[MBS] Glissa the Traitor

[alphacat]

Glissa, the Traitor GGB
Creature - Zombie Elf
First strike, Deathtouch
Whenever a creature an opponent controls is put into the graveyard from the battlefield, you may return target artifact from your graveyard to your hand.
3/3

This can kill 90% of the creatures that blocks it in Legacy, and seems extremely powerful in a modified Rock shell with utility artifacts like Capsules.

Do you guys think this will see play?

[Aggro_zombies]

Glissa, the Traitor GGB
Creature - Zombie Elf
First strike, Deathtouch
Whenever a creature an opponent controls is put into the graveyard from the battlefield, you may return target artifact from your graveyard to your hand.
3/3

This can kill 90% of the creatures that blocks it in Legacy, and seems extremely powerful in a modified Rock shell with utility artifacts like Capsules.

Do you guys think this will see play?
No, because:

1) Your opponents need to be playing creatures,
2) A black-green aggro rock deck would not be interested in running this as it is not very aggressive and the best cards it can return are slow,
3) A black-green control rock deck would not be interested in running this because the Eternal Witness and Genesis/Stronghold combo is better and less conditional,
4) The best self-sacrificing artifacts that are actually reasonable to cast are Executioner's Capsule and EE, both of which would work better if you splashed blue for Trinket Mage. But if you're in blue...
5) Academy Ruins is simply better.

[sdematt]

This basically would serve the same slot as Doran in Rock, but I'll give it a shot. 3/3 First Strike Deathtouch is nothing to sneeze at. The other ability I could care less, unless you're playing equipment and EE or something. Interesting, but will require testing.

-Matt

[Aggro_zombies]

This basically would serve the same slot as Doran in Rock, but I'll give it a shot. 3/3 First Strike Deathtouch is nothing to sneeze at.
Doran is probably still better, though. What decks are afraid of first strike and deathtouch?

Merfolk could just opt to not block it, since that deck can do way more damage on the back swing. If you leave zombie Glissa open to block, it either gets tapped by Rejeerey or you get pounded by flying Commanders.

It has an ass of three, so its battlefield life expectancy against Zoo is approximately zero.

Vengevine decks can fly over it with Wonder.

Most other decks are either bad or don't run enough creatures to make the auto-kill relevant.

[Skeggi]

First Strike + Deathtouch is very strong, we know this from Voracious Cobra back in the Invasion days. Now, with power creep that card is utterly unlpayable. Glissa has the following: lower mana cost in better colors, higher power and toughness, a random seems-to-be-okay ability, Legendary status. Of course the only bad thing about it is that it's a Legend. A 3/3 First Strike Deathtouch for 3 mana is a good deal on its own. The fact that she also may get your Engineered Explosives back is a nice extra. I think she's totally playable and will turn out to be a nice 2- or 3-of in Eva Green, The Rock and perhaps even Team America. Eva Green and Team America will have to compensate the double Green in the cost though, so that might be a problem. I also wonder if she might have a spot in UGB Landstill because of her ability to recover artifacts. Yes, Academy Ruins is also good for this purpose, but everyone who plays Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold knows that these cards cost mana and take time. Glissa has the potential to generate quite alot of card advantage, seems like a must-deal-with threat to me. When Glissa hits the table, she's begging for a removal spell.

[Hawdes]

First Strike + Deathtouch is very strong, we know this from Voracious Cobra back in the Invasion days. Now, with power creep that card is utterly unlpayable. Glissa has the following: lower mana cost in better colors, higher power and toughness, a random seems-to-be-okay ability, Legendary status. Of course the only bad thing about it is that it's a Legend. A 3/3 First Strike Deathtouch for 3 mana is a good deal on its own. The fact that she also may get your Engineered Explosives back is a nice extra. I think she's totally playable and will turn out to be a nice 2- or 3-of in Eva Green, The Rock and perhaps even Team America. Eva Green and Team America will have to compensate the double Green in the cost though, so that might be a problem. I also wonder if she might have a spot in UGB Landstill because of her ability to recover artifacts. Yes, Academy Ruins is also good for this purpose, but everyone who plays Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold knows that these cards cost mana and take time. Glissa has the potential to generate quite alot of card advantage, seems like a must-deal-with threat to me. When Glissa hits the table, she's begging for a removal spell.

She would have a spot in the Aggro Elf lists aswell, along side Wren Run's Vanquisher and such I believe... The main problem Elf Aggro decks have are the lack of big creatures (most are 2/2 or below). Might be playable.

[Aggro_zombies]

First Strike + Deathtouch is very strong, we know this from Voracious Cobra back in the Invasion days. Now, with power creep that card is utterly unlpayable. Glissa has the following: lower mana cost in better colors, higher power and toughness, a random seems-to-be-okay ability, Legendary status. Of course the only bad thing about it is that it's a Legend. A 3/3 First Strike Deathtouch for 3 mana is a good deal on its own. The fact that she also may get your Engineered Explosives back is a nice extra. I think she's totally playable and will turn out to be a nice 2- or 3-of in Eva Green, The Rock and perhaps even Team America. Eva Green and Team America will have to compensate the double Green in the cost though, so that might be a problem. I also wonder if she might have a spot in UGB Landstill because of her ability to recover artifacts. Yes, Academy Ruins is also good for this purpose, but everyone who plays Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold knows that these cards cost mana and take time. Glissa has the potential to generate quite alot of card advantage, seems like a must-deal-with threat to me. When Glissa hits the table, she's begging for a removal spell.
The body isn't very good, though.

In Legacy, most creatures either have power greater than converted mana cost (Goyf, functionally also Knight and Tombstalker), have evasion, or are utility creatures that rarely enter combat (stuff like Bob). The only real exceptions to this are the creatures in tribal decks, which are there because of their synergy.

Glissa has power equal to converted mana cost. At the same converted mana cost, you get Knight (huge, kills basically anything it gets into combat with), Clique (evasion, rarely blocked), and Show and Tell for Emrakul. Glissa doesn't have evasion but will rarely get blocked anyway because of the combat abilities. That said, why is she better than Clique, which is also three evasive power for three mana? Why is she better than Knight, which is easily double her size and has an ability that works well in basically any deck? She's certainly not better than Emrakul, which wins when it attacks.

Plus, three toughness means she's in easy range of Bolt effects against red decks and Firespout from more control-oriented decks. Being green makes her susceptible to Perish/Nature's Ruin. She has no built-in protection, so Path and Swords both kill her easily, and any bounce spell or Rejeerey trigger can remove her from defense. Her mana cost makes her difficult to cast in decks not already heavily green, but those decks have a lot of better options (like Knight). Plus, her keyword combination doesn't even matter against Storm, Thopter and Martell versions of Counterbalance, Lands, Sneak Attack decks, Landstill decks, Junk decks, Faeries, or any of a host of other creatureless, creature-light, or evasion-heavy decks.

Also, Eva Green is basically 100% worse these days than both Junk and probably The Gate. Team America would not want a card with such a "fair" power/toughtness to mana cost ratio, especially not one that requires double green. The Rock is about as unplayable as it's ever been, mostly because the aggro versions are Junk and the control and midrange versions don't actually do anything relevant to modern Legacy.

