[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[rlesko]

FTK - Flametongue Kavu? He seems to have fallen out of favor. I'm not sure why.

[Ace/Homebrew]

FTK - Flametongue Kavu? He seems to have fallen out of favor. I'm not sure why.
Flametongue Kavu vs Fire Imp

I'm more interested in sparking a debate than I am in expressing a preference.*

What does FtK kill that Fire Imp can't? The format is mostly X/2s.
They both die to pretty much the same stuff, but FImp costs :1: less.



*I lied, I prefer Fire Imp. :tongue:

[frogger42]

Flametongue Kavu vs Fire Imp

I'm more interested in sparking a debate than I am in expressing a preference.*

What does FtK kill that Fire Imp can't? The format is mostly X/2s.
They both die to pretty much the same stuff, but FImp costs :1: less.



*I lied, I prefer Fire Imp. :tongue:

This is an excellent point. But there are a lotta rando stuff out there - Painter's Servants that may need to go, maybe buffed-up Lords of Atlantis. Monastery Mentors prolly can't reach past the 4 dmg on your turn, either. For one more mana, FTK can clear a lot more of the random stuff out, plus it's a serious finisher.
(And Batterskull Germs, too. If you want something more typical to find.)

But Fire Imp is still pretty good, I'll admit, and definitely warrants a discussion. I just feel for 1 more mana, you get double the whammy.

I just tested against my friend's rogue Death and Taxes. I figure it was the hardest MU I'd have on me, and a few notes: Mother of Runes is a beast. (I'd imagine TNN would be almost as bad, maybe a bit easier to deal with.) All my removal is Sorcery-speed, yikes. And also every game my opponent had a basic Plains out, so Mooning him wasn't great; Chalice was a bit more effective a prison piece, mostly on the play, not always great. Equipment, esp Jitte and SoFI are a nightmare against this list. And Sarkhan is about impossible to play through a Thalia, esp with my own Moon out making my double-lands Mountains. Still, with this rough list, I took maybe 1/4- 1/3 of the games, in a really, really awful MU. I'm sure BUG and the Delver variants are much, much easier to smash in, considering their greedy manabases.

Just some thoughts! Thanks for the ideas, I'm definitely not up-to-date on all the red prison/control pieces I should consider for this.

[Esper3k]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=184600&type=card

[The Crow's Eye]

Flametongue Kavu vs Fire Imp

I'm more interested in sparking a debate than I am in expressing a preference.*

What does FtK kill that Fire Imp can't? The format is mostly X/2s.
They both die to pretty much the same stuff, but FImp costs :1: less.



*I lied, I prefer Fire Imp. :tongue:

I lean more towards FTK, though never more than 2 in the deck. They die to the same things, but I like that FTK gets closer to putting my opponents to 0. I also usually run 11 Mountains main, so that might factor in me hitting 2RR as needed. I can see where the lower cost and evasion would be handy, but I'm more into getting them dead quick. :wink:

My current "Semester's Over, Rotations Starting, IDGAF" rig:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Avaricious Dragon
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Moltensteel Dragon

2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker

4 Draconic Roar
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Anarchy
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Trinisphere

[Ace/Homebrew]

Draconic Roar looks great there! :wink:
Don't forget Moltensteel Dragon cannot imprint under Chrome Mox... Something to consider when sideboarding in any of your 10 colorless cards.

[frogger42]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=184600&type=card

Haha, I don't think Anarchy will be castable (in time) vs a Thalia on board. But I was thinking Pyrokinesis would be AMAZING in the SB. And a lot more flexible.

@ Crow's Eye - I'm not a huge fan of the 4-drops you run. I think it's a high amount, at 10 (I run 8, and I still feel that's a bit high), doesn't capitalize on your Seething Songs, and they're all vanilla finishers, none of them do any prison work (though Avaricious Dragon does add extra oomph to your gameplan). I know you like your Dragon-bolt card, and are kinda forced to lay heavy into the dragons to get it to work... but is it necessary? I think Pyrokinesis is better, it can kill many more dudes (and you're more concerned with getting board control with a prison deck, anyway, not extra burn damage). I think the gameplan should aim more toward controlling the board as much as you can, while dropping threats. The more you jam down "Need to Force" threats, the more your opponent will stretch their Forces - stuff like Fire Imp, FTK, will still net you board control even if your opponent can get normal removal going, and in certain situations, are "need to Force" threats.

