[SCD] Green Sun's Zenith

[(nameless one)]

For those who do not know, its the green card from the Zenith cycle from Mirrodin Besieged. It looks like this:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114212&d=1295289915

For those who cannot see the image:

Green Sun's Zenith XG

Sorcery

Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less, put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library

So the first thing that came into my mind was its good in EDH. Then I thought about its applications in Legacy. Possibly that missing card that will propel Combo Elves to a higher tier? What about a consistent way of getting Tarmogoyf/Knight of the Reliquary onto the field? Possibly creature toolbox, something that Survival of the Fittest used to provide? Running this with the likes of Trygon Predator/Qasali Pridemage/Gaddock Teeg?

With the creature power creep on the rise, this card could be a hidden gem.

Anything you guys want to share or discuss about this card?

[ReAnimator]

A lot of discussion of this card is in the Spoilers thread.

However just for completeness/redundancies sake there are a few key things:

Fetching out a Dryad Arbor on turn 1 is a legitimate play for accelerating.

You probably don't want to run Gaddok Teeg with this cause you know it sort of shuts down every other copy you draw after that.

X can be anything, so tutoring up a Pridemage is doable under a counterbalance and it will be hard for them to stop if you put enough mana into it.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I don't think there's anything "hidden" about it. This card is insanely powerful (notably because it puts stuff onto the battlefield rather than into your hand), especially since it shuffles back into your library.

It's sort of like Survival, except totally not. I want to run this in conjunction with blue. And Eternal Witness. And Snuff Out. And everything in life.

[Rune]

It seems like the stone cold nuts in an elf deck since it's both a combo enabler, an accelerant and a way to effectively answer permanent based hate. I think it will fix some of the many issues the deck has (e.g. being completely cold to a Counterbalance). On the other hand, Elf Combo didn't benefit much from Survival so I'm sceptical that this card will make it a truly competitive deck, although it will certainly be less of a joke now.

[ZeinVoncy]

All I can say is hot damn, I want my playset now! This card could spell game over in many instances. . .

[conboy31]

As mentioned, this card seems to have a very high utility. Grabbing combo pieces, a general creature tutor for green/gold, and dodging counterbalance all are fairly strong. This is the closest to literally being able to play 8 virtual copies of a creature.

[GGoober]

As mentioned, this card seems to have a very high utility. Grabbing combo pieces, a general creature tutor for green/gold, and dodging counterbalance all are fairly strong. This is the closest to literally being able to play 8 virtual copies of a creature.

Goyf for 1GG is still decent :P I'm not familiar with Elf combo, but I think Genesis Wave is potentially stronger? also chord of calling does the same thing but has more synergy with combo elves and being cheaper than this card.

[ReAnimator]

Goyf for 1GG is still decent :P I'm not familiar with Elf combo, but I think Genesis Wave is potentially stronger? also chord of calling does the same thing but has more synergy with combo elves and being cheaper than this card.

cord of calling is way more expensive and usless in the early turns though same with genesis wave.

[Aggro_zombies]

Goyf for 1GG is still decent :P I'm not familiar with Elf combo, but I think Genesis Wave is potentially stronger? also chord of calling does the same thing but has more synergy with combo elves and being cheaper than this card.
Genesis Wave is more of a finsher-type card in a deck with a bunch of lords. In straight combo Elves, this is better because it basically reads, ":1::g:: Search your library for another Nettle Sentinel or a Heritage Druid and put it into play. You gain Protection from Running Out of Mana until end of turn. Cast this spell again sometime later in the turn."

EDIT: This card is pretty nutty in combo Elves. Early on, it allows you to assemble your mana engine for low cost, while late it lets you make Progenitus or Regal Force. I'm not sure that particular build is necessarily better than this one (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36232), but GSZ seems a lot better in many ways than Natural Order.

[GGoober]

Genesis Wave is more of a finsher-type card in a deck with a bunch of lords. In straight combo Elves, this is better because it basically reads, ":1::g:: Search your library for another Nettle Sentinel or a Heritage Druid and put it into play. You gain Protection from Running Out of Mana until end of turn. Cast this spell again sometime later in the turn."

