So Many Insane Plays -- Decoding the DCI

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=1327

Blurb:



The DCI is a body composed of some of the smartest people in Magic. Unfortunately, intelligence does not entail the ability to communicate ideas or thoughts clearly or effectively. Tom LaPille was a notable addition to the staff of Wizards of the Coast, not simply because of his accomplishments in Magic, but because of his ability to communicate the groupthink of a nest of brainiacs to the outside world. With notable speed Tom became the voice of Wizards R&D as he took over the reins of the column titled Latest Developments. This is not to say that Erik Lauer, the individual responsible for explaining the most recent changes to the Banned and Restricted List, has not explained the changes clearly or effectively. However, further elaboration or insight would be helpful. The implications of the most recent B/R list announcement reach Vintage as well as Legacy. Permit me to attempt to decode the DCI…

Also, I argued for the unbanning of Time Spiral this past March. I held a poll on SCG, and here's what I wrote there:


Time Spiral

The argument for unbanning Time Spiral isn't that, like Mind Over Matter, it won't see any play. Mind Over Matter was unbanned and I don't think it's seen a moment of competitive play since. It's true that Dream Halls was unbanned and actually won a major European tournament, but it's mostly a joke deck in the U.S. Its legality is just proof that 'interesting things' can happen in Legacy, but it's nothing to fear. It's an option for people who like to play with cool toys.

Time Spiral is a card that I believe would be good for Legacy. The truth is that there is no serious Storm combo deck in American Legacy. I realize that Belcher combo gets a lot of attention in the U.S., but how often has it made Top 8 at an SCG Open? Once? Twice? And I realize that a few Ad Nauseam decks made Top 8 at the last GP, but Ad Nauseam decks are very poor performers in the U.S. SCG Opens, especially relative to their presence in the field.

Time Spiral would offer another option for Legacy Storm that isn't reliant on Ad Nauseam, or jank like Doomsday or Diminishing Returns. Time Spiral and Ad Nauseam can't be played in the same deck for obvious reasons.

Time Spiral is a genuine storm engine, but it doesn't raise the concerns that make Storm a problem. Specifically, Time Spiral is slow. At six mana, it's not a spell that is going to be cast on turn 1 or turn 2, or even on turn 3 (barring a god draw). That's why Time Spiral is okay to unban.

To even cast Time Spiral, you have to generate 6 mana. With High Tide, you are looking at turn 3 at the earliest, and you'll require something else besides, such as a Cloud of Faeries to generate the sixth mana. You could do it with Dark Rituals, but then you won't get the full benefit of the untap, and find yourself pressured in trying to combo out post-Time Spiral.

For that reason, realistically, we are looking at turn 4 before this card is going to be cast. Consider old High Tide decks:

Extended High Tide
Kai Budde

16 Island
4 Thawing Glaciers
3 Volcanic Island
4 High Tide
3 Frantic Search
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
1 Palinchron
3 Stroke of Genius
2 Arcane Denial
1 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor

Frantic Search is banned in Legacy, so that would make this deck even slower. Reset can't be used with Time Spiral, since Time Spiral is a sorcery.

The natural home for Time Spiral would be Spring Tide:

Spring Tide
Suggested by Stephen Menendian on 2010-03-28 as a potential deck for Legacy
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19052_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Six_Cards_To_Unban_In_Legacy.html
Print this deck!
Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Cloud of Faeries


Instants
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Meditate
4 Snap
3 Turnabout

Sorceries
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
3 Time Spiral

Basic Lands
16 Island
Sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
1 Counterspell
2 Echoing Truth
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Remand
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Trickbind
1 Twincast
1 Wipe Away


I could imagine a slightly faster variant with Bubbling Muck and Dark Rituals, but I’m not sure it would be any stronger or more consistent, just another trade off of speed/consistency. Legacy is so dominated by tempo decks, it would be fun to see cards like Time Spiral and Land Tax unbanned to provide genuine alternative options, albeit weaker, to the standard aggro-control or aggro-tempo decks that are so common.

[Ben]

Good to see you back Steve,
Thanks for the great article for my holiday reading :)

[Mark Sun]

I think the one of the Vengevine-less Ooze Survival builds the explanation was referring to was the one that won the Thursday Legacy Event at Worlds: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds10/1209legacy

As I stated before, they probably overlooked the 3 MD Aven Mindcensors, I would probably attribute that build's success to three cards that crush to mirror in the MD just as much as the Ooze combo itself. The pilot had a pretty good idea what he was doing, I would imagine.

