[DECK] WR Hate

[Octopusman]

WR Hate is mainly a metagame deck for where you expect there to be a large amount of agro decks like Goblins or Merfolk. It also tries to have good game against archetypes that are popular in many metas. As general as that sounds, the main goal is to drop proactive threats or removal and answer the opponent's plays with reactive removal long enough to secure board position to either win by turning creatures sideways and/or to attack the opponent's ability to search and strangle their mana. WR Hate is the unholy offspring of Fish (not the Merfolk Fish), Stax, and Zoo imo.


V.5

Been meaning to do a real update for a while now.

Maindeck:
Lands: 21
Plateau 4
Sacred Foundry 4
Karakas 1
Battlefield Forge 2
Mountain 1
Plains 1
Wasteland 4
Ghost Quarter 4

Spells: 39
Elspeth Knight-Errant 2
Grim Lavamancer 4
Leonin Arbiter 4
Figure of Destiny 3
Leonin Relic-Warder 4
Mother of Runes 4
Phyrexian Revoker 4

Aether Vial 4
Umezawa's Jitte 3

Swords to Plowshares 3
Path to Exile 4

Sideboard
Leyline of Sanctity 4
Tariff 4
Circle of Protection: Blue 4
Jötun Grunt 3

I don't mind expanding on card choices if you are curious about them. I kind of expect that from the list you can see how it operates (aka it's dirty).

With magus of the moon not being much better than gray ogre against tribal, I swapped him out for Figure of Destiny. I feel that Figure is much better against tribal than magus of the moon. He's great with vial and is another 1 drop super hero in this deck. I could go on about Figure. But to sum it up, I like to attack strategies and although this card is mostly a vanilla beater, sometimes that's the best strategy to go for if the decks need it. This deck needed him and I'm hoping that I don't want to bump it to 4 because the deck is crazy tight on slots right now.

I resisted running Elspeth 1.0 for so long but I was a fool for doing so. She really wraps things up in a hurry. The times I've been unable to cast her due to mana/colorscrew have been few enough that I feel I have a solid grasp of my manabase. There's a risk for running so few basics without fetches but have offset this with vial to some degree. The deck seems to do well manawise which is a huge relief.

http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_55.png

Leonin Relic-Warder is insane. He is the real deal. Pick up your foil Japanese now. I tried to be all cute and plan out what cards he'd be useful against and I didn't even come close to remembering them all. Like Vial - > Removing an attacking Factory. Exile on Wyrmcoil Engine. Propaganda/Ghostly Prison. etc.
Let's face it though, he's here for opposing vials, counterbalances, SoFI, and on and on.

Mother of Runes was another card that filled a huge role. The deck needed protection early and to punch through mid-late. It got it.

http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_66.png

Phyrexian Revoker. Wow. This is a hate deck and even though it may be perceived as narrow, I assure you that it will change your mind when you see it in action. I can't rant about this card enough.

http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_33.png

Aether Vial. I resisted it for so long but as I moved towards more creatures, I wanted to try it and, of course, it was an amazing addition to the deck. With the tricky creatures in the deck, it can really throw a haymaker if the opponent isn't on their game or if they don't know what to expect. I'm talking about vials with revoker (um yes, if they don't use their top in response to the vial activation it's too late), relic-warder, and the filthiest is arbiter in response to a fetchland activation.

http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_22.png


http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_44.png

I used to love running Mind Censor as well. Unless other cards in the deck are replaced by much stronger cards, there is no room for mind censor at this time. Although it flies and carries jitte like a champ, for three mana, it can't give the deck what it needs for what it does. For 2 we have arbiter which is much stronger when used in combination with vial, the decks design which features no search anyway, and the land destruction land drops. 4 search disablers seems to be the right number right now and still seems to be performing quite well. I debated removing arbiter many times but it still justifies it's place time after time. It is one of the main disruptive features that the deck was designed around and gives the variety this decks sought after to hate on the opponents game from many different angles.

Everything else seems right for the time being.

----Old Content----

I changed the sideboard thinking I wouldn't run into a lot of graveyard strategies. I haven't really. I just kept the one wheel of sun and moon.
The 4 Tariffs have been pretty useful but I'm not sold on this. These slots are reserved for anti Progenitus/Emrakul/Iona/etc. I am seriously debating circle of protection blue to help w/ progenitus and merfolk...
I have done some damage with volcanic fallout but I'm still not sure about it seeing as how it has total anti-synergy with my deck. Looking to cut these (COP:B?)
The vexing shushers are to help against permission and counterbalance. Is there nothing better?

I'm fairly happy with the sideboard and I feel that it is almost there. I'm looking forward to settling on a more stable maindeck. Things are looking optimistic now. From there, I can have more fun with the sideboard really shoring up matchups that aren't favorable.
Pyrokinesis is too much card disadvantage for this deck.
The leylines have to stay because they're overpowered.
At this moment I'm thinking something like.
4 Leyline
4 COP:Blue
4 Tariff
3 Jotun Grunt

Loving where this deck is going. Can't wait to bring another update when possible.

Cheers,



----Legacy thread below----
Here is the list that I ran (not optimized).

Maindeck:
Plateau 4
Sacred Foundry 4
Battlefield forge 2
Karakas 1
Mountain 2
Plains 2
Wasteland 4
Ghost Quarter 4

Ajani Vengeant 2
Grim Lavamancer 4
Leonin Arbiter 4
Duergar Hedge-Mage 3
Figure of Destiny 4
Aven Mindcensor 2

Ratchet Bomb 2
Crucible of Worlds 1
Umezawa's Jitte 2

Swords to Plowshares 3
Path to Exile 2
Lightning Bolt 4
Volcanic Fallout 4

Sideboard
Leyline of Sanctity 4
Stingscourger 2
Tormod's Crypt 3
Pithing Needle 3
Wheel of Sun and Moon 1
Vexing Shusher 2

Maindeck:
Manabase:
It's true that there are no fetches and that there are 23 land and 8 waste effects. This manabase is somewhat similar to Fatal's GW Death and Taxes build found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-%5BDeck%5D-Death-and-Taxes/page77
While there are extreme differences in these decks, we share the constraint of having to design the manabase around the Leonin Arbiter. This deck also does not run Aether Vial. Getting the necessary colors and having to topdeck into land hasn't been a serious problem. 23 lands is quite a bit. However, although colorless can be had from the Wasteland and Ghost Quarters, the deck really plays these as land destruction spells that help out with casting spells. The deck needs enough land to function after having sacced one, two, or more lands for waste effects.

