[SCD] Sinkhole

[jazzykat]

Sinkhole once a powerhouse card in Legacy has primarily been relegated to the sidelines. Given that so many powerful spells cost 3 and 4 mana now, is it time for it to re-emerge?

Granted there are still all the bomb 2 drops but with Firespout, Jace, Elspeth, KotR, Trinket Mage, etc. having found their way into so many decks maybe it is time to re-evaluate the card.

There is also an uptick in multi-colored manabases and the flavor of the month with Spring Tide that also likes lands.

I think the most important reason not to play Sinkhole is that you are wasting your second turn blowing up an opponents land but otherwise doing nothing to advance your board.

What just occurred to me, is to play Sinkhole (Wasteland and perhaps Stifle) with Aether Vial. That way you lose almost no tempo and have a strong way around CB through the Vial.

Has anyone been testing this card lately?

[Hanni]

My favorite application of Sinkhole:

B/w/g Deadguy Rock

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Scrubland
4 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask
SB: 4 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ON] Gigapede

Sinkhole is still going to be bad against a deck like Zoo, which gets board pressure down before Sinkhole is relevant, and requires that your resources focus on their creatures rather than their manabase. Otherwise, the land destruction gameplan literally wrecks so many decks it's not funny.

Note: the land destruction gameplan is still effective against Big Zoo. I was referring to traditional Fast Zoo above. Against Fast Zoo, I cut 4 Sinkhole's for 4 Death Mark's postboard.

[arebennian]

I know vindicate isn't exactly a tempo card, but I was always interested in seeing the following in a tempo shell or perhaps a dreadstill variant:

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
4 Sinkhold
4 Vindicate

[bokepa]

Maybe something like:


LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Undreground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

CREATURES
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Fulminator Mage
2 StoneForge Mystic


SPELLS
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Sinkhole
2 Vindicate
4 Brainstorm
2 Unearth
1 Umezawa Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

SIDE

1 Academy Ruins
2 Nihilit Spellbomb
3 Enginyered Plague
3 Perish
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ratched Bomb
1 Enginyered Explosives

[jamis]

Sinkhole is still going to be bad against a deck like Zoo, which gets board pressure down before Sinkhole is relevant, and requires that your resources focus on their creatures rather than their manabase.
Not true. When I used to play Eva Green, Sinkhole was pretty much the only way to win that match-up. In my experience, Zoo players generally keep fairly mana-light hands for hands with more business, so 3-4 land destruction can usually put them away (sometimes less, but it's best to try to mulligan for a hand with at least two LD effects). Not only that, but the loss in lands shrinks their Nacatls and Kird apes, which allows your creatures to out-class them. Traditional is hurt much more than big zoo since they don't have heirarch to make up for the loss of land.

edit: I guess Snuff out also helps make Sinkhole good since you don't have to worry about whether you need to use mana to destroy creatures or land.

[jazzykat]

Not true. When I used to play Eva Green, Sinkhole was pretty much the only way to win that match-up. In my experience, Zoo players generally keep fairly mana-light hands for hands with more business, so 3-4 land destruction can usually put them away (sometimes less, but it's best to try to mulligan for a hand with at least two LD effects). Not only that, but the loss in lands shrinks their Nacatls and Kird apes, which allows your creatures to out-class them. Traditional is hurt much more than big zoo since they don't have heirarch to make up for the loss of land.

edit: I guess Snuff out also helps make Sinkhole good since you don't have to worry about whether you need to use mana to destroy creatures or land.

Yeah, I was going to say, that color screwing them was the only way I won when I used to play tempo Thresh vs. them.

@Hanni: I like your rock list. The mana looks a bit high, and I originally started this post to discuss why Bob wasn't in every deck (no not quite but you get the idea) so I'll probably test without the stalkers and deeds and add in Bob. I also think that putting in top would be good but I'm not 100% sold that they should be in a junk deck. Especially 1 with LD + Discard where you can just play one off the other never really allowing your opponent to recover.

[Rune]

There's an American Canadian Thresh player (forgot name) who has been running something similar to this:


// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [PT] Swamp (4)
1 [P2] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [5E] Portent
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [U] Sinkhole


It's a pretty hilarious deck to mess around with because of the hardcore mana denial, and because it takes a big dump on most of the format (including Zoo). If Aether Vial wasn't a card, I think Sinkhole could be part of some DTB strategy. As it is, the card is almost unplayable.

[wcm8]

The format's curve is lower, and with the prevalence of Aether Vial, it has even less value. Also, it will always be a 1-for-1, whereas Hymn to Tourach is a 2-for-1 (these two cards are typically competing for the same slot in decks that are considering their inclusion).

