Spiral Tide

[egosum]

I think that this list no longer belongs to Spring Tide Trhead, this is why I started this one for everyone who want sto talk about it. The list below is just my idea of the deck, but it is still very open, so I expect more people posting their versions here (mono color or with different splashes) so everyone can discuss, and hope that together we find a final strong list.


"N.S.T. - Negation Spiral Tide"

Main deck 60

4x Force of Will
4x Pact of Negation

4x Merchant Scroll
2x Cunning Wish

4x Explore
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

4x High Tide

1x Brainfreeze

4x Time Spiral
3x Turnabout

3x Tropìcal Island
7x Island
8x Blue Fetch (2 each)

Sideboard 15

1x Brainfreeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
2x Krosan Grip
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Reubild
1x Snap
1x Mindbreak Trap
4x Spell Pierce/Dispel (to make the mirror, or the match against ther combo, stronger, I ' m fan of spell peirce over dispell since it is stronger against Tendrils storm, to protect discards and counterbalance, though dispel is better for the mirror.)

Mian game plan: deck your opponent with a single big brainfreeze (or make him/her draw with an Stroke of Genius). To do this you have a new Weapon time spiral. In this shell 2 very regular and strong plays (so you can go off by turn 3) are like this:

Turn1: land (cantrip optionally)
Turn 2: land + explore + land
Turn 3: land + high tide + Time Spiral

or

Turn 1: land (cantrip optionally)
Turn 2: land (cantrip(s) opotionally)
Turn 3: land + high tide + turnabout (on you chosing untapping lands) + Time Spiral

This doesn't pretend to be a primer so if you have any questions about card choices or anything else relevant about the deck, feel free.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[HurpDurpification]

no ideas unbound or meditate main?

is there a reason you play the ponders and preordains as 4 of's instead of cutting them down to fit in ideas and meditate?

[egosum]

As I said, this is no Spring Tide, nor solidarity. The deck has a different approach to the high tide engine. Meditate and Ideas unboud are but redundant in with Time Spiral. Maybe a singleton Meditate for tutoring if needed can do the trick, but not in big numbers. Having as many 1 cost cantrips as possible (speciallyif they are good ones) is great for sculpting hand pre and during the combo, the idea is that you only need to repeatedily play high tide and time spiral's while cantripping for to generate more storm and find these pieces over and over again until you have reached the desired storm amount.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[fdiv_bug]

Did some quick tests with it, and I like it. It's a good list; thanks for sharing it, and for starting this thread, egosum. I don't know whether I like it more than current Spring Tide lists, but testing will certainly determine my stance on the two different directions for the deck.

[ScatmanX]

Imo, Pact of Negation should be Xantid Swarm if you're running green.
They are simply much better mid combo, where you can be screwed by opponents counterspells, and, like Pact, you don't have to use mana in your combo turn to cast it.
Specially good against Merfolk. Only having to worry against Cursecatcher is awesome.

[rufus]

Ideas Unbound seems like an incredibly strong fit. It is technically -1 card, but you can use it as an ersatz cantrip on turn 2, and it's got to be really good while you're going off.

Running back of the envelope calculations, it seems like the deck will find the cards to Time Spiral by turn 3 only about 1/3 of the time - perhaps a little more with smart mulligans. Personal Tutor could help a bit since you can use it on turn 1 to fetch explore, or on turn 1 or 2 to fetch time spiral -- Personal Tutor should also be reasonably good while you're going off since it can combine nicely with cantrips.

Assuming the deck does manage to start chaining, it then has to overcome the problem that the opponent is probably drawing into hate with the symmetric draw 7s. I'm not sure that the 8 free counters are enough, though I'm more inclined to look at something like Autumn's Veil.

A bit off-topic:

I'm looking at the black splash and trying to hash out the numbers for making repeated High Tide + Time Spiral/Diminishing Returns work as a primary combo engine, and mana-wise it's pretty tight.

You want to be able to fire off your draw 7 with enough mana left available to play untap effects that you draw, so you can chain draw 7s.

With 3 lands in play, you really need to find 1 High Tide (or Bubbling Muck) one untap effect (Cloud of Faeries, Candelabra of Tawnos Toils of Night and Day and Turnabout all work) and one more of either in order to get enough mana to either cast Time Spiral or cast Diminishing Returns with enough mana left over to have a decent chance of untapping and continuing afterward.

With 2 lands in play, you'd need a cloud of faeries (or candelabra in play), two high tides, and a second untap. This is pretty tight since there are, as far as I am aware, only 2 high tide alike cards available in the card pool...

[SMR0079]

I've been testing different configurations since the unbanning and I can tell you that you don't want to have to fetch a non-island unless the gain swings a match from unfavorable to favorable. Cut Explore. You will lose more gmes to wasteland then the gain from explore.

Swarm and Grip in the side are fine as they help your 2 worst match ups, Fish and Countertop.

I think we are better off just modifying Spring tide a bit. Cloud has a the benefit of getting past curse catcher on turn three, whereas Turnabout does not. I cut the Ideas unbound myself. I do like a couple Pacts of Negation if you can find room.

Good luck

[gkraigher]

I really like dream halls and diminishing returns. You can make an argument for Mind Over MAtter also. Just throwing ideas out there.

[Kagehisa]

Blue has his version of Explore :

Retraced Image

It is blue, costs less, doesn't cantrip, works only with a full Islands build (technically it works with fetchlands too...), (after 1 Hight Tide) nets you one U without additional untap effect or additional High Tide.

Explore costs 2, needs Tropical Island, cantrips, nets you no mana unless you use untap effect or High Tide.

[Grollub]

Blue has his version of Explore :

Retraced Image

It is blue, costs less, doesn't cantrip, works only with a full Islands build (technically it works with fetchlands too...), (after 1 Hight Tide) nets you one U without additional untap effect or additional High Tide.

Explore costs 2, needs Tropical Island, cantrips, nets you no mana unless you use untap effect or High Tide.

Nice find!

However. I've been running Explore for a little bit, and have found that it's strongest ability is to pump fetchlands out to keep Brainstorm and Ponder "fresh", Between Scrolls, Spirals and Explore/Fetchland Brainstorm almost always function as a pseudo-recall.

EDIT: In the OP, you definately want a real draw target for your scrolls (Meditate).

[Scordata]

I like where we are headed with this.

So far I've been running a build with Intuition and Strokes.
I'd suggest exploring Rewind as well. Its been OK for me so far.
I run one Palinchron to make this work.

Trops and Xantid in the side.

I'll post a list after more tuning.

[egosum]

I love retraced image!

Should work on it for sure. Thanks a lot for this jewel.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[egosum]

Well maybey is too early but made soe games with a mono U list with retraced image and have to say that this card seems pure rock and roll, it alows you second turn kils with:

1T- Isand + Retraced image + Island
2T- Island + High Tide + Turnabout + Time Spiral

This is the List:

"S.T. - Spiral Tide"

Main deck 60

4x Force of Will
4x Pact of Negation

4x Merchant Scroll
2x Cunning Wish

3x Retraced image ( Huge, though not sure if 4 would be the number. I know is very strong in the opnening hand but it is also a very risky move)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

4x High Tide

1x Brainfreeze

4x Time Spiral
3x Turnabout
1x Meditate (Tutoring it maybe very important, specially since you can recur it after Spiraling)

14x Island (some may prefer more fetch but keeping high the island density is important for Retraced image)
4x Blue Fetch (but they must be the same name to improve Retraced image sinergy)

Sideboard 15

1x Brainfreeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
2x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Reubild
2x Snap
1x Mindbreak Trap
4x Spell Pierce (we have no Krosan so Pierce is more important than ever).

As I said I have to test if 3-4 REtraced image, if I had to cut something it maybe 1xPact of negation, 1x Meditate, 1x Turnabout, but Pact is the most likely, though not sure yet).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[GGoober]

Not losing to Wasteland is huge for Tide.decks. Good find on Retraced image. Now it's a debate between being Wasteland prone but having the ability to run grips in the board is superior to monoblue having less out against Counterbalance (you can use Wipe Away I guess)

[ScatmanX]

1T- Isand + Retraced image + Island
2T- Island + High Tide + Turnabout + Time Spiral
I'm sorry, but this seems really bad.
Whay would you want to do this?
You get a fresh 7, and 6 mana. I don't really like it. You have 7 cards to find (High Tide and Turnabout) with the initial 2 mana, otherwise you're pretty much screwed. And I don't count R.I. here, because it will only net you 1 mana.
How many times have you done it, and how many times have you not fizzled?
When I go off, I usually like having at least 4-5 mana the battlefield...
(for the record, my list is just like yours, but Spell Snare in place of Retraced Image, and -1 Turnabout, +1 Personal Tutor, -1 Ponder, +1 Wipe Away).

[egosum]

Fizzle, I've fizzled 1/30 times so far (aprox.), so the odds are with me, and when I say it alows 2nd turn kill is not because it is the optimal play (what high itde builds have is that you can set for a while if you have few/no pressure, but if you feel pressed you should have a B plan) but being able to do it may be nice in some matches, it also shows that the deck is a bit faster, which is a good thing in an eviroment as actual legacy is.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[mrjumbo03]

I really like the direction this deck is going...removing the cloud/snap package i think is one big improvement because you don't lose to random bolts or swords on your faeries...
Nice find on the retraced image!i'm thinking of building this now that i don't have to splurge on tropicals...

[Grollub]

Regarding the maindeck killcard, I've been much happier with a single Stroke as it both counts as fuel midcombo and finisher: in other words, I have been in situations where maindeck Stroke saved me, but not in a situation where maindeck Freeze was needed. With Scrolls it's very easy to grab a Wish->Freeze if you cannot generate enough mana with Stroke to kill.

Thanks to Spiral it's easy to generate tons of mana mid combo making Stroke a strong draw-engine for youself.

If you haven't tried it, might want to give it a go. I've been very pleased with removing the clunky Freeze from the starting 60. :-)

[fdiv_bug]

If you haven't tried it, might want to give it a go. I've been very pleased with removing the clunky Freeze from the starting 60. :-)

That's a very interesting idea, and since you backed it up with solid reasoning then I'll certainly give it a shot. Thanks for sharing this.

[ActionJunkie]

MTG Salvation forum had a guy mention using Emrakul as the primary kill card and 1 brain freeze in the tutorable SB. Solid idea considering Emrakul can't be countered and you can save your FoW for other things.

[fdiv_bug]

MTG Salvation forum had a guy mention using Emrakul as the primary kill card and 1 brain freeze in the tutorable SB. Solid idea considering Emrakul can't be countered and you can save your FoW for other things.

I dislike not being able to tutor for my primary win condition, with only one of them in the deck. It's not a bad idea, necessarily, I just would worry that I'd spend more time wishing for Brain Freeze, in which case, why wouldn't that be my primary win-con?

[godryk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Emrakul doesn't seem to work pretty well with Pact of Negation. To me, the whole idea of the deck is using Pact as FoW #5-8 in order to break Time Spiral's symmetry, which is pretty relevant against decks running islands. Maybe you can save some High Tides and pay for 1 pact, butIDK.

[ddt15]

So how does it do against the other decks in the format? It has to goldfish fast enough to outrace Goblins and Zoo, it has to be able to control the TES/ANT matchup and not get blown out by Chant/Silence after a Spiral, and it has to be able to force through that first Tide/Spiral against Merfolk and Counterbalance.

I think we should keep the combo engine as compact but consistent as possible and if possible fit some spell pierce maindeck. I like the maindeck Stroke (Brain Freeze should not be maindeck, but Stroke doubles as draw card and kill, and you recycle it with Spirals), and Retraced Image, that is a sweet find.

[ActionJunkie]

I dislike not being able to tutor for my primary win condition, with only one of them in the deck. It's not a bad idea, necessarily, I just would worry that I'd spend more time wishing for Brain Freeze, in which case, why wouldn't that be my primary win-con?

You can still tutor for your primary win condition (as THEN it would become Brain Freeze). The advantage is having an alternate which can NOT be countered so you save a counterspell for something else - also no storm count is needed.

Yes, Pact of Negation probably has to go but, again, you don't need a counterspell backup when casting Emrakul so save your counterspells for other stuff.

I'm sure you could win a few games against blue because they wouldn't see an uncounterable Emrakul coming. This probably comes down to personal taste but is an interesting alternative to playtest/try.

[rufus]

I wonder if you can use the symmetric aspect of Time Spiral in your favor with Hive Mind. That opens up the possibility of playing with Trade Secrets, and allows Pact of Negation to be a win con.

[ddt15]

I played some games against Goblins and Ichorid; This is what I have:

Main deck
4x Force of Will
2x Pact of Negation
2x Misdirection

4x Merchant Scroll
2x Cunning Wish
2x Intuition

3x Retraced image
3x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

4x High Tide

4x Time Spiral
3x Turnabout
1x Stroke of Genius

14x Island
4x Blue Fetch

Some things to consider:

- Intuition is definetly a must have in the deck, simply because it can tutor anything and can be tutored for by Scroll. I often find myself playing turn 2 Scroll, turn 3 EOT Intuition for 3 Spirals, turn 4 Win, or use it to get a second time Spiral or Spiral/Spiral/Stroke if i really need cards. At least one, I like to run two.

- Retraced Image is really good in matchups where you need to win fast, and good to build up extra mana while spiraling. If you get a retraced Image early you can go off without Tide on turn four; five land, Turnabout, Spiral. This is a great way to play around Chalice @ 1 which would otherwise be devastating against this deck. Obviously you should still bounce it as soon as you can after Spiral. Getting 2 in your opening hand sucks unless your last two cards are Tide, Spiral. In control/combo matchups you side them out for Spell Pierces.

- You need a Echoing Truth in the sideboard. I also tested 3 Propaganda's which are great against Gobs, Dredge, Merfolk and to a lesser extent Zoo. You have a chance to drop it turn 2 and you can search for it over your combo cards, cast and defend it and that gets you loads of time to go off so you dont have to risk an all-in too early.

-Your number of Islands is extremely important. The more you have, the easier it becomes to go off and also your opponents Forces after Spiral become less releveant, as you will be able to keep going through a counterspell. Because of this I don't know if Pact is the right choice, because in the matchups where its relevant you want to play slowly and get as much land in play as possible before going off. In aggro matchups its useless. Alternatively, you can try to setup a kill without using Spiral at all, with Stroke of Genius on yourself, a million cantrips and Wish for Brain Freeze.

- I think one of the main things you need to learn with this deck is winning without Tide or Spiral. There are various ways to win with Turnabout and only one of the combo cards.

[Skargath]

MTG Salvation forum had a guy mention using Emrakul as the primary kill card and 1 brain freeze in the tutorable SB. Solid idea considering Emrakul can't be countered and you can save your FoW for other things.

Emerkul works wonders in this deck. I love it. Also Tidespout Tyrant, is a fun one.


I dislike not being able to tutor for my primary win condition, with only one of them in the deck. It's not a bad idea, necessarily, I just would worry that I'd spend more time wishing for Brain Freeze, in which case, why wouldn't that be my primary win-con?

Brain freeze folds to emerkul, kozilek, etc. Mill (IMO) has lost so much steam sence RoE, almost completly invalidating it. If you know for sure you can get away with it (you need a 20 spell storm count also), go for it, but anything that plays Emerkul trumps brain freeze.

p.s. thumbs down to explore, keep it blue, wasteland hurts much less.

[mrjumbo03]

What are your thoughts on personal tutor as a way to tutor for time spiral?

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Brain freeze folds to emerkul, kozilek, etc. Mill (IMO) has lost so much steam sence RoE, almost completly invalidating it. If you know for sure you can get away with it (you need a 20 spell storm count also), go for it, but anything that plays Emerkul trumps brain freeze

Apparently someone isn't very familiar with Brain Freeze combo. Theres this cool little card called Stroke of Genius that every deck that wants to win with Brain Freeze has in the SB. If you expect one of those guys just Stroke them with the triggers on the stack. Easy Peasy.

[HokusSchmokus]

Apparently someone isn't very familiar with Brain Freeze combo. Theres this cool little card called Stroke of Genius that every deck that wants to win with Brain Freeze has in the SB. If you expect one of those guys just Stroke them with the triggers on the stack. Easy Peasy.

this or just brain freezing a second time in response.

[emidln]

this or just brain freezing a second time in response.

You: Brain Freeze with 20 storm:
Them: Ok, start milling cards
.... 12 storm later
Them: Emrakul trigger on the stack:
You: Brain Freeze with 21 storm
Them: .... sure. start milling cards until they empty their deck.
Them: let the rest of the brain freeze triggers resolve milling nothing. Emrakul trigger resolves?
You: $&%!
Them: lol n00b, l2p

[Michael Keller]

You: Brain Freeze with 20 storm:
Them: Ok, start milling cards
.... 12 storm later
Them: Emrakul trigger on the stack:
You: Brain Freeze with 21 storm
Them: .... sure. start milling cards until they empty their deck.
Them: let the rest of the brain freeze triggers resolve milling nothing. Emrakul trigger resolves?
You: $&%!
Them: lol n00b, l2p

I <3 this post.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

But what happens after that?

