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ZeroStride
12-26-2010, 11:30 AM
Looking for some thoughts on an Infect build similar to The Gate, but without Gatekeeper. Why Infect? Jitte + anything is a 3 turn clock, and Hatred becomes fantastic. I am also looking ahead to the Phyrexian Crusader as a very strong player for the build.

4x Plague Stinger
4x Ichor Rats
4x Hand of the Praetors

1x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Hatred
2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Phyrexian Arena
3x Sign in Blood

2x Diabolic Edict
3x Smother

3x Chrome Mox
18x Swamp

I do not have any wastelands, as of yet, but if I did I would likely try and supplement them with Sinkhole. If I ran Wasteland, I'd replace Sign in Blood with Night's Whisper.

I am playing Mox over Ritual because I have a slightly higher curve than The Gate, and wanted to run 21 or 22 mana sources, with re-usability. My intent was that redundancy on card-draw would help offset the disadvantage of Chrome Mox. I am not sold on this decision, Ritual is pretty awesome, but my primary goal was to speed up my board by a turn, not just get a one-shot of mana. This could be the wrong approach, however.

With 3 Jitte, I seem to run across 2 more than I'd like. I am keeping 3 for now, but the 3rd is high on the list of cards to cut for Phyrexian Crusader.

I am still fiddling with creature-kill for my meta. Things I run in to are usually goblins (Edict bad), Emrakul off Show & Tell (Edict good), Affinity (Terror bad), Goyfs (Smother great!) and some big-green beats. So I've gone with 3 Smother, 2 Edict, with a 4th Smother and 3rd Edict in SB. Vendetta could be ok, but I'd probably have to drop Hatred. I am strongly considering Doom Blade over Smother, but am unsure.

Thoughts?

ChillerKiller0815
12-27-2010, 04:27 AM
Hi Zero Stride,

I always appreciate when people try new approaches. I myself play an Infect-Deck with some success. Me and my playmate (who plays the same deck) place top 8 in our local store on every event (~18+ people). People have not adapted to this new deck and donīt know how to play against it.

So what is the difference between your and my build. I play black and green and play it more like a stompy deck.

What are the merits of my approach?
- Every creature can potentially win with 1 swing.
- Opponent doesnīt know that and often leaves a creature unblocked
- There is no such thing as a mvp making it hard for the opponent to decide which creature to remove
- This deck is the fastest creature-based agro deck I know of. It can kill turn 2 and frequently kills turn 3. We sometimes simply race combo and not board at all if we are the starting player!!!!

What does this deck lack?
- We are an pure agro deck and lack control elements
- We have no card-draw-engine
- We invest a lot of cards in our killing blow, which leaves our hand ripped if the creature gets handled.
I wonīt simply give you my decklist. I will rather give you some thoughts and hints of mine and would like to see your thoughts in return. Maybe your approach evolves into a similar list as mine which would confirm the list I have.


So these are the questions or statements: (Budget reasons are no answer for a theoretical debate)

1. Why no green? It grants access to the most powerful pump-spells (Rancor, Berserk, Groundswell, Seal of Strength, Boar Umbra, Invigorate!!!!)

2. Why donīt you play the Artifact-Creatures with Infect, especially when planning to add Wastelands? (Necropede, Vector Asp, Ichorclaw Myr, Corpse Cur)

3. If I look at your list; I believe your fastest goldfish is turn 4 (1: Land Mox Stinger, 2: Land Ichor Rat attack 2 Poison!, 3: Land Hand of the Preators attack 8 Poison, 4: Win) Ok, you have a heavy disruption package that allows you to slowplay, but almost any creature can kill any of your creatures throwing you back for turns. You have 12 creatures to win meaning, that you will likely not see more then 3-5 in the entire game. Jitte can be equipped earliest turn 3 making a difference at turn 4; same goes for Hatred.

