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citanul
12-06-2010, 05:11 PM
Just like last year the Belgian Legacy clubs organised a Belgian Legacy Championship. After last year ending 9th by going 5-1-1 I had a feeling that I had to make things right this year. Last year I played NLS and top8 was full of easy matchups baring the other AnT player who won the entire tournament. The setup is that there are 4 tournaments during the year where you can earn bye's for this one if you end 1st or 2nd. I only played in one qualifier and ended 3rd with Survival Vengevine after losing to TES in the semi's.

Only 2 weeks ago there was the Dutch Legacy Championship with finals of TES vs UB AnT where AnT came out on top. I decided that I needed a deck to beat Stormcombo and Vengevine to win this Tournament. But the deck had to be resillient to the random decks or even some players that might make the wrong choice, play Goblins and ruin my day during round1. I decided that joining the stormcombo crowd would be the right decision but run Chant effects over Discard effects to win the mirror. I ended up playing the following decklist:

Main:
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
3 Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils
1 IGG
4 Infernal Tutor

Side:
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Silence
1 Meditate
2 Doomsday
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth

I'll post my findings of the deck and some cards at the end of the report.

So me and Jelle drove tot he location and met up with Wim there. We enrolled, talked to a few people and eventually get seated. As mostly I'm sitting across Xavier. We talk a bit while the judge makes his announcements. A total of 59 players showed up which is 30 less than last time meaning 6 rounds of swiss. We hand in our decklists and get ready for game1. I stand up, wish Xavier good luck and gone I am! Jelle is playing my Vengevine Survival, Wim is playing Hexmage Depths.

Round1:
I'm paired against Tom. I've played him several times before. He used to play the Mighty Quinn and AnT but I doubt I can put him on a deck in general.

Game1:
He opens with Verdant Catacombs and passes. This doesn't really tell me much as it could be Vengevine or Stormcombo or even the Survival Ooze deck. I fetch which resolves and get a Basic Island just in case. Cast a Ponder and pass the turn after a shuffle and a draw I didn't really need. He plays a Misty Rainforest and passes. I draw, play Tundra and pass. He drops a Polluted Delta and passes. I don't have a land and use a Ponder, Shuffle again and draw Preordain. I was thinking that he could be playing combo and that I would have to keep W open for the Silence and Chant in my hand. Drawing the Preordain made me make the wrong play and cast it, not hitting land and passing the turn with no mana. He drops Chrome Mox, imprinting Cunning Wish and I know I made the error. He goes Ad Nauseam and wins the game after some reveals.

I sideboard in the 4th Silence and an SDT for 2 Cabal Ritual.

Game2:
I open land, Ponder, Petal to keep Chant open. He casts a Discard effect and has to leave the Silence in my hand because I would go off turn2. I draw Chant for the turn so can't go off yet. Me having the Silence forces Tom to find a Xantid Swarm or a discard before he can go for it. He doesn't find either but I eventually find the kill. Chant him just in case and kill through an IGG loop. I debated it for a second fearing the Fearie Macabre but why would such a card even be in the deck.

Game3:
He opens with a land and Cantrips. I play SDT. He fetches to a Tropical and drops Xantid Swarm. Anoying! I SDT, draw a card, play fetch and pass the turn. I Silence during his upkeep. I can't find another chant or Silence, use some cantrips to build my hand instead and pass the turn, fearing I'm death. He casts Brainstorm at the end of his turn but doesn't have the fetch to follow up. Draws for his turn and starts thinking. My guess here is that he probably has the Infernal Tutor but can't empty his hand. Turns out at the end of the match that that was indeed the case. He just casts Thoughtseize seeing a hand that just misses an Infernal Tutor for the kill no matter what he takes. He takes a cantrip and passes. I find a Silence instead of a kill and use it during his upkeep. This actually happens another 2 times during the next 2 turns, using all 4 Silences. I then find the Infernal Tutor, go for Ad Nauseam and actually reveal Petal, Led, Infernal, Dark Ritual as the first 4 cards. I decide to keep going just to be able to Chant which I find some card draw and life loss later.

1-0-0

Jelle was sitting next to me and won his match against Goblins. Wim lost against Merfolk. I go and look around a bit and see Baptist overlooking a match while trading. I notice a Daze in his map which I want. I have 4 Dazes but I managed to use one for a proxy so now it has Wonder, 3U, Flying 2/2 written all over the back. He hands it to me and I ask what he wants for it. He sais I can buy him a drink later but it's for free if I get into top8. It's on! Forget winning Duallands, it's all about a free Daze now.

Baptist also had a Bye so he counted the decks. There where 9 Vengevines and 9 Stormcombo followed by 5 Goblin players and 3 Merfolk players.

Round2:
I sit down against an opponent I don't know so he's probably not a regular Legacy player or just a bad one.