[CorpT]

I think the one of the Vengevine-less Ooze Survival builds the explanation was referring to was the one that won the Thursday Legacy Event at Worlds: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds10/1209legacy

As I stated before, they probably overlooked the 3 MD Aven Mindcensors, I would probably attribute that build's success to three cards that crush to mirror in the MD just as much as the Ooze combo itself. The pilot had a pretty good idea what he was doing, I would imagine.

It's too bad no one else was allowed to run Aven Mindcensor until that tournament. That could have been a good card to run to stop Survival.

[Karhumies]

It's too bad no one else was allowed to run Aven Mindcensor until that tournament. That could have been a good card to run to stop Survival.

AFAIK, Aven Mindcensor was widely played all over Europe, incl. GP Gothenburg's Legacy side event (which I participated in). If the US players overlooked this TecH vs Survival, it's no wonder it got so successful in SCG tournaments. Ironically, the most efficient way to find Aven Mindcensor was to run Survival yourself, though, which may have been among the many reasons for SotF banning.

[Valrina]

I even saw decks running Aven and Leonin when surival got that strong.

I am perfectly fine with the ban but I think the reaon the european metagame adopted better was:

- Strom was stronger here already before the surival hype
- Surival was a classic archetype in Europe, while not that heavily played I saw easily over 15+ different surivalbuilds here over the years, it was never dominant but always a force you had to be prepared for in the last 4+ years
- Dredge had some strong showings while the rising of GW Sur shortly before VV so people where about to pack tons of gravehate to hate Dredge out anyway which splashed on surival

I think the surival ban was good because with every set you print at the now common creaturepowerlevel you break it more and more and it gets unhealthy more and more.

Still the differenc ein results shows clearly to me why you shouldnt just look at the SCG as a breakdown of the current meta.

[Shabbaman]

I didn't want to get into the huge discussion that followed your previous article, but are you now writing for Eternal-central? I noticed you weren't writing for SCG for a while, but I like that your articles are open to the public again. I doubt you still need to be told that you are a good writer, but still: I like your articles ;)

[Lemnear]

I was free to express my doubts for the justification on the wizards site, via mail and sum it up in a comment below stephen's article.

[Mark Sun]

It's too bad no one else was allowed to run Aven Mindcensor until that tournament. That could have been a good card to run to stop Survival.

Lmao, what an embarrassing turnout for Americans. A lot of people did know about the tech, including myself who played 2 copies in my 75 (1/1 split), but I don't recall seeing much of this card in the 5K data. How many g1's do you think this list stole when it had 3 copies of it in the MD? I hear winning 1 of 2 to secure a match win is pretty good.

[Lemnear]

mindscensor is another new threat to survival decks that never got the time to show it's power ... exept winning worlds

[FoolofaTook]

mindscensor is another new threat to survival decks that never got the time to show it's power ... exept winning worlds

Aven Mindcensor is opponent only. That just makes it part of the new Survival toolbox once people started using it in any significant numbers. First Survival would still be the dominant factor in who won the mirror.

[CorpT]

Aven Mindcensor is opponent only. That just makes it part of the new Survival toolbox once people started using it in any significant numbers. First Survival would still be the dominant factor in who won the mirror.

That's because you're only allowed to play a single Mindcensor in any deck. If you were able to play more than one Mindcensor in a deck, this might not be the case.

[Sims]

That's because you're only allowed to play a single Mindcensor in any deck. If you were able to play more than one Mindcensor in a deck, this might not be the case.

How does this make any sense?

[thecrav]

This just in: Aven Mindcensor is on the legacy restricted list.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/b/bf/Lolwutpear.jpg

[conboy31]

Thanks for the article. It would be refreshing and insightful for more information to be provided regarding the bannings and unbannings of cards. As well as perspective on the formats that they are trying to sculpt or actively shape.

Edit- Additionally they could claim that their rubrics are subject to change in the future (obviously) but they are operating under xyz premises presently.