4. I would like to hear the game strategy against common decks like zoo, that have a higher threat-density, in which every creature is bigger than yours, that could land a game ending grim lavamancer, that play at least 2 more removal than you play creatures (4 Swords, 4 Path, 4 Bolt, Chain Lightning)  Except for the God creature for this matchup, the PHEREXIAN CRUSADER! I am really looking forward to this badass.

5. Hint: Think about the stupid look on your opponents face when you go:
- Turn 1: Forest, Tap, Xantic Swarm, Go
- Turn 2: Swamp, I would like to attack! Okay?, Opponent canīt play spells, and you proceed with ,tap/tap, Tainted strike on Swarm  1/1 Flying Infect, Invigorate for 0 mana and swarm  5/5 Flying Infect and opponent at 23 Life, 1 green for Berserk making swarm a killing 10/5 Flying Infect Trample creature not allowing the opponent to respond and leaving him with nothing else but to die. ;-)
- Letīs go on to game 2….. You have to concentrate not smiling stupidly when your opponents starts to go pale when you land something dangerous like a vector asp or god forgive a xantic swarm, plague stinger or necropede. Then you will smile stupidly again when he doesnīt kill your creature but plays a duress or thoughtseize making you show him your hand and he gets to see the Swarmyard that will hit play the next turn and he realizes that Xantic Swarm, Plague Stinger and Necropede are all Insects that will have regeneration from the next turn on……..HAPPY TIMES!

Would like to hear some thoughts...

ZeroStride
12-27-2010, 02:49 PM
Sure,

I actually played a stompy Infect for about 2 months and have many thoughts (though I didn't have Berserk).

Firstly, the "win fast" approach of the current stompy builds is too fragile. Right now, in order to assure enough pump-density, you need to run > 20 pump spells, leaving around 20 slots for creatures, and 20 for land. It is a creature-based damage deck, that runs only 20 creatures, only one of which has evasion, and all the rest are weak; none have protection (currently). Dedicating enough slots to pump means that you have no room for sufficient supplemental cards to ensure your beaters get through.

The mana-mix for a B/G build either leaves you at green-heavy for pump, or black-heavy for stronger creatures. Post MBS you'll need to be able to generate BB for Crusader, however also being able to generate GG for Vines is key. This makes the mana-mix hard, even with Bayou's and Verdant Catacombs (I ran 3 Bayou, 3 Overgrown Tomb, and 4 Verdant Catacombs and it's still not a 'sure thing' to be able to generate both GG and BB). This is compounded by the difficulties of having B available if you want to run kill or disruption (Duress etc) because in order to win the Storm-matchup you need B and Duress turn 1 or you are likely screwed.

The last week I played my stompy build, I ate 2 StP and 3 Gempalms and decided it was just too fragile. I hope that is very different after Besieged.

Answers to enumerated questions:
1. I don't want pump. It's a waste of slots in this build; even Invigorate. Pump-infect is great, but don't mix pump and control or you will end up with a crappy version of both (I know this because I tried).

2. The artifact creatures are more vulnerable, and have no evasion. 16 creatures is fine for control (see The Gate versions which use Tombstalker and Arena over Bob)

3. This play style would likely mean you lose. Turn 1 is Thoughtseize/Duress/Inquistion, or Mox-Hymn. Turn 2 is Hymn. Turn 3 is ideally Hymn also. You are thinking about this deck as stompy, and it's not.

4. Zoo isn't common in my meta, but the plans for dealing with it are: Hymn to Tourach, Smother, and sideboard.

5. Xantic Swarm is a total, and utter waste of a maindeck slot, even in a stompy-infect build. This may seem extreme, but it is of the utmost importance that you accel a creature in to play, disrupt, or have an amazing hand. Swarmyard is awesome, but in a stompy build, if it's not a Forest (for Invigorate) than it better be a swamp. Swarmyard applies to about 3/4 of the *current* playable infect creatures (rats, stinger, necropede) but Pendlehaven is also the same ratio, except the 1/1 requirement. I would play Noble Heirarch over Xantic Swarm in a stompy build. Hand-disruption is also a better choice than Xantic Swarm maindeck, as it can serve a similar purpose and is more generally useful, but again mana-balance enters in.

