[Deck] The Rock

[iamajellydonut]

She's fine, she's not great. Ask any Miracles pilot. They play off the top of their deck. Nuking half their lands is rough for them, sure, but she doesn't beat a Jace nor Entreat.

I agree that Liliana is lackluster in Rock against Miracles. Not because she doesn't beat Jace or Entreat (apples to oranges), but because her discard hurts you more than it hurts them. Limiting their hand size is still very effective because being able to play with no hand is only a backup plan, but without some discard outlet like Life from the Loam or Punishing Fire or some other fluff, it comes at the expense of either having to overinvest on the board or discard future threats and answers.

I do still find her effective against Omni though. Not necessarily the fastest card or the go-to card, but it's pretty tough to land a two card combo when you have no hand.

[Jain_Mor]

So yea, I hate chrome mox lol. Maybe I'll try diamond as a fun-of

Next card, has anyone had any experience with unexpectedly absent? It's as hard to cast a councils, and doesn't answer TNN, but it's instant speed which has value, especially when you are facing down an omniscience. You can try and put it back on their deck to interrupt their cantrip chain, since they are usually card famished from discard

Though it's possible that the better gameplan is to try and make sure they have to pass the turn after a show n tell (via canonist, teeg or discard) and then councils it then.

On a completely unrelated note..
I played omnitell in testing, I cast 2 seizes and a hymn in the game, leaving him empty handed with a goyf on board to pressure, except he responded to the hymn with brainstorm, discarded his hand drew for the turn, passed. I drew something inconsequential, he eot dig, untaps casts show for omni and then proceeds to cantrip into the win. Everything that annoys me about the format displayed in one game lol

Edit: may have been a seize and 2 hymns, I forget the exact sequence

He didn't interact with me the whole game except for when I was forcing him to discard, so depressing haha
#badbeatsrantstoryover


For those interested, here is where I'm at these days

4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
2 Treetop
4 Wasteland
22

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK / 2 hymn?
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Library
2 Souls
2 Council's Judgment
38
60

2 Surgical
2 Needle
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
1 deed

[sdematt]

My recent list has been testing well online:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Goyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 STP
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland

//

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Choke
2 Grip
2 Needle
2 Zealous Persecution

It's been doing well online. I've been liking Sculler a bit, actually. However, Omni, in general, is a REALLY good deck right now. Likely the best Dig deck in the format.

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

I'm coming to the conclusion that for as long as DTT is around, much like TC, it's going to be very difficult for this kind of deck to compete.

DTT/TC punish discard and interaction in general, with an extreme form of card selection combined with card advantage. It basically punishes us on our decks main axis of attack, which is to disrupt/grind the enemy while we overwhelm their answers with cheap threats.

We win by having the last threat on the board basically, and DTT/TC
nullifies that all. U midrange, U omnitell, Miracles even delver. It's pretty disheartening.

I'm going to a small tourney tomorrow, but I think that after it I'll probably be hanging up my bobs and goyfs and jumping back on nic fit, to go bigger.

Of note, I've been running two councils, and really liking them.

[ironclad8690]

Went 3-1 in a small 10 person tournament and finished 2nd due to good breakers.

Here is the list I played:

Rhino Rock

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Twilight Mire
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1: Sneak and Show (2-0)

Round 2: Bant Stoneblade (1-2, last game 2 TNN I couldn't answer)

Round 3: Jeskai Stoneblade (2-0)

Round 4: Infect (2-0)

I need to fix the manabase by adding more lands that cast Hymn to Tourach. I think -1 Savannah + 1 Scrubland might be the way to go. I also think I might even want Path to Exile in this deck rather than STP, because of the more Zoo aggro nature of the deck. Also, I think I need more TNN hate in the board, I really hate losing to that card. Even more than I hate losing to combo. Maybe -1 Pulse +1 Engineered Plague?

[Jain_Mor]

Change your two main deck pulses to Council's Judgment. Problem solved, you don't need to waste sideboard slots there :)

I went 3-1-1 in a 34 person tournament the other day.

Beat affininity, painter, MUD
Lost to omni tell 1-2 (he dig through timed in response to me exiling a land from his GY (I had none) to stop me from landing my etheraworn canonist so he could win next turn (someone kill that card please))

Then drew to the knight/devastating dreams Loam build, which was frustrating cause he ate all the time and I was in the winning position.

I ran two judgments and was real happy with them!
I cut my two surgicals for a choke and a krosan grip and regretted it a lot.
Now sneak and show is out of the picture I'm changing containment priests to something, either two sculler or 3rd Thalia and 3rd gaddock teeg

[Krimson Viper]

My recent list has been testing well online:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Goyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 STP
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland

//

3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Choke
2 Grip
2 Needle
2 Zealous Persecution

It's been doing well online. I've been liking Sculler a bit, actually. However, Omni, in general, is a REALLY good deck right now. Likely the best Dig deck in the format.

-Matt

I'm assuming the two cards that are missing in the main are Batterskull and Jitte?

I think I will start off with your deck as a starting point when my Tarmogoyfs come in as I have most of your listed cards. Anything specific I should know?

[useL]

I'd love to have the room to play Knight, Rhino, and Souls in the same deck, but alas...

-Matt

Clear your inbox please!

[useL]

Sorry to disturb. But is there such a thing as a junk-thread? I want to play Hymn and Goyf but no Stoneforge mystic. Where should I go?

[sdematt]

Here is fine. Ill clear when not on shitty mobile.

[Seraphix]

Sorry to disturb. But is there such a thing as a junk-thread? I want to play Hymn and Goyf but no Stoneforge mystic. Where should I go?

The Rock and its Junk descendants have been played since long before Stoneforge Mystic existed.

I don't play SFM in this deck.

[useL]

I am working with this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Gaddock Teeg
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Choke
SORCERIES (8)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
INSTANTS (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Cards I've had in the list and cut includes Siege Rhino, Life from the Loam, Eternal Witness, Council's Judgment. The board looks like this at the moment:

1 Life from the Loam
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council’s Judgment

Cards I am interested in looking at in the near future are Monastery Mentor (cabal therapy replacement, works quite well with the tops). I am unsure if I should have Council's Judgment or Zealous Persecution in the board now that I have double Lingering Souls against miracles in the main.

[maharis]

I recently revisited my list and play something similar to useL. I love the Courser + Top + Library engine.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Siege Rhino
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Bitterblossom
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas

I definitely want to cut Tasigur, he's just not as good here as in blue decks that fill the GY faster. I think I also want to cut Therapy, it's basically there to mise wins vs. combo but I think I'd rather just have Hymn more times than not. On the other hand, without Tas and already with playing a top-of-library engine Bob could creep back in too. Will have to test both but leaning toward Hymn to help vs. combo.

I am considering picking up Goyfs, but I feel like our creatures should do something besides attack and block and die to removal. I guess I could see going in useL's direction and playing Goyf over SFM, but SFM + tokens is a key way to grind out games. In fact, I am playing Solemn Visitor as my PW because the flying tokens can carry equipment nicely (and they also beat -1 effects). Would definitely board Lord of Innistrad though because that might be the best card in the game against the Miracles deck (Teeg is close, but harder to protect).

Finally, I like Bitterblossom over Souls for a few reasons:
-Coming down turn 2 is huge. Against combo decks, you basically get your clock started earlier without having to tap out on turn 3 for 2 1/1s. I'd much rather be GSZing for teeg or pridemage on that turn, or playing DRS + hymn, or something like that.
-Not affected by GY hate. While yes, them paying 2 mana to RIP your Souls down to a Midnight Haunting isn't the worst, Deathrite Shaman is a real jerk against Souls.
-Doesn't evaporate to Terminus.
-You get the life back with SSV or Jitte or Skull or Courser.

I am trying to make some time to test this deck but I do think it has a puncher's chance.

useL, why choke mainboard? I know it can be a bomb when it's a bomb but if I was going to play a blue-hate enchantment main Carpet of Flowers seems much better.

[useL]

Finally, I like Bitterblossom over Souls for a few reasons:
-Coming down turn 2 is huge. Against combo decks, you basically get your clock started earlier without having to tap out on turn 3 for 2 1/1s. I'd much rather be GSZing for teeg or pridemage on that turn, or playing DRS + hymn, or something like that.
-Not affected by GY hate. While yes, them paying 2 mana to RIP your Souls down to a Midnight Haunting isn't the worst, Deathrite Shaman is a real jerk against Souls.
-Doesn't evaporate to Terminus.
-You get the life back with SSV or Jitte or Skull or Courser.

I am trying to make some time to test this deck but I do think it has a puncher's chance.

useL, why choke mainboard? I know it can be a bomb when it's a bomb but if I was going to play a blue-hate enchantment main Carpet of Flowers seems much better.


1. Lingering Souls is a way to beat Miracles, Bitterblossom is another. I do believe that they are good at different things and I would never keep Lingering Souls in vs combo because it is simply too slow. We can agree that they do the same thing, create creatures "uncounterable" vs control decks and chump vs aggro. I like souls because I play 4 bob and take some damage allready, on top of that the souls from a topdeck at turn 7 creates 4 power instantly while Bitterblossom takes 2 whole turns before they deal the first point of damage.

2. I play without the following strong cards Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith and silverbullets like QP or SylvanSafekeeper. This makes my deck a different take that also makes it faster because of the less clunky 4-5 drops that other lists play. I see the list as a BUG delver list without the bad cards as daze and with strong cards like StP. Which brings me to your second question about choke, I have no use for Carpet in my list I feel. There is no great zeniths to be casted. And when you are in a topdeck war against miracles it doesnt matter if you have 5 or 9 mana available as long as they have their board intact. I want a fighting chance against Terminus and various CB/Top-Blade decks and Choke allows that.

Thank you so far for the useful comments, makes me think harder on card choices.

[sdematt]

Yeah, you're obviously going for a more aggro Junk build, like 2009/2010 era, and I don't think that's a bad thing in the meta. Another possible thing to think about it Sculler, since he's pressure and hand disruption, and if I were to replace something in the deck, it would be the Coursers (since they're more controlling than disruptive). Choke COULD also turn into Thoughtseize #4 or Cabal Therapy #1, which is good since you have Souls and such. Or, it could be a walker like: Elspeth, Garruk Relentless, Lord of Innistrad, or something like that.

Also, depending on how many Loam decks you expect to face, Surgical may just be better as Extirpate (slower in every other matchup, I agree, but depends what you're looking to nuke, right?). I think Jitte COULD be Zealous Persecution, but perhaps it is more likely CJ. CJ does hit Jace, but, if you're looking to kill TNN's and pump your stuff, ZP is prime. Plus, an edge against the Pyro decks would be nice. Grixis is the second highest performing deck between Miracles and Omni. With 2 Jitte/2 ZP in the board, that should be PRIME against all those 1/1's, as well as people playing DnT, Elves, etc. Against Jace, you still have Needle and your Choke, not to mention Teeg and Lingering Souls, and who knows? Maybe a walker/Bitterblossom.

-Matt

[useL]

Did some playtesting tonight against BUG Delver and Miracles. Just a few thoughts before they vanish in the mist. Changed a few cards (now play 2 lingering main and some changes to SB -1 jitte +1 zp)

http://www.svenskamagic.com/deckbox/index.php?ID=182514

The BUG Delver matchup seems like a cake walk. Permanents that he needs to answer like Choke, Sylvan, Top and creatures that stands up to his deck quite well. The souls are stellar vs his liliana and counterspells to buy time and I run two more removal than he does (2 STP) plus all the card filtering that he needs cantrips to do the same thing as. One or two turns where he draws a Daze or a delver that doesnt flip and the game would most often swing in my favour. The courser filtering and card advantage plus lifegain vs his delver beats was quite excellent. 6-1 in games

The miracles matchup felt quite allright. Hymn and Thoughtseize to clear the way for Sylvan and Bob and then annoying cards like souls that he cant counter. I love to play cards that pose a threat to swing the game entirely vs his deck. Landing bob, choke, sylvan or finding a gaddock teeg felt nice. Granted we did not sideboard but I really feel that the match will swing even further in my favour once I get to bring in cards like choke and needle/councils judgment while he gets to bring in 1-2 removal spells (councils judgment and wear//tear) feels quite nice. 5-2 in games

Right now the list feels quite strong and I would not like to change alot. Next playtesting session will be against Omnishow and DnT. Maybe next week.

[Warden]

Did some playtesting tonight against BUG Delver and Miracles. Just a few thoughts before they vanish in the mist. Changed a few cards (now play 2 lingering main and some changes to SB -1 jitte +1 zp)

http://www.svenskamagic.com/deckbox/index.php?ID=182514

The BUG Delver matchup seems like a cake walk. Permanents that he needs to answer like Choke, Sylvan, Top and creatures that stands up to his deck quite well. The souls are stellar vs his liliana and counterspells to buy time and I run two more removal than he does (2 STP) plus all the card filtering that he needs cantrips to do the same thing as. One or two turns where he draws a Daze or a delver that doesnt flip and the game would most often swing in my favour. The courser filtering and card advantage plus lifegain vs his delver beats was quite excellent. 6-1 in games

The miracles matchup felt quite allright. Hymn and Thoughtseize to clear the way for Sylvan and Bob and then annoying cards like souls that he cant counter. I love to play cards that pose a threat to swing the game entirely vs his deck. Landing bob, choke, sylvan or finding a gaddock teeg felt nice. Granted we did not sideboard but I really feel that the match will swing even further in my favour once I get to bring in cards like choke and needle/councils judgment while he gets to bring in 1-2 removal spells (councils judgment and wear//tear) feels quite nice. 5-2 in games

Right now the list feels quite strong and I would not like to change alot. Next playtesting session will be against Omnishow and DnT. Maybe next week.

I like the list with hymn. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about a MD choke...I'd personally opt for a vindicate or m.pulse. Again, souls is not my cup of tea, but if it's been working -- all the power to ya.

2 questions I ask for real (ie; not trolling or judging you):
1) Why not Vindicate over CJ? Is the shroud situation relevant (Mongoose, Emrakul, Thrun, TNN as the only serious threats I can think of)
2) How are you literally playing the Miracles matchup? Anything with Junk I just shit the bed past turn 1, where I can sometimes land DRS or thoughtseize. I'm curious if you're slamming discard into Liliana or just racing with a lone goyf backed by sylvan.

[useL]

I like the list with hymn. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about a MD choke...I'd personally opt for a vindicate or m.pulse. Again, souls is not my cup of tea, but if it's been working -- all the power to ya.

2 questions I ask for real (ie; not trolling or judging you):
1) Why not Vindicate over CJ? Is the shroud situation relevant (Mongoose, Emrakul, Thrun, TNN as the only serious threats I can think of)
2) How are you literally playing the Miracles matchup? Anything with Junk I just shit the bed past turn 1, where I can sometimes land DRS or thoughtseize. I'm curious if you're slamming discard into Liliana or just racing with a lone goyf backed by sylvan.

I play quite a few dead cards main deck depending what deck I play against. Against combo I have 6 dead cards (4 abrupt decay and 2 swords) on top of the slow creatures that are "semi-dead". Against some decks you might argue that other cards are dead (against UR Delver for instance thoughtseize and dark confidant are kind of bad). Considering this and the filtering I am able to do when I have top or sylvan in play I figured I could play one bomb that completely shuts down island-decks or atleast buys me a whole lot of turns. Often they run a singleton Councils in main and either it is in their GY or they have trouble finding it.

1) Emrakul, TNN and DTT are viable options. Also, Vindicate is quite bad against other cards like Stoneforge Mystic+Batterskull where CJ shines (either they dont get Bskull into play or they get their Bskull exciled). The upside with vindicate is quit stellar, to be able to kill lands. But another rising star on the legacy scene is the 20/20 flyer, it is quite nice to be able to have other outs than 2 swords and lilianaactivations. Even though an instant solution would be better since they always make that guy in end step. Edit: oh and Mother of Runes, Aether Vial and Wirewood Symbiote are another three excellent examples why CJ is better.

2) The card advantage is key. Protect bob/sylvan/top and never deploy more than 2 creatures at the same time. Lingering Souls are great at this since they also pressure jace and Gaddock Teeg actually works wonders once they swords your t1 shaman or t2 bob. If you want I could try to muster up a few videos of me playing against my friend at a later date. I have played miracles for about a year and even at a few bigger tournaments and therefor I have some grasp of their strong suits and weak spots. I can admit that Abrupt Decay came in handy in all games, at one point my first 7 was 2 decay, 1 deathrite, 1 bob and three lands. It is definately a keep since the miracles player often banks on getting card advantage through CB and if they cant they might loose due to that.

[Seraphix]

...
I am considering picking up Goyfs, but I feel like our creatures should do something besides attack and block and die to removal. I guess I could see going in useL's direction and playing Goyf over SFM, but SFM + tokens is a key way to grind out games.
...




...
2. I play without the following strong cards Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith and silverbullets like QP or SylvanSafekeeper. This makes my deck a different take that also makes it faster because of the less clunky 4-5 drops that other lists play. I see the list as a BUG delver list without the bad cards as daze and with strong cards like StP. Which brings me to your second question about choke, I have no use for Carpet in my list I feel. There is no great zeniths to be casted. And when you are in a topdeck war against miracles it doesnt matter if you have 5 or 9 mana available as long as they have their board intact. I want a fighting chance against Terminus and various CB/Top-Blade decks and Choke allows that.

Thank you so far for the useful comments, makes me think harder on card choices.

Personally, I don't like playing anything potentially clunky like SFM and GSZ in this deck. My plan is to be as streamlined as possible, destroy all their stuff, and have huge dudes:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland

SB is WIP right now...was playing E-Tutor board but not sure that's the way to go.

[useL]

Personally, I don't like playing anything potentially clunky like SFM and GSZ in this deck. My plan is to be as streamlined as possible, destroy all their stuff, and have huge dudes:

LIST

SB is WIP right now...was playing E-Tutor board but not sure that's the way to go.

The problem with your list, that surely works against fair decks is that it folds to a resolved Terminus unless you have a Sylvan in play. Few threats and too little card filtering with way too many removal cards for this new non-creature meta. If this was three years ago I would probably show up with that list to a GP, now, it simply wont cut it.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

The problem with your list, that surely works against fair decks is that it folds to a resolved Terminus unless you have a Sylvan in play. Few threats and too little card filtering with way too many removal cards for this new non-creature meta. If this was three years ago I would probably show up with that list to a GP, now, it simply wont cut it.

Not sure I agree with you until we see his/her sideboard. With my Shardless BUG deck I follow Lejay's thinking and play the percentages; build a strong G1 deck which has a greater chance of beating fair decks but, conversely, accept the G1 loss against combo and miracles and move on to G2. (Of course, this tactic assumes you know the majority of your opponents will be playing fair decks. That's still the case pretty much everywhere, right?)

But my SB is heavily weighted towards combo/miracles disruption, thereby tilting the odds in my favour for games 2 and 3. It's all about the percentages.

Using an old English figure of speech, the idea is that you don't try to make your G1 deck "a jack of all trades, master of none" because then you may end up with an average deck which has a higher chance of losing G1. Perhaps Seraphix is thinking of playing the same percentage game?

[Seraphix]

The problem with your list, that surely works against fair decks is that it folds to a resolved Terminus unless you have a Sylvan in play. Few threats and too little card filtering with way too many removal cards for this new non-creature meta. If this was three years ago I would probably show up with that list to a GP, now, it simply wont cut it.

I don't disagree with this. But when you put it this way, why even play The Rock at all? If your plan is to beat Miracles and combo, you probably want Force of Will in your deck.

While they provide resilience, I don't like Souls without equipment-they're just too slow of a clock. Also, I've never been sold on Choke as the solution to Miracles, it is a very beatable card for them. Running Top and Library to improve draw quality is an idea I can get behind though.


Not sure I agree with you until we see his/her sideboard. With my Shardless BUG deck I follow Lejay's thinking and play the percentages; build a strong G1 deck which has a greater chance of beating fair decks but, conversely, accept the G1 loss against combo and miracles and move on to G2. (Of course, this tactic assumes you know the majority of your opponents will be playing fair decks. That's still the case pretty much everywhere, right?)

But my SB is heavily weighted towards combo/miracles disruption, thereby tilting the odds in my favour for games 2 and 3. It's all about the percentages.

Using an old English figure of speech, the idea is that you don't try to make your G1 deck "a jack of all trades, master of none" because then you may end up with an average deck which has a higher chance of losing G1. Perhaps Seraphix is thinking of playing the same percentage game?

I follow the same logic simply by convention, but it may not be correct anymore. It is certainly harder to "pre-board" against combo when you aren't playing Brainstorm.

[Warden]

I want to say the overall meta is vulnerable to discard. I'm thinking playing 2 of TS/IoK/Hymn. That's where Rock wants to be right now IMHO. Everything competitive shits the bed against double discard turn 1 + turn 2 (especially if you can hymn turn 2). The question, as others note, is whether Liliana is worth running. Is she? Liliana is just so "meh" vs whatever you'd consider the current blend of decks in the meta to be. Creature decks just swarm her. Combo doesn't really give a shit about her. Miracles works under her assuming top is in play (based on my awful experiences, it will be a solid % of the time).

I'm serious about this discard talk too. I think Rock just needs to come out swinging with serious pressure turn 1, 2, and 3 almost like Jund. Sure, discard in the late-game gets progressively worse. I think we need to re-evaluate getting that deep into games in the first place.

[sdematt]

Discard is good at fueling Dig through Time. I agree it's "good," but it also fuels the way they get out of your discard strategy, making it a tad awkward especially in the Omni matchup. You need it, but you REALLY hate to have to have it. You board all that shit out against most of the other DTT decks, and against Miracles, they're only running 1-2.

Philipp and I agree that Jund/Junk is the best matchup against Miracles right now, but not necessary against the rest of the meta (because that deck is Miracles, at least Philipp says, and I tend to agree). With a combination of hatebears and such, Miracles has a tough time dealing with certain threats, like Thrun, Sylvan, Teeg, Souls, walkers, etc. The problem is that if you don't stick a Sylvan or a Confidant and ride that fucker as hard as you can, you get murdered by their virtual and real card advantage. Discard means less in this matchup when they're playing 12 cantrips to find their business. Obviously taking Top on turn 1 is great, but them being able to assemble it again soon is rough stuff, too.

SFM may be "clunky," but it gives your flyers an edge and it quickens the clock. Remember, if you're wanting to pressure with one guy, equipment is going to be the best way to protect and do it. Tarmogoyf isn't so good against a deck with 4 STP, 3-4 Snapcaster, and 4 Terminus, along with many, many ways to find it all. However, something with a Sword of Light and Shadow goes a long way, as Philipp and I have discussed.

Nic Fit has a problem in that its main ramp engine is what Miracles wants to do, but the threats you want to go into are ideal. Big walkers, Deeds, and evasive threats like Stormbreath Dragon and such. I'm preparing for Lille now that exams are over, so I'm going back and forth on what to play. LIKELY Jund Nic Fit is the "right" call with the blue meta, but experience is key in large tournaments, so I may opt for Junk Nic Fit with Slaughter Games. I think Reanimator is an EXCELLENT meta call right now, so we'll see.

CREATURES (16)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Stoneforge Mystic

ENCHANTMENTS (3)
3 Sylvan Library

SORCERIES (9)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
1 Green Sun's Zenith

INSTANTS (7)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares

ARTIFACTS (4)
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

LANDS (22)
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Here, we've got a good mix of everything. A little of this, a little of that. No Pulse makes me a tiny bit sad, but whatever. Gotta do what you've got to do.

