Diminish VS Chilling shade

[Offler]

There is a dispute on our forum what will happend if the Chilling shade is pumped up and opponent plays Diminish on it afterwards.

Local Level II judge said that the Diminish affects only base numbers printed on card so the Chilling shade will become 1/1 + the pumped value.

I cannot fully agree with this. If there are any +1/+1 counters on the Chilling shade the diminishing will work that way in any situation (1/1 + counters). If there is any enchantment such as Honor of the Pure (just say that something similar what affect black chilling shade) of some other static ability which grants +1/+1 it will also apply afterwards.

But if the Shades effect is activated and sucessfully resolved and then is diminishing cast the Shade will become 1/1...

However if the shade is pumped up and the Diminish is cast in respond (on top of stack) the effect will be as described.

[mchainmail]

There is a dispute on our forum what will happend if the Chilling shade is pumped up and opponent plays Diminish on it afterwards.

Local Level II judge said that the Diminish affects only base numbers printed on card so the Chilling shade will become 1/1 + the pumped value.

I cannot fully agree with this. If there are any +1/+1 counters on the Chilling shade the diminishing will work that way in any situation (1/1 + counters). If there is any enchantment such as Honor of the Pure (just say that something similar what affect black chilling shade) of some other static ability which grants +1/+1 it will also apply afterwards.

But if the Shades effect is activated and sucessfully resolved and then is diminishing cast the Shade will become 1/1...

However if the shade is pumped up and the Diminish is cast in respond (on top of stack) the effect will be as described.


http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a

It all comes down to layers.

Since all we're discussing is P/T, it's all in layer 7.

7a: CDAs. (Nothing to see here)
7b: P/T Setting effects. Diminish makes Shade a 1/1.
7c: P/T Changes that don't set. Shade gets +1/+1 (honor of the pure, etc. apply here too)
7d: Counters (Nothing)
7e: Switching (Nothing)


Shade will always get the +X/+X, regardless of the order things are done in.

[Offler]

Ah Yes, i remember now. Thats the reason why I asked about similar cards (ovinize). I just cant find a point why they still print this mechanic when it does not have any real impact on the game. At least such effects had great impact on game.

I would like to use standard stacking...

[mchainmail]

It has the same impact it's always had.

[luma]

It has the same impact it's always had.

Actually, Diminish-type effects used to override boosting effects, because before M10 they were in the same layer.

[Anusien]

Pretend Diminish rewrites what's in the actual P/T box.