5/8 of the last SCG5k Top 8 had Vial

[CorpT]

Including 1st thru 4th. Can we talk about getting it banned now?

Decklists
(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-01-09&end_date=2011-01-09&city=Kansas+City)

1st: Goblins
2nd: U/B Merfolk
3rd: R/B Goblins
4th: Green and Taxes
6th: BW Tempo

Seems like Vial is holding back the metagame.

[anonymos]

Maybe if you get them listed as

Vial red
Vial blue
vial r/g
vial g/w

then they'll see it being there. I don't think vial is on the same level as Survival.

[menace13]

OMFG!
Ban Vial NOW!

[sdematt]

It's not ban worthy. Annoying, but not ban worthy.

Was the Vengevine Survival strategy ban worthy? It was much more powerful than Vial, that's for sure.

-Matt

[Fossil4182]

Vial isn't as powerful as Survival. For example, top decking vial in the late game does not equal a win in the same way Survival would. Its not close to being on the same power level by most metrics. If we're using the frequency of a card's appearance in top eights, Force of Will and Wasteland have appeared in more top eight decks than just about any other card at the 5K's. While I'm guessing the tone of this thread is sarcastic in nature, which I appreciate, WotC will never ban Vial or any other card that appears in the top eight unless it is degenerate or the printing of new cards make it so powerful that it necessitates banning. Even with the printing of obscenely powerful creatures, vial doesn't get that much better in comparison to a card like Survival which can tutor the creatures out.

As a support for this post though, its not like WotC tests when they decide to ban cards so it is possible they may decide to if the top eights look the same for the next few months. The process of banning is not transparent and is inconsistent in its implementation so you never know. Again, its piss poor game management that WotC designs cards without seeing what impact they will have on eternal formats; this only results in cards getting banned because of unforeseen interactions. Basically, Legacy players get screwed when sets are designed and when it comes to format management. Thanks WotC :-)

[alderon666]

Pithing Needle might actually stop Vial... LOL
It's nice to see all the different colors playing Vial.

[AriLax]

The main thing keeping Vial around is that all of the Vial decks are fundamentally unique, much in the same way Force of Will is played in CB Top, Landstill, Merfolk, and Reanimator/Show and Tell. Despite all playing creatures, Goblins functions differently than Merfolk which is different from Wx Hate.dec. All of the Survival decks were pretty much the same, differing mainly in the disruptive package.

Aether Vial is also relatively slow and easy to beat as a card unless you are relying heavily on counterspells to interact with your opponent.

[Koby]

This will set a dangerous precedent if it's true.

June 2011, Counterbalance and Sensei's Top banned, for being in Top 8.
September 2011, Lion's Eye Diamond banned for being colorless.
December 2011, Wild Nacatl banned for being too damn aggressive.
March 2012, Aether Vial banned for cheating at Magic.
June 2012, Brainstorm banned for drawing more than 1 card per turn.
September 2012, Ponder restricted for being the same mana cost as Brainstorm and looking at 3 cards.
December 20th, 2012 - End of the world.

You laugh now...

[Al-ucard]

There are a lot of decks playing vial because there are a lot of decks playing FoW...

[jazzykat]

I hope my whole meta plays vial. I gurantee I have a whole bunch of decks that smash most/all vial decks. SotF was a turn 4 combo deck part of the time/Ridiculous CA engine part of the time, silver bullet tutor, and uncounterable HASTED vengvine beats. Statistics show that survival was at about 60% vs. the whole field!!! Vial is not over powered, this thread should be locked for pure lameness.

[arebennian]

I don't think that the original poster was totally serious.

[Nidd]

Hey guys, I figured out the problem cards.

No, not creatures. There are decks that don't run creatures and they still win.

The problematic cards are the lands. Every deck plays lands!

Ban lands! Now!

On a more serious note, what's the point of this thread except baiting?

[Cabal_chan]

Including 1st thru 4th. Can we talk about getting it banned now?

Not quite. You have to follow the cookbook.