Avaricious Dragon is a good consideration; even though it dies to Swords, it's still a "must answer right away" kind of threat, or it boosts you really hard. Arti-Dragon and even Regent are all fairly answerable with Swords / Terminus / perhaps other removal without giving you any card advantage, board control, more tangible gains (other than a bit of damage from a Regent trigger). Even a "finisher" like Rabblemaster - 1 less mana, splashable, can net extra tokens even if it dies - feels a lot more efficient. Just my two cents.

EDIT - Other removal might include Jace TMS, Liliana, maybe recurring Batterskull Germs. Liliana seems like a really really rough card to have to face with a slower deck.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yeah, I was going to suggest Fiery Confluence but figured you'd have trouble casting it too. :wink:
Although Confluence does solve the Sword/Jitte issue you had where Anarchy doesn't (besides being more useful outside the D&T matchup). Have you considered Sudden Demise?

Worth noting, Thunderbreak Regent is going to kill any Jace that tries to bounce it, flies over a majority of D&T creatures (and I believe many D&T players board out some number of Flickerwisps against use because of the :w::w: in its casting cost) and does not die to SoFaI triggers/Jitte counters. It is also a formidable threat turn 2 or 3, which is entirely doable in this deck.

Rabblemaster is also a terrible card when facing an opponent's Batterskull. It basically reads "Your opponent gains 4 life during your turn in addition to the 4 they gain during their turn."



Edit - Cave-In is also a card.

[frogger42]

Worth noting, Thunderbreak Regent is going to kill any Jace that tries to bounce it, flies over a majority of D&T creatures (and I believe many D&T players board out some number of Flickerwisps against use because of the :w::w: in its casting cost) and does not die to SoFaI triggers/Jitte counters. It is also a formidable threat turn 2 or 3, which is entirely doable in this deck.

Rabblemaster is also a terrible card when facing an opponent's Batterskull. It basically reads "Your opponent gains 4 life during your turn in addition to the 4 they gain during their turn."


I think Cave-In sounds really great in the dragon version, where none of your dudeses die to it. Batterskull is a problem for Rabble-Rabble. My list is currently running 8 FTKs to clear the board for Rabble, though, and I can always just keep him a dead card in hand... then side him out. Rabble is AMAZING against DnT, because so many of their dudes have 1 - toughness. And if it dies to Thalia, who cares, it's a token. I played Rabble a little bit, and I think he's just so much better than the vanilla 4-drops, though you want removal / equip to make it super-effective. Just the occasional BSkull isn't reason enough to drop what I see as a much more efficient card.

I disagree on Flicker. It WRECKS our own Chalices. Any DnT player worth their salt will know that, and prolly side out other 3-drops, like Aven/Pegasus if they run them. I tend to side out Chalice against DnT, if there's anything I feel is better. It's a liability vs DnT.

Regent - it's got a totally passive ability. It doesn't affect the board whatsoever. And when it triggers - it only domes someone, doesn't generate CA (unless you're hitting a Planeswalker). Plus it's RR. Definitely not a fan of it.

EDIT - Sudden Demise vs Pyrokinesis will take testing. I think the instant-speed on Pyro might be super clutch, though (in resp to Equipping). And the fact I can T1 Pyro, like for a Mom.

EDIT 2 - Rabble-Rabble has to absolutely WRECK Liliana. I can't see any way Lil can deal with a Rabble. And from the style of this deck, I think Liliana is definitely the WORST planeswalker to face up against. You drop 1 dude a turn, she eats 1 dude. And her +1 is atrocious, too, because there's almost no Card Advantage / Filtering. I think she might be public enemy #1, she always has been for most of my other decklists.

[Sergi]

Maybe a better replacement for FTK could be Spitebellows

Easier to cast with evoke and also can kill eldrazis or gurmag anglers. Also for only one mana more ends with the oppenent faster once in field.

[frogger42]

Maybe a better replacement for FTK could be Spitebellows

Easier to cast with evoke and also can kill eldrazis or gurmag anglers. Also for only one mana more ends with the oppenent faster once in field.

Respectfully disagree. Spitebellows is only card advantage when it dies. FTK is right away. Also - it's 6 mana, which isn't really workable with a Blood Moon (Sarkhan + Thalia taxing is pretty undoable). And 1 toughness is pretty important, too - FTK needs to be double blocked by all the 1/1s, 1/2s in the format (Deathrite, SFM, Elves and rando-tokens).