I mean, I'm trying as hard as I can to like her, but she's basically just an evasive 3/3 for three with an ability that rarely matters and a difficult mana cost.


She would have a spot in the Aggro Elf lists aswell, along side Wren Run's Vanquisher and such I believe... The main problem Elf Aggro decks have are the lack of big creatures (most are 2/2 or below). Might be playable.
Can't you just play a bunch of lords? Imperious Perfect and Elvish Archdruid all pump your team while having semi-relevant abilities, and Elvish Champion makes your guys unblockable versus, like, 50% of the format.

[Pastorofmuppets]

But like... What if we just used her as an EDH general?

[Atwa]

The body isn't very good, though.



How would you know? I haven't seen a single piece of art for this card.....

[Skeggi]

Glissa has power equal to converted mana cost. At the same converted mana cost, you get Knight (huge, kills basically anything it gets into combat with), Clique (evasion, rarely blocked), and Show and Tell for Emrakul. Glissa doesn't have evasion but will rarely get blocked anyway because of the combat abilities. That said, why is she better than Clique, which is also three evasive power for three mana? Why is she better than Knight, which is easily double her size and has an ability that works well in basically any deck? She's certainly not better than Emrakul, which wins when it attacks.
Glissa always wins combat with another creature, unless that creature has protection. So Glissa kills your big Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Terravore and even Emrakul if she needs to be blocked by him.

Comparisson with Vendiliion Clique is strange, because they would rarely battle for the same slot. Same with Emrakul. They do completely different things in completely different decks. It's like argumenting a Porsche 911 would be a bad car to use on rough terrain, and therefor is a bad car period.


She has no built-in protection, so Path and Swords both kill her easily, and any bounce spell or Rejeerey trigger can remove her from defense.
Tarmogof, Tombstalker and Knight of the Reliquary are cards you apparently do like, but also have this problem. Why does it apply to Glissa but not to these creatures?

I'm not saying Glissa will be the best creature ever,of course there are many points where you could argue she is not good. But I certainly see potential.

[kiblast]

But like... What if we just used her as an EDH general?

I just started EDH and now I take cards from this point of view, too. I'ts amazing how each card that doesn't make the cut in competitive legacy 75, instantly seems gold in EDH. But this one should be ok as a general.

[Aggro_zombies]

Glissa always wins combat with another creature, unless that creature has protection. So Glissa kills your big Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Terravore and even Emrakul if she needs to be blocked by him.

Comparission with Vendiliion Clique is strange, because they would rarely battle for the same slot. Same with Emrakul. They do completely different things in completely different decks. It's like argumenting a Porsche 911 would be a bad car to use on rough terrain, and therefor is a bad car period.
No, the comparison with Clique is fine, because who ever blocks Clique? Similarly, who in their right mind is going to block Glissa when they have the extra life and you (probably) have other creatures that don't auto-win combat?

If you leave Glissa on D, there are plenty of evasive options in Legacy to circumvent her, and any single removal spell will clear her out of the way. Furthermore, she hardly justifies space in a deck when her top application is being the "best wall in the format."


Tarmogof, Tombstalker and Knight of the Reliquary are cards you apparently do like, but also have this problem. Why does it apply to Glissa but not to these creatures?

I'm not saying Glissa will be the best creature ever,of course there are many points where you could argue she is not good. But I certainly see potential.
Because Tarmogoyf is a 4/5 for two, Tombstalker is a 5/5 flying for three, and Knight is a 6/6 for three*. Glissa, on the other hand, is a 3/3 for three. The first three options may be just as weak to removal, but they are also way ahead of the curve in terms of size for mana invested, so the reward is well worth the risk.

She seems like a sweet "build around me" EDH general, and is hopefully less of a trap than Toshi Umezawa was.

*Shown are typical sizes. In-game size may vary based on matchup, length of current game, and opponent's hate cards.

[dahcmai]

She's like the best blocker ever. Takes down Goyfs, KotR, anything out of Zoo, Goblins, or Fish. Too bad there's not a deck right now that wants a blocker really.

I will actually keep this card in mind since it's strictly better than some sort of wall, but I don't picture myself using it as an attacker unless I have some sort of amazing Zombies deck where I can use Unholy Grotto or some sort of actual non-combo elves build that doesn't suck.

In standard and Extended, she's amazing though. First Striking Deathtouch is stupid good, always has been. Even better to finally have one with decent power. I'd rather have Lifelink any day over that stupid Artifact ability though.

[Skeggi]

I'd rather have Lifelink any day over that stupid Artifact ability though.
I suppose she'd make a fine carrier of Umezawa's Jitte.

@A_Z, I do agree with most of your arguments, however, I still think she's decent. I wouldn't write her off. While her clock isn't as impressive as we might like, she could still pose a big threat.

[dahcmai]

I noticed something nice about this card once I got to see the full wording on Salvation. It doesn't care if it's the card that puts a creature in the grave or not. That makes a large difference. So you can literally use an EE to kill something and if it was a creature you killed, the sacrifice part of EE makes it so that you just plain get to return it to hand. That's a whole nother story now. Reusable board wipe isn't bad ever. I think I might play with this just so I can blow up EE's and other artifacts that kill creatures. Maybe that ability isn't so bad after all.

[Tacosnape]

Yeah. Glissa and EE is actually pretty sick. I approve of this highly.

[Barook]

You can also use Urza's Bauble and Mishra's Bauble to generate card advantage without further mana investemensts. The delay in the draw sucks, though.


How would you know? I haven't seen a single piece of art for this card.....
Actually, we have the art of both the pre-release and the suppossed normal art:

Pre-release (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113575&d=1293147531)

Normal art (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/602_yq6gwtzyed.jpg)

[Rune]

Needs 1 more toughness :I

[alphacat]

I really don't get the hate for this card.

Sure, it's got a fragile body, and is a bolt magnet, but so what, so is confidant.

I understand how she's not as powerful as confidant in terms of utility, and not as cheap/beefy as goyf in terms of power, but the thing is, this lies in between these two types of creatures. It provides a decent body and very nice combat oriented abilities WITH the bonus of virtual card advantage without ANY investment once it hits play.

Sure, Academy fits the same role in terms of recursion, but academy is a VERY taxing and slow card. You need 1. landdrop, 2. mana, and 3. top card, to use it. It's more of a card selection engine than card advantage. Glissa gives you card advantage while you do stuff that you normally do. You kill their creature via combat, you get free artifact, you edict them, you get free artifact, they sac their Cursecatcher, you get a free artifact. Rather than seeing her as expensive 3/3, or expensive artifact recursion engine, why not realize that it fits either roles? And if she takes a bolt in the head where that bolt could have gone to Confidant, then count yourself lucky.

[atropos]

Actually, we have the art of both the pre-release and the suppossed normal art:

Pre-release (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113575&d=1293147531)

Normal art (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/602_yq6gwtzyed.jpg)

Did anybody else happen to notice the card behind Glissa? It has 4 CMC which is too high for Legacy for the most part but she has a new ability called "Battle Cry" which sounds like it could be cool.