I think that Canonist may have to make its way back in just due to Omni. Fuck, I hate that matchup. Sculler is pretty sweet. Teeg is a gem in the Miracles matchup, though. I'm tempted to shove in a walker or Bitterblossom, though.

The main players in the metagame are:

1) Miracles
2) Omni
3) Grixis Delver
4) Various flavours of Delver/Stoneforge Mystic decks
5) ANT/TES Storm
6) Everyone else

We already have a decent play against most of the other fair decks, like Delver and Stoneforge Mystic, so our sideboard has to reflect beating Combo, Miracles, and the "everyone else."

//SIDEBOARD

2 Zealous Persecution (Elves, DnT, TNN, and Grixis Delver are going to show up in droves at a European Legacy event).
2 Gaddock Teeg (because Miracles, Combo, and incidentally hating on random stuff seems good)
2 Krosan Grip (because fuck you Omni/Miracles. MUD is seeing increased play because it shits on the Top 3 guys, let's fuck them up)
2 Pithing Needle (because fuck you Miracles/Sneak/Griselbrand/etc.)
2 Choke (Blue, go die now plez)
2 Tidehollow Sculler (Combo)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)

The last slot is tough. A possible call is just something like Deed, EE, Golgari Charm, Bitterblossom, another walker, Surgical, etc. I really don't know what to put here. Timely Reinforcements is nice in many matchups, and helps hedge against randoms with Burn and the like.

[Warden]

@sdematt: If you're opting for 2 ZP as your catch-all sweeper, I'd suggest Toxic Deluges instead. Despite costing 1 more it can nuke x/2 or x/3, which in my experiences meant surviving or dying. I like Garruk or Elspeth in the board. Some like Sorrin. The only thing I caution is how your build hedges its bets on disruption. Should a deck land jace or some stupid permanent, you have no way of eliminating it.

MD suggestion I'd swap Library #3 for SDT #2 (balanced 2:2). I know you love 3 Libraries, but try it out. The lone GSZ could be your pulse/vind.

[Seraphix]

...
SFM may be "clunky," but it gives your flyers an edge and it quickens the clock. Remember, if you're wanting to pressure with one guy, equipment is going to be the best way to protect and do it. Tarmogoyf isn't so good against a deck with 4 STP, 3-4 Snapcaster, and 4 Terminus, along with many, many ways to find it all. However, something with a Sword of Light and Shadow goes a long way, as Philipp and I have discussed.
...


Swords are definitely some of the best cards you can have against Miracles. The only caveat of Swords in non-Blue shells is you need to be running a critical mass of creatures to make them effective. Playing BW Blade was super frustrating for me because I always seemed to be drawing discard when I needed a creature to equip. The problem with upping the creature count and becoming more creature-based and less spell-based is you get destroyed even more by Terminus (look at Maverick).

[Jain_Mor]

Swords are definitely some of the best cards you can have against Miracles. The only caveat of Swords in non-Blue shells is you need to be running a critical mass of creatures to make them effective. Playing BW Blade was super frustrating for me because I always seemed to be drawing discard when I needed a creature to equip. The problem with upping the creature count and becoming more creature-based and less spell-based is you get destroyed even more by Terminus (look at Maverick).

That's why we play lingering souls, and occasionally man lands

[datanaga]

I found Sword of Light and Shadow abilities quite useless against miracles,
because our creatures are removed or put on the botton
norton and life gain doesnt matter, only white protection is relevant on teeg, but it is hard to do it. I prefer sword of fire and ice, didnt test feast and famine yet.

[Seraphix]

That's why we play lingering souls, and occasionally man lands

Well yes, I was playing Souls. While I don't have a lot of experience with it in Legacy, it just seems underwhelming in a lot of other matchups. I'd be happy to be wrong about this though.


I found Sword of Light and Shadow abilities quite useless against miracles,
because our creatures are removed or put on the botton
norton and life gain doesnt matter, only white protection is relevant on teeg, but it is hard to do it. I prefer sword of fire and ice, didnt test feast and famine yet.

Fire and Ice has the best effects but I prefer Light and Shadow against Miracles just because of the pro-White. They can't plow your equipped guy and you can sneak by Angels. I've even tried War and Peace against Miracles to try and get a little of both, I think its worse than Light and Shadow though.

[Claymore]

I feel the need for Collected Company. Is that more of a Maverick card?

EOT get Knight and/or SFM instant speed, possibly keep up with DTT.

[Echelon]

These lists play a max of 16 creatures. How do you think this is going to work? In the top 6 cards there'll be an average of roughly 1,5 creature. And I'm not even starting on the opportunity cost.

Collected Company just isn't a Legacy card.

[T-101]

Well yes, I was playing Souls. While I don't have a lot of experience with it in Legacy, it just seems underwhelming in a lot of other matchups. I'd be happy to be wrong about this though.

Lingering Souls IS underwhelming in many match-ups, but it's so good against Miracles that it can be worth running. If you're not running Teegs and/or GSZ somewhere, Lingering Souls is about the best maindeck hedge card against Miracles.

[Kanti]

It also doesn't seem half bad against a Delver, or at chump blocking a Goyf. And it can make you race with evasive beaters out of nowhere.

[Mr. Safety]

I played in a local weekly yesterday, 9 players, and went undefeated. They let anyone enter with any deck so I do run into new kids occasionally.

R1- mono-red newb deck, 80+ cards no sideboard. I goldfished for 2 wins and under 20 minutes reported in. I tried to bestow a little wisdom about magic, land count, and the legacy format.
R2- ANT- Game one has me landing a Bob who feeds me scullers and thoughtseizes. It takes a bit but get there with him having only mana available. Game 2 I get pyroclasmed on turn three that wipes out a deathrite and bob. T4 double LED into infernal for pif kills me deader than dead. G3 I mull to 5 and put all hope in a sculler, bob, and 3 lands. He probe/therapies me and takes sculler. Bob draws HOT and feeds me what seems like endless thoughtseizes. I get there on turn 10 or so after he grapeshoots my scooze but liliana lives and wins it for me.
R3- bant stoneblade- Two grindy games that I can't remember half of, but Library in both games is key. My sideboard is really well suited to beating fair decks. Fun magic, scooze and jitte were mvps.
R4- CHESTER (rip, helm, energy field deck) its getting late so I don't remember a lot of details, but discard wins game one and matching each rip with a decay g2 was sweet. Both games he lands a true name and I have liliana active. G2 he has one card in hand (helm) and I topdeck liliana from Library. Close shave, but seriously, library is the nuts.

List:
Drop a Deuce (2 slot is a bit backed up. ..)
4x deathrite
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
3x stoneforge
3x sculler
4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kozilek
4x swords to plowshares
3x abrupt decay
1x vindicate
2x liliana
1x bskull
1x jitte
2x library
4x verdant
1x windswept heath
1x marsh flats
1x misty rainforest
2x scrubland
1x bayou
1x temple garden
1x overgrown tomb
2x swamp
1x forest
1x plains
1x treetop village
1x volraths stronghold
3x wasteland

Sideboard
2x scavenging ooze
2x surgical extraction
2x lingering souls
2x zealous persecution
1x pithing needle
1x pernicious deed
1x gaddock teeg
2x choke
2x kor firewalker

Not a lot of tier deck action, but the games were interactive and skill testing (beyond r1.) Deck felt strong in a vacuum. I felt that inquisition was lackluster, sculler is a better additional targeted hate. I didn't draw many goyfs but whenever I did I was relieved to have a fast clock to finish games. I liked souls in the board and sculler main, just not sure what to replace it with. For curves sale it should be a one drop or three drop, preferably a 1 drop. Thinking green suns zenith for one of them and maybe a third liliana. Suggestions welcome.

Not a significant report by any means, but a fun day and I wanted to share. Going undefeated feels good, even if it is like playing basketball with midgets (in some matchups.) Got store credit for the record, nabbed a couple mm15 boosters and got an Iona, a Dark Confidant, and a foil Midnight Banshee (oooooh...)

[lavafrogg]

Awesome!

I hVe been dabbling with other decks but GBw has always been in my heart. I know that we are never twit 1 so we are allowed to throw out crazy ideas whenever we want, check this out.

4 deathrite shaman
4 hypnotic specter
4 dark confidant
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddock teeg
1 courser of kruphix
1 pridemage

4 thoughtsieze
4 hymn to tourach
4 green suns zenith
4 Lilliana of the veil
4 abrupt decay
3 tops

21 lands

12 turn 1 plays
8 turn 2 3 drops that have to be answered no matter what.

I think hypnotic specter might be good intodays meta, bonus is she blocks delver for days!

[Echelon]

I think hypnotic specter might be good intodays meta, bonus is she blocks delver for days!

Hippy blocks Delver once. And dies to Bolt, AD & StP.

[dsck]

In a meta where people race to fill their graves for Dig Through Time I dont see the appeal of Hypnotic Specter.

[lavafrogg]

In a meta where people race to fill their graves for Dig Through Time I dont see the appeal of Hypnotic Specter.

Gaddock teeg is to shut down dig through time, turn 2 hippie is what I will be testing.

[Mr. Safety]

In a meta where people race to fill their graves for Dig Through Time I dont see the appeal of Hypnotic Specter.
This has me wondering about maindeck scooze. Deathrite is good, but not a hoser like scooze. I feel that death and taxes along with deadguy ale are well placed by using rip in the board. I agree, hyppie is not the powerhouse it used to be. Lingering souls is much better for three and dig is a big reason why sculler is good now due to the exile effect. I don't think hyppie even sees play in the gate or evagreen anymore.

[Tokugawa]

This has me wondering about maindeck scooze. Deathrite is good, but not a hoser like scooze. I feel that death and taxes along with deadguy ale are well placed by using rip in the board. I agree, hyppie is not the powerhouse it used to be. Lingering souls is much better for three and dig is a big reason why sculler is good now due to the exile effect. I don't think hyppie even sees play in the gate or evagreen anymore.

And I don't think The gate or Eva Green are "living" decks anymore.

[lavafrogg]

But has anyone actually cast a specter off of a deathrite shaman?

BG decks have been struggling with ways to keep pressure on and specters will do that. Early discard into specter/dark confidant with GSZ into teeg or scavenging ooze to lock out the DTT/graveyard engines. I imagine a Liliana or two would also be in the list to toss dead discard and to limit the opponents options.

[Echelon]

But has anyone actually cast a specter off of a deathrite shaman?

BG decks have been struggling with ways to keep pressure on and specters will do that. Early discard into specter/dark confidant with GSZ into teeg or scavenging ooze to lock out the DTT/graveyard engines. I imagine a Liliana or two would also be in the list to toss dead discard and to limit the opponents options.

Try again whilst taking your opponents' plan into account. Your T1 DRS is very much a lightning rod for removal, for instance. That means that you'll drop your Specter T3 (whilst risking a Daze in the face), which means it'll attack no sooner than T4. In the meantime your opponent is setting up the CounterTop-lock or just combos out by the time you make your first swing.

I reckon you get where I'm going with this?

[damionblackgear]

But has anyone actually cast a specter off of a deathrite shaman?

BG decks have been struggling with ways to keep pressure on and specters will do that. Early discard into specter/dark confidant with GSZ into teeg or scavenging ooze to lock out the DTT/graveyard engines. I imagine a Liliana or two would also be in the list to toss dead discard and to limit the opponents options.

Ideas seem to only get scrutinized anymore :frown: Stray from the path and this forum is not really much help. Give hippie a comeback shot. What's the worst that could happen?

My 2-cents:
-I never added it to the deck because it didn't come down fast enough, even when I had diamonds in my list.
-Liliana was printed when I wanted to contain hand sizes. I knew it was random vs choice but Liliana gave me removal as well.
-Magical X-mas land does happen. Sometimes Santa comes. Sometimes, Krampus comes. Try not to tint your opinion based on a couple of games.
-Most things that say destroy, exile, or damage kill creatures. So, don't care about the removal aspect. At least it's terror proof.

Good luck on your testing. I hope it turns out as well as mine (again own a sapphire).

[Echelon]

Ideas seem to only get scrutinized anymore :frown: Stray from the path and this forum is not really much help.

And responding to every idea with "yeah, that's the most amazing thing ever" is? Contemplate a bit more on why so many ideas are shot down, will you. You're kinda like the guy expecting a standing ovation from all Elves! players when he suggested Elves! should drop Glimpse of Nature and Natural Order for Collected Company and Ezuri. Without making the effort to explain why this would be a wonderful change, mind you.

[damionblackgear]

Has anyone else tried different things lately? I seems like everyone's having less than stellar results with the standard builds. Or they're playing other decks almost exclusively. I'm using a modified version of the Mikokoru list I posted a couple pages ago. I'm enjoying the current iteration and have turned out to have pretty good results with it but understand that people don't want to use Mikokoro.


And responding to every idea with "yeah, that's the most amazing thing ever" is? Contemplate a bit more on why so many ideas are shot down, will you. You're kinda like the guy expecting a standing ovation from all Elves! players when he suggested Elves! should drop Glimpse of Nature and Natural Order for Collected Company and Ezuri. Without making the effort to explain why this would be a wonderful change, mind you.

That looks to be intended as an exceptionally hurt response. My inbox has been feeling pretty neglected lately. You're welcome to continue your rant there.

On a sidenote, it is funny though because I am That Guy you mentioned, except that added part about not explaining things. It's even funnier if you know who I am. You have definitely never read my any posts. I'm big on theory behind my choices.

[Richard Cheese]

My version was doing pretty well last time I played it, but Legacy has kinda died out around here and I haven't played in over a month.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Has anyone else tried different things lately?

Try different things? What are you talking about? That's heresy! Drink the kool-aid, fly under the radar and none of this "thinking outside of the box" nonsense. Suggesting an original idea and asking for constructive criticism is not allowed here.

;-)

[lavafrogg]

Thanks for the support/comments?

The logic behind the specter is that we need continuous pressure on multiple fronts to be able to compete with all of the strategies currently in legacy. The core is bob/specter/Liliana to provide CA wity GSZ as support to the core.

Currently I am trying to decide if I want to abuse Lilliana more than just with top and confidant Lingering souls/loam are options at this point.

[Mr. Safety]

I believe the best way to pressure the format is to have disruption on curve (thoughtseize into sculler into liliana) or to disrupt and then start racing. I like hyppie a lot, and I also like vampire nighthawk. And kitchen finks. And knight of the reliquary. However, there is only so much room to include utility creatures that you have to wait on. Some are obviously worth it like deathrite and confidant. Hyppie doesn't provide immediate value like sculler, hymn, or liliana. Long story short (too late I know): if your opponent can't deal with hypnotic specter they likely wouldn't be able to deal with a follow up goyf, souls, sculler, or liliana either.

Lavafrogg, how do you feel about cutting white and getting more aggressive? I think hyppie lends itself to that approach very well. It makes for a strategy that wants its threats to pull double duty rather than simply being the best at what it does. I think cutting some number of targeted discard or hymns for hyypie is a decent approach, I would think you'd eventually get to evagreen though. You're talking pressure and tempo over strict card advantage or good-stuff value. I hope you'll keep us posted on testing results.

I am however full aboard the Sylvan Library train. I would rather have focused, immediate value cards and ways to draw more of them or filter into them. Debating a 3rd or even something like Sign in Blood. The ability to hit a critical mass of threats and disruption is what sets it apart from other decks in my humble opinion.

[damionblackgear]

Thanks for the support/comments?

The logic behind the specter is that we need continuous pressure on multiple fronts to be able to compete with all of the strategies currently in legacy. The core is bob/specter/Liliana to provide CA wity GSZ as support to the core.

Currently I am trying to decide if I want to abuse Lilliana more than just with top and confidant Lingering souls/loam are options at this point.

For a little while I was using Exile into Darkness to help make Liliana less symmetrical. Early game it comes back, most times, but it also got eaten by about twice as many Deathrite as it got a chance to take out. I've got it cut right now though. Testing out a singleton Hymn to pair with act as a third to Gerrard's Verdict current in board. It wasn't bad if you saw it in your opener but the combo/control matches were more relevant in my area. I, at max, had two but preferred it to act as Diabolic Edict 3. At :4::b: it was a extremely over-costed for legacy. It did allow you to use Liliana without hurting your hand after the first recursion.

[lavafrogg]

The problem is that punishing fire is just the best card to pair with Lilliana. Lingering souls is good, but only with equipment and not as good as punishing fire with feeding the planes walker.

[lavafrogg]

I have also been playing around with a entomb/reanimate package with Iona and sheoldred main deck as the 2 bombs.

Anyone else have any new ideas?

[Echelon]

That looks to be intended as an exceptionally hurt response. My inbox has been feeling pretty neglected lately. You're welcome to continue your rant there.

On a sidenote, it is funny though because I am That Guy you mentioned, except that added part about not explaining things. It's even funnier if you know who I am. You have definitely never read my any posts. I'm big on theory behind my choices.

Not in the slightest, I fear you misinterpreted. And yeah, that does explain a thing or two.

@Lavafrogg: Cheating creatures into play is always fun and often a quick road to victory if you manage to pull it off. I'd go with Elesh Norn over Sheoldred though. You want to make sure your creature makes an impact as soon as it hits the battlefield. Makes it less horrible when your opponent manages to get rid of it before it gets the chance to do its thing.

[lavafrogg]

Not in the slightest, I fear you misinterpreted. And yeah, that does explain a thing or two.

@Lavafrogg: Cheating creatures into play is always fun and often a quick road to victory if you manage to pull it off. I'd go with Elesh Norn over Sheoldred though. You want to make sure your creature makes an impact as soon as it hits the battlefield. Makes it less horrible when your opponent manages to get rid of it before it gets the chance to do its thing.

I meant Elesh Norn, my bad.

Against non interactive decks it would give us an option to fight more proactively. Thoughtsieze into entomb/reanimate against show and tell would be an easy game one.

Like I said, I am trying to be relevant again.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

In the spirit of new ideas, and at the risk of being shot down in flames, and I'm not sure this deck belongs in this thread, here's my 'Eva Dead-Rock' variant which I've being playing on Xmage. Very small sample of results to date but currently standing at 22-16 in games and 9-6 in matches. Notable wins against Omni, Reanimator, 4cLoam/Maverick/whatever, BUG Delver, DnT, Stoneblade/Deathblade/whatever, Storm and Merfolk. Notable losses against Omni x2 (different players), RUG Delver x2 and Belcher. No matches against Miracles or Affinity yet.

There are multiple lines of attack: i) reanimate their fattie after TS/Therapy or mine after discarding to Prowler/TS/Therapy, ii) Prowler is a surprisingly nimble beat stick, iii) Lingering Souls is good enough to go up to 3 in the main, iv) Abysssal Persecutor is good for a few 'wtf?" moments when they see it, v) the usual suspects (Bob, Goyf, DRS and Scooze) do their stuff as per usual and due to their high profile they usually get killed on sight which allows Prowler, Souls and Abby to do their stuff under the radar.

No Liliana. Yes, I know, crazy. I think the deck is too aggro for Lilly and I've found that opponents have to discard to Prowler to stay alive, so the Prowler has more value in an aggro deck. But that's up for debate.

In the early game, if they have creatures, kill 'em all. Then hit with quick evasive damage, averaging 3-6 points per attack. If they are light on creatures then move straight to combat asap.

It's a bit weak against Combo game 1, so I'm experimenting with appropriate SB hate to match up in Games 2 and 3.

Take it away boys and girls...


//22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

//22 Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Lingering Souls
3 Reanimate
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate

//16 Creatures
2 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Oona's Prowler
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

//Sideboard
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Choke
1 Zealous Persecution

[lavafrogg]

Why persecutor?

I would think something with more splash value like Sigarda would be good at the top end of the curve. Also, hymn seems better than cabal therapy in this list as you only really want to sacrifice souls and persecutors.

Oona's Prower is seeing play in modern right now, it is a shame GB madness isn't a real deck in legacy.

I was looking at :

13 creatures
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze

25 spells
4 green suns zenith
4 reanimate
4 entomb
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 liliana
1 unburial rites
1 life from the loam
1 ravens crime

22 land

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Why persecutor?
....

1 unburial rites
1 raven's crime

....



I hadn't considered Sigarda. Food for thought. On reflection, Abby's cmc is only 4 (reanimate and Bob!), it's +1/+1 and finding BB to hard cast isn't normally a problem. Sigarda has advantages but, even one turn later, I'm not sure I could do GWW anyway.

Re the hymn/therapy suggestion: with Therapy, Vindicate, ToxicD and StP, I have 8 possible kills for Abby. Reducing down to 5 might be a bit greedy?

Unburial Rites is interesting. Chalice on 1 has slowed me down a couple of times. Gets around counter/top. Hmmm.... more food for thought.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Mr. Safety]

Why persecutor?

I would think something with more splash value like Sigarda would be good at the top end of the curve. Also, hymn seems better than cabal therapy in this list as you only really want to sacrifice souls and persecutors.

Oona's Prower is seeing play in modern right now, it is a shame GB madness isn't a real deck in legacy.

I was looking at :

13 creatures
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze

25 spells
4 green suns zenith
4 reanimate
4 entomb
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 liliana
1 unburial rites
1 life from the loam
1 ravens crime

22 land

I was like "hell yeah!" Until I saw the set of gsz and targets. Its a slower route, one at odds with your reanimate for cheap/fast beats. I think it would be awesome to abuse prowler more, possibly with Vengevine and/or bloodghast. It puts a lot of stock in your graveyard, bt that's ok. Regardless I think the grindy gsz plan is clunky when you could go for more disruption into a fatty. I would begin by putting 4-6 library manipulators into the deck. Sdt and library are the two most likely candidates but cycle lands into loam is another (slower) route. Wasteland isn't listed, but it should be a given with loam.

The other thing on my mind is that its a great start to using Gifts Ungiven. The gifts> fatty> rites combo is classic modern tech. The singleton loam and crime also hints at gifts piles.

[lavafrogg]

I was like "hell yeah!" Until I saw the set of gsz and targets. Its a slower route, one at odds with your reanimate for cheap/fast beats. I think it would be awesome to abuse prowler more, possibly with Vengevine and/or bloodghast. It puts a lot of stock in your graveyard, bt that's ok. Regardless I think the grindy gsz plan is clunky when you could go for more disruption into a fatty. I would begin by putting 4-6 library manipulators into the deck. Sdt and library are the two most likely candidates but cycle lands into loam is another (slower) route. Wasteland isn't listed, but it should be a given with loam.

The other thing on my mind is that its a great start to using Gifts Ungiven. The gifts> fatty> rites combo is classic modern tech. The singleton loam and crime also hints at gifts piles.

The GSZ might be clunky but it offers a lot of interaction in many match ups. The goal I have in mind is to be a rock type deck with a reanimate/combo kill. The pros are that you can interact with combo on turn 2 as reanimate/entomb are so cheap and can be fired off whenever we think they will resolve.

[Mr. Safety]

The GSZ might be clunky but it offers a lot of interaction in many match ups. The goal I have in mind is to be a rock type deck with a reanimate/combo kill. The pros are that you can interact with combo on turn 2 as reanimate/entomb are so cheap and can be fired off whenever we think they will resolve.