I think Arc-Slogger might make it into my list. Maybe over Sakhan. It's a close call, though, and warrants playtesting.

[The Crow's Eye]

Arc Slogger...now there's some sweet nostalgia.

I'd rather play FTK and Pyrokinesis if I except big butts.

[Zupponn]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=184600&type=card

I love you.


Haha, I don't think Anarchy will be castable (in time) vs a Thalia on board. But I was thinking Pyrokinesis would be AMAZING in the SB. And a lot more flexible.

Many times it is. Remember, D&T is not an aggro deck, so it can take them a while to set up a kill quite often. Plus, with our mana acceleration, 5 mana can be obtained fairly easily.

Also, I run Pyrokinesis as well for a 3/2 Pyro/Anarchy split.

[Octopusman]

Played this last night. Went 2-1.

Main
Mountain 10
Seething Song 4
Trinisphere 4
Chalice of the Void 4
Blood Moon 4
Magus of the Moon 4
Sin Prodder 4
Goblin Dark-Dwellers 1
Stormbreath Dragon 3
Umezawa's Jitte 2
Goblin Rabblemaster 4
Ancient Tomb 4
City of Traitors 4
Chrome Mox 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4

Board
Ratchet Bomb 2
Anarchy 2
Phyrexian Revoker 3
Bonfire of the Damned 3
Faerie Macabre 2
Shattering Spree 3

R1 - 2-1 - TES
R1G1
Couldn't really figure out what he was on. I was set to get an early win with Rabblemaster but then found out he was on TES.
R1G2
I get chalices on 1 and 0. Name LED with Revoker. I can tell that he's tossing spells into my Chalice to get Threshold. I Faerie Macabre some of his grave away and get the win.
R1G3
Some combination of Chalice/Thrinisphere.

R2 - 2-1 - Jund
R2G1
I get the moon but he finds his Forest and cascades into Liliana. I get beat up by a Goyf and Bloodbraid.
R2G2
Get moon again. Get an early Chalice on 1 & 2. Ratchet bomb 2 Goyfs. Get there with a couple of Rabblemasters and Sin Prodder
Note: I had lethal 1 turn sooner because he didn't let me keep a Seething Song revealed by Prodder.
R2G3
Get moon again. Get an early Chalice on 1 & 2. Rabble gets in hard and Stormbreath wraps things up.
P.S. I made some incredibly boneheaded rules violations this round (i.e. forgetting to attack with Rabblemaster while I controlled 2, trying to use a sol land for 2 with Moon out). Appreciate my opponent for being a good sport while we sorted it out. Hey, even vets brain fart sometimes. :smile:

R3 - 1-2 - No Pox Pox
R3G1
Pretty sure I only won this game because I Landed a Rabblemaster immediately after he played Liliana after both of our hands were empty.
Turns out Rabblemaster is a boss vs. her.
R3G2
I'm a total moron and I run out a Stormbreath Dragon on turn 1 just to have him Innocent Blood it away.
R3G3
Again, I'm not making good decisions... at all. I board out all of my moons and don't bring in my Faerie Macabre.
He Sinkhole's my only red source after I play a Rabblemaster.
He gets Nether Spirit (dumped him with Liliana) and a Mishra's Factory. They eventually kill off all of the Rabblemaster tokens.
He Wastelands one of my Ancient Tombs (no Mountain ever again) and drops Nether Void.
I eventually tap Anicent Tomb and City of Traitors to play Chrome Mox. Feels bad. He gets a fifth land and Small Poxes Rabblemaster away. GG!

So, I am really enjoying this list. I didn't get the Song -> Dwellers -> Song -> Stormbreath nut draw this week but that's okay and having the possibility is definitely worth it. I didn't write about it but Jitte did give me a faster clock and caused problems in TES' math due to life gain possibility.
I saw a lot more of Sin Prodder this week (finally!) and he was fantastic. He did extra damage with trigger, gave card advantage when they're like... "uhhhhh, sure", menace was relevant to "get in there", and was good on defense too. He is a lightning rod for removal - which can be considered a plus (less decay for Chalice/Moon, etc). Very excited to keep playing with this card.

