Legacy Deckbuilding Challenge - The B/R List

[sdematt]

Hey all.

People many times have commented on a card on the Banned/Restricted list being safe to unban due to power level. Well, I'm curious what decks could you make with now-banned cards, and would they hold up in the format today?

I'd like to propose a deckbuilding challenge by, for a moment, pretending the B/R list was rolled back to 04/05. I'd like to see what some of you can do with the cards still on there, and see if they're decent enough to compete in competitive Legacy in 2010/2011.

First off, some rules:

1) The Banned list for this particular deckbuilding challenge is as follows:

* Amulet of Quoz
* Ancestral Recall
* Balance
* Black Lotus
* Bronze Tablet
*Channel
* Chaos Orb
* Contract from Below
* Darkpact
* Demonic Attorney
* Demonic Consultation
* Demonic Tutor
* Falling Star
* Fastbond
* Flash
* Imperial Seal
* Jeweled Bird
* Mana Crypt
* Mana Vault
* Memory Jar
* Mox Emerald
* Mox Jet
* Mox Pearl
* Mox Ruby
* Mox Sapphire
* Necropotence
* Oath of Druids
* Rebirth
* Shahrazad
* Sol Ring
* Strip Mine
* Tempest Efreet
* Time Vault
* Time Walk
* Timetwister
* Timmerian Fiends
* Tinker
* Tolarian Academy
* Vampiric Tutor
* Wheel of Fortune
* Windfall
* Yawgmoth's Bargain
* Yawgmoth's Will

2) The cards unbanned from the current list are as follows:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Drain
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mystical Tutor
Skullclamp
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon

3) Try to build decks with one card that's on the current banned list to show off its power, or to show its weakness in today's metagame. Some mixing (ex. Library of Alexandria and Mana Drain in a Landstill shell could be built, but I'd rather you stick to just Drain or just Library).

4) Cards removed from the list that we're trying out can be used with 4 copies, as if it would be unrestricted and unbanned.

5) The decks must be designed to be piloted against the Legacy metagame, not between each other. ex. Don't use one banned card to make a deck that hates out another one for that specific purpose.

6) Have fun! This is for brainstorming and showing why certain cards are on the list, and why some should be taken off. When you post a list, do some explaining and tell us about any testing!


Good luck, and have fun!

-Matt

[Sims]

That'd be interesting... MUD/Stax would actually be consistent, I could play Bazaar dredge, Tide with Frantic Search and Spiral? See which is truly faster, Survival-Vine or Food Chain goblins...

This could be a fun test, though I have a feeling it will make me bitter and miss old 1.5 a lot more.

[Koby]

Bazaar really need not apply. LED-Bazaar Dredge will win every turn 1 w/o dedicated hate.

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Fatestitcher

etc

[sdematt]

Then build it and show me. That's what this is all about.

This is also the first of a few planned deckbuilding challenges, I'm hoping. Depending on how this one goes, I'll post another, and I'm thinking more people will find it a tad more recent ;)

-Matt

[wcm8]

Bazaar dredge would be an almost direct port of the vintage list. Most vintage decks pack 6 dedicated slots in their sideboard just for this matchup, and these are decks packing power. It would be format warping to say the least.

Likewise, Mishra's Workshop would enable legacy MUD. Again, it would be format warping and completely ridiculous. No thanks. A black lotus every turn isn't fair in a format like legacy.

[Koby]

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

3 Fatestitcher
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Serum Powder

http://www.classicquarter.com/decks/deckview.asp?DecklistID=2019

[Sims]

Likewise, Mishra's Workshop would enable legacy MUD. Again, it would be format warping and completely ridiculous. No thanks. A black lotus every turn isn't fair in a format like legacy.

Personally, i'd be fine with this. But I loved MUD back in the 1.5 days and would love to crush dreams by being able to play the deck again.

[voltron00x]

This format would be a train wreck, I'm sorry. I can't think of any strategy even remotely close to the power level of 4x Trinisphere, 4x Workshop, or 4x Bazaar, 4x LED.

[sdematt]

I'm not saying all of these are legal at the same time. I'm saying make a deck with one of the cards listed and post a list, to show what cards are weak enough to come off and which are strong enough to stay on. This is what we're trying to see. I mean, Workshop and Trinisphere would be really good, so let's see a decklist. It's fine if it's really good, then we know it needs to stay on the Banned list. I'm more interested in seeing development of weaker cards on the list, or if, for example, Worldgorger combo is still viable. Testing old decks deemed too powerful 5+ years ago against today's metagame, or development of old banned cards with new cards that have come out.

-Matt

[Lemnear]

Wtf?

Vintage MUD w/o moxen? Hardcore!
Vintage Dredge + 4 LED? Insane!

You throw 2 pieces that define vintage into legacy and suggest keeping all Counter-strategies like tinker, will or oath banned?
What do you expect to happen other than those 2 staples dominate everything with ported vintage lists?

There were many threads on the Board about which cards are Save to come off. This one offers nothing new aside from the call to create and post decklists with cards that maybe someday or never become legal. I can't see any use for that...

[(nameless one)]

I'll post the Parfait deck that I stoped working on once I get home. (Land Tax for those you don't know)

I wish we can use two cards from the list. Combo Elves could definitely use Earthcraft and Skullclamp together.

[Fuzzy]

6 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Pendellhaven

8 Llanowar Elves
4 Birchlore Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Wirewood Hivemaster
1 Regal Force
1 Mirror Entity
1 Eternal Witness

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
4 Summonner's Pact

Sideboard:
X Thoughtseize
X Burrenton Forge-Tender

I made this list in 5 minutes, but looks solid for me. Not that good like it was on Extended, but still...

[menace13]

Bazzar is no mere joke. People don't really realize how retarded dumb that card is in dredge. Matt Elias' Turtle Dredge with Leyline of Sanctity makes every hate card aside Lelyines,Jailers and Needles useless(Relic's 2nd activation or Planar Void i guess count too)
You can actually play 4 LEDS and 4 Bazaars in Classic online.

Workshops with 4 3balls is just Good Game sir.
These lists can be directly ported over from Vintage with minimal or no losses in dredge's case.

The rest are very interesting and I will be thinking of what lists i could come up with for Drains+Mind Twists and Clamps weeeeeeeeeeeee.

[(nameless one)]

I am surprised that no one has posted Vengevival yet...

[Eddy Wally]

I am surprised that no one has posted Vengevival yet...

Wouldn't that be a bit cheap and weak in a deckbuilding challenge? The idea is to come up with something new, not copy the deck to beat from five days ago.

[Lemnear]

Maybe cuz vengevival is a joke compared to MUD or Dredge?

[emidln]

2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

SB: 1 City of Traitors
SB: 2 Tundra
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 4 Serenity
SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Edit: improved sideboard. Decks that aren't MUD or Dredge don't matter.

Edit 2: read the rules. I guess if only Mystical is legal, you cut the maindeck MUD hate ala one of these:

Then you end up playing one of these (maindeck changes noted):

Maindeck: -2 Hurkyl's Recall, +2 Thoughtseize (focused on Merfolk)

4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Krosan Grip
1 Reverent Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Maindeck: -2 H.Recall, -2 Ponder, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Sensei's Divining Top (focused on CB)

4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Wipe Away
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

[Gheizen64]

2) The cards unbanned from the current list are as follows:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Drain
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Skullclamp
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon


This actually is pretty interesting, but Workshop and Bazaar doesn't need to be tested. An almost straight port from Vintage is possible. With the difference you can actually play 4 leds in Dredge and 4 Trini in Workshop. And that mean workshop won't ever be unbanned since it's really "unfun" to play against a t1 Trini. Neither will Bazaar with Vintage Dredge being pretty much retarded.

I'll take up the challenge. Trying something with Desire and Clamp probably.

[Gheizen64]

2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

SB: 1 City of Traitors
SB: 2 Tundra
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 4 Serenity
SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Edit: improved sideboard. Decks that aren't MUD or Dredge don't matter.

Edit 2: read the rules. I guess if only Mystical is legal, you cut the maindeck MUD hate ala one of these:

Then you end up playing one of these (maindeck changes noted):

Maindeck: -2 Hurkyl's Recall, +2 Thoughtseize

4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Krosan Grip
1 Reverent Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Maindeck: -2 H.Recall, -2 Ponder, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Wipe Away
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

Mystical tutor is still banned in the hypotetical list.

[Sims]

Wtf?

Vintage MUD w/o moxen? Hardcore!
Vintage Dredge + 4 LED? Insane!

You throw 2 pieces that define vintage into legacy and suggest keeping all Counter-strategies like tinker, will or oath banned?
What do you expect to happen other than those 2 staples dominate everything with ported vintage lists?

There were many threads on the Board about which cards are Save to come off. This one offers nothing new aside from the call to create and post decklists with cards that maybe someday or never become legal. I can't see any use for that...

Actually, i think there is more of a point to this than most others.

Lots of threads that post up are just "would skullclamp be safe? i mean really, who would play skullclamp, elves?" or "who would play Mind's desire, no one, it's safe!"

This, while to you may look like just unbanning 2 of the biggest pieces of vintage, is actually what the format looked like 6 years ago. With a few exceptions, he's giving us the Type 1.5 Banned list, and telling us to make the best decks we can with the current cardpool. That has a lot more interest and merit to me than suggesting 1 card at a time in a vaccum. Because it gives lots of toys, and strategies to go with.

[emidln]

Mystical Tutor was not in the list of banned cards which is why I provided a deck with it.

[sdematt]

I forgot to put in the list of cards you can now use, and it's been corrected.

I understand Bazaar and Workshop are the nuts, I played with them back in 1.5. I just want some decklists including them, and some that aren't necessarily dedicated MUD/Dredge lists, ex. Worldgorger Dragon combo, or something else, like Madness.

Vengevival doesn't really count, nor does Reanimator. You could post them, but that's not really what I was going for, to be quite honest.

I'm liking what I'm seeing. Keep it up!

-Matt

[Sims]

I forgot to put in the list of cards you can now use, and it's been corrected.

I understand Bazaar and Workshop are the nuts, I played with them back in 1.5. I just want some decklists including them, and some that aren't necessarily dedicated MUD/Dredge lists, ex. Worldgorger Dragon combo, or something else, like Madness.

Vengevival doesn't really count, nor does Reanimator. You could post them, but that's not really what I was going for, to be quite honest.

I'm liking what I'm seeing. Keep it up!

-Matt

Worldgorger woul be playable but you'd have to pair it with Bazaar. It looses a lot of punch when you can't combo off with bazaar in play to filter your library for the wincon. you can use Compulsion or something similar but it severely slows the combo down.

With a correct hand and Bazaar, Dragon is a consistant turn 2-3 combo deck.

[emidln]

I realize now that ANT probably isn't what you're looking for in terms of Mystical Tutor abuse, but I bring it up to show that ANT is close to the top of the most powerful decks ever, in any format. It's capable of holding its own against Workshop->Trinisphere and Bazaar of Baghdad, which is really a scary thought. That it can easily morph to address the other most powerful strategies in a foramt (be it Workshop, Bazaar, Counterbalance, etc) is a testament to just how strong the core of 4 Black Lotus, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Vampiric Tutor, 4 Demonic Tutor, 4 Brainstorm, 2 draw15s really is.

[Infinitium]

Not really seeing a lot of innovation as of yet. How about this old gem (now ridiculus):

Owling Mine

Mana
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Serum Powder
4 Grim Monolith

Draw
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Howling Mine
4 Temple Bell

Lock
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

Tech
4 Black Vise
4 Ebony Owl Netsuke
4 Voltaic Key

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Petrified Field
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void

--

Nothing especially fancy except Voltaic Key's rather excellent synergy with Top, Bell, Monolith and the sideboarded Bomb. I guess one could also try to sideboard Chalice of the Void if one is ultra worried about storm combo, but 12 lock pieces + serum powder is already plenty; plus everyone and their mother will sideboard Hurkyl's Recall anyway. Anvil of Bogardan and Font of Mythos are also notable exclusions and could possibly go in instead of Top, but top just looks better overall in a deck not packing Chalice (and once it gets rolling drawing into more cards really shouldn't be an issue).

[emidln]

You are playing 12 lands. In a workshop deck. Without moxen. With spheres.

WTF doesn't doesn't even begin to describe that list.

[Gheizen64]

A port of the Vintage Elf-Clamp, straight in the format:

4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Cloudstone Curio

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel

4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Summoner's Pact

1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Regal force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Summer Bloom
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
6 Forest

Very limited testing but it look pretty busted. Still lose to a random force on Clamp/Curio/Glimpse.

[Infinitium]

You are playing 12 lands. In a workshop deck. Without moxen. With spheres.

WTF doesn't doesn't even begin to describe that list.

The general Idea is to Serum Mulligan into mana (read workshop) and a draw engine and just naturally draw into more gas. I admit it probably loses to Wasteland (and the math behind it is.. rough to say the least) but it's just a rough draft atm.

[Mana Drain]

I just wanna say, fuck yeah. Really interesting and fun idea, although I think you dramatically underestimate the power of Bazaar. If were only allowed to run one of the cards on the second list, I think you should cut out Bazaar and Workshop, because I don't know how much Vintage you've played in the past, but those two cards are pillars of the format for a reason. Also, there's a very valid reason why every single deck in Vintage runs 6-7 pieces of hate for Dredge.