[Gheizen64]

Doesn't the fact the format is heavy on Vial make Sinkhole basically have 0 relevance? Against merfolk and goblin sinkhole isn't exactly stellar.

[Xenocide]

It's funny that you bring this up, I was brainstorming about this last week. My list is based heavily on tempo faeries.
There are 3 problems for sinkhole as I see it:
1) Aether Vial
2) Daze
3) Noble Hierarch/BoP
It's interesting to note that smallpox helps get around the daze/noble hierarch problem.


#Land
4 Wasteland
18 other lands

#Spells
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
6 Sinkhole / Smallpox
3 Vindicate

#Creatures
3 Tombstalker
4 Bitterblossom
4 Spellstutter sprite
2 Vendilion Clique

[Meekrab]

Based on a cursory examination of the DTB forum, the problem with Sinkhole is that if you're using black mana but aren't casting Tendrils of Agony, you're doing Legacy wrong.

[LostButSeeking]

Based on a cursory examination of the DTB forum, the problem with Sinkhole is that if you're using black mana but aren't casting Tendrils of Agony, you're doing Legacy wrong.

Perish is also a worthy use of black mana, as is putrid imp ;)

[sclabman]

The thing about Sinkhole is that you're using it in a deck with black, which could really benefit from Thoughtseize. But discard and land-destruction are conflicting strategies and are inefficient when combined into one deck.

I think Thoughtseize is better in most cases. Sinkhole does nothing against aggro decks like Zoo and tribal, and very little against control decks since they run so many lands. Thoughtseize can strip threats from the hand, which is very relevant against threat-light decks and helps stem the bleeding against aggro decks.

Would you rather take their Jace out of their hand or just delay him a couple turns? The likelihood of the opponent drawing more lands is much higher than them drawing another Jace.

[jamis]

The thing about Sinkhole is that you're using it in a deck with black, which could really benefit from Thoughtseize. But discard and land-destruction are conflicting strategies and are inefficient when combined into one deck.
Mana denial and discard are conflicting strategies, but when LD is used to build tempo, the two work very well. If you take your opponent's turn 1 play with thoughtseize on your first turn, then destroy their land on turn 2, they've spent two turns doing nothing, while you've been making land drops and advancing your board. It works even better with Dark Ritual, since you can get 3 turns ahead of them, but even being a turn ahead can be pretty huge.

[wcm8]

Also, the $30+ price tag for a mediocre -common- may deter a lot of players from testing it out. In an ideal Metagame, price isn't a factor of deck construction, but some of the most popular decks are also relatively inexpensive to build, or their money cards have more overall utility (eg: a playset of Forces makes more sense to a legacy beginner than a playset of a fringe expensive card.)

[Hanni]

Not true. When I used to play Eva Green, Sinkhole was pretty much the only way to win that match-up. In my experience, Zoo players generally keep fairly mana-light hands for hands with more business, so 3-4 land destruction can usually put them away (sometimes less, but it's best to try to mulligan for a hand with at least two LD effects). Not only that, but the loss in lands shrinks their Nacatls and Kird apes, which allows your creatures to out-class them. Traditional is hurt much more than big zoo since they don't have heirarch to make up for the loss of land.

edit: I guess Snuff out also helps make Sinkhole good since you don't have to worry about whether you need to use mana to destroy creatures or land.

If you're on the draw, and you spend BB on turn 2 to destroy a Taiga when the opponent already has Wild Nacatl, a Kird Ape, a Grim Lavamancer, and two lands in play, you're going to flat out lose. My experience with Zoo is that they put pressure on faster than you can Sinkhole and Vindicate their lands, and they drop the majority of their hand before you can sufficiently landscrew them. Hitting them with Wasteland is really strong, don't get me wrong, but you need to be dealing with their creatures before you start spending resources on LD, like spending BB for a Sinkhole on turn 2.


Yeah, I was going to say, that color screwing them was the only way I won when I used to play tempo Thresh vs. them.


Comparing Tempo Thresh with Deadguy Rock is like comparing apples to oranges. Stifle and Sinkhole are very different.


The format's curve is lower, and with the prevalence of Aether Vial, it has even less value. Also, it will always be a 1-for-1, whereas Hymn to Tourach is a 2-for-1 (these two cards are typically competing for the same slot in decks that are considering their inclusion).

There's so much wrong with this. Deck's that run Aether Vial don't have a lower curve, they actually have a higher curve. So between 4 Vindicate and 3 Pernicious Deed, once you answer that Vial (if they had one in the first place), LD becomes savage against them. Goblins runs very few 1cc and 2cc guys, with the entire bulk at 3cc, 4cc, and 5cc. If they are denied Vial, and you're blowing up their lands, they simply do nothing.