Unfortunately, Stormbreath was so good that I lament only running 3. I know that's the correct number, though. I've also never had Rabblemaster perform so well. Stunned. Enjoying the 4 Rabble/Prodder/Magus and 2 Jitte quite a bit with Stormbreaths to close out the game roughly on curve... whatever "curve" means for this deck.

I sorely miss Sword of War and Peace and Prophetic Flamespeaker due to being basically the fastest clock possible and the extra cards. If they print another card that is both a clock and a lock piece at 3CMC, I will certainly brew with them again... assuming that I don't completely fall in love with Sin Prodder (unknown at this point).

[MasterBlaster]

Your list is missing 16 cards. Share your secret tech, bud!

[Octopusman]

Your list is missing 16 cards. Share your secret tech, bud!

Whoops! Fixed.

[AEMarling]

I don't have too many games under my belt with Dragon Stompy, but I've practiced plenty of other decks in Legacy. From what I can see so far for Stompy, Pia and Kiran Nalaar might be the best 4-drop available, and I also like the inclusions of Phyrexian Revoker and equipment like Swords. All those combine in a more resilient threat suite than previous versions I've tried.

If you're interested in my still rather rough list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/22-10-15-NRx-dragon-stompy/

[Wichtelman]

Played this in a local legacy on thursday @prag before gp prag and went 4-0 beating 2 platin pro's... :tongue:

4x Thunderbreak Regent
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Prophetic Flamespeaker
4x Sin Prodder
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Umezawas Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Blood Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Sudden Shock
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Mountain

SB:
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Icy Manipulator
3x Shattering Spree
2x Pyrokinesis
3x Trinisphere
2x Scab-Clan Berserker

r1 - 2-1 - eldrazi - mitchell manders

r2 - 2-1 - eldrazi - igor panigada (also played against him on fri @trials and beat him)

r3 - 2-1 - shardless - lukas blohon

r4 - 2-0 - sultai delver - petr sochurek


actually would not play trinisphere again after like 20 competetive matches with it that weekend...

[Octopusman]

Pia and Kiran mentioned in back to back posts. Very interesting. Both running equipment.

@AE - Thanks for providing your list. The 1 of Gang looks interesting since it can buff the little guys. Curious to know your feelings on that and Avaricious Dragon.

@Wichtelman - Very cool. How are you liking Sin Prodder? Trinisphere has been very good to me recently. Would you be able to elaborate on your desire to remove it? Just not good in enough matchups?

[Wichtelman]

pia is really strong in matchups like shardless and can kill your opp if you are sitting behind ensnaring bridge or just push normally dead cards into lategame gas...

sin prodder was insane... actually it does not matter if you get the extra card or not... you see more cards = more gas...

i had some matchups for trini but Scab-Clan Berserker would have been stronger in all those games... the problem is it just slows the opp down and puts no clock on the table... on paper it seems good vs lets say elves or storm or burn but in reality they just wait 1-2 turns -> ignore or destroy it and you wasted resources... if they are mana screwed that trini matters you would win anyways...

[TLK]

Idk, as an avid stompy player, Trini is some decks' worst nightmare. Decks like Storm auto fold to it. I agree that sometimes it merely acts as a speed bump, but I've found that it grants you enough time to get pressure in play because of our mana accelerating lands. I can see both sides of the Trini debate.

[Wichtelman]

Decks like Storm auto fold to it.

that is not true but anyways i think it is more of a personal choice which hate you use for specific matchups...
same story with removal like pyrokinesis vs sudden demise and so on...
(also depending on your build and support)

[Octopusman]

pia is really strong in matchups like shardless and can kill your opp if you are sitting behind ensnaring bridge or just push normally dead cards into lategame gas...

sin prodder was insane... actually it does not matter if you get the extra card or not... you see more cards = more gas...

i had some matchups for trini but Scab-Clan Berserker would have been stronger in all those games... the problem is it just slows the opp down and puts no clock on the table... on paper it seems good vs lets say elves or storm or burn but in reality they just wait 1-2 turns -> ignore or destroy it and you wasted resources... if they are mana screwed that trini matters you would win anyways...

Very good. I've been enjoying Prodder too. Glad to see some empirical data to combat the theoretical hate on the card.

I like your comments regarding Trinisphere. I think I'll try Berserker and see how that goes.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Went 4-0 this week which felt good going into EE4 weekend! :laugh:
I went back to the Goblin version. The mana curve is higher than I am typically comfortable with, but it runs 2 additional mana sources.