Game1:
He opens with Swamp Duress. To me this gives me 2 signs. The first one is the deck, it's either The Gate or Eva Green meaning that it'll run Wasteland, Sinkhole and Hymn and possibly Fearie Macabre that I need to think about with my plays. But what it tells me the most is that he didn't have Thoughtseizes so no extra discard from the sideboard. He sees my hand and sighs that he has to play against stormcombo. I make his fears true a few turns later after rebuilding my hand into a turn4 Ad Nauseam at 18. Some reveals later I hit the Infernal I need and kill him.

I sideboard in 4 Bouncespells and 1 SDT for 3 Silence and 2 Chant.

Game2:
He opens with Duress taking my Chain of Vapor and drops Chalice for 0. I play SDT and pass the turn. He drops Chalice at 1. I need to find an Echoing Truth but I'm not under any pressure. I use Infernal Tutor for a reshuffle revealing Infernal Tutor getting another Infernal Tutor and he wonders what's going on. He reads the card and then gets it. He finally gets a Tombstalker to put pressure and I scoop 3 turns later after not finding Echoing Truth.

Game3:
I open with Chant, Chrome Mox, Brainstorm, 3 land. I mulligan. I get a no lander with a Chant again. 5 cards are Chant, Chrome Mox, 3 land. 4 cards it shall be! I jokingly say that land, Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam will do. I draw my first card, Scalding Tarn. Second card, Dark Ritual. Third card, Dark Ritual. Fouth card! That frigging Chant again. I obviously keep, run the Scalding Tarn and pass. He just drops Chalice and passes the turn. I draw Underground Sea but keep it in hand to avoid Wasteland or Sinkhole. He plays Mishra's Factory. I draw Preordain, drop Sea to play it and see Ad Nauseam, Scalding Tarn.
I can draw the Ad Nauseam, pass the turn and go for it during his turn but with no pressure from his side I don't feel the need for it which might be wrong from me since he can draw a second Chalice shutting me out. I draw the Scalding Tarn and pass. He drops a second Factory and attacks for 3. I draw Ad Nauseam, drop land and pass. He plays a land and hits for 4. I cast Ad Nauseam at 13 life. I find Echoing Truth, 2 Chain of Vapor, Infernal Tutor, Ritual, LED, LED, Petal, Petal and some cantrips. I fetch twice, Echoing Truth Chalice and untap for my turn. I then cast the 4 artifacts, Chain of Vapor both floating 2 mana, play land, replay 2 petals to Chain both again, cast 4 artifacts, Infernal and win the game. The Chains wasn't for being fancy, just necesarry to have enough storm without having to use IGG.

2-0-0.

Jelle lost against Goblins. I never asked Wim what he did. I grab something to drink, watch Baptist drawing with Vengevine Survival against CB control build to beat Vengevine.

Round3:
I'm paired against Daan. He beat Jelle last game. He always plays Goblins so has some experience with it.

Game1:
He opens with Mountain Lackey. I said it before and I'll say it again, that card is broken!
I use some cantrip but can't find an Infernal Tutor. He attacks, drops a Ringleader into play and finds another Lackey which he casts with 2 Incinerators. I use double Cantrip but still don't find the kill. He drops Warchief and attacks for a bunch, dropping a next turn kill. I find nothing and lose game1 against Goblins.

Out go 3 Silence and a Chant, in come the 4 bounce.

Game2:
He mulligans to 6. I open with Ponder, find Dark Ritual a, Petal and pass the turn. He drops Mountain Lackey and I have the turn2 kill with Petal, LED, Ritual, Petal, Infernal to IGG and win.

Game3:
I open with Ponder again but have to shuffle this time. He gets Mountain lackey for the third time. I draw Dark ritual and play a land, he attacks, drops Warchief and Skirk Prospector after some thinking. I guess that he'll go for the next turn kill. I Brainstorm during my turn, put back a land and a Chrome Mox. Keeping Ritual, Ritual, Chain of Vapor, Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor. He plays Mogg War Marshall, gets 3 mana, uses it for Matron, casts 2 Piledrivers to which I bounce his Warchief and I get hit for 2. I untap and draw Echoing Truth. Drop it under Chrome Mox, Infernal for Dark Ritual, Rit, Rit, Rit Infernal for Ad Nauseam and I win the game after a few flips. Not even close to dying from it.

3-0-0

That free Daze is so close now, just one more win. I get paired against Cedric so another Storm mirror. But the judge calls that there was a wrong entry result and we will be repaired. A few minutes waiting due to the printer being really slow, 46 seconds for a single page. I get repaired against Cedric once more. It turns out though that there is another issue. WER managed to re-enter a player who dropped during round2, was fine in round3 but suddenly was there in round4. They couldn't manage to drop him so they repaired manually, keeping the dropped person as a bye.

Round4:
I get paired against Xavier who I saw playing last round against Stormcombo. All I saw was that he played Survival Vengevine and had an Ethersworn Canonist in play with Bayou and an Extirpate in hand.

