[Deck] The Rock

[AggroSteve]

deed usually seals the deal for me against affinity (playing 2 main + 2 side) but if some extra hate for affinity is requestet, i would definitely go with kataki over serenity, he just wrecks the whole deck and that for the rest of the game (which should not take long after he hits play)

[kubalonek]

I played last week in small 4-round local legacy tournament going 3-1 and ending 3rd. Below is the list, rather standard one. 61 card is a result of adding bojuka in the last few minutes. The split 2/2 Deed and Explosives was just amazing.

2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mox Diamond
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate


Sideboard
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
2 Go for the Throat
2 Engineered Explosives


Round 1 - Bant (with vials and Managra/Karakas)

In game one 3rd turn vindicate destroys vial on 1 counters then hymn takes out goyf and KoTR. Triple Mangara hits my creatures fortunatelly I have wasteland to kill karakas. Sensei provides enough fuel to rush the opponent which plays only hierarchs. Time left to the end of round - 10 minutes.
In second game from both sides creatures are killed and with clear board on my side (only STD) and 2 noble hierarchs on OPP side time ended.

Side : In 2x GftT - Out 1 Vindicate 1 Verdict

1-0 (1-0)
---------------------------------------------------------
Round 2 - Dredge

In game one I played turn 1 confidant and turn 2 KoTR but he killed me at his second turn so I even couldn't search for bojuka with KoTR.
In second game I played again turn 1 confidant then add deed and tripple KoTR and rushed opponent over.
Game three was long war. Opp with 1 land that was destroyed with wasteland was only drawing. My confidant was joined by goyf and supported with deed. However after drawing land opponent started to run his combo and reanimated troll and create a bunch of zombies. KoTR joined the party. Having 2 mox diamond in play I topdecked engineered explosives and casted it with 5 counters to kill troll. Then sacrificed deed for 2 and kill opponent in last turn of 5 after round time ended with huge KoTR.

Side : In 2x Explosives, 4 Plagues - Out 4x Hymn 1x Verdict 1x Vindicate

2-0 (3-1)
---------------------------------------------------------
Round 3 - The Gate

First game was totally one sided. Discard supported by Abyssal Persecutor and 2 Hyppies was enough to fly me to death.
Game 2 with initial discard war and innocent bloods from my opponent side I stabilized situation with Confidant and Goyf getting Sensei that allowed to draw everything I wanted to protect Goyf that was later joined by KoTR and fellows made the game.
Game 3 I started with 1st turn Hymn taking all 2 swamps from opponent hand. He topdeck one from the top but I added KoTR (no innocent blood) and start to rush adding. Confidant was eaten with Gatekeeper of Malakir and goyf was eaten by hippie and spinning darkness. Being at 6 life opponent cast Vampire Nighthawk and added Volraths stronghold what meant that I have to kill him as soon as possible (I had to draw any removal). Fortunatelly I had sensei. At the end of opponent turn looked and 3 top cards and nothing. Used KoTR to shuffle and fetch for Fetchland. Looked at top 3 nothing. Sacrificed fetch looked at 3 top and found GftT. Killed nighthawk and swung for the win.

Side : In 2x GftT - Out 1x Verdict 1x Bojuka

3-0 (5-2)
---------------------------------------------------------
Round 4 - Elves

Game 1 I played confidant on turn 1 and KoTR on turn 2. Opponent comboed at his 2nd turn.
Game 2 I was screwed and got turn 3 NO/progenitus (it was a sideboard tech that I did'nt expected) = GG.

Side : In 4x Plague - Out 4x Vindicate

3-1 (5-4)

Finished 3rd. I really enjoy playing the deck and it was first tournament that I played with rock that was fully mine after few months of collecting cards.

[Arsenal]

I'd replace Perimeter Captain with more spot removal to be honest. Path to Exile, Go for the Throat, Ghastly Demise, etc. And yes, Kataki is a much better SB card versus Affinty, but I personally run the E Tutor sideboard plan, so I run a singleton Serenity in place of Kataki.

[sdematt]

And now for the tournament report.

The Rock:

3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Maze
1 Karakas


3 Top
4 Swords
2 Deed
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Jitte
1 SoFI

2 Stoneforge
4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 Confidant

Board:
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Plague
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tariff



I woke up early to get my taxes done, then sped off to the event site, leaving a little early to give myself enough time to resleeve and lend/get the cards I need to get to play. 1/2 way to the event sit, I get a call from my friend saying he can't attend, so I have to turn around and drive 20 minutes out of the way to pick up the cards at his house. After that, I have to take the long way to the even site, running into traffic, construction, wrong turns, and rallying down deserted farm roads. I get to the site five minutes before registration ends, loan out some cards, get some cards, resleeve, and shuffle. Pairings go up, and I am disappointed.

Round 1: Dave with Team America

I had just stayed up the night before testing with Dave, since he was new to the deck. I wasn't keen on playing him, since I knew the ins and outs of his playstyle, and where his weakness really showed in his deck design against the Rock.

In Game 1, it's a battle of attrition as he Stifles and Wastelands me, but I recover by getting basics. He lays an early (T4) Tombstalker, but I've got the removal. We go back and forth, and I wasteland him out of blue. He stalls for a bit and I manage to land Top. I drown him in card selection and proceed to win after a hard-fought 30-minute game. I didn't see a Jace, but I knew it was somewhere.

Board in: Enlightened Tutors, Crypt, Spellbomb, Revoker
Board out: Random stuff.

In Game 2, he counters my first turn Top, then proceeds to Hymn me, taking a Swords and Dark Confidant. I play a T2 Goyf at 3/4, but he lands EE and blows it. I hold back a Jitte and Stoneforge until after EE, but he Hymns them away. He lands a Tombstalker, but I rip Swords for it. We go back and forth and I build up my mana. He builds up to 6 mana and casts another Tombstalker, and I Vindicate. He Wastelands me a full four times here, and I'm getting pissed. I draw into Goyf, which is now a 5/6, and start on the beatdown. I drop Knight at an 8/8 for good measure, but he plays Consuming Vapours. In response, I go for a Maze, knowing he has few threats left and no Wastelands. It pays off, he gets another Tombstalker and I stall him out. 5-6 turns later I draw into a Vindicate and get rid of his Tombstalker, and drop a 10/10 or so Knight. I proceed to beat him down from 32 or so with the Knight.

Score: 2-0 games, 1-0 Rounds

Round 2: Jason with traditional Zoo

I had worked out some slots with Jason a few days previous, trying to optimize his list. I figured this was the worst matchup in the room unless I ripped really well. I opened a nice hand of Fetch, Scrub, Thoughtseize, Confidant, Vindicate, Deed, Hymn. I keep and go on the discard plan, but I don't draw more lands. I drop my creatures, but they get bolted. I never hit a third land, even though he wins on turn 10 or so. Such utter failure.

Board: Enlightened Tutors, Dueling Grounds, Crypt and Spellbomb (for Knight and Grim)
Board out: Hymn, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 random

In Game 2, I mull to 6 and open a Karakas-Swamp + 4 somewhat spicy cards. My creatures gets removed, I stall on two lands. Again, he has a slow game, but I have the land screw, even with 24 lands. I wish him good luck in the next rounds.

Score: 2-2 games, 1-1 Rounds

Round 3: Arnold with R/B Goblins

Game 1 is off to a slow start, but he keeps me even slow with 3 Ports online. I can't break through the Port web well, but I manage to drop a Confidant, which he Incinerators. I die from massive Goblin beatdown.

Board in: E tutor, Plagues, Dueling Grounds
Out: Hymn, some Vindicates

Game 2 is the worst game of Magic I've ever played, I'm thinking. Turn 1, I drop Top with a Wasteland, to bait out a Wasteland in his hand. He does. I drop a Bayou and Top, seeing all 3 drops on Top, and no Plagues. He pulls the god draw and quadruple Wastelands me in the first bit of the game. I recover to 3 lands and land Goyf and Jitte it up. I block one and take out a bit of his team, but he Warren Weirdings. I drop a very large Knight, he Perishes, and I get blown out by multiple Piledrivers. I'm on tilt at the moment, but I tell him thanks for the games and best of luck. Inside, I want to die. Freakin' Goblins.

Score: 2-4 games, 1-2 Rounds

Round 4: Niko with U/w Merfolk

I've played Niko before, and I know he's on Merfolk. I keep a spicy discard filled hand, and blow up everything he plays. I 6-for-1 him with a Deed, and he scoops.

In: Tutors, Plagues, Dueling Grounds

Game 2 I drop huge Knights (3 of them) in the mid-to-late game while controlling the early game with Vindicate and Swords. I Karakas then Swords a Kira at one point. Eventually, I rip Enlightened for a Plague and massacre him. He's a good sport.

Score: 4-4 games, 2-2 rounds

Round 5: Po-wen with mono U Merfolk

Again, I know he's on Merfolk, but I've never met the guy. He's a nice guy, and we play the game. This was the best game I played all day: Thoughtseize, Hymn, Confidant, Goyf, Knight, Jitte, victory. This is how it's supposed to go.

Same sideboarding as before.

Game 2, I'm in a shit position: I get a critical Vindicate and Deed Countered, and he's got Sovereign and two LoA on board to my 5/5 Knight. I play and resolve Stoneforge and grab SoFI, and get it in play. I use combat tricks to pump Knight and get a Maze. I take out 1 of his Lords with shenanigans, and then beat in for 12 with a Jitte and Sofi online. I blow his team, then untap with Maze. He can't get there, and scoops.

Score: 6-4 games, 3-2 in rounds.

We go to the nearest place to eat and grab some food, but I know I can't make Top 8 (you needed 10 and not 9 points for Top 8). My friend playing 43 Lands gets in, and plays a grueling 80 minute round against Painter-Grindstone. Eventually, the Zoo player and the Painter player face off, with Painter getting a nut draw in Game 3.

Props: The deck doing what it's supposed to do, SOFI, etc.
Slops: Landscrew with 24 lands? Fuck you. Goblins quad-Wastelanding? fuck that.

------

Overall, I'm at a crossroads: How do we beat Goblins, especially with Ports? Maybe I just got nut-drawed and I'm discouraged, but it was such a horrible loss I'm wondering what's happened. Right now, we're great at mid-range beats (I can beat Painter, Merfolk, other Rock, etc.) but I feel we're having trouble with some combo (TES or High Tide) and Super aggro (Goblins, some Zoo variants).

Maybe it's just the good draws, but I'm wondering if we're perhaps in the middle of a widening crevasse between the two styles of speed wins.

-Matt

[novatinhu]

I dont have all this problem against goblins, but zoo and folks are giving me serious problems...

[kubalonek]

The problem with combo is that you don't have any answer except extirpate. With tutor package you may put 1 Ethersworn Canonist to slow them down and rip their hand with discard in a meanwhile(turn 2 canonist should give some time).

[sdematt]

The local TES player was out of town (and took my Karakas! Bastard! :P) so I didn't pack storm hate.

-Matt

[Plague Sliver]

You basically would have won all your matches if you played Zoo...(bad joke)

In all seriousness, though, you are right in admitting that the Rock has problems against aggro, which is what the metagame consists of in our area. Dave also finished out of T8 contention running TA, losing many similar matchups.

Maybe there are things in your SB that you can use to improve your position. The Tariffs and grave hate were dead cards - did you ever side them in? IMO, Plague doesn't do enough unless you have mana acceleration. It doesn't do enough when you get it out T3, and even then you need 2 to really be winning.

Sucks that your Goblins opponent quad-wastelanded you. No fetching for basics?

Did you have Karakas in your deck list? In your play by play, you describing targeting Kira with Karakas.

Take my feedback with a grain of salt ... I am obviously not skilled in the ways of the Rock. But I admire your honesty in terms of assessing the deck for what it is. I did play discard at one time before I realized countering something was almost always better.

[Arsenal]

Matt, how'd you like the E Tutor package throughout the day? I've LOVED it so far, and really don't see the point of not running it; it "dodges" discard to a reasonable degree, it "solves" a lot of problems in that you have a wide variety of answers to disrupt from difficult angles. I suppose it also gets better if you're already running the Mystic package as you'll have more live targets for E Tutor if you can't draw a Mystic.

[sdematt]

I didn't find it too bad at all. I don't like the proposition of not having 4 Plagues though; Ideally, I'd run Tutors and a full set of Plagues.

I had gravehate since I knew James was playing 43 Lands and someone else was playing Dredge.

Tariffs would have been good against the Hypergenesis player and Mani with Painter combo (Emrakul board plan).

The lands that I drew against Goblins were all non-fetches before I landed the Goyf/Knight.

The main problem with Goblins is that it literally pukes out guys, no matter what you do. They have so much card advantage, it's ridiculous. Merfolk I was fine with, Goblins not so much. 2 Plagues are needed to seal the deal.

I would have done exceptionally well at this tournament had I played Dutch Stax :P

-Matt

[2Rach]

How do we beat Goblins, especially with Ports?
Mox Diamonds, seriously. It helps against their land destruction and gets Goyfs out turn 1 and Knights out turn 2. Also, what's your sideboarding against them like(w/ the list above)? Maybe there's something else we can help with if you really don't want Moxes in your list.

That said, game 2 was just bad luck/keep. What was your full hand?

EDIT:
Also, to much grave hate, especially since you have Enlightened Tutors.

[Scopeye]

@sdematt : If you are having torubles against fast aggro like gobos or zoo maybe you should try to up the sword count to 4-7. I know path to exile goes against the LD plan but I think LD plan is bad against those decks anyways since they can survive with only 1-2 lands.

I have currently started testing a more controllish version since the announcement of Phyrexian Canceller. I have removed Goyf and put them in. I also upped the deed count to 3-4 (still testing) and some EE's in md and sb. I will put up the results of the deck later after more testing but right now the control version is working pretty nice.

I also have problems with the combo matchups (both with goyf and canceller versions) and they are a big enough of every meta to need some sb. The most success I had with my sb was with Leyline of sanctity and discard but the resiliant versions can still go off pretty easly. Another card I will test against combo is oppression and chains of mephistopheles

[sdematt]

I was originally playing 6 Swords, but my friends said it was too hateful on aggro and the Mystic package was better, so I thought I'd try it out.

Plus, E. Tutor also searches for Top, which can be nice.

I've tried the Mox Diamonds so many times. They've been so hot and cold for me it's ridiculous. Sometimes I'm getting nuts draws, other times I'm literally doing nothing and wishing they were removal. Ugh.

I've got exams until the 23rd, but I'll try to keep posting.

I did like the Sword/Jitte package, especially against the Folk. But, I feel like Gobbo-lins are the real issue with me. Mind you, again, I have the absolute aggro meta. It's literally ALL combo or aggro, so I may go to Stax.



-Matt

[Arsenal]

Mystic package seems a tad too slow versus Goblins, you're not swinging with an equipped guy until your 4th turn which may not matter if they vomited their hand onto the table already (casting Mystic turn 2, keeping mana open to flash in Jitte at eot turn 3 means you're limited in removal options if they start rolling).

[f|i[p]]

Brought this list to a tourney last sunday...

Mox less build

23 land.. basic lands of rock.. with Ith karakas 4, wasteland...

The list
13 creatures
4 knight
4 bob
4 tarmo
1 eternal witness

4 swords
4 vindicate
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition
4 hymn
2 pernicious
2 EE
4 sensei

Sb was a bit funky
3 gerrards verdict
3 extirpate
1 bog
1 eternal witness
1 elspeth --- was never used...was also another E plague...
3 edict
2 compost --- replaced e plagues since I saw none and saw tons of black decks...It was a bad choice however...I think...
1 the tabernacle

Toook this to top 8. at a 55 person tourney.. The top 8 just split the winnings because people were tired..

Tourney report..
Rnd 1 Tezz Affinity
Won game 1 easily..
Lost game 2 via disciple
Won game 3
Didnt see any deeds this game...

Rnd 2 Affinity with red and etched champion
Won game 1 vial Kotr maze of ith
Lost game 2 via Ravager Etched champion
Draw game 3... I ended up with 1 life.(he has used his 3 burn spells).. After I deed away all his lands... hez left with 3 cranial plating.. while im left with a bob which I plowed.. I still have bob in hand stp and EE... and sensei on top of my library... I couldn't find any threats no matter how much I fetched...

Rnd 3 TES
Lost game 1..combos with 16 tokens
Won game 2 via extirpate then discard...
Won game 3 as I was hoping he would go for empty the warrens with tabernacle in my hand...He did... alas... confidant drew me into more discard and he couldnt rebuild his hand..

Rnd 4 D and T
Won game 1 easily.. I hymn away 2 lands...
Lost game 2 easily - I couldnt find any white sources.. VIndicate and stp got stuck in my hand
Lost game 3 lost to serra avenger.. I didnt have enough mana to EE.. and Kotr couldnt block.. it... was down to 3..

Rnd 5 Thopter
Lost game 1
Won game 2 via extirpate
Won game 3 via extirpate.. and baiting top with 2 cc spells

Rnd 6 Merfs
Lost game 1 due to speed
Won game 2
Won game 3

Top 8...
I was facing the mirror in top 8.. but they didnt want to play anymore.. so we just decided to split the prizes....

The deck wasnt good to me.. but It still worked...
I agree with matt that I think the decks problems is really fast aggro....Gobs and zoo....are the main concern...
With me it goes 50/50 with zoo still, but I think its slightly in their favor... Bolts,fireblast and price from the side are a head ache... Goblin ring leaders are my primary concern against goblins...

Im still debating about moxen....

I was always happy with eternal witness.. As a one of it can get back your discard.. swords , vindicate, knight. Deed... and is good for almost any match... I wouldnt recommend her as a 2 of however... just 1 seemed like the perfect fit for me....

[sdematt]

I was playing Eternal Witness for eons until the format sped up with Survival combo. I found I always wanted it to be another piece of removal, not recursion FOR removal.

I may go back to Doran and try him out again. At a 5/5, even with the colour issue, he "turns off" Piledriver and is a fat body to boot. Just brainstorming here.

And the Sword package is better against Folk and Zoo (but moreso Folk), you're right.

-Matt

[2Rach]

I've tried the Mox Diamonds so many times. They've been so hot and cold for me it's ridiculous. Sometimes I'm getting nuts draws, other times I'm literally doing nothing and wishing they were removal. Ugh.
Yeah, I experience that. I've tried with and without, but it's the card that made the Goblins matchup winnable for me. Like I've said before, you'll hate it at times but it's necessary against some decks.

[Scopeye]

I was originally playing 6 Swords, but my friends said it was too hateful on aggro and the Mystic package was better, so I thought I'd try it out.

I've tried the Mox Diamonds so many times. They've been so hot and cold for me it's ridiculous. Sometimes I'm getting nuts draws, other times I'm literally doing nothing and wishing they were removal. Ugh.

I did like the Sword/Jitte package, especially against the Folk. But, I feel like Gobbo-lins are the real issue with me. Mind you, again, I have the absolute aggro meta. It's literally ALL combo or aggro, so I may go to Stax.
t

Well you say your meta consists only of combo or aggro so I don't think it is wrong to go too hateful on aggro and up the sword counts since it is a meta call. I would rather be over hating in a defined meta than try to prepare for random decks.

I think equipments can definetly be very good but they are also pretty slow against decks like gobos-zoo and combo. And to be honest I always found rock's matchup with merfolk pretty favourable without equipments.

[Arsenal]

Cutting 2 Stoneforge and 2 equipment and replacing with 2 Path to Exile and 2 Doran is entirely reasonable in an aggro meta.

