[Deck] The Rock

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's not Swords to Plowshares.

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[lavafrogg]

It's not Swords to Plowshares.

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Sorry. Let me rephrase,

"With the new one mana black instant that has a very small drawback, very similar to a one mana white instant that also has a small drawback, is there still a reason to play white in the deck?"

Better?

[CptHaddock]

Sorry. Let me rephrase,

"With the new one mana black instant that has a very small drawback, very similar to a one mana white instant that also has a small drawback, is there still a reason to play white in the deck?"

Better?

Just ignore him...

Funny enough I was thinking the same thing earlier this week, I think a slight white splash would be okay since Teeg and Canonist are such haymakers in the combo matchups. I'm not really sure what the best starting point is. My initial thought was something close to Caleb's Explorer Rock (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-legacy-nic-fit/) build from a few years back since it allows you to go over the top of most fair decks but at the same time I really don't want to go down the rabbit hole that is nic fit. Were you thinking of a more streamlined lower to the ground list like traditional Rock decks e.g. 4 drs, 4 goyf, etc?

[Megadeus]

The upside to push over swords is the lack of life gain, so I personally like the thought of it being in a more aggressive deck. Whatever that may mean for BGw, I don't know.

[lavafrogg]

Just ignore him...

Funny enough I was thinking the same thing earlier this week, I think a slight white splash would be okay since Teeg and Canonist are such haymakers in the combo matchups. I'm not really sure what the best starting point is. My initial thought was something close to Caleb's Explorer Rock (http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-legacy-nic-fit/) build from a few years back since it allows you to go over the top of most fair decks but at the same time I really don't want to go down the rabbit hole that is nic fit. Were you thinking of a more streamlined lower to the ground list like traditional Rock decks e.g. 4 drs, 4 goyf, etc?

I have been looking at BG Ecplorer lists but I feel that DRS/Goyf/Confidant are the reason to play "Rock" lists. Sylvan Library, sdematts favorite Rock card, is also a super beating against the format.

Currently I have a slower 3 Witness/3 Unearth engine for testing but we have so many options to round out the deck. Green Sun's Zenith, my favorite rock card, is an option as is Crop Rotation or any number of GB cards.

As far as the mana costs of the list, I always love the discard plus goyfs plan as an option against combo.

[CptHaddock]

I have been looking at BG Ecplorer lists but I feel that DRS/Goyf/Confidant are the reason to play "Rock" lists. Sylvan Library, sdematts favorite Rock card, is also a super beating against the format.

Currently I have a slower 3 Witness/3 Unearth engine for testing but we have so many options to round out the deck. Green Sun's Zenith, my favorite rock card, is an option as is Crop Rotation or any number of GB cards.

As far as the mana costs of the list, I always love the discard plus goyfs plan as an option against combo.

That's fair. Now you have me intrigued, I think I want to play something like this. I'll try to flesh it out more this weekend and take it to the locals next week. Will get back to you then.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness/Renegade Rallier (Although this card puts us slightly more into white)
1 Late Game Evasive Beater?

4 Thoughtseize/Inquisiton
4 Hymn of Tourach
2 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths/Abzan Charm (More into white again but this card is so sweet)

3 Liliana of the Veil

Where's Mr. Safety when you need him? :eyebrow:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sorry. Let me rephrase,

"With the new one mana black instant that has a very small drawback, very similar to a one mana white instant that also has a small drawback, is there still a reason to play white in the deck?"

Better?
I wasn't being a jerk, I meant that it's a bigger drawback than you are giving it credit for. Also, sfm is pretty important imo for this deck.

But, ya know,


Just ignore him...


That's what these forums are for: asking questions and then being an asshole when someone gives you an answer, right?

[Hmmm_Really?]

That's what these forums are for: asking questions and then being an asshole when someone gives you an answer, right?

+1 for this. I'm also of the opinion that Fatal Push is not an adequate replacement for StP. If you need to splash white for Karakas and/or Charm and/or Teeg then why not StP instead? Marit and other big beasties are things.

[Megadeus]

I agree though. White is pretty important for this deck. SFM making your shitty dudes into not shitty dudes is important often. Hate bears, lingering souls. Also don't forget that push doesn't kill Marit Lage. Rallier is also good. There's just a lot of things that white beings that would be tough to drop.

[CptHaddock]

I wasn't being a jerk, I meant that it's a bigger drawback than you are giving it credit for. Also, sfm is pretty important imo for this deck.

But, ya know,



That's what these forums are for: asking questions and then being an asshole when someone gives you an answer, right?

Would it really have been hard to say that in the first place about push? I think most people here realize that push is not literally swords to plowshares. I do suppose I was the being an asshole by telling someone to ignore your condescending comment so I apologize. :rolleyes:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I didn't realize you fellows couldn't see right from the start how inferior it really is compared to StP. Condescending apology accepted.

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[lavafrogg]

I didn't realize you fellows couldn't see right from the start how inferior it really is compared to StP. Condescending apology accepted.

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Come on guys, this is the internet. Grow thicker skins and stop apologizing for things that no one did wrong.

Bee gave a response that was short and easily interpreted as negative, I didn't care. Now let's move on.

Bee- I understand that Fatal Push is inferior to swords to plowshare, it is obviously not as good as the best removal spell ever printed. That being said, Push kills almost every creature in the format and has the advantage of being on color.

With this being my favorite list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

You would lose 3 swords, 3 stone forge mystic, lingering souls and painful truths by cutting white. Out of the board gaddock teeg and zealous persecution are lost.

Now back to my question, if we replace Swords for Push what other cards cannot be similarly replaced in a straight GB list. He advantages of a stable Two color mana base are huge as you greatly reduce your chances for color screw and wasteland/blood moon issues with increased basics.

With the swords for push trade you would need to sideboard sacrifice effects(or dismember) if you plan on playing decks with fatties and you would lose points against reanimator and eldrazi game one. Going back to my question, is swords too important and does our deck hinge on having the one mana white spell available?

Also,

Since I asked the question, here is a first draft list:

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness

Discard(6)
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(6)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

Planeswalkers(4)
3 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(22)
3 Swamps
3 Forests
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

I like the 4x Wastelands and the 1 loam to secure the wastelock and to break the discard with liliana in longer games, I like that it has a fighting chance against combo with thoughtsieze into hymn into Lilly.

Lilliana helps with the removal as she can hopefully edict away anything too big to push/decay.

With the extra wiggle room in the mana base I added the two towers endgame to play off of the loam and the witness as a Zenith target. Overall I feel like the deck flows together really nicely and I will most likely try it out next week at my local.

Thoughts?

[somethingdotdotdot]

I honestly believe giving up white is a mistake. Pretty much all of the cards you listed: sfm, lingering souls, painful truths, and gaddock teeg and a few other sb cards like containment priest, ethersworn canonist are game winning card advantage/virtual card advantage cards. I dont see anything in GB that can replace that suite. Furthermore, this deck has far from the greediest manabase in legacy. Not sure why a generally inferior removal card would justify removing the better removal card+ a whole suite of card advantage pieces.

[lavafrogg]

On the mana base: three colors plus wastelands is a greedy manabase. It might not be the greediest, but I have lost my fair share of games over the years to watseland/port/stifle/blood moon all of which can show up on any given day.

Also, being able to easily play 4 wastelands ourselves is just free wins on the cake.

What do you actually gain from the white cards?

Hate bears are not that effective against combo seeing how we don't play blue, so you are gaining minimal percentage points with canonist/priest. Lingering souls can be replaced with Bitterblossom if we really want tokens, but planes walkers do the same thing, which is pressure control opponents and stall the ground.

Gaddock teeg can be ran with 4 GSZ and deathrite to hard cast if needed.

Truths is good, but other card advantage spells exist.

Lastly is stone forge mystic, if equipment is so important running multiple pieces is an option. What matchups do you absolutely need a SFM 100% of the time?

[Richard Cheese]

On the mana base: three colors plus wastelands is a greedy manabase. It might not be the greediest, but I have lost my fair share of games over the years to watseland/port/stifle/blood moon all of which can show up on any given day.

Also, being able to easily play 4 wastelands ourselves is just free wins on the cake.

What do you actually gain from the white cards?

Hate bears are not that effective against combo seeing how we don't play blue, so you are gaining minimal percentage points with canonist/priest. Lingering souls can be replaced with Bitterblossom if we really want tokens, but planes walkers do the same thing, which is pressure control opponents and stall the ground.

Gaddock teeg can be ran with 4 GSZ and deathrite to hard cast if needed.

Truths is good, but other card advantage spells exist.

Lastly is stone forge mystic, if equipment is so important running multiple pieces is an option. What matchups do you absolutely need a SFM 100% of the time?

Reasons to run White:

StP
Thalia
Teeg
Canonist
Priest
Knight
Rhino
Pridemage
SFM
New Gideon?
Karakas

I honestly think you could make a better case for dropping black, because DRS is castable with only Green, and Decay is pretty splashable, like 1-2 lands plus DRS. Also historically, Maverick has had much greater success and much more recently than anything I can think of that was straight BG.

[somethingdotdotdot]

On the mana base: three colors plus wastelands is a greedy manabase. It might not be the greediest, but I have lost my fair share of games over the years to watseland/port/stifle/blood moon all of which can show up on any given day.

Also, being able to easily play 4 wastelands ourselves is just free wins on the cake.

The manbase stability seems to be the only gain by dropping white. I dont feel that it justifies the costs at all.

What do you actually gain from the white cards?

Hate bears are not that effective against combo seeing how we don't play blue, so you are gaining minimal percentage points with canonist/priest.
I disagree with this statement whole heartedly. It may be true that since the deck doesn't run as many hate bears as other decks (dnt/maverick), you're not as likely to see them in a given game compared to a blue deck; however, whenever one does hit the field, it requires the combo player to increase their combo by 1 (ie, they now require an answer card in addition to their combo).

Lingering souls can be replaced with Bitterblossom if we really want tokens, but planes walkers do the same thing, which is pressure control opponents and stall the ground.
Both walkers and bitterblossom have similarities with souls, but both are more polarized in what they can do. Bitterblossom applies constant pressure, but is pretty mediocre/terrible for defense since the tokens come after a turn and costs life. Walkers that produce tokens typically cost 4+ mana, making them extremely weak vs aggressive strategies. Essentially, both bitterblossom/walkers are better for applying pressure than for going on defense; souls is equally good on both. Flashback also makes it stronger vs daze/discard.

Gaddock teeg can be ran with 4 GSZ and deathrite to hard cast if needed.
If this is the case, why wouldn't you at least add 1-2 white sources to fetch to cast him? You really don't need to be playing 5-6 basics in a deck that only really needs like 4 mana total.

Truths is good, but other card advantage spells exist.
And most of them for this deck has tended to be white.

Lastly is stone forge mystic, if equipment is so important running multiple pieces is an option. What matchups do you absolutely need a SFM 100% of the time?
It's not just about running more equipment, because you can't feasibly run 5-6 pieces. The equipment also tend to be better/worse depending on the matchup. Stoneforge gives you selection and reduces terrible draws where you just get 2x jittes or something. Matchups where you want (because need is too strong a word) is pretty much every grindy creature-based matchup or matchup where you are racing (burn, death and taxes, maverick, elves, shardless, eldrazi, tnn-decks, and probably a lot of others i'm not thinking about).

I think you can make a much stronger case for dropping green cards (but i still wouldn't omit it) since goyf has seen much better days.

[sdematt]

Dropping any colour drops many advantages in each of them. Even dedicted two colour decks like Maverick, Deadguy, and Eva have all evolved into XY/z decks because the splash offers enough gain over manabase instability, esp. With the advent of DRS.

I think if you're worried about stability, run more GSZ, a Loam, more basics, and 4 DRS. You could even go back to Knight like my 2012 list, but I feel Souls and Sigarda and better positioned.

[lavafrogg]

Dropping any colour drops many advantages in each of them. Even dedicted two colour decks like Maverick, Deadguy, and Eva have all evolved into XY/z decks because the splash offers enough gain over manabase instability, esp. With the advent of DRS.

I think if you're worried about stability, run more GSZ, a Loam, more basics, and 4 DRS. You could even go back to Knight like my 2012 list, but I feel Souls and Sigarda and better positioned.

In an ideal world, we would all run single color mana bases and would be able to do everything we ever would want to do and part of the strength of many of the top decks in legacy are solid 1-2 color mana bases.

Maverick has devolved into the three color lists that we now know partially due to the danger of cool things, imo the current best maverick build is straight GW and takes advantage of both Thalia's, stoneforge and knight. On our side of the coin, I think the best rock deck will be straight GB with Bob, Goyf and DRS as the core, and we go from there.

I do not feel stoneforge and souls are 100% must haves and if we can drop swords for the new push, hen white is suspect.

I feel very strongly about the power level of Liliana, I know Matt doesn't feel the same way, and the best card to help feed liliana is going to be life from the loam(and dark confidant).

Obviously souls and sigarda are targeted towards miracles, and souls plus equipment... and double teeg, and if we can up the Liliana count, the must kill count, and even include another planeswalker, we could become a miracles worst matchup.

But I know this is the source, I will build and test a list and hopefully discuss later with anyone who wants to.

[Megadeus]

In an ideal world, we would all run single color mana bases and would be able to do everything we ever would want to do and part of the strength of many of the top decks in legacy are solid 1-2 color mana bases.

Maverick has devolved into the three color lists that we now know partially due to the danger of cool things, imo the current best maverick build is straight GW and takes advantage of both Thalia's, stoneforge and knight. On our side of the coin, I think the best rock deck will be straight GB with Bob, Goyf and DRS as the core, and we go from there.

I do not feel stoneforge and souls are 100% must haves and if we can drop swords for the new push, hen white is suspect.

I feel very strongly about the power level of Liliana, I know Matt doesn't feel the same way, and the best card to help feed liliana is going to be life from the loam(and dark confidant).

Obviously souls and sigarda are targeted towards miracles, and souls plus equipment... and double teeg, and if we can up the Liliana count, the must kill count, and even include another planeswalker, we could become a miracles worst matchup.

But I know this is the source, I will build and test a list and hopefully discuss later with anyone who wants to.
Maverick is three colors because decay and deathrite are needed in the meta. And black sideboard options are basically necessary to be competitive. Dropping white in this deck makes the mana slightly better and that's really it. But you lose a lot more than you gain. You lose sfm which helps make all of your shitty dudes into slightly less shitty dudes. Souls and truths are the cards advantage needed to beat miracles and BUG, and swords is just the best removal spell ever printed. Push is something for non white decks more than anything, but you probably never want the first push before the fourth swords, and after that you want decay anyway

[lavafrogg]

Maverick is three colors because decay and deathrite are needed in the meta. And black sideboard options are basically necessary to be competitive. Dropping white in this deck makes the mana slightly better and that's really it. But you lose a lot more than you gain. You lose sfm which helps make all of your shitty dudes into slightly less shitty dudes. Souls and truths are the cards advantage needed to beat miracles and BUG, and swords is just the best removal spell ever printed. Push is something for non white decks more than anything, but you probably never want the first push before the fourth swords, and after that you want decay anyway

I am going to start testing and working on GB, I will let you know if I can come up with anything.

I would just like to note that Stone forge, souls, swords and Truths are good cards... but we are still a tier two deck that cannot beat top decks consistently.

I feel like we are underestimating that value of a stable mana base in today's legacy.

edit: also for the record, I have played swords to plowshares in every deck since GUw thresh and have been a huge advocate for BGw Rock for years. I love Stoneforge, Teeg, Souls and Swords.

[damionblackgear]

Full circle I see. I'm interested if you go more the agro route the deck has become or back to the more controlling style the deck was designed as.

It might help to look at the archives to see how they did it. Granted it was a Nic Fit deck then. The current builds would be closer to the archived RockGuy decks. I'll try to remember to come back and update this with links later.

Edit - Older Rock Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?728-Deck-The-Rock-Adapted-to-Legacy) and another (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11737-).

[sdematt]

I think a straight GB Suicide list starts with 4 Goyf, 4 DRS, 4 Confidant, 4 Negator... ;)

But srsly.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
2 Tombstalker
4 Negator

4 TS
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Decay
4 Fatal Push
3 Sylvan Library

Etc.

God, I want to play Negator. But Bolt.... :/

[lavafrogg]

I think a straight GB Suicide list starts with 4 Goyf, 4 DRS, 4 Confidant, 4 Negator... ;)

But srsly.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
2 Tombstalker
4 Negator

4 TS
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Decay
4 Fatal Push
3 Sylvan Library

Etc.

God, I want to play Negator. But Bolt.... :/

Suicide?!? Eva Green?!? Awesome.

No love for Dark Ritual or Gurmag Angler?

[Hmmm_Really?]

I think a straight GB Suicide list starts with 4 Goyf, 4 DRS, 4 Confidant, 4 Negator... ;)

But srsly.

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
2 Tombstalker
4 Negator

4 TS
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Decay
4 Fatal Push
3 Sylvan Library

Etc.

God, I want to play Negator. But Bolt.... :/


Abyssal Persecutor, instead of Phyrexian Negator, with Cabal Therapy, Fatal Push, Deed and Phyrexan Tower? But surely that's been tried before with Innocent Blood, hasn't it?

[lavafrogg]

Okay,

Went 4-0 tonight at a weekly, which doesn't say much... but is better than 0-4.

New draft to the much hated GB Rock list, the first draft was further up the page.

I started with the best GB library manipulation/card advantage engine I could find and went from there.

Creatures(16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Unearth

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
3 Choke

I beat Miracles round one 2-0. round two was Merfolk 2-0, Nic Fit 2-1 and Death and Taxes 2-1.

For the most part I was just the deck with all of the removal... i.e. against Merfolk and Death and Taxes.

The Miracle player had no idea what I was going to do the whole game and countered 2 Dark Confidants and 1 Sylvan Library before the second Library stuck to drown him game one. Game two I cast the same Lost legacy 3 times to strip him of win cons(Jace, Entreant, Mentor) for the scoop.

My losses were to a DnT where I drew no win conditions the entire game(goyf) and a game to Nic Fit where he went over the top, swords would have been nice...

Obviously SFM would have been awesome to help against Dnt and swords would have been nice against Nic Fits large dudes, but overall I did not feel like I needed to have the splash. The mana base felt awesome and Eternal Witness is jjust a really dumb card. Therapy-Witness-Therapy-Unearth-Therapy-Therapy also happened over the course of several turns against the Nic Fit player to ensure he never had gas.

Unearth was super fun but I could see cutting 1, Life from the Loam was not stellar since I dropped the Lilliana count to 1, Thoughtsieze was also pretty bad. I never drew the Garruk but wanted to several times throughout the night.

Anyone who is interested, what do you think?

p.s. I should be able to play again monday/tuesday.

[kinda]

Good work! How has lost legacy been? I'm considering them.

[lavafrogg]

Good work! How has lost legacy been? I'm considering them.

Lost legacy was fun, I could see it getting play against decks where we have no real way to stop their inevitably like the jace from Miracles or Loam from Lands.

I am going to try -3 Eternal Witness -3 Unearth, +3 Tireless Tracker +3 Noxious Revival to hopefully get a little more muscle without losing the recursion.

[Asthereal]

(interesting take on Junk)
Good work! Couple of questions:
1. Why not more Liliana? Do you feel you don't need her?
Could be me, but I'd list at least three before starting to actually think about what I would want in such a list.

2. Why no Green Sun's Zenith?
Could be good to add more beef. It makes Arbor better, and you could add a Reclamation Sage to complete the toolbox.

3. Have you considered a second Garruk Relentless?
You mentioned never drawing him, but wanting to draw him on occasion. A second seems good against most of the meta right now.

[CptHaddock]

@lavafrogg

Were the 21 lands enough? I tried something similar and always felt like I didn't have enough lands when I didn't get a loam online. My landbase was also a little crappier because I was splashing teeg in the board. I played a few games on Cocatrice (yes I know) and the deck felt pretty good. Most fair matchups you can usually just overload on removal and win the game because your opponents never have anything on the board. You're still a complete dog in the combo matchups but i'm not really sure what to do about that without splashing another color. Ended up getting crushed by sneak and show.

Anyways I think i'm going to go towards a straight GB, more loam oriented build with my late game threat being a combination of goyf + tireless tracker. I'm going to try this a list like the one below at my locals. Not 100% on the manabase.

1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
2 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Leyline of the Void

[lavafrogg]

Good work! Couple of questions:
1. Why not more Liliana? Do you feel you don't need her?
Could be me, but I'd list at least three before starting to actually think about what I would want in such a list.

2. Why no Green Sun's Zenith?
Could be good to add more beef. It makes Arbor better, and you could add a Reclamation Sage to complete the toolbox.

3. Have you considered a second Garruk Relentless?
You mentioned never drawing him, but wanting to draw him on occasion. A second seems good against most of the meta right now.

I was responding this but then the Super Bowl suddenly became a game again.

Thanks for the comments!

1. Why not more Liliana?
A big problem that I have with GB decks, and most tier 2 decks in general, is that they durdle too hard. I love Liliana but my problem is with the cards that we can use to break the Liliana symmetry. We need a usable GB utility card that can make Liliana not symmetrical and I think that Life from the Loam is just durdles too hard in this current list. I think the right number might be 2 when it is all said and done because I think she is a house.

2. Why no Green Sun's Zenith?
GSZ is another card that I absolutely love, especially as a 4 of. When I build traditional Junk I start with 4 DRS and 4 GSZ and go from there. With this deck as a more old school "Rock" list, I felt card advantage is more important than card selection so I went with the full set of Bobs and the triple Sylvan Library. Also, I am valuing the power of Goyf + Discard in the combo match ups.

3. Have you considered a second Garruk Relentless?
No. I think he is a good option in a lot of match ups but as a 4 drop that grinds I don't think seeing multiples is something that we want.


@lavafrogg

Were the 21 lands enough? I tried something similar and always felt like I didn't have enough lands when I didn't get a loam online. My landbase was also a little crappier because I was splashing teeg in the board. I played a few games on Cocatrice (yes I know) and the deck felt pretty good. Most fair matchups you can usually just overload on removal and win the game because your opponents never have anything on the board. You're still a complete dog in the combo matchups but i'm not really sure what to do about that without splashing another color. Ended up getting crushed by sneak and show.

Anyways I think i'm going to go towards a straight GB, more loam oriented build with my late game threat being a combination of goyf + tireless tracker. I'm going to try this a list like the one below at my locals. Not 100% on the manabase.

1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
2 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Leyline of the Void

In a similar vein to the cards above, I love Life from the Loam but I find that the deck just does nothing too much of the time. In my opinion, your list suffers from the danger of cool things. I promise you that all of the cards in your list sit in a box on my desk and I cycle through all of them when I am deck building. My personal problem with the GB Zenith decks is that they do not have Knight to search up as a end all be all target. Maybe Tracker is a replacement, but I do not know for sure at this point.

That being said, I love your list but I feel that is too graveyard dependent and if you are going to be that yard based, you might as well play GB Depths for the sweet combo finish. We are both in a similar place though, please let me know if you make any progress.

This is where I am at after some gauntlet testing with friends tonight.

Creatures(16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Noxious Revival

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
3 Choke

The Revivals are really fun and the Tracker is a great control win con as he draws cards and gets large. The plan of the deck is to get control through discard and removal and then establish a card advantage engine to win the game. Sometimes you just win with Goyfs, which is fun.

21 lands is enough for me as I am not looking to Loam every turn or discard lands to diamond/Lilly constantly.

I am having trouble with the last 3 cards in the list, he revivals, and my 2 utility lands.

[Zombie]

Why do you pack a Dryad Arbor in what is, as far as I can see, a Zenith-free deck?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

There are 7 green fetches in the list. I've been satisfied with the idea in my build thus far. Yes, Zenith makes it better. No, it's not an absolute requirement for Arbor to be playable.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[lavafrogg]

There are 7 green fetches in the list. I've been satisfied with the idea in my build thus far. Yes, Zenith makes it better. No, it's not an absolute requirement for Arbor to be playable.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

The value you can get with the single Arbor is pretty large while the cost is extremely low. Being able to flashback cabal therapy or chump block with a get bland is pretty huge. If you ever get to counter an edict effect, which I have never got to do, I think you just win the game on the spot.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's a pretty big deal to be able to tutor a body up eot after they board wipe when you have equipment on board, especially since they *never* see it coming.

Having said all this, 1x GSZ is generally a pretty awesome inclusion in a deck like this for many reasons. If you have room, at least consider it if you run arbor.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[lavafrogg]

It's a pretty big deal to be able to tutor a body up eot after they board wipe when you have equipment on board, especially since they *never* see it coming.

Having said all this, 1x GSZ is generally a pretty awesome inclusion in a deck like this for many reasons. If you have room, at least consider it if you run arbor.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Currently I am not playing any equipment and with my 3 slots I could go 2x GSX and a Scooze but currently I do not have a GSZ package. I am going for the Dark Confidant + Sylvan Library CA plan, and am trying to find a suitable utility package.

Instead of a GSZ package, could I do 1-3 Crop Rotations and some utility lands? Crop rotation would combo well with tracker and Loam....

[Asthereal]

Thanks for the comments!

1. Why not more Liliana?
A big problem that I have with GB decks, and most tier 2 decks in general, is that they durdle too hard. I love Liliana but my problem is with the cards that we can use to break the Liliana symmetry. We need a usable GB utility card that can make Liliana not symmetrical and I think that Life from the Loam is just durdles too hard in this current list. I think the right number might be 2 when it is all said and done because I think she is a house.

2. Why no Green Sun's Zenith?
GSZ is another card that I absolutely love, especially as a 4 of. When I build traditional Junk I start with 4 DRS and 4 GSZ and go from there. With this deck as a more old school "Rock" list, I felt card advantage is more important than card selection so I went with the full set of Bobs and the triple Sylvan Library. Also, I am valuing the power of Goyf + Discard in the combo match ups.

3. Have you considered a second Garruk Relentless?
No. I think he is a good option in a lot of match ups but as a 4 drop that grinds I don't think seeing multiples is something that we want.
1. I never played anything to break the Liliana symmetry. I think she's good enough without it, especially against fait creature decks. On an empty board, she just dominates.

2. Perhaps you could replace the Unearths and maybe one or two Eternal Witness with Zeniths. Zenith for Witness still gives you the recursion and card advantage you want, but adds flexibility and makes Dryad Arbor better.
You mentioned wanting to try Noxious Revival, but that's card disadvantage, so I'd recommend Zenith-Witness over that.

3. That's fair. Garruk isn't good in multiples. You won't draw that many of you play only two, but it will come up eventually. Besides, if you add Zenith, the deck is already pretty stacked. A quick draft got me to a list like this:

1 Arbor
4 Deathrite
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage /16

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana
1 Garruk Relentless /23

4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland /21

I've left out the Phyrexian Tower, because I doubt it'll add enough to compensate for the fact that it only produces colourless mana. For the discard package I am tempted to remove the Therapies and go for a fourth Hymn and a third Lily.

[lavafrogg]

1. I never played anything to break the Liliana symmetry. I think she's good enough without it, especially against fait creature decks. On an empty board, she just dominates.

2. Perhaps you could replace the Unearths and maybe one or two Eternal Witness with Zeniths. Zenith for Witness still gives you the recursion and card advantage you want, but adds flexibility and makes Dryad Arbor better.
You mentioned wanting to try Noxious Revival, but that's card disadvantage, so I'd recommend Zenith-Witness over that.

3. That's fair. Garruk isn't good in multiples. You won't draw that many of you play only two, but it will come up eventually. Besides, if you add Zenith, the deck is already pretty stacked. A quick draft got me to a list like this:

1 Arbor
4 Deathrite
4 Goyf
4 Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage /16

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana
1 Garruk Relentless /23

4 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland /21

I've left out the Phyrexian Tower, because I doubt it'll add enough to compensate for the fact that it only produces colourless mana. For the discard package I am tempted to remove the Therapies and go for a fourth Hymn and a third Lily.

The tower was to ensure that late game against Miracles, they could not just terminus/swords everything away but I also have no qualms to cutting it.

You traded Library for Zenith, I have played with Zenith since printing and am trying to see what trips Library can do. I have 3 open utility slots, I could easily go 1-2 Zenith, 1-2 targets. Which would take me to:

Creatures(17)
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(5)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Dismember
3 Choke

The reason I liked Noxious Revival is that most decks are vulnerable to certain cards we play but not all of them. Double hymn, double therapy(or triple), double decay/push or just re buying a dude can be game breaking especially with Library/Confidant card advantage. In more corner cases, re-buying sideboard cards can also be game breaking.

[damionblackgear]

I like your earlier tested draft more. That most recent version looks to me like wants to be a high CC agro deck. Or playing Eva Green and allowing your opponent to start with a Trinisphere and a land.

Zenith seems wrong with your list. Especially as a 3-of. MAYBE as a 2-of you could pull it off but, I don't like it in that most recent list. At 3cc you'd rather be able to be doing something useful. Unfortunately, there aren't that many good places to play Zenith as a core part of the deck anymore.

If you do use it, I'd suggest diversifying your options at each value so you can act (pro- and re- actively) to your opponent.

[lavafrogg]

I like your earlier tested draft more. That most recent version looks to me like wants to be a high CC agro deck. Or playing Eva Green and allowing your opponent to start with a Trinisphere and a land.

Zenith seems wrong with your list. Especially as a 3-of. MAYBE as a 2-of you could pull it off but, I don't like it in that most recent list. At 3cc you'd rather be able to be doing something useful. Unfortunately, there aren't that many good places to play Zenith as a core part of the deck anymore.

If you do use it, I'd suggest diversifying your options at each value so you can act (pro- and re- actively) to your opponent.

The first draft was GSZ based, then I went to Eternal Witness and Unearth, now Tireless Tracker and Noxious Revival.

I am super happy with the Trackers but cannot seem to fill the last three spots....

Creatures(16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Noxious Revival--------Three Open Spots

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
3 Swamps
3 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland


Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
3 Choke

What would you suggest Daimon? The utility lands are also in the air for what I want them to be doing. A savannah for teeg/hatebears out of the board is an option, but so is literally every other lane package.

Option 1:

3 Crop Rotations

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage

Bog, Canopy also options
So you can fetch wastelands or missing combo pieces.

Option 2:

1-3 Green Sun's Zenith
1-3 Utility Creatures

Witness, Teeg, Scooze, Sage

Option 3:

2 Unearths
1 Witness

Cycle when nothing in the yard, brings back all creatures in deck

Option 4:

Removal/Sweepers

The last 3 cards are utility slots that I cant seem to fill without testing. I really like the Revivals but the Crop Rotations also have synergy with the rest of the deck and the tireless trackers.

Option 5:
2-3 More Lilliana's
She is super utility and has game against every deck in legacy.

Bonus: The revivals make Lost Legacy out of the board much better as you can essentially run 3 extra copies once you find the first. In most cases, the second legacy is GG.

[Megadeus]

I think a liliana or two is needed. This deck can't beat a resolved true name it seems like. Or something. Maybe even just like a jitte or something. Or if you wanna get real deep you can play chrome mox or diamond for turn 1 2 drops which is pretty sweet

[lavafrogg]

I think a liliana or two is needed. This deck can't beat a resolved true name it seems like. Or something. Maybe even just like a jitte or something. Or if you wanna get real deep you can play chrome mox or diamond for turn 1 2 drops which is pretty sweet

I think I am going to run out the 3 noxious revival at my local this week, if true name is an issue maybe I mainboard 3 golgari charms or just up the Lilliana count above 1. I know I don't see a lot of true names where I play.

Edit: any love for collective brutality?

[Asthereal]

You traded Library for Zenith.
I forgot Library. That's a bit stupid.
That'll be +2 Library, -2 Therapy.
I was wondering why I had space for those...

[lavafrogg]

I forgot Library. That's a bit stupid.
That'll be +2 Library, -2 Therapy.
I was wondering why I had space for those...

Why no love for Cabal Therapy? Running plenty of creatures and thought size allows us to not cast it blind every time. Seems like it fits in well with the discard package, I think the first discard I would cut is hymn as He list is heavy on two drops as it is.

I could go -3 hymn, +1 thoughtsieze, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 GSZ target

Creatures(17)
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(6)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
3 Choke

I kinda dig this list.

[CptHaddock]

I think I am going to run out the 3 noxious revival at my local this week, if true name is an issue maybe I mainboard 3 golgari charms or just up the Lilliana count above 1. I know I don't see a lot of true names where I play.

Edit: any love for collective brutality?

Someone was recommending me that card as well tonight at locals. I'm going to try jamming that card and see how I like it.


I ended up going 3-1 with GB Pile, my only changes to the list that I previously posted was -1 Bayou, +1 Treetop Village. Playing around with the deck made me realize how weak we actually are to planeswalkers, i'm not sure however if adding a manland is just better than having something like pulse maindeck.

