DCI update 12/20/10 - Survival banned; Time Spiral unbanned

[(nameless one)]

Survival of the Fittest is banned and Time Spiral is unbanned...

After all these talk, its confirmed. SotF is not fit enough for the format.

And after all the discussion about Earthcraft, Land Tax, Mind Twist and Mind's Desire; they still yet to see Legacy tabletops. However, would Time Spiral help Spring Tide get to the next level?

Discuss.

EDIT: for explanations: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/122l

I think that page also states why Land Tax will never be removed from the list:


There are other reasons some cards are banned; some cards cause logistic problems for tournament organizers running large tournaments. For example, some cards cause so many matches to run out of time that it can cause a strain on judging and tournament organization, and even force tournaments to finish outside of the normal tournament venue. We identify such cards by whether they actually caused such problems when they were tournament-legal


TIME SPIRAL WATCH: [all times -5 GMT]
$5.99 @ StarCityGames (NM/M - currently sold out) [12:10 AM]
$19.19 @ EmpireGamesOnline (Moderately Played) [12:20 AM]
$25.46 @ CapeFearGames (Moderately Played) [1:00 PM]
$34.99 @ StarCityGames (MP) [1.00 PM]
$39.99 @ StarCityGames (NM/M - currently sold out) [1:00 PM]
$49.99 @ AdventuresON (Unplayed) [8:30pm]

[Mark Sun]

As I stated in the other thread, not even going to waste my time with eBay on Time Spirals. Cheapest set at $34.99, I'm staring at it right now and I can't pull the trigger.

Disappointed to hear that Survival is banned, but oh well. Kind of expected it. Let majikal's Intuition list rape the hordes until the next banning, I say.

[Rico Suave]

I don't know about that Survival card, but man Time Spiral was having a huge effect on the format and I'm glad it's gone.

[Leftconsin]

My favorite deck, Elf Survival, had it's heart ripped out. So did a lot of other tier 2 and pet decks like it. All just because the real culprit wasn't on the watch list.

Well, I guess I'll be trying out some Spring Tide lists with Time Spiral. See if they are worth it.

EDIT: Hey! If Vengevine rapes without Survival, can we switch later?

[Mark Sun]

My favorite deck, Elf Survival, had it's heart ripped out. So did a lot of other tier 2 and pet decks like it. All just because the real culprit wasn't on the watch list.

Well, I guess I'll be trying out some Spring Tide lists with Time Spiral. See if they are worth it.

Pretty unfortunate, in my opinion. Well, didn't even have time to buy any, as of 12:05 AM EST, all but a few Time Spirals are left on eBay anyways, haha. Stores will just be magically "out of stock," so no point in going that route.

[Nidd]

Time Spiral unbanned?

Eek. You really want me to play Springtide, do you?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Man, and I was really hoping for Mind's Desire :(

[Leftconsin]

Actually, I bought another Mind Twist yesterday on the hopes it would come off.

[(nameless one)]

LMAO, i was going to buy a 4th Scroll Rack today to match my playset of Land Tax but decided I'll wait for it. I guess it was worth the wait.

[BKclassic]

Time Spiral is unbanned to give the Legacy the potential for another deck. Time Spiral was overpowered in some formats. There are other reasons some cards are banned; some cards cause logistic problems for tournament organizers running large tournaments. For example, some cards cause so many matches to run out of time that it can cause a strain on judging and tournament organization, and even force tournaments to finish outside of the normal tournament venue. We identify such cards by whether they actually caused such problems when they were tournament-legal. Time Spiral did not cause such problems. In balance, the DCI believes the benefits of unbanning Time Spiral outweigh the risks.


Isn't that a really awkward paragraph? Was anyone suggesting that Time Spiral would cause logistical problems?

It is a sweet unbanning, despite the extremely awkward explanation.

[gamegeek2]

Time Spiral unbanned?

Eek. You really want me to play Springtide, do you?

Springtide seems perfectly fair. It can't go off before turn 3, and with its main objective now to cast a 6 mana sorcery, it'll probably be longer. It's vulnerable to the same hate as storm.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's good to see Wizards has something resembling a consistent policy towards banning problematic engine/tutor cards. At least now I feel less angry about the Mystical Tutor ban.

And...Time Spiral does nothing, and will end up being just another Grim Monolith (ie, something they unban to "add format diversity," but which ends up being THE GOGGLES).

Sweet update, Wizards.

[(nameless one)]

Isn't that a really awkward paragraph? Was anyone suggesting that Time Spiral would cause logistical problems?

It is a sweet unbanning, despite the extremely awkward explanation.

To me, it sounded that that explanation was more based on Land Tax. The card itself isnt broken compared to the cards associated with it in the format (from Fetchlands to two-card combos) but it is banned because of the reasons found in that paragraph.

[Royal Ass.]

Isn't that a really awkward paragraph? Was anyone suggesting that Time Spiral would cause logistical problems?

It is a sweet unbanning, despite the extremely awkward explanation.

I totally agree. That paragraph felt like it was written by a high school intern. It had horrible syntax and even what I would assume is a typo; "the legacy." Odd.

[Michael Keller]

I am ecstatic that card is gone. It was annoying and the whole topic was just way too overanalyzed.

"Na na na na...
Na na na na...
Hey hey hey...

...Goodbye."

[birds of paradise2]

Bought 26 Time Spiral, cheers!

[Leftconsin]

AHAHA! I didn't even notice they wrote "the Legacy". It reminds me of that Miss Teen USA answer from Miss South Carolina.

[Mark Sun]

Bought 26 Time Spiral, cheers!

LOL




AHAHA! I didn't even notice they wrote "the Legacy". It reminds me of that Miss Teen USA answer from Miss South Carolina.

I like this particular interpretation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAJUMYGgfZA

[Koby]

Erik Lauer states: "[Survival] has caused the competitive format to become significantly less diverse."

Compare SCG Top 8s from before August, and after August. AKA Breakout of the U/G Survival Madness.

Pre-UG Survival-Madness: (time period 1/1/10 to 6/27/10)
Sample size: 72 decks



Merfolk 12 16.67%
Zoo 11 15.28%
Reanimator 8 11.11%
CounterTop 7 9.72%
Goblins 5 6.94%
New Horizons 4 5.56%
Lands 3 4.17%
Belcher 3 4.17%
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2 2.78%
U/W Tempo 2 2.78%
Threshold 2 2.78%
Bant 2 2.78%
B/W Aggro 1 1.39%
Tezzerator 1 1.39%
Team America 1 1.39%
U/G Survival 1 1.39%
Dredge 1 1.39%
Landstill 1 1.39%
Mono Black Control 1 1.39%
Aggro Loam 1 1.39%
Show and Tell 1 1.39%
Enchantress 1 1.39%
Painter's Grindstone 1 1.39%


Post-UG Madness: (time period 8/22/10 to present)
Sample size: 56 decks



U/G Survival 13 23.21% New deck
Goblins 5 8.93%
G/W Survival 5 8.93% New deck
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 4 7.14%
Ooze Survival 4 7.14% New deck
Merfolk 4 7.14%
Countertop 3 5.36%
Dark Horizons 3 5.36% New deck
Aggro Loam 2 3.57%
Team America 1 1.79%
Sneaky Tell 1 1.79%
Painter's Grindstone 1 1.79%
Zoo 1 1.79%
U/W Aggro 1 1.79%
Threshold 1 1.79%
Bant Survival 1 1.79% New deck
Burn Deck Wins 1 1.79%
Faeries 1 1.79% New deck
Dreadstill 1 1.79% New deck
BUG Control 1 1.79% New deck
Lands 1 1.79%
GWB Rock 1 1.79% New deck


Aside from changing the strangehold of Merfolk, CBtop and Zoo, along with introducing several new decks; how has the diversity been reduced?

[jrsthethird]

Over half of the top 60% or so of the top 8's feature the same engine card. It's obvious.

[Koby]

Over half of the top 60% or so of the top 8's feature the same engine card. It's obvious.

And Force of Will was in the top 4 decks prior to July. Ban FoW?

Merfolk, CBtop, and Reanimator (27/72 = 37.5% penetration in top 3 decks)
Survival in Top 5 (23/56 = 41.1%)*

37% is not enough penetration, but 41%* is?

And here's my point: DCI has no clue what they're doing and throwing darts at a wall to come with their decisions. They are neither consistent nor equal.

*EDIT: Whoops, forgot Bant Survival at the bottom, +1.
**EDIT: Just for funsies. DCI has banned a green combo card and replaced it with a blue combo card. Please ban Island too.

[dschalter]

Erik Lauer states: "[Survival] has caused the competitive format to become significantly less diverse."

Compare SCG Top 8s from before August, and after August. AKA Breakout of the U/G Survival Madness.

Pre-UG Survival-Madness: (time period 1/1/10 to 6/27/10)
Sample size: 72 decks



Merfolk 12 16.67%
Zoo 11 15.28%
Reanimator 8 11.11%
CounterTop 7 9.72%
Goblins 5 6.94%
New Horizons 4 5.56%
Lands 3 4.17%
Belcher 3 4.17%
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 2 2.78%
U/W Tempo 2 2.78%
Threshold 2 2.78%
Bant 2 2.78%
B/W Aggro 1 1.39%
Tezzerator 1 1.39%
Team America 1 1.39%
U/G Survival 1 1.39%
Dredge 1 1.39%
Landstill 1 1.39%
Mono Black Control 1 1.39%
Aggro Loam 1 1.39%
Show and Tell 1 1.39%
Enchantress 1 1.39%
Painter's Grindstone 1 1.39%


Post-UG Madness: (time period 8/22/10 to present)
Sample size: 56 decks



U/G Survival 13 23.21% New deck
Goblins 5 8.93%
G/W Survival 5 8.93% New deck
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 4 7.14%
Ooze Survival 4 7.14% New deck
Merfolk 4 7.14%
Countertop 3 5.36%
Dark Horizons 3 5.36% New deck
Aggro Loam 2 3.57%
Team America 1 1.79%
Sneaky Tell 1 1.79%
Painter's Grindstone 1 1.79%
Zoo 1 1.79%
U/W Aggro 1 1.79%
Threshold 1 1.79%
Bant Survival 1 1.79% New deck
Burn Deck Wins 1 1.79%
Faeries 1 1.79% New deck
Dreadstill 1 1.79% New deck
BUG Control 1 1.79% New deck
Lands 1 1.79%
GWB Rock 1 1.79% New deck


Aside from changing the strangehold of Merfolk, CBtop and Zoo, along with introducing several new decks; how has the diversity been reduced?