Game1:
He keeps and drops a land. I fetch to Island, play SDT which gets a Spell Pierce. He just drops another land. I keep cantripping building my hand while he doesn't get much action. I eventually Chant him which gets countered, Silence him which resolves and win through IGG.

I side in Tropical, 4 Swarm, 4 Bounce for 3 Silence, Underground Sea, 2 Cabal Ritual, 2 SDT and a Chrome Mox.

Game2:
He opens with Noble Hierarch and passes the turn. I don't drop my Xantid yet, wanting to play around Daze and just cantrip. He Brainstorms, fetches, drops another Hierarch and hits me for 2. I then drop the Xantid, cantrip and pass the turn. I don't have the kill in hand though. He just attacks for 2 and passes. I attack and he flashes in Aven Mindcensor. I let it die and cast Brainstorm, place a land on top so that a fetch will find it in the top4.
He drops a Vengevine and attacks for 6. I'm actually at 8 at this point and need to go for it with him holding one card. I echoing Truth the Aven since he only has 2 mana, some mana, LED and the Infernal resolves aking me think a while about what to get. He has one card and a Brainstorm in the graveyard. He can have a Force in han, have a blue card in hand and hit the Force with Brainstorm or just hit Force + blue card with Brainstorm. But Ad Nauseam at 8 life is risky at well. I have 2 mana remaining but want it to play around Spell Pierce. I decide that IGG holds less risk than the Ad Nauseam and he shows me his last card, Fearie Macabre. Beaten by 2 one offs.

Game3:
I open land, Ponder, pass the turn. He opens with land and passes. I drop a land, Brainstorm, fetch and Preordain. He drops his second land, fetches and drops Survival. This is the time for me to go as next turn will give him hate. I Chant which gets countered, Silence resolves, Brainstorm putting Ad Nauseam on top. Drop double LED, play Ponder cracking LED's, Ad Nauseam and win the game quite easy from that point.

4-0-0

There are 4 people with a 4-0-0 record which will be locks for top8. Me, Cedric, Remi and Johan Kennes. I play AnT, Cedric and Remi play 3 color TES and Johan Kennes plays UWBG Landstill.

Round5:
ID
4-0-1

I walk around a bit, talk to people and go to watch Jelle's match which is in time now. He is playign against monowhite control that's not Quinn. There's a Humility and a Moat in play. Jelle doesn't see the option of getting Wonder with Survival, discard it and have 1/1 flyings. It's Timestamp rule so they will have flying if the Wonder goes to graveyard after the Humility is in play. This draw puts Jelle at 2-1-2.
There are actually a bunch of people with draws forcing the people with 12 points to play it out which gives me a great chance to scout their decks.

Round6:
ID
4-0-2

The 4-1 bracket matchups is showcasing Merfolk vs Storm, Dark Horizons against Vengevine Survival, UB Ooze combo with S&T/Emrakul side against RGW Slivers and there's one 12 downpaired to a 10 also being Merfolk against Storm.

Jelle eventually ends at 2-2-2, Wim at 3-3.

Top8 is quite unusual, there are 3 people with 5-1-0, 4 with 4-0-2 and only one 4-1-1 player sneaks into top8.
Top8:
Tim Steurs - Merfolk
Mathijs De Vries - RGW Slivers
Bart De Duytsche - Merfolk
Rémi Dirickx - URB TES
Johan Kennes - UWBG Landstill
Cedric Moulin - URB TES
Me - UWB AnT
Jeroen Schaffhausen - Dark Horizons

It's cross pairings so:
Dark Horizons - Merfolk
Slivers - AnT
Merfolk - TES
Landstill - TES

Quarterfinals:

Game1:
I mulligan to 5 and open with Tundra into Ponder. He drops a Vial and I pause, he asks if it resolves and I tell him that I'm thinking as he's obviously putting me on a wrong deck. I untap, play Brainstorm, fetch, Preordain. He drops a second Vial and asks if it resolves again, yeah sure, whatever. I untap, cantrip some more and pass the turn. A Vial at 1, at 2 and 3 mana gives him Virulent Sliver, Hasty Sliver and Sinew Sliver. It hits me for 6 and I ask if I have 6 poison to which he replies it has Poisonous 1 so it gives 3 poison. It's even worse than I thought! I untap,Chant, Ritual, Ritual, LED, Infernal, IGG. Was fun playing!

I side in the 4 Bounce for 4 Chant effects.