I have several versions of stompy lists I can post, but I think the discussion would be better off in the Berserk Infect thread. This is black-control Infect.

Clark Kant
12-29-2010, 09:10 AM
I like your deck, a lot.

At first, I thought it might be jank, but I understand many of the choices that you made. It makes sense to me.

A few suggestions...

Play 4 Phyrexian Crusader. That creature singlehandedly makes monoblack Infect viable. Plus it helps you abuse Hand of Praethators. Ironclaw Myr is also quite good.

What about Snuff Out instead of Smother or something? Being able to disrupt your opponent of their removal, kill a blocker and then attack all in the same turn when they are tapped out wins games. Or maybe 3 removal is all that the deck needs.

I'm not sure even 23 land is enough to support a 5cc card like Hatred. You do play lots of card draw though, so you will have to go by the deck's performance.

I really feel that Invigorate is too damn good not to play. Have you considered a very light green splash for cards like Invigorate and Rancor.

ZeroStride
12-29-2010, 01:12 PM
It does look like some jank, I don't disagree ;)

Looking ahead to Crusader is why I made the deck, and I am very excited about him. I am also hoping for at least one Infect creature with some utility, something like Gatekeeper would be fantastic.

I love Ichorclaw, and am trying to find a spot for him. I am running a lot (too much?) disruption right now, but cutting down on disruption feels like it makes the deck less consistent. I suspect that the deck may be able to take a more aggro-approach after Besieged comes along. Maybe moving to Ritual over Mox, but the reusability on Mox is so nice.

Hatred seems to be either really good, or a dead card. I am still not certain, but I think that it's reasonable. I have found that it is critical to imprint the proper card on Mox. Saying, "well I'll imprint this castable card because I'm sure to draw another land," is as foolish as keeping a 1 land hand on the draw, expecting that you'll see a land within two draws. So imprinting Hatred on an early Mox is likely a good move, since there is no assurance you will ever be able to cast Hatred, and you don't need to in order to win.

Green splash is still a really strong consideration. It would get me Grip, Pulse, and potentially Invigorate. I have the fetches, and 3 Bayou so it is a very viable splash for me. On the downside I'd be opening myself to potential color-screw and Wasteland. I think that the cards in Besieged will likely make the decision for me.

I went up to 4 Smothers, and 2 Edict main-deck. Snuff Out is really good, but I want to see how Hatred treats me over a few weeks first.

This is what I have for a list right now:

2x Diabolic Edict
4x Smother

1x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Extirpate
4x Phyrexian Arena

4x Hand of the Praetors
4x Ichor Rats
4x Plague Stinger

2x Hatred
2x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Ghost Quarter
4x Chrome Mox
15x Swamp

Ghost Quarter will be replaced with Wasteland once I can trade for some or find some on eBay.

I dropped a Jitte for an additional Hatred, still unsure about that. Dropped to 21 mana sources...still unsure about that. It's difficult to judge the right number. If I *needed* to cast 5cc spells, I think it's too low, but since Hatred is more of an option, rather than an integral element, I am toying with 21. I kind of feel like playing more mana, means I should be playing more cards that will gain benefit.

Went up to 4 moxes because it seems like opening hands with Moxes are substantially better than those without, even if I chose not to use it on my first turn, a T2 Arena is fantastic.

Sideboard I am playing tonight and likely this weekend:

1x Duress
3x Dystopia
3x Engineered Plague
1x Extirpate
4x Pithing Needle
3x Sadistic Sacrament


Thanks for the input. This deck is far from optimal, but I am trying to build, and fully grok a good shell for non-berserk Infect. With 4 pro-white/red first-strikers (with Jitte...god damn) I think that it will

Clark Kant
12-30-2010, 10:56 AM
Splashing green is definatley worth it.

Creature pump like Invigorate is more effective and more versatile than removal.

