No-Goyf Zoo

[Mr. Safety]

This is an experimental deck that came about due to my lack of Tarmogoyfs. I essentially did a ton of research and tried to find an equivalent 2 mana aggressive creature to fill in the rather large hole that was left without them. Initial card choices for Goyf subs were Keldon Marauders, Figure of Destiny, Elite Vanguard, Jotun Grunt, and Tattermunge Maniac. Most left me STILL susceptable to Engineered Explosives, and Chalice of the Void. The 1-drops didn't make sense, as I could just build a solid mono-red sligh list that wasn't susceptable to Wasteland. Jotun Grunt is fairly good in the format, but can be difficult to keep in the early game with a thin graveyard (sideboard tech vs. Dredge YES).

So I started to really dig into what I could do with Kavu Predator, which costs the same as Goyf but had the additional bonus of built in trample. The Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows combo was getting a lot of attention in extended before Time Spiral rotated out, and it seemed to be legacy worthy to me. The combo seemed really good, considering it is recurring creature removal/ damage and is resilient to counterspells. It also seemed 'harmless' enough that most decks wouldn't sideboard in graveyard hate. The gears started turning, and I initially tested Invigorate, which Berserk Stompy had been using for ages with Kavu Predator. The potential for bolstering my opponent's life total and losing 2 cards to a single Path to Exile/Smother, all the while NOT dealing damage, seemed too risky. Grove of the Burnwillows was resilient, causing a recurring grow each turn for simply activating it for mana to cast other spells like Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, and Lightning Bolt. It's a big target for Wasteland, but the benefit of it paying off outweighs the dangers, just like any duel land. So I searched for another piece to work with other than Invigorate, and I did a facepalm when I realized that Swords to Plowshares was not only the obvious missing piece, but something even a noob should have seen.

My 4-card synergy package was assembled with Kavu Predator, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, and Swords to Plowshares. What I really liked about the package was that 3 out of 4 of the cards work just fine without any supporting tech. Predator was a little weak for a legacy-level creature, but could still attack for 2. The only blank card without tech is Grove of the Burnwillows, as giving your opponent life is NOT the ideal way to fix your colors, especially with an aggro deck.

The rest of the deck built itself by filling in the traditional zoo slots with Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Sylvan Library, and Woolly Thoctar. Rancor was a nod to the fact that my creatures needed to be bigger to compete, and Rancor was a cheap and reusable way to do that. On paper, it looked good. In play, it did much better than I could ever have anticipated. What made it really function well was the 2-for-1 effects I could get out of some of the cards (Swords a dude, get Punishing Fire back/grow Kavu Predator) which isn't typical for zoo builds. Zoo is traditionally aggressive dudes and burn spells with a splash of utility. You could argue that Knight of the Reliquary is a utility land fetch/big dude, but in all honesty, it's there because it gets huge and attacks for big damage.

In some games, Kavu Predator eclipsed Tarmogoyf quickly. In other games, it just met the removal that Goyf traditionally does. What Kavu Predator does really well is break up a stalled mid-game with a draw of Grove or Swords. An active Grove/Fires combo could keep goblins, and sometimes fish, in check indefinately. Once 2 Fires were available, I could functionally do 3 damage each turn (give 1 life for the buyback, cast both for 4 damage) which also helped to break up stalled games. Again, it was resilient to counterspells as I would simply have it available in the graveyard again. The really funny situations involved my oponent's thinking that a late game Umezawa's Jitte would save them by padding their life total, when all it accomplished was to make Kavu Predator BIGGER and enable some Punishing Fire buybacks.

Here is the decklist I'm currently using. Keep in mind the opening statement: I don't own any Tarmogoyfs. Following the logic, I do not have alpha/beta duel lands either. Therefore, this is my list:

22 Creatures

4 x Wild Nacatl
4 x Kird Ape
4 x Loam Lion
4x Qasali Pridemage
4 x Kavu Predator
2 x Woolly Thoctar

Spells

4 x Swords to Plowshare
4 x Lightning Bolt
3 x Punishing Fire
3 x Rancor
1 x Sylvan Library
3 x Lightning Helix

Lands

4 x Arid Mesa
1 x Forest
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Mountain
1 x Plains
2 x Sacred Foundry
3 x Stomping Ground
2 x Temple Garden
1 x Treetop Village
1 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Grove of the Burnwillows


I encourage anyone to discuss the principles and viability of the deck. I am guessing that there is more than just ME out there looking to build a zoo deck, but do not own the elusive Tarmogoyf.