Game2:
I keep my 7. He drops a Needle turn1 naming LED. I just say fine, knowing good enough that he isn't performing an illegal action as he can name LED. I use Preordain to find myself a LED, coincidence? He drops a Virulent Sliver and passes. A friend of his passes by after he went to get drinks, notices the Needle and asks 'What's the Needle on? LED?'. I reply with yes to which he smiles. I still don't know if he knew it didn't work or if he just think that's great for his friend. I use more cantrips and build a next turn kill. He casts nothing and attacks for 1, giving me one poison. I untap, cast LED, LED to which his friend smiles again. I then cast Petal, Chain of Vapor and this time his friend goes 'oooh'. So I assume he thinks I'll get rid of the Needle that way. Bounce my three artifacts, recast them, cast Infernal cracking the LED's and then explaining that LED is a mana ability and it won't be stopped by Needle. Get Infernal then Tendrils for lethal.

I wish him luck with his future tournaments. I check out which bracket I'm in then go and look at that match. it's Merfolk - Dark Horizons with Dark Horizons leading 1-0. Looking at the board there where no Merfolk, a single Engineered Plague and a second just being cast. As he grabs his sideboard to deside I can get a look and see that he runs 3 Duress and 3 Extirpate that could be brought in. So that and the 4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Gerard's Verdict is what he will have to stop me.

The judge Niels Viane informs me that my Semifinals opponent would like to split top4. I say I think about it but doubt I will. The other matchups are both in favor of Stormcombo making the top4 Stormcombo mirror and me against Dark Horizons. The other 2 stormcombo players also want to split but I want to play so we play it out. They are both members of team Gent and I tell them that they can just split between themselves no matter who gets to the finals. So they do that and play for who gets the right for a chance at the title.

Semifinals:

Game1:
He opens with Thoughtseize, taking my Brainstorm from 2 land, SDT, Brainstorm, Chant, Led, Petal. I play fetch to an Island and cast SDT. He plays Hymn and misses the land and the LED. I use SDT, find a Dark Ritual and play a land. He drops a Wasteland and plays another Hymn, taking the Ritual and the Chant. I find another LED with SDT and now there's a 3/4 goyf from his end alongside an SDT. I grab another fetch from the top of my library, play it ending my turn shortly thereafter. He finds another Wasteland, switches SDT, fetches and plays another Hymn. He manages to miss the 2 LED's which is now the remainder of my shredded hand.
I draw a Petal and pass the turn. He casts a Gerard's Verdict. I want to switch SDT to which he wastelands a fetch. I fetch and use the Tundra to look at the top3 again. The switch resolves and I discard everything but the 2 LED's. I drop SDT and think about just dropping down the LED's but with him running Vindicate and already played 5 discard I guess I'm safe for now. Goyf hits me to lethal next turn so I need to find an Infernal Tutor. He Wastelands the Tundra and then casts his 4th Hymn to get rid of my two last cards. Not bad.
I sideboard in 2 SDT, 2 Doomsday, 1 Meditate for 5 Chant effects knowing that he won't have permanent hate.

Game2:
I open the following hand: Tundra, Petal, LED, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, Ponder, Doomsday. I love you Doomsday! I recount just to be sure, cast Petal, Ritual, Doomsday for Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, Tendrils. I pause, recheck the pile, going through it in my mind. I realise the LED's need to be Ritual's, switch them and follow it up with LED, Ponder cracking LED for UUU, Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit Tendrils. This is better than 6 discard spells right?

Game3:
I keep a very sloppy hand of Chrome Mox, Brainstorm, Preordain, Preordain, Ponder, Petal, Ad Nauseam. My reasoning was that he can't wasteland the Chrome Mox and they the 3 remaining cantrips should find me enough gas to cast Ad Nauseam. What I did forget is that he is on the play with 7 one mana discard spells and can just take the Chrome Mox which is exactly what happens. He also casts Mox Diamond, SDT. I draw Dark Ritual. He uses SDT, fetches to a Savannah and plays Tarmogoyf. I draw SDT which I discard for the turn. He plays Gerard's Verdict to which I discard the Brainstorm and Preordain. I thought about not discarding an instant to keep the Goyf smaller but the other 2 cantrips are just better without a fetch effect. I draw a blank the turn after.
He hits me to 12 with Tarmogoyf and taps out to cast Knight of the Reliquary. I draw a fetchland which I use and cast Preordain. My logic was that Ponder was worse as one good card and two bad cards forced me to draw one of them the turn after. But actually the same is true with Preordain unless the good card is the third down. But I hit a Dark Ritual which allows me to cast Ad Nauseam at 11 life. I fall down to 3 life with Petal, Infernal Tutor, LED, LED as the relevant reveals. I already revealed a Meditate so there are 4 cards that will kill me and 6 outs remaining in the deck. I have 35 cards left. I could also go for Petal, LED, LED Ponder and hope to hit one of the three Infernals, Tendrils or IGG. I flip hitting a land followed by a Chrome Mox. I got there!

Roel asks me if I would've gone for it if he didn't tap out which I would've. I didn't really have a choice anyway.

Finals:
Finally, the finals. This is what it all comes down to, one more match to win. Stormcombo mirror!
We decide to split but play it out for the title.
He wins the die roll. I joke that I only won one die roll today, against Slivers. Seems that the pressure for me is less than before as I couldn't control my nerves during the semifinals.