[LennonMarx]

mindscensor is another new threat to survival decks that never got the time to show it's power ... exept winning world's legacy side event

Fixed that for you. I mean, it's cool that someone made a survival deck to beat the mirror. That would be a great metagama, huh? Survival, anti-survival Survival, storm, and 4AvenMindsencor4LeoninArbitor4SupressionField.dec.

[FoolofaTook]

That's because you're only allowed to play a single Mindcensor in any deck. If you were able to play more than one Mindcensor in a deck, this might not be the case.

So, having the option to play white and x Aven Mindcensors if you want to beat Survival is better than playing Survival and 1 Aven Mindcensor for the mirror? When the Survival deck is clearly a better deck against the field than any deck playing x Aven Mindcensors that does not also play Survival?

One of the things that I've learned from playing Legacy over the years is that bad hate bears are still bad unless you're playing exactly the opponent they're good against. 1 Aven Mindcensor is a necessary sacrifice in a Survival-fueled meta. 4 are likely a disaster waiting to happen.

[Lemnear]

Aven Mindcensor is opponent only. That just makes it part of the new Survival toolbox once people started using it in any significant numbers. First Survival would still be the dominant factor in who won the mirror.

I know that mindscensor does ... it's a way to battle the continious search of fetchlands or survival. The fact it was run by a Survival deck to combat other Survival doesn't prove me wrong.

[JACO]

How does this make any sense?

It's a joke people! That's CorpT's sense of humor, and if people had actually been metagaming and adjusting cards properly (ie more Mindcensors, Spell Snares, Storm combo, etc.) we probably wouldn't seen Survival on the banned list.

[Rico Suave]

Mindcensor is like Krosan Grip. It looks like an answer to Survival, but it's really not.

It's also not a surprise that people who think Mindcensor is good against Survival also think that Survival wasn't a problem.

[Crysthorn]

Mindcensor is like Krosan Grip. It looks like an answer to Survival, but it's really not.
This.


It's also not a surprise that people who think Mindcensor is good against Survival also think that Survival wasn't a problem.
Most of these people probably have never played against a competent Survival pilot, that's why.

[SpikeyMikey]

So, having the option to play white and x Aven Mindcensors if you want to beat Survival is better than playing Survival and 1 Aven Mindcensor for the mirror? When the Survival deck is clearly a better deck against the field than any deck playing x Aven Mindcensors that does not also play Survival?

One of the things that I've learned from playing Legacy over the years is that bad hate bears are still bad unless you're playing exactly the opponent they're good against. 1 Aven Mindcensor is a necessary sacrifice in a Survival-fueled meta. 4 are likely a disaster waiting to happen.

Except Mindcensor isn't bad. Oh, it's a bit underpowered, which is why it doesn't see play; it's not a clock by any means. But it's effective against a wide variety of decks. Ever see a Mindcensor in response to IT or a Doomsday? Know how scary NO--> Noble Hierarch is? And VV's not dead. It's less resilient, but more explosive with the Entomb/Intuition builds. Survival was good, but it was slow, by it's very nature.

[Lemnear]

Mindcensor is like Krosan Grip. It looks like an answer to Survival, but it's really not.

It's also not a surprise that people who think Mindcensor is good against Survival also think that Survival wasn't a problem.

Hi, Rico

Didn't we pass the this level of discussion? I heared this song the last months: Enchantment-hate is no solution, graveyard removal isn't, blocking tutoring isn't, maindecking hate isn't, metagaming isn't .... Blah blah

Ban survival, cuz sideboarding 6 (sometimes not even good) cards (like the slow krosan grip or the weak gy-hate fairy maccabre) doesn't mean to beat survival at 80%+ Of the time? Seriously?

DCI: "according to SCG data: YES!"

[Karhumies]

Mindcensor is like Krosan Grip. It looks like an answer to Survival, but it's really not.

It's also not a surprise that people who think Mindcensor is good against Survival also think that Survival wasn't a problem.

To quote myself from before:

Ironically, the most efficient way to find Aven Mindcensor was to run Survival yourself, though, which may have been among the many reasons for SotF banning.

What I essentially meant by this statement was - and still is - this:
It's not that Survival could not be taken down by hate, it's that it took too many slots from MD/SB (for normally subpar cards like Aven Mindcensor) to remain competitive against the rest of the field. Unless you were running Survival yourself - in which case you could efficiently either tutor for the hatebear, or throw away the non-relevant MD hatebears to tutor for something more relevant in the MU. In effect, people were (rather successfully, I may add) fighting fire with fire, which is never a healthy sign.