[lebarion]

Although I have Goyfs, I've been playing with Kavu Predator in Zoo for a while. I like it a lot, as he has good sinergy with other good cards (StP)/combos (Fires + Grove) in the deck, and is usually my most dangerous threat, mainly because of trample.

A (very doubtful) card that I found to be very good with Kavu Predator is Fiery Justice. Suddenly, your Kavu is 7/7 and opponent's battlefield is empty. I know the card is not so good on its own, but even then it is far from useless. I suggest you to try it and see if it fits your style.

As Kavu Predator, Knight of Reliquary and Goyf (in my own build) are very big threats, and Fiery Justice provides some card advantage, I prefer Steppe Lynx over Kird Ape to give me a fast start. I use 22 lands with 10 fetches to make it more reliable. The cat is also a good company to Knight of Reliquary, which is good to fetch Grove.

I'll not post my build here as it has Goyfs and I don't want to pollute the thread, but I hope you get my points.

[Mr. Safety]

I do get your points, and they are well recieved.

My experience so far with my particular deck has shown that Fiery Justice is just too expensive. Swords only costs W and Grove activates for free to make Predator grow. If I were to emphasize the grow portion of Kavu Predator (lets say against combo decks) then Invigorate becomes the card of choice, IMHO. Invigorate can give a Kird Ape +4/+4 while at the same time putting 3 counters on Predator. It can make for some combat trades that go highly in your favor.

Here is my reasoning for Loam Lion over Steppe Lynx: I don't feel I have enough fetchlands to make him work properly. I feel that a minimum of 8 fetchlands would be adequate for Steppe Lynx to be the powerhouse turn 1 threat. I'm honestly having a hard time squeezin in MORE fetches, simply because of the need of 3 Groves. I don't want to drop the basics (I'm already susceptable to wasteland) and the duel lands are better nuts-drawn then tutored, TBH, so a higher count sounds smart.

Just a thought: have you ever tried these cards in your builds?

Bloodbraid Elf
Congregation at Dawn
Qasali Ambusher


(btw, I see your tagline saying you are beating tarmogoyfs with pointy ears...elf combo? I use Elves Combo frequently, it's one of my favorite decks) :)

[D. Watta]

It's great to see a no-goyf zoo thread. I'll say this much about your deck: it looks decent, and I do believe the burnwillows//pnishing fire//predator idea has been "proven" outside of your own testing, so there is little I can say to the negative. For ideas on how to fully abuse Kavu Predator, check out the False Kavu thread, a B/W/G deck utilizing false cure and Kavu Predator. Not advocating the use of False Cure in this deck, but the play styles are interesting and it is a fun deck that also does not run goyf.

Now, I've been rolling w/ a no-goyf zoo deck myself for a long while. I don't make it to many tournaments, but the three i've played it at have yielded two first place finishes. Granted, the field is not very experienced, although when I sleeved up a similar list to what I am about to post for a tournament with much more experienced players utilizing a great range of decks from gobs to team america to dreadstill and back, I barely missed the finals. Secondly, I trounced the other zoo player, who was playing the more traditional R/G/W version w/ Goyf.

And that's the difference. I've long been an advocate for Dark Zoo. Many people dislike it because of stifle/waste effects, yet I was able to go 2-0 against the Team America player at the aforementioned tournament. And no doubts, this player is skilled. The idea is to simply work the right angles.

As I play Dark Zoo, that is, zoo + black for confidant and vindicates, my goyf replacement is Quirion Dryad. My list is frequently changing, sometimes mainboarding Jotun Grunts against Goyfs//Tombstalkers//Lands.dec, sometimes mainboarding Diabolic Edict if people like to play with NOPro or the like. Anyway, here is the list I am playing with right now:

4x Wild Nacatl
2x Figure of Destiny
2x Grim Lavamancer (This and a single Pridemage can be rotated out for Jotun Grunts)
2x Mother of Runes (This can be Isamaru or the like, but is typically good in securing your Dryads and Confidants)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Quirion Dryad (You don't really want four simply because the green count becomes too much suddenly)

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Helix
2x Swords to Plowshares (This is the slot that can be Diabolic Edict. StP now due to Vengevine//Madness)
3x Vindicate
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Technically a four cost, thus rounding out the mana curve. This slot can be experimented with to get more mileage out of Dryad)

4x Arid Mesa (MVP fetch. Your two most fetched lands will be Taiga, then Scrubland. Fetches that get both are very good.)
2x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Taiga (-1 , +1 Mountain if you like basics)
2x Plateau
2x Savannah (-1, +1 Plains)
2x Scrubland
1x Badlands
1x Bayou

The Quirion Dryad is, really, off the hook. I started using it after playing Dryad Gro in T1. The deck can provide for a more controlling strategy than most zoo decks what with the superior card advantage Confidant supplies. Life gain via Helix and Jitte is wonderful, and you can also add the Stoneforge Mystic//Basilisk collar if you like. I'd add an extra Lavamancer in that case.