GO GO DRAINSTILL!

EDIT: Shit like this is what I'm talking about.

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Workshop
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [6E] Crystal Vein
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [DS] Serum Powder
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [V09] Trinisphere
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [AN] City in a Bottle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

This deck may not break a format, but is about as unfun as magic possibly gets.

[Zunam]

Mind's Desire

Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [SOM] Island (3)
1 [LND] Swamp

Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [7E] Duress
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [JGC] Mind's Desire
3 [PT] Personal Tutor

Sideboard

SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [R] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [R] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark

This is based on Saito's old GP-ANT list mainly for a strong mana-base to to support the double Blue in Mind's Desire's CC.

In the first testing Mind's Desire has proven to be stronger than Ad Nuseam. It doesn't require a high life total and is almost uncounterable.
It is often casted directly from the player's hand and Personal Tutor helps doing it.

I haven't tested very much and I am not the greatest storm-player either but the Matchup against Merfolk seems to be quite good (8:2 in Mind's Desire's favour in my testing; with 5 pre- and 5 post-board).
Their clock doesn't matter much because you don't need a high life total to go off and they have quite a hard time stopping your from actually casting Mind's Desire (especially with a quite solid mana base when their taxing counter don''t help them a lot).

The Counterbalance-Top Matchup was also quite good. I tested against a Supreme-Blue list (6:4 in Mind's Desire's favour). An early Counterbalance still sucks but especially post-board you have a lot of time to find your freshly boarded bounce/enchantment hate.

If I would have to give a conclusion from my limited testing I would say that Mind's Desire seems to be too strong for the current Meta because two of the harder matchups for storm combo decks (not taking chalice decks into account because I haven't seen chalice decks in the top 8 of bigger tournaments in the last months) seem to be no big problem even for storm-noobs like me.
And then there is not much left that could stop the deck.

[Rico Suave]

Do you really need a decklist to show you how stupid Mishra's Workshop and Trinisphere is?

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Serum Powder

The format won't be casting spells anymore.

[GGoober]

Hey look, it's Vintage MUDStax without power! I think it's a decent list, should be quite strong in this proposed Legacy format.

[Infinitium]

So right now I'm thinking Spring Tide with Mind's Desire over Time Spiral and quite possibly maindecked Hurkyl's Recall. What a delightfully dumb format.

[Koby]

Considering Frantic Search would be legal, it would be used over Time Spiral for storm/mana. Mind's Desire would be the storm kill however.

This format sort of exists: Classic on MTGO...
Restricted List:
Balance
Channel
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Fastbond
Flash
Imperial Seal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Necropotence
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Vault
Tinker
Trinisphere
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will

[SpikeyMikey]

Dragon could hold its own against Dredge and MUD. In a format without Moxen/Lotus etc. MUD is a bit slower and less potent. Dredge is good but Dragon can win turn 1 pretty consistently if they don't have to dodge counters. You only need 3 mana and 1 land to win. I might work up a listing when I get home.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I think anything looking to play desire would want Burning Wish to better abuse Desire.
Something like this:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Mind's Desire
4 Manamorphose
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Something

My aim is to t1 combo to beat everything that isn't blue, vs blue you would bring in blasts and win because Desire>Counterspells

[Hanni]

Blue Workshop Stompy

Lands (24)
4 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland

Creatures (18)
4 Metalworker
4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Faerie Mechanist
2 Steel Hellkite

Spells (18)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Sphere of Resistance

[sdematt]

I know Bazaar and Shop are busted, I've played Vintage and 1.5 when they were legal. This thread is not only to prove a card isn't warranted to be on the banned list, it's also to prove some deserve their place. I'm liking the decks so far, but only the most popular ones seem to be getting the attention. No love for Hermit Druid, Recruiter, Library?


-Matt

[(nameless one)]

I'll post the Parfait deck that I stoped working on once I get home. (Land Tax for those you don't know)

I'm still at work but I just remembered this list from Stephen Menendian from his article just before Mystical Tutor got banned:


Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack
1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Enchantments
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Mesa

Instants
4 Abeyance
3 Argivian Find
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

Basic Lands
11 Plains

Lands
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Wasteland


The version I'm working on uses Armageddon as a way to abuse Land Tax.

I remember a few people working on the same concept. Dachmai claimed that he has a broken list featuring Land Tax from the B/R thread I started just before the recent updates.

[emidln]

Burn with Black Vise, SDT, and fetches that gets to run Shrapnel Blast as a bonus is pretty hot. 4-5 damage for 1 mana is all sorts of hot. What's more, you can probably justify the white splash into Steppe Lynx since your'e already running 12-14 fetches and you get a bonus disenchant effect. Mmm, value.

[menace13]

EarthClamp Combo Elves from Classic Online was a good deck online before Vintage cards changed the format. This list would consistantly pull out wins against Legacy decks like Zoo,Gobs,Merf. It plays decently vs FoWs since Earthcraft is a untap and kill combo, Clamp refuels your entire hand for additional attempts/answers and Glimpse to go off. Surprisingly resiliant and would be the only elf deck i would even want to play.

14Forest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Forest)
14 Lands

2Birchlore Rangers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Birchlore Rangers)
1Elvish Spirit Guide (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Elvish Spirit Guide)
4Elvish Visionary (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Elvish Visionary)
3Essence Warden (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Essence Warden)
4Fyndhorn Elves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Fyndhorn Elves)
2Heritage Druid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Heritage Druid)
4Llanowar Elves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Llanowar Elves)
4Nettle Sentinel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Nettle Sentinel)
3Wirewood Hivemaster (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Wirewood Hivemaster)
4Wirewood Symbiote (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Wirewood Symbiote)
31 Creatures

1Brain Freeze (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Brain Freeze)
4Earthcraft (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Earthcraft)
4Glimpse of Nature (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Glimpse of Nature)
4Skullclamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Skullclamp)
2Squirrel Nest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Squirrel Nest)
15 spells

[dahcmai]

Sounds fun, I'll give it a shot.


First up, Land Tax. I actually planned on playing this anyway if they give it back. Needs a couple of tops though.

RW Control (A slight adjustment to this) http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19022-pink-hammer-control



4 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
3 Plateau
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Plains
4 Mountains
3 Koth
3 Elspeth
1 Chandra Nalaar
2 Ajani Vengeant
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path To Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Rolling Earthquake
4 Humility
3 Pithing Needle
4 Scroll rack
4 Land Tax



That deck posted in the New and Development is decent. It owns aggro pretty well obviously and can keep up with Landstill oddly enough due to the planeswalkers. It needed some extra way to sort out it's cards better and Land Tax gives the Scroll Rack engine new life in planeswalkers. Plus, path is just sick with Land Tax. Go ahead go get your land. No? awwww. I think it would actually be worth playing and could keep up with just about everything aside from Combo in this form. Of course you get a heck of a board for those combo matches if you keep up with everything well maindeck. Pyroblasts, Leylines, and Orim's Chants? That's gonna hurt.


Skullclamp (I actually entered this in a Vintage tournament once and got 2nd place because people didn't think it could go nuts on them. Dead serious) Probably better stuff printed since this was new though.

3 Tropical Island
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Fastbond
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Root Maze
1 Anger
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Intruder Alarm
4 Skullclamp
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Timberwatch Elf
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves


It kind of doesn't count since I had a Fastbond and Survival in there, but meh, you get the idea, it didn't really need them.



Earthcraft -

This is a deck I had in an old file from it seems the time when Earthcraft was still in Legacy. The file was last accessed in 2006 so I assume it's from around that time. A little updating and this could be the new Enchantress easily.

4 Arg. Enchantress
4 Verd. Encantress
4 Birds
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Squirrel Nest
4 Exploration
4 Wild Growth
4 Fertile Ground
4 Earthcraft
2 Goblin Bombardement
1 Kaerveks Torch
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
18 Forest


Hermit Druid -

I went hunting an old Hermit Druid deck since i had to play against that crap at one time and wanted to list him so people could see how this guy does NOT need to come back to Legacy. Couldn't find it so I looked around for the original and found some pretty impressive lists already out there. Check this one out I found over on Wizards site.

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

2 Anger
2 Brawn
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Hermit Druid
4 Krosan Cloudscraper
4 Narcomoeba
2 Sutured Ghoul

1 Ancient Grudge
4 Brainstorm
2 Dread Return
2 Flaring Pain
1 Lotus Petal
4 Pact of Negation
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Worldly Tutor


Truly nasty stuff. I wouldn't want to have to play against that.




Lastly, I just found this one in my old files and had to laugh as I read it. Enjoy. I destroyed some poor saps at a tournament at one time with this one. They never knew what hit them. Urza's Block was so busted. Makes you feel sorry for people who had to play against me back then. This is why the rest of that stuff stays on the list. lol

4 Defense Grid
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
4 Memory Jar
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Megrim
4 Vampiric Tutor
2 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Tinker
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Underground River
4 Underground Sea


Not sure what format this was at the time. Extended didn't exist yet as far as I know and it's not Vintage. 1.5 early days maybe?

[from Cairo]

Lastly, I just found this one in my old files and had to laugh as I read it. Enjoy. I destroyed some poor saps at a tournament at one time with this one. They never knew what hit them. Urza's Block was so busted. Makes you feel sorry for people who had to play against me back then. This is why the rest of that stuff stays on the list. lol

4 Defense Grid
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
4 Memory Jar
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
1 Megrim
4 Vampiric Tutor
2 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Tinker
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Underground River
4 Underground Sea


Oh, one last thing, take another look at that deck. Standard legal. Yes, truly.

When? LED, Mana Vault, Gemstone Mine, Brainstorm and Underground Sea weren't Legal for Tempest/6th/Urza Standard. Unless that was a typo and you meant Extended Legal - which is probably the case w/o doing a bunch of looking into it.

There was a Standard version of the deck too, as I remember, I think it ran different artifact accelleration - Voltaic Key and Grim Monolith.

[emidln]

Black Vise Sligh

4 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring

This doesn't have anything revolutionary, minus a 5 damage for 1 mana investment deal paired with a 4-8 damage for 1 mana investment deal. The sideboard that can handle most issues that the deck might run into.

[Lollythecat1990]

Surely if thopters was good enough for legacy (?), thopters plus infinite squirrels (turn 4) must be worth a look?

4 force
4 daze
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 preordain
4 enlightened tutor
2 StP
3 PtE
2 Stoneforge mystic
2 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
2 regrowth
1 eternal witness
1 earthcraft
1 squirrel nest
3 tropical island
3 tundra
3 island
2 forest
1 plains
3 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
2 windswept heath

[Mana Drain]

I know Bazaar and Shop are busted, I've played Vintage and 1.5 when they were legal. This thread is not only to prove a card isn't warranted to be on the banned list, it's also to prove some deserve their place. I'm liking the decks so far, but only the most popular ones seem to be getting the attention. No love for Hermit Druid, Recruiter, Library?


-Matt

The reason cards like Druid, Recruiter, Tax, and Earthcraft are getting no attention is because they are nowhere near the power-level of Bazaar, Shop, and Desire. It's like pitting Extended decks against Legacy decks: There's no competition. As for Library, 4x Library Ux Control could totally compete in a Tier 1 Legacy metagame, but not in one with the aforementioned, and the king of "Screw Control" cards, Black Vise.

For those who love degenerate decks:

"Mull to 3, Win on Turn 2"

4 Bazaar
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Fatesticher
4 Narc
4 Grave Troll
4 Stink
4 Thug
4 Bloodghast
2 Sharum the Hedgemon

4 Serum Powder
4 LED
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge
2 Dread Return
1 Altar of Dementia

I literally built this deck in 3 minutes. I goldfished about 12-14 games, and won on the second turn 7 times, the third turn twice, the FIRST TURN once (LED, Coliseum, Breakthrough, Fatesticher = insanity), and mulled to oblivion twice. It's just not a fair fight for great, but not insane cards like Earthcraft and Hermit Druid.

[Oiolosse]

I just wanna say, fuck yeah. Really interesting and fun idea, although I think you dramatically underestimate the power of Bazaar. If were only allowed to run one of the cards on the second list, I think you should cut out Bazaar and Workshop, because I don't know how much Vintage you've played in the past, but those two cards are pillars of the format for a reason. Also, there's a very valid reason why every single deck in Vintage runs 6-7 pieces of hate for Dredge.

GO GO DRAINSTILL!

EDIT: Shit like this is what I'm talking about.

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Workshop
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [6E] Crystal Vein
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [DS] Serum Powder
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [V09] Trinisphere
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [AN] City in a Bottle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

This deck may not break a format, but is about as unfun as magic possibly gets.

Not to call you out particularly but I find it funny how people poke fun at Stax variants when in fact it is nearest to being the most broken if given just a couple more cards! I personally love this style of play (I'm part asshole) but the games just take so long to complete, esp. when your opponent refuses to concede.