Yes.

[menace13]

Yes.
Maybe.

[Rico Suave]

U/G Survival 13 23.21% New deck
Goblins 5 8.93%
G/W Survival 5 8.93% New deck
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 4 7.14%
Ooze Survival 4 7.14% New deck
Merfolk 4 7.14%
Countertop 3 5.36%
Dark Horizons 3 5.36% New deck
Aggro Loam 2 3.57%
Team America 1 1.79%
Sneaky Tell 1 1.79%
Painter's Grindstone 1 1.79%
Zoo 1 1.79%
U/W Aggro 1 1.79%
Threshold 1 1.79%
Bant Survival 1 1.79% New deck
Burn Deck Wins 1 1.79%
Faeries 1 1.79% New deck
Dreadstill 1 1.79% New deck
BUG Control 1 1.79% New deck
Lands 1 1.79%
GWB Rock 1 1.79% New deck


Aside from changing the strangehold of Merfolk, CBtop and Zoo, along with introducing several new decks; how has the diversity been reduced?

Do we really need to explain how Survival making up 40% of the metagame reduces diversity?

Perhaps you need a video illustrating the problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNi1N0H_K00

[Jak]

Lame. Disappointed. Annoyed.

[Koby]

Do we really need to explain how Survival making up 40% of the metagame reduces diversity?


Big difference between % of the metagame and % of Top 8. But thanks for disregarding all the notes that make that obviously clear.

[Jak]

I don't think there is really anything to argue about dominance. Survival decks were overpowered, strong, resilient, and could hit from multiple different angles. A banning did need to happen. Sadly, I feel they got it wrong because they took a card that has been a cornerstone of Legacy since its creation out of the format. Only in the early days of Legacy was it considered too strong and ever since was a fair card that spawned multiple decks. Now, it is banned. Not something to be happy about in my books.

[Rico Suave]

Big difference between % of the metagame and % of Top 8. But thanks for disregarding all the notes that make that obviously clear.


No, the big difference is someone who is making a valid point and someone who is arguing for the sake of arguing, and you are the latter.

[jrsthethird]

And Force of Will was in the top 4 decks prior to July. Ban FoW?

Merfolk, CBtop, and Reanimator (27/72 = 37.5% penetration in top 3 decks)
Survival in Top 5 (23/56 = 41.1%)*

37% is not enough penetration, but 41%* is?

**EDIT: Just for funsies. DCI has banned a green combo card and replaced it with a blue combo card. Please ban Island too.

FOW is not an engine card, it's a utility card. Decks with FOW don't win when FOW is cast. Survival decks do. Have you ever played against a Survival deck when it doesn't resolve? The difference is huge.

DCI is trying to liven up the format. Removing things that don't work and adding things that do. In the past 15 months, they unbanned 3 artifact combo cards, 2 blue combo cards, and a black combo card. Have any of those broken the format? No.

[AngryTroll]

Perhaps you need a video illustrating the problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNi1N0H_K00

"Look, it's some guy playing Tendrils. I think it is Max McCall." I laughed.

[KevinTrudeau]

Survival didn't need to be banned, but the format will be healthy regardless, so it doesn't really matter. The only negatives that can really come out of this are WotC becoming more trigger happy with bannings in the future, or Evan Erwin gaining more influence.

Once Mana Vault gets unbanned, I can finally live my dream of playing Time Spiral, Mind Over Matter, and Dream Halls in one deck again. How I miss those days...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Ugh, this makes me sad. Survival was such a great engine. I wouldn't have been sad to see Vengevine go, but Survival? It was good but not good enough before Vengevine...

Ah well. I don't think either one needed the axe, really, but losing Survival seems really unfortunate to me. On the bright side, I guess we can pick a few up fairly cheap for when it gets unbanned.

[Fossil4182]

I posted this on the WotC forums, but figured I would post it here as well.

The problem with Survival being banned is it is only symptomatic of the larger problem with Legacy as a format; R&D does not design cards with eternal formats in mind. Granted, there are some cards designed which are "playable" in enteral formats (though I doubt a lot of testing went into them and few are defining). It would also be a logistical challenge to test in formats with plus 10,000 cards (in reality though there is probably less than 500 "playable" cards in the eternal formats). The printing of Iona made Reanimator as powerful as it was and Vengevine and Ooze made Survival powerful.

All that said, Legacy (and to a lesser extent Vintage) will likely always be the subject of cards being banned due to unforeseen interactions. While WotC doesn't observe the secondary market, it actually disincentives innovation in Legacy because if you find the "best" deck like Mystical Tutor/Survival decks, odds are it will be banned which tanks the financial investment Spike's make.

Additionally, while it is true that Survival decks have seen their share of dominance the past quarter in recent 5K's, there are several problems with this as a warrant to ban Survival.

First, the banning of Survival seems inconstant given that Jund was allowed to proliferate top 8's of 5K's for nearly a year. Survival hasn't dominated for even half as long as Jund did and its numbers are relatively comparable.

Second, it assumes that Survival decks are not beatable. The problem with Legacy is that with a limited number of large events and a small number of dedicated pros, there is not a lot of innovation in the format and if there is, it is slow to happen. If the "top tier" decks cannot seem to win, then maybe people should start over by designing a new deck with a given meta game in mind. Instead you see the same decks trying to add cards to their main deck or add more sideboard cards to improve the match up. The irony here is that there is probably some thought that banning Survival opens up space for other decks to be competitive; however all it will end up doing is allowing the same decks to compete that did before hand. A good historic example of how innovation can solve is when Counterbalance and Threshold decks were overtaken by Aggro Loam and Dragon Stompy. The Survival meta game, having only been around for three months, really didn't have time to develop new decks to take down Survival. Even most of the articles that have talked about Survival have only talked about how terrible current decks are against Survival. Again, rather than attempt to innovate and beat Survival, most authors and players have just assumed the deck is not beatable.

If anything, the sign of a healthy format is not one in which there is the absence of a "dominate" deck, rather it is a format in which innovation is rewarded and meta games and decks shift. This ban does not promote innovation, rather it reverts the format to what it was. The notion that there are decks that have "unwinnable" match ups are accurate observations to make. The problem is that writers talk about these decks with an implied assumption that they "should" be able to compete with Survival. If the traditional decks in the format cannot compete then they should be relegated to the sidelines as new decks rise to take their place. At least, that would seem to be a healthy format.

Overall, I find it disheartening that WotC really gives eternal formats the shaft most of the time. There is little support and attention given the formats outside of B&R updates. The lack of R&D foresight when designing cards causes terrible ripples in the secondary market and makes for an unstable format when there is a risk of a ban. The two cards that have been unrestricted this year have had almost zero impact on the format. The flip side is that WotC has banned two cards effectively killing at least three deck types (Reanimator, Survival, and nurfed Combo). WotC has done more to stifle creativity in the format than promote it this past year. As an alternative, WotC could of issued an errata to Phyrexian Devourer which would of nurfed the Ooze Survival decks or at least made Survival slow down significantly if it was going for a combo finish. I suggest this because the Ooze version of Survival was cited as a reason for banning...

[sdematt]

I think they acted to quickly on this one, or were afraid to change their minds. Again, they didn't want to admit they were wrong (either by banning Mystical, or in the creation of Vengevine). I think trying Mystical out against VV would have been fine in my books. Again, they can always pull an emergency ban if it got WAY too overpowered, but at least then they'd have proof.

I think we should have given Survival more of a chance being Survival. Survival with no Vengevine doesn't abuse the mechanic. Vengevine broke Survival more than it should, giving you free creatures and haste without having to cast them, cycle multiple creatures, or use Anger. THAT'S why the deck is good: it takes everything that makes Survival slow and gets rid of them, turning one Survival activation into another and into multiple recursion. It would be like having a permanent anger in the yard with Tarmogoyfs with madness. Again, VV needs the ban, sorry DCI. I don't like you now for taking my cornerstone of Legacy and my favourite card and first deck in 1.5 almost 10 years ago. Shame on you.

-Matt

[jazzykat]

Cool they unbanned Time Spiral even if it's useless. Very sad to see SotF go as I felt Ooze was handleable without the VV threat.

[Rood]

If the traditional decks in the format cannot compete then they should be relegated to the sidelines as new decks rise to take their place. At least, that would seem to be a healthy format.


Sounds like a meta warp to beat target deck to me.

[Shabbaman]

Meh.

I was playing Legacy because of Survival. I think an eternal format deserves broken cards. Apparently Wizards rather has us play in "extended plus", where zoo and merfolk are the dominant decks. That's not my format. Back to vintage it is. As for legacy: I plan to annoy wizards by strictly playing combo from now on.

[Tacosnape]

It is what it is. I don't think either Survival or Vengevine would break the format without the other.

I'm actually quite sad to lose an entire archetype I've played for years and years and years. But I gain the Intuition/Vengevine archetype to practice and grow with, so we'll see where it goes.

[Fossil4182]

Sounds like a meta warp to beat target deck to me.


Meh.