Them: draw Emrakul, do (?), say go.
You: Draw, do (?), say go.
Them: GG.

The only way this changes is if they have lethal on the board, and what deck currently has lethal damage on the board with Emrakul still in their library?

[Michael Keller]

But what happens after that?

Them: draw Emrakul, do (?), say go.
You: Draw, do (?), say go.
Them: GG.

The only way this changes is if they have lethal on the board, and what deck currently has lethal damage on the board with Emrakul still in their library?

Brain Freeze doesn't make someone draw anything from their library, it just "mills" cards into the graveyard. Subsequently, Emrakul would force a shuffling of the graveyard into that player's library. No one said they're going to draw into Emrakul; their library has been replenished from the Emrakul(s) that were previously dumped.

In essence, both players would be starting from "Square A", with the Tide player sporting a (likely) thinner deck in attempting to force the opponent to lose via Brain Freeze. If they didn't lose from that, all the Tide player would do is Stroke them or Words of Wisdom them with all of the Emrakul triggers still on the stack. Otherwise, the game continues.

Unless, I'm missing something else here.

[Skargath]

Apparently someone isn't very familiar with Brain Freeze combo. Theres this cool little card called Stroke of Genius that every deck that wants to win with Brain Freeze has in the SB. If you expect one of those guys just Stroke them with the triggers on the stack. Easy Peasy.

So bacially, you have to have a Stroke in hand (or wish, or merchant scroll with a main deck Stroke) and at least 4 minimum floating mana, and that's assuming lolerkul is the last card in their deck.

So then what happens if you brain freeze, with 20 storm, and they hit emerkul 3 storm in, then you need 3+x+1 mana to make them draw the rest of their deck on top of that trigger. X being the number of cards in their deck.

Someone correct me if im wrong but this does not seem "Easy Peasy" you basically have to pray that you can somehow make 40ish mana from your hand with instants. Time spiral is a sorcery.

[emidln]

If you were just playing more redundant untap effects you could easily get to 60+ mana and kill via Stroke of Genius. But really, who wants consistency?

[Skargath]

Im just trying to make the point that brain freeze is not the best win condition in this deck. That is all.

[Gocho]

Someone correct me if im wrong but this does not seem "Easy Peasy" you basically have to pray that you can somehow make 40ish mana from your hand with instants. Time spiral is a sorcery.

With Cunning Wish you can Wish for 2nd BF and then Wish for Stroke, with 2 Emrakul triggers on the stack. If you only have a single Wish go for Ravenous Trap, Remove his graveyard, let him shuffle and keep resolving your BF in the stack.

I always played Spring Tide with 3 Cunning and draw 2 or 3 almost every game, Merchant Scroll helps to get them.

[Skargath]

Ravenous Trap

Touche. And great idea.

[egosum]

I' ve been toying the idea of Ravenous Trap before in order to fight dredge decks reanimating Iona, but found Slaughter pact was by far more versatile for that matter. Ravenous trap as an anti-emrakul tech is not that great, sinceit will only work with a maximum of 2 emrakuls in teh deck (so its completely usless against Sneak show and the kind...).

-Freeze --> Emrakul appears and stacks --> resp freeze --> 2nd Emrakul Stacks --> Ravenous Trap --> 3rd emrakul stacks (still have the problem andI have lost my 2 freezes, so I have to Spiral them).

The only way it would work if the emrakuls appear in the same pile of 3, I mean 2 the first time or 2 the second, since their ability will resolove after the current copy of Brain Freeze resolves.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Gocho]

You can play both options. Ravenous in the SB is a good target. If you play vs 3+ Emrakul's you can go for Stroke of Genius. It's harder but viable.

[shaneswa]

Here is a list that I have been working on. The Retrace Images have been great for both accelerating your fundamental turn and ramping your land count during the combo I have replaced Brainfreeze with Stroke because it enables the combo and is a kill con that does not care about Emrakul. The sideboard is a work in progress... I have just added some auto includes and some utility bounce.

I would really like to find a way to drop FoW and add Chant. Time Spiraling into fresh countermagic on the other side of the table against blue can be annoying. I do not like the idea of opening myself up to wasteland and not being able to tutor for the chant pre-combo. Any suggestions on how to shut out blue players post spiral with out splashing would be helpful.


// Lands
3 [JGC] Polluted Delta
12 [4E] Island (3)
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries

// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
3 [US] Time Spiral
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [TO] Retraced Image
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
3 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [JGC] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away

[egosum]

Pacts and FoWs are more than enough as far as I 've confirmed with the testing. But if you feel that you need extra punch in those blue match ups tru Defense grid (which is specially gore with Turnabout, targeting opponent obv.).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ADC]

I'm playing a similar list than you, but i moved the 4th Turnabout MD and down the MD CoF to 2 due to you can't recur them after TS, i'm looking for a better untap spell to down the count to 0.
Image has been great for me too it's the best addition to the deck in months, i'm playing 4 MD as 2 turn goldfish is nuts and it's not difficult with this list (and the reason i haven't cut the CoF)

[shaneswa]

After doing a little research, there is Reality Spasm from RoE. Doesn't enable the turn 2 as well but recurable post spiral.

Reality Spasm English

Instant, XUU (2)

Choose one - Tap X target permanents; or untap X target permanents.

From the moment the first Eldrazi spawn squirmed free, everything on Zendikar took on an adjusted meaning, a new slant toward or away from the waking giants.

Illus. Jason Felix

[Infinitium]

Toils of Night and Day is better than that one (and still that much worse than Cloud).

[Grumpollion]

Twincast would have great synergy with much of the deck.

[Infinitium]

This is old Permanent Waves tech; but wouldn't Toils + Candelabra > Turnabout in a deck such as this? Toils effectively makes Candelabra reusable with Time Spiral, and candelabra is just peaches in its own right. Also when playing Candelabra there's no reason not to play SDT all of a sudden, Could make far an interesting shell in all.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Is scroll rack better or worse than SDT here, or would they be able to work together?

[Infinitium]

Scroll Rack seem very slow for a deck that should strive to goldfish on turn 3. Currently testing the following list btw, which seem decent at least for now. The lack of Wish hurts sometimes, but I think the easy access to the sideboarded tundras makes up for it imo, and the 1-Intuition 1-win setup has worked well insofar (getting to 11 mana to Scroll -> Intuition -> Spiral is simpler than it sounds, and it can also get BF through Scroll). I dunno about the win itself; could be Stroke, could be Emrakul.

Top has been awesome in testing btw; helps you set up, helps you recover and gives you a virtual 10-card hand after Spiraling (which is nice indeed). Candelabra is likewise pretty swell and slightly better than Turnabout if you run it off 3 lands (especially when you have multiple out and can go into the bonus with Toils).

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
10 [MM] Island (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
4 [US] Time Spiral
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [BOK] Toils of Night and Day
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [TE] Intuition
1 [SC] Brain Freeze

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [U] Tundra
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[Michael Keller]

Scroll Rack seem very slow for a deck that should strive to goldfish on turn 3. Currently testing the following list btw, which seem decent at least for now. The lack of Wish hurts sometimes, but I think the easy access to the sideboarded tundras makes up for it imo, and the 1-Intuition 1-win setup has worked well insofar (getting to 11 mana to Scroll -> Intuition -> Spiral is simpler than it sounds, and it can also get BF through Scroll). I dunno about the win itself; could be Stroke, could be Emrakul.

Top has been awesome in testing btw; helps you set up, helps you recover and gives you a virtual 10-card hand after Spiraling (which is nice indeed). Candelabra is likewise pretty swell and slightly better than Turnabout if you run it off 3 lands (especially when you have multiple out and can go into the bonus with Toils).

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
10 [MM] Island (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
4 [US] Time Spiral
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [BOK] Toils of Night and Day
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [TE] Intuition
1 [SC] Brain Freeze

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [M10] Silence
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [U] Tundra
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

This list seems inherently flawed in my opinion, for several reasons:

The first thing I noticed after looking at your list is the addition of Sensei's Divining Top. In a deck that is about as mana-hungry as any other combo deck currently in existence, biding your time using this as a primary search function above other cantrips does nothing but eat up your resources. It might buy you several turns of fixing of your draws, but Ponder and or Preordain should already be used for those purposes.

You're also diluting your sideboard for a splash into White using either Orim's Chant or Silence. While this looks good on paper, it just isn't as good here as you may think it is. This archetype sorely lacks "ritual" effects, and tapping a Tundra (which would probably eat a Wasteland anyway by the time you are ready to combo out) only slows you down further, as you need to cast High Tide first and subsequently protect it. Tundra counts as an Island, so if you tap it first, you're robbing yourself of an additional U you can use towards your goal of ramping up your mana count.

Four Candelabras are way too many. You're utilizing this as a bastardization of Turnabout and or Reset, and while I personally think it is a solid card, opening a hand with one or two of these is extraordinarily bad - especially with Sensei's Divining Top and no real other action. Turnabout can slow down an attack and shut down other decks at the end of their turn to close the opponent out using their counter-magic. I would go something like this here:

-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
+3 Cunning Wish

In this particular instance, you are able to open up your sideboard as its own win-condition. Plucking into a random Candelabra to either open the game or Spiral into it once High Tide has been active can really blow open the door to give you more access to your action spells. Drawing into multiples post-Spiral is not very good at all. This is also true for Top (one Island=UU/cast, activate).

Your list has no way of getting around Emrakul or other cards with triggered (or replacement) effects in the main-deck, which aren't as uncommon as one might think. This archetype is picking up in popularity, and being prepared Game One by having a readily available plan is just as important as your sideboard games two and three. Basically the deck auto-loses to those archetypes and forces you win Game Two, and then win Game Three on the draw. We want to win Game One, grind it out Game Two, and hopefully steal Game Three on the play (if it comes down to that).

Your list seems more dependent on opening draws and drawing out your early turns using Top and less on main-phase cantrip effects. I see Peer Through Depths, which is decent, but you're opening yourself up to giving away information and not allowing yourself to choose a potentially critical land to continue ramping up your sources. Impulse obviously does this better, although you go down four deep instead of five (which may or may not be beneficial).

[obituary 95]

quick question why do you play toils of night and day when mana short exists? is it just storm fodder or what?

[Infinitium]

It untaps Candelabra and / or Islands for starters. I was going to write a lengthy response but then again I'm also going to sleep. Maybe later. Short answer is that the presence of Time Spiral does necessitate changes to support it better and it doesn't compare well with Spring Tide (and Solidarity less so).

[Infinitium]

So, after some further pondering I decided to scrap the halfassedness of Toils and simply rip not only a page but the entire fricking book out of Permanent Waves and just go for Mind over Matter as the last untap effect. Since it generates absurd amounts of mana with Candelabra this also makes Stroke that much less prone to fizzling which makes it the win condition of choice. It also doubles as a CA engine with SDT since a single top can cycle all the dead cards on hand (and 2 tops can cycle through your entire library given a modest mana investment).

Top is necessary in my opinion since it not only fixes your draws but also acts as a guaranteed cantrip post-spiral, which makes it far less likely to fizzle and also gives you an edge in FoW-wars (10 cards vs 7 cards is a huge deal here). The Wishboard never really struck me as necessary (since most of the time I'm really only looking for additional Tides or Spirals) and really does eat up space that can be used to shore up bad matchups instead (ie Storm Combo, Ichorid and anything running more than 8 counters postside). The only peeve I currently have with it is flat out losing to Chalice@1 preside. Peer through Depts digs deeperthan Impulse when looking for additional Spirals which is all there really is to it. I only need 3 lands to go off consistently so I'd rather just dig for the essentials (the information is in my opinion less important here since playing Impulse is already a dead giveaway for Tide combo).

Current List; still not set on the SB or the exact numbe rof untappers:

Lands
8 Fetches
10 Island

Combo
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Turnabout
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Mind over Matter
1 Stroke of Genius

Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Peer Through Depts
3 Sensei's Diving Top

Tutors
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition

Protection
4 Force of Wil

Sideboard
2 Tundra
2 Orim's Chant
2 Silence
2 Rebuild
3 Wipe Away
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre

EDIT: Random thought - replace MoM with maindecked Rebuild. It resets candelabras, draws cards with top and deals with chalice and assorted random. It even replaces itself when dead. Neat.

[Masamune]

MTG Salvation forum had a guy mention using Emrakul as the primary kill card and 1 brain freeze in the tutorable SB. Solid idea considering Emrakul can't be countered and you can save your FoW for other things.

But BF still copies a lot and counters is useless when storm count is 18+
However, it is good against mindbreak traps

[ScatmanX]

But BF still copies a lot and counters is useless when storm count is 18+
However, it is good against mindbreak traps
Neither Emrakul or Brain Freeze are good against Mindbreak Trap, since it REMOVES all copys of a certain spell from the stack.

[Gocho]

For the time when he cast trap targetting BF or Emreakul you will have 3-4 FOW in hand.
Belive me, he must cast Mindbreak Trap early, trying to counter your kill spells is useless.

[Sturtzilla]

Hey All,

I am new to this thread but have been following it. I have been testing the list below with decent success. The deck basically goes off turn four every game. With two different means of winning it has proven versatile against many match ups. I would like to get any advice if possible from others running similar strategies.

Land 18
14 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures 2
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells 40
2 Pact of Negation
4 Retraced Image
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
1 Stroke of Genius

Sideboard 15
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Snap
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle

Just a few thoughts: I have included Emrakul as he seems to be a better win condition than brain freeze. I have consistently been able to hard cast him on turn four after a time spiral or two. It is actually pretty fun to go crazy and draw a ton of your deck, make a bunch of mana, then do it all over again. Not to mention the look on your opponent's face when you hard cast an emrakul on turn four. I have also included a stroke of genius in the main. It makes sense to me to have it in the main not just the wishable side. I am not sure of this yet. I haven't tested it enough to know.

Overall this list has worked pretty well for me. I would really like to hear what other spiral tide players are thinking.

[ScatmanX]

@Sturtzilla: Pact of Negation don't go well with Emrakul imo...

Also, how is Retraced Image doing for people playing it?
I already play G for Xantid Swarm, but would really like to know how many times does it is useless without the cantrip, or without another land in your hand.

And how is the Merfolk MU going for you guys? Even with Xantid MD, it is going pretty ruff for me...

[Infinitium]

I dropped it pretty quickly. Sure it can enable some T2 kills, but that requires you find Tide, Spiral, Untap and preferrably Force with only one cantrip, in a hand naturally having 3 lands (including 2 islands in the opener) in the top 8. Midcombo it's win-more since (in my pretty limited testing; go exam) the deck can generate enough mana off 3 lands just fine. The fact that it doesn't play ball with Fetchlands (and by extension top and brainstorm) doesn't exactly make it better either in my eyes.

@Sturtsilla: You realize that you run a grand total of 5 win conditions there? The Emrakuls looks unnecessary between Stroke and Wish.

[Sturtzilla]

I do realize that I am running 5 win conditions in the deck. This could be the wrong way to go but it has proven to be pretty good in the lines of versatility. With the build I am testing you can cherry pick the right win con for the specific match up. I am kinda on the fence about Emrakul. He is, in my opinion, bordering on the line of "risk of cool things." If he hits play in the deck, you get to swing with him. With the speed that the deck can go off, basically means you put your opponent on a 2 turn clock and their board position, if any, is devastated before they will really get to do anything about it. However the counter argument would be: "How is hard casting Emrakul worth it, when you can Stroke them for the game?" I have tested a few versions of the deck so far and my response would be the above list has been working fairly well. I might try the deck without Emrakul, as it would open 2 slots which could become another Cunning Wish and another Pact of Negation. Maybe 2 Emrakul would be more of a match up call. Possibly a sideboard option for games 2-3. Thoughts on that?

[dorsch]

I have no ideas in which matchups or board situations it's safer to win via emrakul than stroke or brain freeze. Maybe someone can explain this to me.

The disadvantages of emrakul are: not tutorable, not pitching to force and worst of all: you can't use meditate or pact.

[Sturtzilla]

In match ups such as Sneak and Show that get Emrakul into play, Brain Freeze can be a poor option because then you have to sideboard in something to deal with him as he hits the graveyard. In this case it is best to hit a Stroke of Genius and wipe them clean with it. This route circumvents having to tutor out Ravenous Trap or other graveyard hate. This logic also goes for any deck in games 2 and 3 that would have access to Wheel of Sun and Moon. Many decks use this sideboard tech for, it is my understanding, Brain Freeze, Dredge, Reanimator, and Lands.

Brain Freeze can be a bit faster to win with than Stroke of Genius if the opponent isn't running Emrakul or other effects that shuffle the graveyard back into the library. So as you would probably imagine it is generally the best bet for sealing the deal against most decks.

Some have suggested using Emrakul as a finisher because he can get around the Brain Freeze shortcoming of graveyard recycling. Although this can also be circumvented by just using Stroke of Genius. In all reality Emrakul is adds little to the deck overall other than shock value. Efficiency is likely lost. He does give some amount of flexibility to the deck, although with Stroke it is probably unnecessary. In my honest opinion, he is the new big guy on the block and everyone is just trying to break him. It is a Timmy, Power Gamer thing. I will admit as a combo player there still is something satisfying about landing a beast like him. Yet I would, after some more review, probably say he is a sideboard option for transformation if that is a route folks want to go.