The lands chosen are pretty obvious. The Karakas is included as a one of to combat Emrakul, Iona, etc.

Ajani Vengeant:
There for when we reach four mana. It plays along with the decks mana choking as it can be used to keep opponent's lands tapped or anything else nasty that shouldn't untap like vials or worse. Ajani is fantastic and absolutely castable with this manabase. The Lightning Helix ability helps recoup life lost to Battlefield Forge/Sacred Foundry and never hurts. It's ability to remove multiple threats gives the deck a form of card advantage and it needs to get card advantage wherever possible. A resolved ultimate ability is quite strong. Ajani is a must answer and is almost always a great card to see.

Grim Lavamancer:
His power is undeniable. Great for playing as agro or control. Another fantastic tool to generate card advantage by removing potentially more than one creature and is an MVP against many creatures/agro decks. Sometimes it's cute when goyf shrinks because of him. It can give the deck some reach and can burn the opponent's face for the win.

Leonin Arbiter:
It's unproven, but there could be a lot of potential in this card. Stopping the ability to search is a relatively new way to attack your opponent's deck. Although survival is gone, this is still a useful, unexpected, and fun control element. Most decks run as many good cards as they can get away with while still being “safe”. By safe, I mean that they still include basics to fetch to avoid scooping to moon or waste effects, for example. Since Leonin Arbiter still has rogue status, deck lists haven't taken him (and his little cousin the Aven Mindcensor) into consideration. The deck wants to affect the opponent's mana and it can do this by enticing them to pay to negate the ability (which doesn't happen as often as one might suspect) or by turning undropped fetches into dead draws. Leonin Arbiter is best friends with Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. If unmolested, Leonin Arbiter enables the “four Strip Mine” scenario with Ghost Quarter's drawback failing. It attacks!

Duergar Hedge-Mage:
He's here for maindeck artifact and enchantment removal. Extremely useful for blowing up everything obvious and random permanents that will be a major hassle if not removed. The ability to remove a permanent and still be left with a body is nothing to sneeze at. The double Plains/double Maintain play removing an enchantment and an artifact is huge. Even without fetches, the manabase has taken this card into account. Playsets of Plateaus and Sacred Foundrys, along with 4 basics, turn this card on relatively easily. It attacks!

Figure of Destiny:
Costs one. Great. The 6 mana activated ability isn't a pipe dream. Great. Usually needs to be answered before it's a very useful 4/4 and can surprise the opponent by swinging hard into the red zone. Hard to assure players with no exposure to it that Figure of Destiny is no joke. Gives the deck the threat density it needs to actually fulfill its gameplan of attacking for the win and works well with the deck's curve/colors.

Aven Mindcensor:
Augments Leonin Arbiter and the hate on search. When well timed at instant speed, it can hammer the unexpected opponent who puts a search effect on the stack. Small, but it flies. 6 search debuffs has been sufficient thus far but other lists might want to play with this number.

Ratchet Bomb:
Clears the board of token swarms and all kinds of nasty permanents that are otherwise difficult to remove with targeted spot removal. Humiliates 0 to cast artifacts as well. A sweeper is scary to use when fearful of it being a liability. Used intelligently, it can get 2+ for 1 and usually has a purpose other than an outcome that results in the pilot blowing his/her own board up (the deck tries to diversity the CMC of it's permanents). Sincerely fast enough to answer scary one or two drops. Best when cast preemptively to start with the charge counter generation. Potentially the best sweeper available within WR. The deck focuses on removal diversity so that it can handle what is thrown at it long enough to stabilize in the mid-game and win.

Crucible of Worlds:
Costs three and the deck can't really afford to see more than one. Ends the game quickly when used alongside Leonin Arbiter and Ghost Quarter. Recurs land destruction or lost lands.

Umezawa's Jitte:
Combos with creatures.

Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile (plays nice with Leonin Arbiter):
Best spot removal?

Lightning Bolt:
Spot removal/reach. The deck has a slow clock and the burn to the dome does come in handy.

Volcanic Fallout:
Included because the deck was designed to combat the state of the format. It makes tribal cry. More about this card in the mini-tourney report after card choices are discussed.

Sideboard:
Leyline of Santity:
The last bastion of hope against targeting win conditions. The cross your fingers and pray answer to belcher/tendrils/brainfreeze/burn/grindstone.

Stingsourger:
Bounces Emrakul/Iona or other scary creatures.

Tormod's Crypt:
Fast graveyard removal. Delightful against graveyard strategies.

Pithing Needle:
Would love to have this in the main to stave off the astronomically high number of decks packing Aether Vial. Stops all kinds of things. Most useful when used to shut off a win condition or sweeper like Engineered Explosives that will net your opponent card advantage and devastate you board. Amazingly flexible and an all-around fantastic utility.

Wheel of Sun and Moon:
Makes graveyard strategies cry.

Vexing Shusher:
A tool/beater to help resolve spells through counterbalance, counter magic, or chalices. The deck would prefer to shut off vials instead of utilize them (lack of slots/creatures). But with the prominence of counterbalance, perhaps 2 aren't enough. More optimization in this area is definitely being examined.


Failed test list

v1.1 - in testing
Maindeck:
Plateau 4
Sacred Foundry 2
Mountain 2
Plains 5
Ghost Quarter 4

Leonin Relic-Warder 2
Phyrexian Revoker 4
Leonin Arbiter 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4
Aven Mindcensor 4
Mother of Runes 4
Magus of the Moon 3

Chrome Mox 4
Ratchet Bomb 2
Crucible of Worlds 1
Umezawa's Jitte 2

Swords to Plowshares 1
Path to Exile 4
Lightning Bolt 4


Sideboard
Leyline of Sanctity 4
Ethersworn Canonist 3
Tormod's Crypt 3
Pithing Needle 2
Wheel of Sun and Moon 1
Vexing Shusher 2

Maindeck:

Phyrexian Revoker:
The hot-off-the-press underestimated thorn in your side for 2011 and beyond. I will probably post a pic of a Jitte equipped revoker to make you drool. I had a seizure when this card was spoiled and I can't wait to name Noble Hierarch, LED, and all other non-land devastating spells like Grindstone, Putrid Imp, Engineered Explosives, Deed, SoFI, etc.
Expecting big things from this card and believe that it has found a home in what is hopefully a great deck for it.