More disruption will help to ensure it resolves as quickly as possible, important against combo and counterbalance. I'm not saying it can't be good I'm just saying that more disruption (especially abrupt decay) would game further towards supporting your goal than gsz. Your only real good target for those matchups is teeg. Miracles can easily deal with him (because you aren't pressuring their hand as much) and storm will just go for it game one to avoid thoughtseize/hymn and g2 will board in pyroclasm and go for the pif route. You are strengthening your fair matchups while conceding a bit more to miracles and a small extent combo. Obviously these are my opinions ajd welcome dialogue.

[sdematt]

So I ran Junk back at the side events at GP Lille after I was crushed 2-3 then dropped in the main event of GP Lille when I was playing Punishing Jund. Getting 0-2'd by LED Dredge and MUD nut draws in the first two rounds is always fun when you fly across the ocean to play Magic.

This is the list I ran (surprise, surprise):

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Sylvan Library
3 Equipment
3 Lingering Souls
1 GSZ
1 Garruk Relentless
3 STP
4 Decay

22 lands

2 Zealous
2 Teeg
2 Canonist
2 Grip
2 Choke
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle

And the usual stuff. I lost to Infect because in Game 1 I made a play mistake, and game 2 he had the nut draw and I was on shaky mana. I also lost to...Sneak and Show in the first round of the side event. Nice deck, bro. Had all deez for Omni, but not for you. Leyline is a concession to Dig Through Time and the random graveyard decks that show up in tournament side events like these.

UseL was at the event and did a bit better than I did in the main and side events. I really like Lingering Souls against Miracles, but it may need some work. We could easily see that the break out deck of the tournament was the main stream knowledge of Niklas' 4C Loam deck, which I really like. Chalice is really good, and Knight with Chalice is excellent. The problem? That deck is absolutely nutted by Abrupt Decay. The solution? The meta is hostile for Decay decks. So, the question is, do we want to bring Knight back? People argue yes, but without Decay to protect him, I'd rather have something else, in my opinion.

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

Getting 0-2'd by LED Dredge and MUD nut draws in the first two rounds is always fun when you fly across the ocean to play Magic.

I feel. :(

No byes?

[sdematt]

Unforts no.

I didn't grind too well for them.

-Matt

[JamieW89]

Somewhat off-topic, but a funny story: We fantasy drafted people for the GP, and one guy in our car was about to pick sdematt. I was like "isn't he from Canada..?", but he said you'd be there. He ended up drafting someone else. However, in round-1 of the very first trial on Friday he gets paired up against.. Matt. Funny coïncidence :p

[Julian23]

This is probably the most random and entertaining story of the entire GP :laugh:

[Warden]

So I ran Junk back at the side events at GP Lille after I was crushed 2-3 then dropped in the main event of GP Lille when I was playing Punishing Jund. Getting 0-2'd by LED Dredge and MUD nut draws in the first two rounds is always fun when you fly across the ocean to play Magic.

Right in the feels....damn that sucks.


UseL was at the event and did a bit better than I did in the main and side events. I really like Lingering Souls against Miracles, but it may need some work. We could easily see that the break out deck of the tournament was the main stream knowledge of Niklas' 4C Loam deck, which I really like. Chalice is really good, and Knight with Chalice is excellent. The problem? That deck is absolutely nutted by Abrupt Decay. The solution? The meta is hostile for Decay decks. So, the question is, do we want to bring Knight back? People argue yes, but without Decay to protect him, I'd rather have something else, in my opinion.
-Matt

She's my girl. All day and all knight (see what I did there?). Seriously though, Niklas showed me an almost identical deck at GP NJ (he was running DD/Stage at the trial he gave me the win at). I was blown away how solid it looked. I'm surprised he didn't top 8 that treasure cruise meta. Anywho, at Lille that deck was absolutely primed to ruin people's days. It's a perfect concoction to feast on what's hot. The concern I have for 4C aggro loam is the lack of beaters. There's limited room to do damage beyond KotR and p.fires combo.

For Rock, I can't help but think a similar configuration could be built. Most of the 4C loam deck is built off the Junk-Rock platform anyway. You would have to be comfortable trading DRS and 1cc spells for Zenith, Chalice, and Mox D. The take-away is how strong Loam is for the meta. Between P.Fires, cycle lands, and KotR I can't help but think there's a heavier Junk spin people can play with.

@lavafrogg: That list needs work but I think you're onto something with a reanimate spin. I don't like the lack of library manipulation, as running into a fatty with Confidant is problematic. Your deck also relies upon landing the fatty with no alternative gameplan. There has to be a solution so that *at worst* you can just try to beat face with goyf or knight.

[lavafrogg]

Right in the feels....damn that sucks.



She's my girl. All day and all knight (see what I did there?). Seriously though, Niklas showed me an almost identical deck at GP NJ (he was running DD/Stage at the trial he gave me the win at). I was blown away how solid it looked. I'm surprised he didn't top 8 that treasure cruise meta. Anywho, at Lille that deck was absolutely primed to ruin people's days. It's a perfect concoction to feast on what's hot. The concern I have for 4C aggro loam is the lack of beaters. There's limited room to do damage beyond KotR and p.fires combo.

For Rock, I can't help but think a similar configuration could be built. Most of the 4C loam deck is built off the Junk-Rock platform anyway. You would have to be comfortable trading DRS and 1cc spells for Zenith, Chalice, and Mox D. The take-away is how strong Loam is for the meta. Between P.Fires, cycle lands, and KotR I can't help but think there's a heavier Junk spin people can play with.

@lavafrogg: That list needs work but I think you're onto something with a reanimate spin. I don't like the lack of library manipulation, as running into a fatty with Confidant is problematic. Your deck also relies upon landing the fatty with no alternative gameplan. There has to be a solution so that *at worst* you can just try to beat face with goyf or knight.

I am really into the

4 confidant
4 GSZ
1 Coursair
4 Top

Engine right now.

I think it is strong enough to make waves in the format I am just trying to figure out how...

[Warden]

I am really into the

4 confidant
4 GSZ
1 Coursair
4 Top

Engine right now.

I think it is strong enough to make waves in the format I am just trying to figure out how...

I played 4 GSZ, 1 Courser, 2 Top, 8 fetch at my last legacy event in dark maverick and felt it was fantastic. I could see myself running confidants for a more junk-ish build. You get so much momentum between all those cards, it's insane. I agree that's kinda the engine I want to build/abuse. We'll see where Monday leaves the format.

[sdematt]

I played 4 GSZ, 1 Courser, 2 Top, 8 fetch at my last legacy event in dark maverick and felt it was fantastic. I could see myself running confidants for a more junk-ish build. You get so much momentum between all those cards, it's insane. I agree that's kinda the engine I want to build/abuse. We'll see where Monday leaves the format.

Hopefully g'bai to DTT, but we'll see.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I played 4 GSZ, 1 Courser, 2 Top, 8 fetch at my last legacy event in dark maverick and felt it was fantastic. I could see myself running confidants for a more junk-ish build. You get so much momentum between all those cards, it's insane. I agree that's kinda the engine I want to build/abuse. We'll see where Monday leaves the format.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 top
3 Green Suns Zenith

3 Lilliana of the Veil

1 batterskull
1 umezawas jitte

4 thought seize

3 Lingering Souls

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay

21 land

Current junk list. Super removal heavy with more discard in the board. Game one against combo I have teeg/seize/Liliana to hold down the fort.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hey, Matt, how would you go about beating mud? I'm playing a Junkblade version with 2 top, 2 courser, 2 library. I'm guessing a Teeg or GSZ version is probably better in this matchup, but I thought I would get the little details. It's a Kuldotha build with silver bullets and 3x Ugin.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[sdematt]

Hey, Matt, how would you go about beating mud? I'm playing a Junkblade version with 2 top, 2 courser, 2 library. I'm guessing a Teeg or GSZ version is probably better in this matchup, but I thought I would get the little details. It's a Kuldotha build with silver bullets and 3x Ugin.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Teeg is great int he matchup, and so are Grip and Decay. STP is generally your only way to beat cards like Wurmcoil or Platinum Emperion. My thing is always try to have removal for Metalworker, and sometimes Goyf if just too big for them. It's a tough matchup, for sure.

What are you boarding out, considering I'm saying board in all the things? Discard is fine on the play, but on the draw, it's bad. Chalice at 1 is a real card. I even do board out discard on the play, since I'm just trying to slam DRS and accelerate or hold up STP for metalworker or something.

The matchup is grindy. It was my only loss Thursday night, so I went 3-1, and I lost to it at Lille in Round 2 because he had nut draws.

-Matt

[maharis]

Junk Stoneblade spiked an IQ a couple weeks ago.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=88194

List seems a little all over the place to me, but it's cool to see the result. The 1 Teeg, 1 Dryad Arbor, 0 GSZ is especially weird. But congrats to Mark.

[sdematt]

Junk Stoneblade spiked an IQ a couple weeks ago.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=88194

List seems a little all over the place to me, but it's cool to see the result. The 1 Teeg, 1 Dryad Arbor, 0 GSZ is especially weird. But congrats to Mark.

Seems like the lists that are doing well are those with Scullers in them. Deadguy or Junk. Figures, right?

[JPTyson]

Here is the current mainboard list I am running.

Creatures: 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler

Instant and Sorcery: 17
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords To Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Artifact and Enchantment: 4
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

21 Lands:
4 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland


Give me your thoughts!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[lavafrogg]

Seems like the lists that are doing well are those with Scullers in them. Deadguy or Junk. Figures, right?

Sculler is pretty much the best show and tell hate you can play. Unless they can cunning wish kill you immediately, you will have a chance to take the other relevant combo piece. Emrakul is kill able, Lilliana/karakas, and sculler forces them to need more to kill you the long way.

It says a lot about the format where Goyf has been benched in almost all of the decks where've was a mainstay. Legacy Junk has pretty much always started with 4 Goyf 4 confident now the big guy has been sidelined for a squire and a mans dork. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

[sdematt]

Sculler is pretty much the best show and tell hate you can play. Unless they can cunning wish kill you immediately, you will have a chance to take the other relevant combo piece. Emrakul is kill able, Lilliana/karakas, and sculler forces them to need more to kill you the long way.

It says a lot about the format where Goyf has been benched in almost all of the decks where've was a mainstay. Legacy Junk has pretty much always started with 4 Goyf 4 confident now the big guy has been sidelined for a squire and a mans dork. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Unforts he is just super vanilla. He does nothing against Dig Through Time. At least Sculler makes them use a piece of removal to get rid of it, etc. I'm quite saddened, but hopeful that DTT will be banned, or the format will shift and Goyf will come back. He's good in BUG, but again, they have access to other stuff (like counters) and don't need to play garbage like Sculler to try to win. I'm a bit peeved.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Unforts he is just super vanilla. He does nothing against Dig Through Time. At least Sculler makes them use a piece of removal to get rid of it, etc. I'm quite saddened, but hopeful that DTT will be banned, or the format will shift and Goyf will come back. He's good in BUG, but again, they have access to other stuff (like counters) and don't need to play garbage like Sculler to try to win. I'm a bit peeved.

-Matt

I traded my goyfs a few months ago for an English Tabernacle. Which is the best deal ever seeing how I picked up goyfs for $2 each back before people realized how broken he is.

I really want a reason to buy new ones but it seems that all of the decks that I play have cut Goyf for more utility/disruption creatures.

[sdematt]

I traded my goyfs a few months ago for an English Tabernacle. Which is the best deal ever seeing how I picked up goyfs for $2 each back before people realized how broken he is.

I really want a reason to buy new ones but it seems that all of the decks that I play have cut Goyf for more utility/disruption creatures.

Easier to borrow Goyfs than a Tabernacle, that's for sure.

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

Pyromancer tokens and delving 5/5 also have slowed down my tarmogoyfs... He isn't even the biggest kid oun the block anymore, pretty crazy.

I'm working on a super consistent 4 Gsun 4 Shaman list with 2 libraries, 4 bobs and testing entomb as another consistency addition for therapy, souls and life from the loam. Goyf makes it in as part of the toolbox as beat stick against combo. I'll post a list if you like, it's thoroughly untested :P though I know it's good against Miracles, even a large entreat can't beat lingering souls and and a jitte! Then you just lock them out with sylvan safekeeper and teeg main deck ;)

[sdematt]

Pyromancer tokens and delving 5/5 also have slowed down my tarmogoyfs... He isn't even the biggest kid oun the block anymore, pretty crazy.

I'm working on a super consistent 4 Gsun 4 Shaman list with 2 libraries, 4 bobs and testing entomb as another consistency addition for therapy, souls and life from the loam. Goyf makes it in as part of the toolbox as beat stick against combo. I'll post a list if you like, it's thoroughly untested :P though I know it's good against Miracles, even a large entreat can't beat lingering souls and and a jitte! Then you just lock them out with sylvan safekeeper and teeg main deck ;)

Safekeeper is a tank and will always deserve my love, whether he makes the 76 or not :P

-Matt

[JPTyson]

Honestly I think goyf just slows the deck down, thinking of running 2 tasigur in my list though. Sculler is stronger than goyf in this type of deck. Sculler is smaller but it needs hand disruption and Sculler is perfect. Also, Teeg is better in the sideboard.

[Jain_Mor]

Not when you have 1 and running Gsun, in my opinion.
So many decks he is strong against. And he's our best answer to stop opponents from "digging" their way out of a game.

Being able to shut down miracles mid game and all combo decks except reanimator game 1 on turn 2 with acceleration is pretty worthy of his inclusion.

[JPTyson]

The deck has the hand disruption without him to beat combo decks and miracles game one easy. Reanimator isn't that big right now so you are putting in a one of for something that you have a low probability of getting matched against.

[sdematt]

The deck has the hand disruption without him to beat combo decks and miracles game one easy. Reanimator isn't that big right now so you are putting in a one of for something that you have a low probability of getting matched against.

The main problem is he doesn't DO anything. He's a 4/5 (which one can argue is only okay), but mainly, when he hits the board, he doesn't leave anything behind. Sculler is great disruption and needs to eat a removal spell if they want that card back, and SFM still gets the Equipment. Goyf doesn't do that, and that's why he's dead in a few matchups that have, unfortunately, become rather important (aka SnT/Omni, Miracles, he's fine against Grixis).

I think he's still a tank if you do curve well, and against many other decks. The problem is that he's lackluster (a bit) against a few of the key ones, at the moment.

[Jain_Mor]

@SDEMatt, we were talking about main deck teeg with Gsun :P

@JPTyson, he isn't good against reanimator, I said "except" :P he's gold against Miracles, Show n Tell, Storm, Dig-through-time, and other random combo decks like dredge etc

Bare in mind I was also talking about my list that currently doesn't have scullers (I love the card, just messing around with other ideas and he is in the sideboard now)

[Mr. Safety]

I am playing in a local legacy event later today. The last time I went undefeated, which was great, but I know that my deck needs some updates. Here is my list for today, with some open slots. I'd love some comments on how to finish it off.

4x deathrite
4x bob
4x goyf
3x stoneforge
3x tidehollow sculler

4x thoughtseize
4x plow
3x decay
1x vindicate
2x sylvan library
1x jitte
1x bskull
2x liliana
2x OPEN (thinking hymn, gsz + teeg, souls maindeck, inquisition of kozilek, or other suggestions if i own them/can get them today)

4x verdant catacombs
1x marsh flats
1x windswept heath
1x misty rainforest
2x scrubland
1x bayou
1x temple garden
2x swamp
1x forest
1x plains
1x treetop village
4x wasteland
1x volrath's stronghold
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

Sideboard

2x lingering souls
2x zealous persecution
2x choke
1x pernicious deed
1x pithing needle
2x surgical extraction
2x scavenging ooze
1x gaddock teeg
2x ethersworn canonist

I am leaning towards Hymn in the two maindeck slots (sleeved that way now.) just some questions for folks:

1) Is deed enough to warrent more than one in the board? I board it in rarely (elves, affinity, d&t)
2) Is loam good enough to squeeze a spot in the board?

The updates I know I need are another Bayou and a Savannah, possibly another fetchland. Volrath's Stronghold is good at grinding late games due to a lack of wasteland in my metagame (only a few folks play it.)

Thanks in advance! Wish me luck...

[sdematt]

I am playing in a local legacy event later today. The last time I went undefeated, which was great, but I know that my deck needs some updates. Here is my list for today, with some open slots. I'd love some comments on how to finish it off.

4x deathrite
4x bob
4x goyf
3x stoneforge
3x tidehollow sculler

4x thoughtseize
4x plow
3x decay
1x vindicate
2x sylvan library
1x jitte
1x bskull
2x liliana
2x OPEN (thinking hymn, gsz + teeg, souls maindeck, inquisition of kozilek, or other suggestions if i own them/can get them today)

4x verdant catacombs
1x marsh flats
1x windswept heath
1x misty rainforest
2x scrubland
1x bayou
1x temple garden
2x swamp
1x forest
1x plains
1x treetop village
4x wasteland
1x volrath's stronghold
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

Sideboard

2x lingering souls
2x zealous persecution
2x choke
1x pernicious deed
1x pithing needle
2x surgical extraction
2x scavenging ooze
1x gaddock teeg
2x ethersworn canonist

I am leaning towards Hymn in the two maindeck slots (sleeved that way now.) just some questions for folks:

1) Is deed enough to warrent more than one in the board? I board it in rarely (elves, affinity, d&t)
2) Is loam good enough to squeeze a spot in the board?

The updates I know I need are another Bayou and a Savannah, possibly another fetchland. Volrath's Stronghold is good at grinding late games due to a lack of wasteland in my metagame (only a few folks play it.)

Thanks in advance! Wish me luck...

For the two free slots, I'd add in a GSZ and another piece of card advantage/selection. Another Library/Top, or maybe even just a value Loam.

I think Loam is good enough if you're fighting fair decks all day. Deed has been super lackluster for me when I've played Nic Fit, so I'd just try EE or run more ZP's. I feel like you're a little Needle light and Teeg light, so I'd cut the Deed for a Needle, a Surgical for a Teeg, and have a GSZ and a Loam/Sylvan Library/Sylvan Safekeeper/Lingering Souls/whatever #value slot.

My two cents. I like the list. I think Hymn might make it too clunk-city, but the package of Thoughtseize, Sculler, and Hymn seems adorable, but I like having the long term value and not feeding Dig :P Double Ooze is saucy. I've been playing two in Junk Fit and really love it.

[lavafrogg]

Is there a way to utilize chalice of the void without going full blown aggro loam?

[Mr. Safety]

Is there a way to utilize chalice of the void without going full blown aggro loam?

In short, I don't think so. You sacrifice targeted discard, deathrite, and plows. Once those are gone you just pick up the cards that aggro loam uses and you're there.

I used hymns and went 1-2. Only 4 players showed so it was a little underwhelming. I beat an infect homebrew, went 0-2 against miracles, and went 1-2 against enchantress.

Miracles still gives me fits. I think the correct decision is to maindeck Teeg and a GSZ. I still like lingering souls in the board, but it could be correct for the maindeck. I also noticed when I curved hand disruption I felt unbeatable (thoughtseize into sculler into hymn/liliana.) I dropped the volrath's stronghold for an overgrown tomb, I was worried about 5 colorless lands. I think I can include it. I noticed treetop village was very good against miracles, maybe a second would be good (or maybe garruk relentless?) I learned that mentor out of their sideboard is an army in a can. Boarding in souls is correct, but also zeaolous persecution needs to come in. Faster clock and can cause blowouts.

I don't have a gsz currently so for now the hymn slots will become teeg and a 3rd liliana.

[Mr. Safety]

How do people feel about Knight of the Reliquary? Garruk Relentless? I know deathrite fights for graveyars lands but knight can still be very strong. Garruk was a pet card of mine a while back that did a lot of good work, and I feel that he would negate plows/terminus.

[sdematt]

How do people feel about Knight of the Reliquary? Garruk Relentless? I know deathrite fights for graveyars lands but knight can still be very strong. Garruk was a pet card of mine a while back that did a lot of good work, and I feel that he would negate plows/terminus.

It's great against Miracles, but only okay against Grixis and god awful against Omni.

Realistically, if you want to beat Miracles, you play a combination of Teegs, Chokes, Needles, and Grips. Grip is likely your highest impact sideboard card right now since it also does insane work against OmniTell. They can't beat that card unless they have natural Emrakul. Teeg does tons of work against Miracles and against the DTT decks.

I'll post my most recent iteration in a few.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Based on that, I would build my sideboard thusly:

1x teeg (one main)
2x choke
2x needle
2x lingering souls
2x zp
2x kgrip
2x surgical
2x scooze

I think that would be a little weaker to storm without a canonist. Maindeck souls would make room. I could easily cut a sculler and another card for souls main.

[sdematt]

Based on that, I would build my sideboard thusly:

1x teeg (one main)
2x choke
2x needle
2x lingering souls
2x zp
2x kgrip
2x surgical
2x scooze

I think that would be a little weaker to storm without a canonist. Maindeck souls would make room. I could easily cut a sculler and another card for souls main.

How many people play yard strats in your meta? 4 pieces is a lot.

-Matt

[BearsandSquires]

Matt, can you post your latest version if you get a chance

[sdematt]

On mobile, j'excuse.

4 confidant
4 drs
3 goyf
3 sfm
1 ooze
2 sculler

3 thoughtseize
2 therapy
4 decay
3 stp
3 souls
2 equips
3 sylvan learning center
2 gsz

22 lands with arbor

3 grip
2 ZP
2 Needle
2 choke
2 teeg
1 safekeeper
3 open (likely 2 canonist and another ZP since I feel like we are favoured against Miracles, and only okay against Omni. Id like to shore up the Grixis so at least we are okay against 2 of 3).

Safekeeper is a possible cut, but its very good. Cutting sfm down to 3 may be wrong. So cutting a goyf here to go to 2 may be okay since im at 2 zenith. Grixis just cant handle goyf. They have to play cut and other garbage removal, and ZP is game over for them

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Some time ago I requested help, was responded to, but I had some family matters to attend to. Thanks for the reply, Matt, sorry for not replying. Here is the 76, I only own one Choke, but I'm getting more.

4 DRS
1 Scooze
2 Sculler
3 Confidant
4 SFM
4 Goyf

3 L. Souls
1 BSkull
1 Jitte
2 GSZ
2 Library
3 StP
4 AD
2 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize

1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Arbor
1 Village (I want to play Stirring Wildwood here, but idk if there is a reason not to)
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Heath
2 Flats
4 Catacombs
3 Wasteland

SB:
2 Revoker
2 Canonist
2 Teeg
2 ZP
1 Choke
1 Vindicate
2 Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Deed

Meta is 2-3 Merrow w/ Chalice, a SnT player (omni/demon rum), 2x mud, burn, delver (rug mainly), Esper Mentor, bug pod, junkblade w/out goyf, Grixis Twin (straight modern port, just adds Therapy), manaless Dredge, a collected company painter homebrew, Reanimator, and some randomness.

A quick note, this is my gf's deck, and she is pretty new to the game. I understand that Therapy is strong, especially post sb, but her knowledge of the format is lacking. Please avoid suggesting the card.

I feel like maybe I should be playing one or two more grave hate cards, Relics and/or Surgical Extraction comes to mind.