Thoughts?

[Infinitium]

If you're hellbent on playing Emrakul you might as well play it as a 1-of with the Mind over Matter/Temple Bell combo. Mind over matter is in itself a pretty spectacular card since it can cycle through your deck with SDT's (finding Bell in the process), and Temple Bell isn't an entirely horrible T3 play since it draws you 2 cards without giving your opponent time to use them (unless your opponent plays a lot of instant disruption but meh). Mind over Matter also shares a tutor with Time Spiral in Ethereal Usher which is some interesting food for thought.

Also, I recently started to run Echoing Truth in the rebuild slot and haven't regretted it yet. It's cheaper and more versatile, and since it rarely lacks targets the lack of cycle is neglible, and it still tricks out multiple SDT's/Candelabras just fine. I currently have a stable turn 3 goldfish btw.

[egosum]

First successful results with Spiral Tide:

Barcelona 08/01/11
45 Players

Made Top 4 (going perfect in the 6 swiss rounds) with the following list, losing to a heavy aggro Quest of the holy relic deck with multi canonist and torn of amethyst, also have to say that made some heavy misplays and a mistake in the sideboard choice, before the tournament Iwas wondering wether I have to add the echouing truth or not, finally not playing it cost me the tournament. If I have more time I'll make a report.

"Spiral Tide"

Main deck 60

4x Force of Will
3x Pact of Negation

4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish

3x Retraced image
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

4x High Tide

1x Brain freeze

4x Time Spiral
3x Turnabout
1x Meditate

14x Island
4x Polluted Delta
//may be any other blue fetch but all 4 the same

Sideboard 15

1x Brain freeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
2x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Rebuild
2x Snap
1x Mindbreak Trap
4x Spell Pierce

After tournament thoughts:

-Retraced image is gold.
-3x Pact of Neegation are enough, but less is unacceptable.
-Should add Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's recall to the side (hurkul is more expeditive but echoing more flexible), maybe instead of Snap or the 4th Spell Pierce.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[jjjoness']

I did a few quick goldfishruns with this list and it did amazingly well. It's much faster than I expected it to be, and Retraced Image really speeds the deck up a lot. I'm definitely going to test this baby, seems there is a lot of potential there. Amazing list and congrats on the good finish.

[ddt15]

Nice! What did you play against? Why maindeck Freeze with 3 Wishes?

Btw I'm thinking more and more that Pact is one of the worst cards in the deck. I run 2 Misdirections and only 1 Pact.

[egosum]

thanks jjjones, the deck is getting better with testing and I' m very happy with this main deck.

I played 6 swiss rounds:

1st - UBG Landstill 2-0
2nd- BW Training Rebel Counter-top 2-1
3rd- Aggro Loam 2-0
4th Goblins 2-0
5th- Canadian Threshold 2-0
6th- Quest of the Holy Relic 2-1

Top 8- Aggro Loam 2-1
Top 4 Quest of the Holy Relic 1-2

About Misdi, I thought of it but card disadvantage is too bad, The PActs are really gold, they are the key to succeed agains tempo decks (they along with Turnabout), in fact in my match against the 3hold deckI sided ZERO cards.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. I' ve won some games with double Freeze, so I guess the maindeck freeze is more than correct.

[ScatmanX]

Congrats!

Do you remember in what turns did you comboed off?
Canadian wasan't a problem? (FoW+Daze+Pierce+Stifle...)

[egosum]

I can't remember the turns, but I remember that I had no speed problems (I have been outraced in 1 out of the 20 games during the tournament, and it was agasint counter top sicen I kept a defensive hand in order to keep the CB away from the table).

Canadian wasn't a problem at all, a correctly placed turnabout along with the maindeck countermagic seals the deal pretty easily against tempo decks.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ummon]

Hey guys. I know I'm a little late to post this (I've been taking a vacation from magic), but what do you think of the name The Tempest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tempest) for the UG version of this deck? It is the name I was planning to use when I tested +3 Explore -3 Snap several months ago. I had concluded that without Frantic Search, it was impossible to generate enough mana and card draw, so dropped the idea, waiting for Frantic Search to get unbanned. I didn't expect Time Spiral to get unbanned lol.

As for card advice, have you guys looked into Xantid Swarm for the SB when using a green splash?

[Gocho]

Ummon, please read the entire thread. The deck keeps mono-u because you can use Retraced Image rather than Explore.

[ummon]

Ummon, please read the entire thread. The deck keeps mono-u because you can use Retraced Image rather than Explore.

/slaphead. How the hell had we Spring Tide players missed that? That combos so well with Cloud of Faeries too!

[Gocho]

I know, I can't understand how nobody find it before.

[ScatmanX]

Does anyone knows when the list from SCG Kansas is going up?
And how did it do?
Last time I checked, it was 4-0...

[egosum]

I'm not sure but for what the reprots say I wonder he did 5-2-0, not cutting into the top 8.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[SpikeyMikey]

He beat me in round 5 but then kinda scrubbed it after that. He ended up 6-2 out of T8 at 13th or so.

[1maarten1]

He beat me in round 5 but then kinda scrubbed it after that. He ended up 6-2 out of T8 at 13th or so.

Yeah he went 6-2 and didnt make T8. I found this in Morbid's report:

round 7) Jacob Baugh playing Spiral Tide, Loss-Loss

Game 1: I mull to 5, and since I’m already nervous about the match, I draw 6 and the judge ruling puts me to 4 cards. I apologize to Jacob, assure him that I'm not up to any shenanigans, and open with t1 Nacatl, t2 Lavamancer, and that’s all she wrote. He plays Candelabra of Tawnos on his opening turn, followed by t2 cantrip, t3 go off.

Sideboarding: +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Knight of the Reliquary, +1 Bojuka Bog, +2 Choke, +1 Swords to Plowshares (he is playing Cloud of Faeries and Snap), -2 Sylvan Library, -4 Grim Lavamancer, -4 Tarmogoyf, -2 Path to Exile

Game 2: I board in a lot, mainly because I don’t have anything really gamebreaking against him. I keep my opening hand, in fear of mulling into oblivion. I actually get him to 10 life before he goes off, this time without needing Time Spirals, and setting up a kill of Brain Freeze for lethal + Cunning Wish into Ravenous Trap in case I had anything. Ugh. Another t3 kill.

To bad he didnt make t8, eventhough his list is a bit different ofcourse since he plays Candelabra.

[death]

round 7) Jacob Baugh playing Spiral Tide

SCG listed Jacob's as Spring Tide basically due to CoFs and Snap, he played 4 TS and a Candelabra however which sorta makes it confusing.

Since there are 3 other existing threads pertaining to the same Storm archetype:
1> Solidarity - Reset/FoI
2> Spring Tide - Cloud of Faeries
3> Permanent Waves - Candelabra

maybe there's a way to finally organize all these and keep the discussion simple. Like merging them back into Spring Tide. Any suggestions?

[ScatmanX]

He only had 1 Candelabra from what I heard from his interview...
Awating decklist...

Edit: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36125

[Ben]

About the Candelabra for the deck metioned above.. I know that having 4 is a bit over kill but I think if increase the amount to 2 would be better.
Any thoughts?

[death]

I've been testing 3 in my list. Wouldn't go for 4 as drawing multiples early suck (aside from not being able to pitch for Force), however it gets better after spiraling. Ima stick with 3.

[ScatmanX]

About the Candelabra for the deck metioned above.. I know that having 4 is a bit over kill but I think if increase the amount to 2 would be better.
Any thoughts?
The guy from SGC said he only had 1, but would play more.
If I had Candelabra, I'd play 1 Capsize as wish target.
Capsize + 2 High Tide + Candelabra + 4 lands = absurdly large amount of mana...

[Infinitium]

Capsize is an interesting piece of tech alright as it generates infinite mana with 3 lands + 3 Tides + Candelabra (or 4 lands and 2 tides as you mentioned) and can the proceed to draw infinite cards with SDT, reducing variance to nil when comboing off. Have to try that piece of tech in my no-wish build.

[death]

@Infinitum, no love for C. Wish still? I find it the best tutor in the deck as it can pull you out of tight spots. When you find yourself without any option after spiraling, C. Wish suddenly can turn into a Meditate or a Stroke netting extra cards, or Turnabout which then lets me hardcast Emrakul. C. Wish also doubles as a win-con nabbing freeze, it's also a utility finding sb tech like Ravenous Trap (against Emrakul/Blessing decks), Mindbreak T. and especially Wipe Away. I wouldn't leave home without my 3 Wishes.

here's my list for starters,
Faerie-less Waves @TheSource, Take 1

4 High Tide - namesake
14 Islands/4 Scalding Tarn
Tutor: 4 Merchant Scroll/3 Cunning Wish -=kill
Protection: 4 FoW/3 Pact of Negation
Cantrips: 4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/3 Preordain/2 Meditate/1 Stroke of Genius -=kill
Untappers: 4 Time Spiral/3 Turnabout/3 Candelabra of Tawnos
Secondary kill: Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

SB: Meditate, Stroke, Turnabout, Brain Freeze, Hurkyl's Recall, (+10 meta slots)

Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish are just insane, they let you grab instants inside and outside your library. How cool is that? I've played with Reset builds awhile back and was bored to death with it, this deck seems more fun. Not a tier 1, but absolute fun!

[Infinitium]

No love for wish still. I find it extremely slow, especially in the early game when I want to use the mana to sculpt my hand using cantrips and merchant scroll, and midcombo it's quite redundant since capsize, stroke and turnabout (the 3 spots I've given to it in testing) already generate mana and card advantage (and a universal hate solver in capsize). The deck already runs a full set of Scroll as well as Intuition for its tutoring needs, adding 3 more just gets awkward.

There's also the fact that it takes away pretty much the entire sideboard, slots that can be used to shore up the decks worse matchups such as Dredge and stuff with a lot of conditional counters (or artifact disruption) to keep us off high tide backed by a fast clock.

[death]

Intuition is nice and all but has a drawback in that it works only on 4-ofs. I don't mind running it alongside Wish, in fact I'm thinking of replacing Meditate with it. In testing, I still can't count the number of times C.Wish was able to pull that much needed Stroke/Turnabout/Hurkyl's or countermagic from the side.

[Scordata]

Intuition is a total bomb in this deck.
After resolving Time Spiral the cards you put in the graveyard with Intuition just get shuffled back into the library.
I'm against cunning wish as well. I've got a list I'm working on, sans cloud of faries, I'll post it up later tonight.

[Scordata]

As promised:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
10 [OD] Island (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
1 [UL] Palinchron

// Spells
2 [US] Rewind
2 [M11] Preordain
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [HL] Merchant Scroll
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [US] Stroke of Genius
3 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
3 [US] Time Spiral
3 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [GP] Repeal
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

A few observations:
Sometimes Rewind is the nuts, other times I wish it was a Fact or Fiction, or something...
Also, I dare you to try and lose to Merfolk with this. Goblins on the other hand can be rough if they have an aggressive draw i.e. Lackey into SGC.
It is for this reason that I'm contemplating Maindeck bounce in the form of Chain of Vapor.

What this deck needs is a Force Spike that cantrips. Disrupt wont cut the mustard.

[kingtk3]

Capsize is an interesting piece of tech alright as it generates infinite mana with 3 lands + 3 Tides + Candelabra (or 4 lands and 2 tides as you mentioned) and can the proceed to draw infinite cards with SDT, reducing variance to nil when comboing off. Have to try that piece of tech in my no-wish build.

IMO Palinchron serves this purpose better, since with the same lands/tides you only need one card to generate infinite mana/spell_count.

Cheers.

[Scordata]

@kingtk3:
Thats why I run it. I've been tinkering with cutting a Stroke for a Scroll Rack. Its doing ok.

[Grollub]

Not running the full 4 Spiral/Turnabout in an Intuition list, just seems so wrong.

[Infinitium]

IMO Palinchron serves this purpose better, since with the same lands/tides you only need one card to generate infinite mana/spell_count.

Cheers.

Palinchron doesn't draw cards or bounce permanents, and having infinite storm is pretty damn novel when my list doesn't run brain freeze to begin with.

Also ditto on not running the full 4 Time Spirals. Rewind looks like a good canditate to cut (the fact that it cannot protect your mana producers should be a cue that the card simply isn't good).

[Scordata]

Well, Grollub, lets look at why I'm doing this:
Time Spiral itself is an untap effect, so more than 3 Turnabouts are unneeded redundancy. With my list, if you've made all your land drops, you should be able to win on turn 4 with counter backup. Intuition is used to actually thin the deck by three cards, and while its useful for finding you the first Time Spiral, after that, you really want it to get a Stroke or a cantrip so you can find the Palinchron. I would usually go with a Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain Intuition post-spiral just to filter into things like meditate and what not.
Remember that Merchant Scroll and Intuition can be used as shuffle effects as well, and for this reason you will want to use your Brainstorms before hand.

Against an opponent one line of play looked like this:
Sculpted my hand till turn 4, with 4 islands in play.
High Tide > Turnabout > Time Spiral.
Opponent FOW's, I Pact back.
Spiral nets me 2 more high tides, which I cast off floating mana.
Chain cantrips, Intuitions, and untaps to I have 33U floating.
Stroke myself for 26 and without passing priority cast Pact on stroke then Rewind on Pact.
Opponent Fow's rewind, I Fow back.
Untap my lands, Draw 26 cards, Infinite mana with Palinchron, Win.

You really shouldn't have to cast Time Spiral more than once after casting a High Tide or two.

[ScatmanX]

Chain cantrips, Intuitions, and untaps to I have 33U floating...
Stroke myself for 26...
If you have 33U floating, and a Stroke in your hand, with Fow, you shouldn't lose anyway....

[Infinitium]

Frankly winning with High Tide off 4 lands is easy no matter what engine you use. This discussion really should aim for the turn 3 goldfish which is just leagues better vs the half of the format that doesn't run force (turn 4 on the draw is half a turn too slow vs aggressive strategies usually, force or not).

List btw. I'm still testing the optimal Impulse/Peer ratio and trying out different sideboard configurations (white for chants, defense grid and so forth) but kinda like the green splash for Krosan Grip and Swarm. Between Force, Top, eot Turnabouts to tap out my opponent (nullifying everything not force) and the sideboard I currently have a pretty comfortable time slowrolling blue decks and still have a pretty consistent turn 3 win (depending on whether can cantrip into Spiral or not). Having a lot of untap effects really adds to consistency in my opinion as it frees up your cantrips for business and lands, which is important since you only have 3 mana in all with which to find everything when aiming for the early win.

10 Island
8 Fetches

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depts

4 Force of Will
1 Capsize
1 Stroke of Genius

Sideboard
2 Tropical Island
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Rebuild
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt

[kingofvestal]

What about using Cloudstone Curio with Cloud of Faeries/Palinchron?

[Serpico]

The following list did recently result in a spanish tournement:

MAINDECK

Lands
----------
14 Island
4 Polluted delta

Cantrips
----------
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

Counters
----------
4 Force of will
3 Pact of negation

Tutors
----------
4 Merchant scroll
3 Cunning wish

Untaps & Drawings
----------
4 Time spiral
3 Tournabout
1 Meditate

Others
----------
4 High tide
3 Retraced image
1 Brain Freeze

SIDEBOARD
4 Spell pierce
2 Snap
2 Wipe away
1 Brain freeze
1 Meditate
1 Mindbreak trap
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter pact
1 Tourabout
1 Stroke of genius

Is a strange list but I think quite performant because of the 7 counters with cost 0, even if I've not tested it yet . The logic seem to stock as much as possible mana to play more times Time spiral that untaps lands and permit us to draw. The need of many mana explain the presence of onlt Tournabout and not Cloud of faeries and Snap and the consistent draw that Spiral guarantees explain the only 1 Meditate. This list is radical in the use of cantrips to maximize the probability to find High tide and Spiral. I understand the use of Retraced image to put more island on the board and is good in early game, to start before, and in comboing, to enjoy other drown lands. i think this card can be also replaced by Sapphire medallion.
What do you think about?

[egosum]

Well this is my list, and I posted in the former page of the thread (and is the evolution of the list I posted in the first page). If you read the whole thread you will have for sure most of the answers to questions about specific cards if any, but still if you have anything that you need to clarify just feel free to ask.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. btw the 1 of in the others section should be Brain freeze.

[mrjumbo03]

I'm assuming that the 4 spell pierces in the SB are there for the matches where your opponent has counters as well which means they will be having islands as well, which will then be affected by your high tides, which allows them to pay for spell pierce in counter wars... isn't dispel better in this case?

[egosum]

Not Really. Spell Pierce is the natural substitute for Pact of Negation in the matches that, the latter, is not good. I side Spell Pierces against:

-Counterbalance decks
-Decks that may play Torn of amethyst/Chalice of the void/trinisphere, I mean non-creature permanent hate cards.
-Decks that pack hand disruption.

In none of those situations dipel is even useful

The deck works fine against dekcs with counterspells, so dispel is most of times a win more card, only being very relevant in mirror matchs (which are not that usual...).