I was playing Legacy because of Survival. I think an eternal format deserves broken cards. Apparently Wizards rather has us play in "extended plus", where zoo and merfolk are the dominant decks. That's not my format. Back to vintage it is. As for legacy: I plan to annoy wizards by strictly playing combo from now on.

I think Shadbbaman is just right here. There really isn't ever a "meta" in Legacy unless there is a competitive deck beating a significant part of the field. Post this, we go back to the same boring mix of tribal, counterbalance and Zoo decks with the occasional combo deck. At least with Survival in the mix, it would of forced a shift in the meta game. Three months was not enough time for an adjustment to happen. Additionally, "meta warps" are non unique in that they happen all of the time. Standard saw decks running Spreading Seas in the main deck in an attempt to dethrone Jund less than a year ago yet that wasn't an unhealthy meta-game. In Legacy, the Goyf era when Threshold and Counterbalance decks were dominating the meta game, no one complained with Aggro Loam and Dragon Stopmy created a "warp'd meta game". The notion that decks go in and out of popularity seems more natural. Decks like Canadian Threshold actually post positive match-ups against Survival decks, but would of been unplayable in the meta before hand. Again, people didn't seemingly do the work to find decks that can compete with the dominate deck in the format (or even if they did, the results were posted fast enough).

[luckme10]

Well, I'm for one am relieved. We can all get back to those ban tarmogoyf threads that have eluded us for the last 6 months. Seriously 1G for a 4/5... what were they thinking?!?

Now I'm off to ebay to give 3 dollar "Best Offers" to 4x sets of survival with buy it now prices over $160. Oh merry day!

[CorpT]

Very disappointed.

Be warned, the precedent has been set. When people complain, they ban stuff. This will only encourage people to complain about more things until everyone is happy and nothing is left.

[Iranon]

I'm sad to see Survival gone because it was the centrepiece of many terrible but awesome decks hanging right on the edge of playability. But maybe it was only a question of time since the creature power creep started... sad.

[raudo]

I'm very disappointed. I would love to play the format which is something between legacy and vintage. Skullclamps, Oath of Druids, Survivals etc unbanned. Moxes, Timewalks etc banned.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Without saying that Survival's banning was wrong or that Brainstorm/Force should be banned, it's ridiculous to pretend that there's not a blue-blind slant to bannings in Legacy. The assumption does in fact seem to be that it's normal for blue to be the most prolific color, and that if this changes something is odd and has to be fixed.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think we all saw it coming, but most of us are still disappointed. You can't expect anything involved with Wizards of the Coast to be done with the best interest of the game at heart, but you can always hope. So glad I went out and spent $700 putting together Rock just in time for it to start sucking again. With Survival out of the picture, the field dynamics change and decks that were well positioned in the metagame are now back to being junk. Remind me again why I thought it was worthwhile to eschew MWS for paper magic? If anyone is interested in buying a Rock deck wholesale, let me know. I mize well go to the SCG in KC since I've already got a room and the time off plus way too much money worth of cardboard, but after that, I'll be dumping it off and I'd rather do it in one lump sum than piecemeal. Lesson learned; after KC, I'm done with this game.

[Valrina]

*predicts future*

Surival gets the hammer
Burning Wish goes to the Watchlist
Land Tax is unbanned
Time Spiral is unbanned

from the predict the future thread... come on boys I know it...but wizards if you read my posts please read it completly you need to unban Land Tax... and lol on everyone buying time spiral for a shitload of money now ;9

My 4 are happy with me here since 3 weeks ^^

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think we all saw it coming, but most of us are still disappointed. You can't expect anything involved with Wizards of the Coast to be done with the best interest of the game at heart, but you can always hope. So glad I went out and spent $700 putting together Rock just in time for it to start sucking again. With Survival out of the picture, the field dynamics change and decks that were well positioned in the metagame are now back to being junk. Remind me again why I thought it was worthwhile to eschew MWS for paper magic? If anyone is interested in buying a Rock deck wholesale, let me know. I mize well go to the SCG in KC since I've already got a room and the time off plus way too much money worth of cardboard, but after that, I'll be dumping it off and I'd rather do it in one lump sum than piecemeal. Lesson learned; after KC, I'm done with this game.

Small loss. You're whining because of a move that was obviously on the table for months, throwing a tantrum and acting like there's any motivation for Wizards to ban Survival other than interest in the format's health. It's one thing to say that they made a misjudgment, but to whine and bitch that they don't care about the game because you didn't like their decision is pathetic.

[Solar Ice]

Very sad and very unfair (on the archetype, format, and secondary market) but not unexpected. I just wonder why they couldn't have more patience to wait a few more months, to give this format more time. Or if they had to ban something, nuke VV instead and see how Survival performs then.:mad:

Time Spiral is at least a new toy for us to play with. Whether it will be a great unbanning though remains to be seen.

[practical joke]

It was inevitable, as the game keeps progressing, survival's power will be increasing.

You saw this happening when iona came, then vengevine and after that necrotic ooze-combo was born. The power-level of surival was reaching it's limit and it will have crossed the line of being acceptable in the end. Wizards shouldn't have to create new sets with survival's power in mind.

It's a shame, but it had to be done someday anyways.

[rleader]

Very disappointed.

Be warned, the precedent has been set. When people complain, they ban stuff. This will only encourage people to complain about more things until everyone is happy and nothing is left.

What bugs me the most is that the tone of the DCI implies that "this stuff is permanent" in various ways. They do that on multiple levels, trying to bathe the ruling in an objective, context free light. That's understandable since people question authority and they're used to be questioned. On the other hand, players infer "this is permanent" to an even higher degree, even though Vintage shows us that nothing is written in stone and heck, maybe change can be interesting.

OTOH, if things were done differently regarding tone and expectation:

1. Maybe it might be ok to ban vengevine until something else caused sotf to be the most problematic card in the format; if things change, and can be unchanged, fewer huffs about decisions that have to be scientifically "pure" over "expedient to fun."

2. Card value might be more consistant as cards came in and out and back into legality. I know a lot of people get off on the magic meta financial game and considering themselves "good" at it, and I've been one of those people for the past few years (written for Quiet Speculation, the whole deal). But I'm tired now. I don't want to have to liquidate cards every time Erwin says they're ridiculous or wade through all the major retailer sites at 12:01 after a DCI update. That's not fun for me anymore.

[Cthuloo]

The most funny thing is that the unban of Time Spiral ha blatantly been done so they can just continue to brag about the shortest ban list ever. Doesn't this sound a bit stupid? A format were Homelands is banned will have a way longer ban list, without minimally affecting the metagame.

[zalachan]

The most funny thing is that the unban of Time Spiral ha blatantly been done so they can just continue to brag about the shortest ban list ever.

I was just thinking about the same thing. I couldn't care less about the unbanned stuff every time the anouncement is made.


A format were Homelands is banned will have a way longer ban list, without minimally affecting the metagame.
Lol, you made my day (even though now i only have a playset of "edh chase rares"; i just need to make 3 more edh decks to use all of my Survivals).

[Shabbaman]

In Legacy, the Goyf era when Threshold and Counterbalance decks were dominating the meta game, no one complained with Aggro Loam and Dragon Stopmy created a "warp'd meta game".

That's the thing: people should just complain more, and make a video blog about it. It's hard to deny that Survival archetypes are strong, but so are Workshop, Oath and Tezzeret archetypes in Vintage. I played some Vintage before Legacy's inception, so perhaps my view is skewed: but shouldn't an eternal format have defining (format warping) archetypes? At least in Vintage it's clear that there are old cards so strong that they can't be matched by random type 2 cards. What does Legacy have in that category? Dual lands, FoW, LED... On the bright side, at least EDH lets people play with proper tutors, and from now on I can complain about Counterbalance warping the metagame, then Tarmogoyf, then Rhox war monk... all I need is to learn how to post a video on Youtube ;)

[Amon Amarth]

+1 to about everything was said so far. Sad to see Survival go. Really wish we could have more crap unabnned. But the worst part is that it's not over yet. I'm sure internet talking heads are penning two weeks worth of called shot articles and comparing Survival and Necropotence.

Sigh.

[frenchy-man]

Will it be possible to ask for the ban of vial when stupid-merfolks will get 3 places in every top 8 ?

'cause it seems to work like this now with wizard...

[pippo84]

Oh, come on, please stop complaining! We all knew it was going to happen! Nobody is happy obviously because it's a great archetipe, but it was expected.

@Cthuloo: Your predictions where correct! (He told me that they would say that this is the shorter ban list ever etc..)

Anyways let's see if the new unban will lead to something.

[godryk]

The song remains the same: everybody is out there talking about the very same card all the time, about how it dominates the metagame, about how unfair it is. Some people say that it's not so dominant somewhere, some people tell them to shut the fuck up, all the Legacy-related articles consist in people bitching about how powerful a deck is, a few other talk about it being beatable but concede it will be banned. Repeat for two months. Then it gets banned and now everybody is dissappointed and talk about how unfair other shit had been before and wasn't banned. Gonna check out Mish Mash, maybe there's something yummy in the chicks thread.

[ddt15]

So we're back to the Storm<CB/Fish<Gobs/Zoo<Storm meta then i guess.

[Dia_Bot]

To be honest I'm also getting tired of all the complaining in here. Get...over...it!

EDIT:
So we're back to the Storm<CB/Fish<Gobs/Zoo<Storm meta then i guess.

I think that's a good thing.

[alphacat]

I'm not that disappointed, as this decision has been predicted for quite a while.

However, I AM disappointed that Wizards didn't throw us a bigger bone though. Banning Survival killed 5~6 viable decks in the format, one would think that they could at least unban a few more cards to open up space for deck design. Unbanning TS is simply not enough, as it won't do much of anything.

I think at this point, I want DCI to just unban as many cards as possible, and let the metagame work itself out.