I have thought about changing a Deed to an Enlightened Tutor si I essentially have 2 Deed and 2 Choke. Would this be a good idea? It does have other synergies within the list, so there are probably worse ideas. Anyway, thoughts, criticisms, suggestions?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Cire]

A mini-necro to talk about whether Wasteland Strangler adds anything to this deck:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/79/51/200/283/635779075617125964.png

Play's well with Sculler, DRS and STP (and enemy delve cards)

Brainstorm list

4 DRS
4 BOB
4 Goyf
3 SFM
3 Tidehollow sculler
2 Wasteland Strangler
1 Teeg
1 Ooze

4 Thoughtseize
4 STP
3 decay
3 Green Suns Zenith
2 liliana
2 sylvan library
1 Jitte
1 bskull

18 Lands

[iamajellydonut]

A mini-necro to talk about whether Wasteland Strangler adds anything to this deck:

I, as said multiple times in the spoiler thread, am a huge fan of this card. Off the top of my head, the biggest impact I could see it making would be in something of a Death and Taxes list. Cut Goyf. Go down to three Lilianas. Load up on this, Thalias, and Tidehollow Skullers and just make for slow-roll beats and incremental card advantage.

[Richard Cheese]

I, as said multiple times in the spoiler thread, am a huge fan of this card. Off the top of my head, the biggest impact I could see it making would be in something of a Death and Taxes list. Cut Goyf. Go down to three Lilianas. Load up on this, Thalias, and Tidehollow Skullers and just make for slow-roll beats and incremental card advantage.

You could start with something like my old Black+Taxes list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27484-3rd-out-of-50-with-Black-Taxes) and just find room for DRS.

[Megadeus]

You could start with something like my old Black+Taxes list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27484-3rd-out-of-50-with-Black-Taxes) and just find room for DRS.

I agree with this. Maxing out on early Exile Via DRS, Sculler, and STP seems probably correct. New guy is pretty powerful

@The decklist presented above, 18 lands probably ain't gonna cut it my friend.

[iamajellydonut]

You could start with something like my old Black+Taxes list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27484-3rd-out-of-50-with-Black-Taxes) and just find room for DRS.

I would play the shit out of a modernized version of that.

[Richard Cheese]

I would play the shit out of a modernized version of that.

The question is what to cut. Do you just drop Mom since everyone's trying to come up with a plan to kill a horde of white 1/1s now? Maybe Batterskull and go to 2 SFMs? Cut the Crusaders since they're the only 3-drop and lose the best beater?

I haven't played that deck in a while but I'm thinking about picking it up again.

[iamajellydonut]

The question is what to cut. Do you just drop Mom since everyone's trying to come up with a plan to kill a horde of white 1/1s now? Maybe Batterskull and go to 2 SFMs? Cut the Crusaders since they're the only 3-drop and lose the best beater?

I haven't played that deck in a while but I'm thinking about picking it up again.

With a backbone of x/2s and an asston of card advantage, I don't think cards like Golgari Charm could be seen as too much of a threat, but I'd still definitely be scared shitless of Punishing Fires and stuff like Toxic Deluge. Crusaders could definitely go and I've never been happy with majority Stoneforge Mystics+Batterskull unless I have Brainstorm. Mom I'm up in the air about. Mainly I just don't have experience with her.


Edit: It's a weird brew, but it's also 10pm and I'm just coming up with shit. Initial concept had 1*Aether Vial, 2*Lingering Souls, Umezawa's Jitte, 3*Thalia, 4*Tidehollow Sculler, 2*Green Sun's Zenith, and a Dryad Arbor (in order of perceived importance), but it turns out that I was waaaay over sixty so whatever.

25*Lands
1*Forest
1*Plains
1*Swamp
3*Bayou
1*Cabal Pit
2*Horizon Canopy
1*Karakas
1*Marsh Flats
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
1*Tranquil Thicket
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
2*Windswept Heath

19*Creatures
1*Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4*Dark Confidant
3*Wasteland Strangler
1*Scavenging Ooze
4*Deathrite Shaman
1*Gaddock Teeg
1*Knight of the Reliquary
2*Qasali Pridemage
3*Tidehollow Sculler

16*Other Spells
1*Lingering Souls
4*Swords to Plowshares
2*Liliana of the Veil
1*Green Sun's Zenith
1*Life from the Loam
2*Sylvan Library
2*Abrupt Decay
2*Mox Diamond

[jrsthethird]

You could start with something like my old Black+Taxes list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27484-3rd-out-of-50-with-Black-Taxes) and just find room for DRS.

Find room for Flickerwisp. Plays too well with Strangler to not be in with it.


Mom I'm up in the air about. Mainly I just don't have experience with her.

I have experience with your Mom. She's great.

[maharis]

Gotta play devils advocate here-- I don't really see what problem matchups Strangler makes better. What makes it exciting? It rarely affects Tarmogoyf and is shrugged off by Batterskull and TNN. It is completely dead vs. combo other than being a slight improvement on Scathe Zombies. Plus the condition is no guarantee at the times the card is good (I guess the dream is on the play we drop DRS, they fetch into a Delver/DRS of their own, and we windmill this turn 2 and don't get blowed out by Daze.)

Other than that it's mana-negative removal for any relevant creature it could hit with a body that gets dominated by most decent decks.

Aren't there better 3-mana sorcery speed cards that already don't make the cut? Like you could just play KOTR if you aren't already and fetch Cabal Pit for a similar effect. Or e-wit back a used removal spell. Or play Raven's Crime, Loam, Mentor.

[iamajellydonut]

Gotta play devils advocate here-- I don't really see what problem matchups Strangler makes better. What makes it exciting? It rarely affects Tarmogoyf and is shrugged off by Batterskull and TNN. It is completely dead vs. combo other than being a slight improvement on Scathe Zombies. Plus the condition is no guarantee at the times the card is good (I guess the dream is on the play we drop DRS, they fetch into a Delver/DRS of their own, and we windmill this turn 2 and don't get blowed out by Daze.)

Other than that it's mana-negative removal for any relevant creature it could hit with a body that gets dominated by most decent decks.

I'm definitely not trying to pretend like it's going to revolutionize Legacy or even Rock itself, but I've personally never liked Tarmogoyf (dumb beater) and have always wanted something to push Tidehollow Sculler over the top, so gaining a replacement for Tarmogoyf and an enabler for Tidehollow Sculler all in one go is just like a dream come true for me. Sure, the card itself isn't outrageous against combo, but neither is Abrupt Decay or half the other crap in the deck. The card just makes fair matches (which typically comprise the largest portion of any meta) even even better, and that's not a terrible thing.

[sdematt]

Any thoughts on the new Vampire Nighthawk person? It obviously seems better in Ale, but I'm running 3 Souls, so....It also is a card against Delver.

-Matt

[Warden]

Gotta play devils advocate here-- I don't really see what problem matchups Strangler makes better. What makes it exciting? It rarely affects Tarmogoyf and is shrugged off by Batterskull and TNN. It is completely dead vs. combo other than being a slight improvement on Scathe Zombies. Plus the condition is no guarantee at the times the card is good (I guess the dream is on the play we drop DRS, they fetch into a Delver/DRS of their own, and we windmill this turn 2 and don't get blowed out by Daze.)

Other than that it's mana-negative removal for any relevant creature it could hit with a body that gets dominated by most decent decks.

Aren't there better 3-mana sorcery speed cards that already don't make the cut? Like you could just play KOTR if you aren't already and fetch Cabal Pit for a similar effect. Or e-wit back a used removal spell. Or play Raven's Crime, Loam, Mentor.

Thank you. Somebody feels the same way I do. I see this new card as Gatekeeper of Malikar pt. 2...it's okay in the right "I live the dream" situations, but just 'meh' overall. I don't want tidehollow in rock unless I'm doing some next level deadguy. I need to see it in action, but right now it's just another new card. And yes, KotR is the better 3 drop.

[bakofried]

Thank you. Somebody feels the same way I do. I see this new card as Gatekeeper of Malikar pt. 2...it's okay in the right "I live the dream" situations, but just 'meh' overall. I don't want tidehollow in rock unless I'm doing some next level deadguy. I need to see it in action, but right now it's just another new card. And yes, KotR is the better 3 drop.

Having played the shit out of Gatekeeper back when it was more common...that's not an insult to me. I'm not pretending it's revolutionary, but at the least it's a 3/2 that nixes most creatures in Legacy right now. Does it kick out Lili, Souls, or Knight? Probably not, but it probably goes into a more creature driven strategy - where stuff like Thalia and Sculler become much better.

[maharis]

Thank you. Somebody feels the same way I do. I see this new card as Gatekeeper of Malikar pt. 2...it's okay in the right "I live the dream" situations, but just 'meh' overall. I don't want tidehollow in rock unless I'm doing some next level deadguy. I need to see it in action, but right now it's just another new card. And yes, KotR is the better 3 drop.

Well I think jellydonut is just trying to have a little fun with what is an awful set overall for Legacy. I think it's too bad that cards like this aren't good. But attrition via synergy just isn't a winning strategy at the moment with the notable exception, as always, of lands.

That being said ... It's also really interesting with Hide/Seek. You Seek their Angler, gain 7, put it in their GY and kill their Delver.

[sdematt]

So, Painful Truths. Draw 3 for 3 and 3 life at sorcery speed. Slow as fuck, let's all agree, but card draw is never bad, especially in non-blue colours.

4 DRS
4 Dark Confidant
4 SFM
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
16

3 STP
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
1 SoLaS
1 SoFI
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls

3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

//Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

I just don't have room for Scullers. I guess I could cut the SoLaS and a Goyf for 2, but Goyf is still fat and against Grixis, that's one of the few cards that is hard to beat. Thoughts?

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

Dig is gone! So I can play this instead of nic fit again!

Yes, like your list Matt, I too want to see if painful truth is the truth.

Not so keen on the 1 gsun and dryad arbor. But I do love 4 SFM 4 bob 2 library and 2 truths, that's some power right there. Time to start Brewing again.


Edit: my starting list is
-1 gsun -1dryad -1 scooze -1 souls
+1 STP +1 treetop +1 goyf
And switch SoLaS with BSK, we all know you feel there though, a different discussion for another time

[lavafrogg]

How is painful truth better/worse than nights whisper?

Nights whisper is easier to cast and always draws 2 instead of awkward pay 3 draw 1 or pay 3 draw 2 plays that are going to happen.

[iamajellydonut]

Nights whisper is easier to cast and always draws 2 instead of awkward pay 3 draw 1 or pay 3 draw 2 plays that are going to happen.

I mean, it's not right to pretend like Painful Truth wouldn't always be a 3:3. It's easy as hell to get WGB. However, "do I want to pay 3" is a real consideration. Even though I gave the card a lot of shit early on, it might work now that Dig Through Time isn't a thing. I'll remain optimistic.

[sdematt]

I Recall frequently with Sylvan, so I'm used to paying 8 for 3. I'll gladly pay 3 for 3 and tap out.

Back in black, boys.

-Matt

[maharis]

Painful Truths really has potential, the more I think about it.

Couple that with essentially getting Hymn and Liliana back and man.... So much to try!

[tescrin]

Had a 3-0 last night vs Punishing Jund (2-1), Mud (2-0), and Miracles (2-1) with the below after about a 6month hiatus

-15-
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM

-11-
3 Bitterblossom
3 Lily
2 Sylvan Library
1 SOFAI
1 SOLAS
1 Jitte

-14-
3 Plows
4 Decay
4 Thoughseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Life form the Loam

-21-
3 Waste
3 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savannah
9 Fetch (4/3/2)
3 Basics (1/1/1)

SB
2 Chains of Meph
2 Choke
2 Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Rest in Peace
4 Thalia
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Plague


Jund
G1 - Grindy game that ends with double Blossom, DRS, and Bob with a bit of a goyf stall to get there. I get hymned twice IIRC.
G2 - Board out some discard and a blossom (anticipating Charm) for Thalias (cascade, Pfire, lily) and Pulse. I stick a sword and chain a few critters but he double goyfs and gets a Lily online while I land flood. More Hymn on me.
G3 - Board the Thalias back out for some discard and the blossom (i'm going first) I do the old Plow/Waste on his DRS with mine active and establish a bob. I get 5 in before he starts getting Goyfs; he's stuck on Bayou Wasteland and can't use them however. It quickly goes downhill for him while I mound DRS Bob and Goyf. Eventually I kill one of his and can swing in a way that he has to block goyf and take some from Bob; Double DRS end it.

Mud
G1 - I forget what he's on and have Fetch, DRS, Thoughtseize, Loam, Waste, and other stuff. I gamble that I won't get T1 blind-wasted and TSoff of a bayou so I can cast Loam later. He puts out a Glimmerpost. I drop DRS and waste it. He puts down Glimmer#2. I loam fetch + waste and he sees how the rest of the game will go.
G2 - He gets an early metalworker and my hand is a little slow; but I decay it. He 3Spheres with lightning greaves so I play a goyf (4/5) and get in. He drops a loadstone and I drop Goyf#2 and swing for 4. I finally get Land #4 and Lily his stone away and swing for 10. I had natural loam and drew into wastes again; but 3Sphere kept me off of it until Lethal was already there. I also didn't want to rub in my luck-sack lol.

Miracles
G1 - I cabal a Terminus away. I start with Goyf as a 2/3 (no fetches on either side lol) and start using Lily to eat our hands and grow him. Goyf #2 is a gamble but I have to be proactive; and I get him to 4 before he can plow-snap-plow the goyfs. I drop a bob, regrettably -2 the Snap so I can get in and he VClics; which I have to plow; so he's at 5. Grumble. This happens again with another Vclick who I Decay before it can block and I finally get there.

G2 - Long grind. I Decay the first counterbalance and he has two more. I get some 3-drops through but I can't seem to find any of my hate for too long. I eventually get both Chokes, a Sword, and a Lily in; but it all succumbs slowly until I hit the inevitable mass of nothing under a Jace.

G3 - This game was stupid. I play blossom. He plays Moon. We both wait around until blossom kills him (even with a terminus for 7 faeries.) Yep.


I've always wanted to try blossom next to goyf; I think it'll be rare that it works right to pump my own but I do like the grindy pressure and the cheaper cost compared to Souls. No Charm blowouts, no DRS problems or getting Dazed. Just an easy to cast card that gives goyf a nice +2 and synergizes well with equips (even if I never found them together.)

The deck is heavy on 2-drops and I understand the benefits of Souls; but I think I'll keep trying blossom for a bit as both times it outperformed Souls.

I could see getting a 3rd Library and like it a lot better now that I've had a hiatus. Jelly's comments about paying life seem quite true; CA is CA. Loam was included because dredge works well with Sylvan (get rid of the garbage) and the chance for free wins in grindy Jund/Shardless/etc matches.

SB could obviously use some work but what do you want from me?
Glad to get back in the saddle with such a firm start and with my pet deck :D


_____
EDIT:

Had another small 3-rounder last night (these tournaments are restricted by time and are about 10-15 players)
Went 2-1 against DGA (2-0), D&T(2-1), and Storm (1-2)

DGA
G1 - An interesting hand of DRS DRS Goyf Decay Fetch Wasteland SoLaS. I fetch Bayou for DRS->Goyf and DRS gets plowed, DRS #2 comes down and I aggressively waste him as he looked shaky deciding what land to pull from his deck (and I thought he was on Mav/Junk.) I forget a bit about this middle part, I think he hymns Decay/something and I get Goyf #2 and eventually find Lands so I can drop the sword into play. The sword is on goyf but he has batterskull with Jitte. I keep swinging through for 6, he gains 2 off Jitte, swings for 6 back. This all while he's teetering on 6-8 life. Eventually I find enough mana to swap the equip between the goyfs so he can't gain life the next time, and that's that.

G2 - I keep a hand of 2-drops. He gets a Top. I pass. He durdles, I drop Sylvan Library. He cabals for Decay and gets 2, sees 2 goyfs, drops SFM. I think he should've sac'd for the goyfs, but he doesn't. I drop a goyf, cabal him for the sword and see Humility and Plow. I sac Goyf for the humility and that's why he kept his SFM; because he could swing as a 3/3 through my 1/1 and just win I guess. Goyf #2 gets plowed for 6; giving me a ton of life to pour into Library; which I do. With a hand of 3 cards, I drop Bob Equip I think. Then Thalia Goyf the following turn or so.


Storm
G1 - I have TS basically. I get killed by a ton of gobbos
G2 - He mulls to 4 or 5 and I have Cage/Thalia/Thalia/Goyf
G3 - I keep a mediocre hand and he T1's for 8 gobbos, I don't have one of the sweepers and I die lol.

D&T
G1 - DRS->plowed. I Blossom I think, he gets Mom. Eventually we have a board state of Faeries swinging in and he has Revoker on my equip. I get Jitte in and he has Mom, Revoker, Jitte, and Flickerwisp that just arrived. I have Decay and decay on the wisp so he has to activate mom. I swing with SFM + Jitte and the faeries and Jitte finishes the job.
G2 - I get taxed a bunch and a batterskull happens.
G3 - I keep a weird Deluge, Pulse, SoFaI, Cabal, 3 fetches. I pass, he drops Mom. I pull Decay and don't feel lucky enough to want to wait for him to overextend into Deluge; so I decay. He drops RiP. I Cabal blind for Wisp and hit; revealing his weird plan/hand. He had 2x Wilt-Leaf. I SFM for Jitte. He casts one. I equip and am hoping he'll drop the second so I can pulse for the win. He drops a Crusader. Crap. I pull a Lily and he sac's WLL. He swings with Crusader and I block for nothing (first strike.) He puts down an X-1 and I deluge those off of the board and he finally puts in WLL#2 that I pulse.
Long bit of nothing happens while I accrue Library and eventually Blossom, and tick up Lily.


Been having a very good time with Blossom and Library. Blossom is quite reliable for CA and constant pressure while not getting blown out. It does potentially eat Decay/Charm, but Souls eats the latter and frankly with Bob, Goyf, SFM/Equips, Library; they can use a Decay if they want. Unsure about that 1-of loam. It'd probably be better as another Therapy.

They're both cards that for the cheap 1-time investment give you huge returns; while Souls/SDT are good and can impact "now"; they also require far more mana and I'm finding that simply being able to plop something and let it do it's thing is much more manageable. Neither are turned off by hate cards either; at least, not popular ones.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Had a 3-0 last night vs Punishing Jund (2-1), Mud (2-0), and Miracles (2-1) with the below after about a 6month hiatus

-15-
-11-
-14-
-21-


@tescrin: 61 main deck?

[tescrin]

@tescrin: 61 main deck?
:cool: Always rockin' that 61 baby (except if running brainstorm/ponder)

EDIT:

Painful Truths really has potential, the more I think about it.

I feel obligated to point out that if you have Thalia tax the card, you can pay the tax with DRS or Hierarch and draw 4.

[sdematt]

:cool: Always rockin' that 61 baby (except if running brainstorm/ponder)

EDIT:


I feel obligated to point out that if you have Thalia tax the card, you can pay the tax with DRS or Hierarch and draw 4.

Always Rock 61 (if you need to) because the downside is minimal on one card.

Painful Truths has been very solid to me in Junk Fit (aka Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers), so I suspect the same here.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

How many slots are you guys using for painful truths in testing? I can see the obvious implications in junk fit because its a dedicated card advantage deck. I find myself playing junk in a more tempo-like fashion (disrupt, disrupt, land threat, beat down.) In short, I also play 61 cards but only so I can squeeze in the 3rd copy of lingering souls. I still play 4 bob/2 library as my draw/selection package.

[sdematt]

How many slots are you guys using for painful truths in testing? I can see the obvious implications in junk fit because its a dedicated card advantage deck. I find myself playing junk in a more tempo-like fashion (disrupt, disrupt, land threat, beat down.) In short, I also play 61 cards but only so I can squeeze in the 3rd copy of lingering souls. I still play 4 bob/2 library as my draw/selection package.


4/2/2 Bob/Sylvan/Truths

[tescrin]

I'm not sold on truths in Junk yet; mostly on the back of it being a 3-drop. Loam, for example, gains huge card advantage for no life while straight winning against a large number of decks (mostly the same that Truths is good against.) That said, I think Library's life drain is quite a bit different; it's more of a cherry on top compared to the continuous card quality; and paying it feels good since it's normally in a well-controlled situation.

(My examples above: We're both Hellbent and he swords me 6/7 Goyf. Lel. Hellbent Lily Lock with Jitte and I need any creature? Go deep with life so I can get there before he finds an answer.)

I'm curious if you'd run Lily/Souls next to it as well. It's doable; I used to run Lily/KotR as awkward as the mana was (and thus delver ate me a reasonable bit) but you're pushing the 3-drop limits pretty hard at that point. And this vs. Lily? She's reasonable against all of our bad/mediocre MUs, impacts the board immediately, etc..

_____
On a very different note; I know TNN will be making a bit of a comeback, but do we need SoFaI? I haven't landed it since I've been back and I normally go Jitte (everything) or SoLaS (D&T/DGA/Batterskull.) I could see SoFaI against YP as well; but his numbers will be going down.

I guess I should leave it in a little bit, but I feels awkward that I've had it in my hand multiple times as Lily fodder..

_____
I should probably wait until I see SneakShow/Reanimator start running again; but I kinda want to go:
-4 Goyf
-1 Waste
+3 KotR
+1 Loam
+1 Karakas

Moving Souls to Blossom saved me mana, moving SDT to Sylvan saved me mana, swapping Waste for Loam and just tutoring it would solidify my white a bit? Maybe I'll get a practice night with some delver fanboyz so I can get crushed getting greedy.

[sdematt]

SOFI is still quite a clock. I wouldn't cut it. Drawing cards is also never bad, and being good against TNN and a Jace bounce is never a bad thing.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Everyone want to post your most recent list?

[tescrin]

Everyone want to post your most recent list?

I'll go ahead and start even though it's just north on the page; I'm hoping my participation (and maybe yours?) will encourage some postings:
-15-
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM

-11-
3 Bitterblossom
3 Lily
2 Sylvan Library
1 SOFAI
1 SOLAS
1 Jitte

-14-
3 Plows
4 Decay
4 Thoughseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Life form the Loam

-21-
3 Waste
3 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB
2 Chains of Meph <= will probably change these to more swarm hate (GC, ZP) but I've never gotten to really use it..
2 Choke
4 Thalia <= will probably swap this to a diverse set of permanents that cause different kinds of hate; but I do like her against dredge too..
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Rest in Peace
2 Cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse


I'm considering an ETutor board as well;

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Hordes of Miracles, DnT and combo decks at my local:

//Lands 23
3 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

//Spells 24
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
//(Bitterblossom feels too slow)
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Mox Diamond
//(23 lands might be greedy?)
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

//Creatures 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
//(unsure about Ooze)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
//(unsure about Thrun but hexproof is nice)

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

E Tutor will be in the next iteration.

[Mr. Safety]

I currently have loam pox depths sleeved and loving it. However, I am always tinkering with my rock list on my phone (new app called mrg unofficial, so far its decent.) With dig banned and a strong casual crowd at my local I am shifting around counts of sfm and sculler, along with Garruk Relentless in the board again. Oddly, Wasteland is rare in my meta, I'm one of the few that likes to punish greedy mana. So that means I want to play loam/depths for a while until it shifts.

Current list:
4x Dr. Shaman
4x bob
4x goofy
2x sfm
3x robot zombie mindfucker

4x thoughtseize
4x stp
3x uncounterable rotstain
1x vindicate
2x sylvan card catalog
3x spooky dead people
1x ninja toothpick
1x batterskull
3x cleavage w/legs

22x lands
4x waste
7x fetch
5x dual, 2 of them budget
1x monkey treehouse
4x basics
1x urborg

Sideboard
2x scooze
2x choke
2x zealous persecution
2x pithing needle
1x gimli mugshot
1x zombie garruk
2x spine removal
1x act of sabotage
2x bionic pretentious lady

And I think that's enough Jameson for one night...