EDIT: This card is pretty nutty in combo Elves. Early on, it allows you to assemble your mana engine for low cost, while late it lets you make Progenitus or Regal Force. I'm not sure that particular build is necessarily better than this one (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36232), but GSZ seems a lot better in many ways than Natural Order.

Never thought of it that way, but yeah being unconditional to fetch up cheap green creatures and yet having the flexibility to fetch an expensive casting win-con seems strong. That flexibility is definitely the potential over Chord/GWave. But I have little experience with the deck, so was just musing.

[Final Fortune]

So, Green Sun's Zenith -> Dryad Arbor replaces Noble Hierarch and gives Storm Combo a Burning Wish -> Green Sun's Zenith -> ??? form of Tinker and still tutors for stuff like Xantid Swarm and Tinder Wall?

Yeah, I'd say this card gets busted really fast.

[Aggro_zombies]

Never thought of it that way, but yeah being unconditional to fetch up cheap green creatures and yet having the flexibility to fetch an expensive casting win-con seems strong. That flexibility is definitely the potential over Chord/GWave. But I have little experience with the deck, so was just musing.
I don't have much either, but it seems good. The issue is that straight combo versions of Elves are pretty dependent on getting a Glimpse going in order to combo off, and this doesn't help with that at all. The Nass build I linked had Intuition into Vengevines, though an Elf deck using GSZ instead would likely get Progenitus or Regal Force (the latter to combo off, the former to win). I'm not sure how easily Elves can generate eleven mana with a starting seven plus one or two cards, none of which are Glimpse, but it's worth finding out. At the very least, if you draw more than one of this card, you can use one to set up a mana engine and the second to fetch a win.

EDIT: @Final Fortune: what green creatures other than Swarm would storm want to fetch? If you can generate a bunch of mana and have Burning Wish, why not just win?

[Amon Amarth]

The more I think about this card the more silly it seems to get. I keep reading it and think "holy shit it puts it into play."

[ummon]

WoTC recently banned Mystical Tutor and SoTF and then they print this? What the hell are they smoking? This card will make Elves Combo Tier 1 imo.

[Deviruchi]

I like the design of this card and I think it will make Spell Pierce (and Firespout / Perish... ) even better ;)

I would love to see someone cast it to fetch Xantid Swarm / Vexing Shusher to protect Natural Order / Ad Nauseam. About Green Sun's Zenith -> Gaddock Teeg - why not play 1 in 75 if it increases your chances to win.

[Hanni]

I agree, I think this card will push Elves to Tier 1. It won't dominate the format or anything, but the deck will be a serious contender now. This card is just all sorts of busted, and it makes no sense that they'd print something like this after banning Mystical Tutor and Survival of the Fittest back to back. Then again, they don't care about Eternal formats, but... doesn't this follow the same logic, that it will continue to get more and more degenerate after every set where they print a good green creature?

[Aggro_zombies]

I like the design of this card and I think it will make Spell Pierce (and Firespout / Perish... ) even better ;)

I would love to see someone cast it to fetch Xantid Swarm / Vexing Shusher to protect Natural Order / Ad Nauseam. About Green Sun's Zenith -> Gaddock Teeg - why not play 1 in 75 if it increases your chances to win.
Gaddock Teeg turns off your Green Sun's Zeniths, though.

[Nonex]

Green Sun's Zenith works under 3 mana, which is what would push it over Chord of Calling, but the more mana/creatures you have, the better Chord of Calling is in comparison. Shuffling Zenith back into the library doesn't mean you'll see it again anytime soon unless you search for it or abuse library manipulation. So IMO, its power level in Legacy will heavily depend on green creatures with cost 2 or lower.

The 1st turn Zenith into Dryad Arbor play sounds strong, but it will deserve a good amount of testing first. Noble Hierarch and Llanowar Elves are susceptible to many things, but not to Wasteland.

[emidln]

This isn't an alternate draw engine comparable to Glimpse or Skullclamp. It doesn't tutor for Glimpse. This makes the already ridiculous mana generation ability of the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel engine more consistent. Thoroughly unimpressive.

