Snake Vial

[Jabari]

So I have been working on this deck for awhile now, and I've come up with a list I'm ready for everyone to tear apart and make better.


4 Coiling Oracle
3 Looter il-Kor
4 Lorescale Coatl
1 Trygon Predator
1 Wonder

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Mana Leak
2 Sylvan Library
3 Standstill
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Spell Snare

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Forest
9 Island


The idea behind the deck is basically trying to build a better Fish deck. The Coatl gets way bigger than anything they can play and the card advantage is insane. I especially like the ability of brainstorm to act as a giant growth as well, turns out to be a cool little trick.

My list is slightly budget as can be seen through my lack of FoW, Tropical Islands, and Jace but it has been doing pretty well for me, lack of force has costed me though. Outside of those two cards I feel the list is pretty solid UG Tempo. I've tested very little but so far I've played against: Fish, Rock, Goblins, and some sort of BG Thresh. Unfortuneately I haven't had a chance to face any combo or heavy control.

I can't give a perfect play by play but the general take-away from each match was as follows.

Fish - The deck performed as designed, fish couldn't keep up. I was running SoFI at the time instead of Jitte's and it cost me. The extra 1 in cc is crippling for the tempo of the deck. Basically if the sword was a jitte I would have went 2-1 instead of 1-2 (that's not to sound overly confident or anything, my opponent agreed).

Rock - I lost game one to my opponent's hand of 3 Thoughtseize 3 StP, but took games two and three. The card advantage is just too insane if a single Looter sticks. Game two he did make a slight mistake in that he waited a turn or two too long to StP my Coatl. He was hoping to top deck a maelstrom pulse but he never got there, the result being me gaining over 12 life.

Goblins - This was a terrible matchup, my meta hasn't had a Goblin player in ages though so I wasn't anticipating this matchup. Basically my only shot was to be on the play and go T1 Vial T2 Standstill. After playing against the deck in our downtime, the final tally was 0-6. That was with a full set of Blue Elemental Blast out of the board too.

BG Thresh - I don't know exactly what this guy was playing, but it didn't seem very good. I won the match 2-0 but it probably isn't very valid when concerning my decks MU's.

SB:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Echoing Truth


The sideboard I'm not too sure about. I feel like the maindeck is fairly strong the sideboard plan is still really weak though. All suggestions are welcome there.

[AlterEgo]

If Tropicals are out of budget, I'd at least throw in one or two Breeding Pools. If only for the moments, when you need that one green mana for Sylvan Library, but only have Islands and Scalding Tarn.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Ohran Viper over Looter! :O Moar snakes!!

[Jabari]

Good suggestion, I think I only like viper against goblins. Can you think of any other DTB it is appicable against. As of now I think I'll drop Submerge in the SB for viper.

Any other suggestions?!?! Is this list just too bad to warrant any discussion?

Oh and I consulted with some regulars and they said proxies for the Tropical Islands were fine so no need for the Breeding Pool

[(nameless one)]

I used to love Sakura-Tribe Elder. Maybe it will have a home here.

[Scatterbrain]

The main flaw I see with your deck is that you cannot properly take advantage of the tempo you gain in the early game with Daze and Aether Vial. 13 creatures isn't enough to make Vial good. Most of the time Vial is just going to be card disadvantage for you. I'd cut something for Mystic Snake and Tarmogoyf and maybe Lumbering Satyr as a finisher, since you need to find ways to make your Coatls unblockable. I like the synergy with Looter and Daze and Oracle and Daze, but that might end up a little too cute.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Man, love the deck but just wish Snakes had some sorta Lord to give them some sorta recursion, boost, or w/e >.> Even squirrels & rats get Swarmyard, I mean come on!

[AlterEgo]

Man, love the deck but just wish Snakes had some sorta Lord to give them some sorta recursion, boost, or w/e >.> Even squirrels & rats get Swarmyard, I mean come on!

Well, there's the Seshiro clan... oh wait. Yeah, I see what you mean.