I may also side them against really slow decks with Coutnermagic, such as Landstill, since iin those matches Retraced image are not that good, in fact they may be very irrelevant, so adding pierces may help while starting the combo or even protecting from an early Jace (though is not such a problem in normal situations...).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

-Counterbalance decks
Against that deck, what are your side out plan?
I figure you bring in 4 Spell Pierces, and 1 Wipe Away (and leave the other on the board).

Also, when do you bring in Snap? In place of what?

I'm liking my MD so much now, I'm really having trouble to bring these cards in g2/g3...

[egosum]

This was my sideboard plan during the Tournament last Saturday:


1st - UBG Landstill - Antoni Sànchez

-3x Retraced Image
-1x High Tide

+4x Spell Pierce

2nd- BW Training Rebel Counter-top - Eloïm Cutillas

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x Retraced Image
-1x Can't remember (but I guess it was Ponder)

+4x Spell Pierce
+1x Wipe Away

3rd- Aggro Loam - Didac Moreno

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x Retraced Image

+2x Spell Pierce
+1x Wipe Away
+1x Snap

(When I realised he didn't play white, so no Teeg nor Canonist, I sided the fourth Spell Pierce instead of the Snap)

4th Goblins - Wette

-1x Retraced Image

+1x Wipe Away

(He told me that his side was composed by 5x REB, so I prefered to keep the Pacts in, if I wouldn't know then my side would have been -3 Pact of Negation for 1x Wipe Away and 2x Spell Pierce)

5th- Canadian Threshold - Víctor Ballarín

I sided nothing. THe main performs very well against Canadian.

6th- Quest of the Holy Relic - Oscar Messegué

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x High Tide

+3x Spell Pierce
+1x Snap

Top 8- Aggro Loam - Didac Moreno

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x Retraced Image

+3x Spell Pierce
+1x Wipe Away

Top 4 Quest of the Holy Relic - Oscar Messegué

-3x Pact of Negation

+2x Spell Pierce
+1x Snap

Hope this helps.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ddt15]

Intuition is definetly a must if you play Spirals/Turnabouts as your only untap effect. Its the only card that can tutor for Spiral.

[ummon]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Established Decks?

[death]

Intuition is definetly a must if you play Spirals/Turnabouts as your only untap effect. Its the only card that can tutor for Spiral.

Been tweaking and tuning for a week now. I'm currently testing Intuition, completely replaced Meditates. Scroll>Intuition>Spiral is a lifesaver if you already have the Tides and islands. I'm pushing for a straightforward Stroke kill in order to sidestep Stifle and Emrakul triggers. Meditate leans toward the freeze kill so I dropped it in my main although I'm still capable of doing Stroke+freeze when I feel like it.

4 High Tide/4 Scalding Tarn/14 Island
4 Merchant Scroll/3 Cunning Wish/1 Intuition
4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/3 Preordain/1 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral/4 Turnabout/3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

SB: Toils of Night and Day, Meditate, Stroke, Brainfreeze, Rewind (or Dispel), 2 Wipe Aways, Hurkyl's, Rebuild, Echoing Truth, Snap, 2 Ravenous Trap, 2 Mindbreak Trap (or Spell Pierce/Divert)

Remember, you heard it first here on TheSource.

[death]

Forgot 7 cards:
4 Force of Will/3 Pact of Negation

[egosum]

Afer thinking a lot about it I see 2 big problems of replacing Meditate qith intuition: You need more mana to play what you get (if the idea is to play TS that means a lot of mana). But the main problem that I see is that intuition gets worse as you keep playing Time Spirals while Meditate remains as good. Some other issues are that meditate can save you from a hard mulligan against not very fast decks, while intuition won't (at least at low cost).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

Yeah! 1st champ with the deck, and it was awesome.
Ended 4-1

4 High Tide/6 Fetch/11 Island
4 Merchant Scroll/2 Cunning Wish/1 Intuition (MVP)
4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/4 Preordain/1 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral/3 Turnabout/1 Candelabra of Tawnos / 3 Cloud of Faeries / 1 Retrace Image (didn't like it at all... will became the 4th Faeries)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 FoW/ 3 Pact of Negation.

SB: 1 off: Stroke; Snap; Slaughter Pact; Pact of Negation; Meditate; Brain Freeze; Rebuild; Dispel; Echoing Truth.
2 Wipe Away; 4 Spell Pierce.
(I'll defnetely take out Pact from SB for a Turnabout...)

1st Match: BG "rock" a.k.a. Adrianne.
Game 1: He leads with Seize, and I FoW, knowing that he only has 3 Seize as discards, but runs Extirpate.
Some turns later, I Play High Tide, Turnabout and Time Spiral, and he Extirpates High Tide. It didn't mattered, and I stroked him.

Game 2: He leads with Seize, taking High Tide. I preordain into Spell Pierce, but he gets Challice @1. Next turn he Hymns me, and the Hymn again.
I only needed 1 more land to do Turnabout + Spiral, but he took the Spiral with the 2nd Hymn. Then while I drew only 1cc cards, he attempted to Challice for 3, But I Intuition for FoW, and counter it. Didn't mattered, since I never got Wish, and he beat me down. When I tryied to combo of trough that, I was 1 mana short to untap my things.

Game 3: Was easy I guess. I Pierced something, and went off T4 or 5, with 2 High Tides and Spiral.

1-0

2nd Match: Goblins
Game 1: I start with land,he with lackey. I drop land, he hits me, getting SGC. I drop Land, he hits me, and gets a Chieftain. I eot Intuition for Timespiral, and went off. Emrakul killed him.

Game 2, I FoW his 1st turn Lackey, but he has other next turn. capable of going for a T5 kill. I dig to kill him on my T4, protected. I Cast High Tide, he Pyroblasts it. Another high Tide from my side, with Candelabra helping out, let me got Time Spiral, and win protected. I had to Wish for Snap, to get me exactly 15 mana to cast Emrakul.

2-0

3rd Match: TES
Game 1: I don't know what he's playing, but I have a T3 Time Spiral. He opens with Duress. I FoW. Play land and pass. He duress again. I Brainstorm, hiding Time Spiral and High Tide. I drop land, and Preordain. He goes of with AdN...

Game 2: Don't really remember, but lasts forever. I Pierce his Duress, while he does not do many things. I try to go off, but fizzle, getting only a Preordain, and getting no business. Fortunately, I had also 3 Spell Piereces and a FoW and Turnabout, that bought me enough turns to find High Tide, Spiral, and get him with Emrakul.

Game 3: Was pretty long too.I had 2 FoW I guess, and empy my hand, but he could not go off to,while wasted some Petals with Chant and Brainstorm. At turn 6 I guess, I had 3 cards left, so when he passed the turn, I eot Turnabouted my lands, and got 5 new cards. One or two turns later I was able to go off protected.

3-0

4th Match: W Stax.
Game 1:I keep a solid hand, with 2 FoW, Wish, 2 Lands, a Preordain, and something Blue. He leads with Tomb + Challice @1. I FoW, and Preordain. He cast Crucible. I play land. He play Trinisphere, and I let it resolve. I play land, and he plays Smockestack. I Wish for Rebuild. He plays nothing, and I Rebuild. He plays Trini, and I Fow. He plays Armageddon, and I Pact, and pay 5 in my upkeep. 2 Turns later, I find a Brainstorm, that gets me the kill.

Game 2: I mull, and find no hate. He starts with Defense Grid, Then Challice @1, then @2, and starts hitting me. I Intuition for Bounce, but he gives me a Wipe Away. I find only 5 lands, having Tide, Spiral, Turnabout and Wipe Away in hand, and draw only bad things. (1 more land I could have gone: Wipe Away, @Challice @1, High Tide, Turnabout and Time Spiral...) I only Turnabout and Time Spiral, but find 6 1cc cards, and 1 Emrakul... gg.

Game 3: I mull, into no Pierce / FoW. He starts with Grid, and resolves. I Scroll for FoW, and then Wish for Rebuild, while on 3 lands only, and he had Trini, Grid, Chalice @1, and 1 card in hand. It was an Armaggedon. I never get to draw 3 lands again, and Elspeth kills me.

3-1

5th Match: GW goodstuff.
Game 1: I combo for Stroke turn 4-5, with no need for protection. The 1st Spiral gets me only Preordain, CoF, Turnabout, Fow and Lands. Preordain finds me nothing, but I cycle Cloud of Faeries ang get an Intuition.

Game 2: I get a hand with Scroll, Wish, lands and cantrips. He mulls after hate, but don't find any. I go off for Stroke T5, protected against any hate.

4-1
4th place.

I was very pleased with the deck. Even the match I lost, Stax, seemed like a good one, having I only drawn 1 more land game 2, or 1 Pierce/FoW game 3, I'd have won both...
Also, it's awesome when you start comboing, and people finally find out what you'r playing.
Will be piloting it more times for sure.

[AnwarA101]

I've been testing 3 in my list. Wouldn't go for 4 as drawing multiples early suck (aside from not being able to pitch for Force), however it gets better after spiraling. Ima stick with 3.

I still don't understand why people are not running 4 of this card. I have settled on 4 as the right number awhile ago. When mana is tight I definitely want to draw this card over any over any untap options. It also works wonders with Mind over Matter, which many people may not be running but I think it gets better with Time Spiral not worse.

[ddt15]

Afer thinking a lot about it I see 2 big problems of replacing Meditate qith intuition: You need more mana to play what you get (if the idea is to play TS that means a lot of mana). But the main problem that I see is that intuition gets worse as you keep playing Time Spirals while Meditate remains as good. Some other issues are that meditate can save you from a hard mulligan against not very fast decks, while intuition won't (at least at low cost).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Well tbh I replaced a 3rd Wish for Intuition, though I rarely cast the maindeck Meditate. It just seems... well most of the time, I don't wanna draw four cards, I just want one specific card. Running a single copy just gives you another path to your combo pieces. I have had no problems running two Wishes. I now run snap over intuition though.

I rarely Spiral more than twice anyway, after that its just scroll->turnabout, loads of mana and cunning wish->stroke of genius on myself for 10-15-ish, then its easy to work up to 19 storm and brain freeze with four counters and wish backup.

I'm also inclined to run Fearies over Retraced Image, Image is great, can get you some crazy openings but is too reliant on land to be really good in the early game, I find myself cantripping for lands alot early in the game, with a uselesss Image in hand. Obviously not running Image lets you run more fetchlands, which is always great with brainstorm. On top of that Fearie lets you accelerate into Spiral with only 3 lands and a high tide, Image can't do that or you need to have played it in the turns before. Once going off the mana they generate is comparable as well. I run spring tide's 4 fearies+1 md snap like the deck on scg, the ability to go off without needing Spiral at all is also important. In control matcups, you side out the spring tide package for spell pierce's and some other card, then you basically play ego's list.

Last but not least; I'm quite fond of Misdirection over Pact, sure the card disadvantage hurts abit, but being able to redirect Orim's Chant, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy etc (the list goes on) is vital. These are some of the strongest cards against this deck, and misdirecting them has won me quite a few games where pact would've been totally useless. Could be I'm just fond of them because there is so much storm combo around here, and this is exactly where they can really shine. Eat my redirected Chant, ANT! I'll go off without a hitch now.

My current list:

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
4 Cloud of Fearies
1 Snap

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Meditate

1 Brain Freeze

6 Fetch
12 Island

[death]

hi Anwar, welcome to the thread. Ima try to explain myself, Candelabra is great when you have it in your opening 7 no doubt. It is fine playing it in early turns while using the excess mana to cantrip for pieces (or land) or protect spells from daze. I prefer this line of play than drawing double Candelabras early and not being able to cast a second copy because I can't protect my spells from daze or I have to cantrip for combo pieces, aside from it not being able to pitch for Force of Will. In testing, it didn't matter whether Candelabra resolved or not. But once I am able to spiral away (thanks to Turnabout), drawing extra Candelabras gets better because of the already insane mana available. However, I don't find it as efficient as Turnabouts which only require 4 to untap all lands. With Candelabra you need :1: to cast it and extra :1: for any land beyond 4, costing :5: to untap 4 lands, aside from the fact it is also non-tutorable. I have 11 untappers in my list (4 TS/4 TA/3CoT) which I believe is optimum. Mind Over Matter is powerful but too costly at 6, and needs to be compensated by Candelabras for it be more efficient than Turnabouts. It is also non-tutorable and that is why I see Mind Over Matter as deadweight in the deck without draw effects. Cunning Wish on the other hand, is there to fetch Toils of Night and Day in my sb and untap an Island+Candelabra, jyst in case I don't draw Turnabout or Scroll post spiral. I guess that's mainly it.

@ddt15, MisD looks fine in your list, but not in lists that play Emrakul where Pacts can protect him as long as they `Tide on upkeep.

btw, congrats to Scatman X and egosum for the finish. Thank you for making heads spin and prove that Tide can be competitive. Good luck to all aspiring to do the same and I wish you get more of those 'Uh-ohs..:eek:'

[AnwarA101]

hi Anwar, welcome to the thread. Ima try to explain myself, Candelabra is great when you have it in your opening 7 no doubt. It is fine playing it in early turns while using the excess mana to cantrip for pieces (or land) or protect spells from daze. I prefer this line of play than drawing double Candelabras early and not being able to cast a second copy because I can't protect my spells from daze or I have to cantrip for combo pieces, aside from it not being able to pitch for Force of Will. In testing, it didn't matter whether Candelabra resolved or not. But once I am able to spiral away (thanks to Turnabout), drawing extra Candelabras gets better because of the already insane mana available. However, I don't find it as efficient as Turnabouts which only require 4 to untap all lands. With Candelabra you need :1: to cast it and extra :1: for any land beyond 4, costing :5: to untap 4 lands, aside from the fact it is also non-tutorable. I have 11 untappers in my list (4 TS/4 TA/3CoT) which I believe is optimum. Mind Over Matter is powerful but too costly at 6, and needs to be compensated by Candelabras for it be more efficient than Turnabouts. It is also non-tutorable and that is why I see Mind Over Matter as deadweight in the deck without draw effects. Cunning Wish on the other hand, is there to fetch Toils of Night and Day in my sb and untap an Island+Candelabra, jyst in case I don't draw Turnabout or Scroll post spiral. I guess that's mainly it.



I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. I always opt to play cantrips in early turns over playing a Candelabra so there should be no tension there at all. My current list is playing 10 cantrips and 4 Merchant Scrolls all of which are a priority in the early turns of a game. Also I'm not sure what you mean by protecting your spells from Daze. My general approach is to play spells into Daze every turn except the turn that I'm trying to go off. I think you are underrating MoM in the deck as a 2 of it rarely finds itself in your opening hand, but drawn in the mid-stream go-off it can simply win the game on the spot.

[death]

To oversimplify, playing with 4 increases the chance of opening with multiples. Against blue decks, my approach is to save the mana to pay for `catcher or Daze to protect my cantrips/tutors and find land, combo pieces, or protection which is more important than landing a second Candelabra that doesn't improve the outcome of the game (and doesn't pitch to Force). As I've said I have 4 Turnabouts/3 Candelabras/3 Cunning Wish, not counting the 3 Spirals left post spiral, drawing any of these already wins games without the need for Mind Over Matter.

[AnwarA101]

To oversimplify, playing with 4 increases the chance of opening with multiples. Against blue decks, my approach is to save the mana to pay for `catcher or Daze to protect my cantrips/tutors and find land, combo pieces, or protection which is more important than landing a second Candelabra that doesn't improve the outcome of the game (and doesn't pitch to Force). As I've said I have 4 Turnabouts/3 Candelabras/3 Cunning Wish, not counting the 3 Spirals left post spiral, drawing any of these already wins games without the need for Mind Over Matter.

In general unless I'm playing against an aggro deck, I'll try to avoid playing a Candelabra because I'm not sure if my opponent has any way to remove it. Drawing a second Candelabra isn't much different than drawing a second Turnabout, both untap your lands. Its true that Turnabout pitches to Force of Will, but with 30+ cards that are blue I'm sure its okay to run a non-blue untap effect without worrying that it doesn't pitch to Force of Will. Drawing two Turnabouts in your opening isn't much better, but you are playing 4 of them. Playing 4 Turnabouts seems fine to me, but I prefer to be able to wish for Turnabout. Is it just possible that you could just change your configuration to 3 Turnabout main, 1 sideboard, and 4 Candelabra in the main. That would give you the same untap spells but give you access to Turnabout via Cunning Wish. I don't see the drawback to that configuration.

[death]

Turnabout>Candelabra. Extra Turnabouts can fog an attack or 'sink' all opponent's mana pre-combo. Having extra blue cards like double cantrips/tutor/protection/spiral/wish/tide is better than double Candelabras, especially against discard. I have a 5th Turnabout in my sideboard in the form of Toils of Night and Day which can untap an Island+Candelabra, and also there is Snap.

[AnwarA101]

Turnabout>Candelabra. Extra Turnabouts can fog an attack or 'sink' all opponent's mana pre-combo. Having extra blue cards like double cantrips/tutor/protection/spiral/wish/tide is better than double Candelabras, especially against discard. I have a 5th Turnabout in my sideboard in the form of Toils of Night and Day which can untap an Island+Candelabra, and also there is Snap.