[wcm8]

Enchantress can use it to increase their virtual Argothian count and improve opening hand consistency. Certainly seems better than Living Wish.

[Namida]

How many green creatures does Enchantress run, that you would want to run 4 Argothian Enchantress, and X of this card to find the Enchantress? Eventually, your deck will have X dead cards in it, which I certainly don't think is a good thing.

[Valtrix]

How many green creatures does Enchantress run, that you would want to run 4 Argothian Enchantress, and X of this card to find the Enchantress? Eventually, your deck will have X dead cards in it, which I certainly don't think is a good thing.

If you've used all 4 of your argothians then you're either probably in the lead or not winning anyway.

[Final Fortune]

I don't have much either, but it seems good. The issue is that straight combo versions of Elves are pretty dependent on getting a Glimpse going in order to combo off, and this doesn't help with that at all. The Nass build I linked had Intuition into Vengevines, though an Elf deck using GSZ instead would likely get Progenitus or Regal Force (the latter to combo off, the former to win). I'm not sure how easily Elves can generate eleven mana with a starting seven plus one or two cards, none of which are Glimpse, but it's worth finding out. At the very least, if you draw more than one of this card, you can use one to set up a mana engine and the second to fetch a win.

EDIT: @Final Fortune: what green creatures other than Swarm would storm want to fetch? If you can generate a bunch of mana and have Burning Wish, why not just win?

Not certain, but +4x Xantid Swarms, Dryad Arbor, enchantment destruction for Counter Balance etc. combined with color fixing or mana ramping via Tinder Wall gives the card a ton of versaility. I can't really find a creature at a mana cost that'd win the game on an Empty the Warrnes or Diminishing Returns level, but if not Belcher there's probably some deck out there with enough mana generation to break it like Elves.

I mean, it probably just gets tossed into every aggro-control there is, I just find it really funny how Dryad Arbor + ??? probably makes this card playable in anything you throw it in.

[Oibade]

I agree, I think this card will push Elves to Tier 1. It won't dominate the format or anything, but the deck will be a serious contender now. This card is just all sorts of busted, and it makes no sense that they'd print something like this after banning Mystical Tutor and Survival of the Fittest back to back. Then again, they don't care about Eternal formats, but... doesn't this follow the same logic, that it will continue to get more and more degenerate after every set where they print a good green creature?

Then, will they see the card as degenerate and, sooner o later, ban it?
Or will they ban something else that enables the combo to work, like they did with survival and vengevine?

4 copies of this card is crazy: mana intensive -sure- but it's nuts with SDT, shuffling and drawing... And shuffling... And drawing...

4x SDT
4x Hierarch
4x Goyf
4x This
Xx Toolbox/ Fat Green Creatures

[(nameless one)]

They wont ban this card in Legacy...

Its going to be in Standard for a year and a half.

[eq.firemind]

Turn 1 Forest, this for Dryad Arbor.
Turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Natural Order.
Green Chalice Aggro just recieved another way of turn 2 Prog and also great tutor tool.
I just love how versatile this card is. Llanowar Elves on turn 1-2, Tarmo/Qasali/Teeg on turn 3-4, everything you dream about after turn 5.

[lolosoon]

Let me fill your decklist :

4x SDT
4x Hierarch
4x Goyf
4x This (Green Sun's Zenith - GSZ)
Xx Toolbox/ Fat Green Creatures
3x Dryad Arbor
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

Then, you can go for a blue shell with CB (cause you're already packing those SDT), cantrips and FoW...

And play some utility guys aka Pridemages, Predators or RWM as 1-2ofs that GSZ can tutor for...

You have a great tempo curve : Turn 1 Tropical, GSZ for Dryad. T2 Island, GSZ for Goyf (or CB+Top, Goyf Daze Proof etc...). T3 NO=>Prog.
Or the classical Bant start with T1 Hierarch and T2 Goyf or GSZ=>Goyf/Pridemage and so on...