There's plenty of creatures Smother won't hit. But Invigorating your creature in response to your opponent blocking it, kills your opponent's creature dead.

Best of all, if your opponent has nothing to block your guy with, that Invigorate might be enought to kill them straight up.

Also, I prefer Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon over Hatred. It's a turn slower, but it's a whole lot safer.

ZeroStride
12-30-2010, 02:38 PM
Hmmm, maybe. I'm not entirely sold on that. Smother hits almost everything that is removable: Goyf, Piledriver, Merfolk of all kinds, Confidant, Hippy, Nighthawk, Vendilion, man-lands, Knight of the Relequary, and more. Generally speaking, anything that it doesn't hit will have protection anyway. When you think about win-conditions, there's 3 main types: spells (storm/burn), small cmc creatures, or cheat out a big one. The idea behind discard + smother is to remove large threats before they hit the board, and smother small threats. Edict can help with the big ones but that's an 'if' not a certainty.

Pump may be more versatile than removal, but that doesn't mean it's more useful than removal. I don't think there is a single game I would have won last night had I been packing pump instead of removal. Mostly the opposite. I went 2-2, losing to Stasis and U/W control. Phyrexian Crusader would have won me games, but not pump. Running no removal maindeck means you need to run them in the sideboard. Taking up slots in the sideboard for cards you will side in against almost every creature-deck is a waste of sideboard slots; instead you simply side-out the removal vs. non-creature decks. If you have no removal, you will lose; and that's really all there is to it. Infect doesn't have the advantage of being able to run dual-purpose removal + clock-speedup, like Bolt etc. Removal is really not optional in Legacy; only a very small number of decks can get away without it. I don't think this is one of them.

Infect players seem obsessed with pump. While I don't disagree that it is powerful, it doesn't do anything to combat the fragility of the non-protected, non-evading creature base that we have available to us. Instead, it's throwing more eggs into the same basket. There are some 11,000+ cards that are legal for play, and unsurprisingly, lots of them are cards you wish you had in your hand at certain times. I think you either need to go balls-to-the-wall pump, or play the game of preventing early threats, and using Phyrexian Arena to keep-up steam while your opponent is in topdeck mode.

ZeroStride
12-31-2010, 01:21 PM
Re-read Flores' article about making holes, not buying drills and spent a good portion of last night poking, testing, and tweeking a B/g build, and I more pleased with this.

This has a smoother curve, and tops out at cmc4, making my mana base more reliable than with the Hatred at cmc5.

I do not have as much love for Blight Mamba as I do for Ichorclaw Myr, but I can't imprint Myr, and I want to make sure I have the card-color base to support Mox. I don't think that Mamba has gotten enough play-time from me to judge him harshly yet, and with a control-slant, as opposed to an aggro-slant, the regeneration ability could be great. Sure would be nice if it was only G though.

3x Bayou
3x Blight Mamba
4x Chrome Mox
2x Duress
2x Extirpate
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Hand of the Praetors
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Ichor Rats
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Marsh Flats
3x Phyrexian Arena
4x Plague Stinger
3x Smother
2x Stonewood Invocation
7x Swamp
1x Thoughtseize
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3x Dystopia
3x Engineered Plague
1x Extirpate
3x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle
1x Smother


Current considerations:
- 1 or 2 Land Grant, cutting 1 or 2 Swamp. Why? For Imprinting on Mox to get a green source (or to get a land, obviously). I am probably not going to do this, because I dislike showing my hand. That reasoning could be fallacious though, so I am still thinking about it.

- I wish I knew what the meta looked like this weekend, so I could know if I should cut E. Plague or not. I'm leaning twords cut, and I would replace with Pernicious Deed (though I would have to get ahold of another one or two).

- 3 Jitte instead of 2. I have run with 3, and I seem to see it too much. That doesn't mean that 3 is too many, unfortunately; it just means that those games I happened to see 2 or even all-3, and none of them got countered/discarded/removed. I think I'll stay at 2 for now.