[AggroSteve]

i will test the following version of the deck, including doran and darkblast, which should help the goblin matchup a bit, besides it is going to be a mox-less build, since i felt them to be inconsistent and horrible topdecks

23 lands (including 3 wasteland, 1 canopy, 1 karakas, 1 maze)

4x confidant
4x goyf
4x knight
2x doran

4x thoughtseize
2x inquisition (right now its 3 because i still miss the 4th thoughtseize)
4x hymn

4x swords to plowshares
4x vindicate
2x deed
1x darkblast
3x divining top

sideboard
4x extirpate
2x deed
4x diabolic edict
3x gaddock teeg
2x krosan grip

without the moxen the manabase is a bit less stable though, thus making the merfolk matchup a bit harder, goblins i still not that favorable but darkblast is a blast here, and doran really helps a lot too

does anyone have suggestions for a mox-less build to improve problematic matchups like goblins and zoo? would be more spotremoval the way to go against goblins, or should the extra diabolic edicts from the sideboard be enough to seal the deal, or should i use more targeted removal?

my problems against zoo are probably because i lack the real duals and am using the shocklands, but i am trying to hit myself as few times as possible..... either way, got to get the real ones

[sdematt]

I don't find Edicts super-stellar past turn 3 against Goblins, since they'll just sac some useless dude they don't need, like a token or a used Matron. Firespout would be super-sweet tech, I have to admit, even though it's so unstable.

But, I think Ghastly could be good, or Path as well. Only problem with Path is you're giving the tempo deck...well...tempo in terms of lands drops.

EE could also work, albeit slowly. Obviously the key play is to just play Elish Norn and profit, but I'm not sure about step 2.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Path gives them a land, but that's probably better than eating 9 points of a hasty Piledriver that you didn't see coming. Also, Path matters in other matchups whereas Ghastly Demise is cold against Tombstalker and Dark Confidant, two creatures that are seeing a resurgence in play.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

You could be like the many Team America decks running Go for the Throat... though that card is really bad due to a deck calld affinity. I've always been an advocate of Ghastly Demise though Arsenal has a good point. So many people are now playing Tombstalker and Dark Confidant again, it may be best to run with Path to Exile though I don't really like the card. Personally I'm a fan of engineered plague and tariff. Tariff gets tombstalker and helps agains show and tell and NO decks.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

There's always Snuff Out, too. Its primary disadvantage is also its primary advantage--if you're running Confidant, however, it probably won't work out.

[f|i[p]]

@Aggro steve


The problem of rock with zoo is the sheer speed then the versatility of burn... if your using shock lands.. the worse the match up is going to get.... Match up is already slightly in zoo\s favor because of burn... And if you use shocklands.. its just going to get worse...

I would recommend more spot removal however... Whats important for us is that we avoid all those early damage so that we can live through the burn later on....

[AggroSteve]

then my question would be what would be the best thing to cut?, probalbly the utility darkblast, but what else?,.... or should i just cut the krosan grips in the sideboard? for path or go for the throat?
i would probably take path over go for the throat because there are a few affinity players here

@ f|i[p]

how would you suggest as boardplan against zoo with my sideboard (last post from previous page, but with path to exile instead of krosan grip), but specially considering the shockland think

would leyline of sanctity be a nice thing against zoo, or would it be just blown a way by quasali?

[sdematt]

Leyline of Sanctity fucks Zoo's shit up, if you don't mine my saying. They won't always have Qasali, plus it means they won't Qasali something else, like Deed or attack with Qasali.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

did not yet think it that way, intresting, kinda think i have to get a playset and test,... specially cause it helps allmost the same matchups teeg would help against and some problematic ones like burn, and as you say zoo as well...

now i was just wondering what you would board out for the leylines, and would you mulligan aggressively to get them against zoo?, or are they something like "haha, you can't hit me anymore" on turn 4, if not allready to late?

btw. i do not mind your saying at all^^, i think as long as it is completely honest anyone should spell their freaking first thoughts on every matter^^

[Wilkin]

Leyline of Sanctity fucks Zoo's shit up, if you don't mine my saying. They won't always have Qasali, plus it means they won't Qasali something else, like Deed or attack with Qasali.

-Matt

I don't know. Sure they can't bolt or fireblast your face but they should have plenty of creatures to hit you with. And they can save that removal for your creatures.

[JonBarber]

Leyline of Sanctity fucks Zoo's shit up, if you don't mine my saying. They won't always have Qasali, plus it means they won't Qasali something else, like Deed or attack with Qasali.

-Matt

Typically zoo is boarding out some of their burn for more removal, which is the bigger issue. Leyline is really only good vs fireblast. The issue with the matchup is that they put pressure on much faster than you, they always win the goyf war, and all of their removal goes straight for knight. Leyline fixes non of these issues. Jitte is a much better board option for the zoo matchup because it allows you to deal with their steppe lynxs and lavamncers easily, allows you to win goyf wars, and the life gain can dramatically slow them down. Jitte also helps shore up the goblins matchup which can be shaky at times.

[sdematt]

I'm not saying Leyline has the same value against Zoo as it does Burn, but having the ability to at least not take it all to the face can help.

What "more removal" are they bringing in? Maybe it's just my local Zoo players aren't playing really traditional builds, but there's not much to bring in regarding their cases. Jitte is better, I agree, but it's still not great. They can still remove all your guys without putting Jitte to good use.

The Goblins matchup is helped by Jitte, but again, it's slow. I had Jitte online in a Goblins game and it went well until I got Warren Weirding'd and Perished out of the game. That wasn't so hot.

The games I've won with Rock against Zoo usually involve me blowing up their hand, removing their creatures, and then trying to keep large creatures on board without dying to Price of Progress or Paths. It's not as easy as can be. Also, Having Confidant bolted really sucks. Let's put it this way: I don't like seeing Zoo or Goblins.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

since the goblin and zoo matchups are the most discussed on the previous pages, i am suggesting to keep it up, but maybe we should talk about options, or point out a list of cards that have been tested with success against both archetypes......

engineered plague obviosly is the best option against goblins, but it is completely cold to zoo, thus i do not want to spend 3-4 sideboard slots to it

the problem with jitte has allready been stated, and even if jitte is good, both deck we have problems with, have enough ways to deny a creature connecting with it

other options that have been pointed out were addictional targeted removal, but most of the time.... specially against goblins that won't be enough

the thing is that none of these 3 things help enough in these two matchups to assure victory over them.... so my question would be if anyone knows some techs to make zoo and goblins fail to our deck

practically i would also want to know how you people are doing to beat them consistently (if you do)

i for my part am trying darkblast and doran again, and hoping them to show some good results, .... on paper it should help the goblin matchup significantly, but i have barely any time to test right now since i have a lot to do for university at the moment (and that wont probably change for the next 2 months... doh)

[Arsenal]

Burrenton Forge-tender perhaps? A pretty decent card to keep Lackey/Piledriver at bay, can be sacced in response to a Warren Weirding to delay a hit from Lackey, etc. Has utility versus Burn.

Against, Zoo, it will probably suck. That's the problem, there's no "catch-all" answer that we can play that will help versus both decks. Dueling Grounds is the closest thing I suppose, but even then, that doesn't guarantee anything.

[AggroSteve]

true i forgot about dueling grounds, but still zoo wins the goyfwars, which sucks, in in lists without mox it even could be to slow against goblins

burrenton forge-tender is really sweet against goblins, stops early lackeys and saves your bigger dudes from being burned with incinerators, and sacs to warren wierding (at least once, hence if opponent has recurring wierdings it will suck again), plus forge tender would only be a viable choice if we would run equip as well... so for the stoneforge lists he might be a not so bad option against both deck i think, but he would definitely be only a metachoice i think

[Arsenal]

For the E Tutor guys (like myself), I suppose CoP: Red could be viable... seems janky though.

[deezy]

rape theyre hand and extirpate theyre paths / swords....this matchup is tough but heres the thing I dont v=care what you do you are gonna have a tough matchup you just have to pick your poison...Ive had some success with damnation outta the board though.....Some builds run up to 6 to 8 swords or paths and thats the problem...Ive heard the kitchen finks is good too....

[sdematt]

If you run 3 Finks out of the Board instead of, say, another card, you'd do much better.

-Matt

[brianw712]

I think the best card against both Zoo and Goblins is Firespout. Sure, the manabase would have to be adjusted a little bit (Moxes makes this a little easier), but it would be totally unexpected, and it doesn't affect your own creatures. It's also really good against other decks like Elves, Affinity that have been seeing more play.

[RexFTW]

Burrenton Forge-tender is INSANE. Seems like not a big deal, but it is. Test it.

[Arsenal]

Insane versus Goblins, but against Zoo? I mean, they really only have burn spells as their Red sources of damage, and in G2 and G3 (when Burrenton Forge-tender is active), they board in things like Jitte, Path, etc... not more Red sources of damage (if anything, I'd presume they take their burn out for Jitte, etc).

[RexFTW]

my problems against zoo are probably because i lack the real duals and am using the shocklands, but i am trying to hit myself as few times as possible..... either way, got to get the real ones

my suggestion:
get 1 of each dual, then play the mirroden lands that come into play tapped if you have 4 or more lands. This is better than playing shock lands and inexpensive. This would give you 3 lands your knights cannot utilize, but should give you untapped lands for the first few turns without taking damage.

[Arsenal]

Problem is that Scars of Mirrodin duals are only friendly-colored. So while you'd have a Green/White dual at your disposal (which we already have in Horizon Canopy), you would not have a Black/White or Black/Green. Considering that black mana in the early game is crucial to our gameplan (Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach), I don't agree that the Scars of Mirrodin duals are the way to go. I'd probably just go to 9 fetches and run more basic lands before playing stuff like Scars of Mirrodin duals.

[RexFTW]

Arsenal is right, my bad.

[Arsenal]

I mean, if you're playing 3 color, the ABUR dual lands are pretty much required. 2 color decks can get away with not running duals because of fetches + basics (although even then it's suboptimal), but 3 color decks? You really, really need true duals. This deck already takes a bunch of self-inflicted damage (Thoughtseize, Confidant, Horizon Canopy) that any additional self-inflicted damage will tip the scales in your opponent's favor.

[Nelis]

Hi guys, Ive been wanting to play The Rock for ages but never really felt comfortable with the deck type (the thin line between playing it as aggro and control) until the printing of Green Sun's Zenith. I am an aggro player so I like to play as many creatures as possible and I like the Zenith for that and because it enables a creature toolbox. Below is the list I've come up with and I'm quite happy with it. I'd mainly like your thoughts on my sideboard but if you have any comments on the main deck they're welcome too. A few exceptions: I dont like Mox Diamond in this deck, and I'm not too keen on running more copies of TOP although I might consider running a 2nd copy if you can convince me its really necessary :-) Ill get into my metagame after the decklist.

//Lands 23
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou

// creatures 19
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

// spells 18
1 Elpeth, Knight Errant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Inquisition of Krozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

Our metagame is usually an aggro/control metagame but once in a while combo shows up but regulars usually play non-combo. This was the top 8 of last time:

1. UGR Feries (but runs more goyfs than faeries)
2. Counterthopter
3. Belcher
4. Affinity (tezzeret/master of etherium version)
5. Charbelcher pact SI (Tendrills/charbelcher combo)
6. Pox
7. Affinity (aggro signalpest version)
8. white weenie (Heavy Equipment/Etched Champion version)

For decklists see: (dutch site) http://magicgroningen.editboard.com/t2057p15-legacy-zondag-13-maart-2011-oude-drogisterij

Some more info on our metagame: I'm usually the only one who plays Zoo. I also play Goblins but that deck is sometimes played by others as well. Decks that almost always show up are Affinity and Pox. And I always expect a few blue based decks.

I was thinking of putting 2 Enlightened Tutors in the sideboard that can fetch at least one copy of Null Rod and one copy of Pernicious Deed. I'd also like to put in a Cold-Eyed Selkie and a Harmonic Sliver. The rest is up for debate. Just one more thing: I don't own a Karakas (but I dont think its really necessary in my metagame) and I only own one Null Rod. I own most other possible sideboard cards like Extirpate, Plague, Gaddock Teeg and such.

So, it's very appreciated if you could help me with my sideboard. Thanx.

[Dzra]

Just to check back in, I've tested a fair amount with the Vial Mystic version of the deck that I posted several pages back. The final list I settled on was basically BW Tempo with a Green splash just for Goyf. It wasn't bad at all, but I don't feel like it's the right deck for the meta. Essentially, it's mana was somewhat unstable and I just didn't care for the playstyle as well. If anyone is interested in a list, just message me.

So, I've come back to the more traditional build except I'm looking for more room for hand disruption. I have the 4 Hymns, 4 Thoughtseize, and I'll be adding 2 Gerrard's Verdicts and 2-3 Inquisitions. I know that's more hand disruption than a lot of you like, but based on how my games usually pan out, I'll be giving it a try.

A couple questions. Singleton Eternal Witness VS singleton Maelstrom Pulse. Both are CA. Witness is usually a much stronger source of quality and CA than Pulse, however, Pulse comes down sooner (than the card that you'd retrieve). Next, classic Stronghold Mox Diamond VS FTV Mox Diamond. I have a very soft spot for foils, but I can't decide which is the pimper: foil or old school? ;P

I'll most the results once I get more testing in.

[AggroSteve]

i would allways go with oldschool, i just hate the other artwork

[Derm]

[4] Dark Confidant
[4] Tarmogoyf
[4] Knight of the Reliquary
[2] Terravore

[4] Thoughtseize
[1] Inquisition of Kozilek
[4] Hymn to Tourach

[4] Swords to Plowshares
[4] Vindicate
[2] Engineered Explosives

[3] Sensei's Divining Top

[4] Bayou
[4] Scrubland
[1] Savannah
[1] Swamp
[2] Horizon Canopy
[4] Wasteland
[4] Verdant Catacombs
[4] Marsh Flats

Sideboard:

[2] Condemn
[2] Go for the Throat
[2] Nihil Spellbomb
[1] Bojula Bog
[3] Gaddock Teeg
[2] Consuming Vapors
[2] Krosan Grip
[1] Engineered Explosives

[Arsenal]

Been thinking of running 2 EE over 2 Deed as well. Deed is great as a mid-late game card if you need to reset the board, but early game against Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo, EE @ 1 or 2 is a turn faster, and that generally makes all the difference versus those decks. Plus, EE's cmc is 0, so that helps with Confidant triggers too.

[RexFTW]

This may be useful for the original guide. The deck generally breaks down like this:

8 Fat creatures
10 discard spells
8 removal spells
7 "topdeck mode" spells (ie Sensei's top, Dark Confiant, equipment)
4 "tempo" slots (mox diamond or 1 cc spells or sweepers)
23 lands

60 cards

number of sideboard cards you need for each matchup to remove bad cards:
Aggro: 2-4 (remove some discard)
Storm Combo: 4 if playing removal that is good vs them (ie vindicate), 8 if siding out all removal.
Graveyard decks: 4-8 sorcery removal and topdecek mode cards can come out
Control: none
natural order: 3-4 answers must come in or you will have trouble

Notice that adds up to more than 15 cards. You will need to find some cards that are good in more than one matchup. IE extirpate is good vs combo and graveyard, diabolic edict is good vs tribal and progenitus.

[sdematt]

Old Mox Diamond is far more pimp, since you can always go with German, Japanese, or even Korean if your pocketbook can handle it. Promo foil is kinda sad due to crappy picture and high availability.

-Matt

[Derm]

I'd like to talk about options for the sideboard. What really beats combo? I'm pretty unimpressed with Extirpate, even though that's the catch-all Dredge/Combo answer that people have been using. LSV made some pretty pointed comments about that strategy here: http://www.channelfireball.com/video-archive/magic-tv-show-85-gp%E2%80%94dfw-jace-and-more (http://www.channelfireball.com/video-archive/magic-tv-show-85-gp%E2%80%94dfw-jace-and-more/)/

I sort of agree with him. The plan of Thoughtseize your key card, then Extirpate it is pretty slow, somewhat reactive, and weak all around. I have Gaddock Teeg in my board against combo and Nihil Spellbomb/Bojuka Bog against Dredge and other graveyard strategies.

[2] Condemn
[2] Go for the Throat
[2] Nihil Spellbomb
[1] Bojuka Bog
[3] Gaddock Teeg
[2] Consuming Vapors
[2] Krosan Grip
[1] Engineered Explosives

I'm not sure I need the Krosan Grips, though I liked having them vs. Countertop strategies because all of my spells fit in the 3cmc or lower soft lock. Do I need more nontargeted removal? Currently I'm leaning on Consuming Vapors as an answer to Progenitus. I really dislike Tariff, but maybe there's no better option. Also, what helps in combo matchups? Something other than Extirpate.

[Arsenal]

CounterTop has been pushed out of the meta due to Vial decks... which we also have a rough time against coincidentally. I dislike Bojuka Bog in general. Sure, it's cute when you can KotR it into play at a crucial moment, but often times, I'm either dead by then or they're dead by then (you got to untap with KotR... you're doing pretty well).

I've always been an advocate of the E Tutor SB. I typically run 4 Leylines (Santicity or Void, depending on what I think will be played), 3 E Tutor, then 8 artifact/enchantments; 2 Plague, 1 Dueling Grounds, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 EE, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Serenity, etc.

[sdematt]

The key to beating combo is disruption + clock. If you can Thoughtseize and Hymn away key cards while having another speedbump (hate-bear) before they can go off with a clock, you've won.

Ideally, I'd love to run 10 discard main, and then additional Teeg/Cannonist in the board, but there's only 15 slots to work with, and other matchups might be more prevalent, depending on your meta.

In the main, you could run: 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Inquisition of Kozilek.

In the board, you could run 3 Gaddock Teeg and 3 Extirpate, or if you're feeling really hateful, a set of Leyline of Sanctity. Teegs will slow them down considerably, and Extirpate keeps them off of the safety of IGGY loop (which allows them to build 3-4 Storm without losing life, which is key when you're apply pressure and they can't Ad Nauseum). Engineered Explosives or Deed (but moreso the former) shuts off the Empty the Warrens route entirely, forcing them into a plan that may not get them there. This is key.

When I'm playing Dreadstill against them, it's true I have counters, but by forcing them into the Tendrils plan, they can't wimp out and just get 5 Storm and kill me eventually, they have to go all the way.

Sometimes, they'll just get you, and that's the way it goes, but you can improve your odds.

What I'm really looking for is the meta to slow down by a turn, that's all. Let my Landstill deck becomes playable again, and make this deck infinitely better :P

@ Deed vs. EE

I'm curious as to why you'd want to do this. I understand it's better in some ways because you're not blowing up your own crap, but with the rising cost of the format, you'll encounter more Affinity and random decks that absolutely fold to Deed. I'd most definitely keep at least 2 between the main and side. Maybe 2 EE main and 2 Deed side?

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I've been finding Deed, especially on the draw, to be 1-2 turns too slow versus Goblins and Merfolk... two of the most problematic matchups for us. Deed is better versus slower, more random stuff, but EE just seems to be better versus the tuned aggro Vial decks.

[2Rach]

Sure, it's cute when you can KotR it into play at a crucial moment, but often times, I'm either dead by then or they're dead by then (you got to untap with KotR... you're doing pretty well)
This oversimplifies greatly and in my experience is untrue.

Keep one Bog in the 75. It's just wrong not to have one with four Knights in the deck. You don't die by turn four against any deck you'd want it against as long as long as they don't get very lucky and you're disrupting them in some way. On a scale of 1-10 Bog is about a 5 and Nihil Spellbomb is an 8. Having a virtual extra four grave hate in the form of Knight (and effectively making it instant) pushes it into viability.


I have Gaddock Teeg in my board against combo and Nihil Spellbomb/Bojuka Bog against Dredge and other graveyard strategies.
Keep in mind Teeg is also good against Dredge. It stops Dread Return from being played and sometimes can stop a Breakthrough.