[menace13]

The reason cards like Druid, Recruiter, Tax, and Earthcraft are getting no attention is because they are nowhere near the power-level of Bazaar, Shop, and Desire. It's like pitting Extended decks against Legacy decks: There's no competition. As for Library, 4x Library Ux Control could totally compete in a Tier 1 Legacy metagame, but not in one with the aforementioned, and the king of "Screw Control" cards, Black Vise.

For those who love degenerate decks:

"Mull to 3, Win on Turn 2"

4 Bazaar
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Fatesticher
4 Narc
4 Grave Troll
4 Stink
4 Thug
4 Bloodghast
2 Sharum the Hedgemon

4 Serum Powder
4 LED
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge
2 Dread Return
1 Altar of Dementia

I literally built this deck in 3 minutes. I goldfished about 12-14 games, and won on the second turn 7 times, the third turn twice, the FIRST TURN once (LED, Coliseum, Breakthrough, Fatesticher = insanity), and mulled to oblivion twice. It's just not a fair fight for great, but not insane cards like Earthcraft and Hermit Druid.

Fun deck the Altar is there form milling opps when they have Ensnaring Bridge and Portal for Platinum Angels.
IIRC there is Meadberts Sharuum Dredge from TMD thread on Bazaar, that resembles this built a while ago and even placed somewhere..

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not to call you out particularly but I find it funny how people poke fun at Stax variants when in fact it is nearest to being the most broken if given just a couple more cards! I personally love this style of play (I'm part asshole) but the games just take so long to complete, esp. when your opponent refuses to concede.

Yeah, I can't believe people make fun of Stax when all it needs is a land that is practically a reusable Black Lotus to be broken...

[Waikiki]

where is the 4 library 4 drain control deck?

[sdematt]

I'm not putting Bazaar Dredge against Hermit Druid, we're trying them all separately. I'm saying in the first post that assume you're evolving each deck separately, and don't choose not to make a deck because it'll suck against another innovation. Build each deck in a vacuum, is what I'm saying. Again, I think we understand Bazaar and Workshop are good, so build everything else anyway.

@ Mana Drain

I didn't realize I'd been sigged, thanks! :D

-Matt

[94teen]

So, this seems like a fun idea. Here's my take on a Library of Alexandria deck that isn't blue-based. It's also a mishmash of pet decks that aren't very good, but it seems like an interesting idea, at the least. Generic idea is Library of Alexandria + Garruk Wildspeaker. Here's the draft decklist off the top of my head:


5 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Library of Alexandria
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Rishadan Port
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Vesuva
1 Blinkmoth Well
1 Centaur Garden
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Vesuva

1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sylvan Library
2 Exploration
3 Crop Rotation
3 Winter Orb
3 Trinisphere
1 Words of Wilding
1 Life from the Loam
1 Azusa, Lost but Seekng/Terravore


So, ignoring the fact that your mana base is the most expensive thing in the world, I'm pretty excited about this list. You've got a few things going on here that are pretty interesting, the first of which is Library + Garruk. Library is an uncounterable draw engine, which most stax-style decks are severely lacking, and Garruk lets that go even more broken, especially with multiple libraries.

Once you're abusing garruk and library, Winter Orb seems like a reasonable next step, and seems like it gives you better game against control decks and combo decks, since it's a faster lock piece. Ports + Garruk can slowly lock players down under a WOrb, and Blinkmoth Well can make it one sided with enough mana. Besdes, if we're each untapping one land per turn, and my land is Library, I'd be feeling pretty good about how that game is going to end up.

The crop rotation toolbox is something that I've always really liked. It's a great response to Wasteland, especially if they try to waste a library or some such. Tutor up another and proceed to profit? It also gives you a lot of flexibility, and lets you cut down on the number of slots devoted to Maze of Iths and whatnot, while increasing the library count, and making it easier to find multiples of Wasteland or library. Also, 4 copies of tabernacle/glacial chasm/other good lands without actually having to play 4 copies is really sweet.

Words of Wilding and Garruk both play nicely with Smokestack, as does exploration once you've got a crucible/LftL going. Ports seem really good once you've started locking people down with Tabernacle/WOrb, but not good enough to warrant a full set of them, but I can imagine wanting to draw into them naturally once in awhile, hence the two.

The centaur garden is pretty janky, but it's there to let you win in a reasonable amount of time. Green doesn't have an armageddon (that I know of) to lock up the game, so if you've got an exploration/crucible, you can speed up your clock pretty well by cycling through Gardens. That's why Azusa is a potential win-con. It plays nicely with Crucible/Wasteland tricks, lets you keep your hand size around 7 with library, and kills out of nowhere with Centaur Garden tricks.

Even if the deck isn't very good, it does a lot of my favorite things, and has a lot of interesting synergies. That said, while I'm sure that this has some pieces of what would be THE library deck if it were unbanned, I'm pretty sure you could do things significantly more broken than what this list is capable of.

[Tourach]

Here's a try for Gush in a tempo shell, not necessarily with the most broken applications of Gush but strong to my mind.


4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Gush
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Engineered Explosives

[Bahamuth]

Hey emidln, shouldn't you be posting some Doomsday list with 4 Gush? I imagine that would be pretty damn good.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Hey emidln, shouldn't you be posting some Doomsday list with 4 Gush? I imagine that would be pretty damn good.

What is the pile though? Meditate digs too deep, and Ideas requires a lot of floating mana. Maybe cantrips into something?

[Bahamuth]

What is the pile though? Meditate digs too deep, and Ideas requires a lot of floating mana. Maybe cantrips into something?

There's a ton of different situations to consider. If you have Gush in hand, you're definitely going to do Gush into Brainstorm, because you can always put the 2 islands you return back on top with it. Something like Brainstorm Petal Petal Ritual Tendrils wins for 1 mana of any colour. You might be able to do better than that though.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

There's a ton of different situations to consider. If you have Gush in hand, you're definitely going to do Gush into Brainstorm, because you can always put the 2 islands you return back on top with it. Something like Brainstorm Petal Petal Ritual Tendrils wins for 1 mana of any colour. You might be able to do better than that though.

I had forgotten about the islands making BS possible with no starting cards. So yeah for BBBU you get minimum 6 storm + tendrils.

BBBUU and gush gets you IU,LED,LED,LED,Wish for 7 + tendrils

So yeah, gush seems pretty freakin good.

Rough list, far far from optimized

4 Delta
4 Tarn
4 Sea
1 Watery Grave
3 Island
4 Doomsday
4 Personal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Gush
4 LED
4 Brainstorm
1 Tendrils
1 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lotus Petal
4 SDT/Ponder

[Bahamuth]

Honestly, although I'm not sure on exactly what piles are possible with Gush, I imagine not running LED could be a real option. 4 Duress 4 FoW would be a pretty good basis for the deck. There might be problems with the amount of storm you can make if you use my pile (which wins for BBB1 btw, not BBBU).

[(nameless one)]

This might not sound original but wheres the Tide lists that run Frantic Search?

[emidln]

I won't be posting a Doomsday list. You can speculate that I don't have one, it sucks, whatever, but I believe there is a non-zero chance that it comes off at some point.

I will say that the deck is loaded with blue cantrips such that the most common pile in testing is this:

Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
Cantrip
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Burning Wish

This costs BBBU with Gush in hand and needs any one of those to be in your hand. This is sorta spicy since it works on turn 2 off land drop, rit, doomsday, gush.

[Tammit67]

This might not sound original but wheres the Tide lists that run Frantic Search?

I was thinking something like:

7 fetch
11 islands
4 brainstorm
4 high tide
4 impulse
4 frantic search
4 reset
3 turnabout
3 opt
2 cunning wish
4 force of will
3 meditate
2 twincast
2 remand
2 repeal
1 Brain freeze

Which would be a rough sketch. It would replace peer through depths here. Expect the 4th meditate/turnabout in the board, along with the rest of the usual bullets. Twincast has always served me well, though it is probably the weakest cards in there. Getting there comfortable on turn 4, or in a rush on turn 3 should be decent. A splash is more than doable. Any thoughts? I plan to bring a version of solidarity to unpowered vintage, so any feedback would be appreciated

[voltron00x]

I plan to bring a version of solidarity to unpowered vintage, so any feedback would be appreciated

This is not a good idea, sir. Which Vintage are you talking about? PM here or FB or something, let's chat.

[Tammit67]

"I plan to bring a version of solidarity to unpowered vintage, so any feedback would be appreciated"

This is not a good idea, sir.

Lol, i know. It would be a free event, maybe a dozen people. It is more of a thought exercise if I ever do attend the vintage up by Lehigh.

Edit: Maybe something like this for Desire?


4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Lion’s eye diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Lim-dul's vault
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 preordain
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 duress
2 chain of vapor
4 Mind's Desire
2 Ill-gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of agony

[voltron00x]

A 4x Mind's Desire deck can and would play Force of Will, fwiw.

EDIT: I mean... I think it would, wouldn't it?

[Tammit67]

A 4x Mind's Desire deck can and would play Force of Will, fwiw.

EDIT: I mean... I think it would, wouldn't it?

I only really don't want stifle/CB to be used against me, and I'm of the mindset a missed cantrip is huge in a deck with lower threat density unlike TES, and needs every spell it can get. Just my thoughts.

If you can fit it in, by all means go for it.

[Pastorofmuppets]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou

4 Wu Spy
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Mystical Tutor
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Read the Runes
4 Entomb
1 Bridge from Below
4 Orim's Chant
4 Animate Dead
4 Dance of the Dead
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Spell Pierce
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void

It's time for another riveting game of, How Does that Deck Win?

[emidln]

I like how you managed to add Pyroblast and Engineered Plague to the list of things Dragon can lose to.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I like how you managed to add Pyroblast and Engineered Plague to the list of things Dragon can lose to.

You're welcome.
Oh, and you forgot Shriekmaw and Cursecatcher.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This was the sickest combo list I ever tested. I made it to a top 4 split 3/4 times I brought it to my local card shop. No joke, this thing is a savage monster and I would still be playing it today were it not for the bannings.

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Mystical Tutor
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
2 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Emrakul

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Shelldock

Sideboard

3 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bayou

Wish Targets
1 DD
1 Tendrils
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Deathmark

I would certainly modify the SB but aside from that, this deck was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO nasty. It killed Reanimator and CB like they were nothing. How I loved playing this, it really was that dominant, so short lived :(

[Tammit67]

It's time for another riveting game of, How Does that Deck Win?

Seems very convoluted, unless I'm missing it.

[emidln]

It's pretty easy for the dragon deck (well, not easy to assemble, but easy to understand). You setup dragon + reanimate effect with either Wu Spy or Read the Runes. If you have Wu Spy, you just immediately mill out your opponent. If not, you can make enough mana to draw your deck and then discard everything but a Wu Spy and a reanimation effect. Then you combo out as normal. I'm not entirely sure what the Bridge and FKZ are there for, but if I had to guess, it's either because he didn't think it through (as proven by his inclusion of only 1 Dragon) or is just fucking with you.

[Sims]

It's pretty easy for the dragon deck (well, not easy to assemble, but easy to understand). You setup dragon + reanimate effect with either Wu Spy or Read the Runes. If you have Wu Spy, you just immediately mill out your opponent. If not, you can make enough mana to draw your deck and then discard everything but a Wu Spy and a reanimation effect. Then you combo out as normal. I'm not entirely sure what the Bridge and FKZ are there for, but if I had to guess, it's either because he didn't think it through (as proven by his inclusion of only 1 Dragon) or is just fucking with you.

Probably the latter... Say you have the bridge in the yard and you start the loop

Animate -> Dragon
Dragon enters play, removes all perms from game
State based -> dragon dies...

Can you stack it so the bridge trigger goes on the stack before the Leaves play trigger? If so, you have a loop to make infinite zombies. Just stack the bridge trigger on the bottom, leaves play ability ontop. Leaves play resolves, animate enters the battlefield returning the dragon (bridge still on stack), dragon enters play.. repeat the loops +1 bridge trigger for each time. However, even if that works and you can make a horde of zombies, when you finally change targets to the FKZ, won't it enter the battlefield and have it's ETB trigger go off before you even have a chance to resolve your stack of bridge triggers?



edit: Also, why combo off with Wu Spy instead of using the old tried and true method of generating an exceedingly large (but finite) sum of mana and bringing back Laquatus to dump their yard? Or if you fear Emrakul but don't expect an E.Plague, Sliver Queen?

[sunshine]

My guess is he was thinking... First mill yourself, then let dragon do his dance a bunch of times, then reanimate zealot and swing with some hasty tokens. I'm guessing he wanted to have a plan other than sit on his thumbs for fifty minutes against Emrakul.

As long as the dragon leaves play triggers get stacked on top of the bridge triggers you can build up a whole bunch of bridge triggers under all the dragon shenanigans.

Edit: ninjaed. As far as I can see you do need a second reanimation effect for the zealot. Which I suppose you could draw using a Brainstorm after the spy whittles down your library.

[emidln]

I'd probably use a combination of Wu Spy, Read the Runes, and Cunning Wish to ensure I always had a way to either mill myself into Witness->Dance->Dragon to cast a bunch of Duress followed by Cunning Wish->Stroke. At least with Wu Spy, you can bypass Mindbreak Trap with this (first spell of hte turn is reanimate effect, followed by reanimate effect, followed by duress until the Dragon play gets bored....).

