Red Gate

[Qweerios]

Hello,

I have been a big player of Vesper Green and Eva White decks for a long time and I figured that with the addition of Abyssal Persecutor, Red Death could be viable again.

Basically I have 2 versions of the deck: a more land disruptive, and a more aggro agressive.

My Red Death 2.0

Creatures (13)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Spells (26)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fling
4 Terminate

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
5 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dystopia
3 Firespout
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Shattering Spree


And


Creatures (10)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Tombstalker

Spells (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fling
2 Terminate

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Bloostained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Badlands
5 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
3 Firespout
3 Shattering Spree


Sideboard Firespout basically replaced Perish. It usualy acts as a Plague Wind in most cases. Currently testing Vampire Nighthawks over Gatekeepers

Any suggestions?

***EDIT: Split the deck in two versions.

[keys]

Thank you for playing Fling + Persecutor. Awesome.

[hyc8028]

What are the reasons to exclude bob, nighthawk and bitterblossum?

[SpeedOfDark]

Thank you for playing Fling + Persecutor. Awesome.

This.

Kudos on card choice here :P I also like how its not dead without persecutor. If the game drags on, fling + tombstalker or pumped nantuko could be pretty deadly too.

[pippo84]

I wouldn't play Dark Ritual and Hypnotic Specter.

You could play Bob (but terrible with tombstalker), Night hawk or Gatekeeper.

Fling is a great choice!

[Qweerios]

What are the reasons to exclude bob, nighthawk and bitterblossum?

One thing I have learned from playing Deadguy Ale and Vesper Green is that playing bob is a commitment. When he kicks in, hes wonderful. I wouldn't play bob without any sort of library manipulation such as SDT or Mirri's Guile (super awesome card). Also, by trying to squeeze in a draw engine I am deviating from the purpose of the deck which is: to disrupt and beat ASAP. In all honesty, if sinkholes can't find a home in my red death variant, bob won't.

Next up, Nighthawk vs Specter. While both cost 1BB, have 2 power, and fly, they both accomplish two very different things. Although NH is the reasonable choice in the current meta, he does not contribute to much aggressivity but rather stability. I like to play NH better in decks using bob, bitterblossoms, or jittes. Which brings me to my next point;

I have been torn on the use of blossom vs shade. Even though blossom synergizes better with Firespout, the card is slow and underwhelming without a way to abuse those 1/1 flyers, the main one being jitte. Why not run blossom in conjunction with jitte then? Back to square one, I find a strategy to be involving blossom and jitte hard to abuse without a card drawing engine or tutor ability. Including blossom and jitte then comes to the same as including bob and top, and that would be creating an entirely different deck. On the up side, shade seems most fitting as he is both an early drop and a late threat, on the ritual curve and a ritual fodder, and flings turns him into blaze.

Gatekeeper is right on my to do list but so far I enjoy the shades a tad bit more.

[Gui]

More Flings, moar Bayous and add Berserk? :D

[Kove]

Nice to see a thread on Red Death again. I love the deck - even if it in this case's called something different. ;)
Even though it has been deemed unviable since the printing of Tarmogoyf etc., I find the deck to be surprisingly solid. Hymn and Sinkholes/Wastelands can simply win games on their own.

Interesting list you've got there. Not sure I agree with the Persecutors and Flings though. They seem kind of "too cute" - but if they work for you you should definately continue to use them. :)
I really want to try out Firespout though as I'm tired of the amount of Merfolk running around. At one point I was even considering maindecking it and changing the creature base to all-flying but I never got around to doing it.

Here's my list for reference:

Creatures: 15
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade

Disruption: 13
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

Burn: 7
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

Mana: 25
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

[Qweerios]

I have browsed over a few red death threads and it is really interresting to see how people quickly dismiss Terminate for something like Chain Lightning. Then it makes more sense for the deck to feel obsolete against goyf since it has no ways of dealing with it aside from burning everything arround it and play a gatekeeper. For that very reason I think my deck is much more similar to The Gate than Red Death as it doesn't run burn to burn opponents but rather to clear the board of nuisances, and it is much more centered arround percy. A percy is a consistent 2-3 turn clock for your opponent that is pretty much only commonly removed by swords or paths (and with 11 discards you know what to look for).

Recent changes to Red Gate have been to switch Specters with Gatekeepers. The switch is really a metagame call. Firespout is still a powerhouse in the SB as it is my only board sweeper against Zoo, Merfolk, and Elves. The card feels like a combination of Perish and Deathmark and is relatively one sided.

Another change I have been considering is: -3 Shades, -1 Badland, -1 Therapy, -1 Swamp for +4 Goyfs and +2 Bayou. This change would make the manabase more vulnerable and rituals a bit less useful but would enable goyf which speaks for himself. Also, if goyf seems like an unreasonable inclusion, Magus of the Moon looks like a great SB inclusion and would definitely warrant MB Sinkholes.

Any opinions?

[toasterferret]

Why Fling over Rite of Consumption?

[Qweerios]

Instant speed makes all the difference. Fling is an effective response to removal on any threat, and therefore has fewer chances of being a dead card.

[blaat]

Why Fling over Rite of Consumption?

Instant is the key here (from response to removal to the situation where you need 1 attack to win but your opponent is winning in his turn and everything in between).
Rite would only be ok if you play mono black.

The next inevitable question, can I finally get Blightning out of my binder?
Hypnotic Specter seems a bit outdated nowadays, Blightning fits the curve and does both the discard and the burn strategy.
As a 2- or 3-off in addition to the default 8 discard spells, with duress in the SB.

[Qweerios]

I will edit specters out of the main post. Gatekeepers are much better and necessary to percy.

Also, test blightning, the card isn't so good.

[Qweerios]

I'm rather curious on why you have a singleton duress over a 4th chain?

[hyc8028]

Would null rod be a better choice over Shatterstorm?

[Qweerios]

Would null rod be a better choice over Shatterstorm?

It's not as effective against affinity.

[GGoober]

Good deck. Monoblack Gate's main strength is not risking tempo loses to Wasteland/Stifles, but in all honesty if your opponents are seeking to Waste your lands, then I think they're in for a huge tempo loss since they are not a deck bent on tempo like the Gate.

Regardless, I think Red is a good splash color and I prefer it over green. It's true you don't get bombs like Deeds/Pulse/Grips, but you get Firespout, Burn reach. Firespout solves the problem against swarm since the Gate really does excellent against non-swarm decks and has to deal with Swarm with its creature base. Burn just hits hard once your beasts get in there. Fling is probably not needed but I guess it's never a bad thing. I personally would run burn 5-8 in those slots. 4 Bolt isn't enough to justify red as a burn-reach.

Wow, Red Death has a shot again. I played Red Death as one of my first Legacy decks and I stood by Negator all day long. I played Negator when Goyf was in the format. Kinda dumb :P But nice to see this deck back again. Good luck!

Since you lack green for the splash against enchantments, run 4 Dystopia. And since you're not playing green, it makes all the more sense to play it. It is absolutely a house against any deck packing green/white (enchantress/Zoo/Bant). I have my ass choked up by this card played against me.

[Sims]

It's not as effective against affinity.


????

It stops them from casting anything other than Thopters/Memnites/Frogs/Enforcers... stops mana production, stops them from equiping platings...

sure they can attack, but 2/2's and 1/1's and 0/2 aren't that scary... 4/4's can be threatening but that's what removal is for.

[Kove]

The lone Duress is there to give me a better chance of having a turn one play. I found 8 to be a tad low (Thoughtseize / Dark Ritual + X). Chain Lightning isn't all that amazing. It's usually one of the first cards I look at when sideboarding.

I believe the main reason why the threads on Red Death you've been reading has been dismissing cards like Terminate is because the deck was originally designed around splashing red for burn as both removal AND as reach to speed up the deck's clock. It took the versatility of burn and made good use of it. Now that there's creatures like Tarmogoyf running around (ie. stuff that's out of Bolt-range), burn's effectiveness has taken a hit. That's there the Gatekeepers come in.

Terminate, while a solid card and one I really like, simply does whatever Black's already really good at. If you want singletarget removal that can only serve as removal I think Snuff Out might even be better than Terminate in this deck thanks to it's alternative and aggressive mana cost allowing you to cast multiple spells a turn.


And I definetely agree with Metalworker on Dystopia. That card's such a beast. :)

[nedleeds]

These lists look really suseptible to mana screw. Discounting wasteland and dark ritual ~16 mana producers seem low for a deck running things that cost BBB and 2BB. Dark Confidant decks can cheat with mana a little. A well placed stifle on your fetch or an opposing wasteland could be nasty.

[Qweerios]

Terminate, while a solid card and one I really like, simply does whatever Black's already really good at. If you want singletarget removal that can only serve as removal I think Snuff Out might even be better than Terminate in this deck thanks to it's alternative and aggressive mana cost allowing you to cast multiple spells a turn.

I disagree. The closest thing to Terminate is Smother because it takes care of almost every creatures in the format. Black has a plethora of removal but they all come with their drawbacks and limitations. For this very reason, running MB removal such as Snuff Out forces you to have an alternative in your SB. Also, any form of nonblack or 3+cc removal cannot destroy Percy.


These lists look really suseptible to mana screw. Discounting wasteland and dark ritual ~16 mana producers seem low for a deck running things that cost BBB and 2BB. Dark Confidant decks can cheat with mana a little. A well placed stifle on your fetch or an opposing wasteland could be nasty.

The mana base is the same as Eva Green. It is solid. Stifle on an early fetch is always nasty.

Aside from that, the sideboard does need work and Dystopia looks promising. Null Rod is indeed faster/better than Shatterstorm in many scenarios, including affinity. Has anybody yet pondered on the use of Magus of the Moon as a 3of in the SB?

[Augustas]

I've been thinking about this for a while... Firespout is always awesome to have, as it is awesome to have an active Bitterblossom with it. So the idea is like the fae deck, abuse firespout synergy with fliers. So the decklist...

3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir/VampireNighthawk/Hypnotic Specter

4 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Terminate/Firespout
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual ( I have mixed feelings about this card, and I honestly don't want to use it)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

mana as usual, along with 6-8 fetchlands to power out early Tombstalker

what do you guys think?

[Qweerios]

I suggest you get -1 Blossom and -3 Hymn for +2 Thoughtseize/Inquisition and +2 Firespout. If you are going to abuse blossom and therapy, it is more important that you see your opponent's hand more often.