But it could create a new aggro deck, or a more classic one with a twist alla Zoo=>BigZoo

[EDIT] See above : GSZ put Llanowar Elves into play with a Chalice alreday set @1 on the board. Go Go Stompy ?!

[dahcmai]

I like it for getting Pridemages and Predators clearing up board space in decks that hate having that stuff main decked. Too bad it's only green creatures, I'd love to be able to get a Cavern Harpy, Painter, or something like that.

[Tacosnape]

People are viewing this card wrong.

Yes, it's a tutor for Elves. Yes, it's fantastic with Dryad Arbor.

For real, though, this card is Tarmogoyf 5-8 for everyone who always ever wanted to run it.

You've seen the discussions, right? Tarmogoyf should have been a 3-drop? Well, now it is.

White-Green won't like it as much, because, well, Knight of the Reliquary is better than a 3-drop Goyf. Or maybe it will, because now you can run 4-drop Knights of the Reliquary, also. But any green-black concoction packing Tarmogoyf ought to go pick this up immediately. And it's Dark Confidant friendly too. Only losing one life to get a free Tarmogoyf? Sweet times, guys, sweet times.

[GGoober]

The card has playability that's for sure, the ability to dodge CB/Chalice through its "x" cost is invaluable, or the ability for decks like Green Stompy and Elves to be improved another step makes me happy.

Stompy can now cast GG creatures with ease using this card, and the stompy manabase fits perfectly with this card.

Elves can use this for 2 purposes: tutoring an early combo piece e.g. Heritage Druid/Sentinel/Priest to make the combo more consistent and reuse it again to fetch a Regal Force/win-condition.

I'm not sold as running this card solely to grab goyf, but a Gx-based deck can definitely use this card if those decks are only looking to play 8-12 creatures that they are concerned with so they can cut down on other redundant slots and run 4 of these with the sole purpose to fetch those 8 strong creatures out (looking at Knight/Goyf an a singleton Trygon etc).

The fact that it shuffles itself back is really strong, since your density of threats only increases over time when it gets shuffled back.

[DragoFireheart]

Tarmogoyf Tutor
2G
Sorcery

Search your library for a Tarmogoyf and then put it unto the battlefield. Then shuffle Tarmogoyf Tutor into your library.



I like it.

[(nameless one)]

Tarmogoyf Tutor
2G
Sorcery

Search your library for a Tarmogoyf and then put it unto the battlefield. Then shuffle Tarmogoyf Tutor into your library.



I like it.

You forgot the second part of it: Kicker X: Screw target Counterbalance.

[vikram]

Hi, I play a Gamekeeper deck, and the printing of Green Sun's Zenith revolutionized the deck for me.

For those unfamiliar with Gamekeeper, here is how the deck functions...

Step 1 - Play discard (4 Duress, 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Cabal Therapy) to rid your opponent of their discard, their countermagic, and cards like Humility/Ensnaring Bridge/Counterbalance/Oblivion Ring (cards that stop Emrakul) and sometimes StP/Path (in those situations where you need to go the Innocent Blood route for the combo rather than the Cabal Therapy route and thus your Gamekeeper is vulnerable to StP/Path). You can also use Deed and Innocent Blood to bide your time against aggro decks.

Step 2 - Tutor up and cast a Gamekeeper using any of the following (4 Living Wish, 1 Rhystic Tutor/Worldly Tutor, 4 Green Sun's Zenith, or 3 Gamekeeper).

Step 3 - Sacrifice the Gamekeeper using Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood/Phyrexian Tower/popping a Deed for 4/using Living Wish to tutor up a Shriekmaw/Fleshbag Marauder. Keep cycling through Gamekeeper using Cabal Therapies added to the yard until you get an Emrakul into play.

Step 4 - Swing with Emrakul for the win.