[Tammit67]

It's pretty easy for the dragon deck (well, not easy to assemble, but easy to understand). You setup dragon + reanimate effect with either Wu Spy or Read the Runes. If you have Wu Spy, you just immediately mill out your opponent. If not, you can make enough mana to draw your deck and then discard everything but a Wu Spy and a reanimation effect. Then you combo out as normal. I'm not entirely sure what the Bridge and FKZ are there for, but if I had to guess, it's either because he didn't think it through (as proven by his inclusion of only 1 Dragon) or is just fucking with you.

Yeah I saw that, including the token trigger stacking. The convoluted comment was more in the getting it to work consistantly, which seems a mess.

[median]

Edit: Maybe something like this for Desire?


4 Polluted delta
4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
3 orim's chant
1 silence
4 chrome mox
4 lion's eye diamond
4 ponder
4 rite of flame
1 ad nauseam
4 brainstorm
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 duress
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
//side
1 minds desire
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 I'll-gotten gains


fixed

[Tammit67]

fixed

Sure it is faster, but a one-of in the board is hardly showing what the card can do

[median]

I was making a joke.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I'd probably use a combination of Wu Spy, Read the Runes, and Cunning Wish to ensure I always had a way to either mill myself into Witness->Dance->Dragon to cast a bunch of Duress followed by Cunning Wish->Stroke. At least with Wu Spy, you can bypass Mindbreak Trap with this (first spell of hte turn is reanimate effect, followed by reanimate effect, followed by duress until the Dragon play gets bored....).

Yeah, that hit me. Er, I knew there was a reason I was running a singleton Dread Return at one point.
whatever. -1 Dance of the Dead, +1 Dread Return

[J.V.]

Lands:14
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

Noncreature Spells:46
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Mind's Desire
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains

Sideboard:
4 Spell Pierce
2 Duress
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
1 Deathmark
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Darkblast
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Ravenous Trap

[Waikiki]

I think ur deck would also have to think about the meta. Which I think makes you lose to workshop. Dont know how broken they tend to get without moxen tho.

[Rico Suave]

You don't need Moxen when you have Workshop and Trinisphere.

[emidln]

You don't need Moxen when you have Workshop and Trinisphere.

I had written a couple thousand words on how Workshop could be legalized safely, but really, these same arguments could apply to things like Flash, Black Lotus, and Yawgmoth's Will. The crux of the matter is that a Workshop deck in legacy looks like this:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Artifact land of a color of your choice
4 basic/dual land/specialty of a color of your choice

4 Mox Diamond

4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Tangle Wire
8 slots to play with:

Suggestions include (you either want more attackers or crucible to negate the drawback of Smokestack):

Juggernaut (or Precursor Golem) + stall effects (Orb of Dreams + Ghost Quarter in the land slots)
Metaworker/Sundering Titan/Karn
Goblin Welder / Viashino Heretic/Crucible (might as well metagame for the mirror)
Swords to Plowshares / Suppression Field / Crucible
Crop Rotation / Crucible of Worlds / small toolbox

There might be better suggestions, but if Metalworker/Titan in that above shell is the worst of the decks, your metagame is in serious trouble. Nobody wants to play against this for 7+ rounds every event. Sure, we can maindeck H.Recall (not that it's particularly effective if they have a good start), play some creatures (but theirs are better, and faster), and maybe counter some stuff (nothing stopping them from extra threats like Welder) but your best strategy is going to be take that above core and modify for the mirror as much as possible. Steel Hellkites, Viashino Heretics, Goblin Welders, and Duplicants will all be pretty strong.

For those considering that Workshops might not be able to do stuff without moxen, consider this:

you have the following reasonable ways to hit 3 mana turn 1:

1 of 4 Workshop
1 of 8 double lands + 1 of Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox/SSG (I'm not sure if you want extra lands or something like SSG/ESG tbh and your mox choice heavily depends on that)
1 of 8 double lands + 1 of 4 Grim Monolith
1 other land + 1 of Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox/SSG + 1 of 4 Grim Monolith

(This was written assuming one of two valid builds looks more like Dragon Stompy with Chrome Mox/SSG/ESG).

[sdematt]

You don't have to think about Meta. Workshop wouldn't be facing Mind's Desire, per say. When designing the deck, design it for the Legacy metagame as is, with the only card unbanned being the one you're trying to break. You're trying to prove whether or not the cards you are using in your deck are safe to unban in the current Legacy metagame.

Mind you, I'm not saying you shouldn't consider this when testing your deck against other deckbuilding challenge decks, but don't alter your maindeck just to beat Workshop, we're trying to see how it is against Legacy now (which is more important).

Happy New Year!

-Matt

[Wanderlust]

I know it is on sdematt's banned list, but I would love to see a deck that breaks Fastbond. 43 Lands would probably use it in place of Mox Diamond, but that hardly seems to fix any of the deck's bad matchups. Scapeshift Combo could make brutal use of it, but would it be broken?

[Infinitium]

It would be better in eternal garden style decks. Zuran Orb comes to mind. That + fetchlands + crucible measn you can essentially empty your deck of lands, or draw you deck with Horizon Canopy. Seems busted enough.

[MattH]

It would be better in eternal garden style decks. Zuran Orb comes to mind. That + fetchlands + crucible measn you can essentially empty your deck of lands, or draw you deck with Horizon Canopy. Seems busted enough.

Or Ghost Quarter someone entirely out of lands.

[sdematt]

Fastbond + Crucible + Zuran Orb = Infinite Life

I could easily think of a 43-Lands like shell, but with 4 Fastbond, Manabond, Exploration, Englightened Tutor, Crucible, etc. I'm thinking it would be very fun to play. Horn of Greed would also be pretty fun here :D

Any more innovation? I plan on posting the next challenge sometime next week. It's based on a pretty recent change to the metagame, but I want it all in one place, so to speak. Can you take a guess what it is? (Don't clutter the thread with guesses, it's rhetorical, just innovate on the B/R list :P)

-Matt

[MattH]

I'm guessing Frantic Search?

Also, no. The way to break Fastbond would be in a High Tide shell, not this Zuran Orb crap.

[sdematt]

Mine was just a fun suggestion :D

-Matt

[Wanderlust]

The way to break Fastbond would be in a High Tide shell

QFT. In a Spring Tide shell, it both speeds up the deck and makes the combo more consistent. Very high potential for broken.

[Gheizen64]

This topic is interesting so i'm resurrecting it to post a couple lists. I think that playtesting some lists is the best argument you can make for unbanning cards. I'm trying to break Mana Vault as of now. This is what my Meandeck MUD Vault look:

Mana: 35 cards, 18 lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

3 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
4 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker

Spells: 25
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wurmcoil Engine


The deck is fun but lose and has a lot of explosive draws but still lose more than it win against basically everything (Zoo, Standstill, Bant). Dunno, i'm probably playing a bad list since it should be at least better than normal Meandeck MUD and that placed somewhere, or maybe the deck just isn't placed nicely as before.

Trying Belcher with Vault:

1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Mana Vault
4 Burning Wish -> tutor for EtW

Still bad, lose from everything that has blue in it and lose from a lot of bad hands too. EtW remain also easy to counter (EE, Pernicious, lifelink creatures etc...).

Not trying AnT or TES since i'd have to completely redesign those. Both run literally no colorless mana sinks, so Vault is shit in them in their currents form.

I'm trying also Black Vise but i can't find a shell that make those decents. Too easy to counter and too bad past t1.

EDIT: saw Emildin RW Vise Burn list on page 3, want to try it.

[emidln]

To "redesign" ANT you cut Cabal Ritual for Mana Vault. Now you can play turn 1 Vault and cast turn 2 Ad Nauseam. This sorta lends itself to 2-3 Ad Naus since you'll have it more often. If you go to 2 Ad Naus you need 1-2 Chrome Mox. If you run up to 3, you'll probably want at least 3 (maybe 4). Unsure where the sweet spot would be, except I'm positive that casting turn 2 Ad Naus with one acceleration is fucking awesome.

I'm pretty sure you can't reasonably unban this.

About no sinks:

IT -> Ad Naus requires 3 colorless. Ad Naus requires 2 colorless.

[Gheizen64]

Something like this?

3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mana Vault
2 Chrome Mox

Yeah tested it and it's pretty insane against anything that isn't Standstill. I overestimated the problem of running multiple AdN, it's not a big deal when you can go off consistently a turn sooner. Dunno why Vintage decks debate on this against Cabal, here it's clearly better.

Tip on how to make a Vise list actually good?

[(nameless one)]

I dont think Meandeck MUD needs Mana Vault. Have you ever playtested Memory Jar with Welder MUD? It's amazing. If you play it in casual circles, everyone will love you.

[MDB]

Black Vise (GobboBurn aka Kuldotha Pimp)

4 Black Vise
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Shrapnel Blast

4 Memnite
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kuldotha Rebirth
4 Signal Pest
4 Goblin Bushwhacker

4 Mox Opal
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
8 Mountain

Pretty sketchy list, I admit. Note the absence of tha bolt. hah.
Black Vise is pretty safe to unban imho... this is all the "innovation" I could come up with. The rest on the unban-list are far more scarier.

[evanmartyr]

I'm guessing Frantic Search?

Also, no. The way to break Fastbond would be in a High Tide shell, not this Zuran Orb crap.

Ugh. Could you imagine a High Tide build with Fastbond, Frantic Search, and Gush?

Assuming you have Fastbond hit play turn 1, how could you NOT just win there?

[Ecoris]

Piranha Marsh in Dragon. Seriously.

[The Treefolk Master]

Fastbond + Crucible + Zuran Orb = Infinite Life

I could easily think of a 43-Lands like shell, but with 4 Fastbond, Manabond, Exploration, Englightened Tutor, Crucible, etc. I'm thinking it would be very fun to play. Horn of Greed would also be pretty fun here :D

Any more innovation? I plan on posting the next challenge sometime next week. It's based on a pretty recent change to the metagame, but I want it all in one place, so to speak. Can you take a guess what it is? (Don't clutter the thread with guesses, it's rhetorical, just innovate on the B/R list :P)

-Matt

Most efficient win Condition in lands:

E. Tutor for Fast Bond, play it. E. Tutor for Crucible, play it. Cast Intuition for Piranha Marsh, Wasteland, Zuran Orb. Use the phrase "These are not the droids you're looking for" against your opponent, so that they give you Orb with Intuition. Cast Zuran Orb, gain infinite life. Play Piranha Marsh, bleed you opponent, kill it with Wasteland, play Piranha Marsh, bleed you opponent, rinse and repeat.

[(nameless one)]

I'll post the Parfait deck that I stoped working on once I get home. (Land Tax for those you don't know)



It's funny because I haven't really posted on this. This is my "casual" version:

Parfait


12 Plains
4 Crystal Vein
3 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mistveil Plains

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Armageddon
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Wrath of God

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Luminarch Ascension



It's still a rough list since I rarely play it against Legacy decks. Could definitely use some refining.

[bruizar]

I had written a couple thousand words on how Workshop could be legalized safely, but really, these same arguments could apply to things like Flash, Black Lotus, and Yawgmoth's Will. The crux of the matter is that a Workshop deck in legacy looks like this:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Artifact land of a color of your choice
4 basic/dual land/specialty of a color of your choice

4 Mox Diamond

4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Tangle Wire
8 slots to play with:


Needs more spheres. You're not gonna get a turn 1 trinisphere every game. Also, where's crucible?

[Gheizen64]

My personal "FUCK U BLUE!" With Vise, it's ol' straight Vise Burn:

Mana:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
6 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port

Spells:
4 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Shrapnel Blast
4 Fireblast
4 Chain Lightning
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Fork
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide


EDIT: creatures in sideboard and burn in main for better synergies . Too much maindeck removals and creatures with big butts in legacy. That fork is placeholder, but i'm liking double PoP or double blast or double Shrapnel.

[Gheizen64]

First attempt at broking Channel:

4 Serum Powder
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Emrakul, the Aeon Torn
4 Lich's Mirror
4 Pact of Negation
4 Guttural Response
4 Chrome Mox
4 Channel
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
3 Mental Misstep
1 Taiga

Lol at this. But it's probably possible to do better, making just an Eldrazi.dec without belcher shell, with a blue shell and added protection/library manipulation, slower but unstoppable. Channel into lich mirror is so lol it's like playing Academy all over again, +30 mana +7 cards.

[sdematt]

I'll have to start a new challenge soon, I just haven't had the time :(

-Matt

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm actually tickled by people finding a reason to play Lich's Mirror. Cavius was right all along.

What's the goldfish like?

[Gheizen64]

Blindly goldfishing and mulliganing aggressively (u can win on 4 cards hand, 2mana, channel, win condition), i won 9 games on 20 on T1, about one third of them i had MM or Pact backup.

The list is still rough. For example, SSG should be Green Pacts (green mana >>>>> Red mana in that deck, also imprint to mox for G). Green pact with mirror into play is also a decent T1 play if you don't have channel to kill yourself (it's rare to be able to play Lich without channel, but possible). Also i'm finding tinder walls bad, i never use the red mana. There's some work to do on it, but channel in starting hand is almost always a win T1.