But honestly, if you want to abuse blossom and jitte, I don't think red is the right color. I play the very same deck but with white and I get to use Stoneforge Mystic and Vindicate over Lightning Bolt, Terminate, and Firespout.

[Augustas]

I don't want to play those boring Eva Green and Deadguy lists and it's always interesting to think outside the box. And anyway, this is kinda Red Death so why we should be considering something not BR in the first place?

So I'v tried it on MWS. I propably lost only against merfolk because of their mana denial plan with stifles and wastes. The only thing I didn't like is Persecutor, but I honestly don't knwo how to replace them. so the decklist lookes like this

3 Tombstalker
3 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Vampire Nighthawk
he makes up for the lifeloss, increases random burn matchups to auto-wins and can always trade with anything.


4 Bitterblossom
four of these, because you always want one in your opening and two bitterblossoms 90% is gg for your opponent.

the discard package

4 Duress
4 Cabal therapy
Therapy conflicts with Tombstalker, but it kinda depends on the situation most of the time. If you have a blossom out, you use your therapies, if you don't - stalker must eat it.
3 Hymn to Tourach
and I think it's enough for the discard, because after early game we want to draw threats, not even more discard.

the removal package

3 Firespout
the idea-giver. there's a reason why faeries want to use it. It increases any aggro/tribal matchups to our favor, and anyway I heard that one sided board sweepers are srs bzns
4 Terminate
no comment here, it's really really good, against Goyf and friends, you know.
4 Lightning Bolt

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Top can be anything from Fling to Sarkhan the Mad. I personaly don't like it because most of the time in the first turns we have to tap out almsot all the time, but I got used to it and I don't know, its good with fetchlands and allows us to dig for answers.

4 Badlands
5 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

another good thing is that we can use stuff like Shattering Spree and REB in the SB.

So anyway, I'm more than positive about this one and I'll be taking it for some tournaments for sure :D

[perm]

What are the reasons to exclude bob, nighthawk and bitterblossum?

Bob
Bittlerblossom
Tombstalker

:|

[Qweerios]

I really dont know about using Persecutor without Gatekeepers. 4 Terminate and 4 Therapy looks lacking in Percy removal. Especially when you use Therapy with blossom and tombstalker, and that you want Terminate for goyfs. Also, losing rituals is making the deck slower, less explosive. If you are looking for an alternative to Percy, get Bob, he fits perfectly into what you are trying to accomplish. To me, it is a different deck altogether.

What about this list:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Bitterblossom
4 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Terminate

2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
4 Badlands
1 Mountain
7 Swamp


With such a low curve you can abuse Bob. You no longer have Firespout but you get to clear the board as it builds up with your 8 1CC 3 dmg spells.

[ZeroStride]

This may be totally wrong, but I have a soft-spot for Magma Jet. Scry would help you find a Bob or prime your next 2 cards; that being said, it's still 1 more for 1 less damage and may not provide enough value to make up that loss.

[Augustas]

Well Qweerios, our decklists are not that very different. But what I liked in the first place was the ability to use Firespout. Like, my meta has a lot of tribal, merfolks, goblins , usualy at least 40% of the field. And I never liked Chain Lightning, I've tried it in other red death decks and it wasn't very spectacular. I really want to run Bob, but it just flat out sucks with Tombstalker. And in this case, IMo Tombstalker is a must, because he's most of the time a BB beater, allowing to not to tap out. Your creature base is good, but I dunno, I need mah stalkerz alot :<

And about Dark Ritual, it doesn't win games on it's own, it makes you overextended, it is a complete disadvantage, you will never get those godlike hands with hymn to tourach/duress/w/e, and I'd rather draw some bussiness of my topdeck rather than some dead Dark Rituals. Sorry for that, but I think it's completely unneeded :/

[Qweerios]

And about Dark Ritual, it doesn't win games on it's own, it makes you overextended, it is a complete disadvantage, you will never get those godlike hands with hymn to tourach/duress/w/e, and I'd rather draw some bussiness of my topdeck rather than some dead Dark Rituals. Sorry for that, but I think it's completely unneeded :/

I couldn't disagree more on ritual there. Overextending is when you commit to a bad plan. More often than not, I have had my rituals power out great first, second turn plays with Thoughtseize, Hymn, Shades, Sinkholes, Therapies, Stalkers, and even Persecutors. The mana curve is designed to take advantage of rituals. They become giant growths for shades in the later stages of the game and are never dead when comes the time to play a second Stalker.

[ZeroStride]

And about Dark Ritual, it doesn't win games on it's own, it makes you overextended, it is a complete disadvantage
Overextension is committing resources you should have held back. Dark Ritual is there to be cast, and it's been a staple in these kind of decks since it was printed. Casting a ritual to power out a spell 1 or 2 turns early is exactly what its there for. Ritual, itself, will frequently draw the counter-spell, since the blue-player understands that they may not have the option of countering the (or all) effects played off the Ritual. When this is the case, you have *not* overextended; you have drawn a counterspell while protecting your threats. You could attempt to make an argument about card-advantage, but it would still be incorrect.

[perm]

Trying to argue that dark ritual isn't powerful is pretty absurd. You get two turns of tempo for your win con (in this case, your massive persecutor on turn 2) before the opponent can draw into or untap for an answer.

Also, terminate is important because unlike most other black removal, it can handle persecutor.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Overextending is when you commit to a bad plan.

Congratulations. That's the philosophy that allows Red Death to thrive. I've been playing this deck for at least 9 tournaments at Eli's place. Quite needless to say, I've tested every card you can possibly think of in a modern pre-Emrakul tournament environment.

Sinkhole - Wasteful, cut it and run Hymn. Seriously, Hymn's nasty, it's like a heat-seeking missile.
Wasteland - Awesome, especially with Needle.
Blightning - not powerful enough. Two cards and three damage, has never made anyone I played against shit themselves.
Chain Lightning - Redundant, you run Lightning Bolt, and you're just making your Zoo build weaker.
Bitterblossom - *chuckle*.
Tombstalker - Nice fat. Problem is the yard. Especially when you hock it just to put TS on top of it because you flushed a FoW.
Duress/IoK/TS - You don't need 1-spots. They're wasteful late-game, which is where your attention needs to be with Red Death.

What you're going to find is that you'll have Percy and no way to get rid of him. Or a handful of 1-spots against Standstill. Also, all the builds I've seen here have *dick* game against something like Belcher or SI. And don't tell me that's what spot discard is for.

After almost a year of 2-5, 3-4, 4-4 finishes, and even a decent showing at GP Columbus, I can tell you without a doubt that there are some small inconsistencies in what you think this deck should be doing.

First things first. Sac outlets. That's the way you do Percy. Therapy is wonderful but I like Fling, and much prefer Diabolic Intent. Oh so many Bant and Zoo n00bs have been owned by Intent. Swing, swing, swing, Intent for Bolt. It works, and once you understand that Intent is faster than StP and Path (since fucking n00bs always try to play it IRT announcing attackers) you'll have no problem getting rid of Percy.

Secondly, burn. If you run burn, run LB and nothing else. You don't need more than that.

Thirdly, look at your life. Fetches, returnable burn, Bitterblossom, and Confidant. I'm shocked you ever saw a Turn 7. VNH does not mitigate all of these conditions, especially when you Bob into Tombstalker. I've seen that, it hurts.

All in all, I've decided for my build, to aim for a more control-ish style.

Creatures
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Blazing Specter
4 Ball Lightning

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle

Spells
2 Fling
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Damnation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual

Land
4 Badlands
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Anarchy
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Leyline of the Void

No, people don't like playing against it.

[Qweerios]

Thanks for the insight. Your reasoning is logical and mostly derived from bad experiences, I apreciate that. Some very useful comments in there. I agree that Sinkholes have been suboptimal lately which is why I only run them because of Magus of the Moon in the sideboard. Diabolic intent is a great find and I definitely intend on trying that out in conjunction with Blossom. A few things don't appeal to me much though. 1 CC targeted discard is exteremely good, especially in conjunction with cabal therapy. When you get to see your opponent's hand within the first three turns of the game, you know exactly what to play, when to play it, what to expect, and what to therapy for. Thoughtseize/Duress is well worth the spot and works wonderfully when smoothing a ritual or assuring a win con. Another important point to me is Tombstalker. IMO, he is the number one reason not to run Bob. He is extremely fast, strong, evasive and easy to cast, can conveniently shrink goyf to a certain extent, and can abuse rituals. Also, why would you want to live to see a turn 7? If by turn 7 you havent won or severely handicapped your opponent, your deck isn't doing its job. The main reason for suicidal cards is because they have an impact on the game that outweighs the life loss. Although, life totals are important nonetheless and suicidal cards should only be played when bringing a clear advantage (such as Bob, TS, and to a certain extent, Blossom). Chain Lightning rarely ever bounce back to your face simply because it requires RR to be recast. Assuming your opponent has RR opened, he has to either know you were about to cast chain lightning or play a red deck that can afford to have RR opened (Burn decks are the only ones I can think of). As for sac outlets, it's about running cards that are good on their own and do not depend on having a Percy in play. Gatekeeper, Therapy, and Terminate are all good cards to use that can either disrupt your opponent, clear your opponent's board, or kill Percy. Fling and Intent are potential dead cards, they are simply fancy sac outlets that should be used as tech.

As for your deck, I have a few questions:

Why the manabase? You do not support wastelands and are extremely vulnerable to wastelands (19 lands and spells up to 4CC). It seems to me like you had terrible experiences with Stifle and gave up on fetchlands, basic lands, and therefore swapped Tombstalker for Ball Lightning.

Why Blazing Specter instead of Hypnotic Specter? It attacks when it is cast, but it is cast a turn later, which comes to basically the same except that the discard isnt random. 4 CC is too much for the poor creature, especially with 19 lands.

How do you ever know what to Therapy for? Do you just randomly name a card that you don't want cast against you? or do you wait until you can flash it back right away or have 2 in hand? It seems to me like you only use it as a sac outlet, fling or intent would be better in Therapy's stead.

Pithing Needle main deck? How do you know what to use it for?

Chalice main deck? Your spells range from 1-4CC, what the??

No offense to you sir, but your deck list looks bad to me. Perhaps it works in your circle of friends or local store but I highly doubt it would fare well in any other environment.

[Top Deck]

if you are going blazing specters then why not try this list out for size?