Sturtzilla
12-31-2010, 02:11 PM
Greetings,

If you are going to make the commitment to a second color, green, you basically need to run Berserk and Invigorate. I think we are have figured this out by now but just in case, check this out.

Turn 1:
Land
Chrome Mox-Imprint
Two-Drop Creature with infect

Turn 2:
Swing in with the creature
Invigorate and then Berserk

Basically you are looking at potential turn 2 wins if the spells stick. Moreover you would be probably winning by turn 3-5 in an average game. The best part with Berserk is that all of your dudes need to get blocked or removed or your opponent basically get killed. In my opinion it makes the deck a lot stronger overall. My suggestion would be to remove the Hand of the Praetors and the Stonewood Invocation for starters. This deck should be able to win before it needs four mana sources, even if you are playing a control game first. Other creatures that should be in the deck, in my opinion, Ichorclaw Myr and Necropede. I know they don't go well with the Chrome Mox. I think they fit in here better than the Hand of the Praetors do from a speed and cost level. And if Chrome Moxes don't pan out, you can go to Lotus Petal. I apologize if I have slanted this to far to an aggro game plan. Thoughts?

ZeroStride
12-31-2010, 02:34 PM
No, no, and no a third time.

Please read the previous posts in this thread, and move discussion to the berserk/stompy Infect thread.

Edit: Maybe I need to make a thread wherein I post the stompy-Infect lists I have played over the last 2-3 months, and detail why the deck is too fragile with the current card-base. I strongly suspect nobody would read it. Instead everyone would continue to preach Berserk + Invigorate like it's some kind of magical combo no-one has thought of previously (despite the numerous threads everywhere), and simply must be a winning combo despite a total lack of consistent showing at any level of tournament play.

Seriously, what exactly has been proven about Berserk-Infect, except that it: consistently loses, and consistently excites people into posting nonsense about how badass that turn-2 win could be. If you want to possibly win on turn-2, and be consistent...play Storm combo, or Belcher, but...
-Don't play what is essentially a combo deck, without any dig, draw, tutor, or alternate win conditions.
-Don't play a deck that is packed with so much pump you have no ability to prevent threats, or respond to them after they hit the board.
-Don't play a deck that has no possible way of gaining card advantage.
-Don't play a creature-based-damage deck with creatures that have no evasion, protection, or utility.
-Don't play a creature-based deck that has only around 5-6 playable creature cards out of > 11k.
-Don't play a deck that folds to Swords, Path, Bolt, or any other removal that does at least -1/-1.
-Don't play a deck that folds to any kind of competent blue control.
-Don't play a deck that makes sideboarding a nightmare because each sideboard move *removes* consistency as opposed to increases it (What are you siding out: creatures, land, or pump? Each of those reduces consistency in a pump-Infect deck. With no tutor, draw or dig, are you just going to hope-and-pray you find that Krosan Grip?)

There are numerous other threads, on this, and numerous other messageboards, where people excitedly talk about their perfect, possible turn-2 win. Am I being a total dick by asking that discussion of that strategy take place in those places instead? Better yet, sleeve up the damn Berserk deck and take it to a tournament; prove me wrong, or take a hard look at why the deck loses, and fix it.

Sturtzilla
12-31-2010, 05:56 PM
-Don't play what is essentially a combo deck, without any dig, draw, tutor, or alternate win conditions.
-Don't play a deck that has no possible way of gaining card advantage.
-Don't play a creature-based-damage deck with creatures that have no evasion, protection, or utility.
-Don't play a creature-based deck that has only around 5-6 playable creature cards out of > 11k.
-Don't play a deck that folds to Swords, Path, Bolt, or any other removal that does at least -1/-1.
-Don't play a deck that folds to any kind of competent blue control.
-Don't play a deck that makes sideboarding a nightmare because each sideboard move *removes* consistency as opposed to increases it (What are you siding out: creatures, land, or pump? Each of those reduces consistency in a pump-Infect deck. With no tutor, draw or dig, are you just going to hope-and-pray you find that Krosan Grip?)