[Jabari]

@Scatterbrain: I disagree with you about the Mystic Snakes, I used to run them as a 4 which dropped to 3 soon thereafter, then 2, followed by 1 at which point it just seemed too cute. It would be the only 4 cost creature in the deck so while putting vial to 4 seems cool in practice it is really awful. Sure sometimes it's a counterspell basically with split second but it is too easy to see coming, so people play around it.

I would love to run goyf but in the same way I can't afford Tropical Islands I can't afford goyf. If I could I'd probably cut vial standstill for 4 goyf and different card draw.

Wonder is essentially the equivalent of Satyr except not as easily removed since it's already in the 'yard and boarding in gravehate for 1 wonder doesn't sound like a great sb plan.

@Mystical_Jackass/AlterEgo: I WISH! Seriously it would make the list so fast. There is one lord with great synergy but the cost is impossible Seshiro the Anointed. I was considering this card for awhile but if you run it, it requires an entirely different list. You would need 4 lotus cobra (i've been considering it in place of coiling oracle as is but it just seems unnecessary) and a very ramp oriented deck. If someone wanted to sketch one up I might be tempted to try it, but I've been preoccupied with optimizing this list.

Update: This weekend I'm gonna be playing a local legacy tournament and I'll probably pilot this deck. Hopefully I'll be able to type some good news come monday. I'm really anxious to see how it does.

Edit: Also I really don't like the name of the deck, I think I'm just gonna change it to TUG - tempo blue green.

[muscleb]

Perhaps Cold-Eyed Selkie could get a spot in the deck as well, noble hierarch also.

[Scatterbrain]

@Scatterbrain: I disagree with you about the Mystic Snakes, I used to run them as a 4 which dropped to 3 soon thereafter, then 2, followed by 1 at which point it just seemed too cute. It would be the only 4 cost creature in the deck so while putting vial to 4 seems cool in practice it is really awful. Sure sometimes it's a counterspell basically with split second but it is too easy to see coming, so people play around it.

I would love to run goyf but in the same way I can't afford Tropical Islands I can't afford goyf. If I could I'd probably cut vial standstill for 4 goyf and different card draw.

Wonder is essentially the equivalent of Satyr except not as easily removed since it's already in the 'yard and boarding in gravehate for 1 wonder doesn't sound like a great sb plan.

If your opponent plays around mystic snake then you get huge amounts of tempo - they won't cast important spells when an active vial on 4 is in play. Even if you don't have the card they will play around it. You also should not be thinking about taking out Vial/Standstill, as that is what makes this deck tempo instead of bad midrange. Add more creatures. Specifically, you need to have some sort of consistent turn 1 play for when you don't have vial. Noble Heirarch seems good here, as it would enable 4-drops.

Wonder and Satyr are nothing alike. In fact, Wonder seems useless in your deck. How do you plan on putting it in the graveyard? There is one card in your whole deck that can do that. Satyr and Wonder are both 4-drops, but Wonder requires you to then have your opponent attack with something big AND Not have a Swords for it. Also, the matchups which you want evasion all play Forest, so it should be perfect as a 2 or 3 of main deck.

[Jabari]

If your opponent plays around mystic snake then you get huge amounts of tempo - they won't cast important spells when an active vial on 4 is in play. Even if you don't have the card they will play around it. You also should not be thinking about taking out Vial/Standstill, as that is what makes this deck tempo instead of bad midrange. Add more creatures. Specifically, you need to have some sort of consistent turn 1 play for when you don't have vial. Noble Heirarch seems good here, as it would enable 4-drops.

Wonder and Satyr are nothing alike. In fact, Wonder seems useless in your deck. How do you plan on putting it in the graveyard? There is one card in your whole deck that can do that. Satyr and Wonder are both 4-drops, but Wonder requires you to then have your opponent attack with something big AND Not have a Swords for it. Also, the matchups which you want evasion all play Forest, so it should be perfect as a 2 or 3 of main deck.

I don't wanna take out Vial standstill, by any means it's the nuts if they both stick, it was just a really bad joke. You may not have noticed but I'm a very clever guy :) not really

Anyway, hierarch seems really good but in relation to cuts I'm not sure, where at? I could easily cut the spell snare, but for the other two spots the list feels really tight to me. Would it be safe to cut 2 land? I haven't had much experience with hierarch so I don't know how stable the mana base will be at 20 land 4 hierarch.