3 Blazing Specter
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Plague Spitter
4 Demigod of Revenge

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Terminate
3 Blightning
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabolic Intent

4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Badlands
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit

[Qweerios]

Unfortunately, just posting a decklist oftentimes doesn't speak for itself. It very much looks like a suboptimal midrange b/r deck with a recollection of favorites. Blazing Specters are still bad and I see no synergy. Please refrain from posting decklists without any analysis of pros and cons.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

No offense to you sir, but your deck list looks bad to me. Perhaps it works in your circle of friends or local store but I highly doubt it would fare well in any other environment.

None taken, it's natural for someone to question the parts they're unsure of.

Needle almost always names Waste, Top or Jitte. They're serious problem cards for this deck. Not to mention that its nice to have a good reactive way of dealing with those pesky abilities.

Chalice can be set all the way up to three with DR in there, and at any rate, setting @ 1 is powerful against just about anyone, and shuts off LB, StP, and PtE, which are all the one-spots I care about. As for turning off Therapy and Ritual, well, if I'm setting Chalice at 1 you can bet I don't give a shit about Therapy, it's still functional. And Ritual, well, you can bank I already cast one to get the Chalice out.

Blazing Specter wins games. Period. There is no greater achievement than watching your opponent forced to choose one (or usually two, since they tend to have deck-sex) cards from his carefully-sculpted plan, that in a matter of a few turns, is reduced to topdecking his way to a game loss. Hippie is an iconic classic, I'll grant you that, but haste makes waste, especially when combined with flying and discard.

As I said in the beginning, I've been playing this deck for a while. I know what beats it, and that's what I Therapy for. Spot discard was thoroughly tested (Duress, IoK, TS, Encroach, Shattered Dreams) and found to be lacking. Topdecking one of 8 spot discard spells has cost me at least ten different games. That warrants a cut in my book.

And the reason I don't put Wasteland in the list is I don't own any. Otherwise, they'd replace Blood Crypt. As far as basics, I've been mana-locked in both colors, so I decided, since I have the means of being almost all-dual, might as well shoot for it. The only experience I've ever had with Stifle is when it was cast on Blazing Specter's combat ability......*chuckle*

Trust me, once you get over Gatekeeper's inability to swing the game, the almighty and unnecessary Bob, and your complete inability to deal with artifacts and enchantments, you'll be changing your mind. I did, and I'm winning more games now.

Besides, only idiots guess with Therapy. You can usually tell what your opponent is playing with the first land drop. And if you can't, they're more rogue than this deck, which has quite a few surprises up its sleeve.

Notable victories include Dredge g2 + g3, SI, Belcher (Hymn FTW), NOCT Bant, Aeon Bridge (Needle + Chalice = :D), Fish, Aggro Elves, TES (back when I ran Shadow of Doubt), the list goes on. Zoo is still the biggest headache but early Hymn can assist with that, not to mention Chalice @ 1 shuts off 90% of their creature base and creature disruption.

[Bigface]

I can't see any reason for playing Blazing Specter over Hypnotic Specter. Hypnotic:
- Can be played turn 1 with Dark Ritual;
- Discards random cards (which can hurt A LOT more, since people tend to choose the card they need the least to discard);
- Costs 1 less for the same body;
- It's mono-black.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

I can't see any reason for playing Blazing Specter over Hypnotic Specter. Hypnotic:
- Can be played turn 1 with Dark Ritual;
- Discards random cards (which can hurt A LOT more, since people tend to choose the card they need the least to discard);
- Costs 1 less for the same body;
- It's mono-black.

You obviously don't have to sculpt your hands. Must be a Zoo player.

Discard hurts either way, it's really a matter of preference to the player. Besides, I always loved giving them the option, it's not like they don't still have to contend with Hymn.

Thoroughly, BS has proven its mettle to me. Whether or not you think him valuable, well, how many people want ass flavored popcorn?

Don't like him, don't run him. Stick to an iconic creature that draws the eyes and evokes the memories. Besides, I've only ever had someone Path or Swords him once or twice, whereas my brother runs Hippies, and they eat everything, because everyone knows them. I've gotten more cross-eyed n00b looks on him than any other creature I've tested.

And when you play them back to back and your opponent is suddenly discarding chunks of his hand, that he has to pick, you'll find that it really doesn't matter if you choose to waste the time agreeing on a 'random' solution, or just force your opponent to do all the leg work.

[klaus]

cool deck.
have you considered grim lavamancer (possibly over firespout)?
i think one terminate should be a smother since you don't always have a badlands online

[Qweerios]

cool deck.
have you considered grim lavamancer (possibly over firespout)?
i think one terminate should be a smother since you don't always have a badlands online

I did consider grim and i'm still considering him. Although, if I have a choice between playing more tombstalkers and more lavamancers, I choose stalkers.
Yes I tried smother and it doesn't get rid of Percy. I understand that it is more easely casted than terminate as far as creature removal goes but the deck also contains 4 bolts and 4 gatekeepers. Having a badland online is very important and easely achieved.

As for the Hypnotic vs Blazing argument. Seriously, think about it. Why do your opponents remove him more than your blazing? Simple, hes more dangerous. A good strategy doesn't rely on tricks and surprises, if a card is cheaper and stronger, use it.

Pithing Needle now, naming wasteland? Since when is red death worried about having an opponent "waste" a land on destroying one of yours, thats contributing to your own agenda!

For Chalice, if you set it at one in the fear of 1cc removal, why not preemptively strip that removal from your opponent's hand a turn sooner with 1cc targeted removal instead and NOT block yourself from using ritual or bolt or therapy. Why go as far as making 3 cards in your deck dead weights in the hopes of nullifying 1-2 of your opponent's?

Blind therapies, it is not because you know every card in your opponent's deck that you know every cards in your opponent's hand. If my opponent plays counterspells and swords in his deck, what do i blindly therapy for? Also, why go for a lone sword when you could be previously informed of his 2 copies of counterspell? Therapy without hand information is as bad as using lightning bolt on the table next to you. What you are doing with your therapies my friend is exactly what you stated idiots did, you are guessing. Nothing more, nothing less.

On an ending note, be careful of your assumptions. You do not know how many games, what decks I have played, what cards I have tested. Perhaps I have even more experience with that deck, perhaps I have played without enchantment removal in the past, perhaps Bigface has never even played Zoo before.

[Bigface]

I do still think random discarding hurts a lot more. When your opponent has useless cards in hand or stuff he'll gladly discard (Wonder, Rootwalla, Vengevine, Life from the Loam and similar) he'll just discard them. When he "sculpts his hands" he'll choose the least useful card he has. Random discarding has the potential to remove your opponent's biggest threats, expecially when he has only few cards in hand.

I'd rather try Shimian Specter:
+ It exiles cards, which is good against lots of decks nowadays;
+ It exiles ALL copies of that card, which could strike a lethal blow on an opponent's game plan by taking away their threats/answers;
+ It lets you decide what to pick.
- Doesn't have haste;
- Doesn't discard lands.

I guess a player that have been sculpting his hand carefully wouldn't like you raping his hand, and that he'd rather face a Blazing Specter.

And no, I've never played Zoo. I stick to aggro-control.

[DarthVicious]

I'd love to run Simian Specter... Just nasty.

But I'll stick with Hypnotic.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

People not removing BS from play is exactly why I play him. I'm counting on my opponent wasting Paths and Swords and the like on getting rid of Percy or VNH. It's not a trick, he means business.

As for him vs. Hippie, they both attack on the same turn, regardless of whether or not you use a Ritual. Furthermore, BS cannot be Smothered. (And yes, I have tendencies to be matched up against mono-black.)

Shimian does look super-tasty though, I loved having Extirpates. :cool:

[TheSleeper]

How about something like this?

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Gatekeeper of Malikir

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bitterblossom
3 Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Fling

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
10 Swamp

One of Red's benefits is that it doesn't have dead removal; it has burn. Grim Lavamancer is recurring removal that can also hit your opponent (as opposed to times where Terminate is a dead card). He gives Trible decks fits on his own. For this reason I opted for no Tombstalker. Percy can come out faster than Stalker and we have plenty of ways to sacrifice it.

Bitterblossom + Jitte can straight up win games. Hippie & Persecutor can also carry Jitte (I've even killed a Percy with Jitte counters). Fling combos with spare Percy's, and can be used for tricks with Jitte (pump a flyer, bash, fling). Plus Percy+Fling is just badass and I give props to the OP for including it!

Malikir is another Percy-outlet however can be crucial against SnT decks if your meta has them.

No Nantuko as that card is always underwhelming to me. Yes its a mana-sink late game but Bitterblossom is just such a better two-drop its no contest.

Only card I wish I could fit in is Hymn to Tourarch, a card I have always loved. Due to synergy between Bitterblossom, Therapy (and Percy) though, I went for Thoughtseize so you can see their hand and make Therapy more devastating. I believe Wasteland is at its strongest in conjunction with Stifle/Hymn, so opted not to include it at this stage, as the deck is pretty heavy on Black mana as it is, and adding extra non-basics like Urborg etc. opened me up more to opponents Wastelands. I myself have been blown out by opposing Gate decks who start with T1 Seize, T2 Ritual, Therapy, Bitterblossom. I have no qualms about returning the favour.

[Augustas]

TheSleeper, think about Bob. You can switch them with Hippies. And also you have no answers for fatties, so I think Terminates is a must :)

What about sideboards?

4x Pyroblast
3x Perish/Firespout
3x Engineered Plague
3x Open slot
2x Tormod's Crypt

[FieryBalrog]

Creatures
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Blazing Specter
4 Ball Lightning

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle

Spells
2 Fling
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Damnation
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual

Land
4 Badlands
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Anarchy
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Leyline of the Void

No, people don't like playing against it.

Ball Lightning? Really? In this kind of deck?

And what's with this mana base?

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Ball Lightning? Really? In this kind of deck?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
.
Yup, in this kind of deck.

[Clark Kant]

Where is Grim Lavamancer? Where is Kiln Fiend to pair with Fling and Assault Probe?

If you don't want to play Lavamancer, how about a Burn Persecutor Deck.

Basically...

4 Abyssal Persector
4 Tombstalker
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Fling
4 Assault Strobe
4 Terminate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize/Innocent Blood
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lightning Bolt/Fireblast
22 Land

Big ass creatures coupled with the most powerful and brutal instants and sorceries in the game.

[Qweerios]

How about something like this?

3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Gatekeeper of Malikir

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bitterblossom
3 Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Fling

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
10 Swamp

One of Red's benefits is that it doesn't have dead removal; it has burn. Grim Lavamancer is recurring removal that can also hit your opponent (as opposed to times where Terminate is a dead card). He gives Trible decks fits on his own. For this reason I opted for no Tombstalker. Percy can come out faster than Stalker and we have plenty of ways to sacrifice it.