Beating BUG Delver (2-0), UR Painter (2-0) and Grixis Delver (2-0 but this wasn't really games more like turn 1 removal + wasteland both games) and losing to D&T (0-2). I think the D&T matchup was a combination of me punting and me drawing really poorly as I got stuck on 3 lands in both games. I know that this is still pretty limited testing but i'll concur with lavafrogg in that the deck is more than playable taking away the white splash. I think the biggest thing you are losing is KoTR and the ability to crop rotate every turn. I'm not really sure how to remedy that in my list other than running more crop rotations. Between 7-8 removal spells for most creatures played in legacy you should be able to handle Angler and other creatures just with either Liliana or giant Goyfs/Trackers.

1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Treetop Village
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
2 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Leyline of the Void

[sdematt]

Have you tried blinding the opponents with your pimp? Works for me.

Thank you for resurrecting, I'm enjoying the reading.

How's everyone been?

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Someone was recommending me that card as well tonight at locals. I'm going to try jamming that card and see how I like it.


I ended up going 3-1 with GB Pile, my only changes to the list that I previously posted was -1 Bayou, +1 Treetop Village. Playing around with the deck made me realize how weak we actually are to planeswalkers, i'm not sure however if adding a manland is just better than having something like pulse maindeck.

Beating BUG Delver (2-0), UR Painter (2-0) and Grixis Delver (2-0 but this wasn't really games more like turn 1 removal + wasteland both games) and losing to D&T (0-2). I think the D&T matchup was a combination of me punting and me drawing really poorly as I got stuck on 3 lands in both games. I know that this is still pretty limited testing but i'll concur with lavafrogg in that the deck is more than playable taking away the white splash. I think the biggest thing you are losing is KoTR and the ability to crop rotate every turn. I'm not really sure how to remedy that in my list other than running more crop rotations. Between 7-8 removal spells for most creatures played in legacy you should be able to handle Angler and other creatures just with either Liliana or giant Goyfs/Trackers.

1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Treetop Village
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
1 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
2 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Leyline of the Void

Awesome results!

Do you ever want the 3rd Life from the Loam with all of your "lands matter" cards? also, you have very little disruption for combo.dec are you just giving up on the match up all together? I know it will never be our best match-up but I like to always aim to at least be able to steal a match here and there....

You list just has so much removal and so many wastelands... I don't see how 3 color lists or decks that like to win with creatures can take games from you... unless you punt and get stuck on 3 lands...losing to land issues is one of the main reasons I want to cut white, I feel like most of my losses are to mana base, and not the strategy of the deck being inferior(especially against DnT where if you can establish mana, you most likely win).

On another note, your list seems soft to DnT overall. You play tons of non-basics, lots of cards that cost 3, 2 deluge/1 golgari charm is all you really bring in and you don't have the discard to make them dump their hands into a sweeper. I think Cabal Therapy is AMAZING against non-blue decks as you can strip their hand at will, take vials turn 1 on the play, mom/swords on the draw and you can really mess up their gameplan.

You are also pretty graveyard dependent, which means you derp a lot, more so lowering combo and fast deck win percentages.

These are all just thoughts, I love the list and am looking at my Mox Diamonds right now. When I played GB Aggro Loam I always mox'd into hymn and followed that with a goyf or a confidant.. I loved that deck.

I actually just found the old post in the archives... You will get a kick out of these

// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

I had a version with Stoneforge Mystic, I added and took away Knight of the Reliquary... Terravore was just better back then when people played Knight decks and graveyard hate wasn't as strong.

These were back in 2011 and I got a pretty bad reception from the Aggro Loam players of the time. I do appreciate that the idea has appeared in tournaments today, maybe I should go back to my roots.

also, that other thread was awesome Hanni, SdeMatt, Finn and Mr. Safety were all involved. I just couldn't play as much back then.

@sdematt- we can't all blind people with our pimped out deck lists...cards are expensive enough as it is! Life is going good for me, we are all just getting old... and still playing legacy!

[CptHaddock]

Have you tried blinding the opponents with your pimp? Works for me.

Thank you for resurrecting, I'm enjoying the reading.

How's everyone been?

-Matt

The only pimp that I have is painter stuff. Do I just put in assorted pimp cards and hope for the best?


Awesome results!

Do you ever want the 3rd Life from the Loam with all of your "lands matter" cards? also, you have very little disruption for combo.dec are you just giving up on the match up all together? I know it will never be our best match-up but I like to always aim to at least be able to steal a match here and there....


Thanks!

The no combo hate is quite a concession to the metagame at my store. It's mostly delver + other non-blue fair deck with a few Br reanimator players. I think that if I was going to an actual tournament I would restructure my sideboard. The sideboard currently is a big work in progress, I just went with the first cards that came to mind. I'm thinking that the best options might be just to play 3-4 hymns in the board and hope that your thoughtseizes, hymns, and style of the deck will get you there otherwise. My local metagame is kind of weird in that we used to have 5+ miracles players show up each week but now we have 0, so i'm not really getting to play out probably one of the biggest matchups. I guess i'll try to hit up some of my miracles friends and see if we can play some games so I can get a feel for the deck in the matchup.

As for the 3rd loam I don't really think I need it. For me loam is just another way to get card advantage so the only time I usually am loaming is if I want to hit a specific land, if i'm looking to wasteland lock or if I have the resources to loam and either cycle or draw some cards with tracker a few times.



You list just has so much removal and so many wastelands... I don't see how 3 color lists or decks that like to win with creatures can take games from you... unless you punt and get stuck on 3 lands...losing to land issues is one of the main reasons I want to cut white, I feel like most of my losses are to mana base, and not the strategy of the deck being inferior(especially against DnT where if you can establish mana, you most likely win).

On another note, your list seems soft to DnT overall. You play tons of non-basics, lots of cards that cost 3, 2 deluge/1 golgari charm is all you really bring in and you don't have the discard to make them dump their hands into a sweeper. I think Cabal Therapy is AMAZING against non-blue decks as you can strip their hand at will, take vials turn 1 on the play, mom/swords on the draw and you can really mess up their gameplan.

You are also pretty graveyard dependent, which means you derp a lot, more so lowering combo and fast deck win percentages.


My round 1 BUG Delver opponent said the same exact thing about the removal + wasteland plan. One thing I did notice yesterday was that I was mulliganing frequently to find lands, 23 + 4 moxes is probably 1-2 lands too short.

Anyways as for the D&T matchup, I think you're right. They're one of the few decks which actually strain all of our removal spells since basically every threat minus thalia and avenger is something that we have to answer. I think I have a little more than the 2 deluges and 1 charm but I might also be overboarding. I brought the following in:

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage

Therapy seems a lot better in your version than mine since i'm not playing unearths but I agree with the general point you're trying to make. You can basically just strip your opponent's hand and on paper your cards are much stronger 1 for 1. I'm a sucker for value but I really don't want to be sacrificing goyfs and bobs to 2 for 1 my opponents. :tongue:



These are all just thoughts, I love the list and am looking at my Mox Diamonds right now. When I played GB Aggro Loam I always mox'd into hymn and followed that with a goyf or a confidant.. I loved that deck.

I actually just found the old post in the archives... You will get a kick out of these


My original list was running 4 DRS too but I think with the way that legacy is going you want to have the ability to play haymaker after haymaker in your non-blue decks to just overwhelm your opponents. Mox diamond seemed like the best way of doing that.

Your list looks dope btw, seems like we've come full circle. The more things change the more they stay the same. Hopefully I didn't ramble on...

[lavafrogg]

The only pimp that I have is painter stuff. Do I just put in assorted pimp cards and hope for the best?



Thanks!

The no combo hate is quite a concession to the metagame at my store. It's mostly delver + other non-blue fair deck with a few Br reanimator players. I think that if I was going to an actual tournament I would restructure my sideboard. The sideboard currently is a big work in progress, I just went with the first cards that came to mind. I'm thinking that the best options might be just to play 3-4 hymns in the board and hope that your thoughtseizes, hymns, and style of the deck will get you there otherwise. My local metagame is kind of weird in that we used to have 5+ miracles players show up each week but now we have 0, so i'm not really getting to play out probably one of the biggest matchups. I guess i'll try to hit up some of my miracles friends and see if we can play some games so I can get a feel for the deck in the matchup.

As for the 3rd loam I don't really think I need it. For me loam is just another way to get card advantage so the only time I usually am loaming is if I want to hit a specific land, if i'm looking to wasteland lock or if I have the resources to loam and either cycle or draw some cards with tracker a few times.



My round 1 BUG Delver opponent said the same exact thing about the removal + wasteland plan. One thing I did notice yesterday was that I was mulliganing frequently to find lands, 23 + 4 moxes is probably 1-2 lands too short.

Anyways as for the D&T matchup, I think you're right. They're one of the few decks which actually strain all of our removal spells since basically every threat minus thalia and avenger is something that we have to answer. I think I have a little more than the 2 deluges and 1 charm but I might also be overboarding. I brought the following in:

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage

Therapy seems a lot better in your version than mine since i'm not playing unearths but I agree with the general point you're trying to make. You can basically just strip your opponent's hand and on paper your cards are much stronger 1 for 1. I'm a sucker for value but I really don't want to be sacrificing goyfs and bobs to 2 for 1 my opponents. :tongue:



My original list was running 4 DRS too but I think with the way that legacy is going you want to have the ability to play haymaker after haymaker in your non-blue decks to just overwhelm your opponents. Mox diamond seemed like the best way of doing that.

Your list looks dope btw, seems like we've come full circle. The more things change the more they stay the same. Hopefully I didn't ramble on...

I think the 3rd loam is almost needed, it makes so much of your list tick, also, you kind of have a little bit of all of our options; would it be beneficial to focus the deck a little?

[ClimbGneiss]

Okay,

Went 4-0 tonight at a weekly, which doesn't say much... but is better than 0-4.

New draft to the much hated GB Rock list, the first draft was further up the page.

I started with the best GB library manipulation/card advantage engine I could find and went from there.

Creatures(16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Unearth

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
3 Choke

I beat Miracles round one 2-0. round two was Merfolk 2-0, Nic Fit 2-1 and Death and Taxes 2-1.

For the most part I was just the deck with all of the removal... i.e. against Merfolk and Death and Taxes.

The Miracle player had no idea what I was going to do the whole game and countered 2 Dark Confidants and 1 Sylvan Library before the second Library stuck to drown him game one. Game two I cast the same Lost legacy 3 times to strip him of win cons(Jace, Entreant, Mentor) for the scoop.

My losses were to a DnT where I drew no win conditions the entire game(goyf) and a game to Nic Fit where he went over the top, swords would have been nice...

Obviously SFM would have been awesome to help against Dnt and swords would have been nice against Nic Fits large dudes, but overall I did not feel like I needed to have the splash. The mana base felt awesome and Eternal Witness is jjust a really dumb card. Therapy-Witness-Therapy-Unearth-Therapy-Therapy also happened over the course of several turns against the Nic Fit player to ensure he never had gas.

Unearth was super fun but I could see cutting 1, Life from the Loam was not stellar since I dropped the Lilliana count to 1, Thoughtsieze was also pretty bad. I never drew the Garruk but wanted to several times throughout the night.

Anyone who is interested, what do you think?

p.s. I should be able to play again monday/tuesday.

I find this list fascinating! I am typically a Deathblade player, but my pet deck is Smallpox. Over the years, I secretly have wondered about playing a list with unearth or Noxious revival. Another thought I've had is dropping the smallpox and just running Wasteland and Sinkhole to pair with Deathrite shaman.
I digress. Anyway, I really like unearth and eternal witness; however, I can see why you'd find Noxious Revival more appealing because it directly fetches an answer from your yard or Ruins a draw step from an opponent.
Have you considered running Grim Flayer?

[CptHaddock]

I think the 3rd loam is almost needed, it makes so much of your list tick, also, you kind of have a little bit of all of our options; would it be beneficial to focus the deck a little?

I'm very open to that idea, what would you cut for the 3rd loam? I'm thinking the 2nd eternal witness or the singleton crop rotation. There is a tournament for a dual nearby this weekend, I think i'm going to make some minor modifications based on your suggestions and my experience and see how that goes. Changes are: -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Eternal Witness, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Bayou main. -1 Choke, -1 Leyline of the Void, -1 Ghost Quarter, +3 Hymn to Tourach side.

1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
1 Treetop Village
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket

4 Mox Diamond

1 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Leyline of the Void

[damionblackgear]

Why no love for Cabal Therapy? Running plenty of creatures and thought size allows us to not cast it blind every time. Seems like it fits in well with the discard package, I think the first discard I would cut is hymn as He list is heavy on two drops as it is.

I could go -3 hymn, +1 thoughtsieze, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 GSZ target

Creatures(17)
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(6)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
3 Choke

I kinda dig this list.

Of the choices you gave, I liked the Unearth + Witness more. It looks like you're going with the zenith route though. In this case I'd give you the best investment advice you can typically get, "Diversify your bonds." You're extremely limited in what you have access to at each X value.
as a side question, do you or your opponent typically go hellbent quickly? If so, what about Asylum Visitor instead of Bob? If you are planning on using more self discard, it could be a good thing.

[lavafrogg]

Of the choices you gave, I liked the Unearth + Witness more. It looks like you're going with the zenith route though. In this case I'd give you the best investment advice you can typically get, "Diversify your bonds." You're extremely limited in what you have access to at each X value.
as a side question, do you or your opponent typically go hellbent quickly? If so, what about Asylum Visitor instead of Bob? If you are planning on using more self discard, it could be a good thing.

I have not tested the GSZ build, I was just discussing for someone that posted about wanting GSZ.

Current list:

Creatures(16)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Dryad Arbor

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Noxious Revival

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Choke

I really like the shell I am just going back and forth between 3 Tracker/3 Revival and 3 Witness/3 Unearth. At the end of the day, Tracker is a beast, he usually draws 2-3 cards and pretty much always draws at least 1. He gets much larger and takes the pressure off of Goyf as the sole beatstick.

I am just really happy with the Revivals, I have lots of card advantage with Bob/Tracker/Library/Loam so going -1 to ensure my next draw is the card I want is a big deal. It pretty much functions as a Vampiric Tutor turn 3-4 with land/removal/discard/dude usually being in the yard. With Liliana and Garruk being in the deck, people usually waste resources to remove the planeswalkers and being able to draw them the turn after they die, or same turn with a clue, is a pretty big deal.

Big uses, no matter how rare: taking a reanimation target out of the graveyard on turn 0, messing with counterbalance flips, redrawing a wastelanded land when short, redrawing lost legacy after board, regrowing any card after the opponent used a limited resource to destroy.. ie Sylvan Library, countering a snapcaster mage, countering a deathrite shaman activation, ruining a top deck when it really matters, helping with runner-runner cabal therapy or hymn is also game breaking.

haddock-

I would remove a witness as you have 2 GSZ to find her. You should switch the leylines in your board to something else as you can't really mulligan for a 2 of... I really like the Loam/Lili interaction. Hopefully I can play this weekend, if not it will be Monday. Good Luck!

[Asthereal]

Of the choices you gave, I liked the Unearth + Witness more. It looks like you're going with the zenith route though. In this case I'd give you the best investment advice you can typically get, "Diversify your bonds." You're extremely limited in what you have access to at each X value.
He was responding to my suggestions to his original list with Unearths and Eternal Witness. He mentioned feeling that he was a little light on threats, and somewhat unsure of the Unearths, which was why I suggested Zenith. Zenith can fetch Witness if you want to retrieve something, so you need less of those. Furthermore, it makes Dryad Arbor a lot better, helping smoothe out the curve, and of course it helps us to more threats. Small bonus is the fact that you can get Reclamation Sage. I felt that it should be a fine addition, and posted a rough draft list in which I forgot to add Sylvan Library. That was a mistake, obviously, so I dropped Cabal Therapy to make space for Libraries.

And to answer Lavafrogg: I indeed am not the biggest fan of Therapy. It's good if you can use it well, but we don't run Probes and we also don't have token generators, so we don't have many ways to use Therapy optimally. But mostly I feel Therapy is hard to play, and demotivating when you screw it up, and you can easily avoid that. You can easily run cards that always work, like Hymn or Duress, so I prefer those.

BUT! Important note: This is my personal opinion. It's how I build my decks. I play competitively maybe once a month tops, so I tend to be a bit rusty. Making things easier for myself is a bit of a necessity unfortunately. It might be optimal to run a number of Therapies in a deck like this. I can't say for sure. All I can say for sure is that in my hands, the deck will be worse for it.

[damionblackgear]

Ahh. Sorry, I thought you updated to zenith. Thanks asthereal for the explanation as well. I must've missed the other post, sorry. Tracker seems OK. I don't know that there are that many really "good on their own" 3cc creatures in gb. Tracker may be the best one.

Question though, what about going beyond 3? Maybe creakwood liege? I know it's a 2/2 but it makes 3/3s and and avoids decay and push. You could replace 1 of the revivals with it or a second garruk instead? 3 is just seems a large number of revivals.

[lavafrogg]

Ahh. Sorry, I thought you updated to zenith. Thanks asthereal for the explanation as well. I must've missed the other post, sorry. Tracker seems OK. I don't know that there are that many really "good on their own" 3cc creatures in gb. Tracker may be the best one.

Question though, what about going beyond 3? Maybe creakwood liege? I know it's a 2/2 but it makes 3/3s and and avoids decay and push. You could replace 1 of the revivals with it or a second garruk instead? 3 is just seems a large number of revivals.

If I wanted to go bigger, I would pick another planeswalker, possibly a second Garruk or Lilliana. We still have to worry about other removal so having your big 4-5 drop sent farming is pretty bad.

Noxious Revival has been pretty amazing. I want to do a write up about the card soon after I get more playing time.

Found a bonus use for trips GSZ: more shuffle effects for library.. not really game breaking due to current shuffle and bob... but it is a plus

Also, pitching needle has officially made it into the board, answers a lot of problems we can have... Jace, top, dark depths...

[CptHaddock]

I ended up continuing my streak of getting top 8 and then losing 1st round with nonpainter decks at the win a dual tournament, there were about 20 people there. My list is basically the one I posted a page back with 1 change, I added another maelstrom pulse to the main as i'm always used to seeing a bunch of random decks like Sylvan Plug and Nic Fit whenever I go to this tournament series.

I went 4-0-1 in the swiss. My matches were as follows:

Round 1: Shardless BUG (2-0)

My opponent brought shardless agent to a rock fight, enough said. I originally thought he was on elves as that is what he normally plays and he thought that I was on painter. I'm not sure how the elves matchup is, I imagine it's bad though.

Round 2: Bant splashing Leovold Stoneblade (2-1)

Game 1: I killed his elf and then wastelanded him to concession.

Game 2: I made the mistake of being a little greedy and getting a bayou instead of a basic and ended up getting punished by a series of wastelands and TNN + Jitte.

Game 3: I got very lucky this match, I kept finding answers to my opponent's permanents at just the right moment but this was a game of haymaker after haymaker from both my opponent and I. I did have one kind of sweet play this game. My opponent had a Leovold and TNN on the table and the only thing I had was a board of an active Garruk (Flipped), a rec sage, a wolf token and a bunch of lands and moxes including karakas. I ended up sacking a wolf to get a e-witness to get back a Liliana in my yard. My opponent played a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and made a dude. I ended up drawing a decay, I played a Liliana, bounced his Leovold, decay'd his token, made him sack his TNN and killed his Sorin. I am too lucky at this game sometimes. :cool:

Round 3: Infect (2-1)

Game 1: Killed everything in sight and got a wasteland + loam lock going early.

Game 2: This game was insane, I was basically killing everything when I got the chance with my opponent slowly getting damage in. I was at 3-4 poison and any creature with a pump spell would have killed me. I had a golgari charm which I used when he used his first become immense, in response he played a 2nd one.

Game 3: Same as game 1 where I just killed everything in sight.

Round 4: Br Reanimator (2-1)

Game 1: He showed 2 Chancellor at the start of the game. I kept a pretty slow hand with DRS, Loam, Goyf and a bunch of lands. In retrospect I should have just let my DRS go turn 1 and then try to loam to find my karakas. He went turn 2 Griselbrand and followed it up with a Chancellor.

Game 2: I was lucky enough to get a leyline, confidant, mox and a karakas among the other lands in my land. I put in the leyline pregame and then played my confidant off a mox and a karakas. My opponent chuckled and said he probably was going to regret this then went dark ritual -> collective brutality with the -2/-2 and duress modes -> reanimate my confidant. He ended up hitting a bunch of his fatties with the confidant while beating me down while I was just drawing lands. I managed to get a goyf and a dryad arbor on the board. Me being the derp that I was thought I had him dead on the board so I killed the confidant and swung in for what I thought was lethal and ended up leaving him at 1. He dark ritualing out a wurmcoil engine, killed my arbor and ended up swinging with it the following turn. I used stronghold to put my dryad arbor back on top and blocking and wastelanding the arbor to prevent the lifegain. Opponent never expected that play and it ended up winning me the game. I think that if he had held back the wurmcoil engine he would have easily won the game.

Game 3: He mulliganed to 5, and I mulliganed to 4 trying to find some sort of interaction. I ended up keeping a hand of 3 lands, edict and scryed a karakas to the top. He went turn 1 reanimate griselbrand -> draw 7 putting him to 5. I bounced it with karakas and then played a confidant the following turn. Opponent quickly conceded because he had not drawn anything relevant.

Round 5: IDed with someone to get into top 8.

So after top 8 was announced, the guy playing infect was 8th seed. He had to leave to take care of the baby so the 8th seed ended up being Aluren. :cry: I can beat infect easily but Aluren is a huge pain the ass. I'll openly admit that this is one matchup where I wish I had a white splash.

Aluren (1-2)

Game 1: I keep an okay hand but it doesn't have enough disruption to stop him. He plays nonstop strixes and I am unable to find removal spells for any of them. He then plays an aluren for value and ends up playing a bunch of dudes (including cavern harpy out), I draw a Pulse and kill the Aluren. On his turn he plays another Aluren and kills me with the combo.

Game 2: Kill most of his dudes asap and get a Garruk active. He plays an Aluren for value and I end up putting a bunch of creatures into play including a scavenging ooze and quickly take over the game with Garruk + Goyf and Ooze.

Game 3: Mulligan to 5 trying to find a hand that will interact with him somehow. I end up keeping a pretty slow 5 that basically has a turn 1 goyf and that is it and is pretty land light. I play a library the next turn and never end up finding additional lands. He find a powder keg and kills both my library and my goyf. That's about the extent of my play this game, he quickly takes over the game with a Leovold and then plays an Aluren in the following turn.


tl;dr I need to convince my teammates to let me play GB trashcan at the SCG event next weekend.

[lavafrogg]

I ended up continuing my streak of getting top 8 and then losing 1st round with nonpainter decks at the win a dual tournament, there were about 20 people there. My list is basically the one I posted a page back with 1 change, I added another maelstrom pulse to the main as i'm always used to seeing a bunch of random decks like Sylvan Plug and Nic Fit whenever I go to this tournament series.

I went 4-0-1 in the swiss. My matches were as follows:

Round 1: Shardless BUG (2-0)

My opponent brought shardless agent to a rock fight, enough said. I originally thought he was on elves as that is what he normally plays and he thought that I was on painter. I'm not sure how the elves matchup is, I imagine it's bad though.

Round 2: Bant splashing Leovold Stoneblade (2-1)

Game 1: I killed his elf and then wastelanded him to concession.

Game 2: I made the mistake of being a little greedy and getting a bayou instead of a basic and ended up getting punished by a series of wastelands and TNN + Jitte.

Game 3: I got very lucky this match, I kept finding answers to my opponent's permanents at just the right moment but this was a game of haymaker after haymaker from both my opponent and I. I did have one kind of sweet play this game. My opponent had a Leovold and TNN on the table and the only thing I had was a board of an active Garruk (Flipped), a rec sage, a wolf token and a bunch of lands and moxes including karakas. I ended up sacking a wolf to get a e-witness to get back a Liliana in my yard. My opponent played a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and made a dude. I ended up drawing a decay, I played a Liliana, bounced his Leovold, decay'd his token, made him sack his TNN and killed his Sorin. I am too lucky at this game sometimes. :cool:

Round 3: Infect (2-1)

Game 1: Killed everything in sight and got a wasteland + loam lock going early.

Game 2: This game was insane, I was basically killing everything when I got the chance with my opponent slowly getting damage in. I was at 3-4 poison and any creature with a pump spell would have killed me. I had a golgari charm which I used when he used his first become immense, in response he played a 2nd one.

Game 3: Same as game 1 where I just killed everything in sight.

Round 4: Br Reanimator (2-1)

Game 1: He showed 2 Chancellor at the start of the game. I kept a pretty slow hand with DRS, Loam, Goyf and a bunch of lands. In retrospect I should have just let my DRS go turn 1 and then try to loam to find my karakas. He went turn 2 Griselbrand and followed it up with a Chancellor.

Game 2: I was lucky enough to get a leyline, confidant, mox and a karakas among the other lands in my land. I put in the leyline pregame and then played my confidant off a mox and a karakas. My opponent chuckled and said he probably was going to regret this then went dark ritual -> collective brutality with the -2/-2 and duress modes -> reanimate my confidant. He ended up hitting a bunch of his fatties with the confidant while beating me down while I was just drawing lands. I managed to get a goyf and a dryad arbor on the board. Me being the derp that I was thought I had him dead on the board so I killed the confidant and swung in for what I thought was lethal and ended up leaving him at 1. He dark ritualing out a wurmcoil engine, killed my arbor and ended up swinging with it the following turn. I used stronghold to put my dryad arbor back on top and blocking and wastelanding the arbor to prevent the lifegain. Opponent never expected that play and it ended up winning me the game. I think that if he had held back the wurmcoil engine he would have easily won the game.

Game 3: He mulliganed to 5, and I mulliganed to 4 trying to find some sort of interaction. I ended up keeping a hand of 3 lands, edict and scryed a karakas to the top. He went turn 1 reanimate griselbrand -> draw 7 putting him to 5. I bounced it with karakas and then played a confidant the following turn. Opponent quickly conceded because he had not drawn anything relevant.

Round 5: IDed with someone to get into top 8.

So after top 8 was announced, the guy playing infect was 8th seed. He had to leave to take care of the baby so the 8th seed ended up being Aluren. :cry: I can beat infect easily but Aluren is a huge pain the ass. I'll openly admit that this is one matchup where I wish I had a white splash.

Aluren (1-2)

Game 1: I keep an okay hand but it doesn't have enough disruption to stop him. He plays nonstop strixes and I am unable to find removal spells for any of them. He then plays an aluren for value and ends up playing a bunch of dudes (including cavern harpy out), I draw a Pulse and kill the Aluren. On his turn he plays another Aluren and kills me with the combo.

Game 2: Kill most of his dudes asap and get a Garruk active. He plays an Aluren for value and I end up putting a bunch of creatures into play including a scavenging ooze and quickly take over the game with Garruk + Goyf and Ooze.

Game 3: Mulligan to 5 trying to find a hand that will interact with him somehow. I end up keeping a pretty slow 5 that basically has a turn 1 goyf and that is it and is pretty land light. I play a library the next turn and never end up finding additional lands. He find a powder keg and kills both my library and my goyf. That's about the extent of my play this game, he quickly takes over the game with a Leovold and then plays an Aluren in the following turn.


tl;dr I need to convince my teammates to let me play GB trashcan at the SCG event next weekend.

Grats on the finish, sorry you couldn't bring it home.

Your issue with Aluren is that you don't really play any way to interact with the non-interactive decks. You added hymns to the sideboard last time, but still pretty much gave up on the unfair matchups.

I would suggest removing the hymns and adding Lost Legacy as that card is bonkers in my board against a wide range of decks. It helps against miracles, reanimator, storm, shardless, Loam, lands, Aluren... and lots of other tier 2 decks.

I prefer 6-7 main deck discard spells to at least have an attempt at slowing them down, but that is what you give up for the overwhelming power that is loam.

I haven't been able to test the Bant TNN deck yet, how did it feel?

It does seem like you boarded against your meta as you did have tons of hate for the reanimate deck.

Have you tried encorperating Chalice of the Void into your list either main or side? Mox into Chalice for 1 is pretty bonkers.

Maybe something like this:

Lands (23)
3 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp

Loam Engine(12)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Chalice of the Void

Dudes(11)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker

Spells(14)
4 Collective Brutality
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
3 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
3 Dismember
2 Marsh Casulties

But with your personal touches. Collective brutality most likely isn't good enough, but it is pretty nuts when you are just discarding lands.

[CptHaddock]

Grats on the finish, sorry you couldn't bring it home.

Your issue with Aluren is that you don't really play any way to interact with the non-interactive decks. You added hymns to the sideboard last time, but still pretty much gave up on the unfair matchups.

I would suggest removing the hymns and adding Lost Legacy as that card is bonkers in my board against a wide range of decks. It helps against miracles, reanimator, storm, shardless, Loam, lands, Aluren... and lots of other tier 2 decks.

I prefer 6-7 main deck discard spells to at least have an attempt at slowing them down, but that is what you give up for the overwhelming power that is loam.

I haven't been able to test the Bant TNN deck yet, how did it feel?

It does seem like you boarded against your meta as you did have tons of hate for the reanimate deck.

Yeah I figure that most of my combo matchups are going to be awful and I am going to have to hope that they either mulligan to oblivion or I thoughtseize some key pieces and beat them down before they go off. I honestly completely forgot that lost legacy existed and I think that is probably a better solution then Hymn in the combo matchups. I also considered the 4 chalice in the sideboard inspired by the really old school aggro loam lists but I never got a chance to try that out. I think it's really just going to come down to retooling my sideboard, I think I have way too much stuff for matchups that I think are already pretty good.

Not sure how I feel about the Bant TNN matchup, my opponent was playing the Reid Duke style of 8 mana dorks + TNN alongside SFM. He told me later that he was super worried about my loam engine since he wasn't playing any basics. I think for us it's just about keeping the board clean, if they ever land a TNN + some sort of equipment it's very easily going to take over the game just like they would in against any other fair deck. I wasn't really worried about Leovold, i'm fine with my opponents drawing a card if I basically "timewalk" with a Karakas. My opponents are drawing nonsense while i'm ancestraling with some combination of Loam, Confidant and Tracker.

[lavafrogg]

Yeah I figure that most of my combo matchups are going to be awful and I am going to have to hope that they either mulligan to oblivion or I thoughtseize some key pieces and beat them down before they go off. I honestly completely forgot that lost legacy existed and I think that is probably a better solution then Hymn in the combo matchups. I also considered the 4 chalice in the sideboard inspired by the really old school aggro loam lists but I never got a chance to try that out. I think it's really just going to come down to retooling my sideboard, I think I have way too much stuff for matchups that I think are already pretty good.

Not sure how I feel about the Bant TNN matchup, my opponent was playing the Reid Duke style of 8 mana dorks + TNN alongside SFM. He told me later that he was super worried about my loam engine since he wasn't playing any basics. I think for us it's just about keeping the board clean, if they ever land a TNN + some sort of equipment it's very easily going to take over the game just like they would in against any other fair deck. I wasn't really worried about Leovold, i'm fine with my opponents drawing a card if I basically "timewalk" with a Karakas. My opponents are drawing nonsense while i'm ancestraling with some combination of Loam, Confidant and Tracker.

I'm so glad you got mana base wins! Playing 4 wastelands and a stable mana base is a huge reason to play straight GB, silly greedy 3 color lists.

Chalice is always a thing, especially when your goal is to start at 2CC cards, it will be good against some... bad against others.

I do have a concern about equipment but Decay answers almost everything(Batterskull) and a 3/1 will usually be playing blocker for goyfs in most cases.

On Lost Legacy- soooooo goooodddd!!! Some decks run 1-2 trump cards over rock.... bye! I bring it in against all combo and control matchups. Part of the reason I love my Noxious Revivals.

I am playing tomorrow night and will post results as soon as I can.

[Megadeus]

Lands (23)
3 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp

Loam Engine(12)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Chalice of the Void

Dudes(11)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker

Spells(14)
4 Collective Brutality
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
3 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
3 Dismember
2 Marsh Casulties

But with your personal touches. Collective brutality most likely isn't good enough, but it is pretty nuts when you are just discarding lands.
I really like this deck. Wish I had diamond to try it out

[lavafrogg]

I really like this deck. Wish I had diamond to try it out

I love me some Mox Diamond and Life from the Loam....

Got to play a 3 rounder tonight to a 2-1 finish.

Match 1- ANT 0-2

Lost on turn 2.

Lost on turn 1.

Fun times.