Just watch out for Vampire Hexmages or bounce targeting your Dryad. Tidehollow Sculler is good in these situations.

-----------

There is another form of No-Goyf you can run that is something like 4c Fish. I won't add a full second Decklist, but it would utilize aether vials, ethersworn canonists, scullers, and jotun grunts instead of goyf.

That's all. Thanks for making this thread!

[Mr. Safety]

Wow, that sounds really good. I was staying away from Domain Zoo simply for the fact that Tempo and Staxx HOSES it with so many duel land requirements. Your idea of adding in Black, but NOT blue, sounds appealing to me. Bob (Dark Confidant) is good in basically ANY low-curve deck, and zoo is no exception. Vindicate is one of the most versatile pieces of tech you could possibly use, as it can hit lands, dudes, enchantments, AND artifacts...all the while sitting at 3 mana so it can have decent odds against CounterTop.

You bring up a great point, and I see a lot of parallels with these cards: Kavu Predator, Figure of Destiny, and Quirion Dryad. All of them have the potential to be just plain BIGGER than Goyf, but all of them have their own weakness, which is that they are susceptable to a huge tempo disadvantage. You don't lose card advantage, but you invest mana and then POW, removal takes them out. I see you included Mom (Mother of Runes) in your deck... and that brings me to another very important principle of the deck. That kind of protection provides a 'wall' of sorts to protect your big threats. She is also cheap to play at only W, making her a really decent turn 1-3 play.

The deck is NOT fast. Seriously, your chances of getting a turn 3-4 win are not really that great. You could get lucky and your opponent may get bad draws while you draw into a ton of 1 mana dudes and burn, but most likely you will often be playing a much more aggro/control style than just straight up aggro. Your comments about Ethersworn Canonist and Tidehollow Sculler resonate well with that kind of approach. Those cards for zoo are what Thorn of Amethyst/Winter Orb can do for fast decks like stompy, which is create a lopsided board position/card advantage situation you can easily take advantage of.

I'd like to open up some discussion about your choice of adding black, which is VERY appealing to me. Some minor changes that might be able to happen:

Maindeck
+3 Invigorate (-2 Woolly Thoctar, -1 Loam Lion)
+3 Mother of Runes (-3 Loam Lion)
+4 Dark Confidant (-3 Rancor, -1 Sylvan Library)

Sideboard
+3 Vindicate

-4 Lands
+2 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Swamp

You would essentially be playing RGWB aggro control at that point, getting card advantage from Bob and protection from Mom. Invigorate gets a lot less risky with Mom on the table, and she can make Kavu Predator unblockable. This has the potential to have some really big balls IMHO. I might even just look into playing Mom ANYWAYS, black splash or not.

Thoughts?

[D. Watta]

Thoughts, sure:

I definitely do not intend to win turns 3-4. That would be along the lines of a Zoo deck rolling with the likes of Fireblast, which I do not feel is quite as resilient. I see you want to play w/ the two basic swamps, and I understand that considering land hate, but if you can shell out for even the shock variants, the black lands only usually need to exist for the turn of casting your dark confidant. If he remains, which he likely does (you typically play him after you've exhausted your hand) he will lead to more land drops. Many times, this leads to players targeting your black mana sources which is a recurring misstep on their part.
I own a complete version of UG Madness and, through testing, found early on that a list of this type does very very well against that deck, particularly if you switch out the specified duals for a couple basics. This was before the idea that VV Survival was broken and have since been surprised by the numbers of people rolling over to it, but alas, that is another story.