Bitterblossom + Jitte can straight up win games. Hippie & Persecutor can also carry Jitte (I've even killed a Percy with Jitte counters). Fling combos with spare Percy's, and can be used for tricks with Jitte (pump a flyer, bash, fling). Plus Percy+Fling is just badass and I give props to the OP for including it!

Malikir is another Percy-outlet however can be crucial against SnT decks if your meta has them.

No Nantuko as that card is always underwhelming to me. Yes its a mana-sink late game but Bitterblossom is just such a better two-drop its no contest.

Only card I wish I could fit in is Hymn to Tourarch, a card I have always loved. Due to synergy between Bitterblossom, Therapy (and Percy) though, I went for Thoughtseize so you can see their hand and make Therapy more devastating. I believe Wasteland is at its strongest in conjunction with Stifle/Hymn, so opted not to include it at this stage, as the deck is pretty heavy on Black mana as it is, and adding extra non-basics like Urborg etc. opened me up more to opponents Wastelands. I myself have been blown out by opposing Gate decks who start with T1 Seize, T2 Ritual, Therapy, Bitterblossom. I have no qualms about returning the favour.

Thank you for your insight Sleeper and solid list. I have a few questions though:

12 Fetches and no Wastelands. Have you ever wished you had wastelands? do you really need 12 fetches to feed 3 Lavamancers? It looks like you are going a bit overboard.

Why Hypnotic over Hymn or even Terminate? Discard must occur asap to have the most effect, specter without a ritual is a control card, and a slow one at that. Also, your removal package consists of 2-3 dmg bursts and gatekeepers, IMO you need more variety. I didn't count Jitte because a charged Jitte usually spells game over.

Finally, is Grim really better than Stalker? They both affect the board at arround the same time except that Stalker will put your opponent on a 2-3 turn clock. TS is actually good with fling and is much harder to remove. If I could use both I certainly would but they dont get along together. Another important point is that Stalker usually beats Goyf. I think that grim would be much better in a more Red Death style of deck that abuses more burn spells and some of confidant's CA.

I have used Blossoms and Jittes for a long time in a deck that actually centered on getting both out. Perhaps the combo would work well independantly of a drawing engine or tutor ability. I still doubt the effectiveness of each card on their own. We have a low creature count for Jitte and I am not sure about Blossom's potency without a Jitte on the field.

Here is what I would consider:


Creatures (10)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Spells (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fling
2 Terminate

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Swamp


12 Ways to remove Percy, 6 reactive ones that can effectively be used without Percy, and 6 that can be used independantly as removal. The list is very tight and I wish I could put in those extra 2 Terminates and maybe some more extra 1cc disruption for hand infortmation but the only thing i can think of removing are Hymns, but that would be insanity. Duress over TS because the deck already has 3 blossoms and 8 fetches of life lost, and 10 creature removal cards.

[Qweerios]

TheSleeper, think about Bob. You can switch them with Hippies. And also you have no answers for fatties, so I think Terminates is a must :)

What about sideboards?

4x Pyroblast
3x Perish/Firespout
3x Engineered Plague
3x Open slot
2x Tormod's Crypt

So far this is my working sideboard:


4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
3 Firespout
3 Shattering Spree


Pyroblast is interresting but idk what to trade out for it.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm currently working on a B/r legacy build that is similar to these lists. Here is my initial list:

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Tombstalker

4x Dark Ritual
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Blightning
4x Blight

21 lands

That makes for 54 cards, giving me 6 flex spots. (I am using Blight over Sinkhole for budget reasons.)

So here are the cards I"m considering for the last 6 slots:

1) Hymn to Tourach
2) Lava Blister (could this be good?)
3) Rain of Tears/Stone Rain
4) Lightning Bolt
5) Sadistic Sacrament

I would love some feedback on this!

[Qweerios]

I'm currently working on a B/r legacy build that is similar to these lists. Here is my initial list:

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Tombstalker

4x Dark Ritual
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Blightning
4x Blight

21 lands

That makes for 54 cards, giving me 6 flex spots. (I am using Blight over Sinkhole for budget reasons.)

So here are the cards I"m considering for the last 6 slots:

1) Hymn to Tourach
2) Lava Blister (could this be good?)
3) Rain of Tears/Stone Rain
4) Lightning Bolt
5) Sadistic Sacrament

I would love some feedback on this!

Land destruction is not a main concern, it is essentialy for tempo and destroying basics in cases where your opponent is mana screwed. Sinkhole is one of those cards that is powerful and suboptimal at the same time. It has lost most of its effectiveness over time but is still unreasonably present because of its flavor and nostalgic value. Can't afford them? No problem, you are probably better off without them. With 4 Percy you at least need 10 cards to get rid of him, the more, the better. For every turn that you can't get rid of him while your opponent is at 0 life, he becomes theoretically weaker. As awesome as Blightning feels, it isn't worth the spot. It is basically mixing two bad cards in one (Lava Spike and Mind Rot). Hymns and Bolts are way stronger for countless reasons. With this being said, here are my suggestions:

-4 Blight, -4 Blightning
Bad cards, dont use them, they make your deck bad. Now you are left with 14 cards, here are suggestions:

Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize: An ideal first turn play often consist of seeing your opponent's hand and denting his gameplan. The 3 cards are equally good depending on your meta (Duress for control, IoK for aggro, TS for aggro/control). I like 4-6 sources of 1CC discard.

Terminate/Innocent Blood/Smallpox: You need removal, targetted is better since you play gatekeepers. Targetted removal is better in cases where it is your main source of removal, although, coupled with burn, sac effects are just as good. I like 2-4.

Cabal Therapy/Fling: A contested card choice. While those cards are awesome and consist mainly of surprise effects or techs, they are dead cards on their own. Therapy is actually usable on its own, but barely. I suggest you either use a high creature count or Bitterblossoms with Therapy. I believe a solid deck should not revolve arround tricks and surprises. If it works without them, don't implement them. Stay away from Therapy if you can't abuse it.

Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning: Fill every remaining spot with these, they are NEVER dead cards, they are dirt cheap to cast, and most importantly, they are powerful. Truly legacy cards. Good news, Foil Chain Lightnings from Fire & Lightning packs go for 6-8$ each. Run 4-8

You have a good creature base. Getting Bob is expensive $wise and opens up a whole new can of worms. Alternate between Hyppie and Vampire Nighthawk depending on your meta. Jitte's, while expensive as well, do fit in your gameplan.

With this being said and given your current decklist, here is what I would do:


Creatures (15)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Spells (25)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Terminate
2 Fling

Lands (20, 22 If you run Wastelands)


With such an aggressive list, I figured Gouger might be better than Specters or VNH. He also survives Firespout postboard. The list looks very Budget to me and looks like it would be relatively easy to cast without 8 fetchlands and 4 dual lands.

Good luck and give me some news!

[Mr. Safety]

Awesome, thanks!

Hows this for a list?
15 dudes
4x Gatekeeper
4x Persecutor
4x Hyppie/Nighthawk/Gouger
3x Tombstalker
24 spells
4x Dark Ritz
3x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn
4x Terminate
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Shard Volley
21 lands
15x Swamp
3x Tainted Peak
3x Sulfurous Springs

Whatcha think?

[Qweerios]

Awesome, thanks!

Hows this for a list?
15 dudes
4x Gatekeeper
4x Persecutor
4x Hyppie/Nighthawk/Gouger
3x Tombstalker
24 spells
4x Dark Ritz
3x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn
4x Terminate
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Shard Volley
21 lands
15x Swamp
3x Tainted Peak
3x Sulfurous Springs

Whatcha think?

Sounds good, get some Blackcleave Cliffs and Dragonskull Summits, they are dirt cheap. Lose Shard Volleys for a Percy sac outlet. I would use Fling over Therapy there.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Results of recent Legacy tournament in Vestal:

I ran the following,

Maindeck
4 Blazing Specter
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Terminate
4 Badlands
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
3 Ball Lightning
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Fling

Sideboard:
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Damnation
4 Demigod Of Revenge
4 Volcanic Fallout

Round 1:
Stifle-naught. 0-2
Paired against a former opponent of the first incarnation of this deck, which I won off the back of Shadow Of Doubt. This game, not so well. Even given MD Chalice and Ritual, I couldn't land anything on the board. Way too much permission in his hand, both games. Game 2 was embarrassing, I kept a hand I should have thrown back, and he waffle-stomped me with a turn 2 Naught.
Thoughts: Beatable, kicking myself for really not thinking about that matchup.
Sideboarding: None, I relied on drawing Chalice. He relied on drawing Force.

Round 2:
?!?!? W/U/B 2-1
This was some funky shit. Everything in his deck costs two mana, of different colors. Looked like Deadguy Ale with subpar creatures, no real threats, and Daze. He boarded in Meddling Mage against me, only once naming a card I had in my hand. Game 1, he won, I lost my only threat to a Sculler, and the Persecutor I topdecked couldn't block after being Vindicated. Game 2 was an absolute pounding. Abyssal Persecutor + topdeck Cabal Therapy, he had Daze in hand and couldn't stop me from winning. But that's what happens when you say, "I'll go to zero, I can't lose." Game 3 was a fucking war, creatures were being traded, Volcanic Fallout made an absolute shamble of his offense, allowing me back the Nighthawk that spared my life long enough (he was racing me with Creeping Tar Pit, chuckle) to drop him to 4 with VNH, putting me at 4, he swings in with Tar Pit, knocking me to 1. I rip Blazing Specter off the top, and he remarks, "Are you fucking kidding me?" as I'm swinging in for the win. Epic.

Round 3:
New Horizons 0-2
God I hate this deck. It's Zoo but blue instead of Red, just another shitty reason for punks to run FoW and Daze with Goofy. Had my second turn Jitte Dazed, wasn't too thrilled, I was aiming to blow up his with it. Creatures didn't stick around long, but that GD Jitte did.
Thoughts: Didn't side, his creatures were too big for Fallout, and everything else was pointless. At this point I'm doubting the effectiveness of Demigod, as I haven't seen a situation where he would have been useful.

