[SCD] Thrun, the Last Troll

[Antonius]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114175&d=1295240601

Thrun, the Last Troll
2GG
Legendary Creature - Troll Shaman
Thrun can't be countered.
Thrun can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.
1G: Regenerate Thrun.
4/4

The new bane of CBtop? Seriously, guy seems really good as a sideboard card.

[Gheizen64]

Tell me again how you're going to swing with this past a Goyf, then we'll talk.

[Aggro_zombies]

Tell me again how you're going to swing with this past a Goyf, then we'll talk.
This. Only getting a 4/4 for four mana is not so hot in this format. For example, Vendillion Clique also gets around Counterbalance (most of the time) and evades Goyf.

[GGoober]

The new bane of CBtop? Seriously, guy seems really good as a sideboard card.

Naw, there's a better creature at 2GG that has both shroud and Goyf evasion - Progenitus.

Although this guy is quite beastly in EDH as a general. You can basically play him and aside from non-Wrath of God and non-hallowed Burial sweepers, he's always going to stick in play. He is going to be relevant in Standard though as far as I can tell. Basically he's a much better Great Sable Stag but legendary and GSS saw quite a lot of play when control decks were popular.

On a sidenote, he better be the last Troll, if WotC prints another Troll after this one, I'll troll them.

[mossivo1986]

Gheizen64
Tell me again how you're going to swing with this past a Goyf, then we'll talk.


Aggro_zombies
This. Only getting a 4/4 for four mana is not so hot in this format. For example, Vendillion Clique also gets around Counterbalance (most of the time) and evades Goyf.

I think your both wrong.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think your both wrong.
Care to elaborate? It's not very difficult to get Goyf to a 4/5: land, sorcery, instant, and your pick of creature or enchantment.

The fact that this guy is legendary makes him a lot worse than he would otherwise be. If you could make more than one of him, getting around a lone Goyf would be fine. As it is, what deck wants him? Four mana is probably too much for most Zoo builds, Bant Aggro doesn't want him, Counterbalance decks already have tools to fight other Counterbalance decks, etc.

Besides, if you're using him to beat Counterbalance, why not pay one less and run Grip so you can resolve the rest of your spells?

I guess he beats up on Landstill, but that deck is not the best right now anyway.

[Clark Kant]

It's a sad day in Magic when a 4/4 regenerating, uncounterable guy immune to removal for four mana is considered underwhelming. :frown:

As for Goyf, you do what you always do, you counter the Goyf, failing that you StP the goyf, failing that you Sower of Temptation the Goyf. Your opponent doesn't have the same options when dealing with this dude.

[Aggro_zombies]

As for Goyf, you do what you always do, you counter the Goyf, failing that you StP the goyf, failing that you Sower of Temptation the Goyf. Your opponent doesn't have the same options when dealing with this dude.
This particular suite of options suggests the Counterbalance mirror, which would be better served by running Krosan Grip than this guy. This guy comes in a distant third after Goyf and Clique on the "list of creatures a creature-light deck would want to run against other control decks".

[kiblast]

Tell me again how you're going to swing with this past a Goyf, then we'll talk.

Umh. Rancor+ double Berserk is GG and you can't even Sword him. :D Could be nice in Berserk Stompy when you fail to kill turn 2-3.

[Sims]

It's a sad day in Magic when a 4/4 regenerating, uncounterable guy immune to removal for four mana is considered underwhelming. :frown:

Well, it IS legacy. Making cards like this terrible is par for the course.

I'll probbly play him quite a bit in casual and maybe EDH.

[mossivo1986]

ell, it IS legacy. Making cards like this terrible is par for the course.

There is nothing bad about a 4/4 for 4 that is a sure thing.

[Rico Suave]

There is nothing bad about a 4/4 for 4 that is a sure thing.

Yes there, the fact it costs 4.

[ummon]

There is nothing bad about a 4/4 for 4 that is a sure thing.

It's not a Progenitus...

When I read the card name thought, I thought it was an unhinged card. :laugh: I think R&D must be having a laugh about this card.