The MoMs were a recent approach, the two ofs, and they were previously a third lavamancer and a singleton Isamaru as Isamaru, unlike any other one drop creature for zoo, requires no investment to still be an immediate 200% gain on the mana investment. This helps in situations when you need that single plains for that single Isamaru. Anyway, I can't stress how amazing Jotun Grunts can be against the right meta which, right now, seems to be much of the field (If you aren't playing w/ KotR or Goyf or Lavamancer, he's a great fish creature)

Which leads me to the next point: To remember that Goyf, while many times huge, has no secondary ability. A friend of mine, after I complained that they should ban goyf (This was when he was first out) and he explained that Bob is likely the superior card because of it's inherent ability. Look for fish type creatures if you can. Remember that Watchwolf was immediately replaced by Qasali Pridemage when it was printed. Etc...

[D. Watta]

Ha, posted too soon. There's some more to add: Perhaps the main reason I roll w/ the Quirion Dryad is because it fits into a typical Dark Zoo shell very easily. Your post of the Kavu Predator build demands a few more slots to be committed to the strategy, which by all means is decent, and you can seek some more information in other threads (at least there should be other threads) It should be under something like "Grove Level Zoo"

I didn't even notice you weren't running invigorate in your initial build. It's definitely a four-of. There are some really fun plays you can do, too, like invigorating while targeting their creature, then casting an StP targeting it. Of course, you do this when there is a Kavu out.

I don't want to send you looking for the list, so here's a rough list of what I remember I usually play when I'm playing my version of False Kavu. Definitely test it if you have Magic Workstation or something like it, or just proxies. Really, the cards to invest in that you do not already have listed in this are relatively cheap, assuming you proxy the land or something. Again, it's really a great idea to roll with this because it's a deck that gives you an idea of the absurd potential of Kavu Predator and is also a decklist that can sometimes win on the first turn (no shit)

4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Kavu Predator
4x Dark Confidant

2x Dark Ritual (Allows for the occasional first turn duress, false cure, then multiple free "burn" spells)
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Invigorate
4x False Cure (Read the text. If you have two resolved and cast a single Skyshroud Cutter, for instance, your opponent loses a net fifteen life)

4x Reverent Silence (Nuts in the current Survival happy field. Nuts against CBalance.)
4x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy

2x Pernicious Deed

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sensei's Divining Top (Which I forgot to mention is a great singleton for the Domain Zoo list I left above)

4x Lotus Petal

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
4x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Swamp
1x Forest

If you play multiplayer, the deck gets even better due to targetless spells like Reverent Silence and Skyshroud cutter. Ridiculous.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I've seen False Cure/Kavu Predator decks before. I like the synergy, I just always felt it failed if you didn't have a solid alternative plan. The deck basically relies on Bob + Top (which I woud add 2 more of...) to set you up to 'combo' out.

As far as Sensei's Divning Top in zoo, it works well, but is mana intensive to use especially considering you usually top out at 3 land or so (in your build with 22 land it's a LOT more feasible.) I'd rather just invest 2 mana into a Sylvan Library and essentially 'Top' every turn for free and have the option to pay an extra 4 life for cards that can win me the game. If you're using Bob, then Top is BY FAR superior, but if you can't spare the slots (like in my naya no-goyf list) then you need a 1-card deal like Sylvan Library. Just my honest opinion on that.

Yeah, the problem is that the False Kavu deck is insane against Survival and CounterTop...but can fail miserably against Fish and traditional Zoo if you don't draw into False Cure. A smart zoo player will sideboard Mindbreak Trap for the combo matchups, and you would then open yourself up to that bullet. I use Mindbreak Trap in almost every sideboard of every deck I use in legacy...the combo matchup is typically the hardest one to win with a traditional aggro or aggro/control approach. The life gain is an alternative cost to the cards, so the opposing player would gain life...and then hose your False Cure. Damn, you just got caught with your pants down, hahaha.

About Quirion Dryad: yeah, in a domain approach, it gets insane. It's a 'tag along' effect while you go about your normal business. Efficient as a 2 mana creature, too.

Probably the most interesting piece of teck you've mentioned so far is Tidehollow Sculler, which could really work in a deck like this. If you're presenting multiple threats, the chances of this guy sticking around are good (because they'll target your Wild Nacatl/Kavu Predator/Woolly Thoctar instead) so you essentially get a free Castigate along with a Grizzly Bears. They get better in multiples, too, so I wouldn't suggest running less than 4.

The cool part about what you mentioned about Dark Zoo is the coincidence that I have 1x Verdant Catacombs and 1x Marsh Flats to fix my mana. I would toss in some black duels (Overgrown Tomb and Blood Crypt) and maybe even work in Tribal Flames. Nothing stopping me from running some sneaky blue spells at that point, too...like Mana Leak.