Round 4:
Counter-Top Jace 1-2
Nightmare. Finally met this guy, and I like him, one of the few players I've met with an actual fucking brain. I'll be perfectly honest, this match was a giant blur. I distinctly remember watching him draw-go and discard 1-drops like StP and Top to my Chalice @ 1. One move I really enjoyed was Ball Lightning-ing Jace. Followed up with a second BL and an active VNH, that led to my only win in this matchup. Chalice fucked me good game three, I had a handful of Needles, he lands Jace, Fateseals my creatures away, and leaves me with a library of worthlessness leading to losing the match.
Thoughts: Didn't side, all the weapons were there. Just needed Volrath's Stronghold in g3, that was all I needed. Kicked myself for running Terminate over Intent, but what are you gonna do? Would love to face him again.

Round 5:
Dredge 2-1
This was hysterical. Game 1 he manages the perfect draw, the perfect dredge, and hits me for 21 on turn 2. I resolve to put an end to that jankness. Side in Leylines. Drew 7 g2, mulled to 6 and got double Leyline. Drop with land, he drops City, scoops. I watch him side furiously for like 5 minutes, trying to thoroughly randomize his deck. Game 3 I draw awesomeness. Open 1 Leyline, he drops City, says go. I drop Badlands, double Ritual in Persecutor. He scoops. I must say it was rather choice.
Thoughts: I was praying all day to face this guy. I tested against a Dredge deck, Leyline + Chalice @ 1 is an auto-win. Needless to say I did feel sorry for the guy, he wasn't expecting Leyline that day, and he wound up facing the Brothers Grim, and losing to both of them.

Round 6:
Stiflenaught 2-1
Seated next to my carmate, faith of a victory in my hands, and the feeling of revenge coarsing through me. Game 1 was a basic getting-to-know-you game, he won with Dreadnaught. Game 2 I turn 1 Ritual, Therapy for FoW, nail one, and drop Chalice @ 1. The whole game was just watching me kill him with VNH. :) Game 3, T1, he goes, Fetch, go. I go Badlands, Ritual, Ritual, Hymn, Chalice @ 1 with one land and a VNH in my hand. About six turns later, my hand is full of meat and I start drawing land. Commence aggro ass-whooping.

Round 7:
Zoo 1-2
My most hated matchup, and the one I have the worst luck in. Game 1 was Goofy and Pridemage, not nice at all. Game 2, I Chalice @ 1, he sits there until VNH turned his face into goo. Game 3 was a fucking battle of biblical proportions. Chalice @ 1, meets Pridemage. Army of <3 toughness, meets Fallout. In the end, I needed Damnation. Didn't get it. Heartbreaker.

Overall, this deck was impressive. Percy met very little resistance he couldn't handle, Hymns were heat-seekers, and once again, as it has happened once every tournament, Blazing Specter results in a solid win. Like I keep saying, haste makes waste. Therapy was spot-on, it pays off whether you name right or not. Fling was dead almost every time I drew it. Either I didn't have the mana to use it with BL, or I was tapped out when they cast Swords.

Final 3-4.

[Qweerios]

1 CC removal will greatly improve you Stiflenaught matchup.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Chalice @ 1 worked. Quite well.

[TossUsToLions]

Why aren't the lists that aren't running Confidants playing Firespout? I would run 3 main, and another in the board. This card is so good against every aggro deck, but doesn't hurt our creatures

[KærvekTheMerciless]

What Volcanic Fallout doesn't solve, Terminate does.
What they fail to kill, Damnation does.

Firespout is underclassed by the uncounterable Fallout in my opinion anyways. Besides, if it lives through those, and my creatures, then it's Konda, and I'm not too worried about him.

[Qweerios]

Why aren't the lists that aren't running Confidants playing Firespout? I would run 3 main, and another in the board. This card is so good against every aggro deck, but doesn't hurt our creatures

What do you suggest we cut for them?

[TossUsToLions]

What do you suggest we cut for them?

From your deck, Qweerios, I am not sure what I would cut to be honest as I really like your list. But from what others have I would cut Lavamancers, Sinkholes, Blightnings, Diabolic Intents or Chain Lightnings. Firespout hurts Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Elves, and Affinity, which is a big part of the current metagame (according to the last few SCG tourneys). It also doesn't hurt our Persecutors, Tombstalkers, Nighthawks, Hippies, or Ashenmoor Gougers. And it works wonders with Bitterblossom

[Qweerios]

From your deck, Qweerios, I am not sure what I would cut to be honest as I really like your list. But from what others have I would cut Lavamancers, Sinkholes, Blightnings, Diabolic Intents or Chain Lightnings. Firespout hurts Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Elves, and Affinity, which is a big part of the current metagame (according to the last few SCG tourneys). It also doesn't hurt our Persecutors, Tombstalkers, Nighthawks, Hippies, or Ashenmoor Gougers. And it works wonders with Bitterblossom

I know all that but the only thing I can think of would be cutting Lightning Bolts.. All the other optimal spots to change would lower the Percy sac outlets. Really mind boggling!

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Isn't that what sideboards are for?

[Qweerios]

Any thoughts on Skittering Skirge? I haven't played the card ever but it looks like it could be good with a version running main board Bitterblossoms, Firespouts, and about 6 demons. The card looks pretty good but compared to VNH, I don't know.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Nope. He just doesn't do anything for me. As far as Fling-bait, he's a Lightning Bolt, so for three less mana I get the same damage, and don't have to play around him. Thus he is underwhelming as far as the rest of the creatures are concerned, he'll offer zero board control for anyone except us, meaning we won't play creatures until he either dies or gets exiled.

He's something that belongs in some budget-build of monoblack.

[Spigore]

Here is what I would consider:


Creatures (10)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Spells (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fling
2 Terminate

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Swamp


12 Ways to remove Percy, 6 reactive ones that can effectively be used without Percy, and 6 that can be used independantly as removal. The list is very tight and I wish I could put in those extra 2 Terminates and maybe some more extra 1cc disruption for hand infortmation but the only thing i can think of removing are Hymns, but that would be insanity. Duress over TS because the deck already has 3 blossoms and 8 fetches of life lost, and 10 creature removal cards.

I like your list Qweerios, made some minor changes:


Creatures
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual
3 Terminate
2 Fling

Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
6 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badland
4 Wasteland

-4 Duress to +4 Thoughtseize
-2 Jitte, -3 Bitterblossom to +4 Sinkhole +1 Terminate

As you said earlier, running Blossom and Jitte makes your deck more aggressive.
I've always loved a set of Sinkholes (alongside Wasteland) with hand disruption. It just has so much impact on the opponent, which could even turn out having them Draw-go for a couple turns.
I've also added a single Mountain, personal preference.
Please let me have your thoughts!!

Does anyone have more reports on how Red Gate performs? Any matchup reports?

[keys]

I like the Thoughtseize, but cutting BB and Jitte seems like a poor decision.

[Qweerios]

I like your list Qweerios, made some minor changes:


Creatures
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Instant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual
3 Terminate
2 Fling

Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
6 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badland
4 Wasteland

-4 Duress to +4 Thoughtseize
-2 Jitte, -3 Bitterblossom to +4 Sinkhole +1 Terminate

As you said earlier, running Blossom and Jitte makes your deck more aggressive.
I've always loved a set of Sinkholes (alongside Wasteland) with hand disruption. It just has so much impact on the opponent, which could even turn out having them Draw-go for a couple turns.
I've also added a single Mountain, personal preference.
Please let me have your thoughts!!

Does anyone have more reports on how Red Gate performs? Any matchup reports?

Looks fine. It is pretty much the same as the original list I posted on the first page exept that you went -3 Nantuko Shade, -1 Terminate for +4 Cabal Therapy. I'm not saying you have to agree with shades but I don't really like Therapy without disposable creatures or Bitterblossom. Reasons why I don't run Therapy in this version of Red Gate:
- potential dead card without hand information
- cannot fuel Tombstalker if you intend to use it to sacrifice Percy
- isn't worth the inclusion

For this last point it seems to me like you lowered your threat count for it (no more blossoms, no more shades). I don't believe 3 stalkers and 3 percies will be enough to beat your heavily disrupted opponent down, simply because you might not draw into enough of them.

Also, I will post results monday.

[blaat]

Played/tested with a similar list with 8 threats (tombstalker and 4 test slots or percy) and gatekeeper and I must say it is sometimes difficult to find one.
Remember that even if you kill their hand and land count, there's always a good chance of a topdeck removal spell during your 3-4 turn stalker/percy clock.
Especially against control with ponder/bs/top effects.
I found out that the gatekeepers did the most damage in all games, although pretty normal because it's a must counter, not an insta-removal catcher.
I think maybe 9-10 should do it along with some gatekeepers.

Another thing is Sinkhole.
Very underplayed at the moment, but it shines in so many matchups along with wastelands to punish those with a weak manabase.
When they fetch their one-off basics (especially game2 etc) they get even better.
If you have some space, add a side boarded bloodmoon effect to the game to seal the deal (problem, opponent?).

[Spigore]

@ Qweerios and keys
Thanks for your comment, I do have to agree that I was a little worried cutting out the Blossoms and Jitte.
Running Sinkhole is imho a must. It's devastatingly powerful. I think the third Terminate should stay as well.

@ blaat
Thank you for the input. As Qweerios noted, my list runs less threat over more disruption/control.
Cabal Therapy seems like the weakest card in this list. Qweerios, which I totally agree on; without the info, it's a risky card to play, though I think the Flashback tech with Percy is golden!

Freeing up the slots of Cabal Therapy, is going back to Hypnotic Specter a viable (slow)beatstick? It provides flying combat damage alongside hand disruption. I think it beats a little slower than BB, though it nets you more control and time due to its discard effect.
Although Jitte is a powerful card, the only creature lurking for it's power would be Gatekeeper. By the time Percy/TS hits your opponent for 5 or 6, the added Jitte effect is becoming less useful since the game is pretty much set. Bear in mind you are spending two turns sinking 2 mana in this artifact.

To sum things up -4 Cabal Therapy +3 Hypnotic Specter +1 Abyssal Persecutor?
Very open for thoughts, I really like all your lists so far.
Looking forward to your write-up Qweerios!

[Augustas]

As usual, everything looks nice on paper, but realisticly talking, will your LD package will be effective in Aether Vial era? I wouldn't switch BB/Therapy for mediocre card choices such as Sinkhole. It was talked before about in basicly every thread that uses black except combo decks,Sinkhole is bad in the current meta.

So, yes, maybe my opinion doesn't mean much, but I would never cut the option of one sided Firespout synergy, endless chumpblocks and synergy with CT. Yes, BB has it's weaknesses, but it's just too good not to play it.

What I do like is TheSleeper's build. I would cut Flings and one Jitte for Hymns and Bolts with Terminates, as there isn't much answers to KotR and Goyf.

