SCG Talent Search - Yes We Cantrip

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Come and see the Cantrip Cartel while I examine a skill that is more important in Legacy than anywhere else: Playing your cantrips correctly.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20707_SCG_Talent_Search_Yes_We_Cantrip.html

Let me know what you think!

[lordofthepit]

I read this article earlier this morning. I enjoyed it a lot.

The concept may seem trivial, but I really enjoyed two other articles written on the subject (one I believe by Luis Scott-Vargas focusing specifically on Counterbalance decks and one by A.J. Sacher). Your article was every bit as insightful as the other two.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I thought the article was very well written.

And for the situations at the end I would do the following:

1: Island-> Ponder looking for an Infernal or AdN. You don't BS turn one because you'd need both Petal and Tutor/Adn to go off where as if you use it turn 2 you see the max # of cards and still have mana to go off.

2: Depends. G1 Definitely Island-> Preordain looking for either a Duress effect or Infernal/AdN. However, if I know they have Stifle, I fetch->Swamp just to do it safely as one turn loss with a hand that good is no biggie.

3: Tap Island->Brainstorm. Then it depends. If I put back 2 blanks then Preordain and the 2nd BS. If I put back good stuff then Ponder and go off.

[practical joke]

the first thing that annoyed the hell out of me was that you chose the ugliest whiteboarded brainstorm in existence = (

for the rest, well-written.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Happy you all like it! I'll give my own opinion on the examples tonight, that way others have a little more time to look at them unbiased. I like that I've seen different lines of play from everybody that has answered either here or on SCG. Seems like having an article like this makes sense :)

As to the Brainstorm-issue, I know, and for once I can say that isn't my doing. I had a nice, black-bordered Ice Age Brainstorm in there, and the images weren't as bunched up either. Not sure why the editor changed that. I already wrote an email so it should be fixed shortly, I hope.
/edit: Brainstorm has been leveled up already ;)

[Offler]

As a blue player I like to play all of those cards (or at least very similar cards). However at blue this is causing my opponent insane and me too.

Imagine your opponents with decks constructed without late game plan - all spells are 0,1 or 2 CMC. Such deck can play a card each turn, no matter whether goblin, elf, or lightning bolt. And such players like to argue "dont play such cards. It does nothing".

Such nonsense. However at powerlevel of some burning decks where every mana is transformed into damage each turn... Hard to argue in numbers. People just cannot count that any such cantrips can help to prevent large amounts of damage or lock the game...

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Sorry for the delay, couldn't get to the keyboard yesterday evening. This is how I see the matter:

Situation 1: He either has the turn 2 Gaddok Teeg and we lose or the only thing we're missing for the W is a tutor/Ad Nauseam. As such we're not interested in over all quality but are only looking for one particular effect, so the more cards we see the better. I'd go with turn 1 Preordain into turn 2 Brainstorm, Fetch, Ponder. By playing Ponder first we'd have a higher chance to hit a tutor of our first two Cantrips meaning we're more likely to win on two, but that seems unnecessary compared to the (also very slight) edge we gain if we Preordain before playing another cantrip (slightly higher chance to hit tutor because of scrying before Brainstorm).

Situation 2:
I'll cite Ari Lax's answer from the SCG-forums here, not need for me to reformulate it all: Turn 1 Preordain, then turn 2 depends. If I don't have a 3rd land or a blank in hand, I Ponder as I need to save the Delta to fetch black and don't want to have to expose Sea to Wasteland. If I have a 3rd land and a blank I Brainstorm into fetch Island to Ponder. If I have a blank and no 3rd land it depends on if they are applying pressure with their turn 2 or not. If they aren't I Ponder and slow roll, if they are I Brainstorm into Ponder off basics and assume I'll have one of the 14-15 other lands or a Petal.

There are only two minor remarks I'd like to make:
If I I don't have the third land and the pressure they have on 2 is a random 2-power Merfolk (no additional Mutavault, no LoA), I would probably just Brainstorm and, if I still don't have another land or Petal, slow-roll my Ponder into the next turn so that I can Fetch a Swamp.
Also, if my land is a Fetch in the case "blank + third land on turn 2 while they don't apply meaningful pressure", I'd probably Ponder, and play a Fetch, activate it if Ponder left two bad cards, otherwise wait with the activation until turn 3. On turn three, once I have a fresh library, I Brainstorm and shuffle the duds with the second Fetch, hopefully winning either this turn or next.