10 Mountain
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Moggcatcher
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Settler
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Matron
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Sideboard:
3 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Fiery Confluence
2 Pillage
3 Sudden Shock

R1 Grixis Delver, 2-0
Game 2 he started to run away with 2 Pyromancers and cheap spells, but he let me untap a Moggcatcher. :wink:
Sharpshooter destroyed all his hard work.

R2 Colorless Eldrazi, 2-0
I have yet to lose a round to Eldrazi.

R3 Aggro Loam, 2-0
Opponent scooped to Blood Moon after only showing me a Tiaga.
Game 2 I found answers to whatever he tried. Revoker on DRS, Moon on turn 2, Settler targeting basic Forest, Tuktuk Scrapper destroying Mox Diamond.

R4 Miracles, 2-1
Game 2 I mulled to 5 but still put up a hell of a fight, keeping Revoker, Chalice, Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Mountain, with a Rabblemaster on top of my library. Things were even up until he established Venser/Karakas lock.
This build felt very strong against Miracles because most of the creatures can threaten a win by themselves. Cavern of Souls was nice to have as my opponent always found an early Counterbalance.

[ZTurgeon]

Went 4-0 this week which felt good going into EE4 weekend! :laugh:
I went back to the Goblin version. The mana curve is higher than I am typically comfortable with, but it runs 2 additional mana sources.

10 Mountain
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Moggcatcher
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Settler
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Matron
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Sideboard:
3 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Fiery Confluence
2 Pillage
3 Sudden Shock

R1 Grixis Delver, 2-0
Game 2 he started to run away with 2 Pyromancers and cheap spells, but he let me untap a Moggcatcher. :wink:
Sharpshooter destroyed all his hard work.

R2 Colorless Eldrazi, 2-0
I have yet to lose a round to Eldrazi.

R3 Aggro Loam, 2-0
Opponent scooped to Blood Moon after only showing me a Tiaga.
Game 2 I found answers to whatever he tried. Revoker on DRS, Moon on turn 2, Settler targeting basic Forest, Tuktuk Scrapper destroying Mox Diamond.

R4 Miracles, 2-1
Game 2 I mulled to 5 but still put up a hell of a fight, keeping Revoker, Chalice, Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Mountain, with a Rabblemaster on top of my library. Things were even up until he established Venser/Karakas lock.
This build felt very strong against Miracles because most of the creatures can threaten a win by themselves. Cavern of Souls was nice to have as my opponent always found an early Counterbalance.

The Goblin Version is really strong against miracles. You don't need to overextend into terminus because of the "army in a can" nature of the deck and your normal disruption is very good against them, even if in weird ways. I know I have mentioned it before, but Blood Moon is incredibly good against miracles, specifically as the goblin version. They do not have enough plains to play their deck well with a blood moon out and taking away fetches makes brainstorms and top bad cards. When they can't churn through to find what they need, the deck is surprisingly fragile.

You may want to try Pia and Kiren in the deck. They are expensive, but they are the best card to play against delver decks that isn't just a removal spell.

[AEMarling]

Wichtelman, I like the look of your deck. I also think additional Scab-Clan Berserker's do have some merit over Trinisphere, but the problem with that creature and all those that cost RR is that sometimes we don't have the sources to cast them. For that reason I wonder if you've tried Instigator Gang. They play well with tokens (and Ensnaring Bridge), and, most importantly, they cost only one red. I'm tempted to take out all my non Kiran 4-drops for them. I suspect the Planeswalkers are better against Miracles, but maybe if I have 4 equipment I'll be strong enough in that matchup.

[Wichtelman]

well trini was certainly not dead for me except if drawn multiples...
as i said all depends on your meta and how your list can support said cards...

i dont like the gang cuz it seems to be overkill -> really strong if you are already winning...
my approach is more about -> what happens if you can not lock your opp and the race begins...

not sure yet about the miracles matchup cuz the lists vary a lot... aswell as the impact of bloodmoon or cards like sudden shock + sulfur elemental...
(miracles is not prepared to handle ALL your creatures if they create value like prodder or flamespeaker)

i have cut the goblin rabblemasters cuz i expected a lot of random blockers and his combo with jitte is not so strong but still think he is really hot...
also thought about cutting thunderbreak regent but this could be skewed by the matchups i had...

tbh im not happy with my sb and atm try to add some ratchet bombs...