Game1:
He opens with land, Ponder. I draw a card and play land Petal, passing the turn. The Petal is there to keep open Brainstorm into a Chant effect but also to cast Brainstorm hiding Ad Nauseam with LED above from a discard effect. This is what happens and all he sees is a hand with land, 3 Cantrips and irrelevant card. He takes one and passes the turn. I play LED, Brainstorm and crack LED then casting Ad Nauseam. I win game1 from this.
I side in the Silence, 1 SDT for 2 Cabal Ritual.

Game2:
He opens with land Duress and sees Brainstorm, Petal, some cantrips and some other cards but no chant so he decides to take the petal. I untap and draw my card for the turn. I think about his take, realizing that he is planning on going for it next turn. I play Brainstorm which is the only way I can stop it by hitting Petal + Chant but I don't. He casts Ad Nauseam, falls low but gets there with Double Rite, Double Burning Wish and LED.

Game3:
I open the nuts with Ponder, Ponder, Petal, Petal, LED, LED, Infernal Tutor. I say I keep as does he. I just lay down my cards asking if it's enough? He thinks about it to which I say that I'll just go for IGG then Tendrils. He sais sure if I show the IGG and the Tendrils in the deck. I do so winning the last match of the day.

I take my winnings of 2 Tundra, 2 Volcanic Island, 2 Tropical Island, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Bayou, 2 Taiga, saying farewell to a bunch of people and head off to find something to eat.

Me, Jelle and Wim decide to go to the Pizza Hut. When we arrive there we get informed by a waitress that it closes in 15 minutes so we can only get take away. We still need to pass by JelleF to give him some cards he needs for Worlds so we just decide to go and eat french fries there then. A great ending to a great day.

Thought on deck:
The only cards I'm dissatisifed with are the Doomsdays and the Meditate. There's barely any matchup where I want them in. Normally it should be against heavy discard decks or slow decks. The problem with Heavy discard is that they are still running Extirpate and it screws up piles randomly. Slow decks just don't exist these days either. Normally you side in Doomsday and Emrakul against Counterbalance but the meta isn't friendly towards Counterbalance so why even waste slots for that. They need to go for something else.

I'm satisfied over running Chant effects instead of discard for the mirror. It also allows to go through IGG way more than discard ever could. The downside is that you run three colors instead of two but now that most Vengevine lists are running Spell Pierce over Stifle it's not such a big deal. The extra Silence in the sideboard is usefull but might not be necesarry. Stormcombo runs Xantid Swarm and if they bring those in it blanks your chants. I've got a new sideboard card in mind to win the mirror easily but the problem is that once that trick is used it won't be effective anymore so I won't spoil it yet.

I also noticed that I usually sideboard uit Cabal Ritual. I think I brought them back in once when I was on the play but I can't recall which match that was. But I can't think of another decent card to run maindeck over Cabal.

PanderAlexander
12-06-2010, 05:48 PM
I take my winnings of 2 Tundra, 2 Volcanic Island, 2 Tropical Island, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Bayou, 2 Taiga

NICE prize for 1st, congrats.

citanul
12-06-2010, 05:58 PM
It's the split prize. First place was 4 Underground Sea, 4 Tropical Island, 4 Tundra with second place getting 4 Volcanic Island, 4 Bayou, 4 Taiga.

Tammit67
12-06-2010, 06:47 PM
Any chance of getting this moved to the Tournament Reports forum?

Regardless, congrats! Looks like a very fine deck

citanul
12-06-2010, 06:54 PM
Any chance of getting this moved to the Tournament Reports forum?

Regardless, congrats! Looks like a very fine deck


Oops, been a while since I posted a report here and totally forgot that they split it up in seperate sections. Terribly sorry about that.

Thanks.

Gocho
12-07-2010, 04:39 AM
Congratulations and thanks for a nice and detailed report.

I like to see that a standard ANT list (UGW) gains big tournaments again.
I must sleeve it :)

DerFern
12-07-2010, 06:03 AM
standard ANT list (UGW)
:eyebrow:

Anyway; I´ve been there, too. It was a nice tourney with way too few people showing up, but I guess that was due to the weather. We had a nice 2 hours trip from germany and it was a great atmosphere. Thanks for this! A friend of mine and me both had a shot at Top8 but threw it away in the same round. Seems like DDFT has NOT been the right choice there...

Citanul: Congrats on the finish! Nice to have a first turn kill in the finals. You should have made a photo of your hand like the french guy did one year ago... ;)

practical joke
12-07-2010, 06:24 AM
Lack of mobility prevented our team from going there.

congrats on your win!

Seems like a very heavy meta-gamed decklist that worked out fine.

Gocho
12-07-2010, 12:37 PM
:eyebrow:


With 'standard' I mean the old usual ANT lists, not the Type2 ones.