Hearing your argument for satyr I think I agree, hierarch will make the double green in cmc not such a strain. Wonder is really a remnant of an old list that ran careful study for draw instead of sylvan library. People are surprisingly reluctant to kill a looter though. I don't know why, it streamlines the deck a ton and sets off coliseum really fast which makes it that much better. Wonder has been really easy to pitch with this list.

As for mystic snake, i still think it's too cute. I'd rather just bluff it with vial at 4 than actually put it in my list, it is way too slow by itself.

[Jabari]

So I played in a local legacy tournament today with this list and failed miserably. I would like to say though it is more a result of my terrible luck than a bad deck. I still think the deck is good and definitely competitive, but here are the results.

Round 1 - Hexmage Depths (with living wish sb) - Adam

Game 1 - I keep a solid 7 he Living Wishes I let it resolve expecting to be able to counter the second spell. He grabs Dark Depths out of the board and I feel really stupid for holding onto my Daze. He cleards the board a few times with pernicious deed, and eventually sticks hexmage so it's on to game 2.

SB -2 Sylvan Library, -2 Spell Snare, +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Pithing Needle

Game 2 - I open with a hand of Echoing Truth and Vial+Standstill. He gets out one token that gets bounced and I beat down with a Coatl; eventually finding a pithing needle for hexmage and the second Echoing Truth to seal my victory.

SB Nothing

Game 3 - We both end up mulling to 4 which is extremely advantageous for him. I thought about keeping my 6 with 3 Daze, 2 Jitte, and 1 Island but everyone around me was saying I should mulligan. I succumbed to peer pressure but I really think I should have kept. What would you all have done? Sure you need to hit a threat but dazes should buy enough time against what was at most going to be 5 card hand. He ends up getting off the combo while I topdeck horribly.

1-2

Round 2 - Pox - Chad

Game 1 - I helped him build the deck so I know what's coming and he's seen my list so he also knows what's in store. I think he played the matchup pretty poorly by not protecting his spells very well. He dropped Smallpox without playing around Daze and I ended up smashing in with a Oracle holding Jitte for the win.

SB Nothing

Game 2 - He kept a one land hand and doesn't hit the 2nd for 2 or 3 turns. It gives me enough time to set up 2 Vials and a Standstill so I beat down with Coatls for an easy win. I kinda felt bad for him knowing the deck just wasn't performing the way it had in testing, plus Round 1 he lost turn 1 to SNT Emrakul and turn 3 to SNT Progenitus. Oh well, it happens.

3-2

Round 3 - Bant Survival - Nathan

Game 1 - This just felt like a horrible repeat of game 3 round 1. I know he's playing Survival so I hold onto my counters waiting for it. He drops a Qasali Pridemage turn 2 and he beats down while my Looter loots. I get to counter his Survival but for some reason even after looting and brainstorming I can't find any creatures or jitte's. He ends up putting me at 4 on the back of a lone Pridemage before he gets some vengevines going.

SB -2 Sylvan Library, -2 Mana Leak, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Relic of Progenitus (I don't remember what I took out for these though)

Game 2 - I keep a solid 7 with vial, daze, pithing needle, brainstorm, lorescale coatl, and 2 land. I go vial turn 1, needle turn 2 naming Survival. He gets a stoneforge mystic finding a jitte, but I draw one too and legend bomb it. We're pretty even at this point, but I have 2 vials and a coatl so I drop Standstill to swing it in my favor. He StP's my Coatl in response but I'm still feeling good cause all he has is 1 BoP and 1 Pridemage. Once again I procede to topdeck nothing but land and brainstorms while he beats down with the pridemage. At one point I find a Trygon Predator and Coiling Oracle for blocking. I should have double blocked to which he would respond by destroying Standstill, instead I chump with oracle and he continues to beatdown while I wait for something that can outclass a 3/3. All I find is Looter and I commence looting. I loot 4 times hitting nothing but land. I end up having to break my own standstill just so I can Brainstorm into a creature - I don't find one. I find a cephalid colisseum though and loot three cards hitting all land. I use another Brainstorm and find all land. Now I'm at 1 with no creatures on board except looter after chumping with Trygon. He hardcasts a Vengevine with a lot of land still untapped so mana leak is worthless. I brainstorm into Coatl and Oracle but it's too little too late with my life at 1.