The primary purpose of both Candelabra and Turnabout is to untap lands. While its true that Turnabout has some other uses, its primary function is to untap your lands. Candelabra can cost less than Turnabout, ie you can untap 2 lands for 3 mana and it can ramp up and down sometimes costing more than a Turnabout and sometimes less. I think you'll want to Wish for Turnabout more than you'll ever want to Wish for Toils of Night and Day, which without Candelabra only untaps two lands for 3 mana (and is less likely to untap a Candelabra in your build). I think you are considering some of the other uses of Turnabout to justify its inclusion over the 4th Candelabra, but its primary function makes the 4th Candelabra invaluable and gives your sideboard more power by actually having another Turnabout there as well. I'm only belaboring the point because I think this is the correct configuration for the deck with Candelabras.

[kingtk3]

I have a question about the side: how does it perform without Blue Elemental Blasts?
I assume that against ReB the decks is at disasvantage since it's an hard counter at R against everything in the deck. Shouldn't the side contains some BeB?

I play 2 Cunning Wish, 1 Intuition and 4 Merchant Scroll MD and, at the moment, this is the side:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Pact of Negation
1 Brain Freeze (0 MD)
1 Stroke of Genius (1 another in MD)
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's recall
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce

I have the feeling that it lacks something, but I really can't figure out the right configuration, mostly because I haven't tested much and I don't know exactly what kills this deck (I suppose BeB and CotV are some good hate).

Can you help me optimize my SB? The meta I'll be playing contains many Big Zoo, Rock, some merfolk and Countertop bant, plus many other archetypes, although in little numbers.

Thank you in advance.

[ScatmanX]

I have a question about the side: how does it perform without Blue Elemental Blasts?
I assume that against ReB the decks is at disasvantage since it's an hard counter at R against everything in the deck. Shouldn't the side contains some BeB?
No need.
Dispel seems to be better than BeB in too many matchups.
Also, people usually save ReB for the combo turn, so Pact of Negation is very good too.

[egosum]

More successful results. Congrats to the Yannick!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5503&iddeck=39850

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[mrjumbo03]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114377&d=1295500059

New toy for this deck...deserves maindeck space i think...

[ScatmanX]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114377&d=1295500059

New toy for this deck...deserves maindeck space i think...
Certainly is going in place of the MD Stroke of Genius, and the SB one too...
Not that much of a improvement though.
For Solidarity, it is certainly WAY better though...

[egosum]

I must disagree, I think is greater improvement in Spiral tide than Solidarity, since with SPiral Tide you can recurr it with merchant scroll once you have used it once, while in solidarity seems just like an Stroke of Genius that shuffles back into the deck but after resolving... so it makes no real difference I guess.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

I must disagree, I think is greater improvement in Spiral tide than Solidarity, since with SPiral Tide you can recurr it with merchant scroll once you have used it once, while in solidarity seems just like an Stroke of Genius that shuffles back into the deck but after resolving... so it makes no real difference I guess.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Usually, when you have to Stroke yourself in solidarity, you have a hardtime winning at the spot when there's lethal on the table. With it gong back to your library, you'll be able to find the Blue Zenith after drawing 12ish cards, and finish your opponent with it.
In Spiral Tide, I never had the need to Stroke myself more than once in a turn. Usually, If I do it once, I'll have more than enough fuel to Emrakul or Freeze them to death. If I use it pre-combo, to re-fuel my hand, when I Time Spiral, it'll go back to my library, so I didn't actually lost the card.

[death]

BSZ will simply let people rely less on Cunning Wish and more on Scroll, making them run less Wish copies which in my opinion is a bad idea as the deck loses its flexibility. BSZ as a Wish target is also bad because now you are always going to have 2 "draw x's" in the library diluting your draws of what should be tutors or mana enablers.

Aside from the nostalgic art and catchy card name, I'm not replacing Stroke with this card. Call me foolish but I think the shuffling effect is irrelevant because once I am able to stroke for a bunch of tutors and untappers, I'm going to win with or without a second Stroke main. Besides, Time Spiral can shuffle it back anytime if it's the last straw.

[egosum]

If you play a draw X in main deck (which I m not) , then use Stroke as Wish target. Otherwise BSZ is better as wish target in Spiral Tide builds, though I have to admit that are very close and most times you won't appreciate the difference.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[bob2008]

Hello guys,


I am testing this deck for a while now and it had been great against most other deck. The high

amount of cantrips lets you recover even against heavy discard decks like Gate/Rock, which is

important in my current metagame. Decks that “only” run Forces and some other counters have not

been such an issue but I had serious trouble against CB/Top in testing. I was thinking

about a specific SBcard to stop CB... (in addition to Spell Pierce)

What do you think about -> Annul : Counter target artefact or enchantment spell ?

Even though it is a very narrow card it might help to strengthen our(IMO)weakest MU

What are your experiences about the best way to fight CB?

Best regards,

bob

[.nemesis]

What are your experiences about the best way to fight CB?


Response to Counterbalance:
Scoop it up, go get some food.

More serious ideas though:
- run a 1-of Wipe Away maindeck
- splash G for Krosan Grip
- win before CB becomes active
- run more Remand maindeck

Annul is bad. It's only good against CBtop and underrepresented matchups like Stax or Enchantress (the latter one being a bye anyway). Spell Pierce accomplishes almost the same, without being dead against Hymn To Tourach or Sinkhole, cards that are particularly great against High Tide.

[ScatmanX]

Against CB we should have 4 FoW, 4 Spell Pierce, and 2 Wipe Away (1mb, 1 sb, in games 2 and 3).
That *Should* be enough.

Anyway, if CB and top hits, do as follow:
Gather 6 or more islands.
Cast as many Turnabouts (4cc) as you can, and cast Time Spiral (6cc)
Hope to draw something useful, and that their Top sux now, since he shuffled.

Also, with 8 Islands into play, 2 Turnabouts give you an Emrakul...

[death]

@bob, If you have Cunning Wishes it is doable. That is why there are 2 Wipe Aways (1 maindeck, 1 in the side). You can always scroll for a Wipe Away, and as Scatman said, wait until you have 6 lands, if EOT Cunning Wish goes through so will Wipe Away. By that time you should also have drawn your own countermagic to power through your opponent when you combo off.

I would board in at least 3 Spell Pierces + 1 Wipe Away. Nevermind Annul it's just a waste of sideboard slot.

[death]

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8549/sb2k11.jpg
-=Spiral Blue 2k11=-

^My final take on the deck. Added 1 maindeck Impulse instead of 4th Turnabout. It can grab anything including lands unlike Peer Through Depths. Impulse has been errata'd so you don't get to shuffle anymore, amazing with Ponders and Preordain as you dig really deep. I don't play Meditates maindeck because it stops my Time Walk + Obliterate. I simply like casting Emrakul and skip going through the motions of a storm win to save time, but this deck is capable of 20+ storm. Also, a Stroke can just sidestep enemy Stifles or Trickbinds. Brainfreeze doesn't in addition to being a dead draw. 3 Cunning Wish/Stroke/Emrakul are enough for you to survive a Sadistic Sacrament.

Sideboard:
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain freeze
2 Wipe Aways
1 Hurkyl's Recall / 1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth / 1 Snap
3 Spell Pierce
1 Dispel
1 Divert

ho͝oˈrä!

[bob2008]

Alright guys - thanks a lot for the feedback...

MD Wipe Away added! I realy like the idea of replacing the MD Brain Freese with more usefull cards.

If it does not work I will have to try the "Scoop it up, go get some food"-strategy ... ;-)

@death: your deck looks nice

[igri_is_a_bk]

Usually, when you have to Stroke yourself in solidarity....

Sorry, I'm not going to contribute to this thread, but just quote this instead....

[death]

I have nothing against Solidarity, in fact it's considered a bad matchup. But to those unfamiliar with how Time Spiral can usually win



a. generate 15+ mana, cast Emrakul take an extra turn, annihilate (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Annihilator) board on turn 4.
b. generate 15+ mana, Stroke yourself, then Wish—Stroke opponent's library for 60+.
c. generate 30+ mana, Stroke yourself, find Emrakul and annihilate (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Annihilator) with Force backup.
d. chain cantrips, Scroll� Tide/Turnabout/Intuition/Wish—Brainfreeze + Stroke backup.


Once an opponent allows you that 4th land drop, things get pretty scary. Not the fastest combo, but very consistent, resilient, and efficient.

[ScatmanX]

Just want to say that, while playtesting, I did a T2 kill with this deck, using Stroke.
Damn, it was nice...
(without Retrace Image)

[mrjumbo03]

So what's the consensus regarding having emrakul MD? I personally think it's win more, and I'm more open to just having a stroke effect MD for the win...

[Infinitium]

Just want to say that, while playtesting, I did a T2 kill with this deck, using Stroke.
Damn, it was nice...
(without Retrace Image)

Um.. how? Cloud of Fairies? Also, Emrakul is very much win more imo, especially with maindeck bounce effects (remember you get to recur them with Spiral, and Capsize/Candelabra gives infinite bounce which is useful should you somehow fizzle midcombo).

[ScatmanX]

So what's the consensus regarding having emrakul MD? I personally think it's win more, and I'm more open to just having a stroke effect MD for the win...
I really like him.
Generating 15 mana is way easier than 50+.
Also,things like 4 lands, 2 High Tide, Turnabout, Emrakul happen quite a lot.


Um.. how? Cloud of Fairies? Also, Emrakul is very much win more imo, especially with maindeck bounce effects (remember you get to recur them with Spiral, and Capsize/Candelabra gives infinite bounce which is useful should you somehow fizzle midcombo).
Now, I was was lucky as hell, but it happened.
T1 - Candelabra
T2 - High Tide + CoF + High Tide + Candelabra untap Lands + Time Spiral.
my ney seven had 2 more High Tides, a Turnabout, and some cantrips, so it went from there.
Again, I'll never expect this to happen on a tournament. I was just testing with a friend playing TES. (I went 4-1 preboard...)

@Meditate:
Do you guys think this card is needed on the SB?
I cut it from the MD already, and am probably going to do that with the SB one too.
This deck don't need it like Spring Tide or Solidarity. We already have 4 Draw7 MD, along with Stroke and Wish. Is it really necessary?
I mean, we really just need 2 cards to combo off (Tide + Spiral), so discard has never been a big issue too...

[rufus]

Um.. how? Cloud of Fairies?

A while ago, I was trying to optimize the possibility of going off T2 with a deck like this. In order to make it happen T2, you'd need 2 untap effects and 2 high tide effects, 2 lands, and the time spiral.

High Tide, Cof/T1 Candelabra, High Tide, Cof/Candelabra, Time Spiral.

...If you're willing to play Underground Sea, Bubbling Muck is a possible supplement for High Tide. If you commit to T2, Toils of Night and Day is a reasonable secondary untap effect, and Diminishing Returns can stand in for Time Spiral.

Even if you Brainstorm or Portent on turn 1, the chance to find 2 of 8 cards in the top 10 is about 1/4.

[ddt15]

@Meditate:
Do you guys think this card is needed on the SB?
I cut it from the MD already, and am probably going to do that with the SB one too.
This deck don't need it like Spring Tide or Solidarity. We already have 4 Draw7 MD, along with Stroke and Wish. Is it really necessary?
I mean, we really just need 2 cards to combo off (Tide + Spiral), so discard has never been a big issue too...
I think it's not needed in the SB but i would definetly keep one main deck. It is quite important as it allows you to go off without using Time Spiral at all. I don't sideboard it because Stroke is always better as a wish target.

I wonder how many of you are playing:
- Candelabra / Retraced Image / Springtide package?

Personally i prefer the Springtide package (4 Fearies, 1 Snap, 1 Meditate MD).

[ScatmanX]

I wonder how many of you are playing:
- Candelabra / Retraced Image / Springtide package?

Personally i prefer the Springtide package (4 Fearies, 1 Snap, 1 Meditate MD).
Your Snap is a Candelabra for me, and 0 Meditate.
Also, 3 Turnabouts too.

Another thing I was wondering is: If I get a hold in another Candelabra, what to cut for it?
And if I have to sell the one I have (borrowed), what to put in its place?
Turnabout for both questions?

[death]

If you playtested long enough you wouldn't leave home without these 4 cards in your sideboard


Turnabout
Stroke of Genius
Meditate
Brainfreeze

Imagine with 3 Cunning Wishes in the maindeck and 1 Turnabout in the sideboard it's like having 6 copies of Turnabout main. (Make that 10 with Merchant Scroll). I wouldn't touch the Meditate in the sideboard. There will be times you'll be needing those extra 4 cards but don't have the mana to stroke yourself.

Regarding Candelabra versus Cloud of Faeries, isn't it obvious yet which one is more busted than the other? If not for the scarcity that makes it prohibitive, there will be no questions about it. This archetype has recently put 6 different players in the top 8. Only 2 decks ran less than 3 Turnabouts. All of them have exactly 3 Cunning Wish. This is the configuration I have been suggesting;

4 Time Spiral / 3 Turnabout / 3 Cunning Wish => core
3-5 more in either form (3-4 Candelabra/Cloud of Faeries or 1-2 Snap)

And finding at least 1 of those shouldn't be a problem with so many Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Intuition, Meditate, Stroke of Genius, Blue Sun's Zenith, Peer Through Depths, Ideas Unbound, Trade Routes, Sensei's Divining Top, Serum Visions, Opt, Portent, Lat-Nam's Legacy, and Arcane Denial you can run.

CoF/Snap gets hit by Spell Snare, Snap also by StP on target creature. While Candelabra with Pridemage, Grip? Needle post board? As long as they are not devoting resources to get my life down to 0 fast, I'd be happy.

[mrjumbo03]

how is the 1-of intuition doing? is it really needed? sorry for the questions but i'm planning to build this deck next as i think it will be on its way to being established... Also, is 3 pacts the right number? don't you think it's too much considering unlike fows, pacts can only be used on the turn you win?

[ScatmanX]

how is the 1-of intuition doing? is it really needed? sorry for the questions but i'm planning to build this deck next as i think it will be on its way to being established... Also, is 3 pacts the right number? don't you think it's too much considering unlike fows, pacts can only be used on the turn you win?
The 1off Intuition was the best card in the deck for me last time I played.

Regarding Pact, I guess it's up to you. I like them against Folk, but not so much against other things. It's just that is really hard to beat Merfolk without them imo.
If you feel comfortable using 6 protection spells only (+4 tutors + 2/3 Wishes + Intuition), than that should be fine.

[death]

http://crystal-cdn.crystalcommerce.com/photo/file/461/521189/large/treasure%20hunt%20plyaer%20rewards.JPG

O Hay Guys, Look what I found!

[kingtk3]

I've been pondering to use 2 Treasure Hunt in place of 2 Impulse. Right now i'm testing the impulse, but what are your thought/experiences/feelings about treasure hunt?

As reference, I'm trying a build without Candelabra since they're not pitching to FoW and the price is high, with 3 Turnabout, 2 wish, 1 intuition, 4 merchant scroll, 4 CoF Main Deck and 1 Turnabout, 1 Snap in Sideboard.

[ScatmanX]

I really can't see Treasure Hunt being good in this deck. It's only ok after a Brainstorm, by turn 3, and by then you have better things to do.
Impulse looks a million times better, and even it didn't make the cut.

@Kingtk3: I think that amount of untappers can work. 1 less than I'll try next champ.(3 Turnabouts, 3 CoF, 1 Candelabra, 3 Wish, 1 Intuition, 4 Scroll(

[kingtk3]

I have to say that I have the feeling Treasure hunt wouldn't make the cut too: the card came to my attention because i was running 'into too many lands when digging through the deck with cantrips and Time Spiral, although I'm running 18 lands 6 of which are fetches.

Maybe I should try Mana Severance or Manipulate Fate? Or I'm just being unlucky?

More in general, how many of you are running out of gas because Time Spiral and/or the cantrips draw too many lands?

Best regards.

[ScatmanX]

More in general, how many of you are running out of gas because Time Spiral and/or the cantrips draw too many lands?

Best regards.
Cut a land. 17 is fine with 11-12 cantrips.

Only had that problem a couple of times, but even "fizzling", the deck could combo again on the next turn.

[bob2008]

Cut a land. 17 is fine with 11-12 cantrips.

Only had that problem a couple of times, but even "fizzling", the deck could combo again on the next turn.

I agree -> 17 lands are enough ....

[death]

In my effort to come up with the most optimum list, I needed to bite the bullet and replace the maindeck Stroke with Blue Sun's Zenith. Also, discarded the "coolness" factor of Dispel/Divert from the sideboard in favor of more game-changing Ravenous/Mindbreak Traps.