[alphacat]

Did anybody else happen to notice the card behind Glissa? It has 4 CMC which is too high for Legacy for the most part but she has a new ability called "Battle Cry" which sounds like it could be cool.

People are speculating that it's a Goblin Piledriver-isque ability without tribal.

You know that spoiled are called 'Goblin Wardriver'? One can only dream...

[GGoober]

People are speculating that it's a Goblin Piledriver-isque ability without tribal.

You know that spoiled are called 'Goblin Wardriver'? One can only dream...

Piledriver + Warchief in one card :P

I personally think you guys should stash on Instigator, since it might spike due to goblins being playable in T2 if MBS is releasing more gobs.

[Barook]

Battle cry (Whenever a creature with Battle Cry attacks, each other attacking creature gets +1/+0 until EOT)

Is that just speculation or confirmed?

[4eak]

3cc creatures need to be really strong to even have a shot at competitive play. This doesn't seem good enough.

Wish it was:


2/4 (at least avoid burn)
The trigger was an e-witness effect (artifact retrieval alone is fairly weak in these colors)
At the very least, it should have been triggered on damaging the player (damned if you block, damned if you don't). If it triggered on attack or had the full blown M11 Titan clause ("enters the battlefield or attacks"), it would be even more playable.

Basically, for it to be clearly viable, it should have been a souped up hybrid of Eternal Witness and Ohran Viper


peace,
4eak

[FieryBalrog]

I'll just say what I said in the other thread: First Strike + Deathtouch is a super cool but poor substitute for being really fat. Both will win combats just as well while being really fat also kills your opponent a lot faster and lets you laugh at red-based aggro decks.

The ability is pretty random but will be fantastic with Engineered Explosives. The mana cost is incredibly restrictive and limits her to Rock decks or some hypothetical future deck. IMO Knight of the Reliquary easily wins the competition for the Rock's limited 3cc slots. Much fatter, less restrictive cost and has a better ability for the deck.

[Captain_Morgan]

She seems to be "made for a deck that doesn't exist or may never exist yet." The real question is whether there are many Black/Green cards that deal with artifacts in Besieged or Action block that can be used in some sort of deck.

[dahcmai]

Went hunting a few more uses just because EE has some promise, but I don't like two card combos. Found a few more.

Executioner's Capsule - Not bad

Pit Trap - meh

Apocalypse Chime - Take that Minotaurs!

Oblivion Stone - another meh.

Powder Keg - Not horrid, I guess.

Ratchet Bomb - Same as Powder Keg pretty much.

Tidehollow Strix - Makes for one annoying blocker. Wasn't there some deck that actually used this card?

EE seems to take the cake.

It's too bad that it can't be your own creature or Sylvok Replica would be the shit.

So all in all EE is about the only thing worth using unless you have some purpose in using one of those others anyway. Executioner's Capsule is decently useful though it's just a terror, but a reusable terror isn't the worst thing you could have. I might consider it if I was already playing Tezz or Trinket Mage.

I haven't played Eva Green in some time, does it have a use for EE anyway now?

[Barook]

What would be the best shell for Glissa anyway?

I think a Countertop-based shell with a Trinket Mage toolbox looks like the best solution. Counters help to make up for her lack of protection while Trinket Mages fetch whatever utility you need. Throw in some Dark Confidants and Tarmogoyfs and you have a deck.

Main problem are the mana requirements, though. :u::u: and :b::g::g: don't go along very well.

[alphacat]

I think you guys are really overthinking her ability a little. It's like tarmogoyf, when you design to maximize his deck, you make your deck sub par.

I think the point of Glissa is, she's got a nice body with relevent combat abilities, and IF/WHEN she recurs a countered Top or a used Explosives, that's just icing on the cake.

[Infinitium]

Agreed. 3/3 with good abilities is pretty fucking good in a vaccuum, good enough to see play in block and standard whether she's maximized or not. Dying to lightning bolt is regrettable, but first strike/deathtouch means that she'll dominate any non-evading board position there is whether it's racing or not, and that alone pretty much makes up for killing the opponent slower in a vacuum (seeing as it's a midrange card).

[arcboundravager2]

shes absolutely fucking insane with executioners capsule. kill your dude and get my kill spell back.

[makochman]

I haven't played Eva Green in some time, does it have a use for EE anyway now?

Eva Green - no, Pernicious Deed is better for it. Eva Green doesn't want a mana cost with GG. Maybe some BWG Rockguy deck with Tidehollow Sculler. Anyway, chances are her ability will trigger maybe once every 2-3 games on average... It doesn't look like a terribly useful card in Legacy.

BTW, if she's your EDH general, can you have colorless artifacts in your deck? (I think the rules say you can... which would make it one wicked general)

[dahcmai]

I actually proxied it up and replaced Goyf in a deck. lol It might actually take his place. It's working out fairly good so far.

[Barook]

I actually proxied it up and replaced Goyf in a deck. lol It might actually take his place. It's working out fairly good so far.
What deck are we talking about here?

[Atwa]

BTW, if she's your EDH general, can you have colorless artifacts in your deck? (I think the rules say you can... which would make it one wicked general)

Off course you can. You only can't use cards with colors which aren't printed on the general. If you take a look at the EDH forums, you see all sorts of colorless artifacts used in decks. If it wasn't legas, you wouldn't see people play cards like Sol Ring in alsmost every list.

[dahcmai]

What deck are we talking about here?


Oh sorry, my Landstill. I have goyfs and confidants, so I replaced the goyf with Glissa to see if I could gain a little card advatge and it works pretty decently. It's basically the BUG one, though I have red so EE was an easy fit due to the 4 colors. I had to ditch Pernicious Deed, but it's not a bad trade off to be able to reuse EE.

My largest problem now is I have Firespouts and Goyf survived those, Glissa doesn't.

[Valrina]

I dont even know which quote of guys with medicore arguments why 3/3 deathtouch firststrike is bad i should quote into my sig when this card wins tournaments.

[Rune]

I dont even know which quote of guys with medicore arguments why 3/3 deathtouch firststrike is bad i should quote into my sig when this card wins tournaments.

It dies to burn, it has no immediate impact on the board or any EtB triggers, it's a bad finisher and its mana cost prohibits it from being played in blue decks. It's very cute and all, but it is basically [cliché]in danger of cool things[/cliché]!


Do I win???

[alphacat]

It dies to burn, it has no immediate impact on the board or any EtB triggers, it's a bad finisher and its mana cost prohibits it from being played in blue decks. It's very cute and all, but it is basically [cliché]in danger of cool things[/cliché]!


Do I win???

Hot damn, you just described Dark Confidant!

[Valrina]

Hot damn, you just described Dark Confidant!

And I thought he talked about Vampire nighthawk... or Wild nacatal... or no wait grim lavamancer ^^ so jeah basicly with that much nonsense you maybe win.