3-4

Wow! I have never had a worse series of topdecks in my life. Honestly, I have never run into such a problem with this deck and I don't think it's the decks fault as much as it is my terrible terrible luck. Still I think I'm gonna move Spell Snare to SB and cut 2 land for 4 Hierarch.

Props:
Seth's Games and Anime for organizing such chill legacy events every Sunday. Seriously, the best place to play if you're ever in the Ventura CA area
Chad for keeping his spirits up all day despite some really unfortunate events
Foil Hatching Plans for being the coolest Standstill proxy ever

Slops:
Me for terrible topdecking
Not finding any Cabal Therapies or Sylvan Libraries for sale/trade
Me for not going with my gut on several occasions in which it would have paid off.

I'll be playing again next weekend, but I'll probably be going with Aluren. If I end up playing this list though hopefully it will perform better.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

I was just browsing and came across this forum. In the past, I have played Merfolk, Counterslivers, and U/W Tempo. All of these decks have used the Aether Vial/Standstill combo. I took the above decklist and tweaked it to what, in my opinion, would be the ideal deck. Some further changes may be needed pending your particular meta.

Creatures-20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Trygon Predator
2 Ohran Viper

Spell-20
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Standstill
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will

Land-20
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
6 Island

I feel that some of the additions I have made are just necessary if the deck is to be optimized. Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf, and Force of Will are just necessary. Tropical Island will smooth the mana base. Tarmogoyf is just super efficient and with counter magic and fetch lands should get pretty big. Force of Will is just amazing therefore a must have in this build. Force of will should help in the Combo match ups.

The inclusion of Ohran Viper is also a must in my opinion. This guy may not hit that hard for 3 mana. But he can selectively take out creature threats along with pumping your Lorescale Coatl when he gets through. I feel in a tempo deck like this he fits right in. Maybe more should be included but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

Thoughts or Comments?

[Jabari]

Greetings All,


I feel that some of the additions I have made are just necessary if the deck is to be optimized. Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf, and Force of Will are just necessary. Tropical Island will smooth the mana base. Tarmogoyf is just super efficient and with counter magic and fetch lands should get pretty big. Force of Will is just amazing therefore a must have in this build. Force of will should help in the Combo match ups.

The inclusion of Ohran Viper is also a must in my opinion. This guy may not hit that hard for 3 mana. But he can selectively take out creature threats along with pumping your Lorescale Coatl when he gets through. I feel in a tempo deck like this he fits right in. Maybe more should be included but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

Thoughts or Comments?

Hey Sturtzilla,

I like your decklist and I agree with most of your comments. After playing this weekend I think Noble Hierarch is definitely a must and as soon as I find a playset I'll test with them. As I've mentioned I don't have very much disposable income so I can't afford to play with the tropical islands, forces, and goyfs but I would if I could.

A few people have suggested Ohran Viper but I have yet to include him in the list. I'm just so hesitant because Looter has been so good to me, plus I don't have the tropical islands to support GG early. I would love to hear your thoughts on the card after you playtest it because I wouldn't mind playing it maindeck if it has good results.

[Sturtzilla]

Hey All,

I have been messing around with the above decklist for a week or so now. It has been playing pretty well and I have been pretty happy with the deck. I have found a few things worth noting.

1. Land Ratio/Mana Base:
I have changed the Island to Forest Ratio to 5/3 as opposed to the 6/2 listed above. I think this will aid in this casting of the Ohran Viper. I generally have enough colored mana. I might try to work in a few Wasteland to power up the deck even further. I will probably try to run about 3 Wastes if possible.