To be honest I'm also getting tired of all the complaining in here. Get...over...it!

Feel free to leave, door is dataway ------------------->

[Gui]

I'm not that disappointed, as this decision has been predicted for quite a while.

However, I AM disappointed that Wizards didn't throw us a bigger bone though. Banning Survival killed 5~6 viable decks in the format, one would think that they could at least unban a few more cards to open up space for deck design. Unbanning TS is simply not enough, as it won't do much of anything.

I think at this point, I want DCI to just unban as many cards as possible, and let the metagame work itself out.


I don't feel disapointed with the non-unban politics at all. I mean, how many people even know every possible card legacy got. I think the format is gigantic and there are lots of stuff that could be used to produce new decks that could be playable. I don't think we need them to unban possibly strong cards to make room for deck designing.

Actually, every single card they can unban already has a deck ready to try it, as Time Spiral will now be tested at Spring Tide rather than build a hole new archetype.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Wait...
Why couldn't they just ban Vengevine? Technically, their R&D department decided to print something without playtesting Legacy, and then they ban something that literally makes so many decks tick that it's not funny. "We wrecked your favorite engine card, Legacy. But look, we made you an ashtray!"
Not only that, but I was asleep by midnight, and there are no cards that are going to go up secondarily because of this unbanning (like Power Artifact when Grim Monolith came off)
Also, maybe it's time to splash Green in Tide-decks for extra land drops?
Exploration, Burgeoning, and Explore all seem like possible candidates.
EDIT: I'm broke right now, but anyone looking to make a few bucks off idiots on Salvation can buy 2 Time Spiral on MTGstronghold for $13 each.

[Skeggi]

What's done is done. It will take quite a printing of new cards to make the DCI even remotely think about unbanning Survival. Whether or not it's a good thing is irrelevant. There's no point in convincing people this is a bad mistake. The point is that it happened and we all have to adapt to it.

Eyes to the future, we have a new old meta to develop! :wink:

[mich]

I guess everebyody could've seen it's comming. Still I don't think that banning survival was a good decision, not just jet - they could've at least tried to answer the deck with new cards in upcoming sets first.(If they found survival too powerful wich I still don't think it was).

What I find really lame however is the explenation for banning - after the ridiciolus story of pro's beating random players in casual room on MODO (banning of MT) this time all we get is a short statement wich can be summed up as: " We decided to ban Survival, because we think it should be banned. Survival is overpowered, because it allows you to replace redundant creature card in your hand for the one you actually need, for G" (o'rly? so that's what that card does... -_-'). I'd like to get some more insight to DCI's decisions concerning B&R list, as well as some actual data they rely on when determining whether the card is just powerful or broken.

[SlopeeJ]

Why couldn't they just ban Vengevine?

Other cards were considered, such as Vengevine. However some of the winning decks do not even play Vengevine; instead, they primarily rely on combinations with Necrotic Ooze. Also, Survival is a card that gives the decks a lot of resilience to potential answer cards. Some combination decks fail when they draw cards intended as answers to opponents' decks instead of cards that are part of their winning combination. However, with Survival of the Fittest on the battlefield, a drawn Qasali Pridemage can be replaced with any other creature in the deck for one mana.

Are these all the same people complaining about pet decks? Talk about pet decks, no body cares (wizards, me etc) that you and your grandpa have been playing with survival since WWII and you claim it has been fine. I agree it is a cool card and it sucks that it had to go, but it has gotten more powerful with the printing of better and better creatures. Tutors are banned for a reason, because they are tutors and allow you to tutor for your win conditions.

My favorite creature of all time is Mahamoti Djinn 5/6 flier for 4uu. I was so mad when wizards decided to print better creatures, I've been pissed since revised days........


Banning Survival killed 5~6 viable decks in the format
I'm curious what decks these are? Unless you meant to say banning survival made 5-6 different decks viable now instead of survival vs storm.

[eq.firemind]

C'mon people, be positive! This huge and boring "should (not) be..." discussion is finally over!
Actually, DCI earns some respect for having balls to do what they did (and I guess they're not blind and deaf to not know that Survival is such a pet/staple card for amny of us). And they did it twice. Mystical Tutor was not the obvious decision and who can now say the format becomes worse from that?

[Odd Mutation]

Really too bad. I've been a fan of Survival for a very long time. I even designed a Welder Survival deck from scratch for a friend (he top 8'ed), long before there was any talk about the concept on any forum! He and another friend built Survival decks that were already insane in 'type 2' as soon as the card was spoiled during the tempest era... As soon as we noticed the card we were all over it! Such a cool and powerful concept.

I enjoyed playing Mystical Tutor decks, then it got banned.
I enjoyed playing Survival of the Fittest decks, then it got banned (guess Creationism won that battle :)).

I don't know if the lists were just well engineered and played awesomely or that the cards involved were truly too degenerate for the format to handle.

It's funny, anytime I enjoy playing a well tuned deck, Wizards decides to ban the centerpiece. The decks in question remind me of the days of power: the time of old Extended, when duals were still legal there. Oath of Druids, Miracle Grow, The Rock and it's Millions, Illusions/Donate and consorts. I have fond memories of those days and because so many good players and teams were building decks, they were monsters of tuning and engineering (for whatever the knowledge and understanding of Magic: The Gathering used to be back then).

Ah well, back to the drawing board...

Robrecht

[DrJones]

And Force of Will was in the top 4 decks prior to July. Ban FoW?

Merfolk, CBtop, and Reanimator (27/72 = 37.5% penetration in top 3 decks)
Survival in Top 5 (23/56 = 41.1%)*

37% is not enough penetration, but 41%* is?The coined term for that disparity is selective bullshit. It doesn't help that you cannot point to the elephant in the room without being bashed by the general public, either. They defend the dictatorship of Force of Will like mindless partisans, fearing the attack of ghosts if we get rid of the golden calf.

[(nameless one)]

I enjoyed playing Mystical Tutor decks, then it got banned.
I enjoyed playing Survival of the Fittest decks, then it got banned (guess Creationism won that battle :)).



You should start playing CounterTop and enjoy it. Maybe they'll ban Sensei's Divining Top, Force of Will or Tarmogoyf.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I'm curious what decks these are? Unless you meant to say banning survival made 5-6 different decks viable now instead of survival vs storm.

RGBSA
Survival Elves
Vengevival
Ooze Survival
Welder Survival
RecSur
Enchantress/Survival hybrids being worked on over at mtgsalvation
Iona/Retainers
All possible decks to play.
Also, I still cite lack of creativity as part of the survival issue. Zoo could run Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Goblins are way faster than Survival, Merfolk could maindeck Echoing Truth (which people were doing for some time, anyway).
What decks did Survival's banning facilitate the play of?



Other cards were considered, such as Vengevine. However some of the winning decks do not even play Vengevine; instead, they primarily rely on combinations with Necrotic Ooze. Also, Survival is a card that gives the decks a lot of resilience to potential answer cards. Some combination decks fail when they draw cards intended as answers to opponents' decks instead of cards that are part of their winning combination. However, with Survival of the Fittest on the battlefield, a drawn Qasali Pridemage can be replaced with any other creature in the deck for one mana.

Wait, did Wizards just say that they don't like giving decks resilience? Survival wasn't a real issue before the Zendikar block. It was just a good card that let you run a bunch of narrow, 1-of answers that made the deck somewhat bad without an active Survival.
Suddenly, Iona, Vengevine, and Necrotic Ooze are all printed
"I wrecked your favorite engine card, Legacy. But look, we made you three ashtrays!"
Is it at all possible that Wizards is just printing crap to make it easier to ban cards that they don't like in Legacy? I mean, they printed Ad Nauseam and Iona and unbanned Entomb, and then went "Oops, I guess we made Mystical Tutor too powerful. Sorry. But our poor choices and decision to not playtest new cards in Legacy are now taking a great card away from the format."
And then they did that again with Survival.
What's next, huh? How many great cards does the format have to lose due to stupid printings and unbannings?
Well, Buried Alive might be on the chopping block soon.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The coined term for that disparity is selective bullshit. It doesn't help that you cannot point to the elephant in the room without being bashed by the general public, either. They defend the dictatorship of Force of Will like mindless partisans, fearing the attack of ghosts if we get rid of the golden calf.

Well maybe the fact that 99% of people agree that banning Force is a terrible idea should tell you something. At any rate, Wizards is not going to ban Force unless they want the format to die, so QQ find a better pet deck.

[SlopeeJ]

What decks did Survival's banning facilitate the play of?
Any deck that isn't survival or combo.Take your pick

I giggled pretty hard when I read your list of decks. Those are all decks with the broken tutor of survival in them, they are not survival decks. The card survival is what is broken. There is no deck "survival elves" or "survival enchantress" be serious, why would anyone play "survival enchantress" over the real winning survival lists. You can still play all those shitty decks, you can't just land one card and tutor for your win conditions over and over each turn. All the combo pieces are still playable, ooze/vines/Iona etc etc etc what ever combo is in "survival enchantress". People are missing the whole repeatable tutor every turn clause here that is the problem

[DragoFireheart]

Back to Bant Aggro / Pro-NO Bant.

[Valrina]

The coined term for that disparity is selective bullshit. It doesn't help that you cannot point to the elephant in the room without being bashed by the general public, either. They defend the dictatorship of Force of Will like mindless partisans, fearing the attack of ghosts if we get rid of the golden calf.

This will go in my sig as the most stupid post ever.

Banning FoW ? to achieve what ? Making Belcher the dominant deck ? Ban FoW and Combo will get even stronger ...and it is still way to... ah forget it ... sig^^

[DragoFireheart]

This will go in my sig as the most stupid post ever.

Banning FoW ? to achieve what ? Making Belcher the dominant deck ? Ban FoW and Combo will get even stronger ...and it is still way to... ah forget it ... sig^^

Perhaps banning Lion's Eye Diamond is needed in response?