[Clark Kant]

Naw, there's a better creature at 2GG that has both shroud and Goyf evasion - Progenitus.

Last I heard Natural Order...

a.) Can be countered

b.) Can have the creature you intended to sac StPed

c.) Requires you to cast and sac another green creature, so it usually costs more than 4 mana.

Not saying this card is anywhere near as good as Natural Order. But it's not a fair comparison. This troll is very difficult to stop. However, I really don't see what deck would would play it. He is not a sideboard card imo. You don't sideboard win conditions, you sideboard hate and antihate. This card seems like the ideal win condition for a green control deck. Wasn't there such a deck in legacy before, the one that ran Krosan Tusker?

[bakofried]

b.) is a violation. You sac the dude as part of paying for the spell, so it would be like responding to someone floating mana. And chances are, Proggy and Goyf are better win-cons for Green control.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I really like this creature, but being legendary is a bit of a drawback. I don't think it's necessarily better than our other options, but still--wowza. I would love to see it getting some play, although I doubt it will see light in any established deck.

[majikal]

I just don't see any reason to run this guy over Vengevine if you must have a 4-mana, 4-power guy. The only thing he really has on VV is the fact that he's immune to point removal, and even that isn't saying much. If they're wasting removal on your 4-mana guy, that just means your Knights of the Reliqary and Tarmogoyfs are getting in there.

[mossivo1986]

soo many decks are running 4 stp and boarding in 3 path, that's definitely not true.

[Skeggi]

I used to use

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mi/135.jpg

as a Umezawa's Jitte carrier in a weird version of The Rock. But even he is too slow. The fact that this guy is a bit bigger and can't get countered for 1 mana extra won't make him better.

[FieryBalrog]

It's a sad day in Magic when a 4/4 regenerating, uncounterable guy immune to removal for four mana is considered underwhelming. :frown:

This is Legacy, there are virtually zero 4-mana creatures that see any play at all (with a nod to Abyssal Persecutor and Magus of the Tabernacle in the "tier 2 decks" section). Across the whole game, all 13000 cards of it.

I'm sure he'll see a lot of play in Standard.

[Gui]

The fact that this guy cannot be countered and won't die after that is pretty huge, imo, even at 4cc.

4cc is not impossible for control decks, and it won't ever be a wasted card for them. I think UGb Deedstill can have use for this guy better than it can have for Prog. And this kind of control deck don't necessarily have to go past goyf, i.e. stall him until you deed for 2 and got a irremovable 4/4 beater for the kill. Maybe there are better options, but I can see it being played here and there...

And it can even be a sideboard option against blue decks that runs removals, a.k.a. Legacy decks.

[Rico Suave]

This guy definitely dies. Don't fool yourself.

[Muradin]

I consider him to be good and even if its only for being "The last troll".

[dahcmai]

It's sad when he's just not going to cut it in Legacy. I really love the idea of this card. If he had been a 4/7 or something, I would play it, but Goyf is the main reason he will never be worth all that mana. Well, that and getting mangled by Goblins, merfolk, and Zoo, while you build up that 4.

I'll play it in Standard though. He's pretty damned amazing there. Virtually unkillable.

[colo]

I'll play it in Standard though. He's pretty damned amazing there. Virtually unkillable.

I have exactly zero experience with (or interest in, for that matter) Standard, but don't you think that the plethora of critters featuring Infect will rain on the everlasting troll parade quite a bit?

[Crysthorn]

don't you think that the plethora of critters featuring Infect will rain on the everlasting troll parade quite a bit?
For that there'd have to be an infect deck which is not tier 3. Maybe after Mirrodin Besieged such deck will emerge, but so far it didn't happen.

[Mr. Safety]

Does anyone remember a deck called Good Stuff? I think it was an extended deck 2 years back, and it ran stuff that had built in protection (Troll Ascetic, Silhana Ledgewalker) along with some ramp, equpiment, and pump spells.