Leonin Relic-Warder:
A fantastic artifact/enchantment answer on a body which is exactly what this deck wanted. Usefulness to be exposed in testing, but expecting good results. Costs 1 less than Hedge-Mage and hoping that WW is easier to access than the Hedge-Mages land type requirements.

Mother of Runes:
Stalls, pushes attackers through, anti-removal, all-around superstar big-wig 1 drop.

Chrome Mox:
Acceleration for first turn Arbiter/Revoker, 2nd turn Aven Mindcensor/Magus of the Moon.

Simian Spirit Guide:
Acceleration for first turn Arbiter/Revoker, 2nd turn Aven Mindcensor/Magus of the Moon, Daze assistance, extra mana when in a bind.

Sideboard:
Ethersworn Canonist:
Brought in versus combo.


Mini-Tourney Report:
Today was the SCG Legacy Open in San Jose. 1-16-11
I went 3-4-1 and although that's much less than spectacular, it made me believe in the potential here. The strategy is alive.

Into:
I was very happy to see that there were many Goblin and Merfolk players and an, overall, healthy and diverse array of decks. I thought, for sure, that the decision to include 4 Volcanic Fallout would pay off. The bad news is that I wasn't paired with one Goblin or Merfolk deck all day. The good news is that in spite of running red sweepers that are considered dead in many situations, I was very impressed with how the deck played despite my modest play-testing and experience with this deck. I couldn't decide what to name the deck or if it truly belonged to a preexisting archetype. Since I enjoy playing metagame decks and the deck packs many answers, WR Hate seems to fit. I realized this as I heard a prior opponent describe it to a friend as “The Hate Deck”. Since I had very limited experience with Volcanic Fallout (was boarded continually), I can't honestly give feedback on its usefulness or its effect on my own creatures. I do know that it wrecks tribal/swarms, and as this deck is adjusted to put the squeeze on strategies, different hate can be swapped into this spot.

While things didn't necessarily turn out ideally, it was very fun and gives me enough faith in this deck to finally start this thread.
Sorry in advance for things I can't remember.

Round 1 vs Spanish Inquisition: Lose 1-2
G1: He Belchers for lethal on his second turn for the win.
G2: I mulligan to 5 and start the game with Leyline of Sanctity in play, steal the win.
G3: I mulligan to 4 and start the game with Leyline of Sanctity in play. He goes off and has Nature's Claim for the Leyline.

Round 2 vs UW Counter Top: Draw 1-1-1 (Time)
G1: Some bs, forgot what happened
G2: Some bs, forgot what happened
G3: We go to turns and eventually the game draws when his turn ends. I would have untapped and attacked for lethal on my next turn.
I was annoyed by this fellow's slow play and I apologize for acting grumpy. I wasn't on my A game and I didn't catch him miss a draw step and I didn't catch him when he searched his whole library while Aven Mindcensor was active. Both of which I received a warning for.
Never saw Shusher.


Round 3 vs Lands: Lose 1-2
Fantastic guy named Matt from NV. Clearly a competent player with a powerful deck. Lands tends to have its way with Agro but I don't feel horrible about this match up and believe that it can be made more even/favorable (can this WR Hate's shell or manabase be modified to support moon effects?).
G1: Forgot what happened – got owned.
G2: I drew an insane amount of hate.
G3: I needed to destroy an Ensnaring Bridge and two Maze of Ith AND to exile his graveyard to even have a chance at turning the game around and it never happened.

Round 4 vs GWRU Counter Top: Lose 0-2
Extremely well played by my opponent. I had nothing for these games. Never saw Shusher, had no answer to Goyfs, and couldn't resolve anything.
G1: Beat up with Goyfs?
G2: Beat up with Goyfs.

Round 5 vs GW(r?) Zooish: Win 2-1
Ran Knight of the Reliquary, Serra Avenger, Vial, Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, Swords, etc
G1: Forgot what happened – beat him up.
G2: Forgot what happened
G3: Locked him up with mana denial/Leonin Arbiter

Round 6 vs GRb Sligh?: Win 2-0
Very cool deck that generated a lot of momentum with cycle lands and life from the loam. It ran many lands which fed countryside crusher. Ran mox diamonds, Dark Confidant, Bolts and Engineered Explosives.
G1: Just so happened that I was able to answer everything.
G2: Pretty I abused his Manabase. Don't quite remember.

Round 7 vs GWr Enchantress: Win 2-0
Pretty sure he had Words of War, Sigil of the Empty Throne, Emrakul, Solitary Confinement.
Got a decent amount of card advantage by destroying enchanted lands and killing two Argothian Enchantresses with Ratchet Bomb.
G1: Beat up up.
G2: Abused his mana and beat him up.

Round 8 vs Show and Tell/Mosswort Bridge Emrakul Stiflenaught: Lose 1-2
Super nice guy. Was able to dig deep with Lim Dul's Vault.
G1: He resolves a Show and Tell Emrakul. I rip a Karakas off my top deck and steal the game.
G2: Forgot what happened but I'm pretty sure that I lost to Show and Tell Emrakul?
G3: Thoughtsieze steals the Stingscourger but it doesn't matter because this time he casts Emrakul off Mosswort Bridge once it's enabled by his Phyrexian Dreadnaught.

All-in-all, super wonderful and fun day. Right now, the deck is flabby although it's difficult to make it tighter considering I omit searching to be unaffected by my own effects and the lack of increasing card quality, draw, and to put it plainly, the limited number of different cards this deck see throughout the course of the game (Are Sword of Fire and Ice or Scroll Rack conceivable?). It's hard to survive without counters/chalice against combo, even with Leyline. If there was a way to get a first turn Ethersworn Canonist, I'd be all over it. Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit guide were considered for a mini-stompy type of feel. I may test this route as well although slots seem hard to come by. IMO, I would probably focus on keeping this a metagame deck against the type of decks that are the most prominent in your meta and then board out out the dead cards for crippling hate when facing other matchups (i.e. Volcanic Fallout main for tribal – board into leylines/Ethersworn Canonist or vice versa). I will be exploring more anti-control cards as well since Hedge-Mage usually makes the opponent flip a Firespout.
Super fun. I will be tuning and playing this deck for some time.