This is my anti-combo package currently:
4 Duress
2 Teeg
X whatever mass kills goblin tokens
(9 discard 2 Deeds main, Mox build)


ET sounds really good the more I think about it. It lets me fit in the one Engineered Plague, gives redundancy, all while making room for other stuff. I'll try and test something like this sideboard in the future:
4x Duress / -1+1 Teeg
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Perish
1x Elspeth, Knight-errant
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Engineered Plague
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Path to Exile / Diabolic Edict
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog

[Arsenal]

I think it really depends. Like I said, my board looks like 4 Leyline (Void or Sanctity depending on my mood), then my E Tutor targets will adjust. If I'm running Leyline of the Void, I won't have Tormod's Crypt, Spellbomb, Bojuka Bog, etc in there as targets.

I've played with 1-of Bog and never really liked it. Like I said, there were times it was a BLOWOUT, but more often than not, I wish that I had a Crypt/Spellbomb I could've tutored on turn 1 as opposed to a turn 4 tutor with KotR. I suppose if you're not running E Tutor, then you may find KotR -> Bog to be great, but for me, I'd much rather E Tutor for Crypt/Nihil early game.

RE: Deed being good versus Affinity, I run Serenity as a 1-of in my SB as an E Tutor target against Affinity/Enchantress/Thopters/etc, so that is sorta pushing me towards EE as EE shores up, ever so slightly, our Gobbos and Merfolk g1 matchups.

[RexFTW]

I've been finding Deed, especially on the draw, to be 1-2 turns too slow versus Goblins and Merfolk... two of the most problematic matchups for us. Deed is better versus slower, more random stuff, but EE just seems to be better versus the tuned aggro Vial decks.

are you playing mox diamond? I find deed to be insane vs 'folk.

[sdematt]

Deed is better against Folk than Goblins, because Goblins just regenerates their hand like a champ. with Folk having no card advantage (no "ringleader" effect), I like Deed here. Gobbos, not so much.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

I do not run Mox Diamond. Perhaps that's why I'm finding Deed to be a bit too slow. I really, really dislike the inconsistency of Mox Diamond as you tend to keep greedy hands, activating Deed w/ Diamond on board = bleh, and it's 100% dead mid-late game when I'd rather be topdecking ANYTHING else (I'd even want to topdeck a fetchland as a fetchland will add value to my Top, make a KotR bigger, etc).

[sdematt]

Agreed. Moxen MAY be great, but are definitely wildly inconsistent. If the deck was set up properly for a 4 Mox Diamond build, it'd be fine, but it's not. Cutting another 3 slots to fit the 2 lands and 1 Mox Diamond seems terrible. It was terrible with Aggro Loam in a way (it was always dicey), and it's not so great now.

I'm just fine with going turn 1 Discard into turn 2 anything. But, I will agree it helps against Wasteland and Port, but at that point, you're usually dead on board anyway (1 Mox Diamond isn't going to turn a situation of Wastelock or 2-4 Ports online into a winning situation).

-Matt

[ZeinVoncy]

So just got back from a small tourney here, I went 2-2 drop out of a 5 Rnd Swiss.

List:
Creatures: 13
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Phyrexian Negator
2x Knight of the Reliquary

Sorcery: 13
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Vindicate

Instant: 3
3x Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers: 1
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Enchantment: 2
2x Pernicious Deed

Artifact: 6
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Diamond

Lands: 22
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Maze of Ith

Sideboard: 15
3x Pithing Needle
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Krosan Grip

I know, wtf Phyrexian Negator? Honestly, he was a hit for me today. In the world of control and combo, true aggro is not much of a force lately. Bold, I know, but I went into a tournament meta-game that was unknown. I felt he would be good either way, could S/B out vs Goblins, Zoo and Red Burn. We need to put a clock on some of our opponents while we try to slow them down, he fills this role. With Moxen, it's possible for us to take a hit w/ Negator, sac all lands and feed your Knight. I feel he deserves a spot back at this time.

5 rounds, I dropped after 4th.
Rnd 1: Mike - Bant-NOPro
0-2
I just lost bad both rounds. I wasn't able to establish any control and lacked discard. First game I was able to Waste him 3 turns in a row, leaving me G/W in play. I proceed draw nothing of use. 2 of my Dark Confidants were STPed away. He was able to recover and establish control.
0-1
I forgot what I S/B for this match.
The second game I started with Thoughtseize which showed me (2x Swords to Plowshares, 1x Submerge, 1 Fetch, 1x Tropical Island, 1x Brainstorm, 1x other). Needless to say, I didn't draw a second black land source as he proceeded to remove any creature I played and I straightout lost.

Rnd 2: Bye
No notes here
1-1

Rnd 3: Jerry - Affinity
2-0

He won the draw, played first and proceeded to go "Seat of the Synod, Mox Opal, Ornithopter, Memnite, Arcbound Ravenger, go." O.o I dropped Flats and passed. He drew, played Great Furnace and another Arcbound Ravenger. LoL, this is where he played bad. He swung with Memnite and Ravenger. I fetch for a Scrubland, StP his Ravenger. He sacs all but land to give his Memnite +4/+4 from his second Ravenger. I take the 5 as he gains 2 for his StP'd Ravenger. My turn, draw, play a land, pass. He draws, swings for 5.
I go to 9 and draw for my turn. Land, Pulse, Pass. He draws and plays another Opal, pass. I drop Negator and go to town.
1-0
S/B +3x Pridemages, 2x Krosan Grip, -3 Negator, -1 Elspeth, -1 other (forget)
He drops a land and Opal, passes, I draw discard, wasteland, and establish full control over the game, even getting around to Deed'ing for 3 to end it.
2-0

2-1 record, still in it. My first rnd opponent was 3-0, good signs.
Rnd 4: Paul - Bant - NOPro
First was a close one, I almost beat him out but totally messed up on a play where I had a Nagator on the field, 2x Waste and a Scrubland, he had 2x Trop. Island and Noble Heirarch. So I am totally oblivious to where had 1 Trop untapped and I proceeded to StP his Hierarch which meets Spell Pierce. FAIL! Then after it dawns on me, I take out both his Trops with my Wastes and swung for 5. He recovers with a land and goyf. I draw, drop a goyf myself, hold back on Negator b/c goyf were 4/5s. He drops another land, Jitte and equips his gofy with it. From there I just don't see any more removal and he takes my goyf with Sower of Temptation. GG

S/B stuff for other stuff
I make a bad judgement call of keeping a 1 land hand with Top. I drop a top and pass. Go, I spin the top, getting 1 more top and crap. Pass . . . draw spin for Mox and Land, take the land and see nothing else to help as I never got into the game.

2-2

My chances are shot, figured I'd bail and go eat, moving on with rather distasteful results.

I went to the tournament still unsure if I should play Combo-Elves, Zoo or Junk and went into the unknown meta. I figured I'd pan out better with the meta-predator and go Junk.
There were 27 players, saw some Dredge, ANT, Bant, Combo-Elves, Burn, Merfolk, and Zoo. I was the only rock to my knowledge. Bant was the most played deck from what I saw.

Sorry I was not more detailed, first tournament in a LONG time.

[tgDC$]

Finished 5th at a 53 man in Los Angeles. I walk away with 2 jaces for my troubles. Heres a quick report

List
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip

Round 1 Mark playing Bant w/ Green sun (2-1 win)
G1: His early wasteland sets me back on mana and I stumble on lands while struggling to keep up with his board presence. After staring at his 2x goyfs and knight, I scoop when he forces my goyf
G2: I am able to thoughtseize and hymn his early action while my goyfs and knight go to town and he can't keep up
G3: Very close game and back and forth the whole way. His board is once again 2x goyfs to my empty board with just a sword of fire/ice. I resolve a goyf while he matches with a knight. I rip my own knight and resolve it. THe turning point here is when I swing in with my equipped goyf and he double blocks with 1 goyf and a knight. I show him swords for the blowout and I slowly creep back and take the match

Round 2 Peter playing MonoBlue Merfolk (0-2 loss)
G1: I decide to not play around daze and get crushed for it, he dazes my turn 2 goyf and turn 3 knight. I have little else going on as I am struggling to find land while he continues to drop lord after lord. He makes quick work of my life total
G2: His double wasteland has me yet again struggling to find mana sources, while his 2 vials slowly tick up to start vomitting out dudes. His board is double reejerey, adept, cursecatcher. I try to pulse his reejerey which meets a fow in his end and thats all she wrote

Round 3 Kevin playing Next Level Thresh (2-1 win)
G1: His stifles keep me off mana for a couple turns but I am able to resolve a knight turn 5. He goes jace, bounce knight, and basilisk collar to compliment his Lavamancer he played earlier. I fail to find a swords to deal with it and I can't deal with jace's card advantage
G2: I am able to thoughtseize and hymn his good stuff and a simple goyf goes to work on his life total
G3: We play draw go early on and I keep playing lands. My hand starts to get stacked so I test the waters. Some of my creatures get countered, but he doesn't have enough answers when I eventually resolve a goyf and a Knight. I proceed to waste him out of the game. There was a point where he tried to sower my knight and I knight'd up a sejiri steppe which needless to say he was surprised by

Round 4 Chase playing Rb Goblins (2-0 win)
G1: He is on the play and mulligans. He opens on lackey so I play a thoughtseize on my T1 to see what hes got. 2 Matrons, 1 Lackey, 2 Land. I take a matron and pass. He connects with lackey, drops a matron searches for piledriver and plays it. I play stoneforge for a jitte and pass. He gets in for quite a bit of dmg as I dont have swords, but the jitte eventually takes over the game and he can't deal
G2: He has no vial or lackey turn 1, where I have a turn 1 top and top into Bob and double plague. He has no answer for the enchantments and the game was over

Round 5 Alex playing BUG Control (2-0 win)
*Alex is my teammate and it sucks we have to play eachother. We both know drawing here is bad for both of us so we have to play it out. An important note here is that Alex decided to cut all his standstills for tops for this tournament, but when we tested this matchup, standstill really put this match in his favor
G1: Hes on the play and just lays a land and passes. I thoughtseize him to see counterspell, force, lands. I take the counterspell. I try for bob on turn 2 which resolves, but he ripped an innocent blood in those 2 turns to handle it. My hymns keep him off good stuff for a bit. I knew he had a force in hand so I tried Elspeth. He forced it removing a jace but didn't seem very happy. It was probably his only action, so my follow up of goyf and Knight were too much for him to deal with
G2: Again I thoughtseize and see slow hand and take his jace. I resolve a stoneforge for sword of f/f soon after which starts to peck away at his life total and his hand. He tries to race me with his 2 factories but I have no wastelands in site. I rip back to back vindicates to deal with it and now he needs to answer my board pressure. He doesn't find anything and I wrap it up

Round 6 Liam Kane playing T.E.S (2-0 win)
*My hearts sinks when I find out I get paired against Liam last round. This is the same Liam that just top4d the SCG LA open. I ask if hed like to draw because I for sure sneak in with a draw here. However his breakers aren't good enough and he might finish 9th or 10th if he draws, thus we need to play it out
G1: He's on the play =/ but I open on hymn, hymn, scrubland, waste, bob, mox diamond, pulse. If I dont die turn 1 I hope my hymns disrupt him enough. I am soon greeted by a turn 1 Empty the warrens for 12. I didn't freak because I have the pulse in my hand but I need to rip a land to play it on turn 2. I draw for turn (knight) *crap*, play scrubland and pass. He bashes for 12 and says go. I knock my deck and use up my "one time" for the day and I draw wasteland! I play my first wasteland, mox diamond and pitch the second and play pulse on his guys. My hymns then keep him off cards for a comeback and my goyfs finish off the job
G2: Started off alot better for me when he just ponders on turn 1. I thoughtseize him to see a bunch of mana spells and I take his LED. I follow it up with hymn to nab more mana spells. He then has a small empty the warrens for 6. I resolve a goyf and chump for a bit and it gets to a point where he needs to start chumping my goyfs and knights to not die. I extirpate him to make sure theres no upset here and he scoops it up.

Phew, that was nerve wracking but I finish the swiss 5-1 and I'm the 2nd seed in the top8. The rest of the top 8 was Mono Blue Merfolk (my 2nd round opponent), URW Burn, Rock w/o stoneforge (played by Shai Shaham who top4d the SCG Open in San Jose), White weenie tempo, Epic Storm piloted by someone else, Elves Combo, and BUG Control.

Quarter Finals Pierre playing URW Burn (1-2 loss)
Pierre is a great guy, very friendly and courteous. This is his first legacy tournament.
G1: He doesn't have much action as I get a quick stoneforge for jitte which accompanies the sword of f/i I had. He scoops soon after
G2 and G3: He does what burn decks do and just goes to town. I wasn't able to find the jitte or the discard effects fast enough and I lose in a quick manner

I end up in 5th place and walk away with 2 Jaces. I am still pretty excited to still get jaces at 5th place. All in all, this is the first time I've sleeved up rock for a legacy event, and I think I will continue to do so. Thanks for reading

[sdematt]

Glad to see you enjoyed it!

Interesting list. How'd you find Mox Diamonds?

Glad to see a victory versus Goblins, I guess they can't always quad wasteland their opponents :P

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i would be interested in the rock-build without the stoneforge mystics, does anyone have the list? i just want to see if it is a completely standard list with moxen or if there are some nice tricks in it

[Derm]

Finished 5th at a 53 man in Los Angeles.

DUDE! Where did this tournament happen? I moved to LA pretty recently and I have been DYING to find a good card shop with some people who actually know what they're doing. Plus, I want some consistent tournament action. Searching around for tournaments and shops on the internet has turned up next to nothing for me. Seriously, the first LA card shop that figures out how to make themselves Googleable is going to make a killing.

Also, congrats on the finish.

[Erdvermampfa]

Indeed, very interesting list. Stoneforge Mystic serves the deck another option to abuse the Mox on turn one and the fetchable Jitte might improve our painful matchup against goblins yet in game one even though I'd like to see the Sword of Fire and Ice being a Sword of Light and Shadow as we run no flying creatures and protection W is balls in legacy, the additional lifegain isn't that bad too, especially in this deck. It also provides you an opportunity to reccur against those controldecks with a massive amount of sweepers and counters which is very useful as the deck's threat density is rather low. Sure, SoFaI will also wreck goblins if you can achieve some hits with it, but jitte is does that too and can negate our massive lifeloss. If you replaced the sofi with solas, stoneforge mystic would become a reliable answer to 2 matchups which you encounter fairly often in these days in my opinion ( Aggro falls to Jitte, Control (landstill, cb, random B-pile to solas ).

Besides, I think that the deck's need of cardquality isn't saturated with 2 Tops. This version of Rock gets into the topdeck stage very quickly as you run a massive pile of discard and Mox Diamond. actually, I have even added the 4th to prevent these situations in which you have to rely on luck and you have got a great number of cards which optimize the use of top ( 8 fetchlands, 4 knights ).

[tgDC$]

@sdematt- I did like the small tempo gain that mox diamond gave. I didn't mention in my report but couple times I had an unanswered turn 1 bob or turn 1 top plus an eot spin. I think I will continue to go with a build that uses mox diamonds

@Aggrosteve: Shai Shaham top8d the same tournament using a rock list without stoneforge, the list he used was the following. He went 4-0 in the swiss and drew the last 2 rounds for top8. He is a very solid player and consistently top8s tournaments here in LA. He proceeded to lose to white weenie in the quarters I believe.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Mox Diamond
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Path to Exile
qty: 60

Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Perish
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Diabolic Edict

@Derm- The shop that hosted this is called Knightware. They are pretty much the best shop here in LA for legacy events. Lori (the owner) always posts up her tournaments in the tournament announcement section so just keep an eye out. Another new shop that has hosted a couple successful events is Melrose Music and Comics who posts their tournaments there as well.

[sdematt]

I've been trying to get ahold of Lori forever to give me feedback for MOTL, but she hasn't replied yet :P

-Matt

[f|i[p]]

I don't have a lot of free time to test, but if there is someone who has tons of time and really tests the deck....

I am currently still trying to figure out.. the advantages and disadvantages of mox....

So far if the meta is slower than usual, I do not see the need for moxen...
Moxen also smoothes out the mana which smooths out the deck ...

Ive been playing against zoo, and still have the same match up.. However if I am using non moxen, I dont go for deed as much since I find it slow with no moxen...

How ever if there is anyone who can really test moxen builds against non moxen builds... If you can supply ample data on which match ups moxen builds would have an advantage over non moxen builds.
I would greatly appreciate some hard(real) data on match ups and which match ups that moxen actually help...

[sdematt]

I think the real way to test is this: run cards in the Moxen's place (run them as flex slots). See how many times you'd rather it be, say, Path to Exile or a Moxen. Run your gauntlet and grind a few hundred games.

Once my exams are over, I plan to do just that, again.

-Matt

[2Rach]

He proceeded to lose to death and taxes in the quarters I believe.
More White Weenie than Death and Taxes. No Mangara/Wisp/Karakas tricks. Same guy that made top 16 at SCG Los Angeles.

First game I made a misplay that cost me three life(and saved him a ton). I had three mana open with Deed on the board, he had 2 creatures and an ORing with my Knight. I forget about the Oring so I spin the top instead of just cracking Deed for three, losing 3 life and a lot of tempo from not getting my Knight/using next turn to Deed. After a while of a lot of back and forth, he finishes me off with four Hawks before I can get my one STP left to remove my Knight.

Second game he mulled to six showing STP/Path/needle/lands off a TS. I take Needle and he topdecks a Weathered Wayfarer. I try to slowroll my lands while he gets wastes, and I don't draw other lands to make up for the ones I lose staying on Swamp/Plains when Deed for one would have wiped him off the board. He slowly kills me with 1/1s while a Maze slows him down. I draw 4 STPS and 1-2 Paths and every other card imaginable other than a green land. I sideboarded out my Moxes ironically, I wasn't going to but at last second I switched the Moxes out instead of other stuff. Lawl. This is why you run Moxes people. And don't misplay...


EDIT:
I find it funny that any other card from my opponent beside a Wayfarer and the game would have been completely different. Never seen a Wayfarer do so much.

[sdematt]

What do you guys think about Mental Misstep? Not necessarily to play, but to play against?

-Matt

[ivanpei]

I won't really worry about it, as it does not effect us much. Combo protected by misstep may be a problem though, as it can take apart our thoughtseizes/ tops as we scramble to find disruption. Zoo with misstep can easily blow past out late game CA. T1 steppe/necatl protected by misstep? Scary!

[AggroSteve]

mental misstep is indeed a scary card to play against, specially in combo decks... i did not think of zoo though, but more of team america probably using it

[C Rayz Walz]

I don't think decks like zoo and goblins can play it as due to the fact that their deck is pretty tight. I think tempo decks like thresh and team america will skeet all over that card as control players well too. The card is amazing but I don't think the card will affect rock that much. I am looking forward to see how that card changes t he format.

[sdematt]

I'm honestly not looking forward to seeing this card. Another free counterspell? Ugh.

However, I wouldn't mind using it to stop a T1 Lackey/Nacatl...

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i was just reading in other threads as i realized that maybe that card will allow countertop to become stronger again, since their mainproblem vial could be solved by mental misstep, actually i am thinking of adding mental misstep in my countertop thopter list (deck is mainly for fun.... ROCK is my only real pet-deck^^)

i believe for us marrow shards could be quite a nice card against goblins as well against empty the warrens tokens.... at least i find the card to be one of the few cards of the new set we can use

[mdc1010]

I played in our GPT today for RI. I spent the last week preparing and tweaking my Junk deck. I finished in 2nd and never lost a game. I am beyond excited. I conceded to my opponent in the finals as he had plans to go to the GP already, and it was doubtful that I could go. We still played out for fun and I won 2-0. Below is the updated deck list which I doubt I will change and a updated sideboard. I'll do a mini write up as well for the rounds I sorta of remember.