[FoolofaTook]

To quote myself from before:


What I essentially meant by this statement was - and still is - this:
It's not that Survival could not be taken down by hate, it's that it took too many slots from MD/SB (for normally subpar cards like Aven Mindcensor) to remain competitive against the rest of the field. Unless you were running Survival yourself - in which case you could efficiently either tutor for the hatebear, or throw away the non-relevant MD hatebears to tutor for something more relevant in the MU. In effect, people were (rather successfully, I may add) fighting fire with fire, which is never a healthy sign.

Well put and how I should have described my point. Being forced to play otherwise subpar cards to try to handle a dominant deck that is playing very strong cards is almost always a sign that something is amiss in the meta, having those subpar cards be most efficiently played in the very decks that they are trying to take down is a blaring, honking signal that something is very wrong.

[Rico Suave]

Hi, Rico

Didn't we pass the this level of discussion? I heared this song the last months: Enchantment-hate is no solution, graveyard removal isn't, blocking tutoring isn't, maindecking hate isn't, metagaming isn't .... Blah blah

Ban survival, cuz sideboarding 6 (sometimes not even good) cards (like the slow krosan grip or the weak gy-hate fairy maccabre) doesn't mean to beat survival at 80%+ Of the time? Seriously?

DCI: "according to SCG data: YES!"

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I was merely trying to point out that a card like Aven Mindcensor, on the draw, doesn't actually stop someone from playing Survival on turn 2 and going nuts all over the place.

In a sense, it's sort of like trying to use a 3 mana counterspell to stop a 2 mana threat. What is the purpose of an answer if it isn't fast enough to answer the card it is intended to stop?

I'm not saying Mindcensor is a bad card. And there will be times that Mindcensor does stop them from using Survival, like if they are in the midgame and topdeck it while we have plenty of mana to cast Mindcensor. But I just wanted to try and point out that even if everyone was playing Mindcensor it wouldn't have stopped Survival from being worth banning.

[Hanni]

But I just wanted to try and point out that even if everyone was playing Mindcensor it wouldn't have stopped Survival from being worth banning.


Except that Vengevine is the card that is actually broken.

[Rico Suave]

Vengevine isn't broken by T2 standards. This is Legacy.

[Tammit67]

Vengevine isn't broken by T2 standards. This is Legacy.

I'm quite sure I don't know what you are implying

[emidln]

Mindcensor isn't a very good answer to Survival for the same reason it's not a good answer to Doomsday or Infernal Tutor. All three of those are likely to be played before you can cast Mindcensor. Sure, it might screw an opponent who draws into their business later, but if you're going to assume that their deck just doesn't function, there are better cards to take advantage of that assumption (Cool Story Bro: in tournament play I'm 1-0 when my opponent Mindcensored me in response to Infernal Tutor).

[Hanni]

Vengevine isn't broken by T2 standards. This is Legacy.

Right, and T2 doesn't have the same enablers as Legacy. Clearly when you have strong cards like Survival, Vengevine gets broken. Unfortunately, Survival is not the only enabler for getting multiple Vengevines into the graveyard. In fact, both Intuition and Buried Alive get (3) Vengevines into the graveyard much faster than Survival did, since Survival cost 1G just to get into play. Unless you discard Vengevine on the first Survival discard, you're spending 1GG just to get things started, and a G for each Vengevine after that. Intuition and Buried Alive cost 2U and 2B respectively, making them far faster at putting Vengevines in the graveyard.

You can argue about the staying power, silver bullet tutoring, and all that jazz all day long, but the newer versions of Vengevine that will be spawning are going to be alot faster and just as consistent as the Survival version. Vengevine is a 4/3 haste that essentially costs 0 mana, how is that not broken? If you spend 2U (Intuition), B (Putrid Imp), 0 (Rootwalla), your spending 2UB for two 1/1's (which can become 2/2 flying and 3/3, respectively) and three 4/3's with haste. How is that not broken?

What's worse, a Firespout (or similar) doesn't even save the day; another two more creatures will trigger the three 4/3 hasters right back into play, and both creatures can get countered by a Counterbalance and still trigger Vengevine.