[jrsthethird]

Current list:
4x Dr. Shaman
4x bob
4x goofy
2x sfm
3x robot zombie mindfucker

4x thoughtseize
4x stp
3x uncounterable rotstain
1x vindicate
2x sylvan card catalog
3x spooky dead people
1x ninja toothpick
1x batterskull
3x cleavage w/legs

22x lands
4x waste
7x fetch
5x dual, 2 of them budget
1x monkey treehouse
4x basics
1x urborg

Sideboard
2x scooze
2x choke
2x zealous persecution
2x pithing needle
1x gimli mugshot
1x zombie garruk
2x spine removal
1x act of sabotage
2x bionic pretentious lady

Please register all your decklists like this.

[tescrin]

Went 3-0, 6-0 in games tonight (for a total record of 8-1 in matches and 16-5 in games since I've been back!)

MU1 - Shardless
G1 - Extremely grindy game where he probably got 3 visions, 4 goyfs, a Jace, a Lily, 2 Shardless, 3 Deathrites, etc.. I kept spawning Faeries and Drawing from Bob, gaining random activations on the equips and just eeking my way through the mess of his permanents and kill spells. I think I finally get there 35 minutes or so into the match. He killed Blossom #1; don't remember if I saw #2 or if I just finally got enough regular guys. Somewhere in here I land Loam for 3x Wasteland and waste him to the stoneage (3 lands) and off of blue for a short time. Salt was had.
G2 - Early bitterblossom is ignored while he kills Goyfs, and tries to Lily despite the tokens. Eventually Jitte-equip + double decay clear his 3 DRS Shardless board and I stabilize with a small board of Bitterblossom, Bob, and Lili, eating my life slowly next to library. He still finds several goyfs while I'm fending him off going between 9 and 5 or so life for awhile. He gets a Jitte to become a minor problem but I kill his goyf with mine + faeries and protect my board. I end up around 2 life when I finally find SoLaS which seals the handshake as I'll connect. I receive a bag of salt as my prize; but little does he know; I love salt. I side out Cabals for Deluge, Pulse, and 2 thoughtseize for 2 Choke.

MU2 - Goblins!
G1 - Another mega grind where he draws a good 7 cards extra but gets stuffed by Goyf, SoFaI, Jitte(destroyed), Lili, and weight of CA. I balance on a knife edge of Jitte health-gain, Bob triggers, and goblin attacks.
G2 - A little Grindy; but I land DRS, Blossom, Thalia, Goyf, and start the slow downward slide of his inability to attack effectively. Eventually I land any sword and he scoops IIRC. Noteworthy, he wastes me to 1-land and I'm casting everything from DRS + Scrub mana with only a few fetches/wastes used the whole game. I side out Loam, Cabals, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Lili? for 4 Thalia, 1 Engineered Plague.

MU3 - Dredge
G1 - I get lucky. His hand is great but his dredges whiff long enough for Deathrite to cut him off; eventually double-DRS. I've never had that happen before. I have had KotR->Bog G1 before; but that's a different deck. It was still a bit intense because I was quite sure it would never work; but he only found 4 or so dredgers.
G2 - I mull twice keeping Thalia, 2 lands, wasteland, and Pulse; hoping to mana screw him and get a couple turns. I waste him T1 as he drops triple golgari into the yard; so I'm banking on him missing the ability to drop a land and not drawing a bunch. I'm in luck and find a RiP T3; sealing the deal for the time being. He's locked out when Thalia followed by a protective second Wasteland comes in.

w00t! Blossom has continued to outperform my expectations over and over. It's a brutal good card and the pump to Goyf hasn't worked against me yet. Those Fae carry equips like a boss and really gum up the works at such a low cost.


EDIT: I notice I feel *really* smart when I pay life into library. It feels like a bad deal when I'm hovering at such a low life total (<10) but often it seals the deal. That extra card or so to make the play happen NOW is amazing. I'm sorry I ever doubted you.

I'm double sorry that my Gin and Tonic is finished and I'm all tipsy; because I really want a third one.

[sdematt]

Fuckin' told you so, scrub. Library be good.

Went X-0 with Junk RhinoFit tonight at the local, on my birthday. All is right in the world.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I don't have the time to play anywhere near as much as I use to before the baby(june)/job(2010?)/other-life-changes(always). If the kids get into magic, I may play more but a tournament every now and then is the most I'm willing to put in now. My last played list was in august and I feel like it's still fine...


2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Funeral Charm
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
1 Council's Judgment
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

1 Sylvan Library
2 Bitterblossom

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

2 Orim's Chant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Choke
1 Lingering Souls
1 Council's Judgment

[maharis]

I put together my old list last night to play around with a bit and post. Made a few changes now that DTT is out.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
2 Bitterblossom
2 Sylvan Library
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Cabal Therapy

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Light & Shadow
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

I see this as a longer-game deck, using life total as a resource early before closing out with an equipped creature that probably gains you some amount of life (L&S and Jitte, as well as Rhino/Courser). I could see in the sideboard having to board in a lot of cards to beat combo decks, but our card quality tends to be better in fair matchups. Getting Courser and any sort of library manipulation down takes over games real fast.

[T-101]

What are act of sabotage and pretentious lady?

[sdematt]

Likely Deed and Canonist.

[Mr. Safety]

Likely Deed and Canonist.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Likely Deed....

Engineered Explosives?

[T-101]

Explosives are more of a thing. Deed is an act.

I'm sold on the cards being Deed and Canonist.

[Mr. Safety]

I am 100% positive that engineered explosives would have been Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie.

[sdematt]

Some people are suggesting going back to Abzan charm over Truths in the Nic Fit thread. If you were running Truths, what are your thoughts?

-Matt

[tescrin]

I've never ran either, but I like Charm better. Versatility and instant speed card draw seem good. The Counters may even accidentally come in handy on a game-ending swing or a swing with a bunch of souls or something. The ability to do it for "no mana" on EOT allows you to use the cards without their Discard coming into play, or without wasting your turn (essentially) to a counterspell.

I always feel weird saying that because you "wasted" your previous turn.. but meh.

Instant speed is also good for dumb things like Rishadan Port; and it kills Zombie fish and other weird cost creatures. I don't think i'd run it as more than a 1-of or so though anyway; as 3-power creatures aren't *so* common or so advantageous to kill for 3 colored mana that it would feel good.



EDIT: Report for my thursday: 0-2

M1 Omni-Sneakshow
G1 - T1 DRS doesn't beat T1 Emrakul it seems
G2 - I get Chains and Canonist off of an ETutor. Take sneak with Therapy flashback to find Emrakul, Omni, Cunning Wish, and plenty of lands (he could've cast Sneak next turn with petals; so I need to take it.) I could've grabbed an EBridge but then he could've Wish'd his way out of that in a different line. Long story short, Canonist and Chains are minor problems as he Wishes for Breach, and Emmys me to death.

M2 Manaless Dredge
G1 - I have Double DRS so I play it out; but he goes off slowly but surely
G2 - I have DRS, Cage, and RiP. Lel.
G3 - I mull to 4 (an 87% chance to find Hate + mana) and fail to find the right hate. I stick with 2 lands, Canonist, Ensnaring Bridge; hoping it's enough to last until I find hate. I don't and eventually die to Flayer recursion stuff; though I may have had an out. I misplay the final turn because I assume he triggers off of Zombies entering the battlefield. He doesn't and I kill my canonist in order to get his 3 bridges and low my death. Lame. (But were he better, he had it anyway; as Flayer can point it at creatures too.)

M3 - Bye. MMMMM YEHH

All this with a nice dose of 20 minutes of *extra* traffic made for a good night for drinking :)

[ironclad8690]

Just 3-0'd an 8-man on magic online with this list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Lingering Souls

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod


I want to fit a SoFaI in the 75, the Null Rod actually seems pretty bad, Zealous Persecution might be better than E Plague (especially with the souls). BTW sorry if this is wrong place, I am going to x-post to Deadguy ale.

Round 1: BUG Delver 2-1

Round 2: Infect 2-0

Round 3: Sneak and Show 2-1

[tescrin]

Sideboard:
1 Council's Judgment
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
2 Duress

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
[/cards]


This separated part should probably be:
1 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor

This moves you to:
3 Virtual Choke
4 Virtual Storm Hate
3 Virtual Plagues/needles/rods


The main thing I like about this way of doing it is that you can grab the appropriate card if storm already went off (Plague for goblins) or if they haven't (Canonist.) You can also be more sure to have choke at the ready against whatever deck.

I think for your purposes Chains of Meph would be better than Rod; depending what you're boarding against (I'm assuming Storm/Miracles), though I just made it Chalice as it can do the same thing when most of your 1-drops are garbage against miracles anyway. Better than them casting Tops/Storms/Ponders/Plows.


It can also keep your hate safe from Thoughtseize (it becomes the top card of your deck) and much harder to guess with Cabal Therapy (since it can be Canonist, Sweeper, Tutor, or Chalice.)

I think the Verdict is out of place; I think Hymn is just better (even against Burn IME) and Verdict is more of a "5th hymn"

[ironclad8690]

This separated part should probably be:
1 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor

This moves you to:
3 Virtual Choke
4 Virtual Storm Hate
3 Virtual Plagues/needles/rods


The main thing I like about this way of doing it is that you can grab the appropriate card if storm already went off (Plague for goblins) or if they haven't (Canonist.) You can also be more sure to have choke at the ready against whatever deck.

I think for your purposes Chains of Meph would be better than Rod; depending what you're boarding against (I'm assuming Storm/Miracles), though I just made it Chalice as it can do the same thing when most of your 1-drops are garbage against miracles anyway. Better than them casting Tops/Storms/Ponders/Plows.


It can also keep your hate safe from Thoughtseize (it becomes the top card of your deck) and much harder to guess with Cabal Therapy (since it can be Canonist, Sweeper, Tutor, or Chalice.)

I think the Verdict is out of place; I think Hymn is just better (even against Burn IME) and Verdict is more of a "5th hymn"

Cool, thanks for the tips! I think I will try this out.

[Richard Cheese]

Cool, thanks for the tips! I think I will try this out.

I would stick with 1 E. Tutor and 2x of the actual business spells. All these things are answerable, so often times a second Choke/Plague/Rest In Peace/etc can be extremely useful. Also against control (especially Miracles) tutoring gives them information they wouldn't otherwise have, which makes it a lot harder to bait Top activations.

[tescrin]

I would stick with 1 E. Tutor and 2x of the actual business spells. All these things are answerable, so often times a second Choke/Plague/Rest In Peace/etc can be extremely useful. Also against control (especially Miracles) tutoring gives them information they wouldn't otherwise have, which makes it a lot harder to bait Top activations.

IME if the first choke didn't get there you probably aren't getting the second there; and it's unlikely that you'll find a second copy (or the singleton ETutor) anyway. Cards I'm concerned about being answered I would agree with you on; such as Canonist (massacre/decay,etc..); but landing multiple chokes? I'd rather just tutor up a Sylvan Library or something that also interacts (again Chalice isn't bad there.)

Having 2 chokes or so has been awkward for me the last month as it's really meh against combo or Delver and shardless answers it quite easily so I'd rather have CA generators (Blossom, Library, Confidant, Equips, etc..)


Again, the versatility of E-Tutor to be on either side of some combos is quite nice (on paper anyway.) I could be wrong; but I've been really considering this versatility as the real selling point. I've not gotten a lot of E-Tutor reps in since last year but that storm interaction I described is really a beautiful thing. Screwed if they go for it, screwed if they don't; unless they have the absolute nuts for Tendrils or the answer for canonist. Same with increasing your number of Dredge outs, or your number of SneakShow outs, or similar. Interacting with brutal main-deck cards is icing.

You (allegedly) improve a single matchup (miracles) with that choke; but you could've improved Storm, SneakShow, Dredge, Goblins, Elves, D&T, and the list goes on. And again, in the instance that you find two chokes, you could've had Library + Choke; and who cares which one they answer at that point?

[ironclad8690]

I would stick with 1 E. Tutor and 2x of the actual business spells. All these things are answerable, so often times a second Choke/Plague/Rest In Peace/etc can be extremely useful. Also against control (especially Miracles) tutoring gives them information they wouldn't otherwise have, which makes it a lot harder to bait Top activations.

Holy crap E Tutor is $20 on modo! I might go with x1 just for budget reasons.

I am basically playing this deck online because I had finally put together Shardless both online and in paper but then I ran out of tickets and wanted to keep playing in tournaments so I sold off all the blue stuff and made the above deck, so I think I will try 1 e tutor when my online budget can allow for it. I will probably be playing this deck a lot though, because it is super fun and basically BG/x is my jamsauce.

[tescrin]

Thought I'd report on mediocrity; same list as before but swapping the 1-of Loam to a Pulse. Wasn't too relevant other than Loam may have fixed my mana issues in it's place one game.

MU1 - Shardless, 2-0
G1 - A bit grindy where I DRS, he DRS's, he keeps me off of extra mana so I drop goyf, he drops goyf, I decay him, he shardless into goyf, I have Bob for 3 turns, he visions, I eventually get him with Double goyf, Double DRS(while he's on his third of each too I think.) I used Jitte to kill goyfs who blocked; so mine were chomping his like nobodies business.
G2 - I thoughtseize early and find he has both Pulse and Deluge; where I have Bob/2xGoyf/SoLaS. I wait for him to put out Strix and Shardless so he has to kill his own CA if I put bob out. He pulses my first confidant and I lay another. He gets pressured by my Goyf + Equip enough to deluge into his own goyf. He deluges the board for 9 life (I had a sword equipped to it, he had a null rod deployed afterwards, so this is the only time I can use the sword) and plays a goyf. I play my own Goyf and a Blossom; slowly grinding him out with our goyf stall. Would've been less grindy but with the lack of fetches in the graveyard I had to wait around to do things.

MU2 - Merfolk 1-2...
G1 - Grindy when he has Jitte equipped to TNN; comes to the last points of damage and we both tilted a couple times on bad decisions; mostly him trying to shoot my stuff with Jitte and me pumping in response; then me wasting my pump counter on my reliable Jitte hitter to kill a 1/1 that I could've let live. Either way; it was evasive Jitte vs. evasive Jitte. I drew a lot of lands but I got it.
G2 - I get stuck on two lands and I keep decaying (I think 3 kill spells) after he FoWs a Goyf. I die to tempo. He must've drawn well as I TS away a lord from his 2 creature hand IIRC.
G3 - A bit grindy, I start with TS and take his back-to-basics while he has chalice and a lord in there. land choke after he taps out for Jitte on something. I kill the something and lock his lands but he has vial. I Land EPlague but he has 2 lords. I draw Blossom but he's got triple lord before long and I'm dead.

Very frustrating losing to merfolk..


MU3 - D&T
G1 - Early game I nix two of his plows with Therapy and I thoughtseize something else. I lay good beats in with Goyf land Blossom + Bob. He drops a batterskull and starts slowing the game way down and I just keep swinging and he keeps flickering the damn BSK. Eventually he finds Mirran crusader and that's game since I can't do anything about it (drew a Decay all game as my removal..) It was timely for him since I had just started getting Double Goyf Double Shaman; so the clock was there as soon as he stopped finding flickerwisps; but an unblockable unkillable crusader... Again, worth noting that I never found a plow, Lily, a second decay, or the pulse.

G2 - I crush him pretty well via equips on Blossom tokens and a goyf. He has Mom + FWisp early so my Jitte isn't doing much; but shortly thereafter I find the eplague, get rid of the wisp, and kill him.

G3 - I keep DRS, Waste, EE, Lily, bayou?, Marshflats. I scry away a bayou. He goes Plains, I go Bayou DRS; he plows + wastes. I get stuck on Swamp Wasteland for the rest of the game while he finds Thalia + wasteland and the active vial spews stuff out. he obviously has the absolute nuts this game.



I think the main interesting thing here is that blossom still did good work; creating huge goyfs and getting evasive equips across the board. I think I may swap a couple things in the side for Deluge; as it would've done good work all day; next to blossom/goyf you get to wipe the board unaffected. I think EPlague is weaker than I give it credit for.

Notably, Containment Priests haven't arrived yet and they would've been boss against both of those decks in shutting down the Vials.


Currently my side is:
3 ETutor <= I know it's high, but I want to get lots of experience with it before I make judgement calls on appropriate numbers. I think I've only boarded in 2 at most except against Dredge. But I've also only had a few combo matches..
1 Plague
1 Choke
1 Bridge
1 EE
2 Canonist
1 Rip
2 Chains
2 Cage
1 Chalice

I'm looking to:
-2 Chains, +2 Containment Priest (need sneakshow hate, don't mind over-hating against Dredge/Elves/Reanimator)
-1 Plague, +1 Deluge
-1 Cage, +1 Deluge (makes up for some of the over-hating)

3 Tutors is also mostly to maximize the possibility of an opening hand containing a hate card for a given combo match; though I'll reiterate I don't think I'll bring them in midrange/aggro MUs; and will only use 1-2 in Control MUs.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

I'm looking to:
-1 Plague, +1 Deluge
-1 Cage, +1 Deluge (makes up for some of the over-hating)

3 Tutors is also mostly to maximize the possibility of an opening hand containing a hate card for a given combo match.....

However, consider that you can Tutor for Plague or Cage, thereby giving you 4 'virtual' instances of either one or the other, rather than 2 physical Deluges (? Delugi ?)

[tescrin]

However, consider that you can Tutor for Plague or Cage, thereby giving you 4 'virtual' instances of either one or the other, rather than 2 physical Deluges (? Delugi ?)

My issue is that Plague didn't feel good against Merfolk/D&T, but maybe I had bad luck/choices when it came up.
Thinking on it it's probably more correct to drop the Pulse from the main for a Deluge, put a deluge in place of the Cage, and leave the Plague in for Elves?

Main for reference:
-21-
4 DRS,4 Bob,4 Goyf
3 SFM, 3 Equips, 3 Blossom

-19-
3 Plow, 3 Lily, 4 Decay, 1 Pulse becomes Deluge
4 TS, 2 Cabal
2 Library

21 lands

That seems good (Pulse for Deluge, Cage for Deluge, 2 Chains for 2 Priest) making the current sideboard:
3 Tutor
2 Canonist
1 Chalice
2 Containment Priest
1 Cage
1 Rip
1 Bridge
1 Choke
1 EE
1 Plague
1 Deluge

I could see going crazy and having Plague main instead of Deluge; but I think Deluge is worth testing since I think the effect will be one sided reasonably often.

[Richard Cheese]

IME if the first choke didn't get there you probably aren't getting the second there; and it's unlikely that you'll find a second copy (or the singleton ETutor) anyway. Cards I'm concerned about being answered I would agree with you on; such as Canonist (massacre/decay,etc..); but landing multiple chokes? I'd rather just tutor up a Sylvan Library or something that also interacts (again Chalice isn't bad there.)

Having 2 chokes or so has been awkward for me the last month as it's really meh against combo or Delver and shardless answers it quite easily so I'd rather have CA generators (Blossom, Library, Confidant, Equips, etc..)


Again, the versatility of E-Tutor to be on either side of some combos is quite nice (on paper anyway.) I could be wrong; but I've been really considering this versatility as the real selling point. I've not gotten a lot of E-Tutor reps in since last year but that storm interaction I described is really a beautiful thing. Screwed if they go for it, screwed if they don't; unless they have the absolute nuts for Tendrils or the answer for canonist. Same with increasing your number of Dredge outs, or your number of SneakShow outs, or similar. Interacting with brutal main-deck cards is icing.

You (allegedly) improve a single matchup (miracles) with that choke; but you could've improved Storm, SneakShow, Dredge, Goblins, Elves, D&T, and the list goes on. And again, in the instance that you find two chokes, you could've had Library + Choke; and who cares which one they answer at that point?

You're just focusing on Choke, but what I said is that I'd rather have more than 1 of all the business spells. First, I don't really get the logic of "you probably won't find the other copy anyway"...how is that different than having 1x business and 2 tutors? Having multiples of almost anything else is fine, Needle, Canonist, Plague, Chalice. Even for the cards where the second one doesn't add anything, I'm usually fine with drawing/playing it, because you're a lot less likely to see stuff like Serenity or Detention Sphere than you are EoT bounce or 1-for-1 removal like Wear//Tear or Decay (exception being creatures, obviously).

The before/after combo thing is so narrow that I wouldn't put much weight on it. You're talking about getting Plague if they go off with ETW, but that's likely a turn too slow unless you're holding the Tutor, in which case why didn't you get Canonist ASAP?

Don't get me wrong, I almost always run E. Tutor when I'm in White , but it's usually just to save space in the board. I'd run 3 of all the really strong hate cards for each matchup instead if I could. Tutoring is almost always a turn slower and you basically discard a card and time walk yourself when the card you grabbed gets countered. There's a good reason why nobody counters it. If something is just OK or highly situational in a matchup, then I'm usually fine with 1 in the board plus the tutor, or more likely none at all.

[tescrin]

First, I don't really get the logic of "you probably won't find the other copy anyway"...how is that different than having 1x business and 2 tutors?

Because that's your argument; that playing multiple choke is stronger because the first one may not land. If you were going to find multiples, you'd instead have a tutor; which seems fine in my case for finding Blossom/Library. Similarly, tutor can be Choke if I want it and would only find "1" copy.

Also, sometimes multiples are just dead. If I could suffer Card-Disadvantage to have Blossom + Choke in play rather than 2 chokes in play.. seems good. I'm merely extrapolating the game plan we have against fair decks to apply to miracles (too many must-answers to 1-for-1.)

The relevant quote where you argue this below:

I would stick with 1 E. Tutor and 2x of the actual business spells. All these things are answerable, so often times a second Choke/Plague/Rest In Peace/etc can be extremely useful. Also against control (especially Miracles) tutoring gives them information they wouldn't otherwise have, which makes it a lot harder to bait Top activations.
I'll add, that it usually only gives information during the second or two between their end-step and your draw step. I don't know why you'd cast tutor at any other time; though I'm open to believing there are cases for it (Non-Therapy discard from Storm)



The before/after combo thing is so narrow that I wouldn't put much weight on it. You're talking about getting Plague if they go off with ETW, but that's likely a turn too slow unless you're holding the Tutor, in which case why didn't you get Canonist ASAP?

Because you cast it EoT or during upkeep right?
So if you go:
Fetch->go with Tutor in hand
and they go
"lol 16 goblins :D",
you tutor for EE, pop it T2, and probably win.

If instead they *don't* do that, you tutor EoT, grab canonist, and have a good chance of winning. That isn't narrow in my experience against TES/Belcher; certainly it's different against ANT. This is also a primary reason I'm running EE regardless of whether I run plague (aside from minor implications against CounterTop and fair decks)

It's less relevant against some combo decks; where your arty/enchant answer/prevention seems to always be the same (start with bridge, then beat down.) Same on both sides of SneakShow. But.. for Reanimator: suppose you have the same situation:
T1 -> Fetch, Go

If this happens:
Them: Reanimate a dude
then
You: Tutor for Bridge

If instead:
Them: Cantrip or nothing
then
You: Tutor for Cage

It's not perfect; but it seems really handy to have the ability to have the correct card in hand.