Deck.
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Volarth's Stronghold (amazing!)
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte (amazing!)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Perish
1 Pernicious Deed

Quick few notes about my changes from my original list
I cut 1 fetch for another swamp. In testing I just felt like I needed another basic swamp. The Stronghold was simply a much better functional land verses horizon canopy. We don't run a lot of monsters and being able to recur them is so freaking nice. It also makes having the 2 main deck Jittes worth a lot more value over the game. I was very disappointed with the main Gerrad Verdicts so thats what I cut for the Jittes, and I do not regret it at all. I also cut 1 Vindicate for an additional Deed in the main as it presented me more outs in a variety of different situations.

On the sideboard I was very disappointed with extripate and edict so I took them out. With the rise in combo I put in the white leylines and due to my meta I fit in the green (elf) hate.

Write up from what I can remember:

Esper Caw Blade
This wasn't really a fair match, but the opponent was very nice. Thoughtseize, hymn, wasteland, and vindicate kept the deck off it's manabase. A bob with a jitte ate any of the 2 different critters they had.
Game 2 I went +3 duress and -2 deed, and -1 sword. Game 2 was much the same as game 1.

Burn
He started out fast getting me down to 10 quick. However I landed a 4/5 Goyf with a Jitte. Got a 2 counters on it and that quickly sealed the game. He was able to burn out the goyf even with the pump which was fine with me (keeping the heat off the dome) however I was holding a stronghold, and just brought him back to get the W and keep my life up with the Jitte.

Game 2 I went +3 Leyline, +3 Duress -3 Vindicate -2 Deed - 1 thoughtseize
He went down to 5 I think, and like a champ I had the leyline in my opening hand. That alone really sealed up the game. All I remember was like turn 3 he resigned to having no outs and scooped.

Dark Depths Combo
Game 1 we went back and forth a little with disruption. I was able to keep him off his combo pretty easily with the discard spells. At one point I was sure he had the combo and was ready to execute it on his next turn. His hand was full, and I resolved a hymn grabbing 2 dark depths. Woot! This put the game back in my favor. I finally dug into a Knight who by this point of the game was 6/6. He had 3 depths and 2 hexmages in the GY and it was looking grim that his combo would come up. I won.
Game 2 I took out -3 Vindicate -2 Jitte and + 3 Leyline + 2 duress. He had the some of the sac cards to deal damage, and way more discard spells.
He went down to 6 and I kept with a opening Leyline again. He sunk down into his chair and said he shouldn't have kept the hand now. It was 2 lands, and multiple discard spells. This game went much faster as he couldn't target me with anything to disrupt my hand, and all I had to do was basically save a swords for the end of the combo. I was able to pick out the combo pieces slowly and a large goyf got there.

Painted Stone (finals)
He was going to the GP already and I probably wasn't. I conceded but we played it out for fun and the experience. From earlier matches I knew he was almost running the stock LA list. I won the roll which was major in this game. I was able to stay 1 turn ahead of him, and my discard was able to keep him off the game. I saved my wastelands and vindicates for his manabase. Keeping him off his volcanic islands was key. I saved swords for the welder so my discard wouldn't backfire on me allowing him to change out a top for a painter or grindstone. Bob hit the board on turn 4 with a Jitte. I was able to get the Jitte to 4 counters quickly and that prompted a scoop as he could never land a painter and keep it as a result.
The side was +3 duress, +3 leyline, - 1 jitte -2 deed - 1 swords - 2 throutghseize ( i had him on the show and tell into emerkal side plan from earlier rounds), I decided to bring the leyline in just in case he kept the painted combo in as well.

Game 2 was me on draw. I was able to keep him off the combo very early on. He would have had the won turn 2 but I swords away the painter in play. He called having a grindstone on the top of his library, which was cute. He tried to protect his hand with force, but was pitching away useful spells on 2 different occasions that I thought he probably wanted to keep. I think both times it was intuition into force. About 7 turns into the game my hand was Karakas, Jitte, Swords, Marsh Flats, and Hymn. He had 6 and I don't remember what he had. I casted the Hymn and it got misdirected to my face. I thought I was going to lose, because if he was able to hit the Karakas I was in trouble. I figured he was close to show and tell. The die was nice to me and he grabbed a swords and a jitte. I finally landed a beater with Stronghold backup, and kept the Karakas in hand in case he got the show and tell off. Thankfully the combination of a goyf and stronghold won it for me.

That's what I recall from today with any good memory. I was super stoked about not dropping a single game today. I love having Stronghold over canopy any day of the week. It makes the deck much more stable, and makes jitte such a stronger play in this deck. The white leyline is just nuts as it turns off almost every combo against you, turns off decks with a strong discard suit (good in the mirror), and shuts down burn which is difficult without the jitte's already. All in all very happy, and glad I didn't stop playing Junk after my first disappointing showing a few weeks back at a SCG open.

[sdematt]

Rock's in Top 8.

-Matt

[mdc1010]

Ugh, misplayed that deed big time, should have equipped the bird and swung.

[Arsenal]

Rock player blew it with that mistimed Pernicious Deed. Take the 5 from the Commander, then pop Deed at your leisure. Major slops.

[wcm8]

He threw the game away. It wasn't even a matter of us knowing what was in Bertoncini's hand or anything, that was just such a blatant misplay. Frustrating, because I was hoping to see Rock get first for once.

Of course, I don't play perfectly after multiple hours of playing. Dude may have been tired and just didn't realize. Or didn't care (I think its pretty common for the top 4 / finalists to just split the prize, so he may not have really cared much about the outcome at this point.)

[PanderAlexander]

Rock's in Top 8.

-Matt

In the finals game 3, blow up Pernicious when he had bob and jitte on the board and his only white and black source was birds and mox, being unable to cast swords or the quasali in his hand =(

I really wanted to see The Rock take the win finally in a open series.

[2Rach]

Did anyone see what the Confidant flip was the turn he played Deed? Was it Qasali Pridemage?

EDIT:
How do you see the videos again? They post reruns right?

[sdematt]

It was a Pridemage.

I think you've right, he should have equipped and swung with the Bird, or the Confidant so he could mow down some guys.

Drawing the Wastelands didn't help him either, and that's why you don't play 4 Wastelands, kids.

All in all, he should have won, Alex was in a crap position. At this point, I consider he took first in spirit. Good job Yoni! :)

Also, I'm pretty sure there were 2 Junks in the Top 16. As well, they claim Junk and Merfolk are two of the most popular decks in Legacy. I disagree, Rock is only 1% of a tournament, usually.

-Matt

[2Rach]

Yeah, should have played Qasali, equipped Confidant and attacked as a 3/2 with possible +2/2 from Jitte counter. Would have been in great shape. Next turn he can play and activate Deed or whatever(not that that's even close to the optimal play).

EDIT:
He blocks with lord, pump for +2/2 and then build up more counters next turn+STP with Mox.

He blocks with Coralhelm, give +2/2 both die and kill Lord with a counter on it.

He doesn't block, either kill Lord or wait for next turn to kill coralhelm.

Great position. Deed was terrible there.

EDIT:
As far as the Wasteland comment. I think that's wrong. His mana was fine at that point, the only thing he wasn't able to play was Hymn. He would have won that game if he didn't make that huge misplay.

EDIT:

In the finals game 3, blow up Pernicious when he had bob and jitte on the board and his only white and black source was birds and mox, being unable to cast swords or the quasali in his hand =(
I guess I didn't quite pay attention to your post when I read it, Alex. He had Mox+Forest+Birds for colored.* Good enough for the deck in my experience.


*I guess that means he had Hymn mana too...


EDIT:

Ugh, misplayed that deed big time, should have equipped the bird and swung.
Attacking with Birds is wrong here. He'd prefer(if I was him) the colored mana, and if you need to, it's better to use Birds as a blocker for Coralhelm to throw it away. Confidant's an all-around better attack here.

Guess I should have read the last page more carefully.

[PanderAlexander]

Also, I'm pretty sure there were 2 Junks in the Top 16. As well, they claim Junk and Merfolk are two of the most popular decks in Legacy. I disagree, Rock is only 1% of a tournament, usually.


For the SCG series, Rock is actually the third most played deck in the past 4 series behind Merfolk and Goblins:

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/MarchLegacyMetagame.jpg

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21670_Too_Much_Information_Legacys_Last_Four.html

Rock imo is the best non-blue deck in the format and what I would play if I didn't love blue so much. The combination of the deck top 8ing in Columbus and your resurrection of The Rock thread with the new updated primer has helped increase it's popularity ten fold.


EDIT:
I guess I didn't quite pay attention to your post when I read it, Alex. He had Mox+Forest+Birds for colored.* Good enough for the deck in my experience.


It's good until you blow up Pernicious and left with one forest and wastelands, thus my =( face. Playing 12 straight rounds of magic probably contributed to his problem, he played really great up to that point.

[sdematt]

Mistakes happen, but in spirit, he won. 'Nuff said. Rock isn't the easiest deck to pilot, and after a long day with minimal food, relaxation, and drink, you can be off your game.

I was playing Deadguy in a GPT and in the Top 4 I Thoughtseized his hand when he had Painter Servant naming Blue on board. He had Force and REB, and I couldn't decide which to choose. Why? I was thinking force was a non-pitch free counterspell, and I was super tired. In about 30 seconds I realized what I was doing and chose REB. Hey, it happens.

Also, thoughts on this list? Nothing fancy. I've upped the land count to 24 to help support the Moxen without getting totally fucked by colour screw and to make more hands keepable and not needing 3 lands to get there. Thoughts?

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2/1 Swamp
0/1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 WAsteland
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland

3 Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Swords
3 Mox Diamond/ 1 Iok 2 Path or something
3 Vindicate
2 Jitte
1 Deed
1 EE/Deed

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
---------
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Deed
1 Bog
2 Extirpate/Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
+4 slots


Thoughts? It's not the same GSZ build, but with that you lose some of destructive power. Obviously, you can just cut Win-dicates if you feel the need and change the manabase for GSZ if required.

-Matt

[bfeingersh]

Also, I'm pretty sure there were 2 Junks in the Top 16. As well, they claim Junk and Merfolk are two of the most popular decks in Legacy. I disagree, Rock is only 1% of a tournament, usually.

-Matt
FWIW, there was a lot of Junk at the tournament yesterday. I would say the big 4 decks were Merfolk, Junk, Bant with or without NO, and... High Tide???? Believe it. I saw at least 15 people playing it, so about 10% of the field.

And I wouldn't say it was an issue with wastelands. I know I wouldn't play without 4, I just think his mana base was a little odd. Fewer basics, fewer black fetches, MD Bojuka Bog and Sejiri Steppe, Dryad Arbor w/o NO, and 2 Canopies. I played the following lands yesterday:

3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

With 3 Moxen.

[JMarchi]

Hey guys! I've been following the discussion over for a while and decided to kick in my 2 cents. I've been playing Junk for a few months now and I've been consistently making top 8 or just missing at the events I've played in. Here's a summary of my thoughts on the deck and my current list with a few changes noted that I'll be testing later this week:

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy - will be trying Volrath's Stronghold over it
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe

I use all the fetchlands that can get a swamp because that's typically my t1 play if the opponent has Wastelands, or if I don't know what they're playing. I don't mind grabbing all basics and going that route, especially if I have a mox diamond as it blanks opposing Wastelands and is pretty doesn't really set me back any. I heard some discussion about 3 Wastes, but I think there's too many situations where wastes can just keep an opponent locked out of the game and are awesome, or they get pitched to a mox. I only play 2 of each dual instead of 2/3 because I never see myself wanting a 3rd, so the extra slot is an extra utility land. I like main deck Bojuka Bog because it's great in so many matchups: any deck with knights, painter/stone w/ welder, it's really the only card I have against dredge, and sometimes it's randomly good in other places. I think mdc1010 had a good point with cutting Horizon Canopy, looking at most of the games I've had it I've just used it to cycle, whereas Stronghold let's me pick a card to draw and that card is going to be good, but I haven't tested it yet (it also plays well with Jittes in the main, as he also pointed out). Karakas is standard and Maze is great against aggro plans and decks like the rock with only a few big beaters, being able to maze your own knight is awesome sometimes too if they aren't pressuring you. I've lost a lot of games were Sejiri Steppe would've won it, and we just saw Yoni Skolnik win with it last night, though, steppe does make the deck 61 cards because the main is pretty tight.

3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte - I'm trying them over Inquisition of Kozileks I've had main.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pernicious Deed

I've heard a lot of discussion on Mox Diamonds or not. I really like them. On the draw, it helps me get a Thoughtseize through Daze or Cursecatcher, on the play I get a t1 threat that demands an answer like Jitte, Confidant, or Hymn. It helps get around wastes and fixes the mana, it's really an all star. I had been playing 2 Inquisitons main and they were great, 90% of the time they're Thoughseize without the life loss and I may be doing 3 Seize 1 Kozilek like Gerard Fabiano did in Team Italia. Vindicate was never super great so I bumped it down to 3, it's really the only answer to a Moat, Tezzeret, or a Thopter Foundry among other things so I don't think I can justify 2. I would not leave home without some number of deeds main deck. Goblins, Merfolk, and Affinity which are among the most popular decks, have a rough time against it and if you play it correctly and don't blow up all your stuff unnecessarily (like last night's finals), it's usually enough to get the game. From what I've played against affinity, if you have deed you can't lose, but if you don't get it you usually do lose.

Sideboard that I had been playing:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat

Merfolk and Goblins are pretty popular in my city and since Plague is close to an auto-win in those games, I play 4, though, 3 is reasonable if it's not as popular, the spot removal is there for those matchups too as well as the mirror. ANT and other combo decks can be tough, so I've been playing the set of Duress to try to even it up. I haven't had to board in the Grips in quite a while so I'm cutting them back. Natural Order is gaining popularity in my area so I need to fit in some Perish. Again, I look at mdc1010's list. I really like the sideboard he posted, Leyline of Sanctity seems awesome and now with Jittes main to help Goblins and Merfolk, I don't mind cutting back my removal for more combo hate which I need to replace Inquisitions. I'll be trying his sideboard in the next week. For those of you who don't want to scroll around to find it:
3 Duress
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Perish
1 Pernicious Deed

So there you go, a miniature War and Peace on my Rock experience. Opinions welcomed.

[C Rayz Walz]

Honestly Plague is horrible vs merfolk. Every merfolk player I know always laugh when they face that card. Now it is really good vs goblin though.

[Arsenal]

Merfolk tends to be too redundant and plays too many Lord-creatures for Plague to be effective. I want EE, Deed, and more spot removal in this matchup.

[mdc1010]

@ JMarchi

After my GPT I would consider going to 3 swords and brining the vindicates back up to 4. Also I ran a 1/1 split of perish and nataures ruin only because I couldn't find a 2nd perish.

I also want to fit in a serji steppe, just not sure how yet. I may move karakas to the side as emerkual is more of a sideboard plan in most decks now.

[sdematt]

Plague against Folk won me infinite games at the GPT we had when I played Deadguy (mind you, Deadguy isn't Rock, but my point still stands). If you can get rid of Coralhelm and Vial, Plague is a beast, especially when you have equipment.
I dropped one game against Merfolk that entire tournament with Plagues coming out of the board.
-Matt

[JMarchi]

I'll agree that Merfolk do have a lot of lord effects, but there's also plenty of spot removal spells to handle them. If you get 1 plague, there team dwindles significantly and the can't be as aggressive because if their lords die so does their team, and a second plague is game over. It may not be as much of an all-star as it is in the Goblins matchups, but I'll never complain about having it. I want to try EE against Merfolk, but I'm a bit reluctant since it seems to me like a worse Deed. I'm probably setting it to 2 most of the time, and I do have a lot of my own cards at 2 mana, plus Deed gets Vials.

@mdc1010
I think that moving Karakas out may be correct, most of the time I use it is to just make Kira vulnerable.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ E. Plague. Albeit board sweepers like EE/Deed are far more useful than E. Plague, that having been said E. Plague is in no way a dead card against Merfolk. Yeah, they run 16 Lords. But negating even 1 lord effect can be enough to save you anywhere from 1-5 damage based on the game state. I currently don't run E. Plague in my list considering my meta has a whole 1 Gob/Merfolk/Kithkin (which, amazingly, is actually quite amazing at stalling the shit out of games. O.o').

I'm just curious to know if anyone else besides me has opted for the Stoneforge toolbox and if so how it's been performing for them in tournaments. I transitioned from Deadguy several months ago to Rock and opted to keep the toolbox as I liked the obvious utility. The toolbox is currently eating the Moxes/3 flex spots however I'm not quite sure whether or not I like the Mox removal. Before I aquired my KotR and was using Nighthawk as a substitute mana fixing was less troublesome but once I obtained the KotR I found the necessity to have access to any color a necessity. I'm not as concerned with explosiveness since I really have no aggro in my meta I need to race. Nearly everything is midrange decks.

ForlornEgoist

[sdematt]

I found the toolbox was fine, I was never disappointed, but I literally have no room for it.

-Matt

[Koby]

@ SFM Toolbox:

FWIW, I've converted my Bant deck to a SFM set since the deck doesn't run enough threats to stand on their own. If I'm not mistaken, Junk/Rock also has similar problems? Only difference here is Bant is reactive disruption, whereas Junk is proactive; but both are tap-out decks with KotR. It should be emphasized that this package is stone garbage against combo. However, vs TES & Dredge I leave in 1-2 SFM and 1 Jitte to stop the token plan.

[ivanpei]

I've had success with Mother of Runes in the Flex slots instead of Inquistion/Mox and Jitte instead of Elspeth. This lowers my curve somewhat so I don't miss the mox diamonds. Mom protects the all important bob/kotrs while being an anti Aggro gem. Carrying a Jitte/protecting Jitte carriers is nothing to laugh at either. Credit to Matt Elias and his list that T8ed SCG (he played moms too). As for the SFM package, I don't see why not, but there's not much to cut though. I prefer Vindicates over SFM.

[C Rayz Walz]

I have played a good amount of games vs folk and every time I play it the other player just laughs at it as it is way to slow vs them. I guess it is a differ in opinion but I would never bring them vs folk as I never think the do enough.

[JMarchi]

On a non-plague related note...Karakas. So we play it to bounce Emrakul, but aren't most Show and Tell/Sneak Attack players aware that we have it and won't they play around it? So couldn't we maybe bluff that we have it, because if they think we do they won't go for it til Karakas won't matter.

[ForlornEgoist]

Karakas isn't really hard to play around. Our only means of tutoring it is via KotR, and just because we have an answer doesn't mean we'll draw into it. Even then post-SB a S&T player will just side in Moon effects, or Needles, or other means of answering Karakas. Their more worried about playing against our discard rather than a land that can only answer 1 of the 3 average creatures run in their deck. That having been said, just because you may find Karakas to be subpar does not make it any less useful of a land to have in this MU. Increasingly at the Starcities and other legacies I've been looking at the deck analysis and it looks like S&T is a deck we're starting to see grow. Not by an amazingly elephantine amount, mind you, but enough where Karakas is a card you will definitely want to be running.

If you are finding it lackluster, then at the very least being able to shut off Emrakul justifies a slot. Even if you are worried they can play around a Karakas, remember that Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate can also answer Emrakul so forcing them to stall their game even a turn can be highly relevant.

Notice how I kinda argued both sides without actually giving a solid standpoint on the issue? Lol.

Forlorn Egoist

[mdc1010]

At this point I feel karakas belongs in the side. The show and tell decks right now are coming out of the side in decks like painter or counter top.

[Nelis]

Even if you are worried they can play around a Karakas, remember that Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate can also answer Emrakul so forcing them to stall their game even a turn can be highly relevant.

How?

[sdematt]

Yeah, those don't hit Emrakul. Only Edict, Tariff, Deed on 15, Wrath, and Karakas hit Emrakul. Unless you want your anus torn open or you literally see zero Emrakul/Iona in your meta, run it.

I'd run it just for making it easier to hit Kira. Target her, getting the Karakas ability countered, then Swords her.

