G/B/r BAVV (Aggro Vengevine)

[Hanni]

I originally posted this list in the U/G Madness thread, but it obviously doesn't belong there, so I'm posting it here. U/G/b Intuition Vengevine is also incredibly broken, but this version is far stronger against an aggro field of Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo.

Before I go any further, here's the list:

G/B/r BAVV
Aggro Vengevine

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Bayou
4 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Badlands
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [7E] Birds of Paradise
4 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FNM] Wild Mongrel
4 [ROE] Vengevine
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast

// Spells
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Basically, Vengevine is broken. The DCI banned the wrong card.

The gameplan is very aggressive, utilizing the "free" alternate costs on Vengevine, Bloodghast, and Basking Rootwalla. The deck almost feels like a new age Affinity, having the potential to dump a bunch of creatures into play extremely fast.

The creature curve makes triggering Vengevine very consistent, with Entomb and Buried Alive enabling both consistency and explosiveness.

Even if the initial aggro wave is answered, Vengevines and Bloodghast's can easily recur midgame to continue the assault. Utilizing both Vengevine and Bloodghast makes an opponent need multiple graveyard hate spells to answer the assault throughout the game, and oftentimes, this deck just wins right through the hate.

Even if the Vengevine and Bloodghast assaults are dealt with, the deck can still easily beat down with Putrid Imp's, Basking Rootwalla's, and Wild Mongrel's. The 8 1cc burn spells are there to clear blockers early (to maximize damage), and then be aimed to the opponent's dome in the midgame to seal the win. It also gives the deck an answer to problem cards like Peackeeper.

My sideboard is just tossed together for now, and I'm sure it's going to change drastically after we figure out what the metagame is going to be like now that Survival is banned.

(Oh, and BAVV stands for Buried Alive Vengevine, for those who are scratching their heads.)

[from Cairo]

Have you considered/tested Firestorm, Big Game Hunter and/or Cabal Therapy? Maybe they'd be better in the Sideboard, but they seem synergistic options.

[Hanni]

Have you considered/tested Firestorm, Big Game Hunter and/or Cabal Therapy? Maybe they'd be better in the Sideboard, but they seem synergistic options.

That's why I posted this, to get discussion.

I had considered Cabal Therapy, but I don't know if it's necessary. It works well with Bloodghast, but is only mediocre with Vengevine. It definitely has amazing synergy with this deck though, and I'll keep it in mind.

As far as Firestorm and Big Game Hunter, I had not considered those. I kinda want to say away from Big Game Hunter since it doesn't deal damage to the opponent's dome, but against midrange aggro like Bant, it would be great. Firestorm sounds like it has promise as an early discard outlet, but it seems very lacking after that. It's great against swarm aggro like Goblins, don't get me wrong, but it's very bad at hitting bigger guys like Wild Nacatl, and is much less aggressive at hitting the opponent's dome than Chain Lightning.

Nice suggestions though, I'll definitely keep all 3 in mind.

EDIT: Another option would be to cut the red splash and burn altogether for 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Cabal Therapy. I just posted a G/B list with Wasteland, Thoughtseize, and Therapy in the other Vengecine thread (G/B) in N&D. I'll discuss that route in that thread. I'll keep this thread about the red splash.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

What are you using these SB chalices for? I see you added them to the GB and GBr versions where Spell Pierce was in the UGb list. It would seem that chalice@1 is actually probably one of the strongest cards against any one of these decks, while Chalice @0 is pretty meh versus any deck it would come in against and anything higher is probably just a waste.

Where UGb definitely benefits from the additional countermagic, I would think there's much better hate against combo (which I assume is Chalice's intended purpose). The red splash should look at Pyrostatic Pillar; it's a 100% must-answer for combo, while you can still mostly play through it. The GB version might try Faerie Macabre (screws up IGG loops, threshed Cabal Ritual math, 'yard recursion), Mesmeric Fiend or just a NOpro package against hate.

[Mana Drain]

I thought about a list very similar to yours Hanni, but gave up on it due pretty early out of boredom. Two ideas worth a ponder: Tortured Existence and 3 NO+ Dryad Arbor+ Prog. Tortured Existence looks to be a permanent discard outlet, dumping Vines and Bloodghasts, and trading them for regular dudes like Mongrel and Rootwalla. I think it could be a better late-game oriented choice in the slot of PImp.

NOProg is just that good. It's also a serious threat that isn't GY dependent and another angle of attack.

Food for thought.

[Gui]

Why not :w: instead of :r:, add some tireless tribes, which would get as nuts as Putrid Imps, and some Memnite, so that you are almost guaranted to drop vengevine by turn 1 if you have her at hand.

Also, there's a GB Vengevine Aggro @ developmental already, shouldn't it all be discussed there? xD

And btw, red should have 1x Anger, just in case, for bloodgast and stuff...