5 cups of SCG Opens dominated.
27 teaspoons of people crying over how unfair the card is.
1 ounce of 'look at the win % guys it beats the whole format!!'
Stir well.
Add three 'we're people from outside the format but we're going to comment anyway'.
One 'Gentlemen's agreement'.
Bake in an oven at 911 degrees Fahrenheit.
One BS(that's big scoop) 'the Banned list is meant to promote diversity in the format'.
Enjoy. Enough to serve an entire format of players.*

*Please note that serving size is based on stock ingredients and will change as ingredients are changed. Surgeon General's Warning, view discretion is advised.

[colo]

I hope my whole meta plays vial. I gurantee I have a whole bunch of decks that smash most/all vial decks. SotF was a turn 4 combo deck part of the time/Ridiculous CA engine part of the time, silver bullet tutor, and uncounterable HASTED vengvine beats. Statistics show that survival was at about 60% vs. the whole field!!! Vial is not over powered, this thread should be locked for pure lameness.

qft.

[dahcmai]

Not that I think Vial is broken or anything, but I'd love to ban that card just out of principle. It's such a turn dudes sideways card. It does make you wonder if there's such a thing as a creature deck that can keep up without it?

[Cenarius]

1. The metagame will not be balanced once Aether Vial is banned.

2. Have you ever considered decks that win in a certain metagame or shift your sideboard to a certain metgame? It's called metagame'ing.

3. Our last top 8 (in the Netherlands) was:

48 players.
2 UGR Tempo Threshold
1 Zoo
1 Dredge
1 Countertop
1 Goblins
1 Eva Green
1 TES

Now that's what u call a healthy metagame. Even in the Vengevival/Survival metagame our top 8's showed a large number of different decks. I'm not saying that our players know how to create sideboards due to a specific metagame, but it just might be the case.

[Grollub]

Not quite. You have to follow the cookbook.

5 cups of SCG Opens dominated.
27 teaspoons of people crying over how unfair the card is.
1 ounce of 'look at the win % guys it beats the whole format!!'
Stir well.
Add three 'we're people from outside the format but we're going to comment anyway'.
One 'Gentlemen's agreement'.
Bake in an oven at 911 degrees Fahrenheit.
One BS(that's big scoop) 'the Banned list is meant to promote diversity in the format'.
Enjoy. Enough to serve an entire format of players.*

*Please note that serving size is based on stock ingredients and will change as ingredients are changed. Surgeon General's Warning, view discretion is advised.

This dish goes exceptional well with cheese and whine by the way.

[TossUsToLions]

7/t16 played Force of Will! Ban it now!
7/t16 played Tarmogoyf! Ban it now!
16/t16 (yeah, i know. ALL of them!) played lands. Ban them all!!!!

[ReAnimator]

There is total precident for banning this card! It was banned in Standard and i think extended too, it remains banned in mirroden block constructed to this very day!!!1!!

[Pastorofmuppets]

Hey guys, I figured out the problem cards.

No, not creatures. There are decks that don't run creatures and they still win.

The problematic cards are the lands. Every deck plays lands!

Ban lands! Now!

On a more serious note, what's the point of this thread except baiting?

If lands get banned, then what stops Vial from being in every deck?

[Tammit67]

If lands get banned, then what stops Vial from being in every deck?

What stops the format from becoming dredge v dredge mirrors all day?

[Rico Suave]

What stops the format from becoming dredge v dredge mirrors all day?

Belcher.

[Mana Drain]

Pithing Needle might actually stop Vial... LOL
It's nice to see all the different colors playing Vial.

I agree with this. Totally awesome to see Black, Green and White getting some Vial love.

For what it's worth: Vial > Counterbalance, FoW BUT... Engineered Explosives, Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle, and Nature's Claim > Vial.

[Hanni]

Vial is probably the best card in the format right now, so it's no suprise to me that 5 of the Top 8 decks are running it.

Vial, for the most part, invalidates an entire archetype (control), and makes aggro decks alot more powerful, period. In the decks that are built around Vial, a turn 1 Vial is easily capable of generating 7+ mana by turn 4, for 1 mana investment. That's more mana than even a Black Lotus would produce, let alone the other benefits, like uncounterable instant speed creatures.

(Don't misinterpret what I'm saying: I'm not comparing it to Lotus, because obviously 0 mana investment for an instant 3 mana is completely different.)