Even against decks with a lower curve, most of them are multi-colored and run extremely low land counts, relying on cantrips or whatnot to make sufficient land drops. When you start locking them out of certain colors, and potentially landscrewing them entirely, they fall apart.


Doesn't the fact the format is heavy on Vial make Sinkhole basically have 0 relevance? Against merfolk and goblin sinkhole isn't exactly stellar.

If you've ever played with either of these decks and either not had a Vial, or had Vial answered (whether it was FoW'd, Needle'd, whatever), then you know how mana hungry they can be... and land destruction is extremely strong against them when they don't have, or are denied, Vial.


There are 3 problems for sinkhole as I see it:
1) Aether Vial
2) Daze
3) Noble Hierarch/BoP


Daze I agree with. Daze is savage against Sinkhole and Vindicate (targetting a blue dual). Aether Vial and Hierarch/BoP I agree with too, but that's why I run 4 StP, 4 Vindicate, and 3 Deed (not counting 4 Thoughtseize, plus the other discard, gamestate pending).


The thing about Sinkhole is that you're using it in a deck with black, which could really benefit from Thoughtseize. But discard and land-destruction are conflicting strategies and are inefficient when combined into one deck.


Why? You pull the cards that they would be able to cast, while the LD keeps them off the ones they can't. This applies to both color screw, and overall land screw.


Would you rather take their Jace out of their hand or just delay him a couple turns? The likelihood of the opponent drawing more lands is much higher than them drawing another Jace.

Delaying a couple of turns translates into tempo, and that's what this style of play has been about ever since Pikula designed it (Deadguy Ale). You disrupt their early game, attacking the hand, manabase, and resolved permanents, and then you kill them before they can recover. Tempo Thresh plays a similar gameplan, except they run reactive blue spells instead of proactive black spells. These style decks are as much a tempo deck as Tempo Threshold.

Nowadays, with the savagely better cardpool, the deck (Deadguy) can run actual monstrosities like Goyf, KotR, and Tombstalker, to end games faster.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Aether Vial is one of the most relevant cards in Legacy right now and it totally trumps Sinkhole. Why now of all times would someone want to run Sinkhole?
Terrible against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins. So you would be playing Sinkhole against Control and Combo in a black deck then still have to be able to beat Aggro. Why would anyone not just play Discard which is good against Control and Combo while still being relevant vs. Aggro. Wasteland is one thing, Sinkhole is completely dead in several of the most important matchups.

[Hanni]

Aether Vial is one of the most relevant cards in Legacy right now and it totally trumps Sinkhole. Why now of all times would someone want to run Sinkhole?
Terrible against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins. So you would be playing Sinkhole against Control and Combo in a black deck then still have to be able to beat Aggro. Why would anyone not just play Discard which is good against Control and Combo while still being relevant vs. Aggro. Wasteland is one thing, Sinkhole is completely dead in several of the most important matchups.

The Deadguy Rock list I posted beats up on Vial decks like Merfolk. It's the Zoo matchup that gives the deck problems, and I agree that Sinkhole is awful against Zoo.

[sclabman]

Why? You pull the cards that they would be able to cast, while the LD keeps them off the ones they can't. This applies to both color screw, and overall land screw.

Because every newbie who ever tried to build a LD deck realized it sucks when the opponent casts their spells anyway and you've wasted your early game doing nothing.

[Hanni]

Because every newbie who ever tried to build a LD deck realized it sucks when the opponent casts their spells anyway and you've wasted your early game doing nothing.

I wonder how Pikula Top 8'd one of the first Legacy GP's with such a noobie deck design. The majority of the field was Goblins, too. Hmm...

[from Cairo]

There are 3 problems for sinkhole as I see it:
1) Aether Vial
2) Daze
3) Noble Hierarch/BoP


Totally agree. I'd honestly look to MD Pithing Needle (probably as no more than a 2-of) before Sinkhole in a tempo based strategy (Team America/Faeries). Dealing with Aether Vial complements tempo decks better, in other matches it hits Sensei's Diving Top, Planeswalkers, etc.

[Plague Sliver]

I'm sad that my playset is collecting dust...but as others have said, the format is too fast for it right now.

And when I'm playing it in a Team America build, I'd much rather get +1 card advantage with Hymn than blow up a land.

It is truly a sad day when 2 CC land destruction doesn't make the cut...

[troopatroop]

Note: the land destruction gameplan is still effective against Big Zoo. I was referring to traditional Fast Zoo above. Against Fast Zoo, I cut 4 Sinkhole's for 4 Death Mark's postboard.

Because Noble Hierarch is bads against Sinkhole.