[GGoober]

Anger without Fauna/Survival is dead weight. Since you no longer have Survival, you want to reduce the clunkiness of the deck, besides, VV is the main plan and they already have haste :D, hasty Rootwalls and Mongrels aint too impressive :P Gathan Raiders could be an interesting inclusion though. The list looks tight. It's either removing the Chain Lightnings for more pieces/creatures or sticking with 8 burn. TBH, the more creatures, the easier to trigger VV.

Gathan Raiders + Basking = VV trigger, with quite a potent power attacking when you get Hellbent (you can get Hellbent fairly easily with this deck)

[Hanni]

What are you using these SB chalices for? I see you added them to the GB and GBr versions where Spell Pierce was in the UGb list. It would seem that chalice@1 is actually probably one of the strongest cards against any one of these decks, while Chalice @0 is pretty meh versus any deck it would come in against and anything higher is probably just a waste.


The SB Chalices are specifically for Storm Combo. Storm Combo is my worst matchup. I can't play Spell Pierce, and even if I could, 4 Spell Pierce's wouldn't be enough to stop Storm Combo. Chalice costs 0 and buys me more than enough time to kill the combo player before they can answer it. All I did was take a page out of Goblins sideboard, except I have a faster clock than Goblins.


Where UGb definitely benefits from the additional countermagic, I would think there's much better hate against combo (which I assume is Chalice's intended purpose). The red splash should look at Pyrostatic Pillar; it's a 100% must-answer for combo, while you can still mostly play through it. The GB version might try Faerie Macabre (screws up IGG loops, threshed Cabal Ritual math, 'yard recursion), Mesmeric Fiend or just a NOpro package against hate.


Pyrostatic Pillar could be a good option too, but it costs 1R, whereas Chalice costs 0. This is a big difference.

The G/B version has Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy maindeck, and it can fit more answers to combo in the sideboard if it needs to.


I thought about a list very similar to yours Hanni, but gave up on it due pretty early out of boredom. Two ideas worth a ponder: Tortured Existence and 3 NO+ Dryad Arbor+ Prog. Tortured Existence looks to be a permanent discard outlet, dumping Vines and Bloodghasts, and trading them for regular dudes like Mongrel and Rootwalla. I think it could be a better late-game oriented choice in the slot of PImp.

NOProg is just that good. It's also a serious threat that isn't GY dependent and another angle of attack.

Food for thought.


The NO/Prog package can be a very good as a backup plan in postboard games. I'm content with my multiple angles of attack right now, but I'm sure others will use NO/Prog to great effect.

Tortured Existence seems redundant. It provides no clock on its own, unlike my other discard outlets (PImp/Mongrel), and I already have plenty of recursion with Vengevine and Bloodghast. My threat density is high enough to topdeck into creatures midgame to re-trigger Vengevines. While Tortured Existsnce could be good, I don't think it's good enough. I could be wrong, and those suggesting it are more than willing to playtest it.


Why not instead of , add some tireless tribes, which would get as nuts as Putrid Imps, and some Memnite, so that you are almost guaranted to drop vengevine by turn 1 if you have her at hand.


That's another possible route that one could take. I'm already working on 3 seperate Vengevine variations, and I'm sure there's several more viable options as well (like G/B/w and Dredgevine). I really like this particular list because the burn makes it extremely aggressive and gives the deck another angle to attack from (burn).


Also, there's a GB Vengevine Aggro @ developmental already, shouldn't it all be discussed there? xD


Yea, I originally posted this thread before I realized that. I was considering having a mod merge them, but then I decided that this approach plays very different in actual games, so I think it deserves a seperate thread.


And btw, red should have 1x Anger, just in case, for bloodgast and stuff...

Vengevine already has Haste, and Bloodghast already has [situational] Haste too. Anger is unecessary.


The list looks tight. It's either removing the Chain Lightnings for more pieces/creatures or sticking with 8 burn. TBH, the more creatures, the easier to trigger VV.


24 creatures is plenty for triggering Vengevines. More couldn't hurt, but the 8 burn spells is what sets this deck apart from the other versions. Clearing away early chump blockers and then aiming at the opponent's head to finish them off speeds the deck up immensely. It also gives the deck answers to problematic creatures like Dark Confidant and Peacekeeper.


Gathan Raiders + Basking = VV trigger, with quite a potent power attacking when you get Hellbent (you can get Hellbent fairly easily with this deck)

3 mana for a 3/3 (or even 5/5) is a bit slow. This deck is far more concerned with its speed than U/G/b Intuition Vengevine, and I don't even run Psychatog in there. I'll keep it in mind, but I don't think he's going to make the cut.