Now with Green Sun's Zenith, the deck devotes a total of 9 cards to the combo making it more consistent than it's ever been, and the rest of the deck plays very controllish cards that also happen to synergize with the combo. Thus for all intents and purposes, this deck basically plays out like Train Wreck until it surprises your opponent and lays down an Emrakul, often on turn 3, sometimes on turn 2, and sometimes on turn 4, and the game is effectively over the turn immediately after. The combination of all discard, the wishboard and the Deeds do a great job of brutalizing just about any deck. Other than the occasional storm combo deck, I honestly haven't run into any generally unfavorable matchups. Even storm combo is often winnable if you drew a sufficient amount of your discard (you play 11 discard spells and can usually manage a win if you draw 1-2 of them early on). Other than that, the deck wins far more often than not, against a variety of decks.

Current Decklist...

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Innocent Blood

4 Dark Ritual
4 Pernicious Deed

2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Gamekeeper
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Living Wish
1 Rhystic Tutor
(or Worldly Tutor)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Crystal Vein

I want this deck to be optimal and as good as it can possibly be. To this end, I have 7 Specific Questions for you guys that will help me optimize it...

Question 1. Green Sun's Zenith vs. Eldamari's Call Before Green Sun's Zenith, I used to play Eldamari's Call in it's place. The Eldamari's Call route didn't combo nearly as well with Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, or Crystal Vein. As a result, this used to be a controllish deck that was atleast one full turn slower and played slower disruptive cards like Vindicates, Maelstrom Pulses, Hymn to Tourachs and Eldamari's Calls. Since Green Sun's Zenith got spoiled, I cut white, added cards like Ancient Tomb, Crystal Vein and Dark Ritual, added Duress, and made the deck a lot faster and more explosive. Do you think this was a good call, or do you think I would be better off going the old route, playing Eldamari's Call instead of Green Sun's Zenith and Vindicates instead of Dark Ritual?

Question 2. Rhystic Tutor vs. Worldly Tutor vs. Skeletal Scrying vs. Phyrexian Arena vs. Something Else. I don't feel comfortable unless I have 12-13 ways to get my hands on a Gamekeeper. The first 11 are set in stone (4 Living Wish, 4 Green Sun's Zenith, or 3 Gamekeeper). It's the 12th card I'm confused about. So far, Rhystic Tutor seems to be the best option. It is usually used to tutor up Gamekeeper, so Worldly Tutor would work as well, however, unlike Worldly Tutor, it can used to tutor a Deed or a Cabal Therapy or some other random card in a pinch, plus it's not card disadvantage. Other cards I'm considering are random card draw like Phyrexian Arena or Skeletal Scrying.

Question 3. Should I cut a Duress to add yet another tutor/card draw spell of some sort? As I just mentioned, I want to have 12-13 ways to get my hands on a Gamekeeper. I am all about consistency and dislike mulliganing unless I'm land screwed. Do you think 12 ways to get Gamekeeper is enough (the current configuration), or should cut a Duress to make room for a 13th tutor/card draw.

Question 4. Pernicious Deed vs. Maelstrom Pulse Both cards can be used to take out threats, opposing creatures, or blow up your own Gamekeeper. Deed is more explosive. However, it takes two turns and seven mana to do what Maelstrom Pulse often does in one turn and for just 3 mana (blow up your own Gamekeeper). Since the rest of the deck has gotten faster, do you think I should go with the faster option here and cut some Deeds for Pulses?

Question 5. The 2nd Emrakul vs. a Progenitus vs. a Blightsteel Colossus vs. a Smallpox Should I stick with the current 2 Emrakul configuration, should I just play a single Emrakul thus freeing up a slot from the deck, or should I do a 1/1 Split with Progenitus or Blightsteel Colossus instead of the second Emrakul. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each creature? The deck also functions okay with just 1 Emrakul maindeck and nothing else. However, situations arise where you have the Emrakul in your hand and have to use Cabal Therapy to discard it, or rarely, where Emrakul is the last or second to last card in your library. But these situations are fairly uncommon and there are ways around them thanks to Cabal Therapy. Should I go back to the 1 Emrakul configuration just to make room for a bomb like Maelstrom Pulse or Smallpox maindeck?