My list for reference from previous page:

Namesake: 4 High Tide (Amy Weber)

10 So broken-its-Restricted-in-Vintage Cantrips
4 Brainstorm (Restricted 2008)
3 Ponder (Restricted 2008)
3 Preordain

10 Previously Banned/Restricted Untappers
4 Time Spiral (Banned/Restricted 1999)
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos (Restricted 1994)

7 Combo/Solution/Meta Package Tutors
4 Merchant Scroll (Restricted 2008)
3 Cunning Wish

7 In case opponent tries-to-interact Counters
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation

death's (4) Added for flavor
1 Impulse (Errata'd 2004)
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

18 Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
14 Island

Sideboard

1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Aways
1 Echoing Truth / 1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall / 1 Rebuild
1 Mindbreak Trap / 1 Ravenous Trap

I am already comfortable with 14 + 4 fetch lands. Playing with 17 lands and extra fetch lands would hurt against Stifles. Just Saying..

SCG Indianapolis is on tomorrow.. Good luck to all Legacy Tide players!

[nodahero]

Does anyone have the list that Michael Bernat piolted at the Indy Open? I am really curious how he fit in Counter Spell...

[death]

He played 2-of Counterspell, Merchant Scroll, Cunning Wish. Then 4 of each cantrip, etc. and Explore. He ran 20 lands.

[mrjumbo03]

I think the Gsplash is not worth it...being wastelanded is such a huge blow to this deck...

Death, did you play in Indy?

Some of my thoughts on the deck after testing:

The one-of intuition is definitely a lifesaver as it's the only card that can get time spiral...

I also think retraced image is golden in this deck... sure sometimes it's dead, and you're gonna hate it... but being able to effectively hit more land drops per turn, specially during your post-spiral-going-off turn is great... plus at least it pitches to force if nothing else... and it's easy to side out in counter heavy matches...

I also think Emrakul + Blue Sun MD is better than Meditate + Brain Freeze...15 mana is so much easier to get than 20 storm, not to mention it dodges the occassional sneak and show decks...

I wish there was a blue instant card which could effectively tutor for Emrakul...

[1maarten1]

In my effort to come up with the most optimum list, I needed to bite the bullet and replace the maindeck Stroke with Blue Sun's Zenith. Also, discarded the "coolness" factor of Dispel/Divert from the sideboard in favor of more game-changing Ravenous/Mindbreak Traps.

My list for reference from previous page:

Namesake: 4 High Tide (Amy Weber)

10 So broken-its-Restricted-in-Vintage Cantrips
4 Brainstorm (Restricted 2008)
3 Ponder (Restricted 2008)
3 Preordain

10 Previously Banned/Restricted Untappers
4 Time Spiral (Banned/Restricted 1999)
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos (Restricted 1994)

7 Combo/Solution/Meta Package Tutors
4 Merchant Scroll (Restricted 2008)
3 Cunning Wish

7 In case opponent tries-to-interact Counters
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation

death's (4) Added for flavor
1 Impulse (Errata'd 2004)
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

18 Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
14 Island

Sideboard

1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Aways
1 Echoing Truth / 1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall / 1 Rebuild
1 Mindbreak Trap / 1 Ravenous Trap

I am already comfortable with 14 + 4 fetch lands. Playing with 17 lands and extra fetch lands would hurt against Stifles. Just Saying..

SCG Indianapolis is on tomorrow.. Good luck to all Legacy Tide players!

I really dig the list, but since I dont own them, is cloud of faeries a valid replacement for candelabras? Both can get hated on, but how much will it affect your chances on hitting a Stroke on your opponent thats lethal? Alot? Or not so much if you have Snap in the board?

[bob2008]

I really dig the list, but since I dont own them, is cloud of faeries a valid replacement for candelabras? Both can get hated on, but how much will it affect your chances on hitting a Stroke on your opponent thats lethal? Alot? Or not so much if you have Snap in the board?

My impression is that a lethal Stroke/Zenith happens quite often.
Since I just own one candelabra I run an additional Snap and 2CoF main.
I really like the Snap in the MD : scroll for Snap -> bouncing a CoF has helped me out very often.
The configuration has been working fine for me. But - yes - Spell Snare sucks...

regards,

bob

[mrjumbo03]

What's the worst out of the 3 1-mana cantrips?

Oh and what would be make the cut, the 12th 1-mana cantrip or the 3rd pact of negation?

And what are you're thoughts on having one intuition on the side for cunning wish into intuition into time spiral plays?

[mrjumbo03]

What's the worst out of the 3 1-mana cantrips?

Oh and what would be make the cut, the 12th 1-mana cantrip or the 3rd pact of negation?

And what are you're thoughts on having one intuition on the side for cunning wish into intuition into time spiral plays?

[Piceli89]

Today I was reading this topic because I'm thinking about selling my cards of Ritual-based Storm Combo to embrace Spiral Tide fully. After deep thought, there are three things that I actually like a lot about this deck when compared to what I was used to play til now:

-the rock solid manabase, which is nearly impossible to disrupt.
-the parallelism between ANT deck and this, given the unban of Spiral Tide. We can say that Dark Ritual: Ad Nauseam=High Tide (and lands) + Spiral Tide. You gather mana and cast a bomb that will arguably win you the game from there. Although Time Spiral goes under Pierce and REB effects, I really like the fact of not relying on life total. I came to the conclusion that modern ANT lists are pretty nerfed from the Mystical absence in the sense that, without a way to consistently cast Ad Nauseam in the first 2-3 turns (it still happens, obviously, but not on a regular basis and it's pretty much Infernal Tutor dependant), you're losing a lot of power and finding yourself with half your engines tuned down if the opponent applies a bit of disruption paired with a clock. Here's why Junk is quite a delicate matchup now, whereas it used to be pretty easy before: you get Seized and Hymned, and Knight of the Reliquary bites chunks of your life while you sit hoping to topdeck the (few) business spells you were stripped out of them. And you topdeck Chrome Mox obviously.-. Also, Extirpate on Infernal Tutor is really a bitch since it takes over all your non-"situational" bombs.
-The compact structure that leaves little or no space for cards that are bad on their own. I never managed to dig Chrome Moxes as they were a non-existent topdeck or opening with 6,5 cards.
-The presence of multiple bombs like Meditate, which, if resolved, will give you game against slow control alone. I always cast Meditate against blue decks in Doomsday and, when it does not get countered, I'm having the resources to go off double protected the turn after 90% of the times.
-The absence of LED somehow is a benefit. In ANT you aim to build a hand that is somehow structured into a costant pattern: Infernal Tutor, LED, Protection(s), Ritual effect. The point is that LED is a card that is as sheer-powered as devoted to an all-in approach that sometimes may backfire you over. What I like in Spiral Tide is that the "acceleration" is given by a single card (High Tide) that does not mean a "go for it and if you fail you've lost" approach against blue decks.
-The ability to answer random hate post-board with a strong tutorage core in the form of Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish (6-7 slots). ANT has little to no tutors as of now. You need to dig for a solution either with cantrips or terribad cards like Lim Dul's Vault, that goes against the aim of the deck. You can't quite answer a randomic Chalice of the Void from Merfolk (happens) or a Leyline of Sanctity from Dredge. You need to be consistent in finding the way to get off difficult situations, and you need to be fast.
- Being blue, you get reactive protection which is, in my opinion, superior to proactive disruption like Duress/Seize and blanking effects ala Silence/Chant. You get Spell Pierce which is a beast in answering what hurts Storm Combo: Force of Will, Counterbalance, Chalice/3Sphere and discard spells. CB particularly, since the metagame is going to shift back to its dominion and it's already happening.
Force of Will is also quite good, although it demands a profound knowledge of what to pitch.
-Generally, I like the flexibility of the deck to answer situation given its multi-purpose cards that are good. That's what ANT lacks now.
It seems you can switch easily from a controllish approach against control decks where you slowroll them by landdropping costantly, to the ability of stealing fast wins against aggro: Time Spiral allows for some t3 wins, is this true? I have never tested the deck til now but I'm pretty expert in analyzing average hands and the structure of a Storm Combo, and it seems it got a boost in speed from, say, regular Spring Tide versions.
-Turnabout is a beast against Countertop and Tempo decks, if not answered.
-A clear advantage in the other Combo matchups where, past turn 3 where you play control, you're going to the favourite.


There also some downsides, obviously:
-you rely on High Tide to win. I've seen lists here in Italy playing Sapphire Medallion which is very strong in giving #5-8 acceleration, but I dislike the thought of giving targets to Qasali Pridemage where it would normally be a dead card.
-you are suffering much more multiple-counter hands from Tempo decks than ANT does. A combination of Reb+Pierce+Snare from Tempo decks (Faeries aka Next Level Threshold) can give you serious problems.
-Your aggro matchup is slightly weakened, but I guess Time Spiral makes it possible to still leave those as very good (around 65-35).
-With all those Show and Tell decks pouring up lately, Freezing through multiple Emrakuls is pretty hard.
-High Tide is a must resolve (I guess) unless you're playing for the long term.
-You lose to Iona.

I ask you expert Spiral Tide developers (Egosum particularly) if I was wrong in some of those considerations, and if you have previously playedANT or TES, feel free to agree or disagree on some of the aforementioned points. I just want to go deeper into the deck before starting to test (and buy) it.
These is just theorical masturbation ofc, but I wanted to share.

[death]

What's the worst out of the 3 1-mana cantrips?

Oh and what would be make the cut, the 12th 1-mana cantrip or the 3rd pact of negation?

And what are you're thoughts on having one intuition on the side for cunning wish into intuition into time spiral plays?

Never cut a Brainstorm as it lets you draw 3 new cards. Ponder digs deeper than Preordain and it gets better with extra fetchlands to shuffle the chaff away. Pact is there for 'just in case your opponent has Force of Will' so it can be cut if there's not a lot of Force in your meta. With all 12 cantrips that dig for your combo, an Intuition on the side is not needed.

@Piceli, most of your analysis are acceptable. Storming against multiple Emrakuls is impossible that's why I don't advocate freeze-only kill. Another downside is that each Spiral twisters all opponent's FoWs back, something extra to handle that a Tendrils deck don't need to.

[perm]

I'd definitely consider predicts over treasure hunt. Works well with Brainstorm getting rid of chaff in hand, and digs deep like impulse but draws two.

[ScatmanX]

@Piceli89:
You got almost everything right.
The advantages I think this deck have is: Having a more flexible toolbox, easy to find available. Also, the 4 Spell Pierces, that are awesome.
SnT decks don't seem to be so hard. Your Brain Freeze may be the most common kill, but Stroking someone is usually easy past turn 3. Reusable High Tide makes things better. Also, if you open a hand with Emrakul, just keep that against them. And they're easy to cast too. 15 mana demands only a couple of high tides, some lands, and 2 untappers...

Another thing: the worst about this deck is the part where you get to Time Spiral against a deck with loads of counters and open mana, and you manage to draw 5 lands, a High Tide and something useless...
Funny thing is that sometimes this is an upside, since against something like Rock, you only need 2 cards to start comboing (High Tide and Time Spiral (sometimes not even High Tide is needed)). If you don't manage to pull it off, his Goyf will be 0/1, and the Knight of Relicary will be 2/2, so you just bought yourself more time to dig for something.

Oh, and I have an out to Iona: Preemptively search for Slaughter Pact with Wish. But who plays Iona anyway?

[ScatmanX]

Okay, another tournament report. This time, 5-1.

1st round: Goblins Rb (my build)
Game 1: I kill him on turn 4, after FoWing a turn 3 Warchief from him, that bought me enough time.
Game 2: I sideboarded wrong, and he drops drops Vial T1 and Chalice of the Void T2. I don't find a Wish in time, and lose.
Game 3: I boarded right, and Kill him on T4 or 5 with Emrakul. He still manages to cast Warren Weirdings, but I had a Spell Pierce for that.
1-0

2nd Round: Junk
Game 1: I keep a hand with 5 lands, Time Spiral and Merchant Scroll. He Seizes my Scroll T1, and cast some dudes. I draw nothing, but turn 4 I rip that High Tide of the top, and kill him after 2 Time Spirals and an Emrakul.
Game 2: I mull, and he goes T1 seize, T2 Hymn, T3 Vindicate (Pierce) while I had only 1 land, and the Duress and Seize... Still, last turn before dying, I was 1 card short from comboing.
Game 3: He disrupts my ass of, with 4 Duress effects, while I only had Brainstorm do protect myself. I manage to keep a hand with lots of lands, so I just need to buy something good. I didn't manage to save any of my 2 High Tides, and I was left only with a Turnabout, while he stripped everything else but lands from my hand. My turn 5 I pondered into land, High Tide and Time Spiral. I took the High Tide, knowing that I did not wanted to lose my Turnabout, neither my Time Spiral from the top. He duressed and took my High Tide. I draw Time Spiral, play my 6th land, cast Turnabout and Time Spiral, and get to draw into enough gas to go off. Fun times.
2-0

3rd Round: Merfolk
Game 1: I did not get my combo pieces in time.
Game 2: He has quite some pressure, so I try to take his counters away. Turn 3 I ponder, and see a possible kill turn 4 with Time Spiral, but sitll have something prepared for Turn 5 if he counters my things T4. So I untap, cast 1 off my High Tides only (Had another in my hand, and another on the top of my library). He Dazes, I pay, and I go for Time Spiral, he counters. Next turn I untap, with 4 lands, play High Tide, High Tide, Turnabout, Emrakul.
Nice.
Counterspell.
Game 3: He cast a T1 Vial, and try a T2 LoA, which I FoW. He does not have any pressure, so I got enough Time. He ended with a Coralhelm, a Sylvergill and a Mutavault, and I had to cast a Cloud of Faeries to block the Coralhelm and went to 1 life the turn before I could go off. 2 Turns earlier I had baited a daze with Cunning Wish, and a Cursecatcher with an Intuition. My last turn I go off with double Pact for protection, and my Spirals out-draw him, and I get to Brain Freeze him after 2 Time Spirals.
3-0

4th Round: Merfolk (UW)
Game 1: I go off turn 5 or 6 I guess. I start with High Tide. He Daze, I pay. He Dazes again, and I Pact (only 3 untapped lands now). He FoW's, I Pact. He lets it Resolve. I cast Time Spiral. He taps his 3 lands and cast FoW. I cast FoW, and go off.
Game 2: He has a turn 2 Canonist, which I did not had a chance to remove.
Game 3: I board in a Wipe Away. He gets his Canonist. I FoW, he FoW back (removing FoW). I Tutor for the Wipe Away, and try to find another land (stuck on 4), but draw Emrakul, Time Spiral and Wish the next turns... When he'd have lethal next turn, I Wipe his Canonist. I do not draw my land. I cast High Tide, and he Dazes. I had a Pact, Emrakul, 2 Time Spirals and a Wish. I look at him, and something tells me that he has a freaking FoW to. I pay for daze, and High Tide resolves. I Wish for Slaughter Pact, and pass. My next Turn, I rip a High Tide from the top, and try to Pact his canonist, but he did had that FoW... (which I could not Pact back because of Canonist).
3-1

5th Round: GW Nucks
He's on my team. We look at the standings, and we're both with 9 points, but I'm in 3rd, and he's in 7th or 8th. We decided it was best for him to concede (much because, we did some math, and the next opponent would probably be a TES, which I have a MUCH better game against).
4-1

6th Round: TES
Game 1: He wins the dice, and I keep a hand with no FoW, but 2 lands, 2 Brainstorms and a Ponder (and High Tide and Time Spiral).He Brainstorm T2. I Brainstorm and find FoW. Turn 4 (me with 3 lands in play)cast Chrome Mox (I let resolve) remove Ad Nauseam, and Duress me. I had 2x High Tide, 1 Time Spiral, 2x Cunning Wish, 1 FoW and Emrakul. I FoW removing a Wish. He cast Rite of Flame (and is left with a Gemstone open). Resolve. He cast LED. Resolve. He cast LED. I cast High Tide, Wish and Pierce. LED gets countered. He taps his Mine and cast Tutor, search for EtW and make a 1 turn clock token army. I have to win next turn.
Like a champ, I rip a land from the Top, cast High Tide, Time Spiral, and Stroke him, while having an Emrakul on my board.
Game 1: I mull, and keep a hand with counters. Turn 1 he Duress, and takes a FoW. Turn 3 I tutor for a Pierce. His turn he does some math, and cast a Ritual. I Dispel It. He was prepared for the Pierce, not that. He passes. I draw a Fow. I Pierce on something. Next turn I draw a tutor, and search for Intuition. He passes. I untap, and get a land (4th). His turn he plays LED, Ritual, Ritual and Tutor, discarding his hand and breaking LED (with enough mana for Spell Pierce). I FoW, and we're both left with no hands.
I draw land, then Zenith Then Time Spiral. I cast the Zenith, and next turn cast High Tide and Time Spiral. He had not drawn protection. I Freeze him to death (with my last Wish).
5-1

I ended in 2nd, with some store money.
The deck is still awesome, and rock solid. It's very useful that many people are caught by surprise when they see what I'm really playing.
Well, hope this deck continue to do well for everyone like it's doing for me.
(list is the same as last time, but SB with -1 Wipe Away, -1 Meditate, -1 Snap, +1 Turnabout, +1 Fact or Fiction, +1 Intuition (So I can find a High Tide with Wish too.))