[D. Watta]

Couldn't agree more: divining top can only be better than sylvan library in Domain or Tribal zoo. Somewhat similarly, Tribal flames is a superior chain lightning for the tribal version, but chain lightning remains the better of the two for domain as the one damage from revealing to bob is in exchange for three, while tribal flames is a 2 for 4.

If you want to play a counter, what do you think about either spell snare or spell pierce? Again, better w/ confidant and both give you outs to a multitude of threats.

Anyway, as far as the first list you posted: In spirit, I was thinking something like Brian Kibler's Rubin Zoo list tweaked for Legacy and Goyfless purposes. What he was rolling with was basically an extended big zoo utilizing Punishing Fire//Burnwillows.

I'm thinking something like this:

3x Figure of Destiny
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kavu Predator
4x Knight of the Reliquary


4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Punishing Fire
4x Invigorate
3x Fiery Justice


3x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
8x Fetches
5x Shock//Dual land



Something like that.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for that, it looks like a solid list for sure. If I were to run a 'Big Zoo variant', it would probably look something like this:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kavu Predator
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Woolly Thoctar

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Helix
3x Invigorate
3x Congregation at Dawn
2x Sensei's Divining Top

21 lands

In that list with 21 lands (or maybe tweaked to 22) you could essentially get 8 fetches in there and get Steppe Lynx into the mix, which would give you another fairly awesome threat.The Tops become much more useful when you plan on casting Bloodbraid Elf, and Congregation at Dawn can be DEVASTATING with Bloodbraid. You essentially ensure that you get Bloodbraid + Woolly Thoctar in almost every game. Congregation at Dawn can break up stalled games like nobody's business, too.

I still like the idea of running a few less lands (20-21) and utilizing Rancor to make my threats bigger. My focus was on a low-curve and 2-for-1 effects that aren't in typical zoo builds (I think I said that in an earlier post, too...)

Anyways, I like the ideas. I'm still a little doubtful about Invigorate, simply because it is ONLY good with Predator.

EDIT: I almost forgot! I've been playtesting my original list on MWS, and I've had some positive results so far. I have faced mostly homebrews (that's the reality of Magic Workstation) but I got lucky and hit Ichorid. Here are my results so far:

Game 1: I didn't see any Swords, so I couldn't exile Ichorid. I also made a VERY BIG play error by not playing Lightning Bolt on my own Loam Lion on turn 2...turn 3 he combo-ed and attacked with roughly 16+ zombies a-la-Bridge from Below.

Game 2: He started with DOUBLE Leyline of Sanctity in play post-board...and I hosed him hard. I had a creature heavy hand (lucky me!) and ended up getting 2 Predators on the board and a Woolly Thoctar. He attempted to dodge Grove of the Burnwillows by saying he can't be targeted. I told him to (nicely) Read The Effin' Card. Once he did, he scooped. I sideboard in 3x Tormod's Crypt, didn't see even 1, but won the game anyways. This gives me some positive hope that Ichorid/Dredge isn't as bad of a matchup as I thought.

Game 3: it got dropped due to a server failure; game got canceled. I was in good shape though, with a Swords in hand and 3 1-drop creatures. I'm wondering if only 1 Sylvan Library is enough, because in matchups like this, if I don't have hate, I'm dead in the water.

I wouldn't say anything conclusive about Ichorid ATM, but it looked promising.

I also faced a mono-black aggro deck (not Eva-Green, no goyfs) that hit me pretty hard. Again, I only got one game in because he dropped the session. He was using Abyssal Persecutor, which has surprisingly made very few appearances in legacy decks.

Game 1: We traded dudes/removals like CRAZY in the first 3-4 turns. I played a Wild Nacatl, Innocent Blood. He played Vampire Nighthawk, Swords to Plowshares. I played a Loam Lion, Gatekeeper of Malakar. I Bolted his Gatekeeper. Then Persecutor showed up and started kicking my ass. I was at -3 life at one point, the only thing keeping me from losing was the fact that he didn't draw a sac outlet. I conceded, he left. Bummer.

So on my mind are a few things:

1) How do I deal with Dredge? Pyroclasm is too slow, as most folks use Flame-Kin Zealot to enable haste. My only thoughts ATM are Tangle, Volcanic Fallout, and Moment's Peace. All of those cards have different uses against a variety against other decks. Fallout is great if landed early against Fish/Goblins, but Moment's Peace can likely win me the game against Dredge by dodging the attack damage and being able to flashback. Wait for them to mill themselves out at that point, or just race with dudes. Tangle keeps the dudes tapped, being a slightly superior Dredge weapon, giving me a turn in the damage race. Without flashback, it's a one shot deal though.