EDIT: if it's not clear, I do agree that drawing E-Tutor as your answer seems weaker; but you should be keeping hands that have a good chance of winning, and having more cards (tutors) that get you to that point seems good. If instead you kept DRS, Thoughtseize, Liliana, Wasteland, Goyf and you draw into Tutor; you can probably afford to sit the turn for your other answer. If you keep garbage and hope to draw into stuff, you may just die because of Tutor; I just put more faith in the known information (kept hand) than the couple draw steps that decide the combo game.

[Richard Cheese]

My point is that for cards with significant impact in a specific matchup, you're better off with multiples. You're still focusing on Choke vs. Miracles, which is more or less interchangeable with other persistent threats. I'm thinking more of things like RiP vs BUG Delver or RG Lands. Sure, with multiple tutors you have the same chance of "drawing" the first copy, but if that one gets dealt with (and it likely will), you now have no chance of landing a second. I guess if you've got multiple cards that are all equally powerful in multiple matchups then it makes sense. It's usually a hierarchy though. What's your next move if Lands Grips your Rest In Peace? Bridge is ok at stopping Marit Lage but it doesn't do anything to their draw engine or Punishing Fire...it's just not even close in terms of impact in that match. I would much rather have A) a higher chance of RiP in my opening hand, and B) a second RiP, even if it means the potential of a dead draw.

In your Reanimator example, both scenarios just give them an extra turn to execute their gameplan. What if you're sitting on tutor and they reanimate Griselbrand, giving them a swing to gain all that life back and plenty of time/cards to find Decay or a counter? If they don't get a guy and you grab Cage and resolve it, you're in the same place as just dropping Cage T1, except a turn behind and you opened yourself up to Daze in the process.

Seems fine against Belcher, but I'm not sure if that's any better than just T1 discard. Even if you pull that off, you're passing on T2 with nothing on the board but 2 lands and what...4 of your original 7 in hand? Pretty damn decent, but not a guaranteed win by any means.

I agree that it makes more sense on paper to have fewer answers to more situations, but after talking to people way better and more accomplished at Legacy than me, I just think there are more times when speed or redundancy are preferable to versatility, especially in non-blue decks. They can get away with running 11 different cards in a sideboard because 12 cantrips is a lot better than 2 tutors for finding highly situational cards (and getting rid of them when they aren't applicable).

[Seraphix]

My point is that for cards with significant impact in a specific matchup, you're better off with multiples. You're still focusing on Choke vs. Miracles, which is more or less interchangeable with other persistent threats. I'm thinking more of things like RiP vs BUG Delver or RG Lands. Sure, with multiple tutors you have the same chance of "drawing" the first copy, but if that one gets dealt with (and it likely will), you now have no chance of landing a second. I guess if you've got multiple cards that are all equally powerful in multiple matchups then it makes sense. It's usually a hierarchy though. What's your next move if Lands Grips your Rest In Peace? Bridge is ok at stopping Marit Lage but it doesn't do anything to their draw engine or Punishing Fire...it's just not even close in terms of impact in that match. I would much rather have A) a higher chance of RiP in my opening hand, and B) a second RiP, even if it means the potential of a dead draw.

In your Reanimator example, both scenarios just give them an extra turn to execute their gameplan. What if you're sitting on tutor and they reanimate Griselbrand, giving them a swing to gain all that life back and plenty of time/cards to find Decay or a counter? If they don't get a guy and you grab Cage and resolve it, you're in the same place as just dropping Cage T1, except a turn behind and you opened yourself up to Daze in the process.

Seems fine against Belcher, but I'm not sure if that's any better than just T1 discard. Even if you pull that off, you're passing on T2 with nothing on the board but 2 lands and what...4 of your original 7 in hand? Pretty damn decent, but not a guaranteed win by any means.

I agree that it makes more sense on paper to have fewer answers to more situations, but after talking to people way better and more accomplished at Legacy than me, I just think there are more times when speed or redundancy are preferable to versatility, especially in non-blue decks. They can get away with running 11 different cards in a sideboard because 12 cantrips is a lot better than 2 tutors for finding highly situational cards (and getting rid of them when they aren't applicable).

Totally agree with this. E-tutor can be a deckbuilding trap that encourages you to go too deep with cute and narrow cards at the cost of resiliency. I've been most satisfied when I had a "regular" sideboard with some artifacts/enchantments, and then an E-tutor thrown in as "another copy" of those, rather than an "E-tutor board" of a bunch of singletons.

That aside, Plague is a card that has not treated me well. Elves can beat it with NO and if Merfolk gets under it with lords it does nothing. Something like Deluge or Deed is less narrow and more reliable.

[sdematt]

If you're trying to be token.deck that isn't Thopters or something, just run 3 ZP.

-Matt

[tescrin]

If you're trying to be token.deck that isn't Thopters or something, just run 3 ZP.

-Matt

I imagine that's supposed to be "beat".

The problem I'm attempting to solve is it feels quite stupid holding ZP against Tendrils or holding Thalia against Empty the warrens. Either way; I'll keep playing with it and either go back to normal sides or not. I don't see much difference between "cantrips" and "Tutors' really; as someone cantripping T1/T2 into their answer is no different; but I've said my piece I feel.

I don't think it's "Cute" to have 6 chances to mull to something vs. 4; even virtual. It's 80% (mull to 5) chance to find vs. 70% chance; with means 33% of those mulls to 4 don't happen. I could say the same about a virtual 4-of vs. an actual 2-of. If what you're siding against is Reanimator, Dredge, Storm, etc.. I don't see why this is wrong at all.

When you start bringing in RiP against Bug Delver in your Goyf/DRS/etc deck I feel like you're trying too hard. They have the same threats you do; you just have 15 more.

[jrsthethird]

Just posted this in the Deadguy thread, but since it plays a bit more midrange, I figured I'd copy it here too:


Just advanced into the Top 4 of the 2nd Source Cockatrice Tournament with this list, thrown together the night before the first round was posted:

21*Land
1*Forest
1*Plains
2*Swamp
1*Bayou
4*Marsh Flats
1*Savannah
4*Scrubland
1*Shambling Vent
1*Verdant Catacombs
3*Wasteland
2*Windswept Heath

15*Creatures
3*Mother of Runes
4*Stoneforge Mystic
3*Dark Confidant
1*Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4*Deathrite Shaman

24*Other Spells
3*Lingering Souls
3*Swords to Plowshares
2*Bitterblossom
3*Cabal Therapy
2*Inquisition of Kozilek
2*Painful Truths
2*Sylvan Library
4*Abrupt Decay
1*Sword of Fire and Ice
1*Sword of Light and Shadow
1*Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1*Ethersworn Canonist
2*Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2*Siege Rhino
2*Phyrexian Revoker
1*Swords to Plowshares
1*Cabal Therapy
2*Zealous Persecution
1*Manriki-Gusari
1*Nihil Spellbomb
2*Tormod's Crypt

Brief aside: I played Deadguy back in 2010 right after Worldwake was released. I played the version with Sinkhole, Hymn, Dark Rit, etc., backed with Confidant and SFM. It was fun, but lacked power. I switched to blue decks afterwards, but then I took a 4 year hiatus. Coming back into the game, I noticed how ridiculously underplayed Bitterblossom was, and in addition to the package of SFM and Lingering Souls, the card advantage is ridiculous. Add in the versatility of DRS and the absolute power of the catch-all answer of Abrupt Decay, and I think melding DGA with a more midrange strategy is the way to go. I don't even think most blue decks can match the card advantage available in Abzan now; I fondly remember a long game against Esper Stoneblade where we were both around 30 cards left in library, but even with all the cantrips in the blue suite, my library was actually thinner than theirs!

There's a reason B/W tokens is a common strategy in Modern and certain Standard environments, and the cards are there to support a similar go-wide strategy in Legacy too. Yeah, there's Terminus, but BB and Souls DGAF.

BFZ was just released before I made the deck, so I wanted to shoehorn some interesting cards into the deck. Drana was interesting. She eats Delvers and Cliques for breakfast, but that never came up in a match for me. She's obviously insane with tokens, but unless we're in a token mirror, I think that's win-more. The first strike makes for interesting interactions with equipment as well. Not relevant for SOLS, but SOFI lets us take out a blocker before it can kill our guy, and we can use the Jitte counters to pump an unblocked guy for extra damage. As a one-of it didn't do much, but there's potential.

Shambling Vent was included because it's a 21st land, a threat, and a source of lifegain all in one. It wasn't impressive, mostly because I rarely had the mana or need to activate it. I also sided it out against faster decks. This deck is so good at finding threats or answers that I was rarely flooded out of a game, so my mana was better used on actual cards in my hand than to turn on a threat. I think more testing in long, drawn out matches would prove whether it's useful or not. Probably not, but I can dream, right?

Painful Truths is the shit though. Definitely adds a bit to a long-term range for this deck.

Non-BFZ card choices:

IOK vs. Thoughtseize:

Seize is obviously better, but I went with IOK due to running Confidant, Bitterblossom, and Truths. Especially with so much Burn running around, too many cards that burn our life total is not good.

Equipment suite - SOFI, SOLS, Jitte, 0 Batterskull:

All 3 equipment I picked are boss with tokens. Jitte is a no-brainer. Flying makes it so much easier to connect for the Sword triggers, which are insane BTW. Both SOLS and SOFI are great sources of card advantage: SOFI is a raw one card off the top, so if we connect it always triggers. SOLS is actually better IMO, because it will let us reuse a threat (DRS, Bob, Mom, SFM, fucking Siege Rhino post SB), which is better than a possible land. SOFI either gets us 2 damage or a removal, which is nice, but the 3 life from SOLS is better in some situations. I think we have a ridiculous, almost unstoppable late game. Using so much life as a resource for cards or tokens, having a recurring 3 life per turn lets the other powerful cards in our deck do their thing.

I usually sided SOFI for Manriki against Stoneblade (could have kept all 4 though) and sided out Jitte for Manriki against Miracles (after seeing decklists, I knew a SFM + Batterskull package was coming in). SOLS really is the best equipment in the deck and I wouldn't play without it. I chose not to run Batterskull because without SFM, the cost is rather prohibitive. The reason why BS is so good is that it comes with a body already, but we have so many 1/1 flyers to carry equips that we can manage well without.

Sideboard:

A general mish-mash of answers for things. As I built the deck the night before, I didn't think too much about metagame concerns. Ethersworn/Thalia/Revoker is a decent hatebear package against combo decks, with Revoker doubling as a Needle effect for fair matchups. Grave package of Tormod's/Nihil (probably should have went 2 Nihil/1 Tormod) deals with opposing graveyards, but leaves our graveyard untouched for Souls/Therapy/SOLS. Extra STP against fast aggro decks, extra Therapy against combo. ZP is great against any mirror decks, Pyromancer, or TNN; also a possible maindeck card depending on meta.

Manriki caught a couple people off-guard, and it came in at least half my matches. SFM is played pretty heavily right now, and that gives us a huge edge. Pretty sure it won me a game against Stoneblade. Siege Rhino is a total house. There's a reason every Standard deck runs 4. Definitely comes in against aggro decks (6 total life swing is nothing to sneeze at, and it's huge ass is great for blocking), and also it's a total beast against Miracles. STP/CJ are the only ways to deal with it, and if they spend their CJ on it, that's a good thing. Terminus puts it on the bottom, which is ok for them, but once we shuffle we can redraw it and trigger again. The big thing with Rhino though is that he beats Jace hard. Just try bouncing him. ;)

I didn't have much testing going into the tournament, but I love this deck and there is so much raw power here. More card advantage than most blue decks (except maybe Shardless?), with an almost inevitable late game. A couple times I was down to 3-4 life but able to stabilize and win (and get back over 10 life to boot) on the back of SFM + SOLS/Jitte + tokens.

In a Miracles-heavy meta, this deck is boss. I just slaughtered Dragonslayer 2-0 in Top 8 and we talked briefly how bad this deck was for him. At no point in either game was I sitting with less than 3 relevant cards in hand, while he was spending his whole turn fishing for a way to deal with tokens. I didn't even cast a Decay, even though I saw 4 of them over both games. Bitterblossom and Souls both let us recover immediately after a Terminus, and post-board Siege Rhino just wins if they don't have STP. Game 2 I IOKed to take his SFM, and just ran threats into his countermagic to land it and he scooped.

I lost to Burn, which is pretty much expected with so much self-damage, and also to Fry's Daretti Welder pile, which happens. The other rounds (mostly blue decks, maybe a D&T or something?) I won very handily.

[tescrin]

Went 2-0-2 tonight; the draws in the bag against some players who could speed up their decisions a teense. (Merfolk where I have goyf on board, him cleared and an empty hand, 2 lilianas, a decay, and a DRS in hand.) Matches were Reanimator (new slower one), Zombardment, Merfolk, and BUG Faeries

Either way; the list was a bit odd as I got tired of Bob:
4 Drs
4 Goyf
2 Tasigur
2 SFM
3 Revoker
3 Bitterblossom

4 Plow
3 Decay
3 Lily

2 Mirri's Guile
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
4 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy

21 lands


MU1 Zombardment
G1 - Close game where I draw a bunch of lands and he finishes me off while hovering at 4 hp
G2 - Goyfs, Tasigur, Blossom Oh My
G3 - some trading back and forth. Go to turns with some fat on my side and him looking for outs IIRC

MU2 Reanimator
G1 - DRS gets killed, I drop blossom and revoker (grisel) against an Archtype of whatever. I slowly eat his health as he reanimates griselbrand and is stuck on 4 health. I wait for enough tokens and swing; using my removal on the one he blocks so he doesn't gain any life; finishing him off
G2 - Grindy game where he seems to have a bad keep in terms of going off. He can't quite put anything together while I disrupt. He gets something sort of together on 4 life but I just DRS EoT, DRS upkeep.

MU3 Merfolk
G1 - I mull and we trade hands basically. We get into topdeck mode and while we trade I eventually win it via SFM into Jitte, Plow, and Lily as followups.
G2 - I get a sweet Deluge on TNN + Lord but he's holding another and I can't quite get anything together in time despite blossom and a SoFaI on a faerie.
G3 - I draw out his misdirections/forces on stuff; and get him to nothing but islands vs my goyf, equip, and hand full of action with a Plague on merfolk. Unfortunately.. time is called.. with him a couple swings from death

MU4 Faeries
G1 - Goyfx2 and Blossom swamp him
G2 - I'm tempod out a bit and get beaten up by a Mistbind Clique that shuts off all of my outs with her Time Walk effect..
G3 - Draw out decays and forces while putting the nasties out, get DRS with a Jitte until I hardcast Tasigur (6 mana due to Leyline of the Void)

Was reasonably happy with Mirri's Guile. I like having a few more T1 plays and it's mostly there to keep the mix of action and garbage smoother. Tasigur was good all night; mostly just as a beater; but I did get to recycle a couple things. I think as a Goyf 5 and 6 he works to build good pressure early. As expected; he's difficult to remove due to decay's popularity .

Despite going "undefeated" it was not good enough for prize support :s, but c'est la vie; at least the deck started working again.

[Vandalize]

I don't see Bob being effective in legacy anymore. It pretty much dies everyime I cast it. Stoneforge Mystic always eat removal, but at least it can give you some form of card advantage without passing the turn.

My list:

Lands [21]
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Savnanah
2 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Siege Rhino

Spells [25]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard [15]
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Containment Priest
1 Krosan Grip
1 Feed the Clan

Deck relies mainly on Stoneforge/Lingering Souls to grind and Tarmogoyf to punch. Feed the Clan has been STELLAR in the sideboard. Buys plenty of time against Burn and Storm, and everytime you have a Tarmogoyf/Rhino/Skull on the field, you pretty much won the game.

I haven't miss the 3rd Liliana of the Veil as lately. Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor laugh on her :/

[sdematt]

I think Bob is fine, but agree, fragile as heck. Painful Truths is something you may want to consider. Sure, you tap out for it, but 3 cards for 3 life is never bad, and Rhino/Jitte help to offset that.

Otherwise, I like the list. I would change Liliana to Truths and give it a shot.

-Matt

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Has anyone tried Meren in a Rock build yet? More than one copy?

Meren of Clan Nel Toth and Cabal Therapy seems unfair :-)

[Jain_Mor]

She's been doing waves in the nic-fit thread.
When you have the mana to GSun for her and you sac your own dudes for profit she's pretty damn good

[tescrin]

Thoughts for the week:
* Bob requires Mom or some other protection{1}
* Tasigur next to Goyf felt bad this last couple of times out. Maybe it's uncommon, but I have a guy who (with an ETutor package) also packs 3 RiPs. It was a pain in the ass given it was D&T and they're slowing your plays down anyway. DRS + Goyf + Tasigur just leaves you so open to grave hate.
* I think I've been vastly over-valuing fat.

I think I'll be moving away from beaters for a little bit and moving towards more of a DGA style deck. I've always wanted to try out Lightning Greaves; and despite fat being better next to it; so is Bob, Equipped dudes, and similar. Landing even a 1/1 token on the board with Jitte + Greaves is basically GG between the Haste, Shroud, and the counters you plop on right afterwards. Should make games with Snap + Plow more tolerable anyway.

I think I'll be on a Decay DGA build in the short-term future and see how it treats me. Am looking to get an edge on D&T, but for some reason my lists always seem to only be 50/50 or maybe worse.

[jrsthethird]

Thoughts for the week:
* Bob requires Mom or some other protection{1}
* Tasigur next to Goyf felt bad this last couple of times out. Maybe it's uncommon, but I have a guy who (with an ETutor package) also packs 3 RiPs. It was a pain in the ass given it was D&T and they're slowing your plays down anyway. DRS + Goyf + Tasigur just leaves you so open to grave hate.
* I think I've been vastly over-valuing fat.

I think I'll be moving away from beaters for a little bit and moving towards more of a DGA style deck. I've always wanted to try out Lightning Greaves; and despite fat being better next to it; so is Bob, Equipped dudes, and similar. Landing even a 1/1 token on the board with Jitte + Greaves is basically GG between the Haste, Shroud, and the counters you plop on right afterwards. Should make games with Snap + Plow more tolerable anyway.

I think I'll be on a Decay DGA build in the short-term future and see how it treats me. Am looking to get an edge on D&T, but for some reason my lists always seem to only be 50/50 or maybe worse.

I back this. I think that style of deck is very well-positioned right now. D&T doesn't have much card selection, so if you can survive the early game taxing we can pull ahead by sheer card quality. Also a go-wide tokens deck has an excuse to maindeck ZP which can blowout D&T game 1 if they aren't expecting it.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

I've always wanted to try out Lightning Greaves

Lightning Greaves

Thinking alike here. It piqued my interest when it came 'free' in Meren's Commander pack. The problem I've had in testing is second-guessing myself (20/20 hindsight is annoying!) as to when to take it or take Jitte via SFM. But equipping it onto Meren or a hasty 6/7 Goyf isn't too shabby. I still haven't lived the dream of Jitte & Batterskull & Greaves on a 1/1 flying token ;-)

[sdematt]

I think Truths is where we want to be, at least as a 2-of. I'll be trying this, variant of Vandalize's list:

Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Savnanah
3 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Siege Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells 24
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow/Greaves

Sideboard [15]
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Feed the Clan (I'll try it out)
1 Bitterblossom
1 Alternate Equipment/GSZ bullet

[Echelon]

Just a few more tweaks and you've got Nic Fit...

[sdematt]

Problem? ;)

If that's what it takes to win in the metagame, then I'm fine with that since it involves all my favourite cards.

-Matt

[jrsthethird]

A stone's throw away from DGA too. Swap out Goyfs and Rhinos for Bobs and Moms and you're there.

Edit: Check out these guys I won in the Source tourney top 4 with DGA:

http://imgur.com/TARmjJl

[Richard Cheese]

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

[sdematt]

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

So basically top 16, mucked on breakers? Seems good. Congrats! I think the colours are very strong right now :) No hand disruption in the main...thoughts?

[Richard Cheese]

So basically top 16, mucked on breakers? Seems good. Congrats! I think the colours are very strong right now :) No hand disruption in the main...thoughts?

Yeah I ended up being at the very bottom of the 12-pointers, with 2 16s and I think 7 15s. A little disappointing since I lost a round 2 game against BUG Delver that went turn 1 Deathrite, turn 2 Waste, Thalia. He flooded out, including double Waste, and I never drew another land. I got a bit lucky in the last round against Painter though, he didn't realize Arbor is still a creature under Moon effects and sent his Magus on a death march when I was basically locked out.

Didn't really miss discard main. Every Legacy deck just seems so redundant and/or packed with cantrips that the only time I care about a specific spell is against combo, and I really hate drawing discard late in the game. My thoughts when building this list were to just have as few dead draws as possible. Thalia and Teeg give me a chance against combo game 1. Not a great chance, but they're good in other matchups as well.

Mox is just a concession to the fact that I really want to hit 4-5 mana consistently, and the occasional explosive start is cool. Still, I may drop them and go to a 3/3 split with Hierarch and Deathrite, or hell, maybe 2/4 with Sylvan Caryatid. DRS is so good when left unmolested, but yesterday he mostly played the role of holding off other Deathrites, and Ooze is just better at that.

I may also look to replace Goyfs, or at least go down to 2. Between DRS or Rest in Peace showing up in every. fucking. game., the guy just isn't the threat he used to be. Probably cut one to put the second Ooze main, and another for...something.

Edit: Here are my matchups, in order:

Round 1: Grixis Delver 1-2
Round 2: BUG Delver (w/Stilfenought) 0-2
Round 3: DDFT 2-1
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: RUG Delver 2-0
Round 6: D&T 2-0 (hooray for last minute Stony Silence!)
Round 7: Rw Imperial Painter 2-0

[Ricardio]

This is kind of around the deck I want to play irl. I play junk fit on mtgo so I understand some aspects of this archetype.

I have a semi-ridiculous question: seeing as the rock refers to BGx, what about a blue splash for the usual suspects?
Like a Blue rock or Rocking Blues? Not necessarily force but baleful, brainstorm, ponder?
At first, it seems like a worse shard less but I believe that deck is a bury my opp in value and hope to get there. I want a smooth drawing Bob goyf throw down with decay and their homey Drs. Probably some lily, library. Definitely 4 wasteland.

How ignorant/stupid/naive am I to suggest this?

[tescrin]

Rockin Blues
What's most likely to happen is that over time it'll morph into Shardless BUG, BUG Control (planeswalkers, Deed, etc..), or BUG Delver.
I think it used to be BGx; but I think this thread is just for BGw now. Maverick is GWb generally, though sometimes it's GWr. Same goes for DGA as it's BWg; occasionally BWr (but that has its own thread.)

The problem with adding blue is it gets it's own thread and becomes a DTB, thereby not being a part of this thread anymore anyway :P. If you think you can engineer a BGu without going to BUg or GUb, by all means; but I doubt it. Also, 4 wastes with Liliana, Strix, and Decay may end up with minor issues.

[Ricardio]

What's most likely to happen is that over time it'll morph into Shardless BUG, BUG Control (planeswalkers, Deed, etc..), or BUG Delver.
I think it used to be BGx; but I think this thread is just for BGw now. Maverick is GWb generally, though sometimes it's GWr. Same goes for DGA as it's BWg; occasionally BWr (but that has its own thread.)

The problem with adding blue is it gets it's own thread and becomes a DTB, thereby not being a part of this thread anymore anyway :P. If you think you can engineer a BGu without going to BUg or GUb, by all means; but I doubt it. Also, 4 wastes with Liliana, Strix, and Decay may end up with minor issues.

Understood. Thank you for the response. I think I am trying to make team America into the Rock.