-Matt

[publius_aelius]

@ matt

that's sweet. didn't cross my mind. :)

btw.

I'm actually against running Karakas because the only way you can consistently play it is when you have an active knigt.

and it's not that the situation is untenable if you get hit by emrakul. I recently won a game when I got hit by sneaked emrakul, but finished him of with a very big knight. and I mean - VERY. :)

[Nelis]

//Lands 23
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou

// creatures 19
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

// spells 18
1 Elpeth, Knight Errant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Inquisition of Krozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

So, it's very appreciated if you could help me with my sideboard. Thanx.

I'm quoting myself because I didn't get a reply the last time. Anyway I decided to play the following sideboard:

1 Karakas
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Null Rod
1 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Engineerded Plague
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Eventually I ended up going 4-2, making place 7 (out of 25). Unfortunately there was a top 4 instead a top 8. I must say that I was positively impressed by the deck. I felt much more in control than when I'm playing Zoo or Goblins.

I lost to the mirror (discard / mox diamond version) after a long game of maybe 40 minutes, which was a close call for both of us a couple of times (STP on a big Terravore does wonders). And in the last round to Canadian ***** which completely destroyed me. (otherwise I would've made top 4) I won against Dredge (a bit lucky), ANT (very close call, the guy played it for the first time I think) , some crazy sort of homebrew LD deck and another Rock deck (can't remember it's specifics). I was very happy with my wins vs those two combo decks because the sideboard I came up with did what it was supposed to do.

The changes I am going to make to the main deck are:
-2 Maelstrom Pulse (with a Vindicate I might've won game 2 vs Canadian ***** because I had a pulse in hand and a Goyf on the board and he had a Goyf and Nimble Mongoose)
-1 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Kitchen Finks (Gaddock Teeg just does more)
-1 Inquisition of Krozilek (Stupid FOW's)
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Terravore
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Vindicate

The changes I want to make to the sideboard deck are:
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Cold-eyed Selkie
+2 ???

I still have some questions so I hope I'll get a reply this time. ;-)
1. Is Canadian ***** is such a bad matchup or was I just very unlucky.
2. What cards can I add to my sideboard to improve the Goblin matchup.
3. Or is it better to improve the control matchup and with what cards?
4. Should I take out the lone Path and add a third KotR?

[bfeingersh]

@mdc1010: I think the opportunity cost of running Karakas main is so low you really have no reason not to.

@Nelis: I like Maelstrom Pulse a lot, but it's certainly meta dependent. If you think you'll be seeing Goyfs and Knights, swap it for a Vindicate. You're not playing Hymn? It almost seems like blasphemy to not have it in the 75.

And for the sake of discussion, here's the list I played at SCG Boston. The main event went awful (mulligans galore), but I crushed some 8-man side events on Saturday with it.

Creatures:
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Artifacts:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond

Enchantments:
1 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers:
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Instant:
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands:
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist


Changes I would make are:
-1 Pridemage +1 Tarmogoyf (yeah yeah yeah, he's good. I get it. I like Terravore as a one-of though.)
-1 Maelstrom Pulse +1 Vindicate (for the reasons listed above.)
Board:
-1 Nature's Ruin +1 Perish (haven't seen regeneration matter but at some point I'm going to get dominated by a Thrun or something)
-2 Engineered Plague +2 something else

Debating dropping the SOFI (I've found myself almost always getting Jitte), but I need to run the Merfolk matchup a bit to see how sick it is there. Adding Stoneforge Mystic was probably the best change I made recently.

[publius_aelius]

@ nelis
1.) IMHO, you were unlucky. I have only positive experience with C.T. Never lost a tournament match against it with JUNK/ROCK builds and have a clean 4:0.
2.) Kitchen Finks always do the job efficiently. Furthermore, it's absolutely necessary to have an answer to T1 Lackey when you're on draw as well as on play. Apart from that, Goblins hate mox diamond, but that's maindeck of course.
3.) Duress, Hymn, Verdict... The list goes on. But you would have to change MD accordingly.
4.) I would always play 4x Kotr. She's a beast.


Try to change your deck to sth like this:

// creatures 20
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
1 Sylvan Safekeeper (actually - Bob's Bodyguard)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

// spells 17
1 Elpeth, Knight Errant
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse (i'd actually prefer Pulse over Vindicate in this build)
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Nelis]

I specifically don't want to run Mox Diamond with so little lands and I don't want to be forced to fetch Wastable lands just to be able to play Hymn, that's why I don't play Hymn's. I think I want to spend the 2 Sb spots on goblins hate. How about 2 Vendetta's?

I'll take out the Path and add the 3rd Kotr again.

[ForlornEgoist]

I think I want to spend the 2 Sb spots on goblins hate. How about 2 Vendetta's?

If you're worried about the Golbin MU (and the Merfolk MU as well) have you tested Dueling Grounds? Goblins only real out to enchantments is K. Grip if they're a green splash and Merfolk really has no way to answer it upon resolution short of an Echoing Truth which is usually a SB card. Both decks win by swarming the opponent with creatures and we're a midrange deck that wins of the back of 1 or two efficient beaters so Dueling Grounds really doesn't affect us at all while making tribal strategies less amazing.

I'm actually running these in place of E. Plagues currently.

Forlorn Egoist

[bfeingersh]

I think I'm going to do that as well.

[Nelis]

No I haven't tested Dueling Grounds yet since I just picked up the deck. But in my experience so far the biggest problem when playing against Goblins is a turn 1 Lackey that connects. That's why I want a fast answer. When Lackey doesn't connect I'm usually able to ride it out with E. Plagues. I like them a lot especially since it kills most of their creatures. Maybe I should go for Darkblast instead of Vendetta since it's reusable and fuels Tarmogoyf as well. Also good against the occasional Elf deck.

If I feel that Plagues are not sufficient enough in the Merfolk match up I will definitely consider Dueling Grounds. But I'll have to test that match up first.

[sdematt]

@ bfeingersh

Run 3 Tops, for the love of God. They're really good :)

@ Canadian Thresh

So long as you have decent mana development early in the game and don't get 4x Stifled and 4x Wastelanded, you should be fine. You have infinite removal to their threat-light builds. Basically, the key here is to keep your mana on track, land a Top, and strip them apart with discard. Your creatures are bigger than theirs, so just keep on the offensive. If you land big threats, they have to try to burn you to death (which is why you Hymn them...a lot...)

-Matt

[coraz86]

@ bfeingersh

Run 3 Tops, for the love of God. They're really good :)

Maybe it's my personal deck being weird, but in my Rock builds with a full set of Bobs, I've found I see multiple Tops way too often if I run three. With two, I see one almost every game, but literally never multiples. And that's in a straight BG-list, as I haven't gotten around to laying out for a decent KotR package.

I agree that Top is really good, but this isn't a deck that seems like it can do anything with extraneous ones (no Brainstorm/JMS/anything to toss them back in your deck with), and it's definitely not a deck that can burn a draw step on something with zero utility.

I guess the answer is for bfeingersh to playtest and see which way the deck is more friendly? It may well be a personal thing.

Also, bfeingersh; the singleton Terravore seems random. Is it helping you that much that it's not better off as a third Goyf or second Elspeth? (I'm really asking; I miss having places for my Terravores.) If so, how?

[bfeingersh]

Maybe it's my personal deck being weird, but in my Rock builds with a full set of Bobs, I've found I see multiple Tops way too often if I run three. With two, I see one almost every game, but literally never multiples. And that's in a straight BG-list, as I haven't gotten around to laying out for a decent KotR package.

I agree that Top is really good, but this isn't a deck that seems like it can do anything with extraneous ones (no Brainstorm/JMS/anything to toss them back in your deck with), and it's definitely not a deck that can burn a draw step on something with zero utility.
My thoughts pretty much exactly.


Also, bfeingersh; the singleton Terravore seems random. Is it helping you that much that it's not better off as a third Goyf or second Elspeth? (I'm really asking; I miss having places for my Terravores.) If so, how?

I haven't tried a second Elspeth, but I like a Terravore over a Goyf. I've posted in here before that I'm not really a fan of everyone's favorite grizzly bear. Depending on the matchup, Terravore comes down as a 10/10 or more and quickly ends the game. He does get boarded out as he's just a large beater, but he is very good at hitting stuff.

[lavafrogg]

Terravore is such a monster in almost all game ones.
He comes out many times for sideboard hate when the graveyard hate comes in, which will come in when they get face smashed by the trampling behemoth. I personally will never run less than two but I am also slightly insane.

I'm very mad, I just had a huge post on my decklist and recent results that I have had...then the system decided I couldn't edit my post and erased all my hard work...either way here is the decklist, I have been playing it for years and am looking for some help in developing it further.

// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
SB: 2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Ill try and get the rest of the post finished after I sleep and work 14 hours tomorrow...

[Erdvermampfa]

Instead of Terravore I'd rather consider running Doran as a 2of as he doenst necessarly oblige your opponents to side in Graveyard hate ind g2, it's really annoying to have an terravore out there and relic kills it while your goyfs and knights get shrinked too.

I played yesterday with some friends and I came to the point to despise Gerrads Verdict. It simply sucks ass, especially against aggro decks like merfolk as they dont care to discard a cursecatcher or a land most of the time. More removal like EE would have been way better. Another point is that I think that the standard Junk list's threat density is too low. In aggro matchups ( which aren't in our favor at all ) it's really helpful to get out some big creatures to prevent swarming and control decks will have to deal with more threats so I've added 2 EE and 1 Doran in my current list.

[lavafrogg]

Reading your list you did say that you adding one tarmo but the full set is absolutely necessary in any green deck that wants to attack to win. In aggro matches goyf is just your wall and drawing multiples will most likely win you the game.

If you side out terravore and they bring in hate then they are really not hating anything...

[mdc1010]

I played yesterday with some friends and I came to the point to despise Gerrads Verdict. It simply sucks ass, especially against aggro decks like merfolk as they dont care to discard a cursecatcher or a land most of the time. More removal like EE would have been way better. Another point is that I think that the standard Junk list's threat density is too low. In aggro matchups ( which aren't in our favor at all ) it's really helpful to get out some big creatures to prevent swarming and control decks will have to deal with more threats so I've added 2 EE and 1 Doran in my current list.

I would high encourage you to run 2 Jittes in place of the verdicts, and drop horizon canopy for a stronghold. Together they are like chocolate and peanut butter, and they make the deck so much more effective. I've done so much better and won a GPT by doing so. I had felt the same way you did, but don't anymore!

[bracer028]

how does this deck fight against cherrios?

[sdematt]

By eating them?

What's Cheerios? I'm assuming if it's a random scrub deck, just add more Pernicious Deed and I'm sure you'll get there.

-Matt

[bracer028]

but they can get off on you on turn 1-2..before your deed comes in.

[bowvamp]

I think Cheeri0s is a deck with many 0 cc creatures and glimpse.

[Rainbow Maker]

just thoughtseize, inquisition or hymn. without glimpse they just have a grip full of cute kobolds.

[kubalonek]

WTF ?! Who play cheerios? oO
It would be better to focus at relevant match-ups than considering each existing deck like 5c Sunburst Control or other beauties like this -.-'

[bracer028]

WTF ?! Who play cheerios? oO
It would be better to focus at relevant match-ups than considering each existing deck like 5c Sunburst Control or other beauties like this -.-'

some guy took top 8 in a local 40 man tourney with cheerios. i played eva green and he went off on turn 1 and then another on turn 3 when i couldn't find answer to his beastmasters.

[bfeingersh]

So Thoughtseize and Hymn them. The deck is pretty much reliant on single cards, right? Pretty much Glimpse, Gaea's Cradle, Garruk or Beastmaster iirc.

[lavafrogg]

The thing about Rock us that you play white and black, two of the biggest hate colors in the game.... Load up on hate bears or chants if you are losing to combo.

[kubalonek]

some guy took top 8 in a local 40 man tourney with cheerios. i played eva green and he went off on turn 1 and then another on turn 3 when i couldn't find answer to his beastmasters.

Come one one 40 man event does not mean that the deck is competitive. If this would be 200+ people Event and the top8 appeareance of this deck would repeat then yes we can talk about the matchup. For now it is a rogue with small probability of meeting it in any huge event. Besides having so many discard spells should be enough to overcome this kind of combo, and extirpating key things like glimpse should end game.

[lavafrogg]

If we are still discussing a good deck vs a horrible deck please know that chalice at zero completely stops and zero cc cherrios garbage...end of story. If they win game one and three before your first turn then gg. Better lucky than good anyday.

[bthardy]

More Rock in the Top 8 SCG Charlotte. Just won first game in top 4...He's running GSZ but I haven't seen a deck list yet. Dude's intense I know that

[bthardy]

And a scoop in the finals....must've had something to do with AJ Sacher and level 8

[sdematt]

So if not for a huge misplay (I understnad though, nervous and a long day) by Yoni at SCG Boston and a concession (I'm assuming for points) by the other Rock player, we've won the last two SCG Opens. PM Bardo and let him know you'd like this thread to be in the DTB category, if you want.

-Matt

[testing32]

So if not for a huge misplay (I understnad though, nervous and a long day) by Yoni at SCG Boston and a concession (I'm assuming for points) by the other Rock player, we've won the last two SCG Opens. PM Bardo and let him know you'd like this thread to be in the DTB category, if you want.

-Matt

I dropped b/c I wanted to eat cereal out of the trophy and AJ wanted the points. So, we split the cash and other prizes. We still played the match. He took it 2-1. I lost to Jace games 1 and 3.

[Rainbow Maker]

I dropped b/c I wanted to eat cereal out of the trophy and AJ wanted the points. So, we split the cash and other prizes. We still played the match. He took it 2-1. I lost to Jace games 1 and 3.

That is why i have begun to start to hate magic. Planeswalkers, expecially jace.

[lavafrogg]

I view many of the new planeswalkers like the card standstill, if you are ahead on the board and you drop them you will stay ahead and if you are behind then they do nothing. I'll agree that some of them can be OP in certain situations, and that jace TMS should not be abet to bounce creatures, they are far from OP in this format and give control players a bomb that they can sit behind.

Aggro and combo where getting a little out of control in legacy.

[deezy]

some guy took top 8 in a local 40 man tourney with cheerios. i played eva green and he went off on turn 1 and then another on turn 3 when i couldn't find answer to his beastmasters.

Drop EE and laugh....game over....

I run 1 deed and 1 EE main alond with a main deck tutor and 1more of both deed and EE in my board....This setup with the discard and I wouldnt mind that matchup at all...Pretty sure I'd slap the shit outta cheeios....

[bthardy]

I dropped b/c I wanted to eat cereal out of the trophy and AJ wanted the points. So, we split the cash and other prizes. We still played the match. He took it 2-1. I lost to Jace games 1 and 3.


Great job! Enjoyed watching

[sdematt]

Nice job though, Testing 32!

-Matt

[JMarchi]

So, it seems like Green Sun's Zenith has been pretty hot lately. Is that the superior direction to take the deck now?

[sdematt]

Yes and no. Giving yourself access to silver-bullet creatures is good, but you basically have to drop disruption to run it. I'll probably try it, to be honest.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

No in that you will be playing a technically worse version of SotF. As cool as the card is unless you have an engine that you are searching for or a way to power out huge GSZ( like elves) than you are just better playing more business spells than a tutor that can double as a mana ramp( if you wanna open yourself up to a wasteland to the face)

This card will fall the way of living wish/glittering wish....really awesome in theory but not so much when you realize that you need to keep a "zenith board" in your main deck slots...

[kubalonek]

Two top8 in last two SCG open proven that the other approach to Junk including GSZ is possible and very competitive. That is way I do not underestand narrow minded thinking that GSZ will fall like Wish. What else do you need to believe in fact that GSZ version is as good as normal version with vindicates?

[lavafrogg]

The two decks you speak of, in my opinion, show the sheer power of the deck itself. One of the decks has two separate toolboxes and the other has three, including an enlightened tutor board in the side. These deck layout is going to ensure an uneasy game against both aggro and control in that you will be looking for your bombs after an aggro deck can kill you and you will have nothing left to do once the control deck finally gains control.
I do really love the potential for 5 gaddock teegs in game one, i believe that you will have less to do in the second and third games because you are basically trying to preside in some match-ups.

One difference you will notice is that the decks also both run mox diamond and jitte. These cards are both ridiculously powerful in their own right...

Junk/Rock as an archetype is finally starting to become the deck to beat instead of just a solid tier 2 deck. The power level of the cards are ridiculous in their own right and when combined they possess top 8ing power out the wazoo.

[kubalonek]

If Gaddock Teeg stays in play it locks all Planeswalkers, Forces, IGG, Add Nauseam, NO and enemy GSZ this of course shuts of our GSZ also. But is nice to have (having 3 GSZ) access to 6 goyfs, 7 KoTRs during the game especialy with use of Volrath's Stronghold. Additionally 3 more shuffle effects works perfect with STD. Against agro like zoo one good hit discard spell + blocker or StP with wasteland can easily stop them from beeing so aggressive. I don't know how does work against Goblins due to the fact that I did not played against them yet with GSZ but normal construction in G1 I had slight problem to overhelm their early turns domination.

As for Jitte it is rarelly visible in the Standard rock, it appeared in GSZ rock as far as I remember.

The one thing that I don't like in GSZ Rock is that if the planeswalker or humility hits the board there is no answer in form of Vindicate / Pulse.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I really like the E Tutor board. I almost audibled to Junk the night before Charlotte, because I had gotten my Moxen altered, but decided to stick to my Wb, which is ok because I T8ed with it, because of my Tutor board.

I've always loved Gaddock Teeg and Inquisition in Junk. I don't know that I would ever cut Vindicate though, it's just too good.

I'm going to have to test a GSZ light, maybe 2, build with an E Tutor board.

[deezy]

the deck places with and without gsz because it runs the best creature suite in the game and has the best colors for removal/hate cards.....

[sdematt]

To be honest, I'd maybe try 2 GSZ instead of say, Jitte. Not saying Jitte's bad and needs to be cut, I'm just looking for cuts. Then, the traditional list could be changed to something like this, like a GSZ/traditional hybrid:

23-24 lands

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
13

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Win-dicate
3 Sensei's Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Deed
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
22

+1/2 slots

My only issue is, switching to GSZ means you switch the colour reliance moreso from Black to Green. It'll mean you need to change your manabase up a bit to possibly include more green duals and more black, so perhaps a 3: 2 :1 Bayou:Scrub:Sav ratio. It'll also mean you'll need Bayou like you need crack, considering you need double black for Hymn, but we'll see.

Thoughts on the list?

-Matt

[publius_aelius]

Trying to merge the two versions together is a nice idea, but I would definitely add Mox Diamond. In my experience (played app. 100 tournament matches with junk since May last year) Mox is the most potent card in the deck. Maybe:

4 4 4 (kotr, goyf, bob)
1 depending on the meta - Teeg or Sylvan Safekeeper (I can not emphasize enough how important it is to protect one's bob or kotr)

3 GSZ
3 Mox Diamond
2 SDT
4 StP
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn

[2Rach]

I tested a GSZ/Mystic Junk list this past weekend. Basically, his list minus the Birds, a Top, a Jitte for a couple Mystics and a Sword of Fire and Ice. More stock land package too. It did pretty well, but I did miss the removal a bit. It made my Confidant America matchup better and combo matchup better maindeck. I haven't tested how taking out Deeds and putting in Jitte/SoFI has affected the tribal matchups, but in theory it seems like the transition would be fine.

And I ran an Enlightened Tutor package sideboard.