Expect to see more and more aggro decks changing the way they are built, to include Aether Vial, in the coming months.

[Aggro_zombies]

Not all aggro decks want Vial, though. Tempo decks will use Vial because it makes creatures for free, and tribal decks will make Vial because their curves are higher. A deck like Zoo doesn't have much use for Vial because neither the mana savings nor the instant-speed-ness of the card make up for it not doing damage.

[Nidd]

Vial is probably the best card in the format right now, so it's no suprise to me that 5 of the Top 8 decks are running it.

Vial, for the most part, invalidates an entire archetype (control), and makes aggro decks alot more powerful, period. In the decks that are built around Vial, a turn 1 Vial is easily capable of generating 7+ mana by turn 4, for 1 mana investment. That's more mana than even a Black Lotus would produce, let alone the other benefits, like uncounterable instant speed creatures.

(Don't misinterpret what I'm saying: I'm not comparing it to Lotus, because obviously 0 mana investment for an instant 3 mana is completely different.)

Expect to see more and more aggro decks changing the way they are built, to include Aether Vial, in the coming months.
I agree. But Control decks have the tools to fight Vials. We have Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle and Nature's Claim, that normally does the trick for me.

Also, they only have Vial in like 40-45% of the games (can't remember the exact percentage and I'm too lazy to recalculate it myself).

[Hanni]

I agree. But Control decks have the tools to fight Vials. We have Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle and Nature's Claim, that normally does the trick for me.

Also, they only have Vial in like 40-45% of the games (can't remember the exact percentage and I'm too lazy to recalculate it myself).


It's not just the card Aether Vial itself that positions the aggro decks well against control. All of the successful Vial decks have a very large threat density (they have more threats than you have answers), and they usually have mana denial. Vial isn't the only accelerant; Goblins has Lackey, Bant has Hierarch, Merfolk has Cursecatcher (doesn't accelerate it, but it slows down the opponent). Combine this with effective ways to slow the opponent down (Goblins has Wasteland/Port, Merfolk has Daze/Spell Pierce), and you see a common trend on why these decks are so vicious against Control decks. These decks are all tempo abusers, both by advancing their own board, and by hindering their opponents board. Control decks are typically slow decks, and are hit very hard by the combination of all of these elements.


Not all aggro decks want Vial, though. Tempo decks will use Vial because it makes creatures for free, and tribal decks will make Vial because their curves are higher. A deck like Zoo doesn't have much use for Vial because neither the mana savings nor the instant-speed-ness of the card make up for it not doing damage.


I agree in the case of Zoo, because Zoo is built around very efficient 1 mana creatures and 1 mana removal spells. Zoo is only one of few aggro decks that wouldn't be improved by using Aether Vial, though.

[Eldariel]

So...Vial encourages diversity by giving us aggro-decks capable of fighting the control which in turn is better positioned to fight combo which on the other hand beats up on aggro? That sounds like a healthy metagame to me, especially since every one of those archetypes has means to combat the tools the "weak match-up" beats them. I don't know about you, but banning Vial sounds incredibly silly; hay, let's make Countertop even better!

For the record, control is far from obsoleted by the card; it simply gives aggressive decks a different angle to attack control-decks, which notably makes Countertop something but the automatic option for your main card advantage effect.

[Hanni]

So...Vial encourages diversity by giving us aggro-decks capable of fighting the control which in turn is better positioned to fight combo which on the other hand beats up on aggro?

Merfolk doesn't get beat up by combo though, and neither does Bant. Force of Will is what keeps combo in check, not necessarily Counterbalance.


I don't know about you, but banning Vial sounds incredibly silly; hay, let's make Countertop even better!


The only people saying Vial deserves to be banned are the people being sarcastic, and I know I myself don't feel that it needs to be banned either. I was simply stating that it's no suprise that 5 of the Top 8 decks were running Vial.


For the record, control is far from obsoleted by the card; it simply gives aggressive decks a different angle to attack control-decks, which notably makes Countertop something but the automatic option for your main card advantage effect.