Also, vulnerabilities like Needle on Survival and Krosan Grip on Survival are no longer present in the new builds. Couple that with the fact that the black splash providing Putrid Imp and Entomb make early broken starts like turn 1-2 double Vengevine far more consistent, and you're going to find out just how broken Vengevine is. I've been doing nothing but playtesting the hell out of Vengevine in various shells the last few days (and I played the hell out of the Survival versions too), and I firmly believe these Survival-less versions are alot more powerful than the Survival version was.

Not only that, but the deck gains alot of additional resilience with Bloodghast. Expect to see U/G/b Intuition Vengeghast to dominate Top 8's until March rolls around.

/rant

[Koby]

/rant

But Survival is banned! Surely we're safe from the menace now. The DCI spent a great amount of time figuring out how to fix the format! PChapin is infallible.

</sarcasm>

[alderon666]

Right, and T2 doesn't have the same enablers as Legacy. Clearly when you have strong cards like Survival, Vengevine gets broken. Unfortunately, Survival is not the only enabler for getting multiple Vengevines into the graveyard. In fact, both Intuition and Buried Alive get (3) Vengevines into the graveyard much faster than Survival did, since Survival cost 1G just to get into play. Unless you discard Vengevine on the first Survival discard, you're spending 1GG just to get things started, and a G for each Vengevine after that. Intuition and Buried Alive cost 2U and 2B respectively, making them far faster at putting Vengevines in the graveyard.

You can argue about the staying power, silver bullet tutoring, and all that jazz all day long, but the newer versions of Vengevine that will be spawning are going to be alot faster and just as consistent as the Survival version. Vengevine is a 4/3 haste that essentially costs 0 mana, how is that not broken? If you spend 2U (Intuition), B (Putrid Imp), 0 (Rootwalla), your spending 2UB for two 1/1's (which can become 2/2 flying and 3/3, respectively) and three 4/3's with haste. How is that not broken?

What's worse, a Firespout (or similar) doesn't even save the day; another two more creatures will trigger the three 4/3 hasters right back into play, and both creatures can get countered by a Counterbalance and still trigger Vengevine.

Also, vulnerabilities like Needle on Survival and Krosan Grip on Survival are no longer present in the new builds. Couple that with the fact that the black splash providing Putrid Imp and Entomb make early broken starts like turn 1-2 double Vengevine far more consistent, and you're going to find out just how broken Vengevine is. I've been doing nothing but playtesting the hell out of Vengevine in various shells the last few days (and I played the hell out of the Survival versions too), and I firmly believe these Survival-less versions are alot more powerful than the Survival version was.

Not only that, but the deck gains alot of additional resilience with Bloodghast. Expect to see U/G/b Intuition Vengeghast to dominate Top 8's until March rolls around.

/rant

Any Vengevine deck without Survival is going to be completely reliant on the graveyard, won't be able to abuse Basking Rootwalla for infinite CA and won't be able to get out of sticky situations by tutoring answers or going of in response.

But even a version with Intuition going off for 2 Vengevines on turn 3/4, a Firespout and you're down so many cards that your might not even be able to get to play 2 creatures next turn.

[Valrina]

people that think mind censor is no answer to surival just have to look at european detah and taxes lists.

Which often Run mind Censor or Arbiter main + the other one SB ... + 4 swords before boarding + some path after boarding + mangara + maindeck O-Ring + some GY hate from Sb + mothers to block and wonder oh wonder... they still have a descent rate against the rest of the field ! Wow ... how could that be ? Maybe because that is the way D&T is playable for years now. People that think a turn 2 Arbiter in an deck with such an threat density doesnt hurt surival bad should please show me how he combos off against the resolved arbiter T3 even if he started, if it is only possible with some crazy sick hand.

[SpikeyMikey]

Any VV deck without Survival is still not as all in as Dredge but is just as explosive. Long, long time ago, when this discussion FIRST hit, I said that VV decks without Survival would be less resilient, but faster, because of the inherent slowness of Survival of the Fittest. Because you're spending 2 cards and GGG1 just to get to your first two VV's in yard, assuming 1 in your opening grip. Intuition is 2U for 2 VV's in yard and 1 in hand whether you already have one or not.