Match 2- Grixis Delver 2-1

Game 1 - I take a game loss as all the cards i did not sideboard in round 1, I shuffled into my library...

Game 2 - Wasteland- Noxious Revival- Wasteland in addition to removal for his turn 1 delver was GG.

Game 3 - Bob gets bolted, Goyf gets countered and Tireless Tracker goes ham.

Match 3 - Faerie Stompy

Game 1 - Bob and Goyf get going quick as the opponent has mana issues.

Game 2 - I mistakenly sideboard out removal, thinking he was on a bigger ramp deck and quickly lose to Effret and Drake beats.

Game 3 - In the controversial play of the game, he brings in Winter Orb(thinking I was a big mana Nic Fit deck) I have an easier time than he does with my 1-2cc spells against his jaces and ancient tombs. Deathrite Shaman got 2 Jace kills throughout the course of the game as I wasn't really drawing lands.. but I eventually hit a pocket of lands and got to play a goyf/confidant that he couldn't deal with.

Noxious Revival got me an extra cabal therapy in game 1, countered a DRS mana activation against Grixis and I think they came out against Stompy. I was super impressed by the Tireless Tracker as usual and my last few card slots are still being tested.

I loved being able to play basics in almost all of my matches. I never once worried about wastelands.

Issue still being Noxious vs Crop Rotation vs GSZ.....

[Claymore]

I think if you want GSZ, you're better off with Maverick or 4C Loam.

In this, Noxious Revival does seem good to push through more haymaker plays where discard falls short (counteract removal), and it runs enough card advantage (Bob, Tracker) to make up for the disadvantage. Being able to revive game winners like Choke, Sylvan Library, Lost Legacy, Diabolic Edict seems strong.

In that line, would Winter Orb be worthwhile? It may be too similar to Choke but can come down faster and is good against Lands. Also nice on turn 1 through Diamond.

[lambert101]

Hello all,

I saw the recent loam stompy list and fooled around with the following list below. I liked the idea of using loam and lands to use with collective brutality and Lilliana. I am not sure if brutality is worth the slots or if hymn is just better. I like Flayer as another threat. I am also wondering if Fatal Push should be the Dismember spots in the board. Just thinking out loud here.


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Hymn to Tourach or Collective Brutality
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Life from the Loam
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sylvan Library

3 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
4 Wateland
4 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Swamp

Sb:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dissmember or Flex Spots (if I have brutality as a 4 of in the main this could be 4 hymn in the board)
2 Marsh Casualties or Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm
3 Choke
2 Pithing Needle

[lavafrogg]

I think if you want GSZ, you're better off with Maverick or 4C Loam.

In this, Noxious Revival does seem good to push through more haymaker plays where discard falls short (counteract removal), and it runs enough card advantage (Bob, Tracker) to make up for the disadvantage. Being able to revive game winners like Choke, Sylvan Library, Lost Legacy, Diabolic Edict seems strong.

In that line, would Winter Orb be worthwhile? It may be too similar to Choke but can come down faster and is good against Lands. Also nice on turn 1 through Diamond.

Noxious Revival has been pretty boss so far, the interaction in the early game with Wasteland/fetches is huge as it ensures you hut your land drops. Mid to late game it is just a vampiric tutor, which is nice.

Winter orb might be a very strong option against big mana decks, this deck doesn't do anything real bad to break the symettery of the card but when you want to play goyfs and they want to play Jace...

Lambert- brutality was just an idea. Loam lists are most likely better off playing swords to plowshares/push as they curdle pretty hard with their mana already. Tireless tracker should also be at least a 3 of as he is so so so so good.

Flayer is really good until your opponent starts playing creatures, if you can get early delirium he is better, but I don't know what the average delirium turn is.

Edit-

New List after my last showing-

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Noxious Revival

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Lost Legacy
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Marsh Casuties
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach


I added three cycle lands to be able to draw the Noxious Revival target immediately and also to combo with the Life from the Loam late game. I never want to go full loam/dredge mode but drawing 3 in mid-late game can be game breaking in and of itself.

Also, I cut the 61st card I didn't know I was running.... math is hard....

[damionblackgear]

If I wanted to go bigger, I would pick another planeswalker, possibly a second Garruk or Lilliana. We still have to worry about other removal so having your big 4-5 drop sent farming is pretty bad.

That's fair. I'm still wrapping my head around Tracker being amazing. Is it because it's a cleanup crew when you're in a strong position or that it digs you out later? I haven't had an opportunity to try it so I have to ask. I trust I'm missing something and I may not get it until I get a chance to try it.

Another thought, since the cycle lands are CIPTs, do you need the item right then or could you use a man-land? Just thinking if you don't need the card right then, maybe some land beatings would be better.

[CptHaddock]

That's fair. I'm still wrapping my head around Tracker being amazing. Is it because it's a cleanup crew when you're in a strong position or that it digs you out later? I haven't had an opportunity to try it so I have to ask. I trust I'm missing something and I may not get it until I get a chance to try it.


Tracker is a bit of both and that is what makes her really good. She's basically a build your own knight that instead of getting CA from knight's crop rotation ability actually just gives you a card. Basically all your lands drops in the mid game turn into additional draw spells in the late game, and all your land drops in the late game into redraws. The only real setup that she needs is for you to make land drops which really isn't much setup in the first place.

[Megadeus]

Any thought to running a cradle? With tracker it's pretty nuts to easily break clues, and with stoneforge it let's you cast and equip in the same turn much easier

[lavafrogg]

Tracker is a bit of both and that is what makes her really good. She's basically a build your own knight that instead of getting CA from knight's crop rotation ability actually just gives you a card. Basically all your lands drops in the mid game additional draw spells in the late game, and all your land drops in the late game into redraws. The only real setup that she needs is for you to make land drops which really isn't much setup in the first place.

Knight never actually got card advantage, unless people were blindly swinging into her, she gave you control of a game and shattered your own manabase.

Tracker should always at least cantrip, play her after turn 3 with land in hand, and if she is allowed to live will draw an insane amount of cards. With the deck running goyfs and bobs the coast is usually clear for her to get a few land drops inns by then it is too late.

Additional bonus includes getting huge and not being graveyard dependent.

The cycle lands are still part of the noxious revival experiment, I could see man lands doing good in the right meta.

[ClimbGneiss]

Noxious Revival has been pretty boss so far, the interaction in the early game with Wasteland/fetches is huge as it ensures you hut your land drops. Mid to late game it is just a vampiric tutor, which is nice.

Winter orb might be a very strong option against big mana decks, this deck doesn't do anything real bad to break the symettery of the card but when you want to play goyfs and they want to play Jace...

Lambert- brutality was just an idea. Loam lists are most likely better off playing swords to plowshares/push as they curdle pretty hard with their mana already. Tireless tracker should also be at least a 3 of as he is so so so so good.

Flayer is really good until your opponent starts playing creatures, if you can get early delirium he is better, but I don't know what the average delirium turn is.

Edit-

New List after my last showing-

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker

Discard(8)
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Noxious Revival

Planeswalkers(2)
1 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Lost Legacy
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Marsh Casuties
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach


I added three cycle lands to be able to draw the Noxious Revival target immediately and also to combo with the Life from the Loam late game. I never want to go full loam/dredge mode but drawing 3 in mid-late game can be game breaking in and of itself.

Also, I cut the 61st card I didn't know I was running.... math is hard....

Regarding the 3 Noxious Revival. Can you recall situations where the card disadvantage or the game state situation made it obviously bad? In my mind, having an opening hand with 2 Noxious Revival would be an auto mull, whereas 2 unearth would be keep able bc of its cycling ability.

I like that it returns any card to the top of the library versus just creatures to play. I also like that it encourages us to play Tracker. Unearth doesn't seem eternal witness but it certainly seems to push us towards witness, Therapy and more lilianas, which creates many 3 cmc flips to Bob.

[lavafrogg]

Regarding the 3 Noxious Revival. Can you recall situations where the card disadvantage or the game state situation made it obviously bad? In my mind, having an opening hand with 2 Noxious Revival would be an auto mull, whereas 2 unearth would be keep able bc of its cycling ability.

I like that it returns any card to the top of the library versus just creatures to play. I also like that it encourages us to play Tracker. Unearth doesn't seem eternal witness but it certainly seems to push us towards witness, Therapy and more lilianas, which creates many 3 cmc flips to Bob.

Noxious revival has a lot of play in the early game to where the right revivalx2 hand could be really good which is part of the reason I like the card.

You have immense Wasteland protection, you get to double up on hymn/cabal for card advantage and if you follow up with a Dark Confidant/Library/tracker you are in great shape. Especially early when engines are not online, buying back a force of willed bob is still even in cards and most likely a pretty big blow out. Noxious Revival has been pretty bonkers overall.

Most decks have minimal card advantage so your bob/tracker/Loam/Lilliana/garruk/Library will be more than enough to make up the CA.

Unearth will cost 2 to draw a card... very meh, actually unearthing a creature is for mid game and unearth doesn't save you from wastelands or even help against combo.

[Claymore]

I like the cheeky play of ruining your opponent's draw too, incase they have very limited outs. Obviously useful against Miracles as well.

[ClimbGneiss]

Noxious revival has a lot of play in the early game to where the right revivalx2 hand could be really good which is part of the reason I like the card.

You have immense Wasteland protection, you get to double up on hymn/cabal for card advantage and if you follow up with a Dark Confidant/Library/tracker you are in great shape. Especially early when engines are not online, buying back a force of willed bob is still even in cards and most likely a pretty big blow out. Noxious Revival has been pretty bonkers overall.

Most decks have minimal card advantage so your bob/tracker/Loam/Lilliana/garruk/Library will be more than enough to make up the CA.

Unearth will cost 2 to draw a card... very meh, actually unearthing a creature is for mid game and unearth doesn't save you from wastelands or even help against combo.

Thank for the reply. I'm looking to.be convinced on this one actually because I've been a fan of Noxious Revival from afar for a while now. Specifically, I always thought its fringe use as a fateseal was impressive. In this deck, where we can assemble a couple of 4/5 goyfs in a heartbeat, fatesealing someone's draw step is very compelling.
The other item I've been covincing myself, even prior to your point, was being able to return a hymn and hymn someone onto oblivion. In a way, it's sort of like green-blacks version of force of will.

[lavafrogg]

There are corner cases where Noxious will be a blow out, but I don't think you can count on those from happening on a regular basis. These situations will be fatesealing your opponent ftw, removing the only dredge creature from the graveyard, "countering" a miracle, removing a reanimate target with the reanimate on the stack... just blowouts. I feel that the card is kind of like the opposite of stifle. It ensures you can't get mana denied(stifle+wasteland) out of the game, and then it has so many more applications that are all very matchup and draw dependent. Sometimes the card will counter a snapcaster, sometimes it will just be a deathrite shaman activation.

Hymn Revival Hymn is a 4-3 that strip your opponent of for random cards and you two cards and a draw step(or a cycle land). The draw 2 combo with Tireless Tracker is really strong as is putting a certain card on top for Dark Confidant triggers. Finally, the Vampiric Tutor like ability can not be understated, or the 2 mana revival+cycle land for an instant regrowth.

The card just has tons of play and I for one will be packing a few in my Rock list for the foreseeable future.

[ClimbGneiss]

There are corner cases where Noxious will be a blow out, but I don't think you can count on those from happening on a regular basis. These situations will be fatesealing your opponent ftw, removing the only dredge creature from the graveyard, "countering" a miracle, removing a reanimate target with the reanimate on the stack... just blowouts. I feel that the card is kind of like the opposite of stifle. It ensures you can't get mana denied(stifle+wasteland) out of the game, and then it has so many more applications that are all very matchup and draw dependent. Sometimes the card will counter a snapcaster, sometimes it will just be a deathrite shaman activation.

Hymn Revival Hymn is a 4-3 that strip your opponent of for random cards and you two cards and a draw step(or a cycle land). The draw 2 combo with Tireless Tracker is really strong as is putting a certain card on top for Dark Confidant triggers. Finally, the Vampiric Tutor like ability can not be understated, or the 2 mana revival+cycle land for an instant regrowth.

The card just has tons of play and I for one will be packing a few in my Rock list for the foreseeable future.

Not sure how much you've played with this build yet - but have you faced down a lot of combo? How is show and tell? Ant? Infect? RG Comni lands? Br reanimator?

I intend to run 3 Surgical, 2 Lost legacy, 1 Null Rod and 2 Pithing needle in my board; so, I feel pretty confident in my post board plan.

[lavafrogg]

Not sure how much you've played with this build yet - but have you faced down a lot of combo? How is show and tell? Ant? Infect? RG Comni lands? Br reanimator?

I intend to run 3 Surgical, 2 Lost legacy, 1 Null Rod and 2 Pithing needle in my board; so, I feel pretty confident in my post board plan.

I love the interest!

Please understand, we are underdogs to combo decks. Just like every other deck that does not play blue(this is a generalization, I don't care about "blank non-blue deck" that has a "good" combo matchup) Death and Taxes plays main board hate bears and still doesn't want to play combo decks.

That being said... our plan is to chain together enough discard to let our tarmogoyfs get there. In my experience this plan works a fair amount of the time as thoughtsieze into hymn into goyf/dark confidant can win a lot of games for no reason. In addition to discard plus goyf's we have a lot of incidental "hate" on cards we would play anyways. Deathrite Shaman/Noxious Revival help against graveyard decks or mess up a past in flames/threshold. Liliana can keep a storm deck from acquiring enough cards to storm us out.

We are trying to beat all of the fair decks while still having a fighting chance to steal games from the evil combo monsters from time to time.

Surgical and Lost legacy are the best cards we can bring into against combo and I would play both if you plan to see combo decks on a regular basis(I would also just play blue if combo is super present in your meta).

While I wouldn't want to play combo every round from my experience over the past few weeks I would rank the decks you mentioned like this

Bad

ANT 0-2
Sneak and Show 0-1
BR Reanimator 1-1
Lands 2-0
Infect 2-1

Not So Bad

My match record against these decks is after the name and is obviously still low at this point, I have so far been happy with the results and I feel that the combo match-up is very similar to old Maverick decks where you had Thalia and GSZ into Teeg with a few hatebears after board. Sometimes that was enough... sometimes it wasn't but at least you had a plan.

[lavafrogg]

Bump.

Went 3-1 this week. Beating BUG, Miracles and Goblins, I still haven't gotten over the hump against storm as my loss was to some nut draws from ANT.

Same list I have been playing, no changes so far.

[damionblackgear]

Bump.

Went 3-1 this week. Beating BUG, Miracles and Goblins, I still haven't gotten over the hump against storm as my loss was to some nut draws from ANT.

Same list I have been playing, no changes so far.

Nice showing. Unfortunately that storm problem isn't gonna go anywhere. You've got no teeth in that match.

Right now you have discard and almost no pressure (only goyf). Your sideboard gives some extra stall but no race. The other unfortunate part is that we've not found many more creatures that are efficient and/or convincing enough to assist.

We also tend to take combo in general is being a one deck archetype as opposed to being the multitude of decks that it actually is. An answer for one may not be the answer for another. It feels like we've been trying to operate this way since before the split.

Perhaps we should be looking into other areas of offense if we're going to focus on storm decks. Defense has continually been a losing battle. We're not playing Force. Defending doesn't seem like an option.

I'll see if I can find something later.

[Megadeus]

There's always good old Hippie Spec. Or Nether Void

[kinda]

Bump.

Went 3-1 this week. Beating BUG, Miracles and Goblins, I still haven't gotten over the hump against storm as my loss was to some nut draws from ANT.

Same list I have been playing, no changes so far.

Looking at the last list you posted, you have a lot of dead cards game 1 vs ANT/TES/Show and tell varieties etc. : 4 decay, 3 push. Plus some likely too slow cards like tracker and Garruk. I'd shave some push/decay/tracker/noxious revival? in the main for collective brutality. It's not the most spectacular card but it's solid against everything and I'm never sad to draw it.

In the board I would want the 4th seize plus some permanent hate. You don't actually have enough sb cards to swap out all of your dead maindeck cards vs storm.

[lavafrogg]

Looking at the last list you posted, you have a lot of dead cards game 1 vs ANT/TES/Show and tell varieties etc. : 4 decay, 3 push. Plus some likely too slow cards like tracker and Garruk. I'd shave some push/decay/tracker/noxious revival? in the main for collective brutality. It's not the most spectacular card but it's solid against everything and I'm never sad to draw it.

In the board I would want the 4th seize plus some permanent hate. You don't actually have enough sb cards to swap out all of your dead maindeck cards vs storm.

As much as I would like to beat combo, I don't actually think that a straight GB, or non blue deck in general, can make enough room to combo hate while still maintaining other matchups. I have had bad luck in pairing with the only storm player in the room the last few weeks.

The 4th thoughtseize and 4th hymn can come in but I have been enjoying the 3/2/3 split.

Collective Brutality is good but I want 1cc removal for early DRS/Mom and abrupt decay pulls extra duty against all non storm matchups. I could pull hymn for brutality which is a very real possibility. That would remove the BB casting cost difficulties, that being said, hymn is amazing.

I just don't think that bringing storm percentages up is worth what I would have to sacrifice.

[Megadeus]

I actually like the thought of cutting hymn for brutality. Brutality is a better top deck in the late game than hymn, and sometimes you get to kill a deathrite and take a spell from their hand or something on turn 2

[lavafrogg]

I actually like the thought of cutting hymn for brutality. Brutality is a better top deck in the late game than hymn, and sometimes you get to kill a deathrite and take a spell from their hand or something on turn 2

I don't think that you really gain anything from brutality over hymn. You lose the CA angle of hymn, the game winning factor of double hymn you and you get the ability to kill something small, which you already kill quite easily.

If you want a good card against combo I think the best option at GB is going to be Chalice of the Void powered by Mox Diamond and the Loam engine. In the at shell Abrupt Decay and Brutality fit nicely together, but you would be playing a Loam deck.

I have my Lost Legacies and feel like discard-legacy-goyf or DRS-Legacy "should" help me steal wins from time to time. It just hasn't happened yet. I will try taking out the therapies and going to 4 hymns and thoughtseizes, see if that helps.

[CptHaddock]

I don't think that you really gain anything from brutality over hymn. You lose the CA angle of hymn, the game winning factor of double hymn you and you get the ability to kill something small, which you already kill quite easily.

If you want a good card against combo I think the best option at GB is going to be Chalice of the Void powered by Mox Diamond and the Loam engine. In the at shell Abrupt Decay and Brutality fit nicely together, but you would be playing a Loam deck.

I have my Lost Legacies and feel like discard-legacy-goyf or DRS-Legacy "should" help me steal wins from time to time. It just hasn't happened yet. I will try taking out the therapies and going to 4 hymns and thoughtseizes, see if that helps.

Yeah I think that on paper brutality seems like the better but I feel like it's a 2 mana duress in most matchups. I think that Hymn is going to be the better card in most matchups. We have a plethora of tools for combo matchups postboard with things like cranial extraction effects, discard spells and even permanent based hate like thorn or chalice. It's just going to come down to drawing them at the right time. I think that most nonblue decks are going to have the same problem.

Anyways I want to play a more streamlined list like the one that Sean Brown posted in his legacy article this week. I'm not a fan of the Gifted Aetherborn he had initially so i'm going to replace them although I can see a case for them if there are a lot of BGx or Eldrazi decks running around. I still think that you want to run some number of mox diamonds or chrome moxes for more explosive starts but we'll see.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

[lavafrogg]

Yeah I think that on paper brutality seems like the better but I feel like it's a 2 mana duress in most matchups. I think that Hymn is going to be the better card in most matchups. We have a plethora of tools for combo matchups postboard with things like cranial extraction effects, discard spells and even permanent based hate like thorn or chalice. It's just going to come down to drawing them at the right time. I think that most nonblue decks are going to have the same problem.

Anyways I want to play a more streamlined list like the one that Sean Brown posted in his legacy article this week. I'm not a fan of the Gifted Aetherborn he had initially so i'm going to replace them although I can see a case for them if there are a lot of BGx or Eldrazi decks running around. I still think that you want to run some number of mox diamonds or chrome moxes for more explosive starts but we'll see.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker

4 Fatal Push
2 Life from the Loam
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Where is this article you speak of?

[CptHaddock]

Where is this article you speak of?

This week in legacy (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-scg-baltimore-open-and-classic). You can ctrl f "The Rock" to quickly get to the decklists.

[lavafrogg]

This week in legacy (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-scg-baltimore-open-and-classic). You can ctrl f "The Rock" to quickly get to the decklists.

Nice article, it is good to see that more people are playing the straight GB lists. Both lists shown are within a few cards of what I have been playing and the article hits the nail on the head when it says that the colors are a little soft to combo.

I think I am going to find room for the 3x Liliana and 4x seize 4x hymn, the tireless tracker has just been too good for me to cut down the numbers.

Finally, I am going to explore the depths combo and Living Wish as an option as my utility card. Without the hex age the combo will not be fast, but with wish and Loam it could be a good option to end the game.

New Current List:

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker

Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Noxious Revival

Planeswalkers(3)
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Lands(21)
2 Swamps
2 Forests
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor

Sideboard:
3 Choke
3 Lost Legacy
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Marsh Casuties
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hymn to Tourach

[lavafrogg]

Creatures (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
2 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vampire Hexmage
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (18)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
3 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands (22)
4 Bayou
2 Dark Depths
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Wasteland
2 Extirpate
1 Vampire Hexmage
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Yahenni's Expertise

This is a list from the article posted above that I am most interested in. The second list was pretty par to what we have been currently testing. This version takes our awesome 2 color mana base and adds the Dark Depths/Hexmage/Stage Combo. I think we would gain points against the dreaded combo matchup dude to the possibility of a turn 2/3 20/20 but we would lose points to Delver/DnT as our mana base would be more easily assault-able.

My current thoughts would be to remove some of the random and streamline a bit. I also don't really see the value in the AEtherborn seeing how we crush fare decks already.

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage

Disruption(8)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Planeswalkers(2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Living Wish

Lands(22)
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
3 Lost Legacy
2 Marsh Casulties
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Hexmage/Stage/Depths
2 Choke
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Scavenging Ooze

I am interested to see the Miracles matchup with these changes as endgame is making a 20/20 every other turn while most likely hiding behind a Liliana. You get random Jitte/Planeswalker/Chalice hate with the Hexmages and Living Wish is very versatile, finding all 3 combo pieces and most everything you are looking for in the board.

Anyone else brewing BG right now?

[Tokugawa]

Baleful Strix has told everyone: P/T of 1/1 is enough, and also perfect, for a deathtouch blocker. Gifted Aetherborn is an obviously subpar card for today's Legacy.

[lavafrogg]

Baleful Strix has told everyone: P/T of 1/1 is enough, and also perfect, for a deathtouch blocker. Gifted Aetherborn is an obviously subpar card for today's Legacy.

Isn't there a 2/3 deathtouch delirium guy for G? I think he would be the goto deathtouch creature if we needed one.

[Megadeus]

Isn't there a 2/3 deathtouch delirium guy for G? I think he would be the goto deathtouch creature if we needed one.

3/3 actually I think. Gnarlwood Dryad or something. Just play a Glissa. Eldrazi can never beat that card sans removal

[Chatto]

Isn't there a 2/3 deathtouch delirium guy for G? I think he would be the goto deathtouch creature if we needed one.

Narnam Renegade? Nice card... Needs Revolt to get to be 2/3, and is otherwise just a 1/1 Deathtouche creature.

[lavafrogg]

Narnam Renegade? Nice card... Needs Revolt to get to be 2/3, and is otherwise just a 1/1 Deathtouche creature.

This is the card I was talking about, but a 3/3 delirium death touch is pretty cool too. If there was a way to build around Glissa's second ability I would be all in with her also, Eldrazi has a hard time with Tarmogoyf's without removal.

[Tokugawa]

This is the card I was talking about, but a 3/3 delirium death touch is pretty cool too. If there was a way to build around Glissa's second ability I would be all in with her also, Eldrazi has a hard time with Tarmogoyf's without removal.

The second line of Glissa's rule text, in fact, is FLAVOR TEXT. Don't build your deck around 1-2 narrowest/weakest card.

[lavafrogg]

The second line of Glissa's rule text, in fact, is FLAVOR TEXT. Don't build your deck around 1-2 narrowest/weakest card.

I don't think any of the deathtouch cards are worth it. The reason strix is so strong is because he cantrips, usually netting a 2-1 in your favor.

The deathtouch creatures do nothing against the most popular deck in the format, Miracles, or our worst matchups, combo.

[damionblackgear]

Done looking at combo help stuff. Many may not find this card useful but Retreat to Kazandu seemed actually good. Additionally, why not 3-sphere? I skipped over things that have been tested a ton and these two seemed worth a little more attention.

Retreat turns every land into a plus 1 on storm counts and allows itself to pay for Price of Progress damage. Fetch lands pay for a bolt. I know I said being defensive was wrong but this actually attacks their win condition. That it can't be utilized until turn 3 isn't the greatest but, it's something.

Trinisphere should typically be one sided in the sense that were typically able to pay 3 without issue. Last time sphere was brought up the answer was that it was too slow and then disregarded. The list offered didn't have t2 potential.

[CptHaddock]

Done looking at combo help stuff. Many may not find this card useful but Retreat to Kazandu seemed actually good. Additionally, why not 3-sphere? I skipped over things that have been tested a ton and these two seemed worth a little more attention.

Retreat turns every land into a plus 1 on storm counts and allows itself to pay for Price of Progress damage. Fetch lands pay for a bolt. I know I said being defensive was wrong but this actually attacks their win condition. That it can't be utilized until turn 3 isn't the greatest but, it's something.

Trinisphere should typically be one sided in the sense that were typically able to pay 3 without issue. Last time sphere was brought up the answer was that it was too slow and then disregarded. The list offered didn't have t2 potential.

I think you were the one to say this previously but the biggest problem with all these cards is that they are very narrow in what combo decks they are good against. While 3ball is fantastic against decks like storm, infect and some draws of elves it loses it's luster when you're playing against show and tell decks. Retreat just seems really slow and I feel like it doesn't really do that much. 2 life is okay in a deck where you are playing confidants but the +1/+1 counter isn't really that important when your beaters are essentially some of the most efficient in the format.

Honestly I think that the best answer to combo (for just BG) is a combination of discard and cranial extraction effects. Lost legacy is a card that can be brought in against almost every combo deck (darn you painter!). I think that currently aside from some fringe combo decks here and there the big 3 are elves, storm and show & tell decks (primarily sneak based ones). Lost legacy helps combat these decks but can also fight against some of the fair decks.

[lavafrogg]

Done looking at combo help stuff. Many may not find this card useful but Retreat to Kazandu seemed actually good. Additionally, why not 3-sphere? I skipped over things that have been tested a ton and these two seemed worth a little more attention.

Retreat turns every land into a plus 1 on storm counts and allows itself to pay for Price of Progress damage. Fetch lands pay for a bolt. I know I said being defensive was wrong but this actually attacks their win condition. That it can't be utilized until turn 3 isn't the greatest but, it's something.

Trinisphere should typically be one sided in the sense that were typically able to pay 3 without issue. Last time sphere was brought up the answer was that it was too slow and then disregarded. The list offered didn't have t2 potential.

In the combo matchup, we will just never have a real chance at stopping them from killing us turn 0-1-2. On our turn 2 hymns, spheres and hatebears come online which is good, but still in the combo players favor.

The majority of my combo wins throughout the years have all came from similar blueprints. Discard plus a quick bob and/or goyf to seal the deal. Memoricide effexts, going back to cranial extraction, have always been my endgame because they always have uses against other decks besides just combo.

With the printing of Lost Legacy I think the proactive discard/disruption plan is better than ever.

Could nourish be a burn/combo counter? Kind of on the same plan as retreat just a turn earlier. Good old zuran orb could also work.

[harbingerofthevoid]

Could nourish be a burn/combo counter?

I played around with Pulse of Murasa in my Junk deck online. Had some interesting game swings vs Storm and Burn with it. Costs 1 more than Nourish but it CC is easier with just 1G and getting a land/creature back is a bonus. It could also do double duty vs. Reanimator in response to any of thier reanimation spells.

[tescrin]

This is the card I was talking about, but a 3/3 delirium death touch is pretty cool too. If there was a way to build around Glissa's second ability I would be all in with her also, Eldrazi has a hard time with Tarmogoyf's without removal.

There is in blue :)
Strix & Shardless Agent recur like a beast.

[lavafrogg]

I played around with Pulse of Murasa in my Junk deck online. Had some interesting game swings vs Storm and Burn with it. Costs 1 more than Nourish but it CC is easier with just 1G and getting a land/creature back is a bonus. It could also do double duty vs. Reanimator in response to any of thier reanimation spells.

Unfortunately I think Pulse costs a little too much to matter against combo, against burn... maybe game one and burn has a lot of problems with any life gain.

@tescrin ??? I think you are referring to building around Glissa's ability. Blue has much better things to be doing than playing a Glissa, also, this is a non blue thread currently talking about a BG deck... I do wish there were colorshifted options like shardless and baleful though.

[tescrin]

@tescrin ??? I think you are referring to building around Glissa's ability. Blue has much better things to be doing than playing a Glissa, also, this is a non blue thread currently talking about a BG deck... I do wish there were colorshifted options like shardless and baleful though.

My point wasn't to build around it; but that it happens to be a card that Shardless sometimes uses; and they use it to much better effect because the already have a bunch of CA artifacts sitting around. You could use Tidehollow or Revoker if you want; I was mostly cracking at the fact that U has the options for that build direction as well. Just funny to me.

[maharis]

If you have problems with big creatures that you can block Narnam Renegade and Gifted Aetherborn are both awesome. You can't beat the discount on these cards compared to Nighthawk/Glissa.

I've been playing Narnam and Renegade Rallier in Zoo -- they are both awesome. I am sure you could do some cool stuff with Rallier in this deck.

Andrea Mengucci has videos with a GSZ build. No SFM -- the white is very light (just STP, GSZ targets and sideboard cards). I haven't watched yet but here's the link:

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-mengucci-legacy-abzan/

[damionblackgear]

@CptHaddock - I was the one. Using my own statements against me... :smile: (there was no heart eye'd face :frown: )
I guess my view of where we needed to attack was different from my earlier statement. It is true that Show and Tell and Elves set a different attack style than storm or burn but, I don't see them as threats. That being said, Neither option is a real solution for either of those combo decks. I'll keep looking while I try Retreat in my build (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QTZyr_U-wOg7OGt_TW2yT8PSmQOHZThwv8BA5oNHHNk/edit#gid=5399911). I do feel attacking their win condition as a "don't lose" strategy could be a better form of attack than actually trying to beat them. In the end though, it is just a different form of defense... and that makes my suggesting them hypocritical :frown:.

@lavafrogg - The discard +beats +extraction plans have historically not performed well for us. I'm hoping to find something that we can actually use to be offensive (my style of offense... thanks Cpthaddock:tongue:). Right now, our Turn 0 is out of our control (unless we can extract their discarded win condition) but our turn 1+ we can interact and that interaction should be meaningful. As for creatures, I find 3cc creatures to be too late and 2/Xs to lack the required muscle to close the game fast enough. Unfortunately, we're forced to sacrifice power for versatility. If we choose power we loose in other places to not being versatile enough. I do agree with you on the "is it worth it" front. I used to count my best strength for beating the Combo decks as being everyone else in the tournament.

On Nourish, I've looked at it a couple of times in the past but never used it. As harbingerofthevoid brought up, the :g::g: might be difficult. I also think it'd be best vs AnT/TES, where they can't catch up a turn or two later, than Burn. Either way, I'd suggest Feed the Clan over Nourish for the chance at 10 (this should be a win) and 5 life is going to typically be as good as 6 in both cases.

@maharis - I think for your Zoo list both cards offer much more. Deathtouch on a Kird Ape seems amazing, since blockers typically gummed up your front door and having something with card advantage seems like it'd only add to the fun. For most of our lists, the Railler may have a place soon. No-one's really using it right now that I'm aware of. It definitely wouldn't be a bad idea (Goyf, Bob, Library, etc.) to test out later.

As far as this list
(NOTE, I didn't watch the video).

1 x Karakas
1 x Marsh Flats
3 x Windswept Heath
3 x Bayou
3 x Scrubland
4 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Forest
1 x Swamp

4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Dark Confidant
1 x Scavenging Ooze
3 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Qasali Pridemage
1 x Tireless Tracker

4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Abrupt Decay

4 x Thoughtseize
3 x Green Sun's Zenith
3 x Hymn to Tourach

1 x Sylvan Library

4 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Garruk Relentless // Garruk, the Veil-Cursed


Sideboard
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Containment Priest
2 x Choke
4 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 x Toxic Deluge
1 x Duress


My Opinion - It looks like a very rough draft made by looking at a suggested list from a primer -ex: Deathrite Shaman (3-4).