With all due respect, aren't you violating all of the quoted points above in both of the lists that you have posted in this thread?

This might be a deck that needs to wait until we see what we get out of Mirrodin Besieged.

ZeroStride
01-01-2011, 02:35 AM
I do not consider the deck to be violating those, but that is only my opinion.

-Phyrexian Arena is card draw. This kind of draw is only useful in a mid-range deck, it won't generate enough advantage in a stompy deck, because you are either blowing your pump, or you are likely losing.

-Phyrexian Arena and Hymn to Tourach are card advantage.

-While only one creature has evasion, the on-cast ability of Hand of the Praetors is very undervalued. Rats is CITP, but Praetors is on-cast. It may appear trivial, but I encourage you to try it out. It is not a viable stompy card, but it is a viable control card. Sticking a creature on turn-1, and trying to pump-to-win in one shot is a different strategy than removing early game threats, and sticking a creature mid-game to win, not minding that much if the creature is removed because there are more, and (ideally) you have been generating card advantage via Hymn/Arena, and removing the opponents quality cards via 1cmc discard.

-It violates the 'crappy creature' rule. I'm not gonna lie there. I want the Crusader badly. I hope there are more good cards to come as well.

-It doesn't fold to removal. Sure you can draw-out the removal in stompy, but you very-likely need that creature. Again, running a strong battery of 1cmc discard spells is the main method to protect your creatures. Again, you aren't racing. You have the hand-disruption, and the removal to answer threats. Chrome Mox is not in there to cast a turn-1 creature, and I don't recommend that play (in all cases, there are always exceptions).

-What does blue hate? Duress, Hymn, Extirpate. With threats as well as answers, the blue-packing player has additional choices, as opposed to the single-minded pump gameplan. You can answer their threats, which means they need to protect their threats. It's against Blue that Hand/Rats will start to shine.

-And finally, with a mid-range deck that has threat answers, and disruption. You board out the disruption that isn't relevant, and bring in the cards you need to win the match-up. Because the deck is designed to remove early threats before they hit, and answer later threats, sideboarding in the proper removal/disruption/answers is trading answers-for-answers; not core pieces of the deck for answers. In pump infect, you will almost always be boarding out something you need for consistency in order to bring in an answer; that answer is now, essentially, a disruption in your main game plan, which is: Win fast.

I am not saying that Pump-Infect will not be viable with a better creature base, what I am saying is that it is not currently viable, and that there are dangers in running the build which require some creatures with good utility in order to make-up for the creature/pump density you need to have in the deck to consistently draw hands that will win you the game.

Theory (and/or BS) about Pump-Infect
So lets say, hypothetically, you are running 4-6 cmc1 discard spells in your pump-Infect build. You are likely to see 1, or 2 in a game. This reduces card quality, but if you are running against something like Zoo, you have 4-6 cards to take out their (likely) 12 removal/burn. They'll be happy to answer your threats, for 1/2 mana, and lay down a Goyf. They have a higher threat density, and a higher answer density. You can blow some pump on a blocker, but their threats/answers are multi-purpose, and each pump-Infect card needs at *least* one additional card to be effective. Pump needs a creature (and creatures need pump), Berserk needs a creature + pump; at the end of your pump chain, Swords hits, and you have blown your hand.

So lets look at this theoretical pump-Infect deck:
4-6 cmc1 discard
16-20 creatures
17-20 mana sources (Chrome Mox would go in here if you run them, but more on Mox in Pump Infect a bit later)
16< pump spells, likely at least 4x Invigorate, 4x Berserk, 4x Vines, 4x Rancor. It is likely to be 20+, probably including Might of Old Krosa.
4 accel, likely Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal, or Dark Ritual (see * below)
And you are playing with a full deck.

