Time Spiral

[SurFitOfTheVine]

So, Time Spiral was unbanned. Do you think it will see play? Any predictions on it's future price?

Discuss.

[Leftconsin]

I know with six green mana I was able to do much more damage than draw 7 cards. As for future price, it will never be below ten USD again. Ever. If it doesn't make it into a tournament viable deck: 20. If it does 30-50. Only because it's from Urza's Saga.

[MattH]

If it doesn't make it into a tournament viable deck: 20. If it does 30-50. Only because it's from Urza's Saga.

Those numbers are too high. Compare to Show and Tell, which is like $15 (ebay) or $16-$20 (retail) while seeing some play.

I bought 2 playsets before the internet pulled them. I expect to see my money refunded, but if not...yesss. Also, the Korean Spiral I've been sitting on for the last couple years is looking pretty good right now.

[Aggro_zombies]

Time Spiral is pretty terrible when it can't untap Academy.

I mean, High Tide decks are still incredibly awful even with Time Spiral. Doomsday guarantees a kill while Time Spiral gives you seven random cards and may or may not give your opponent a fresh hand of Forces. The card does nothing in Legacy but will get snapped up because apparently people still haven't learned from the Grim Monolith unbanning.

[Mr.C]

Time Spiral is pretty terrible when it can't untap Academy.

I mean, High Tide decks are still incredibly awful even with Time Spiral. Doomsday guarantees a kill while Time Spiral gives you seven random cards and may or may not give your opponent a fresh hand of Forces. The card does nothing in Legacy but will get snapped up because apparently people still haven't learned from the Grim Monolith unbanning.

Yep, already going for $20. Seems nuts.

Time to sell mine :)

[Pastorofmuppets]

I think my local comic shop has a few. I promised them I'd stop by when I got back for Winter Break, anyway.

[DrJones]

Don't listen to the people telling you that Time Spiral is terrible, they are going through a self-delusion phase due to the banning of Survival. The only reason against buying Time Spirals is that they will probably have to re-ban it in a few months for being totally broken.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Time Spiral gives you seven random cards and may or may not give your opponent a fresh hand of Forces

It's not like FoW can do much against Brain Freeze. Also, 7 new cards should keep the combo going. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Nidd]

The amount of bullshit in this thread is overwhelming.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

The amount of bullshit in this thread is overwhelming.

Care to elaborate?

[Valrina]

Time Spiral is pretty terrible when it can't untap Academy.

I mean, High Tide decks are still incredibly awful even with Time Spiral. Doomsday guarantees a kill while Time Spiral gives you seven random cards and may or may not give your opponent a fresh hand of Forces. The card does nothing in Legacy but will get snapped up because apparently people still haven't learned from the Grim Monolith unbanning.

While I agree that it doesnt make high tide decks the DTB now and it is overhypoed the rest of the post is such a shit. If it resolves it is GG, be sure about that 7 cards will always let the combo roll through 1-2 counters, not to mention the fresh mana. (okok if your opponent doesnt draw fow,fow,fow,fow,daze,daze,counterspell and has 2 untaped islands out.)

besides I play grim monolith it works fine ...not overpowered but fine ... same goes for Spiral it is not overpowered but it will see play in tide decks which are a solid tier 2 choice even if nearly no one plays it...but to be honest it wasnt overplayed in it best days also.

[Cthuloo]

I will be curious to see if it will see play in a non-high tide deck. We don't have academy, but we still have cradle, tomb and city. Plus, a land deck can possibly abuse the card (even if the graveyard reshuffle it's a big drawback). It's an interesting new toy, I don't think it's OP at all, but it will probably affect the format a bit.

[android]

Some kind of joke? Anyone who pays that is a sucker.

http://cgi.ebay.com/4X-X4-MTG-Time-Spiral-Magic-Gathering-Urzas-Saga-/200556797627?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb21ddebb

Although the card is incredibly powerful in what it does, the only place I'm playing it is in a casual multi-player Psychic Possession deck so I can go off and kill them with a Conflagrate. But in my case, I'd much rather see Winds of Change.