DerFern
12-07-2010, 12:59 PM
With 'standard' I mean the old usual ANT lists, not the Type2 ones.
With :eyebrow: I mean UGW?

Piceli89
12-07-2010, 03:33 PM
UBW(g), we've understood it.


Aren't 14 cantrips too much? Also, I think Sensei's Divining Top is just too slow these days in ANT. It's good against blue aggro-control (perhaps except Merfolk) and CB, but against Survival and fast tiers it is just too slow for the current configuration. Not netting a card immediately may cost games.
I also think We need tutor 5-6 to be able to not lose sometimes to not drawing Infernal Tutor or drawing Ad Nauseam as the bomb while being already at 10-12 against aggro.

Piceli89
12-07-2010, 03:33 PM
UBW(g), we've understood it.


Aren't 14 cantrips too much? Also, I think Sensei's Divining Top is just too slow these days in ANT. It's good against blue aggro-control (perhaps except Merfolk) and CB, but against Survival and fast tiers it is just too slow for the current configuration. Not netting a card immediately may cost games.
I also think We need tutor 5-6 to be able to not lose sometimes to not drawing Infernal Tutor or drawing Ad Nauseam as the bomb while being already at 10-12 against aggro.

citanul
12-07-2010, 05:51 PM
Aren't 14 cantrips too much? Also, I think Sensei's Divining Top is just too slow these days in ANT.


I metagamed the deck to win the Combo mirror which is what they are for. The added effect of increasing my matchup against slower decks is just an extra benefit. SDT is also great against fast decks that made themselves slower during game2 and 3 to have hate or mulliganed to find this hate. In general I don't feel that the 2 SDT and thus 14 cantrips are too much.



I also think We need tutor 5-6 to be able to not lose sometimes to not drawing Infernal Tutor or drawing Ad Nauseam as the bomb while being already at 10-12 against aggro.

It would force me to run a 4th colour or cut Chant effects for Discard effects. Me running Chant effects instead of Discard effects is just what made my deck different and probably got me there. Against Agro Control you also want Chants instead of Discard because you can go through IGG this way and not be forced to use Ad Nauseam.
I don't have that much test data to say anything about the difference between 4 and 6 tutors.

Gocho
12-07-2010, 06:04 PM
With :eyebrow: I mean UGW?

I hate this netbook Keyboard. The B Key is near the G.

Sorry xD

Pulp_Fiction
12-07-2010, 09:48 PM
:eyebrow:

Anyway; I´ve been there, too. It was a nice tourney with way too few people showing up, but I guess that was due to the weather. We had a nice 2 hours trip from germany and it was a great atmosphere. Thanks for this! A friend of mine and me both had a shot at Top8 but threw it away in the same round. Seems like DDFT has NOT been the right choice there...

Citanul: Congrats on the finish! Nice to have a first turn kill in the finals. You should have made a photo of your hand like the french guy did one year ago... ;)

What DDFt list were u playing? Nothing with Daze and IU I hope.

DerFern
12-08-2010, 01:27 AM
What DDFt list were u playing? Nothing with Daze and IU I hope.
I did play it with Daze, but Meditate main since I expected quite a lot of Survival and with Meditate it is a whole lot easier to include Deathmark/Slaughter Pact/whatever into your pile. Ideas Unbound only was in the sideboard as a BWish target which worked quite good. The whole deck was UBrg, but I will switch it to UBwg for Chants...

jazzykat
12-08-2010, 05:55 AM
Congratulations on your finsih.
Congratulations on a great tournament report. I actually felt like I was inside your head, and even though I have played storm combo on and off since Tendrils was printed I still got some new insights into how to work through a difficult situation.

citanul
12-08-2010, 07:05 AM
Congratulations on a great tournament report. I actually felt like I was inside your head, and even though I have played storm combo on and off since Tendrils was printed I still got some new insights into how to work through a difficult situation.


Thanks for such a nice comment. I actually always wonder if my reports are decent enough to post. I know that I write them detailed but I need a lot of work on my sentence building which might make them boring. Just like last sentence, I find them to be too long.



I did play it with Daze, but Meditate main since I expected quite a lot of Survival and with Meditate it is a whole lot easier to include Deathmark/Slaughter Pact/whatever into your pile. Ideas Unbound only was in the sideboard as a BWish target which worked quite good. The whole deck was UBrg, but I will switch it to UBwg for Chants...


I think I saw you or your friend play and was rather surprised that people where having a go with Doomsday since it's not that common to be played by Dutch or Belgian people. Guess you being German explains it then. I still need to learn the IU piles before I take a swing at it.

lorddotm
12-08-2010, 08:12 AM
I still need to learn the IU piles before I take a swing at it.

IU isn't that great. Meditate allows you to go off with less, and doesn't cost UU.

If you need a board draw spell, Edge of Autumn into Meditate works very well.