Any and all discussion is appreciated. I will do my best to keep this thread current.

http://www.mouthrunning.com/pics/RWHate_11.png

[jazzykat]

A few points:

1. If I am not mistaken all of your creatures die to volcanic fallout. I know you are worried about swarms but I would consider another method to HATE on my opponent. Maybe needles for their vials so your LD strategy is effective. Maybe vials of your own so you can hate on Countertop by vialing in your dudes as uncounterable....?

2. If you are playing so many anti-search cards, I think you seriously have to look at playing all 4 PtE regardless of your mana screw theme because your first theme seems to me to be search screw...

3. Lastly, if you are a 2 color hate deck (with 1 color as red) you HAVE to consider playing moon effects. Between making it hard for your opponent to search for land, and turning all their nonbasics into mountains you will probably at least color screw them into the next century.

Just a suggestion of what I might test when I have time next:

-4 Volcanic Fallout
-3 StP
-2 Anjani Venjeant
-3 Sacred Foundry
-2 Battlefield Forge
-1 Karakas (no way to fetch it out)
-1 FoD

+4 Aether Vial
+2 Aven Mindcensor
+2 PtE
+4 Serra Avenger (Easily dropped with vial and ends the game with a jitte)
+ 4 RW Fetch (to fuel Mancer and play with crucible) Mindcensor only hurts the opponent and you are still playing a lot of land...

You have some great citp/state based effects on your creatures. Vial lets you use them as spells and screw your opponent over.

Lastly I would consider Mother of Runes over figure of destiny because Pro Merfolk (U) or Pro Goblins (R) is pretty damn tech too.

I didn't mean to steal your thunder I just think you have a great idea and I actually tested on MWS vs. something like this and it made a mess of my mana base once an arbiter was out.

[MGC_player]

I've actually been working on something with a similar feel as this (W/R Suppression Field Aggro). While some strategies don't overlap since Suppression Field tends to screw activated abilities as well, I can recommend the Chrome Mox and Simian Spirit Guides. For the deck I was using, first turn Suppression Field or Leonin Arbiter was absolutely incredible. I also second the moon effects. I'll definitely consider Duergar Hedge-mage now in my build.

Edit: The list I am actually using at the moment (still in development)
W/R Suppression Aggro
Land: 15
4 Sacred Foundry
5 Plains
4 Plateau
2 Mountain

Artifacts: 4
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures: 22
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Kazandu Blademaster
2 Aven Mindcensor

Removal: 15
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Magma Jet or Fireblast

Stuff: 4
4 Suppression Field

Sideboard: 15
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Pithing Needle
2 Duergar Hedge-Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gravehate of choice
3 Leyline of Sanctity

It's a bit different since the list is constrained by both Arbiter and Suppression Field, but it works pretty well. Hating both search and activated abilities (which seem to be everywhere) is somewhat unexpected, especially if its main. It's still in development so I'm still switching cards in and out. The current one is the Magma Jet/Fireblast slot, which may be switched out to Wastelands or Ghost Quarters. That particular slot is iffy since I like the selection Magma Jet gives me or the reach provided by Fireblast, but extra LD is also pretty useful. Goblin Guide is also one of my iffy slots. I like the damage, but I want to keep my opponent manascrewed for as long as possible.

[Octopusman]

Thuder definitely not stolen.

Thank you both very much for starting off the thread with very constructive posts.
I'm going to change the deck based on this feedback and I hope to post findings sooner than later.
I think I want to run pithing need over vial and I want to stay away from fetches no matter what.
If no Karakas, what's my answer to emrakul? More Stingscourger/Karakas in the board? I hadn't felt that it being a non-basic has hurt me yet so I am not sold that it should be removed from the main but time will tell.

I am a moon effect whore - as I also play Dragon Stompy. I do question whether I can reliably get the colors I need (R or W) without fetches and less duals. Less Plateau/Sacred Founry means that Hedge-Mage is going to hit enchantments less often with moon effects and the deck really is scared of counterbalance and like I said - I don't think I want to run vial.

We'll see.

Thanks so much! I may go the mini-stompy (no city of traitors/ancient tomb) route. I did like ajani but I will consider removing it based on feedback thus far although a turn 3 Ajani could be game wrecking with chrome mox.

More to come.

[Octopusman]

This is the list that I will be posting testing results soon(tm).
This is mostly based on the feedback that I think works best with this kind of deck.
Fit in the Simian Spirit Guide/Chrome Mox package.
upped pte to 4, upped Mindcensors, added even more hate with Phyrexian Revoker and Magus of the Moon (cut wastelands in response). Removal suite is still strong plus now we have mom for early protection/punching damage through.

Basically replaced Hedge-Mage with Relic-Warder (remains to be seen if Hedge-Mage is still strictly better against the counterbalance matchup). I think that Phyrexian Revoker will shine in this kind of deck. Removal package remains roughly the same except -4 volcanic fallout, but I never got a chance to use it vs merfolk/goblins.


Cut a needle in the board since we have Revoker now and went with 3 ethersworn canonist for the first turn drop or first turn revoker (naming LED) to help leyline of sanctity since I don't think the leylines are enough by themselves.

I'm still worried about decks that use Emrakul as a win condition...

Failed test list

v1.1 - in testing
Maindeck:
Plateau 4
Sacred Foundry 2
Mountain 2
Plains 5
Ghost Quarter 4

Leonin Relic-Warder 2
Phyrexian Revoker 4
Leonin Arbiter 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4
Aven Mindcensor 4
Mother of Runes 4
Magus of the Moon 3

Chrome Mox 4
Ratchet Bomb 2
Crucible of Worlds 1
Umezawa's Jitte 2

Swords to Plowshares 1
Path to Exile 4
Lightning Bolt 4


Sideboard
Leyline of Sanctity 4
Ethersworn Canonist 3
Tormod's Crypt 3
Pithing Needle 2
Wheel of Sun and Moon 1
Vexing Shusher 2

[Qweerios]

Wow, what a cool deck!