[Hawdes]

And I thought he talked about Vampire nighthawk... or Wild nacatal... or no wait grim lavamancer ^^ so jeah basicly with that much nonsense you maybe win.

Those are my all time favourite reasons to not play cards... "It dies to removal.", "It dies to bolt.", "It can be countered." Well, don't play any spells then? Just run 60 lands and we have our deck.
I think that the reality people has have been twisted. People demanding a creature to beat for 20, have haste and can't be dealt with... Come on people... Stop being ignorant and see the cards for what they are.

A side note. If blue is the best color. Then we should encourage Wizards to remove the whole color pie, just print blue cards and we'll have the best card game ever with all the blues beside eachother, portraying a nice Picasso painting.

[Barook]

it has no immediate impact on the board
She rapes pretty much every creature without evasion or protection in combat. Your opponent can't simply swing with his fat into your Glissa or she will eat them alive.

If your opponent doesn't have removal for her, he either must stop swinging or accept card disadvantage for further aggression.

[dahcmai]

I was trying to use it in a deck that already uses it's creatures to block or give the fear of attacking into them. My Landstill uses Goyfs for that normally to hold off Goblins and cats. Glissa is actually better in some cases and is especially better overall since I can crack my EE's with no regard and just get them back. Her three mana cost actually works out well for that. It's also nice being able to sit back and stare down monster KotR's and Terravores laughing because they die if they attack. I am playing Counterbalance so it's not real hard to counter the removal.

Bash her all you like. I probably will be playing her against you.

[FieryBalrog]

I was trying to use it in a deck that already uses it's creatures to block or give the fear of attacking into them. My Landstill uses Goyfs for that normally to hold off Goblins and cats. Glissa is actually better in some cases and is especially better overall since I can crack my EE's with no regard and just get them back. Her three mana cost actually works out well for that. It's also nice being able to sit back and stare down monster KotR's and Terravores laughing because they die if they attack. I am playing Counterbalance so it's not real hard to counter the removal.

Bash her all you like. I probably will be playing her against you.

And I will be Wastelanding your UUGGBR mana base.

[4eak]

If Vampire Nighthawk is the measure of competitive viability (a card which really doesn't see a great deal of play), then sure, Glissa should be a fine addition to Legacy. I guess I'm holding the standard up a little bit higher than 'fringe card'.

Comparing a 3cc creature to Wild Nacatl or Grim Lavamancer (both 1cc) is bit like apples and oranges. You need to compare this card to something like Knight of the Reliquary.

KoTR is almost always immune to a single Lightning Bolt. This is very valuable against Zoo (a pretty common deck). Against something like StP, a large KoTR can actually swing life totals in a meaningful way as well, unlike Gliss.

In blocking, KoTR "rapes pretty much every creature without evasion or protection in combat" on raw size alone. KoTR also can be activated while playing defense, guaranteed. Gliss gives your opponent the 'choice' to allow Gliss to trigger recursion because of Deathtouch. So, they don't swing, and you don't get a ton more advantage other than stalling. KoTR's stalling only makes the board position more favorable over time (especially if you are tutoring-up and digging with Horizon Canopy).

In attacking, KoTR actually ends the game in 2-4 unblocked hits. This means your opponent is much more likely to need to block KoTR. At 19-20, I'll be happy to let a 3/3 Gliss go unblocked, and you don't get much CA-based benefit from it. I'm far less likely with KoTR, and you'd be more likely to gain CA-based benefit from it as my board is attrition-blocked away.

Besides growing itself, KoTR's ability is an instant-speed tutor. Various things you'll do with it: Grab a missing 3rd color, Bog, Tabernacle, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Wasteland, ridding your board of Islands (if you have them, and face LoA), Horizon Canopy, fizzling opposing Wasteland (rare), +1 mana boost in a single turn (I've needed for 4cc spells with only 3 land in play) -- there are many other strong choices (Academy Ruins, for example, which can nearly do what Gliss does).

Gliss's recursion trigger is cool because it occurs with any opposing creature hitting the GY. Removal is excellent alongside the card. The bad part is that the targets which you can recur are very limited in scope. EE and Executioner's capsule are good, but these about the only real targets I expect to see at the moment. You also need to already have these cards in the GY, unlike KoTR which doesn't have these requirements.

Finally, :g::g::b: limits where this card can be played. :1::g::w: is much easier to get. White is also a better removal color (which is certainly something which interests anyone playing Gliss).

Gliss is (theoretically-speaking) possibly but implausibly a competitive card in Legacy at this point. Gliss will certainly see play (people will always try to force new cards into decks; and this is probably worth tryng). It isn't an obviously broken card is Legacy, but it at least on the edge of playable. Do remember Lorescale Coatl. That card gets huge fast in Legacy, it's in good colors, and it still doesn't see much play. Likewise, I know I'm going to play with Gliss because it looks fun, but perhaps it is best to exercise restraint, admitting that it likely isn't a very strong Legacy card.



peace,
4eak

[majikal]

Three pages and nobody has brought up the fact that this fucking thing is Legendary? It'll be a 2-of at most. Not exactly the reliable, swarm-crushing machine (heh) it would otherwise appear to be.

[lorddotm]

"It dies to bolt."

What is wrong with that logic?

When there is a deck that plays 7-12 Bolts, I think that would be pretty relevant. In fact, I'm sure there isn't one Zoo player alive that wouldn't like to see this guy come down on turn 3 since they can trade a card and R for your turn and dude.

[Filth]

Glissa is good with Mishra's Bauble.
Dark Confidant is good with Mishra's Bauble.
Glissa and Confidant share a color.
All three cards are at least somewhat playable on their own.

Maybe just cute tricks, but someone's going to play those cards somewhere. Add the small facts that Bauble is +1/+1 for Goyf, and Glissa both wields and protects Umezawa's Jitte (which you'd want to play anyway because it makes Bob a threat) like a boss, and there's got to be some kind of a deck that can utilize all these small synergies.

[Valrina]

If Vampire Nighthawk is the measure of competitive viability (a card which really doesn't see a great deal of play), then sure, Glissa should be a fine addition to Legacy. I guess I'm holding the standard up a little bit higher than 'fringe card'.

Out of my head I can name 3-4 decks that play nighthawk ( given not in every build) that seems an way wider array as lavamancer for example. True that those decks doesnt show up as much as Zoo but how popular a deck is doesnt say much about the playability overall of the cards in it. Zoo is very Synergetic still some of the cards can be played just in Zoo, which makes them good cards in this deck which is a common one but makes them basicly the real "fringe cards" since they are only able to exist in this one deck.


Comparing a 3cc creature to Wild Nacatl or Grim Lavamancer (both 1cc) is bit like apples and oranges. You need to compare this card to something like Knight of the Reliquary.

True but I was responding to the stupid description of the card that happend to fit for a dozen other playable cards also, so I named a few.



KoTR is almost always immune to a single Lightning Bolt. This is very valuable against Zoo (a pretty common deck). Against something like StP, a large KoTR can actually swing life totals in a meaningful way as well, unlike Gliss.