[coraz86]

PChapin is infallible.

</sarcasm>

He does write for Star City, which does have a lot of extra copies of Leyline of Singularity and Bazaar of Wonders they'd probably like to exchange for cash money.

[Rico Suave]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same format that other people are.

For 3 mana, we already have the ability to put Emrakul into play. Why would I care about Vengevine?

[FieryBalrog]

Why play to beat Survival, when you can just play Survival yourself, and tech against the mirror? Just to be "different"? There is no prize for playing a random deck with MD mindcensors and arbiters that blows against the rest of the format.

Also, lol @ the Europeans still trying to ride that horse.

[Karhumies]

If you spend 2U (Intuition), B (Putrid Imp), 0 (Rootwalla), your spending 2UB for two 1/1's (which can become 2/2 flying and 3/3, respectively) and three 4/3's with haste. How is that not broken?

If I spend U (P.Tutor) and 2U (Show and Tell), I'm spending 2UU for putting Emrakul into play. Apparently, that is not broken. This is Legacy.

On a more serious note, creature discard outlets (Putrid Imp, Aquamoeba, etc.) are much easier to get rid of pre-SB than Survival was. Just ask any Dredge player about their PImp average life span. Also, while Intuition-BA-based Vengevine decks may be faster than Survival builds were, they have less options for SB hatebears and previous MD one-ofs. No more 1-of Trygon Predator, Llawan, Sower of Temptation/Gilded Drake, Waterfront Bouncer, Faerie Macabre. Even the Natural Order alternative plan has been hit somewhat, as you can not cantrip the topdecked big creature for something castable with Survival anymore. Sure, you can post-SB Intuition for 3x hatebear, but that is nowhere close to Survival efficiency of cantrip-tutoring to improve card quality. Currently, Peacekeeper, Humility and Leyline of the Void seem especially difficult for the UG madness deck to deal with.

With the SB tutoring engine gone, the deck will have to compromise its SB. In essence, the deck has become a glass cannon. More speed, less outs vs hate. Hopefully, it will stay under the radar -> facing significantly less SB hate than previously, allowing for better finishes with the list.

[Hanni]

Any Vengevine deck without Survival is going to be completely reliant on the graveyard, won't be able to abuse Basking Rootwalla for infinite CA and won't be able to get out of sticky situations by tutoring answers or going of in response.

But even a version with Intuition going off for 2 Vengevines on turn 3/4, a Firespout and you're down so many cards that your might not even be able to get to play 2 creatures next turn.

How do you figure? The deck is just as dependant on the graveyard as Survival was.

How does Basking Rootwalla provide infinite CA, exactly? Vengeghast still has an enormous amount of card advantage, btw.

Getting out of sticky situations by tutoring for silver bullets, I'll concede that point. That's the trade off for being faster. However, there are still a few silver bullets that can be tutored for via Intuition and Entomb.

I'm assuming you've yet to play with or against the new Vengevine lists if you think that Firespout puts the deck down so many cards that you can't recover.


Any VV deck without Survival is still not as all in as Dredge but is just as explosive. Long, long time ago, when this discussion FIRST hit, I said that VV decks without Survival would be less resilient, but faster, because of the inherent slowness of Survival of the Fittest. Because you're spending 2 cards and GGG1 just to get to your first two VV's in yard, assuming 1 in your opening grip. Intuition is 2U for 2 VV's in yard and 1 in hand whether you already have one or not.

The difference in resilience isn't even that much different, and I'd argue that the increase in speed is more valuable than the loss of silver bullets.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm playing the same format that other people are.

For 3 mana, we already have the ability to put Emrakul into play. Why would I care about Vengevine?


This statement is flawed. Show and Tell is completely different than Intuition. Show and Tell is a combo deck; Emrakul does nothing without Show and Tell (or Sneak Attack), and vice versa. Vengevine is an aggro deck. If Show and Tell gets countered, you're a fish out of water. If Intuition gets countered, the Vengevine player can still beat face. I win so many games off of a turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard Vengevine, discard Rootwalla, swing for 4, that it's not even funny.


If I spend U (P.Tutor) and 2U (Show and Tell), I'm spending 2UU for putting Emrakul into play. Apparently, that is not broken. This is Legacy.