NesretepNoj
12-08-2010, 11:05 AM
Awesome report and grats on the victory. I really enjoy in how much detail you describe your thoughts and decisions

nedleeds
12-08-2010, 12:12 PM
Great detail in the report.

Ban ... uh Vengevine ... err Survival ... err nevermind ...

Piceli89
12-08-2010, 02:22 PM
Citanul, two questions I was thinking about lately:

1) Why 1 Ad Nauseam and not two. You have 5 business spells on a total of 60 cards. If someone extirpates your Infernal tutor, you're pretty dead. Also, if you're willing to stick with one, wouldn't it be better to play only 2 Moxes? Easily a dead card that doesn't create threshold nor gives mana without making disadvantage, I always try to keep them the lower possible.

2) Why only 2 Cabal Rituals? You play 12 cantrips and 2 SDT and the chances it gets thresholded on turn 3 are really high. I understand that you expected to face a mirror metagame, but against Discard they're easily the best acceleration you could be hoping for, and they fuel Ad Nauseam and IGG loop very nicely. Ever thought to go up to 3?

3) Would you run 7 Chants or just a 4+3 Split with Duresses if you were to play in a varied meta? Chants make IGG better (and Ad Nauseam I'd dare to say) but they slow down the deck a bit. Also, they're almost dead against Dark Horizons and do not allow you to see Faerie Macabre coming. With all the Survival around still for 10 days, it's risky.

4) I'd try Confidant in the board, you have a super-low cmc, and potentially 16 cantrips. Also, you have a very low threat density. They're the best sb cards coming against discard decks, as they fill the spot replacing the lasst 3 Chants. I think you opened very good hands or cantripped very good reading your report, I have LOTS of problems finding the bomb with this new asset and some also run Lim Dul's Vault along 2 AdN and 4 IT because you don't want to spend 4 turns cantripping, the metagame is fast and you also have to face randomness like Show and Tell shit that may hamper you with a dumb Emrakul on turn 3.


Thanks if you'll answer.

citanul
12-08-2010, 03:22 PM
Citanul, two questions I was thinking about lately:


Don't you mean 3 questions and a statement about Confidants?



1) Why 1 Ad Nauseam and not two. You have 5 business spells on a total of 60 cards. If someone extirpates your Infernal tutor, you're pretty dead. Also, if you're willing to stick with one, wouldn't it be better to play only 2 Moxes? Easily a dead card that doesn't create threshold nor gives mana without making disadvantage, I always try to keep them the lower possible.


I never played with 2 Ad Nauseams before as I ran NLS before Mystical ban and I ran Doomsday as my storm deck after the ban. I then switched to Vengevine Survival, dropping a lot of the testing I did on Storm.
While it might be that I opened some nice hands I also mulliganed a lot of hands that had no business or was low on cantrips. The question you need to ask yourself is the following: Will I lose more games not finding a win condition or lose more by revealing Ad Nauseam to Ad Nauseam in this fast metagame. I can't answer this yet myself as I only played a limited amount of games which can be a statistical fluke. So far I haven't felt the need to run more kills and will be running this setup. When I notice that I lose to much due to this I will start running a 2nd Ad Nauseam.

So you'd cut a Chrome Mox for a Cabal Ritual. It makes your Ad Nauseam a bit worse though. 6 Instead of 7 initial mana sources and an extra 2cc card. As for Chrome Mox being a death card, this is true. I like them for getting an empty hand for Infernal or after Ad Nauseam. Running 14 cantrips does allow you to not draw them very often instead of in the opening hand. You probably won't miss the third Mox if you decide to cut it but I wouldn't cut it for a Cabal Ritual.



2) Why only 2 Cabal Rituals? You play 12 cantrips and 2 SDT and the chances it gets thresholded on turn 3 are really high. I understand that you expected to face a mirror metagame, but against Discard they're easily the best acceleration you could be hoping for, and they fuel Ad Nauseam and IGG loop very nicely. Ever thought to go up to 3?


I actually planned on running no Cabal Rituals but 2 maindeck bounce instead. I'm not a big fan of the card as you can see that I sideboard it out quite a lot. Not running 2 Ad Nauseam might be a factor in this decision as Cabal Ritual is a great mana source to cast our beloved win condition. The only reason I run two is to have the option to Infernal Tutor for a second if the situation arises as it has in NLS a few times.
So no I haven't thought about going up to 3. I wouldn't cut these 2 from the maindeck anymore though. They create better hand.



3) Would you run 7 Chants or just a 4+3 Split with Duresses if you were to play in a varied meta? Chants make IGG better (and Ad Nauseam I'd dare to say) but they slow down the deck a bit. Also, they're almost dead against Dark Horizons and do not allow you to see Faerie Macabre coming. With all the Survival around still for 10 days, it's risky.