2. Spells
I have found that I don't often enough have the counter magic that I want. I have also found that Standstill, while useful in a hand with a turn one vial, has proven to clog my hand more often than it has really helped me out. Due to these discoveries, I will probably be trying some changes like -3Standstill for +1Daze and maybe +2Spell Snare. Hopefully this will allow the deck to continue to play at a good aggro pace while still having backup countermagic. I think this decision may be just because of my play style. I like to have a bit more counter magic. This might work for others, I am not sure.

3. Synergies
I have been impressed with the ways to build some impressive tempo. Example: Turn One Land and Noble Hierarch. Follow this on turn two with a second land. Brainstorm (or potentially Ponder), stacking a land on top. Play a Coiling Oracle putting the stacked land right into play. One open land left with which to Brainstorm, Ponder, or Counter with a Spell Snare or Spell Pierce. Looks like great tempo to me. You can easily go into turn 3 with 5 or 6 mana production available. Due to this I have been also thinking about adding Ponder to increase the chance of this being a consistent turn 2 play. Ponder is also great late game as it pumps the Lorescale Coatl and filters card options for you.

Just and extra thought: The mana curve in this deck is so low, maxing at 3, and we have vial, so we might be able to cut say 2 lands for ponders, spell pierces, or spell snares. What do you guys think?


I hope these comments help. Let me know what you guys think. I am excited to hear what others have found with this deck.

[Jabari]

Hey Sturtzilla,

I'm happy to hear the deck has been working for you, if you can remember them well enough it would be great to hear some matchup analysis. I haven't gotten to play with the optimized list yet but just looking at it right now I think the list lacks enough card draw to really manipulate the coatl. With your build since you're more likely to have a forest turn 2 I would definitely run Sylvan library, even if you don't pay the life coatl grows 2 extra each turn and it seems like a solid turn 2 play instead of standstill.

I would suggest cutting -1 Vial -3 Standstill, for +2 Spell Snare +2 Sylvan Library

Spell Snare is definitely a meta call and can easily be spell pierce.

Also how did you feel about Viper main? I've got him in SB right now, would you say he's worth the MD slots?

[perm]

if you really want to be a profession al, dont use coiling oracle, as it won't draw you to trigger coatl. trade it for something else imo. But I have yet to see any WOW decks suing coatl.

[Sturtzilla]

@Jabari
I should have thought to use Sylvan Library. It is overall just a better call with the coatls than Standstill. It consistently pumps and can potentially draw you into that game sealing Brainstorm. Good call on that one. As I have been testing a bit more, I have come to the issue of Aether Vial. I really think that the number should be 4, but I have been drawing them more than I would like. I will probably try a list with 3 Vials and 2 Libraries soon. I am still trying to optimize the deck. I will try to get some match up analysis up soon. As I work that out I will be posting some sideboard options as well.

@perm
I agree that Lorescale Coatl hasn't exactly "wowed" me in any deck I have seen either. However, in a tempo build like this with decent control elements, you can easily get him turn 2 with counter backup. Furthermore if your opponent wastes his removal or counter magic on the coatl you can still use every other legacy deck's backup plan of goyf. I am torn on the Coiling Oracle. I realize that it isn't synergistic with the coatl. But the ability to gain major tempo on turn two with him is great. What would you suggest in the one or two drop range as a replacement?

[Jabari]

Coiling Oracle was originally a flavor include plus allowed a turn 2 play with a land ramp untapped, but with the hierarch it might be unnecessary. I still like it in the list but if looking for a substitute for coatl synergy look no further than Looter Il-kor. Sooo underrated, it feeds the coatl, filters, and carries a jitte like a champ. Plus, once people realize its effectiveness the removal it sees means less removal for goyf and coatl.

[Qweerios]

Completely agree with Sturtzilla's list except for a few minor things such as upping the fetchland count to 6 and losing Coiling Oracle altogether. He doesn't draw a card, he puts one into your hand. I see that Snake is simply a theme and that the deck doesn't actually abuse it, only your opponent's can. I suggest Merfolk Looter in its stead for redundancy in card quality, oracle pump, and works through standstill. I also suggest Quirion Dryad as a budget replacement for Goyf.