That is a good argument, and you are right, stilöl there should be a mention zoo is the only Deck against that matters (don´t start with burn if a burn player bolts your glissa he is an idiot), and how big a knight is is very conditional he needs a setup, without that he is even smaller than glissa.


In blocking, KoTR "rapes pretty much every creature without evasion or protection in combat" on raw size alone.

he rapes many things ... but not everything without evasion (flying) and protection. Other Knights for Example, Terravore, Noughts (espacilly not if he is played turn 3 because than night isn´t 10/10 normally) Oh and...he doesn´t rape Glissa in blocking while glissa rapes all the examples above ;)


KoTR also can be activated while playing defense, guaranteed.

true


Gliss gives your opponent the 'choice' to allow Gliss to trigger recursion because of Deathtouch. So, they don't swing, and you don't get a ton more advantage other than stalling. KoTR's stalling only makes the board position more favorable over time (especially if you are tutoring-up and digging with Horizon Canopy).

Sry but did you read the card ? While it is true that glissa needs a harder setup, but it is in no way the choice of your opponent. The card doesn´t read "when you firststrike/deathtouch something you get an artifact back" It reads whenever a creature is put into a graveyard, so it can go there by removal or sacrifice (which are typical black ), not to mention how well this plays with: Capsule, EE, Ratchet Bomb.

Where is the choice of my opponent here ? " I EE your CC1 Zoostuff and get my EE back handle glissa or next turn I rape your goyfs withit, oh by the way if you attack without removal I also rape them with glissa"

And yes you need to have cards like that in your deck to make her really good, but ..you also talking about a big Kotr toolbox all the time (something many zoo decks dont have, some other decks playing him have it but still...)




In attacking, KoTR actually ends the game in 2-4 unblocked hits. This means your opponent is much more likely to need to block KoTR. At 19-20, I'll be happy to let a 3/3 Gliss go unblocked, and you don't get much CA-based benefit from it. I'm far less likely with KoTR, and you'd be more likely to gain CA-based benefit from it as my board is attrition-blocked away.

If you dont block her it doesn´t change much of how likely I will get CA, since I still can just removal, EE etc and trigger her because unlike knight she needs no tapping. Btw you need to tap him to get those CA while Glissa can act freely. Also you still need a setup for your knight to get him to kill in 3-4 swings, which is unlikely by turn 3, so lategame he for sure is the bigger threat attacking, but turn 3 ?

Also I am not sure if I consider being more likely to be blocked a good thing, also attacking takes away your chance to get CA with knight via his ability.


Besides growing itself, KoTR's ability is an instant-speed tutor. Various things you'll do with it: Grab a missing 3rd color, Bog, Tabernacle, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Wasteland, ridding your board of Islands (if you have them, and face LoA), Horizon Canopy, fizzling opposing Wasteland (rare), +1 mana boost in a single turn (I've needed for 4cc spells with only 3 land in play) -- there are many other strong choices (Academy Ruins, for example, which can nearly do what Gliss does).

true if you run an enormous amount of cards that are good with knight he is a very ytrong tutor engine ( even if a waste is a 2 to 1 landtrade etc etc.) and it grows himself. If I run a ton of cards to support her glissa also gets better, granted not as much as Knight. But also take into account if you use that he doesnt attack in that turn.

Btw Acedemy ruins is in no way near Glissa, please read the card. Besides the fact it needs 3 mana to be activatet, it generates at best CQ and lets you see less of your deck. While Glissa generates CA at zero manacost but a bit less reliable. Also if Glissa dies to bolt... Ruins die to Wasteland... which sees far far far more play.

(jeah stupid argument I know but I also have to read the stupid dies to removal stuff by every good creature spoiled, I also remember the omg Goyf dies to swords threads, good i got a playset for 8 bucks the day he came out.)


Gliss's recursion trigger is cool because it occurs with any opposing creature hitting the GY. Removal is excellent alongside the card. The bad part is that the targets which you can recur are very limited in scope. EE and Executioner's capsule are good, but these about the only real targets I expect to see at the moment. You also need to already have these cards in the GY, unlike KoTR which doesn't have these requirements.

You can bring back every artifact in the grave, it doesnt need to be one you sacced yourself, sometimes artifatcs go to grave on opponents hate, it also could be an artifact creature, or an artifact land, or you use stuff like loam and dredged it there also it looks nice with gravehate like crypt. True it needs to be in grave however this sentences shows you did read the card, no idea where the non valid statements before came from than.


Finally, :g::g::b: limits where this card can be played. :1::g::w: is much easier to get. White is also a better removal color (which is certainly something which interests anyone playing Gliss).

???? So if you play BG (maybe +x) you normally have colourless lands at your 3rd source ? really ? maybe thats why you never see nighthawk ^^ B based decks are always colourheavy, the cases in which you have a colourless land as your 3rd are ... nearly not there. If you play black based you nearly always need a 2nd black mana turn 2, a mana of your splashcolour by turn 3 shouldnt be too hard. true thats maybe not the case if you don´t play black based but thats the same like if I would say:" it is hard to play DoomsDay if I play Fivecolour without rits."

The last point should be, In every direct combat Knight gets terrible owned by Glissa...



Gliss is (theoretically-speaking) possibly but implausibly a competitive card in Legacy at this point. Gliss will certainly see play (people will always try to force new cards into decks; and this is probably worth tryng). It isn't an obviously broken card is Legacy, but it at least on the edge of playable. Do remember Lorescale Coatl. That card gets huge fast in Legacy, it's in good colors, and it still doesn't see much play. Likewise, I know I'm going to play with Gliss because it looks fun, but perhaps it is best to exercise restraint, admitting that it likely isn't a very strong Legacy card.



peace,
4eak

You name Nighthawk a fringe card and now you talk about coatl, ok forget that point. Besides that ... It is true she is not oviously broken. But she can go head on, with nearly every staple legacy creature, and has an evil sideeffect thst can be abused with the right toolbox.

The 3 major downsides are:

- Dies to Bolt (that is valid unlike it dies to sword *rolleyes*)
- She is not in the colours that are traditional playing a lot of artifacts.
- And the most important not mentioned here until now... she is legandary limiting her number in play.

About knight, sure one of the best creatures out there, but as you saw it has his downsides too, espacilly compared to glissa, which uses a completl different toolbox and fits another position in the deck also... so its not much better to compare this than to compare lavamancer...besides manacost. All in all your post just shows me that glissa is playable, since she can go eye to eye in an argument with one of the best cards out there in legacy. Maybe she loses a little in the end but if you have some points over knight (which decks other than zoo make way better use of btw.) than you are playable.

[FieryBalrog]

True that those decks doesnt show up as much as Zoo but how popular a deck is doesnt say much about the playability overall of the cards in it

Uh, yes it does. A card that shows up in a bunch of tier 2 decks, is not as good an indication of competitive viability as a card that shows up only in a solid tier 1 deck that is quite powerful.

Or do you want to argue that Bitterblossom is a more significant card for Legacy than Lord of Atlantis? The former sees play in all sorts of niche decks like Black Stax and The Gate and whatnot, while Lord of Atlantis "only" helps define one of the format's premiere decks.