Something like this is probably what I'll be testing/using:

Creatures: 16
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of the Reliquary

Other: 21
3x Mox Diamond
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Lands: 23
4x Wasteland
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Maze of Ith
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
1x Swamp
1x Plains

SB: 15
3x Duress
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Path to Exile / -1+1 Duress/Spellbomb/Aura of Silence
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Engineered Plague
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Bojuka Bog

[CorpT]

Cut Tarmogoyf, not Jitte. Jitte is incredibly powerful. I can't imagine running without it.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I think that you should always run 4 Knight. That being said I really don't like Bojuka Bog, especially if you're playing E Tutor. Not being able to wipe a GY in response without an untapped Knight without summoning sickness is pretty week IMO.

What are everyone's thoughts on The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? In all my testing I've rarely been sad to see it, and when I was I usually pitched it to Mox Diamond. I think it helps tribal MUs immensely and is good against any deck running more than 12 creatures.

I'm not real sure what the Affinity and Meandeck MUD MUs are like for Junk but I would think that a single Null Rod in the board could be amazing with E Tutor. Yes I know it shuts off Top and Diamond, but it stops Affinity from doing anything other than turning dudes already on the table sideways. It also stops Metalworker/Forgemaster and any artifact lands anyone may be playing. Against Tendrils it shuts down LED andLotus Petal.

If you're opposed to Null Rod, Serenity may be a good consideration.

[CorpT]

I like Kataki for all of the artifact based decks. Affinity, Counter Thopter, MUD, Stax... it is very effective against all of those.

[Tim the Enchanter]

I like Kataki for all of the artifact based decks. Affinity, Counter Thopter, MUD, Stax... it is very effective against all of those.

But you can't search for Kataki because he's white (yeah I went there) and he's not an artifact.

[bowvamp]

@CorpT
He's still running 1 Jitte & cutting Tarmogoyf in The Rock isn't smart. Tarmogoyf is incredibly powerful. I can't imagine running without it.

[bracer028]

@CorpT
He's still running 1 Jitte & cutting Tarmogoyf in The Rock isn't smart. Tarmogoyf is incredibly powerful. I can't imagine running without it.

i don't know how anyone runs less than 4 goyfs when using any green in a deck

[CorpT]

i don't know how anyone runs less than 4 goyfs when using any green in a deck

It's pretty easy actually. The 1st Jitte is more powerful than the 4th Goyf.

Tarmogoyf is a big dumb creature. That's it. It is incredibly efficient and powerful, but that's it. Jitte, can change games from losing to winning. Having 1 (or even better, 2) in your deck is better than the 4th Goyf.

[bracer028]

It's pretty easy actually. The 1st Jitte is more powerful than the 4th Goyf.

Tarmogoyf is a big dumb creature. That's it. It is incredibly efficient and powerful, but that's it. Jitte, can change games from losing to winning. Having 1 (or even better, 2) in your deck is better than the 4th Goyf.

yes jitte is good, but i would not place it over the 4th goyf. i would rather do it to another card slot.

[Arsenal]

Jitte, can change games from losing to winning. Having 1 (or even better, 2) in your deck is better than the 4th Goyf.

The same exact things can be said of Tarmogoyf; he can change games from losing to winning, and having 3 (or even better, 4) in your deck is better than the singleton XYZ card.

[CorpT]

So why is it that these decks are only running 3x Goyf:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38179
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38056

If you're running GSZ, there is no reason you have to run 4x Goyf.

[Arsenal]

So why is it that these decks are only running 3x Goyf:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38179
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38056

If you're running GSZ, there is no reason you have to run 4x Goyf.

So why is it that these decks are running 4x Goyf and GSZ?

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5964&iddeck=43236
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5991&iddeck=43432
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5991&iddeck=43426
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5964&iddeck=43236

Isn't this fun?

[bracer028]

So why is it that these decks are running 4x Goyf and GSZ?

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5964&iddeck=43236
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5991&iddeck=43432
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5991&iddeck=43426
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5964&iddeck=43236

Isn't this fun?

lol...4 goyfs are very important.

[CorpT]

So why is it that these decks are running 4x Goyf and GSZ?

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5964&iddeck=43236
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5991&iddeck=43432
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5991&iddeck=43426
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5964&iddeck=43236

Isn't this fun?

Woah! Are those from Invitation Qualifiers?! With 34 people in them. That is impressive.

Look, I'm not saying you can't run 4x Goyf. I'm saying you don't have to. People are winning without 4x Goyf. It is possible. GSZ allows you to play both tutor targets and less than 4 Goyfs.

[MoonDark]

I agree with CorpT,

With GSZ you can afford playing 3 goyfs, the jittes are quite important, and without something like Stoneforge Mystique, you should be playing 2x.

[kubalonek]

This is the list that took 2nd place in last SCG open. I playtested a bit and I'm thinking about adding 3 Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse - some problems with planeswalkers and enchants like humility occured - into main but I faced the problem what should be removed. Probably I will decide to play Pulses due to the fact that adding Zenith's shifted deck towards green colour. However I really don't have idea what to take out. Any hints?

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Perish

[bracer028]

This is the list that took 2nd place in last SCG open. I playtested a bit and I'm thinking about adding 3 Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse - some problems with planeswalkers and enchants like humility occured - into main but I faced the problem what should be removed. Probably I will decide to play Pulses due to the fact that adding Zenith's shifted deck towards green colour. However I really don't have idea what to take out. Any hints?

Artifacts
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Perish

i would take out senseis

your mana base isn't all to big so its not too bad to eat a 3 life with bob. also, you have plenty of lands in the deck for the life loss cushion. and jitte helps you get life.

[CorpT]

i would take out senseis

your mana base isn't all to big so its not too bad to eat a 3 life with bob. also, you have plenty of lands in the deck for the life loss cushion. and jitte helps you get life.

Top isn't there just to prevent life loss on Bob. It's also to filter your draws, especially with all the fetches. Go watch some GGS matches where the Rock player leads with Top. It is amazing how much of a difference it can make.

[bracer028]

Top isn't there just to prevent life loss on Bob. It's also to filter your draws, especially with all the fetches. Go watch some GGS matches where the Rock player leads with Top. It is amazing how much of a difference it can make.

hey i'm just giving him suggestiosn since he wants to play pulse. there is no other card i could think of to take that slot.

[Arsenal]

i would take out senseis

your mana base isn't all to big so its not too bad to eat a 3 life with bob. also, you have plenty of lands in the deck for the life loss cushion. and jitte helps you get life.

In attrition battles, the player with Top usually wins. Top, regardless of Bob, is one of the best cards in the deck. Against everything that isn't fast combo, I'd say it's about the best turn 1 play you could resolve.

[CorpT]

hey i'm just giving him suggestiosn since he wants to play pulse. there is no other card i could think of to take that slot.

I'm just not seeing what you can cut for Vindicate/Pulse. With GSZ, the deck plays a little differently and wants to aggressively GSZ for Teeg more often as a means of proactively stopping things that would otherwise require Vindicate/Pulse.

[kubalonek]

So any hint how to get 3 slots running this list or it is not possible to figure out what can be replaced?

[bracer028]

In attrition battles, the player with Top usually wins. Top, regardless of Bob, is one of the best cards in the deck. Against everything that isn't fast combo, I'd say it's about the best turn 1 play you could resolve.

top is better than a turn 1 thoughtseize? thats hard to believe.

[AggroSteve]

i am trying to fit in a second jitte in my list, but i do not know what to cut, ..... jitte is indeed incredibly powerfull, even with so few creatures on our side.

i am running a moxless build now, and am very happy with it, and the only slots i am thinking i could sacrifice are the 2nd quasali, or the 2nd deed, or the 4th vindicate

my list for reference

61 cards (this will never change^^, every deck of mine has that many cards^^)

23 lands

4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
2 quasali

4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition
4 hymn
4 vindicate
2 deed
4 stop

3 sdt
1 jitte

this list fits my playstyle way better than the moxbuilds, and the jitte has just been awesome to me.... that aside i love the addictional targeted discard instead of the mox, with 6 "thoughtseize" i can start allmost every game with it and that is stronger than a 1st turn bob/hymn/goyf IMO

to the topic of cutting 4th goyf if running GSZ.... i do not like the idea at all, goyf is dumb sure, but is to strong to cut IMO. cutting threats for jitte seems wrong to me, since you still need a creature to attach it to, and you cannot expect that GSZ allways solves that problem

to GSZ-users,.... is a maindeck Teeg really that strong? ... i did not test yet, so please enlighten me on this one

[bracer028]

i am trying to fit in a second jitte in my list, but i do not know what to cut, ..... jitte is indeed incredibly powerfull, even with so few creatures on our side.

i am running a moxless build now, and am very happy with it, and the only slots i am thinking i could sacrifice are the 2nd quasali, or the 2nd deed, or the 4th vindicate

my list for reference

61 cards (this will never change^^, every deck of mine has that many cards^^)

23 lands

4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
2 quasali

4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition
4 hymn
4 vindicate
2 deed
4 stop

3 sdt
1 jitte

this list fits my playstyle way better than the moxbuilds, and the jitte has just been awesome to me.... that aside i love the addictional targeted discard instead of the mox, with 6 "thoughtseize" i can start allmost every game with it and that is stronger than a 1st turn bob/hymn/goyf IMO

to the topic of cutting 4th goyf if running GSZ.... i do not like the idea at all, goyf is dumb sure, but is to strong to cut IMO. cutting threats for jitte seems wrong to me, since you still need a creature to attach it to, and you cannot expect that GSZ allways solves that problem

to GSZ-users,.... is a maindeck Teeg really that strong? ... i did not test yet, so please enlighten me on this one

you probably can cut a bob. since you are running 3 sdt and you have the gofys fetched with the gsz.

[Richard Cheese]

top is better than a turn 1 thoughtseize? thats hard to believe.

Why? A resolved Top absolutely affects the course of the entire game, not just the first few turns. Changing dead draws like late-game discard or Moxen or land into actual threats or removal can be the difference between winning and losing.

Granted, so is grabbing a win condition from belcher or a tutor from TES, but the cases for T1 Thoughtseize being game-breaking are much more narrow.

[bracer028]

Why? A resolved Top absolutely affects the course of the entire game, not just the first few turns. Changing dead draws like late-game discard or Moxen or land into actual threats or removal can be the difference between winning and losing.

Granted, so is grabbing a win condition from belcher or a tutor from TES, but the cases for T1 Thoughtseize being game-breaking are much more narrow.

problem with a turn one top is that you have no information on their hand. I could care less about taking the win con with the thoughtseize...well i do care, but information is key in this game.

if i had 1 mana, i can cast either a top or a toughtseize, i would go for the thoughtseize.

[Arsenal]

As I stated earlier, unless you're facing fast combo, why do you opt for Thoughtseize turn 1 instead of turn 1 Top (assuming you have both in hand)? We are threat-lite and we also grind games out via discard and removal to the point where matches often become wars of attrition and resources; Top gives us a decided advantage in getting to threats sooner if the situation calls for it, and it also helps us win the attrition battle.

IMO, it's much more valuable to try to get a Top down asap as opposed to Thoughtseizing on turn 1... combo matchups notwithstanding.

[SpikeyMikey]

i don't know how anyone runs less than 4 goyfs when using any green in a deck

I run 0 copies in my Bant deck. Depends on what you're doing. Sometimes 'goyf just isn't good enough. 99% of the time in Rock you'd rather have a KotR on the board than a Tarmogoyf.

[bracer028]

I run 0 copies in my Bant deck. Depends on what you're doing. Sometimes 'goyf just isn't good enough. 99% of the time in Rock you'd rather have a KotR on the board than a Tarmogoyf.

yes...but those two come out on different turns.

[RexFTW]

If you're running GSZ, there is no reason you have to run 4x Goyf.

I agree. you could just play 4x Leatherback Baloth instead. I mean its the same thing for 1 more mana right?


Hymn and thoughtseize stock the graveyard with different card types. This makes goyf better in this deck than any other. Why would you not play 4?



Granted, so is grabbing a win condition from belcher or a tutor from TES, but the cases for T1 Thoughtseize being game-breaking are much more narrow.
Yeah. Most decks dont run gamebreaking first turn plays like Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey or Wild Nacatal. I dont mind when TES plays duress on my and takes my turn 2 hymn either. Infact i prefer to slowroll my discard instead of taking their early plays in a deck that has a natural tempo disadvantage.

Seriously, play standard instead if you think pay 1 mana: do nothing is the best turn 1 play.

[bowvamp]

@Goyf debate
Rock is the best deck to run Goyf in. If you want KotR IN YOUR HAND in the rock over goyf, by all means try it. The extra 1 mana matters a lot to me.
But I really hope that everyone realizes that contrary to what had been implied by CorpT, there IS a singleton Jitte in the deck. Moondark, if you look at the list he does run Stoneforge Mystic.
Mystique is not = Mystic. One is a quality, which makes it sound like we're playing some kind of enchant creature. I really dislike when secondary spellings become really popular, and I'm sorry for singling out your misuse.
@kubalonek
My suggestion would be
-1 BoP (you already run 1 dryad arbor, which is better with GSZ)
-2 KotR (harder to run w/ less accel)
+1 Tarmogoyf (lower cc beaters > higher cc beaters)
-1 SDT
+3 Vindicate/Pulse

I think you lose less than taking out all 3 sdt, but seeing sdt in multiples really isn't good with this deck. Now, you've got a deck that depends slightly more on GSZ (less threats, less sifters), but it's got 3 Vindicate/Pulse like you wanted.

[CorpT]

You guys must be playing a different deck than I am if you're considering cutting any of the following: 4x Knight, 4x Bob, 3x Top.

[Arsenal]

Cutting threats for removal spells is the wrong move, imo. You don't cut KotR (ever really), but you certainly don't then replace him with removal spells like Vindicate.

[sdematt]

Some of the worst advice ever given has just been presented in the last two pages. No offense to some people, but please don't do certain things, unless you have a really good reason.

Firstly, Bracer, don't cut Dark Confidant. He's massive amounts of card advantage, and I wouldn't cut Tops. Ever played Topdeck mode? It really sucks. Since you don't play blue, you have nothing to filter with. Use Top, it's really good at card quality, not card advantage. If I didn't get them too often in games, I'd play 4.

Tarmogoyf is great, I'd advise you to play 4, unless you have NOTHING else to cut in a GSZ build. Non-Zenith builds should be playing 4, unless you're on a budget. With 3-4 GSZ, it could be acceptable to run 3, but if you have room, play 4 if possible. Beaters are good.

Jitte is very good as well. If you can, I'd fit it in over, say, Elspeth. If you're having trouble fitting it in, make it your 61st :P

Yeah, it seems like GSZ is taking the Vindicate slot. I don't think you can really fit both into the deck unless you cut Jitte, which is a pretty mediocre decision I'd say. Right now, I'm trying 1-2 GSZ just for a Pridemage and having a few extra virtual threats, so we'll see how it goes.

All in all, we basically won the last two opens if not for folding and nerves. We all deserve a pat on the back :)

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Vindicate, just by itself, is extremely powerful. Combine it with Wasteland (KotR by extension I suppose) and Hymn, and you have a brutal resource disruption plan. Yes, it's not as good versus fast decks, but if the format slows down slightly (as people are predicting due to MM), then I see Vindicate gaining more power and a midrange meta ripe for the picking. You guys must really, really like having a toolbox option over the raw power of "I will blow up anything I want".

[Derm]

With the printing of Mental Misstep, should Go for the Throat replace Swords to Plowshares in Rock lists?

Against decks like Goblins (which will probably be running MM), a countered STP is just game over. GFTT kills pretty much everything in the format without the risk of a sneaky counter.

I know that in Legacy, the difference between one mana and two is huge, and I know there will be plenty of times when I'll kick myself because I want to play a Knight and have STP up, but the benefits might outweigh the costs.

And as a side note, GFTT is less obvious when you leave the mana up for it. One untapped white source pretty much screams STP, but two untapped sources might mean you don't have any action or that you just didn't have enough mana for that Knight or Vindicate you're sitting on. Just a thought.

[CorpT]

With the printing of Mental Misstep, should Go for the Throat replace Swords to Plowshares in Rock lists?

Against decks like Goblins (which will probably be running MM), a countered STP is just game over. GFTT kills pretty much everything in the format without the risk of a sneaky counter.

I know that in Legacy, the difference between one mana and two is huge, and I know there will be plenty of times when I'll kick myself because I want to play a Knight and have STP up, but the benefits might outweigh the costs.

And as a side note, GFTT is less obvious when you leave the mana up for it. One untapped white source pretty much screams STP, but two untapped sources might mean you don't have any action or that you just didn't have enough mana for that Knight or Vindicate you're sitting on. Just a thought.

Why would Goblins run MM? What 1 drop are they trying to stop? What are they taking out to put it in? The only 1 drop they could want to stop is opposing MM because they fold to it so hard. I doubt Goblins will such much play at Providence because it is so reliant on Lackey/Via and thus so vulnerable to MMl. Merfolk, on the other hand... they will likely run MM and will be improved significantly with it. The solution is most likely Deed or Explosives.

It's still a little hard to say, but I would expect Swords to remain the best generic removal while sweeps like Deed and Explosive pick up a little power to get around MM.

[Rainbow Maker]

this is starting to really get on my nerves, the mm argument. I'm so sick of the, "this costs 1 cmc, it gets countered by mm, therefore it's bad." Yes, mm is good. However it won't kill every single deck in existence. yes, it will sometimes just be irritating to have a crucial spell countered by mm. It's a good card. But, every deck won't run it. Everyone claims that every single deck that is viable in legacy will either run 4 main and if not, then sideboarded. mm is good, but ultimately the reason why not every deck will run it is because sometimes a spell snare can be a dead card. in essence, that what it is, It's a spell snare in which you take off a mana and a 1 on the cmc for countering.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I agree, Mental Misstep will be good, but what is even worse is starting your decks mana curve on two so they don't have anything to target.

[sdematt]

I was testing Mental Misstep in a variety of decks and I've come to this conclusion:

Mental Misstep is good in the following:

Thopters
Bant
Aggro-Bant/NO Bant
Merfolk
Dreadstill

Mental Misstep is bad in the following:

Zoo
Junk
Goblins
Elves
Storm
----


See a pattern? My god, in blue based decks, MM is good! Usually, I've found it replaces mainboard Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. It's a great card, don't get me wrong, but I was plowing through it all day long with Rock. Yes, sometimes you get hosed. Other times, you don't. I'm not going to play sub-optimally because a card exists. In essence, I shouldn't play counterable spells due to the presence of Force of Will. Guess what? Force is played in more decks than MM will be! *World ends*

It's bad in not Dreadstill/Bant/Folk because what do you take out? I wouldn't ever take out Nacatl, Vial, Lackey, Thoughtseize, Dark Ritual, etc. There's no room in those decks for this card, and even if you make room, the deck doesn't get better. Misttep will make all-in turn 1 or one drops worse, and I see Goblins suffering a tiny bit, since you no longer have to Force Lackey all day. It also means the opponent can counter a Thoughtseize for free on the draw. Should this card have been printed? No, not at all, free counters are bad. Is it ruining the format? As far as I've tested, no. Please, get on with your lives and plow through it. We're the Rock, for Christ's sakes.

----- END RANT----

On another note, I was playing this list all day and so far, I'm loving it.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Swamp/Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
24

4 Knight of the R.
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Qasali Pridemage/Gaddock Teeg
4 Dark Confidant
14

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Pl.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's D. Top
3 Vindicate
21

It had problems with a resolved Progenitus, but that's to be expected. I went at least 50-50 against NO Bant and Merfolk, which is kind of the middle ground expectation of a large tournament.

My board so far is this:

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Deed
1 Cannonist
2 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Needle/Tariff
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog/Loaming Shaman

Thoughts?

-Matt

[ForlornEgoist]

@ sdematt:

I think I agree with the 3/3 Waste/Vindicate. They seem like cards which, particularly in this deck, should be auto 4-4's. In regards to Waste our deck requires color fixing insanely bad and opening a Waste in hand with only 1 other land has often made me mull an otherwise good hand. Not to mention that because we have KotR we can actually tutor it (heck, I could even see justification for going down to 2 although I wouldn't go for the toolbox 1-of). As for Vindicate I like the ability to nix permanants that may slip through discard but in most scenario's I've found it to be a 3cc creature removal which essentially eats up my entire turn which isn't always ideal, particularly when I want to drop a threat.