[The Wolf]

Was anyone really not expecting this? I played tested once over the last 2 months and sold mine a while ago. 5 minutes with a well built version of the deck and you could tell it was over powered.

People claiming survival isn’t a problem are just wrong. Survival interacts with cards in your library, hand, graveyard, as well as being a discard outlet and a silver bullet enabler. Vengevine interacts with your graveyard and cards in hand, that’s it. You can’t keep banning every card that breaks survival when they are printed. It’s a broken engine and needed to go.

[KindGrind]

Was anyone really not expecting this? I played tested once over the last 2 months and sold mine a while ago. 5 minutes with a well built version of the deck and you could tell it was over powered.

People claiming survival isn’t a problem are just wrong. Survival interacts with cards in your library, hand, graveyard, as well as being a discard outlet and a silver bullet enabler. Vengevine interacts with your graveyard and cards in hand, that’s it. You can’t keep banning every card that breaks survival when they are printed. It’s a broken engine and needed to go.

QFT.

Pretty much exactly my thoughts.

[FieryBalrog]

Did someone just say Samurai of the Pale Curtain was Zoo's solution to Survival?

[alphacat]

Wait...
Why couldn't they just ban Vengevine? Technically, their R&D department decided to print something without playtesting Legacy, and then they ban something that literally makes so many decks tick that it's not funny. "We wrecked your favorite engine card, Legacy. But look, we made you an ashtray!"
Not only that, but I was asleep by midnight, and there are no cards that are going to go up secondarily because of this unbanning (like Power Artifact when Grim Monolith came off)
Also, maybe it's time to splash Green in Tide-decks for extra land drops?
Exploration, Burgeoning, and Explore all seem like possible candidates.
EDIT: I'm broke right now, but anyone looking to make a few bucks off idiots on Salvation can buy 2 Time Spiral on MTGstronghold for $13 each.

Well, because it's easier to blame something old than to blame they made a recent mistake. That's why Jace wont' be banned, nor will VV.

[Fossil4182]

Its disappointing that WotC seemingly only looks at results when determining a banning. There is no testing, no articulation of the process and no clear definition of what constitutes banning a card. Making a quantifiable set of guidelines of what constitutes banning accessible to players only seems fair. Even creating a watch list which "at risk" cards are placed on prior to banning a card, would help solve some of people's complaints surrounding the Banned and Restricted list's implementation. WotC won't break the Reserved List because of a promise to collectors to protect their investment, so how about some enacting some policies to protect players from investing in a deck only to have the value tank three months later?

The number of articles and good/warranted posts that articulate why banning Mystical Tutor was unnecessary are abound. In those same articles the warrants WotC gave for banning Mystical Tutor where critical analyzed and concluded to be poor reasons to ban (to say the least). Its funny how WotC hears the complaints of people when it comes to a card being "dominate" but is silent regarding the criticism surrounding the B&R list policies.

[Sims]

There is no deck "survival elves" or "survival enchantress" be serious

Actually.. Yeah, Yeah there is.

Survival Enchantress hybrid decks were being developed at salvation, take that for what it is.. but the deck existed.... And survival elf decks were worked on here for quite a while. There's even a thread for an EPIC version of it. Deck was pretty solid, didn't play as quick as glimpse elf combo but it was much more resilient... How awesome is having Survival to tutor whatever elves you need (lords, mana guys, answers to removal, ringleader effect) to apply constant pressure, then use it to find your Emrakul when you've ramped to 15+...and STILL having NO-Pro as a backup win con?

Survival is gone, I'm sad to see it go. I'd rather have seen VV gone because SotF did enable more fun and competitive archtypes than most, if not any, other cards in the format. But by the logic the DCI seems to be running by, this is par for the course and I saw this coming from a mile away.

Time to wrap it up and move on. Or don't. I know people who won't be playing Legacy again now over just playing Standard because they had more fun playing Survival-Ooze (non-vine), Survival Elves, Elbow Breaker, etc.. over anything else in this format because the card/decks were so flexible. But that's the way of the game.

[AriLax]

And Force of Will was in the top 4 decks prior to July. Ban FoW?

Merfolk, CBtop, and Reanimator (27/72 = 37.5% penetration in top 3 decks)
Survival in Top 5 (23/56 = 41.1%)*

37% is not enough penetration, but 41%* is?


Merfolk, CBTop, and Reanimator are all significantly different decks. The Survival decks are not. They all play Survival, then pay 5-7 mana to cheat something from their deck into play.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Force keeps a lot of stuff in check. They'd need to ban a bunch of stuff to nerf combo to ban Force, too
And even then, there'd be nothing fun left to play.



Survival Enchantress hybrid decks were being developed at salvation

I know I said this, too, but looking at when the thread started, I came up with my list 2 months prior.
WIZARDS DESTROYED MY DECK.

[Nekrataal]

Sad to see Survival go. It was "the source" for many innovative decks through the past of Magic history and fuels a lot of current decks even before UG Madness. The article describes well the immanent threat Survival poses for the format. So at some point in time the "Vengevine" incident had to happen and will happen again. Maybe Ooze was just the missing piece that was needed to come to that conclusion. So while Vengevine on its own is nowehere near to be format breaking, SotF is an Engine with a build-in future danger. I really love playing with Survival but being honest it is the only logical conclusion to ban it. Banning Vengevine just doesn't make sense because on its own it is just a mediocre creature nothing more and mothing less. Banning Vengevine would mean to acknowledge that the format would be healthy without it again but just for a short time and answering the following questions with YES whenever it appears. At some point this just becomes absurd.

How much creatures would you like to ban in the future to keep SotF in the format?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Why is it necessarily a bad thing to ban multiple creatures over Survival?

I think the problem that always arises in these banned list discussions is that there's no really clear goal to the banned list, either in official DCI policy nor in the opinion of players. Smennen's article kind of addressed this point; the goal of a banned list should be to make a format more fun. That's a pretty reasonable if vague goal. Diversity is fun. Most people prefer the format when there are as many viable deck choices as possible, and don't much care for formats where only 1 or 2 decks are dominating.

You'll notice in this train of thought, that there's no logical necessity to keeping the banned list short. More cards banned don't necessarily decrease the field of options. We could quadruple the banned list's size, but if the cards going on were the entire Homelands set, it wouldn't hurt anybody's deck (except Thunderbluff of course).

Banning Ooze and Vengevine, and even one or two other future cards that exclusively work with SotF doesn't hurt anybody that isn't hurt by SotF being banned. Banning Survival DOES hurt people that weren't playing with Ooze or Vengevine.


But, as everyone has said, the decision isn't surprising. Because the DCI doesn't have any real philosophy or guiding principles in banning cards.

[rleader]

How much creatures would you like to ban in the future to keep SotF in the format?

Why couldn't that be a question that the DCI asked themselves each time it became an issue? It's not like they're otherwise busy curing cancer.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Also,


However some of the winning decks do not even play Vengevine; instead, they primarily rely on combinations with Necrotic Ooze

I've been going through the SCG database trying to find a winning list that didn't play Vengevines, but not having much luck.

Does anyone know if this statement is actually based on anything?

[MattH]

Also,



I've been going through the SCG database trying to find a winning list that didn't play Vengevines, but not having much luck.

Does anyone know if this statement is actually based on anything?

Probably Chapin's GP list, knowing them.

[Rune]

Also,



I've been going through the SCG database trying to find a winning list that didn't play Vengevines, but not having much luck.

Does anyone know if this statement is actually based on anything?

Probably referring to this http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiac775q6

[Mark Sun]

Probably referring to this http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiac775q6

Which in a vacuum seems scary, but WOTC probably neglected the part where he played 3 Aven Mindcensor in the MD and probably crushed a lot of the mirror.

[coraz86]

Does anyone know if this statement is actually based on anything?

My guess is that it's based on Wizards' desire to sell packs, as I too haven't seen a Survival deck without Vengevines since the Grand Prix. Because RoE packs are such hot shit amongst Legacy players that banning Vengevine would've lost Wizards at least $20, maybe $30. That's real money, man.

[Koby]

Also,



I've been going through the SCG database trying to find a winning list that didn't play Vengevines, but not having much luck.

Does anyone know if this statement is actually based on anything?

I too found this statement by Lauer to be a gotcha.
4 out of 23 decks from SCG Opens played Ooze. Most notibly, those decks still primarily relied on Vv to win games. Case in point: Gerry T's top 8 game vs Sneak Show and racing a turn 2 Progenitus without using Survival nor Ooze.

But real data never factors into DCI decisions. Just how many more booster packs they can continue to sell. Banning Survival makees the majority of the Magic community happy. Unfortunatly, Legacy community is the minority here.

PS: I hate when Chapin shows up to local tournaments and doesn't play. I fucking hate high-horse pros who worry more about their rating than supporting local retailers.

[GGoober]

Viable Survival decks:

RGBSA (I played, WGB versions)
ATS (I played)
Bant Survival (I played)
Elf Survival (I played)
Welder Survival (I played so much)
Ooze Survival (I played)
Vengevival (I didn't play)

Glad I've played most of the archetypes before this is implemented. No regrets not playing Vengevival at all. I didn't kill some of my brain cells playing a Standard skill-level deck in Legacy.

Regardless, this is one of my low days in Legacy. To be honest, personally I'm quite disappointed with the decision. I don't even care if it's banned. I just feel another 3 month of testing/data would give more evidence to bannings. considering that Survival has been around for as long the format has been, this banning is too prompt IMO, and you can't really justify the killings of all the previous successful archetypes that were fair.

And fuck you WotC, I'm still keeping my playset of Survivals, because it's the only green card I like in MTG (I hate creatures but SotF makes me play a deck with creatures because of the card).

