[Free Article] Legacy Combo: It's What's for Dinner

[voltron00x]

Lately, we’ve talked a lot about combo decks being a potential foil for Survival of the Fittest decks, especially versions like Ooze and Retainers / Iona that don’t play Force of Will. Most of this discussion has centered on TES. While I believe this is a good place to start, it is short-changing the number of viable combo decks in Legacy. My article today attempts to correct that:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20610_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_Legacy_Combo_Its_Whats_for_Dinner.html

While Tendrils decks – TES and ANT in particular – are probably the abstractly “best” combo decks in the format, there are faster combo decks (Belcher) and resilient combo decks (Helmline, Breakfast), as well as others that are worth considering (Elves, Spring Tide, and more).

For those of you that are newer to Legacy, I hope this broadens your knowledge of Legacy combo, and for Legacy experts, this will compile some deck options into once place for you.

[scrumdogg]

Nicely presented toolbox of loathesome evil, Pandora, well done and well written.

[Shabbaman]

I liked the article, although it didn't really present a lot of new stuff. But nicely written as always.

[practical joke]

I got name-called, so I can't avoid liking this article. ( the tournament in which ANT won was the Dutch legacy Champs)

Besides brining nothing new, It's good to see all combo-flavors in a single article.

[voltron00x]

My target audience here is more the newcomer to Legacy over the past 6-12 months, whose frame of reference is dominated by Mystical Tutor and Survival. I suspect a lot of people are overly concerned with Survival because, frankly, they’re not sure what can beat it. I think your average member of this board will probably find nothing new here, although I know for me, it was nice to be forced to look a little harder at Spring Tide, at 1-Land Belcher, and at the various builds of TES/ANT.

I also like to get in plugs for decks like Elves, which are cheap - in the scheme of things – and decks that are more European in design (Spring Tide, 1-Land Belcher, some modern ANT variants) or even throwbacks (Breakfast, or Helmline with its similarities to Iggy Pop). It is important for people to know that Legacy didn’t start with the SCG Open Series, and that the metagame in Europe is different than the US and can (and should!) be mined for decks and technology. I think too often, American Pros that play Legacy discount or ignore Europe with regard to the format (citing it only, it seems, when they want to beef up the strength of Mystical Tutor).

[practical joke]

I agree on your remarks,

for the newcomers it's an excellent article because it gives a nice view on combo-flavors and all possibilities that are available and next to that you show that combo-lists can be toyed with.

I also agree that in overall, the pro's are ignoring the european legacy meta-game. Since it has adapted without a problem to vengevival lists, since actually it has a rough time getting multiple good results in a row.

As said before: great article and even as a player that's familiar with legacy, besides nothing new, it was a good read and a clear view for combo.
Sometimes articles like these are a good read even for the experienced legacy players.. This was one of those articles.

[DragoFireheart]

Excellent article! The blurb on the food was funny and the listing of the combo decks is nice as well. I liked how Elves got a mention as that deck is a sort of aggro-combo deck that works quite well in the correct meta.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Where was the "Decks for people who like to think too much: Doomsday" ?

Also, its a solid primer for new people who don't know all the fancy legacy interactions yet.

[Pastorofmuppets]

That Elves deck hurts me just to look at. QUIRION ELVES?!
Come on, man.
Viridian Zealot?
blech.
No Quirion Ranger?
2 Regal Force?
Elvish Archdruid over Joraga Warcaller?
Acidic Slime?
No Eternal Witness?
How did that list go anywhere?

[voltron00x]

Stephen Menendian once noted that the problem with “budget” decks in Vintage is more in the lack of design and use by top-caliber players, rather than some inherent problem with the strategy of “budget” decks in the format. With regard to Elves in Legacy, I often think there’s a lot of the same problem.

[Amon Amarth]

I really think you dropped the ball on this one. I mean, come on! Whenever there was a time to make a Harry Potter reference, it was certainly then. :P Tee hee, otherwise good intro to Legacy Combo decks.

[Draener]

I'm surprised that the new ooze combo wasn't in the list. There's a thread on it in the new and developing forum, http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19026-Non-Survival-Ooze/ . Short of the duals, it seems decently cheap to build and is much easier to play than TES.

[frogboy]

I like the article. I tried making Breakfast work a while ago, but the problem is that basically every card in the format is bad for you. It's a combo deck that has to do an embarrassing amount of work to beat Grim Lavamancer.