[Angelfire]

Reckless Abandon is dying for a slot in a deck of this style. It isn't instant speed, but it is great with Persecutor, Bitterblossom and as Bolt/Chain 9-12.

[Augustas]

and it's terrible early-mid game

[blaat]

As usual, everything looks nice on paper, but realisticly talking, will your LD package will be effective in Aether Vial era? I wouldn't switch BB/Therapy for mediocre card choices such as Sinkhole. It was talked before about in basicly every thread that uses black except combo decks,Sinkhole is bad in the current meta.


This is indeed a meta choice.
However, even against vial it still shines and complements wastelands.
I won't use the full 4-off but 2-3 is a fine number.

Example:
Horizon decks : Karakas, maza of ith, treetop village, gaea's cradle.
Merfolk: Splash lands (plow/perish lists), mutavault.
Goblins: splash lands, but mostly dead, since it doesn't really have any impact.

Nevertheless, if you can't handle vial anyway, the above doesn't really help you.
But in my opinion, this deck should kill (vial) aggro if built correctly, say it with hand disruption to make their vial a bit dead or with lot's of creature removal (SB tech will also help a lot).

[Qweerios]

I wouldn't say Sinkhole is a mediocre card as I have used it very often with Vindicate and Wasteland and it performed wonderfully. Although, unless you are commiting to a LD strategy, sinkholes might not be the best choice when you have access to more burn, discard, or threats.

I know I said I would post results tonight but unfortunately I didn't play any magic this week. Most definitely next week.

[blaat]

I wouldn't say Sinkhole is a mediocre card as I have used it very often with Vindicate and Wasteland and it performed wonderfully. Although, unless you are commiting to a LD strategy, sinkholes might not be the best choice when you have access to more burn, discard, or threats.

I know I said I would post results tonight but unfortunately I didn't play any magic this week. Most definitely next week.

I played a few matches past days.
The maindeck land/hand control package I really like is:
2x Sinkhole
4x Wasteland
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Duress

*I don't play blossom+therapy or thoughtseize in the deck, but a few TS in the SB for combo/control.

Zoo (multiple times): never went lower than 14 life, double hymn and LD for the win and auto-wipe creatures that enter play. Even had Perish in hand but didn't need it.
Hit their white mana to keep them off path to exile if you feel you need to protect your fatties.

Dredge(two times): If they don't go off T1 you can win it. Land destruction shines here and you can target yourself with gatekeeper or similiar effect to get rid off bridges. Duress on breakthrough 2 times (my t1) was the winning play. Even when there eventually came some tokens in play, I could just firespout them away in time.

CounterTop Jace2.0 (multiple times): Tough, you think you're in good shape after a few discard and landdestruction spells, but they just race you with their card advantage/selection, finding a plow for your fattie etc.. With relevant sideboard cards it is winnable, but unfavorable for now.
All these games started good in my favor, but the inevitable countertop-lock or jace2.0 in play lost me all but 1 game.

[Qweerios]

Would you say splashing a Bayou for Krosan Grips sb would be worth it?

[Augustas]

Well, with the 3d colour we have an option for EE :]

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Jund was barely viable in Standard, why try and break it for the faster and more vicious Legacy?

Stick to 2 colors guys, don't muddle the mixture. As far as artifact destruction, red has faster options, albeit counterable ones, but still faster.

[blaat]

Would you say splashing a Bayou for Krosan Grips sb would be worth it?

Not sure about this.
Persecutor and Tombstalker get past counterbalance most times (at cmc4 they have Jace, and sometimes a few on-offs, depending on their built like moat with thopters, control magic/sower).
So they need to answer that with countermagic or suitable removal most likely, which they shouldn't have if you play it correctly (discard spells etc).
Problem is, they have answers outside their hand accessible with top/brainstorm/ponder(even better in combination with fetch land in play).
So even if it resolves, they have a good chance in finding an out in the next 3-4 turns you need to win.

I think you are better off fighting this with additional discard and pithing needle for jace and top (and other relevant cards).

[Qweerios]

Here are some tournament results with the following list:


Creatures (13)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Spells (26)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fling
4 Terminate

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
5 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
3 Shattering Spree
3 Firespout


First round I get a bye.

Second round against UWG countertop 2-1
G1: I open up with Wasteland and tripple Sinkhole and beatdown with a Malakir.
In 2 Needles - Out 2 Flings
G2: I get CB locked and scoop when Prog hits the table
G3: 2 Hymn (he forces one), Wasteland, 2 Sinkholes, and 2 Malakir on Goyf (he dazes one) nuke his board, I beat down with Tombstalker.

Third round against homebrew G/B combo 1-2
G1: Bolts and Terminates on birds and tinder walls and 2 sinkholes + wasteland for complete mana screw, beatdown with Tombstalker
In 2 Firespout - Out 2 Flings
G2: Open up with Duress, a Wasteland, and Bolt a bird. I draw into 2 rituals, a gatekeeper, and a Terminate that i held on to facing 2 birds 2 tinder walls and a wall of blossom. He hard casts a Protean Hulk. I play my gatekeeper asking to see his combo. He fetches reveillark and some duplicate clone and begins reviving and copying a Mogg Fanatic.
In 1 Firespout - Out 1 Gatekeeper
G3: I open up with 2 wastelands and 2 sinkholes and a bolt on a bird, then I lay down a Percy and beat his life down to 0. I am holding 3 dark rituals and 1 firespout with a Percy and, 6 lands in play against my opponent with 0 life, holding 7 cards with a tinder wall and zero lands in play. My opponent remains mana screwed for 6 turns and I draw into lands for 6 turns. He eventually sacrifices his wall to a wild canthor to then cast a bird and lays down a forest. I draw another Firespout. He lays down a city of traitor, NO into Hulk and I lose to his combo.

No fourth round, we called it a day. Somehow ended up in 3rd place.

I had very Sinkhole heavy hands and they worked wonderfully. Counterbalance is a pain to bypass but at least our threats get through. I could have easely won that last match if I didn't board out 3 of my 10 sac outlets for Percy.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Totally lazy on my part, never bothered to do this until now.

Results from Jupiter tournament. (3-4)

Decklist:
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Blazing Specter
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Garza's Assassin

4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice Of The Void
2 Fling
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Terminate

4 Badlands
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Damnation

Round 1: Matthew w/ LED Dredge 1-2

Game 1 was the standard nuts draw, blah blah blah, FKZ, L.
Game 2 I throw 7 down to 6 and get double LL in play, he double Chains them back to my hand, and I battle through the Zombies to eventually get triple LL in play, he has no answers for it. W.
Game 3, my open @ 5 was LL and 4 lands. I would have won this game were it not for me missing that he was recurring Ichorid with LL in play. After I found this out, I wanted to punch myself. L

Round 2: Brandon w/ Green and Taxes 0-2

This was a wash, I've never played against this shit before. So many abilities, so little time. Even with MD Needles, Terminates, AND Garza's Assassin, I found myself lacking proper weapons to combat this deck. What I needed to beat him was Wasteland. Both G1 and G2, scoop to Mangara-Karakas lock. Very tasteful to watch my permanents get exiled one at a time.

Round 3: Greg w/ Show And Tell 0-2

My friend, hysterical. We both slow-played each other, and I remembered that I have no weapons save the Assassin against a resolved Emrakul. Oops. Quick set, then off for some moral support.

Round 4: Glimpse Elves 2-0

I think his name was TJ, or it could have been Ty, i don't know, but on his first play I pegged him as Glimpse Elves. He goes Forest, Wirewood Symbiote. I untap my BC, drop Chalice @ 1, and begin slow-playing. Percy comes down, he reads the card and says, Wow. The next turn I drop Jitte and equip, swing, wrath his board, pass turn. Lather, rinse, repeat, GE is a bad aggro deck with Chalice @ 1 in play, LOL. Game 2 was a carbon copy of the first game.

Round 5: Andrew w/ Affinity 2-1

Nice. G1 was what I've come to expect, getting to know you game. Of course I get screwed on lands and he wins. G2 results in my opponent scooping to a resolved Persecutor, (I had no sac outlet but he didn't know that) and G3 was my deck going straight hardcore aggro.

Round 6: Token w/ 4C Control 2-0

ROFL. That's about it. Pregame shenanigans, and finding out he has only two win-cons, both Needle-able, I quickly realize this guy is not playing a threatening deck. Chalice @ 1 resolves, nuking his Stp, BS, and other junk. Percy comes down, meets NO resistance, and beats for the win. Never in my life have I seen Counter-Top fold up and die so easily. He would have had to keep his Jace on top just to stop Percy. LOL.

Round 7: Scott w/ Fish 1-2

G1 I draw a BC, play it untapped, and Ritual in Nighthawk. He won me that game. G2, he goes for the aggro approach, and beats me in the face with several d00dz. G3 was the most epic battle, finally ending with him at 1 life. I couldn't draw a sac outlet to save my life.

Results:
Another 3-4 performance from this deck. WTF.

[mujadaddy]

WTF.Garza's assassin & Blazing Spectre are sub-par, is probably what's wrong.

[perm]

Yah both those cards are pretty awful. Blazing specter is just a much worse hypnotic spectre. Garza's assasin is just garbage.

[Qweerios]

More results... I made top 8 and I believe I was 5th or 6th place. Lost my last round to the winner. Aproximately 30 contestants.

R1 vs Goblins 2-0

G1: Ritual gatekeeper on his t1 lackey followed by 2 more gatekeepers. Gatekeeper beatdown wins.
In 3 Firespout 3 Needles 2 Plagues - Out 4 Duress 4 Sinkhole
G2: Bolt on t1 lackey followed by double hymn. Percy beats then gets bounced then Tombstalker beats and takes the win.

R2 vs Bant Aggro 2-1

G1: Hymns, Sinkholes, and Wastelands ruin his board. I beat with Percy until he draws a StP at 11 health. Gatekeeper beats to death while I bolt and Terminate his board.
In 3 Shattering Spree - Out 2 Fling 1 Percy
G2: Bolt on noble, Sinkhole on basic and double wasteland his duals. He had a 3 land hand and top decked 3 more, layed down a KotR that I terminate. I have 2 lands on the board and 2 Percy in my hand. He lays down another KotR and beats me down with it. I got greedy with wastelands and never layed a threat.
G3: I Open up with Duress followed by 2 Hymns and clear his board with Gatekeepers. I beat him down to 11 but lays down SoFI and Stoneforge Mystic fetching SoBM. I drop a shade, he drops a goyf. I beat down with shade while blocking with gatekeepers. I terminate his creatures when equipped and he collapses unable to cast swords and equip them fast enough to stabilize.