What do you think of Grim Lavamancer over some Ratchet Bombs and a StP? Is Lightning Helix too weak for the list? Looks like it would help with some of the Forges' damage.

[Octopusman]

Wow, what a cool deck!

What do you think of Grim Lavamancer over some Ratchet Bombs and a StP? Is Lightning Helix too weak for the list? Looks like it would help with some of the Forges' damage.

Thanks, it's really in its infancy although there are quite a few differences between the original list, the main idea is the same and I feel there's potential to this strategy.

I took out the forges in v1.1 in post 5 but the grim lavamancers were in the original list. I removed it from v1.1 but Grim Lavamancer is definitely huge. I can't say for sure but Grim Lavamancer is a card that may bounce in and our of this deck depending on how it shapes and evolves.
It's meant to do well against an agro meta with having good game against other strategies but right now it pretty much folds to Emrakul but part of what was good about the anti-creature strategies was the Lavamancers. Mom came in to help stall more by helping in combat and ideally keeping my permanents on the board since this has to be considered always as it's pretty much a topdeck deck. With that said, the clock is slower in v1.1 because of the removal of the Lavamancers and Figure of Destiny.

I'd like to fit Lavamancers back in, so we'll see what happens. If it's clock it too slow and it's game against agro hasn't improved, I'll have to think about this a lot.

I'm tempted to find more slots for equipment since it's a long fight without them and with no draw/filter/search it's not a sure thing to see 1 of 2 Jitte.

I did consider lightning helix, but chose not to run it. It still doesn't do more damage than lightning bolt and imo it might not be worth the mana cost to gain three life. There's a lot of removal so I'm really relying on that to keep my life from going down, or using mom, or maybe life gain from Jitte. I might even run chain lightning (did in a build before making this post) again over lightning helix. I may test it, but I don't feel a need for it at this time.

Considering I'm only running 5 plains at the moment and three moon effects, I'm waiting to see how Relic-Warder performs before I consider other creature/removal there. My main concern is counterbalance although at this time, I can't seem to think of a better strategy besides running vial (which I don't want to do) than boarding in a couple of shushers. If that's the case, it's probably still better to use Relic-Warder. Relic-Warder is likely better in the accelerated version of the deck while the Hedge-Mage would be better for the non-accelerated version.

Can't wait to have actual Revokers soon!

[kicks_422]

Wouldn't Koth of the Hammer be great in this deck?

[Octopusman]

What do you think of Grim Lavamancer over some Ratchet Bombs and a StP? Is Lightning Helix too weak for the list? Looks like it would help with some of the Forges' damage.

I think I may have understood you. I thought that you were talking about the first iteration but I see that I could still do -2 ratchet bomb, -1 STP and go +3 Grim Lavamancer. I will test this although I may even do a -1 Aven Mindcensor so I can go +4 Grim Lavamancer. I'm sad to say that I really want more removal than I want Lavamancer and although he is removal, I feel like I need to bombs to answer non-creature problems although Relic-Warder is supposed to help with that. If I could, I'd like to get all 4 Relic-Warders in if I remove the Ratchet bomb but slots are becoming extremely scarce. I know the moment I take the bombs out I will get swarmed by empty the warrens tokens, zombies, or worms. I do think that overall, I'd like Grim Lavamancer better. I'm a little worried that my targeted removal slots keep shrinking.

Will have to do a lot of testing.
I've always wondered what this deck would look like as UW but after so much thinking and seeing how things are shaping up with the deck, it feels right that it remains WR. With the Magus of the Moon shutting off my Crucible antics with Ghost Quarter, Crucible may be an open slot soon.

Fun!

[Octopusman]

Wouldn't Koth of the Hammer be great in this deck?

He might be. I'm not sure how good the second ability is. Basically for 4 mana, I get to attack with a 4/4 which may be great and it definitely gives this deck more oomph. I get to do the same thing on the next turn so that the following turn I can start having fun with the ultimate which plays nice with a moon effect.

I absolutely loved Ajani but am going to test without him.

At least with feedback there is a lot to test which is a good thing. If I realize that the deck can't be aggressive enough or has a hard time finishing an opponent off, I will probably look at Koth. Good suggestion. It's possible that his assistance in combat and ultimate could be what turns out to be a hole in the deck. This could put some insane pressure on an opponent if played very early off the backs of chrome mox and simian spirit guide... for sure. [Edit] But at its heart this is somewhat of a control deck and should stick to its core strategy. Although every deck needs a win condition!

[Qweerios]

Can you use Jitte through Suppression Field? If yes, I think that combining Phyrexian Revoker, Leonin Arbiter, Supression Field, and Magus of the Moon would make a solid new age boros deck. Also, how does Aven Mindcensor performs? How does Serra Avatar sound like a beater? She is still very good even if you can't vial her in 1 turn earlier.

[perm]

Phyrexian Revoker is sort of a living pithing needle if you don't want to cut beating power.

[hyc8028]

Can you use Jitte through Suppression Field? If yes, I think that combining Phyrexian Revoker, Leonin Arbiter, Supression Field, and Magus of the Moon would make a solid new age boros deck. Also, how does Aven Mindcensor performs? How does Serra Avatar sound like a beater? She is still very good even if you can't vial her in 1 turn earlier.

No, you can't. Jitte has bunch of abilities.

Speaking of Jitte, would you consider one more main?

[Octopusman]

Can you use Jitte through Suppression Field? If yes, I think that combining Phyrexian Revoker, Leonin Arbiter, Supression Field, and Magus of the Moon would make a solid new age boros deck. Also, how does Aven Mindcensor performs? How does Serra Avatar sound like a beater? She is still very good even if you can't vial her in 1 turn earlier.

Jitte becomes mostly awful under Suppression Field. I love Suppression Field. I do. If suppression field was 2/2, I might run it. I feel that all of the other disruption in the deck is superior and I don't know what to cut without making it more threat-light and I want to keep the creature count high (seriously considering the -2 ratchet bomb, -1 STP for +3 Grim Lavamancer) while having some of the best removal and mess them up with Arbiter, Mindcensor, Revoker, and maybe Magus of the Moon (seem to always play against tribal when I play moon effects).