Question 6. A 2nd Crystal Vein vs. my only Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth I added Crystal Vein to the deck when I added Green Sun's Zenith to the deck. It's been fantastic (far better than City of Traitors, I tried both), to the point where I'm considering cutting Urborg to make room for a 2nd Crystal Vein. However, Urborg saves me 4-6 points of life when I play it early, since it lets me not have to sacrifice fetchlands and lets me not have to lose two life each time I use an Ancient Tomb for just one mana rather than two. Far more importantly, the Urborg brings my colored land sources up to 17 instead of 16. Since the only way to use Dark Ritual to play Gamekeeper on turn two or to play Green Sun's on turn three is if I have atleast two colored lands in my opening hand rather than just one, going up to 17 colored land helps me have two colored lands in my opening hand more consistently.

Question 7. Any advice on my current Living Wish sideboard? Which cards specifically should I cut from/add to this sideboard? Here is what I currently play...

1 Gamekeeper - Combo piece
1 Yixlid Jailer - Shuts down Ichorid
1 Viridian Shaman - Blows up Ensnaring Bridge and other artifacts that stop Emrakul
1 Viridian Zealot - Blows up Humility/Oblivion Ring. Use to be wispmare back when I played white
1 Shriekmaw - Doubles as a tutorable removal spell, and a way to kill my own Gamekeepr
1 Fleshbag Marauder - Kills opposing Emrakuls/Progenitus while letting me sac my own Gamekeeper, but costs one more mana than Shriekmaw
1 Phyrexian Tower - Doubles as a mana sources, and a tutorable Gamekeeper sacrifice outlet. I would play more maindeck if it wasn't legendary
1 Eternal Witness - It helps to be able to get my Deed back, or to grab an Innocent Blood or something
1 Tombstalker - Being able to tutor up a 5/5 flyer for just two mana is helpful when I need a cheap to cast blocker and can't quite combo out. Capable of going the distance all on it's own
1 Bojuka Bog - Doubles as a tutorable colored mana source, and graveyard hate. I often side it in to increase my land count against decks that play heavy land destruction.
1 Wasteland - I've beaten 43 Lands with this deck many times solely because I was able to tutor this up and waste their Maze of Ith. Also stops Karakas and can be sided in against land destruction.
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - I've tutored this up against burn a few times. Being able to use my Ancient Tombs and fetchlands for mana without having to take life loss has won me quite a few games in my old controllish build of this deck.
1 Phyrexian Revoker - A tutorable Pithing Needle that also stops Lion's Eye Diamond and Jace 2.0. I could see this being useful.
2 Tsunami - Everyone plays islands, except for this one deck

Thanks in advance for your advice in regards to my questions.

[FieryBalrog]

This card is going to pose some interesting deckbuilding questions.

What I don't like is that it probably makes Natural Order even more prevalent, as I don't like the oops-I-win nonsense that makes Force of Will keep getting better.

[DragoFireheart]

You forgot the second part of it: Kicker X: Screw target Counterbalance.

My bad. Thank you for correcting me.

[ivanpei]

After thinking the card over, IMO it is the nuts. This will see play in alot of decks. It replaces/conpliments heirarchs in existing bant decks and is an auto 4 off. This will make a huge splash in legacy. Countertop appears to be getting screwed over pretty hard by the new needle on a stick and now this. Apparently wizards is taking steps to prevent countertop domination when the real fact is that aether vial decks already screws countertop pretty hard.

[The Treefolk Master]

Countertop appears to be getting screwed over pretty hard by the new needle on a stick and now this. Apparently wizards is taking steps to prevent countertop domination when the real fact is that aether vial decks already screws countertop pretty hard.

Wizards want you to play aggro. Not combo, not control, aggro.

[Octopusman]

Wizards want you to play aggro. Not combo, not control, aggro.

Seems pretty funny since this is an insane combo card.
But I do agree with you... only it seems they don't exactly know how to achieve this beyond making Merfolk a tier 1 deck.

I'd like to see if anyone has come up with belcher or more specifically spanish inquisition list using this card.
Anyone?
?
.

[DragoFireheart]

Wizards want you to play aggro. Not combo, not control, aggro.

Hence the banning of SotF and not Vengevine.