R3 vs Countertop Painters 0-2

G1 I muligan twice and keep a hand with 2 lands. I drop a sinkhole. I remain at 2 lands for 3 turns holding a Percy. My opponent counters everything I play at this point and I get painter stoned.
In 3 Pithing Needle 3 Shattering Spree - Out 4 Lightning Bolt 2 Fling
G2: I muligan once and keep a hand with 1 land a duress and 2 bolts. I draw into terminate and rituals but no threats and no lands for 4 turns. While I have a pithing needle on stone on the board my opponent lays down CB and Top and locks me out. He lays down jace and fateseals me until I scoop. A dissapointing final.

[Qweerios]

While playing the deck I noticed that playing Percy was a heavy investment. Even as a 3of we need at least 10 other cards to get rid of him. The problem arises when trying to sideboard Terminates or Flings out and having to remove Percy as well. I wonder if Ashenmoor Gouger might be a good replacement. As far as Gouger vs Negator goes, they both cant block, negator is 1/1 more, tramples, and cannot afford to be blocked.. making trample almost irrelevant. Also, he has to be sided out when Firespouts come in. Gouger has a 4/4 body that resists bolts and firespouts. He may have a thicker casting cost and beat for 1 less but I believe he is the best 3cc beater B/R has to offer.

Another alternative would be to go more of a turbo control route where you lay down continuous disruption while relying entirely on Tombstalkers and Percy to win you the game. Here is what I have in mind:


Creatures (12)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Tombstalker

Spells (26)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Badlands
5 Swamp
1 Mountain


If the more control route doesn't work, I can always cut 3 Arenas and 1 land for 4 Sinkholes. Any opinions on Phyrexian Arena?

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Arena pwns. Tested it last night.

[Qweerios]

Today I got 2nd place with a B/W variant (White Gate or w/e). Considering I splashed red for Bolts, Terminates, and tech Fling, I have now switched to white for various reasons:

Swords to Plowshares > Lightning Bolts. I have never used bolts as burn reach and I can use StP as additional Percy removal.
Vindicate > Terminate.
Fling was likely to be sided out.
Firespout was nice but considering my meta, Perish and Runed Halo give me better results (Prog/ANT).

Here is my current list:


Creatures (12)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Tombstalker

Spells (26)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Phyrexian Arena

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Runed Halo
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Arena


Round 1 vs Burn/Sligh 2-1
G1: He drops leyline of punishment, beats with spark elementals, chain lightnings, i take a ball lightning to the face and lose despite my opening hymn and Percy.
In 2 Engineered Plague - Out 2 Phyrexian Arena
G2: He opens leyline again, I open Tourach, sinkhole him, vindicate his Grim Lavamancer, beat him down with Percy and Tombstalker. Game ends with me at 4 life.
G3: He opens leyline again. I sword his hellspark elemental and ball lightning. IoK + Hymn his hand away, land a tombstalker and beat him down. I vindicate and sinkhole mountains meanwhile. I swing for the win at 7 life with him holding 2 Fireblasts but only has 3 mountains down.

Round 2 vs Rock Combo (NO, Prog, Body Double, Reveillark, Mogg Fanatic, Protean Hulk) 0-2
G1: quick Birds of Paradise into NO Prog, I am holding no answers.
In 3 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Perish, 2 Runed Halo - Out 4 Sinkhole, 2 Dark Ritual
G2: He lays down BoP, Fauna Shaman, and a little zombie that cant block but sacrifices creatures. Meanwhile I vindicate his dual land and hymn his hand to nothing. I am on 2 lands holding Perish, Vindicate, and Percy. He draws into duress and strips my perish, I draw into wasteland. He discards Hulk to Fauna, fetches academy rector, plays him, sac him, fetches Pattern of Rebirth on Fauna, sacs him and grabs body double copying Hulk and I get comboed into reveillark + body double + mogg fanatic for a zillion damage.

Round 3 vs Merfolks 2-0
G1: Ritual + Arena into mass sinkhole, wasteland, vindicates. i drop Percy vs a zero land board and beat to death.
In: 3 Engineered Plague, 1 Pithing Needle - Out 4 Sinkhole
G2: Ritual into Plague. He drops a lord and I hymn him. He beats be down a couple of turns with a 1/1 while under standstill. I break it with a tombstalker that he counters and drops another standstill. A few wastelands and mutavaults later, I break another still with an Arena this time. He drops a fully leveled coralhelm and counters my first percy. Gatekeeper gets his lord and he counters a Percy. I lay down another Percy and we race. I beat him to death. I am at 7, him at 0. I hymn his hand down and gate my Percy for the win. A seemlingly impossible game to win after breaking 2 standstills but it happened.

I tied for first place with the combo rock guy and got 2nd.

I won't be posting any updates on Red Gate as I have now fully switched to White Gate. Vindicates completement sinkholes beautifully and Arena has been MVP. Even though Bob swings for 2 and comes down a turn earlier, he is much more vulnerable than Arena and a risky play with 4 Tombstalkers, 4 Percy, 4 Vindicates.

[Spigore]

Sup Qweerios!

Been a while since I've been on the board. Finally got some time again to play some MTG and here I am, with a full list.
I'm currently playing the below list and I'm totally in love with it!


Creatures (10)
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Spells (25)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate

Artifacts/Enchantments (4)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
6 Swamp
1 Mountain


Cabal Therapy is such a nuthouse, you really want to play this one. I found some space to play the Jitte/Blossom pack by removing the Fling slots. Fling is imho more of an win-more card versus most decks.

So far it's working very good. Blossom gives a lot of pressure versus control and it builds you a nice wall versus Zoo/Tribal.
The land destruction + discard package is imho golden in the early turns.

[Qweerios]

Looks pretty good mate. How are blossoms working out for you? Do you ever have trouble getting rid of Percy? I have pretty much moved on from the deck but if you could post some tournament results it would be nice.

[Spigore]

Blossoms are disturbingly good. It gains you so much defense in the aggro matchup and gives you a fast clock vs control/landstill.
I tested with triple Nantuko Shade, but Blossom is such a blowout! Besides that, versus the aggro matchups, gaining chump-blockers out of the enchantment, it will save up some of your spot removal for Percy.

I was not sure if the Rituals would be worth a slot, though I'm having so many fantastic blow-outs on the play/draw with Thoughtseize + Blossom being the most devastating.

Other than that, never had much problems finding/having an outlet for Percy. Versus heavy control/countertop decks, the flashback cost of Cabal Therapy serves you just fine.

[Qweerios]

Looking back at this deck, Kiln Fiend looks like a good card when used for his consistency as a 4/2 or 7/2. I have been fooling around with the latest a Phyrexian Obliterator but found out that even though he is stronger than Percy, I never reached BBBB to cast him. Building the deck around Fling/Fiend/Percy looks like a great aggressive alternative to Firespout.

First, lets have a look at what made this deck strong:

-The big creatures
-The constant removal
-The heavy core of black disruption

What the deck lacked?

-Card drawing
-Sideboard options against enchantments
-The impossibility to side out creature removal without siding out Percy

With the addition of Kiln Fiend, burn and cheap/cantriping spells become much more appealing and fueling your hand of cards is now essential. Although, with Tombstalkers and Persecutors, Dark Confidant is out of the question. This is what I have in mind:


Creatures (14)
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker

Spells (24)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fling
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Phyrexian Arena

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Terminate
3 Shattering Spree


The Gitaxian Therapy package is ideal for this deck because it offers free Fiend pumps, hand information for better Therapies, a free cantrip to go through our deck quicker, and most importantly, gives us 4 additional copies of uncounterable Percy outlet. Also, because we use Percy, Gatekeepers are a must and Therapy gives them that secondary use after they have been kicked. With 2 Fling and 4 Therapy maindeck, the Terminates have been moved to the sideboard for the more aggressive Chain Lightning. I have removed the Engineered Plagues from the sideboard because the deck packs so much creature hate in its 75 (Bolts, Chains, Terminates, and Gatekeepers) that goblins, merfolks, and elves literally cannot stay on the board.

[Clark Kant]

That list looks incredible.

Paying 3 mana on Chain Lightning to kill your own Persecutor is a great play, as is flining Kiln Fiend of Percy or Tombstalker for the win.

And the Probe + Cabal Therapy package looks incredible and also feeds both Kiln Fiend and Tombstalker. I love how well the deck synergizes with it self. Every card in the deck serves several different roles.

Have you considered Manamorphose instead of Phyrexian Arena. It feels Tombstalker, feeds Kiln Fiend and fixes mana for Gatekeeper, all while thinning the deck.

[GradStudentGuy]

How does everyone feel about Chaos Warp main deck? It is basically an instant speed vindicate that can hit our own Persecutor.

[Qweerios]

Chaos Warp is definitely a good red removal card that would serve as sideboard material as a Vindicate. I think Manamorphose might be a good inclusion because of how hard it is to have the right mana combination when playing around Wasteland. Manamorphose also allows us to pay for Probe's manacost when we dont want to pay 2 life.

I have playtested the list a few times and really like how an unblocked Kiln Fiend dished out 23 damage with a Probe, an IoK, a Bolt and a Fling.

[Greenpoe]

What about Magma Jet as a 2-of? Sometimes it's bad, other times you remove lands off the top, and at those times, it's priceless.

[Qweerios]

Magma Jet is still too expensive to cast for what it does. It is a good card, just not good enough.

On another note, Bob is too strong to pass up with Kiln Fiend and burn. Here is my latest list:


Creatures (18)
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor

Spells (22)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fling

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Chaos Warp
2 Shattering Spree
2 Terminate

[jlagrav]

Hey everyone, I'm building a R/B list and found this thread and I think my deck kinda fits. Red for some burn, black disruption, then finish off with a fatty. Here's the list I'm testing now:



Creatures: 14
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Obliterator

Spells: 26
4 Sensi's Divining Top
4 Lightning bolt
4 Terminate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquision of Kozelick
4 Geth's Verdict
2 Blightning

Lands: 20
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained mire
3 black fetch
1 red fetch
5 Swamp
3 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Duress
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast



My list is a bit disruption heavy because my Meta has a bunch of combo and blue control. I almost want to put 4 of both Pyroblast and REB in the board because I really hate blue lol. What do you guys think?