Time Spiral? Don't think it's too scary. Turnabout does just fine but drawing 7 cards could be important in going off for Spring Tide, barring your opponents drawing FoWs, but statistically you should have the FoWs as well. I do think Time Spiral could be abused in other decks outside of combo. It is a fairly strong card in control once you have established some board/control position.

[dahcmai]

Well, I'm sad about it, but I don't mind too much. I just liked Survival before it got the Vengevines anyway. Vengevine broke it, but it's not like they will stop making these creatures that continue to push the "free" envelope" anyway. So if it didn't happen now, it would happen later.

Time Spiral, meh. Another card that won't see any play. It's time is long past. It's like Land Tax, one of the cards that was on the list as practically a joke. Though a little more scary than the rest. I'm actually surprised they let this one off the list. It only enables combo and that's it. There's no other real good use for it. Tossing the Mystical crowd a bone? I feel bad for all the people who jumped on this one for speculating. Dump while the ride is high.

[obituary 95]

i honestly think they could have banned vengvine . when i was playing aggainst survival with control it wasnt survival tht would kill me. survival would not resolve . the card that always killed me was vv

Please learn to post properly.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS

Verbal warning. - Bardo

[Watcher487]

Guys, I really look at it for 2 things to change in this current format to get Survival back.

1. Phyrexian Devourer to go back partially to it's origional text (0: Remove a card from the top of your library, then add X +1/+1 counters on this equal to the removed card's converted mana cost, if this current power is equal to or higher than 7 bury it.)

2. BAN BASKING ROOTWALLA.

But all things considered they are printing better creatures and abusable things here, so just like Mystical Tutor, I actually picture this being decent reasoning. I'd just wish they just state that and get it over with.

[Sims]

Guys, I really look at it for 2 things to change in this current format to get Survival back.

1. Phyrexian Devourer to go back partially to it's origional text (0: Remove a card from the top of your library, then add X +1/+1 counters on this equal to the removed card's converted mana cost, if this current power is equal to or higher than 7 bury it.)

2. BAN BASKING ROOTWALLA.

But all things considered they are printing better creatures and abusable things here, so just like Mystical Tutor, I actually picture this being decent reasoning. I'd just wish they just state that and get it over with.

The thing is, Shane, I don't think Rootwalla was really the problem. I mean sure it increases the difficulty (you need another creature in hand and possibly another G to get a hierarch/bird/memnite/thopter to play your second creature instead of just using rootwallas) but it doesn't slow the deck down THAT much. Rootwalla would have been interesting but it's not the reason the deck was good.

As far as Devourer goes, if they did that the combo would just splash red into the shell -> Anger -> Fanatic -> Kiki -> Devourer and win that way. It would hurt the Non-survival version of the deck more becuase they'd have to run Shallow Graves/whatever the other hastey reanimation spell is in order to pull the combo off, which slow the deck down by reanimate not being as good.

[(nameless one)]

Time Spiral Watch updated.

[mishima_kazuya]

Was anyone really not expecting this? I played tested once over the last 2 months and sold mine a while ago. 5 minutes with a well built version of the deck and you could tell it was over powered.

People claiming survival isn’t a problem are just wrong. Survival interacts with cards in your library, hand, graveyard, as well as being a discard outlet and a silver bullet enabler. Vengevine interacts with your graveyard and cards in hand, that’s it. You can’t keep banning every card that breaks survival when they are printed. It’s a broken engine and needed to go.

Truth is here.

I love this format and I love this community, but most of you are sounding like idiots. Powercreep exists and creatures are only going to get better.

Sure you could ban Vengevine, but the next set will probably have another busted creature for Survival to work with. After a while we might as well start a watch group to watch for the next broken Survival synergy.

Btw, a format can't be too healthy when a metagame is more warped than the time Dredge was the best deck in Extended.

And I'm not some DCI lapdog. I think banning Mystical Tutor was wrong, but banning Survival was absolutely correct.

[4eak]

It is what it is: the end of an era. Legacy without Survival is a different Legacy.

/target Survival
/salute

That video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNi1N0H_K00) was hilarious.

It's ok; there is another (skywalker) :1::g: card that will rise to dominant power (once again).



peace,
4eak

[Michael Keller]

Its disappointing that WotC seemingly only looks at results when determining a banning. There is no testing, no articulation of the process and no clear definition of what constitutes banning a card. Making a quantifiable set of guidelines of what constitutes banning accessible to players only seems fair. Even creating a watch list which "at risk" cards are placed on prior to banning a card, would help solve some of people's complaints surrounding the Banned and Restricted list's implementation. WotC won't break the Reserved List because of a promise to collectors to protect their investment, so how about some enacting some policies to protect players from investing in a deck only to have the value tank three months later?

The number of articles and good/warranted posts that articulate why banning Mystical Tutor was unnecessary are abound. In those same articles the warrants WotC gave for banning Mystical Tutor where critical analyzed and concluded to be poor reasons to ban (to say the least). Its funny how WotC hears the complaints of people when it comes to a card being "dominate" but is silent regarding the criticism surrounding the B&R list policies.

Anyone who didn't sell their Survivals when they skyrocketed to sixty dollars a pop should be tarred and feathered. The card was destined to go after all the ridiculous placing continuity at large events and discussion over whether it merits banning or not. All of the pieces were perfectly in place for this to happen. People then turn around and whine and complain because they lost out on the perpetual "gamble" that it would stay.

It didn't, and that's the way it goes.

I'm sure others share your sentiment, but reality check: when a card performs as well as that does, shoots up in price as high as it does, and the Banned and Restricted Announcement is impending, rule of thumb is to generally cash out before you find yourself out money. What's the worst that can happen if it stays, re-buying them with the money you made selling them?

I believe the D.C.I. made a very good move by dismissing this card in the format. It was so generic to witness the same monotonous plays being made with Survival these last few months, that it totally reminded me of how truly multifaceted the card really used to be. There were plenty of variants years ago that didn't rely on Vengevine or Ooze as a primary source of winning matches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_World_Championship#1998_World_Championship).

But was Survival perceived then as being a "broken" commodity? Perhaps. Either way it was strong enough to win the title twelve years ago with a vastly inferior card pool. Makes you wonder why it got as sick as it did over the course of two decades and thousands more card interactions later.

[sdematt]

I'm really disappointed in the ban. I've been playing against VV for months, and it's a good deck. Certain dominant strategies (namely Merfolk) couldn't compete and were forced out of the top slots. Other decks had decent matchups: Landstill, Rock, Combo, Stax. Oh look, decks that aren't 50% of the metagame. I'm not saying I never lost games against Survival, but I was able to beat them using several different strategies. Was I able to switch decks? Yes. Was I able to play smaller portions of the archetype pie to combat a dominant deck? Yes. Did I lose games against VV? Of course I did.

Sending 1000 new Legacy players armed with Merfolk against pros at high level events with Vengevine is like sending fresh zombies into a Combine Autogun (I've just been playing Episode 2, leave me alone): all you're going to see is Top 8's filled with Vengevine. Yes, the deck was fast. Yes, it was resilient. I understand that having a tutor ability to find 1-of's as silver bullets seems to be against the wishes of the DCI and many players. But, it's not unbeatable.

I've been playing Survival since 1.5, and Rec-Sur was my first deck almost 10 years ago. I played Rec-Sur, ATS, and all the variants in between until the switch to Legacy. I played "crap Survival" for the past 5 years, as Survival really didn't get to Tier 1 after the format change. I've been running it as a fun deck, and trying to constantly improve upon its strategies. Then Bant Survival came along and I was saved. It was a fun deck packing an interesting combo strategy, before and after Iona. Again, it wasn't the absolute nuts, but it was a decent enough deck that you could play in a tournament and win with.

The limitation of Survival up to 2010 was you couldn't chain activations and get all the creatures you wanted. Squee allowed you to basically get one creature you wanted to cast per turn, unless you were dumping creatures in the graveyard to reuse them somehow. Squee into Genesis into Anger into Rofellos into X was good, but required time and mana. But, after this, you couldn't chain Tarmogoyf into Tarmogoyf. You needed multiple creatures to get multiple creatures to cast in the same turn, and this was the limitation of Survival up to the existence of Vengevine. You had to dump creatures in the bin, or slowly pour out threats. Vengevine took all of this out of the equation. Anger wasn't needed, so you could cut a less stable manabase. Genesis is no longer required, as chaining activations still led you to getting all the creatures you wanted in the end game, and Squee was longer required because you only needed to chain 6 creatures once. Taking all of that into consideration, you've taken everything that makes Survival fair and turned it into a beast.

The complains of Survival was the fact you can find silver bullets, sure. But what about Vengevine? Vengevine changed the face of Survival. Without Vengevine as a quick kill/putting fat out on the table, Survival decks had few choices of fat beats. To be honest, most beating down was either done by Tarmogoyfs (in the last 3-4 years), or by poking the opponent to death with smaller utility creatures. Before that, Recurring Nightmare allowed Echo/Reya Dawnbringer or Cocoa Pebbles shenanigans. Pebbles wasn't fair: at the time, it was very difficult to stop except by a counter, but I could fetch more pieces to go off again. This is the same thing: killing Vengevine doesn't do anything, as they can recombo by getting two creatures.

The arguments of Survival being abusive are true, but only with Vengevine. An Ooze-only Survival combo deck I think wouldn't do as well as one with Vengevine in it. Vengevine gives them the option of a quick kill over a combo kill, and which ever path shapes up better during the game, that's the route they'll go. Survival has a plan A and B here, but plans do other decks have? Few, to say the least.

Is the banning of Vengevine good for the health of the format versus the banning of Survival? Depends. If they're trying to axe Vengevine-Survival decks in their overall form to help bring back the dominant archetypes of 6 months ago, axing either piece does the job. but, axing Survival gets rid of many (sometimes) underwhelming strategies that added diversity and fun to the format. Vengevine is only used in a Survival shell (mot of the time, not counting Buried Alive/Intuition) and doesn't add "diversity and fun" to the format, which is what the DCI constantly seems to be striving for.