The Zenith package is overloaded with Zenith and the accessible toolbox doesn't make a huge impact, the land makeup and cost relations make you exceptionally clunky, and your use of white provides no real reason to use it outside of Swords... which then risks the rest of your plans. On the sideboard it looks like you could be doing better than what's offered without forcing your way into white. It doesn't touch any decks that should be looked into and instead generalizes older issues like it was made using an older primer.

If someone was going to start with this, I'd suggest...

lowering the number of Zenith and possible replace them with Traverse the Ulvenwald (I've been enjoying it). - Zenith is +:g: to play the target NOW. Traverse is pay :g: to get it, then play it whenever. Differences of what they can get aside, all that's changed between them is the mystery factor. As a Side note, Traverse also lets in the option to use grafdigger's cage to supplement the sideboard (will touch on that later).
changing the discard package to a more early approach and lower the amount. "Hymn. Hymn. I win" only works if you use speed to win. This list isn't using that. your opponent should have a good 3-5 turns or recovery before they're in danger of losing the game. There is more than enough time to come out of early discard with the current list. Zenith itself is a +1 turn card.
swapping the removal counts for Swords and Decay. Swords currently hurts your development and leaves you vulnerable to Wasteland. You're already slowing yourself down, why open yourself up to more?
adding a couple other actual threats (in green if zenith is required). If you can find things to synergize, I'd suggest varied Costs. Presently, 4/75 are actually capable of being threatening on cast (considering threatening to be +3/X). Using Zenith makes them 3@3cmc and 1@4cmc. In total your threats cost... 3@:2:, 4@:3:, 1@:4:. Any way you look at it, you're not doing anything actually threatening until turn 2.
doing something useful with the sideboard. There are tons of open slots to tinker wit. Some of the graveyard control, for example.
fixing the manabase. Going into your splash color to kill something shouldn't be game losing. Do this last since your changes may adjust the requirements.

[lavafrogg]

I don't think any of the games were particularly good. I do feel that they showed the problem that I have with the 3 color + wasteland builds and that is they have mana issues. He lost instantly to early blood moons except in the game where he drew both of his basics naturally. He won the game against delver with perfect top decks and trips wasteland, and he lost to the BUG deck with mana issues, especially with the trips hymn and quad Lilliana that he was running.

The games did showcase how strong Liliana is when she is in play which might lead me to playing the full set.

@damion- we have never had a card like Lost Legacy before, being castable on turn 2 can help steal games from dirty combo players... but until we make a discovery/wizards helps us out, combo will be a problem. That being said.. I have won plenty of combo matches in the past with the old seize-hymn-lilly combination. Feed the clan is also a good find with our good friend tarmogoyf.

If I was playing GBw I would be playing GSZ, Stoneforge and Lingering Souls with all of the grindy BUG decks around these days. I am still playing straight BG and have not missed swords to plowshares at all. My current debate is Tracker and Noxious Revival vs Vampire Hexmage and Crop Rotation but neither of those really help with the combo matchup. Hypnotic Specter has been talked about but not tested.

About the deathtouch creatures- I think they only have merit in heavy aggro metagames, which we thrive in anyway. Which leads team death touch to only being needed against Eldrazi, which is soft to Wasteland/Goyf and Lilliana, if Eldrazi is highly played the deathtouch creatures could be good, but some edict effects/dismembers are most likely better.

So far, I have not been convinced that we absolutely have to have the white splash as the best and most convincing reason is access to hatebears, which don't guarantee value against combo decks.

[Megadeus]

Nourish and Feed the Clan are awful. I'd rather play Blessed Alliance which is weaker as a life gain card, but has flexibility in being able to come in against the BUG True Name decks, burn, most other aggro, and even eldrazi

[damionblackgear]

Nourish and Feed the Clan are awful. I'd rather play Blessed Alliance which is weaker as a life gain card, but has flexibility in being able to come in against the BUG True Name decks, burn, most other aggro, and even eldrazi

Re: versatility vs power comment from earlier. You're also using white. lavafrogg is BG.

@lavafrogg, you're right. We haven't had much time with Lost Legacy and it's the first at its cost. I'm hopeful as well.

[lavafrogg]

Nourish and Feed the Clan are awful. I'd rather play Blessed Alliance which is weaker as a life gain card, but has flexibility in being able to come in against the BUG True Name decks, burn, most other aggro, and even eldrazi

In addition to what Damion said, the discussion is life gain against combo and burn. Neither of which are very good match ups and we don't really have a good plan at the moment. Utility across other match ups is good but in this instance what cards do we have to fight combo more efficiently?

[Megadeus]

Life gain against storm isn't very good. You might be able to sneak a win, but it's not good. As for burn, Scooze is solid, finks is good, obstinate baloth is good and can come in against the other BG decks. Could even just run Jitte out of the side. As for combo it depends on the deck you're trying to beat. Could also just play white leylines to answer burn and storm together

[lavafrogg]

BG just doesn't have very many options to fight the non-interactive decks in the format. I could see Dark Ritual into Lost legacy or thoughtsieze-hymn on turn one giving you a chance, but ritual doesn't help in many other match ups. The best option is the turn 2 hypnotic specter play which doesn't seem very good in the grand scheme of things.

Sadistic Sacrament could be worth a look, as 3 cards from a combo deck can be pretty brutal, but Lost Legacy is most likely better.

[Chatto]

T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 Lost Legacy, or T1 Fetch into DRS, T2 Lost Legacy. All other options are weak, and will likely lose you the game, imo. I'm playing three LL in my Nic Fit- sb. I really think it's better than more discard.

[Megadeus]

Eh, white leyline is fine if belcher, burn, and storm are what you're worried about. Lifegain like Nourish is just awful.

[lavafrogg]

T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 Lost Legacy, or T1 Fetch into DRS, T2 Lost Legacy. All other options are weak, and will likely lose you the game, imo. I'm playing three LL in my Nic Fit- sb. I really think it's better than more discard.

This. This plus Liliana has been my go to since switching to GB and this plus GSZ-Teeg has been my play for a few years now.

[lavafrogg]

I have done some research into the GB(not turbo) Depths, GB Lands, GB whatever plus Dark Depths combo, and have been pretty surprised by the overall results and also the lack of testing present. My current Rock list is only a few cards off from my Depths list so I will be staying in this thread for discussion.

With my drop down to 2 colors, I have the room for the Depths package in my mana base and crop rotation takes the slot from my personal fav, noxious revival.

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage

Disruption(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Planeswalkers(3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation

Lands(21)
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Lost Legacy
2 Marsh Casulties
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extractions
1 Diabolical Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Nihil Spellbomb

The only deck that loses matchup percentage with the Depths addition is going to be Death and Taxes, as the combo is not very good against them, on the plus side with 3 sylvan library, anyone that swords to plowshares a marit lage is going to let us draw 5 cards for free.

The combo matchup gains quite a bit as thoughtsieze into hymn into 20/20 is a reasonable plan.

Taking this out this weekend, any thoughts?

[Chatto]

List seems solid, but I'm pretty biased :smile: No love for Grim Flayer?

[lavafrogg]

List seems solid, but I'm pretty biased :smile: No love for Grim Flayer?

Slight tweaks after testing tonight:

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage

Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation

Planeswalkers(3)
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Lands(21)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgamoth
3 Wasteland
2 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Lost Legacy
2 Marsh Casulties
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extractions
1 Diabolical Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Nihil Spellbomb

This might be the best fair deck that I have played in legacy. Against other fair decks you play the normal back and forth BG game, then you EoT make a 20/20 that they cannot do anything about. In addition, none of the creatures we play can be allowed to live if the opponent loses very quickly. When your back up play is Goyf + Dark Confidant, you aren't doing that bad.

The worst card in the deck is the Hexmage, which is not a bad thing as he is how we threaten fast combo hands. Against unfair decks you have your own combo in addition to discard and beaters. I have already lived the dream of turn 1 thoughtsieze, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 hexmage + depths for the scoop, feels good.

@Chatto Grim flayer is just too slow for anything that I am trying to do. He is going to be at his best against decks that cannot block him as a 2/2, obviously, and even then he takes 3 turns to get value out of his card selection. I also wouldn't want to cut any creatures for him. Goyf is just too valuable in many matchups for being too big and dumb. The other creatures offer game winning effects and not just card selection after combat.

[lavafrogg]

Slight tweaks after testing tonight:

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage

Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation

Planeswalkers(3)
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Lands(21)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgamoth
3 Wasteland
2 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Lost Legacy
2 Marsh Casulties
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extractions
1 Diabolical Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Nihil Spellbomb

This might be the best fair deck that I have played in legacy. Against other fair decks you play the normal back and forth BG game, then you EoT make a 20/20 that they cannot do anything about. In addition, none of the creatures we play can be allowed to live if the opponent loses very quickly. When your back up play is Goyf + Dark Confidant, you aren't doing that bad.

The worst card in the deck is the Hexmage, which is not a bad thing as he is how we threaten fast combo hands. Against unfair decks you have your own combo in addition to discard and beaters. I have already lived the dream of turn 1 thoughtsieze, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 hexmage + depths for the scoop, feels good.

@Chatto Grim flayer is just too slow for anything that I am trying to do. He is going to be at his best against decks that cannot block him as a 2/2, obviously, and even then he takes 3 turns to get value out of his card selection. I also wouldn't want to cut any creatures for him. Goyf is just too valuable in many matchups for being too big and dumb. The other creatures offer game winning effects and not just card selection after combat.

The sideboard options with crop rotation are also very good. Karakas and bojuka bog give us turn 1 interaction with several decks, which gives us time to get either the combo or discard+Liliana online. I think I want to find room for the 4th rotation, but 3 might be the correct number.

[Seraphix]

I've been trying a Rock list with GSZ recently:

3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland

SB: 3x Surgical Extraction
SB: 2x Zealous Persecution
SB: 1x Abrupt Decay
SB: 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1x Reclamation Sage
SB: 1x Garruk Relentless
SB: 1x Duress
SB: 1x Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1x Pithing Needle
SB: 1x Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1x Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1x Winter Orb


While not-so-subtly inspired by GWb Maverick, I think GSZ adds a dimension of consistency to this list I often find lacking in non-Blue Rock decks.

Its possible an SFM package or Liliana of the Veil belongs here but I wanted to start with something as streamlined as possible.

[lavafrogg]

I've been trying a Rock list with GSZ recently:

3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland

SB: 3x Surgical Extraction
SB: 2x Zealous Persecution
SB: 1x Abrupt Decay
SB: 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1x Reclamation Sage
SB: 1x Garruk Relentless
SB: 1x Duress
SB: 1x Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1x Pithing Needle
SB: 1x Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1x Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1x Winter Orb


While not-so-subtly inspired by GWb Maverick, I think GSZ adds a dimension of consistency to this list I often find lacking in non-Blue Rock decks.

Its possible an SFM package or Liliana of the Veil belongs here but I wanted to start with something as streamlined as possible.

For a GBw version I would always start with what sdematt has last posted and then make changes based on personal preference/metagame. This is the last version of his that I can find:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

Personally, I think your list has too many creatures and would cut either Goyf or Knight, as they are kind of exclusive of each other. I would also go to 4 DRS and cut the heirarchs, DRS is amazing.

After that you can read pages and pages of planeswalker analysis, how much discard to run, how much removal people like, how many GSZ(personally I am always at 4 for my build as I think the card is bonkers)

I would always plan to play Miracles which means packing Libraries and Truths but the colors offer such a large selection of cards and effects.

Lastly, if you are going to be as creature heavy as you are I don't know if just playing GWb Maverick is a bad idea ie bring back the Mother of Runes and cut the goyfs.

Good Luck!

[damionblackgear]

@lavafrogg - I'd be interested in how testing goes with your list. Your manabase scares the bejesus outta me though. I looked at it and my wife said I made the "Mother of God (http://i.imgur.com/g1hG6Mg.jpg)" face.

@Seraphix - As a huge proponent of Knight, where's the WOW factor? Your Knight should be a threat in more ways than being a beat stick. Use her lands to control/win the game.

I think you're missing this for your GSZ package as well. Going lots of creatures is fine but, the point of Zenith is to give access to multiple angles for creatures to be relevant from. Yes, you have more green creatures than most other lists (I'm not a fan of the generic list) but, you also don't do anything outside of your 2 drop with them. Your 3cc is all Knights, and your 1cc is intended as all accelerates (you don't want to zenith for any of them late game). I've personally come to prefer Traverse > Zenith in most cases.

If you want the SFM package it's cost is a minimum of 4 slots. Your Mystic to equipment ratio should find a way to compliment the rest of your curve as well. I find that either 3 (1;2. when I just want redundancy for the equipment) or 5(3;2 when I want it to be a main aspect of the deck) works best for my style of play and depending on the purpose. I do think that including the package as a main aspect is too slow for the standard lists. If She's going to be a main aspect, you should be exploding Eva Green style more than traditional Rock lists. That would involve mox of some type though and then your list looks more like my style than Matt's (we have different angles on the generalized lists).

For reference and a different starting point, this was the last time I was testing both packages in a list. Seriously, make adjustments. This list wasn't the greatest thing. Lots of card testing was occurring to fix some other issues I had noticed.

7-10-15

2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Funeral Charm
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
1 Council's Judgment
1 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

2 Sylvan Library
2 Bitterblossom

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

3 Orim's Chant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Choke
1 Lingering Souls
1 Council's Judgment

[lavafrogg]

@lavafrogg - I'd be interested in how testing goes with your list. Your manabase scares the bejesus outta me though. I looked at it and my wife said I made the "Mother of God (http://i.imgur.com/g1hG6Mg.jpg)" face.



I am working on it. My two versions of my list are pretty much identical except for 3 slots and the mana base.

Set:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation

3 Lilliana of the Veil

From here I am either going the control route with:

3 Tireless Tracker

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou

or the combo route with:

3 Vampire Hexmage

3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgamoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou

At this point I am testing both this weekend and will get back with some results soon. Tracker is just so good, but so is just winning the game on turn 2/3/4.

[sdematt]

Just popping back in since apparently someone had said I was missed. I still haven't played in ages, but I'll try to attend Vegas IF I can, but most likely I cannot.

I'll post some pretty pictures when I get the chance.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Sweet list that got a top 8 last week:


Lands(23)
3 Bayou
3 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
Creatures(14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker
Spells(16)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
Other(7)
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard(15)
2 Choke
2 Containment Priest
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cagef
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Toxic Deluge


This is pretty close to what I have been working on, with White instead of straight BG, and I might be convinced to switch back to 2 colors. The Kambal out of the board is awesome in so many matchups, as well as the trips cabal pit.

[Chatto]

Sweet list that got a top 8 last week:


Lands(23)
3 Bayou
3 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
Creatures(14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker
Spells(16)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
Other(7)
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard(15)
2 Choke
2 Containment Priest
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cagef
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Toxic Deluge


This is pretty close to what I have been working on, with White instead of straight BG, and I might be convinced to switch back to 2 colors. The Kambal out of the board is awesome in so many matchups, as well as the trips cabal pit.

Nice list indeed. Three TT, i like it :smile:

[lavafrogg]

Nice list indeed. Three TT, i like it :smile:

Tireless tracker is so good. Always make sure to save a land/fetch for him in the mid-late game and he will always at least 2-1 your opponent if not much worse.

I am back to tracker builds for now, the dark depths combo is strong, but makes for some awkward draws. Current testing is focused around grim flayer, he makes bad matchups better... but also takes away points on some good matchups. He is also super slow, which matters in certain matchups where we would want his ability(combo).

[Claymore]

3x Cabal Pit, wtf.

The deck does seem to run fairly low on the curve, only 3 TT, 4 Liliana, 1 Garruk, but 3 Pits seems excessive. I could see subbing in an Urborg or two to give it Swamp mode and save some life.

[CptHaddock]

3x Cabal Pit, wtf.

The deck does seem to run fairly low on the curve, only 3 TT, 4 Liliana, 1 Garruk, but 3 Pits seems excessive. I could see subbing in an Urborg or two to give it Swamp mode and save some life.

You gotta do what you gotta do to kill that mirran crusader.

[maharis]

You gotta do what you gotta do to kill that mirran crusader.

Imagine the trauma of a man who has seen Mom into Crusader enough to mainboard three Cabal Pits.

[KrzyMoose]

Hey all, with GP: Las Vegas coming up, I finally have an excuse to get myself back into Legacy. It's been several years since I last played, and even longer since I played seriously. Junk was the last deck I played, and I really enjoyed it, so I figure I might as well start here. My list is very straightforward (and relatively the same as it was 2 years ago):

22 Land - 10 Fetches, 4 Basics, 4 Duals, 3 Wasteland, 1 Karakas

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

I'm going to be grinding this out in MODO Leagues (when MM3 comes out...hopefully Liliana and Goyfs drop a bit), so I'm looking at a pretty generic metagame (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online).

A couple questions on the maindeck:
1. I think I want a Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck (good against Entreat, Jace, Eldrazi dudes, whatever random nonsense), but I'm not sure what to cut. I could see cutting an Abrupt Decay, since Miracles seems to be shaving CBs and Mentors. I could also see cutting an SFM, since I'm only running 2 Equipments. Anyone have any thoughts?
2. How good is Hymn to Tourach nowadays? Is running just 2 of them worth it?
3. I'm wondering how good Batterskull actually is currently, as well. I'm thinking about cutting it for Sword of War and Peace, which seems like it's stronger against Miracles, DnT, Burn, and random Combo decks. It probably does make me weaker against Eldrazi and various BUG decks, though.

As for the SB, here's my starting place:
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers (some combo of EE/Toxic Deluge/Marsh Casualties/Zealous Persecution)
SB: 4 Assorted GY hate (some combo of Leyline/Crypt/Surgical/Faerie Macabre/Whatever)
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

I'm not sure about the Chokes, but until I get more data, this is what I'll start with. I'm sure there are way better things I could be doing, I just have no idea what they are.

Any thoughts/criticisms/help is appreciated!

[Tokugawa]

Hey all, with GP: Las Vegas coming up, I finally have an excuse to get myself back into Legacy. It's been several years since I last played, and even longer since I played seriously. Junk was the last deck I played, and I really enjoyed it, so I figure I might as well start here. My list is very straightforward (and relatively the same as it was 2 years ago):

22 Land - 10 Fetches, 4 Basics, 4 Duals, 3 Wasteland, 1 Karakas

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

I'm going to be grinding this out in MODO Leagues (when MM3 comes out...hopefully Liliana and Goyfs drop a bit), so I'm looking at a pretty generic metagame (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online).

A couple questions on the maindeck:
1. I think I want a Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck (good against Entreat, Jace, Eldrazi dudes, whatever random nonsense), but I'm not sure what to cut. I could see cutting an Abrupt Decay, since Miracles seems to be shaving CBs and Mentors. I could also see cutting an SFM, since I'm only running 2 Equipments. Anyone have any thoughts?
2. How good is Hymn to Tourach nowadays? Is running just 2 of them worth it?
3. I'm wondering how good Batterskull actually is currently, as well. I'm thinking about cutting it for Sword of War and Peace, which seems like it's stronger against Miracles, DnT, Burn, and random Combo decks. It probably does make me weaker against Eldrazi and various BUG decks, though.

As for the SB, here's my starting place:
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers (some combo of EE/Toxic Deluge/Marsh Casualties/Zealous Persecution)
SB: 4 Assorted GY hate (some combo of Leyline/Crypt/Surgical/Faerie Macabre/Whatever)
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

I'm not sure about the Chokes, but until I get more data, this is what I'll start with. I'm sure there are way better things I could be doing, I just have no idea what they are.

Any thoughts/criticisms/help is appreciated!

Hymn is good, but if you play full 4 copies of it, you will have about…22 2cc spells. That's too crowd. So 4 seize/2 Hymn is…OK. Also, shaving 1 sfm is acceptable for the same reason.

If you need a sword, SoFaI is always the no.1 choice, against an unknown meta.

[lavafrogg]

Hey all, with GP: Las Vegas coming up, I finally have an excuse to get myself back into Legacy. It's been several years since I last played, and even longer since I played seriously. Junk was the last deck I played, and I really enjoyed it, so I figure I might as well start here. My list is very straightforward (and relatively the same as it was 2 years ago):

22 Land - 10 Fetches, 4 Basics, 4 Duals, 3 Wasteland, 1 Karakas

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

I'm going to be grinding this out in MODO Leagues (when MM3 comes out...hopefully Liliana and Goyfs drop a bit), so I'm looking at a pretty generic metagame (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online).

A couple questions on the maindeck:
1. I think I want a Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck (good against Entreat, Jace, Eldrazi dudes, whatever random nonsense), but I'm not sure what to cut. I could see cutting an Abrupt Decay, since Miracles seems to be shaving CBs and Mentors. I could also see cutting an SFM, since I'm only running 2 Equipments. Anyone have any thoughts?
2. How good is Hymn to Tourach nowadays? Is running just 2 of them worth it?
3. I'm wondering how good Batterskull actually is currently, as well. I'm thinking about cutting it for Sword of War and Peace, which seems like it's stronger against Miracles, DnT, Burn, and random Combo decks. It probably does make me weaker against Eldrazi and various BUG decks, though.

As for the SB, here's my starting place:
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers (some combo of EE/Toxic Deluge/Marsh Casualties/Zealous Persecution)
SB: 4 Assorted GY hate (some combo of Leyline/Crypt/Surgical/Faerie Macabre/Whatever)
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

I'm not sure about the Chokes, but until I get more data, this is what I'll start with. I'm sure there are way better things I could be doing, I just have no idea what they are.

Any thoughts/criticisms/help is appreciated!

It has always been my opinion that you need to play goyf OR mystic not both of them together. Mystic turns all of your dorks into clocks lessening the need for the big green menace.

[CptHaddock]

lavafrogg, how'd your testing with combo rock? The 2 matchups which i'd be interested in are D&T and miracles. I feel like miracles is very hit or miss, normally it just comes down to us drawing slightly better than them. I've yet to win the D&T matchup, although my sample size here is very small.

I have been busy for the last couple of weeks and was unable to make the locals with Rock (Goyf and Lili are also too expensive online :frown:), hopefully I can make it this week and try the deck out. Once Lili and Goyfs get a little cheaper online I think i'm going to build a version of this deck online.

[lavafrogg]

lavafrogg, how'd your testing with combo rock? The 2 matchups which i'd be interested in are D&T and miracles. I feel like miracles is very hit or miss, normally it just comes down to us drawing slightly better than them. I've yet to win the D&T matchup, although my sample size here is very small.

I have been busy for the last couple of weeks and was unable to make the locals with Rock (Goyf and Lili are also too expensive online :frown:), hopefully I can make it this week and try the deck out. Once Lili and Goyfs get a little cheaper online I think i'm going to build a version of this deck online.

What list have you been playing?

Currently I have been sleeving up:

Lands(25)
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures(12)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage

Engine(7)
3 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library

Spells(16)
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation

Sideboard(15)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Tsunami
3 Lost Legacy
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Fatal Push
3 Tireless Tracker

The miracles match up has been very good to me with Boseiju into Tsunami in the board, which usually leaves the blue deck with no lands, or just 1-2 basic plains. They cannot afford to swords the token, as I am running 3 Sylvan Library, and Liliana usually leaves them with an active top as their only hand for most of the game finally, Hexmage deals with Jace quite nicely.

The Death and Taxes match-up is really hand dependent. They run a lot of cards that mess with the combo but also do not run any manipulation or card draw so they can be susceptible to different avenues of attack depending on their hands. Revokers have to name the stage, hexmage, Liliana or cabal pit. They have 4 swords for the token but also have to deal with Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman. Game 2 we get to bring in all the removal/sweepers we want and they typically get to bring in grave hate and prayer. That being said, you can just lose. The deck is very good at drawing hands that completely invalidate anything you wanted to do. I think we are the aggro deck in the matchup as eventually they will have an unbeatable boardstate with Karakas/Vial/Flickerwisp/Mom/whoknowswhatelse, so you just have to remember that you have to keep early interaction and fast hands.

If Death and Taxes is super present in your meta, I think you just overboard into removal and kill everything they would ever want to play.

[damionblackgear]

Are you counting depths as spells? I'm assuming yes. Why not cut a combination of 2 depth/stage and a hymn for 3 diamonds? Would speed you up a little, help fix your colors, and wouldn't hurt your early game development. There aren't many generic Mana symbols there. Side note, gives you a very small 1st turn 20/20 - 2mox, 3lands, hex, rotation (Belcher much?).

Against D&T you're definitely typically not going to be the agro. You are on the clock vs their utility and resilience. I really want to suggest night of souls betrayal because it's a permanent effect against them but, it hurts you just as much. I don't want to suggest dread of night since it wouldn't help most anywhere else. You'd really want something either permanent or reusable vs them.

[Chatto]

I would suggest the dreaded Engineered Plague.

[lavafrogg]

I would suggest the dreaded Engineered Plague.

Plague is a great sweeper in the right meta, if you see tons of death and taxes and elves for example, but I find that other sweepers have more use in more matchups.

[JackaBo]

E plague is also an answer to TNN who is a real plague these days.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[lavafrogg]

Are you counting depths as spells? I'm assuming yes. Why not cut a combination of 2 depth/stage and a hymn for 3 diamonds? Would speed you up a little, help fix your colors, and wouldn't hurt your early game development. There aren't many generic Mana symbols there. Side note, gives you a very small 1st turn 20/20 - 2mox, 3lands, hex, rotation (Belcher much?).

Against D&T you're definitely typically not going to be the aggro. You are on the clock vs their utility and resilience. I really want to suggest night of souls betrayal because it's a permanent effect against them but, it hurts you just as much. I don't want to suggest dread of night since it wouldn't help most anywhere else. You'd really want something either permanent or reusable vs them.

I am only talking about my current Rock-Depths, or Dark Rock if you will, as you should beat the tar out of DnT with any standard BG(w/r) list.

I am stating that you are the aggressive deck because eventually, they will have too many answers and you will not have a way to win the game, especially game one. Swords/Karakas/Flickerwisp/Serra Avengers/Batterskull/Jitte/Revoker all make it very difficult to win a long game 1 against DnT. Your best bet is to keep a hand with discard and hope you can clear out any hate and that an early 20/20 is enough. Game 2 is much easier as we are running plenty of lands and we can bring in lots of removal and sweepers to go along with our discard and Lilianas. We have no where enough answers game 1 to even pretend to play the control role and besides a strange discard-discard-lilliana and they blank on top decks, I can see game one being quick no matter who wins.

@damion diamonds are an option, but I do not see much value as this isn't an "all in" combo deck like the straight Dark Depths lists. Ideally we can cast a few discard spells to make sure the way is clear. In certain match ups the added speed could be a thing but I also imagine those match ups are either already favorable, or terrible no matter what we do. I am running 3 Urborg for the potential turn 2 token, after a thoughtsieze hopefully. we have 4 hexmage 3 depths 3 urborg and 4 crop rotation to help that along. I also might want diamonds if I took out the Deathrite Shaman and went for a more life from the loam route... ie chalice of the void.

As for sweepers- play toxic deluge, explosives and golgari charm/marsh casualties they all have other applications and are not as narrow as engineered plague. It would take a very specific meta for plague to be worth it.

[enmitee]

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

This is what I'm running. As always, I find Liliana extremely lackluster most of the time, since ditching cards sucks, but with Lingering Souls, it's obviously breaking parity there. My thought to that are moreso along the lines of "fuck it" and I'm running more card draw, since Liliana doesn't beat Miracles, but drawing more cards certainly can.

I think I'm fine cutting back to two Equipment, but I guess there's always the option of going down a discard slot, perhaps cutting Hymn entirely and just maxing Therapies, then playing another Sword of bringing back the Batterskull. Uncertain, but I can't get in a ton of games to test. Cutting Fire and Ice seems pretty iffy, considering it's the best Sword. If the new black STP gives Shardless a ton of ground, going back to SoLaS/SoFF or just a second Jitte seems good as well, but I'd never cut SoFI.

My two cents. Merry Xmas/Happy New Year/etc.

Running this exact 61 and it's been going great! Question: Any update on the sideboard? And one question, when is the Sylvan Safekeeper brought in?

[sdematt]

Running this exact 61 and it's been going great! Question: Any update on the sideboard? And one question, when is the Sylvan Safekeeper brought in?

Hey there!

When you want to keep Teeg alive, or in the Decay/STP Mirror (ex. BUG midrange, Shardless, etc.) or to get around Maze etc., but not typically against Mana denial.

One card I would have loved to include was Loam.

How's the Miracles matchup treating you? 9 cards to bring in, likely taking out 3 Hymn, 3 STP, and 3 Goyf.

[enmitee]

Hey there!

When you want to keep Teeg alive, or in the Decay/STP Mirror (ex. BUG midrange, Shardless, etc.) or to get around Maze etc., but not typically against Mana denial.

One card I would have loved to include was Loam.

How's the Miracles matchup treating you? 9 cards to bring in, likely taking out 3 Hymn, 3 STP, and 3 Goyf.

I actually ran this list at a GPT last weekend. 6 rounds and faced the Miracles MU twice, sadly I ended up going 4-2, losing my first 2 rounds to Burn and Maverick. I won both matches and sideboarded a little differently.

IIRC it was

-3 Goyf
-1 Jitte
-1 Ooze
-1 Hymn
-2 STP

+2 CHoke
+2 Needle
+1 Garruk
+3 Surgical

I kept an STP because I saw Mentors in both lists. To be fair, I brought in the Sylvan Safekeeper in game 2 against Maverick. :)

[sdematt]

And how did that boarding work out for ya? Let me know how Surgical was. I feel like keeping Hymn in is plain wrong, considering how often they're playing off the Top. Many Miracles contemporaries agree to generally board out discard. I think keeping small amount of interaction is fine, but if you need the slots, then remove them.

I feel like ooze can at least battle Snapcaster if need be.

Burn is a poor matchup; Maverick is pretty 50/50.

[CptHaddock]

What list have you been playing?


Pretty "stock" list. Got rid of a bunch of my life from the loam shenanigans and cleaned up the manabase a little. I kind of miss having treetop village as a way to threaten planeswalkers but I just don't think the card is good.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker

3 Fatal Push
1 Life from the Loam
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond

2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath


I actually ran this list at a GPT last weekend. 6 rounds and faced the Miracles MU twice, sadly I ended up going 4-2, losing my first 2 rounds to Burn and Maverick. I won both matches and sideboarded a little differently.

IIRC it was

-3 Goyf
-1 Jitte
-1 Ooze
-1 Hymn
-2 STP

+2 CHoke
+2 Needle
+1 Garruk
+3 Surgical

I kept an STP because I saw Mentors in both lists. To be fair, I brought in the Sylvan Safekeeper in game 2 against Maverick. :)

Your boarding is a little strange to me, I think you're cutting a lot a of threats and not really replacing all of them with more resilient ones postboard. In general you want all your cards to be individually strong. I'd cut all the swords since you aren't going to have many targets for them and most of the time your creatures aren't going to be killed by snapcaster or clique, if you are really worried about mentor I would keep in the jitte as well so you have a way of dealing with him although you also have a deluge postboard you can bring in to deal with him. If you're cutting the jitte, you can also probably go down 1 SFM. I'd cut the hymns since now the predict versions can easily make up for the card disadvantage and you really don't want to be spending a full turn hymning your opponent. I'm kind of torn on the therapies since with the predict versions becoming more popular miracles players will generally have full or close to full hands towards the mid to late game.

I'd bring in 2 teegs, 2 chokes, 1 bitterblossom, 2 pithing needle and 1 garruk and maybe 1 deluge in exchange for -3 swords, -2 therapies, -3 hymns. I don't like surgicals against fair decks so I personally wouldn't bring it in.

[Hanni]

Pretty "stock" list. Got rid of a bunch of my life from the loam shenanigans and cleaned up the manabase a little. I kind of miss having treetop village as a way to threaten planeswalkers but I just don't think the card is good.

Not really that relevant to this thread, but I think Nantuko Monastery is better than Treetop Village unless you really need the extra green source.

[aspsnake]

Not really that relevant to this thread, but I think Nantuko Monastery is better than Treetop Village unless you really need the extra green source.

Nantuko's "Threshold" requirement can be a problem - especially if opponent is running DRS.

[enmitee]

@sdematt

My bad! I mistyped my board, i had 2 Teegs and 1 Surgical in place of the 3 Surgicals from what I posted earlier. The surgical was borderline. I did grab a terminus with it in one match but I was already winning that game.

I never really thought about Hymns that way. Would you say the same about keeping in Cabal Therapy as well?