[MGB]

Has anyone thought of building a R/W tomb+city deck with 4 Nahiri and 1 Emrakul? Nahiri is an amazing finisher and control tool and I'm wondering if you can build a prison-esque or stompy-type deck in Legacy with her.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Has anyone thought of building a R/W tomb+city deck with 4 Nahiri and 1 Emrakul? Nahiri is an amazing finisher and control tool and I'm wondering if you can build a prison-esque or stompy-type deck in Legacy with her.
The idea has legs, but I cannot imagine a list including Nahiri functioning in a manner similar to any version of Blood Moon Stompy...
Adding any color (or even C) other than red under a Blood Moon is extremely difficult, to the extent that if your win-con is Nahiri/Emrakul, you probably shouldn't play Moons. And if you aren't playing Moons, then you're not playing Blood Moon Stompy. You do still get CotV and Trinisphere as lock pieces, and :w: opens you up to all sorts of sideboarding options, but the primary directive (of landing Blood Moon ASAP) is completely different.

But is rushing Nahiri out with sol-lands and fast mana even good?
Quickest you can get Nahiri out this way is turn 1 or 2. And doing so guts your hand (which is bad if Nahiri is answered). So the quickest you can ult her is turn 3 or 4. Show and Tell decks can swing with an Emrakul by turn 3/4, and they get protection and invest less resources so recovery is less of a struggle...

And if your turn 1 play is Ensnaring Bridge (which is really the only thing you could play turn 1 to try and protect Nahiri), followed by T2 Nahiri, you'll never get to swing with Emrakul because of the bridge.

[AEMarling]

How many red cards do you suppose we need to support 4 Chrome Mox? And do you think 4 Chrome is worthwhile?

[Ace/Homebrew]

How many red cards do you suppose we need to support 4 Chrome Mox?
About 26.


And do you think 4 Chrome is worthwhile?
Yes?
I'm not sure I understand this question. Can you rephrase it?

[AEMarling]

I meant, do you think the restrictions the Chrome Mox puts on the deck and the diminishing returns in multiples is worthwhile? I have seen some lists run only 3. I will say they do synergize with my Pia and Kiran.

My next question is, does anyone have a sense for how many RR cards the deck can comfortably play? Meaning like Pia and Kiran. My guess is between 4-6.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Do you think the restrictions the Chrome Mox puts on the deck and the diminishing returns in multiples is worthwhile?
Against an unknown opponent game 1, your goal is to resolve a Blood Moon. Every turn you delay this you are giving your opponent a chance to find a basic. With 4 Simian Spirit Guide and 4 Chrome Mox, you have a very good chance to generate the required :2::r: to accomplish this. It becomes much more difficult if you start cutting fast mana. I have played 3 Chrome Mox/1 Lotus Petal in the past and been happy with that configuration. Although I did move back toward a full set of Mox.


I have seen some lists run only 3.
Most lists running 3 are overloading on land and typically playing some Cavern of Souls. These lists are hedging their bets that 'an increase in mana consistency' will outweigh 'consistently landing a turn 1 lock piece' over the course of several games.


My next question is, does anyone have a sense for how many RR cards the deck can comfortably play? Meaning like Pia and Kiran. My guess is between 4-6.
You could easily go to 7/8 without much of a problem.

[ZTurgeon]

I meant, do you think the restrictions the Chrome Mox puts on the deck and the diminishing returns in multiples is worthwhile? I have seen some lists run only 3. I will say they do synergize with my Pia and Kiran.

My next question is, does anyone have a sense for how many RR cards the deck can comfortably play? Meaning like Pia and Kiran. My guess is between 4-6.

It's about where they are, not how many. At the 4 drop, you have a pretty good shot of casting them ahead of schedule. At the 3 slot, the sol lands don't cast them faster which leads to problems.

[Koby]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=184600&type=card

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pc/108.jpg

This one is even better against D&T and has application vs Miracles w/ Mentors, or even Maverick (marginal).

[ZTurgeon]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/ouhtebrpjwxcnw5_EMN/en_uJGVW5UTRn.png

Why Hello Rabblemaster 5-8. Nice to meet you.

[Rad_Fishy]

I was coming to post that.