Control isn't obsoleted, it's just positioned very badly. However, it's been positioned very badly for some time, but that's also likely due to the dominance of Merfolk (and to a lesser extent, Goblins).

[TsumiBand]

Threads like this are hardly readable. There needs to be like a sarcastic font, like, Sarcastic Ariel or Bullshit Dingbats or some junk. Like, I want to respond? But I'm not sure how.

I recall a discussion early on in my Magic: The Gathering experience, where I was a stolid, die-hard, unrelenting and unapologetic dyed-in-the-wool G/W Beatdown player. Like, I was taking Anurid Brushhopper to meet my mom after dates and shit. And I was looking at my deck like, "God dammit, I wish there were some way for me to play more Wild Mongrels" because Mongrel was like, the best Madness outlet. And I found out about this card, Eladamri's Call. And I found out, you can play FOUR OF THEM. Even though it's a tutor!! I was stoked and flabbergasted at this revelation, because I already knew that things like Vampiric and Demonic Tutor were restricted. And I said this to my friends, I said, "omfg u guys, u can play F4R Eldamri's Calls in Vintage, wtfwtfwtf" and they were all like, ".... um, yes dude, it only searches for *creatures*. God."

Don't get me wrong, good aggro-control is like, every Legacy deck that isn't combo, I know I know. But c'mon, Aether Vial? The format has staples, at what point does a card start looking less like an auto-include into *insert archetype here* and more like a format warping card that demands the banhammer? Does anyone here really lack that understanding of Eternal formats?

The worst part is, I feel like a troll-ass troll for even responding. Fuck!

[markbris]

All I know is the top 16 was more diverse than I can recall it being in a long long time so I'm pretty happy with everything.

[from Cairo]

Vial is probably the best card in the format right now, so it's no surprise to me that 5 of the Top 8 decks are running it.


All I know is the top 16 was more diverse than I can recall it being in a long long time so I'm pretty happy with everything.

I agree with these statements.

Vial is a powerful card, but it's also a card that facilitates a bunch of diverse archetypes. As everyone has pointed out it takes a few turns to come online, can be answered by many commonly played cards, and is weaker the later in the game you get it, etc, etc.

It's powerful but it's balanced in terms of Legacy.

[Tacosnape]

Black decks run Thoughtseize. Blue decks run Force of Will. Green decks run Tarmogoyf. Tribal and Aggro decks run Aether Vial. There isn't a problem. Stop being ridiculous. Turn one Aether Vials are completely handleable.

Aether Vial thrives because it punishes decks that rely on Countermagic and/or Mana Denial.

Want your stat? 7 of the top 8 (All but Affinity) decks relied on Countermagic and/or Mana Denial.

Hence why Aether Vial rose to the top.

[GGoober]

Merfolk doesn't get beat up by combo though, and neither does Bant. Force of Will is what keeps combo in check, not necessarily Counterbalance.



The only people saying Vial deserves to be banned are the people being sarcastic, and I know I myself don't feel that it needs to be banned either. I was simply stating that it's no suprise that 5 of the Top 8 decks were running Vial.



Control isn't obsoleted, it's just positioned very badly. However, it's been positioned very badly for some time, but that's also likely due to the dominance of Merfolk (and to a lesser extent, Goblins).

This is true, although I think the fairer statement is:

Vial needs to be in the format or the format will be primarily control-based decks v.s. combo or Zoo etc. Gobs and Merfolks without Vial would not be viable in my opinion. These decks have a slight advantage over control decks with Vials with merfolks having the best matchup against control. Without Vial, it becomes hard for a tribal deck to gain tempo unfairly unless you're playing Elves, and without this way to gain tempo, you cannot beat the control spells that a control player has. What really beats control is the tempo gain from Vial (aside from the other commonly played cards e.g. Wasteland/Daze). Without Vial, a control player is basically playing against a normal aggro player with no way to accelerate e.g. via Mox Diamond/Hierarch, and hence will never really be in a pressured position, not to mention when the control player starts chaining draws and sweepers, it's game over.