2) How do I deal with big evasive threats? I have 4x Swords in the maindeck, should I play some number of Path to Exile in my sideboard?

For reference, my current sideboard"

2x Vexing Shusher
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Gaddok Teeg
2x Burning-Tree Shaman
4x Jotun Grunt
2x Mindbreak Trap

[Mr. Safety]

So I've been playtesting an entirely new No-Goyf list. Here it is, and it's been working well:


4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Loam Lion
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Woolly Thoctar
2x Grim Lavamancer

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Char
4x Path to Exile
1x Sylvan Library

4x Arid Mesa
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
2x Sacred Foundry
3x Mountain
2x Plains
2x Forest
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Treetop Village


My only real conundrum now is whether or not to use Char or not. I could concievably use Fireblast x2, another Sylvan Library, and then finally Char/Shard Volley x1 for the last slot. With 21 lands, I'm not afraid of Fireblast or Shard Volley. They have the added bonus of immediately putting 2 cards (or 3 with Fireblast) into the graveyard for Grim Lavamancer to use.

[Mr. Safety]

Just curious if anyone else is trying to do the same thing...build a decent zoo list without Tarmogoyf or a/b duel lands.

[sco0ter]

I recently ordered 4 Punishing Fire/Kavu Predator/Groves and want to play around with them. I only play it in Casual though. Sounds at least good in theory, with Swords and maybe Nature's Claim in the mix.

[Mr. Safety]

It's fun for sure, definately include a playset of Swords to Plowshares.

[(nameless one)]

Has anyone tried adding Life from the Loam in the mix? I was helping a friend out with his budget Aggro Loam build build and most of the main cards run in your main looks the same..

[Mr. Safety]

What does Life from the Loam do, other than potenitally recover from Wasteland/Sinkhole? We aren't playing enough Horizon Canopy's to matter, and no cycle lands. In Aggro Loam, the synergy is so obvious with the cycle lands and Countryside Crusher/Knight of the Reliquary/Terravore. TBH, Aggro Loam is pretty well figured out. This discussion is more centered around the Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows/Kavu Predator package and how to weasel it in legacy.

Sylvan Library is just so much more powerful in the utilty role than Life from the Loam, IMHO.

I am slowly realizing that Punishing Fire may become obsolete soon. Two damage just isn't enough, even if it is repeatable. Grim Lavamancer is so much more efficient at the process than Grove/Fires. I'm open to more discussion, but I think Grove/Fires may be too weak for legacy.

[Mr. Safety]

Experiment is over...dead deck is dead, lol. Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows just don't cut it in legacy.

I'm going with a much more sligh version of zoo now, using Woolly Thoctar as my Goyf substitute.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Experiment is over...dead deck is dead, lol. Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows just don't cut it in legacy.

I'm going with a much more sligh version of zoo now, using Woolly Thoctar as my Goyf substitute.

I wouldn't say it isn't good enough for legacy. However, it is too slow for an aggressive deck like this. It does help slower control decks get a leg up on tribal decks.

Also, have you considered running more fetches and Steppe Lynx + Plated Geopede? It could work, but I'm not sure if Geopede is good enough.

[Sturtzilla]

22 Creatures

4 x Wild Nacatl
4 x Kird Ape
4 x Loam Lion
4 x Qasali Pridemage
4 x Kavu Predator
2 x Woolly Thoctar

Spells

4 x Swords to Plowshare
4 x Lightning Bolt
3 x Punishing Fire
3 x Rancor
1 x Sylvan Library
3 x Lightning Helix

Lands

4 x Arid Mesa
1 x Forest
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Mountain
1 x Plains
2 x Sacred Foundry
3 x Stomping Ground
2 x Temple Garden
1 x Treetop Village
1 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Grove of the Burnwillows



Greetings Again,

I like the thought of playing no goyf-zoo (I also do not own them). I think that there are a few substitutes for him. Another point worth noting, many decks use sideboard slots for goyf-oriented decks. Therefore playing something else equivalent might actually be a good change. I really like your original list, but there are a few things I would change. How do you feel about this? I slated in some original duals... I know you would probably opt for shock lands as your original list states. The major change would be the inclusion of Invigorate over Rancor. I also don't see Punishing Fire working in this build. I would stick to Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and your Invigorate tech. I think it could be really solid. I am not sure on the Wooly Thoctar. He is a solid frame, but he is very mana specific. Running 4 Kird Ape and 4 Loam Lion is a great low end but rather redundant. These might be better as something else (my thought would be possible as some Lavamancers). I will try it out and let you know.