[naarou]

Hey man, regarding the chalice setup.. I play storm and I feel that chalices are not the best form of hate you can get. I've gone off many times through chalice at 0 and game three if I'm on the play I'll just dump my artifacts before you get a chance to drop it. It's not bad hate, but there's certainly better stuff. Chalice is usually shoe-horned into decks that run ways to get it out on 1 on turn one and is a lot more effective against most storm combo lists.

I could recommend diversifying if you're still set on chalice.. perhaps 2 chalice 2 mindbreak trap. I usually lose when my opponent hits me from multiple angles, whether that's discard + counterspells, or hatebear/permanents + counterspells, etc.

[Hanni]

Hey man, regarding the chalice setup.. I play storm and I feel that chalices are not the best form of hate you can get. I've gone off many times through chalice at 0 and game three if I'm on the play I'll just dump my artifacts before you get a chance to drop it. It's not bad hate, but there's certainly better stuff. Chalice is usually shoe-horned into decks that run ways to get it out on 1 on turn one and is a lot more effective against most storm combo lists.


I don't plan on casting Chalice for 1, I plan on casting Chalice for 0. Chalice for 0 shuts off Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and LED. It slows down the combo player, and that's all I need it for. The only time I'm casting Chalice for 1 is if I have a Chalice for 0 and a clock already on the board.

What turn do you normally go off through Chalice? If I land Chalice on turn 1, you only have a few turns to find an answer and/or combo off before you die. I can see slower decks losing to Storm Combo with Chalice, and I'm not saying 4 Chalice postboard gives me a favorable matchup against Storm Combo either, but I think it's my best option.


I could recommend diversifying if you're still set on chalice.. perhaps 2 chalice 2 mindbreak trap. I usually lose when my opponent hits me from multiple angles, whether that's discard + counterspells, or hatebear/permanents + counterspells, etc.

Mindbreak Trap is vulnerable to Duress and Chant, making it alot easier to answer than Chalice IMO.

I don't want to run counterspells, discard, or hatebears. I want to smash aggro, aggro/control, and control decks. I'll gladly weaken my matchup against combo for amazing matchups elsewhere, since combo is much less played here in the United States. If I were in a heavy combo metagame that required me to run more than 4 cards in the sideboard for it, I'd be playing U/G/b Intuition Vengevine instead.

[naarou]

I was trying to help you, but it seems you don't really understand basic storm hate principles.

Chalice at 1 is better than chalice at 0. With the exception of a double LED hand, you can't generate enough mana to go off reliably with chalice at 1. Plus you can't cantrip, or play protection spells. Once you realize chalice @ 1 is better than 0, you'll see why duress makes chalice something less than ideal considering you can't cheat a chalice@1 out on turn one.

Mindbreak trap is answerable, yes, but it's also another form of attack on storm and wins many more games than chalice. From experience. Merely RUNNING Mindbreak trap in your deck slows the storm player down because it requires protection. It's not like chalice where you can go off around it.. you literally need an answer to mindbreak trap before you do anything.

And I have no idea where you get that storm isn't played in America.

[Hanni]

I was trying to help you, but it seems you don't really understand basic storm hate principles.


lol


Chalice at 1 is better than chalice at 0. With the exception of a double LED hand, you can't generate enough mana to go off reliably with chalice at 1. Plus you can't cantrip, or play protection spells. Once you realize chalice @ 1 is better than 0, you'll see why duress makes chalice something less than ideal considering you can't cheat a chalice@1 out on turn one.


I didn't say Chalice at 0 was better than Chalice at 1, although from my experience both with and against it, Chalice at 0 slows the deck down considerably.


Mindbreak trap is answerable, yes, but it's also another form of attack on storm and wins many more games than chalice. From experience. Merely RUNNING Mindbreak trap in your deck slows the storm player down because it requires protection. It's not like chalice where you can go off around it.. you literally need an answer to mindbreak trap before you do anything.


Both of them slow my opponent down.


And I have no idea where you get that storm isn't played in America.


I'll gladly weaken my matchup against combo for amazing matchups elsewhere, since combo is much less played here in the United States.

[naarou]

Storm puts up a significant showing in almost every 1.5 tournament on the east coast with halfway decent prizes.

[Fossil4182]

I really like this deck. I'm going to plug it into MWS and test for a while. I think your assessment is partially correct in that a majority of the meta game will shift back to Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins. However, I also think Counterbalance will also have a decent showing (hopefully hindered by the likely large turnout of Merfolk). Another deck that has somewhat fallen by the wayside but could stage a come back is New Horizons (or some form of tempo deck). Both would seem to be important to test against in preparation for any upcoming events; I'm specifically thinking of the KC 5K coming up.