[DragoFireheart]

Time Spiral

Cost: 6 mana (untaps some lands)

Does it win you the game on the spot? Nope.

[CorpT]

Time Spiral

Cost: 6 mana (untaps some lands)

Does it win you the game on the spot? Nope.

The same could be said for Ad Nasueum.

[DrJones]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17399-Smart-Burn

[android]

Except that AD does in fact win on the spot 85% of the time.

[Sims]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17399-Smart-Burn

You just linked to a trolled cavius thread as though it was a serious thread...

Do you want people to never take you seriously?

[Justin]

Except that AD does in fact win on the spot 85% of the time.

And costs one mana less than Time Spiral and cannot be countered by Red Elemental Blast.

[Mana Drain]

Time will tell. I think it will definitely "boost" Spring Tides playablity, but that really isn't saying much. Probably a good call on the DCI's part, as even if Spring Tide does turn out good, this will not be the reason for it.

[CorpT]

And costs one mana less than Time Spiral and cannot be countered by Red Elemental Blast.

And doesn't untap land and costs life. They're different cards, we get it. But to say that either doesn't win on the spot is silly. I've played plenty of High Tide and the number of times I lost after resolving a Spiral was negligible. Just like after resolving an Ad Nasuem.

[voltron00x]

Dream Halls into Time Spiral is interesting to me. I doubt Time Spiral breaks the format in half and probably isn't worth buying at the nutty prices you're seeing right now, but I also wouldn't say the card has zero potential, either.

[ddt15]

We all love high tide, but the fact is, it can't win against CB, it can't win against Fish, it can't win against other combo, and Gobs with some REBs/Chalice/Thorn can beat it. Adding Time Spiral doesn't change any of that.

[Justin]

Well, both Ad Nauseum and Time Spiral will win you the game when resolved most of the time. My point was that I'd usually rather have a 5cc spell than does that over a 6cc spell. I'm not sure if Time Spiral is all that attractive to Tendrils combo players. For High Tide players, however, there is little doubt that Time Spiril helps make their deck better. Whether or not it will elevate that deck to "Decks to Beat" status remains to be seen. I have my doubts. I think that this is probably a "safe" unbanning.

[chags]

Actually the one thing I see going for spring tide is that if you resolve your high tide you are much less susceptible to counterbalance, the deck runs on so many different CMCs and the key cards (turnabout and timespiral) are too high for counterbalance to hit regularly. Of course that leaves you with the problem of finding a way to resolve high tide. Arguably Gobos with chalice/thorn, fish, and counterbalance are all just as hard to beat for ANT, TES, and Belcher so that seems like a bit of a funny argument considering combo is by no means dead in legacy even with these cards around.

I don't think Time Spiral is enough to make spring tide tier 1 but if the deck resolves spiral from my bit of testing last night/this morning it is pretty much game. Yes it does cost 6 when Ad Nauseum costs 5 but 6 off a resolved high tide is not very hard to hit. Again, I don't think the deck will be broken but it will see play.

[dahcmai]

High Tide decks will make a sort of comeback, though I can't see them pushing through Merfolk very easily when that deck is poised to make a nice comeback now that Survival is out of the way. Tempo based decks gained a lot from that banning.

Time Spiral is only good for combo and that's it. It wasn't even used for anything else during it's small stint in Standard. I don't see the card being worth owning a set really. Unless you have a thing for High tide decks I guess. I'm surprised in only the fact that the DCI would give combo another tool to play with. I place it at $15 for the sheer fact it's from Saga in the end.

[JamieW89]

I bought a fair few for €6.50 but the dealer cancelled (although he did give me some store credit in return, which I guess is nice).
I was expecting to sell for €15-20 now and expecting them to drop to 10-12 eventually.

[MGC_player]

I personally think Time Spiral has potential in a non High Tide deck, especially if lands produce more than 1 mana like X-post decks. The potential for chaining them is there ending with a hard cast Emrakul. Perhaps a U/g or U/r 12 post deck could be available in the future.