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/hanweirbattlements.html

This is the other half.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I was anxiously awaiting the full reveal for Hanweir, the Writhing Township since the card # implied the front side would be red. I am disappointed the land requires an activation in order to flip rather than just requiring both pieces be present at a specific period of time. Oh well, my short lived dreams of crushing it with a living town have ended. :frown:

It is pretty safe to say assembling the township is too slow for Legacy. Additionally, Blood Moon is a nonbo with Hanweir Battlements...
I am pleased Hanweir Garrison is playable by itself!

[Octopusman]

The card's not exactly weak, but I'm not sold on it. I'm hoping someone else will test it. :tongue:
This does:
0, 4, then 6, then 8. 18 Across 4 turns.

Rabble is:
1, 6, 8, 10. 25 Across 4 turns or 15 across 3 turns.

Garrison makes more tokens but I like that Rabble can pressure Lilliana immediately.

Sin Prodder is:
0, 3, 3, 3. 9 Across 4 turns with, in general potentially another 4.5+ damage. Maybe card draw and light evasion.

It's going to be hard to compare the Garrison vs. Prodder but I think I will stick with Prodder for now. The evasion is very good and once the Garrison goes down, the token production stops... can't end the game as quickly as Rabble.

Let's say we have both Garrison and Rabble.

T1 lock piece.
T2 Garrison
T3 Rabble - swing for 5.
T4 - swing for 12.

That puts them at 3 already (maybe 2 or 1 depending on how fetching goes).

This also means after combat on T4 we have Garrison, Rabble, 2 Goblins, and 4 humans. That's 8 creatures and that means if half get through on T5 that's game. If they kill Garrison and Rabble, they would still need 3 blockers and that is dependent on them resolving 3 threats while under either a trinisphere or a moon. Or they Terminus.

Or
T1 lock piece.
T2 Rabble - swing for 1.
T3 Garrison - swing for 6.
T4 Swing for 12. 19 Damage or lethal if they fetched. 7 Creatures on board.

Let's see if we have Rabble and Prodder
T1 lock piece.
T2 Rabble - swing for 1.
T3 Prodder - Swing for 6.
T4 Swing for 11. That's 18 already an probably a guaranteed extra card or they will die to Sin Prodder trigger half of the time.
[Edit] 5 creatures on board, 1 with Menace.

Not much a difference. Seems the trade of is card advantage/possible explosive damage with Prodder for a lot of tokens which can still push through for a win if the producer is removed.

Hmmmm.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Mr. Garrison's biggest upside is surviving Pyroclasm.

[Octopusman]

Mr. Garrison's biggest upside is surviving Pyroclasm.

Still no thumbs up or "like" feature on this site?

[ZTurgeon]

Mr. Garrison's biggest upside is surviving Pyroclasm.

This is the biggest upside. The fact that it crashes into Thalia and Shardless is a big deal. And it can't be ambushed by snap caster and containment priest, which is always a rabblemaster issue.

[Wichtelman]

@octopusman nice data but it becomes a little bit more complicated if you consider stuff like turn 1 garrison and if your opp actually plays something...
(cuz of basic lands or if he is on the play)

pretty common that opp leads with basic into drs or has the force for your lock piece... yea garisson can attack into a lot of stuff and it becomes better if you play eq's or removal... so the question would be can you overwhelm your opp without lock piece with turn 1 garrison turn 2 garrison or anything as follow up... (same story for any creature)

i think it is decent but i will test it anyways... =P

[Octopusman]

@octopusman nice data but it becomes a little bit more complicated if you consider stuff like turn 1 garrison and if your opp actually plays something...
(cuz of basic lands or if he is on the play)

pretty common that opp leads with basic into drs or has the force for your lock piece... yea garisson can attack into a lot of stuff and it becomes better if you play eq's or removal... so the question would be can you overwhelm your opp without lock piece with turn 1 garrison turn 2 garrison or anything as follow up... (same story for any creature)

i think it is decent but i will test it anyways... =P

Yes true true, but I think the general rule is that you mulligan if you don't have a T1 lockpiece. I only open with a threat if my hands end up being terrible (mull to 5 for example).