Drawing an opening hand, you need at least 1 creature. At least 2 pump, and at least 2 land. Ideally you've got a Thoughtseize. Now look at that pump list; you need green sources as your primary mana color. You really want to have GG available on Turn-2. *This all-but-eliminates Dark Ritual as an accel choice, which is arguably the best accel for the available creatures; especially when you look ahead to Crusader. Even without Crusader in the mix, Ritual casts: Rats, Necropede, Plague Stinger, Ichorclaw. You can't confidently run Dark Ritual when you need to be that green-heavy for the pump. ESG is the next best choice, because you can out-manuver Daze with it, however you can't generate B with it (and turn-1 Plague Stinger is likely your strongest play), so it goes out the window, that leaves Lotus Petal. Petal is a great card, don't get me wrong, but it's not the ideal mana source for Stompy.

Rats are the next creature to toss out of the deck, because reliably generating BB is not viable if you want to retain enough G sources to have the pump always castable...and the pump *needs* to be castable from your first attack. Without being able to confidently run Ritual (because you have no assurance of seeing B on turn 1) the cmc3 on Rats is not a fantastic choice. No big loss, you think, but read Ichor Rats like it says '4/1, ETB deals 2 damage to all players'. That's not a bad creature. It's not great, but it's one of the stronger available Infect creatures.

Next, Chrome Mox. You are paying a cost for playing Mox; it's worth that cost, but it's still a cost. Mox is immediate card-disadvantage. But what are you imprinting? Non-artifact creature, or pump. Each of those resources are not easily replaceable in Pump-Infect. You don't want to imprint a creature, because you are only likely to see 1 or 2 in your opening hand, and you really have no assurance of drawing another one. Not playing Chrome Mox on Turn-1 is also likely not a viable option for the Pump-Infect player, because you really need that turn-1 creature. So imprint a creature/pump and hope for the best.

Now lets stop, at this point, and re-visit that opening hand. You now really want to see:
1 land + 1 Mox or 2 land
0 or 1 Lotus Petal
1+ creature
2+ pump, ideally 1 is Berserk

That is 6 cards you really need to see, or you will likely lose. Now, you may say, what about draws? How often have you had 2 land in opening hand and not seen a 3rd for several turns; even in a 22+ mana-source deck? It happens. That's about the same chance that you have of going a pump-Infect game without seeing another creature or another pump (not combined, you will obviously see creature OR pump OR land, but the issue is that you need pump/creatures, and a mana-flood will kill you).

Well where are we at now? It seems like the best thing to do is drop those cmc1 discards, and put in something like Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library. The issue with those is that they directly conflict with your game-plan. Library is better, but on Turn-2 you really need to be either attacking (with pump if you have it, since you have no assurance that creature is going to stick around) or worst-case, sticking your first creature. So Guile fits the plan better; you play a Turn-1 creature if you can, but otherwise you are playing Guile. Problem is: Guile just helps a bit with card quality. That is ok, but it's not Top. Ooh..what about Top you say? Well then you are reserving 1 mana for that card quality, and you just lost a potential Mox imprint slot, in what is already becoming an increasingly artifact-heavy deck.

So now we have arrived at a Green-splash-Black deck. Your sideboard is largely green + GY hate. The GY hate isn't Extirpate, because you can't be sure of the black source when you need it; instead it's likely artifact based hate...one less Mox imprint. Alright lets just drop Mox already and put in a different mana source. Do you drop land for Elvish Spirit Guide? No, can't do that...you're probably already at 18 sources as it is. You can maybe drop 1 or maybe 2 land for 4 ESG, but now you lost that power turn-2 with 3 mana available, and a possibility of generating B. Cutting other cards to make room, and now you have a more volatile mana-base.