[voltron00x]

Breakfast maybe becomes a reasonable deck if the Survival / Anti-Survival meta comes to pass, and the normal aggro decks end up in the crapper.

But, maybe not. It takes a lot of splash damage from cards like Faerie Macabre, Pithing Needle, Tormod’s Crypt, etc.

I’d just like it to be viable, it’s a very cool deck. Chapin’s version is interesting, lots of resistance built into his version.

[Mad Zur]

A couple quick points on Breakfast:

1. Tarmogoyf is more than an alternate win condition, it also protects the combo from damage-based removal (it's exactly what you want against the aforementioned Lavamancer). If you play Nomads, then Cephalid, the opponent has to respond by killing the Nomads. If you have another creature in play, Nomads can redirect damage to that creature, saving itself from burn. Tarmogoyf is pretty good at this, because it can usually survive at least one removal spell, forcing the opponent to have three in order to disrupt you. In a lot of games, Tarmogoyf is a blocker that gives your combo resiliency.

2. There's a little more to choosing the kill than you mention. Counting Tarmogoyf as part of the Ghoul kill isn't quite accurate. There are plenty of reasons to consider playing Goyf anyway, and if you want a set in your deck regardless of the kill, Ghoul actually requires less slots than Kiki (Ghoul and Dragon Breath vs. Kiki, Karmic Guide, and Psetermite/Sky Hussar). If you aren't already playing enough creatures to pump Ghoul, you can run a single Lord of Extinction, which makes the two even in slots. It's also important to consider certain kinds of hate that can hit one kill but not the other. For example, Maze of Ith and Moat stop the Ghoul kill while Pithing Needle and Ghostly Prison stop Kiki, In 2007, Pithing Needle was played but the other cards weren't, making Ghoul the right choice (on top of the extra slot). Maze and Moat are actually played now, probably making Kiki better at the moment, though Needle has made a comeback.

3. Xantid Swarm isn't very good with either of those kills, which both require attacking for the win.

I'm always on the lookout for a way to bring Breakfast back, but I doubt that now is the time, with Extirpate and Faerie Macabre being more popular than ever, and all other kinds of graveyard hate still running around. There are countermeasures (Abeyance, discard, Stifle, bounce, etc.) to different kinds of hate, but it's always difficult to fight through it when the hate is so prevalent and varied. I can't really see it (or any of these decks, honestly) being a better choice than Survival right now.

But this was, as usual, a solid article.

[emidln]

I remember building a version with 'Lark/Fanatic/Carrion Feeder/Body Double (designed as a budget deck originally) which worked something like this:

DR targets Body Double which comes into play as a Lark.
Therapy sacs Body Double, triggering the lark Leaves play so you can get back Feeder + Body Double.
(normal steps for the lark "flash" kill)

This has a benefit of allowing you to abuse Xantid Swarm (which has further synergy with Worldly Tutor and Aether Vial).

[Shabbaman]

My target audience here is more the newcomer to Legacy over the past 6-12 months, whose frame of reference is dominated by Mystical Tutor and Survival. I suspect a lot of people are overly concerned with Survival because, frankly, they’re not sure what can beat it.

"A lot of people", as in "the newcomer to Legacy" and "random people who don't know a thing about the format but happen to make a video column on youtube named the magic show"? In that aspect you could've stressed your message (assuming that your message is that banning Survival (or Mystical Tutor, which you already demonstrated in a brilliant article) would be dumb) more. Perhaps you should make your own podcast ;) I can get what you mean, but it's not blatantly obvious either. You are way too subtle!

[flrn]

Not even mentioning Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils?

[voltron00x]

flrn and others who love Doomsday: I get it, you love Doomsday. Doomsday is a very cool card. However, there are Tendrils decks that have performed better, and are significantly easier to play. It isn’t as easy to find Legacy results as it was (since a lot of the new search engines omit stuff like player count), and I didn’t find much in the way of viable Doomsday combo doing well in the latter half of this year. While one could definitely write an article that was nothing but varieties of Legacy Tendrils decks, that wasn’t my objective here. One of the reasons why I chose the ANT deck that I did, besides the fact that it did very well at a large event, was that it had a Doomsday sideboard. I did that purposefully to show that Doomsday is, in fact, a card, and does see some play. Now I know that you could point out that I included Breakfast, when Breakfast hasn’t really done much in a few years, but its an interesting deck that has some history and highlights a few available deck design decisions that we aren’t using right now; in other words, its there to show some history, expand horizons a bit, and get people’s minds in motion.