I originally had the Mindcensor at 2 and I was ALWAYS super happy to see it. I had a hard time making room for all 4 but I'm especially happy to be able to play all 4. The EOT Mindscensor or well timed flashed Mindcensor with a search on the stack can be backbreaking. Flying and Jitte - can't go wrong. My love for this card increases.

I have also considered Serra Avatar. She's definitely not bad, even without vial, in a deck that stabilizes in the mid-late game. Trust me, I'm not trying to stick to the theme of the deck to its own detriment, but it's "just" a beater. If it has issues with the kill condition I will obviously look for ways to boost it and this card may be considered. Without Vial, at turn 4 or 5 it might prefer to drop an Ajani or play a card that'll help me sooner instead of being an effective -1 from the start until turn 4 and the deck doesn't need more reasons to mulligan.

I will test v1.1 this week for sure.

[edit] Three Jitte is tempting. The deck is always super excited to see it. I ran two because I don't want to see more than 1. I think that making it more likely to be drawn is a good thing. It's really a matter of figuring out what hurts more. The games where I see 2 in my hand (or 3 heaven forbid) vs how painful it is to have games where I don't see Jitte where I would have if there were 3 in the deck.
With 3 Jitte - you have a 35% chance to see it in your first 8 and with 2 Jitte you have 25% chance to see it in your first 8. The odds you'll topdeck a Jitte is also better ever turn if you have three vs having two obviously.
I think that you may be correct. Honestly, when I have more than 1 Jitte, the first one is either countered, destroyed, or I will. If it gets removed, I usually just drop the 2nd one and win.
I will find a slot for another Jitte. The deck loves it!

http://www.implair.com/deckulator/deckulator.html

[hyc8028]

What about Elspeth? She pumps your dude and she is win con. Possibly better than Koth since she can protect herself?

[Octopusman]

What about Elspeth? She pumps your dude and she is win con. Possibly better than Koth since she can protect herself?

I actually have thought about Elspeth. I got distracted when I was thinking about it though because I remember thinking about Elspeth 2.0 before I finished thinking about Elspeth 1.0 and then I forgot about it.

I think she would have to be a 2 of max although I don't deny her power. If I discover the deck has A) the need for faster kills/evasion, B) a need for 1/1s to keep myself/herself alive, and C) the mana to pull it off - I will look into it. I'm trying to only include cards that the deck "needs" right now and I have specific roles for just about everything. I'm not sure she is needed at this time and I can't be sure that she's strictly better than the alternate strategies I'm running.

I do think she's really underappreciated these days. As I test, when I hit 4 mana, I'm going to think "How would Espeth change the game state right now". If I find that I would have loved her almost all of those times - I will test her.

Now, I wish I didn't love the new artwork more than the original :-O

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll let you know how 3 Jitte works out (I can already tell you it's going to be amazing).

best wishes,

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

If you don't go for the lavamancer, I would consider Jotun grunt. They are nice counters to goyf and beat quite well.

[Octopusman]

If you don't go for the lavamancer, I would consider Jotun grunt. They are nice counters to goyf and beat quite well.

I have already tested Jotun Grunt and agree that it's good but have since cut it.

I should probably update the primer to include cards that were considered but not included but discussion is what forums are for.
I absolutely love Jotun Grunt. It's possible that it may see play in this deck in the future. After all, he is a bit a graveyard hoser.

[Atwa]

If you are affraid of Emrakul (and to a lesser extend cards like Leviathan and Progenitus), you should try out Tariff and Peacekeeper. Peacekeeper is proactive and can be removed (although giving it protection and ping your opponent to death with Lavamancer seems like a plan), but it's also decent against tribal.

Tariff is an old time favored for me, and although it doesn't stop an Emrakul from a Isle or Sneak Attack, it's a good answer against anything big without haste or a timewalk attached to it. Added benefit is you can even take out a turn 2 Goyf with it.

[Octopusman]

If you are affraid of Emrakul (and to a lesser extend cards like Leviathan and Progenitus), you should try out Tariff and Peacekeeper. Peacekeeper is proactive and can be removed (although giving it protection and ping your opponent to death with Lavamancer seems like a plan), but it's also decent against tribal.

Tariff is an old time favored for me, and although it doesn't stop an Emrakul from a Isle or Sneak Attack, it's a good answer against anything big without haste or a timewalk attached to it. Added benefit is you can even take out a turn 2 Goyf with it.

Thanks for your post Atwa. I also love Tariff and had them in my sideboard up until about half an hour before SCG San Jose in favor of Goblin Stingscougers. Like you said, It's best versus a show and tell Emrakul and it also hits most Progentitus. I think I'm hoping to have Ghost Quarters or Wasteland against the Shelldock Isle or Mosswort Bridge plan. I wouldn't say the deck does not fear Sneak Attack because of Revoker, but I haven't actually played against any build running it so I can't say for sure.
I wish I could have Runed Halo for Prog but it's worthless against Emrakul so perhaps Tariff is a great card. I will probably be thinking about Tariff more as the deck gets more finely tuned. One of the reasons that I had stingscourgers is so that I could have an answer to Emrakul and Iona (since I can't STP after them naming white) but I think Emrakul and especially Prog are more of a concern.
I ended up dropping these outs in favor of Canonist because I figure I wanted to have better game against combo. With the inclusion of Revoker, I might just get rid of needle in the board all together (gasp) since I have land destruction, cut a crypt and do 3 Tariff in the board.

I still feel that the deck doesn't want to run vial but I still feel that 2 shushers in the board isn't going to improve the counterbalance matchup which is what I am primarily concerned with although Magus of the Moon may help against 4 color CB. (side note and reiteration). Very frustrated when they have top, CB and a firespout somewhere in their top 3. It's gg. Shusher is amazing. Maybe it would be worth bumping it up to 4 in the board. I just feel naked without lots of graveyard hate in the board although I probably face more CB than dredge and lands combined. What's the alternative? Have decent maindeck graveyard hate? I don't see room for it and Jotun Grunt is usually played as a two of and I don't think there's enough food in the yard for both Grunt and Lavamancer if I run more than 2 of either.