Sideboard time!!
Ok what do we pack vs Zoo/Aggro...well Dystopia is out since generating BB is iffy. How about Pernicious Deed? That's badass! Well shit...with that mana base, hitting 3 mana is unknown, and you almost certainly won't see more...meaning you need to lay down Deed, and wait until your next turn to blow it up (unless you are blowing up Affinity under the right circumstances). You are also likely wiping your board. Sure that's better than dieing, but recall the importance of sticking an early creature...and then there's all that removal Zoo has. Targeted kill? Yeah that's good...how many, though? 4 isn't enough...what about 8? You're going to blow half your sideboard on targeted kill...and then board out half your pump to put it in? Well great, now your pump-density, and removal density, are about equal. You have no assurance of consistency in either pump OR removal, and...well Zoo has a lot of creatures.

Goblins? Not too bad, you can fly over them...they can cycle Gempalms. Not horrible, but not fantastic.

4 Nature's Claim...that's a no brainer.

4 Pithing Needles? That shuts down a lot, fits the curve, sure!

Merfolk...hmmmm. Engineered Plague? That doesn't get you there. It'll wreck Goblins, but not Merfolk. They have the removal (Swords or bounce), the card-advantage, and the counterspells to make sure they stick the lords first, and you are not likely to out-Plague them before they can out-Lord your Plague.

We could discuss more sideboard/meta but I think I have illustrated the difficulties.

Wrapping Up
So what does that wall-o-text mean? Eh, well, not a whole lot I guess. Like you said, we need to see what Besieged brings...but do not be overzealous. The Infect creatures are likely to change, but the shells will stay roughly the same. After playing Pump/Stompy-Infect for a few months, and thinking about what is likely to come from the rest of the block, I have decided to put the time and effort into a control-shell.

Sturtzilla
01-01-2011, 01:25 PM
So what does that wall-o-text mean?

I really appreciate the detailed response. I am excited to see where this deck goes with the upcoming sets. I will test out your above build and see how it pans out.

Clark Kant
01-01-2011, 04:50 PM
Berserk is debatable (I actually think the controllish nature of Rancor fits better than Berserk in this deck) but Invigorate is a MUST PLAY here.

Invigorate protects your creatures from Burn.

Invigorate acts as removal for your opponents threats letting you kill opposing blockers while your creatures live due to the butt of 5.

Invigorate also wins games.

If you splash green, you absolutely have to play Invigorate. The card serves far too many functions, and for absolutely free, not to.

ZeroStride
01-02-2011, 01:13 AM
Invigorate isn't free -- it takes up card slots. It is not a must-play in Infect; it's a must-play in pump-Infect, which is green-heavy, and Forest-heavy. Using Chrome Mox as a mana source decreases the viability of Invigorate, as well.

Stonewood Invocation wins games. It's too high a CMC for the curve of pump-Infect, but it is perfect for this build. It's also the same total cost as Jitte + Equip. We are making holes, not buying drills (see Mike Flores' article on 'thinking about magic').

You fear burn more than Swords, and I don't think that is the best judge of value for Invigorate. In pump-Infect, sure, the utility is nice, and it is perfect for that usage. In this build, the large amount of discard will help offset the impact from any deck which packs burn. Most decks who run burn, primarily Zoo and...well Burn, are also hugely vulnerable to discard because they are not able to protect their hand with counter, and lack the card-draw/cantrips of a control deck; they have no way to generate card-advantage, or card-quality. These decks either use burn to speed-up their clock, or as their entire clock. Burn spent on your critters is burn not spent on your face. This build runs 6 means of card-advantage generation: Hymn and Arena. It's split equally between positive-card-advantage, Phyrexian Arena, and negative-card-advantage, Hymn to Tourach (also I just made up those terms, so if there are actual terms for what I mean, pretend I don't look silly for not knowing them).

Edit: Tweeked build a bit today. MD +1 Forest, -1 Maelstrom Pulse; SB: -1 Pithing Needle, +1 Maelstrom Pulse

Edit 2: -1 Chrome Mox, +1 Swamp; I am fighting with myself over Mox, currently. I'd love to hear some thoughts about Mox. I feel like hands with Mox, given imprintable cards, are superior to hands without Mox...but hands with 2 Mox are terrible. Is three the right number? Two?