WoTC: PLAY AGGRO PLAY IT NOW CONTROL IS SLOW BORING COMBO MAKES NEWBS RAGE QUIT AGGRO aggro aggro aggro...........................

[ivanpei]

True true, all these insane creature related cards are driving me crazy! Anyway I started a thread to concentrate on the obvious synergy of Zenith and Natural Order:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19772-Zenith-Order-%28GUW-GWB%29

In the thread I summarize the power and the brokenness of the Zenith in Bant Aggro and The Rock. I'd really appreciate your views and ideas for these decks, especially on possible tutor targets. Cheers!

[dontbiteitholmes]

It's not so much that WOTC wants everyone to play aggro. It's just that they want everyone to play creatures.

[DragoFireheart]

It's not so much that WOTC wants everyone to play aggro. It's just that they want everyone to play creatures.

Find me an creature-less aggro deck.

[Nessaja]

Find me an creature-less aggro deck.
That's only proving his point.

[alderon666]

You could see this card as a version of Noble Hierarch that works as a late game tutor for your big guys. I know it's a hell of a stretch but it's just what it is. A good early game accell and a fine topdeck.

Looks interesting.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've been playing around with GSZ, particularly in a GW aggro-control shell with Stoneforge Mystic and just a SoFI and a Jitte (and NOgenitus, of course). I'd seriously underestimated the power of fetching a first-turn Dryad; you're basically guaranteed either Dryad or Hierarch to start the game, and Dryad can even wear the equipment. GSZ is nuts; I love it.

[ivanpei]

You could see this card as a version of Noble Hierarch that works as a late game tutor for your big guys. I know it's a hell of a stretch but it's just what it is. A good early game accell and a fine topdeck.

Looks interesting.

EXACTLY, do you realise the significance of this? Running 8 turn 1 accelerators with little added risk of bad topdecks? That is just insane. And you add the fact that it tutors into exactly what you need, either a simple tarmo, or a pridemage and even eternal witness to grab back a force of will/STP/Natural order. It is busted.

[Kuma]

Find me an creature-less aggro deck.

Burn.

[Justin]

EXACTLY, do you realise the significance of this? Running 8 turn 1 accelerators with little added risk of bad topdecks? That is just insane. And you add the fact that it tutors into exactly what you need, either a simple tarmo, or a pridemage and even eternal witness to grab back a force of will/STP/Natural order. It is busted.

I agree with this. I'd say that GSZ might prove to be the best Legacy card of this entire set. It might even become a Legacy staple, in which almost every deck that runs a fair amount of green creatures will run it.

[DragoFireheart]

Burn.

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

[Mosesthecoot]

I believe he was implying that the comment of finding a creature-less aggro deck was a 'burn'. perhaps, to be clearer, a 'sick nasty burn' .

On topic, I have preordered my Zeniths and Magnavoxs. I might be overpaying but if it turns out to be as good of a card as it seems, I wont mind. I too am happy that I don't have to worry about how many pridemages/predators to put in the main anymore because the answer is now 5.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

On topic, I have preordered my Zeniths and Magnavoxs.

Magnavox? I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about.

[Gocho]

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

Burn is a combo deck. A bad one, but a combo deck. You need 6-7 burn spells + 2-3 Mountains to win.
In the other side a combo deck needs 1-2-3 cards and some lands.

You dislike burn, ok, but this is your opinion.

Maybe we need to make a full new category when wizards print enough mill spells so they can play burn-style.
But I think that is not necessary.

[Kuma]

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

Dude, take a chill pill.

I didn't say Burn was good, but it sure as hell isn't a combo or control deck.


I believe he was implying that the comment of finding a creature-less aggro deck was a 'burn'. perhaps, to be clearer, a 'sick nasty burn' .

No, I meant the deck that uses lots of three damage instants and sorceries.

[DragoFireheart]

@Kuma: I am chill, but I believe that burn is so uninspiring and lame that it gains it's own category of deck type.

@Gocho: You could apply the same logic to any deck. Get a few Tropicals, play countertop combination, play a Goyf, turn it sideways a few times and win. We can clearly see that isn't a combo deck, but just a good synergy of cards. Burn is a good synergy of cards.