I have thought about peacekeeper but the primary game plan is to beat with the hate bears. The deck would change dramatically with peacekeeper - so much so that it would be a totally different deck and there might as well be a different thread. Trying to get there with just a Lavamancer and bolts requires a ton of food in the graveyard. Anything is possible though. I'm not sure I would have a win condition with peacekeeper. I think Tariff is the best option even though it probably won't answer Iona or Emrakuls who have haste or were cast for free.

I'd like a sideboard that could transform the deck into having good matchups against specific decks that are powerful:
Emrakul/Prog/Iona
CB Top
Ichorid
(better matchup vs) Lands
(better matchup vs) Combo

If I could achieve a board like that, I'm confident that the main deck can be tuned to perform well vs the rest.


I'm going to test tomorrow so I will probably have a new list and updated information late on Wednesday.

[Octopusman]

Just did some testing and learned a lot about where the deck needs to be headed. I will update again when I get more time.

To sum it up:

There's just not enough gas or power in the chrome mox/simian spirit guide build.

The main deck is going to focus on agro and mid-range agro control/counterbalance and board into hate against graveyard strategies and combo.
I'm likely going to be including Aether Vials. Relic-Warder was good when I drew it and will be even better with Vial. This also helps against CB and counters.

I got wrecked by Goblins. Unfortunately, I'm not certain about Grim Lavamancer and Leonin Arbiter's futures in this deck.
Phyrexian Revoker is amazing as we figured. Magus of the Moon is amazing in this deck.

I am going to be testing Elspeth as well. She definitely offers abilities that this deck wants (evasion and damage).

All in all a good night. Learned a lot about what the deck doesn't need, what it does need, and how to fix it. Already looking forward to the next testing session!

[hyc8028]

Just did some testing and learned a lot about where the deck needs to be headed. I will update again when I get more time.

To sum it up:

There's just not enough gas or power in the chrome mox/simian spirit guide build.

The main deck is going to focus on agro and mid-range agro control/counterbalance and board into hate against graveyard strategies and combo.
I'm likely going to be including Aether Vials. Relic-Warder was good when I drew it and will be even better with Vial. This also helps against CB and counters.

I got wrecked by Goblins. Unfortunately, I'm not certain about Grim Lavamancer and Leonin Arbiter's futures in this deck.
Phyrexian Revoker is amazing as we figured. Magus of the Moon is amazing in this deck.

I am going to be testing Elspeth as well. She definitely offers abilities that this deck wants (evasion and damage).

All in all a good night. Learned a lot about what the deck doesn't need, what it does need, and how to fix it. Already looking forward to the next testing session!

If Arbiter is going out, does that mean Arie Mesa and Stoneforge Mystic will make their way back?

[Octopusman]

If Arbiter is going out, does that mean Arie Mesa and Stoneforge Mystic will make their way back?

If Arbiter goes out (sad face!), all search effects that are beneficial will be considered.

[edit] I'm leaning more towards Enlightened Tutor (likely to grab blood moon/other artifacts that will be good based on the situation) but Arid Mesa and Stoneforge Mystic are pretty much nobrainers except that I will likely bring Jitte back down to 2 and include SoFI and maybe the red/white sword whenever it gets printed.

[hyc8028]

If Arbiter goes out (sad face!), all search effects that are beneficial will be considered.

[edit] I'm leaning more towards Enlightened Tutor (likely to grab blood moon/other artifacts that will be good based on the situation) but Arid Mesa and Stoneforge Mystic are pretty much nobrainers except that I will likely bring Jitte back down to 2 and include SoFI and maybe the red/white sword whenever it gets printed.

Vial, Mystics and equipment. Feel like UW tempo shell without blue.

I think I under estimate the power of Leonin Relic-Warder and Phyrexian Revoker. They are savage when you have vial in play and they are going to be your primary answers to Top/CB/Vial/Equipment. I honestly think these 2 cards will bring your deck to the next level.

Don't get your hopes up about the R/W Sword. I have a feeling that it is going to suck.

[Octopusman]

Vial, Mystics and equipment. Feel like UW tempo shell without blue.

I think I under estimate the power of Leonin Relic-Warder and Phyrexian Revoker. They are savage when you have vial in play and they are going to be your primary answers to Top/CB/Vial/Equipment. I honestly think these 2 cards will bring your deck to the next level.

Don't get your hopes up about the R/W Sword. I have a feeling that it is going to suck.

I have a feeling SoFI is going to be the best still. If someone tries to swords to plowshares... the deck always can hope for mom. Other than that, the pro blue and triggered abilities are amazing.
The red/white sword also would mean that Elspeth can't pump/jump.

[Octopusman]

On a phone so I'll keep it short.

This deck is still in the works. Been planning on updating for a while now but have had [edit] no time. I tested more and took it to a small tourney where I placed 9th out of 18 missing top 8 by a small margin. I hope to post the much improved list soon.

I went 3-2. Two losses against Merfolk. The deck clearly needs a better merfolk strategy but is now able to have good game against a wide variety of decks!

Round 1 against cat sligh.
It wasn't too much of a problem although I was really trying to stabilize against t1 nacatl, t2 goblin guides during two games. Tough match! But with less panic it could be handled more easily perhaps.

Round 2, 3 against merfolk. I just couldn't seem to remove enough creatures. I even boarded in fallouts and thought my matchup was good with 7 sword effects plus VFO, jitte and lavamancer. Running aether vial and bringing in two shushers as well couldn't compete with their card advantage, basics, lack of search and fast clock.

Round 4 against that mud stompy deck with welder, vkey, tombs/traitors, top, and wyrmcoil engine. I was a little intimidated after naming welder with revoker as soon as he started drawing three cards a turn with top and 2 keys. Good experience playing against this deck but wyrmcoil bends over to path/plow and relic warder. I even made a huge player error by tariff and allowing him to get wyrm tokens. Even when we both miscounted jitte counters, I was still able to handle it fairly simply with revoker on welder/metalworker.

Round 5 against top 8 SCG Goblins pilot, Stefan. If I remember correctly, I got lucky naming sharpshooter and gempalm incinerator with revoker, landing jitte beats, and getting lots of CA with lavamancer.