Vial prevents this from happening. It gives these decks the edge to compete, and to a control deck, it's problematic, but it's not impossible to deal with, in fact being 1cmc and waiting a turn already means that there are plenty of answers to Vial. Note that Gobs/Merfolks DO suffer when they keep a vial-dependent hand and they have their Vial answered. It is by deck design that they have shifted their deck to accommodate Vial, and to abuse the tempo gains. Control just has to be able to answer this and things will look good. But if they can't, then it's bad. Seems all fair to me, it's really just Merfolks that's unfair for control players :P

[Koby]

Clearly normal Affinty is doing it wrong.

Gentlemen, I present Tempo Affinity...j/k

or am I?

[Lemnear]

Fantastic guys! FYI Survival at any time of the Game was handleable too and I won't list here all the counter, discard, enchantment hate etc. Available. ;p

A turn 1 vial cheats up to 6 mana turn 4 ... That's a bunch and Not the end of the line looking at the following turns. It isn't color bound and gives all creatures "haste", slipping them eot into play. Moreover it get's better with every creature printed. I would say it shares a lot with survival... As Survival shares with necro (bullshit overload!). Comparing it with Lotus was the same level the necro/Survival was discussed ... Love it

May I should feed this topic with the next few T8 :d

[FieryBalrog]

Yea, let's have a format full of Counterbalance mirror matches! Are we excited yet??!

[Rune]

OP is, in case someone didn't notice, hardcore trolling. Possibly a butt hurt Survival player who is now semi-seriously trying to make some kind of point. jazzykat already explained it well. If anyone really wants to argue that Vial is comparable to Survival in power level, I hope it's just the crack addiction talking.

[SilverGreen]

Please, stop this shit about dominant cards and top 8 slots and blablabla, AGAIN. Last times you, lazy and accomodate people, began complaining about such things, we got these unnecessary and stupid bannings on Mystical Tutor and SotF. Are you not satisfied yet?

[Odd Mutation]

Hi all,

Brian Demars has Aether Vial very high on his 'Power 9 of Legacy':

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20888_Vintage_AvantGarde_The_Legacy_Power_Nine.html

Robrecht

[codegeass]

Please, stop this shit about dominant cards and top 8 slots and blablabla, AGAIN. Last times you, lazy and accomodate people, began complaining about such things, we got these unnecessary and stupid bannings on Mystical Tutor and SotF. Are you not satisfied yet?

They just won't be satisfied until every useful card is banned. It is really stupid don't play legacy if you want to whine about every decent card ever printed. They need to make this kinds of post illegal it is trolling. The only time a card should be banned if it is wapping the format entirely. Making it impossible to play any other deck then the one that plays the format wapping card. Just because a card shows up in multiple teir 1 decks dose not mean it needs to be banned. Aether vial dose not need to be banned. And nothing else dose at the current time until a new wapping format deck come out.

[k2thej]

Not that I think Vial is broken or anything, but I'd love to ban that card just out of principle. It's such a turn dudes sideways card. It does make you wonder if there's such a thing as a creature deck that can keep up without it?

Elves Combo. Elves combo is far and away the most underrated legacy deck. In fact, I was very upset when they banned survival, I didn't play it so not because of that, but because of how easily I trounced the deck with elves. I was playing at the stg open in MA during the peek of survival and I faced it 4 times and went 4-0, not to mention I didn't even lose one game to it. There are very, very few cards that are ban worthy, people just refuse to change their strategy and adapt; they would rather keep trying the same shit and have the format adapt to them. That's not how it works.

[OurSerratedDust]

Isn't it a little early to start pointing fingers at which cards should be banned because they make the format "unhealthy?" Survival was banned less than a month ago, and the format still has some settling to do.

Personally, I think that the format will return to a state similar to before Vengevine was printed. There wasn't anything unhealthy about that metagame then, so give it some time.

[dahcmai]

Lol, this is so funny. I wonder how many people are going to stop later and be like "Wait, you guys weren't serious?" ahahaha

[FieryBalrog]

Lol, this is so funny. I wonder how many people are going to stop later and be like "Wait, you guys weren't serious?" ahahaha

It sounds like the OP is more butthurt about Survival/trolling/waaah'ing than joking.

[Koby]

Basically, we all know what everyone will be looking out for, and just humorously predicting the QQ/waaaaa'hing that will be rampant in 3 months time.