Also, I love Sinkhole, but your opponent can just draw lands. It's really the only good LD card in legacy after Wasteland tho.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I wonder how Pikula Top 8'd one of the first Legacy GP's with such a noobie deck design. The majority of the field was Goblins, too. Hmm...

That was years ago. Goblins was the only aggro deck really worth playing and he brought in Plagues to handle Gobs better. Control right now is barely relevant which means Sinkhole is not playable. If the format shifted to where there was a control deck that was popular and good enough to beat 3 flavors of aggro and High Tide became the Combo of choice Sinkhole would be good again. As of right now though we are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Aggro deck with Vial and low curves are the business and most of the good combo decks can ace you off one land. Sinkhole couldn't possibly be less relevant than it is right now.

Edit- Also it's worth noting that Deadguy Ale never did anything noteworthy after it came in 2nd at the GP despite being very heavily played.

[Justin]

That was years ago. Goblins was the only aggro deck really worth playing and he brought in Plagues to handle Gobs better. Control right now is barely relevant which means Sinkhole is not playable. If the format shifted to where there was a control deck that was popular and good enough to beat 3 flavors of aggro and High Tide became the Combo of choice Sinkhole would be good again. As of right now though we are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Aggro deck with Vial and low curves are the business and most of the good combo decks can ace you off one land. Sinkhole couldn't possibly be less relevant than it is right now.

Edit- Also it's worth noting that Deadguy Ale never did anything noteworthy after it came in 2nd at the GP despite being very heavily played.

Except that TWO Deadguy Ale decks (Brian Kowal and Paul Rietzl) made top eight in at GP Chicago in 2009 in a field of over 1,200 players. Rietzl even ran a set of Sinkhole. I'd call that noteworthy. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/top8decks

[from Cairo]

Except that TWO Deadguy Ale decks (Brian Kowal and Paul Rietzl) made top eight in at GP Chicago in 2009 in a field of over 1,200 players. Rietzl even ran a set of Sinkhole. I'd call that noteworthy. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/top8decks

These results are still almost 2 years ago. A lot has changed.

GP Chicago 2009 was pre-Alara Reborn. Agro based strategies weren't what they currently are. This was for the most part pre-(modern)Zoo (QPM & Steppe Lynx weren't out, Noble Hierarch & KotR hadn't caught on), Merfolk was still lacking it's 5th playable guy (Coralhelm Commander), etc. Control was a very well positioned archetype at the time, as seen with CBT placing 1st and 2nd.

It's not that the deck, Deadguy Ale, or the card, Sinkhole, are awful. But Sinkhole right now is just poorly positioned in the meta.

[Uncoordinated]

Look up some Trisomy 21 lists if you're interested in playing Sinkhole. Rolls over and dies to combo like most dedicated land/board disruption decks do, but it's great fun to play. It neutralizes the use of mana dorks with Smallpox, a really undervalued card in the game and a personal favourite of mine. It speeds up it's fundamental turn with Mox Diamond to ensure mana disruption arrives on time. It also runs 3 - 4 Vindicates, from what I've seen. It's one of the best places to play Sinkhole.

More generally, I really do think Stifle fits the Sinkhole slot better in almost every deck playing blue. Which is quite a few. And not every deck playing blue has room for a spell like Stifle. As most have said here, it's not really worth it. Hymn competes very fiercely for Sinkhole's slot in primarily black decks, so where is it to go?

[Nessaja]

Except that TWO Deadguy Ale decks (Brian Kowal and Paul Rietzl) made top eight in at GP Chicago in 2009 in a field of over 1,200 players. Rietzl even ran a set of Sinkhole. I'd call that noteworthy. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/top8decks
That's eva green.. ? Still sinkholes, but different deck.

[Justin]

That's eva green.. ? Still sinkholes, but different deck.

Sometimes the lines blur between those two decks, but Kowal's version is definately Deadguy Ale with a green splash for Goyf. Eva Green doesn't run white spells like Tidehollow Sculler, Swords, Vindicate, etc. One could make the case that Rietzl's deck is closer to Eva Green, but as you note, it still runs a set of Sinkhole, which is what this thread is about. So at the very least you can say that a Deadguy Ale deck and a deck with Sinkhole has succeeded in a major tournament, years after Pikula first did it.

[nedleeds]

if you areplaying sinkhole you need to be playing 3-4 ratchet bombs. also i think you have to choose between sinkhole and hymn. when playing sinkhole without dark ritual you certainly need a turn one discard spell (thoughtseize, duress, kozilek).

[dontbiteitholmes]

I wasn't playing during GP 09', I just remember the year after the GP it came in 2nd in so many people played Deadguy and I never remember it making top 8.