@Cpthaddock

Yes, there were 2 Teegs after board. (read above) I like your sideboard plan and I'll make sure to try it out when the MU arises. I just felt like in some games, goyf was the worst card in the match up and the amount of draw we have would make up for the lack of threats. I like keeping the number of SFMs the same just to get sword out.

[lavafrogg]

Back to straight GB Tireless Tracker as the Depths Combo was a little too counter able to depend on every game. I wish black disruption was a little better...

Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tireless Tracker

Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach

Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay

Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation

Planeswalkers(3)
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Lands(21)
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rain forest
4 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog

[danpo]

Howdy! I’m something like 10-4-2 with this list at my local (20+ people) in recent weeks.

2 Mom
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Stoneforge
2 Goyf
2 Lingering Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 SoF&I
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Brupt
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept

SB
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Choke


The wins as I recall are:
- Miracles (twice)
- D&T (twice)
- Non-Shardless BUG (twice)
- Elves
- Infect
- Daretti Stax
- B/R Reanimator

The losses I remember are:
- Burn
- Storm
- Shardless
- RUG Delver

I realize some of my list’s numbers look weird, but my meta has a lot of D&T and a lot of hate for it, so I’m trying to limit my reliance on x/1 white creatures and the graveyard so as not to get blown out by Dread of Night or Rest in Peace.

Also, the basics have been better than they probably look. With so much Wasteland running around in my meta and numerous players with ways to recur it, all three basics were instrumental in beating decks like Daretti Stax.

So far the miser’s Karakas hasn’t had much opportunity to shine, and I sometimes board it out, but I don’t feel ravenous to replace it.

Also Kaya is insane against Miracles and just a really fun Magic card in general. It makes creatures go away, kills people outside combat, generates card advantage, and generally forces opponents to read. Yay.

Hope that’s helpful! Do a buncha a weird stuff.

[sdematt]

Doing weird shit is always a legit game plan.

I am also curious about building a BWg tokens deck, starring Lingering Souls, Humility, BB, and maindeck Zealous. Seems like the tits against all these BUG decks.

[enmitee]

Doing weird shit is always a legit game plan.

I am also curious about building a BWg tokens deck, starring Lingering Souls, Humility, BB, and maindeck Zealous. Seems like the tits against all these BUG decks.


I eagerly await a list to test this out! :)

[lavafrogg]

You would also get 4x Cabal Therapy to help against combo/control.

Only real creatures being DRS and Bob and humility is actually gg against most of the current format.... this could be ideas...

[KoDiamonds]

So Senseis Diving Top is banned... aka new control decks are going to be popping up, which will probably change a lot of our slots. Heres my current list.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (7)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution

I think the main thing now is Abrupt Decay is no longer a 4 of in our list since Counterbalance died. What to replace it with? I think it depends on what the new control decks look like. Humility Landstill? U/XX Walker control? Maybe we need Maelstrom Pulses in the main for sure now?

Garruk Relentless seems cuttable now from the sideboard since theres no more miracles, unless it becomes great vs the new control decks. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

Killing stuff without getting Dazed is still a thing, though. I played in 2012 to my only cool finish, and Miracles, at that time, was only a growing presence. I played zero Miracles that day, and Decay was still an all star.

I think we come out way ahead with this ban, and sideboarding against Elves and Combo becomes more important. Elves likely becomes Tier 1 now, so prep your Cages and Zealous Persecutions. As for control decks rising, consider various forms of Blade and Landstill to be at least be tested in the coming months.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

So Senseis Diving Top is banned... aka new control decks are going to be popping up, which will probably change a lot of our slots. Heres my current list.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (7)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution

I think the main thing now is Abrupt Decay is no longer a 4 of in our list since Counterbalance died. What to replace it with? I think it depends on what the new control decks look like. Humility Landstill? U/XX Walker control? Maybe we need Maelstrom Pulses in the main for sure now?

Garruk Relentless seems cuttable now from the sideboard since theres no more miracles, unless it becomes great vs the new control decks. Thoughts?

Abrupt Decay is still an all star in killing delivers and equipment all day long, I don't think they are cuttable.

[Tokugawa]

Each copy of other removal spell which replaced an AD, would make equipment/Lingering souls kits stronger.

I dream all my opponents replace their 4 ADs with other cards(e.g. Fatal push) after SDT ban.

[KoDiamonds]

Killing stuff without getting Dazed is still a thing, though. I played in 2012 to my only cool finish, and Miracles, at that time, was only a growing presence. I played zero Miracles that day, and Decay was still an all star.

I think we come out way ahead with this ban, and sideboarding against Elves and Combo becomes more important. Elves likely becomes Tier 1 now, so prep your Cages and Zealous Persecutions. As for control decks rising, consider various forms of Blade and Landstill to be at least be tested in the coming months.

-Matt

I hope youre right about us coming out ahead after the ban. I dont mind playing miracles every round so I am not sure what decks Miracles kept in check (like combo ie sneak and show) that would prey on us.

I already have 2 Persecutions in the board. Do you think Cages are necessary? What would you change in my sideboard for the pending meta?

[damionblackgear]

I don't think this is huge for most here since a lot of people had stopped playing Top in favor of Library. As for decks, I would expect much of a change in meta just yet. Everything that existed then had to adapt to other things that came since then as well and those things still​ exist. If anything I think people will end up with more space in their boards and a couple of decks have to find x replacements for top (not too many decks still used it).

As far as lists and things to do with it, I'm going to be trying the new Gideon. I think he shows potential. I've also switched back to my Mox frame to help speed up since the faster re-animator is aiming to make us discard our hand and counters the first spell we play. Man-lands are a legacy from Miracles. I'm keeping then for testing. The deck didn't have issues with the pre-ban so I'm not that expecting issues post-ban.

I'll try to clean this up later. Posting from my phone. (done)

[Claymore]

I dont mind playing miracles every round so I am not sure what decks Miracles kept in check (like combo ie sneak and show) that would prey on us.


On the first part, the interesting post I read was that Miracles actually kept Fair decks in check with the main deck 1 mana instant speed wrath, and then it was able to overload the sideboard with counterspells to deal with combo. I think we'll see the likes of TES, Elves, High Tide come out of the wood work. And a surge of Show and Tell, since that's the next easiest deck to play for the Legacy grinder who lost their Miracles deck.

[KoDiamonds]

On the first part, the interesting post I read was that Miracles actually kept Fair decks in check with the main deck 1 mana instant speed wrath, and then it was able to overload the sideboard with counterspells to deal with combo. I think we'll see the likes of TES, Elves, High Tide come out of the wood work. And a surge of Show and Tell, since that's the next easiest deck to play for the Legacy grinder who lost their Miracles deck.
Miracles always had problems with Lingering Souls. Them Terminusing 1/2 a Lingering Souls is a winning proposition. Plus, access to 4 Abrupt Decay means we can cast our spells through Counterbalance and Choke + Chains + Garruk means post board only gets better.

TES, Elves, High Tide, and Show and Tell seems bad for us. Like really bad. Might have to make room in the board for Containment Priest vs Elves and Show and Tell. Maybe cut a Thalia?

For now, maybe Garruk isnt needed until the dust settles and we can see which planeswalker is best vs the new various control decks?

[Claymore]

Thalia/Canonist will be strong against the Omni Show Decks, Knight and Priest against the Sneak and Show. The white hate bear of choice will depend on the meta you expect I think. Discard gets better.

I do think Toxic Deluge will have to come mainboard though.

Maybe Ulvenwald Tracker can make a return against all these midrange decks we expect? Toss in an Obliterator for BG Rock? Or is that for Maverick...

[tescrin]

Each copy of other removal spell which replaced an AD, would make equipment/Lingering souls kits stronger.

I dream all my opponents replace their 4 ADs with other cards(e.g. Fatal push) after SDT ban.

A lot of people are saying this, as if AD is the only Artifact destruction in the game. Let's get real for a minute. Personally this opens the door in my own brewing for
* Bant -> I can go back to running a bunch of QPMs and use different removal
* Bant, Uxxg, or simliar -> Could swap to Rec Sage for CA
* Grixis, Jund, etc.. -> Kolaghan's Command, Ancient Grudge becomes a thing here too..

and I'm still looking for all the other Artifact destruction cards I've been neglecting because they're useless against top, but offer CA and whatnot. I don't think we'll see much Natural-Whatever because at 1-mana it gets counter by chalice, which is the next big hurdle for things.

While AD has a place, it does miss a fair amount of the meta, or hits it imperfectly. I think you'll be whining if every AD in the game becomes Kolaghan's, as you'll start getting 2-for-1'd regularly.


-Other thoughts..-
Honestly; I think this deck, Bant, and D&T will see a lot more Mirran Crusader to eat BUG decks alive if they actually do spam the format. Even Bant has good motivation over TNN when you look at Equips/Exalted. Mirran Crusader: The Format could easily be a thing heading our direction to punish Elves and BUG while being great against non-grixis Delver. Again, Hierarch/QPM -> Crusader is a brutal clock and while it's blocked by TNN (lol) Junk (and other decks) have been beating TNNs for quite a while.


Also, I imagine people's thoughts here on Leovold is he's just a 3/3 Baleful Strix that you control when he gives them a card? Is there anything else you've learned in that MU?




EDIT:
Actually, since this deck is pretty Wild West, I figure I'll say another brewing item I've been heavily considering: Entomb.
I think you guys should be running blossoms, as they were fantastic for me most of the time, as the 2/2 you get on goyf if it dies is big. Though more lifeloss can be a pain and you can't discard to lily in a nice way.

That said, mixing 1x Blossom, 1x Loam, and if you're a fucking nut, 1x Brawn or Filth, with a 1-2x Entomb... you can be sitting on some nasty Tempo, lock-out, or anti-TNN plans all for the price of 1-mana. I'm still figuring out what deck I'll try it with, but I'm really thinking an entomb package in BGx will give Goyf a chance to shine big time, and that threatening a Loam Lockout reliably while only having 1x in the deck seems drool worthy. But I love tutor effects [I still run an etutor package in any white deck]

[Megadeus]

A lot of people are saying this, as if AD is the only Artifact destruction in the game. Let's get real for a minute. Personally this opens the door in my own brewing for
* Bant -> I can go back to running a bunch of QPMs and use different removal
* Bant, Uxxg, or simliar -> Could swap to Rec Sage for CA
* Grixis, Jund, etc.. -> Kolaghan's Command, Ancient Grudge becomes a thing here too..

and I'm still looking for all the other Artifact destruction cards I've been neglecting because they're useless against top, but offer CA and whatnot. I don't think we'll see much Natural-Whatever because at 1-mana it gets counter by chalice, which is the next big hurdle for things.

While AD has a place, it does miss a fair amount of the meta, or hits it imperfectly. I think you'll be whining if every AD in the game becomes Kolaghan's, as you'll start getting 2-for-1'd regularly.


-Other thoughts..-
Honestly; I think this deck, Bant, and D&T will see a lot more Mirran Crusader to eat BUG decks alive if they actually do spam the format. Even Bant has good motivation over TNN when you look at Equips/Exalted. Mirran Crusader: The Format could easily be a thing heading our direction to punish Elves and BUG while being great against non-grixis Delver. Again, Hierarch/QPM -> Crusader is a brutal clock and while it's blocked by TNN (lol) Junk (and other decks) have been beating TNNs for quite a while.


Also, I imagine people's thoughts here on Leovold is he's just a 3/3 Baleful Strix that you control when he gives them a card? Is there anything else you've learned in that MU?
I've learned with my version that between lingering souls and Rhino's I give approximately 0 fucks about Leovold and True Name for the most part. SOmehow as a non blue deck my actual biggest worry is Leovold turning off my painful truths

[CptHaddock]

I've learned with my version that between lingering souls and Rhino's I give approximately 0 fucks about Leovold and True Name for the most part. SOmehow as a non blue deck my actual biggest worry is Leovold turning off my painful truths

Leo/TNN only go so far when you're throwing tireless trackers, kotrs and goyfs are your opponent non stop.

[tescrin]

I've learned with my version that between lingering souls and Rhino's I give approximately 0 fucks about Leovold and True Name for the most part. SOmehow as a non blue deck my actual biggest worry is Leovold turning off my painful truths

I forgot about Rein-Ho [I'd be pretty happy to get mine altered to reinhardts ha. I'm sure a better name for that mashup can be achieved as well..]

He's actually looking quite good at the moment as everyone has small butts. I may have to start nic-fitting again for the first time in *years.* Those miracles players always kept me from going back.

[KoDiamonds]

So after some pondering, ill probably cut a 4th Abrupt Decay for a 3rd Hymn to Tourach to combat the potential influx in combo. What do you guys think?

[MrFrowny_]

So after some pondering, ill probably cut a 4th Abrupt Decay for a 3rd Hymn to Tourach to combat the potential influx in combo. What do you guys think?

I agree with you, I'd do the same. Are you running 1-mana hand disruption too?

[KoDiamonds]

I agree with you, I'd do the same. Are you running 1-mana hand disruption too?
Yessir! A full playset of Thoughtseize main.

[Jain_Mor]

Yo, Megadeus, could you post your list please?

And anyone else that wants to chime in? There's a 120+ tournament tomorrow with tickets to Vegas on the line + duals and since tops banned I'm attending. Shifting between nic fit with deeds or rock with a clock and wastelands.

[MrFrowny_]

Yo, Megadeus, could you post your list please?

And anyone else that wants to chime in? There's a 120+ tournament tomorrow with tickets to Vegas on the line + duals and since tops banned I'm attending. Shifting between nic fit with deeds or rock with a clock and wastelands.

I think you should run whatever you're familiar with. But my personal preference would be Rock because since the banning of top, people are expecting fast combo like turbo depths, storm variants, and reanimator. And having a decent amount of cheap discard and a quick clock seems good at the moment(And you don't get fucked my Leovold). Also Nic Fit notoriously has a bad combo matchup because it takes a few turns to set up and by then they've already won.

But that's just my two cents, just play what you know and you should do fine :)

[Jain_Mor]

137 players, biggest non-GP legacy tournament in the U.K. (Take note wotc.. legacy is growing here) went 6-2 in Swiss, came 10th, (9th place was 19 points!) played single elimination with places 16th to 9th, lost in "finals" there to win a revised volcanic island for my troubles, final record 8-3, pretty happy.

I'll post list tomorrow for those interested, and I'll write matchups and thoughts later in the week, again for those interested. Played two main deck zealous persecution, they were pretty good.

[Jain_Mor]

Sorry for the delay!

So the event was awesome, 137 players = 8 rounds of swiss. 1st place prize was plane ticket, hotel and byes for GP Vegas. 2-8th get playsets of revised duals. 9-16th get their own single elimination bracket to compete for an underground sea and a volcanic island. 17-24th get their own single elimination bracket to compete for a tundra and a bayou.

I made my deck the night before after thinking about the expected metagame (elves, D&D, show n tell, storm, reanimator, TNN, pyromancer, leovald, baleful strix, SFM, and delver) and drawing up mana curve spreadsheets. I decided that I wanted to be as fast as possible for a junk deck, that I wanted to have an out to most decks main deck, as well as a quick-ish clock, card advantage and discard. I also decided that given the expected metagame and given its a pseudo burn spell against combo, some zealous persecution would be better than some abrupt decay. So this is what I settled on:

20 zero-drops:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heaths
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

21 one-drops:
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village

13 two-drops:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

6 three-drops:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest In Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Lost Legacy
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Garruk Relentless

I won't explain all my thoughts, but feel free to ask about any choices I made if you like.

My main intent was to always doing be something on T1 and to maximise my chances of T2 liliana or T2 gsun for gaddock teeg. I think SFM is bad right now (to slow and bad against combo), but equipment can still be good, so I was relying on my bobs and librarys to draw into them naturally instead. Equipment also means dryad abor isnt useless and makes treetop pretty great when you're top decking etc. I wanted to play hymn to tourach and lingering souls too.. but no space.

Sideboard is just flexible combo hate plus some card advantage cards for the midrange matchups.

The Tournament:

Round 1: Elves. WIN, Record: 1-0 (2-0 in games)
G1: I have a zealous persecution in hand and feel pretty good about my deck decisions. I use it a bit early possibly and my opponent rebuilds, luckily I have two dark confidants in play and draw my second main deck persecution, to my opponent's disbelief (a common theme throughout the day) and plague wind and attack for lethal.

Sideboard: -2 decay, =1 pridemage, -3 liliana, -1 knight, -1 tracker. +6 hatebears, +2 toxic deluge

G2: Just deluge and equip a jitte for the win.

Round 2: D&T. WIN, Record: 2-0 (4-0 in games)
G1: An abundance of discard stops him from doing anything then DRSs slowly finish him off.

Sideboard: -2 IoK, -1 Teeg, -2 Liliana. +1 Rec Sage, +2 Deluge, +2 Garruk

G2: Discard + deluge slows him down and then garruk and jitte finish him off.

Round 3: Dark Bant Blade. WIN, Record: 3-0 (6-1 in games)
G1: I mulligan and stick 1 one land and drs, its a close game but I'm always on the back foot.

Sideboard: -1 Teeg, -2 Iok. +1 Rec sage, +2 deluge.

G2: He mulligans, I wasteland and DRS and I win because he is always on the back foot
G3: Close game, lots of trading and card advantage either way. He endx up with an active jace for 4 turns and should have won, but I pull back with a timely zealous persecution, a liliana and drs equipped with jitte attacking for lethal in last turn of extra time. Crazy top decks.

Round 4: Czech Pile. LOSE, Record: 3-1 (7-3 in games)
G1: He just has so much card advantage. I make some misplays by playing creatures in the wrong order knowing he has kolghans command in hand, I wish I had a troll ascetic or thrun to get with my green sun zenith.

Sideboard: -2 Iok, -1 TS, -1 Teeg. +2 deluge, +2 Garruk.

G2: I pull a head with bob and finish with treetop village. Persecution super useful for getting rid of strixes.
G3: I get out valued but am ahead on board with a liliana and treetop village and a liliana and one other card in hand against his nothing and 2 cards in hand. I can either cast a fresh liliana and discard us to make her loyalty 4 or attack with treetop and and tick up liliana in play to 2. I decide to be aggressive, we both discard to liliana, I attack, he takes the damage, I tick up end of turn he flashes in snapcaster and fatal pushes my treetop village, then attacks and kills me liliana, I draw nothing good and he cast command to get back a leovold, GG.

Round 5: Grixis Delver. WIN, Record: 4-1 (9-4 in games)
G1: Was close, he has delvers, TNN and DRS. I use removal and end up with a pridemage equipped with jitte and a drs, but I think that I'm dead on board to his TNN attack and drs activation so I scoop. As I go to sideboard I realise I could have used the last counter on my jitte to survive from the drs activation and would stabalise on the crack back, so he cant attack and my drs will neuter his when I untap... I nearly always play games out but since the last two matches went to time I shortcutted, stupid.

Sideboard: -2 Ts, -1 teeg, -1 pridemage. +2 deluge +2 Garruk

G2: I get early DRS and a few wastelands and beat down with goyf, feels good.
G3: Close game but I get to deluge his creatures and then later equip treetop with jitte to overcome his gurmag angler.

Round 6: D&T. LOSE, Record: 4-2 (10-6 in games)
G1: I Inquisiton turn 1 and he has port, wasteland, 4 creatures and a vial, no white sources. So I thank the magic gods for another zealous persecution matchup, take the vial and cruise to victory.

G2: I keep an awkward mana hand and he punishes me, feels bad.
G3: I mulligan and never get to toxic deluge mana or the right colours for persecution in hand, feels really bad. D&T just kept me off mana well enough. Wish I had a plains instead of karakas maybe. Dissapointed to lose to D&T but matchups can't be 100%.

Round 7: Mono White Stax. WIN, Record: 5-2 (12-7 in games)
G1: STP stops his tabernacle man, and DRS stops his wasteland lock, gsun for pridemage stops smoke stack and bob attacks and keeps cards coming.

Sideboard: -2 IoK, -2 persecution, -1 Jitte, -1 SofaI. +2 surgical, +1 rest in peace (a mistake I think) +1 rec sage, +2 garruk

G2: I end up having to defend against two early batterskulls after thoughtsiezing badly. I get my tireless tracker down but I miss a clue trigger, he armegeddons, and my tracker ends up being a 5/4 instead of a 6/5 and I have to trade with a germ token instead of eating them. Feels bad.
G3: Drs, thoughtsieze a batterskull and surgically extract the 3 of them from his deck, then goyf beats for the win.

Round 8: Alluren. WIN, Record: 6-2 (14-7 in games)
G1: I have goyf for pressure and a perfect combination of zealous persecution, discard, stp and wasteland just stop him from comboing off.

Sideboard: -2 IoK, -2 Decay, -2 Liliana. +2 Canonist, +1 Lost Legacy, +2 Deluge, +1 Rec Sage

G2: I get an early knight and wasteland him out of the game, then zealous persecution his strixes away.

I finish with 18 points at 10th place, 9th place had 19 points and missed top8!


9th-16th Elimination bracket:

Quarter "Finals": Show n Tell. WIN, Record: 7-2 (16-8 in games) Finally some combo to test against, and a reason for my karakas...
G1: I don't know he is on combo and keep a hand without discard and get omniscienced turn 4.

Sideboard: -4 STP, -2 Decay, -2 Persecution, -1 Jitte, -1 SofaI. +2 Surgical, +6 Hatebears, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Lost Legacy.

G2: He mulls to 5 and is salty, but I mull to 6. Discard and extract his show n tells, then hatebears get there.
G3: He keeps 7, I mull to 4... Forest, DRS, TS and Rec Sage. I end up drawing another land and getting to cast my discard and a canonist I draw. He casts a blood moon and I attack for 3 until I draw a gofy. He eventually show n tells and my rec sage kills his omniscience and win on the next turn. Feels good.

Semi "Finals": Infect. WIN, Record: 8-2 (18-8)
G1: He mulls to 5, I play swamp cast IoK and he concedes into response. Turn 1 win, achievement unlocked! He saw me play last round so knows what I'm on, I have no idea what he is playing. He sideboards and I don't.

G2: I have two lilianas in hand, DRS, IoK and 3 lands, feel good. He puts a leyline of sanctity in play, feels bad. However he doesn't have any infect creatures after a while, and I'm draining with DRS, then a zealous persecution kills a dryad arbor and makes him waste a pump spell on his hierarch, "I thought you didn't sideboard" he says lol. I get down a goyf and he has to star chump blocking and win with graveyard full of discard and lilianas that I had to discard to my lili in play.

"Finals": Show n Tell. LOSE, Final Record: 8-3 (18:10 in games)
G1: I don't know he's on show n tell and he eventually kills me when I don't draw enough discard.
G2: T1 I discard his show n tell and then extract it. T2 I play canonist and I have lost legacy and Gsun zenith in hand. If I cast lost legacy or Gsun for 2 I win. But I don't draw land.. I can gsun for drs to get mana the following turn, but I'm afraid to lose one of my two chances at a lock piece in the face of a spell pierce so decide to bank on drawing a land. I don't and he then casts a sneak attack and I don't answer it. GG. He gets the revised underground sea, and I get the volc.


Final thoughts: Was super happy with my deck choice and deck list, I'm pretty sure my lack of recent practice and general tiredness from brewing it the night before was apparent. The deck felt more powerful than me, and a better player probably would have made top 8 in my situation.

In hindsight, I need more card advantage to stand a chance against czech pile, I was honestly suprised at how poor I felt against the deck despite the 3 bob, 1 library, 3 lili, tracker, jitte and sofai. Tracker wasn't as good for me as she was in nic fit, knight was fine, but I would always get teeg before her against combo and I never drew my karakas anyway. I liked the discard a lot, the bobs and persecutions were great all day, and the equipment was good without SFMs, though I did miss batterskull a bit. A resilient creature is necessary addition to the deck, and the treetops were okay...

I think I was wrong to think I needed the 8 mana dorks so if I were to play again tomorrow I would cut the greensuns zenith package for more card advantage and lingering souls as my "resilient creature". Something like this:

20 zero-drops:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heaths
3 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

15 one-drops:
1 Treetop Village
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Deathrite Shaman

13 two-drops:
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

6 three-drops:
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Council's Judment (compensate for no pridemage and as a much needed answer to jace)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Lingering Souls

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Lost Legacy
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Card Advantage: Garruk Relentless, Stoneforge Mystic, Painful Truths..?

I guess I'll find out at FNM this week.

Thoughts, questions?

Keep up the good fight.

[CptHaddock]

I would play more copies of the equipment you want to play if you aren't running SFM. You don't really have many ways to find it other than the 2 libraries or hoping you naturally draw it. I think that 2 jittes are more appealing since you also have lingering souls to fly over stuff.

[Jain_Mor]

I would play more copies of the equipment you want to play if you aren't running SFM. You don't really have many ways to find it other than the 2 libraries or hoping you naturally draw it. I think that 2 jittes are more appealing since you also have lingering souls to fly over stuff.

So? I'm not playing SFM precisely because I don't want to draw equipment that often. You don't really want equipment in your opening hand, you want them as the game goes on; they are expensive to use. Think of Jitte as removal spell number 9 and SoFaI as card draw number 7 if "2 equipment" sounds weird or narrow to you. Equipment isn't the game plan, just an additional feature of the deck.

[sdematt]

Can confirm that playing Equipment with no SFM is still fine. Did that for a long time.

I do like SFM for turboing that very game plan though, esp. if you have Souls you want to get in there.

[sdematt]

I'll be running something similar. I loved my GSZ list from back in the day, maybe just take it and upgrade it for the meta? But here's what I'd play.

21 Lands w/ Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 SFM
15

2 Sylvan Library
3 Lingering Souls
3 Equipment (current meta call is like SOFI, SoLaS against opposing Skulls/BUG/Strixes/etc.), and Jitte)

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
14

4 Decay (since you still want to kill stuff dead)
3 STP
2 GSZ
1 Painful Truths
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Zealous Persecution

//Sideboard//

2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke

[Jain_Mor]

@Matt, why don't you like Liliana? She's one of the few cards that's relevant/powerful against most decks. If you can persuade me off of her I'll be really happy though! Frees up space for sure.

I count 16-19 cards in your maindeck that I wouldn't want to have against combo.. and not many cards to replace them with. I guess are you trying to dodge combo?

I think you'd want more one mana removal, there's a lot of one-drops you went to kill and it's good for your curve. Decay really is less necessary now.

Ive also found choke to be extremely mediocre at the moment. Nearly all of the blue decks are playing mana dorks as well as decay and the combo decks don't care about it.

[KoDiamonds]

Sorry for the delay!

So the event was awesome, 137 players = 8 rounds of swiss. 1st place prize was plane ticket, hotel and byes for GP Vegas. 2-8th get playsets of revised duals. 9-16th get their own single elimination bracket to compete for an underground sea and a volcanic island. 17-24th get their own single elimination bracket to compete for a tundra and a bayou.

I made my deck the night before after thinking about the expected metagame (elves, D&D, show n tell, storm, reanimator, TNN, pyromancer, leovald, baleful strix, SFM, and delver) and drawing up mana curve spreadsheets. I decided that I wanted to be as fast as possible for a junk deck, that I wanted to have an out to most decks main deck, as well as a quick-ish clock, card advantage and discard. I also decided that given the expected metagame and given its a pseudo burn spell against combo, some zealous persecution would be better than some abrupt decay. So this is what I settled on:

20 zero-drops:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heaths
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

21 one-drops:
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Treetop Village

13 two-drops:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

6 three-drops:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest In Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Lost Legacy
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Garruk Relentless

I won't explain all my thoughts, but feel free to ask about any choices I made if you like.

My main intent was to always doing be something on T1 and to maximise my chances of T2 liliana or T2 gsun for gaddock teeg. I think SFM is bad right now (to slow and bad against combo), but equipment can still be good, so I was relying on my bobs and librarys to draw into them naturally instead. Equipment also means dryad abor isnt useless and makes treetop pretty great when you're top decking etc. I wanted to play hymn to tourach and lingering souls too.. but no space.

Sideboard is just flexible combo hate plus some card advantage cards for the midrange matchups.

The Tournament:

Round 1: Elves. WIN, Record: 1-0 (2-0 in games)
G1: I have a zealous persecution in hand and feel pretty good about my deck decisions. I use it a bit early possibly and my opponent rebuilds, luckily I have two dark confidants in play and draw my second main deck persecution, to my opponent's disbelief (a common theme throughout the day) and plague wind and attack for lethal.

Sideboard: -2 decay, =1 pridemage, -3 liliana, -1 knight, -1 tracker. +6 hatebears, +2 toxic deluge

G2: Just deluge and equip a jitte for the win.

Round 2: D&T. WIN, Record: 2-0 (4-0 in games)
G1: An abundance of discard stops him from doing anything then DRSs slowly finish him off.

Sideboard: -2 IoK, -1 Teeg, -2 Liliana. +1 Rec Sage, +2 Deluge, +2 Garruk

G2: Discard + deluge slows him down and then garruk and jitte finish him off.

Round 3: Dark Bant Blade. WIN, Record: 3-0 (6-1 in games)
G1: I mulligan and stick 1 one land and drs, its a close game but I'm always on the back foot.

Sideboard: -1 Teeg, -2 Iok. +1 Rec sage, +2 deluge.

G2: He mulligans, I wasteland and DRS and I win because he is always on the back foot
G3: Close game, lots of trading and card advantage either way. He endx up with an active jace for 4 turns and should have won, but I pull back with a timely zealous persecution, a liliana and drs equipped with jitte attacking for lethal in last turn of extra time. Crazy top decks.

Round 4: Czech Pile. LOSE, Record: 3-1 (7-3 in games)
G1: He just has so much card advantage. I make some misplays by playing creatures in the wrong order knowing he has kolghans command in hand, I wish I had a troll ascetic or thrun to get with my green sun zenith.

Sideboard: -2 Iok, -1 TS, -1 Teeg. +2 deluge, +2 Garruk.

G2: I pull a head with bob and finish with treetop village. Persecution super useful for getting rid of strixes.
G3: I get out valued but am ahead on board with a liliana and treetop village and a liliana and one other card in hand against his nothing and 2 cards in hand. I can either cast a fresh liliana and discard us to make her loyalty 4 or attack with treetop and and tick up liliana in play to 2. I decide to be aggressive, we both discard to liliana, I attack, he takes the damage, I tick up end of turn he flashes in snapcaster and fatal pushes my treetop village, then attacks and kills me liliana, I draw nothing good and he cast command to get back a leovold, GG.

Round 5: Grixis Delver. WIN, Record: 4-1 (9-4 in games)
G1: Was close, he has delvers, TNN and DRS. I use removal and end up with a pridemage equipped with jitte and a drs, but I think that I'm dead on board to his TNN attack and drs activation so I scoop. As I go to sideboard I realise I could have used the last counter on my jitte to survive from the drs activation and would stabalise on the crack back, so he cant attack and my drs will neuter his when I untap... I nearly always play games out but since the last two matches went to time I shortcutted, stupid.

Sideboard: -2 Ts, -1 teeg, -1 pridemage. +2 deluge +2 Garruk

G2: I get early DRS and a few wastelands and beat down with goyf, feels good.
G3: Close game but I get to deluge his creatures and then later equip treetop with jitte to overcome his gurmag angler.

Round 6: D&T. LOSE, Record: 4-2 (10-6 in games)
G1: I Inquisiton turn 1 and he has port, wasteland, 4 creatures and a vial, no white sources. So I thank the magic gods for another zealous persecution matchup, take the vial and cruise to victory.

G2: I keep an awkward mana hand and he punishes me, feels bad.
G3: I mulligan and never get to toxic deluge mana or the right colours for persecution in hand, feels really bad. D&T just kept me off mana well enough. Wish I had a plains instead of karakas maybe. Dissapointed to lose to D&T but matchups can't be 100%.

Round 7: Mono White Stax. WIN, Record: 5-2 (12-7 in games)
G1: STP stops his tabernacle man, and DRS stops his wasteland lock, gsun for pridemage stops smoke stack and bob attacks and keeps cards coming.

Sideboard: -2 IoK, -2 persecution, -1 Jitte, -1 SofaI. +2 surgical, +1 rest in peace (a mistake I think) +1 rec sage, +2 garruk

G2: I end up having to defend against two early batterskulls after thoughtsiezing badly. I get my tireless tracker down but I miss a clue trigger, he armegeddons, and my tracker ends up being a 5/4 instead of a 6/5 and I have to trade with a germ token instead of eating them. Feels bad.
G3: Drs, thoughtsieze a batterskull and surgically extract the 3 of them from his deck, then goyf beats for the win.

Round 8: Alluren. WIN, Record: 6-2 (14-7 in games)
G1: I have goyf for pressure and a perfect combination of zealous persecution, discard, stp and wasteland just stop him from comboing off.