[Aggro_zombies]

I personally think Time Spiral has potential in a non High Tide deck, especially if lands produce more than 1 mana like X-post decks. The potential for chaining them is there ending with a hard cast Emrakul. Perhaps a U/g or U/r 12 post deck could be available in the future.
Except you could already sort of do this with Mind Over Matter, Turnabout, Snap, and Cloud of Faeries. Hell, if you really were desperate, you could run stuff like Treachery. And then your 8Post deck would lose to Wasteland or not drawing enough posts because you're actually trying to cast Emrakul versus Show and Telling or Sneak Attacking him into play.

The issue is that this card doesn't help High Tide decks enough to make them any better than Tier Worse Than Dragon Stompy, mostly because High Tide decks are themselves outdated combo relics. Most of the other storm combo options in the format are simply better because they are just as stable but go off sooner, require less storm, and don't randomly lose to the Sneak'n'Show player because oops, 4 Emrakul. It might be a random "build around me" card, but whatever deck builds around it is going to have to realize that it will absolutely have to combo off with fewer than six lands and may or may not need a secondary engine to enable Time Spiral. Whether those decks are actually competitive instead of being Tier Fun is another issue altogether.

[Gheizen64]

Playable in enchantress? Seems solid to me in there, need to try a list asap. If you resolve one it's game 90% of the times.

[Aggro_zombies]

Playable in enchantress? Seems solid to me in there, need to try a list asap. If you resolve one it's game 90% of the times.
Why on Earth would Enchantress:

1) Want to play blue?
2) Want to play a non-enchantment card that isn't a static draw effect?
3) Care about untapping lands?

This seems mind-blowingly awful in that deck, unless you're trying some sort of bizarre, white-blue Dream Halls Combo Enchantress.

[Julian23]

Ain't gonna "work" in Enchantress. Mainly due to the fact that it doesn't do anything for the deck that Early Harvest wouldn't do expect for maybe untapping Serra's Sanctum, which is BY FAR not worth the cost.

[Gocho]

I personally think Time Spiral has potential in a non High Tide deck, especially if lands produce more than 1 mana like X-post decks. The potential for chaining them is there ending with a hard cast Emrakul. Perhaps a U/g or U/r 12 post deck could be available in the future.

Playing 6-7 permanents
There are only 37% of chaining a 2nd one and 25% of chaining the 3rd. It's very low percentages to make a deck that want to chain them every game.

[android]

I have a million ways to untap Sanctum, in fact I do run one in my enchantress deck.

Deserted Temple

I find that white is not usually the color I need a lot of so I'm on the fence over removing it. I keep thinking there must be a mono white enchantress deck that would be competitive.

[rufus]

Playing 6-7 permanents
There are only 37% of chaining a 2nd one and 25% of chaining the 3rd. It's very low percentages to make a deck that want to chain them every game.

You can try to chain Time Spiral->Intuition+Mana->Time Spiral, or try to use Twincast and friends, but it's very :u: hungry and more than a little hinkey.

[blacklotus3636]

Time spiral seems fun until you remember it costs 6 to cast. I remember years ago it was banned but in a format where natural order wins the game for 4 mana time spiral seems slow. The only way I think it works is if you can find a way to cheat it into play like dream halls, dark ritual etc. The problem there though is that we already have a 4 mana draw 7 that noone uses. I think time spiral is going the same way replenish went, a narrow use for a deck or two that helps it tremendously but nothing more than that.

On a seperate note about survival I feel a little irritated by the banning. I've played survival for years and it was fine because it took so long to kill someone with it. The thing that made survival busted was vengevine. Before vengevine it took 3-4 turns after a resolved survival to win and thats if you weren't disrupted. A tempo based deck like faeries could race you and possibly win. After vengevine you were almost guranteed a win within 1-2 turns with a resolved survival even if you are disrupted. Banning vengevine would have been better in my opinion. Even after banning survival vengevine is still pretty busted on its own.

[Pippin]

Hm, to be hones Time spiral does indeed look like a card that could change quite a few decks.