It's funny, because it's true.

[Oibade]

I agree! Let's ban Aether Vial!

Then... Let's ban Tarmogoyf! (Remember: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15964-[Free-Article]-Would-Legacy-Be-Better-Off-Without-Tarmogoyf)

So... Sensei's Divining Top?

Hey... Storm spells?

Uhm... Counterbalance?

Err... Force of Will?

Ouch... Wasteland!

...Seriously, these rants have to stop, or the card bloodshed never will.

Hypothetically: the less cards on the ban list possible, the better. Sometimes, though, it is necessary.

@Survival: I know, that sucks.

[ummon]

Personally I'm lobbying to get Counterbalance banned. I don't think there is anything broken about the card, but I hate playing against it.

[majikal]

Vial Goblins just took SCG San Jose. Looks like WotC got their wish of turning Legacy into an aggro-centric format. :\

[Michael Keller]

Vial Goblins just took SCG San Juan. Looks like WotC got their wish of turning Legacy into an aggro-centric format. :\

That's because there are only a handful of competent Combo players and each and every other person who wants to win money is banking their fortunes on the cheapest, most efficient aggro decks (i.e. Merfolk, Goblins) and punishing the Control decks - who are already sending the Combo players to the loser's bracket - only to be smashed by those other two.

[Lemnear]

Btw ... 24 Jace TMS again in T8 SCG SJ Standard Open! Third Time in a row with 24 Jace in a grand tournament T8 ... Fantastic ... *facepalm*

[dontbiteitholmes]

That's because there are only a handful of competent Combo players and each and every other person who wants to win money is banking their fortunes on the cheapest, most efficient aggro decks (i.e. Merfolk, Goblins) and punishing the Control decks - who are already sending the Combo players to the loser's bracket - only to be smashed by those other two.

I think Merfolk being so heavily played is really cutting into the viability of Combo. I mean as much as people like to pretend that Merfolk is practically a bye for a good ANT player we all know that in reality it's not that simple. Between Force, Daze, Cursecatcher, Spell Pierce/Snare, Stifle, and Wasteland there's around 30% of the average Merfolk MD that is relevant against you. Add to that sideboard and the fact you will likely face Merfolk 2-3 times if you stay in contention and odds are pretty good one of those matches will slide away from you. Then don't forget discard decks are picking up steam and the ever present Counterbalance as well as random sideboard crap that can blow you out from time to time.

People like to act like Combo is this mysterious force that no one can seem to play right, and that if someone who knew how to play the deck extremely well came along they would almost be assured a top 8. Combo, be it ANT or WelderStone or Belcher or w/e will still lose from time to time just like any other deck. Sometimes you will have to go for it before you get to play all your protection and get blown out. Sometimes you will fizzle for no good reason and get killed by your own deck. Sometimes Merfolk will topdeck a counter after you Thoughtsieze away their Force and you will eat it when you thought you were safe. Sometimes you will keep a turn 1 kill on the draw and get Thoughtsiezed and go on to lose. Sometimes you will keep a hand with the old "As long as they don't have Wasteland/Mindbreak Trap/whatever" I win and then they do and you lose. It's just like any other deck, it's not like playing Solitaire and you just have to play perfect to win. People are ever aware of combo especially storm based combo. Almost no one goes completely naked to it in the sideboard, this is especially true of newer players which are all over the place in the first 3-4 rounds.


Edit
I'm pretty sure 95% of the people saying ban Vial are joking, but in all reality if anyone wanted to ban anything at this point they need to sell all their duals and go play Extended. Format is adjusting right now but it's still WIDE open.

Seriously I think the Source needs to go back to the old school days where people were whining it was too elitist. F'in noobs get away with murder now adays. How does a thread about banning Force of Will not get closed by the first moderator that sees it? I'm in favor of at least marking people who continually cry for cards to be banned with a status that says they are not qualified to be making that call. For the record I'm not shedding any tears about Survival being banned. I thought the format would adjust and it didn't happen, but the other 95% of the time it does. Vine-Survival was the exception not the rule and we don't need people continually crying about bannings every time Starcity posts a top 8.