[egosum]

Piceli89: I' m afraid you are right as ScatmanX said about most of your statments. The deck is über-stable, which is more than most of modern Storm build may say (modern UB ANT is just simply the worst one since, as you said, it was badly nerfed with MT ban, it actually has the problems of going off early and most important, without MT you don't have a ceaph stop condition once you are resolving ADN, so you have to wait either for IT +LED, which are 2 cards and it doesn't happen as often, or Tendrils which is a 4 cost card, this may make you die too many times even if you are high in life, 16-18). But it has only one real problem in front of the ritual based decks, and this is, IMHO, that you give lots of time so your opponent have 1-2 extra turns in order to cast permanent hate, and this could cost you some games, and your extra counterspells (spellpierce) don' t stop Gaddock nor Canonist, niether Meddling Mages. It is very important to have a well tuned Wish board, I ' m afraid this is even more important than the main board, what I mean is that you have some variants for mainboard all of them more or less resilient and strong but for the wish board there are some staples that cannot be replaced since each of them accomplish a very specialized job in a given situation. For me this is the optimal Wishboard, already post:

4x Spell Pierce (better than dispel only because they hit CB)
2x Wipe Away
1x Rebuild
1x Echoing Truth
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Slaughter Pact (this card may be Ravenous Trap if Ichorid is relevant in your area since will accomplisht the same effect, more or less, Stopping Iona. Sice seems that reanimator is making some kind of comeback I prefer to stick in the Pact)
1x Meditate
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun' s Zenith (replacing the Stroke, this is simply better while playing Scrolls because you can use one to refill and then the same for the kill)
1x Turnabout
1x Snap (some people dislike this slot, but Gaddock being a real problem and canonist being almost everywhere, at least in my area, this is a must have for second and third game, while is also strong in first game as a wish target)

Hope this helps just ask if something isn't or if you wanno comment anything else.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Rune]

What about Spell Snare instead of Pierce? Hits all the most played hate cards and doesn't become dead in the lategame vs U.deck

[egosum]

It does not hit Duress effects which is very relevant against combo match up, also nice against junk or eva green.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I thought this might be of interest here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21150_Eternal_On_The_Other_Side_Of_The_Ocean_ComboControl_Rising.html

[ScatmanX]

I thought this might be of interest here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21150_Eternal_On_The_Other_Side_Of_The_Ocean_ComboControl_Rising.html
Thanks.
Very nice read.

[BattlefieldMedic]

I thought this might be of interest here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21150_Eternal_On_The_Other_Side_Of_The_Ocean_ComboControl_Rising.html

Nice read. The article makes me want to make the deck. I think I will :wink:

[Piceli89]

How is Counterspell any effective given you're using 1 of your mana on turn1 and turn2 Pondering or Preordaining and you'd need to keep 2 open to counter that CB? How can you expect to get rid off CB on the draw with a 2cc Counterspell (given there's no Force) and a singleton Cunning Wish? It sounds pretty paradoxical to me to slow down the deck in order to beat the worst matchup if the deck isn't tuned enough well to get rid off the most scareful card if it comes down early.
I'd rather play 3 Spell Pierces maindeck. The Tide downside that lets them pay 2 more does not always come up, since they're arguably going to tap down for threats or for previous Cspells on the first Spiral. Also, you can go around this thing solidifying the counter suite with 2 Pact of Negations instead of 1 to save mana more often.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Happy you guys liked the article :)

@Piceli89: Counterspell vs CB: Sure, once in a while they'll stick the turn 2 Counterbalance while you're on the draw. Life's a bitch sometimes. Just go ahead and Scroll up your Wish to kill it, they shouldn't be having an active Top yet (no mana to use it before you Scroll and they most likely don't have a three next turn if they're not lucky). If you're either on the play, have a FoW while they don't or they don't have CB before turn three - one of the three is pretty likely to be true simply because you should win 50% of your die-rolls - it's your own fault if they resolve it while you have a Counterspell. Nobody forces you to cantrip on turn 2, so you're being an idiot (you the decks player, not you piceli, just to be clear) and tapping out of CS-mana to cantrip when you could just keep your defence up to make sure Balance doesn't come down. It's not like you have to win on turn three against CB.
Over all I'm pretty sure the pay 2 downside of Spell Pierce is going to come up a lot more often against Counterbalance than CB resolving turn two on the draw (if you're playing the matchup the way you should play it with NBS - as the control) because I usually have about six lands in play once I go off against them, meaning they do, too. Remember with NBS you're supposed to take the control-role against them, not try to play as combo because that's a losing position against CB as other combo-decks' success-rates show us. I'd still board in Pierces exactly because of CB coming down turn 2 but it's not the greatest later on (though you can use it to tap them out before actually countering to set up your combo-turn without blowing a Turnabout on their lands). I also happen to board out my Pact against them because it doesn't do anything I want it to do in this matchup as it can't counter their threats, only protect mine, so I definitely wouldn't want to run even more of them MD to help against CB.

[egosum]

Counterspell is ultra narrow for Spiral tide, in fact for a legacy combo deck (even cobmo control). If you really worry counterbalance, and nothing else, and want to be specific inthe ahte you pack just add 4 spell snare (along with your Fow) and 1-2 Wipe away must seal the deal, plus spell nare stops: ethersorn canonist, chalice of the void at 1, gaddock teeg, hymn to tourach, counterspell, and much more. nevertheless I feel more confortable with spell pierces just for being more fleixible and wining you more matches, like mirrors (i mean other combo decks, not only Spiral Tide, against other high tide decks is weaker than against Ritual Storm decks but still fine). Even remand will be a lot better than counterspell and more "sinergetic".

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Counterspell is not for Counterbalance alone, that was the example chosen by Piceli and I answered to that. Counterspell is simply the one card that can stop whatever it is that needs stopping and therefore, in my opinion, the right MD counter for a deck that wants to really play combo-control instead of trying to race control and other combo-decks. The SB is full of different counters meant to come in in the appropriate matchups, often even replacing the Counterspells once you know this isn't one of the matches where you want to play control.
As for the anti-CB suggestions, thanks but let me reiterate: Spell Snare into Wipe Away and Pacts is excellent if you want to do what you guys try to do - stop CB from hitting before turn 3 and kill them. That's what all the other combo-decks try to do, too, and fail miserably.
My plan is completely different. I aim to keep CB or other dangerous permanents from hitting indefinitely (or destroying it with Grip) while cantripping to make sure I always have countermagic. Only once I'm sure the opponent can't do anything useful any more do I cast Tide and Spiral, which I usually just happen to run into while digging for more defense. My kill-turn against CB is absurdly late, rarely ever before turn six (generally only if they invest too many cards going Goyf-beatdown to adequately defend themselves). Winning fast is what CB is good at stopping (at least the GerryT-style control lists) so that simply isn't my plan any more. Instead I leverage the better library-manipulation into a dominating control-position and win at my leisure.
I can see why you have trouble grasping that plan/accepting it works because no other combo(ish)-deck in Legacy could ever do this before Spiral came off the list while still winning turn 3 to 4 against aggro so you've probably never had the option of even trying out something similar. It's standard-issue in Vintage, though, and NBS's ability to play that way is why I consider this deck to be so much better as combo-control, not combo.

[egosum]

Well, if it works for you then nothing more to say. But, I'm not talking about theory, I've tested like a big bunch of different Spiral Tide lists: WIth emrakul, without him, with remand, with counterspells, with and without retraced image, with and without pacts, withs 0-1-2-3 cunning wish, mono blue, with green splash and white splash, brain freeze main deck and without,... I mean I' ve already played that kind of list and, according to my testing, While counterspell is fine against a long term game it really sucks against aggresive strategies, and even against CB decks when they played CB early, they do it more usualy than you may think I guess, they played it protected with daze/Fow or even both, so this means CS is weak agansti that, it may be excellent against landstill-kind decks, but seriously this is not something you must fear while playing turnabout, force of will and pact, also without pact, since the gama will be long, you will have many opportunities to make him waste his countermagic bluffing threats. I also play vintage and I know some vintage decks play the combo control in taht way (my actual list is an almost blue, packing force of will and drains), but in legacy is quite different, while the vintage enviroment is more a war of resources trying to pass your bomb cards, legacy is a war of bombs, this is basically for the nature of the decks of each enviroment, playing 1-of of the good cards is very different than playing 4-of, this makes leagacy pace a lot faster, in general terms, and this is why countermagic like Cs is no longer that good, but in very few dedicated decks.

Summing up, what i think is that you need (if trying to play a combo, or combo control deck) a fast and resilient main deck that can adapt with very specific hate in the sideboard, and counterspell is not fast nor specific, so don' t make the cut.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. by the way there is a deck very similar to vintage combo-control list in legacy, but is no longer a tier 1, and it' s called solidarity, I think it is the only deck that can work taht way in modern legacy for its "instant" nature, this gives it this half a turn it lacks to be lagacy-paced.

[Misplayer]

@Mon,
Great discussion and excellent job explaining your rationale without getting defensive.

In some limited testing against CounterTop, I'm curious about how it's possible to effectively control the board with essentially 4 Force of Will and 3 Counterspell to do so. Other strict control decks (e.g. Landstill) run a more robust counter suite but still rely on board control elements for spells that slip through. The glaring difference is straight control needs to maintain board control for multiple turns while it slowly grinds out a win - this is obviously not the case here as you stated in your article.

However, I've too often been in the situation where I'll be forced to fight an early counter war over Counterbalance, leaving me with no recourse when they drop a Goyf, Knight or Clique the next turn and put me on a 3-5 turn clock. If they follow that up with an additional threat on the following turn, the clock can easily be cut in half. In these situations I've been scrambling to sculpt a winning hand (i.e. find Time Spiral) having already spent 3+ cards keeping CB off the table, while my opponent is often using equally good card selection via Top to stock up on disruption.

Similarly, against pure Bant Aggro, they're usually going to drop threats turns 2-4 and back them up with countermagic. In these matchups, I feel like my best bet is to save countermagic for the combo turn and just treat it like a Zoo matchup where you need counter backup, but at that point I'm essentially playing straight combo again.

Then there's the whole issue of the crapshoot that is a resolved Time Spiral against blue decks.

Maybe I just need more practice?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@egosum: First, thanks for the excellent discussion. Having one's ideas questioned in a rational and logical manner is quite enjoyable. Now back to the discussion itself:

I'm not talking theory either in this case, the first three decks I tested this against MD are Zoo (fastest clock you're likely to see in the format), Fish (clock plus disruption) and CB-Top.
I'll go into the matchups next, but first let me say that Counterspell may suck against aggressive strategies, but so does PoN. Neither is really relevant in those matchups because you're essentially goldfishing (though Counterspell at least allows you to trade your second turn for theirs if you have a slow draw while PoN does straight nothing).

To the matchups (talking about the game 1 matchups, my post-SB testing is far from complete admittedly, so there I'd have to talk from theory drawing conclusions from how game 1 matches go):
Aggressive strategies (represented by poster-child Zoo): I still goldfish them most of the time without much trouble as long as they don't have the turn 3 kill curve, it has really been as simple as that.
Disruption plus clock (represented by Fish): I'm about 50:50 in testing game one right now, counting since I've added the singleton PoN (having it totally changes how the matchup plays out in my experience). In this matchup I suspect the multiple-Pact lists like those in this thread to do much better, at least if they run a similarly "high" landcount to what I have (making my first four to five landdrops without usually having to push good cards with my cantrips was instrumental in beating them for me), which is why I transform into that post-SB.

Coming to the focal point of our discussion, if you really tested a list similar to NBS against CB-Top and played it as a control-deck, the fact that your results didn't instantly keep you working on that list is really surprising to me, though maybe that's because I tested against the GerryT-list, which didn't have Dazes (those would be a pain for Counterspell because Daze allows them to resolve CB through it even when Tide is on the play). My approach is giving me a favorable first game matchup against that deck in testing so far, which I don't believe any other deck that kills aggro early enough to ignore them can claim, including the lists I've seen here so far. I'll try to do some testing against a list with Dazes soon, I'll report on how that changes the matchup afterward.

Non-CB control: I completely agree that Landstill is likely close to a bye for either version of the deck, which is why I didn't test that matchup so far (not to mention the deck is comparatively rare). If you are combo and can be favored against a Counterbalance list that runs nearly as many counters as Landstill does, the matchup against the latter should be quite good.


Summing up, what i think is that you need (if trying to play a combo, or combo control deck) a fast and resilient main deck that can adapt with very specific hate in the sideboard, and counterspell is not fast nor specific, so don' t make the cut.
I agree 100%. Note that you said "very specific hate in the sideboard". That's exactly why Counterspell is in the main - it's extremely flexible and gives you incredible resilence against threats that can be played before you're ready to go off through opposing disruption. It's also fast enough to come online before anything really bad (outside of 2-land, Chalice @ 1) can come down - the bad things I can think of are all two-drops, barring Duress/Seize and those alone aren't hard to survive - on the play and only gives them a one turn window on the draw (which I close by bringing in Spell Pierce post-SB).

Also, though somewhat off-topic, I completely disagree about Solidarity working like Vintage combo-control. It's control is FoW, Remand to stall for a turn and killing the opponent in response to doing something you can't beat. The regular control-elements obviously aren't enough to win a true control-fight because whatever you Remand is coming back next turn while FoW alone doesn't allow you to grind out the long game because you need to 2-1 yourself all the time and will end up short on cards to actually win (as the deck doesn't have something that ignores what you start off with like Time Spiral). That leaves killing the opponent in response to a threat, which is not the same as controling the game. It allows you to be more flexible than other combo-decks because you don't have to try and kill asap as long as the opponent doesn't present a threat. It still means your basic plan for beating the opponent is to be ready to go off once he can present a game-breaking threat. While Vintage-combo-control decks like Gifts can do that (though on their own turn as long as they aren't dead yet, say against something like Oath) that isn't what they plan on doing. They plan to fight the opponent's offense card for card while resolving their draw-spells and end the game in a single turn once the opponents resources are exhausted/obviously matched with countermagic. The only deck I've seen in Legacy so far that can follow this plan is NBS.

@Misplayer: Again speaking from experience against the GerryT list, not sure in how far the games differ against a more creature-heavy list. I'm usually happy to see them play creatures, though, that means there's less disruption to get rid off before I can take control for the single turn I need to kill them.
First, different from Landstill you generally don't need to control their creatures because their clock usually leaves you time enough to first take control of the real game - the battle for countermagic superiority - and then kill them (and if they really dare tap out on turn 3 to shorten the clock you might just win, which means they probably shouldn't be doing that). That means the only real threats the deck plays are the four Counterbalances, which is where you'll be battling for control.
A list like GerryTs has 2 Counterspell, 2 Spell Snare and 4 Force of Will, 2 Vendilion Clique and four CB to fight the battle for control and SDT plus Brainstorm to dig for them. You on the other hand have four FoW, three Counterspell and four Merchant Scroll->FoW/CS/Wish as your basic defensive-suite, the Cunning Wish as an additional counter (Dispel) or retroactive answer to their threat (CB) and the much faster search-engine of Brainstorm and seven cantrips to find more Countermagic. At first it looks like that means CB has two more relevant cards in this battle than you do, but from the games I have played, the higher velocity of the cantrip-engine usually allows you to keep ahead of CB-Top as far as disruption is concerned, especially as Clique often needs to take either High Tide or Spiral instead of Countermagic so that CB can avoid dieing when they try to punch through their threat and fail/should you decide to actually try to kill them.

As to Bant-Aggro I suspect that matchup plays out a lot more like the one against Fish where you have to try to get a back-uped kill before they race you (they don't have anything you actually need to defend against), so you're correct assuming that you should be playing this matchup as straight combo vs aggro-control. PoN are probably superior to CSpell here.

If you lose against blue-decks after resolving Spiral with regularity, you have to be one of the unluckiest people alive or you really just need more practice. The process you should go through is as follows: Figure out if you can just win by going for the Zenith-plan. If yes, use whatever Cantrips and Merchant Scrolls you have left over to grab more countermagic (preferably PoN, than CS or FoW depending on being light on mana or blue cards) and Zenith yourself for everything but six mana plus however much mana you need for Counterspells and Daze-backup. If you can't go for Zenith yet, start playing your cantrips and evaluate after each if you can now go for Zenith. If you can't try to find as much counterbackup as possible and another Spiral and try again. Oh yes, obviously always start of by casting any High Tides you have.

[Rune]

The more controlling approach is interesting, but I also think Spell Pierce/Snare would achieve this much better than Counterspell. Mostly because CS doesn't stop CB on the draw, and I often find CS to be painfully slow even when it's played in real control decks. I don't think it gets any better in a deck with 18-19 lands and a ton of sorcery cantrips/tutors.


@ego_sum:

Have you made any maindeck changes to your list that is on deckcheck? Retraced Image has been pretty good in my testing because it's sort of like Chrome Mox in ANT: it helps a lot to have it in your deck when you need to go off with a minimum of resources, and at the same time it can get you to your combo turn faster if it's in your opener (even though the card disadvantage is sometimes a beating). Still, do you think it's worth the slots? I'm thinking about cutting it for Pierce/Snare to get a much better postboard matchup vs Counterbalance (among other things). Spell Snare can also time walk the aggressive decks. However, I'm definitely not interested in drawing Snare vs Merfolk with this deck. I've found the Merfolk matchup to be pretty easy with your list. Part of that is probably because you can keep generating mana with Retraced Image after Time Spiraling, and so the new taxing counters they draw never become a problem.