Is a mid-range mono-green aggro build even feasible in legacy? Just for discussion's sake, consider this list:

2x Thran, the Last Troll
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Slippery Bogle
3x Vexing Shusher
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Rancor
4x Berserk
3x Seal of Strength
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
21 Forests

[kiblast]

Just for discussion's sake, consider this list:

2x Thran, the Last Troll
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Slippery Bogle
3x Vexing Shusher
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Rancor
4x Berserk
3x Seal of Strength
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
21 Forests

I don't think this is feasible in legacy. You don't have a real fast clock (as you real beaters can start beating on turn 4) and no way to refill your hand after 4th turn. Sylvan library is not enough. I mean, the creatures you are using are nice, but they will either get stopped by Tarmogoyfs /Kotr or they will be EE'd or WoG'ed. You need to kill your opponent before he start using mass removals or dropping bigger creatures, I think.

[Gui]

It's sad when he's just not going to cut it in Legacy. I really love the idea of this card. If he had been a 4/7 or something, I would play it, but Goyf is the main reason he will never be worth all that mana. Well, that and getting mangled by Goblins, merfolk, and Zoo, while you build up that 4.

I'll play it in Standard though. He's pretty damned amazing there. Virtually unkillable.

I agree that goyf is a faster creature and helps stalling aggro opponents better, and by no means I think goyf will be overriden by this creature. What I'm considering is that a deck can trust him as a pretty safe kill condition in order to run few cards with that function (beating) and design the rest of the deck in a controlish fashion, even if it include creatures.
It's one of the safest kill conditions I can imagine for a control deck, you don't have to worry about counters, about point removals, and he can regen against a feel mass removals. and actually block a rogue creature that enters after him due to lack of answer, and stall him until you find an answer.

I agree this isn't "Wow, the next tarmogoyf, will play everydeck!" but it's a good card and could very well see play, IMO.

[practical joke]

I'd prefer to build a GW(b) equipment list.

vials, avengers, confidants, removal, a few swords, discard, stoneforge, tarmosluts, 2 thrun and some other fillers.

[FieryBalrog]

The fact that he can't beat past Goyf is the biggest knock against him and I think it cripples his chances. He hits all the other right notes for 4 mana. But however unkillable he is, investing 4 mana into something that has to sit and stare at your opponents 4/5 2-mana wall is not that great. For 2GG you could be searching out a 10/10 protection from everything.

[(nameless one)]

Does anyone remember a deck called Good Stuff? I think it was an extended deck 2 years back, and it ran stuff that had built in protection (Troll Ascetic, Silhana Ledgewalker) along with some ramp, equpiment, and pump spells.

Is a mid-range mono-green aggro build even feasible in legacy? Just for discussion's sake, consider this list:

2x Thran, the Last Troll
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Slippery Bogle
3x Vexing Shusher
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Rancor
4x Berserk
3x Seal of Strength
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
21 Forests

Needs more Tarmogoyf.

[Xiang]

Does anyone remember a deck called Good Stuff? I think it was an extended deck 2 years back, and it ran stuff that had built in protection (Troll Ascetic, Silhana Ledgewalker) along with some ramp, equpiment, and pump spells.

Is a mid-range mono-green aggro build even feasible in legacy? Just for discussion's sake, consider this list:

2x Thran, the Last Troll
4x Troll Ascetic
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Slippery Bogle
3x Vexing Shusher
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Rancor
4x Berserk
3x Seal of Strength
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
21 Forests


You mean g/w Goodstuff from the Invasion to Lorwyn times?
That deck was horrible even to bad for extended. Oo

[nedleeds]

Needs more Tarmogoyf.

needs more ratchet bomb. this guy is built not for a berserkndeck but for a rock'ish deck where his 4 cc saves him from ratchet bombs, deeds, etc.

[The Big Ragu]

Too slow for Zoo, and in many other cases you'd be better off casting a Natural Order for Progenitus. I really like the card, and I'm gonna pick one up for my binder, but I doubt he'll ever see play in Legacy.

[DragoFireheart]

- He's immune to all spot removal.
- He's immune to countermagic and Counterbalance.
- He's immune to Firespout and EE.
- While he can't get through a Goyf, a Goyf or a KotR will never get through him.