How about Berserk vs. Ad Nauseam?


how big a knight is is very conditional he needs a setup, without that he is even smaller than glissa.

Oh please. Knight is if anything less conditional than Tarmogoyf, so why don't you tell us how Goyf is smaller than Glissa too. And he can make himself bigger while doing relevant stuff. "very conditional" my ass.

[4eak]

@ Valrina


Out of my head I can name 3-4 decks that play nighthawk ( given not in every build) that seems an way wider array as lavamancer for example.

3-4 if you are talking about all the variants of barely played pet decks. Sure. By the same token, Lavamancer has seen play in a very wide range of decks. Much wider and more numerous than Nighthawk. Should we list decks (most of which don't matter)? You clearly have no idea how many decks have used Lavamancer.


True that those decks doesnt show up as much as Zoo but how popular a deck is doesnt say much about the playability overall of the cards in it.

It does say something about the overall strength (a.k.a. playability) of Lavamancer. If Zoo is tier 1, and Lavamancer is an important part of the deck (assume for the sake of the argument that it is), then Lavamancer is a tier 1 card.

What else can you mean by playable? It must relate not just to the decks in which it is played, but also to the strength of the decks in the overall metagame. In this case, Lavamancer is head and shoulders more playable.

Obviously, popularity, insofar as it fails to match how popular a card 'should' be (if one actually had a map of the true theoretical metagame), is a terrible measurement. Insofar as tournament results (of which popularity is a factor) are relevant, then the popularity of decks and cards used in them will likewise be relevant.


Zoo is very Synergetic still some of the cards can be played just in Zoo, which makes them good cards in this deck which is a common one but makes them basicly the real "fringe cards" since they are only able to exist in this one deck.

Obviously, what makes a 'fringe card' is that it rarely 'deserves' to be played in Legacy. Vampire Nighthawk, historically, has rarely deserved to be played in Legacy. There were almost always better options and better decks (which are the deserving, non-fringe cards).

Don't get me wrong, I've come to love Vampire Nighthawk. I just know how irrelevant it has been at large. Calculating relevance or value is really complicated (my explanation only brushed the surface, obv.).


True but I was responding to the stupid description of the card that happend to fit for a dozen other playable cards also, so I named a few.

Of course, I'm not just responding to you. That said, the description "dies to lightning bolt" (one of the descriptions) happens "to fit a dozen other playable cards" which have lower mana requirements, that's the point. A creature which costs 9 mana and dies to lightning bolt likely demonstrates a very low cost/benefit ratio (it lacks the benefits of certain defensive qualities), and it generally doesn't demonstrate anything at 1 mana. At 3 mana, a creature which dies to lightning bolt isn't a great creature usually.

Having 3 toughness is a strike against the card. For that cost, I really do want some mitigation of lightning bolt and firespout.


That is a good argument, and you are right, stilöl there should be a mention zoo is the only Deck against that matters (don´t start with burn if a burn player bolts your glissa he is an idiot)

Wrong. Firespout is played in many control decks. Lightning Bolt has been played in TONS of decks, from Landstill to UGr Thresh to UBr Faeries to Goblins. Furthermore, cards like Gempalm Incinerator and an active jitte are other sorts of removal which remain relevant in this discussion. Toughness matters!


how big a knight is is very conditional he needs a setup, without that he is even smaller than glissa.

It isn't "very conditional" at all. Meeting the conditions to immunity of Lightning bolt is very easy. Get two lands into the GY. Most decks play KoTR have ~7-8 fetches, many with wasteland and canopy as well.

Even if you did drop him as a 2/2 (this is very rare), if your opponent doesn't have a bolt or spout in hand within the next couple turns, KoTR can still grow himself out of range. Glissa is ALWAYS susceptible, even a couple turns later.


he rapes many things ... but not everything without evasion (flying) and protection. Other Knights for Example, Terravore, Noughts (espacilly not if he is played turn 3 because than night isn´t 10/10 normally) Oh and...he doesn´t rape Glissa in blocking while glissa rapes all the examples above ;)

Again, the exact quote was "pretty much every creature" ... and that still remains true. Obviously, there are exceptions, even more exceptions than for Glissa.The point is that KoTR blocks and lives through almost as much as Glissa. Basically, in blocking, Glissa doesn't have a major edge in competitive play. Yes, it is better, but not by a whole lot. Considering that is probably the best thing about Glissa, my disappointment should make more sense to you. I'd much rather have the difference in P/T than the few exceptions where Glissa blocks more effectively than KoTR.


Sry but did you read the card ? While it is true that glissa needs a harder setup, but it is in no way the choice of your opponent...

Where is the choice of my opponent here ?

Yes. I did read the card.

Your opponent has the 'choice' to swing. You'll notice the section from which you quote me is exclusively about blocking. This is a choice, a very relevant one in the discussion of Glissa's recursion.


The card doesn´t read "when you firststrike/deathtouch something you get an artifact back" It reads whenever a creature is put into a graveyard, so it can go there by removal or sacrifice (which are typical black ), not to mention how well this plays with: Capsule, EE, Ratchet Bomb.

Surely you jest...as you point out later on, you can see where I explain "Gliss's recursion trigger is cool because it occurs with any opposing creature hitting the GY. Removal is excellent alongside the card."

Obviously, there are ways to force triggers. If you've actually sat down to play with these artifacts alongside Glissa (proxies), you'd find they are slow, mana intensive, and pretty awkward. Don't get me wrong, it can be a great combo, but it isn't going to play out as nicely as you seem to think.


I EE your CC1 Zoostuff and get my EE back handle glissa or next turn I rape your goyfs withit, oh by the way if you attack without removal I also rape them with glissa"

Lulz. You think Glissa will live for a turn against Zoo?


And yes you need to have cards like that in your deck to make her really good, but ..you also talking about a big Kotr toolbox all the time (something many zoo decks dont have, some other decks playing him have it but still...)


Ah, the point was the KoTR is far more versatile in its targets. Obviously, you won't need every tool, but you clearly can construct more efficient and effective (nearly uncounterable and instant speed) toolboxes with KoTR. KoTR's ability is likely a lot better than Glissa's.


If you dont block her it doesn´t change much of how likely I will get CA, since I still can just removal, EE etc and trigger her because unlike knight she needs no tapping.

You do realize that you'll need to warp your deck construction to consistently use that recursion, right? Allowing for consideration of mulligans, here are the odds of seeing at least one Glissa and at least one artifact (with varying numbers of artifacts in the full 60) given cards seen:

# of Artifacts: 7 cards seen, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

4: 15%, 17%, 22%, 27%, 31%, 35%
8: 24%, 30%, 35%, 40%, 46%, 50%
12: 31%, 37%, 42%, 47%, 52%, 57%

A surprising amount of the deck will need to be made of artifacts for you to consistently make use of the recursion. I think you'd need to warp it to your detriment in order to be able to consistently say "if you don't block her it doesn't change much of how likely I will get CA."