So you set up with a card disadvantage tutor and require having Emrakul in hand. If Show and Tell gets countered, you have no board presence while you work on reassembling your combo. Show and Tell/Emrakul is clearly a strong that wins games, but it's still shut down by a number of cards.

A better way to explain this: How's your Merfolk and CounterTop matchups? I'm assuming they're rather difficult. Vengevine beats both of those. Maybe I'm wrong though, since Show and Tell was demolishing metagames while Survival Vengevine was scrubbing out left and right.


On a more serious note, creature discard outlets (Putrid Imp, Aquamoeba, etc.) are much easier to get rid of pre-SB than Survival was.

Umm... you mean that they can hit my creature with spot removal, where I respond by discarding the spells I wanted to discard? The deck doesn't blindly drop discard outlets waiting to draw into the cards it wants to discard... All the deck needs is one discard activation from its discard outlets to put Vengevines/Bloodghasts into play.


Also, while Intuition-BA-based Vengevine decks may be faster than Survival builds were, they have less options for SB hatebears and previous MD one-ofs.

If I'm worried about the opponent's hatebears, there's still toolbox options available to the Intuition/Entomb engine, like Crippling Fatigue.

I run FoW/Daze MD, Therapy SB (which I can tutor for with Entomb/Intuition), and a faster clock, what do I need hatebears for?


No more 1-of Trygon Predator, Llawan, Sower of Temptation/Gilded Drake, Waterfront Bouncer, Faerie Macabre.

Again, there options like Ray of Revelation if I really felt like I needed a toolbox approach.

Survival was slow, and needed to tutor for silver bullets because the opponent was capable of getting their hate into play before it set up its win. This deck can often race a Peacekeeper from coming into play. The deck still has Force of Will and Daze, too...


Even the Natural Order alternative plan has been hit somewhat, as you can not cantrip the topdecked big creature for something castable with Survival anymore.

CounterTop and Aggro Bant run Natural Order without Survival just fine.


Currently, Peacekeeper, Humility and Leyline of the Void seem especially difficult for the UG madness deck to deal with.


Peackeeper costs 2W and is vulnerable to plenty of sideboard options (like Crippling Fatigue). Humility doesn't stop the opponent from getting smacked in the face with a horde of 1/1's. Leyline of the Void is pretty savage, but that was still a problem for the Survival player, too. True, I can't tutor for a Qasali Pridemage, but I can still hit it with Krosan Grip or smack with a Jitte wearing Putrid Imp.


With the SB tutoring engine gone, the deck will have to compromise its SB. In essence, the deck has become a glass cannon. More speed, less outs vs hate. Hopefully, it will stay under the radar -> facing significantly less SB hate than previously, allowing for better finishes with the list.

The deck isn't a glass cannon, its a very fast and very powerful blue-based aggro/control that's extremely difficult to deal with without specific answers like graveyard hate. It loses a little bit of consistency without Survival for a large increase in speed. If anything, I'd say the Survival version was a glass cannon that revolved around Survival resolving (silver bullets are bad without their tutor). U/G/b Vengeghast never needs to resolve its namesake Intuition to explode a load in the opponent's face.

---

People thought Vengevine was junk in Legacy before Caleb slapped GP Columbus in the face with his dick, and if everyone wants to think Vengevine is crap without Survival, go right on ahead.

[Aggro_zombies]

This statement is flawed. Show and Tell is completely different than Intuition. Show and Tell is a combo deck; Emrakul does nothing without Show and Tell (or Sneak Attack), and vice versa. Vengevine is an aggro deck. If Show and Tell gets countered, you're a fish out of water. If Intuition gets countered, the Vengevine player can still beat face. I win so many games off of a turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard Vengevine, discard Rootwalla, swing for 4, that it's not even funny.
You know, if you're winning that many games off of opening a three card combo, you might want to try your luck with Show and Telling Emrakul into play. I mean, how can you lose when you open Petal, Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, swing for 15 and the opponent's board next turn?

[Hanni]

You know, if you're winning that many games off of opening a three card combo, you might want to try your luck with Show and Telling Emrakul into play. I mean, how can you lose when you open Petal, Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, swing for 15 and the opponent's board next turn?


I was simply illustrating how I never have to resolve Intuition (which was being compared to Show and Tell) to ever win the game. I also didn't mean that I get a turn 1 Imp/Rootwalla/Vengevine opening all the time, I meant that I win when I get that opening all the time.