Sideboard: -2 IoK, -2 Decay, -2 Liliana. +2 Canonist, +1 Lost Legacy, +2 Deluge, +1 Rec Sage

G2: I get an early knight and wasteland him out of the game, then zealous persecution his strixes away.

I finish with 18 points at 10th place, 9th place had 19 points and missed top8!


9th-16th Elimination bracket:

Quarter "Finals": Show n Tell. WIN, Record: 7-2 (16-8 in games) Finally some combo to test against, and a reason for my karakas...
G1: I don't know he is on combo and keep a hand without discard and get omniscienced turn 4.

Sideboard: -4 STP, -2 Decay, -2 Persecution, -1 Jitte, -1 SofaI. +2 Surgical, +6 Hatebears, +1 Rec Sage, +1 Lost Legacy.

G2: He mulls to 5 and is salty, but I mull to 6. Discard and extract his show n tells, then hatebears get there.
G3: He keeps 7, I mull to 4... Forest, DRS, TS and Rec Sage. I end up drawing another land and getting to cast my discard and a canonist I draw. He casts a blood moon and I attack for 3 until I draw a gofy. He eventually show n tells and my rec sage kills his omniscience and win on the next turn. Feels good.

Semi "Finals": Infect. WIN, Record: 8-2 (18-8)
G1: He mulls to 5, I play swamp cast IoK and he concedes into response. Turn 1 win, achievement unlocked! He saw me play last round so knows what I'm on, I have no idea what he is playing. He sideboards and I don't.

G2: I have two lilianas in hand, DRS, IoK and 3 lands, feel good. He puts a leyline of sanctity in play, feels bad. However he doesn't have any infect creatures after a while, and I'm draining with DRS, then a zealous persecution kills a dryad arbor and makes him waste a pump spell on his hierarch, "I thought you didn't sideboard" he says lol. I get down a goyf and he has to star chump blocking and win with graveyard full of discard and lilianas that I had to discard to my lili in play.

"Finals": Show n Tell. LOSE, Final Record: 9-3 (18:10 in games)
G1: I don't know he's on show n tell and he eventually kills me when I don't draw enough discard.
G2: T1 I discard his show n tell and then extract it. T2 I play canonist and I have lost legacy and Gsun zenith in hand. If I cast lost legacy or Gsun for 2 I win. But I don't draw land.. I can gsun for drs to get mana the following turn, but I'm afraid to lose one of my two chances at a lock piece in the face of a spell pierce so decide to bank on drawing a land. I don't and he then casts a sneak attack and I don't answer it. GG. He gets the revised underground sea, and I get the volc.


Final thoughts: Was super happy with my deck choice and deck list, I'm pretty sure my lack of recent practice and general tiredness from brewing it the night before was apparent. The deck felt more powerful than me, and a better player probably would have made top 8 in my situation.

In hindsight, I need more card advantage to stand a chance against czech pile, I was honestly suprised at how poor I felt against the deck despite the 3 bob, 1 library, 3 lili, tracker, jitte and sofai. Tracker wasn't as good for me as she was in nic fit, knight was fine, but I would always get teeg before her against combo and I never drew my karakas anyway. I liked the discard a lot, the bobs and persecutions were great all day, and the equipment was good without SFMs, though I did miss batterskull a bit. A resilient creature is necessary addition to the deck, and the treetops were okay...

I think I was wrong to think I needed the 8 mana dorks so if I were to play again tomorrow I would cut the greensuns zenith package for more card advantage and lingering souls as my "resilient creature". Something like this:

20 zero-drops:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heaths
3 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

15 one-drops:
1 Treetop Village
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Deathrite Shaman

13 two-drops:
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

6 three-drops:
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Council's Judment (compensate for no pridemage and as a much needed answer to jace)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Lingering Souls

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Lost Legacy
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Card Advantage: Garruk Relentless, Stoneforge Mystic, Painful Truths..?

I guess I'll find out at FNM this week.

Thoughts, questions?

Keep up the good fight.

Thanks for the tournament report buddy, it was a great read.

1) How has Treetop Village been treating you? Ive been very reluctant to run manlands in legacy because of wasteland. I have a Karakas instead and have considering a Treetop instead for the beats.

2) How has the equipment performed with no way to tutor them?

3) I think your new list is a little threat light. Your first list had about equal # of threats as my own list but since youve cut Green suns Zenith, its 3-4 threats less. My list also has Stoneforge Mystics and I agree they do feel slow and clunky. That being said, it gains card advantage, eats removal, and fetches the specifix equipment needed in certain matchups (jitte vs elves, sword to swing through Strix, etc)

[Jain_Mor]

Thanks for the tournament report buddy, it was a great read.

1) How has Treetop Village been treating you? Ive been very reluctant to run manlands in legacy because of wasteland. I have a Karakas instead and have considering a Treetop instead for the beats.

2) How has the equipment performed with no way to tutor them?

3) I think your new list is a little threat light. Your first list had about equal # of threats as my own list but since youve cut Green suns Zenith, its 3-4 threats less. My list also has Stoneforge Mystics and I agree they do feel slow and clunky. That being said, it gains card advantage, eats removal, and fetches the specifix equipment needed in certain matchups (jitte vs elves, sword to swing through Strix, etc)

My problem with SFM is what do you do against combo? Say you have 3 SFM and 3 Equipment, thats 6 cards that suck against combo. Then you have your 8 removal spells as well, plus some top end threats and thats then 14-16 cards that are bricks against combo. You can't sideboard all of them out and they are all a waste in game 1 as well.

Where as if you use more versatile card advantage cards and threats (like hymn and lili) then you're better against combo G1, G2 & G3.

Maybe I should be ignoring combo and just construct my deck to beat fair decks, aggro decks and combo creature decks and hope to dodge spell based combo. That might end up being the best way, but for now I'm going to try and get my cake and eat it too.

Regarding Treetop Village, the question is what would you be playing instead? A non-land? You risk not drawing lands. A land? You risk flood and dual lands get wasted anyway. That's why I put my man lands in the 1-drop slot. they are a one mana spell that mitigate flood and screw. You pay 1 mana for a land next turn and a threat much later, similar to using ponder to make land drops or mitigate them.

So you play 20 real lands and if you want to mitigate flood and increase your threat density while keep curve low, you use man lands. If you want more consitency you use more duals. If you want stability you use basics. If you want utility then you use other lands. Depends what you want.

Equipment was addressed above and in the report, it was great.

[tescrin]

My problem with SFM is what do you do against combo? Say you have 3 SFM and 3 Equipment, thats 6 cards that suck against combo. Then you have your 8 removal spells as well, plus some top end threats and thats then 14-16 cards that are bricks against combo. You can't sideboard all of them out and they are all a waste in game 1 as well.


Let's not go crazy now. Let's evaluate one thing at time:
* The equips are not all bad against combo. SoFaI is a *huge* clock that can be swinging T3. T3 isn't amazing, but drawing cards and dealing 5+ damage is pretty good. On a DRS, that's a 5/3 swinging that also draws cards. Not shabby. Jitte takes a turn, but also turns dudes into 5+/x's that can instead gain a load of life (relevant at times)

* BSK is a staple against EtW. I realize you may not have faced TES/Belcher in awhile or similar, but IIRC BSK off of SFM even if they go for 12 Gobbos T1 is a win in your favor; although barely. Anything after that is gravy.

* SoFaI and Jitte are *very* good against Infect and [if you can connect with SoFaI] Elves

* Jitte & BSK/SoLaS are a necessary evil to deal with Burn. Between those and DRS (and maybe plowing your own goyf/kotr) you can pull wins off fairly reliably against burn.

I can understand that you think SFM is bad; but her issue was mostly that Miracles and omni-present decay made her bad. For Miracles her issue is that the CA is canceled and the tempo loss puts you farther behind. For the decays, if you go deep too early and they decay in response to an equip you can be 4-5 mana in the hole; huge tempo loss early game. But having 3-4 cards that say "Lol, burn sucks" is pretty handy. Drop-equipping a guy with Jitte is the end of many a burn MU, and even storm MU.

Similarly, Storm going EtW in hopes of pre-empting a hatebear can make SFM a golden card for the decks that run a BSK.


I'm surprised that your -1/-1 effects were enough for infect/elves. Normally I'm not that fortunate and would've evaluated those to be losses without access to a way to keep sustainable pressure (SoFaI/Jitte on flyers.) Still, good finish. Weird to see a somewhat wacky looking list, especially in Junk, do that well.

[solnox]

Hey guys,

I've recently picked up the deck and got his list from a while back. Been tuning and playing on MTGO and managed to 5-0 twice so far. First time it didn't post but maybe the one I just 5-0'd will post.

I'm playing a pretty classic junk list with 22 land,

3 Swords to Plowshares

2 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Thoughtseize

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Dark Confidant

2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

4 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay

1 Jitte

3 Lingering Souls

1 Council's Judgement

1 Toxic Deluge

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Batterskull

SB:

1 Swords to Plowshares

2 Ethersworn Canonist

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Surgical Extraction

2 Golgari Charm

2 Duress

1 Hymn to Tourach

1 Act of Authority

1 Pithing Needle

[Jain_Mor]

Let's not go crazy now. Let's evaluate one thing at time:
* The equips are not all bad against combo. SoFaI is a *huge* clock that can be swinging T3. T3 isn't amazing, but drawing cards and dealing 5+ damage is pretty good. On a DRS, that's a 5/3 swinging that also draws cards. Not shabby. Jitte takes a turn, but also turns dudes into 5+/x's that can instead gain a load of life (relevant at times)


A four turn clock starting on T3 isn't *huge*. How do you attack on T3 with SoFaI anyway? T1 land drs, T2 sfm + land drs or fetch for dryad abor (if you play it), T3 play land pay two tap sfm put sword in play, pay 2 equip to second drs/arbor attack? You need 4 mana on T3 and 3 creatures in play... and you don't have any spare mana along the way. Why are you keeping that hand/making that play in G2 & G3 against combo? Not interacting by turn 4 isn't good enough.

I acknowledge that equipment isnt irrelevant (obv better than other cards like StP and decay), but if you can exchange 4/5 mana threats (6/7 with sfm..) with more relevant early game interaction against combo, you should want to. If you play cabal therapy, then SFM gets a better pass.



* BSK is a staple against EtW. I realize you may not have faced TES/Belcher in awhile or similar, but IIRC BSK off of SFM even if they go for 12 Gobbos T1 is a win in your favor; although barely. Anything after that is gravy.


Yes, that is an interaction that makes SFM good against fringe combo decks or some lines of storm. But zealous persecution and toxic deluge can do the same job.



* SoFaI and Jitte are *very* good against Infect and [if you can connect with SoFaI] Elves


They are, which is why I still played SoFaI and Jitte. I didn't play SFM because I wanted to play cards that interact better in the early turns (like more discard, persecution, teeg etc). I played treetop to trample over blockers with equipment, but I do think not registering lingering souls was a mistake. The equipment is clean up crew, not early game interaction and SFM/equipment is great at shutting the door but is such a tempo loss in the early turns against those decks when you have to interact asap.



* Jitte & BSK/SoLaS are a necessary evil to deal with Burn. Between those and DRS (and maybe plowing your own goyf/kotr) you can pull wins off fairly reliably against burn.


Agreed, though I did play drs, jitte, and stp, I was worried about the burn matchup. However burn is still a challenge even with SFM and it is a pretty fringe deck. So I don't think that makes her mandatory.



I'm surprised that your -1/-1 effects were enough for infect/elves. Normally I'm not that fortunate and would've evaluated those to be losses without access to a way to keep sustainable pressure (SoFaI/Jitte on flyers.)


The 6 one mana discard spells, 4 stp, 2 main deck persecutions and Jitte + SoFaI was a big deal for G1. Having that much interaction on turn 1 means you give yourself a chance to find your plague winds or lock pieces. And then you just bolster with hatebears and more sweepers for G2 & G3. I beat both elves and infect 2-0 and have done similarly in testing, obv it's not 100% but having access to that 2 mana persecution effect in 33-50% more games makes a big difference.



Still, good finish. Weird to see a somewhat wacky looking list, especially in Junk, do that well.


lol, thanks for the compliment I guess?

And as I said at the end of my report, I'm pretty sure I made my deck too "fast" and I need more card advantage. I'm leaning towards hymn to tourach, but if sdematt or anyone else can persuade me off of liliana I'll probably slot in some SFM. I guess my overall point is, SFM is the last on a list of great cards I look to add to my deck, and that you can divorce equipment from her.

[KoDiamonds]

Regarding Treetop Village, the question is what would you be playing instead? A non-land? You risk not drawing lands. A land? You risk flood and dual lands get wasted anyway. That's why I put my man lands in the 1-drop slot. they are a one mana spell that mitigate flood and screw. You pay 1 mana for a land next turn and a threat much later, similar to using ponder to make land drops or mitigate them.

So you play 20 real lands and if you want to mitigate flood and increase your threat density while keep curve low, you use man lands. If you want more consitency you use more duals. If you want stability you use basics. If you want utility then you use other lands. Depends what you want.
Well, I used to run 21 lands myself and felt greedy. I recently moved up to 22 lands. One of my lands is a Karakas and its been relevent but Treetop Village is definitely nice. The # of games Karakas is relevent <<<<<< Treetop would be relevent. Ill definitely test a Treetop out. It just feels iffy playing taplands and not being able to use the mana asap with wastelands and how important the early turns are or even topdecking an untapped land.



Hey guys,

I've recently picked up the deck and got his list from a while back. Been tuning and playing on MTGO and managed to 5-0 twice so far. First time it didn't post but maybe the one I just 5-0'd will post.

I'm playing a pretty classic junk list with 22 land,

3 Swords to Plowshares

2 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Thoughtseize

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Dark Confidant

2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

4 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay

1 Jitte

3 Lingering Souls

1 Council's Judgement

1 Toxic Deluge

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Batterskull

SB:

1 Swords to Plowshares

2 Ethersworn Canonist

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Surgical Extraction

2 Golgari Charm

2 Duress

1 Hymn to Tourach

1 Act of Authority

1 Pithing Needle
I really like your list (very similar to mine) (except 61 cards...blah haha). The only difference is you have a Council's Judgment over my 3rd Liliana and a Sylvan Library over my 3rd Hymn.

1) How has 2 Lilianas treated you? I feel like 3 is a really good number, at least IMO.
2) How has Councils Judgment worked out for you? I have no main deck answer to Jace and this also deals with True Name. However, I feel like double W is super difficult to cast with this deck. Hows your mana base look?

[tescrin]

lol, thanks for the compliment I guess?

And as I said at the end of my report, I'm pretty sure I made my deck too "fast" and I need more card advantage. I'm leaning towards hymn to tourach, but if sdematt or anyone else can persuade me off of liliana I'll probably slot in some SFM. I guess my overall point is, SFM is the last on a list of great cards I look to add to my deck, and that you can divorce equipment from her.

Let's be fair, it *looks* wacky for the thread. 23 lands, GSZ plan, 1 KotR, 2 Goyf, no SFM. It obviously worked, but it's also unconventional compared to what's normally tossed around in here. Enough that I'd be interested to see if it keeps working because maybe you cracked da code. Even the maindeck ZP's are news to me. I've tried it before and was immediately punished dearly by playing Jund and Sneakshow and Shardless and Delver, etc.. I *do* like Pontiffs more since they carry a sword; but good luck convincing any one of that [though it was pretty funny to wipe elves twice on the same dude. I had to 2-for-0 myself to do it, but I got a good 6 elves for my troubles]

I'll say the *only* reason I stopped using Lilianas was that I used them for 3-4 years in literally every deck and bought her for $30-35. People givin' me $80+ for her helps make me feel less stupid about my Goyf prices going down, or Confidant prices, or wasteland prices... She's maindeck combo hate, and also kills dudes (upping game against Reanimator, Sneakshow, TNN decks, etc.) I think when you remove her it makes a lot of sense to instead move to a Thalia plan, swapping Souls->Blossom to keep the curve steady. Selling her was about the only way to branch out a bit for me. Collective Brutality also isn't a bad replacement for her, as it allows you the discard outlet for conditional CA or CQ, is relevant to combo (discard something that sucks in a combo MU to sap their lifetotal and discard)



EDIT: The most obvious cards in your list to swap aren't the liliana's, but the GSZ#4 and probably #3. Add in 2 SFM and see how you feel about it. 2 is normally pretty comfortable for her since it's rare you'll get both, you get access to 3 Jittes against Burn/Elves/Infect, and unless you're the type who wants to see her every game, 2 is also a "nice to see" number.

[Jain_Mor]

EDIT: The most obvious cards in your list to swap aren't the liliana's, but the GSZ#4 and probably #3. Add in 2 SFM and see how you feel about it. 2 is normally pretty comfortable for her since it's rare you'll get both, you get access to 3 Jittes against Burn/Elves/Infect, and unless you're the type who wants to see her every game, 2 is also a "nice to see" number.

Cheers, thats actually what I've been testing today. She feels very impotent without BSK though..

[tescrin]

Cheers, thats actually what I've been testing today. She feels very impotent without BSK though..

You'll get used to it. If you run BSK you normally want:
* Mother of Runes

or if you're in blue:
* Daze
* Force
* Brainstorm

Without these what happens is you get a 5-mana garbage in your hand if they nuke SFM, or you drop it with SFM and they pop the token. You may be thinking "That's +2 cards!", but it also costed you two untap steps, 4 mana, and you're tapped out with your opp swinging a goyf or something and you have nothing to show for it. It's really obnoxious and took me awhile to learn in junk.

DGA can run BSKs in mom builds and D&T/Maverick can (though Maverick opts not to usually IIRC) but in Junk, everything is about the card value. In this case, she's there to get the nasty "must answer" permanent. She's a terrible T2 drop in this case because they don't have to remove her. Consider dropping Bobs/Goyfs/etc. on T2 because SFM + a thing is better on T3/T4. T2 SFM-> T3 Drop/Equip jitte is a good play, but it usually fails to removal; so use that as a backup plan.

I *always* grab jitte, even with BSK in the deck. It's just such a finisher for the decks I want to see it against, and BSK is obnoxiously mediocre a lot of the time. You might consider a BSK in the side for Storm or something, but you already have a bunch of sweepers as you said.


That all said, you got a nice Top8 off a pile you built on a gut feeling, so you may just go with your gut :P

[sdematt]

Cheers, thats actually what I've been testing today. She feels very impotent without BSK though..

I'll convince you later tonight after I finish some surgery.

[KoDiamonds]

It just seems awkward running Stoneforge Mystics without a huge payoff card like Batterskull. I am looking forward to your explaination sdematt.

That being said, if the only equipment in the deck is Jitte and SoFI, how many Stoneforge Mystics are run? 2 or 3? With no batterskull, the deck becomes less reliant on SFM.

[tescrin]

It just seems awkward running Stoneforge Mystics without a huge payoff card like Batterskull. I am looking forward to your explaination sdematt.

That being said, if the only equipment in the deck is Jitte and SoFI, how many Stoneforge Mystics are run? 2 or 3? With no batterskull, the deck becomes less reliant on SFM.

In this deck Matt (and myself, and others?) ran SoLaS or SoFaF in it's spot, depending on what was annoying and the removal was of the time. Meaning you have a minimum 2 SFM, 3 equips a lot of the time (guaranteeing she'll always get you stuff.) The same is often true for maverick as well, running a second sword.

BSK is a big payoff if you're only running 1/2s, 2/1s, 3/1s, etc.. but it's less so when you have 2 mana 4/5 and running 8-12 removal. BSK was often an Anti-Goyf card, used to delay the game a couple turns, bounce-reset, and then have a beater. This is also why it's found in nigh-beaterless decks (DGA, D&T, Stoneblade)

People usually run between 2-3 SFM in these non-U decks since the more of them you see the less they're worth. At least with BS you can not only get value out of more, but you can coordinate the shuffle.

Again, the "payoff" is relative to how successful you were too. If your opponent has a goyf down and it boardstalls a bit and gains you 2-3 turns to establish.. great. If they instead stifle/push/Lily/Jace/etc. the Token, you spend 4 mana to do nothing, and have to spend 5 more to do anything interesting. Really, the best you can hope to do without Mom/Counterspells is get the opponent on a shitty hand (which means BSK didn't do much) or have them remove SFM and the CA she got you isn't worth much.

Mom not only protects the SFM, but protects the Token after it drops, and even gives you a way to swing through the opposition profitably making BSK a very ugly proposition for the opponent.

In a deck that has to spend T1/T3 protecting BSK/SFM with discard it's not only ineffective, but you still have a Goyf/Angler/Stalker/TNN blocking your path. meaning you spent all that mana to gain 4 life, or to board stall.

[solnox]

Well, I used to run 21 lands myself and felt greedy. I recently moved up to 22 lands. One of my lands is a Karakas and its been relevent but Treetop Village is definitely nice. The # of games Karakas is relevent <<<<<< Treetop would be relevent. Ill definitely test a Treetop out. It just feels iffy playing taplands and not being able to use the mana asap with wastelands and how important the early turns are or even topdecking an untapped land.



I really like your list (very similar to mine) (except 61 cards...blah haha). The only difference is you have a Council's Judgment over my 3rd Liliana and a Sylvan Library over my 3rd Hymn.

1) How has 2 Lilianas treated you? I feel like 3 is a really good number, at least IMO.
2) How has Councils Judgment worked out for you? I have no main deck answer to Jace and this also deals with True Name. However, I feel like double W is super difficult to cast with this deck. Hows your mana base look?



I really like Council's Judgement as a catchall for everything. I've beaten delver players who slammed Gurmag +TNN which Liliana into Councils answered flawlessly. Obviously thats not happening every game but by the time they get down TNN or Gurmag, some number of Dazes/Forces have usually been spent anyhow. As I said previously before, I got the 76 from my friend who used to post here I think? Blitzfury/GoingAggro?

My mana base is currently 2 bayou, 2 Savannah, 2 Scrubland, 3 Wasteland, 3 basics, 4 verdant, 3 heath, 2 flats, 1 Karakas

[KoDiamonds]

In this deck Matt (and myself, and others?) ran SoLaS or SoFaF in it's spot, depending on what was annoying and the removal was of the time. Meaning you have a minimum 2 SFM, 3 equips a lot of the time (guaranteeing she'll always get you stuff.) The same is often true for maverick as well, running a second sword.

BSK is a big payoff if you're only running 1/2s, 2/1s, 3/1s, etc.. but it's less so when you have 2 mana 4/5 and running 8-12 removal. BSK was often an Anti-Goyf card, used to delay the game a couple turns, bounce-reset, and then have a beater. This is also why it's found in nigh-beaterless decks (DGA, D&T, Stoneblade)

People usually run between 2-3 SFM in these non-U decks since the more of them you see the less they're worth. At least with BS you can not only get value out of more, but you can coordinate the shuffle.

Again, the "payoff" is relative to how successful you were too. If your opponent has a goyf down and it boardstalls a bit and gains you 2-3 turns to establish.. great. If they instead stifle/push/Lily/Jace/etc. the Token, you spend 4 mana to do nothing, and have to spend 5 more to do anything interesting. Really, the best you can hope to do without Mom/Counterspells is get the opponent on a shitty hand (which means BSK didn't do much) or have them remove SFM and the CA she got you isn't worth much.

Mom not only protects the SFM, but protects the Token after it drops, and even gives you a way to swing through the opposition profitably making BSK a very ugly proposition for the opponent.

In a deck that has to spend T1/T3 protecting BSK/SFM with discard it's not only ineffective, but you still have a Goyf/Angler/Stalker/TNN blocking your path. meaning you spent all that mana to gain 4 life, or to board stall.
Thanks for the indepth response. Ive definitely felt that way lately about Batterskull as well. Ive felt pretty comfortable with my 3 SFM 3 equipment package but I think Ill try cutting Batterskull. (Im trying to make room for Councils Judment and a second Sylvan Library).

So what would you suggest the current SFM/equipment package be now? 2 SFM, Jitte, SoFi at least. Do you add another SFM? or a 3rd equipment? And which one? IMO if it has pro blue or black would be best (through truename/ strix). Do you go 3/3? Or is 2 SFM/3 equipment okay?


I really like Council's Judgement as a catchall for everything. I've beaten delver players who slammed Gurmag +TNN which Liliana into Councils answered flawlessly. Obviously thats not happening every game but by the time they get down TNN or Gurmag, some number of Dazes/Forces have usually been spent anyhow. As I said previously before, I got the 76 from my friend who used to post here I think? Blitzfury/GoingAggro?

My mana base is currently 2 bayou, 2 Savannah, 2 Scrubland, 3 Wasteland, 3 basics, 4 verdant, 3 heath, 2 flats, 1 Karakas
Yeah, our manabase is near identical (mines -1 Savannah +1 Bayou) . It just seems rough cast to cast WW, but I aggressively fetch basics so maybe thats why. Im also considering cutting Karakas for a Treetop Village, which makes casting Councils Judment even harder. What do you think I should do with my mana (since im 100% going to run Councila Judment)

[Warden]

How effective is collective brutality in this deck? I think that card is money rn but haven't played post-top in an event yet

[solnox]

You'd probably want another savannah if you want to cast judgement especially if you're going to lose Karakas. I really think taplands in this deck is a mistake as it feels super mana hungry where you want to optimize mana usage every turn and losing 1 turn is a huge feelbad

[Jain_Mor]

I really think taplands in this deck is a mistake as it feels super mana hungry where you want to optimize mana usage every turn and losing 1 turn is a huge feelbad

Man lands should be treated as 1 mana spells during deck construction, not lands. An uncounterable card filtering effect that finds you both a land and a half decent threat.

@SFM I played fnm last night cutting gsun package for more goyfs bobs lingering souls and sfm + bsk.

Went 3-1 beating D&T 2-0, BR reanimator 2-0, Aggro Loam, 2-0. Lost to another BR reanimator 0-2

Lingering souls were MVP, I felt silly not registering them for the GPT and if the meta settles into grindy creature decks + D&T I'll happily play 4 and be living the dream. SFM was fine.. wish she was hymn a lot of the time but double black is awkward on turn 2. Sculler is an option but is bad without mom.

Lingering souls + swords is probably the edge that this deck will have in the meta (plus zealous persecution and hatebears). However that will play into the rise of kolaghans command (plus decay I guess). BSK was fine but probably unecessary, so with 3 equip I think we lock jitte and SoFaI. 3rd option is:

SoLaS: Pro black good agains Marit Lage, Griselbrand and strix. Pro white against mom/d&t. Gives life gain and occasional card advantage (StP and drs kind of shit on it)
SoFaF: Pro black ^^. Pro green for getting past elves.. but jitte and sofai are better. Great against combo because it doesn't waste your tempo for the turn and makes them discard. However all equipment is mediocre against BR reanimator which is rising on the back of its good show n tell matchup... might need some leylines.

I think I'll try SoFaF first.

@Matt, dont forget to get me off liliana.. I think she's pretty good right now and the only threat + answer in the deck thats relevant against nearly all opponents.

[tescrin]

@Matt, dont forget to get me off liliana.. I think she's pretty good right now and the only threat + answer in the deck thats relevant against nearly all opponents.

SoBaM isn't too bad right now. I wouldn't use it against Grixis but not too many others are running Delve Dudes. It gets through TNN, Strix, DRS, Agent, Leo, Goyf, and any other BUG creature (in any of the decks) unless someone is being cute with Stalker/Angler. The mill doesn't do anything, but generating more sword carriers every swing seems alright. I can't test it yet since it hasn't arrived, but at $11, it seems testable.

Every once in awhile I look at Sword of Vengeance and someday I will be crazy enough to try it. Haste, trample, +2/0, First Strike.. drop-Goyf-equip would be a dream. I can't convince myself to run it or Lightning Greaves however. Someday...

[KoDiamonds]

You'd probably want another savannah if you want to cast judgement especially if you're going to lose Karakas. I really think taplands in this deck is a mistake as it feels super mana hungry where you want to optimize mana usage every turn and losing 1 turn is a huge feelbad
I might cut a Bayou for Scrubland since black mana is very important (Lilianas and Hymns) which will total out to 2 Bayous, 3 Scublands, and a Treetop. Well see though. Ill stick with the 3 Bayous 2 Scrublands first and see if its necessary since BG lands are nice with Deathrites.


Man lands should be treated as 1 mana spells during deck construction, not lands. An uncounterable card filtering effect that finds you both a land and a half decent threat.

@SFM I played fnm last night cutting gsun package for more goyfs bobs lingering souls and sfm + bsk.

Went 3-1 beating D&T 2-0, BR reanimator 2-0, Aggro Loam, 2-0. Lost to another BR reanimator 0-2

Lingering souls were MVP, I felt silly not registering them for the GPT and if the meta settles into grindy creature decks + D&T I'll happily play 4 and be living the dream. SFM was fine.. wish she was hymn a lot of the time but double black is awkward on turn 2. Sculler is an option but is bad without mom.

Lingering souls + swords is probably the edge that this deck will have in the meta (plus zealous persecution and hatebears). However that will play into the rise of kolaghans command (plus decay I guess). BSK was fine but probably unecessary, so with 3 equip I think we lock jitte and SoFaI. 3rd option is:

SoLaS: Pro black good agains Marit Lage, Griselbrand and strix. Pro white against mom/d&t. Gives life gain and occasional card advantage (StP and drs kind of shit on it)
SoFaF: Pro black ^^. Pro green for getting past elves.. but jitte and sofai are better. Great against combo because it doesn't waste your tempo for the turn and makes them discard. However all equipment is mediocre against BR reanimator which is rising on the back of its good show n tell matchup... might need some leylines.

I think I'll try SoFaF first.

@Matt, dont forget to get me off liliana.. I think she's pretty good right now and the only threat + answer in the deck thats relevant against nearly all opponents.
So what was the 75 you played on Friday? I dont think you posted a list with SFM and GSZ.

Also, Is it wrong for me to think Sword of Light and Shadow might be better? By cutting Batterskull, SoLaS gives is some nice lifegain to buffer bob and library triggers and can draw us cards like SoFI by returning threats back.

[Jain_Mor]

@Tescrin, man if that said lifelink... As for SoBaM, I did think about it.. but the utility of pro black fliers is quite significant and SoFaF interacts in a way the others don't (plus really great with man lands). But if it turns out making a grizzly bear every turn is real good (like a mini garruk relentless) then I'm down. I wonder how many swords is too many swords? What if there is a build with 4 lingering souls and 4 bitterblossom and a bunch of swords...

@KoDiamonds,

Sure:

20
4 Verdant
2 Marsh
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

2 Treetop
4 DRS
4 STP
4 TS
2 IoK

2 Library
4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 Decay
1 Zealous
3 SFM
1 Jitte

2 Liliana
1 Council's
2 Lingering Souls
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

Side
2 Surgic Extrc
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of Lab
2 Cont Priest
2 Teeg
1 Lost Legacy
2 Deluge
1 Zealous Persc
1 Council's

I cut the Gsun package for consistency in threats (bob, goyf, library, souls) and swapped some removal slots into the sideboard in exchange for the card advantage slots from the sideboard (ie zealous and council's into the side, put sfm as CA maindeck)

[sdematt]

Alright, so here's my schtick on Liliana of the Veil:

I think she's good, but I think she has inherent problems with our deck, which I'll go over.

1) Previously, Liliana was mostly bad because she was, well, bad against Miracles. Say what you will, she was not where you wanted to be against Miracles, -6 or not.

2) Liliana is tough because she's at her best against TNN/big fatties, but typically they have more than one creature. Awkward.

3) Her +1 is symmetrical, but blue's draw power greatly exceeds ours generally, meaning we're not acting favourably, or even symmetrically. You break parity when you discard cards like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, and to some extent, Lingering Souls. Ideally, we want to keep up and have AS MANY cards as we possibly can to fuel our grind. Obviously if you're hellbent it's irrelevant, but discarding removal, even on an empty board, still feels bad especially when many blue decks can come back from behind.

4) The -6 is really good against some decks, for sure, but you'll probably be -2'ing and +1'ing so you may not be doing much of it.


This is why I've always been kinda sore on Liliana in non-Jund decks. Liliana of the Last Hope has promise because her removal is always going up. Every turn, she's either nugging something or making blocks and attacks unfavourable. She doesn't kill TNN or Deathrite, but she can do some work against 1/1's, opposing Goyfs, etc. Plus, you can just activate her post-combat to complicate the math for the opponent.

Again, I think Liliana is fine, but I don't enjoy giving up my cards, and I find the removal aspect somewhat lackluster. I'd honestly rather just drown them in more card draw. Saying that, if someone was playing 2 of them, I'm not going to fault them or anything. There's something to be said about Thoughtseize, Hymn, and the Liliana package, I just prefer the Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy route.

