB deck plays, but it's probably based UGB with the ability to tutor into edicts, firespouts, ee, academy ruins, and shackles as the situation dictates.

The rest of the decks, well, I don't know that I'd support playing something without 4 Force of Will, 4 Vampiric Tutor, and Underground Sea.

[menace13]

I would honestly be for unbanning Vampiric Tutor before Mystical.

What would the best Vamp Tutor decks be if it was legal? Probably ANT, Reanimator, and some two card combo like Show and Tell. Some Rock or Attrition deck might be like the fifth or sixth best option, the gist is that the main thing people would be doing is comboing.

In context of that, lets consider this: are any of the combo decks Vamp helps getting things they couldn't Mystical for? ANT can get LED, but is better than Dark Rit + 2 life? Reanimator can get a guy to Show and Tell or a land, but they would again much rather have 2 life. You can't even pitch a Vampiric Tutor to Force.

Even if they are getting non-Mystical fetchable cards, is there actually a deck using Vamp that is more resilient, powerful, and faster than Reanimator or Tendrils?

Seriously, Mystical is actually more degenerate than Vampiric Tutor right now.

That could never be true, old extended played unrestricted V.Tuts and it was in every deck- Reanimator was played back then with a sideboard of 15 singeltons ranging from Enchantments/Artifacts to creatures and every hate card, anti-hate card that could be tutored for(which is everything and that was old Ext, Legacy has 10k+ cards to tutor for.)-.

Vamp Tuts can also be sideboarded to bring in game 2 and 3, so a small black splash is all that is needed. Any deck would have to have a really, really good reason not to include the 2nd best tutor in game, when all it requires is a couple swamps in the deck.

No aggro deck can successfully employ Mystical to its highest potential, same is true of control in Legacy, but every archetype can use Vamp and use it rather well.

Zoo,Gobs,Merf could splash black for it, Team America would find room, The Rock/Deadguy/Eva green would love that ability, Jacestill and Countertop and a host of decks would add it in.

Mystical only enables combo- Reanimator,ANT and Show and Tell- decks since cards like Mana Drain,YWill,Tinker,Balance, and Blue power are banned no other archetype can take advantage of it.

[dahcmai]

BUG Landstill would kill for Vamp tuts. Least I would immediately find room. I'd love to only have Loam when I need it or not clog my hand with deeds against storm. Things like that are the stuff of dreams for control decks, especially ones that already run black.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah, actually, i think Vampiric would not be as bad as Mystical. Think about it, Reanimator would have an hard time playing FoW with vamp instead of mystic, the old lists played 20-21 blue spells with mystical including the fatties (4 brainstorm 4fow 4 mystical 4 careful study 4 Daze 1 roboakroma 1 leviathan 1 SnT). You'd have to play a couple more blue fatties to be confortable with vamp. AnT would play it, but aside from LED and lands you can get anything already with mystical. It would have a nice boost sure, but control decks able to find an answer to iona using vamp tutor in response to exhume/entomb? Or vamp for a singleton mindbreak trap the moment you see you're playing against storm? Or Vamp for pithing needle/extirpate against Survine?

Having Vamp instead of Mystical would lead probably to a more control based format while still boosting combo. Vamp is like a dream for rock/control decks. I remember my old Rock in extended that played singleton e. plague, edict , planar void, naturalize and living death :P

[Catitas]

If vamp was unbanned there would be no reason to play anything but ad nauseam...

[SpikeyMikey]

If vamp was unbanned there would be no reason to play anything but ad nauseam...

Oh, I doubt I'd play AnT. There would be better choices. I would probably stop playing Rock and start playing a CB Hexmage deck heavy on disruption and permission with 4 MD Extirpates and light removal.