Most notably, deck is running moms, lavamancers, 3 magus of moon (proved to do little that day), no mindcensors, arbiters, 4 sword, 3 path, 4 revoker, 4/4 wasteland/ghostquarter, 4 relic warders (amazing!), and vial. Also the two Elspeth 1.0 are AMAZING in this deck.

Lavamancer is a beast but still wasn't very useful against merfolk although he was FoW turn 1 at least 3 games. With that said, not sure red is pulling it's weight. To be honest, I'm not sure the deck is best off having red as a second color.
It's list is still different enough from a recenty posted "UW Arbiter" deck even if I were to switch it to UW. When I think about the bonuses blue can give this deck vs what it gets from red, it seems appealing. We will see.

SUPER FUN!!!!!!

[P-E]

maybe try with black instead of red it brings tidehollow sculler , CA with bob , discards etc

if you stick with red , maybe try imperial recruiter to dig for what you need revoker or else

[arwall]

I really like where this deck is going. It's something that I would build, I feel like, only built by someone who understands the game a bit more than I do. :tongue:

I'll give it a go and see what I come up with.

[Octopusman]

Thanks for the posts-

I do like black quite a bit. To be honest, I think that Thoughtseize is one of the best cards the deck could ask for.
Losing Lavamancer is going to hurt the decks reach and ability to impact the board. Gatekeeper of Malakir is extremely strong as well but I'm not sure a BBB is doable in this deck. Bob and Sculler are both insanely good. I think that both would help the deck greatly and are quality suggestions.

I'm still trying to understand how I got blown out so badly against Merfolk with three volcanic fallout, lavamancers, vials, and 7 spot removals. With relic-warders and revokers, I still feel the answer can likely be found in red. I think that spinal villain is likely too narrow and slow, but considering the nature of the deck, I will likely try Boil although that might be too slow. Slowing the opponent early is important and I'm wondering if I should put the Figures in the Magus of the Moon slot. I've already tested it in the deck quite a bit. It was good then, and it'll be even better now that the list has vial.


@ arwall, thanks for the encouragement. I think you'll have a lot of fun with the deck.

There's nothing like telling your opponent that it's too late to use their top once they've allowed vial's ability to resolve putting Revoker in play naming top. Zing!

There's no way to support three colors with Arbiter in the deck in my opinion but I would love to get meddling mage in here. I wish winter orb could beat for 2 (and not cost 4).

Ultimately, the deck just needs to be able to handle agro better. I wouldn't want to have a pyroclasm countered, but it's cost may make it better than volcanic fallout. In game two against goblins I did a double volcanic fallout and it was nice, but it would have been better for me to be casting pyroclasm in those situations. It's frustrating though because once Merfolk hits two lords, even Volcanic Fallout is useless. Pyroclasm could come out earlier and is pretty much a must counter but can be easily delayed by something like Cursecatcher. I did have trouble getting RR for volcanic fallout more than once. Maybe it's a simple as upping my Red land count but I doubt the problem is that superficial.

[Edit] Relic-warder and Duergar Hedge-Mage have both been super powerful and although I was tempted to put the hedge-mage in the deck in addition to the relic warders (that good!) it certainly doesn't help against agro decks which is my main concern now (and was since the beginning!).

I think for the next round of playtesting I'm going to swap out the magus of the moon for figure of destiny and 1 jitte for 1 sword of fire and ice. Expecting good things! Although, I'm really hesitant to take out disruption for vanilla beaters. I do expect it to help the deck's ultimate goal though, which is to become a finished deck that performs well. Sometimes you have to cut the pet cards for something better, even if it seems to deviate the deck from staying on plan.

Best wishes

[Octopusman]

A few points:

1. If I am not mistaken all of your creatures die to volcanic fallout. I know you are worried about swarms but I would consider another method to HATE on my opponent. Maybe needles for their vials so your LD strategy is effective. Maybe vials of your own so you can hate on Countertop by vialing in your dudes as uncounterable....?

2. If you are playing so many anti-search cards, I think you seriously have to look at playing all 4 PtE regardless of your mana screw theme because your first theme seems to me to be search screw...

3. Lastly, if you are a 2 color hate deck (with 1 color as red) you HAVE to consider playing moon effects. Between making it hard for your opponent to search for land, and turning all their nonbasics into mountains you will probably at least color screw them into the next century.

Just a suggestion of what I might test when I have time next:

-4 Volcanic Fallout
-3 StP
-2 Anjani Venjeant
-3 Sacred Foundry
-2 Battlefield Forge
-1 Karakas (no way to fetch it out)
-1 FoD

+4 Aether Vial
+2 Aven Mindcensor
+2 PtE
+4 Serra Avenger (Easily dropped with vial and ends the game with a jitte)
+ 4 RW Fetch (to fuel Mancer and play with crucible) Mindcensor only hurts the opponent and you are still playing a lot of land...

You have some great citp/state based effects on your creatures. Vial lets you use them as spells and screw your opponent over.

Lastly I would consider Mother of Runes over figure of destiny because Pro Merfolk (U) or Pro Goblins (R) is pretty damn tech too.

I didn't mean to steal your thunder I just think you have a great idea and I actually tested on MWS vs. something like this and it made a mess of my mana base once an arbiter was out.

hey jazzykat, I certainly hope you decide to keep magic as a hobby. Just thought I would point out that your #1 and #2 suggestions are turning out to be pretty accurate in regards to how the deck is forming.
Although, I did consider the moon effects and unfortunately it turned out to be less than you or I expected. Maybe in a later build that future printings enable...

Thanks for the good feedback. Vial has been amazing, my revoker eats their vials, vial works great against counterbalance which is fantastic and the obvious mistake of having fallout is changing too. The 4 paths have seemed to be the correct number as well.

Cheers,

[Octopusman]

Now that the site is working again, I decided to add some eye candy to the OP. Sometimes visuals help. I want to demonstrate some of the cool things you'll see while using this deck.

Enjoy!

[hyc8028]

Now that the site is working again, I decided to add some eye candy to the OP. Sometimes visuals help. I want to demonstrate some of the cool things you'll see while using this deck.

Enjoy!

Love the pics. Too bad you can't make it tomorrow. You going to Superstar with us right?