You're misconstruing the point I was trying to make. How about turn 1 Brainstorm, turn 2 Putrid Imp, pitch double Vengevine, cast Birds of Paradise? Does that suit your fancy more? Or maybe turn 1 Birds of Paradise, turn 2 Intuition for triple Vengevine is more your thing...

At any rate, I'm done having a discussion about comparing apples to oranges. Thanks for the lol's though.

EDIT: For reference, by apples and oranges, I'm talking about comparing an aggro/control deck to a combo deck. If Show and Tell gets countered, you have no board presence. If Intuition gets countered, I'm smacking with a 3/1 Aquamoeba and a 3/3 Basking Rootwalla. Of course I'm sure you're going to tell me how bad a 3/1 and 3/3 are, but maybe I'll just Entomb for Wonder and race your Tarmogoyf. Or, you know, slap a Jitte on my Putrid Imp.

For another reference, here's the list I'm talking about:

U/B/g Vengeghast

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Aquamoeba
4 [ROE] Vengevine
3 [ZEN] Bloodghast
1 [FNM] Wonder

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [OD] Entomb
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [TO] Crippling Fatigue

(Edited my sideboard)

[Rico Suave]

Well I suppose we just have different definitions of what a good deck is in Legacy.

[Hanni]

Well I suppose we just have different definitions of what a good deck is in Legacy.


I never said Show and Tell wasn't a good deck...

[lorddotm]

I never said Show and Tell wasn't a good deck...

I say that though. Expecting to cast a Sorcery and ride a creature to victory is noob style.

[Rico Suave]

I wasn't talking about Show and Tell.

Do you think nobody has tried Intuition-Vengevine? There's a difference between "viable" and "broken" and frankly Intuition has never done anything broken. It's just too expensive for what it does to be classified as broken.

[Hanni]

Do you think nobody has tried Intuition-Vengevine? There's a difference between "viable" and "broken" and frankly Intuition has never done anything broken. It's just too expensive for what it does to be classified as broken.


lol, apparently nobody found the right shell for it then. Intuition does what Survival did for less than half the cost, but Intuition is too expensive to be broken. Besides, I never said Intuition was broken, I said Vengevine was broken.

[Crysthorn]

frankly Intuition has never done anything broken
While I'm not sure if Hanni's list will prove to be as broken as he claims, your argument doesn't make any sense to me either. You know, Survival has never done anything broken (until they printed Vengevine), Natural Order has never done anything broken (until they printed Progenitus), Flash has never done anything broken (until they printed Protean Hulk)... See where I'm going with this?

[Karhumies]

At any rate, I'm done having a discussion about comparing apples to oranges. - -

EDIT: For reference, by apples and oranges, I'm talking about comparing an aggro/control deck to a combo deck.

This.

When it comes to aggro/control, Vengevine-Intuition is doubtlessly (one of) the best in the Legacy format. Combo decks can (and should) be faster, but if they fail their primary plan, they are hit much more severely than an aggro-control deck which has more redundancy.

My main question essentially was (and still is) this: can the aggro-control Intuition-Vengevine successfully bring in enough control elements to successfully fight against the decks which take an aggro role against it (namely TES combo, UB Ooze combo, LED Dredge aggro-combo, possibly Affinity aggro-combo although you seem to be faster than they are)? Or are you forced to assume the aggro role even in these MUs most of the time out of deck list necessity? I emphasize that I have not playtested with or against the deck; I was merely pointing out that it seems that the Intuition-Vengevine deck is worse in taking the control role than UGb Vengevival Ooze was (which is a fair deck to compare it with IMO). Intuition-Vengevine DOES gain a lot of aggro speed, making it faster than the survival build was. In my eyes, however, the trade-off is not aggro-plan consistency, but rather the control-plan success rate.

I would like to continue this discussion in the UG Madness thread. You can consider me playing the role of devil's advocate - prove me wrong.

[Rico Suave]

lol, apparently nobody found the right shell for it then. Intuition does what Survival did for less than half the cost, but Intuition is too expensive to be broken. Besides, I never said Intuition was broken, I said Vengevine was broken.

No, Intuition does NOT do what Survival does. That is the whole point.