[Qweerios]

Looks fine except for a few things. How do you cast Ob with 3 basic mountains and no Dark Rituals? I don't think you'll be able to cast him when you're facing a Wasteland. 4 Tops is too much for any deck, even countertop. Also, 8 main board creature removal spells is a lot. Add some threats or some burn instead, they have multiple purposes and won't be dead cards.

[jlagrav]

I really haven't had a problem casting oblierator, yea wasteland can set me back a turn or 2 but with all the fetches I can get to 4 B pretty easily. I used to play with less tops but I would never seem to draw one, I guess just my bad luck. So maybe something like this:

-1 top
-2 terminate
-1 geth's

+2 gatekeeper
+2 chain lightning

[Spigore]

Hey all,

After a couple of months I've decided to step away from this deck, though it's nice to see people still adapting with Kiln Fiend.
I would strongly suggest Bitterblossom. It's really a powerhouse vs control. Basically every game where i rushed out a t1/t2 blossom were won.
My experience is that Sinkhole, in the right (opening) hands can be a gamewinning card, though proceeding to t3+ it drastically loses its power. In my latest list, I stopped playing Sinkholes.

In playtesting, the only thing Obliterator made me do was facepalming over its manacost.

I like your latest list Qweerious, though I would run Thoughtseize over Kozilek and cut the Flings for Terminate.
Also, where did Hymn go to? :eek:

[Qweerios]

Ah you read my mind. I have not posted it but I did change the Flings for Terminates and did weep over the loss of Hymn. Sinkholes bit the dust in favor of burn and I had to lose Wasteland because the deck is so mana hungry for black and red. The Gitaxian Probes have also left the deck in favor of a Duress/TS mix.

About IoK vs TS. It is obvious that TS is a better card when isolated from context. Ever since IoK was spoiled from Eldrazi I have made the swap from TS to IoK in all of my black based decks. IoK can discard virtually any legacy card with the exception of Jace, Natural Order, and Jace. These are the only 3 four cmc+ cards that that I commonly see. Jace usually eats the burn and rolls over and FoW is something I honestly dont mind leaving in my opponent's hand when I pack 4-8 other sources of discard. Unless I am facing lots and lots of sneak attack or artifact stompy decks, I will gladly play IoK over TS. Furthermore, TS' life loss cumulates with Bob, fetches, and blossoms to the dangerous point where many of those have to be sided out in the aggro matchup.

However, I will admit that I do miss Hymn and Ritual greatly.

Here is a new concept I am trying:

Kiln Fiend discard

Creatures (18)
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nyxathid
3 Abyssal Persecutor

Spells (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Terminate

Lands (18)
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

[neosatus]

Hey Qweerios, saw this post was yours and recognized you from the "Special Forces" thread, decided to check it out. Just played two games on Cockatrice with your latest version and had to share how they went.

Game 1, I join this guys game
I open with Dark Rit > Bob.
He plays Goblin Gaveleer.
I play a second Dark Rit > Percy.
He plays a Paradise Mantle and equips to the Goblin.
I play Gatekeeper, making him sac his Gob, then swing with Bob and Percy.
He kicks me from the game.

Game 2, I host a game and the same guy rejoins
He leads off with Glimmervoid > Bonesaw.
I open with IoK and grab his Puresteel.
He then drops Lightning Greaves, going down to two cards in his hand.
I play Hymn to Tourach.
He disconnects.

The hate is strong with this one.

[Qweerios]

Ah! Black is indeed a color that tends to be hated and discriminated against. No pun intended... :P

[Greenpoe]

Doesn't 18 lands seem low to support a 4-drop? When you don't manage to stick a Bob, getting to 4 lands can be difficult with only 18 land. You could drop Persecutor for the 4th Nyxathid, trade Therapies for Thoughtseizes, and add in a couple Tombstalkers, or Nantuko Shade if you're afraid of Bob+Stalker, since both of them go well with mid or late game Rituals.

[Iare]

Qweerios, You don't run enough discard for Nyxathid. If they misstep your Inquisition you are likely going to wiff with therapy therefor making Nyxathid an inconsistent card in the deck as it is built. I would replace them with the forth terminate and two reanimates, I love reanimating bob or my opponent's Tarmagoyf. Plus they are easy targets for boarding out against combo :)

[Qweerios]

Dark Ascension gives a new toy to this deck: Geralf's Messenger

Rehashing Fling with Cabal Therapy and Abyssal Persecutor sounds like it could make a good mix coupled with red burn, Hymns, and Bob.

Furthermore, DKA isn't done spoiling Undying creatures, Fling feels ripe again.

Also, I didn't tinker with Red Gate for a while, I haven't tried Liliana of the Veil yet...

[Qweerios]

For Freggles:


Creatures (16)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
4 Geralf's Messenger

Instant/Sorcery (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach

Other (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
6 Swamp


I didn't actually test it out but I feel like Therapy and Smallpox are some of the best ways to abuse Bloodghast. If you choose a red splash for bolt spells in a deck abusing those interactions, Messenger fits quite nicely. I filled the blanks with Legacy staples.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

I've found that Liliana isn't quite as effective as you might think. I wouldn't run her, she's too fair. This deck has to do alot of 2-for-1's to be effective. Plus in recent testing I've discovered this deck has an AMAZING game against G/W Maverick.

This actually happened:

T1: Badlands, Ritual, Ritual, Duress (nails only Swords), Persecutor. Instant win. :-D

[Qweerios]

I've found that Liliana isn't quite as effective as you might think. I wouldn't run her, she's too fair. This deck has to do alot of 2-for-1's to be effective. Plus in recent testing I've discovered this deck has an AMAZING game against G/W Maverick.

This actually happened:

T1: Badlands, Ritual, Ritual, Duress (nails only Swords), Persecutor. Instant win. :-D

I don't see how that's conclusive. Would you mind elaborating a bit on your findings?

[KærvekTheMerciless]

That is an example of one of the plays that, in my experience, has caused opponents to pick up their deck, and walk away.

I remember one I did at GP: Columbus.

T1: Swamp, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Hymn x2. Nailed his only lands (2), a Vindicate, and a Inquisition of Kozilek. He scooped.

Which findings are you referring to? Liliana, or G/W Maverick?

As far as Liliana, forcing yourself to discard cards, well, without some manner of draw engine, you're gonna burn out quick just trying to increase her loyalty. And really, her -2, thats underwhelming at best. It doesn't mean that she is terrible, just terrible in this deck.

Consider how long you'll have her on the table vs. Zoo.

As for Maverick, well, one of my playgroup partners built it out of spare cardboard, and needless to say, if you played against a deck and won 9 times in a row, well, you would say that too.

[Spigore]

I just couldn't resist picking up this little gem.

3 Badlands
1 Mountain
7 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor

3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dreadbore

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual

Looking back to my previous list; I found myself empty handed during midgame. Rarely even topdecking and waiting for a Percy outlet. Putting some card advantage through Dark Confidant seems like a good idea. Unfortunately pretty boy Tombstalker has to go in favor of the little man.

I found Gatekeeper of Makalir, asking for BBB, a little hard to kick. Vampire Nighthawk seems like a very powerful replacement, netting you some lifepoints per swing to cover up Dark Confidant's life loss.

With the coming of Dreadbore, this auto replaces Terminate. Can't wait!

I've been crunching over Dark Ritual. Mid/Late-game it loses it's edge, however I just can't seem to move this card out. There are numerous 1cc and 2cc cards (or Nighthawk) to blow out on the first turn. Second turn Percy or combinations of two 2cc's are monsterous as well.

I'm not sure yet on the 4 Dreadbore, 2 Cabal Therapy. Toying around with a 3/3 split ; it feels better mid/lategame, to play 4/2. There's just more raw power in Dreadbore when you want to fully turn the game to a win.
Therapy serves as a more safe Percy outlet as well, but meh.

Sideboard being worked on.

[Greenpoe]

Gatekeeper's BBB does get easier to hit with Ritual though. Plus, you need the outs for killing Percy. With only 2 Therapy, no Gatekeeper and no Terminate, good luck killing your own Percy. Is Bolt even that good when you could just play Lavamancer or even both Gatekeeper & Nighthawk?

[kwis]

I don't understand why a Persecutor deck is playing less than 4 Cabal Therapy. It's quite likely the most broken card to use with him. Not to mention busted for BB openings.

You almost always want your removal for him to be a Cost so that whenever you have priority you can simply end the game after dropping their life <= 0


I also think and Eva build would likely be more effective than a red death one given how potent Decay is. Dreadbore is really just a worse terminate, it's sorcery speed and the only planeswalker you might try killing is Jace, after he pays himself back.

[Spigore]

Hi Greenpoe,
Dreadbore is able to kill Percy as well. The problem I came across with Gatekeeper that you sometimes get stuck, not being able to BBB. Yes Ritual does solve that. However casting BBB for the main purpose of removing your own creature is a useless mana-dump. You don't want to play agressive and keep your Gatekeeper in your hand, waiting to topdeck Percy or waiting for Percy to hit your opponent to 0.

Hi kwis,
Thanks for your response. You are very right. C.Therapy is a very powerful card. However it loses it's edge after stripping down your opponent's hand during the first turns. Dreadbore keeps it's value, especially when your opponents are straight out playing their topdecked cards.
I'm still not sure whether or not Therpay/Dreadbore should be 2-4 or 3-3 or whatever.
Yes, Abrupt Decay is a strong card. EVA Green does play a little different from (Red) Gate though.

[Qweerios]

Desecration Demon is a straight upgrade from Percy.

[kwis]

Desecration Demon is a straight upgrade from Percy.

Not sure about that, any kind of recursive or token dude laughs at him.

Bitter Blossom
Lingering Souls...
Bloodghast
Gravecrawler
SFM + Batterskull w/5 mana

[slave]

I've gave the RB and WB version of the GATE deck a shot against some of my straight up combo decks.
And it failed miserably.... Inquisition of Kozy really isn't the best choice against some decks, I really think you need Thoughtsieze in there to get the higher cost stuff like Omniscience, Griselbrand, Hive Mind etc. Some extraction here would REALLY help too.
Jitte is an all-star, one of the best parts of the mono-black gate, why is it not in most of the lists anymore?
My Dream Halls deck isn't really competitve as I run a lot of basic lands, and after about 20 games of testing to both WB & BR I couldn't win more than 1 game with Gate, apart from the one time I drew False Cure in my opening hand and I lost my win-con to Inq. of Kozy.
1/20 is abyssmal VS a slow combo deck. (turn 4 or 5)

This deck could do with more disrupting your opponents' strategy maybe.
But at least this deck IS fun to play.:smile: