U/G/W Vial Bant [Archive]

Hanni

01-02-2011, 01:56 AM

Current decklist (as of 1/9/11):

U/G/W Vial Bant

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ROE] Coralhelm Commander
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

Original Post:

Okay, so I've been discussing this idea with SpikeyMikey, and frankly, the deck just wins.

So a little background on this first before I get into the meat and potatoes. I was playing my U/W/b CounterTop Walker deck on MWS, and SpikeyMikey joined my game with a Bant deck. Normally, my control deck just spanks Bant all over the place. Admittedly I misassigned my role in the matchup, playing as though he were a traditional Bant deck. Regardless, I ended up losing 1-2.

Spikey's deck broke the traditional Bant model, opting for mana dorks and an overload of 3cc and 4cc threats. His deck was designed to beat aggro (like Zoo) with bigger and better midrange threats, while beating the "mirror" by ignoring CounterTop (or blowing it up with Qasali, I guess).

Long story short, I had never been interested in Bant Aggro up until that point. After playing Spikey, I had a rather interesting idea pop into my head: what if I built a Bant Aggro deck modeled after Merfolk, except instead of running shitty Merfolk, I ran better creatures? Thus, this idea was spawned:

Note: if someone had already thought if this idea before, I appologize. I have never seen this idea before, and I'm assuming its still original.

U/G/W Vial Bant

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ARB] Ethercaste Knight
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

Essentially, you're looking at Merfolk. It's literally the same shell, except instead of running Merfolk, it's running Bant creatures. The deck loses some manabase stability going 3c, but running Hierarch and Vial help to alleviate that. Merfolk's creatures are horrible stand-alone threats, and only truly get better with multiples on the board. Bant's creatures are the opposite; they are amazing stand-alone threats. Of course, sticking multiple guys on the board is still ideal, all the same.

Aside from the slight instability of the manabase in comparison to Merfolk, this deck maintains the positive matchups Merfolk has (Combo, CounterTop, Control), but it improves upon its bad matchups (Zoo, Goblins).

Ethercaste Knight probably sticks out as an eyesore. In designing the deck, I needed another 2cc creature (for curve reasons), and I needed that creature to be blue to maintain my blue spell count for Force of Will. Here's the list I looked through:

Plaxmanta
Deft Duelist
Galina's Knight
Gaea's Skyfolk
Bant Sureblade
Esper Stormblade
Meddling Mage
Ethercaste Knight
Shorecrasher Mimic
Jhessian Infiltrator

In choosing a blue 2cc creature, I wanted something that would be good against aggro. Ethercaste blocks Kird Ape's and Loam Lion's all day long, is out of Grim Lavamancer range, and swings as a 3/5 with a single Noble Hierarch on the board. 12 Exalted triggers is actually really strong, allowing a board of Hierarch, Ethercaste, Qasali to swing through a single 4/5 Goyf on defense with a 5/5 Qasali. Even more busted than that is swinging with a 5/6 RWM against an aggro deck, or a 3/3 Selkie (postboard) against any deck playing blue (or non-blue aggro-less control).

The sideboard is just a throw-together for right now. More than likely, Meddling Mage is overkill (vs combo), and Dueling Grounds would be good (vs Goblins).

I realize that this is rather unconvential, with me cutting cards like Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares. There's still alot of room to play with too, with options like Trygon Predator and Rafiq of the Many. Still though, this deck has been performing much better than Merfolk for me in playtesting, and I think that this could easily replace the niche that Merfolk has in the metagame.

There's alot more to be said, like just how strong this mana denial/tempo countermagic shell is with KotR (and Vial/Hierarch obviously). However, I'll wait to dig into more detailed content like that until some discussion gets going on this.

Thoughts?

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2011, 02:57 AM

Obviously, I'm a fan. :P

In terms of the possibles, Shorecrasher Mimic looks interesting, but I think you're probably right on running Ethercast over it. Ethercast, to me, looks a lot like Tidal Warrior in early Merfolk listings. It's jank, but it's jank that's good enough to make the cut until something better is printed that can fill it's slot. As strange as it's going to sound to most people, I think that Exalted is heavily undervalued in Legacy, especially paired up with creatures that *do something*. And I undervalued it as much as everyone else. Oh, we've all come to recognize that having a Hierarch or Pridemage to win 'goyf battles is great, but that's like saying SDT is good... When you pair it up with Counterbalance. It's just good on its own, and in a deck like this, you don't necessarily need to land a big threat. 3 or 4 little ones will do. If you've got a pair of Hierarchs and a Pridemage, that cat is swinging for 5. And you've probably got Force mana open. 5 is enough to take down most goyfs. Nobody wants to have to chump Qasali Pridemage with their Tarmogoyf.

The best part is that you've taken Aether Vial and somehow made it MORE scary than it already was.

It's pretty tough for you to lose post-board against half the format (anything running blue) if you stick a Selkie, because if it swings once, chances are that nothing is ever going to resolve again that you don't want to see hit play. And you've got Vial, so it's not as if you're telegraphing your intentions a turn ahead of time. But Ancestral Recall on a stick is pretty good. And it's tough for other aggro decks to race you when you're beating with a 5/6 or bigger RWM. It's like having a 3 mana Baneslayer. It's not like they're swinging through you, because you're stacking up Tarmogoyfs and KotRs that make excellent walls until the point at which you've reached critical mass and you swing for the fences the way that tribal decks do. The difference is that your creatures don't suck prior to that point.

I would want to try and find room for a main deck Maze of Ith, possibly in place of 1 Pridemage. The biggest threat, artifact/enchantment wise, is always Counterbalance, and you can, to an extent, ignore that with Vial. I know you're not a fan, but after having played with KotR and Maze in Rock, I am absolutely sold on the idea. You can use Maze at the end of combat step after damage has already been dealt, which means that you can beat someone with your Knight for 7 or 8, then untap it to use for Wasteland shenanigans or to fetch out Canopy to draw more gas. I haven't played this exact listing, so maybe it's "danger of cool things", but it's just been so key for me while playing Rock that I'd have to at least test with it first before letting the idea go.

menace13

01-02-2011, 03:06 AM

hyc8028

01-02-2011, 03:06 AM

Interesting take. Is it possible to fit in some standstills or maybe mishra factory?

Hanni

01-02-2011, 03:33 AM

I would want to try and find room for a main deck Maze of Ith, possibly in place of 1 Pridemage.

I'll consider it, and I know Maze of Ith does have a nice interaction with KotR, I'm just not sure that the deck actually "needs" it. Keeping toolboxes to a minimum and decks as concise as possible has always been a deckbuilding philosophy that I live by.

Stoneforge 2-3 and a samll equipment package are better than the Ethercast, either as a standalone unit or using her to grab Jitt/SoFI for Nobles. Vial frees up the mana to make equipping and casting removal/counter easy.

There's about a million (not really) 2cc creatures that I'd rather run in the Ethercaste spot that aren't blue. The problem is, they have to be blue to maintain a proper blue spell count for Force of Will, and there's no where else to cut from without weakening the deck to do so.

Also, I'm not sure the deck even needs Equipment. Equipment is bomb diggity, and definitely improves aggro matchups like Goblins and Zoo, but it also dilutes the decks gameplan. What do you cut to fit the Equipment? Gas (creatures)? Control (countermagic package)? The deck already runs massively big guys with Goyf, KotR, and Exalted triggers anyway. Not sure that the extra +4/+4 from something like Jitte is even needed, and the deck has no evasion or removal to make SoFI particularly amazing.

Stp should also be in the list for Lackey,Bob and random Peacekeepers.

I agree that an out to Peackeeper would be nice, obviously sideboard. My sideboard is a throw-together like I said, so it wouldn't be out of the question to cut some Crypt's or Meddling Mages or something for some Swords to Plowshares.

Interesting take. Is it possible to fit in some standstills or maybe mishra factory?

Not really. Most Merfolk lists these days don't even run Standstill's anymore (they run Coralhelm Commander instead). Standstill is really only good against less aggressive decks (typically the blue matchup), which this deck already smashes anyway. Selkie's in the board fit the draw scheme alot better (with the Exalted triggers + Islandwalk).

Mishra's Factory doesn't fit in the manabase, period. The manabase as it is, with Hierarch and Vial to support it, is solid. Any alterations that weaken the current config (like cutting colored sources for Factories), is going to lead to disaster.

menace13

01-02-2011, 04:20 AM

There's about a million (not really) 2cc creatures that I'd rather run in the Ethercaste spot that aren't blue. The problem is, they have to be blue to maintain a proper blue spell count for Force of Will, and there's no where else to cut from without weakening the deck to do so.

Also, I'm not sure the deck even needs Equipment. Equipment is bomb diggity, and definitely improves aggro matchups like Goblins and Zoo, but it also dilutes the decks gameplan. What do you cut to fit the Equipment? Gas (creatures)? Control (countermagic package)? The deck already runs massively big guys with Goyf, KotR, and Exalted triggers anyway. Not sure that the extra +4/+4 from something like Jitte is even needed, and the deck has no evasion or removal to make SoFI particularly amazing.

I agree that an out to Peackeeper would be nice, obviously sideboard. My sideboard is a throw-together like I said, so it wouldn't be out of the question to cut some Crypt's or Meddling Mages or something for some Swords to Plowshares.

Blue FoW count noted, hadn't really considered that, but that is definitely an issue. 4 Vials in a bant deck take up an awful lot of room and that gets compounded when trying to add on 2 pieces of equipment. Making room for StP and Brainstorm is important. I am not sure on the exact list. The numbers below do not reach 20 blue and 20 lands, as your list does, but somewhere along these lines.

SoFI grants evasion against Merfolk and Goblins at the same time offering removal for LoA, Piledriver, Lackey. Jitte also removes creatures with -1/-1 counters. Both are relevant against Zoo.

2x Mystic, 3x KotR, RWM, 4x Goyf, Noble, Pridemage. 20 Creatures
4x Brainstorm, Daze, FoW, 3x Pierce. 15 Instants
4x Vail, 1x Jitt, SoFI. 6 Artifacts

Hanni

01-02-2011, 04:56 AM

Blue FoW count noted, hadn't really considered that, but that is definitely an issue. 4 Vials in a bant deck take up an awful lot of room and that gets compounded when trying to add on 2 pieces of equipment. Making room for StP and Brainstorm is important. I am not sure on the exact list. The numbers below do not reach 20 blue and 20 lands, as your list does, but somewhere along these lines.

The deck needs to be looked at as if it were Merfolk before it gets looked at like traditional Bant, because that's the actual shell this deck is built from. In that sense, Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares are alot less necessary.

In regards to Brainstorm, I originally had it instead of Spell Pierce. Brainstorm did help to fix landscrew early and landclumps late, and it obviously does help when digging for something specific (like Qasali or Force of Will). Usually though, I was just filtering gas into more gas. This deck is strong because of its redundancy.

As far as Swords to Plowshares go, I'm not really scared of very many creatures the opponent can put down. They lay some threats, I lay some bigger threats, then they run out of threats while I'm still laying more. There are few key creatures that are worth plowing, but they are selective and match specific. In that case, I'd say Swords to Plowshares would be a better sideboard card than a maindeck one.

I'm also OCD when it comes to blue spell counts for Force of Will. I really hate going below 20, and the lowest I'll ever go is 18 if there is just no possible way to get it higher. In this case, I'm at my standard "rule of thumb" 20, and I'm content with that.

SoFI grants evasion against Merfolk and Goblins at the same time offering removal for LoA, Piledriver, Lackey. Jitte also removes creatures with -1/-1 counters. Both are relevant against Zoo.

I've already 2-0'd the Merfolk matchup twice tonight, so I'm really not worried about that matchup. It's like a mirror match where I have way better creatures than them. In postboard games, Selkie owns them so hard that it's not even funny.

As far as Goblins goes, I still need to playtest that matchup. Obviously SoFI owns that matchup, but my manabase is a bit fragile and resolving a 3cc artifact and equipping it for 2 is still a hurdle against the 4 Wasteland 4 Port builds. I definitely think a good sideboard plan is warranted for that matchup, but I don't think a fringe matchup like Goblins warrants MD equipment that are unecessary against everything else.

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2011, 09:37 AM

Stoneforge 2-3 and a samll equipment package are better than the Ethercast, either as a standalone unit or using her to grab Jitt/SoFI for Nobles. Vial frees up the mana to make equipping and casting removal/counter easy. Stp should also be in the list for Lackey,Bob and random Peacekeepers.

I thought about this when Hanni first brought me his listing. I thought that he could possibly change Pridemage to Predator (to maintain blue count) and replace Ethercast with 2 Mystics and a Jitte and a Sword. The problem is, I think it would be a very bad change. You're losing the deck's core competency (consistent quality beats) in order to shoehorn in a mana intensive package into a deck that wants to be using all 4 Wastelands every game if possible while saving mana for Pierce. Even with Vial, that's a bit of a stretch. I'm a big fan of the idea of Vial Mystic letting you drop equipment without even worrying about counters. This just isn't the deck for it I think.

4eak

01-02-2011, 10:53 AM

Hanni

01-02-2011, 12:55 PM

With the SFM/Equipment package (which I do believe belongs in any white-vial deck), I think you can run blue creatures which aren't as beefy to great effect. Spellstutter Sprite is an acceptable standalone card, imho. With equipment, it becomes quite strong. Variants of the deck may even consider Mother of Runes (I have no idea where it would fit).

After getting some sleep and coming back to it, I'm thinking that maybe a SFM package would be good in the sideboard to address Goblins, instead of Dueling Grounds.

I 2-0'd Zoo yesterday, twice. The Zoo match is really good. I didn't even have anything in my sideboard to address this matchup (I'm still using the one I listed), and to be honest, there was only one close game and the rest were blowouts. The reason this deck is successful against Zoo is because it uses more midrange threats than they have, which are all out of burn range (Goyf/KotR/RWM). RWM swings life totals in a way that they never even get me close to a burn out range, and their 4 Path to Exile vs my 4/4/3 countermagic package doesn't really do much. Couple the fact that most lists run shaky manabases, and this deck is pretty good against Zoo.

Goblins, on the other hand, I haven't gotten to playtest against yet. I can see that matchup being very problematic, with turn 1 Lackey openings (when I'm on the draw) being pretty difficult to overcome. There's a number of ways this matchup could be addressed, however I'm thinking that cutting Spell Pierce and Force of Will for SFM/Equipment postboard would be a solid plan.

Hanni

01-02-2011, 02:34 PM

After logging some more playtesting, I decided to change the sideboard up a bit.

Tormod's Crypt just seems really unecessary. There are few matchups where this deck really needs the extra graveyard hate. The fact that this deck attacks with Wasteland/Daze/Force/Pierce is enough to destabalize decks like Dredge long enough to either race, or get a Knight of the Reliquary in play. Knight of the Reliquary + Bojuka Bog is all the deck really needs to answer graveyard based strategies.

I went ahead and cut the 4 Crypt's for 2 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI. This gives me something to sideboard into for matchups like Goblins, Elves, and other swarm strategies. Now I have a sideboard which addresses all major archetypes: Combo (MMage), Blue/Control (Selkie), and Aggro (SFM/Equips). I'll keep the Karakas for Emrakul/Iona and the 2 Bojuka Bog for Dredge/Vengevine.

Here's the new sideboard:

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

Enjoy.

EDIT: I just 2-0'd Zoo again. I'm not sure why I keep running into Zoo all of a sudden on MWS, but I'm not complaining. In game 2, I boarded out 4 Force of Will for the SFM/Equip package, but never saw SFM or any Equips. This deck absolutely smashes Zoo, I'm loving it.

I don't understand why there is so little discussion going on about this deck right now. I just took one of the best Tier 1 decks in the format (Merfolk), turned its worst matchup (Zoo) into one of its best matchups, and the deck loses nothing against its good matchups. Ah, well...

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2011, 03:10 PM

Jak

01-02-2011, 03:20 PM

Hanni

01-02-2011, 03:21 PM

I'm just not sold on Meddling Mage. Without being able to see their hand (black or more Clique) you can't Mage effectively. What would you think of Spellstutter in board against combo? It would give you another counter to disrupt their mana (Ritual, LED, etc.) And it still beats, albeit not for as much.

Well, after game 1, you should probably know what type of combo deck they are playing. In that case, its not very difficult to know what to name with Meddling Mage. At worst, its still beating for 2 (+ Exalted). However, Spellstutter is also a viable alternative. Without Mutavault's, I'd be concerned with its lack of hitting 2cc targets, but its still disruptive, blue, and has legs.

For those who don't feel comfortable with Meddling Mage, Spellstutter is a fine alternative. Not beating as hard isn't too relevant, since this deck is full of clock.

For me personally, Meddling Mage is really good against combo. If I have a hand that attacks manasources, I can name manasources (like LED) to keep them off manasources. If I have a hand that is light in mana denial, I can name tutors to slow them down. Against combo decks like Show and Tell, Spiral Tide, Reanimator, etc... Meddling Mage is just a house. Meddling Mage is also really good against Dredge, naming Cabal Therapy to limit Bridge tokens, and then naming Dread Return.

lordofthepit

01-02-2011, 05:11 PM

Interesting deck--I'd probably run it over Merfolk the next time a Fish strategy seems viable.

I know you've done a lot of testing, but I still believe Ethercaste Knight is a mistake. You've mentioned wanting something that fits the following criteria: 1) 2-cc creature, 2) pitches to FoW, and 3) is good against aggro.

I'd argue that a 1/3 exalted creature really doesn't do anything against aggro, and I think while there's an opportunity cost to not satisfying criteria #1 or #2, it's better than running a subpar creature. If you really want to run more 2-drop creatures, I'd consider Meddling Mage main or Spellstutter Sprite (and try to fit an addition Clique somewhere). I'd also consider non-creature spells like Standstill, or to take a page out of another "Fish" deck, a non-blue creature like Weathered Wayfarer, which I feel this deck is very suited to abuse. (The latter would probably justify the inclusion of Brainstorm to gain card advantage and quality, to up the blue count for Force of Will, etc.--at the cost of cutting some other cards to be determined.)

Hanni

01-02-2011, 05:42 PM

I know you've done a lot of testing, but I still believe Ethercaste Knight is a mistake. You've mentioned wanting something that fits the following criteria: 1) 2-cc creature, 2) pitches to FoW, and 3) is good against aggro.

I'd argue that a 1/3 exalted creature really doesn't do anything against aggro, and I think while there's an opportunity cost to not satisfying criteria #1 or #2, it's better than running a subpar creature. If you really want to run more 2-drop creatures, I'd consider Meddling Mage main or Spellstutter Sprite (and try to fit an addition Clique somewhere). I'd also consider non-creature spells like Standstill, or to take a page out of another "Fish" deck, a non-blue creature like Weathered Wayfarer, which I feel this deck is very suited to abuse. (The latter would probably justify the inclusion of Brainstorm to gain card advantage and quality, to up the blue count for Force of Will, etc.--at the cost of cutting some other cards to be determined.)

When I first started testing, I picked him up as pretty much the lesser of all of the other evils. After playtesting with the guy for a little while, I actually like him. Sometimes I get a weak draw with Hierarch's, Qasali's, and tiny Goyf's (due to lack of opponent putting spells in the graveyard). The extra Exalted really goes a long way during these times, making my little guys a real threat. Consolidating all of my power into a single body is sometimes just what the deck needs.

However, I'm still open to playtest other options.

I initially tested Meddling Mage, but he's pretty awful in game 1 when you don't know what to name, and a 2/2 body is lacking. With Exalted triggers, he's not too bad, but he's still rather meh.

What I do want to try next, is Esper Stormblade. I very frequently have another creature on the board who's multicolored, so pumping him should be rather easy. I've come to respect Flying in this deck quite a bit during playtesting, when the lone Exalted Clique is the one who gets in there for me. Having 4 more potential 3/2 Flying guys, especially with the (8) Exalted triggers, seems pretty good.

TheSleeper

01-02-2011, 05:56 PM

I'm currently looking for a Zoo-killer so will be testing this deck - cheers Hanni. Let us know how Stormblade works for you, as with your exalted triggers the flying seems decent. Maybe 2 Stormblade 2 Ethercaste?

Karhumies

01-02-2011, 06:22 PM

Ethercaste Knight probably sticks out as an eyesore. In designing the deck, I needed another 2cc creature (for curve reasons), and I needed that creature to be blue to maintain my blue spell count for Force of Will. Here's the list I looked through:

Plaxmanta
Deft Duelist
Galina's Knight
Gaea's Skyfolk
Bant Sureblade
Esper Stormblade
Meddling Mage
Ethercaste Knight
Shorecrasher Mimic
Jhessian Infiltrator

In choosing a blue 2cc creature, I wanted something that would be good against aggro.

Although your list is definitely more aggro than control, you may nevertheless wish to try out Waterfront Bouncer or Spellstutter Sprite in that slot. In some very specific metas, even MD Gilded Drake may be viable. Of course, Sprite gets much better if you decide to run MD equipment such as 1-2x Jitte. It should not be too difficult to find slots for Jitte IMO (e.g. -4th Daze), as it would seem to improve the deck more than to dilute or "take away" from it. Naturally, you need to be careful about the overall blue count.

Or if you want more card draw, you can try out the UW tempo-guy Fathom Seer (although he's actually a cc3 rather than cc2 creature). But as a cc2, he has many of the same benefits you listed with Ethercaste Knight so I thought he is a fair alternative which actually gets better as the game progresses and you draw into redundant lands.

Another option would be to discard the whole idea of a cc2 blue creature and add 4x Brainstorm in that slot. You already have 8 cc2 creatures, and if you were to add 2 Jitte, that would raise the amount of 2-drops up to 10 (with the fallback option of hardcasting a Daze on opponent's turn). Mana Leak might not be too bad, either, as you are practically trying to buy time for your cc3 "lords" with your cc2 blue slot.

SB: Where's Llawan, Cephalid Empress? You need him versus Lord of Atlantis IMO. Otherwise, Islandwalk can kill you.

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2011, 07:07 PM

Although your list is definitely more aggro than control, you may nevertheless wish to try out Waterfront Bouncer or Spellstutter Sprite in that slot. In some very specific metas, even MD Gilded Drake may be viable. Of course, Sprite gets much better if you decide to run MD equipment such as 1-2x Jitte. It should not be too difficult to find slots for Jitte IMO (e.g. -4th Daze), as it would seem to improve the deck more than to dilute or "take away" from it. Naturally, you need to be careful about the overall blue count.

Or if you want more card draw, you can try out the UW tempo-guy Fathom Seer (although he's actually a cc3 rather than cc2 creature). But as a cc2, he has many of the same benefits you listed with Ethercaste Knight so I thought he is a fair alternative which actually gets better as the game progresses and you draw into redundant lands.

Another option would be to discard the whole idea of a cc2 blue creature and add 4x Brainstorm in that slot. You already have 8 cc2 creatures, and if you were to add 2 Jitte, that would raise the amount of 2-drops up to 10 (with the fallback option of hardcasting a Daze on opponent's turn). Mana Leak might not be too bad, either, as you are practically trying to buy time for your cc3 "lords" with your cc2 blue slot.

SB: Where's Llawan, Cephalid Empress? You need him versus Lord of Atlantis IMO. Otherwise, Islandwalk can kill you.

You'd need to run 4 because you have no consistent filter. Selkie is just better. If you draw 3 or 4 cards a turn, you're not going to lose because they're not going to resolve anything. Basically, you're just racing and trying to match them with free counters. Your creatures have better abilities and you're sending just as much into the red zone. Jitte is, of course, good against them too.

Hanni

01-02-2011, 08:28 PM

SB: Where's Llawan, Cephalid Empress? You need him versus Lord of Atlantis IMO. Otherwise, Islandwalk can kill you.

I've only playtested the matchup twice, but I 2-0'd my opponents both times. During the early game, my creatures are capable of swinging because of the Exalted and them not wanting to lose guys, while I keep a big guy back on defense so they can't/won't swing. By midgame, once their guys get pumped to good levels, they're typically on defense because I was the aggressor early. Lord of Atlantis does allow them to evade my fat, but I'm typically not holding fat back by then anyway. Neither of us run creature removal, so it's really a matter of racing, where my deck is capable of starting sooner.

One major thing about the "mirror" is Vial control. There are a multitude of counter wars early on in regards to Aether Vial. I have more tools to keep them off Vial with Qasali Pridemage. If I can keep them off of Vial via countermagic/Qasali and blow their mana up with Wasteland/KotR, I usually win those games.

Preboard, Rhox War Monk helps win the race war too, since it seperates the life totals by a pretty large margin.

Postboard, Selkie is a damn animal in the "mirror." They could run it themselves, but they don't for some reason. They (usually) can't block Selkie, and when I'm drawing multiple cards a turn, they have a problem keeping up with all my gas.

Llawan is a bad sideboard card to run unless Merfolk is dominating your metagame, because it only answers 1 specific matchup (Merfolk), which isn't even a bad matchup. If you really felt the need, you could bring in the SFM/Equip sideboard package, which is a better sideboard plan because its useful in other matchups. In my limited testing, I didn't feel like I needed the additional edge with Equipment, but there's no harm in having extra advantages.

Jeff Kruchkow

01-02-2011, 09:37 PM

otherside

01-02-2011, 10:10 PM

Swords > Ethercast Knight.

Ethersworn Canonist would probably work better against storm because they have multiple win cons unless your facing a lot of show and tell.

otherside

01-02-2011, 10:22 PM

Maybe try this:

Same Manabase

4 Hierarch
4 Goyf
4 Knight
3 Pridemage
3 V Clique
3 RWM

4 Fow
4 Daze
4 Swords
4 Vial
3 Spell Pierce/Snare/Stifle

17 blue cards is probably not enough though. Natural order fits better than vial in this shell imo.

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2011, 10:48 PM

Jeff Kruchkow

01-02-2011, 10:59 PM

Fish doesn't run Swords and yet it still manages to win. With irritating consistency. Affinity doesn't run Swords either. I wouldn't call it a great deck, but it can still run people over. It's not like you have no way of interacting with your opponent and stopping large threats. You do run a lot of counters plus mana denial that can all be utilized while still dropping creatures on the board. And despite being 3 colors, you still have a more stable mana base than splash-color Fish decks because you're packing mana fixing in Hierarchs and don't run 8 colorless lands.

Yes merfolk does win without swords. But it also has HUGE issues against any non-blue creature deck. And saying you have "a lot of counters" isn't really true since you have only 4 force and 4 daze to stop dudes. And daze stops being potent really fast.

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2011, 11:08 PM

Yes merfolk does win without swords. But it also has HUGE issues against any non-blue creature deck. And saying you have "a lot of counters" isn't really true since you have only 4 force and 4 daze to stop dudes. And daze stops being potent really fast.

Depending on what you're doing with your Wastelands. You don't exactly need all game. If they play around Daze, they're behind the 8-ball before they can land their KotR, if they don't, they walk into it. I'm not saying the deck is going to win every game, but when Hanni says that it's been mindblowing for him, I'll trust him. He's got a decent pedigree. I'm still playing my original version. Just from looking at his listing, I think it's as different from this as this is from standard Bant aggro, which makes it difficult for me to speak from my own experience. And until after the SCG 5K in KC next weekend, I won't have time to test and tweak anything but my list, since it's too late in the game to be switching decks again.

I know that this is something you constantly hear scrubs say about bad decks, but I'm going to say it anyway. Put it together on Workstation or Cockatrice, throw it against the wall, and see if it sticks for you. If you still feel like it needs StP, then try and fit it in.

ScatmanX

01-02-2011, 11:38 PM

Really like the deck.

Have you tried Coralhelm Commander in the 2cc slot dude?
1 - he's blue.
2 - he's 2cc.
3 - he get's to be a 4/4.
4? - When he's pumped to max, he gives Selkie +1/+1.

Just seems like a solid beater, even without the other Merfolks.

Another thing: Stoneforger pack SB is a great idea. I think that, against Goblins, you'll probably need it, just like Merfolk needs something.
Would like to see how Dredge goes with just 2 Bokuja SB too.

SpikeyMikey

01-02-2011, 11:46 PM

Remember you've got 4 KotR to find your Bogs. If they're on the play with a fast hand and you don't have Force for the PImp/Tribe, I think they smoke you. If you're on the play, you've got Force and Daze which should give you time to find either Bog or better yet KotR into Bog.

CC seems like a good idea.

4eak

01-03-2011, 12:46 AM

I'm a huge fan of Aether Vial (and I defend it where others very often don't). I'm really not convinced (and I've built this deck before...I always test Vial in creature decks), Vial is worth it in this deck. What makes this deck better, overall, than a straightfoward Bant aggro/control deck?

// Lands - 20
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains

// Creatures - 20
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells - 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm

The main spell differences will be:

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spell Pierce

vs.

4x Aether Vial
4x Ethercaste Knight
1x Vendilion Clique

Give me good reasons why I should choose the latter. My testing points towards the former. From a vacuum, as well, the comparison doesn't look like much of a contest to me. When I weigh Vial and threat density against the sheer card quality of Brainstorm (letting you run only the best of each function, including threats) and the board impact of StP, I just don't see how Vial/Knight comes out on top.

Just to be clear: this deck doesn't abuse Vial nearly as well as Merfolk.

Lastly, while playing around Counterbalance is important, I think there are other ways to do this besides Vial (despite Vial being the best answer in the game) which won't require you to sacrifice staples like Brainstorm and StP.

peace,
4eak

mossivo1986

01-03-2011, 04:12 AM

Ciberon

01-03-2011, 07:32 AM

I have to ask. Why no Swords to Plowshares in the deck?

Hanni

01-03-2011, 07:01 PM

There is no possible way that not running the best removal spell in the format is right. None. Swords solves so many problems and makes sure you dont just lose when an opposing creature deck drops something you can't handle (Super large Knight, Lackey, LoA etc)

and

Swords > Ethercast Knight.

and

The main spell differences will be:

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spell Pierce

vs.

4x Aether Vial
4x Ethercaste Knight
1x Vendilion Clique

Give me good reasons why I should choose the latter. My testing points towards the former. From a vacuum, as well, the comparison doesn't look like much of a contest to me. When I weigh Vial and threat density against the sheer card quality of Brainstorm (letting you run only the best of each function, including threats) and the board impact of StP, I just don't see how Vial/Knight comes out on top.
.

and

I have to ask. Why no Swords to Plowshares in the deck?

There has only been a very limited amount of times where I wish I had a Swords to Plowshares. The most memorable was against B/G Pump Infect where he finally resolved a guy (the 1/1 flyer), didn't do a whole lot for a long time, and then when he was 1 turn from death, cast double Invigorate + Berserk ftw.

The deck just runs straight gas. Rather than try to be reactive and remove my opponent's creatures, I just keep casting my own. It's a similar philosophy that Merfolk has. I have big ass guys to hold the ground, and I can swing through with one really big ass guy that they are forced to chump block, or take alot of damage. Especially if I do decide to go with Esper Stormblade (flying), I don't see many situations where I'm worried about having removal.

I have to ask, for those suggesting Swords, who has actually tried the decklist as posted? I appreciate criticisms, but I keep seeing the same thing. The deck does not need Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck. Being proactive and laying threat after threat has been winning me match after match, especially when my threats are great on defense and are larger on offense than anything the opponent's have on defense.

I've 2-0'd 4 Zoo decks now, all of whom had their own Goyf's and KotR's in play. I've 2-0'd Aggro Loam twice now, both of whom had their own Crushers and Goyf's in play. You have to realize that those decks are slower than I am at getting those guys out (and growing them large). The reason for this is because the oppponent's are playing against a deck that slows their development down via Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/FoW/etc, while in the meantime, is accelerating its own development via Hierarch/Vial.

This strategy just works. If before Merfolk became popular, you would have asked me what I thought about that deck on paper, I would have bashed it, and I did bash it way back when. Clearly I was wrong back then. The fact is, the strategy works, and it wins games. I'm not doing anything different in here than what Merfolk does (no Brainstorm/StP, etc). All I did was cut the shitty Merfolk for better creatures, which improved the various aggro matchups, because midrange Bant Aggro has better aggro matchups than Lord-dependant Merfolk does.

I also stronly disagree with your assumption 4eak, whether you tried the deck before or not. I always want to see a Vial in my opener, you would not believe how much more powerful this deck is with a turn 1 Vial vs no Vial. I'd much rather run Vial than Brainstorm or Swords to Plowshares in this deck, straight up. If this deck were modeled like CounterTop or Supreme Blue, it would be a different story, but it's not.

Vial and threat density is why I keep winning games with this deck. It's funny, too, because in a normal Bant deck, getting hit by an opponent's StP or PtE really sucks, and in here I just laugh and lay another guy down. It's nice when my entire hand is nothing but creatures and I have a Vial in play, and my opponent's get so frustrated cause these big ass guys just keep coming and coming, with no end in sight.

You say you built this deck before, but I question how you built it. I can see, in a vacuum, tossing Vial into the deck and not being impressed with it. I've done that before with other decks, with unpleasant results. The fact of the matter is, this deck is modeled directly after Merfolk. That means it mimics Merfolk's curve exactly, spell count for spell count. The same number of 1cc, 2cc, and 3cc creatures and spells. The same threat density. The same countermagic package. The same (actually more intense with KotR) mana denial package.

I've said it once, and I'll repeat it again. If you look at this deck as a Bant deck first, then you're misinterpreting it. It's like misassigning your role in a matchup, playing the beatdown when you should be the control or vice versa. This deck needs to be looked at like it's a Merfolk deck first. When you do that, you can make more manageable comparisons, like "why is this better than Merfolk," and "how is X creature in here better than Y creature in Merfolk." When you make those comparisons, it becomes obvious. This deck doesn't weaken matchups that were already good for Merfolk, but it signifcantly improves matchups that were bad for Merfolk.

Just to be clear: this deck doesn't abuse Vial nearly as well as Merfolk.

Lastly, while playing around Counterbalance is important, I think there are other ways to do this besides Vial (despite Vial being the best answer in the game) which won't require you to sacrifice staples like Brainstorm and StP.

I again, disagree. I think this deck gains just as much value out of Vial as Merfolk does. In fact, I feel like it abuses Vial even more, because I can singlehandly destroy my own manabase with KotR if I have a Vial in play to either destroy my opponent's manabase, draw cards, or both. Also, this deck can Vial in extremely big guys; with Merfolk, you can anticipate (at least somewhat) the size of the Merfolk players creature(s) if they Vial in a lord. In here, the opponent never knows what to expect, which makes combat math much more difficult for the opponent to read.

Also, the point of this deck isn't to specifically beat CounterTop. I mean it is, but it isn't. The point of this deck is to beat blue decks in general, which can include CounterTop, but isn't limited to. There may be other ways to beat CounterTop, but this is the best way to beat blue decks in general (as evidenced by Merfolk's dominance). The fact that I still beat Merfolk's good matchups (Combo, CounterTop, Control), but now I beat Merfolk's worst matchup too (Zoo)... I don't see why this idea is catching so much flak. I mean, I know people hate change, and my outside the box thinking is, well... outside the box, but still.

I guess I'll just leave it at that. If I keep seeing the same things over and over, like 20 posts that tell me I'm dumb for not running Swords to Plowshares, I'll just let the thread die. I know this deck rapes faces, but I'm not going to keep defending the same deckbuilding choice over and over until my face turns blue. I'll just keep playing with it and winning, while people keep playing their inferior Merfolk and Vial-less Bant Aggro decks.

lordofthepit

01-03-2011, 07:08 PM

Koby

01-03-2011, 07:10 PM

Reasons why I like this deck:
Makes FoW, Daze and Wasteland all really awesome.

Reasons I don't like this deck:
No answers to Turn 1 Lackey and resolved fliers (Tombstalker, I'm looking at you).

I was thinking during play about how much Vial would be great in a deck that's streamlined as I was playing Bant Aggro over the weekend. I'll give it a shot with 3 AEther Vials and see how it's working out.

Also, a suggestion for the 2cc slot; Spellstutter Sprite to continue the punishment of the countermagic. Also, flying is starting to get important in creature feature decks. It's also got a fairly easy mana cost if you need to hard cast. Synergy with Cliques too.

Hanni

01-03-2011, 07:26 PM

Really like the deck.

Have you tried Coralhelm Commander in the 2cc slot dude?
1 - he's blue.
2 - he's 2cc.
3 - he get's to be a 4/4.
4? - When he's pumped to max, he gives Selkie +1/+1.

Just seems like a solid beater, even without the other Merfolks.

I'm a fan of this as well. Hanni, have you playtested Coralhelm, or do you have any reason to believe it wouldn't work?

Have not playtested it yet, but I also like the idea, so I will try it out.

Reasons I don't like this deck:
No answers to Turn 1 Lackey and resolved fliers (Tombstalker, I'm looking at you).

I concede the weakness to turn 1 Lackey without Swords, which is one of the few cases where I do wish I ran it.

Getting beat by Tombstalker requires specific situations to be met, though, like the opponent having alot of chump blockers. Normally, a single Rhox War Monk races a Tombstalker, let alone a massive Exalted Knight of the Reliquary.

I'll give it a shot with 3 AEther Vials and see how it's working out.

I'd really advise against this. Vial is the best card in the deck, you should run 4. You always want to see a Vial in your opener, and a second Vial is always welcome (having one set for 2 and one set for 3 is awesome). Not to mention, if they blow your first Vial up with a Qasali or something. I'd never run less than 4 Vials in this deck.

Koby

01-03-2011, 07:30 PM

I have 3 Vials in my collection. If I like the results from limited playtesting, then I'll go for the 4th. As of right now, I see it thusly:

Noble Hierarch and AEther Vial both serve the same function: creature ramp. I'm a bit skeptical about the list, and will go ahead and test the plan. I've been playing with lots of Bant aggro setups in the last few weeks, so it's getting tricky to evaluate which variant I prefer.

Except CBtop. G-d I hate spinning Top 6 times a turn digging for some bullshit answer. Proactive > reactive.

Hanni

01-03-2011, 07:44 PM

I have 3 Vials in my collection.

Fair enough.

It won't take you long to long to figure out how rediculously good Vial is, though.

As of right now, I see it thusly:

Noble Hierarch and AEther Vial both serve the same function: creature ramp.

Agreed. The deck is very mana hungry, 6 of its lands can be used as spells instead of tapping for mana, Knight of the Reliquary can turn excess lands into land destruction or card draw midgame, and Noble Hierarch adds Exalted triggers. Considering the decks heavy mana requirements too (GW, UW, UGW, etc), the mana ramp works beautifully. You want an acceleration piece turn 1, and running both Hierarch and Vial make that plan consistent.

Hanni

01-05-2011, 12:08 AM

Okay, so I tested Coralhelm Commander. Coralhelm Commander is fucking awesome in this deck. Amazing suggestion, Scatman X.

UU is pretty easy to get, and even as a 2/2 at first, he's still solid. The deck typically has excess mana sources available because of Hierarch and Vial, and Coralhelm usually utilizes otherwised unused mana. Even if pumping him does conflict with being able to drop a creature, it's usually not a big deal. Having 5 flying creatures now has been the difference in several games, and I definitely see his spot being solidified until they print something better.

from Cairo

01-05-2011, 12:38 AM

Honestly, I don't really like the design of this deck (no StP, janky 2cc drops), but reading through the thread I can appreciate what you're saying about wanting to have access to the Green and White creatures (NH, QP, Goyf, KotR) while maintaining a high Blue card count for Force of Will.

With that in mind have you considered Stormscape Apprentice? I'm pulling this idea from Death and Taxes' use of Goldmeadow Harrier, which I found to be pretty solid as 1cc creatures 5-6 in that deck. Perhaps as a 2-of in place of 1x Coralhelm Commander and 1x Vendilion Clique (since you now have Coralhelm to break ground stand offs)? As it is your Aether Vial only has Noble Hierarch to curve out with, and it sort of bulks out at 2 and 3 drops, which is fine when Vial sticks and stays in play, but maybe lowering the curve a bit would give you a bit more stability.

Just something that came to mind that I didn't see listed in your tested cards.

Greenpoe

01-05-2011, 12:55 AM

Looter il-kor is another option. Discard a land for KOTR or to buff Goyf, discard extra vials or late-game Dazes and he carries equipment like a champ.

2Rach

01-05-2011, 01:14 AM

Most Merfolk lists these days don't even run Standstill's anymore (they run Coralhelm Commander instead)
I haven't seen this. The good lists I've seen win mostly because of Standstill(s)+stuff. The old lists just took out sub-par Sovereigns or Wake Thrashers and/or some other techy stuff to stick them in, definitely not the Standstills.

Glad someone suggested Coralhelms over the absolutely horrible esper exalted knights. I was going to but decided not to post(until now).

If I didn't like Hymning other people so much, I would test Hymning(FOW) myself with this deck. I like the deck a lot, good luck with it!

SMR0079

01-05-2011, 03:47 AM

Kudos for putting the pieces together.

We are going to test without Heirarch. Fish doesn't need them, and your curve is very similar.

Hanni

01-05-2011, 05:58 AM

With that in mind have you considered Stormscape Apprentice? I'm pulling this idea from Death and Taxes' use of Goldmeadow Harrier, which I found to be pretty solid as 1cc creatures 5-6 in that deck. Perhaps as a 2-of in place of 1x Coralhelm Commander and 1x Vendilion Clique (since you now have Coralhelm to break ground stand offs)? As it is your Aether Vial only has Noble Hierarch to curve out with, and it sort of bulks out at 2 and 3 drops, which is fine when Vial sticks and stays in play, but maybe lowering the curve a bit would give you a bit more stability.

I haven't tested any additional 1 drops. Whether or not that would strengthen the curve of the deck, I don't know. What I do know is that Merfolk only runs four 1 drops (Cursecatcher), but that could be because there are no other good 1 drop Merfolk. However, this deck does run a total of 11 1cc spells, so its not completely lacking. With the 8 acceleration pieces/mana ramp, I haven't had a problem with the clump at 2cc and 3cc. Merfolk runs the same curve, except they don't run Noble Hierarch, so this deck actually ramps into its guys easier than they do.

Another thing I'd like to point out is just how resilient this deck is against a Chalice @ 1, which has come up several times now in testing.

Looter il-kor is another option. Discard a land for KOTR or to buff Goyf, discard extra vials or late-game Dazes and he carries equipment like a champ.

That's another possibility for the 2cc blue creature spot that I hadn't thought of, nice one. However, I'm still thinking Coralhelm is going to be my solidified 2cc blue creature until they print something new. Coralhelm is very aggressive, especially with the additional Exalted triggers. A 3/3 body isn't bad on defense, and at 4/4, he even dodges Bolt.

I haven't seen this. The good lists I've seen win mostly because of Standstill(s)+stuff. The old lists just took out sub-par Sovereigns or Wake Thrashers and/or some other techy stuff to stick them in, definitely not the Standstills.

Glad someone suggested Coralhelms over the absolutely horrible esper exalted knights. I was going to but decided not to post(until now).

If I didn't like Hymning other people so much, I would test Hymning(FOW) myself with this deck. I like the deck a lot, good luck with it!

I could start digging for tournament results from lists without Standstill, and linking to posts from the Merfolk thread where players started cutting it. Fact is, Standstill is strong in matchups Merfolk was already strong in, and bad in their bad matchups.

However, I won't delve too much into this. This list does have some differences from Merfolk, and I do not think the deck needs a conditional draw spell. If for whatever reason I did, I'd be looking into fitting Brainstorm.

Glad someone suggested Coralhelms over the absolutely horrible esper exalted knights. I was going to but decided not to post(until now).

The Knight's weren't horrible in testing, and I also briefly tested with Esper Stormblade. Esper wasn't bad, since it was often a 3/2 flyer, but Coralhelm has been more consistent in testing.

We are going to test without Heirarch. Fish doesn't need them, and your curve is very similar.

Fish doesn't run Hierarch because it has Cursecatcher to fill its 1-drop slot, there are no mana dorks in mono blue, and splashing green for a mana dork would be a bad idea.

In my testing with this deck, Hierarch has been amazing, and I wouldn't cut them. 8 acceleration pieces increases the consistency of playing one on turn 1, and the mana ramp has been highly relevant for my success with this deck. Secondly, the Exalted triggers have proved invaluable, allowing me to be more aggressive offensively by pushing a single Goyf or whatever past defending Goyfs or whatever, while allowing the rest of my guys to stay back on defense. Since I lack real removal, swinging with 1 really big guy and holding back another big guy has been a very productive playstyle so far.

If you are cutting Hierarch, what are you replacing them with? Please tell me Mother of Runes, because that's the only possible 1 drop I would ever cut Hierarch for.

TheSleeper

01-05-2011, 06:19 AM

Just wanted to say cheers to Hanni for putting this together. I'd thought about doing something similar awhile back (more GWu tbh) when I saw UW Tempo taking off, but never got around to it for whatever reason (lack of creativity, motivation, etc). Look forward to testing your list though. Not sure if you mentioned it already but would you consider 3 NO + 1 Prog. either Main or SB? Against Zoo for example, the counter-magic suite doesn't seem that strong (Force a Bolt? Daze.. hardly anything, etc), where NO would be an extra trump. If not that, what about Kira, something Merfolk employed to help protect its guys from removal?

Koby

01-05-2011, 11:06 AM

Kira is pretty good against targeted removal and even Jitte. It maybe a better 3 drop for this deck than Clique to alleviate concerns about Zoo matchups for the maindeck. Against control we can board into Vendilion Clique(s) and swap with Kira.

Any thoughts on sideboard strategies? I'll start off some discussion:

2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jitte/SoFI
4 Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile (preference call, I'd rather give them life than give them an extra land to pay for Daze/Wasteland)
2 Jace TMS
1 Elspeth
1 Island (to support the extra 4 drops)
3 Meddling Mage/Ethersworn Canonist

I don't see the need for much graveyard removal versus Dredge as countering their spells usually gets the job done. And unless Venguition decks start performing well in large amounts, I don't see the need for hate against them either. Loam decks perhaps, but with AEther Vial and counters, we could hold them off from any creature removal long enough perhaps.

Shimi

01-05-2011, 03:08 PM

SlopeeJ

01-05-2011, 03:42 PM

Umm I will try to find sometime to test this deck , Hanni could I ask some questions?

1)Merfolks has Standstill and you not, did you missed some CA??
2)Folks are U/x or MonoU, your manabase(and vials and nobles) can really suport it?
3)How are the games you can't play vial??

Thx.

I've been testing this online all morning, seems to me the mana base is a weakness... Not to mention no broken stuff like vial standstill and reejerey tricks. True the creatures are bigger but they have no synergy like the Merfolk hord. Not saying this deck is bad, just what I have noticed in my morning of testing. (I'm noob with the deck) Vial standstill just seems to good not to run, vialing in fatties seems good.

I would also like to say that submerge is probably needed and maybe some echoing truths. I guess swords would work, but submerge is my favorite card out of my merfolk list

Moczoc

01-05-2011, 04:43 PM

Two more ideas for the Coralhelm Commander Slot: Voidmage Prodigy / Azorious Guildmage

Hanni

01-05-2011, 05:38 PM

Not sure if you mentioned it already but would you consider 3 NO + 1 Prog. either Main or SB? Against Zoo for example, the counter-magic suite doesn't seem that strong (Force a Bolt? Daze.. hardly anything, etc), where NO would be an extra trump. If not that, what about Kira, something Merfolk employed to help protect its guys from removal?

The NO/Prog plan could be ran instead of the SFM/Equip plan in the sideboard, to deal with aggro decks. I have not tested that yet, but it seems like another viable option, and takes up the same amount of space.

Against Zoo, the countermagic suite actually is pretty strong. Force of Will isn't so hot, since it's card disadvantage, but Pierce and Daze are solid in combination with Wasteland. On the play, turn 1 Vial, Daze their Wild Nacatl generates alot of tempo. Or, turn 1 Noble Hierarch, turn 2 Goyf, Spell Pierce their Path to Exile is also strong.

Kira is good against Rock decks with 4 Swords 4 Vindicate, or other decks with a large density of unconditional removal (Smother, Path to Exile, etc). Against Zoo, Kira isn't really necessary; their Bolts really don't do much unless they are using Bolts and trading guys, or double Bolt'ing, in which case, I'm coming out ahead anyway. Until The Rock and similar midrange removal heavy decks start seeing more play, I'd say Kira is unecessary. If your meta is heavy in The Rock style decks, Kira would be a fine choice.

The Zoo matchup is already favorable preboard, and although it is likely overkill, I cut 4 FoW for the 2/1/1 SFM/Jitte/SoFI package postboard.

I finally got a chance to playtest against Goblins yesterday, playing two sets with Vandalize (Sourcer). I 2-0'd the first game set, and 1-1'd the second one (I couldn't finish it out). The one loss was very close, and had I played a little differently (grabbing Jitte with SFM instead of SoFI), I may have won the game.

My SB plan for Goblins is to cut 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Force of Will for 3 Meddling Mage and the SFM/Equip package.

I don't see the need for much graveyard removal versus Dredge as countering their spells usually gets the job done. And unless Venguition decks start performing well in large amounts, I don't see the need for hate against them either. Loam decks perhaps, but with AEther Vial and counters, we could hold them off from any creature removal long enough perhaps.

I'd still run at least 1 Bojuka Bog, because the deck can tutor for it with Knight of the Reliquary. Why leave a matchup like Dredge to chance, when the deck can essentially have 5 copies of Bojuka Bog?

Cutting down to 3 Meddling Mage will probably end up being the right way to go, since the deck really doesn't need that much more help against combo. The same can be said for Selkie (going down to 3, I mean). I still prefer Meddling Mage over Cannonist because Meddling Mage is blue and is a little more versatile (useful in more matchups than just Storm, like against Show and Tell decks).

Umm I will try to find sometime to test this deck , Hanni could I ask some questions?

1)Merfolks has Standstill and you not, did you missed some CA??
2)Folks are U/x or MonoU, your manabase(and vials and nobles) can really suport it?
3)How are the games you can't play vial??
Thx.

1) I have not found myself wishing I had extra draw very often, and in the few times where I may have wanted the extra draw, Standstill would have been worthless because my opponent had pressure on the board. If I felt I wanted a draw effect, I'd fit in Brainstorm's, but I don't feel like I need the extra draw. The thing about the extra draw is, I don't need to swarm the board like Merfolk does. Dropping a single Knight of the Reliquary is often enough to win the game, for example, whereas Merfolk requires multiple Merfolk's in play to be relevant. The difference in card quality makes me less dependant on card advantage than Merfolk.

2) My manabase has been rock solid for me. I have only had a limited number of games where I've experienced mana screw, but that happens to all decks. The combination of Noble Hierarch and Aether Vial go a long way to stabilizing my manabase.

3) Well, I always wish for the turn 1 Vial starts, but the deck can function just fine without it. The deck is still a Bant deck, it still has Noble Hierarch for mana ramp, still has countermagic, and still has fatties. The deck doesn't generate as much tempo without Vial, but it still has a strong beatdown plan.

I've been testing this online all morning, seems to me the mana base is a weakness...

That's unfortunate to hear, what were your matchups like, and what kind of hands were you keeping? I haven't had many manabases issues, and I've played alot of games with this deck in the last week or so, even against decks with Wastelands and so forth.

Not to mention no broken stuff like vial standstill and reejerey tricks.

Standstill isn't broken, especially not against an opponent's turn 1 Wild Nacatl or turn 1 Goblin Lackey.

Reejery tricks are cool, tapping the opponent down so you're 3/3's can swing is nice. This deck does have its own broken tricks too, though, with Knight of the Reliquary + Wasteland/Horizon Canopy, Lifelink + Exalted triggers, etc. I love blowing up Moat's with Qasali Pridemage, too.

True the creatures are bigger but they have no synergy like the Merfolk hord.

The creatures are Bant creatures, they aren't a Tribal theme, so yes, they don't have synergy amongst themsevles. That's why they are amazing stand alone threats, but I'd argue that the utility that each one offers, in combination with Exalted triggers, more than makes up for it. The Bant creature base is better than a couple of 2/2 Lords that turn eachother into two 3/3's, if you ask me.

(I'm noob with the deck)

Don't worry, the deck doesn't have a steep learning curve. In fact, the deck is pretty linear. There are obviously some pro interactions, like Vial'ing in a Clique in response to the opponent tapping their Vial, or effectively using Knight of the Reliquary (when to grab Wasteland, etc). But for the most part, it's just drop guy after guy and swing.

I would also like to say that submerge is probably needed and maybe some echoing truths. I guess swords would work, but submerge is my favorite card out of my merfolk list

Swords and Submerge could both be good sideboard options depending on your metagame. I prefer the SFM/Equip plan (or possibly even NO/Prog) in the sideboard instead, but that's just me.

Two more ideas for the Coralhelm Commander Slot: Voidmage Prodigy / Azorious Guildmage

I considered Azorius Guildmage, but his ability is too expensive and he never grows past a 2/2 body (without Exalted triggers).

Voidmage Prodigy, meh. I want a guy who's good against aggro, good at beating down, decent on defense if necessary. Coralhelm seems like the real deal to me right now.

SlopeeJ

01-05-2011, 09:08 PM

That's unfortunate to hear, what were your matchups like, and what kind of hands were you keeping? I haven't had many manabases issues, and I've played alot of games with this deck in the last week or so, even against decks with Wastelands and so forth.

Any deck with wasteland and I don't draw vial. Even when I drew noble heirarch the mana is still pretty entensive. I doubt that you haven't had problems with wasteland decks with you not running a single basic. You are not going to draw vial every game.

I was referring to the synergy of the swarm effect with the merfolk creatures.

Hanni

01-05-2011, 09:20 PM

Any deck with wasteland and I don't draw vial. Even when I drew noble heirarch the mana is still pretty entensive. I doubt that you haven't had problems with wasteland decks with you not running a single basic. You are not going to draw vial every game.

I don't remember who wrote a mini article on it before, but someone talked about how playing nothing but duals is often better than having singleton basics, because you're opponent is still going to tag one of your lands with Wasteland regardless. At least with 3 duals in play, that Wasteland doesn't cut you off of colored sources.

As far as the manabase goes, you're right, the deck doesn't draw Vial every game. However, with 4 Noble Hierarch and 4 Aether Vial, the deck is essentially running 28 mana sources, 4 of which produce more than 1 source of mana. Like I said, I haven't had too many issues with my manabase. Every deck has manabase issues from time to time, so I'm not saying I haven't had issues. I just haven't experienced any significant issues, nothing more frequent than I experience with other similar decks.

ScatmanX

01-06-2011, 07:15 AM

I finally got a chance to playtest against Goblins yesterday, playing two sets with Vandalize (Sourcer). I 2-0'd the first game set, and 1-1'd the second one (I couldn't finish it out). The one loss was very close, and had I played a little differently (grabbing Jitte with SFM instead of SoFI), I may have won the game.

My SB plan for Goblins is to cut 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Force of Will for 3 Meddling Mage and the SFM/Equip package.
As a goblin player, I don't see Medling Mage being good, and would certainly leave the FoW's in, specially against the Rb versions, that run Perish.
Goblins usualy have 2-3 removal cards to get rid of Mage, and 2 other to get around it (Lackey and Vial).

Mana Drain

01-06-2011, 12:53 PM

I don't remember who wrote a mini article on it before, but someone talked about how playing nothing but duals is often better than having singleton basics, because you're opponent is still going to tag one of your lands with Wasteland regardless. At least with 3 duals in play, that Wasteland doesn't cut you off of colored sources.

I agree with this 1000%. Basics are most helpful at fighting off Waste-lock, but they don't minimize the impact of Wasteland unless you have 1 of each color out or you're fetching them on T1 to make sure you have a 2-drop next turn. But strictly due to the fact that you run 8-9 3 drops with multiple colors, I really think cutting a Corralhelm/u-2 drop creature for an additional fetch/dual would be a good idea. It's not that you won't draw a Vial/Heirarch often enough, it's what happens when your Vial gets Needled/EEed/removed or your Hierarch gets Bolted/StP'd/removed and you have 1/2 3-drops in hand. 17 non-Waste lands for insurance purposes.

Also, for the Corralhelm spot that you're looking for a replacement for, has Gilded Drake been considered? You'll always have the biggest dudes on the field against Tribal, but stealing a Goyf/KotR/other fat dude against other Mid-range decks seems good, while also pitching to FoW of course. Any time you'd be trading your Drake away, you'd be stealling something that could kill it in combat. Just an idea anyway.

Cool deck Hanni, I've been trying to make Vial Bant work for ever, but couldn't fit in enough disruption to make it work.

miko

01-06-2011, 12:55 PM

I like the idea a lot. Put the most powerful bant creatures into one deck. Nice.
The only thing that does not seem right to me is Vendilion Clique. Why do you not cut the one off and ad another pierce instead? What do you think?

Btw.: This deck needs to be played...

GoboLord

01-06-2011, 01:22 PM

Note: if someone had already thought if this idea before, I appologize. I have never seen this idea before, and I'm assuming its still original.

Hey there,

I really like this idea. Me (together with a friend of mine) worked out a deck that was very similar to yours although your version seems much better (in part cause the quality of your mid-range creatures is better).
Here is the list (4th placed on June 20th) , maybe you find it helpful.
I found Spellstutter Sprite to be a very good protection against cc1 removal (L.Bolt, StoP, PtE, Innocent Blood etc.).
Vial-Bant aka "Auto.org" (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2010-06-T15.html)

Note: The reason for this post is to help you improving a deck-concept that we found great (but unfortunately didn't devolpe any further) and not to claim that we are the original "inventors" of this deck. The actual lists share a concept but are very different in their cardchoices.

menace13

01-06-2011, 02:10 PM

Hanni

01-06-2011, 05:30 PM

As a goblin player, I don't see Medling Mage being good, and would certainly leave the FoW's in, specially against the Rb versions, that run Perish.
Goblins usualy have 2-3 removal cards to get rid of Mage, and 2 other to get around it (Lackey and Vial).

I only cut the Force of Will's because I have to. There are no non-blue cards I want to cut for the SFM/Equip package, and cutting 4 blue cards to fit them puts me at 16 blue spells for Force of Will, which is not enough.

I also cut the Spell Pierce's, because they aren't very good against Goblins, and Meddling Mage is the only relevant card in the sideboard to bring in; MMage is a body. Mage can sometimes be great if I know what sideboard cards my opponent brings in (like Perish), and if I keep my opponent off of Vial, I can even name bombs like Matron and Ringleader. Against the black splash builds that run Warren Weirding as their primary removal, Meddling Mage naming Weirding is pretty strong too.

Also, for the Corralhelm spot that you're looking for a replacement for, has Gilded Drake been considered?

I'm not really looking for a replacement for Coralhlem. I was looking for a replacement for Ethercaste Knight, and Coralhelm is that replacement. I'll add Gilded Drake to the long list of possible 2cc blue creatures, but I'm going to continue playing with Coralhelm Commander for now. After I do alot more playtesting with Coralhelm, I'll start trying the other suggestions people have given me. I'm fairly confidant that CC is the man for that spot though.

The only thing that does not seem right to me is Vendilion Clique. Why do you not cut the one off and ad another pierce instead? What do you think?

I actually like the singleton Clique, so for me personally, I'll keep it as a 1-of. If you'd like to cut him for the 4th Spell Pierce, that's fine too.

Note: The reason for this post is to help you improving a deck-concept that we found great (but unfortunately didn't devolpe any further) and not to claim that we are the original "inventors" of this deck. The actual lists share a concept but are very different in their cardchoices.

That's fine, I'm not really worried about being original or not.

As far as the decklist you linked to, I had considered Trygon Predator and Rafiq already, and may revisit those options later in the future.

It was Dave Price, who totally jacked someone's article on CFB to write in the comments section, one of the better mini articles ever.

Yea, you're right. That Stephen guy, who wrote that hilarious set of articles. Hahahaha, oh the memories.

lordofthepit

01-07-2011, 02:24 AM

luckme10

01-07-2011, 07:28 AM

Interesting deck Hanni. I have to admit Coralhelm Commander seems like a strange fit. Then again, it seemed like a strange fit for merfolk when it was released.
Edit: after playtesting, I can see why you want a big blue beater here.

Admittingly, it's a strange feeling overextending with bant; vial+hierarch is crazy. Not aggro elves/ affinity crazy, but definitely the fasted aggro control i've seen.

I think if you're trying to get this deck to run like merfolk, you definitely need some way(s) to replenish your hand. I really found myself missing brainstorm and to a lesser extend StP. The card advantage/filtering in general becomes really important when all that's left in your hand are spare aether vials and spells you wish you could pitch. Merfolk uses standstill and silvergill adept, goblins uses ringleader, even affinity has thoughtcast. Running out of cards in the middle of an attrition battle is never fun... Perhaps something even stronger than brainstorm may be necessary - though I do like being able to tuck away those multiple aether vials and dazes. I tested standstill against the weak matchups and you were right, it still seems too slow against the faster aggro in the format.

As for continuing ideas on what to do with that turn 5 spare mana..
What about Jenara, Asura of War? Jenara seems like could be a more efficient card over some Rhox war monks because of the excess mana (sometimes even with the commander in play!). With the Commander, that could make the deck Bant-Super Gro, lol.

Oh and merfolk has been dying for another one drop. Ideally, we've been trying to hit that sligh curve on single casts since cutting tidal warrior... Print my stifle on a stick please! or Crystalline merfolk... or merfolk lackey :)

Hanni

01-07-2011, 05:39 PM

Hanni, how's the Goblins matchup? It looks like it can be potentially problematic if they get an explosive start, since you have no removal for Lackey, and they have 8 ways to cheat creatures in through countermagic. Of course, your fatties can make it very difficult on them.

It looks like the plan in games 2 and 3 are to drop an equipment and win once it connects, but would Dueling Ground be another option? It's a bit narrower, but in the combo matchup, it pretty much fully stabilizes you as soon as it drops, whereas Jitte/Sword usually need two turns to connect and start whittling down the Goblin hordes.

I don't have as much playtesting against Goblins as I'd like to, but from what I have tested, I feel very comfortable with that matchup. Lackey starts can be a problem, but the deck has ways to win games where the opponent does get a Lackey start. First of all, whether the opponent is on the play or draw is very relevant. Secondly, whether or not the opponent has removal for my blocker is also relevant. Lastly, it really depends on what the opponent is capable of putting into play with the Lackey. At the end of the day, Goblins still lays down a bunch of 1/1's, and I effectively lay down a bunch of big guys that can block them. Flying (Coralhelm/Clique) is very valuable at pushing damage through their horde of chump blockers, and having a solid wall of defense is very valuable at preventing them from pushing damage through.

The fact that Goblins is far more mana hungry than my deck (higher curve) makes them more dependant on key spells (Lackey/Vial/Warchief). I won several games against Goblins by destroying their Vial with Qasali, blowing up a land or two with Wasteland, and simply developing my board position better than them.

Games 2 and 3 are played out similar to game 1, I hope to slow down their development while I advance my own, set up a solid defense, and swing through when I can (preferably with a flyer). Drawing into SFM/Equips helps alot, since that package provides alot of card advantage and creature control.

I had considered Dueling Grounds before, and its still a viable option, but I think SFM/Equips is more widely applicable (useful in more matchups), and with Dueling Grounds, I'm still dependant on flying to push damage through. With SFM/Equips, I can destroy their board and push damage through without necessarily having a flyer.

Edit: What do you guys do with a hand that contains both Vial and Hierarch (assuming enough gas)? Is a good rule of thumb, lead with Vial if playing against counters, with Hierarch if against combo? What about fast aggro like Goblins, Zoo, or Affinity?

I love hands with both Vial and Hierarch, because that means I'm capable of using my Vial on 1 counter. While I may not need the extra mana from Hierarch if I have a Vial going, the additional Exalted trigger is never a bad thing.

I almost always lead out with Vial, because it enables the deck to generate far more mana after the first few turns of the game. Against combo, this deck has enough tempo to slow them down to where I'm capable of getting full value from Vial. However, if I have a Spell Pierce in hand, depending on the combo matchup, I may elect to hold U open instead (depending on the rest of my hand, who went first, etc).

Against fast aggro, unless Goblins has a Lackey start, Vial is the best turn 1 play. Against almost all matchups, Vial is the best turn 1 play.

Edit #2: Have you ever wanted to have a single basic to fetch with Path to Exile? I think David Price mentioned in his mini-article that he included a basic Forest for that reason (and not to get around Wasteland).

Yes actually, I do get hit by Path to Exile and wish I had a basic land I could grab. Working in a basic Forest for that reason would be a good idea, although I'm not sure right now how I want to fit one in.

Edit: after playtesting, I can see why you want a big blue beater here.

Big blue flying beater. :)

Admittingly, it's a strange feeling overextending with bant; vial+hierarch is crazy. Not aggro elves/ affinity crazy, but definitely the fasted aggro control i've seen.

If you think this is the fastest aggro/control, I'd recommend playing around with U/B/g Intuition Vengevine. That deck is crazy fast. However, that deck lacks the stability that this deck has.

Vial + Hierarch is pretty nasty though. Keep in mind that you don't have to overextend, especially if you're playing against a [control] deck that can sweep the board. This deck is perfectly fine dropping only 1-2 guys at a time. However, overextending against aggro decks is pretty baller.

think if you're trying to get this deck to run like merfolk, you definitely need some way(s) to replenish your hand.

I disagree. I want this deck to beat the same matchups Merfolk beats, and it does, but I don't think this deck needs the same draw as Merfolk. Merfolk is forced to overextend because its creatures are weak by themselves, whereas this deck can plop down a 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary, who is sufficient on his own. Additionally, this deck does have draw, in the form of Horizon Canopy. Even sac'ing excess lands to Wasteland's can be a form of draw, since you're still exchanging excess lands for business. Postboard, the deck can use SFM/Equips for card advantage against aggro, Meddling Mage for card advantage against combo, and Selki for card advantage against blue decks.

What about Jenara, Asura of War?

Jenara does look pretty good, I'll look into playtesting her some. I'm not sure if I'd want to cut 1 CC, 1 RWM, or the 1 Clique, but I'll figure something out.

Draener

01-08-2011, 02:58 AM

Hanni

01-08-2011, 08:25 PM

Absolute Law Seems like your best possible sideboard choice against goblins. All my guys are unblockable and indestructible for white colorless? Seems good. Also consider cutting the vendillion clique and possibly a pridemage/warmonk for two Sylvan Library. It is good card advantage on it's own, and when teamed up with either warmonk or them having to swords a knight, it is absolutely insane.

Absolute would be good against Merfolk, not doubt. The problem is, it's very limited in scope. SFM/Equips answers a wider variety of matchups. I bring in SFM/Equips against a ton of jank and Tier 1.5 matchups, like Zoo, Faeries, UW Tempo, Zoo, Death and Taxes, and a bunch of other matchups.

Sylvan Library goes against my philosophy with this deck, which is to cut chaff for threat density. Sylvan Library might be good, but I think Brainstorm would be a much better card for this deck, and I don't even run that.

On an unrelated note, I've cut 1 Coralhelm Commander for 1 Jenara, Asura of War. It has been working beautifully, thanks for the suggestion, luckme10.

Oh, and for the record, I lost a game to Enchantress today 1-2 because I didn't SB for game 2 (blew him out so bad I didn't know what he was playing in game 1), and misboarded in game 3. The loss in game 3 was due to the fact that I forgot Moat existed. Yes, Moat is a card. I boarded out all of my flyers for Meddling Mage thinking that Solitary Confinement was the only backbreaker. Turns out I was wrong.

My board plan vs Enchantress is:

-4 Rhox War Monk
-1 Tarmogoyf or Noble Hierarch (haven't decided yet)
+4 Meddling Mage
+1 Bojuka Bog

Including my loss to Enchantress, I've gone 14-1 today, including beating Goblins 2-1. In the matchup against Goblins, he was playing Mono Red, and had a turn 1 Lackey all 3 games.

At this point, I have to wonder, why has this deck not gained any popularity? This is, hands down, the best deck in the format. I guess I'll just let it be a sleeper until I can afford to buy the cards for it, and then start dominating Top 8's of every major tournament...

arebennian

01-08-2011, 09:23 PM

Including my loss to Enchantress, I've gone 14-1 today, including beating Goblins 2-1. In the matchup against Goblins, he was playing Mono Red, and had a turn 1 Lackey all 3 games.

At this point, I have to wonder, why has this deck not gained any popularity? This is, hands down, the best deck in the format. I guess I'll just let it be a sleeper until I can afford to buy the cards for it, and then start dominating Top 8's of every major tournament...

And

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19657-[Article]-Stifle-and-Wasteland&p=512803&highlight=#post512803

If you take Merfolk's shell and cut the Merfolk for Bant creatures, you end up with a deck that still has Merfolk's amazing tempo, but has a much better creature base. This is something I've only recently discovered, and have been playtesting with. I'm suprised that no one else has thought of the idea and put it into motion. The deck beats Merfolk's bad matchups (Zoo/Goblins), and still beats Merfolk's good matchups (Control/Combo). However, I'll leave it at that, since I have a thread in N&D to discuss that deck (U/G/W Vial Bant).

I'll let you work out who you sound like and which deck they were spruiking...

Hanni

01-08-2011, 09:26 PM

Huh? What are you smoking...?

arebennian

01-08-2011, 09:39 PM

Think harder

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2894-Great-Source-Quotes-You-love-em&p=457816&viewfull=1#post457816

arebennian

01-08-2011, 09:41 PM

In all seriousness though, I wouldn't be too suprised. You started the tread a week ago. Caleb hit the top8 at the GP and it took 1-2 months before that wrecking ball hit full speed.

The deck you propose is:
a) Not as powerful
b) Doesn't have the obvious broken strategy that make people want to jump on the band wagon.

Hanni

01-08-2011, 09:43 PM

How does that have anything to do with the Stifle + Wasteland discussion thread?

Regardless, this deck actually DOES beat almost everything. I'm not trying to act arrogant like the guys in the UW Tempo thread, I'm merely speaking from actual playtesting experience. I've dipped my hands into alot of Koolaids in Legacy, I'm not some new guy. If you disagree with my stance on this deck, you can either playtest yourself to come to the same conclusions, or think I'm a nutcase. Either way, I don't care. Fact is, this deck continues to demolish everything I throw it against.

In all seriousness though, I wouldn't be too suprised. You started the tread a week ago. Caleb hit the top8 at the GP and it took 1-2 months before that wrecking ball hit full speed.

The deck you propose is:
a) Not as powerful
b) Doesn't have the obvious broken strategy that make people want to jump on the band wagon.

Vengevival was a different deck. It had different weaknesses and strengths. That deck just abused the fact that Vengevine as a card is broken, backed up by a slow but powerful midgame engine.

This deck is different. It takes a deck that was already positioned very well in the format (Merfolk), so well that it's a Tier 1 DTB (Merfolk), and turns its horrible bad matchups into favorable matchups. Vengevival still had some problems, and was vulnerable to certain hate.

Regardless, Survival is banned, and this deck is legal. So what's your point, exactly?

EDIT: My post might seem hostile, but when you compare me and my thread to the UW Tempo thread and the UW Tempo guys, I get very fucking hostile.

EDIT 2: Just realized that your second "in all seriousness" post was not a personal attack. My applogies. I still don't take kindly to UW Tempo references, FYI.

arebennian

01-08-2011, 10:01 PM

How does that have anything to do with the Stifle + Wasteland discussion thread?

The fact that your posting in different threads about how great your deck is has something to do with it. Something the U/W dudes did.

Regardless, this deck actually DOES beat almost everything. I'm not trying to act arrogant like the guys in the UW Tempo thread, I'm merely speaking from actual playtesting experience.

Funny. That's what they were saying too.

I've dipped my hands into alot of Koolaids in Legacy, I'm not some new guy. If you disagree with my stance on this deck, you can either playtest yourself to come to the same conclusions, or think I'm a nutcase. Either way, I just don't give a fuck. Fact is, this deck continues to demolish everything I throw it against.

Great. Congratulations. I'm just poking fun at you. Has the red mist decended? Perhaps I should have been a little less provocative when I wrote 'I'll let you work out who you sound like and which deck they were spruiking...' and thrown a 'starting to' in there.

Vengevival was a different deck. It had different weaknesses and strengths. That deck just abused the fact that Vengevine as a card is broken, backed up by a slow but powerful midgame engine.

This deck is different. It takes a deck that was already positioned very well in the format (Merfolk), so well that it's a Tier 1 DTB (Merfolk), and turns its horrible bad matchups into favorable matchups. Vengevival still had some problems, and was vulnerable to certain hate.

Irregardless, Survival is banned, and this deck is legal. So what's your fucking point, exactly?

I was responding to your question as to why it hasn't taken off. 'At this point, I have to wonder, why has this deck not gained any popularity?'

I used a deck as an example which did take off, noted how long it took, and one of the many reasons why.

EDIT: Thanks for the apology. Agreed on the comparison, but it was close enough to go for it :-)

Hanni

01-08-2011, 10:21 PM

Whatever. You have nothing productive to offer to the discussion of this thread. Please leave, or I will PM a moderator.

mossivo1986

01-08-2011, 11:56 PM

Whatever. You have nothing productive to offer to the discussion of this thread. Please leave, or I will PM a moderator.

ive messeged you twice. get on your aim account so we can talk.

SlopeeJ

01-09-2011, 12:32 AM

K kids lets keep it Civil and talk about the deck...... I've been testing it and some things I have noticed:

1 manabase is still a weakness
2 Merfolk just owns this deck, Submerge owns this deck and Selkie doesn't stop Fish from vialing in 5 lords and winning.
3 I don't think the control match is a good as Merfolks (deeds etc)
4 Vial standstill is to good not to run. Spell pierce doesn't need to be main, you want to drop dudes and swing.

List coming.. On going 75

21 Lands

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

23 Creatures

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

16 Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill

SB

3 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Dueling Grounds
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Possible sb cards
1 Swords to plowshares
2 Tormod's crpyt
1 Bojuka Bog
2-3 other meta game calls

As for my difference from the list on the first page. First I think this deck needs basics, more would be better but with the mana cost of the different creatures that doesn't seem possible. I want to run Horizon canopy but I don't think the manabase can support it and I love vial standstil for card draw. Vial standstill, it is great in Merfolk and is good/better in this deck. You're vialing in fatties and drawing 3 is good. Not great vs merfolk and okay vs goblins, but good in every other matchup. Vial Standstill is better vs goblins because you are vialing in fatties and even if they have vial they are vialing in one creature. This isn't Merfolk you can block pile driver. Obviously you want vial and not them, force/daze/Pridemage

Creatures I think 3 noble is the right number and fatties protected by Kira just wins. Knight isn't that good early and is just chump blocked. I would like to fit in the 4th Pancake Flipper as he wins games, esp with 2 on board. Also vialing in tarmogoyf on turn 2 isn't that awesome, 1/2-2/3 doesn't seem that good. I also don't agree with the 1 Clique, we are not a control deck and I think Clique is bad esp as a 1 of. I also don't like the UU of Coralhelm while also trying to caste the other creatures, but Commander is awesome.

I don't think spell pierce is needed main, doesn't fit the maindeck strategy of dropping creatures and swinging. Unlike Merfolk this deck has arguably the best creature in the game to answer threats you would be spell piercing. You will never have an extra mana to caste spell pierce on the first 3 turns when it shines to beat there counterspells.

Sb... Jitte is still the best equipment and is the best choice 99% of the time. 2/3 of is all that is needed, there isn't enough room for the package. I also think swords is needed, I would like 4 vs aggro matchups. Dueling grounds is probably needed right now with all the fish/goblins. Grip.. you're playing green. Sb is a meta call as always but I def don't think selkie is worth it or meddling mage unless you want to run mage over spell pierce because pridemage/grip answer pretty much everything. Grave hate is probably needed in there somewhere haha.

Overall I like the deck and being an avid fish player for a long time, I like beating zoo, goblins and esp owning Affinity. Not sure how I feel about losing to Merfolk though. I will keep testing this and like it a lot.

Edit... Didn't expect this wall of text when I first started, but those are my thoughts on this deck. Sorry about the post going in every direction :cool:

Nessaja

01-09-2011, 05:00 AM

I see one glaring, obvous, difference between Merfolk decks and your deck. You don't run manlands. Surely this weakens your control matchups somewhat? Not trying to be nitpicky, but Mutavaults are a very strong part of Merfolk decks and their abilitiy to play under standstill; your deck is kind of lacking there, or?

mossivo1986

01-09-2011, 05:08 AM

I don't think spell pierce is needed main, doesn't fit the maindeck strategy of dropping creatures and swinging. Unlike Merfolk this deck has arguably the best creature in the game to answer threats you would be spell piercing. You will never have an extra mana to caste spell pierce on the first 3 turns when it shines to beat there counterspells.

Your logic is incorrect. What you should be saying is this:

As a tempo deck, I play some of the most efficient creatures in bant for the cost. I also have a strong tempo plan IE noble hierarch daze, wasteland, vial, and to a smaller extent spelll pierce. It is in this plan that I need to be able to stop the non creature spells that might wreck my tempo plan IE why spell pierce is played and IE this deck rules the combat zone so why are you afraid to give up a slot to make the combat step even more effective?

SlopeeJ

01-09-2011, 05:43 AM

Your logic is incorrect. What you should be saying is this:

As a tempo deck, I play some of the most efficient creatures in bant for the cost. I also have a strong tempo plan IE noble hierarch daze, wasteland, vial, and to a smaller extent spelll pierce. It is in this plan that I need to be able to stop the non creature spells that might wreck my tempo plan IE why spell pierce is played and IE this deck rules the combat zone so why are you afraid to give up a slot to make the combat step even more effective?

Cool Story Bro...... Explain to me how spell pierce makes "combat step more effective"? I have the same problem in my Merfolk list and the same problem exists in this deck. When do I ever want to hold mana open for spell pierce in the early game when it matters? Spell pierce is bad in Merfolk main and it's worse in this deck with the mana requirements of the creatures. There is a reason why merfolk runs free counters and why this deck does the same. I'm not saying spell pierce is a bad card, I'm saying it's not needed main. Especially with this deck having Pridemage.

What you should be saying is this is an aggro control deck that allows me to use my mana to caste creatures while using my free counters to counter thier stuff, which in turn gains me tempo. All you care about it is stopping stuff that stops your creatures from swinging, holding mana open for spell pierce is tempo loss. So my logic is very correct, tap out playing creatures/vial/standstill and swing. If extra hate is needed bring in grips/spell pierce from the sb. You have 4 answers with pridemage and 8 counterspells, that more run main against hate.

You don't run manlands.
I assume you're referring to my list with standstills and you are correct no manlands. But I do run Aether Vial which is still very strong even without manlands. The manabase can not support manlands. You want vial with standstill so I don't see not having manlands as a big problem. You run fatty creatures that trump a mutavualt all day. I already stated that I think this deck has a worse control matchup.

I think standstill is better then brainstorm in this deck because of the same reasons why I'm not running spell pierce main

Turn 1 vial/creature I don't want to be casting brainstorm, or "gain combat effectiveness" by casting spell pierce
Turn 2 creature, standstill etc..... I don't want to be casting brainstorm, or "gain combat effectiveness" by casting spell pierce
Turn 3 fatty etc..... I don't want to be casting brainstorm, or "gain combat effectiveness" by casting spell pierce
Turn 4 etc etc

Now if this was a control deck needing to find certain cards, then sure spell pierce, snare all the good counters and brainstorm would be run because they can hold back. But that isn't what I want my deck to to.

Dia_Bot

01-09-2011, 06:05 AM

I really like this deck but I'm playing stifles over spell pierces because it makes the tempo gain of Noble hierarch/vial even greater and is just as in tempo ***** able to manascrew your opponent. I could be wrong in this logic but I really liked it so far.

mossivo1986

01-09-2011, 06:08 AM

"gain combat effectiveness"

Oops, I read your post incorrectly, and I wrote incorrectly in response to your post.

Your still wrong about spell pierce in this deck, as well as merfolk. Get over it.

<3 Moss

Dia Bot

The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetch-land to Stifle. Your opponent just gains tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetch-land. In bant you never want cards that are situational. Stifle is more powerful early game clearly, but looses a lot of value later.

menace13

01-09-2011, 06:14 AM

@DiaBot-
Actually that is what makes the mana denial plan of Noble Fish in Vintage so good(well partly since Null Rods are used too). It is not wrong at all to play some Stifles along the Wastes to snag any Fetches before a Basic is found, thus making the Dazes and/or Pierces that much more effective.

mossivo1986

01-09-2011, 06:31 AM

SlopeeJ

01-09-2011, 06:32 AM

Oops, I read your post incorrectly, and I wrote incorrectly in response to your post.

Your still wrong about spell pierce in this deck, as well as merfolk. Get over it.

<3 Moss

Dia Bot

The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetch-land to Stifle. Your opponent just gains tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetch-land. In bant you never want cards that are situational. Stifle is more powerful early game clearly, but looses a lot of value later.

Now you're just being ignorant, I asked you to explain how it is good (with reasons for why I think its not great) and you tell me to get over it? What are you 12yrs old? Then you use my same argument for why stifle is bad? I'm not sure what I need to get over, but thanks for contributing to this thread with your sound knowledge...... Again spell pierce is a good card, just isn't needed maindeck.

Spell pierce is terrible maindeck in Merfolk, it's an awesome sb card vs the right decks. That same logic applies to this deck. The first 4 turns I listed applies to both merfolk/vial bant when it comes to Spell Pierce. Unless your playing Combo you don't want to keep spell pierce open and tempo yourself out of the game because they MIGHT do something you want to spell pierce.

I like going in on the mania denial package, you can get some blow outs with Stifle. Though I think it's better most of the time to actually use your mana to cast stuff then to hold back. Stifle is hit and miss, awesome or sucks....

menace13

01-09-2011, 06:50 AM

1. Why isn't it wrong.

2. Why are we comparing a vintage deck to a legacy deck period.

1. It is not wrong to play Stifles with Wastelands( this has been the case in many decks)
2. Because the mana denial package of a bant aggro control deck in Vintage that is called Noble Fish is the same one used in Legacy(aside Rod and Strip), good sir.

Dia_Bot

01-09-2011, 06:51 AM

The worst thing a tempo deck can do is hold Stifle mana open and not have a fetch-land to Stifle. Your opponent just gains tempo on you because you did nothing on your turn hoping they would pop a fetch-land. In bant you never want cards that are situational. Stifle is more powerful early game clearly, but looses a lot of value later.

I agree but I think the same can be said about spell pierce. Turn 1 you should always be casting noble or Vial if you can and the next turn you will be able to make a 2-drop (or one drop with vial) as well as being able to have stifle mana open. Like mentioned before the same is true for spell pierce but I can't see spell pierce being stricktly better then stifle.

Nidd

01-09-2011, 08:55 AM

2. Because the mana denial package of a bant aggro control deck in Vintage that is called Noble Fish is the same one used in Legacy(aside Rod and Strip), good sir.
Regardless of some similarities, comparing the Legacy meta to the Vintage meta is like comparing a tree to a fish. It just doesn't work.

Nessaja

01-09-2011, 10:03 AM

I assume you're referring to my list with standstills and you are correct no manlands. But I do run Aether Vial which is still very strong even without manlands. The manabase can not support manlands. You want vial with standstill so I don't see not having manlands as a big problem. You run fatty creatures that trump a mutavualt all day. I already stated that I think this deck has a worse control matchup.
I wasn't actually referring to your list

But on your list, you're running a 4 off to support another 4 off ???? Ehhh... that doesn't sound so hot.

The comment was much more general. Vial Bant wants to mirror Merfolk, but its missing the manlands, and it's missing out big time in that area as far as I'm concerned.

Hanni

01-09-2011, 11:28 AM

@ SlopeeJ

1) I know people keep bringing it up, but I really haven't had significant issues with my manabase. I'll agree to disagree on this one because there's only so much that can be said about it.

2) I've played Merfolk's 4 times now, 2-0'd two of them, 2-1'd two of them, all 4 versions were monoblue, not sure their exact listings. Submerge is pretty sweet for them, but at the same time, Selkie and SFM/Equips are pretty sweet for me. The biggest advantage I have in this matchup is Qasali. Even against Goblins, the ability to destroy my opponent's Aether Vial cripples their development. Otherwise, it takes a long time to get 5 Lords into play, and unless one of those Lords is of the Atlantis variety, they aren't swinging into my fatties right away.

I'll admit that 4 matches isn't alot of testing, and likely my opponent's were not of the highest calibur. Have you been having issues with this matchup?

3) Deeds suck because they destroy my Vial, but they destroy Merfolk's Vial too, and I don't need to overextend like Merfolk's does, so I don't understand how Deed is any worse against me than it is against Merfolk. Am I missing something here?

4) I don't understand the fascination with Standstill. The only matchup where the deck needs to refill its hand is against Control decks like Landstill, where Selkie is a much better draw engine postboard. Regardless, the deck doesn't even need Selkie or extra draw to beat Control decks. The Control matchup is one of the best matchups for this deck.

You lack Manlands to make Standstill good, and you won't always have Aether Vial. Without Vial, you're Standstill's are pretty bad.

Spell Pierce is great because it answers all sorts of random problems like Vindicate, Humility, Wrath of God, Show and Tell, Ad Nauseam, Umezawa's Jitte, etc etc. Spell Pierce facilitates my beatdown, either by disrupting my opponent's development, or by protecting my own.

List) I disagree with the need for basics, but this is simply going to be a matter of agree to disagree.

The 2 Horizon Canopies have been good for me, and I'd need a really good reason to cut them. Early game, they can still be used to cast most of the spells in my deck, and by midgame, it turns excess lands into business.

How has Kira been in playtesting? I know that she's really good against decks like The Rock, but I'm curious how she's been for you in other matchups.

3 Noble could be the right number, I haven't playtested with 3 yet. However, I do like maximizing my chances of having either a Hierarch or Vial on turn 1, so I'm gonna stick to 4 for now.

Clique does more than just be good against Control. She can give you valuable information about your opponent's hand (while putting their worst one to bottom), she can respond to an opponent's Aether Vial activation to screw them over (have done this several times now), and she can put something like an excess land in your own hand to bottom so that you can draw into more gas. I've liked Clique so far, and having 5 flyers has been nice. I don't think Clique is a necessary card to run, but I like it as a singleton, and will likely keep it for now.

As far as lacking room for SFM/Equips, that's because you're running additional stuff like Swords to Plowshares and Dueling Grounds, which are essentially competing for the same spots.

Has Krosan Grip been valuable for you in the sideboard, considering you already run 4 Qasali and 8 countermagic? So far, the only time I've ever wanted Krosan Grip has been against a resolved Humility.

@ Nessaja

Not running Manlands doesn't weaken the Control matchup that much. Having a creature that dodges Sorcery speed removal is nice, but it still gets hit by Swords, Deed, etc all the same. The nicest thing about Manlands is that they play well under a Humility, but I haven't run into this very frequently. So I'd say yes, I do lose a little bit of additional pressure, but no, it hasn't weakened my Control matchup enough to matter.

Playing under a Standstill depends entirely on the situation. If I have a Vial down, my opponent is retarded to cast a Standstill. If I have a guy or two on the table, my opponent is retarded to cast a Standstill (unless all I have is a single Noble Hierarch). Even if I am positioned badly (no board pressure), my opponent resolves a Standstill, and I'm forced to break it, that doesn't mean I lose the matchup.

@ SlopeeJ

When do I ever want to hold mana open for spell pierce in the early game when it matters?

All the time. Turn 1 Vial opens the deck up to use its lands/mana sources on tons of things. Turn 1 Trop, Vial. Turn 2 Wasteland, hold U open for Spell Pierce is an example. Even with a turn 1 Noble Hierarch, a turn 2 Goyf or Qasali leaves me with U open to counter the opponent's StP, or whatever they were planning to cast.

Without Spell Pierce in the main, this deck has a much harder matchup against Combo, too.

holding mana open for spell pierce is tempo loss.

The deck frequently has an available U mana though.

Turn 3 fatty etc..... I don't want to be casting brainstorm, or "gain combat effectiveness" by casting spell pierce

The deck most certainly does not need draw in the early game (first few turns), because you should almost always have a grip of gas. It takes a little while to dump your hand of 2cc and 3cc creatures. Only after you run out of gas would you need the card draw, and by then, Brainstorm digging for extra gas (getting rid of excess lands, etc) is almost as good as Standstill, except it's not conditional.

However, I stand firmly in my belief that this deck does not need a maindeck draw effect. If you are playing against Control, you should not be overextending. You only need to swing with 1-2 guys at a time. This deck draws into nothing but gas, because this deck is nothing but gas. I run my Control opponent's out of answers very frequently, because I run more threats than they run answers.

Against anything but Control, this deck really doesn't need the extra draw.

@ DiaBot

I've played a fair bit with Canadian Threshold, Team America, and New Horizons, so I know how good Stifle can be. Those decks are better positioned to use Stifle though, because they can afford to hold U open on turn 1. They have Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, or Lightning Bolt to make use of their turn 1 mana should the opponent not play a fetchland. Aside from Canadian Threshold (Nimble Mongoose), those decks really don't have any other relevant turn 1 plays besides cantripping. So for them, holding U open on turn 1 for Stifle isn't really a problem.

For me, I want to be dropping a turn 1 Vial or Hierarch. Stifle is at its best on turn 1, and diminishes in quality every turn after that. Spell Pierce is effective, especially in combination with Wasteland's, throughout the entire game (usually). While I haven't tested Stifle in here, and I'm not saying that it isn't good in this deck, I think this deck gets alot more mileage out of Spell Pierce.

mossivo1986

01-09-2011, 03:25 PM

I agree but I think the same can be said about spell pierce. Turn 1 you should always be casting noble or Vial if you can and the next turn you will be able to make a 2-drop (or one drop with vial) as well as being able to have stifle mana open. Like mentioned before the same is true for spell pierce but I can't see spell pierce being stricktly better then stifle.

The same can not be said about spell pierce. If your opponent doesn't play a fetch and you hold stifle for 2-3+ turns then your actually losing tempo by holding mana for an interaction that isn't happening. They can still develope like normal, while your attempting to shoot them in the foot, but it won't matter after the first several turns. The difference with spell pierce is that while there isn't as much pressure on your opponents mana developement, there is alot of pressure on what they play. If your opponent chooses to play dudes, your dudes are better and your going to crush them. If they cost too much, then you have daze. If your opponent casts a non-creature spell "the most threatening thing you care about" the archtype supports spell pierce as a means to fight this. When you stop your opponent from developing like normal, while you continue to you gain tempo. This archtype is very similar to the one that i've been developing for close to a year and a half. The strong synergy between noble/vial -wasteland, daze, and spell pierce is the reason to run this deck.

menace13

01-09-2011, 03:37 PM

Regardless of some similarities, comparing the Legacy meta to the Vintage meta is like comparing a tree to a fish. It just doesn't work.

There was not any meta comparision at all in any of my posts. The deck is similar to Noble Fish.

Koby

01-10-2011, 03:05 AM

Played Vile Bant at a local 40 man tourney (wtf, when did 40 people start showing up for $10 store credit events? </aside>)

6 Fecth
3 Trops
3 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Coralhelm Commander
3 RWM
4 KoTR
2 Vendilion Clique

4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 AEther Vial

Sideboard:
2 SFM
2 Jitte/SoFI
4 StP
2 Jace TMS
1 Elspeth 1.0
1 Karakas
3 Meddling Mage

Round 1 - Solidarity (2-1)
Lose G1
Win G2
Win G3 when time is called and I have 3 turns to take with either a lethal KotR (if he Brainfreezes), or 2x 3/3 Commander and KoTR.

Round 2 - Glimpse Affinity w/ Berserk (1-2)
Game 1 - Lose to Berserk for exactsies. He had no cards in hand at end of game.
Game 2 - win with two large KoTR when he drew blanks
Game 3 - 2 disciples + 2 topdecked ravagers back to back.

:(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

Round 3 - Counterbalance/Top (2-0)
G1 - AEther Vial get there
G2 - AEther Vial get there!

Round 4 - Dark Depths mono black (2-0)
G1 - Opp mull to 5.
G2 - Opp walks into Daze then Spell Pierce, then FoW.

Round 5 - Sneak Show
G1 - Show and Tell resolves on the back of Force of Will. I can race with RWM, but Through the Breach shows up with Emrakul as the last card in hand. 3 Daze = shit vs FoW decks.
G2 - Sneak Attack resolves after he Force of Will's my Force of Will on Sneak. Last card in hand = Emrakul. Clears my board and i go to 3. draw go for 7 turns until he draws another Emrakul after I cast a Tarmogoyf through Blood Moon.

Must. Be. Nice. To. Draw. Well. (*sigh*)

Round 6 - UW Merfolk
G1 - Turn 1 Vial for him. Turn 1 Vial for me. Lose to Islandwalk after 3 Silvergill Adept (hey! that's what we're missing!!)
G2 - Turn 1 Vial. FOW his Vial. Trade Jittes, then He wastes his FoW on an StP on a lord. I draw into Goyf Vial'd in as a blocker to his Rejeerey. Submerge = FOW fodder since I got forest-screwed oddly enough. (Note to self, try to avoid keeping forest in play)
G3 - I FoW his Vial, then follow up with Hierarch. Cast Commander #1 meets FOW. Commander #2 resolves, levels and start attacking with flying Islandwalk. He is short on both cards as well as guys, while I draw back to back Goyfs. He needs to draw LoA to alpha strike, but misses.

Ended up 10th out of 40 due to tie breakers.

Some notes:
Combo match-ups. I want like 239487293857926359-28349 counter spells. How the hell do we deal with Sneak Show decks?

Affinity ...???

Other than those two losses, and random scrub decks (monoblack Dark Depths), the deck performed well. I did not have any trouble with Wasteland color screwing me.

Basic Plains did color screw me in Round 5, as the hand contained green spells with Tundra and Plains. I kept the hand cuz I knew he was Sneak Show, and it also had 2 Dazes. G2, Medddling Mages showed up with the only land being Plains. Sometimes, you don't get lucky. Oh well.

SlopeeJ

01-10-2011, 04:10 AM

Awesome tourney, 40 people would be great. My local 10$ get 20 max but usually 15. Seems like a good report, what would you change in your build?

Seems like a basic island is better then a basic plains if you are only going to run 2 basics.

How the hell do we deal with Sneak Show decks?

Counters and the Karakas, hopefully you brought it in? did you lose to bloodmoon?...basics

Edit I just noticed your sb, you even have meddling mag how did you lose to that deck?

Hanni

01-10-2011, 05:46 AM

Sneak and Show is one of this decks better matchups. It sounds like you got really unlucky. This deck has about a million answers to that deck.

1) Wasteland cuts them off mana for both Show and Sneak, especially Sneak.
2) Often, they can drop Sneak but don't have the extra mana to activate a guy into play, and Qasali blows it up.
3) They are often forced to curve out, making both Daze and Spell Pierce very strong.
4) Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell and then Sneak Attack is gg.
5) Knight of the Reliquary + Karakas laughs at Emrakul.
6) Vendilion Clique in response to Show and Tell or Sneak attack is fun.

Against Affinity, it really depends on their draws. I've lost a few games against them where I keep a mediocre hand and they empty their entire hand on turn 1. I've also won a few games by countering their early Mox Opal, Wasteland their Artifact Land, and then Qasali lands on the board to seal it up. Affinity lists are so widely different that the matchup specifics vary on a a game by game basis.

What I did notice was how running basics actually screwed you up in several games. This deck is very color source heavy, and running basics is worse than running all duals (usually). Blood Moon is one of the rare situations where having basics would be nice, but between Hierarch/Vial and enough countermagic to keep an early Blood Moon from resolving, I'd rather take my chances.

I also do not understand what the Planeswalker's are in the sideboard for, and what matchups you intend to bring them in against. Control decks?

On a final note, I'm glad to see that you piloted this at an event, it's unfortunate that you didn't make Top 8, but still congrats on your performance (10th isn't bad).

EDIT: With some assistance, I'll work on developing some matchup analysis and sideboard plans later in the week.

ScatmanX

01-10-2011, 08:09 AM

1) Wasteland cuts them off mana for both Show and Sneak, especially Sneak.
2) Often, they can drop Sneak but don't have the extra mana to activate a guy into play, and Qasali blows it up.
3) They are often forced to curve out, making both Daze and Spell Pierce very strong.
4) Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell and then Sneak Attack is gg.
5) Knight of the Reliquary + Karakas laughs at Emrakul.
6) Vendilion Clique in response to Show and Tell or Sneak attack is fun.
7) Get Jace from SnT and bounce his Emrakul.
Just seem you had a lot of bad luck there...

luckme10

01-10-2011, 08:29 AM

GGoober

01-10-2011, 11:00 AM

Hanni good job on the deck. When you analyze Merfolks carefully, this is what boils down to the success of Merfolks, and potentially the power of this deck.

Merfolks relies on a tempo plan but has an unfair way to attain this: Not only does it run tempo cards e.g. Wasteland/Pierce/Daze but it develops tempo via Vial and Lords. With a similar approach, Vial Bant can achieve this as well: Run tempo cards e.g. Wasteland/Pierce/Daze, however the difference with the 2-decks:

Merfolk runs Lords, which scales with the board position to overwhelm. Bant runs good creatures, which doesn't need to scale to overwhelm. Bant can scale with Exalted triggers. Merfolks has a stabler manabase while Bant is 3-colors, but this is not necessarily true. Merfolk's 13 Island sometimes does not consistently support its manabase of UU spells whereas Bant with Noble Hierarch makes it very stable, not to mention if your opponents are wasting your lands, then you are achieving what this deck exactly wants. With Vial + Hierarch, you can really just ignore your manabase (which Hanni pointed out why it's not a problem) because if they are wasting your land, chances are they will lose to the tempo development since you play Hierarch/Vial to recouperate.

Stifle is not for this deck. In fact I think that Stifle in tempo decks only belong to tempo decks that have creatures that are weak e.g. Mongoose/Goyf/Bob/Clique configuration. I don't mean that these creatures suck, but I'm saying these are the creatures that don't necessarily win games if your opponent dropped a creature. Stifle is needed in those decks because Tempo Thresh CANNOT afford opponents to ever hit 2-3 lands and drop a Goyf, nullifying their attack plan. This deck has superior creatures, and an unfair board development like Merfolks. It does not need Stifle, because its creatures can easily compete even if your opponent dropped one (and it runs StP as well). This deck needs Pierce to really maintain tempo (as Moss pointed out how Stifle is dead in situations and Pierce may also be dead, but Pierce entirely changes what cards they play, hence affecting their board develompent aka tempo).

Hanni, I do have a question, do you think running 2 Stoneforge Mystic + 2 equipment (Jitte/SoFI mix) would make the deck stronger? I personally think that if you are playing vial, 2 Mystic adds to a lot for the deck. Having just 1 equipment out makes your control/aggro matchup considerably stronger. IMO it adds to the tempo game plan, because with the unfair board development that the opponent has to deal, assuming in the best scenario they matched you in the tempo war, having a Stoneforge fetching up a Jitte suddenly turns that world upside down.

Koby

01-10-2011, 11:53 AM

What would you change in your build? Seems like a basic island is better then a basic plains if you are only going to run 2 basics.

Swap the 2 basics for 2 duals. Meddling Mages out of the board into something more relevant - like 1x Bojuga Bog

Counters and the Karakas, hopefully you brought it in? did you lose to bloodmoon?...basics
Edit I just noticed your sb, you even have meddling mag how did you lose to that deck?

I think I hit really bad luck vs my opponent's near perfect draw. He spent the first few turns Ponder/Brainstorming for key cards, then cast Show n Tell/Sneak Attack through my resistance. Drawing 3 Daze didn't help either. Drawing Plains instead of a forest also mattered a lot here.

First opening have G2 had 2 Mages in it, but 1 Plains (curses!!) as the only land. Mull'd hand had blue sources and FoW, but no other disruption. Happens. :\

Sneak and Show is one of this decks better matchups. It sounds like you got really unlucky. This deck has about a million answers to that deck.

1) Wasteland cuts them off mana for both Show and Sneak, especially Sneak.
2) Often, they can drop Sneak but don't have the extra mana to activate a guy into play, and Qasali blows it up.
3) They are often forced to curve out, making both Daze and Spell Pierce very strong.
4) Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell and then Sneak Attack is gg.
5) Knight of the Reliquary + Karakas laughs at Emrakul.
6) Vendilion Clique in response to Show and Tell or Sneak attack is fun.

I agree with all of those. Variance is a bitch I guess.

Against Affinity, it really depends on their draws. I've lost a few games against them where I keep a mediocre hand and they empty their entire hand on turn 1. I've also won a few games by countering their early Mox Opal, Wasteland their Artifact Land, and then Qasali lands on the board to seal it up. Affinity lists are so widely different that the matchup specifics vary on a a game by game basis.

G1 berserk, G2 perish, G3 Glimpse. it was like I was playing vs 3 different decks. If we ran a E-tutor/Hate card SB, then Null Rod would definitely be a great card to include.

What I did notice was how running basics actually screwed you up in several games. This deck is very color source heavy, and running basics is worse than running all duals (usually). Blood Moon is one of the rare situations where having basics would be nice, but between Hierarch/Vial and enough countermagic to keep an early Blood Moon from resolving, I'd rather take my chances.

I agree with this assessment, and am planning on tightening up the mana base accordingly.

I also do not understand what the Planeswalker's are in the sideboard for, and what matchups you intend to bring them in against. Control decks?

Strictly vs control. Jace against other Jace decks, Karakas to abuse Cliques and help raise the land count to cast the walkers, and Elspeth to beat Jace/CBtop as they have little to zero removal for her. 4 cards vs Dedicated control seems decent. usually board out RWM or Pridemage to bring them in.

On a last note - Vialing in Tarmogoyf is just plain cheating. This is the best deck to be doing that in. :)

EDIT: One thing that I've been doing specifically with the deck is to analyze dead cards and swap them out with relevant cards. I've designed the SB in mind with which matchups have dead cards and ways I could "upgrade" to get better cards for G2 and 3. SFM really turn the tables when it comes in for SB games, and I definitly plan on keeping them.

I do anticipate many Merfolk/CBtop decks in my metagame. Any suggestions on key cards for these matchups in the maindeck?

lordofthepit

01-10-2011, 12:12 PM

7) Get Jace from SnT and bounce his Emrakul.
Just seem you had a lot of bad luck there...

Unfortunately, Jace isn't an artifact, enchantment, land, or creature.

Koby

01-10-2011, 12:15 PM

7) Get Jace from SnT and bounce his Emrakul.
Just seem you had a lot of bad luck there...

SnT put Progenitus into play; which is why I could have raced it with RWM had Emrakul not shown up. :\

Karhumies

01-10-2011, 02:59 PM

Have you considered running a SB package similar to Death & Taxes and UW Tempo? By this, I mean replacing the SB Meddling Mage with a toolbox of 2-3x E.Tutor and 1x E.Canonist +1x Thorn of Amethyst vs storm combo (as well as the occasional combo Elf / Glimpse Affinity), 1x Wheel of Sun and Moon/Relic of Progenitus as gy hate and 1x Pithing Needle to shut off generally problematic cards (e.g. Maze of Ith). While combo may be hated out by the return of counterbalance decks, you have no excuses for not running sufficient gy hate in the SB. Bojuka Bog is an option, but KotR activation is a very slow way to reliably find it.

Koby

01-10-2011, 03:14 PM

Karhumies

01-10-2011, 03:25 PM

I've been thinking about perhaps running that.

E-tutor -> Null Rod, or Canonist is pretty good against such decks. Even tutoring for Equipment is really nice. The only problem is having enough SB space.

This is likely to come down to a choice between SFM + Equipment vs. E.Tutor + Toolbox. SFM is undoubtedly better vs. Counterbalance (card advantage instead of card disadvantage, uncounterable equipment), but the toolbox is better when the metagame is very greatly varied and you need to answer a specific opposing strategy early in the game.

Hanni

01-10-2011, 06:02 PM

Well it's pretty difficult to predict the metagame at the moment. Considering that I have pro-bant aggro, merfolk and affinity prebuilt, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to throw this together for next week's SCG Open: San Jose. With 6 days not being really much time for testing, I was wondering, is there any way this deck plays differently from Pro Bant against Death and Taxes, Goblins, Merfolk, or any other matchups that I should be playtesting up for? Minor alterations will also have to be compensated for. For instance, No swords of fire and ice here; NO package sideboarded will have to suffice.

The deck plays more like Merfolk than it plays like NO Bant.

NO/Prog in the sideboard instead of SFM/Equipment is perfectly fine.

Hanni, I do have a question, do you think running 2 Stoneforge Mystic + 2 equipment (Jitte/SoFI mix) would make the deck stronger?

Yes, but only against specific matchups, which is why I have it in the sideboard.

Meddling Mages out of the board into something more relevant

Meddling Mage in the sideboard has been awesome for me in alot of matchups. When I get around to writing a matchup analysis and sideboard plan for various matchups, I'll include the various uses of Meddling Mage too.

I do anticipate many Merfolk/CBtop decks in my metagame. Any suggestions on key cards for these matchups in the maindeck?

You don't really need to board anything for CB/Top because this deck pretty much destroys that matchup, but I've been bringing in Selkie's for RWM's for now. Although, if my opponent keeps their Firespouts in for game 2, I'd go back to RWM for game 3. I haven't actually had to go back to RWM yet because I haven't lost a game to CB/Top yet, but that's what I would do if that situation ever happened.

Against Merfolk, I've been content with Selkie's + SFM/Equips. If you wanted to, I'm sure you could take a look at other Bant threads and steal whatever tech they use for the Merfolk matchup (which I think is still SFM/Equips if I'm not mistaken).

Have you considered running a SB package similar to Death & Taxes and UW Tempo? By this, I mean replacing the SB Meddling Mage with a toolbox of 2-3x E.Tutor and 1x E.Canonist +1x Thorn of Amethyst vs storm combo (as well as the occasional combo Elf / Glimpse Affinity), 1x Wheel of Sun and Moon/Relic of Progenitus as gy hate and 1x Pithing Needle to shut off generally problematic cards (e.g. Maze of Ith). While combo may be hated out by the return of counterbalance decks, you have no excuses for not running sufficient gy hate in the SB. Bojuka Bog is an option, but KotR activation is a very slow way to reliably find it.

E Tutor is great for decks looking to assemble a combo (like say a Painter/Grindstone deck). Otherwise, I think E Tutor is horrible. Keep in mind, that is just my opinion.

I have Wasteland to answer Maze of Ith, and a way to tutor for it with Knight of the Reliquary if I really need to, or worst case scenario I can just overextend.

I run 2 Bojuka Bog in the sideboard, which is essentially like running 6 graveyard hate spells with Knight of the Reliquary. Knight might be slow, but I haven't ran into any serious issues yet. Usually against Dredge, my ability to Wasteland their Coliseum and Force/Daze/Pierce their initial Breakthrough slows them down alot.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the versatility in E Tutor, and I know a card like Needle has more applications than Maze of Ith, but I don't think the deck needs it.

LOurs

01-11-2011, 04:46 AM

I rade the thread and was pretty skeptical with that deck : I understood the philosophy (especially regarding STPless) so I gave it a try. I played with it a bit, not enough to really know the deck, but enough to get a first overview on it. I did something like 15 matches versus different random decks : dredge, DnT, Team America, Zoo, merfolk, TES and burn mostly.

And I have to say what I felt : this deck is a blast. It worked very well. Tbh, the global performances of that deck surprised me. I’m still pretty novice with it, but I enjoyed a lot to play it and I was almost undefeated with it. My opponents were probably not the best pilots (I saw several misplay) but I wasn’t also. These matches were tests and no tournament so that could be also different in a competition environnement, and I didn’t deal with some of the Tier 1/1.5 decks like gob, landstill, enchantress and some others. So my experience is limited and I need to practice more to have a complete opinion.

Several things that had an big impact on the deck and that I didn’t immediately identify before testing : the exalted effect (incredibly powerful in many situations, especially along with RWM & cold eye), the number of counter (I underestimated the potential of counter), the meddling mage (this sb choice seems to be extremely solid at a point I almost would like to run them md… and they remain good beaters) and the cold eye selkie (in a huge creature density deck, this merf is a real bomb vs blue as it often stay alive enough to get some draws which was leathal most of the time).

I will go on to test it as well before to try to give inputs on replacement / optimization, but I also have to say that I didn’t really miss STP/removals effect most of the time, which seems to confirm the global strategy of the deck. There were several situations where I would have liked to get it though (early resolved persecutor / mother rune, resolved humility were examples) so I asked myself if mangara could be useful in the deck (we have tutorisable karakas in the sb and its cmc is often fitting good along with active vial counter, but his body is terrible when you need to fight) but didn’t give it a try finaly (I probably would just to see). I never found the equipement package that much useful when I used, but I guess I didn’t have had deal with the decks for which this plan is better (gob/elve in example I guess). I also found the TES match up difficult on the draw (on the play it was pretty better) as the match up vs dredge if the opponents gets his therapies early. But no autoloss anyway. I also thought to the inclusion of terravore as a 1 or 2 off, to run over recurrent 1/1 chump blocker (bitterblossom, I am looking at you as example), but I will test tweaks later.

Btw, pretty good primer, pretty good argumentations and nice ideas there. gl with the deck, I'll follow the thread.

ScatmanX

01-11-2011, 07:19 AM

Unfortunately, Jace isn't an artifact, enchantment, land, or creature.
Damn this cards printed before Planeswalkers...

Mirrislegend

01-11-2011, 11:38 AM

I love this deck. I'm gonna play it. But I'm not heavily invested in old lands, so I'm wondering how exacting the manabase is. Can the numbers be fudged and the deck still function well?

Koby

01-11-2011, 11:40 AM

This deck consistently wants Tropical Island (G for Noble Hierarch, Island for Daze).

I've up'd the Tropical Island count to 4. And 3 Tundras, 1 basic Forest, 8 fetchlands. Basically, I found that basic Plains is daggers when you open up a tight hand.

You could possibly use Ravnica duals, but the lifeloss will effect certain matchups.

dyzzy

01-11-2011, 03:23 PM

How do you feel about Jenara? My first impression was that I'd rather just run the 4th Coralhelm. (Alternatively another Vendilion or another land.)

I've gotta say, I'm really digging this deck. I'll be trying it out this weekend.

luckme10

01-11-2011, 09:43 PM

I like Jenara for a few reasons:
-Although she's an extra mana to cast than Coralhelm, her colors are more diversified.
-It's ultimately a mana cheaper for her to become a 4/4 flier.
-She comes off of a vial and can trigger response to beat a burn spell, as opposed to having to wait for the main phase or opponent tap out like Coralhelm.
-She doesn't have to stop pumping at 4/4, you can pump her as much as you want. Also given the possibility of mana flood due to lack of card filtering and 8 acceleration cards, it just gives you something to do when you've emptied your hand. Another potentially large beater with evasion can win the game by itself.
The latter reason being why I believe Jenara fits better into this deck than previous Bant incarnations.

PhanTom_lt

01-17-2011, 07:07 AM

And this deck apparently can pack some punch: 16th place at SCG 5k San Jose

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
2 Coralhelm Commander
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

Legendary Creatures
1 Jenara, Asura of War
1 Progenitus
2 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries
3 Natural Order

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Perimeter Captain
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

luckme10

01-17-2011, 02:43 PM

Perhaps SpikeyMike would care to share some insights on his card decisions :smile: I'm especially curious about the 2x counterspells maindeck, Ratchet Bomb, and Perimeter Captains sideboard.

luudes

01-17-2011, 02:59 PM

Hey Im the Mike who ran this list. First wanted to thank some folks for ideas. Ive been playing this deck for about a year developing for a small local tourny on the east coast that had a high combo and countertop density. I hadnt thought of coralhelms or dropping StPs though. Those are ideas from the generous posters on this board.
I wanted 6x counters other than fow daze in lieu of removal. I wanted the option of more flexibility after sideboarding in what I thought would be a rather open meta. I thought ratchet bomb would be a nice option. I used it once way behind against goblins so I cant really comment. Its versatility vs dredge, goblins, storm was what I had in mind.
Cap'ts are a beating against zoo and goblins... wish I had one T1 vs gobs. Below is a report. I thought it would be of more interest here than in the report thread.

SCG 5K legacy sanjose
Vial bant to 16th with a 6-2 record. List is on scg website.
Rd1 vs Keith with combo elves (manaemrakul)
R1G1: I play lead out fetch island, vial and daze his T1 manadude. I crush with goyf while he ramps, his T4 draw I vial in clique seeing living wish, 2x nat order, forest (his board is 2 forest, 1 dryad arbor). I have daze in hand so take living wish. He plays nat order into my daze and I beat down
R1G2: -2 rwm, -1 hierarch, -1 jenara, -1 karakas: +2StP, +1ratchet, +2 tutor
He dbl mulligans on the play. T1 manadork. I fetch tundra and plow it. I spell snare a living wish and end the game quickly with 3 goyfs (1-0)

Rd2 Sam with B/G/W junk
R2G1: I play and mull a one lander into island, maze, spell snare, vial, jenara, waste I keep. Land T1 vial, get thoughtsiezed his T1 he takes jenara. He rides 2x wasteland into me not drawing land for the win. Not much I could’ve done. Maybe gone to 5?
-4 nat order package, -1 jenara. +2 kira, +2 tutor +1 tormods
R2G2: I play and have 3 land and a variety of blues spells and knight. He mulls. I daze his T1 TSieze. I have pretty fast goyf and knight beats for a quick win.
R2G3: He plays and mulls. I keep a decent hand. He goes T1 Tsieze, T2 hymn (which gets my land) , T3 hymn. Wasteland back up and I die to knight and goyf being bottlenecked at 1 land and a maze which he wasted and his convenience once got knight online. Could not do much about that one either (1-1) (and 2 ackward hands with maze in the opener)

Rd3 Todd with merfolk
Rd3G1: Todd plays cursecatcher, I play t1 vial. He plays T2 vial, beats with CC. I tick mine up say go. He ticks his to one and beats with CC. my T2 vial to 2, vial in pridemage blow his vial. He has fetch for U sea and I waste. He gets stuck on 1 land and beats with CC getting in 4 times before I vial in clique seeing a bunch of fish he can’t cast, I let him keep. Goyf hits and clique have him going 20-16-9-X
+3 perimeter captain, +2 swords, -2 daze, not sure what else, prob jenara, hierarch
R3G2: He dbl mulls into nothing then T2 vial. I have T1 vial and once again pridemage his before it can hit 2. I get clique and karakas going this game and finally land a knight and crush him. (2-1)

Rd4: Jason with dredge. He mulls, I win die roll.
G1: I have T1 vial and dbl wasteland to keep him off mana. I spell pierce a cabal therapy to prevent him from seeing my hand and kill with two large goyfs. I also counter breakthrough.
-4 nat order package, -2 rwm, -1 karakas, -1 jenara, - 1 counterspell. + 2 tutot 1 wheel 1 tormods 1 needle 2 StP 1 dgrounds, 1 ratchet
G2: I have T1 enlightened into T2 wheel. He has 7 cards in graveyard and plays the flying 1/1 threshold guy and narco and putrid imp to slow my assault of goyfs, knights and coralhelms but I draw crypt and get his yard and he has nothing (3-1)

Rd5: Vs Ryan Reynolds with deedstill, a tough matchup
I play G1 and get quick beats from a vial with a steady flow of creatures, he has lots of kill but punts when bouncing my knight with jace before deeding away my vial instead of the otherway around. So I just vial the knight when he deeds @2.
I mull game 2 into shaky mana and punt when announcing E tutor into his Jace
G3 I have a fast creature draw which lures all his creature kill and I stick a V clique that goes all the way, 19-16-13-10-7-4-1 (4-1).
This is a tough matchup and I had little to address it except for E tutor into 1 needle. I cut Academy ruins from SB last minute to make room for the StPs which were worth it but maybe fitting ruins would not be a bad idea for a SB package like this

RD6: not filmed feature match area Vs Nick with ANT (burning wish, chant, swarm after board)
G1: I play and keep a hand with fetch T1 hierarch, daze back up and a waste. I slow his cantrips, and get T2 warmonk. T3 I pridemage a chrome mox with silence imprinted which he played T2 after attacking going up to 25 off RWM. I waste his land and crush forcing him to tendrils me for 10 I go from 28-18 and he goes back to 16. I swing with lots of dudes he goes 16-5-X I end @ 24.
I side out nat order package and bring in 2 StP and 2 E tutor and null rod
G2 he mulls on the play and I mull into hierarch, lands FoW and spierce. He duresses away force. I then rip daze for his T2 swarm. He knows about the pierce and I land 2x goyf and knight while pridemaging a chromemox with b wish on it to go hellbent near the endgame ( I pierced a LED). He brainstorms and scoops looking at lethal. (5-1)

RD7:
Table 4 Vs Iain playing goblins, winner of this can draw into T8.
He wins die roll, I force a T1 lackey after 1 mull with a T1 vial. He had a decent had and lands. He kept sharpshooter on the table all game for ackward action with his mogg war marshall. But alas I could not find threats and had one knight that looked to go the distance until I drew 4 lands in a row midgame while he drew warchief and matron into siegegang.
+3 captain, +2 E tutor, +1 ratchet, +1 dueling grounds, +2 StP: -4nat order, -1 jenara, -1 karakas, -3 hierarch
Game 2 is very similar I mull on the play but to 1 fetch waste and maze. I grab an island for daze after a T1 vial. He has a pretty fast draw as I rip nothing but lands. I did ambush his T2 lackey when it attacked on T3 with a heath dryad arbor block. That was sweet. 10 lands out of 18 cards seen at the end of the game was not. I ended the game locked out of white due to ports with a dueling grounds in hand. I was not meant to win this one. I feel the matchup is def winnable I just ran unlucky at the crucial moments in this game (but did get my fair share of luck against deedstill) (5-2) Iain is a real nice guy and goes on to win the whole thing after drawing into the top 8 with 19 points

Rd8 vs Alex with U/W grindstone, bomber
G1 he plays and I mull. I die in short order to grindstone combo
+2 E tutor, +1 null rod, +1 wheel of sun and moon, +1 needle
G2 I play and go T1 enlightened into T2 null rod. I get there with slow goyf beats as nothing but lands were in the graveyard. He deck was shut down. He did play auriok salvager so I side in T crypt also.
G3 Im on the draw and he snap keeps saying this is real fast. I proceed to mull down to 4 seeing about 3 lands in the process. I keep with 2 fetch, 1 waste and null rod. I try to stay as frustrated and dejected looking as possible. But it could be bad as I know he plays pierce and FoW. He opens with ancient den and I smile a little inside. I play fetch, pass. He plays fetch island pyrite spell bomb, LED, brainstorm pass. I play fetch, 2x fetch and place null rod on the table. It resolves as his jaw drops a little. I draw goyfs afterward and end with wheel and null rod after he calls judge when I tell him ancient den does not tap for mana. A touch of luck on that one (6-2 and in the money!) That and trading a stack of crap rares for my 4th manadrain made for a good day.

The deck is very powerful and was appropriate for the metagame. I didn’t play 4c cbtop but it was all around. I feel that should be a strong matchup anyway. LSV and Gerry T were playing it amongst others with more name recognition than I. I crushed fish and shoud’ve had much better game against goblins but that’s how it goes.
Doc Lewis

GGoober

01-17-2011, 03:26 PM

Thanks for the report. This deck looks like a strong evolution of Bant Aggro. Hierarch in Bant Aggro was already unfair, and now pairing it up with Vial not only allows for tricks, but way too much free mana to keep up the pressure while holding mana back to counterspells.

I like the 2 Counterspell in your list and at first glance it seems to not fit in an aggro-based deck, but in a deck boasting Hierarch and vials, you are basically always having lands untapped to cantrip and counterspells. in that sense, Pierce/snares/counterspells all fit in nicely and more powerfully than Daze as hard counters. With this in mind, do you think Vendilion clique serves this purpose well in the deck? since you can cheat creatures in with vial, untapping bluffing counters or countering and cantriping or cliquing would seem to fully abuse the tempo advantage of this deck.

looking forward to more performances with this archetype and continued evolution.

luudes

01-17-2011, 04:08 PM

I liked clique a lot all day.
I also liked 2 coralhelms. Im playing jenara as Commander #3 which is also tutorable with nat order. 4 is too many in my opinion. You do have mana available from time to time but you dont flood and dont want 2x coralhelms on the board (compared to 1 coralhelm and one other threat)

Hanni

01-17-2011, 04:22 PM

It's nice to see people playing the deck. I disagree with alot of your card choices luudes, but you did well with it, and I can't deny results.

Rd5: Vs Ryan Reynolds with deedstill, a tough matchup

100% disagree with this. It's very possible that it's the difference between my build and your build, but Deedstill has literally been one of my best matchups. I've played Deedstill about 8 times now, and I'm 8-0 against it (without a single game loss). U/W/x Landstills versions, with very stable manabases (many basics), Humility preboard, and Peacekeeper postboard, are alot harder. Even then, I'm still undefeated against a Landstill variant (I've lost a few games to the U/W/x versions, but I have yet to lose a match).

In fact, I find Elves and Junk to be two of this decks hardest matchups. You actually beat Elves, so that is very impressive to me.

As far as Goblins goes, that matchup is very winnable. It's not an easy matchup, but this deck is more than capable of beating it. The game obviously gets better postboard, with a number of options to bring in against them: SFM/Equips, NO/Prog, StP, Dueling Grounds, Ghostly Prison, etc. Sorry to see that you lost to Goblins, but it does happen sometimes.

I liked clique a lot all day.
I also liked 2 coralhelms. Im playing jenara as Commander #3 which is also tutorable with nat order. 4 is too many in my opinion. You do have mana available from time to time but you dont flood and dont want 2x coralhelms on the board (compared to 1 coralhelm and one other threat)

Clique's pretty good. I agree that 4 Coralhelm is a little overkill, but I definitely think playing at least 4 flyers is the right call. I play a 3/1/1 split of Coralhelm, Clique, and Jenara, and it has been working beautifully for me.

luudes

01-17-2011, 04:40 PM

this particular matchup was tough because they were close games. My experience against xstill variants consists of this match. With 6 sac effects and 4 deeds preboard he kept me off creatures because I didnt have a particularly creature heavy draw. I had situational counters in the wrong situations and bad mana draws; that particular matchup was tough regardless of the percentages that one might expect. I was not commenting on generalities as I havent faced the matchup enough. Yes 5 fliers was what I had, 2 commander, 2 cliques 1 jenara

luudes

01-17-2011, 06:09 PM

I'm looking back over the list now. Anybody should comment on the card choices and there likes/ dislikes, it will be good for progressing the development of the deck.
In looking at an earlier variant, I remembered my thoughts on the counterspell split. I decided to go up to 6 non FoW daze after deciding against the 4th commander and tried 3 spell pierce, 3 spell snare. This was sometimes situationally ackward so I tried counterspell. A few times the dbl blue was a problem but that was against very mana restrictive matchups, overall I liked no restrictions counter more often than not. Still, I doubt this is the optimal configuration.
The 20th land was maze of ith, thrown in as a 61st card because of the number of creatures in the room. I would cut it or move it to the SB for a 60 card list. It was nice in particular matchups i.e. when behind block a smaller attacker with knight, fetch maze untap the largest attacker.

Koby

01-17-2011, 06:46 PM

Congrats Mike!

I also played Bant to a 22nd place finish but wasn't happy with my Vial list in time for this tournament (still want to test it more). I was on the fence the night before as to whether I should run Vial Bant or not, and ultimately, I wanted to run StP, Spell Snare, planeswalker, and the 20th land for all the Merfolk/CBtop matchups rather than opt or Wasteland, Vial, and Spell Pierce.

Ultimately, it was a choice that I preferred having the removal over the power of Vial that made it good. Turns out, I won many matches with Elspeth against CBtop and the same Deedstill you played in the last round. They have 0 removal for a resolved Elspeth, and that's what counts in those matchups.

I should also mentioned that RWM is stone garbage in the San Jose metagame (Merfolk, CBtop, varietal combo). I cut them out completely and went 5-2-1, losing 2 close matchups in game 3 when I faltered with mana problems (screw, flood), then drew against an irritably slow opponent who wouldn't stop spinning Top twice a turn.

Hanni

01-17-2011, 06:50 PM

I should also mentioned that RWM is stone garbage in the San Jose metagame (Merfolk, CBtop, varietal combo). I cut them out completely and went 5-2-1, losing 2 close matchups in game 3 when I faltered with mana problems (screw, flood), then drew against an irritably slow opponent who wouldn't stop spinning Top twice a turn.

RWM is just fine against Merfolk and CB Top. He's not the best creature in the world in those matchups, but he's far from stone garbage. RWM with a couple of Exalted triggers has won me many a Merfolk matchup, and CBTop... Vial rapes CBTop so hard.

Azania

01-17-2011, 07:10 PM

Ok first: gz luudes :) I am happy to see I am not the only one that has been running 3xNO and Prog in the deck :).

I have tried cc but it always felt awkward. Are flyer's really needed? I do like Clique but never have the real need to have a flier though. i have pretty much thrown it out of my list in favor for kira and 4x pridemage/noble hierarch (can't remember what I exactly changed)

Goaswerfraiejen

01-17-2011, 07:50 PM

Awesome deck. I've been giving it a few goes on MWS, and really enjoy piloting it.

Are flyer's really needed? I do like Clique but never have the real need to have a flier though. i have pretty much thrown it out of my list in favor for kira and 4x pridemage/noble hierarch (can't remember what I exactly changed)

The nice thing about Clique in this deck is that it can act as pseudo-removal or a pseudo-counterspell, effectively hampering the opponent's development while ours goes along unimpeded.

Hanni

01-17-2011, 09:06 PM

I have tried cc but it always felt awkward. Are flyer's really needed? I do like Clique but never have the real need to have a flier though. i have pretty much thrown it out of my list in favor for kira and 4x pridemage/noble hierarch (can't remember what I exactly changed)

Maybe with NO you haven't felt a read need for flyers, but without removal, sometimes the ground gets clogged. Whether that be because the opponent has their own KotR's, Goyf's, Mother of Runes, a million Goblin bodies to chump block, whatever. Flying pushes damage through while the guys on the ground hold the fort down. Exalted + flying wins me alot of games. If you're running NO/Prog, you don't need the flying as much because you have an unblockable 10/10.

Awesome deck. I've been giving it a few goes on MWS, and really enjoy piloting it.

What's your list look like? Glad to see you're enjoying the deck.

Goaswerfraiejen

01-17-2011, 10:09 PM

What's your list look like? Glad to see you're enjoying the deck.

Exactly what you have in the opening post. I want to get a feel for it before I start tinkering--there's no point tinkering blind, after all.

jedi_gof

01-19-2011, 05:14 AM

Played the list from the primer with a few changes yesterday, must say i dig it - gj Hanni+spikey! :)

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [LOR] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Elsebeth
SB: 1 Jace, TMS

I managed to go 4-0-2 top4 split for store credit with the deck, and it was awesome. Loved the U/W tempo deck and this resembles it a lot i play style.

A few things i thought of during this first run with the deck:
1: Spellstutter, though amazing i some MU's, simply does not do enough imo. I would replace them with MMs if playing in a known meta or your beatdown critters if playing in an unknown meta.
2: 1 Basic forest is needed in the deck. Paths are free against you as you cannot find anything, and on a land-light hand T1 forest+hierach/vial just solidifies almost any 2 drops (baring CC/MM). Would actually replace 1 fecth for the forest should i play same list tomorrow.
3: Kira never got relevant but still see the potential in her. Did not run in to Zoo or UW control variants.

I beat the following yesterday.

R1:
Affinity. 3x Pridemage+spellstutters ruined his day as this was a wierd comboish affinity deck. 2-0 oand 1-0 for the day.
R2:
Dreadstill. Lost game 1 one my opp had a totally nuts hand on the play, and kept me totally off lands.Turn 3or4 nought entered with forze+daze back up and gg.
Game 2 an exalted selkie got me back in the game, and stabilized at 2. From there he could just watch my build my army its 1-1. G3 i get 2 vials online and it became a blowout. 2-1 and 2-0 for the day.
R3:
Scapeshift Combo.
Easy piecey, only concern is his wastelock w/u Vial+tabarnacle. Otherwise i like my odds here. Rode on Vials+KotR all the way in both g1+2. 2-0 and 3-0 for the evening.
R4:
Another combodeck, this time a wierd cascade/cycling/living end deck. I know this player, and he has a taste for wackyness. Unfortunately i had not scouted very well, and punted G1. G2+3 Spellstutters + beatdown is good, his bloodmoons doing nothing against pridemages and vials. 2-1 and 4-0. ID last to rounds as i was tired and sure of top 4 with 2 draws.

I will tinker a bit and rapport back after next week where i will be playing the deck again.

-Chris/jedi

luudes

01-19-2011, 03:19 PM

To comment on your list jedi_gof

I think spellstutters are suboptimal, conditional counters without any equipment to pick up seems underwhelming. Ive messed around with the tempo fae builds a bit and dont even really like SSS in that build where it works much better. A replacement should probably be a blue counterspell or at least a blue spell to maintain your blue count. I think I would run no fewer than three pridemages without any other enchant/ artifact destruction around and your 4 may be the right number, it is just one of the better 2 drops in the format. I messed around with selkie a bit and it just seems like a win more card. It is perhaps best in a matchup against counter heavy decks and most counter controls deck run firespout; also, your matchup vs fish is already good. I would move kira to SB for a second MD clique as well as swapping a MD land for karakas (otherwise you are cold to sneak show game 1 if they resolve). I do think elspeth SB is real good and should maybe be a 2.

lordofthepit

01-20-2011, 06:49 AM

1: Spellstutter, though amazing i some MU's, simply does not do enough imo. I would replace them with MMs if playing in a known meta or your beatdown critters if playing in an unknown meta.

Interesting suggestion. I always play at the same store, so I'm tempted to swap out the Coralhelm Commanders for Meddling Mages, thus clearing more space in the sideboard. Anyone else have opinions on this?

lordofthepit

01-21-2011, 05:34 AM

Hanni, have you had any problems with opposing Peacekeepers?

DragoFireheart

01-21-2011, 04:17 PM

I see two issues with this deck:

1. Goblin Lackey.

2. Peacekeeper.

Without removal, you sorta die to those cards.

sclabman

01-21-2011, 04:29 PM

I'm Nick who played against Mike in the feature match at SCG San Jose. This deck is mean and I never had a chance. The amount of countermagic and ability to spit out creatures so quickly makes me think combo must be a bye for this deck.

After losing I ended up trading for 4x Vials just to build it! I do think that the Counterspells could be better served as an additional daze and spell pierce. There should also probably be 4x Noble Hierarchs to maximize your T1 tempo gaining plays (Vial and Hierarch). Furthermore, the Natural Order aspect seems underwhelming and I'd probably cut it and progenitus to experiment with 4x Green Sun Zenith and the Jenara for a fetchable utility creature like Teeg, Eternal Witness, or even Viridian Shaman; but that would require testing.

luudes

01-21-2011, 04:37 PM

goblin lackey is an issue with about every deck in the format... well at least for the last two SCG opens. Regardless, I hear they can be blocked or countered.

Peacekeeper was the hot survival tech; I expect its number in the SB to diminish. Regardless, Im not really concerned about them paying the upkeep on peacekeeper while you sculpt your hand and stack your board sitting behind your tempo counters. I am also not aware of any decks that play peacekeeper preboard which begs the question, "do you board in removal?" with goblins rising in prominence as the attack you dead deck, peacekeeper will become increasingly less frequent as goblins play 4x gempalm incinerator (and if zoo comes back into prominence same deal, burn the keeper). Well at least that is my take on things given experience.

luudes

01-21-2011, 04:43 PM

Nick great to hear from you. Sorry about those bad beats. I have already decided that a necessary change to my build is changing the two counterspells to 2 StPs main. I am also thinking that you are correct about NO although I need to test it more and will probably keep it in until I resolve NO a few times to see how it was. (didnt cast it at san jose) Jenara was a concession to three concepts, green for NO, blue for FOW and something I could cast (thought about archangel for a sec). I would def cut her if I left out the NO package. Without NO I would probably think about more pridemage, 2x elspeth main and perhaps another commander. I do like having 3 hierarchs but that may be a personal preference as I have not found myself at a loss for 1 drops while playing this deck and like daze it is suboptimal when drawn mid to late game. Thanks for the constructive comments!

Ciberon

01-22-2011, 02:40 PM

A blog post regarding this deck and Wasteland (http://blog.ciberon.com/index.php/lackey/discussions-1-relevance-of-a-wasteland).

Azania

01-22-2011, 04:47 PM

From my limited testing I can say that I found NO to be really good, every time I casted it always was a problem for my opponent. It is great mid to late game and can easily destroy any control deck's control over the game. As well end any stalemate very fast. The turn you cast it and you can't attack with it they won't attack either, knowing they will attack straight into it. And exalted will make it only stronger, a lot stronger. Can even kill your opponent in 1 swing if they are low enough.

The only thing I wonder which will be better later on, Green Sun's Zenith or NO. Clearly I am not going to run both at the same time, that would hurt the creature package to much..

menace13

01-23-2011, 07:18 AM

A blog post regarding this deck and Wasteland (http://blog.ciberon.com/index.php/lackey/discussions-1-relevance-of-a-wasteland).

Fine, there's a 22% chance that your first hand of 7 cards is without Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch and a Wasteland by the oponnent will be relevant. And his chance of having it in his opening 7 are less than 40%, so yeah... I think the deck doesn't really care for the first Wasteland.
But... what scenarios make the second Wasteland relevant? Could you help me define criteria for this one?

Being cut off from 2 colors for Pridemage and Coralhelm with any combination of 7 non blue sources 1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy 4 Wasteland. Or No island for Pierce or Daze. The lack of not being able to cast RWM/Cliques.
Coupled with No cantrips or Standstills leaves the deck with more chances of having unwanted cards and no way to dig for match up/situation specific answers or generate CA after attrition battles. That Further makes the opp's Wastes relevant.

Mirrislegend

01-24-2011, 11:19 AM

Finally took this deck to a tournament. Loved it unconditionally so far.

Unfortunately, Merfolk is a nailbiter. I'm not a fantastic player and I'm new to the deck, so I'm fairly certain I'm just not handling it right. Anyone got pointers on beating Merfolk? For reference, my SB plan so far has been -4 KotR, +2 Stoneforge, +1 SoFI, +1 Jitte. I figure both sets of cards are slow in this MU, but the Stoneforge package is more likely to recoup my board position.

Koby

01-24-2011, 11:40 AM

For Merfolk I board out Spell Snare, FoW, and Cliques for 3 SFM 3 Equips and 3 PtE.

Having more spot removal is useful, except if they run Kira.

Mirrislegend

01-24-2011, 12:51 PM

I run the list on page one, at the top. So your specifics aren't relevant ruckus. However, I'm very curious as to why you're cutting your countermagic. Seems like a bad plan.

Koby

01-24-2011, 01:37 PM

I run the list on page one, at the top. So your specifics aren't relevant ruckus. However, I'm very curious as to why you're cutting your countermagic. Seems like a bad plan.

Glad to see you're thinking for yourself!

Spell Pierce is awful vs Vial, unless you magically get it turn 1 on the play, and they don't counter back. Seems like a great card to cut in G2 and G3.
The list on the first page doesn't run any removal SB. This is strictly worse against a field full of Vial aggro and mid-range.
Force of Will against a deck that tries to resolve AEther Vial is also pretty bad, you end up going card-disadvantage where you want to trade 1-for-1 with threats, and win on the back of better, bigger creatures. You will generally win a war of attrition, provided they don't draw 3-4 LoA in a row.

EDIT: Also, keeping KoTR in allows you to get rid of Islands in case LoA does show up. Sometimes, even having Forest out is a disadvantage (Submerge).

I see two issues with this deck:

1. Goblin Lackey.

2. Peacekeeper.

Without removal, you sorta die to those cards.

What he said.

Hanni

01-24-2011, 05:17 PM

For my list, vs Merfolk:

-4 Force of Will
-3 Spell Pierce
-1 Rhox War Monk
+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice
+4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Force of Will and Spell Pierce are both pretty bad in this matchup. The only time I ever really want FoW is when they cast a Perish, which isn't worth it IMO. I increase my threat density in postboard games; equipment + Selkie is pretty good against them, too.

The only games I lose against Merfolk are the ones where they get an early Lord of Atlantis + another lord down, and race me faster than I can race them.

I'd never cut Knight of the Reliquary in this matchup, he's pure gold.

Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I see two issues with this deck:

1. Goblin Lackey.

2. Peacekeeper.

Without removal, you sorta die to those cards.
What he said.

I've beaten Goblin Lackey several times now, but it's difficult. I've already explained this a little more detailed, earlier in the thread, when someone asked the same thing. As far as Peacekeeper goes, I've only ever seen it once in play, and I was capable of Forcing it. Mind you, I've played against alot of Landstill variants so far. Problem is, most Landstill decks probably think I run StP, so they don't bring it in. If the meta were to change to where people were in fact boarding Peacekeeper's, then I'd fit in some Swords to Plowshares in my sideboard. It's not a meta concern for me at the moment, and I'm capable of beating Lackey starts without them (Swords).

The best way to beat a Lackey start, in postboard games, is to drop a SoFI or Jitte and dominate the board that way. Unless they are putting an SGC into play with their Lackey, I'm usually able to get some bigger guys on the board quick enough to hold the ground down until then.

rogue.nine

01-25-2011, 02:05 AM

from Cairo

01-26-2011, 12:10 AM

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5528&iddeck=40028

Saw this on TC Decks, seems like a similar take on this deck concept albeit running the stoneforce package in 5 of its slots but it placed 1st out of 45.

Pulling the old ATS "17 Blue cards, shouldn't support Force of Will, but somehow scrapes by " approach.

I'd feel alot more comfortable pulling a Swords to Plowshares and Windswept Heath from that list in favor of 2 Spell Pierce to up the Blue count to 19. Otherwise I like that list a lot.

Ajsmirnov

01-26-2011, 01:10 AM

why is Dryad Arbor here? just for equipments?

jedi_gof

01-27-2011, 05:14 AM

Heres another small rapport.

The list i played was this:
// Lands
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TE] Forest

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War

// Spells
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Elsebeth
SB: 3 Stp
SB: 1 Jace TMS

I tried out the MM main instead of sprites, and it was so/so... I liked the fact that the sprites was one of the few unrestictive cards CC-wise in the deck and as such i could always play them. However MM was just golden in 2 of the 4 MU's i won against.
I cut 1EA war monk for Jenara, and really liked it as a full set of RWM seems like overkill and Jenara has nice evasion.

I only lost to myself in round 3, where god draws for an opponent whose deck i underestimated steamrolled me. :(

Round 1: Zoo
Zoo, when not going bananas is a positive MU, and this was over before it begon more or less. 2-0 on the back of mana denial and big beats.

Round 2: Extended Jund
Well, this was the round i lost which i should never have lost.
g1 i made a few mistakes and only got him to 1 life, where he stabilized and demigod'ed me
g2 he just nut drawed+i drawed irrelavantly. 0-2 and 1-1 (got blightened 3 times among other stuff)

Round 3: scapeshift combo/lands.
This is a guy playing a lands/scapeshift crossover. second tuesday in a row i meet him and know his deck very well. MM on loam+firespout made my clock too fast for him. G2 became a long affair with me battling seemingly infinite amounts of mazes+tabernacles but eventually got in there for lethal. 2-0 and 2-1 for the night.

Round 4: BantAggro
Well, closest thing to a mirror you can get:)
g1 i keep a tight 1lander with tundra, pierce, daze, hierach, Kotr, waste, goyf. I win the roll, play tundra go. He plays savannah, hiearach, i add blue and daze, which he then forces - i pierce:). waste on his savannah. We both get stock on 1 land for some time, but won even though he was first on 3 mana.
g2 he has t1 noble, t2+3+4 kotr. gg. G3: see game one for the start. Exact same sequence of play, exept this time he had mulled to 6. After manadenying him, it was over quickly. 2-1 and 3-1.

Round 5: Dreadstill.
Double MM + pridemage+vial left him in all kinds of problems with resolving his dreadnoughts, and when kotrs joined the party . 1-0.
G2 i won on my crtters being superior to his tombstalker by having 2x kotr among others, and a clique to slow down his beating. 2-0 and 4-0.

Round 6:
i split for top4 store credit and so i could get home:D 4-1-1

in all an impressive deck so far, just not impressed enough with neither MM or sprite, and CC does not seem good enough to me. So was hoping for a new decent 2cc blue drop in MBS but nothin there.

Record after 2 tourneys w/30ish peoples in both:
18-01-11: 4-0-2, top4
25-01-11: 4-1-1, top4

total so far 8-1-3

Chris

Philipp2293

01-27-2011, 06:50 AM

Have you never considered Coralhelm Commander for that slot? He seems like a legit mana sink too.

nedleeds

01-28-2011, 03:49 PM

JimmyC27

02-01-2011, 03:35 PM

Anyone dinked around with Perimeter Captain on the sideboard? Seems like it'd be a good SB option against Affinity or Goblins. Thoughts?

Koby

02-01-2011, 04:52 PM

Galina's Knight seems better in going blind situations then Mage. He stalls some Goblins (Piledriver excluded), can't be Firespouted / Gempalm'ed / Bolted / Lavamancered, is irritating against Merfolk as the LoA pumps him.

Firespout plagues my local establishment, so the pro-red is useful.

While Galina's Knight is useful vs Merfolk, would Burrenton Forge-Tender be useful in the same slot? It's helpful to have a 1-drop vs Goblins to start blocking their Lackey, and still protects your team from Firespout.

luudes

02-02-2011, 01:18 PM

perimeter captain is pretty solid against goblins and zoo. A little less so against merfolk. Regardless the point is to clog up the ground until your big guys arrive. Captain does a great job of this. Without lackey hitting, they have to cast goblins before gempalm can deal with the captain, by which time you should have a knight active. captain and dueling grounds is quite good in any matchup in which a creature rush is used (gob, merfolk, zoo, etc)

Shimi

02-03-2011, 10:07 PM

Tested the deck today against Zoo and Eva Green(removal heavy), the matchup against BG was nice , Vial + pressure is key.The matchup against Zoo was like 50-50, if they are on play an go Nacatl/Lynx + goyf + burn my little guys things become very complicated, I have Stoneforge pack at SB but it isn't amazing against Zoo, may be NO pack could be a better.The zoo matchup is really 50-50 or am I doing something wrong??

Mirrislegend

02-07-2011, 09:17 PM

Name a deck in this format other than Combo (incl. Dredge, etc), Goblins or Merfolk (goddamn islandwalk). Thrun destroys whatever deck you named. I shouldn't need to explain why; most of you guys aren't idiots.

This deck is especially well positioned to abuse Thrun. Hierarch + KotR means we'll be able to cast this hot 4 drop consistently. And 8x Exalted critters means Thrun will consistently out-size opposing Goyfs.

I know I'm gonna play him as soon as I can get my hands on him. I'm just trying to fit him into the deck! I'm thinking of dropping the 1x Jenara (from the front page list) for him. While I love the evasion of Jenara, I feel like Thrun is good in every MU Jenara is good in and better than her in plenty of others. (NB: tbh, I dunno if I've ever drawn Jenara in a relevant situation, so I could be dead wrong)

However, I'd like to see a 2nd Thrun. And I just don't know where to put him! Any thoughts?

EDIT:
It just occured to me that the 2nd Thrun could easily replace the 1x Vendilion Clique. Thrun beats all control harder than VClique does and is likely much more useful against aggro. However, VClique is a blue Duress vs combo. and if Clique gets cut, I'm a lil worried about losing to Moat >_<

Shimi

02-07-2011, 10:22 PM

Moat is not a problem.. you have daze, pierce , fow , coralhelm , qasali.Thrun seems nice, but with vial and big guys these matchups are good enought, what I'm really concerned is about Goblins/Zoo(fast aggro oppenings).
What about PtE at SB to help against goblins and Zoo??