Creatures 22

4 x Wild Nacatl
4 x Kird Ape
4 x Loam Lion
4 x Qasali Pridemage
4 x Kavu Predator
2 x Woolly Thoctar


Spells 18

4 x Swords to Plowshare
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Invigorate
2 x Sylvan Library
4 x Lightning Helix


Lands 20

4 x Arid Mesa
1 x Forest
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Mountain
1 x Plains
2 x Plateau
3 x Taiga
2 x Savannah
2 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Grove of the Burnwillows


Edit: What about -2 Thoctar, -1 Kird Ape, -1 Loam Lion: +4 Quirion Dryad? Not sure how I feel about that either. I will try them out.

[muscleb]

How about some more exalted, drop 4 lion/ape for Noble Hierarch and some KotR instead of the thoctar. I know those cars just mentioned and not exactly cheap, however they are not goyf pricerange.

[Sturtzilla]

With the small amount of testing that I have done, it has become apparent that there are a few notable issues with the first decklist I posted above.

1. Lands
Running enough Grove of the Burnwillows to support the life gain to make Kavu Predator worth playing takes away from the value of Wild Nacatl. Groves also don't help your overall plan of beatdown. I think the Groves, Kavu, and Invigorate can be really strong together, each piece is separately not very good on its own.

2. Mana Costs and Power
The build I have listed above has a really low overall curve and little late game power. It is fast and can get the job done, but late game it is a bit weak. I think a few ways to slove this could be the addition of Knight of the Reliquary and potentially Quirion Dryad. These cards have slightly better late game and are in the same cost range as other dudes in the deck.

3. Kavu/Invigorate
These are very good together but are poor when used separately. I would suggest removing these for something else.

I will continue to toy around with the deck. If I can come across something stable, I will post it.

[Mr. Safety]

Wow, some good comments. I'll try and take them on one at at time with what my personal thoughts are.

1) Quirion Dryad - the card is a classic underwhelimg play. I'm not saying it's terrible...but it isn't great either. I playtested this, and what it gave me was a 1/1 for 2 mana (bad in zoo) and after I played a spell, it became a Grizzly Bears. YUCK. Now, if I just threw out my spells like crazy without regard to timing/game state, it would get bigger faster. But I'm not going to play lousy for the chance at making Quirion Dryad bigger. I HATED playing it turn 2. I would much rather have dropped another Ape/Lion and have Path to Exile/Lightning Bolt mana open. This is the biggest reason for me playing the full 8 ape variants: they are cheap and consistent. Having 4 Nactals, 4 Apes, and 4 Lions means I'm going to have some serious gas in the early game. They only get better in multiples, as it diversifies your board position. It makes you a little susceptable to Engineered Explosives...but Steppe Lynx doesn't do anything to change that, it sits at the 1 mana slot, too. Its this same reason why I don't like Vinelasher Kudzu. It's situational in the same way Steppe Lynx is situational. It is most likely the best solution though if you have 10-12 fetchlands available to you.

2) Grove/Fires - it IS good enough for legacy, but not for an aggro deck. I've seen some interesting lists that use it with CounterTop, and that sounds GREAT. It's a much more control oriented combo. Predator could essentially be one of the 8-12 creatures in a list like that to act as a finisher (4x Goyf, 4x Predator, and then maybe 4 xWild Nacatl/ Noble Hierarch maybe?) Grove/Fires gives you some late game direct damage recurrance, but it is inferior to Grim Lavamancer, who just converts your graveyard into Shocks without worrying about giving any life to your opponent. As Sturtzilla says too, Groves water down the effectiveness of Nacatl (and in my case the apes.) I've had opening hands that had a plains and Grove...which sets up any card in hand, but gives life in order to get even the early game going. Grove isn't fetchable either (without teck) which makes it bad as well, meaning you need 4 to make it work.

3) Predator/Invigorate - this works BIG TIME in Berserk Stompy, because you can trade (or even come out on top of) battle situations with bigger creatures. Berserk doubles up a creatures power post-Invigorate, turning the thing into an insanely powerful play. It's good on any creature, but especially good on Predator. This is the difference: you need cards that are good ON THEIR OWN in order to make them more acceptable in other situations. Berserk makes it happen, but in zoo, meh, we don't really want to play Berserk do we?