[Warden]

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

This is so close to the deck I wanna play IRL. I think Goyfs are strong beatsticks, but you have room to shave down to 2 or 3. This gives you room for a vindicate/pulse as catch-all insurance.

[tescrin]

This is so close to the deck I wanna play IRL. I think Goyfs are strong beatsticks, but you have room to shave down to 2 or 3. This gives you room for a vindicate/pulse as catch-all insurance.

It would make much more sense to shave a Knight and 1-2 Rhinos than a couple of goyfs IMO

[Hmmm_Really?]

I may also look to replace Goyfs, or at least go down to 2. Between DRS or Rest in Peace showing up in every. fucking. game., the guy just isn't the threat he used to be. Probably cut one to put the second Ooze main, and another for...something.


Meren?

[Warden]

It would make much more sense to shave a Knight and 1-2 Rhinos than a couple of goyfs IMO

Possibly. Unless you want to reduce your dependence upon the GY. Trimming 1 Knight and 1-2 goyfs gives you room to add something non-GY based like Smiter or Meren that's got a decent ass and can be zenith'ed.

[jrsthethird]

Understood. Thank you for the response. I think I am trying to make team America into the Rock.

America Rocks!.dec

[sdematt]

4 colour Rock = Tombstone, you young whippsnappers. Basically, you just shoved Brainstorm into this deck.

-Matt

[Ricardio]

Possibly. Unless you want to reduce your dependence upon the GY. Trimming 1 Knight and 1-2 goyfs gives you room to add something non-GY based like Smiter or Meren that's got a decent ass and can be zenith'ed.

Meren is directly gy dependent. D'oh!

[tescrin]

Possibly. Unless you want to reduce your dependence upon the GY. Trimming 1 Knight and 1-2 goyfs gives you room to add something non-GY based like Smiter or Meren that's got a decent ass and can be zenith'ed.

But by the time we're leaving 4-drop Goyfs in the main; why exactly isn't it just better to gain CA and inevitability from SFM?
He's basically Maverick that replaced SFM and equips with Goyfs and Rhinos, but wants to cut the goyfs.

I mean, he did well... but do we know that Rhinos had anything to do with it? I'd be curious for a report (which he may have already supplied elsewhere); but I have to imagine that Rhino is not better than just equipping and having a QPM in the main.

I do agree with him that he's too grave heavy. The fact he did that well is impressive (but as I said a page ago, we have a lot of RiPs here.)

[Warden]

4 colour Rock = Tombstone, you young whippsnappers. Basically, you just shoved Brainstorm into this deck.

-Matt

Skip blue. Go pfires and bloodbraid. I wanna see that magic christmasland that is Junk + Jund

[Richard Cheese]

Nah I haven't written a report. Maybe I will but I didn't really take notes so it would be mediocre at best. Rhino won almost every game he showed up in, especially in multiples. I can't tell you how great it feels to resolve carpet then back to back Rhinos against Shardless. I really can't say enough good things about the guy, but here are some of the key points:


The life swing is huge, it speeds up your clock and lets you be more aggressive with Library.
Trample is also highly relevant right now. Pyromancer, Mentor, Strix, Shardless Agent, Snapcaster...all this little shit that your opponents can use to keep themselves or their planeswalkers in the game. Literally won the round against Shardless by just going over a Strix for lethal.
He's also just a pain in the ass to deal with. No Bolt, no Decay.
Having a creature with 0 graveyard dependence is nice. Rest in Peace is everywhere Deathrite isn't. Thanks to Rhino I was able to ignore RiP against Painter and D&T and hold up my Decays for more important targets.


Between maindeck Deathrites, sideboard RiP, and chump blockers, Goyf just wasn't a reliable threat in almost any match. SFM is probably the most likely replacement, I just built the deck to be really aggro, but I'm not seeing the speed I was hoping for because of the reasons above, so she's worth another look. I really want to put the second Ooze in the main though.

FWIW it plays more like Zoo than Maverick. Redundant threats vs. protection/toolbox and all that.

[Warden]

Cheese, what would you do to insert SFM into the deck (since a straight swap means you wouldn't get equipment)? Would you shave down on Knights and Rhinos to make room or pull from elsewhere?
SFM means you can effectively put in hierarchs (work well with SFM for mana and to carry stuff)

[Hmmm_Really?]

@Cheese: conversely, how many times has a Goyf been a game changer/winner? 'Negative bias' has much more powerful psychological effect than a positive experience. That's just the way the brain is wired. So is it possible you're over-emphasizing the few bad times, when RiP is pissing on your Goyfs, and ignoring the more frequent good times when your Goyfs are doing what Goyfs are supposed to do... smash face?

[Richard Cheese]

@Cheese: conversely, how many times has a Goyf been a game changer/winner? 'Negative bias' has much more powerful psychological effect than a positive experience. That's just the way the brain is wired. So is it possible you're over-emphasizing the few bad times, when RiP is pissing on your Goyfs, and ignoring the more frequent good times when your Goyfs are doing what Goyfs are supposed to do... smash face?

I think the only round where he actually did much damage was against DDFT, because I Decayed my own Diamond to get him up to 5. He's also good at keeping opposing Goyfs off your back, but I'm not sure Ooze isn't just better there since he can nerf opposing Deathrites and Knights at the same time.

@Warden - not really sure. I think I would only play a couple equipment and a couple SFM. I still like the idea of having 1-2 Goyfs around for when you just 'gotta go fast' though, and I still want that second Ooze main. Depending on your meta you could move the maindeck Teeg to the board, or cut him and Pridemage and go down to 2-3 Zeniths. Or I suppose you could cut a Knight, I don't have a big land toolbox or anything. I do really like her ability for ramping out a Rhino and various other trickery.

[tescrin]

I think the only round where he actually did much damage was against DDFT, because I Decayed my own Diamond to get him up to 5.

Your experience is hugely foreign to me. I find that most of the time against other Goyf decks, it's down to who draws their removal or second goyf. I've never had issues with DRS (even with DRS on both sides) keeping Goyfs small; and most of the time have an Artifact, Planeswalker, or Enchant in the grave (I like to run with Revoker, Library, Lily, etc..) making even my typical goyf larger than your typical rhino.

That said (and deleting my pro-goyf rant), it looks like we play with different philosophies. Without Liliana, Deluge, Revoker, and Equips; I can see how your spot removal is just that. My spot removal tends to be numerous and thusly aim to lock the opponent out and it's odd if I don't see 3-4 pieces (which actually makes the size of my dudes less relevant except for defense and closing time.) Currently I've gone haywire in a 4c version running 4 Plow, 3 Decay, 3 Pfire, 3 Lili, Jitte/SoFai, 3 discard, 3-4 Revoker, and (essentially) a Reclamation sage. The literal "try to answer every permanent you can get while putting threats out" is just feels a lot better to me. Never tried a "big zoo" approach before.

This difference in perspective/playstyle may be where most of our differences come from; in which case probably disregard what I was saying (not that you were going to follow it anyway lol.)

[Richard Cheese]

Your experience is hugely foreign to me. I find that most of the time against other Goyf decks, it's down to who draws their removal or second goyf. I've never had issues with DRS (even with DRS on both sides) keeping Goyfs small; and most of the time have an Artifact, Planeswalker, or Enchant in the grave (I like to run with Revoker, Library, Lily, etc..) making even my typical goyf larger than your typical rhino.

That said (and deleting my pro-goyf rant), it looks like we play with different philosophies. Without Liliana, Deluge, Revoker, and Equips; I can see how your spot removal is just that. My spot removal tends to be numerous and thusly aim to lock the opponent out and it's odd if I don't see 3-4 pieces (which actually makes the size of my dudes less relevant except for defense and closing time.) Currently I've gone haywire in a 4c version running 4 Plow, 3 Decay, 3 Pfire, 3 Lili, Jitte/SoFai, 3 discard, 3-4 Revoker, and (essentially) a Reclamation sage. The literal "try to answer every permanent you can get while putting threats out" is just feels a lot better to me. Never tried a "big zoo" approach before.

This difference in perspective/playstyle may be where most of our differences come from; in which case probably disregard what I was saying (not that you were going to follow it anyway lol.)

Like I said, my list plays more like Zoo than Maverick or old Rock lists. Unfortunately "BGx midrange" is a pretty fucking huge umbrella but it's better than a new thread for every nuance IMO. I'm not saying I've found "The One True Way" or something. Just another riff on the color combination that's been working for me and it suits my play style.

I actually still like Goyf a lot, which is why I auto-included 4 copies when I built the deck. I just kept finding that he was one of the easiest cuts postboard, usually 1-2 of, and to me that's grounds for a closer look. I think I'll probably start small and just go 3 Goyf/2 Ooze main and see how that feels.

[jrsthethird]

Another awesome thing about Rhino: he laughs at JTMS so hard.

[Hmmm_Really?]

I can't tell you how great it feels to resolve carpet then back to back Rhinos against Shardless.

Hah, can confirm the great feeling.... I just did that online! Won a close first game but Carpet and Rhino made it a cake walk in G2, even though he cascaded a blind Visions (lucky f*cker) and then decayed my Jitte (yes, I've squeezed the Equipment package into a 61 card deck). Seriously considering taking to FNM Legacy this week.

[Warden]

I think the only round where he actually did much damage was against DDFT, because I Decayed my own Diamond to get him up to 5. He's also good at keeping opposing Goyfs off your back, but I'm not sure Ooze isn't just better there since he can nerf opposing Deathrites and Knights at the same time.

@Warden - not really sure. I think I would only play a couple equipment and a couple SFM. I still like the idea of having 1-2 Goyfs around for when you just 'gotta go fast' though, and I still want that second Ooze main. Depending on your meta you could move the maindeck Teeg to the board, or cut him and Pridemage and go down to 2-3 Zeniths. Or I suppose you could cut a Knight, I don't have a big land toolbox or anything. I do really like her ability for ramping out a Rhino and various other trickery.

I like the synergy of zenithing into big green things. I also adore Toxic Deluge, which fits so well into your list. If Goyf was lackluster, I wonder if SFM is the solution or if it dilutes the deck more. SFM itself is just a tutor with legs, which does A LOT for a "drop things and attack" strategy.

**update: I gold fishes and tinkered with Cheese's main deck. It's actually pretty solid and I'd agree it feels like Zoo than Maverick or Junk Rock. Noble Hierarchy was really nice in place of mox sequence-wise. I had openers of double hierarch into rhino that look fantastic. Other times I drew hands of fat after fat. The problem with the deck is its lack of interaction. I think Thalia and 1-2 more should be discard and/or removal. Maybe Thalia could become tidehollow (faux discard with legs)? If I don't have decay in hand, I can't really interact with a pesky permanent on be board. Likewise, if the fat I drop on the table is dealt with, I lose a ton of momentum.

I tried several creature configurations and the default 4 goyf "works" if you wanna be aggressive like Zoo. I think I'd shave a KotR or Goyf out of the list entirely. Part of me also missed Liliana, but then you're going back to pure junk and not this threat heavy concept. Liliana would be a strain on Cheese's colors

[Mirrislegend]

I started with a DGA based list, but found myself overrun in some early games and unable to end games in a time effective manner. I swapped out Lingering Souls (which, while awesome, almost always played a passive role) for Tarmogoyfs and ended up with this list.

4 Deathrite Shama
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Manriki Gusari
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
1 Karakas
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Choke
1 [open slot]

The addition of Goyfs led the DGA thread to point me here. My biggest concern is beating BUG, as it is consistently my most difficult matchup. While Mirran Crusader is the obvious choice for that sideboard slot, I'm concerned about BUG's fairly large number of sweepers. So my primary candidates for that spot are Lingering Souls and Nahiri.

General advice and BUG advice are very welcome.

[sdematt]

I started with a DGA based list, but found myself overrun in some early games and unable to end games in a time effective manner. I swapped out Lingering Souls (which, while awesome, almost always played a passive role) for Tarmogoyfs and ended up with this list.

4 Deathrite Shama
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Manriki Gusari
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
1 Karakas
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Choke
1 [open slot]

The addition of Goyfs led the DGA thread to point me here. My biggest concern is beating BUG, as it is consistently my most difficult matchup. While Mirran Crusader is the obvious choice for that sideboard slot, I'm concerned about BUG's fairly large number of sweepers. So my primary candidates for that spot are Lingering Souls and Nahiri.

General advice and BUG advice are very welcome.

Do you mean beating bug Delver or Shardless? Since if you're looking to fight Shardless, Feast and Famine and Lingering Souls are your go-to. I also wouldn't mind seeing some Grips in here somewhere ;) Plus, lone Karakas makes me weep. Otherwise, a very solid 4x list :)

[Mirrislegend]

Do you mean beating bug Delver or Shardless? Since if you're looking to fight Shardless, Feast and Famine and Lingering Souls are your go-to. I also wouldn't mind seeing some Grips in here somewhere ;) Plus, lone Karakas makes me weep. Otherwise, a very solid 4x list :)

Shardless. The 8x MD removal, 3 Liliana, and Bskull package make Delver an easy matchup.

KGrips? Why?

Lone Karakas with no Knight is sad Karakas. However, the sideboard is for cards that are very impactful in a specific matchup and are significantly less relevant in other matchups. I can't think of any cards that hate on Gristlebrand and Emrakul better than Karakas. But Karakas is shit in every other use.

Lingering Souls runs into their sweepers (MD and SB) and Sword runs into their Decays+SB. This is a hard choice.

[tescrin]

Lone Karakas with no Knight is sad Karakas. However, the sideboard is for cards that are very impactful in a specific matchup and are significantly less relevant in other matchups. I can't think of any cards that hate on Gristlebrand and Emrakul better than Karakas. But Karakas is shit in every other use.
His comment on lone Karakas is precisely because it's not very useful; especially in the Sideboard where your deck with no cantrips has even less chance of seeing it during the relevant matchups. I realize you could say that about a lot of sideboard cards, but I think it holds more true for Lands or similar since you can easily run it maindeck or not at all. It's just not powerful enough without Revoker and it's not powerful enough to stop Sneak Attack or a well timed Through the Breach.

Ensnaring Bridge is better. They can't attack even with Sneak Attack. Requires bounce or removal. Can be casted through blood moon. Isn't countered by blood moon. You can still win via DRS or Jitte Beats as you remove their fat with Lilianas or swing with several dudes at a time.

E Bridge is also tutorable.


EDIT: Let's just say that I think the whole sideboard needs a complete overhaul. Even 3 Choke feels excessive.

[Mirrislegend]

EDIT: Let's just say that I think the whole sideboard needs a complete overhaul. Even 3 Choke feels excessive.

E Bridge sounds brilliant. And I'm totally open to suggestions. What would you change and why?

EDIT: I'll include my thought processes for reference

- SoFI is in the sideboard because I found that I don't tutor for it often but it is still better than every other equipment other than BSkull and Jitte
- Manriki Gusari is the one-slot answer to all Stoneforge decks
- Gaddock Teeg is great against classic combo and against Miracles
- Extirpate is to complement the large discard suite. Discard alone doesn't beat combo decks. Extirpate turns that discard into a real backbreaker.
- We've discussed Karakas
- Zealous Persecution beats Elves, Maverick, and Storm/Belcher post board
- Choke is relevant against any blue deck that is not a delver deck

[Chatto]

Like I said, my list plays more like Zoo than Maverick or old Rock lists. Unfortunately "BGx midrange" is a pretty fucking huge umbrella but it's better than a new thread for every nuance IMO. I'm not saying I've found "The One True Way" or something. Just another riff on the color combination that's been working for me and it suits my play style.

I actually still like Goyf a lot, which is why I auto-included 4 copies when I built the deck. I just kept finding that he was one of the easiest cuts postboard, usually 1-2 of, and to me that's grounds for a closer look. I think I'll probably start small and just go 3 Goyf/2 Ooze main and see how that feels.

I like the list, and like the Junk/Zoo-approach. A quick couple of questions:

- I know KotR is good, but being truely GY-independent would something like Loxodon Smiter not be better?
- Have you considered using Veteran Explorer as a ramp in opposite of Mox D? Granted, you would probably have to play Cabal Therapy... Veteran's ramp-effect would also greatly nerve the effect of Thalia, I suppose.
- I'm toying with Painful Truths, and what could be the 'best' deck for the card, but that would perhaps be too cute.

Anyway, cool deck and congrats on the results.

[Richard Cheese]

I like the list, and like the Junk/Zoo-approach. A quick couple of questions:

- I know KotR is good, but being truely GY-independent would something like Loxodon Smiter not be better?
- Have you considered using Veteran Explorer as a ramp in opposite of Mox D? Granted, you would probably have to play Cabal Therapy... Veteran's ramp-effect would also greatly nerve the effect of Thalia, I suppose.
- I'm toying with Painful Truths, and what could be the 'best' deck for the card, but that would perhaps be too cute.

Anyway, cool deck and congrats on the results.

Knight definitely loses some oomph postboard against RiP, but shutting off the graveyard doesn't shut off her ability, which can still be extremely relevant. I used her several times at that event to ramp out a Siege Rhino, and she can still fetch Wasteland if you're trying to hold someone down under Thalia, nullify opposing Wastelands, and provide a shuffle effect for Library.

Not crazy about Explorer, mostly for the reason you pointed out. Thalia and Wasteland are my disruption. I suppose you could go for discard and basiscs instead, but I'm not really sure that's worth it over two slots.

Not crazy about truths. The deck is pretty redundant so you're more interested in card quality than quantity. I also tend to not deploy more than one threat/turn, as I'm usually holding up mana for StP/Deathrite/Decay/Ooze. The curve is also already pretty high and I don't think I'd want another 3-drop.

[Dimitrius]

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

Have you thought of playing any number of Painful Truths? Or is Zenith/Knight a consistent enough engine to find what you need?

[sdematt]

I really feel like people are underestimating Truths. Sure, a good shell is a good shell, but drawing cards is never bad. I think any flavour of black deck should be running it, except if you're Tempo like, say, BUG Delver. Anything midrange and up, I'd run it. Esper Truths, Grixis Truths, Junk Truths....

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3561614.jpg

[Dimitrius]

I really feel like people are underestimating Truths. Sure, a good shell is a good shell, but drawing cards is never bad. I think any flavour of black deck should be running it, except if you're Tempo like, say, BUG Delver. Anything midrange and up, I'd run it. Esper Truths, Grixis Truths, Junk Truths....

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3561614.jpg

I was just testing this list:

Creatures:
2X Siege Rhino
3X Knight of the Reliquary
1X Loxodon Smiter
1X Qasali Pridemage
3X Scavenging Ooze
4X Deathrite Shaman
4X Veteran Explorer

Spells:
4X Painful Truths
4X Cabal Therapy
1X Maelstrom Pulse
3X Abrupt Decay
4X Green Sun's Zenith
4X Swords to Plowshares


Land:
2X Bayou
1X Forest
1X Karakas
4X Marsh Flats
1X Plains
2X Savannah
2X Scrubland
1X Swamp
4X Verdant Catacombs
3X Wasteland
1X Bojuka Bog

SB:
2X Containment Priest
2X Duress
2X Gaddock Teeg
2X Golgari Charm
2X Maelstrom Pulse
1X Stony Silence
1X Toxic Deluge
2X Tsabo's Web
1X Umezawa's Jitte

I felt like it was *almost* there. Painful truths was a house, as was scooze. Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer was a nifty little combo, too.

[T-101]

Did 4 truths feel good?

In decks like this, I'm hesitant to run too much of a card that costs 3 and doesn't affect the board.

I mean, maybe it was just super gas all day for you, but 4 looks a little heavy for my tastes.

[from Cairo]

4X Veteran Explorer

1X Forest
1X Plains
1X Swamp

Think you want more than 3 basics if running 4 explorer, otherwise the 2nd or 3rd one you draw is pretty horrible. I'd probably run single copies of the duals and atleast 5 basics.

[Chatto]

-list/

Apart from the fact it's more a NicFit-list, I am on a similar path. Not sure I'm supposed to post my list here or in the NicFit-thread. With Veteran Explorer giving you 'free mana' I too found Painful Truths good. Currently I'm testing three.

[tescrin]

Personal preference is to not-corrupt this thread with being a secondary Nic-Fit thread. While I've been a Nic-Fit player from time to time, but they are different decks. If I'm in the Maverick thread, I don't usually suggest Goyfs or Bobs, because they're antithetical to the deck's premise. Just IMO

[sdematt]

I think if you are into more than one Veteran in the deck, time to switch to Nic Fit thread.

[Dimitrius]

Did 4 truths feel good?

In decks like this, I'm hesitant to run too much of a card that costs 3 and doesn't affect the board.

I mean, maybe it was just super gas all day for you, but 4 looks a little heavy for my tastes.

It worked out fine. I would probably cut to three and cut one or two knights for goyfs. Probably cut a veteran explorer for another goyf, add a basic.

Thanks for the suggestions, all.

[Jain_Mor]

So.. We can play a poor mans ponder in green, that pumps our goyfs in multiples and let's us cast Liliana off 3 different basic lands or even a forest and 2 wastelands. Interesting.

4 Oath of Nissa
4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
4 Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Tidehollow / 2 KotR
2 Liliana
1 Planeswalker/Liliana
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
4 Decay
2 StP

20 Land
4 Verdant
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah

SB
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Elspeth, Knight
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia
2 Containment Priest
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Scavenging Ooze

[Chatto]

Too bad Oath doesn't fetch you instants, sorceries, enchantments or artifacts.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes, that's what you should take away from this.

Are you kidding me? I'm pretty excited about this. First Truths, now this? I'm ecstatic. I can't wait to start theorycrafting a new build. This may even help open up other archetypes, such as Superfriends.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160104/966f34b6f7b93973c08e79896d80c323.jpg

So, what do ya think?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

What about a build with more dudes as "spells" like shtiekmaw?

[Mr. Safety]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160104/966f34b6f7b93973c08e79896d80c323.jpg

So, what do ya think?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Efficiency is worse than Treetop Village, and I think a 3/3 trampler is much better than a 2/2 deathtouch. I've tried Nantuko Monastery and that seems better as well. I just don't think the dual color production is worth the weaker manland, especially in a format that historically plays very few manlands (mutavault occasionally, factories in pox etc, and dark depths aside.) Its just too risky, even as a 1-of, in rock.

I've been on treetop x1 in rock for years, but I am in the minority.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I also play a 1x-of Treetop Village. You are probably correct, I also think that I would play the G/W manland first, simply because of Delver.

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[jrsthethird]

Even Shambling Vent's lifelink is better than this.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No, I think the Deathtouch is better than lifelink. There are already multiple ways of gaining life in the deck, I think if not trample for a potentially faster clock, then some way of affecting the battlefield is best.

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[T-101]

The draw to the new B/G manland is the Deathtouch (attacks through Goyf, blocks Goyf).

Is that worth the extra mana cost, and the worse stats? I suspect not, at least for Legacy. If this were to be played, I'd expect it in a defensive deck, like old school BUG control. But that deck isn't really a thing anymore, and I'm not sure it would be interested in this even if it were.

[tescrin]

No, I think the Deathtouch is better than lifelink. There are already multiple ways of gaining life in the deck, I think if not trample for a potentially faster clock, then some way of affecting the battlefield is best.

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But being an x/3+ is better than being an x/2 by miles. This gets killed by everything but Decay; including Pfire, the vast majority of 2-drops in legacy, shardless agent, and other garbage cards (it's a good card, but you know what I mean.)