Maybe TES that wouldn't play Ad nauseam, but instead 3 Time spirals main + 1 in side to fetch with burning wish? That deck could maybe even run forces alongside brainstorms and ponders/preordains, and ramp through rituals to spiral mana?

[JCLe]

Hm, to be hones Time spiral does indeed look like a card that could change quite a few decks.

Maybe TES that wouldn't play Ad nauseam, but instead 3 Time spirals main + 1 in side to fetch with burning wish? That deck could maybe even run forces alongside brainstorms and ponders/preordains, and ramp through rituals to spiral mana?

Have you even ever played TES ?

Why would it replace Diminishing Returns in the side when Time Reversal didn't even do it...

Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't see Time Spiral > Ad Nauseam.

+2 CMC makes it worse than DR, and you would never untap 6 lands with it

[jrsthethird]

I have a million ways to untap Sanctum, in fact I do run one in my enchantress deck.

Deserted Temple

I find that white is not usually the color I need a lot of so I'm on the fence over removing it. I keep thinking there must be a mono white enchantress deck that would be competitive.

Mesa Enchantress
Kor Spiritdancer


Hm, to be hones Time spiral does indeed look like a card that could change quite a few decks.

Maybe TES that wouldn't play Ad nauseam, but instead 3 Time spirals main + 1 in side to fetch with burning wish? That deck could maybe even run forces alongside brainstorms and ponders/preordains, and ramp through rituals to spiral mana?

So how does TES get enough lands that Time Spiral becomes better than D.Returns? Are you running Bubbling Muck, stompy lands, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth??

[Scordata]

My team and I are in the lab trying to crack this card as we speak.
The mana cost is very prohibitive, but its so bomby we feel its worth it.

You guys should head over to the spring tide forums,
some people are already posting some gnarly lists.

[Pippin]

Have you even ever played TES ?

Why would it replace Diminishing Returns in the side when Time Reversal didn't even do it...

Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't see Time Spiral > Ad Nauseam.

+2 CMC makes it worse than DR, and you would never untap 6 lands with it


To continue in the same tone...

Have you even ever read Time Reversal and Time Spiral? Are they the same cards?

+2 CMC makes Time Spiral worse than Returns, but with untapping lands it makes it cheaper, not to mention one could play something like City of Traitors in that deck...

This is pure theorycrafting (so no need to jump like sharks), but this combo deck wouldn't have to play like ant or go for as fast as possible Ad Nauseam (spiral in this case), but could develop its board a bit more (with help of forces) and then go full out and combo since life total is not a factor anymore...

ps. and yes, I have played both Ant and TES and variants more than enough ... for whatever its worth to you personally :rolleyes:

[Aggro_zombies]

+2 CMC makes Time Spiral worse than Returns, but with untapping lands it makes it cheaper, not to mention one could play something like City of Traitors in that deck...
Um...

Typically combo decks using D Returns are Wishing for them, which means the total up-front investment for Time Spiral is eight mana. Put another way, that means you need to have six mana available to even cast Time Spiral after you Wish for it. Untapping lands (all, what, two of them you have in play?) doesn't change the fact that Time Spiral requires you to generate two more mana than D Returns does. That's why the Time Spiral / Time Reversal comparison works: both have better effects than Diminishing Returns, but the extra mana you have to pay to cast them in the first place is prohibitive.

Also, why would you want to play City of Traitors in a three color deck where most of the spells cost one or two mana?

[rufus]

So what about running Time Spiral/whatever -> Molten Psyche or something similar?

[Michael Keller]

So what about running Time Spiral/whatever -> Molten Psyche or something similar?

Winds of Change > Molten Psyche (but that's not saying very much).

[Fossil4182]

I guess the best way to determine how good this will be is to figure out what decks it could possibly go in. After that, its a question of what problems are solved by playing Time Spiral. Some form of a High Tide deck seems to be the intuitive fit, but I don't know if Time Spiral increases the competitiveness of the deck. What are the reasons why High Tide decks have fallen out of favor? I would assume because Tendrils based combo decks are a turn faster and still have protection. The counterspells in High Tide decks are nice, but I don't know if it pushes the deck to the point where it is competitive again.