[sdematt]

List might need to change with the whole Top banning. Can't remember if I've posted a list since the banning, or I've just made lists on paper and never uploaded.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction

This was my previous list, and I don't really see any problems. Bitterblossom might not even be necessary to be truthful, since we're likely just grindier.

I think there's definitely some merit in some number of Lost Legacy. I think the Safekeeper in the board can likely go. I might split 3 Thoughtseize/3 Therapy and then two other slots, which might end up being Equipment #3 (Batterskull or SoLaS/SoWaP) and maybe the 4th Confidant.

So, an alternative below:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
6

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8


3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Equipment #3 (Feast and Famine might have more credence if we find we're finding we're almost drawing TOO much and having shit caught in our hands, then untapping is great).
3

2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22

61

//Sideboard//

2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lost Legacy
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction


Or if you want to go more old school tempo-style...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer

4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

21 Lands

//Sideboard//

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lost Legacy
2 Ethersworn Canonist

No fucking around, and game 2 is designed to fuck over combo and Elves, since I figure Elves is going to be a DTB.

Or some Jacques Cousteau deep sea brewing...

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch

2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Humility
4 Lingering Souls
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Bitterblossom
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Sylvan Library

4 STP
3 Decay

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

22 Lands or so, but like 5 basics.

Game plan is to drop Humility and profit, 8 manadorks to make sure you get there on time. Then, you have a great tutor package out of the board full Needles and other fun shit. Game 1 crap over creatures, game 2 just make combo's life hell since they're cutting Decays.

[Jain_Mor]

I wouldn't say your arguements are compelling, but you've said enough to make me taste the lilianaless world!
Thanks for reminding me of grim flayer, that needs testing too.

And agreed, humility is so relevant right now, perhaps there is a way to abuse it.

[KoDiamonds]

Alright, so here's my schtick on Liliana of the Veil:

I think she's good, but I think she has inherent problems with our deck, which I'll go over.

1) Previously, Liliana was mostly bad because she was, well, bad against Miracles. Say what you will, she was not where you wanted to be against Miracles, -6 or not.

2) Liliana is tough because she's at her best against TNN/big fatties, but typically they have more than one creature. Awkward.

3) Her +1 is symmetrical, but blue's draw power greatly exceeds ours generally, meaning we're not acting favourably, or even symmetrically. You break parity when you discard cards like Punishing Fires, Life from the Loam, and to some extent, Lingering Souls. Ideally, we want to keep up and have AS MANY cards as we possibly can to fuel our grind. Obviously if you're hellbent it's irrelevant, but discarding removal, even on an empty board, still feels bad especially when many blue decks can come back from behind.

4) The -6 is really good against some decks, for sure, but you'll probably be -2'ing and +1'ing so you may not be doing much of it.


This is why I've always been kinda sore on Liliana in non-Jund decks. Liliana of the Last Hope has promise because her removal is always going up. Every turn, she's either nugging something or making blocks and attacks unfavourable. She doesn't kill TNN or Deathrite, but she can do some work against 1/1's, opposing Goyfs, etc. Plus, you can just activate her post-combat to complicate the math for the opponent.

Again, I think Liliana is fine, but I don't enjoy giving up my cards, and I find the removal aspect somewhat lackluster. I'd honestly rather just drown them in more card draw. Saying that, if someone was playing 2 of them, I'm not going to fault them or anything. There's something to be said about Thoughtseize, Hymn, and the Liliana package, I just prefer the Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy route.

1) Liliana still provided pressure that was difficult for miracles to answer, since she cant be terminused/StPd, etc.

2) Liliana still gives us the ability to remove TNN, which shouldnt ve understated. We have enough removal to keep the board fairly clean so Liliana should be able to sweep up most of the time.

3) Like in point 1, she still pressures your opponent to respond. If she can survive an untap after a -2, shell just be grinding out CA at that point. Plus, the number of decays are going down, which will only make her better. Plus, the best feeling in the world is drawing extra cards with bob and activating lilly.

4) With all planeswalkers, the ultimate shouldnt be a deciding factor on if shes playable or not. Its a solid removal spell that pressures the opponent with the +1. Plus, if your hand is stacked, you can always do the hidden 0 ability and just not activate her.

I am still iffy on Lilly the last hope. Doesnt kill the problem creatures the deck has trouble dealing with like Leovold, Tnn, etc. Then again, I was iffy on her in modern and I was wrong. Id like to see her get played though.

That Humility list though.... IS GREAT lol

[sdematt]

Even if you're not convinced, play the deck without Liliana and see what you think. I've liked it, and maybe you will too.

[H]

Wouldn't equipment be pretty good in a Humility list? I mean, then you have more bodies and better bodies?

I mean, yes, Stoneforge would kind of suck, but perhaps just 2 SFM/1 Jitte?

[sdematt]

Sure, it wouldn't be bad at all. But, if we're running E. Tutor already, maybe we just run 2 Jitte and say fuck it. Ex. cut Timely and go with the Jittes.

[H]

Sure, it wouldn't be bad at all. But, if we're running E. Tutor already, maybe we just run 2 Jitte and say fuck it. Ex. cut Timely and go with the Jittes.

Good point, forgot about Tutors in there. Timely might be better from the board anyway, so you can bring it in when the life-gain will be more needed.

[tescrin]

Personally, I think people should be in Bitterblossom to begin with. +2/+2 to Goyf (minimum +1) is a big deal. Enough to put him over Reanimator targets, etc.; let alone Gurmag/Stalker. Blossom directly counters Marit Lage, often gives actual CA (via getting a token or two and them decaying it) and runs away with games.

I get that Souls is fast, but it's expensive. The deck can sit low to the ground on 2-mana threats, buffs your goyfs, and costs a full 3-less mana being only a single token behind by the time you're swinging. Lack of grave-reliance is good for opp's bringing in RiPs.. I wish people would try it out a bit again. When I swapped it was an easy "this is strictly better" card; *especially* without Liliana.

When you save 3 mana and require an answer from your opponent, you get to wasteland them more. I think going:
-3 Souls
-0-1 Hymn
+2-3 Bitterblossom
+0-1 Loam
+0-1 Entomb
if entomb: consider 0-1 Filth, Brawn, or similar in the side or main to allow "unblockable" and/or anti-TNN stuff

My thinking would be 2 BB, 1 Loam, 1 Entomb, and be able to:
* Combat-tricks with Goyf at instant speed 1-mana
* Loam greedy decks out at the same speedy as a real loam deck
* Potentially give your dudes trample, swampwalk or whatnot
* Tutors darkblast if you want..

Again, this could be limited to BB but if I were in Junk right now, I think I'd be doing the above. In the worst case Entomb becomes a 3-mana Life From the Loam
I'm also not sure about Libraries with Leo's running around. I didn't mind Oath of Nissa and was even able to make 4-colors work pretty well a year or so ago (except that the D&T matchup becomes unreasonably bad.

[KoDiamonds]

Even if you're not convinced, play the deck without Liliana and see what you think. I've liked it, and maybe you will too.
What would you substitute Liliana with? More removal? More threats?


On another note, I am currently on 3 equipment (Jitte, SoFI, SoLS). Are 2 Stoneforge Mystics too few to support the 3 equipment? Are 3 mystics necessary? Or can I get by with 2?

[tescrin]

2 Mystics 3 equips is fine. Some swear by 4, some thing 3 is the magic number, others say 2 is the only way to go. I've even seen someone vehemently argue for 1.

I personally like 2/3, or even 2/2. Equips in openers are basically pretend-mulligans and if you did 3/2 you'll have the opposite problem of running actual-squires in the deck pretty often.

3-4 mystics tend to be more useful with BSK because even if you miss your equip-trigger you can reset BSK for 5 mana making them useful for pseudo-CA

[Scott]

Kind of an interesting Junk list (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-10) 5-0'd on MTGO today

// Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Creature (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

// Sorcery (7)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifact (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Enchantment (4)
4 Sylvan Library

// Land (22)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Has no one besides me tested Oath of Nissa? That card acts like ponder in here, plus ups your goyfs often.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[tescrin]

Has no one besides me tested Oath of Nissa? That card acts like ponder in here, plus ups your goyfs often.

I played OoN for awhile when I was still playing junk, about a year or so ago. It was fine. It's better with Liliana since she ups your hit-count, but as long as she's replaced with dudes it's fine. With OoN and DRS I was able to get to 4-colors.

I tried a weirdo deck with Magus of the Moon, Pfire, and Groves in place of Wastelands, with only a taiga/badlands as other red sources I think. It was functional but amazingly bad against D&T, for reasons that should be obvious.

Otherwise, it had great combo game and could grind reasonably with other midrangers. Not sure I'd reocmmend that route, but go crazy.


Going back, if OoN with DRS can stitch together that monstrosity, I think it's quite worth consideration. It's main issue is you often throw-away an abrupt decay or plow when you dig, which can sad if that's what you're needing. Even so, it *drastically* improves your ability to keep your opening 7, much like a blue deck. Finding a land with Oath of nissa is a grand feeling, and the opp never knows unless you still wiff.

[KoDiamonds]

Kind of an interesting Junk list (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-10) 5-0'd on MTGO today

// Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

// Creature (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

// Sorcery (7)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifact (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Enchantment (4)
4 Sylvan Library

// Land (22)
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

Yeah, I am a little unsure about the Noble Hierarchs. Seems really off in this list. 4 Libraries are also A LOT. I guess this person really wants to draw Sylvan Librarys haha.




On another note, is Garruk Relentless still necessary in the board now that Miracles is gone? Is he good in any other matchups thats worth keeping in?

[CptHaddock]

Yeah, I am a little unsure about the Noble Hierarchs. Seems really off in this list. 4 Libraries are also A LOT. I guess this person really wants to draw Sylvan Librarys haha.

On another note, is Garruk Relentless still necessary in the board now that Miracles is gone? Is he good in any other matchups thats worth keeping in?

Weird list for sure, I would go with DRS over Hierarch especially when you're playing 11 fetches to fuel her. 4 libraries is certainly way too many, but I guess 4 basically allows you to ALWAYS have 1 in your opening hand. I like him in most non combo matchups, he's a threat who if not easily answered takes over a game. Flipped he usually becomes a tutor for a beater.

I don't understand the dislike of Liliana in this thread. Do none of you play against TNN? Having just a sword to swing past him certainly isn't enough...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The problem with Lilianas is that Junk has a billion options to deal with TNN. There's the obvious Deluge, there's both Zealous Persecution (also excellent against elves and DnT, as well as proactivity with Lingering Souls, although that card got quite a bit worse with Miracles gone) as well as Golgari Charm. There is also Edict, which is cheaper and a faster speed than lili.

Lilianas are fine enough, but she certainly isn't the end-all of TNN removal. She is bad in some matchups, also. All the aggro that came back, for instance.

Tbh, Sword has mostly been enough in DnT for myself.

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[sdematt]

Back in the day before DRS, we were trying Noble because it gave exalted, allowing your Goyfs and such to be large enough to swing and kill other Goyfs. But, at the same time, we were also more black focused with Hymn, so Noble not producing black was somewhat of a problem, as well as being a poor late game draw. Then DRS got printed and all those problems went away. The 7 acceleration list means you'll start with a Turn 1 dork the majority of the time, which is basically what Maverick and Bant are trying to do as well. Exalted certainly doesn't hurt. I could use my extra two slots for two Noble and see how it plays out.

As well, recall I played 3 Sylvans and 4 Confidants for a LONG time, and it was excellent. Even in a Decay meta, they're always slamming Decay on Sylvan (they have to), so playing 3 was reasonable to make sure you could land and keep one in play to run over your opponents in card advantage, especially in the early Miracles meta of, say, 2012/2013.

TNN can always be a pain, I just prefer Deluge as my "kill the world" card, along with Zealous Persecutions. I don't think Liliana is the worst, it's just that I'm not super into her (he's just not that into you, girl.).

Is Garruk still needed? Sure, why not? He's great in opposing GBx mirrors, which are going to be plentiful. Jund will come back, Bant +/- Black, Straight BUG Midrange with Leovold, etc. Those decks are hard pressed to deal with spamming tokens, especially if they're Deathtouch Wolves. I would LOVE to bring the Tracker + GR back, since that's awesome at dealing with, well, anything.

-Matt

[KoDiamonds]

Thanks for the input everyone.

So I noticed a lot of sideboards have 1 Maelstrom Pulse in the 75 while not having any Council's Judgments. Shouldnt that just be a straight swap just to deal with True-Name Nemesis? Also can sort of get around Wirewood Symbiote, Mom, etc. (As in it isnt a complete dead card).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Don't be so afraid of TNN, there are other boogeymen out there. Double White can be a chore, also. If it's a TNN list, try to race it, that's a good way to deal with it. It's only a 3/1 and unless it's a blade list, it's definitely possible, and if it's a blade list, you can still decay every equipment they play sans BSK, and you can hit the token there, slowing them down on that front also. Play against it more, it is not the scariest thing in the sea.

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[KoDiamonds]

Don't be so afraid of TNN, there are other boogeymen out there. Double White can be a chore, also. If it's a TNN list, try to race it, that's a good way to deal with it. It's only a 3/1 and unless it's a blade list, it's definitely possible, and if it's a blade list, you can still decay every equipment they play sans BSK, and you can hit the token there, slowing them down on that front also. Play against it more, it is not the scariest thing in the sea.

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Thanks for the input. Its not just TNN, it also gets around Leovolds draw clause which is nice. It just seems like Judgment seems better in the current meta that the WW restrictive cost cant really deter it that much when the upside on the card is MUCH higher than Maelstrom Pulse IMO

Edit 05/11/17: since noone has responded, Ill elaborate. Maelstrom Pulse was a nice catch answer since it can get literally everything and can be a 1 for 2 at times. Now with Leovold, Truename, mom, Mirran Crusader, etc, Maelstrom Pulse isnt a catch all anymore. Leovold and Truename is so popular and Councils Judgment is the catchall answer now.

[sdematt]

Thanks for the input. Its not just TNN, it also gets around Leovolds draw clause which is nice. It just seems like Judgment seems better in the current meta that the WW restrictive cost cant really deter it that much when the upside on the card is MUCH higher than Maelstrom Pulse IMO

Edit 05/11/17: since noone has responded, Ill elaborate. Maelstrom Pulse was a nice catch answer since it can get literally everything and can be a 1 for 2 at times. Now with Leovold, Truename, mom, Mirran Crusader, etc, Maelstrom Pulse isnt a catch all anymore. Leovold and Truename is so popular and Councils Judgment is the catchall answer now.

All those cards also just die to Toxic Deluge. Maybe Vindicate so you can be flexible in killing lands, too?

-Matt

[tescrin]

While I'm still brewing in Bant; I've gone the route of:
* SoFaI [I realize you always run this, but it's notable for getting around TNN and stuff]
* SoBaM [can't block me with BUG/bant, drop tokens for the grind. Haven't gotten to see it in action yet. may be terrible]
* Flying [can't block me with TNN/Leo builds] [I think my list at the moment has 9 flyers, 2 being birds of paradise :p]
* Elspeth [drops tokens for grinding, is a psuedo equip with +3/+3, gives flying to your fat or tokens to finish the game] She happens to counter Jace reasonably as well. I had a guy plowing/decaying/etc tokens so he could keep jace. Entertaining.
* [this may count, but I'm also spamming exalted with 4 noble 3 QPM at the moment. a couple times I've swung for 4 or 5 on T3.]

Everything is geared to be offensive, flexible, and ignore their 3/1 and 3/3 obnoxiousness. Also, on the 4c Control and similar fronts, if you produce tokens (you should be) *REALLY* consider humility in the SB. It is mega effective against the onslaught of Strix, Leo, and TNN. You have to deal with SFM'sequips still, but not her trigger or ability. I landed it a couple of times against Czech pile to hilarious effect.

Rather than play their game, you can simply go around them. There is no reason not to pro-blue these folks out the game with equips, fly with Souls/Blossoms, and I agree with Deluge being a good way to go. People aren't respecting boardwipes as much because the Leo decks don't want to kill their TNNs and neither do the Pyro decks. DRS/Noble decks means 2+ dudes on the field fairly often. I'd probably main a pair of Deluges.


EDIT: In terms of solving some problems, Hushwing Gryff may solve both flying and Strix/Snap/SFM issues, if you drop your SFM before hand.

[KoDiamonds]

So, Ive been playing a bunch of games on MTGO and have come to some conclusions in regards to past discussions. (btw, thanks to everyone who replied to my posts and offered input)

A) 2 Sylvan Librarys feel really good. When it resolves, having a legal Senseis Diving Top effect is just killer.

B) Sword of Light and Shadow is really unimpressive. Deathrites eat the creature, life gain isnt relevent, and just isnt a threatening card

C) On the flip side, I missed. Batterskull. Played ~20 games without it and I just miss it. Its just a solid top end threat that is tutorable. Have problems casting Stoneforge on T2 and have it just killed and have a 5 drop stuck in hand? Tutor Jitte if it resolves on T2. Simple as that.

Once I slotted Batterskull back in, Stoneforge Mystic just felt way more of a threatening card. Cant imagine one without the other at this point.

D) The double WW in the casting cost of Councils Judgment definitely hurts. I drew it only 1 game and just couldnt cast it vs a lethal Leovold. So it would have been a clean answer, but it does make mana tight with all the double BB spells in the deck. Jury is still out on this one, but might go back to Maelstrom Pulse in the side. Or maybe Vindicate?

[Jain_Mor]

Played another GPT, smaller this time. Went 4-1 in swiss, beating white stax, UB sneak n show, reid duke bug and jund, losing to UR sneak n show. Then beating BR reanimator in top 4 semis, and losing to jund player i beat before in finals, for a 5-2 record.

I'll post a list and report later in the week. Hymn's were good, lingering souls great, SFM lack luster again, bob awesome, equipment okay.

[tescrin]

So, Ive been playing a bunch of games on MTGO and have come to some conclusions in regards to past discussions. (btw, thanks to everyone who replied to my posts and offered input)

C) On the flip side, I missed. Batterskull. Played ~20 games without it and I just miss it. Its just a solid top end threat that is tutorable. Have problems casting Stoneforge on T2 and have it just killed and have a 5 drop stuck in hand? Tutor Jitte if it resolves on T2. Simple as that.

Once I slotted Batterskull back in, Stoneforge Mystic just felt way more of a threatening card. Cant imagine one without the other at this point.


Different strokes. I played Junk for a good two years straight and every time I put in BSK I felt like it was the worst card in the deck. I'd almost always rather grab the SoLaS or w/e and go to town. Anytime my token came down it was popped and I had wasted 2-3 turns.

But different strokes.

[KoDiamonds]

@Tescrin I agree. I cant hate you for running or not running Batterskull. It definitely has its pros and cons.

@Jain Mor, congrats on your solid finish. Looking forward to your report!

Onto another subject, I noticed the recent abzan list that went 5-0 had an Engineered Plague. Im currently running 2 Zealous Persecutions and theyve been solid. However, Plague is pretty intriguing since its a permanent solution to elves, young pyromancer, truename, humans vs d&t, etc. Does anyone else have experience with Engineered Plague? Do you recommend a 1/1 plague/persecution? Or are 2 persecutions better?

[tescrin]

Does anyone else have experience with Engineered Plague? Do you recommend a 1/1 plague/persecution? Or are 2 persecutions better?

I run an ETutor board in any list that has white in it, and I usually include a plague if I have any way of generating black. Comes in for D&T, Storm, TNN decks, Infect, Elves, and just about anything else that reliably has something obnoxious that needs to go away. Storm/Infect may sound weird, but they don't really answer it and it covers bases, especially with E-Tutor being a redundant multiple that can grab more relevant hate if needed.

For reference, my current board, with Junk notations

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Submerge <- Gutshot, Persecutions, Deluge, or Charm, hard to say.
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Chill <- would swap for Warmth
1 Engineered Plague


Note: My second ETutor only comes in for dedicated combo decks that I *need* the answer. Things like Infect/Food Chain/Aluren/Elves I prefer to grind a bit. So ETutor #2 is only for things like Storm, Dredge, Sneakshow (depends what my main looks like), etc.

[KoDiamonds]

I run an ETutor board in any list that has white in it, and I usually include a plague if I have any way of generating black. Comes in for D&T, Storm, TNN decks, Infect, Elves, and just about anything else that reliably has something obnoxious that needs to go away. Storm/Infect may sound weird, but they don't really answer it and it covers bases, especially with E-Tutor being a redundant multiple that can grab more relevant hate if needed.

For reference, my current board, with Junk notations

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Submerge <- Gutshot, Persecutions, Deluge, or Charm, hard to say.
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Chill <- would swap for Warmth
1 Engineered Plague


Note: My second ETutor only comes in for dedicated combo decks that I *need* the answer. Things like Infect/Food Chain/Aluren/Elves I prefer to grind a bit. So ETutor #2 is only for things like Storm, Dredge, Sneakshow (depends what my main looks like), etc.

Thanks for your sideboard tech. Seems sweet!

Did the 3 mana for Engineered Plague seem a little too much? Seems like it might be a little slow in a matchup like elves or even infect.

[tescrin]

Thanks for your sideboard tech. Seems sweet!

Did the 3 mana for Engineered Plague seem a little too much? Seems like it might be a little slow in a matchup like elves or even infect.

It's probably because it's almost 3 at night and it's been a long day; but I ended up typing a small book off your simple question. Short answer: You need other disruption for Plague to matter probably.
__________________________________


E-Plague for Elves is potentially OK if you drop it T2 off DRS and they didn't go off (they can get nut-draws for T2 kills if you didn't know.) I'm currently in Blue (Esper or Bant) and I won't lie when I say Daze/Force/Clique/Evasive make the matchup *much much* better.

Even so, if you start with discard or cage or have a T2 Containment Priest you'll probably be ok for a bit. The Plague is more of a way to slow them down in conjunction with other hate so you have time to set up a Jitte. If you DO get that far, the next most important thing is to kill Wirewood Symbiote, and slightly less important, Quirion Ranger. Not only do each of these potentially ramp them; but they can both be used to Fog Jitte strikes. If you're lucky enough to have Plague + Jitte, it also makes it easier to clear DRS/Nettles.

The Priest/Cage are the more important bits, and you also need to make sure they don't hardcast their fat (In blue, that means holding up Force or something, in B, it means Seizing their hand every once in a while and making sure it's not there.)


Other notes:
* I am typically fine with "overboarding." I like beating combo and I tend to be in good stuff decks that still function with/without half the stuff.

* I would consider swapping a Priest and maybe a "Submerge"/Replacement for Surgicals if I'm not blue. T0/T1 protection is nice.

For Elves:
* I would board in: Pithing Needle, Revoker, 1x ETutor, 2x Priest, 1x Cage, 2x Submerge [in your case, other -1/-1 effects probably], 1 EPlague. If I decide I don't need to board it all in because the deck is well positioned, then the exact reverse order of that is likely the importance.

* Out: slow equips first, then see what I can fit. Things like big planeswalkers, threats who can't swing (confidant probably?) in Junk's case, Libraries. Depending how you feel, Lily may be better or worse than Needle, Revoker, etc. I favor early interaction as you may imagine.

* I tend to approach it as pure control and look to remove every dude I can. No value needed until they're getting value. U gets counters though. You should favor first-turn removal over Discard. I've lost T2 with T1 discard because I thought I had a turn.

* I tend to needle Wirewood as it stops Jitte. DRS is a fine target if they're just draining you to death. Revoker should consider Heritage Druid, but only if you don't have Wirewood problems.

For Infect:
* 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 E Plague, 1 E Tutor, 1 Pithing Needle, maybe a Revoker and Preists if my deck sucks. (Could revoke Noble, and they all block/punch)

* Canonist is *HUGE* in this MU. If you can get a board of Canonist + Removal and then eventually get your Jitte/SoFaI up, you're fine. Canonist removes all of their ability to "get you" on Vines/Hexproof if you're playing right. Remove stuff at EoT your turn of EoT their turn. Never at a time where it could benefit them during combat. Canonist means that when it's mid combat you don't have to hope things are ok, you just go for it.

* Needle for Inkmoth. E-Plague for Inkmoth or Human (depends on the game state..)

[Jain_Mor]

This is how making my sideboard in elves/sweeper context plays out:

It is my experience/preference that 2 sweepers isnt enough in non brainstorm decks, so I always play atleast 4, 3 mana is slow so they can't all be 3 mana, so I play 2 zealous persecution/golgari charm (which have especially good utility against infect etc as well) and two 3 mana ones. Since I'm already spending two sideboard slots on -1/-1 effects, spending the two 3 mana sweeper slots on engineered plague seems like a waste when toxic deluge does a similar job (while also killing X/2s in elves too) but is more relevant against other decks like mid range and delver (finished off a liliana with two spirits and then deluged jund opponents drs goyf and BBE to come out far ahead in a losing situation yesterday, felt good)

Deluge is really strong right now, I'd always play two in my deck somewhere at the moment, and that leaves little room for plague imo. However if you are playing e-tutor board then obv plague is 100% no brainer. I moved away from them a few years ago, but since the meta's changed I might give them another go (I do miss humility..)

[KoDiamonds]

It's probably because it's almost 3 at night and it's been a long day; but I ended up typing a small book off your simple question. Short answer: You need other disruption for Plague to matter probably.
__________________________________


E-Plague for Elves is potentially OK if you drop it T2 off DRS and they didn't go off (they can get nut-draws for T2 kills if you didn't know.) I'm currently in Blue (Esper or Bant) and I won't lie when I say Daze/Force/Clique/Evasive make the matchup *much much* better.

Even so, if you start with discard or cage or have a T2 Containment Priest you'll probably be ok for a bit. The Plague is more of a way to slow them down in conjunction with other hate so you have time to set up a Jitte. If you DO get that far, the next most important thing is to kill Wirewood Symbiote, and slightly less important, Quirion Ranger. Not only do each of these potentially ramp them; but they can both be used to Fog Jitte strikes. If you're lucky enough to have Plague + Jitte, it also makes it easier to clear DRS/Nettles.

The Priest/Cage are the more important bits, and you also need to make sure they don't hardcast their fat (In blue, that means holding up Force or something, in B, it means Seizing their hand every once in a while and making sure it's not there.)


Other notes:
* I am typically fine with "overboarding." I like beating combo and I tend to be in good stuff decks that still function with/without half the stuff.

* I would consider swapping a Priest and maybe a "Submerge"/Replacement for Surgicals if I'm not blue. T0/T1 protection is nice.

For Elves:
* I would board in: Pithing Needle, Revoker, 1x ETutor, 2x Priest, 1x Cage, 2x Submerge [in your case, other -1/-1 effects probably], 1 EPlague. If I decide I don't need to board it all in because the deck is well positioned, then the exact reverse order of that is likely the importance.

* Out: slow equips first, then see what I can fit. Things like big planeswalkers, threats who can't swing (confidant probably?) in Junk's case, Libraries. Depending how you feel, Lily may be better or worse than Needle, Revoker, etc. I favor early interaction as you may imagine.

* I tend to approach it as pure control and look to remove every dude I can. No value needed until they're getting value. U gets counters though. You should favor first-turn removal over Discard. I've lost T2 with T1 discard because I thought I had a turn.

* I tend to needle Wirewood as it stops Jitte. DRS is a fine target if they're just draining you to death. Revoker should consider Heritage Druid, but only if you don't have Wirewood problems.

For Infect:
* 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 E Plague, 1 E Tutor, 1 Pithing Needle, maybe a Revoker and Preists if my deck sucks. (Could revoke Noble, and they all block/punch)

* Canonist is *HUGE* in this MU. If you can get a board of Canonist + Removal and then eventually get your Jitte/SoFaI up, you're fine. Canonist removes all of their ability to "get you" on Vines/Hexproof if you're playing right. Remove stuff at EoT your turn of EoT their turn. Never at a time where it could benefit them during combat. Canonist means that when it's mid combat you don't have to hope things are ok, you just go for it.

* Needle for Inkmoth. E-Plague for Inkmoth or Human (depends on the game state..)
Thanks for the indepth guide. I really appreciate it.

The more I think about it, the more I really like an Enlightened Tutor toolbox sideboard. Gives you more access to sideboard hate when we really need it. Looking at my current sideboard, I would probably do this:


Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
1 Containment Priest
1 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

(The changes I made were -1 Councils Judgment, -2 Faerie Macabre, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Garruk Relentless.
+1Engineered Plague, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Humility, +1 Grafdiggers Cage)

A) What do you think? @Jain Mor, I run 1 Toxic Deluge main so my 75 follows your rule of 4 sweepers, two are 2cmc, two are 3 cmc.

B) Im losing % pts vs reanimator since I really liked Faerie Macabre (vs Chancellor). However, it took up 2 more sideboard slots and having access to an E tutor sideboard seems worth the sacrifice. Especially since Grafdiggers Cage is solid.

C) What matchups is Grafdigger's Cage brought in? Reanimator is obvious. Storm for Past in Flames, NO for elves. What else?

D) What draws me to the Enlightened Tutor is Humility. It seems really good vs Sneak and Show, something my old sideboard was definitely lacking against.

E) Im sad to cut Garruk Relentless but until a control list is established, it looks like hell have to stay on the sidelines. Chains + Choke should be sufficient for now when a control deck pops up.

[tescrin]

Thanks for the indepth guide. I really appreciate it.
B) Im losing % pts vs reanimator since I really liked Faerie Macabre (vs Chancellor). However, it took up 2 more sideboard slots and having access to an E tutor sideboard seems worth the sacrifice. Especially since Grafdiggers Cage is solid.

C) What matchups is Grafdigger's Cage brought in? Reanimator is obvious. Storm for Past in Flames, NO for elves. What else?

D) What draws me to the Enlightened Tutor is Humility. It seems really good vs Sneak and Show, something my old sideboard was definitely lacking against.

E) Im sad to cut Garruk Relentless but until a control list is established, it looks like hell have to stay on the sidelines. Chains + Choke should be sufficient for now when a control deck pops up.

B) I think Reanimator should be ok between Plows, Lilys, Surgicals, Cage, Tutor, and Priest (maybe humility against UB for the S&T). That's quite a bit of stuff. I haven't played BR reanimator really though; but I've done a lot of matches with UB over the years.

C) Cage is OK for any GSZ deck or Arbor deck (maverick for instance.) Not amazing, but it will likely draw a 2-4 mana response, which is good. I sometimes bring it in against Snapcaster decks depending on how obnoxious they are. Keep in mind that it blocks lingering souls, so my boarding of it may not make sense (I usually use Blossom in my decks, or Elspeth for my tokens.)

D) For sure. Humility is also great in any creature MU where you think you'll cast it (not Delver probably) and where you have more dudes/they don't have equips. For instance, Czech Pile almost folds to Humility and they don't realize it. Any BUG good-stuff will likely be upset. Probably don't bring it in against Dark Bant.

E) Yeh, Garruk is fun, but Chokes are more applicable to more MUs I think. I own a pair of Chains but I'm pretty down on the card; especially with Leos all over. Maybe it's good, but like most black cards, it's bad if you're behind.

[KoDiamonds]

B) I think Reanimator should be ok between Plows, Lilys, Surgicals, Cage, Tutor, and Priest (maybe humility against UB for the S&T). That's quite a bit of stuff. I haven't played BR reanimator really though; but I've done a lot of matches with UB over the years.

C) Cage is OK for any GSZ deck or Arbor deck (maverick for instance.) Not amazing, but it will likely draw a 2-4 mana response, which is good. I sometimes bring it in against Snapcaster decks depending on how obnoxious they are. Keep in mind that it blocks lingering souls, so my boarding of it may not make sense (I usually use Blossom in my decks, or Elspeth for my tokens.)

D) For sure. Humility is also great in any creature MU where you think you'll cast it (not Delver probably) and where you have more dudes/they don't have equips. For instance, Czech Pile almost folds to Humility and they don't realize it. Any BUG good-stuff will likely be upset. Probably don't bring it in against Dark Bant.

E) Yeh, Garruk is fun, but Chokes are more applicable to more MUs I think. I own a pair of Chains but I'm pretty down on the card; especially with Leos all over. Maybe it's good, but like most black cards, it's bad if you're behind.
B) BR can be pretty bad since they can T1 Sire of Insanity or Griselbrand you with Chancellor backup so really, only Faerie Macabre can save you.

C) Yeah, Cage shuts off our souls but seems worth it vs elves and reanimator since were trying not to die lol

D) Not sure if id be comfortable bringing it in against C Pile. I mean, it seems great on the backfoot if they have a bunch of truenames and leovolds. Seems bad when youre ahead. But then again, equipment should swing it back to our favor.