I really don't want to open hands with a ton of artifact removal/sweepers.

You also realize that EE and Ratchet bomb don't play nice with your own board, right? This is a serious limitation on deck construction or the value of these cards (depending on how many and which creatures you choose to run alongside Glissa).


Btw you need to tap him to get those CA while Glissa can act freely...also attacking takes away your chance to get CA with knight via his ability.

I hope you realize I wasn't talking about his activated ability in this section. In attacking, when your opponent must block and lose their blocker, you are generating CA. KoTR is much more likely to be blocked and generate CA in this sense. Where possible (and it usually will be) Glissa will often go completely unblocked and generate nothing for you. Your opponent can always choose to chump block Glissa, but they don't have to. They will very often be forced into chump blocking KoTR.

The difference between "must" block that is often posed by KoTR and "meh, I don't need to block" that is often posed by Glissa is very important in understanding the relevance of their attack strengths. There are, of course, cases where chump blocking sucks for the attacker, but those are quite rare and usually applicable to Glissa as well.

If both are blocking, they both generate similar CA. In attacking, KoTR is much more likely to generate CA, even alongside the times when you can trigger Glissa with removal.

Speaking about removal, if this was a choice between the StPs played alongside KoTR and the sorts of removal which triggers from the GY for Glissa, I generally prefer exile/RFG. The difference in mana efficiency should be noted as well.


true if you run an enormous amount of cards that are good with knight he is a very ytrong tutor engine ( even if a waste is a 2 to 1 landtrade etc etc.) and it grows himself.

It is a 1 for 1 land trade.


If I run a ton of cards to support her glissa also gets better, granted not as much as Knight.

It isn't just about how the cards support Glissa, it is the fact that you have to run SO many of them. You can run singletons for KoTR, and you have to run multiples for Glissa. Deck construction for KoTR's ability doesn't warp the deck, it does for Glissa. KoTR doesn't force you to run bad cards, in fact it let's you run great cards and tutor them up (or SB them). Glissa requires you to play mana inefficiently (Executioner's Capsule).

Importantly, and I can't emphasize this enough, board sweepers just aren't so impressive in a deck which would play Glissa. There might not be a home for Glissa, despite its coolness.


Btw Acedemy ruins is in no way near Glissa, please read the card. Besides the fact it needs 3 mana to be activatet, it generates at best CQ and lets you see less of your deck. While Glissa generates CA at zero manacost but a bit less reliable.

Times where board sweepers (arguably the best target) are really good will not be the sort where it matters if you getting an extra bit of CA from Glissa. Replacing your draw step will be worth the CQ for something like EE. If it wasn't, then EE probably isn't going to be terribly impressive. As for Ruins you'll find it performs even better than Glissa when you need to clear out 3cc.

Glissa's CA is nice, it is simply limited in scope (and that is a real problem).


Also if Glissa dies to bolt... Ruins die to Wasteland... which sees far far far more play....jeah stupid argument I know

Good thing the comparison between "ways to stop Ruins" and "ways to stop Glissa" aren't limited to just Wasteland and Bolt. Glissa is far and away easier to stop than Academy Ruins. There are a ton of answers to Glissa that commonly see play (Force of Will, Daze, Counterbalance, StP, PtE, Bolt, Chain, Incinerator, Jitte, EE, Jace -- and even side-channel defenses like Mother of Runes). The quantity of answers to Glissa greatly outnumber those which can answer Ruins.



[continued...maxed out on "images in my message" according to the board software]

[4eak]

???? So if you play BG (maybe +x) you normally have colourless lands at your 3rd source ? really ? maybe thats why you never see nighthawk ^^ B based decks are always colourheavy, the cases in which you have a colourless land as your 3rd are ... nearly not there.

Imagine if Tarmogoyf cost :g::g: instead of :1::g:. How much play would it see? Not nearly as much as it has. Color requirements are still serious limitations on the playability of a card and certainly a 'cost' to be considered in the cost/benefit analysis. :g::g::b: is substantially worse than :1::g: + (:b: or :w:) in a format with mana bases as complex as Legacy's.


The last point should be, In every direct combat Knight gets terrible owned by Glissa..

It just isn't that simple. I just won't block Glissa. If you swing, then I'll hit you much harder with KoTR. If you choose to sit at a standstill, I'll be digging for my removal (which I'll have in abundance as Zoo or I'll be Topping/Brainstorming/Pondering/Canopying/Jace'in for it). Most of the decks which play KoTR will be just as if not more likely to find removal as the deck playing Glissa (and decks playing KoTR can simply add as much as you have if they wanted).


But she can go head on, with nearly every staple legacy creature, and has an evil sideeffect thst can be abused with the right toolbox.

Granted. The question is one of opportunity cost. Obviously, we continue to disagree on that issue. I don't think Glissa has nearly as good of a cost/benefit ratio as KoTR (Glissa's costs being higher in color requirements and the warping of deck construction, and Glissa's benefits being much lower than KoTR's overall). Perhaps we still disagree on that point. I do hope I've got it all wrong, I'd like to see Glissa become a true []D[][]V[][]D.



peace,
4eak

[Crysthorn]

White is also a better removal color (which is certainly something which interests anyone playing Gliss).
A minor nitpick: for anyone playing Glissa white is actually a worse removal color, not better (both PtE and StP exile and Glissa trigger checks the graveyard, not the exile zone).

[4eak]

A minor nitpick: for anyone playing Glissa white is actually a worse removal color, not better (both PtE and StP exile and Glissa trigger checks the graveyard, not the exile zone).

My point had nothing to do with the interaction (or lack thereof) between StP/PtE and Glissa. I had hoped that the principle of charity would suggest a different interpretation; if it didn't, then please let me clarify the issue.

Anyone interested in playing Glissa obviously hopes to have some measure of creature control. In my view, white has the best creature control in Legacy (despite circumstances in which red, black, or even blue can have an advantage). StP, in particular, is the goto card. Assuming most decks, even those designed to beat opposing creatures, can't afford a ton of room for removal, I would almost always advocate white. (Cards like O-ring, Moat, Humility, Orim's Chant, PtE, WoG have few analogs, and rarely in the same color)

Assuming I was metagaming against a creature heavy metagame, and I'd be choosing either KoTR or Glissa, then I see the issue much like this:
[KoTR + White removal & colorless removal] vs. [Glissa + Black & colorless removal]

Judging the parts individually, I find the former is much stronger, especially when we include how KoTR can itself tutor up answers to creatures (Maze/Tabernacle/Wasteland/Karakas/Bog -- in varying circumstances). Obviously, there is a synergy which is more than the sum of its parts for both sides. Gliss's synergy is excellent, but it does not make up for the mana efficiency of the removal or gap between the individual parts.

I can't think of a Glissa-based deck that can't be improved by making a parallel-roled (if not the wider 'metagamed' given the variety of roles available to KoTR) deck with KoTR and white removal (note that KoTR can be played in decks with roles with far more variety, including G/W stax, DnT, Tempo Thresh, Countertop, Zoo, and even certain traditionally black-based decks sport him).