[lorddotm]

Blindly goldfishing and mulliganing aggressively (u can win on 4 cards hand, 2mana, channel, win condition), i won 9 games on 20 on T1, about one third of them i had MM or Pact backup.

The list is still rough. For example, SSG should be Green Pacts (green mana >>>>> Red mana in that deck, also imprint to mox for G). Green pact with mirror into play is also a decent T1 play if you don't have channel to kill yourself (it's rare to be able to play Lich without channel, but possible). Also i'm finding tinder walls bad, i never use the red mana. There's some work to do on it, but channel in starting hand is almost always a win T1.

So your (no offense) shitty list is good enough to have turn 1 kills every time you have Channel in hand? That screams dangerous to me.

[rufus]

The list is still rough. For example, SSG should be Green Pacts (green mana >>>>> Red mana in that deck, also imprint to mox for G). Green pact with mirror into play is also a decent T1 play if you don't have channel to kill yourself (it's rare to be able to play Lich without channel, but possible). Also i'm finding tinder walls bad, i never use the red mana. There's some work to do on it, but channel in starting hand is almost always a win T1.

Does it make sense to have 4xBurning Wish and one channel in the SB, or Personal Tutor for channel?
I recall when I was thinking about breaking Channel, I was thinking in terms of running eggs.

[Gheizen64]

Does it make sense to have 4xBurning Wish and one channel in the SB, or Personal Tutor for channel?
I recall when I was thinking about breaking Channel, I was thinking in terms of running eggs.

The problem of running tutors is that you never have the mana, a lot of your mana is one-shot and running Bwish into channel is so much slower than just channel. You'd need another shell for it, not belcher. You're welcome to try another shell.

I'm currently testing this list, much more tuned than the other one:

Coinflip.dec

4 Serum Powder
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lich's Mirror
4 Pact of Negation
4 Chrome Mox
4 Channel
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
3 Mental Misstep
1 Taiga
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle


In 60 games i had:

33 wins on turn 1
1 win on turn 2 via 5 mana + lich mirror on T1

of which:

9 games where i won i had Pact backup
8 games where i won i had MM backup
15 games where i had either
2 games where i had both

In %

55% T1 wins
25% T1 wins with MM or Pact Backup
15% T1 wins with Pact Backup


You can test it if you like. Some notes:

-the basic of the deck is : Mull into Channel. The chance of seeing a Channel in hand are about 70% considering stacking mull percents. So the majority of times you see Channel, you win. About 80% of the times i'd say.
-all those games where on the play, but going on the draw isn't so bad since the most played 1 mana counter is MM and you don't care about it.
-you can't summoner pact into emrakul
-channel->lich mirror don't always win the game. I fizzled once or twice doing it.
-if you have Powder and more than 1 channel in hand, a normal mulligan is better than a powder mulligan in terms of seeing another channel. If you have exactly 1 channel in hand, the chance of drawing one is exactly the same for both mulligans (~35.2%), so consider the other card in your hand, a lot of simian and serum means you go for serum mull usually.
- the deck can and will win on 4 cards. Channel, 2 mana, Win condition. Mulligan aggressively if you want to win on T1.
- this testing was done in turn to win T1. There were game where i could have won after T1, but i didn't consider those at all. I'd say "unwinnable" (later than T3 goldfish) games in are about 30%, so the deck lose to himself a lot. Still, it remain absurdly fast. For comparison, i believe even the fastest possible belcher has no more than 25% of T1 wins currently.

Channel can stay forever banned with no remorse.

I'm done for the Channel part. Trying a fastbond combo deck probably next. Also LoA is an interesting card but that can't go off for monetary reasons, so i won't test it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tested this list a bit;

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
3 Channel
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Lich's Mirror
3 Empty the Warrens

Test 1: Hand of SSG, SSG, Chrome Mox, ESG, Seething Song, Desperate Ritual, Charbelcher. Draw Desperate Ritual for the turn. Turn 1 win on the draw, turn 2 on the play.

Test 2: Hand of Chancellor, Chancellor, ESG, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Charbelcher, Manamorphose. Keep, getting up to four mana and preparing to Manamorphose into Tendrils. Draw Channel instead. Play Charbelcher, and if that doesn't kill them have mana left over to ETW for ten tokens.

Test 3: Hand of Emrakul, EtW, Chrome Mox, Land Grant, ESG, SSG, Seething Song. On the play, EtW for eight tokens. On the draw, draw Channel and cast Emrakul.

Test 4: Hand of Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Emrakul, Charbelcher, SSG, Land Grant, Chancellor. Grant into Rite +SSG, cast Charbelcher with mana to activate next turn. On the draw, draw Mox and imprint Chancellor winning turn 1.

Test 5: Hand of Rite, Chancellor, SSG, Taiga, Mox, ETW, Charbelcher. On the play play Charbelcher with mana left over to kill next turn. On the draw draw Belcher and do the same thing.

Test 6: Hand of Rite, Rite, Manamorphose, ESG, Taiga, Burning Wish, Lich's Mirror. Wish for Channel, play Lich's Mirror. On the draw, draw Channel. Have mana to wish for Overmaster before going off. Lich draws into: Emrakul + another Lich's Mirror.

Well, I'm convinced that Channel shouldn't come off anyway. This is another dumb "Mull-for-Force" deck.

[Gheizen64]

Well, I'm convinced that Channel shouldn't come off anyway. This is another dumb "Mull-for-Force" deck.

Yeah, deck is stupid, don't bring anything new to the format and it's basically "play blue or enjoy coinflips".

Fastbond combo kill is slightly more elaborated, Zuran + Crucible + Fastbond and anything between Valakut, Mountains or Piranha Marsh so the deck should be less dumb and possibly even fair without Gush and whatsnot. Maybe in a turboland shell with Horn of greed and battlefield scrounger... for sure alongside 4 enlightened tutor.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This is what I'm testing atm:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Forest
3 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Academy Ruins
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Glacial Chasm
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of Ith

4 Exploration
4 Fastbond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Horn of Greed
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver

It's far from optimal and I feel like LftL needs to be in there somewhere, but it seems good. It doesn't seem really unfair though.

[Gheizen64]

Played that list for a couple games, seems way too good to me.

[Amon Amarth]

IBA that Fastbond deck looks sick. It's like Turbolands and 38lands.dec had an illegitimate child. Wouldn't you want a Ghost Quarter in there to Stone Rain them to death?

[sdematt]

Yes, yes you would want that.

-Matt

[Rizso]

First thought on Skullclamp goes to Stoneforge Mystic...

[edgarps22]

I am curious why the Channel Belcher lists have Emrakul over say Banefire or Demonfire ...

[Gheizen64]

I am curious why the Channel Belcher lists have Emrakul over say Banefire or Demonfire ...

Good luck winning with a Banefire for 18...

[bakofried]

I'm trying to design an EarthClamp Elves list (for an unpowered Vintage meta - fairly casual, with a few nasty things floating around). Earthcraft adds a high-powered mana-engine, while Skullclamp adds a high-powered draw engine. Where should I take this (beyond the core, consisting of the following cards)?
4 Earthcraft
4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
1 Regal Force
12-14 Lands
I imagine i'd want some tutor effects, but I don't know if I should take the GSZ route or the Summoner's Pact route. I also have to factor in a win-condition; should I use Emmy, or Grapeshot/Brainfreeze?

[Dark Ritual]

I was just goldfishing a desire list basically UBr with a very light green splash in the SB. It goes off pretty consistently on turns 2-3 with turn 1 possible with a godhand (as with all tendrils variants lol). Here is the list:

Land 14
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

Cantrips 8
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Fast Mana 16
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

Business 12
4 Burning Wish
3 Mind's Desire
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Sins of the Past

Protection 6
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize

Colorfixing 3
3 Manamorphose

Kill 1
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Meltdown
1 Reverent Silence
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast

SB was thrown together rather quickly now that I look back it should probably include an ill-gotten gains and maybe diminishing returns but w/e. The list goldfishes rather nicely; sins of the past was pretty good as additional desire's and you usually hit a desire effect off a desire for 5 copies total or just hit the win with mana accel into burning wish/infernal tutor/tendrils itself. Overall really pleased with the deck though. Desire should stay banned but I would love it if they did unban it for 3 months lol.

[emidln]

I am curious why the Channel Belcher lists have Emrakul over say Banefire or Demonfire ...

1RGG vs GG

[Tammit67]

This is what I'm testing atm:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Forest
3 Selesnya Sanctuary
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Academy Ruins
2 Nantuko Monastery
2 Glacial Chasm
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of Ith

4 Exploration
4 Fastbond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Horn of Greed
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mindslaver

It's far from optimal and I feel like LftL needs to be in there somewhere, but it seems good. It doesn't seem really unfair though.

Cut crucible/horn to a 1-2 of, doubt you need the slaver, definitely don't need nantuko monastery. Don't need so many factories, and only 1 chasm. You should be able to fit LftL and Tolaria west then. This deck definitely wants Mox diamond, IMO. And fetches. Let me ask Caff what he'd do, being the lands player and all.

EDIT: And oh god, tabernacle is missing? Hmm...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There isn't actually a way to grab one ofs in that list. There's also no Karakas. And with Fastbond I don't think it's correct to add LfTL until you're already at 4 Crucible, Crucible is clearly the better card in such a deck.

I'm also fairly certain that Crop Rotation, for related reasons, is better than Tolaria West, also for the double blue issue.

Mox Diamond might be correct, but I'm not sure where.

Also I'm fairly certain you just suggested cutting pretty much all the win conditions which doesn't seem good.

[Tammit67]

Current lands lists run very few win cons. We are talking 1 creeping tar pit and one smokestacks preboard. That is all you really need. You can just recur mox diamonds with ruins if it is that much of an issue. Crop rotation does help you dodge counters the way tolaria west can. Instead of working hard to get your combo together, which seems slow, instead the deck would go to lock down the board against decks that can actually do stuff to disrupt it. While the changes I'm suggesting will definitely slow down your actual clock, closing up the game should be a formality.

I'm thinking more like:
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Maze of Ith
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
34 lands


2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Horn of Greed
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
3 Fastbond
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb

Which is basically just Mchainmail's top 32 GP list -2 top, -1 manabond +3 fastbond give or take. You could definitely fiddle with a bunch of the numbers here, but you should have a good way to interact with our opponent and still setting up for locking them out of the game. It looks all over the place, but the myriad of tutors keep it damn consistent.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Closing up the game isn't a formality though. There's only 50 minutes in each round. If you have to win twice that means you should be able to do it in 15-20 minutes at the outside.

[Tammit67]

You can definitely do that. You don't see main deck hate, so g1 is all about abusing loam, and a good opponent will scoop once he does not have outs. If he doesn't scoop, shame on him. Take your time and ensure victory (I'm not saying slow play at all). Against slower opponents (and probably goblins) you probably want to call a judge to ensure they maintain a proper pace, but given enough practice with lands, like any deck, you really streamline your decision making to where you don't unnecessarily tank.

I mean, finding the wincon is definitely more troublesome than a Zoo deck. But setting up a winning position usually involves some number of loams and or tolaria west's which can be converted into factories or tarpit or what have you. This would be my take on it, without deviating too much from something I've tested against. Yours is much more direct about what it wants to do.

[obituary 95]

Just a idea I had to abuse hermit druid, it was a blast to build this deck.

4 chrome mox
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal

4 hermit druid
3 narchomobea
1 necrotic ooze
1 phyrexian devourer
1 triskelion

4 brainstorn
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
4 worldly tutor

1 forest
2 island
2 tropical island

2 cabal therapy
4 dread return
4 gitaxian probe
4 land grant
4 sylvan tutor

[Admiral_Arzar]

Just a idea I had to abuse hermit druid, it was a blast to build this deck.

4 chrome mox
4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal

4 hermit druid
3 narchomobea
1 necrotic ooze
1 phyrexian devourer
1 triskelion

4 brainstorn
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
4 worldly tutor

1 forest
2 island
2 tropical island

2 cabal therapy
4 dread return
4 gitaxian probe
4 land grant
4 sylvan tutor

This deck doesn't need LED, just play Elvish Spirit Guide. You also only need to play one or two copies of Dread Return (a la Cephalid Breakfast) which will allow you to pack all four Cabal Therapy. I would recommend a fourth Narcomoeba also, in case you draw two of them. Personally, I hate Land Grant because it reveals your entire plan to your opponent, and would just play more lands (just make them ALL nonbasic). Cut all the basic lands, you want a single hermit druid activation to dump your entire library so you just win.

[Grollub]

Devourer/Ooze is not going to work particular well when you mill your entire library with druid (or am I missing something?). Karmic Guide + Kiki-Jiki + Whatever untapper or plain old Sutured Ghoul should do the trick.

[Sims]

Devourer/Ooze is not going to work particular well when you mill your entire library with druid (or am I missing something?). Karmic Guide + Kiki-Jiki + Whatever untapper or plain old Sutured Ghoul should do the trick.