For these reasons, I've switched over to a much more conventional zoo list. I'm playtesting with 4x Woolly Thoctar, but I have a feeling that more burn is probably a better way to go. Here is another list of potential 2 mana threats I could use:

Keldon Marauders
Watchwolf
Scab-Clan Mauler
Horned Kavu
Vinelasher Kudzu


I could also work the deck in a much more sligh-oriented build by adding more 1 mana creatures like these along with Rancor to help push damage through and make decent sized threats:

Tattermunge Maniac
Elite Vanguard
Savannah Lions
Figure of Destiny


The last option is to just pile in the burn, using some # of these:

Shard Volley
Fireblast
Char
Incinerate
Burst Lightning


Don't get me wrong, I loved the Predator Zoo setup...it just didn't work as good as I wanted it to, that's all. If anyone else has a breakthrough and figures out the right teck to make it work, I'm totally open to it.

I just saw a spoiled card that's a 3/1 creature for 1W that gives battle cry (+1/+0 to each other attacking creature) that makes my Loam Lions and Kird Apes really happy...

NOTE: Some may wonder why I didn't play Grim Lavamancer alongside Grove/Fires...I didn't want to remove my Fires, I wanted them available. Ditto on Jotun Grunt, it works awesome against dredge when you can target your opponent, but in the off-hand situation where you need to hose your own graveyard to keep him, well, it couldn't be sustained; ie I'd rather use Grim to throw 2 damage around. Still curious about it though, because he's a 4/4 for 1W.

[Mr. Safety]

My current list:

4x Wild Nacatl
4x Kird Ape
4x Loam Lion
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Woolly Thoctar
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
3x Shard Volley
2x Burst Lightning
2x Sylvan Library
21x Lands

It has been doing well...but it has the same weakness as Burn/Sligh: Chalice of the Void. CURSE YOU CHALICE!!! I definately need Ancient Grudge in the sideboard for that matchup.

[sco0ter]

Hiho. The cards I ordered arrived and I played a similar deck with the following core setup in my casual round.


4x Kavu Predator
4x Punishing Fire
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Nature's Claim
4x Grove of the Burnwillows


Unfortunately the synergies were considered too powerful for my round :-P

I played with 4 Noble Hierarch, 2 Qasali Pridemage and 4 Spawnwrithe and found out, that Spawnwrithe is really powerful combined with Exalted and Removal spells and especially when casted turn 2. It always said: Counter me or remove me NOW, otherwise you are in big trouble.

Some other theoretic untested considerations I thought about:

Swords to Plowshares is bad in very aggressive Zoo decks. In general all the life gain for the opponent in this deck is bad for an aggressive approach. That's why Zoo usually play Path to Exile. Therefore I don't like aggressive 1st turn drops like Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl in a deck like this (which wants to play StP because it is just so good with Kavu), because the life gain negates their purpose and they don't get their job finished in time. Instead I'd prefer accelerating into good 3 mana threats.
For the same reason I don't like Invigorate in this deck, because of its card disadvantage.

Oust might be very good, if you want more removal or instead of the Nature's Claim.

Also, the Punishing Fire engine becomes only good, if you have some time and mana.

Therefore I think the right direction would be to accelerate into big threats (3-5 Mana) and aim to win the game in the midgame. Kind of like a Big Zoo or Aggro Loam deck.


EDIT:
Oh and Grim Lavamancer vs Punishing Fire/Grove:
I thought about it too, since they are similar, but the good thing about Fire is, that it really recurs. Grim Lavamancer can be dealt with and then it's gone forever. Grove/Fire is rather a hard to deal with engine. It's like Life from the Loam (Fire) vs. Tilling Treefolk (Lavamancer). Obv. Lavamancer is still better than Treefolk, but once it's gone, it's gone.

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed...I think a Three Deuce sort of setup would be strong for Grove/Fires...something that used eary mana denial (Wasteland, Lava Blister alongg with mid-game mana denial like Dwarven Miner and Molten Rain coupled with Kavu Predator for beats, Weathered Wayfarer for lands, Ethersworn Canonist for improving the combo matchup...here is a rough sketch:

4x Weathered Wayfarer
4x Kavu Predator
4x Dwarven Miner
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Ethersworn Canonist

4x Molten Rain
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Punishing Fire
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

3x Wasteland
4x Arid Mesa
2x Windswept Heath
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Taiga
3x Plateau