Mad Zur: Thanks for the clarifications on Breakfast, and Emidln also. I am not an expert with Breakfast at all, having watched it be played but never played with it myself.

Shabbaman: I’m pretty sure my target audience was able to discern what I meant there. A few of my recent articles have been as subtle as a freight train, so there needs to be some balance there or people tune out.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Stephen Menendian once noted that the problem with “budget” decks in Vintage is more in the lack of design and use by top-caliber players, rather than some inherent problem with the strategy of “budget” decks in the format. With regard to Elves in Legacy, I often think there’s a lot of the same problem.

There are some good players in the Elves thread here, they just can't come to a consensus on anything.
Some of them think Symbiote isn't one of the best parts of the deck.

[(nameless one)]

There are some good players in the Elves thread here, they just can't come to a consensus on anything.
Some of them think Symbiote isn't one of the best parts of the deck.

This.

I've always wanted to build an Elves combo deck but there are so many takes to it depending on the meta. Ruckus, k2thej and a few other have been working on the deck. Some run the deck via speed and some with consistency. Ruckus' paper build even runs Survival of the Fittest for consistency while others use cards such as Concordant Crossroads for the hasty kill. Some run Emrakul for win-con, while others do Grapeshot/Tendrils Kill. Joraga Warcaller is also used.

Like Dredge, its on the verge of being a top tier deck, but cannot really do it.

[Pastorofmuppets]

This.

I've always wanted to build an Elves combo deck but there are so many takes to it depending on the meta. Ruckus, k2thej and a few other have been working on the deck. Some run the deck via speed and some with consistency. Ruckus' paper build even runs Survival of the Fittest for consistency while others use cards such as Concordant Crossroads for the hasty kill. Some run Emrakul for win-con, while others do Grapeshot/Tendrils Kill. Joraga Warcaller is also used.

Like Dredge, its on the verge of being a top tier deck, but cannot really do it.

I run Grapeshot and Warcaller.
It goes quite well, but Firespout is a huge issue.

[Nessaja]

In the Netherlands there's pretty much a concencus on the best combo elves build. It's a very streamlined deck that borrows the most from the extended legal list in its prime.

[Pastorofmuppets]

In the Netherlands there's pretty much a concencus on the best combo elves build. It's a very streamlined deck that borrows the most from the extended legal list in its prime.

You're not suggesting Curio, are you? I'm hard-pressed to believe that the deck needs to lose to Artifact hate, too.

[Doomsday]

The Legacy version of the deck is like the real version, minus half of its draw engine. Who wants to play that?

[flrn]

flrn and others who love Doomsday: I get it, you love Doomsday. Doomsday is a very cool card. However, there are Tendrils decks that have performed better, and are significantly easier to play. It isn’t as easy to find Legacy results as it was (since a lot of the new search engines omit stuff like player count), and I didn’t find much in the way of viable Doomsday combo doing well in the latter half of this year. While one could definitely write an article that was nothing but varieties of Legacy Tendrils decks, that wasn’t my objective here. One of the reasons why I chose the ANT deck that I did, besides the fact that it did very well at a large event, was that it had a Doomsday sideboard. I did that purposefully to show that Doomsday is, in fact, a card, and does see some play. Now I know that you could point out that I included Breakfast, when Breakfast hasn’t really done much in a few years, but its an interesting deck that has some history and highlights a few available deck design decisions that we aren’t using right now; in other words, its there to show some history, expand horizons a bit, and get people’s minds in motion.

After the banning of mystical tutor some of the german top notch combo players have switched to Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils. At the german nationals legacy side event Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils ended up in second and third place. There were also some top 8 finishes of that deck in Iserlohn and Hassloch, which are the two largest monthly happening legacy events in germany. It might not be played in america, but here in germany you gotta expect to play against people piloting that deck.

[Bardo]

Solid article. I like these "State of the Format" articles through decklists.

Well done. :)

I hope the Card Which Must Not Be Mentioned is not smashed with the Hammer That Bans Things.

That would be an embarrassment to this format, I think. Like banning Goblin Lackey circa 2006.