For a Druid deck I'd say your best win cons would be either:

Karmic + Kiki + Untapper
Ooze + Kiki + Mogg Fanatic (I know this requires a haste enabler or an untap step)
4 Bridges (narcos already in teh deck) + FKZ
Sutured Ghoul + Dudes.

[Gheizen64]

For a Druid deck I'd say your best win cons would be either:

Karmic + Kiki + Untapper
Ooze + Kiki + Mogg Fanatic (I know this requires a haste enabler or an untap step)
4 Bridges (narcos already in teh deck) + FKZ
Sutured Ghoul + Dudes.

Ghoul with 4 Moeba, 4 Goyf , 4 Druid, 1 Dryad. Goyf will almost always be a 5/6 when your whole grave is milled (Creature, artifact, land, sorcery, instant) so 4 Goyf + 3 Druid +1 dryad 24/27 Ghoul and you don't need to run any bad creature aside from Ghoul and an anger (or a Dragon's Breath). The downside is that you are vulnerable to removal/bounce, but you use very few slot and you can win with regular Goyf + counterspell suite:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hermit Druid
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
2 Cabal therapy
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
3 Ponder

Et voilà. The deck is the nuts btw and win against anything that does not run a lot of burn/removal. Misstep helped Druid decks a lot by answering most of the removal played in the format (stp pte bolt lamancer). Card isn't safe to unban, like fastbond and Channel. Also all it does is giving control decks another 1G super fast clock. Nothing interesting to see imho.

[Rune]

A stab at Memory Jar:


4 Memory Jar
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
3 Abeyance
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ponder
1 Defense Grid
3 Liliana's Caress
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


List is probably not close to anything optimal. It's possible that it should just be straight UB with Infernal Tutors and Tendrils instead, because the 3-color manabase looks horrible. I invite anyone to come up with something better and convince me it's too good for Legacy, because I still don't see why it would be. Any Tendrils list (pre-Mystical ban) seems a lot more powerful.

[Gheizen64]

A stab at Memory Jar:


4 Memory Jar
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
3 Abeyance
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ponder
1 Defense Grid
3 Liliana's Caress
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


List is probably not close to anything optimal. It's possible that it should just be straight UB with Infernal Tutors and Tendrils instead, because the 3-color manabase looks horrible. I invite anyone to come up with something better and convince me it's too good for Legacy, because I still don't see why it would be. Any Tendrils list (pre-Mystical ban) seems a lot more powerful.

Why not use it in Tendril? Being able to cast it off ritual is a big buff compared to things like Diminishing Returns... playing Monolith could help. I feel the deck would sorta like a cross between AnT and Spiral Tide, reliant to discard since you need just one spell to resolve but also not as affected by MM since you run a more diverse curve.

[Rune]

Why not use it in Tendril? Being able to cast it off ritual is a big buff compared to things like Diminishing Returns... playing Monolith could help. I feel the deck would sorta like a cross between AnT and Spiral Tide, reliant to discard since you need just one spell to resolve but also not as affected by MM since you run a more diverse curve.

It's possible Tendrils is better. Without having tested anything, I could see a 3-colored list give some very awkward Jar hands. The reason I didn't put it in that list is because I wanted E. Tutor to do all the work, and not have to rely on Infernal Tutor. Being able/forced to dump your win condition onto the table can be both a good and a bad thing, though. If you ask me, discard from non-blue decks has always been a terrible strategy against Storm, so I don't think that the Jar decks' near-immunity to discard matters much in that regard.

Part of the reason why I don't think it will dominate is because draw7's have lost a significant amount of power due to Mental Misstep. When your opponent is often able to draw into 3 free counterspells, you just lose if you didn't get an above average 7.

There's the issue of MUD decks getting a boost, but I don't think this is a problem in any way. These decks are relatively inconsistent, and they still have a hard time surviving in a format with so much removal. Hosers like Null Rod and Serenity are also very hard to beat.

As with a lot of other cards that are still on the banned list, I think this ban is a relic of the past. Most Tendrils decks in Vintage don't even play it to begin with, and if they do, it's mostly because of Tinker. I'm trying to understand why it's always written off as "too broken" for Legacy, but there doesn't seem to be any reason (other than: card was really busted in Extended 10+ years ago). Then again, I remember people saying the same things about Grim Monolith, Dream Halls, Metalworker and Time Spiral before they got unbanned.. There are definitely other cards that should come off before Jar, though ;p

[Shawon]

For a Druid deck I'd say your best win cons would be either:

Karmic + Kiki + Untapper
Ooze + Kiki + Mogg Fanatic (I know this requires a haste enabler or an untap step)
4 Bridges (narcos already in teh deck) + FKZ
Sutured Ghoul + Dudes.

Does this win condition work? If so, would it be the best win condition yet since it doesn't care about removal?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119474&d=1307332982http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=153298&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=177922&type=card

The Mimeoplasm copys Murderous Redcap and adds counters from LoE. Then the copy of Murderous Redcap's ability triggers... targeting opponent.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah it works but... the shell is:

1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath (2 useless cards)

vs

3 useless cards

The upside is that you aren't vulnerable to removal. I prefer the ghoul, 1 less useless card is more relevant than the opponent being able to sneak removal on Ghoul (since they usually "waste" their removal on Druid first).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How is Sutured Ghoul useful? Also I'm pretty sure, "Your opponent can't hold onto StP via a Divining Top and win the game" is a useful ability.

[Gheizen64]

How is Sutured Ghoul useful? Also I'm pretty sure, "Your opponent can't hold onto StP via a Divining Top and win the game" is a useful ability.

It isn't, hence i said 2 useless card vs 3.

[Tammit67]

A stab at Memory Jar:

(deck)
List is probably not close to anything optimal. It's possible that it should just be straight UB with Infernal Tutors and Tendrils instead, because the 3-color manabase looks horrible. I invite anyone to come up with something better and convince me it's too good for Legacy, because I still don't see why it would be. Any Tendrils list (pre-Mystical ban) seems a lot more powerful.

I'm trying for a tendrils list, and I'm having trouble ensuring Jar doesn't backfire into countermagic. Been using silence and duress for protection, but the list doesn't seem overly ridiculous with my (limited) goldfishing. Jar is probably scarier in MUD or some blue based combo, as Ad nausem is just the better 5 drop atm. I'd rather only reload my hand and be forced to combo off quicker.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'm trying for a tendrils list, and I'm having trouble ensuring Jar doesn't backfire into countermagic. Been using silence and duress for protection, but the list doesn't seem overly ridiculous with my (limited) goldfishing. Jar is probably scarier in MUD or some blue based combo, as Ad nausem is just the better 5 drop atm. I'd rather only reload my hand and be forced to combo off quicker.

This doesn't surprise me. In theory, Jar should only be truly insane with either access to Tinker (which should, and will, never happen) or access to a lot more MUD-style mana acceleration (Sol Ring, Mana Vault, etc.). Without one of those cases, I believe Ad Nauseum is always going to draw far more cards, and do it without giving the opponent anything. Even Time Spiral seems stronger than Jar IMO, but that may not be correct. A Jar list could theoretically play Force of Will - as it doesn't have to worry about casting cost - but that significantly weakens LED.

I plan on constructing Storm with Mana Vault, as well as Long.dec, once I have time to run them against a gauntlet of traditional bad matchups - Team America, Dreadstill, Stompy, etc.

[menace13]

I plan on constructing Storm with Mana Vault, as well as Long.dec, once I have time to run them against a gauntlet of traditional bad matchups - Team America, Dreadstill, Stompy, etc.

Lol, Mana Vault.

[Gheizen64]

Since it's that time of the year and people are debating on cards that should come and go from the B/R lists, i've been trying my hand with Bargain, pretty much convinced the card wouldn't be busted in nowaday's meta.

My first list was a total pile. Ruckus provided me with a much more capable list:


4 Show and tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Soul Spike
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Tendrils of Agony
16 lands with fetches

Still, this deck isn't very good. It has an horrible matchup (tested only 10 games pre-board to get an idea, going 2-8) against NoRUG because of clique and heavy counter suite + burn + decent clock. It's slightly favored against Zoo and even against aggressive variants that pack fireblast and/or Gaddock. A resolved Gaddock is game. Stone blade is another bad matchup as so many critical card in this deck cost 1 and has no tutor so it rely completely on cantrips. Countering that Brainstorm/Ponder T1 make the deck so much worse. It has a favored SnT decks matchup since Bargain off SnT is instawin against anything that isn't hivemind.
The list should probably have Intuition somewhere as it is the format best tutor currently. I think only Duress isn't enough for protection.

Notes:
- the deck play a lot like Hive Mind, meaning it has some SnT->Bargain openers that simply win T2 if you can't interact with it
- the deck rape the SnT->Emrakul play
- the deck need more tutors as it is too inconsistent/vulnerable to hate. Intuition is the best in legacy currently so it should probably go for that. Lim's Dul Vault is another option that can be pitched to Soul Spike, but has the problem that it cost life
- mox diamond sucked in hand and was great after Bargain. Probably Chrome mox is better here
- you usually win after bargain if you have ~8 potential card in hand at 1 life. So if you have 3 cards in hand after bargain land, you can win at 6. Something stupid can happen like winning at 4 with 1 cards in hand, but it's extremely rare
- if i'm not mistaken, Krosan Grip actually stop the combo since you can't respond by drawing one more card. However, you can put the ability X times on the stack on the first place, so it's only good if it doesn't actually win the game with the hand he draw

This list from Menace13 is probably a bit better, gonna test it when i got some more time.


I think the deck wants 8 counters and as many accels as it can get away with

4 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
6 Fetches

4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 PoNegation
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder/Intuition/Enlightened Tutor
4 Show and Tell
4 Soul Spike
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain

I especially like the fact it is packing more proactive protection that work better with the deck plan of casting cantrips T1 and T2. Pact of Negation simply has no drawback if you resolve Bargain. It may be a bit too hard to play Soul Spike here with only 18 black cards (decklist before had 22).

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think Soul Spike can be cut for additional cantrips or acceleration. 3 Tendrils should be more than enough especially with Intuition.

[Gheizen64]

Soul spike is actually important in many situations where you don't draw enough free mana to cast a Tendril. Gonna try Menace list -4 Spikes +4 Intuition/Ponder.

EDIT: actually the deck is just so much more consistent. This list seems the best for now


4 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Intuition
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain
2 Flooded Strand
1 Darkslick Shores

[wcm8]

What about cards that convert cards in hand into resources? Unlikely, but perhaps Cadaverous Bloom could find some use... Or maybe even Psychatog or Lorescale Coatl in the sideboard for an alternative kill via combat damage. This may be taking the deck in too strange of a direction though. Tendrils is probably just the simplest and most elegant kill card though, certainly for the maindeck.

[fallenphoenix]

There's always Skirge Familiar, if you'd want to go near-infinite. Throw a Words of Worship into the mix and you can draw your deck, might not be needed though.

[wolfstorm]

What about frantic search in today's meta? What decks other than high tide would love seeing this card, and would it be to powerful in high tide to unban?

[(nameless one)]

What about frantic search in today's meta? What decks other than high tide would love seeing this card, and would it be to powerful in high tide to unban?

Yes, it would be way too powerful in Spiral Tide, especially that Time Spiral is legal in the format. Frantic Search will replace either Ponder or Preordain in the current shell I believe.

[Gheizen64]

Since there is a lot of debate around Vise again, i've decided to test the card some more, this time in stasis lists, this is my latest iteration:


4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Boomerang
4 Arcane Denial
4 Black Vise
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Howling Mine
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Jace Beleren

4 Forsaken City
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Island
4 Tundra

Tutor give redudancy to find any part of the lock, and Berelen + Garruk act both as a kill condition and as a way to do something under stasis. Forsaken City + Stasis with a mine or Jace in play is a lock, and vise should provide the kill. I say should because the deck in testing the deck still can't get more than a 30% win ratio even against slower decks like Stoneblade. It need too many things into play at once to effectively lock and Misstep + Snare + FoW assure you never get all togheter. It also has no outs to Batterskull that conveniently has Vigilance except Tabernacle + Stasis, but that usually take too much time and Batterskull kill first than the lock can.

Gonna test against something else, the stoneblade matchup is a disaster.

EDIT: NoPro and HiveMind are also horrendous. Hivemind in particular really don't care about Vise and Stasis. He just keep lands untapped until he hit 6 mana and then win with a wall of countermagic behind. Deck is a bye for Zoo as expected also :/

Suggestions?

EDIT2: I'm currently running this lists that seems more refined, i'm afraid for the lack of tutors but we'll see:


4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Daze
2 Thwart
4 Force of Will
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Ensnare
3 Root Maze
4 Stasis
4 Black Vise
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Flooded Grove
3 Forsaken City
8 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


EDIT3: i'll highlight one game that i played that i think it's pretty explicative on why stasis isn't playable Vise or not.

Stasis get a fast Stasis + Forsaken city + Tabernacle live and has a lot of cards in hand. SB has apparently no out, but draw counterspell on counterspells and lands, countering all Vises Stasis try to lay. However, even with 3 parts of the lock, SB eventually draw enough lands to play Batterskull + Wasteland and Stasis lose because he has 1 card in hand that constantly exile to Forsaken and can't afford to cast it else SB would untap everything.