I've been waiting for this card since Zendikar, and it's garbage. Trading with Tarmogoyf/BSK Token for the loss of beating or swinging through every other creature in legacy is a *MASSIVE* loss in effectiveness. Literally every other land in the 10-card cycle except for the RB and probably the RU land is better. Better at pushing damage, better at getting the damage through due to evasion

I stand by that. UW, UB, UG(barely), RG, RW(barely), WG, WB.

@T-101
They'd rather have UB (who just attacks through) or UG (who beats everything but Zombie-Fish/Goyf; where as this draws or loses with everything)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, but you will notice I didn't make any argument for playing the card, though. I only said that Deathtouch is better in a vacuum for this deck than Lifelink in reference to the manland slot, nothing more.

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[tescrin]

Sure, but you will notice I didn't make any argument for playing the card, though. I only said that Deathtouch is better in a vacuum for this deck than Lifelink in reference to the manland slot, nothing more.

But what I mean is that a 2/3 is better than an X/2, regardless of abilities*; due to the vast number of 2/x's in Legacy.
Apologies if you already got that from my post, I may have buried it in ranting or something :p

*These abilities. Were we comparing Flying or card drawing or brutal abilities like that, obviously I'd retract my argument and jump off a cliff or something.

[jrsthethird]

With Thoughtseize, Bob, Painful Truths, fetchlands, Bitterblossom, etc., paying life is a thing and finding ways to hedge against that is not worth ignoring.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

@Tescrin: I understand, and obviously any increase in stats is going to make it better, but I don't know if it would be enough to make it playable. Maybe.

@jrsthethird: Sure, but we already have DRS, Scooze, Jitte, Batterskull, StP, and some people play Sword of Light and Shadow, granted it's more of a DGA thing. At what point does the redundancy become irrelevant?

Edit: If you care to play it there's also Siege Rhino.

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[Grantsheppard]

Hey all, I was recommended to post on this thread. I'm trying to put together a list - how does this look so far?


// Deck: legacy Junk (60)

// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

I'm not focusing too much on the sideboard for now, I know that will need some work.

[Bobmans]

Hey all, I was recommended to post on this thread. I'm trying to put together a list - how does this look so far?

I'm not focusing too much on the sideboard for now, I know that will need some work.


At first glance this is closer to NicFit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=918231&viewfull=1#post918231) then it is to the Rock. Or maybe a bit of both, not really sure.. But since this is the Rock thread i would suggest taking out Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy for 2 Thoughtseize (extra), 3 Tarmogoyf, 1/2 extra Liliana, 1/2 extra Abrupt Decay. This should give you some more aggressiveness. Or if you wanna stay on the NicFit plan, then at least include Sigarda.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So here's what I am going to be testing at my LGS's monthly legacy Win-a-box on the 6th.

4 DRS
2 Scooze
2 Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Liliana
2 Elspeth
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

4 Oath of Nissa
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

I don't have a board yet, but it will probably be close to:

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Bitterblossom
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
1 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Surgical Extraction

I'm not going to say it's better or even as good, but I want to get an idea for how playable Oath of Nissa is.


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[Diogo37]

Hey guys,
First of all sorry for my bad english

My list
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM
2 Siege Rhino

4 Decay
4 StP
1 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Seize
3 Hymn
3 Lingering Souls

3 Basic
2 Scrub
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

My sideaboard is always change (Enlightened Tutor Package or not)
Garruk Rentless, Zealous Persecution, Councils, Containment Priest, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Sword of Fire And Ice
I started playing the Abzan in the final of last year, I want do change the deck was I known in store and I decided choose this, i played 3 Tournaments with this list I made(Tournaments 10- 18 players )

I would like some suggestions to improve this list

Again sorry for my bad english (If it's to call it English)

Thanks guys

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I top 8'ed with the build. I beat storm, Reanimator, and Enchantress, lost to Infect, tied with Mardu Mentor, and in the quarterfinals I lost 2-1 vs. a UR control list with TNN. Finished 7th seed.

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[Megadeus]

How did Oath feel?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I liked it. With 4 in I got to pump my goyfs several times today by playing a second one, I got a guy from left field when I cast a Lili off of a Swamp, Plains and karakas. It made my land drops smooth, found me pressure or answers in the form of Liliana and Elspeth. I think it does some good things. Anyone else trying it?

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[Mirrislegend]

I'm interested in trying Oath. I've found that if I play too high of a density of instants and sorceries, I end up playing midrange but without the better topdecks in the late game. Here's what I'm brewing so far:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Siege Rhino

4 Oath of Nissa
1 Sylvan Library
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

22 Land

Between Oath and the lack of Bob, I'd probably like to wedge 1 Shriekmaw in there. But I'm already on 61 cards.

[tescrin]

I liked it. With 4 in I got to pump my goyfs several times today by playing a second one, I got a guy from left field when I cast a Lili off of a Swamp, Plains and karakas. It made my land drops smooth, found me pressure or answers in the form of Liliana and Elspeth. I think it does some good things. Anyone else trying it?

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I've been trying it out and have been enjoying it quite a bit. Smooths land draws and threats, does make Lili easier to cast but that hasn't really come up for me.


I'm currently on this 4c craziness and Oath (and list design) seems good enough to make the 4c work.

Warning: Crazy shit below. Still refining how it works. I found stoneforge + equips really screw up the way I play it, but that I still like/require the Etutor sideboard and prefer to run Swords as anti-burn and other good stuff.

-18-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Magus of the Moon

-10-
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil

-12-
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

-20 lands-
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

-Sideboard-
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Electrickery
1 Engineered Explosives or Electrickery
1 Cabal Therapy or Burn hate

EDIT: Btw, it's been super enjoyable against fair decks. I haven't gotten to test this 4c list against combo, but it was doing better against combo than fair lists when I was first starting it up. I think after I decide on the right dual-land composition it'll work quite well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

For what it's worth, I named my list "Uma Thurman". You know....keep you like an Oath...sheesh.

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[tescrin]

So I got to play aforementioned list to 2-1 last night. Beating Belcher (Thank you White!), Zombardment, and losing to D&T.

Belcher: E-Tutor is good. Lots of hate is good
G1 - I could've thoughtseized but assumed he was a fair deck. 16 gobbos.
G2 - I have E-Tutor and Canonist. He can't Gobbo or he dies, a lock builds around those and Revoker. I may decay an LED this game while he's navigating.
G3 - I have E-Tutor and Thoughtseize. He could've gobbo'd but opts to wait a turn or so for Charbelcher. I SEize the belcher, drop a canonist, tutor the Explosives, drop a Chalice.. etc..

Zombardment:
G1 - Double-Pfire lock while I wait for a threat. Magus is stuck in my hand all game due to PFire.
G2 - It's a bit grindy, but Blossom does its thing as our Liliana's lez out grinding on eachother and he's casting lingering souls. Containment priest beats for the win.

D&T: Games are a bit hazy.
G1 - I would've won off of Blossom but he had mangara in hand (Great.) We both draw garbagy for awhile and I lose the "no one doing anything interesting" fest.
G2 - I'm getting ported heavily and he's gotten a pair of wastelands. He lands early RiP and I have double Goyf at that point. I eventually draw #3, casting them as inevitable blockers. Holding me off black for a super long time due to RiP and Ports, he eventually lands all three equips, two of which I decay. This game went forever and due to having all duals I get stuck with magus in hand and no way to put beats to the other side of the board other than a DRS, who is competing with my Grove for damage.

-Notes-
* Being ported a bunch and Magus being dead in hand every game I've decided to switch to Mindcensor. Seems better for combo in practice, doesn't anti-combo with myself, gets around Port, good against fair decks in general (GSZ, SFM, fetches.) It could be argued to go to Tidehollow Sculler instead, but I like the color-lightness and Flash. I'd probably try Containment Priest before Sculler honestly.

* Mana was good all games, never missed my colors. Only had a single mulligan completely due to Oaths' reliability next to DRS. I'm putting a Warmth in the side for Burn.

* Only other thing to note is that I've realized that (at least locally) I should be siding out Goyf against D&T. They always RiP me and I honestly don't need him. They have to bring it in due to PFire and it's basically acting as a 3-for-1 in the game above. By moving to Mindcensor I have less to side out against D&T, allowing me to side out Goyfs/1-3 thoughtseize instead of Magus/2-3Thoughtseize. For completeness, list is below:


Punishing Junk:
-18-
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Aven Mindcensor

-10-
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil

-12-
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Thoughtseize

-20-
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp


-SB-
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Containment Priest
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Warmth

[tescrin]

More Punishing Junk brewing; list as above with Magus -> Mindcensor, went to 61 cards with an Aura Shards in the Main (wanted to try it, it's similar to decay in some MUs.) 2-1 again, beating Elves, Burn, and losing to RUG Delver?!

Sideboard: -1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Humility (unsure about this; I think Aura Shards here may be ok [or garbage])

MU 1 - Elves
* G1 - I mull to 6, he mulls to 5. I remove his first dude, Revoke H. Druid, drop Rabblemaster and beat him to death in a couple turns.
* G2 - He goes first, gets a T2 glimpse with nothing on board IIRC, gets 12+ elves. No's next turn for ~200 damage.
* G3 - I don't quite remember T1/T2. I think it was something into Containment Priest or Revoker on H Druid. T3 I get E.Plague on Elves for a quick 2-for-1 and follow it with Canonist. He's quickly locked out.

MU 2 - Burn
I know he's on burn so I wanted an aggressive hand.
* G1 - I have Thoughtseize, Goyf, Goyf, Rabblemaster. Neat! I Seize Eidolon and have a 3/4 or bigger Goyf T2. T3 I DRS->Goyf and begin attacking. I don't remember much else; I think he dies
* G2 - I get stuck under Vortex and we have a close game since I don't remove it but have Rabblemaster hitting for a bunch IIRC. I think he has a vexing devil at some point that trades with a goyf? It all melds together.
* G3 - He has a 3-creature hand and it doesn't work out. IIRC it's DRS -> Rabblemaster -> DRS + other stuff vs. his stuff.

MU 3 - RUG
* G1 - My hand is slightly shakey on lands and has triple Revoker. I should've mulled but .. I didnt? I had Plow and could cast everything, thought it'd work out lol. I think it ends with me desperately casting a bitterblossom; he stifles the token, i cast a second one, he bolts me and swings with a pair of Gooses.
* G2 - More what you'd expect it to be like. He has to FoW stuff while I land nasty things.
* G3 - A back and forth occurs but he had a normal goyf and a goose while I have 2/2's and a punishing fire. Sad times. What's worse? I stalled with a Goyf for a second but he had a dismember still from earlier I had forgotten about. Being 4/5 at the moment was annoying since I drew Canonist later.
SB: +1 Rip, +1 Tutor, +2 Canonist; -4 Revoker

Felt alright. Still figuring out what to do with the Mindcensor slot. He ate a Delver and had to be FoW'd in another game so they could still fetch lands (all on the stack.) That said, I think I could swap
-1 Aura shards, -3 Mindcensor
for
+1 QPM, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 GSZ

Giving me better storm game, more Enchant/Artifact outs (including more ways out from a CB lock), a Goyf-stall breaker and more virtual Goyfs/DRS for various occasions. I could probably swap a land or an Oath for an Arbor. The above could also let me drop a piece of sideboard hate or two as well; given that a lot of the sideboard interacts with Dredge/Storm/Elves.

[wizard_of_gore]

Guys, i started brewing rock deck list which is optimised mostly to beat new eldrazi menace, and doesn't loose potential against other archetypes. It utilizes most powerful ramp and land destruction options available in legacy. Most spells dodges COTV(1), and guys are bigger then theirs. Since mox diamonds are card disadvantage, full set of painful truths and 2 copies of sylvan library are here to replenish hand. This is sample decklist:

4x Deathrite shaman
4x Tarmogoyf (I'm even considering swaping this slot for +1x mox diamond and +3 siege rhino)
4x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Mox diamond
4x Abrupt decay
4x Painful truths
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Sylvan library
1x Life from the loam
3x Hymn to tourach

4x Wasteland
1x Horizon canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of ith
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Swamp
4x Verdant catacombs
4x Marsh flats

sb: Still wokring on it.

Are there anybody interested in brewing similar build? any opinion and advice are welcome.

[Seraphix]

Guys, i started brewing rock deck list which is optimised mostly to beat new eldrazi menace, and doesn't loose potential against other archetypes. It utilizes most powerful ramp and land destruction options available in legacy. Most spells dodges COTV(1), and guys are bigger then theirs. Since mox diamonds are card disadvantage, full set of painful truths and 2 copies of sylvan library are here to replenish hand. This is sample decklist:

4x Deathrite shaman
4x Tarmogoyf (I'm even considering swaping this slot for +1x mox diamond and +3 siege rhino)
4x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Mox diamond
4x Abrupt decay
4x Painful truths
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Sylvan library
1x Life from the loam
3x Hymn to tourach

4x Wasteland
1x Horizon canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of ith
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Swamp
4x Verdant catacombs
4x Marsh flats

sb: Still wokring on it.

Are there anybody interested in brewing similar build? any opinion and advice are welcome.

I concur that The Rock is a great place to be if the meta becomes overrun with Eldrazi.

The combination of versatile answers in Plow/Vindicate, discard, and men who can brawl with them like Knight and Tarmogoyf sounds like a good plan. I'd also want Loam in the 75 to Waste them back into the oblivion they came from.

[lavafrogg]

I concur that The Rock is a great place to be if the meta becomes overrun with Eldrazi.

The combination of versatile answers in Plow/Vindicate, discard, and men who can brawl with them like Knight and Tarmogoyf sounds like a good plan. I'd also want Loam in the 75 to Waste them back into the oblivion they came from.

Would SFM be a better option than goyf due to the lifegain of the equipment?

I always find goyf so blah in rock...

[wizard_of_gore]

Would SFM be a better option than goyf due to the lifegain of the equipment?

I always find goyf so blah in rock...

Spending two turns (turn 2 and 3) to setup batterskull is slow against eldrazi. Also, with turn#2 SFM you expose your equipment to be TKS-ed away. Goyf is 2 mana investment, fast, and he can be 4/5 or 5/6 very quickly.

@Seraphix
Yes, Rock is great place to begin brewing with eldrazi in mind. Having 8 mana accelerators, deck is constructed to have brutal and explosive openings. I'm even considering to max out on mox diamonds, and shaving 1 goyf maybe. I don't know if is this a smart move, but opening with land/mox diamond/deathrite shaman proceeding with mix of vindicate/painful truths/wasteland/sylvan library/hymn to tourach/life from the loam still on turn 1/2 can leave any deck behind. Of course, it's not point spending whole hand on ramp turn 1/2 and then stare at empty hand with 0 business. But being able to play early vindicate/wasteland/hymn to tourach, cripple their mana and resources, and not loosing tempo IS business.

[tescrin]

Would SFM be a better option than goyf due to the lifegain of the equipment?

I always find goyf so blah in rock...

I've been in the opposite place. I've been getting more and more aggro so I can close matches out. It's been a lot less about mediocre card advantage and more about just winning on board quickly. It's been liberating to be able to threaten T4 wins rather than threaten maybe attaching a thing to a dude and OH SHIT, I lost 6 mana to a 1-mana spell! I get she's good; but I've found it's been going a lot better without it.


Since I'm posting; played to a 2-2 the other day :( :

MU1 - ANT 0-2
G1 - He's on a mix of decks, so I didn't know what he was on. I keep a stable but fair hand with Thoughtseize. I TS and take his only acceleration. I have Lili and Rabble, I choose rabble (but it wouldn't matter) as he finds several pieces of accel this turn (T3) and he kills me.
G2 - I keep a mediocre hand IMO; with natural Teeg -> Liliana, but no T1 plays. Teeg gets disfigured and he goes off. I would've preferred to mull to two cards (I side in 10; 3 tutor, 2 canonist, 1 chalice, 1 cage, 1 rip, 1 EE, 1 Plague; swapping most of the removal.)

MU2 - Miracles 2-1
G1 - I put a load of pressure on him with Revoker, Liliana, and others, and start casting 3-drops through Counterbalance. Rabble is the finisher as I swing for 9.
G2 - Long drawn out game where I kill 2 Jaces, 2 Mentors, a Counterbalance, get my Chalice on 1 teared, get my Bitterblossom Weared (snapcaster), and I start drawing 2-drop dudes while playing PFire tricks to keep him wasting mana. I eventually get locked with Jace + Mentor + CB + Top. Our hero dies a sad death. I have Aura Shards in play but since I didn't have Arbor and I didn't have a 3-drop; I couldn't land something.
G3 - I drop Revoker, DRS, and Goyf (who is a 6/7.) I swing for 9 before I get RiPed. I continue swinging for 3 as he defends himself from Rabblemaster

MU3 - Lands 0-2
G1 - I fetch basics but get locked under Exploration, double port, and call the game when he has enough mana to keep me locked while doing other things. I play the early game because I have a 5/6 goyf; but after swinging twice he finds a Maze; then another Maze, etc..
G2 - He has the nuts; and it's sad. I start with nothing; he Diamond->something. I Revoke the diamond. He does something irrelevant (second grove?) and I canonist to speed up the clock. Still nothing interesting. I now cast chalice on 2 (blocking Loam, Pfire, and most other things I'd care about.) I hold bridge waiting for him to try Depths. He does, I bridge while swinging for 4 some more. He has the grip in hand and wins. Grumble. Chalice on 2 and E-Bridge + Lili in hand felt pretty good; but without plow I couldn't interact with the token.

MU4 - Zombardment 2-1
G1 - He gets double lingering souls and a lot of removal (we're both at 25ish mid game.) I can't Pfire 8 dude that fast.
G2 & G3 - Goyfs do all the heavy lifting while Bitterblossom and similar take the removal. GSZ -> Goyf felt good.

Not a lot to say. Am figuring out what I'll do about Lands and adding an Arbor to the main; probably in place of an Oath, but maybe in place of a Lily.

[T-101]

Guys, i started brewing rock deck list which is optimised mostly to beat new eldrazi menace, and doesn't loose potential against other archetypes. It utilizes most powerful ramp and land destruction options available in legacy. Most spells dodges COTV(1), and guys are bigger then theirs. Since mox diamonds are card disadvantage, full set of painful truths and 2 copies of sylvan library are here to replenish hand. This is sample decklist:

4x Deathrite shaman
4x Tarmogoyf (I'm even considering swaping this slot for +1x mox diamond and +3 siege rhino)
4x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Mox diamond
4x Abrupt decay
4x Painful truths
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Sylvan library
1x Life from the loam
3x Hymn to tourach

4x Wasteland
1x Horizon canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of ith
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Swamp
4x Verdant catacombs
4x Marsh flats

sb: Still wokring on it.

Are there anybody interested in brewing similar build? any opinion and advice are welcome.

That looks pretty cool. Eldrazi does get crushed by land hate. 2x Wasteland usually shuts the door on 'em. We don't get Brainstorm to find more, but we can just run more land hate, and Knight can help Waste them.

I'm surprised to see no Sink Hole. Not sure what I'd take out for it, but it seems like it would fit right in here. Maybe shave 1x Truths, 3x Hymn to Tourach for them?

[wizard_of_gore]

That looks pretty cool. Eldrazi does get crushed by land hate. 2x Wasteland usually shuts the door on 'em. We don't get Brainstorm to find more, but we can just run more land hate, and Knight can help Waste them.

I'm surprised to see no Sink Hole. Not sure what I'd take out for it, but it seems like it would fit right in here. Maybe shave 1x Truths, 3x Hymn to Tourach for them?

Sinkhole is very linear, and is bad topdeck in mid/late game, well so is hymn to tourach. But hymn is 2for1, and vindicate is never bad topdeck. I could see 1x sinkhole (as a 5th vindicate) instead of one copy of painful truths, but again, i want to be loaded with cards which refresh my hand. For sideboard i'm considering 4x chalice of the void for combo matchups (swaping with STP probably g2 and g3).

[Echelon]

I concur that The Rock is a great place to be if the meta becomes overrun with Eldrazi.

The combination of versatile answers in Plow/Vindicate, discard, and men who can brawl with them like Knight and Tarmogoyf sounds like a good plan. I'd also want Loam in the 75 to Waste them back into the oblivion they came from.


Spending two turns (turn 2 and 3) to setup batterskull is slow against eldrazi. Also, with turn#2 SFM you expose your equipment to be TKS-ed away. Goyf is 2 mana investment, fast, and he can be 4/5 or 5/6 very quickly.

@Seraphix
Yes, Rock is great place to begin brewing with eldrazi in mind. Having 8 mana accelerators, deck is constructed to have brutal and explosive openings. I'm even considering to max out on mox diamonds, and shaving 1 goyf maybe. I don't know if is this a smart move, but opening with land/mox diamond/deathrite shaman proceeding with mix of vindicate/painful truths/wasteland/sylvan library/hymn to tourach/life from the loam still on turn 1/2 can leave any deck behind. Of course, it's not point spending whole hand on ramp turn 1/2 and then stare at empty hand with 0 business. But being able to play early vindicate/wasteland/hymn to tourach, cripple their mana and resources, and not loosing tempo IS business.

Isn't what you're suggesting basically just a worse version of Nic Fit..? The difference with Nic Fit being that it either disrupts the opponent while ramping or that it just ramps to 5 mana on turn 2 at the cost of a single card.

[wizard_of_gore]

Isn't what you're suggesting basically just a worse version of Nic Fit..? The difference with Nic Fit being that it either disrupts the opponent while ramping or that it just ramps to 5 mana on turn 2 at the cost of a single card.

Point is to have very good land disruption against eldrazi decks, and not loosing efficiency against other decks. Idea of this deck is far away of nic fit, since I'm nic fit player too.

[Echelon]

Point is to have very good land disruption against eldrazi decks, and not loosing efficiency against other decks. Idea of this deck is far away of nic fit, since I'm nic fit player too.

Yeah... Good luck with that on the draw. They cast a T2 TKS (probably taking the answer you have to it from from hand) after which you start being cute with Sinkhole..?

Or you blow through your entire hand on T1/T2 after which they use the rest of their hand to run you over..?

[Tokugawa]

Is Sinkhole really a playable card, in today's Legacy?

Even pox decks have begun to cut it...

[wizard_of_gore]

Yeah... Good luck with that on the draw. They cast a T2 TKS (probably taking the answer you have to it from from hand) after which you start being cute with Sinkhole..?

Or you blow through your entire hand on T1/T2 after which they use the rest of their hand to run you over..?

It's not really necessary to empty your hand to ramp like crazy if you see that you won't be able to abuse your mana properly. Smart playing is above all :confused:. TKS in turn 2 blows almost any deck in format ( this deck is no exception to), but again, at least this deck is constructed that turn 2 doesn't happen to them, while you have room to play your things.


Is Sinkhole really a playable card, in today's Legacy?

Even pox decks have begun to cut it...

Of corse not, neither i'm considering it.

[Bobmans]

3 Hymn + 4 Goyf + 4 Wasteland is the shit against Eldrazi. With 4 AD and 4 Swords.
1 Vindicate is nice, but so are 1 Maelstrom Pulse and 1 Toxic Deluge.
4 DRS and 4 KotR are also pretty decend.
Filler with 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Liliana. Perhaps 2 Sylvan Library. 1 Loam, 2 GSZ and 1 Scooze, 1 Teeg and 1 Qasali?
38 non land cards here. Only missing P.Truths and Mox here.
Utility lands being 3/4 Wasteland, 1 Canopy, 1 Karakas, Maze? Treetop?

Edit; rough sketch here, had to hurry to het to work.