Combo decks are a very specific combination of cards. You NEED to ramp mana to up your storm count, or you NEED Show and Tell to drop Emrakul for 3 mana, or you NEED Bridge from Below to make Ichorid the deck it is.

Burn doesn't need anyone card: it just needs someone with enough intelligence to be able to pick up the cards, turn them (Mountains) sideways and play Lightning Bolt or the other variations of it to win.

[Artowis]

I like how this thread went from discussing the second beat Green tutor ever printed to debating the merits of Aggro and what WOTC wants you to be playing. Way to stay on topic.

Of course when you can sum up the card as, '4-of in almost any base green deck since it's either a mana accelerator, utility or Tarmogoyf' then there isn't too much more to say without going into specific decks.

[DragoFireheart]

Of course when you can sum up the card as, '4-of in almost any base green deck since it's either a mana accelerator, utility or Tarmogoyf' then there isn't too much more to say without going into specific decks.

Exactly. There isn't much more to say about this card:

- It get's utility creatures like Qasali Pridemage.

- It acts like Tarmogoyf 5-8.

- It can get around CMC specific spells and effects like Spell Snare or Counterbalance.

- It can mana accel ala Dryad Arbor.

It's going to have an impact on the format. How much I am unsure but I can't wait to see.

[keys]

I agree that it looks reaaaally good. But it does have disadvantages.

Notably, Spell Pierce owns it.

I'm stocking up on Perish...

[ivanpei]

Spell pierce owns Jace TMS too, but that doesn't mean Jace is bad. But I understand what you are getting at. Pure aggro decks like zoo won't be using it due to the extra mana involved when going for goyf. Zoo would just play more KOTRs and Sylvan libraries. But the Zenith will definitely be King in midrange decks due to the accel and infinite utillity.

[Angelfire]

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

Sounds like someone builds decks that get stomped by burn (:

"Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies"

I play burn (ussually sligh, but very similar): I'm not poor or a newbie (I would bet I am rated higher than you). So I must be an asshole? Sound logic there. I enjoy my games to be fast and I like to keep pressure on my opponents. I like being able to kill my opponents even when they clog up the board with permanents.

Burn (and Sligh) are viable deck types and are a helluvalot more interactive than 90% of combo decks. Burn kills creatures when it has to and goes for the dome when it thinks it can race you. Combo literally just "goldfishes" hoping you do zero interacting with it. Magic where you opponent takes a 10 minute turn and all you do is cross you rfingers hoping they fuck up or fizzle is not fun (aka most combo decks).

I would also argue Burn is some kind of Aggro/Combo hybrid.

[keys]

Spell pierce owns Jace TMS too, but that doesn't mean Jace is bad.

I think the moral is that Spell Pierce owns the format. ;)

[Malchar]

It's kind of funny how hard it is to place burn into an archetype considering that the first "good deck" ever was the lightning bolt + mountains deck. Historically, burn should be its own archetype with creature-based aggro decks as its subset.

[Tzunamii777]

There's aggro, aggro control, combo control, combo, aggro combo and burn: Decks with lots of threats, decks with threats and permission, decks with permission and a combo, decks with just a combo, decks with the combo and threats and then there is burn. Burn isn't aggro, combo or control: It's fucking burn. Yes, burn decks have their own catagory of deck types. Decks for people who like creatures, decks for people that love combos, decks for controllish people and then there is the burn deck: the one asshole at my local store who plays burn, or that new player that thinks playing the same fucking game every game is fun, or that player who can't even afford to drive but wants to play magic. Burn isn't even playing magic. It's like one person is playing a magic card deck while you play goldfish or blackjack or some other fucking card game as your magic deck. Burn is for assholes, poor people or newbies and doesn't fit into any archtype because it is it's own archtype. As far as I am concerned, burn isn't even a real magic deck. It might look like a magic deck and it may play like a magic deck, but it isn't one.

It's passionate rants like this that keep me pimping out my burn deck with Arabian mts, and why I take it with me to any shop I visit.