I also agree with you that the DCI banned the wrong card. Survival is a tutor yes, but Vengevine is an engine unto itself. Maybe if Vengevine is broken without Survival, the DCI will realize it can't just print cards without testing the implications they'll have in eternal formats (that's probably wishing too much) or they'll let the formats sort things out on their own rather than slamming the ban hammer.

As suggestions for the sideboard, how about a Flashback based sideboard? It would not need to take up a ton of slots since you could run it as a tutor based board using Entomb. Ancient Grudge seems like a natural inclusion in this deck since you run both colors to cast it and you can tutor it. I'm thinking that cards like Jitte, Ensnaring Bridge, and to a lesser extent Meekstone are cards you would need an answer to. Its also an instant which allows it to be tutored to answer traditional artifact based graveyard hate. Other cards for consideration would include Cabal Therapy and Ray of Revelation.

I understand that using this strategy means less tutoring for Vengevines. However, if the goal of this deck is beat down quickly, the cards that inhibit you from doing so need to be answered quickly to allow that strategy. Since the deck runs no way to find specific cards either with Bob or Top, then having your sideboard answers designed in the form of tutor targets seems amenable. I would suggest something like this:

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy (could be higher depending on metagame)
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
(5 slots open)

The theory is that you would probably only need to blow something up once for the win so there isn't a need to run more than one of each tutor. Additionally, the three Krosan Grips are included for two reasons. First, on the unknown match up versus counterbalance (which should be good but still...) and second because you need an answer to Leyline of the Void. Ray of Revelation isn't viable as an answer to Leyline of the Void (and the Flashback card I'm most questioning) and Nature's Claim seems bad in this deck. I would argue that Nature's Claim was good in Survival sideboards because if you wanted to put your opponent on a clock, swinging with four Vengevines after a resolved Nature's Claim meant you were still on the same two turn clock. However, when the average number of Vengevines you are swinging with drops from four to two, then giving your opponent life just seems terrible. Additionally, control decks that run countermagic will counter nature's claim since this deck runs little to no disruption for protection. Krosan Grip just seems like the smart inclusion here.

The only bad match ups I see with this deck are control match ups which counter the discard outlets. The nice thing about Vengevine is the trigger is on playing the creature so this somewhat diminished. However, the deck seems weak and slow if the discard outlet is countered. Have you given any thought to this? While I feel as though this deck is faster enough to beat most decks just on pure speed, the lack of disruption or protection makes the deck feel like a glass cannon in that when it hits, it wins and with it misses, it falls apart.

[zabuza]

I´m testing something like:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Putrid Imp
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Vengevine
4 Bloodghast
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Big Game Hunter

// Spells
4 Buried Alive
4 SmallPox
4 Cabal Therapy


I like the form the deck plays, has lot of attack angles and is very resilient. I´m thinking on including the natural order package (4 order + prog) to have another way of winning.

Also I´m thinking on other cards that are useful in the strategy:

Oona´s Prowler //--> As another discard Outlet
Elvish Spirit Guide // --> Acceleration. I´m not sure about it or noble/birds
Trespasser il-Vec // --> As another discard Outlet taht beats for 3
Gorgon Recluse // --> Another good madness girl
Stinkweed Imp // --> Sometimes is posible you have not the second creature spell to cast so you can recover it and play again to do the trick. THe
//good thing is that it has Deathtouch
Golgari THug // --> The same as above but cheaper.

[Karhumies]

@ Opening post:

Throwing away the storm match-up indeed reminds me of an old-school Affinity approach. Some modern day Affinity builds, however, run 4x Chalice @ 1 MD (without any cc1 spells thanks to Memnite and Paradise mantle) combined with 2-4x MD Ethersworn Canonist out of necessity, because storm combo (especially TES) has become immensely more popular in - at least my local - Legacy meta over the years.

Towards this end, I would suggest you fortify your MD by replacing 4x Chain Lightning with 4x Thoughtseize (or is life loss is too much, Cabal Therapy). You can even use either card as a discard outlet (Animator-style), but the additional cost of doing that is revealing your hand to your opponent. Well, you are not playing blue cards atm, so this should not be AS significant drawback if you explode on the turn you reveal your plan. Besides battling Storm, running Thoughtseize/Therapy to hit the opponent should help vs the potentially-returning Counterbalance decks, which may FoW your early drops (PImp/Entomb, thinking you are either Dredge or animator player and he's hitting your key cards) to buy time, prevent you from getting Vines into the yard and consequently make your life harder.

To sum up my thoughts: killing off blockers is only relevant when there ARE blockers to be dealt with. While burning the opponent is a valid alternate use for the card, it is nevertheless a slower strategy than your main one and - most importantly - slower than storm combo. Discard effects, on the other hand, can slow down your opponent more than they slow down you, especially if the opponent does not have enough redundancy in his deck.