I'm not going to sit here and say "Unban Survival!" because I doubt it'll happen. I'm hoping it'll happen in a few months, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm just wanting them to realize they've sucked diversity and fun out of the format by banning a current menace instead of banning the card that makes the menace what it is.

I agree with 4eak: Legacy doesn't feel the same without you, Survival. Rest in peace, I shall miss thee.

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

But was Survival perceived then as being a "broken" commodity? Perhaps. Either way it was strong enough to win the title twelve years ago with a vastly inferior card pool. Makes you wonder why it got as sick as it did over the course of two decades and thousands more card interactions later.

I knew that if they would ban a card, it would be Survival.
It can tutor.
It enables the Vengevine and Ooze combos.
It's fast.
It was dominating tournaments.


WotC doesn't like that in a card. So, it got banned. Can't say I'm surprised, but I'm disappointed that more time was not given. On the plus side, the banning is consistent with the Mystical Tutor ban.

[KindGrind]

Time Spiral Watch updated.

Who in their right mind would buy a playset of Time Spiral @35$?!? Don't enourage price gouging and don't buy, people.... You know better than this.

[nedleeds]

Why they couldn't have waited until June is unclear. Players in the U.S. are herd animals. Eventually a couple of new archtypes would have risen to crush SotF / VV and the herd would have shifted. White Staxx / Suppression Field ... etc. people just need time to get cards for other decks. The kid who bought into Merfolk isn't so quick to chuck his investment and buy Smokestacks, Suppression Fields and Trinispheres.

[DireLemming]

I am somewhat dismayed by this banning. Not so much because Survival got the axe (although I would prefer it stay) but because it makes me believe they are keeping cards on the banned list for no other reason than to unban them as a trade-in where they take something away.

[luckme10]

Guess they're saving the unbanning of land tax for when they really screw up then.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Sure you could ban Vengevine, but the next set will probably have another busted creature for Survival to work with.]

So you don't think Wizards should test cards in Legacy to make sure they won't poop all over the metagame and take away a card people have loved for more than a decade? Had Wizards given a fuck eight months ago, maybe we'd still have Survival today. But I guess it isn't their responsibility to make sure that all of their sanctioned formats stay healthy, is it?

[SlopeeJ]

So you don't think Wizards should test cards in Legacy to make sure they won't poop all over the metagame and take away a card people have loved for more than a decade? Had Wizards given a fuck eight months ago, maybe we'd still have Survival today. But I guess it isn't their responsibility to make sure that all of their sanctioned formats stay healthy, is it?

It is there job to keep the formats healthy and that is why they banned surivial....... to keep the legacy metagame healthy. Maybe they did test and thought it would be okay? Maybe they thought printing a a 4/3 creature that comes back for free is just as fun.Maybe they thought some more broken stuff would happen and it would balance out? Maybe the magic gods just don't like you? Nothing has been pooped on, one card that you loved is banned.... Sucks but it has seen it's day with creatures getting more powerful. Tutors get banned. Legacy is still fun and will continue to be fun.

I would much rather not have the new cards be limited or held back due to older cards, esp if the only reason is some players "love" it. Also to expect wizards to know every combination or broken combo that is going to come out of new cards is stupid.

[Volrath]

It is there job to keep the formats healthy and that is why they banned surivial....... to keep the legacy metagame healthy. Maybe they did test and thought it would be okay? Maybe they thought printing a a 4/3 creature that comes back for free is just as fun.Maybe they thought some more broken stuff would happen and it would balance out? Maybe the magic gods just don't like you? Nothing has been pooped on, one card that you loved is banned.... Sucks but it has seen it's day with creatures getting more powerful. Tutors get banned. Legacy is still fun and will continue to be fun.

I would much rather not have the new cards be limited or held back due to older cards, esp if the only reason is some players "love" it. Also to expect wizards to know every combination or broken combo that is going to come out of new cards is stupid.

The reason i play Legacy is because i can play older broken cards, if i wanted to play new cards i would play standard, extended or what have you.

I assume more people play legacy for these reasons, not because they can play new cards..

[Pastorofmuppets]

I would much rather not have the new cards be limited or held back due to older cards, esp if the only reason is some players "love" it. Also to expect wizards to know every combination or broken combo that is going to come out of new cards is stupid.

I guess this is true. I don't really remember, but I think I might have been one of the people who thought that UG Vengevival was a joke.
Still, even making Vengevine 5/3 and Legendary would've still made it a great card that would've seen tons of play in Standard. Hell, I'd be trying it as an EDH general.
Anyway,



I assume more people play legacy for these reasons, not because they can play new cards..

This.

[Rico Suave]

This thread is amazing. Do you know how long Vengevine Survival was legal before it began to see widespread play? What's amazing is seeing people in this thread who completely missed that deck until we saw someone else play it at a GP, yet you are all here today to tell us that it's Wizard's fault they didn't intensely test every single newly printed card across the entirety of the Eternal card pool. Are you f'ing serious?

[(nameless one)]

Who in their right mind would buy a playset of Time Spiral @35$?!? Don't enourage price gouging and don't buy, people.... You know better than this.

Just to let you know, it's each card, not playset.

[Bardo]

A pity that VV busted such a pillar card in the format since opening day (September 2004), but that's how it goes sometimes. I'm cool with the update.

[jrsthethird]

This thread is amazing. Do you know how long Vengevine Survival was legal before it began to see widespread play? What's amazing is seeing people in this thread who completely missed that deck until we saw someone else play it at a GP, yet you are all here today to tell us that it's Wizard's fault they didn't intensely test every single newly printed card across the entirety of the Eternal card pool. Are you f'ing serious?

This....I had the idea when I saw Vengevine to abuse it with Survival/LED but was too lazy to playtest it.

[Pastorofmuppets]

This thread is amazing. Do you know how long Vengevine Survival was legal before it began to see widespread play? What's amazing is seeing people in this thread who completely missed that deck until we saw someone else play it at a GP, yet you are all here today to tell us that it's Wizard's fault they didn't intensely test every single newly printed card across the entirety of the Eternal card pool. Are you f'ing serious?

I don't see how the players ignoring the deck because they're afraid of new things is linked to Wizards making mistakes like that and not testing Legacy at all.

[johanessen]

The format now sucks.

[MMogg]

The format now rocks.

[Rico Suave]

I don't see how the players ignoring the deck because they're afraid of new things is linked to Wizards making mistakes like that and not testing Legacy at all.

Because the players don't test Legacy either. Ho ho ho!

[Rune]

The format now sucks.

Yes, it's much more fun when one deck is slapping everything else silly.

A format should always have a clear-cut best deck, so we will never have to deal with diversity or any other crap like that.

Damn the DCI for being consistent in their decision making. Have we been lied to all along??? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9771)

[Koby]

Damn the DCI for being consistent in their decision making. Have we been lied to all along??? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9771)

QFF&T = Quoted for Funny & Truthful.

[nedleeds]

Yes, it's much more fun when one deck is slapping everything else silly.

A format should always have a clear-cut best deck, so we will never have to deal with diversity or any other crap like that.

Damn the DCI for being consistent in their decision making. Have we been lied to all along??? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9771)

Wow. Your local legacy metagame must be terrible. Survival Vines is just one of many competitive decks we see every week. Perhaps your local laws prohibit Lion's Eye Diamonds or Infernal Tutor.

... enjoy Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo ...

[DragoFireheart]

The format now rocks.

Yes, yes it does.

Vengevine is still being tested with new cards. It won't be the power-house it was before, but I believe something potent can come from further testing. Keep your eyes on Intuition, Entomb and Buried Alive.

[keys]

Wow. Your local legacy metagame must be terrible. Survival Vines is just one of many competitive decks we see every week. Perhaps your local laws prohibit Lion's Eye Diamonds or Infernal Tutor.

... enjoy Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo ...

Someone's bitter.

[Vacrix]

Clever WotC, clever. They made the right call actually; this or Frantic Search. Clearly, High Tide combo had to get better again. Unfortunately, they picked the combo deck that is vulnerable to creature removal, meaning that Spring Tide players will still have to deal with opposing removal spells and such. Thats why WotC did not unban Frantic Search; Solidarity would have been a less interactive deck with the rest of the format, and they are pro-interaction. I'm surprised I didn't see this happening in advance.

I suspect....
Storm Combo > Survival > Format
Spring Tide = Storm Combo
Survival < Spring Tide
Spring Tide < Counterbalance
Counterbalance < Survival/Zoo/Folk

Further...
Spring Tide/Solidarity + Time Spiral = Balanced Format... in the eyes of WotC. To be honest I'm a little surprised that WotC decided to use combo to curb the influx of aggro control in the format. I'm sure that they printed Ad Nauseum with the knowledge that combo would get better (though not to the extent that it did) to curb the tradition of Aggro control being one of the most dominant deck types in Legacy, but it seems like all they've tried to do to High Tide combo is make it worse. It hasn't received too much since its original design back in the day. Its about time things started moving in the right direction for the deck.

For those of you who don't know... Time Spiral is exactly the kind of spell that makes High Tide combo nuts. It untaps your lands and it draws you a full grip of cards. Will Spring Tide be a consistent turn 3 combo deck again? Probably. Expect a few turn 2's as well when the Tide player draws the nuts.

Please note that Solidarity could also play this card with Quicken. I would certainly play it given how far it sets you ahead during the combo turn. Its the Ad Nauseum of High Tide combo. It might speed the deck up by a full turn actually.

[Rico Suave]

Frantic Search speeds up High Tide by a turn. Time Spiral does not. It just makes it more consistent on turn 4.