[death]

Counterspell is competing against another spell in the 2cc slot, that is Merchant Scroll. Imho, counterspell will not fit in simply because of its cost. This deck doesn't really have the luxury of paying extra UU everytime pre- and post-spiral unless you succesfully cast twin High Tides which happens occasionally. This is where Pact of Negation shines being a free counterspell. This means you won't just fold to a Force or Daze because you don't have mana to counter. I wouldn't worry too much about CB or hate because the deck runs enough Scrolls and a Wish-board.

[egosum]

@Mon,Gob: got a p.m.

@Kikoo: My deck is the same as listed, but I ve been testing Intuition instead of Meditate, I' m afraid it didn't make the cut for some reasons but the most important is that meditate is hugepre-post board, while intuition post board is a bit narrower, also meditate is always useful when you draw it while Intuition has more requisits to be good. I tried to cut retraced image many times, seems most people suggested me to do so but every time I did it I decided to take it back, the mission of RI in this deck is very important, not only accelerating if needed, but the most important reason is that it allows you to go off early with scarce resources because you know that you'll be playing more lands so it will be easier not to fizzle, remember that with High Tide on line it is a mini ritual that can be re-used. I only changed the sideboard a little bit, but not significantly. Added 2nd snap for the 4th spell pierce, this is becaue snap is just a beast in post board matches, not only dealing with hate bears, but also giving extra time against aggro, while produces mana and storm if needed. And my choice of the 4th spell pierce to be cut is because in my original list I played 4 Pacts and 4 spell pierces so I can do a direct replacement against given matches, while this is not tre because I play only 3 pacts, I can play only 3 pierces. I know that this may hurt the CB Top match up but I still can handle it with this configuration. If you feel losing 4th spell pierce hurts you may also cut the mindbreak trap since is maybe the least used card in the board and spell pierce may help against storm combo aswell. Another mino change to the board I' ve done is changing Rebuild for hurkyl's recall, the reasoning behind that is speed, losing the ability to play it behind a Leyline (white one) may hurt but very few people play that nowadays, and there is even fewer people that play it along with releveant artifact hate cards.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

Another mino change to the board I' ve done is changing Rebuild for hurkyl's recall, the reasoning behind that is speed, losing the ability to play it behind a Leyline (white one) may hurt but very few people play that nowadays, and there is even fewer people that play it along with releveant artifact hate cards.
Don't forget Chalice of the Void @2.

[Rune]

@egosum

Ok, thanks. I've cut MBT since I'm almost 100% sure it's a card I will never have to wish for. I think I would rather have Dispel - it's good vs TES because it stops Chant from messing everything up, and it also has uses in other matchups. The Spell Pierces seem sufficient for the storm matchup, though. Rebuild was always awesome for me in the old ANT because most players will play Chalice@2 as their 2nd lock piece to block most of your bounce. If you only have H. Recall, you can, of course, still use Wipe Away EOT on the Chalice@2 and then play H. Recall to bounce the rest of the Chalices/Trinispheres, but this seems very unpractical. Then again, it's possible to argue that Lodestone Golem in Meandeck MUD will make you want H. Recall instead since Rebuild costing 4 is very bad. Not sure how popular that deck will be, but even if it can put you on a 4 turn clock instead of the usual 40 turn clock W Stax can manage, the matchup still seems very favorable.

[egosum]

Chalice at 2 won't be a real problem, since it cost 4, and by that time you will have enough resources to go off, or to deal with it via wipe away, it's also not very likely that a deck plays 2 chalices at you, decks that pack chalice normally pack very few card drawing (maybe loam is the exception if they play confidant, but loam is so damn slow that it is not real problem), and the first will for sure hit the CC 1 so it's not a real issue.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ScatmanX]

Chalice at 2 won't be a real problem, since it cost 4, and by that time you will have enough resources to go off, or to deal with it via wipe away, it's also not very likely that a deck plays 2 chalices at you, decks that pack chalice normally pack very few card drawing (maybe loam is the exception if they play confidant, but loam is so damn slow that it is not real problem), and the first will for sure hit the CC 1 so it's not a real issue.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Happened to me the 1st time I used this deck in a tournament.
I really can't see the downside of using Rebuild instead of Recall. 1 more mana is a good thing in this case.

[kingtk3]

Hi,
I'm running this build

4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 High Tide
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
1 Stroke of genius
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
4 Polluted Delta
2 scalding Tarn
11 island

Sideboard:

3 Spell pierce
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Dispel
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain freeze

Recently at a tournament of 24 people I've made top4 then conceided to a friend due to other engagement.
I only had one loss and one draw in the day against, respectively, CounterTop-Bant and CounterTopther. It seems that the deck is having an hard time agaist counterbalance or that I'm missing something.

My sideboard plan was
-3 Pact of Negation, -2 Cloud of Faeries, -2 Cunning Wish
+3 Spell pierce, +2 Dispel, +2 Wipe Away

I tried to build a board with 5+ lands and an hand with at least 2 counters in order to go off, but it didn't work well, escepcially against bant.

I accept any advice on sideboard strategies or deck configuration, given that the stroke in the main is going to change into a Blue Sun's Zenith.

I'm open to your criticism.

[mrjumbo03]

I don't think you need both hurkyll's and rebuild in the SB, i'd choose only one...

I've dropped the meditate on the side as well because I have never tutored for it...

As for the maindeck, only difference between our lists is that I run 3 retraced and 1 preordain instead of 4 cloud of fairies and 1 less pact which i have moved to the side for a land...

[kingtk3]

With affinity and MUD decks popping all around now I think that 2 spot in the SB for artifacts are viable.
As for the meditate, I never tutored for it once, plus it isn't synergic with Emrakul, so I agree with you in dropping it.

How do you manage your matches versus CounterTop?

[egosum]

You should not play emrakul, he is, as you said, not ynergic with meditae, which is huge, nor with pacts (specially if you have to multiple pact in a turn), also having freeze in main and side helps a lot while goldfishing so you can easily make a double freeze for the win.

Against CB-Top, your best cards are Trunabout, pierce, force of will, wipe away and brain freeze, do as many timing tricks as necessary if your opponent can resolve the balance, experience will teach you how.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[ddt15]

Played Tide in a tournament went 3-3:
Burn 1-2
Merfolk 0-2
Bant (no CB) 2-1
White weenie with maindeck Canonists 2-1
Bant CounterTop 2-1
High Tide mirror 0-2 - Emrakul :(

with this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Cloud of Fearies
1 Snap

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze

5 Fetch
13 Island

-sb-
4 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 BSZ
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap

[Zinch]

Played Tide in a tournament went 3-3:
Burn 1-2
Merfolk 0-2
Bant (no CB) 2-1
White weenie with maindeck Canonists 2-1
Bant CounterTop 2-1
High Tide mirror 0-2 - Emrakul :(

with this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
3 Cloud of Fearies
1 Snap

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze

5 Fetch
13 Island

-sb-
4 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 BSZ
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mindbreak Trap

Add a Blue Sun's Zenith to the deck. Is a house in this deck, a lot better than brain freeze actualy: you can use it to draw 10-25 cards easily and search it again with a drawn merchant scroll to kill your opponent

[Nicol Bolas]

My list for reference from previous page:

Namesake: 4 High Tide (Amy Weber)

10 So broken-its-Restricted-in-Vintage Cantrips
4 Brainstorm (Restricted 2008)
3 Ponder (Restricted 2008)
3 Preordain

10 Previously Banned/Restricted Untappers
4 Time Spiral (Banned/Restricted 1999)
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos (Restricted 1994)

7 Combo/Solution/Meta Package Tutors
4 Merchant Scroll (Restricted 2008)
3 Cunning Wish

7 In case opponent tries-to-interact Counters
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation

death's (4) Added for flavor
1 Impulse (Errata'd 2004)
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

18 Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
14 Island

Sideboard

1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Wipe Aways
1 Echoing Truth / 1 Snap
1 Hurkyl's Recall / 1 Rebuild
1 Mindbreak Trap / 1 Ravenous Trap

1) Is there a huge difference between having the single Impulse versus a 4th Ponder/Preordain? I haven't seen it played (aside from Chapin's mono-blue list)
2) If the deck is so good why hasn't it put up big numbers lately? And why would I play this over TurboDrazi which has been gaining popularity recently?

[ScatmanX]

2) If the deck is so good why hasn't it put up big numbers lately? And why would I play this over TurboDrazi which has been gaining popularity recently?
It's the TES factor: People don't play it. People that do play it lose to themselves. My record with this in tournaments is 9-2, losing to my mistakes.
And this deck does not need 4x Candelabra of Tawnos, so it is a liiiiiiitle easier to build than Turbodrazi...

[Zinch]

Lately, I've been playtesting this deck:

4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Preordain

3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

2 Cunning Wish
1 Snap


10 Fetchlands
1 Tropical Island
8 Island

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
3 Snap
3 Pact of Negation
3 Krosan Grip
4 Spell Pierce

And it's performing realy well. It's just crazy how many wins you can archieve with only 3 lands in play. It just crushes aggro and is favourable against non-counterbalance aggro-control (Merfolk with Spell PIerce main is hard, but New Horizons is not). And with Krosan Grip in the board CB is not unwinnable. With 10 fetches and the amount of cantrips and shuffling effects, I have to lose the first Tropical Island to a Wasteland yet in over 35 games.

[Shimi]

It's the TES factor: People don't play it. People that do play it lose to themselves.


We need to hard test this matchup so you could provide more information about it!!

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

The list looks really sweet, which I would obviously say considering it's like three cards different from my own ;) The one thing I'd really want to change is moving a single PoN to the maindeck, makes Merfolk a hell of a lot better in my experience.
Also, what kind of CB were you having trouble with? In my testing I've actually been a clear favorite against the GerryT-list (no Dazes, only six creatures) preboard already. Considering your list should be even better against them (two outs to resolved CB), I'd suspect you're approaching the matchup in the wrong way if you're not beating them preboard significantly more than you lose. This might be different against lists with a faster clock and Daze (Daze on Tide when you're on a clock is really annoying from my experience against Folk and should make it significantly harder to stop their CBs from coming down) - time constraints mean I haven't tested that matchup yet.

Also, the MD Intuition has been really important for me to find Spiral fast enough against aggro to not get run over. Didn't you have any consistency-problems without it?

Out of interest, did you start testing something like this before or after you saw my article?

As to my own version, I've cut the 10th Fetch for a Preordain lately, I was seeing a few too many lands post Spiral and I always want to have a Cantrip in my starting hand, makes finding things so much easier.

/edit: This was addressed to Zinch, obviously.

[Zinch]

@Mon,Goblin Thief:

I decided to build this deck after your article. It was inspiring, a good read!. I was a former Solidarity player, but it was long ago since I played it because I think it's not competitive actualy.

I didn't 'test the CB Mu extensively. I played about 10 preboard games from wich I won 4 I think, so is not that bad (and this was before switching the intuition for one more wish in the main). Also, was one of the first games I played with this deck, so maybe I make more mistakes than normal.

I didn't playtested any MU with SB yet, because first I want to be sure about my maindeck.

A PoN in the main is something I want to include, but I'm unsure on wich card to remove. Maybe one wish or one CS.

I had Intuition on the main, but I didn't use it even once in 30 games or so, so I removed it and I still haven't needed it. With 11 cantrips (and Merchant Scroll looking for a Brainstorm in some games against Goblins for example) I didn't have problems finding the Spirals.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Lol, that's a funny typo! (Goblin Chief not Thief, I command things stolen, I don't do the work myself ;) ) Happy to hear you enjoyed the article :D

To the Counterbalance-matchup (there is a more detailed explanation on the last page somewhere): the correct approach is to treat them as a kind of combo-deck (their combo being CB + Top) and to use your Cantrips and Merchant Scrolls to find more of your own countermagic, ignoring your own plans to go off (eg I pretty much always Scroll for FoW on turn two against them if I don't have one/don't have a Counterspell to keep up). You only have to make sure they can never stick a CB and you'll draw into Tide plus Spiral eventually to win because their clock is glacially slow. Is that the way you played the matchup?

PoN: I would probably cut the Wish, but you know my decklist already so I'm obviously biased. Whatever you decide is less important is fine, but the single PoN gives you an additional 10+% or something ridiculous like that against Fish on its own from what I've seen in my testing so far, more than paying for the one slot it costs you.

Intuition: Our experience is quite different here, I find myself Scrolling for Intuition on turn two against aggro all the time. All the better if you don't need it, it's definitely one of the weakest cards in the deck to just draw, especially after Spiral.

[kingtk3]

...

To the Counterbalance-matchup (there is a more detailed explanation on the last page somewhere): the correct approach is to treat them as a kind of combo-deck (their combo being CB + Top) and to use your Cantrips and Merchant Scrolls to find more of your own countermagic, ignoring your own plans to go off (eg I pretty much always Scroll for FoW on turn two against them if I don't have one/don't have a Counterspell to keep up). You only have to make sure they can never stick a CB and you'll draw into Tide plus Spiral eventually to win because their clock is glacially slow. Is that the way you played the matchup?

...

Interesting approach to the match up. I didn't reflect much during the game, but thinking backwards I my priority was to stop CounterBalance from hitting the table; although maybe i should have tutored a FoW over a turnabout, I remember chosing the latter because I thought I could tap oppo's lands before he passed in order to go off.

While this was almost succesfull against countertopther (1-1-time= draw), versus CB Bant it wasn't enough because their clock is much faster: turn 2 goyf, turn 3 Rox Warmonk, proceding to win with counter backup. In this match I didn't had the time to fetch some counter because I was in hurry and so I lost to his counters.

I'm excluding God's Hands (T1 SDT, T2 CB, blind-flip a CC3 on my Wish) on purpouse because sometime the deck wants to win no matter what.

[Philipp2293]

I really enjoyed your list too, I'm not a combo player, but I bought the missing cards for the deck after playing with it for some time, the feeling during playing is great. Could you comment a bit on the bad MUs? I haven't played against the Folk yet, but I imagine U+Clock is hard. The MUs against even medium fast U decks were nice :)

[Infinitium]

Intuition is awesome postspiral. It fetches spiral#2 if nothing else, which reduces variance. Also in my build it can also fetch Capsize via Scroll, which generally ends the game with Candelabra on the table ('sup infinite mana and bouncing your board).

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@kingtk3: I've only played a few games (all on the draw) so far against the less controlish versions of CB (at least I've finally gotten around to testing them :p) and my opponent had CB + Top in hand turn 1 all five games and FoW backup in two of them (still won 2 and threw away a third. I could probably have even won the fourth with better play but I'm not confident that's the case). You definitely have to approach this matchup a little different from the true control-builds as you don't have the luxury to completely ignore their clock. This makes the match somewhat harder but at least they have fewer counters meaning you don't need as much defense, either. Note that this really is what I learned from only five games, though, so handle with care.

@Philipp2293: Thanks for trusting me enough to shell out money on the deck! Happy you enjoy it.
As to matchups, the funny thing is, I haven't found anything yet (pure pre-board testing) that is actually bad... I'm sure something will come up (or change to bad postboard) but so far the worst matchups have been about even, with NBS favored when on the play. Merfolk for example is a bitch when you're on the draw but far easier when you're on the play. Many of the aggro-matchups can be a little difficult on the draw if they have a good hand because they should goldfish turn 4 then - and you only go off turn three about half the time. I lost twice to Goblins because he killed me on his turn 3 (my turn 2), too.

@Infinitum: I hate Spiraling more than once because it gives me another chance to fizzle and my opponent another chance to draw the nut counter hand. I usually try to go off with just Tides/Untappers/Zenith post-Spiral, which should explain why I hate drawing the Intuition. It's perfectly fine and a good security-blanket to be able to simply Spiral once more, but I prefer the clean kill. Not drawing non-Spiral business forces me to cast more than one of the damn thing often enough anyway.
The whole Candelabra-thing is cute (I had Capsize instead of Wish as a removal/way to go infinite with Clouds, too) but essentially unnecessary.

[Zinch]

@Mon, Goblin Chief:
Sorry for the typo... Lol.

Maybe it's time for a primer in the Established Decks forum? Mon, Goblin Chief? Egosum? Anyone else?
It will help new players to play the deck and maybe get more tournament results...

[egosum]

It s up to the moderators to move it to the established decks thread. But if they move it there I'd be happy to make a nice and complete primer, for sure!

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Zinch]

A moderator is needed to move the current thread to the Established Decks forum, but anyone can open a new thread there (with a good primer or it will be closed). At least that's my understanding.

Obviously, is always better to do this kind of movements under a moderator consent.

[BattlefieldMedic]

For those of us that are new to the deck, would someone be willing to do sample/mulligan hands?

Some tips on how to play the deck would be useful as well. I tend to crap out sometimes out of nowhere.

[egosum]

Added Primer to Established Deck section: here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20172-[PRIMER]-Spiral-Tide)

Greetings,

Iñaki.-