[Barook]

So what about running Time Spiral/whatever -> Molten Psyche or something similar?
Woudn't you also need something like Prosperity to power up the draws for maximum damage?

[JCLe]

To continue in the same tone...

Have you even ever read Time Reversal and Time Spiral? Are they the same cards?

+2 CMC makes Time Spiral worse than Returns, but with untapping lands it makes it cheaper, not to mention one could play something like City of Traitors in that deck...

This is pure theorycrafting (so no need to jump like sharks), but this combo deck wouldn't have to play like ant or go for as fast as possible Ad Nauseam (spiral in this case), but could develop its board a bit more (with help of forces) and then go full out and combo since life total is not a factor anymore...

ps. and yes, I have played both Ant and TES and variants more than enough ... for whatever its worth to you personally :rolleyes:


Um...

Typically combo decks using D Returns are Wishing for them, which means the total up-front investment for Time Spiral is eight mana. Put another way, that means you need to have six mana available to even cast Time Spiral after you Wish for it. Untapping lands (all, what, two of them you have in play?) doesn't change the fact that Time Spiral requires you to generate two more mana than D Returns does. That's why the Time Spiral / Time Reversal comparison works: both have better effects than Diminishing Returns, but the extra mana you have to pay to cast them in the first place is prohibitive.

Also, why would you want to play City of Traitors in a three color deck where most of the spells cost one or two mana?

Kinda beat me to it, I don't even know what else to say at this point...

I don't know how you've been playing Ad Nauseam decks if you would like to replace that card with a worse version of DR.

Blue untapping decks already exists aka high tide variants (High Tide or Solidarity) Those are the kind of decks that we can say for now that might profit from this unbanning (although they will probably not because it means more folk and the card might not really be that good), and maybe some old and somewhat weaker (for now) turboland variants (upheaval or scapeshift).

It's annoying to see people ''theorycrafting'' about decks that they don't even know about..


Personally its more annoying to see people jumping like sharks and playing card down in every topic possible - I would presume this is because they don't like the hype and sudden price jump... :really:

I apologize to the "allmighty player of TES" - our JCLe - for not including "TES/ANT like deck" instead of just TES in my original post

I'm done arguing if your gonna act like a 12 years old, tes/ant like deck = ad nauseam deck whether you like it or not. Maybe a different storm archetype would be possible, but why would this replace AN... I could care less about the price jump of a card I'm not gonna play.
It's not required to be the best TES player in the world to know what I've been saying, I'm clearly not the best and never said so

[Pippin]

It's annoying to see people ''theorycrafting'' about decks that they don't even know about..

Personally its more annoying to see people jumping like sharks and playing card down in every topic possible - I would presume this is because they don't like the hype and sudden price jump... :really:

I apologize to the "allmighty player of TES" - our JCLe - for not including "TES/ANT like deck" instead of just TES in my original post

[Mr.C]

So what about running Time Spiral/whatever -> Molten Psyche or something similar?

Cerebral Vortex would be better.

[kiblast]

Mesa Enchantress
Kor Spiritdancer


Since when crappy cards like Kor Spiritdancer are played in Enchantress? I hope you're joking... There can't be a monoW build as solid and fast as WG is.

By the way, I don't think TS will be so played. At least in something different than Spring tide. But it would be fun to see the rise of a new storm combo based on TS.

[Forbiddian]

Except that AD does in fact win on the spot 85% of the time.

Well, you get a new 7 and you get 1-4 extra mana (plus LED cracks if you can fit those in), depending on the time it is in the game. Obviously you'd have to design a deck around the constraint that it has to be able to win with that most of the time.

Plus, against aggro decks, you get about an extra turn because you don't have to go off with >10 life left.


Obvious drawbacks: You pretty much have to resolve a chant, since you're giving your opp 7 cracks at fireblasts, force of wills, dazes, and any countermagic they have mana for.