This guy would work nicely in some kind of control deck as a finisher. Some of you are scoffing at him, but he is built in such a way that he fixes many of the problems that Troll Ascetic had (too small, could still be countered).

I'll try to pick up a couple of him.

[Lemnear]

I guess you miss the fact that, back in original Mirrodin, the Power-Level of creatures was much lower than today. So Troll Ascetic was a 3/2 shrouting monster-blocker and a Sword-Carrier (Next set it was Jitte too) which nearly kills every creature without evasion. But....

What was the best creature Ascetic had to face? Wild Mongrel? Exalted Angel (He cannot race or block)?

Between Thrun and Ascetic were 4 years of creature-pushing blocks and a rise of general power-level for this type of cards and all Troll Ascetic gained was +1 mana, +1/+2, Legandary and counter proove. I don't think you can judge the Cards potential without that fact's. And facing those I'm not impressed.

[SilverGreen]

This. Only getting a 4/4 for four mana is not so hot in this format. For example, Vendillion Clique also gets around Counterbalance (most of the time) and evades Goyf.No other creature lesser than 6/7 will play this format anymore. Goyf is the ultimate threat and answer, for everything that'll see print from now to forever.

Nice people that only know how to play Magic with their Tarmogoyfes backed up by FoWs. That's the kind of lazy speech that thickens the Banned List and that hinders the format to flow smootly.

But, bah! It's old, old talk. Didn't change in the past, and won't change in the future. People will remain clutch to their last week technology and remain complaining about the stagnancy of the format and about Wizard's disregard and blah blah blah. That's the way the things are and will always be. We're the Legacy community, after all.

[Gui]

You mean, the same legacy community that stated Tarmogoyf was just another creature to handle, and let Counterbalance + Top as a tier 2 strategy for years as a backup plan for Threshold decks, and that once discussed whether Flash + Hulk was a good combo or not? Legacy community doesn't impress me that much... xD

[DragoFireheart]

You mean, the same legacy community that stated Tarmogoyf was just another creature to handle, and let Counterbalance + Top as a tier 2 strategy for years as a backup plan for Threshold decks, and that once discussed whether Flash + Hulk was a good combo or not? Legacy community doesn't impress me that much... xD


tl;dr: Just because the majority believes something doesn't make it so. (Fallacy of the majority).

[steveo356]

While thrun is defenently not tarmogoyf i think there are many situatuations where he makes goyf look bad. I mean he doesnt just auto-add himself in our current aggro decks or even our control decks. It's true alone he will not push through a goyf, but other than that hes still going to be a beefy blocker till you find an answer as your oponent will under most circumstances not be able to remove him from play. For anyone who has ever tried to equip or enchant a creature only to have it blasted out from under you wasting valuable tempo or card advantage, thrun will be there. he will always be a consistant threat and answer blue decks are realy pressed against a wall once you play him. I think hes being underated quite possibly because hes beinmg put into the wrong role. he isnt fast but hes solid

[FieryBalrog]

Not getting through Goyf is huge though. If it weren't for that, he would be a great sideboard card for Big Zoo/Rock to bring in vs all the 4-color Counterbalance decks running around, since they have no other way to deal with him, and he would have brought inevitability (lol, Jace!). He might still see a little play (with equips for example) but not making it through a Goyf - by turn 4 with a creature deck in the game, Goyf is 4/5 barring strange situations- means he's going to be far more limited than I'd like. He was never going to be more than a sideboard card though, he's not very good in too many matchups (vs tribal/aggro/combo they just don't care about your 4 mana 4/4).

BTW he still dies to Perish and Retribution of the Meek, so there are SOME answers for control decks.


While thrun is defenently not tarmogoyf i think there are many situatuations where he makes goyf look bad. I mean he doesnt just auto-add himself in our current aggro decks or even our control decks. It's true alone he will not push through a goyf, but other than that hes still going to be a beefy blocker till you find an answer as your oponent will under most circumstances not be able to remove him from play.

If you're paying 4 mana for a "beefy blocker" who also requires 2 mana a turn, you've got some problems with your deck construction...