Cut 1 Scrubland for Savannah? I'm currently running a 3/2/1/ of Scrub/Bay/Sav. May just be a personal preference, but sometimes when I start drawing into creatures having G/W is more relevant than the black. *shrugs*

I may opt to follow your MD Jittes. I've been toying with Stoneforge toolbox on and off but lately I've found myself returning to the Mox crutch (for shame x.x). Equipments are always nice. Although sometimes I feel 15 threats is a tad light for me although I guess Bob/Top get there as they always do (and in your case you have E. Tutor in the SB if necessary).

@ MM. By the gods! With this + 4 MD Revoker in every deck Legacy will inevitably turn into a single decklist![/sarcasm]

Theres no doubt about it that MM will see play, however our deck isn't one that wants or particularly needs it. Our threat base is strong because it is a universal answer. We can affect any deck regardless of archetype,mana curve, or build. Conditional cards aren't going to improve the deck by any means. Yeah, there are times when a StP on my KotR or a T1 Vial can be annoying. But there are an equal number of times where it would be even more annoying to draw a MM and have them cast a 2+cc threat that I can't deal with because I've drawn a MM.

In decks such as the aformentioned (Merfolk, Dreadstill, etc.) it is doubtful MM will replace FoW/Daze. It's meant to net the few cards that might get around FoW/Daze and will essentially replace the Spell Pierce/Snare slot (of which I actually prefer Pierce as it is so easy to catch the opponent tapped out and it applies to far more cards). If they don't draw into MM, fine, they still have 8 backup counters to deal with whatever your attempting to resolve. What happens if the opponent attempts to cast the 1cc and we don't have MM? It resolves. For us to maximize the chance of drawing it a 4-of would be required. MM is a reactive card, and Rock's strength comes from proactive threats.

What would you even suggest taking out/replacing? Rock's list is already pretty tight. Of course there is variance but a majority of Rock's lists typically only have 3-5 flex spots. Most Rock players have reached the consensus that the deck is threat-light and as such reserve the last remaining spots for more creatures or meta cards like Deed.

.02$ have been deposited into the account of MM.

Forlorn Egoist

[RexFTW]

My .50 cents on MM. Clearly playing suboptimal cards because of the existence of 1 card is terrible.



I shouldn't play counterable spells due to the presence of Force of Will. Guess what? Force is played in more decks than MM will be!

You are so right matt. Let me help you make a decklist for this.


4 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Banefire
4 blurred Mongoose
4 demonfire
4 Gaea's Revenge
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 spellbreaker Behemoth
4 scragnoth
4 choke

4 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
16 lands

Sideboard:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Wild Nacatal
3 boil

Ok this deck will be really amazing against anything that plays force of will. They will have 4 dead cards in their deck. How could we possibly lose? Unless they dont draw the force of will..... then our advantage would be neutralized.
You will notice that there is one spell that can be countered and that is Choke. This is why autums veil is included in the deck. Making sure choke resolves for 4 mana is essential against blue decks. Then they can no longer play their non free counters or slippery bogles.

The sideboard is mostly in case we play against a deck that doesnt have blue. However, you will note the synnergy between boil in the sideboard and the 4 boseijou in the maindeck. This will let us destroy all islands and it will be uncounterable. The extra life we are paying will not matter because they will have no islands! Red elemental blast lets us counter standstill if they play that.

Notice there are no spells with splitsecond because those can still be countered by counterbalnce and willbender

My .50 cents on MM. Clearly playing suboptimal cards because of the existence of 1 card is terrible.

[ForlornEgoist]

Decklist

*mumbles to self* If I perhaps ran 8 sol lands, maybe a Hierarch or Birds it might be viable. lol, Thank you for posting that. It made me giggle. ^.^

Forlorn Egoist

[Arsenal]

There will never be a card that would stop me from running a playset of StP unless they printed a strictly better StP.

[sdematt]

Unless you get to pick two targets with one Swords, then I'd drop Swords.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Ground out a ton of games with Rock against Merfolk with Misstep, Dredge, Bant, and NLT today. Over the past two days, I've sacrificed at least 20 hours for you guys. The results:

Favourable against NLT, for sure. I won 4/5 preboard, and 4/5 postboard games. You just have so much removal. Watch out for Mind Harness out of the board.

Bant, you do alright against. As long as they don't Natural Order, you are usually fine. Progenitus is hard to deal with, since we're usually in the one-shot range. This was tested as NO Bant with GSZ and Misstep. With the current board, however, I had no outs to resolved Progenitus.

Dredge I absolutely pounded. Having 9 pieces of hate for them (2 Teegs, 2 Deed, 3 E. Tutor, 2 Crypt, 1 Bog for 3 Vindicate, 4 Hymn, 2 Jitte,1 Confidant for boarding) was insane against them. I dropped a few preboard as were expected, but postboard I did very well.

Misstep is decent in Merfolk. Not being able Thoughtseize can be annoying. If you can, and as you should, lead with Thoughtseize if you have Top and Seize. But, take Vial if they let it through, not Misstep (hand dependent, of course). Here, the matchup wasn't terrible, but the Jittes are absolutely huge. Needle on Vial was also very good, but this is my flex slot for Tariffs/Perish against Emrakul/Progenitus. Still not your best matchup, damn you Kira. Deeds out of the board really help, but Hymns on the draw are very meh.

-----

Some patterns I noticed were as follows:

-A one-of Steppe would have helped deal lethal at one point in the game.
-Stronghold was only good in the Bant/NLT matchups, otherwise, it was far too slow.
- A one-of Hierarch/Birds or a Dryad Arbor was relevant a total of one time, most due to poor shuffling of a land clump.
-Playing 4, 4, 4 of your base threats is really good. I'd never go below that. Adding Qasali and 2 GSZ was really good, upping my threat count to 16.
-24 lands seems like flood-central, but is decent when trying to get through Wastelands. I usually slowed down, but plowed through Wastelands. 4 Basics and 8 Fetches also really helped. Even without Moxen, I'm VERY stable.
-A 1-of Savannah would have been helpful a few times, but not enough as of yet for me to add it in. It'd most likely replace a Scrubland.
-Jitte was super great. I love it to death :P
-Teeg in the board was very good, especially with GSZ, against Dredge. Qasali also helped, as I usually targeted my Top to clear out Bridges.
-Without Perish/Retribution of the Meek/Tariff, we have 0 outs to a resolved Progenitus. Couple that with multiple creatures with said Progenitus, and Edict becomes shitty. Retribution and Perish also kill our stuffs. We need something to deal with this.

-----------

My board as of now, is as follows (Maindeck contains 2 GSZ)

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Knight/Goyf, Tombstalker, Combo for IGGY loop, Enchantress)
2 Engineered Plague (Tribal, Thopters)
1 Cannonist (Combo)
2 Gaddock Teeg (Combo, NO Bant, Jace, Sneak Attack, other GSZ decks, EE)
1 Bojuka Bog (Dredge, Knight deck)
2 Needle/Perish/Tariff (Needle for Jace, Vial, Thopter, Grim Lavamancer, Tezzeret. Tariff for Emrakul, Progenitus, etc.)
2 Pernicious Deed (random decks, Stax, Enchantress, Affinity)

Thoughts? I'm thinking Cannonist could be cut, but it's one of my few early pieces of Combo hate. Thoughts?

-Matt

[mdc1010]

Some patterns I noticed were as follows:

-Stronghold was only good in the Bant/NLT matchups, otherwise, it was far too slow.
-Jitte was super great. I love it to death :P
-Teeg in the board was very good, especially with GSZ, against Dredge. Qasali also helped, as I usually targeted my Top to clear out Bridges.
-Without Perish/Retribution of the Meek/Tariff, we have 0 outs to a resolved Progenitus. Couple that with multiple creatures with said Progenitus, and Edict becomes shitty. Retribution and Perish also kill our stuffs. We need something to deal with this.

-----------

My board as of now, is as follows (Maindeck contains 2 GSZ)

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Knight/Goyf, Tombstalker, Combo for IGGY loop, Enchantress)
2 Engineered Plague (Tribal, Thopters)
1 Cannonist (Combo)
2 Gaddock Teeg (Combo, NO Bant, Jace, Sneak Attack, other GSZ decks, EE)
1 Bojuka Bog (Dredge, Knight deck)
2 Needle/Perish/Tariff (Needle for Jace, Vial, Thopter, Grim Lavamancer, Tezzeret. Tariff for Emrakul, Progenitus, etc.)
2 Pernicious Deed (random decks, Stax, Enchantress, Affinity)

Thoughts? I'm thinking Cannonist could be cut, but it's one of my few early pieces of Combo hate. Thoughts?

-Matt

Jitte and stronghold are like peanut butter and jelly. They go together. I run 3 perish in my side mainly for elves but also for no bant. I have no fear clearing my board against a resolved no into progen. I just use the stronghold to get whatever back.

A other cute trick is to use the stronghold to put a dryad arbor on top, to avoid a bob ping death. I kept sacing the arbor to my knight, it was great, lol. Thought I am not 100% on running the arbor yet, I was just trying it out.

I think you can drop the canoeist and e. Tutor package. We have enough draw and library manipulation that is just more cute then anything else.

I would run a 1/1 split of crypt and relic to avoid being needled out of the game.

Are you only running 1 deed main since you have 2 in side?

[2Rach]

About to go to my prerelease, so real quick, @Progenitus: I've been meaning to test Runed Halo with my Enlightened Tutor sideboard. Also helps against Tendrils of Agony and other random stuff.

EDIT:
And there's no reason to run two Plagues. You just need one against Elves, Goblins, and Humans.

[publius_aelius]

Thanks Matt for the feedback!

Although I don't play the same list as you do, but a more orthodox one, I'll bear your remarks in mind, especially merfolk MU.

[kubalonek]

I would like to notice that against kira very good card is Karakas. Target it once with Karakas and then kill with anything else :)

[sdematt]

As much as I used to smack-talk E. tutors, they can be rather awesome.

I'm going to grind the TES matchup and see if the Teegs, E tutors and Cannonist get me there. If Cannonist doesn't help, it'll lose the slot to a Tariff.

I know we run a lot of manipulation, but I'm running E. Tutor so I can essentially have 5 virtual pieces of artifact-based grave-hate against Dredge without having 5 narrow use slots. Plus, it lets me tutor for Jitte, Top, and Deed when needed. It also means I have 4 virtual Cannonists.

I'll grind 20 or 30 matches against TES with this board and see, but I feel Needles will have to come out for Tariff/Perish.

-Matt

[CorpT]

Jitte and stronghold are like peanut butter and jelly. They go together.

How do they go together? Jitte is obviously good, but how does Stronghold make it better? Or Jitte make Stronghold better?

[sdematt]

I'm assuming he means you can suicide a Confidant, for example, just to get Jitte counters, then recur it.

-Matt

[CorpT]

I'm assuming he means you can suicide a Confidant, for example, just to get Jitte counters, then recur it.

-Matt

That's pretty loose and takes a whole lot of mana. 2 to equip. 3 to put on top. 2 to replay. I don't see a whole lot of scenarios where that's going to come up. I don't think either is bad (in fact, Jitte is amazing) but I don't see how they go together. I don't think you're playing either with that scenario in mind.

[sdematt]

That's the only scenario I could see them interacting like PB and J, unless you can think of another :)

-Matt

[mdc1010]

That's pretty loose and takes a whole lot of mana. 2 to equip. 3 to put on top. 2 to replay. I don't see a whole lot of scenarios where that's going to come up. I don't think either is bad (in fact, Jitte is amazing) but I don't see how they go together. I don't think you're playing either with that scenario in mind.

Together they won me a gpt, and i have been sold on them ever since. Its performed much more sold as a result. We are very light on threats in traditional junk builds, and can't outrace various tribal or aggro decks usually. The stronghold and Jitte solve a lot of issues the deck has together. The stronghold is superior to canopy and should take that slot with ease.

A good example would have been in the 2nd to last legacy open where it was junk vs fish in the finals. The junk player had favorable board position with a bob and Jitte. If he would have sandbagged a stronghold in hand, chump blocked with bob, then recurred him, it would have put him in a very favorable position. It's only 2 to activate stronghold as well. In testing the builds with mox have no issue with it.

The reason they are so good together is because of the synergy of being able to constantly play your threats over and over. Otherwise just adding the Jitte by itself in most junk builds is really not that good. Unexpectedly chump blocking with a bob with a Jitte, and letting him die, then going to your 2nd main and playing a stronghold has turned over so many games for me.

[sdematt]

What is this second page nonsense? Results? Testing? Comments? Ideas? There's a GP in two weeks guys, come on!

I haven't ground games against Storm yet, but I think I'll try to tomorrow night.

-Matt

[Derm]

Okay, so I took a lot of hate for asking if Mental Misstep rendered Swords to Plowshares sub par as removal. In order to clear my conscience, I had to reply and say that you guys were totally right. Thanks for setting me straight, albeit with a great deal of anger and ridicule. From now on, I say screw Mental Misstep. I'm not afraid. Also, I've actually played against it now, and it's just another pesky blue card.

On to the topic I actually wanted to discuss...

Have people tried Crucible of Worlds in the sideboard? I was looking for a sideboard option that was good against the mirror, good against Team America, good against Counterbalance---good against the slower, non-combo, non-aggro decks.

Crucible has been sick. If you look on the New Horizons thread, people there have been advocating it for a while. In order to optimize its usefulness, it's probably best to have 1 Horizon Canopy in your deck, but even just with Wasteland it can end the game pretty quickly.

[Tim the Enchanter]

About to go to my prerelease, so real quick, @Progenitus: I've been meaning to test Runed Halo with my Enlightened Tutor sideboard. Also helps against Tendrils of Agony and other random stuff.

EDIT:
And there's no reason to run two Plagues. You just need one against Elves, Goblins, and Humans.

I play Runed Halo in Hate Crimes and it works well enough it's nice to have an out to Progenitus and another way to stop from getting Jaced in the face.

2 E Plagues is not a bad idea. It lets you actually draw one without having to tutor for it twice as often and sometimes one really isn't enough against Goblins or Elves. I really like Ghostly Prison in those, non-combo, MUs though especially with Tabernacle.

[sdematt]

Crucible would be fine in a really slow meta; other decks like Dreadstill have been known to run it. Wastelocking an opponent or getting your Maze back is never a bad thing, I just think most of the time this is very slow unless your deck puts huge roadblocks (Moat, Humility, Jace, etc,) in the way. You can definitely give it a try and tell us how it went :)

-Matt

[Dzra]

I've been pretty busy lately and with all the National Qualifiers and New Phyrexia releases and whatnot there haven't been any Legacy tournaments here in a while. I'm still tinkering with various takes on the deck, trying to find something I like a lot (I've played around with BUG a bit too). If I come up with anything interesting I'll post it.

[novatinhu]

Hello,

I will play a qualifier for the National Legacy Legacy of Brazil, I'm thinking to play with one of the lists bellow:

Classic Rock (I dont have Maze of ith and Karakas)

4 dark confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

8 Fetch
5 Dual
3 Basic lands
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy

Zenit Rock

4 dark confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Birds of Paraside
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage


4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Green Sun's Zenith

8 Fetch
5 Dual
3 Basic lands
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

What you believe is most effective for many with a goal: Goblins, Merfolks, MonoRed, Adnauseum, Elf combo, Affinity and Zoo

And what is the best for this fild side, my side now is:

2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Dueling Grounds
1 Engineered Explosives

[ForlornEgoist]

The Green Sun's Zenith-build shines more in mirror and control MU's. If you're expecting more aggro (which based on the posted meta you are) you're better off going with the midrange-control build featuring MD Deed/EE. I'm iffy on the 2 MD Jitte in the first build with only 12creatures to support it but as I've never tested that I can't offer any opinion beyond speculation.

@ SB:
The Kgrips in the SB seem... off. I personally would rather MD 2 Qasali Pridemage in an aggro meta so you can get out an extra body and take advantage of the Exalted triggers. I would also suggest changing out the Needles for Revokers. Yes, it dies to creature removal, but the deck wants more bodies and if you need to go a more aggressive route then more creatures will be necessary. You may also want to consider sbing in some Go for the Throat. Against tribal decks Vindicate essentially becomes a sorcery speed 3cc kill spell which can hurt our tempo incrediby. GFtT kills everything you need it to and is instant speed. I prefer avoiding PtE as I sometimes want to go all Ponza on their mana base and PtE is counterintuitive to that strategy.

If you plan to run Dueling Grounds you may want to up the count to 3 and perhaps run 1-2 Elspeth in the Jitte slots.

Hope that helps.

Forlorn Egoist

[mdc1010]

Hello,

I will play a qualifier for the National Legacy Legacy of Brazil, I'm thinking to play with one of the lists bellow:

Classic Rock (I dont have Maze of ith and Karakas)

4 dark confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

8 Fetch
5 Dual
3 Basic lands
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Horizon Canopy

Looks very good. I won our GPT with a similar build. I would drop the main explosives for either a 2nd deed or 4th vindicate. The deed will give you more outs in game 1 against a greater range of decks. I am a huge supporter of running Jittes and a stronghold.

If you run the zenith build a great trick is to chump with your dryad and return it with a stronghold. That trick is even better with a active confidant.

[novatinhu]

The Green Sun's Zenith-build shines more in mirror and control MU's. If you're expecting more aggro (which based on the posted meta you are) you're better off going with the midrange-control build featuring MD Deed/EE. I'm iffy on the 2 MD Jitte in the first build with only 12creatures to support it but as I've never tested that I can't offer any opinion beyond speculation.

@ SB:
The Kgrips in the SB seem... off. I personally would rather MD 2 Qasali Pridemage in an aggro meta so you can get out an extra body and take advantage of the Exalted triggers. I would also suggest changing out the Needles for Revokers. Yes, it dies to creature removal, but the deck wants more bodies and if you need to go a more aggressive route then more creatures will be necessary. You may also want to consider sbing in some Go for the Throat. Against tribal decks Vindicate essentially becomes a sorcery speed 3cc kill spell which can hurt our tempo incrediby. GFtT kills everything you need it to and is instant speed. I prefer avoiding PtE as I sometimes want to go all Ponza on their mana base and PtE is counterintuitive to that strategy.

If you plan to run Dueling Grounds you may want to up the count to 3 and perhaps run 1-2 Elspeth in the Jitte slots.

Hope that helps.

Forlorn Egoist

Im thinking to cut 1 EE in MD for a Qasali but i dont know what more to cut for a second one, i dont like run GFtT in MD becouse im afraid in take some Affinity's, probably i will cut the EE MD for a Qasali or a second Deed.
Thx for the advices!

[sdematt]

Remember boys and girls, Deed splatters Affinity's brains all over the pavement! Plus, I expect a ton of poor people to show up at the GP, which means Dredge and Affinity will be everywhere. Since I love hating on the poor, I'm thinking 3 Deeds between main and side should do it. It'll be like throwing pennies at homeless people, I hope.

-Matt

[Derm]

So if I have 2 slots set aside for maindeck sweep effects, is Deed or EE better?

[Arsenal]

People are cutting Vindicate in order to run Green Sun's Zenith? Really? I don't understand this logic. Vindicate is the ONLY maindeck card we have that can deal with resolved noncreature permanents; relying solely on discard to pre-emptively deal with said permanents is a poor strategy.

Green Sun's Zenith increases your threat density, which is great as Rock decks traditionally are straddling the border of being too threat-lite, but you're giving up Vindicate to effectively run "more" creatures? To me, Vindicate is one of the defining cards of Rock decks as it synergizes with our resource denial gameplan incredibly well (Wasteland + Vindicate can actually just win games), but it can also serve as a control card.