[Hanni]

I don't think Mystical Tutor nor Survival needed to be banned, and to be quite honest, I think they need to take Mystical Tutor off the banned list if Control is to become playable again. That, or ban Vial, but I am 100% completely against bannings* and think things need to come off the list, not go on to it.

*Of course, if something like Flash Hulk happens again, then yes, it needs banned. Stuff really has to be degenerate to warrant a ban hammer though.

[jazzykat]

I think they need to unban SotF and Mystical and just ban Vengevine but that won't happen. Honestly, I love all these vial decks all we as control players need to do, is play more board control and less stack control. I am sure we still know how to 2 for 1...

[frenchy-man]

On the other hands most european forums are still laughing because of the decklists. Unbelievable to see such build mistakes in top 16...

[FieryBalrog]

On the other hands most european forums are still laughing because of the decklists. Unbelievable to see such build mistakes in top 16...

That's amusing, because everytime someone posted a Euro top 8 to prove how non-broken Survival was it was full of some ridiculous jank.

[GGoober]

That's amusing, because everytime someone posted a Euro top 8 to prove how non-broken Survival was it was full of some ridiculous jank.

And in the eyes of someone who has no idea on what these jank deck does, it's jank, just as Vengevival started off as a joke and a N&D deck designed by CalebD that people criticized, which eventually turned into a beast of the format.

Watch your words with what you call 'jank'. If you are not the creator nor the pilot or have any idea of what these decks do, do not make a claim. In most people's eyes, decks like Elf combo etc may seem janky, but results do show otherwise. A less popularly-played deck may not always be a jank deck. A jank deck is a deck that was built with an idea but on principle fails in testing. Results are everything, and I know what decks I have designed are jank and non-jank despite what people term them as.

I'm not addressing this to you specifically, but also to frenchyman, and even myself, that when we say 'build mistakes' or 'jank', what do you exactly mean? How so? did you pilot the deck? Did you know the ins/outs, or planned for the card choices for a meta that you were preparing for? I guess the idea of 'jank' is more accurately described in vintage. People classify the non-common decks as Jank and it is quite a commonly used term to describe decks without Power or Yawgwin, Vaultkey as "Jank", but surprisingly, these jank decks are the prime examples of metagamed deck that win games. They probably only work in specific metagames, but I think the beauty of that is actually admiring what the principles behind deck-building/jank-building when you are planning to win a tournament.

[frenchy-man]

That's amusing, because everytime someone posted a Euro top 8 to prove how non-broken Survival was it was full of some ridiculous jank.

Yeah decks like elfball. Oh wait, have you realised now that it is a good deck or do you still underestimate it ? There is a difference between rogue decks (remember, VV was played in jank decks for a long time, until we realised it was not that bad actually...) and bad players or decks badly built.

@ metalwalker : by build mistake, I mean, for example (nearly every list seems to be a joke), 16 lands in merfolk, 18-19 lands in gob.

[Rune]

He forgot his Mutavault at home in his T1.X deck, so he just went with +4 spells instead. Seems reasonable, considering how much worse the deck gets without the Mutavaults. You can also mulligan more aggressively for the Aether Vial when your deck is all gas, so it was probably better than going +4 Islands.

[ummon]

Vial Goblins just took SCG San Juan. Looks like WotC got their wish of turning Legacy into an aggro-centric format. :\

It's San Jose, California, not San Juan (which is in Puerto Rico). Well, it was held in Santa Clara technically, but it's still called San Jose.

[majikal]

It's San Jose, California, not San Juan (which is in Puerto Rico). Well, it was held in Santa Clara technically, but it's still called San Jose.
Look out, it's the typo police!

[Benjammn]

Including 1st thru 4th. Can we talk about getting it banned now?

Decklists
(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2011-01-09&end_date=2011-01-09&city=Kansas+City)

1st: Goblins
2nd: U/B Merfolk
3rd: R/B Goblins
4th: Green and Taxes
6th: BW Tempo

Seems like Vial is holding back the metagame.
Sounds like people need to play EE again.

Or something similar. Playing Vials vs. Countertops is a nice meta call for those saying CB was the DTB.