Deck still lose a lot more than it win against anything i tested for now (won 2 games out of 10 against zoo and Stoneblade, won't test today NoRUG and Merfolk, probably tomorrow).

[Gheizen64]

Currently running this vise list:

4 Howling Mine
3 Jace Beleren
4 Stasis
4 Propaganda
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Arcane Denial
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
4 Black Vise
2 Frozen AEther
2 Brainstorm

16 Island
2 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Forsaken City

I'm thinking that probably removing Vise and Brainstorm for Ebony Owl Netsuke and Muddle the mixture would make this a better deck by making it completely immune to MM (and then maybe i could play Tolaria West and a singleton Tabernacle). A free counter hitting the main win condition of the deck is a big deal since stasis can't help you prevent it. Using Netsuke would mean all win condition can be countered only by FoW when the lock is in, so the opponent has less chance to race stasis by keeping its win condition at bay and relying on his topdecks to burn/cast Batterskull.

That aside, deck in my testing has come out as having unfavorable matchup all over the place, with Merfolk being especially bad, almost a bye. Waste, Vial, Rejeerey and 4MM + 4FoW are all things Stasis don't like to see. SB and Zoo are both extremely bad and the top deck with the most decent matchup (but still unfavorable in my test) is NoRUG due to lack of wastes, meaning Stasis locks are most consistent against it.

Vise already proved itself mediocre in most aggro decks, now in prison too, but to be honest Prison sucks by itself and doesn't really need Vise, as said many times. Control mirror i guess is where the card could still be playable. But it would still be SB material, so i guess the point of Vise being unbannable or not has been amply proven.

[joemauer]

I have found the B/R challenge thread!
Can we build decks to break cards like Tinker, Tolarian Academy, Mind Twist, or Mind's Desire in the curren meta?

[Gheizen64]

I have found the B/R challenge thread!
Can we build decks to break cards like Tinker, Tolarian Academy, Mind Twist, or Mind's Desire in the curren meta?

Tinker is easy. Play any deck, add some artifacts lands (most decks already play 0 basics np), then 3-4 tinker, 1-2 Bomb. Voilà, new win condition for all blue decks.

Twist could be played for control mirrors and in rock variants like Nice-Fit, but probably wouldn't be maindeck material.

Desire list would see something like AnT but worse.

Academy best deck is Academy Affinity. MUD can't abuse academy because it play too little 0-1 mana artifacts and too many bombs.

EDIT: try this for fun


4x Ornithopter
4x Memnite
4x Etched Champion
4x Signal Pest
4x Vault Skirge
4x Master of Etherium
2x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Tolarian Academy
4x Ancient Den

4x Cranial Plating
3x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Batterskull

4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

[(nameless one)]

Soul spike is actually important in many situations where you don't draw enough free mana to cast a Tendril. Gonna try Menace list -4 Spikes +4 Intuition/Ponder.

EDIT: actually the deck is just so much more consistent. This list seems the best for now


4 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
4 Intuition
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain
2 Flooded Strand
1 Darkslick Shores

I dont get it.... This is Legacy legal...

[.dk]

I dont get it.... This is Legacy legal...

hah - it is indeed - they didn't ban Griselbargain yesterday...

[sdematt]

That's the point of this challenge. Make a deck using one currently banned card and see how busted (or not) it is.

-Matt

[Moondancerbb]

I think we should take one card a week and attempt to bust it Might start a new thread about it when i get home.

[ReinVos]

Bargain is much, much better than Ad Nauseam. Instead of trying to hit 7 mana and use a Tutor to get your bomb (Ad Nauseam itself limits the number of copies you can play of Ad Nauseam and Tendrils where Bargain doesn't set those kinds of ''rules''), you can either use Show and Tell or ramp to six mana. It has the same options (discard, draw/manipulation) ANT has but it also has the same speed Belcher has (consistently kills turns one and two).

I don't need to build this deck to see how ridiculously powerful Yawgmoth's Bargain is.

[feline]

All I saw was the first post, and the first card unbanned as an option was "bazaar of baghdad" That's all I needed to see. >^,^<

-Reference to type 1 Dredge

[dontbiteitholmes]

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [AQ] Mishra's Workshop
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
4 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [BOK] Orb of Dreams
4 [DS] Trinisphere

Just a quick list. I don't think the format is quite ready for turn 1 3Sphere turn 2 Wurmcoil.

[PretendObject]

I put together a high tide list for a Frantic Search unban:

//Lands
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

//Instants
4 Frantic Search
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
1 Meditate
3 Flusterstorm

//Soceries
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral

//Artifacts
4 Candelabra of Tawnos

//Sideboard
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
3 Pact of Negation
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
1 Hurkyl's Recall

The deck is essentially a turn 3 deck now instead of turn 4 but all the hate hits it the same. I would say Frantic Search is pretty safe to unban in regards to its impact to high tide. Maybe it would also make people stop complaining about the deck as well since comboing off doesn't seem to take as long now.

[(nameless one)]

We already know this,

I wanna see Frantic Search in 12-Post decks

[RaZe]

Forget 12Post. The name escapes me but Faerie-Stompy would wreck house.

[Darkenslight]

We already know this,

I wanna see Frantic Search in 12-Post decks

Screw Turbo Eldrazi, the card is nucking futs in Spiral Tide/Solidarity.

[MGB]

// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [AQ] Mishra's Workshop
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
4 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [BOK] Orb of Dreams
4 [DS] Trinisphere

Just a quick list. I don't think the format is quite ready for turn 1 3Sphere turn 2 Wurmcoil.

Unbanned Mishra's Workshop would make MUD the best deck in the format by a wide margin.

Not even all that much of a challenge to speculate about. Just pop 4 copies into the deck alongside the Sol-lands and reap the benefits of the most degenerate mana-engine of a land ever designed.

[joemauer]

I put together a high tide list for a Frantic Search unban:

//Lands
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

//Instants
4 Frantic Search
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
1 Meditate
3 Flusterstorm

//Soceries
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral

//Artifacts
4 Candelabra of Tawnos

//Sideboard
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
2 Wipe Away
1 Snap
3 Pact of Negation
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Intuition
1 Hurkyl's Recall

The deck is essentially a turn 3 deck now instead of turn 4 but all the hate hits it the same. I would say Frantic Search is pretty safe to unban in regards to its impact to high tide. Maybe it would also make people stop complaining about the deck as well since comboing off doesn't seem to take as long now.

Hmmm. Let's take a powerful combo deck that is already difficult to disrupt and speed it up an entire turn?

I fail to see how this is healthy for Legacy.

[Megadeus]

Yeah I dont think High Tide is a weak deck by any means... It just requires a good pilot and a few 300 dollar artifacts...

[WorstBandNameEver]

Yeah I dont think High Tide is a weak deck by any means... It just requires a good pilot and a few 300 dollar artifacts...

Those artifacts make quiet a difference for a weak pilot like me. Having the extra untap is pretty killer sometimes and can really seem to move the combo along.

I plan to try frantic search doing some fish bowls soon.

Sould I drop some number of ponder or preordain for frantic search? I like preordains in this deck more than ponder.

[feline]

I've tested a "possible frantic search" unban and toyed with it in high tide, if it helps, it's nice, but there's the issue of "Card disadvantage" as in, it doesn't replace itself, and in a counterspell war, that part kinda sucks.

The opposite position on that, would be the 1st incarnations of people saying "I'm playing High Tide now, since I don't have candels but they unbanned Frantic Search"

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You would play Frantic Search in Solidarity, where it would be retarded by the by.

Something like:

9 Fetchlands
9 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
3 Intuition
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
3 Snapcaster Mage

3 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

4 Frantic Search

4 Reset
2 Turnabout
4 High Tide

3 Cunning Wish

[DragoFireheart]

Bargain is much, much better than Ad Nauseam. Instead of trying to hit 7 mana and use a Tutor to get your bomb (Ad Nauseam itself limits the number of copies you can play of Ad Nauseam and Tendrils where Bargain doesn't set those kinds of ''rules''), you can either use Show and Tell or ramp to six mana. It has the same options (discard, draw/manipulation) ANT has but it also has the same speed Belcher has (consistently kills turns one and two).

I don't need to build this deck to see how ridiculously powerful Yawgmoth's Bargain is.

Funny, you could almost say the same thing about Griselbrand...

[Lemnear]

ANT has but it also has the same speed Belcher has (consistently kills turns one and two).


Excuse me? ANT is a deck that aims to win Turn 3 with threshold. It does BY FAR not have the Turn 1 kill ratio of Belcher. Please check the ANT thread

[Gheizen64]

This is the direction I would go with Academy. I'm kinda bored with facing idiots on MWS, so I might be willing to spend more time goldfishing and tweaking a list just for my personal enjoyment.

Testing Shawon list as it looked like the most promising of the Academy lists.

4 Tree of Tales
4 Tropical Island
4 Tolarian Academy
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ponder
3 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal
4 Time Spiral
4 Force of Will

Against RUG
Game 1 : Tolarian, Mox diamond, Mox opal, Brainstorm, 2 Monoliths, Time spiral

I keep hoping for draw + brainstorm to get me something, but i draw another Mox opal, Crop rotation and Force of Will. Meanwhile, RUG has a normal start, and have Daze + Force + Snare in hand available. I scoop. Bad decision by me to keep that hand probably.

Game 2: 2x Mox opal, Ancient Tomb, Seat of the Synod, Grim Monolith, Time spiral, Voltaic Key
RUG: Delver, Stifle, Fow, Volcanic, Fetch, Bolt, Goyf

I keep and go Seat-> Voltaic Key-> Opal. RUG draw another fetch, play fetch and pass. I draw another key, but i have nothing to pierce Countermagic, so i play tomb, Key, Monolith and pass. RUG play a 1/2 Goyf and draw a Dismember (yeah pretty old list). I draw a crop rotation, and pass. I don't need Tolarian right now anyway. RUG draw Brainstorm, play delver, attack. I draw Emrakul, and using crop rotation i could get 9 mana + Tolarian for 5 + 1 from a second Mox Opal from hand. I try to bait it, tap Seat, Opal and Tomb and cast Crop rotation. He BS in response and get Daze, Delver and a Fetch. Put dismember , fetch back. Force on Crop rotation, exiling Delver.
At this point i play another Opal, sacrifice the old one, and then tapping Monolith put me at 5UU, i play spiral. In response, Daze the Spiral in hope to bait out a Voltaic activation (into Stifle), but i just use the extra mana i had left to pay for it. Untap Seat and draw: Voltaic Key, Cloud of Faeries, 2 x force, crop rotation, Time Spiral, Ancient Tomb. RUG don't draw counters or stifle and scoop.
1-1

G3: Force, Monolith, Academy,Tomb, Tree of Tales, Cloud of Faeries, Time Spiral
RUG has: Daze, Volcanic, Stifle, Waste, Dismember, Delver, Force
RUG start with Delver. Draw Tree of Tales, Play tree pass. RUG draw force, flip Delver, attack. Play waste and waste my land. Draw Synod, play Synod, pass. RUG draw another dismember (y i know oldass list i never updates decks i don't play), attack with Delver pass. Draw another Synod. Play Synod, try to cast Monolith, but get Dazed. Delver draw another Daze, replay land, attack pass. I draw and cast brainstorm. Draw 2 Tolarian and a Tree of Tales. Nothing useful, so i put all back. Play Tolarian, and Pass. Delver draw another Delver, play it attack and pass. I draw a Tolarian. At this point i can try to go off either:

By tapping all, playing another Tolarian to get to 6 and cast spiral to have Force backup and hope he has no Daze or a second Force or:
By playing Tree of tales, casting cloud of faeries to untap a UUU producing tolarian and cast Spiral with no Force backup

Since he played nothing in all this turns and he's still on a single land, i conclude the odds of him not having double counters is basically next to nil (and he has 3 in hand, daze + 2 FoW + Stifle)
I decide to do neither, and simply play another tree and Pass hoping he doesn't reveal an instant / cast bolt. RUG draw Mongoose, attack for 4. Now i'm dead next turn and i have to go off. I draw the second tolarian i put on top with BS. Can't win, scoop.
Brainstorm with no fetches fucking sucks.

2-1 for RUG

Game 4: Draw 6 lands + a key, mull into: Tolarian, Voltaic Key, Brainstorm, Time Spiral,Force, Monolith. 0 mana on T1, Tolarian pretty good! Mull again for: tropical, BS, Force, Crop rotation, Seat of the Synod, a good 5 cards hand.
RUG draw: Waste, Volcanic, Delver, Mongoose, Spell Snare, Brainstorm, Flooded Strand

I play Seat of the Synod, pass. He draw waste, play Volc, Delver pass. I draw another BS, play trop and Pass. He draw and reveal Daze, attack with 3/2 (blue best creature color guise) , then play and waste my trop. In response i crop it into a Tolarian (don't BS to dodge Daze). EoT BS to see Tree of TAles, cloud of faeries and Monolith. I put Bs and Tree on top. Draw tree, play Monolith, pass. He draw Dismember, and Waste my Academy. I draw and play the BS, seeing 2 more Tolarian and a crop. I put a Tolarian and crop on Top, play a Tolarian and pass, but i have 0 gas. He draw a fetc, get a trop and play Geese. At this point i draw the crop rotation from before, and wish there were a land that could cast Braingeyser or some shit, i scoop. Brainstorm is useless in this deck.