I will always run Chants over Discard if my mana base allows it. There is one exception, if the metagame is Counterbalance and you still want to play stormcombo I'd run discard. It's personal preference and I understand if others prefer discard. I just have had bad experiences with it like playing Duress, giving the opponent one turn and they topdeck the card they need. The solution to this is running the Duress during the turn that you desire to go off. Isn't that when you cast your Chant anyway?
Both have their advantages. Chant gets past some hands that Discard doesn't such as Force, Force, blue card and allows the IGG loop more. Discard can be cast earlier, gives additional information, can disrupt the opponents game plan or take away hate after sideboarding. I have ran UB AnT about a year and a half ago but as soon as I switched to NLS I created a liking to Chants.



4) I'd try Confidant in the board, you have a super-low cmc, and potentially 16 cantrips. Also, you have a very low threat density. They're the best sb cards coming against discard decks, as they fill the spot replacing the lasst 3 Chants. I think you opened very good hands or cantripped very good reading your report, I have LOTS of problems finding the bomb with this new asset and some also run Lim Dul's Vault along 2 AdN and 4 IT because you don't want to spend 4 turns cantripping, the metagame is fast and you also have to face randomness like Show and Tell shit that may hamper you with a dumb Emrakul on turn 3.


Isn't Confidant quite bad in a fast metagame? While they are golden against slower decks, SDT creates the same advantage by card quality over card advantage. Running Confidant is quite appealing. It does come with a downside, once people know you run them they will keep in their removal and make your deck worse. So if you plan on doing this you'll need to variate on running them then not running until infinity to keep people guessing. For me this makes it a bad sideboard strategy.
Also, the only played decks with discard are forms of Rock, Gate or Eva Green. Even without Confidants you beat these decks so I don't see the need to use sideboard slots for this.



Thanks if you'll answer.


Anytime.

ivanpei
12-12-2010, 10:53 PM
Congrats on your result! I read through you're report in detail and you're play decisions are spot on and excellent. I also dislike the dday-hybrid in the side. I was just curious as to why you ran the meditate plan in the board and not the shelldock plan. I used to play the hybrid versions with dday in the board but dday was for shelldock. Reason being, you win if you resolve dday against slow control. I board in dday against countertop and slow blue control like landstill or prison like stax.

With meditate combo, you need to resolve dday and have the mana to cantrip into and cast meditate. Basically you need 6-7 mana. With shelldock combo, you resolve dday, draw into the shelldock and win the next turn. It costs less mana (BBB + U). Sometimes not having the cantrip is not relevant vs slower decks like counterbalance if you are not facing lethal in the next 2 turns. I understand that you are now exposed to wasteland, but you shouldn't be boarding dday in against stuff that run wasteland. Would like your opinion on your choice of meditate. Thanks!

Also very curious on the ooze/show and tell deck that you mentioned. Maybe you can help us guys on the U/B ooze thread with a list? Thanks!

citanul
12-13-2010, 04:49 AM
Would like your opinion on your choice of meditate.


Doomsday + Meditate is good against heavy discard. I wasn't satisfied with it in general though and only sideboarded them in during the semifinals. I would just not run any Doomsday anymore at the time being.
When the meta shifts, maybe after a banning of Vengevine/Survival to a more Counterbalance oriented metagame I will run Doomsday + Emrakul, which in my opinion is the only matchup it really shines in.

Due to the dominance of VV Survival I didn't expect a lot of Counterbalance decks so I didn't prepare for those. I prepared for the mirror and Survival Vengevine. This still doesn't explain why I added 2 Doomsday and a Meditate in the sideboard does it?
Well, when I was making my sideboard I was thinking about the last 3 slots. I felt that with 8 chants, 4 Swarm and 4 SDT my stormcombo mirror was good enough. 4 Swarm and then the Chants made VV Survival matchup good enough. I just looked through my binder of rares that I can play. Pact of Negation was there for a while but got the cut and I eventually just settled on running the 2 Doomsday and Meditate. There's no real reason behind it.



Also very curious on the ooze/show and tell deck that you mentioned. Maybe you can help us guys on the U/B ooze thread with a list?


Can't find a decklist from the guy. Will ask when I see him but this is what I saw:

DECKLIST:

LANDS:
4: misty rainforest
4: verdant catacombs
4: underground sea
1: island
1: swamp
1: ancient tomb

SPELLS:
4: reanimate
2: exhume
4: buried alive
4: brainstorm
3: ponder
4: personal tutor:
2: lim dul's vault
4: force of wil
3: daze
4: thoughtseize
4: dark ritual
4: lotus petal

CREAUTURES:
1: phyrexian devourer
1: triskelion
1: necrotic ooze


SIDEBOARD:
4: show and tell
4: emrakul, the aeons torn
4: duress
1: ponder
2: echoing truth

I'll keep looking for the exact decklist and post it in the correct thread when I find it.

Edit: Added full decklist.

Pltinum
12-14-2010, 04:46 AM
There already is a thread for that deck in the development section.

Non-survival ooze.

His deck is VERY simular.