Mirrislegend

02-21-2011, 09:43 AM

I'm enjoying this deck a lot. It's raw power overwhelms many a deck. But I've been having major trouble with consistency, especially regarding hitting lands. Lack of Brainstorm and Top and, to a lesser extent Ponder and Preordain, doom this deck to being completely draw dependant. With a curve heavily set around 3, this is a major detriment. Also, this weak consistency reduces my ability to use Daze and Spell Pierce effectively.

I'm still running the original list for now, cuz I've learned something new about the deck every time I've played it. But I was eyeing changes like this:
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 RWM (yes, I know he's awesome, but landing just one copy should swing any MU where he's relevant)
-1 Jenara (she hasn't done much for me so far)
+3 Brainstorm

Thoughts?

Mirrislegend

02-25-2011, 11:17 AM

Finally got a chance to play again. Brought it to a 14 man event. 4 rounds, cut to top 4.

R1- Mono U Merfolk:
G1- I drop Vial on turn 1. He drops Standstill on his turn 2. Thx for the win, man.
G2- His Islandwalk gets there
G3- KotR keeps me off Islands. Cold-Eyed Selkie brings down the house :)
W 2-1

R2- Enchantress
I won 2-0 on luck (including his bad luck) and speed

R3- Bant Planeswalker control
G1- Counterbalance was irrelevant against me. But I had no pressure, StP bought him time, Elspeth took the game
G2- He stuck Elspeth and Thrun. Thrun didn't matter, but a misplay on my part slowed me down approx 1.5 turns and Elspeth got there
L 0-2

R4- R/b Goblins
G1- No Warmonks, only one goyf.
G2- He kept a slow hand. However, losing an early warmonk to a misplay, seeing 3x Piledriver, and no equipment until late game = :(
L 0-2

2-2 record doesn't make T4. Probably wouldn't've make T8 >_<

I went -1 MD Spell Pierce, +1 Brainstorm. Didn't hit the Bstorm, so no idea if it works yet

GGoober

02-25-2011, 12:27 PM

G1- I drop Vial on turn 1. He drops Standstill on his turn 2. Thx for the win, man.

Why cant I play Merfolk players who are this bad???

Nidd

03-23-2011, 06:14 PM

Necroing this thread out of curiosity.

Have you guys stopped playing this deck altogether or why is there no traffic in here?
I'm currently considering this deck as my deck of choice for the next Legacy tournament, but I'm hesitant on the number of creatures - are 22 really enough to rock Vial? As far as Vial Aggro goes, I've only played Goblins so far and they have a much larger creature count, making Vial never run dry.

Also, what's the general consensus on Spellstutter Sprite and Stoneforge Mystic? SSS is nice because it's another "free" counterspell that can counter Bolts and Swords, while also being blue for FoW and being able to carry equipment into the red zone.
SFM is very strong and would fulfill the role of the CA spell, as we, unlike Merfolk, don't play Standstill.
As for the equipments, I'll play a Jitte and one of the swords, currently SoFaI is in my list, drawing cards and killing off small dudes while also providing the evasion necessary for MUs like Merfolk and Goblins.
Bonehoard came to my mind as another possible piece of equipment, possibly replacing SoFaI. The advantage of Bonehoard is that it brings a body to the table and it just gets better as the game goes on. It blows when your SFM gets killed before you can bring it in, though.

Also, what's your guys thoughts on a singleton Rafiq as some sort of trump card? I realize that Rafiq + equipment + flying dork is probably asking for too much, but Rafiq + Clique is one hell of a clock.

Q 221

05-27-2011, 12:27 AM

I've been messing around with this list, and recently took it to a couple weeklies.

First run at Die Hard Games, I played Hanni's stock list.

R1: Merfolk
G1: My superior creatures took the game.
SB: Brought in the Stoneforge package and Selkies, removing Daze, Pierce, and some other 1-of.
G2: Kept a hand heavy on 3-drops, and didn't see enough land to reliably use them. Eventually he Submerged my guy and a few lords carried the beats.
G3: Decent amount of threats, stuck a Cold-Eyed Selkie and a Sword of Fire and Ice and just mopped up.
1-0

R2: Zoo
G1: He came out of the gate fast, I didn't see anything amazingly relevant, and I got taken out pretty easily.
SB: Brought in Stoneforge package for Force.
G2: I saw a Stoneforge, but I made the mistake of letting a Lavamancer resolve and it took a heavy toll. Also managed to forget Krosan Grip existed, and didn't pop Wasteland before attempting to equip the Jitte. Eventually he just overwhelmed me.
1-1

R3: Goblins
G1: I kept a hand I probably shouldn't have, knowing this guy was playing Goblins, but he didn't have a Vial or Lackey, and I just took the field with Goyfs and KOTRs.
SB: Brought in Stoneforge package for Pierces and something else.
G2: I kept a 1-lander, he did too. I Forced a Vial, and we sat there drawing dead for like 5 turns. He had a Lackey, I had a second Force. Finally we both got things online, but he was able to rev up the Goblins CA engine too fast, and I didn't have much in hand after double Force. He also brought in GY hate, which was irritatingly useful since my major threats happened to be KOTR.
G3: I Forced his opening Vial, and accelerated into RWM and Knight. He popped a Tormod's Crypt at one point, but it wasn't particularly relevant, I was able to block with Knight, sac a land for a fetch, sac the fetch for a dual, and keep the block favorable. RWM eventually had him double-blocking and chumping to save his last 3-6 life while I was high and dry at 20+.
2-1

R4: Team America
G1: He removed my creatures and dropped an early Goyf. I tried to race with a Coralhelm, but couldn't stick another threat and he eventually won with a second Goyf.
SB: Dazes, Spell Pierces, and maybe a Pridemage came out for SFM and Selkie.
G2: I mulled to 6 and kept a 1-lander with Vial. He Forced the Vial, I couldn't draw another land, and scooped it up pretty quickly after he landed double Goyf.
2-2, and no T8.

I realized I was boarding out Spell Pierce nearly every game. It never really seemed relevant (granted, I played a lot of aggro), became dead too easily, and required me to leave mana open, something that didn't happen often enough. I decided it had to go, and the question of its replacement seemed obvious: Mental Misstep.

Tournament 2: Stock list, replacing Spell Pierce with Mental Misstep.
R1: UGB Tempo with Bob.
G1: We traded threats for a while. I'd eventually stick one, swing once or twice before it got removed. Eventually she ran out of life.
SB: Can't quite remember, think I cut Dazes for the SFM package.
G2: She stuck a Bob and used it to annihilate everything I played. Eventually she had a Goyf to my empty hand and field, and that was that. I hoped for a bad Bob flip, but Brainstorms and eventually a Go for the Throat on Bob cut that option away.
G3: I stuck an early Knight of the Reliquary, and got in for a solid hit before she took it out. A couple threats later, I had a Rhox War Monk and a Noble Hierarch to her 4/5 Goyf. I just swung in with RWM repeatedly to build up some spare life, and just kept throwing down threats, to which she'd find answers. Eventually, at about 36 life, I had a threat and she didn't have an answer, and that was that.
1-0

R2: TurboDrazi
G1: I made a bad call here by Wasting a Trop instead of a Cloudpost to try and cut him off from colored mana sources for Primeval Titan, but he couldn't draw anything and Glimmerpost only prolonged the inevitable. He dropped a Glacial Chasm eventually, I let it tick down his life total, and eventually topdecked a Wasteland to EOT kill it. He had Crop Rotation in response, but I had the Misstep, and it was on to Game 2.
SB: Got rid of RWM and I think Jenara for Meddling Mage and Karakas. I figured if I could get Mage naming Emrakul, he'd have to use Kozilek, which I could repeatedly bounce for long enough to get the final points in.
G2: He couldn't draw a Cloudpost to save his life, and while my hand was a little light on power, I eventually got a Hierarch, a Goyf, and a Meddling Mage and slowly wore him down. When he was frantically digging for a threat, I made the mistake of Forcing a Repeal on a Top to try and take him off his threats. He immediately dropped All Is Dust. I managed to recover with a couple creature topdecks though, and despite the Pithing Needle on Wasteland and a Glacial Chasm, a timely Force on his Primeval Titan allowed me to wear him down.
2-0

R3: UGB Deedstill
G1: He seemed a little mana-light, and I helped him along with a Wasteland or two. I actually had to beat down with a Noble Hierarch for a while, but eventually I started dropping bigger threats and sealed it up.
SB: Took out RWM for Selkie.
G2: We essentially ended up with a war of attrition: at about 10 life, I ran out of threats. I'd topdeck a threat, play it, and he'd have removal, but he couldn't get any threats out. Finally I drew a threat he didn't have an answer for, and that was that.
3-0

R4+R5: Draw.
3-0-2, and that's easily enough to get me into T8.

T8: Thopterbalance.
G1: I started chipping away, and after a Wasteland or two, he was mana-screwed. He finally resolved an Enlightened Tutor for Seat of the Synod, but he couldn't find anything relevant before I finished him off.
SB: Took out RWM for Selkie.
G2: I was doing well, but he eventually got all the counters out of my hand and dropped a Peacekeeper. I had no outs, but decided to play it out for a bit, bluffing Swords and hoping to see a bit more of his deck. I don't think he bought the bluff, and I didn't see anything I didn't already know about, but I still think it was the right move.
SB: I considered trying to squeeze the SFM package in so I had some sort of out to Peacekeeper, but I didn't think I'd be able to swing with a Jitte-equipped creature if he was looking to stick a Peacekeeper. Looking back, I think it might have been the right move just for the card advantage and board position, although I'm not sure what would have come out for it.
G3: I got a solid opener, and despite his Needle on Qasali Pridemage and constant Topping, I got him down to 3 life. He dropped a Peacekeeper, but I had the Force. Unfortunately, at 3 he managed to get an Ensnaring Bridge into play against my board of Hierarch, Knight, and Pridemage. He had nothing in his hand, and with Pridemage Needled, I was in serious trouble. Almost. I untapped, and attacked with my 0-power Noble Hierarch, which Exalted triggers put to a nice 2/3. He went to 1, and started scrambling for an answer. He got a Thopter Foundry into play, and sacced his Top and Foundry to make tokens, but forgot that I had 2 triggers and immediately lost them both. He got a Swords off on the Hierarch, but a turn later I topdecked a second one. A second Foundry didn't help him due to his inability to draw Sword of the Meek, and the Hierarch beats finally sealed the game away.

T4: At this point it was 1:30 in the morning, and sadly enough of the T4 wanted to play it out that I couldn't just split and go home. I decided I really didn't care enough to not get home until 3, and scooped to my opponent. He was playing the RWU Stoneforge list that's been popping up around RI recently, and I don't think I have a good matchup against that anyway, but I was just too exhausted to want to keep going.

The deck seems good, but it's really hard to tell how many of my wins were due to opposing bad luck. It seemed like they were just never drawing what they needed. That being said, I think part of the reason this deck has potential is that it has a fantastic topdeck, since Goyf, Knight, Jenara, and Commander are all game-ending threats on their own, so when we get into a threat v. answer situation, I have a good chance of winning it. I still have yet to run into a combo matchup, though, and I'm really skeptical that this deck has a good matchup. I don't think Meddling Mage is nearly as relevant as it needs to be, and our lack of draw makes the counter suite less effective.

Sidenote: "UGW Vial Bant" is just not a classy enough name for this deck. I'd like to propose D'Hara as the deck name, referencing Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. The D'Haran nation's battle plan was "steel against steel, magic against magic", and the deck seems to embody that principle pretty well.

Hanni

07-13-2011, 04:09 AM

Sidenote: "UGW Vial Bant" is just not a classy enough name for this deck. I'd like to propose D'Hara as the deck name, referencing Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. The D'Haran nation's battle plan was "steel against steel, magic against magic", and the deck seems to embody that principle pretty well.

I prefer direct deck names that get right down to it. I've never been a fan of names like Team America or It's the Fear.

If there were to be a better name than Vial Bant, it'd have to be something that comes close to describing what the deck wants to do. For now, I'm happy calling it Vial Bant.

Anyway, I've been away from this deck for a while, which is probably a good thing. Sometimes when I get too close to a deck or idea, I tend to be resistent to making changes. In the case of this deck, I was trying to model it too closely after Merfolk; but it's not Merfolk.

In lieu of that, I cannot comprehend now, why I would not include Brainstorm. I suppose that my playtesting with Blue Zoo affected my perspective on this. Basically, Brainstorm should not be affecting tempo or threat density whatsoever, because the deck should have other things to be doing early. Once the deck gets to the midgame, where it's out of gas or close to, Brainstorm is right there for the refill.

Contemplating back on previous playtesting with the deck, there were many times during the midgame where I was flooded with lands, Hierarch's, and Vial's, and desperately needed to draw threats. With Brainstorm, the deck can easily keep excess mana producers in hand, turning a midgame Brainstorm into a literal Ancestral Recall. I think adding Brainstorm to the deck will singlehandedly push this deck to another level.

To those who suggested Brainstorm before: you were right, and I was wrong.

U/G/w Vial Bant

// Lands (20)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (20)
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [ROE] Coralhelm Commander
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (20)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

To fit the Brainstorm's, I cut Rhox War Monk, who is unecessary right now with Zoo on the decline. His manacost was also very difficult to hardcast alot of times, and now with Brainstorm, I shouldn't be having mana issues at all.

I've cut Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep, which I believe is the better spell for this deck preboard. I fit the Spell Pierce's in the sideboard, which I feel is stronger than Meddling Mage against combo and control.

4 fliers still gives me enough ways to break ground stalemates, and Brainstorm increases my probability of seeing one. My 3cc curve lightens up a bit, which is overall better for the curve.

I'd really like to fit Mother of Runes into the deck, but the only cuttable card to fit it would be the Noble Hierarch's, and I think the mana fixing + additional accel is going to be more important for this deck overall.

I've also fixed up the manabase. I have no clue why I was running Flooded Strand's, when Misty Rainforest and Windswept Heath fetch every single land in the deck. I fit in a basic Forest, which is nice considering a basic Forest can cast Vial and Hierarch, both of which supply the other color sources of mana. Green is my most important color source, so 1 basic Forest should be fine.

Q 221

07-14-2011, 12:43 AM

I like the idea of Brainstorm in the deck. Speaking from experience, a lot of games with this deck tend to come down to topdeck wars where the opponent's trying to stop a creature sticking long enough to finish them off. Being able to get some card quality and remove late-game land drops seems like just what it needs. I had been toying with a few other card-advantage engines before, even to the point of attempting to maindeck Selkie (did not pan out well).

I'm kind of concerned that the deck doesn't really fit into the modern meta though. Clearly the fast clock with disruption is very nice, as Merfolk's continued success shows, but it seems like a lot of decks should be able to match Vial Bant's threats pound for pound without breaking a sweat. The NoFoW list that took GP Providence is running a very similar creature package, but with MD Swords, GSZ for threats custom-tailored to the board state, and a maindeck SFM package, as well as a couple card advantage slots that can let it pull ahead in control matches. Looking at the DTB section, it seems like there's a lot of aggressive creature-based decks, which at first glance I would expect NoFoW to be stronger against. Do you think the use of Vial and additional counters is sufficient to outrace something like NoFoW or Maverick?

Hanni

07-15-2011, 05:26 PM

I've actually cut a Mental Misstep and a Windswept Heath for 2 more Coralhelm Commander's, because I'm getting absolutely tired of the midgame mana floods. 20 lands + 4 Hierarch + 4 Vial, on a curve that is primarily free (countermagic) and 2cc (creatures) is just too much mana concentration. With Brainstorm now, I'm actually considering going down to 18 lands, but I think trying 19 for now would be safer.

I'm kind of concerned that the deck doesn't really fit into the modern meta though.

I agree with this, but at the same time I disagree. In any metagame where Merfolk can do well, I do not see why this deck cannot. They both do roughly the same thing, except this deck gives up some manabase stability (which is largely a non-issue with Hierarch and Vial), for creature threats that are significantly more powerful on their own. Being in Bant colors also gives the deck more sideboard options. If nothing else, the Zoo matchup is greatly improved compared to Merfolk's, and I would think that in and of itself would warrant more interest in this deck... but I guess not.

menace13

07-16-2011, 12:15 AM

Hanni, you might want to consider replacing Corralhelm and some odd number of Vial, Pridemage and KotR for Stoneforge Mystics and equips.(3/SoF/I/Jitt/Batterskull). The threat density makes the equips active and let's face it even a Noble strapped must be dealt with. I think Coralhelm is roughly the same thing you could be doing with SFM( in terms of mana sink) just not as much value if removed. It will lower the blue count though and RWM/Clique just aren't as good as KotR.

troopatroop

07-16-2011, 01:06 AM

Hanni

07-16-2011, 07:57 AM

SFM would be good, but that takes up alot of space. The only way I could fit in SFM + Equips would be to cut Force of Will, and I'm not sure I'd really want to go that route just yet. Right now, Coralhelm is necessary for my blue spell count. I am at 21 blue spells, so I could possibly cut 2 of them. Past that, I'd have to cut from Hierarch's, Pridemages, Goyfs, or KotR's... and even then, I'd still need to make room for equipment. Cutting Force of Will just seems easier... but is that really worth it, to fit SFM in, when the deck doesn't really need the extra bodies or equips? I really cannot say, and it's something that would need playtested.

I suppose another option could be to cut 0-4 Qasali Pridemage for 0-4 Trygon Predator, allowing me to cut 4 Coralhelm Commander for 2 SFM + 2 Equips. I'd have to cut from other spells to fit additional SFM's. Maybe going to 3 FoW would be appropriate? Again, I really don't know.

Q 221

07-16-2011, 09:30 PM

The SFM package seems rather mana-intensive to me: you need to cast SFM (fetching Jitte for the sake of argument, since it's probably the cheapest to play+equip), drop the Jitte, and equip. That's approximately 6 mana (minus Vial activations), and until you pay all of that, you just have a 1/2 beater. Coralhelm comes out of the gate with 2 power, and flies over ground stalemates at 3 power where the Jitte would just be sitting unequipped. Jitte is probably stronger in the long game against aggro, but most decks should already be prepared to deal with equipment thanks to Maverick/NoFoW/Stoneblade, and it seems like it would slow down the clock against combo/control. Running Batterskull's an option, but with only 19 lands it's probably going to be a dead draw without SFM. Also note that adding a SFM package will reduce the number of creatures in the deck, meaning Vial is going to be less effective. I think it's at the right spot in the board, where it can come in in matches you don't really need Forces for and where the clock is less important than being able to play the attrition game.

Cutting Pridemages for Predators seems like it'd slow down the clock too: less exalted triggers reduce your ability to race opponents with a giant flyer/Knight, and Predator's requirement that it connect before blowing something up seems weaker. Opponents probably won't be nice enough to SFM-vial a Batterskull before the combat phase so you can blow it up with your Predator, and it doesn't seem like there are a lot of decks where blowing up a ton of artifacts/enchantments is really going to make it worth the lower damage.

I don't like the idea of cutting FoW, I think one of the major appeals this deck has over Maverick and NoFoW is that it can run Force and answer stuff like Natural Order and Hive Mind. Without Force, you're just kind of crossing your fingers that you can keep them off their game long enough to win. Possible, but being able to apply that same pressure knowing they have to win a counter war as well gives you a much better chance of winning.

Hanni

08-11-2011, 05:19 PM

Holy Necro, Batman! Well, not really, but it has been about a month since this thread saw any action.

Anyway, I totally remembered about a really sweet ass card that should totally get put into this deck: Nantuko Monastery. I mean, I know the manabase is already greedy, but Knight of the Reliquary can friggin tutor for the guy. A 4/4 First Strike, especially with all of the Exalted triggers, is pretty gnarly.

I've also decided to cut FoW from the maindeck for the SFM package. I realize this basically turns the deck into a G/W Maverick deck with a light blue splash and Vials, but it's still Vial Bant to me. Besides, I still have FoW's in my 75.

Alot of times in most matchups, FoW is just pitching my gas. There is not a whole lot of stuff that this deck really wants to Hymn to Tourach itself, to stop.

SFM is sorta like my Silvergill Adept. It's a body that replaces itself, except rather than a random off the top draw, I'm getting a Jitte or a Batterskull. Jitte turns even a lonely Noble Hierarch into a serious threat. Jitte improves my Goblins matchup, and Batterskull improves my Merfolk and control matchups.

Nantuko Monastery should improve my control matchups too.

G/W/u Vial Bant

// Lands (21)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Tundra
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (21)
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War

// Spells (18)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

After alot of thought between running either Spell Pierce or Meddling Mage in my sideboard to compliment the FoW's, I decided to go with the Mage. Mage helps me maintain my creature count to get the most out of Vial, beats for 2 (or more w/ Exalted), and is pretty good at stopping critical combo spells like Natural Order and Show and Tell from resolving.

I lose my fliers maindeck (minus the single Jenara), but I make up for it with Jitte I guess.