3-1 for RUG

Game 5: I draw 3 monoliths, tree, Opal, Brainstorm, Ponder. I have no blue source but i just need to draw a land or a 1 cmc artifact to be able to do something with this hand. Looking at my decklist, that's a 23 on 53 cards odds. Not good, i mull into: no lands (Opal Spiral etc...), again mull into: 2 spiral, Trop, Tree of Tales, crop rotation. This shit sucks, i draw useless cards first turns while RUG has a slow start but still steamroll with fetches + BS for constant card quality.

RUG has not mulliganed once for now.

4-1 for RUG

Game 6: Trop, 2 BS, Cloud of faeries, Tree of Tales, Mox Opal, Ancient tomb.
RUGhas: fetch, Delver, Daze, Ponder, fetc, Volc, Spell snare

I play trop, opal, pass. RUG draw force, goes delver. EoT brainstorm into: another brainstorm, crop rotation and cloud of faeries. I put 2 brainstorm on top, and draw 1. I play tree of tales, and crop Trop after floating U. He force Crop pitching Ponder, and i cast BS with the floating U, draw brainstorm, another crop, and FoW. Cloud of faries and crop goes on top. RUG draw a fetch, attack with unflipped delver. I try again to crop, this time the ancient tomb after floating 2. It resolve and i get Academy with 2 in pool. Play brainstorm, draw Tree, Trop and Tree again. Put 2 lands on top, pass. He draw BS, flip delver, attack. Now my Academy give 2 mana, but again i have no gas, seems like there's just not enough space to put tutors for Academy, artifacts and cards to keep you on gas all together.

5-1 for RUG

From preliminary testing:

Sensei would be much better than brainstorm, as you have no ways to shuffle consistently and it gives a crucial artifact for Opal and Academy. Cloud of faeries is useless because you'd rather have a monolith or Key to give you extra mana, and chaining academies is more than good enough for it. Mox diamond also almost never get played, this play more like Spring tide than Belcher, better to build up than go all-in. Change the decklist into:

-4 Cloud of faeries
-4 Brainstorm
-1 Mox diamond
+4 SDT
+3 intuition
+2 meditate

Try again!

Draw: Meditate, Tropical, 2x Monoliths, Ponder, Force of Will, Mox Opal
RUG has: brainstorm,spell snare, 2 Trops,force, delver, goose

Play Trops, Opal and Ponder. See opal, Tree and Tomb. Opal third card, draw tree. RUG draw bolt, play Delver. Draw Tomb, play tree and cast monolith. Opal has metalcraft, pass. RUG draw fetch, attack with Delver, play land, play goose pass. I draw Opal, play Tomb, cast Monolith but get countered by Spell Snare, pass. RUG draw waste, play it and waste my trees (no more metalcraft). attack for 2 pass. Draw ponder, cast it, see intuition, Force and Emmy. Shuffle and draw voltaic key. Play Key with monolith, untap monolith, got metalcraft again, pass. RUG draw spell snare and Delver is a 3/2. Play trop, attack, pass. Draw ponder, play it, see Intuition, Force, Crop rotation. I get Crop rotation and pass, too risky to play it now (better wait EoT). RUG draw Dismember! It's 2012 all over again. He attack, and now i can't use meditate eot anymore (7 life). He pass and i have to win this turn. EoT crop sacrificing Tomb ( i need UU for spiral), and he brainstorm, draw 2 stifles and a land, pitch a stifle to force, put land and dismember on top. I untap and draw intuition. I have 8 mana, just 1 short for intuition->spiral, so i have to cast meditate and hope for some sick 4 cards. I draw: tomb, emrakul, Key, and Force. With the 1 floating mana (used opal + Monolith to cast meditate) i try to untap monolith but get stifle. I force the stifle pitching force to force. I am at 4 and he has a bolt in hand. Untap the monolith, tap, play Key, untap monolith, retap monolith, i now have 4 colorless, and no ways to win because i lack enough mana to intuition into Time Spiral.

RUG 1-0

Game 2:I see Tomb, Monolith, Key, Trop, Intuition, Opal, Crop ortation
RUG: BS, Goose, 2x Waste, Spell snare, Trop, Goose
I play Opal, Trop and Key, pass. He draw fetch, waste my land and pass. He has many lands in hand and only a goose for pressure, so he'd rather trade resources. I draw another trop. Play tomb, cast monolith. Got metalcraft now, and pass. He draw another fetch and try to waste my tomb, but i crop it away and get Academy. I untap, draw Diamond. Play diamond, discard Trop. Tap for 10, Intuition for Spiral, cast Spiral. RUG draw 0 forces, i draw crop, SDT, Voltaic Key, Force, Tomb, Key, Seat of the Synod. Play Synod, Tolarian give UUUU.
With 1 floating mana i cast SDT, then use Seat of the Synod to activate it. I see Voltaic Key, Trops and Opal. This is bad. Tap my tolarian for 6 blue mana, tap opal for G, crop my Tolarian for another Tolarian. I use SDT again and this time i see Emrakul and Spiral on Top. Game is over.

RUG 1-1

Game 3: draw 2x monoliths, 2xOpal, Tomb,Force, Spiral
RUG mull, draw into 2 bolt, force, 2 fethes, Dismember, shitty hand but keep.
Play Fetch, pass. I draw tomb, play Monolith and an Opal, pass. RUG draw delver.Play another fetch and pass. I draw another Time Spiral.. Play tomb. Cast monolith, get metalcraft, tap opal, play another opal, sacrifice old opal, tap Tomb, tap a Monolith play spiral. RUG force, but i force back pitching Spiral, and RUG then double bolt me and i'm at 7 with 1 mana floating. I untap and draw: Academy, Key, Monolith, Mox diamond, Crop ortationx2, and Ponder. RUG drew 0 forces. Play diamond discard academy (i already played a land). With diamond i crop my Tomb for an academy, i'm at 5 and 3 mana floating. I play monolith and Key with those 3 floating mana. Tap academy for 6 blue mana, ponder, i see a SDT, another ponder, and opal, draw Ponder and play it, see 2 opal and SDT. Draw and play SDT, look at 3 top cards, the third is a trop. I tap a monolith, untap Opal, get G and crop my academy into another academy. Now i have 16 mana and a SDT, but no cards in hand. Activate SDT, see Monolith, Opal, Trop, and pass. He topdeck and play a Mastery, play a land, and a goose. Then it's his turn again, and he draw another fetch. Tap volcanic for Brainstorm, see some cards. Play waste, bolt on me and i'm at 2, RUG has 4 cards in graveyard. He play Delver and Daze it, 6 cards in the graveyard. Play waste, waste Academy, 7 cards, Goose attack and gg.

RUG 2-1

Game 4: Description will be shorter now because this is getting annoying. Shitty hand into mull, keep bad 6 of Tomb, 2 Spiral, SDT, Synod, Trop. RUG has 2 BS, Lightning bolt,fetch, Delver, Volc island, Spell snare. I cast spiral on T3 with 1 colorless floating, he BS, find force and counter, then flip delver and attack. I crop my Trop and cast spiral. In response he waste my Academy. In the 7 i draw there's academy but i can't play it as i played already 3 lands. I draw 2 SDT, Meditate, Academy, Ponder, Force and Spiral. However i have no mana since i have no academy anymore. I use the floating mana to get SDT on top and draw an Opal. Ponder, shuffle and draw crop rotation, Opal for crop into Academy again, got only 3 artifacts tho and 2 floating mana. With 1 floating i play SDT and then with the other floating i look top 3, there's a Key. Tap Academy for UUU, tap SDT draw key, play Key i'm at UU, use key ability and untap monolith, play another SDT, and pass (i have 3U and i can't do shit). He untap, draw force attack me for 4, pass. I have to win this turn but he has mor counters in hand, chain academies for 10 mana, try spiral, he force, i force back with hardcast, he cast BS, find a bolt and bolt me, i'm at 1 and my hardcasted force just saved my life. However, in the new 7 he draw a bolt, has still a red mana source and bolt me, i intuition for force, but he force back and it's gg again.

RUG 3-1

Game 5: RUG mulls. Got a decent 7 with Academy and SDT. RUG ponder and pass, shitty hand. SDT don't see much first turns, and i just build up tons of mana. RUG in the meantime get a Delver, but still not flipped. He play a waste and waste the Academy, Ponder, attack. I ponder, see nothing to draw, shuffle back and draw, draw Emrakul. Play Academy. Tap all, crop my academy, but crop get Forced, and i'm stuck at 9 mana. Look top 3 with SDT, and there's another Crop and academy but i have no green to play it and pass. RUG flip the delver and attack. I draw tolarian, but have not enough mana even with tolarian chain so i just play it and pass. RUG just attack again and play fetch. Draw crop, now i can get up to 16 mana. He daze crop but it's not enough, i get exactly 15 for Emmy and win.

RUG 3-2

Game 6: RUG mulls, while academy has a good hand and keep. The first play is a voltaic key that get dazed. Then Delver, then SDT. Then Delver flip attack, then Monolith enter into play and pass. Double bolt at EoT to apply some pressure but RUG has only a land and a dead force in hand, draw another bolt pass. Play Spiral and float UU, RUG bolt again in response and Academy is at 5. RUG has 2 bolts and 2 open mana, as well as a force and a ponder to pitch, so he try to win on the spot. Academy drew no force, and try to dig with SDT, but there's no force in top 3 and gg.

RUG 4-2

Game 7: Both keeps. Academy has the legendary seat of the synod, opal, SDT, activate SDT opening. RUG play a delver T1 (is this list running 15 delvers or something?). Academy play Diamond and Academy T2, and now has fucking 7 mana already. Activate top, there's an emmy but no crop, so we'll tutor with intuition at EoT. Delver flip, play goose. EoT intuition, get spiral and play it. I have no spiral in the new 7, and only 7 available mana even after i play a tree of tales because moxens don't untap, so i pass with intuition and a bunch of mana in hand to tutor again at EoT. A Monolith get snared. RUG attack and now has 3 Stifles in hand+FoW+ Daze.EOT try intuition but RUG force, then activate top. I cast a meditate, another academy, then another meditate and get Spiral, Spiral. Chain spirals, intuition for meditate to dig for Emrakul, Meditate get Forced and Academy has no force of its own and no way to dig deeper. Double meditate mean that RUG take three turns in a row and it's gg.

RUG 5-2

Ok so i think the deck would need: more way to effectively win. 1 emrakul is nice and all but you can't tutor for it and chaining Spirals can be ass if your opponent draw Forces on forces and stifles, and counters, and burns and whatsnot when you only run 4 forces as protection. So a win condition that can be tutored by intuition or a way to dig deeper , a la flash of insight? You don't run a lot of blue cards however, so flash of insight flashback is pretty ass. I guess just running 3 Emrakuls could do the trick, but it's not easy to hardcast it before you get to turn 4 or 5 to be able to have a consistent number of artifacts + ability to chain crops, and it's a dead card before you go off. The RUG list was also pretty bad and outdated, with things like Dismember and Temporal Mastery instead of cards that would effectively help in the matchup. After side also RUG can run things like Ancient Grudge and ruin the Academy deck whenever it doesn't get a flash start by essentially 1-siding armaggedoning him. Side-hate for storm like Flusterstorm is also pretty good here.
I think BUG is slightly effective against Academy. Abrupt decay and discard (and the usual forces) are pretty effective against it pre-side, and after side it can run In the Eye of Chaos, Maelstrom pulse, Ratchet Bomb, Surgical Extraction and whatever people would be running, while academy could run choke i guess, and skip the Trops for UG Fastlands from scars.

Still nothing to convince me Academy is broken, if not for monetary reasons + reserved zzz list.

[HammafistRoob]

Excuse me? ANT is a deck that aims to win Turn 3 with threshold. It does BY FAR not have the Turn 1 kill ratio of Belcher. Please check the ANT thread

Reading is tech.

[Shawon]

Glaring omission from Academy list, just realized now: Candelabra of Tawnos.

[Gheizen64]

Glaring omission from Academy list, just realized now: Candelabra of Tawnos.

Right candelabra is just perfect for it. No time to test it now, will probably do some more tomorrow.

[Lemnear]

Reading is tech.

'cuse me?

[HammafistRoob]

I was just nitpicking, you misunderstood his post. He wasn't saying ANT had the speed of Belcher.


Bargain is much, much better than Ad Nauseam. Instead of trying to hit 7 mana and use a Tutor to get your bomb (Ad Nauseam itself limits the number of copies you can play of Ad Nauseam and Tendrils where Bargain doesn't set those kinds of ''rules''), you can either use Show and Tell or ramp to six mana. It has the same options (discard, draw/manipulation) ANT has but it also has the same speed Belcher has (consistently kills turns one and two).

I don't need to build this deck to see how ridiculously powerful Yawgmoth's Bargain is.