You can't even go like:

Chant.
Force.
Ad Nauseam now that you don't have Force, gg.


I think it's pretty much garbage, but maybe it could be broken. I really don't think it's going to be worth $50 in a week.

[ivanpei]

It will be a great spring tide staple. You are now no longer dependant on snap-cloud of faeries for untap. Its meditate/ideas + cloud of faeries in 1 card. Spring tide was pretty shit because snap targetting faeries can be foiled by any removal on cloud. With timespiral, the deck is more robust and not so weak to removal and folding to crap like swords and gempalm incinerator. However spring tide is a very weak deck to begin with. I would say it bumps spring tide up from Tier 2 to Tier 1.5.

However, like forbidian said: It is a 6 cmc diminishing/timetwister which is bad. If anyone plays vintage here and has experience with Jar/timetwister/wheel of fortune effects, you will know that mirror draw sevens are THE WORST of the combo engines. I played TPS in vintage and I always try to avoid mirror draw sevens as much as possible. The best wins were mind's desire, yagwmowth's will, bargain and necro. The best mirror 7 was Jar where you can still recover and it's not "all in". Anything packing force will have a good time against timespiral decks. Like any combo deck, you're highly likely to draw a bunch of cantrips/mana cards of the spiral and some business like another spiral/meditate and maybe force. People who know how to play against will only attack the meditate/spiral. If you had 6 mana in ANT/TES, chant, ad nauseum is GG. Also TES prefers diminishing because it is common to wish for diminishing T2 then T3 go off. If you were are playing gemstone mines, the untapping is pretty crappy. Also getting to 6 mana is a challenge. You will be unlikely to be untapping 3 or more lands. IMO diminishing is better than spiral in TES.

[median]

The one good thing about this draw seven though is that it empties the graveyards. Thats key in the dredge match and a few others, just think about what new horizions clock is going to look like after you resolve time spiral, (0/0 terravores).

[kiblast]

The one good thing about this draw seven though is that it empties the graveyards. Thats key in the dredge match and a few others, just think about what new horizions clock is going to look like after you resolve time spiral, (0/0 terravores).

Umh, I can't see how exactly turn 4 or 6 grave hate can help you beating dredge. I mean, if the dredge player did not win in his first 4-6 turns, you , the Spring Tide player,are supposed to win anyway. With Time Spiral or without it. Against NH is different since they're packing Stifle+ Daze, and Force of will, so basically is all up to you in avoiding counters or beating the counter war. But after you cast Spiral, and for some reason you scoop, don't worry, because their Terravores and and Kotr will be 4/4s again in 2 turns...so I don't think the ''grave shrinking'' power of Time Spiral is SO important. I mean, it is different from vintage, where a Turn 1-2 Twister against Dredge can be an effective weapon against em.

[Meekrab]

You just linked to a trolled cavius thread as though it was a serious thread...

Do you want people to never take you seriously?
He thinks Force of Will should be banned, I'm pretty sure being taken seriously on this forum is NOT one of his worries.

Anyway, I don't think there's a current Legacy deck that Spiral just slips into. The whole 'shuffle and draw 7 new cards' thing kinda prevents advanced planning. It _might_ find an application as a 'whoa shit I fucked up' reset button in Solidarity, but if you mess up with solidarity you generally don't have 9 mana to wish for a solution...

[TheyCallMeTim]

Its meditate/ideas + cloud of faeries in 1 card.

Just FYI:

Reset ->Meditate ->Meditate = 4UUUU

Except you can't play Reset with sorceries, your opponent gets cards (6), and of course you keep your next 2 turns. Yeah, I know, entirely different situation. But it does provide a perspective on casting cost and relative power of the cards in question.

[Forbiddian]

Just FYI:

Reset ->Meditate ->Meditate = 4UUUU

Except you can't play Reset with sorceries, your opponent gets cards (6), and of course you keep your next 2 turns. Yeah, I know, entirely different situation. But it does provide a perspective on casting cost and relative power of the cards in question.

I think there's a huge danger in that you don't get to hold onto any draw or counter material.