Also, Jeff, I don't think I'd Fetch Swamp here even if I know they play Stifle. I'd be far to intent on maximzing my Brainstorm with it, especially as I need to get around that Stifle at some point anyway. That might be a mistake on my part, though.

Situation 3:
Two main suggested lines of play (Preordain into Ponder into Brainstorm) and (Brainstorm into Preordain into Brainstorm/Ponder):

By going Preordain into Ponder into Brainstorm we make sure we see at least ten cards no matter what we hit:
If we don't find a U source, we go Preordain into Ponder into Brainstorm = 10 cards, if we still haven't found anything we can Brainstorm to see one more but are likely dead.
If we find a regular U-source with Preordain, we can then Brainstorm - Ponder - Brainstorm seeing 11 cards this turn. If we don't find a regular U-source until we Ponder, there's either everything we need in that Ponder or we have to shuffle that U-source away.
If we find a Fetch with Preordain, we're golden. We follow up with Brainstorm, Fetch, Ponder, Brainstorm, seeing up to 13 cards this turn. If we hit the Fetch of Ponder, it doesn't do us much good if there isn't at least one other card in the Ponder we want. We get to see between 10 and 11 cards this turn, depending on us hitting a land after Ponder.
The good thing about this line of play is that even if we don't find a land, we get to see at least ten cards this turn to find the necessary tutor.

With Brainstorm into Preordain, followed by Ponder or Brainstorm depending on what we find: If we go Brainstorm into Preordain, we have higher variance. Again the deciding point is if and when we hit a manasource:
If we find a Fetch in that first Brainstorm, we obviously go Fetch, Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm afterwards, seeing 13 cards this turn. If the fourth card down is a Fetch and we Preordain into it, we can now go Ponder into Fetch into Brainstom, allowing us to see up to 11 cards.
If we find a regular blue source of it or the Preordain, we follow Brainstorm with Preordain than Ponder, than Brainstorm, seeing 11 cards. If we don't find a mana in our top four cards, we're looking bad here. We can Ponder to see another four cards, but if the tutor we need isn't there (having seen 8 cards), we can now Brainstorm to have seen 11 cards this turn but need to hit an additional land/B-source of the Brainstorm, not only a Tutor - I'd therefore count this as 8 cards seen for the comparisons.

Starting of with Preordain is the safest play, whatever happens we get to dig through at least 10 cards to find that tutor. It's weakness is the fact that it devalues the Fetch we could find fourth from the top (as we'd only Ponder into it as compared to drawing it of Preordain in the other play) and that it supposes we can win if we cast only three of our cantrips (we might get into trouble with either storm or Infernal Tutor's hellbent).
The second play is more risky (you're a lot more likely to fizzle if you don't hit a land in you top four) but also allows us to optimize our hand slightly better than the first play if we do find a land rapidly enough. It also maximizes Fetchlands found in the Ponder better.
Over all, finding one of our five outs will be hard enough in ten cards that I would prioritize making sure I get to dig at least that deep over the potential gains from hitting the land in spite of the possible pay-off from starting with Brainstorm.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Also, Jeff, I don't think I'd Fetch Swamp here even if I know they play Stifle. I'd be far to intent on maximzing my Brainstorm with it, especially as I need to get around that Stifle at some point anyway. That might be a mistake on my part, though.

In Situation 1 I'd have to disagree with the use of Preordain first for the slight edge simply because you are playing AdN against a deck with a clock and burn. Winning fast is by far your best bet.

Other 2 Situations I pretty much agree although I was in the BS->Preordain and see camp for 3.

And finally, Stifle against an AdN deck is ONLY good on fetchlands. Any good player will realize that after the AdN resolves, you aren't going to get to use that Stifle in any meaningful way. So anytime I know I'm playing vs. Stifle I make sure to play as safe as possible to blank their cards.