E) Chains is super sweet. So many blue decks that try to improve card quality in their draws with brainstorm, ponder, jace, baleful strix, etc that it just shuts all of it all easily. It can just lock them out on its own. It does shut off our Sylvan Library but shutting off our 1-2of to shut off their 8+ draw spells is worth it. Doesnt shut off bob though :)


I played a game against storm with the E Tutor sideboard and really like it. Game 1 I got ran over turn 3 on the draw. Game 2 I went TS-> hymn -> liliana and won.

Game 3 I lost, but I liked how the draws were smooth. I went turn 1 DRS, T2 Ethersworn Canonist. Opponent had Disfigure end step and won in t3. It was nice though because if he didnt have the exact perfect hand to go off that turn, I had Enlightened Tutor in hand to tutor up another Canonist/choke/ wtv lock piece to lock up the game.

Ill test it more, but my initial impression of an Enlightened Tutor board is really good. Thanks for suggesting it.

[tescrin]

B) BR can be pretty bad since they can T1 Sire of Insanity or Griselbrand you with Chancellor backup so really, only Faerie Macabre can save you.

C) Yeah, Cage shuts off our souls but seems worth it vs elves and reanimator since were trying not to die lol

Ill test it more, but my initial impression of an Enlightened Tutor board is really good. Thanks for suggesting it.

B) In that case my recommendation of Surgical was just personal preference. You can easily swap your board to a pair of Fae

C) By all means, I was just thinking about other times I board it in; which recently has been the influx of Snap->Kill-spell spam


Glad you like it! I think sdematt said he's been on one but I'm not sure. The main issue with E-Tutor is the desire to cram a bunch of them in the SB and/or get 2+ in the main in MUs where the CA will cost you. For instance, one against D&T for a Dread of Night/EPlague is pretty ok; but two means if you see the second one, you probably just lost. Maybe I'm too timid on that, but it's happened once or twice and now I only bring both in for the "you're dead" combo decks haha

I've been super enjoying my SB since the mix of cards that do almost the same thing has increased the relevance of it. Needle sometimes comes in when Revoker doesn't, Cage comes in when RiP doesn't and vice versa; it feels very fluid

[KoDiamonds]

B) In that case my recommendation of Surgical was just personal preference. You can easily swap your board to a pair of Fae

C) By all means, I was just thinking about other times I board it in; which recently has been the influx of Snap->Kill-spell spam


Glad you like it! I think sdematt said he's been on one but I'm not sure. The main issue with E-Tutor is the desire to cram a bunch of them in the SB and/or get 2+ in the main in MUs where the CA will cost you. For instance, one against D&T for a Dread of Night/EPlague is pretty ok; but two means if you see the second one, you probably just lost. Maybe I'm too timid on that, but it's happened once or twice and now I only bring both in for the "you're dead" combo decks haha

I've been super enjoying my SB since the mix of cards that do almost the same thing has increased the relevance of it. Needle sometimes comes in when Revoker doesn't, Cage comes in when RiP doesn't and vice versa; it feels very fluid
B) For sure. I still like Surgical over Faerie Macabre just because its more versatile in other matchups (Storm, Punishing Fire decks, etc). Macabre is really only for Reanimator.

D) Yeah, I 100% agree with your original post where you board in 2 E-Tutors for the hard combo matchups, 1 for infect/elves/etc.

Im not sure if Id even board it in vs fair decks like D&T and TNN. We can definitely win the fair fight and the card disadvantage of E Tutor might not be worth it in the matchup.

E) Yeah, E Tutor definitely opens the door to a lot of avenues in the sideboard. You dedicate 2 slots for the actual tutor, but when sideboarding, you can actually bring in more cards.

For example: bringing in 2 Faerie Macabre vs 2 Enlightened Tutor + 1 Grafdiggers Cage vs reanimator. It might be a turn slower, but it gives me more access to defend myself against those decks.

Thanks again for the suggestion and Ill continue testing :).

[KoDiamonds]

Hate to double post but I wanted to update on my testing. Played 3 post board games vs my friend on elves yesterday. Small sample size, but very promising results.
My sideboard plan was
+1 Grafdiggers Cage, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +2 Zealous Persecution, +2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Containment Priest, +1 Engineered Plague
-3 Dark Confidant, -3 Lingering Souls, -3 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice.

Won all 3 post board matchups. Going T1 Deathrite, T2 Hymn, EOT Enlightened Tutor for plague, cast plague.

Other game I had Zealous Persecution so my opponent was left with an almost empty board. Tutored up Jitte with Enlightened Tutor and proceeded to win.

Its such a versatile card. Fetch up plague if youre behind. Fetch up jitte if youre ahead. Already tutored jitte? Tutor up Cage if youre scared of Natural order or Canonist if youre afraid of Glimpse. Looking forward to how it is vs other matchups. But so far, even having access to 4 Ethersworn Canonist with E Tutor vs storm has already sold me.

[Megadeus]

Played a somewhat different GB Green Sun version tonight. Went 3-0-1 with a weird set of match ups, but it felt pretty good.

4 Deathrite
4 Goyf
2 Scooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Hystrodon
1 Titania, Priestess of Argoth
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Skinrender
2 Eternal Witness

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Natural Order

2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
9 Fetches

SB:
2 Choke
2 Lost Legacy
2 Krosan Grip
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dread of Night
2 Cabal Therapy

Deck felt tight. NO package might be bad, but I like having an over the top finisher. Titania is castable, but pretty solid at getting with NO too. Skinrender and Hystrodon are bad and loose, but with those and the edicts, I really didn't want to lose to True Name. Deck was good though. I love having a solid mana base. Any better green Sun targets I'm missing?

[Claymore]

Ichneumon Druid
Grim Flayer
Ulvenwald Tracker

off of the top of my head. Flayer is good if you're aiming at getting through True Name.

3 Natural Order seems excessive.

If you want to get a little more jankier against Delver, there's Skylasher, Daybreak Ranger, or even Master of the Wild Hunt.

You could probably find use for some Golgari Charms against True Name or use it as regeneration against these removal heavy blue decks. Troll Ascetic or Thrun could be useful as well.

[CptHaddock]

For real GB Trashcan is a legit deck. Imo Flayer is really good when all you are playing against are Delver decks.

[Megadeus]

Deck felt good. Rock Solid (heh) mana base. I am torn on cutting down on green sun targets and adding bad things like Night's Whispers or worse things like Sinkholes and going full on Eva Green.

[Jain_Mor]

Sorry for delay, busy week!

So it was a small local GPT, only 14 players, but that still meant 5 rounds and cut to a top 4. I went 4-1 in swiss, and lost in finals of top 4.

That brings my record to 16-6 across the 3 events I've competed in with this deck since top ban, I'll post all my matchups below. Perhaps it would be good to keep a record of how people do against each deck so we can get some data on our strengths and weaknesses and change the deck accordingly?

I registered:

21
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
4 Wasteland

4 STP
4 TS
2 IoK
4 DRS

2 Hymn
1 Decay
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 SFM
1 Library

2 Liliana
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Council's Judgment
3 Lingering souls

1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

Side
2 Surgical
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labia
2 Cont Priest
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Lost Legacy
2 Zealous
1 Deluge
1 Choke

Deck list choices: I really wanted to play lingering souls, so I played SFM as well... I exchanged maindeck persecutions for a deluge and some of the souls. They all play similar roles (killing X/1s and avoiding TNN, with souls being better against planeswalkers but worse against X/1 decks that don't attack like elves) I wanted to play hymn as well to add more card advantage and combo interaction so I cut a decay and library. I usually reserve two sideboard slots as card advantage cards for other midrange matchups, I've been running deluge in one of those slots for a while and have been happy, the other slot is usually a walker (garruk) or painful truths or something, but I chose to give choke a try because what's the chance the midrange decks I play are Jund instead of Uxx, plus it has utility against combo (spoiler alert I pay Jund twice.)


Round 1: White Stax
G1 Discard stops an armegeddon, bob keeps cards flowing, drs stops wasteland recursion, and lands pay for tabernacle, council's judgment stops him from stabilising with a trading post
G2 Lingering souls laughs at humility and discard stops everything else.

Sideboard: +1 Surgical, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Lost Legacy +2 ZP (I know he plays elspeth and goats). -1 Jitte, -1 Deluge -4 STP
Win 2-0, Record: 1-0


Round 2: UB Sneak and Show (Lim Dul's First Day at School)
G1 I mull to 4 and slowly die to cantrips (jk I get emrakuled after the cantrips)
G2 Discard and hatebears do their job
G3 Discard and hatebears do their job

Sideboard: +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist +2 Spirit, +2 Priest +2 Teeg +1 Lost Legacy +1 Choke. -4 STP, -1 Jitte, -1 BSK, -1 SFM, -1 Decay, -1 Deluge, -3 Souls
Win 2-1, Record: 2-0


Round 3: UR Sneak and Show
G1 On the draw, FoW my discard and kills me T2
G2 Oops... I had DRS, Bob and a Spirit of Lab in play and he had a sneak attack and I knew he had two griselbrands in hand that he couldnt draw cards off of because of spirit. Given this is my 3rd time playing magic after a hiatus I forgive my self, but I forgot sneak attack can sneak defend, and attacked with my bob and spirit. He puts in grisel brand, blocks spirit and draws 14. Despite this I still nearly won, though after all those cards its no wonder he had a key spell pierce for a winning surgical extraction.

Sideboard: +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist +2 Spirit, +2 Priest +2 Teeg +1 Lost Legacy +1 Choke. -4 STP, -1 Jitte, -1 BSK, -1 SFM, -1 Decay, -1 Deluge, -3 Souls
Lose 0-2, Record 2-1


Round 4: Reid BUG (4 Hierarch 4 DRS, TNN + Leovald, no equipment)
G1 I forget what happens, but I'm pretty sure toxic deluge and lingering souls were key to winning
G2 Made up for last round by playing around daze perfectly, racing 2 TNN with 4 lingering tokens and casting liliana for the edict at just the right time to secure the race.

Sideboard: +1 Deluge +1 Choke (I didn't see any heirarchs G1 so I didnt side in persecutions). -2 IoK
Win 2-0, Record 3-1


Round 5: Jund
G1 I cast a SFM, he hymns me taking the bsk and a land, he doesn't need to kill the SFM, and kills everything else I play, I'm stuck on two mana rest of the game and he kills me
G2 Lingering Souls grind a way
G3 I'm flaiing a bit, I have 2 souls token against his liliana, drs, BBE and goyf. I poke liliana with souls to kill her, then deluge for 5 and wipe the board. He plays a bob, I flash back souls and STP bob, win the game from there.

Sideboard: (Wish I didn't have Choke..) +1 Deluge +1 Surgical (for punishing). -2 IoK
Win 2-1, Record 4-1


Top 4, Semis: BR Reanimator
G1 He has chancellor of the annex to stop my T1 discard and then T1s grislbrand. Toxic deluge for 7 isn't enough to save me :P
G2: DRS + Surgical
G3: DRS + Priest + Council's Judgement

Sideboard: +2 Surgical +2 Canonist +2 Spirit +2 Canonist +1 Lost Legacy. -3 SFM -1 Jitte -1 BSK -1 Deluge -3 Souls
Win 2-1, Record 5-1


Top 4, Finals: Jund (again)
G1: He hymns me and I have mana problems
G2: I keep Windswept Wasteland SFMx2 STP Deluge x2, I fetch plains and stp his drs, then drop sfm, he kills it, drop another he kills it. I never draw another source of mana and never get to cast the drs or bobs I draw. He doesn't draw a wasteland either... So in hindsight scrubland would have been better. But I think I would have kept and made the same choices everytime. Thoughts?

Sideboard: (Wish I didn't have Choke..) +1 Deluge +1 Surgical (for punishing). -2 IoK
Lose 0-2, Record 5-2


Overall, Souls great, hymns good, SFMs entirely mediocre and tempo loss if anything. Wish I had another land. I only win combo games 2 and 3, so I'm going to move a lot of discard to the sideboard and focus on the creature decks in G1 since they are the majority of the format. More deluge, removal, maybe 4 souls, maybe just 2 or 1 sfm and keep a jitte and sofai. Souls are fine without equipment. Need something to fill the SFM 2 drop slot, perhpas nothing is better. Hymn is devastating (2/3 of the jund games I died to hymn) I've tried grim flayer a bit, but a 2/2 bear is too slow. Bitterblossom has some appeal. I also want to try jamming more trackers.

Overall Matches: 16-6 (72%)
Overall Games: 34-18 (65%)

Overall Matchup Matches:
Elves 2-0
D&T 5-2
Bant Blade 2-1
BUG 2-0
Czech Pile 1-2
Grixis Delver 2-0
White Stax 4-1
Alluren 2-0
UR S&S 2-5, Post Sideboard: 2-2
UB S&S 2-1, Post Sideboard: 2-0
Ux S&S Total: 4-6, Post Sideboard: 4-2
Infect 2-0
Jund 4-3
BR Reanimator 4-3, Post Sideboard: 4-1

Deck I'll be testing:

21
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Verdant
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
4 Wasteland

3 TS
4 DRS
4 STP

2 Decay
3 Hymn
1 Loam
1 Library
1 Bitterblossom
4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 SFM

2 Liliana
2 Deluge
3 Lingering Souls
1 Judgment

1 Jitte
1 SoFaI

SB
3 Duress
2 Surgical
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of Labia
2 Cont Priest
2 Teeg
2 Zealous

A bit worried about the lack of 1 drops, but if Jund can do it...

[Megadeus]

Sorry for delay, busy week!

So it was a small local GPT, only 14 players, but that still meant 5 rounds and cut to a top 4. I went 4-1 in swiss, and lost in finals of top 4.

That brings my record to 16-6 across the 3 events I've competed in with this deck since top ban, I'll post all my matchups below. Perhaps it would be good to keep a record of how people do against each deck so we can get some data on our strengths and weaknesses and change the deck accordingly?

I registered:

21
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
4 Wasteland

4 STP
4 TS
2 IoK
4 DRS

2 Hymn
1 Decay
4 Bob
4 Goyf
3 SFM
1 Library

2 Liliana
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Council's Judgment
3 Lingering souls

1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

Side
2 Surgical
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labia
2 Cont Priest
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Lost Legacy
2 Zealous
1 Deluge
1 Choke

Deck list choices: I really wanted to play lingering souls, so I played SFM as well... I exchanged maindeck persecutions for a deluge and some of the souls. They all play similar roles (killing X/1s and avoiding TNN, with souls being better against planeswalkers but worse against X/1 decks that don't attack like elves) I wanted to play hymn as well to add more card advantage and combo interaction so I cut a decay and library. I usually reserve two sideboard slots as card advantage cards for other midrange matchups, I've been running deluge in one of those slots for a while and have been happy, the other slot is usually a walker (garruk) or painful truths or something, but I chose to give choke a try because what's the chance the midrange decks I play are Jund instead of Uxx, plus it has utility against combo (spoiler alert I pay Jund twice.)


Round 1: White Stax
G1 Discard stops an armegeddon, bob keeps cards flowing, drs stops wasteland recursion, and lands pay for tabernacle, council's judgment stops him from stabilising with a trading post
G2 Lingering souls laughs at humility and discard stops everything else.

Sideboard: +1 Surgical, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Lost Legacy +2 ZP (I know he plays elspeth and goats). -1 Jitte, -1 Deluge -4 STP
Win 2-0, Record: 1-0


Round 2: UB Sneak and Show (Lim Dul's First Day at School)
G1 I mull to 4 and slowly die to cantrips (jk I get emrakuled after the cantrips)
G2 Discard and hatebears do their job
G3 Discard and hatebears do their job

Sideboard: +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist +2 Spirit, +2 Priest +2 Teeg +1 Lost Legacy +1 Choke. -4 STP, -1 Jitte, -1 BSK, -1 SFM, -1 Decay, -1 Deluge, -3 Souls
Win 2-1, Record: 2-0


Round 3: UR Sneak and Show
G1 On the draw, FoW my discard and kills me T2
G2 Oops... I had DRS, Bob and a Spirit of Lab in play and he had a sneak attack and I knew he had two griselbrands in hand that he couldnt draw cards off of because of spirit. Given this is my 3rd time playing magic after a hiatus I forgive my self, but I forgot sneak attack can sneak defend, and attacked with my bob and spirit. He puts in grisel brand, blocks spirit and draws 14. Despite this I still nearly won, though after all those cards its no wonder he had a key spell pierce for a winning surgical extraction.

Sideboard: +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist +2 Spirit, +2 Priest +2 Teeg +1 Lost Legacy +1 Choke. -4 STP, -1 Jitte, -1 BSK, -1 SFM, -1 Decay, -1 Deluge, -3 Souls
Lose 0-2, Record 2-1


Round 4: Reid BUG (4 Hierarch 4 DRS, TNN + Leovald, no equipment)
G1 I forget what happens, but I'm pretty sure toxic deluge and lingering souls were key to winning
G2 Made up for last round by playing around daze perfectly, racing 2 TNN with 4 lingering tokens and casting liliana for the edict at just the right time to secure the race.

Sideboard: +1 Deluge +1 Choke (I didn't see any heirarchs G1 so I didnt side in persecutions). -2 IoK
Win 2-0, Record 3-1


Round 5: Jund
G1 I cast a SFM, he hymns me taking the bsk and a land, he doesn't need to kill the SFM, and kills everything else I play, I'm stuck on two mana rest of the game and he kills me
G2 Lingering Souls grind a way
G3 I'm flaiing a bit, I have 2 souls token against his liliana, drs, BBE and goyf. I poke liliana with souls to kill her, then deluge for 5 and wipe the board. He plays a bob, I flash back souls and STP bob, win the game from there.

Sideboard: (Wish I didn't have Choke..) +1 Deluge +1 Surgical (for punishing). -2 IoK
Win 2-1, Record 4-1


Top 4, Semis: BR Reanimator
G1 He has chancellor of the annex to stop my T1 discard and then T1s grislbrand. Toxic deluge for 7 isn't enough to save me :P
G2: DRS + Surgical
G3: DRS + Priest + Council's Judgement

Sideboard: +2 Surgical +2 Canonist +2 Spirit +2 Canonist +1 Lost Legacy. -3 SFM -1 Jitte -1 BSK -1 Deluge -3 Souls
Win 2-1, Record 5-1


Top 4, Finals: Jund (again)
G1: He hymns me and I have mana problems
G2: I keep Windswept Wasteland SFMx2 STP Deluge x2, I fetch plains and stp his drs, then drop sfm, he kills it, drop another he kills it. I never draw another source of mana and never get to cast the drs or bobs I draw. He doesn't draw a wasteland either... So in hindsight scrubland would have been better. But I think I would have kept and made the same choices everytime. Thoughts?

Sideboard: (Wish I didn't have Choke..) +1 Deluge +1 Surgical (for punishing). -2 IoK
Lose 0-2, Record 5-2


Overall, Souls great, hymns good, SFMs entirely mediocre and tempo loss if anything. Wish I had another land. I only win combo games 2 and 3, so I'm going to move a lot of discard to the sideboard and focus on the creature decks in G1 since they are the majority of the format. More deluge, removal, maybe 4 souls, maybe just 2 or 1 sfm and keep a jitte and sofai. Souls are fine without equipment. Need something to fill the SFM 2 drop slot, perhpas nothing is better. Hymn is devastating (2/3 of the jund games I died to hymn) I've tried grim flayer a bit, but a 2/2 bear is too slow. Bitterblossom has some appeal. I also want to try jamming more trackers.

Overall Matches: 16-6 (72%)
Overall Games: 34-18 (65%)

Overall Matchup Matches:
Elves 2-0
D&T 5-2
Bant Blade 2-1
BUG 2-0
Czech Pile 1-2
Grixis Delver 2-0
White Stax 4-1
Alluren 2-0
UR S&S 2-5, Post Sideboard: 2-2
UB S&S 2-1, Post Sideboard: 2-0
Ux S&S Total: 4-6, Post Sideboard: 4-2
Infect 2-0
Jund 4-3
BR Reanimator 4-3, Post Sideboard: 4-1

Deck I'll be testing:

21
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Verdant
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept
4 Wasteland

3 TS
4 DRS
4 STP

2 Decay
3 Hymn
1 Loam
1 Library
1 Bitterblossom
4 Bob
4 Goyf
2 SFM

2 Liliana
2 Deluge
3 Lingering Souls
1 Judgment

1 Jitte
1 SoFaI

SB
3 Duress
2 Surgical
2 Canonist
2 Spirit of Labia
2 Cont Priest
2 Teeg
2 Zealous

A bit worried about the lack of 1 drops, but if Jund can do it...
Revoker is a solid 2 drop that really helps combo matches, and is randomly super useful against fair stuff like walkers. Or even naming deathrite when it's more advantageous for you. I used to love it in Deadguy

[tescrin]

Sorry for delay, busy week!
Overall, Souls great, hymns good, SFMs entirely mediocre and tempo loss if anything. Wish I had another land. I only win combo games 2 and 3, so I'm going to move a lot of discard to the sideboard and focus on the creature decks in G1 since they are the majority of the format. More deluge, removal, maybe 4 souls, maybe just 2 or 1 sfm and keep a jitte and sofai. Souls are fine without equipment. Need something to fill the SFM 2 drop slot, perhpas nothing is better. Hymn is devastating (2/3 of the jund games I died to hymn) I've tried grim flayer a bit, but a 2/2 bear is too slow. Bitterblossom has some appeal. I also want to try jamming more trackers.


I think if you're down on SFM, doing 2x SFM, 1x Jitte, 1x SoFaI is perfectly fine. It gives you the outs to Burn, Elves, and D&T you want, without dealing with the overhead of clunky or obnoxious cards like the 3rd SFM or the BSK. Personally, even in Blue, I can't for the life of me enjoy searching up BSK. It's such obnoxious tempo loss when they kill the token. It's why I often kill opposing tokens. "Yes you got a 3 for 1, but you spent 4 mana doing it, and the card advantage is useless for 3 turns."

I know that it sucks when I don't have the removal, and maybe I'm just supposed to jam it... but meh. I only tutor BSK when I'm trying to get them to remove SFM.

That said, SFM is not an ideal T2 play. She's best when it's T3/T4 and you have a boardstate or their removal is waning. Gives you more time to decide what will win the game. I do think you should keep her in for the obnoxious MUs, because when you see that Jitte against Burn, Elves, D&T, opposing DGA, Infect, etc.. it feels great; like your deck is unstoppable. And there are times where her subtle CA or ability to drop in equips uncountered comes up and it just isn't noticable.

If you're not in Blue and you're not running Mother of Runes, I really don't think going above 2xSFM works well anyway. It makes you want to run BSK when you do, and BSK often isn't very good if you can't protect the SFM/Token except fringe plays like TES-Gobbos.

I'm happy to be wrong, but even my experiences in blue have left me often cutting the BSK and going back and forth with it. It's also *super* weak to Jace where it costs you 8 mana per set.

EDIT: But consider a third equip anyway. I think SoLaS is often reasonable, and SoBaM as a token maker and "super unblockable" sword is okay for grinding.

[Megadeus]

I think in this deck if you have souls and goyf you can get away with no BSkull. Unfortunately otherwise you probably need it in Deadguy or DnT where you just don't have a fatty. And like you said, often I just use SFM to get BSkull as a pseudo duress for removal. Is everyone low on rhino now? I feel like rhino junk is still really good, especially if true names and leoturds are floating around a bunch. Also how does everyone feel about decay? I have almost found it somewhat unnecessary and kind of like having edict main for marit lage, true name, or emrakul, or just playing like vindicate to go harder on LD maybe?

[Jain_Mor]

Agreed with all of the above.

I think its hilarious that a lot of people in the discussion threads were claiming decay wasn't be played so much because of counter top, and that even with the banning its presence would stay the same. I can't speak for actual statistics (though I would beat on it being the case) but I always played 4, and last event I registered just 1 and it was honestly fine. Edict would be good I imagine, I play council's to answer TNN and Jace.

Revoker is interesting, but doesn't feel like a main deck card.

Man, I love rhino, I was on that hard when UR delver with treasure cruise was the thing to beat, but he's smaller than anglers, dies to stp, baleful strix and fatal push now and doesn't provide any value. I think tracker is a better card in midrange.

Does anyone have records of their matchups with this archetype? I would like to collect more.

[tescrin]

If you were choosing between Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad which would you take? I realize you'd probably say "Garruk Relentless" but I'm in Esper. I just figure people here actually use Jank since I'm from this batch.

Elspeth is harder to cast, requiring 2 of the 3 duals if you have 3 basics. Sorin can be cast off of 3 basics + anything.

That said, Elspeth seems *way* stronger, and my experience with her has been very positive. She starts at 5 loyalty after either ability, and both abilities are a house. The tokens may not have an ability, but being White is quite good if you run into a crusader.

Sorin's big positive is that if you have 4 dudes or more, his buff is bigger, is permanent, he's easier to cast by a smidgen, and his dudes have Lifelink, which is meh but it could be worse. The thing about *his* buff though is a single 1/1 swing will make him a 4-mana half-of-abad moon. When Elspeth pumps, she can be hit by a TNN, Delver, or similar, and still be crapping dudes or giving a beater flying.

I'm sticking with Elspeth for tonight since she's been doing work on occasion, and being a battleship in the Loyalty department makes her more versatile/easier to use. That said, all Souls/Blossom tokens being 2/1 or 3/1 if he lived a couple turns.. that's brutal.


EDIT:
@Jain on Revoker
yeah... he was ok. I liked Revoker as a way to pump goyf and stall D&T a bit*. That said, my local D&T guys pack upwards of 3 rips and I'd get hosed G2/G3 between taxes and rips..
*I was also desperate for ways to increase my Miracles MU, and a must answer 2-drop that turned off Balance wasn't the worst way to screw with things. Helping Sneakshow, Storm, Belcher, and Elves is a plus though! Consider him depending how heavy the combo meta is in your area as turning off Wirewood Symbiote can get your Jitte online, and Revoker with a Sword can block Crusader and move on to bigger and better things.

Side Note: I also agree that people were overvaluing Decay. It's interesting when you run into one now, as it's an actual choice. Kolaghan's is just better a lot of the time IMO, so if you can choose, why not choose the in-color 2-for-1 that can be a threat, removal, disruption, a timewalk, or even kill a BSK? Fact is, Rec Sage and QPM can win the game and Decay literally can't. In this deck, I'd consider either 2 Pulse or 2 Vindicate, and replace anything else with QPMs or Rec sages, depending if you are looking for CA or aggro

EDIT 2:
I'd agree that Tracker, between being color light and CA seems way better. Rhino does have *some* value against Strix, in that he'll give you a 9-point swing for your trouble, but Tracker will quickly dig through your deck, more quickly the shittier you draw. IMO, just run SoFaI and SoBaM to get around the blockers.

@Mega
In Esper (cheating since I get counterspells but..) I'm only (as of tonight) finally adding a couple vindicates, and it's only because having 4 plows has been biting me in my local meta. Honestly, even in Junk I'd just start running QPMs. Exalted is awesome and lets Goyf attack through Gurmags, QPM doesn't care about CMC, and can be a 3/3 when you need a threat. Decay is good, but it's mostly good against Delver, and frankly Push will do just as well or better against them since the whole point of Decay is mostly to dodge Daze at this point. If they force your Push.. seems like a fine trade [unless you lose ;)] That said.. needing GB as opposed to B can also cause you to lose between Stifles and Wastelands.

[KoDiamonds]

I dont think cutting decays for Judgment, vindicate, and maelstrom pulse is a good idea. A huge difference between 2 mana and 3 mana removal spells. It would make things super clunky.

[Megadeus]

Thinking of playing this at the team event in SCG Atlanta

4 Deathrite
4 Goyf
2 Scooze
3 Dark Confidant
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Grim Flayer
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Eternal Witness

3 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
9 Fetches

Brutality in theory seems great. Pushed me to 11 main board removal but 6 spot discard.

[tescrin]

Thinking of playing this at the team event in SCG Atlanta

I was going to comment on SFM and Plow and realized you were straight BG. Goin' crazy I see!

I think swapping a GSZ and an Edict and maybe a brutality for Decays is prudent. You're *really* weak to RiPs and a lot of your removal lacks quality IMO. Having 4 Edict effects is more than enough. it takes some pressure off of your 4-mana Arty/Enchant removal being a 1-of, while leaving it as a nice package.

I'm not sure what EWit is doing either, but I think she's in your "Go big or Go Home" slots, and I think if you went with Garruk R's there you'd have some much needed grindy potential since you lack token cards.


Personally, I'd also look for how to fit in Blossoms as those win me all kinds of matches I have no business winning, and when you're running your own goyfs it's to die for. But.. i'd have to advocate removing Bob or something, and that seems bad; or adding white; which you're obviously avoiding.

[Claymore]

I think I'd run it 4 Thoughtseize/2 Brutality to increase the change of T1 Discard removal, T2 Power 2 drop. Your 2 slot is congested and you don't have a lot of chaff to discard early for Brutality - not counting EWitt, since that's late game recursion.

Volrath's Stronghold could be good in this build.

The build is weak to Rest in Peace but I haven't seen that card anywhere outside 2x in the board for DnT. Most everyone else just leans on Surgical.

What's your board look like? I think Blossoms would be good there, along with Dread of Night.

[Megadeus]

I think I'd run it 4 Thoughtseize/2 Brutality to increase the change of T1 Discard removal, T2 Power 2 drop. Your 2 slot is congested and you don't have a lot of chaff to discard early for Brutality - not counting EWitt, since that's late game recursion.

Volrath's Stronghold could be good in this build.

The build is weak to Rest in Peace but I haven't seen that card anywhere outside 2x in the board for DnT. Most everyone else just leans on Surgical.

What's your board look like? I think Blossoms would be good there, along with Dread of Night.

My thought as well on Rest in Peace. It's rarely played. I see your point on TS and Collective.

My board probably is something like:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Dread of Night
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Surgical/Maybe something else?
2 Lost Legacy
1 Something?

Can't quite remember the last few cards at the gym right now. Is EPlague worth a slot? I really like my SB cards to be flexible.

[tescrin]

Is EPlague worth a slot? I really like my SB cards to be flexible.

I'm pretty big on E-Plague. Good outside of tribal for:
- TNN
- Lingering Souls
- Grixis naming Human (lol) or elemental if you draw it while you're way behind
- D&T naming Human or something, depends on board state

you get the idea. It can hit your own bobs if you name human, so consider that, but I think I've stolen a few games with it recently from Grixis and DGA by it coming out of nowhere and locking their outs/hand. It's worth mentioning that I normally run it in a tutor board though; so I have extra incentive.

That said, I also think it's fine as a 1-of, but generally not one you want to spam.

EDIT: Did you consider running a pair of Jitte? I think those would up your game as well, given the load of 2/1s you have

EDIT 2: On RiP; I can see it as a meta call; but I think a lot of Blade players happily run it as a 1 of. I do with a pair of tutors and have been Wololo-ing people on tutor boards (even in this room!), so while I am hardly exerting a large force on the legacy meta, I do notice that the Bant forum has dudes running RiPs too. disabling a DRS to get their DRS + Goyf + etc.. is a good deal. It's also personal preference that I don't like getting OHKO'd by a card; since I've been RiP'd to death too many times.

[Megadeus]

I'm pretty big on E-Plague. Good outside of tribal for:
- TNN
- Lingering Souls
- Grixis naming Human (lol) or elemental if you draw it while you're way behind
- D&T naming Human or something, depends on board state

you get the idea. It can hit your own bobs if you name human, so consider that, but I think I've stolen a few games with it recently from Grixis and DGA by it coming out of nowhere and locking their outs/hand. It's worth mentioning that I normally run it in a tutor board though; so I have extra incentive.

That said, I also think it's fine as a 1-of, but generally not one you want to spam.

EDIT: Did you consider running a pair of Jitte? I think those would up your game as well, given the load of 2/1s you have

EDIT 2: On RiP; I can see it as a meta call; but I think a lot of Blade players happily run it as a 1 of. I do with a pair of tutors and have been Wololo-ing people on tutor boards (even in this room!), so while I am hardly exerting a large force on the legacy meta, I do notice that the Bant forum has dudes running RiPs too. disabling a DRS to get their DRS + Goyf + etc.. is a good deal. It's also personal preference that I don't like getting OHKO'd by a card; since I've been RiP'd to death too many times.

I've thought about playing Jitte. Just don't know if it was worth it. Might be fine with a dryad Arbor to fetch too. Yeah I didn't really think about my huge weakness to a resolved RIP. That wasn't nearly as bad when I was running NO because I could just get Woody

[Megadeus]

Went 3-1 to earn a bye for our next quarterly here in Atlanta with basically the above list but I have gotten Grim Flayers yet. One round was a bye because I forgot to sign up, but so far I'm 6-1 with the deck. I played a couple Doomwake Giants to top my curve rather than NO. Lack of Decaymay have been bad, but I still have liked Edict a lot.