That means every time you cast Time Spiral, even if it generates for you basically limitless mana, you still need to dig your way to draw material and enough protection and eventually a kill card. I wouldn't be surprised if Spring Tide decks goldfish the fuck out of everything, but once you start throwing Forces into the mix for the opposition, resolving a Time Spiral is more a nailbiter than a game clincher.

They have 7 cracks at getting a new Force.
You have 7 cracks at getting enough gas to keep going (esp. through a Force this gets hard).

If you have to Time Spiral multiple times, your probability to fizzle just from draw material compounds (although fizzling on mana doesn't seem likely if you got a High Tide or two out).


I can't imagine your fizzle probability against a Force of Will deck is any less than 30%, and that's just not acceptable for paying 4UU (which is hard enough to get through a Force of Will in the first place).

[ActionJunkie]

I miss the good old days when High School Newbs were smart enough to understand the power/efficiency of Powder Keg and Time Spiral.

These days... everyone wants broken cards that require little or no thinking with explicit returns.

Sure some see the potential w/ TS outside of combo but most don't have a clue how to cast TS and get "free card advantage". Another good example is the lack of main-decked Ratchet Bomb in T2 (other than the Pros' World decks).

Time Spiral will be a bitter higher than other combarable Urza's Saga cards because the supply was strangley low (before 12/20). Also if you notice most that dumped them on eBay this week were in played condition. Very possible Near-Mint, unplayed TS's could level out $30 - $50 depending on how much they are used/demanded.

[Oiolosse]

I have never played with or against Spring Tide but the argument that the opponent has a good chance at drawing Force (and other counter magic) is important to consider. So, would running Orim's Chant/Silence be useful? At least as SB against force/control. Thanks!

[Dark Ritual]

Look, in a time spiral deck, you will run 4 FoW. Without question. So the argument that your opponent might draw FoW and destroy your combo is only true if you yourself don't draw a FoW. The fact that time spiral is an engine and ritual at the same time is obscenely good in high tide decks. People just don't realize it yet.

[Tammit67]

Look, in a time spiral deck, you will run 4 FoW. Without question. So the argument that your opponent might draw FoW and destroy your combo is only true if you yourself don't draw a FoW. The fact that time spiral is an engine and ritual at the same time is obscenely good in high tide decks. People just don't realize it yet.

Yeah, but drawing your forces could also ruin your combo. Drawing too much protection in the new 7 is detrimental, as would also be having to pitch a spell to deal with our opoponents countermagic post spiral. Time Spiral is very good at what it does, but the symmetry kills its viablity.

[Rico Suave]

Yeah, but drawing your forces could also ruin your combo. Drawing too much protection in the new 7 is detrimental, as would also be having to pitch a spell to deal with our opoponents countermagic post spiral. Time Spiral is very good at what it does, but the symmetry kills its viablity.

I've found that drawing a new hand of 7 and untapping basically all my lands, especially after a High Tide has already resolved, usually results in being able to beat Force of Will should my opponent draw it.

Consider for a moment that you are the one who is going to lead the threats. How is your opponent going to know what to counter out of a fresh hand of 7? If you lead with a 2nd High Tide and they let it resolve, you can just hard cast Force. If they counter the Tide, you still have 6 scary looking cards left in your hand. Once the High Tide deck starts reaching critical mass the only way it really loses is through variance, which is admittedly a serious problem.

[Tammit67]

I've found that drawing a new hand of 7 and untapping basically all my lands, especially after a High Tide has already resolved, usually results in being able to beat Force of Will should my opponent draw it.

Consider for a moment that you are the one who is going to lead the threats. How is your opponent going to know what to counter out of a fresh hand of 7? If you lead with a 2nd High Tide and they let it resolve, you can just hard cast Force. If they counter the Tide, you still have 6 scary looking cards left in your hand. Once the High Tide deck starts reaching critical mass the only way it really loses is through variance, which is admittedly a serious problem.

The variance, admittedly, is my primary concern, not opposing countermagic. I simply trying to refute the quoted post