[Nelis]

You have to cut something to make room, I guess. I for instance have taken out Hymns.

[testing32]

People are cutting Vindicate in order to run Green Sun's Zenith? Really? I don't understand this logic. Vindicate is the ONLY maindeck card we have that can deal with resolved noncreature permanents; relying solely on discard to pre-emptively deal with said permanents is a poor strategy.

Green Sun's Zenith increases your threat density, which is great as Rock decks traditionally are straddling the border of being too threat-lite, but you're giving up Vindicate to effectively run "more" creatures? To me, Vindicate is one of the defining cards of Rock decks as it synergizes with our resource denial gameplan incredibly well (Wasteland + Vindicate can actually just win games), but it can also serve as a control card.

Vindicate under performs in the current meta. It was good when CB was popular because of the lack of 3 drops in that deck.

It's too slow against the aggro decks and does nothing against combo. GSZ allows you to run pridemage for those problem cards like moat/ensnaring bridge/etc. Stronghold lets you recurr him if they run moat + thopter foundary etc. GSZ also gets around CB so vindicate isn't as needed.

Gerrard's verdict gets cut because Teeg is better against combo by a long shot and keeps you from getting blown out by top decks.

The mana denial game plan is strong but isn't as strong as running 7 knights. that lets you get wasteland fetching online more consistently.

No vindicate hurts when fighting jace but not that many decks run him.

[sdematt]

You can have it all if you play my list.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage

2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach


-Matt

[CorpT]

People are cutting Vindicate in order to run Green Sun's Zenith? Really? I don't understand this logic. Vindicate is the ONLY maindeck card we have that can deal with resolved noncreature permanents; relying solely on discard to pre-emptively deal with said permanents is a poor strategy.

Green Sun's Zenith increases your threat density, which is great as Rock decks traditionally are straddling the border of being too threat-lite, but you're giving up Vindicate to effectively run "more" creatures? To me, Vindicate is one of the defining cards of Rock decks as it synergizes with our resource denial gameplan incredibly well (Wasteland + Vindicate can actually just win games), but it can also serve as a control card.

If you're playing GSZ over Vindicate, you can (and should) play Qasali Pridemage. That gives you outs/answers to most non-creature permanents. Gaddock Teeg is also a good pre-emptive answer to a lot of the permanents/spells you would want to deal with as well. GSZ also opens you up to tutorable sideboard slots.

[Dzra]

I don't think it's a bad idea to take out Hymns and Verdicts for GSZ, a Teeg, and a Pridemage. With GSZ, Green becomes a much bigger focus color than Black.

I would completely disagree that Vindicate is bad against combo though. Our goal against combo is to stall them as much as possible until we can win. We can't outright race them and discard alone won't always work, especially against High Tide. Vindicating/Wastelanding lands can put combo out of the game.

[Arsenal]

If you're playing GSZ over Vindicate, you can (and should) play Qasali Pridemage. That gives you outs/answers to most non-creature permanents. Gaddock Teeg is also a good pre-emptive answer to a lot of the permanents/spells you would want to deal with as well. GSZ also opens you up to tutorable sideboard slots.

I am aware of this, but at the same time, why are you running GSZ + 1-of Pridemage when you can just run Vindicate? Also, I would argue that the current E Tutor SB plan is much stronger and versatile than a GSZ SB plan as many of the specific hate cards you'd bring in for matchups just so happen to be artifacts or enchantments while GSZ gives you... Teeg?

[Nelis]

GSZ allows you to run pridemage for those problem cards like moat/ensnaring bridge/etc. Stronghold lets you recurr him if they run moat + thopter foundary etc. GSZ also gets around CB so vindicate isn't as needed.

It seems to me you're putting a lot of eggs in one basket.

Also there are plenty of other (non enchantment) threats you would want to get rid of, I wouldn't dismiss Vindicate that 'easily'.
edit: I'm a bit slow: I fully agree with arsenal.

[testing32]

I am aware of this, but at the same time, why are you running GSZ + 1-of Pridemage when you can just run Vindicate? Also, I would argue that the current E Tutor SB plan is much stronger and versatile than a GSZ SB plan as many of the specific hate cards you'd bring in for matchups just so happen to be artifacts or enchantments while GSZ gives you... Teeg?

You gain md teeg whose value can't be understated. You also gain dryad arbor. You still run the E Tutor board.

Edit: That is just the flexability. You also get GSZ itself which usually turns into knights.

What match up do you think will suffer by dropping vindicate for GSZ? I can't think of one.

[Arsenal]

I haven't seen many (if any) Rock lists running Dryad Arbor. Lots of Bant lists do, but that's because they also play Natural Order which we do not. Outside of being able to have 3 mana on turn 2, what does Arbor do for you? Carry a Jitte (if your list runs Jitte)? That still doesn't seem stronger than Vindicate.

[Ahdam]

You can have it all if you play my list.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage

2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach


-Matt

Nice build Matt. Good threat desity with +2 GSZ and full creature suite. superb utility with the +2 Pridemages (GSZable) plus the base deck windicates/swords to winshares. Still retaining the full CA package to boot!

Personally i play in a kinds slow controlish meta so i may only run 1 jette (+1 cruciable) and -1 swamp +1 stronghold but overall i like the build. Going to give it a try. Do u miss not having dimonds? i find them awsome in the first 10 cards, but useless after turn 4.

IMO things like teeg (which impact 50% of the games per random matching) belong in the sideboard as it does not advance our game plan.

Also... Vindicate kills Jace!! DIE JACE DIE!!

[CorpT]

I haven't seen many (if any) Rock lists running Dryad Arbor. Lots of Bant lists do, but that's because they also play Natural Order which we do not. Outside of being able to have 3 mana on turn 2, what does Arbor do for you? Carry a Jitte (if your list runs Jitte)? That still doesn't seem stronger than Vindicate.

It's not like anyone is saying that Dryad Arbor is better than Vindicate. What we're saying is that the flexibility of GSZ is as good or better than Vindicate.

[Nelis]

. Outside of being able to have 3 mana on turn 2, what does Arbor do for you? Carry a Jitte (if your list runs Jitte)?

It can act as a surprise blocker (fetch it) Personally I'm not sure if that's enough reason to run it in the Rock but I put in in my list for now.

edit: I'm so slowwww

[trilobite_hives]

On another note, I was playing this list all day and so far, I'm loving it.

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Swamp/Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
24

4 Knight of the R.
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Qasali Pridemage/Gaddock Teeg
4 Dark Confidant
14

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Pl.
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's D. Top
3 Vindicate
21

It had problems with a resolved Progenitus, but that's to be expected. I went at least 50-50 against NO Bant and Merfolk, which is kind of the middle ground expectation of a large tournament.

My board so far is this:

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Deed
1 Cannonist
2 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Needle/Tariff
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog/Loaming Shaman

Thoughts?

-Matt


I can't believe I just now discovered this site. This is some amazing discussion on a deck that I am very much enjoying playing right now. This list seems like the perfect balance between the GSZ and traditional builds. It will hurt to cut the Mox Diamonds (I just LOVE the FtV:R art) but I think this is a great compromise. This also looks like the exact type of sideboard strategy I have had in mind. I'll be bringing a list very similar to this to a tournament on Saturday. I'll post back with results at some point as well.

[Arsenal]

It's not like anyone is saying that Dryad Arbor is better than Vindicate. What we're saying is that the flexibility of GSZ is as good or better than Vindicate.

But you're not gaining any flexibility whatsoever (replacing Vindicate with Pridemage =/= flexibility), you're merely increasing your threat density as GSZ will often times be used as KotR/Goyf #5-6. Junk's silver-bullet toolbox creatures are rather unimpressive as the main selling point will be Teeg, and he's only relevant in a handful of matchups. I'm all for increasing threat density in a deck that runs 12 creatures, but not at the expense of cutting Vindicate.

[CorpT]

But you're not gaining any flexibility whatsoever (replacing Vindicate with Pridemage =/= flexibility), you're merely increasing your threat density as GSZ will often times be used as KotR/Goyf #5-6. Junk's silver-bullet toolbox creatures are rather unimpressive as the main selling point will be Teeg, and he's only relevant in a handful of matchups. I'm all for increasing threat density in a deck that runs 12 creatures, but not at the expense of cutting Vindicate.

Getting a Pridemage when you need a Vindicate and a Knight when you need a beater = flexibility.

What are you Vindicating that you can't live without?

[Arsenal]

Have fun Pridemaging a Jace or Humility or opponent's land when you have him on the ropes w/ Wasteland. Also, increasing threat density =/= flexibility.

[sdematt]

Without Vindicate, you're cold to Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Jace, etc. Of course you can attack Jace, but sometimes you really can't if they've got huge bombs like CounterTop Thopter or a huge whack of creatures.

I would, however, not have 4 Vindicates, because they're slow. Sometimes, one-for-ones just aren't good enough, and Kira really screws you over. My point is, with 2 Pridemages and 3 Vindicates, you have plenty of answers to artifacts and enchantments and you have outs to Humility.

Regarding Mox/Birds/Arbor, I've had the Birds/Dryad argument be relevant twice out of a hundred or so games. At times, I could have one with one more mana, but most of the time, it's not relevant. I could see going down one Swamp for an Arbor just to have the option, or cut a Pridemage for a Birds, but I've found it more useful to have the utility. Once again, I'm running an extra land in the place of Mox Diamond, so I've been pretty consistent, even through Wasteland. Not as explosive, but consistent.

@ Cannonist

I tried out the board with Cannonist, and it's an absolute house against Enchantress, but mostly Storm combo. Mixing discard, Teegs, E. Tutors, and the ability to find Cannonist was amazing post-board. At times, you do get freakin' owned by continued Silence then they combo, but it happens. You're not blue, so you can't counter spells, and today I Wasted, Hymned, Thoughtseized, and then he topdecked Ad Nauseum. It happens.

@ Runed Halo

In theory, this seems like a good call since I don't have slots for Tariff, and I'd have to draw them naturally. It owns Progenitus until they get Grip or Qasali, helps against Combo, they can't Grindstone you, it can protect against opposing Hymns or Burn spells, and can help beat out Jace or Tezzeret. I'm running it as a one-of, and it seems fine.

@ Teeg in the board

Teeg in the board helped, especially with GSZ, against Combo and Dredge. Having them not be able to AN or Dread Return was huge. Plus, he also shuts off opposing GSZ, EE, Jace, Natural Order (which I expect to be big at the GP), Wrath of God, Tezzeret, Moat, Humility, Smokestack, Mindslaver, etc. I won 90% of my postboard matches against Dredge by doing the following:

+3 E tutor
+2 Deed
+1 Crypt
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Bojuka Bog

-4 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Jitte
-3 Vindicate
-1 Dark Confidant

My opponent got it so hard most of the time. I died to a turn 2 Iona, though. One more turn would have allowed me to GSZ for Teeg :(

Thus far, my board is as follows:

2 Engineered Plague
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gaddock Teeg

I've had great success with this board. It has a little bit of everything against everyone, not counting Mono-Red burn.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[trilobite_hives]

@ sdematt

Your list on page 60 adds up to 61 cards, unless I am doing something wrong. The odd card out seems to be the 1x Pernicious Deed, and I don't think I would feel very comfortable without at least 1 in the main deck. Everything else about the list seems great.

What are your thoughts on Choke out of the board? I am thinking of packing 2 in the SB tomorrow. It seems like there will be A LOT of Merfolk running around, and it has uses against plenty of other decks as well.

[sdematt]

You're correct, the list is 61.

Choke out of the board could be interesting if you're expecting a bunch of Merfolk. At that point, I'd also run more Needles for Vial to completely lock them out.

Maybe the changes to my board for you:

-1 Deed
-1 Runed Halo
-1 Cannonist
+2 Choke
+1 Needle

-Matt

[Erdvermampfa]

Matt, have you ever felt that your list might not support KOTR enough with only 8 fetchlands and 3 wasteland? Im wonder about that since im tinkering on a list with the same configuration.

[sdematt]

I don't think by adding another Wasteland and a Horizon it'll be THAT much better. I usually get my Knights to 4/4 or 5/5 when cast, and they just go from there. You could always add another Wasteland, but if you're running no acceleration, I'd rather have another basic to not get Wastelanded out of the game.

Bojuka Bog feels like the weakest slot in the deck, so I think I'm going to change it to a singleton Null Rod. It helps against Combo, Equipment, MUD, Affinity, Top (which I can side out), Mox Diamond based decks, etc. It goes in against more decks than Bog, since you don't ALWAYS want Bog where you want Crypt, if that makes sense. Bog is great against Knight decks and Dredge, but that's about it. Null Rod shuts down more matchups to end in my favour rather than a Bog.

I've listed some sideboarding notes I did today, let me know if you think anything seems unreasonable. It's definitely possible, considering I've been playing Magic for eight hours grinding matches with Rock.

Storm:
+2 Teeg
+1 Crypt
+1 Cannonist
+3 E. Tutor
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Plague (for TES)
+1 Deed
-2 Jitte
-4 Swords
-1 Maze of Ith
-3 Vindicate

Enchantress:
+ all in except 2 E. Plague and a Crypt
-2 Jitte
-1 Maze
-4 Swords
-1 Goyf/Knight
-4 Hymn

Merfolk:
+2 Deed
+2 Plague
+3 E. Tutor
+1 Needle
-4 Hymn
-1 Qasali
-3 Vindicate (or what else here?)

Zoo:
+3 E. Tutor
+2 Deed
-1 Bob
-4 Thoughtseize

Goblins:
+2 Plague
+2 Deed
+2 E. Tutor
+1 Needle
-3 Vindicate
-1 Top
-2 Pridemage
-1 Thoughtseize (on the draw)

43 Lands:
+1 Needle
+3 E. Tutor
+1 Crypt
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Null Rod
-1 Maze
-2 Jitte
-4 Hymn to Tourach

Dredge:
+3 E. Tutor
+2 Deed
+1 Crypt
+1 Spellbomb
+2 Teeg
+1 Null Rod (if LED)
+1 Plague
-2 Jitte
-4 Hymn
-3 Vindicate
-1 Swords
-1 Thoughtseize

Elves!
+2 E. Tutor
+1 Cannonist
+2 Plague
+2 Deed
+2 Teeg
-1 Maze
-4 Hymn
-3 Vindicate
-1 Top

High Tide:
+3 E. Tutor
+1 Cannonist
+1 Needle
+2 Teeg
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Null Rod (possibly)
-4 Swords
-1 Maze
-2 Jitte
-1 Deed

Team America:
No boarding that I saw that was relevant, Crypts aren't better than my other cards.

NO Bant:
+2 Deed
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Runed Halo
-1 Vindicate
-2 Hymn
-2 Qasali

4C Counterbalance
-1 Maze
-2 Jitte
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Swords
+2 E. Tutor
+1 Deed
+1 Needle
+1 Runed Halo

CounterTop Thopters:
+3 E. Tutor
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Needle
+1 Runed Halo
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Deed
+2 Plague
-4 Swords
-1 Maze
-2 Jitte
-1 Thoughtseize
-4 Hymn

MUD:
+1 Null Rod
+2 Deed
-2 Jitte
-1 Random

Affinity:
+2 Deed
+3 E. Tutor
+1 Needle
-4 Hymn
-2 Jitte

Painter:
-1 Maze
-2 Jitte
-3 Vindicate
-1 Top
-1 Goyf
-1 Hymn
+3 E. Tutor
+2 Deed
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Crypt
+1 Needle
+1 Spellbomb

Aluren:
+3 E. Tutor
+1 Runed Halo
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Needle
+1 Cannonist
+2 Deed
+1 Plague
-2 Jitte
-1 Maze
-3 Top
-3 Vindicate
-1 Goyf
-1 Knight

New Horizons:
+2 Deed
+1 Spellbomb
+1 Needle
-2 Jitte
-1 Hymn
-1 Qasali

Stax:
+2 Deed
+2 Teeg
+1 Needle
-2 Jitte
-4 Swords
+1 Crypt

Dreadnought:
+2 Deed
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Needle
+1 E. Tutor
-2 Jitte
-2 Hymn
-1 Goyf

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Destroying Angel]

Against Stax you should also add in one additional Gaddock Teeg and a Tormod's Crypt. Right now you're taking out six cards and bringing in four. I believe those are the ones we agreed on earlier.
Null rod isn't correct in every metagame but it is an incredible paradigm changer against a subset of decks that can otherwise be a definite threat. With discard, a combo deck can simply topdeck a win; null rod generally requires them to first draw a solution. Plus, watching affinity players squirm is always fun.

[Anen]

+2 Deed : Enchantress, Elves, Dredge, Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Affinity, MUD, CounterTop Thopters, NO Bant, Dreadnought, Stax, New Horizons, Aluren, Painter.
+1 Deed : Storm, 4C Counterbalance.
+0 Deed : Team America.
-1 Deed : High Tide.

Why not more Deed MD Matt ?

[sdematt]

We were actually having this same discussion over coffee at 2am yesterday. As much as I love Deed in the main, I don't really want to cut anything FOR it. Out of the board I don't mind, but most game 1's I seem to draw them both all the time. As of yet, 1 Deed main has been fine.

But I agree with your observation: I bring Deed in a hell of a lot, but, is this the right call against the decks I've listed?

-Matt

[Dzra]

I wouldn't bring Deed in against non-lynx Zoo, NO, New Horizons, or Storm but otherwise you seem right. It depends too on what alternatives you might have.

I'd probably use Deeds against 43 Lands also.

[BWM]

About the sideboard-strategies:

Goblins:
I take out Hymn to Tourach instead of Thoughtseize, since the Thoughtseize can hit Lords//Piledriver, while Hymn is just random. Thoughtseize also works better with the "I resolve two plagues and he will scoop them up"-plan.

Merfolk:
I always board out some dudes, since they will have answers post-board. Possibly Perish (you can take a guess after the first game), but also stuff like Sower of Temptation or Mind Harness or Vedalken Shackles. I always keep Vindicate in against merfolk. They can also board in Back to Basics...

Mud:
When boarding in Null Rod, you also want Enlightened Tutor.

Affinity:
Null Rod looks good here too... Effectively being a 2-mana Armageddon.

Painter:
Null Rod should go in.

You forgot a plan for the mirror

[AggroSteve]

i was wondering why sideboarding out jitte against affinity, ... i play affinity as well, and when playing affinity if i do not have the nuts i feel very uncomfortable when jitte hits the table, i would actually take out 2 vindicates as they feel very slow to me against affinity (of course jitte is not much faster^^, but it takes out more of the opposing creatures)

[CorpT]

I can't imagine taking out Jitte vs Affinity.

[Dzra]

Jitte seems pretty good against Affinity. I'm guessing it's being sided out because it conflicts with Deed.

[sdematt]

@ no Rod against MUD/Affinity

I just forgot to add in the tutors and Null Rod, but I meant for them to go in there :P

My thoughts were that Jitte doesn't kill Tezzeret and usually gets Deeded away, whereas Deed and Vindicate kill things. I wouldn't board out Vindicate, it tends to hit bad things like Cranial Plating, Tezz, etc.

Merfolk is moving towards mono-blue as of late (I figure people are going to play what Bertoncini plays). I wouldn't want to board out threats, since they have more threats than you and you can't always 6-for-1 them.

@ Mirror match

My thoughts on the mirror were as follows, considering the success of the GSZ version:

Possibly board in Teegs, not only as threats, but to shut off EE, possible Elspeth, GSZ, etc. Qasali doesn't seem like too much of the nuts, but exalted could be pretty hot. When playing the Rock Mirror, Deed was SO important, at least that's what I found, as was the discard war. Usually, taking their Hymn was the right play, and taking them off green with Wasteland. There wasn't a card I really want to board out, to be perfectly honest.

-Matt