-------------------------

Regarding Legendary:

The card is good enough that the Legendary status isn't as problematic as many seem to think. It isn't broken good, but it obviously merits removal (multiples are fine here). The second one in play would have severe diminishing returns (so holding back isn't a huge deal). Even if it wasn't legendary, there are many cases where I wouldn't be dropping another for fear of overextending (even overextending into my own board sweepers).



peace,
4eak

[Tacosnape]

Already got my list.

I wanted to use Architects of Will, but the anti-synergy with Confidant just hurt too much. So instead, this:

2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou

4 Lotus Petal

4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Nihil Spellbomb

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Glissa the Traitor
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

[Tacosnape]

Already got my list.

I wanted to use Architects of Will, but the anti-synergy with Confidant just hurt too much. So instead, this:

2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou

4 Lotus Petal

4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Nihil Spellbomb

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Glissa the Traitor
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

[Vacrix]

Courier's Capsule. That is all.

[2Rach]

Already got my list.

I wanted to use Architects of Will, but the anti-synergy with Confidant just hurt too much. So instead, this:
Terrible. You don't need Bauble, you already have Spellbomb for the hard card draw ca and it doesn't eat 4 slots in your deck doing nothing except making you keep bad hands hoping you draw something good. Going w/ white and there's no Tidehollow Sculler or Engineered Explosives? Very few things to trigger the ability, need to wait for your opponent to be a retard and attack into Glissa or to block it. 4 Vindis/2 GK aren't enough. Manabase is junk. Need to work on those first drafts, guy. In the end, if this does see play, I think it'll be like Goyf. Don't build around it, just stick it in a deck that can use what it does. Consistency is better than cute tricks.


EDIT:
Courier's Capsule is SLOW. If you use blue you go for the Trinket Mage+Exec Capsule/Explosives.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but in a format where Deed is considered too slow/mana intensive, I don't see how this is any different. Deed is better. Deed doesn't do damage like Glissa will swinging, but ability-wise, Deed is better and just as fast, with the same cmc. I'd choose deed over her any day.

[makochman]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but in a format where Deed is considered too slow/mana intensive, I don't see how this is any different. Deed is better. Deed doesn't do damage like Glissa will swinging, but ability-wise, Deed is better and just as fast, with the same cmc. I'd choose deed over her any day.

Why compare Glissa 2.0 to Deed? They perform completely different functions, nevermind the fact that Deed usually costs a total of 5-6 mana to use while Glissa costs 3. Yes Deed is probably a better card in a vacuum but that's of little relevance.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

not in the context of the opening post, which refers directly to its use in the rock. This makes it of great relevance as Deed isn't in any of the lists posted to my knowledge, but for the metagame currently, Deed seems to be a better inclusion than Glissa. I understand we are talking about a new card and its usefulness, but it would seem wise to first establish its a better choice for the 3 cmc slot than other options. Deed costs 5 or 6 total, but effects the game-state much more dramatically than glissa will. Against Merfolk, it must be dealt with, and it can obliterate goblins, and can also turn the tide vs. Zoo. Functionally, glissa is almost useless until your next turn, which is when Deed would become useful, and also the extra mana will then be open, making that part of your argument moot. Basically, what is glissa solving? Is there a creature it's going to replace in the list because it's function is superior? Why is it relevant other than its new?

--ABC

[alphacat]

not in the context of the opening post, which refers directly to its use in the rock. This makes it of great relevance as Deed isn't in any of the lists posted to my knowledge, but for the metagame currently, Deed seems to be a better inclusion than Glissa. I understand we are talking about a new card and its usefulness, but it would seem wise to first establish its a better choice for the 3 cmc slot than other options. Deed costs 5 or 6 total, but effects the game-state much more dramatically than glissa will. Against Merfolk, it must be dealt with, and it can obliterate goblins, and can also turn the tide vs. Zoo. Functionally, glissa is almost useless until your next turn, which is when Deed would become useful, and also the extra mana will then be open, making that part of your argument moot. Basically, what is glissa solving? Is there a creature it's going to replace in the list because it's function is superior? Why is it relevant other than its new?

--ABC

I wrote the opening post, I suggested her utility in Rock, but why that would lead you to compare her to deed is beyond me.

You're saying that Glissa is competing for spot with Deed? Why? Other than the fact that they're both 3cc, there's nothing in common. Your logic eludes me.

If you want to analyze spots, then you should compare Deed with EE, and ask yourself which is more fitting for the meta game. Both have their utility at times. But Deed or Glissa, makes as much sense as comparing Swords with Hierarch for the 1cc spot.

[Aggro_zombies]

I wrote the opening post, I suggested her utility in Rock, but why that would lead you to compare her to deed is beyond me.

You're saying that Glissa is competing for spot with Deed? Why? Other than the fact that they're both 3cc, there's nothing in common. Your logic eludes me.

If you want to analyze spots, then you should compare Deed with EE, and ask yourself which is more fitting for the meta game. Both have their utility at times. But Deed or Glissa, makes as much sense as comparing Swords with Hierarch for the 1cc spot.
I think the idea was that Glissa's best recursion target is EE, creating some overlap with Deed. Glissa essentially functions as a board control card in a similar manner to Deed, but the correlation is pretty loose.

[Jabari]

Some points I thought should be brought up for discussion. I feel that Glissa would be best used with Rock colors but a completely different more controlling build. EE is obvious but I think Glissa would be greatly complimented by Eternal Witness and possibly Tidehollow Sculler. I'm not sold on sculler though, I think it would be best to run few creatures then sweepers and lock pieces such as Tangle Wire, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack etc.

Of course this means branching out from traditional such builds but I definitely think it's possible with some focus. I'm gonna try and build one but I'll post it in the New & Developmental Thread after all the new cards are spoiled.

[DragoFireheart]

Glissa + removal + EE?

Her CMC is 3, so you can spam EE at 0-2 and kill everything that is cheap. Use Maelstorm Pulse to trigger her ability or kill things out of reach of EE. She can block nasty creatures while you empty their hand with discard.

[Barook]

It wasn't discussed yet, but Green Sun's Zenith can also fetch Glissa. Pretty good considering she's legendary and extra copies of GSZ can fetch accel or other things.

[The Big Ragu]

I can't be the only person here that's aroused by this new Glissa.

[dahcmai]

Mindslaver found a new lease. I am having some serious fun with this one. If she didn't have the first strike it wouldn't be half as good. You guys have to try her out with a Mindslaver. Just trust me on this one.

[DragoFireheart]

I can't be the only person here that's aroused by this new Glissa.

Some Rock players out there just creamed their pants at the sight of her. No, I doubt you are the only one. Also, as someone said, the green zenith can get her onto the field.

[Justin]

I can't be the only person here that's aroused by this new Glissa.

Are you referring to the card's abilities or the artwork?

[DragoFireheart]

Are you referring to the card's abilities or the artwork?

Probably both now that I think about it in hindsight.

[The Big Ragu]

Both. Great card, but I don't think it's going to really impact the format.