[CorpT]

I vote we make a series of complaints until we get everything else powerful banned.

First, we start with Aether Vial. Clearly Merfolk and Goblins will be popular and powerful once Survival is gone. Therefore, we get that banned.

With Vial gone, Counterbalance decks will rise to prominence so our next target should be Top.

After that, without Merfolk and Counter Balance decks to contend with, LED based combo will be the best. Therefore, we'll need to get LED banned.

After that... well, we'll have to see what the next best card is. Probably Tarmogoyf.

Sounds like a great format where all you have to do is lose and complain to get the format fixed.

[markbris]

I suspect....
Storm Combo > Survival > Format
Spring Tide = Storm Combo
Survival < Spring Tide
Spring Tide < Counterbalance
Counterbalance < Survival/Zoo/Folk


I'm curious why you keep mentioning survival here?

[Gheizen64]

Frantic Search speeds up High Tide by a turn. Time Spiral does not. It just makes it more consistent on turn 4.

This. Spiral is a strong card but doesn't accellerate the combo, it just make it more consistent as a resolved Spiral is usually -> win.

[Nidd]

I think most people here are missing that it's not about people complaining, but rather that the DCI shows some consistency in their banning policy.

They ban enablers rather than the "real" threats to the format - They prefer to ban M Tutor instead of Iona/Tendrils/Ad Nauseam/Entomb ans Survival instead of Vengevine/Ooze.

Now flame me for not mindlessly bashing the DCI, I got a flame-proof suit. How do you deal?

[rufus]

Now flame me for not mindlessly bashing the DCI, I got a flame-proof suit. How do you deal?

Nucular wedgie technology? Something that I don't think has been mentioned either is that they're deliberately making creatures more powerful. Getting rid of SotF does allow them a bit more freedom in that regard.

[(nameless one)]

Hopefully with all this creature power creep, time will come that there will be a new version of the old favorites that are considered broken. I guess thats they're way of 'fixing' the reserved list.

Maybe one day, will all this creature power creep, Goyf will be back to $5

[Team America]

Look back at all the threads and post, there are more whining about why survival shouldn't get banned. The DCI made the right choice, that's it.

[(nameless one)]

For those who might be whining because your Survivals tanked...

Theyre currently valued at $35-$40 (from ChannelFireball to StarCityGames)

Y'all should trade your Survivals for Time Spiral (they've reached $50 in some online stores)

Time Spiral Watch updated.

[Nonex]

My Survivals don't repent in the slightiest about all the atrocious combos and locks they performed under my orders. If they can't roam free around Legacy anymore, they'll do so in Vintage.

[(nameless one)]

My Survivals don't repent in the slightiest about all the atrocious combos and locks they performed under my orders. If they can't roam free around Legacy anymore, they'll do so in Vintage.

Woudn't Vengevival be good in Vintage? Wouldn't it be fast enough to compete with whatever fast combo they have. That format has less creature removal too, but then, you'd have to deal with Oath decks.

Maybe it will spawn a new Type1 deck.

[Team America]

In Vintage

Oath > Survival

[Pastorofmuppets]

Because the players don't test Legacy either. Ho ho ho!

Inspired by this post, and after rereading this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14njUwJUg1I
I guess I might as well deal with it. I don't like survival being gone, but that's just how it happens.
Anyway, I don't know if Time Spiral will be good or not. Also, will new Ooze decks be warping enough to not just make this the post-MT world it was before? Because that would suck.
Although now I guess it's easier to test some of SoM's goodies.

[Whippoorwill]

I think most people here are missing that it's not about people complaining, but rather that the DCI shows some consistency in their banning policy.

I was hoping it wouldn't get banned, but honestly I'm not surprised it did. The above is what bothers me the most.

In the reasoning for unbanning Time Spiral, they mention the following:


For example, some cards cause so many matches to run out of time that it can cause a strain on judging and tournament organization, and even force tournaments to finish outside of the normal tournament venue.

Yet CounterTop was untouched which is the biggest offender at causing matches to go to time. One of the players where I play even admits his goal is usually to win the first game and just draw out the 2nd game for a 1-0-1 win. And the problem isn't that he's playing slow, but rather that the amount of library manipulations the deck has, mainly through Top.

[practical joke]

I was hoping it wouldn't get banned, but honestly I'm not surprised it did. The above is what bothers me the most.

In the reasoning for unbanning Time Spiral, they mention the following:



Yet CounterTop was untouched which is the biggest offender at causing matches to go to time. One of the players where I play even admits his goal is usually to win the first game and just draw out the 2nd game for a 1-0-1 win. And the problem isn't that he's playing slow, but rather that the amount of library manipulations the deck has, mainly through Top.

Actually they are probably referring to the possible unbanning of land tax.
Because parfait is a time-consumer.

[ryO!]

Actually they are probably referring to the possible unbanning of land tax.
Because parfait is a time-consumer.

finally, damn i thought i was the only one to find that crystal clear.
Anyway i am pretty disappointed seing Sotf Banned, not that it's surprising though after all the pathetic "tear-jerker" scene we wistnessed. It's sad though, not saying Sotf wasn't on the edge, but it still deserved some more time before banning it, which makes it (the ban) an hasty - wrong - decision.
It's just sad.Oh well ... At least we now know that crying out loud can lead to something. On the other hand let's hope that Time Spiral will give us some meta shift.

[Apple]

Damn. I wonder what deck I should use to beat blecher fish and rock in my meta now survival is banned.

[Shabbaman]

In Vintage

Oath > Survival

And that is what makes me sad: wizards effectively banned Survival from tournament play. I'd think that a card that's supposedly too powerful in Legacy could make a dent in Vintage, but no... Well, maybe in Null rod zoo. It might be worth a try.

[dontbiteitholmes]

For those who might be whining because your Survivals tanked...

Theyre currently valued at $35-$40 (from ChannelFireball to StarCityGames)

Y'all should trade your Survivals for Time Spiral (they've reached $50 in some online stores)

Time Spiral Watch updated.

Oh sweet, you mean the two most expensive places to buy cards on the internet say Survival is still a $35 card? Awesome I guess I'll just go find someone retarded enough to pay $35 for a Survival that didn't already buy one from a dealer or find out what Ebay is. Then I can trade that for the most overpriced card in Legacy. Which will soon be tanking back to $10. Reality check. If you sell your Survivals now on Ebay you will be lucky to get $20. If you want to buy Time Spiral you would be lucky to get them for under $30. Or should I say unlucky because it's unlikely to card will have the impact on the format of Exploration or Intuition, which are both very playable and old rares that don't fetch 1/2 what Time Spiral goes for right now. I get the feeling once the hype dies down unless the card finds a home in a GOOD deck it will plummet back to $10 or so dollars a piece if not lower.

Worst card trading advice I've ever heard on these forums.



Actually they are probably referring to the possible unbanning of land tax.
Because parfait is a time-consumer.

Someone tell them losing in record time because you rely on Land Tax isn't very time consuming.

[zalachan]

I just cannot embrace the idea that wizards create cards the way they do.I can't really see how they even consider printing cards like Ooze before checking the other pools. In the last few sets, they printed Fauna Shaman, Vengevine, Necrotic Ooze, Memnite and f.e. Gigantomancer (bad example, i know, but it 'could' be busted). It's not like they didn't think for a second how those cards would play out together? I mean, they watch the standard pool closely, so they should see that cards go well together, considering Shaman resembles Survival and stuff. And they didn't think of Survival? I just cant believe that at all.
Do they even bother to check legacy by themselves or they just leave the dirty work to some quasi Pros and "Vip" of magic? The guys that promote the new products, Play the game, See the world, Whine about Legacy, Profit.
Seems to me that they print cards for standard in the vein of "Let's give (insert random standard color/strategy here) something good this time. How about other formats? Nah, we will see how it turns out."

[hyperchord24]

It's clear to me that if they cared about the format, they would test cards against cards that were in the format. I've often thought it was a no brainer. "Standard makes us more money so let's stop supporting a format with broken cards that we never want anything to do with again."

But it's not that simple. Sometimes I just wish WotC and the DCI would forget the eternal formats ever existed on days like this.

[nedleeds]

Someone's bitter.

Not bitter, just disappointed that the DCI kowtowed to the least common denominator. I would have liked to see them wait until June. The game would expand, find new decks and then the lemmings that are the majority of players would follow those new decks.

[mujadaddy]

My favorite creature of all time is Mahamoti Djinn 5/6 flier for 4uu. I was so mad when wizards decided to print better creatures, I've been pissed since revised days........
I feel the same way about Sengir Vampire.

[conboy31]

I feel the same way about Sengir Vampire.

Serendib efreet for the early game, control magic for the mid game, and Mahamoti Djinn for the late game...sound about right SlopeeJ?

[Meekrab]

This whole thread made me giggle, starting with the DCI's clueless update and finishing with Time Spiral above $50 a copy when it's never gonna make an impact on anything.

[Arsenal]

Lol at speculators and stores raising the price of Time Spiral to $40-50. And the sad thing is, in 12 months, when it still hasn't seen play anywhere, the stores will still keep Time Spiral at $40-50, curtailing the casual crowds ability to kick around powerful cards on the tabletop.

[FieryBalrog]

The number of people here complaining how Wizards "doesn't test Legacy" is hilarious.

A small pool of people have a hard enough time testing Standard. Players will always, in any game system ever devised, find ways to break the game that the developers never dreamed of, because there's 1000x more of them and they have all the time in the world. A format with 10,000+ cards is not going to be tested, the ban list exists for just this reason. Deal with it.

[ummon]

Jesus Christ! I took a break from MtG for the holidays and Wizards bans SotF??? Goddamnit. They need to stop messing with the format.

As for Time Spiral, don't know if unbanning it was good call, but I sure wish I'd bought that playset for my casual spring tide. :(