[Wichtelman]

Yes true true, but I think the general rule is that you mulligan if you don't have a T1 lockpiece. I only open with a threat if my hands end up being terrible (mull to 5 for example).

well if you play vs shardless an amazing creature heavy hand can destroy them if their plan is basic into basic to ignore the lock piece...
if opp starts with t1 plains into vial do you drop a moon or a creature t1?
there are several scenarios like this and specially if we are on the draw...
(g1 on the play vs unknown ya true mull to lock piece)

[Octopusman]

well if you play vs shardless an amazing creature heavy hand can destroy them if their plan is basic into basic to ignore the lock piece...
if opp starts with t1 plains into vial do you drop a moon or a creature t1?
there are several scenarios like this and specially if we are on the draw...
(g1 on the play vs unknown ya true mull to lock piece)

Good call and totally agree.

[Sergi]

Also garrison survives Thalia, where rabblemaster is terrible.

[nedleeds]

its a human, not a goblin that's why its awesome ...

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/125/398/200/283/636028821187881873.png

How many 5/5's does it take to make the hellbent strategy viable again?

[Parcher]

Turn one; Tomb, Mox, Seething Song, Raiders, Lupine.
Turn two; Rabblemaster, pitch, Swing for 11!
Turn three; What's Terminus do?

Hellbent fled Heaven upon the Miracles' birth.

[Octopusman]

Turn one; Tomb, Mox, Seething Song, Raiders, Lupine.
Turn two; Rabblemaster, pitch, Swing for 11!
Turn three; What's Terminus do?

Hellbent fled Heaven upon the Miracles' birth.



This makes me sad.

[ZTurgeon]

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/stormkirkmystic.jpg

Stormkirk Mystic
2R
Creature - Vampire Horror
Trample

When Stormkirk Mystic deals combat damage to a player, exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may cast that card.

Madness 1R

3/2

Looks like we get another tool. Similar to Prophetic Flamespeaker but easier to cast. If another good enough Madness card shows up, the Hellbent version might be playable again.

[potatodavid]

I went 2-2 at casual Legacy last night.

Goblins build but a couple mainboard differences

I ran 3 mainboard ensaring bridges because everyone in my meta has been playing show and tell recently. & instead of the equipment package I started running Purphoros>

Beat Grixis Delver, & Miracles

lost to Sneak and Show and MaskNought.

[AEMarling]

I'm considering Viashiono Heretic for my sideboard.

2R, 1/3
1R, Tap: Destroy target artifact. Viashino Heretic deals damage to that artifact's controller equal to the artifact's converted mana cost.

Also, I'm considering how many Trinispheres I should play. Currently 2 main, one board. I don't want to draw them against Eldrazi, but otherwise they're very strong.

[Wichtelman]

Stormkirk Mystic
2R
Creature - Vampire Horror
Trample

When Stormkirk Mystic deals combat damage to a player, exile the top card of your library. Until end of turn, you may cast that card.

Madness 1R

3/2

Looks like we get another tool. Similar to Prophetic Flamespeaker but easier to cast. If another good enough Madness card shows up, the Hellbent version might be playable again.

hm seems to be ok as it tramples over drs or mother and such stuff... gets stronger with removal and eq aswell...
the hellbent version is bad cuz pit dragon + gathan riders are bad but thats just my opinion looking at the current meta...



I ran 3 mainboard ensaring bridges because everyone in my meta has been playing show and tell recently.

also tried this and tbh out of lets say 10 matches you win maybe 1 if your opp is not playing horrible...
(you need it in your first 7-9 cards + they are not playing a solution to it)
still not sure about this matchup if i want to ignore it or try to lucksack with random hate like confusion in the ranks or ashen riders and such stuff...


Also, I'm considering how many Trinispheres I should play. Currently 2 main, one board. I don't want to draw them against Eldrazi, but otherwise they're very strong.

hm i have cut them for bom strasbourg and really never missed them... if i think about matchups and how i could lose them there is just storm for trini but as i said thats personal taste...

went 5-3 in strasbourg and lost to stuff like mono black pox (t1 mox swamp hymn t2 hymn t3 lili GG) and show and tell - dreamhalls so whatever i gues...

[Zupponn]

I don't know man. 3sphere is just way too good for me to even consider cutting. It turns off cards like FoW or Daze or the entierty of decks like Burn or Storm. Oftentimes 3sphere is my protection so that my Moon effect doesn't get countered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Eldrazi is just about the only top tier deck that doesn't have a rough time against 3sphere and that just loses to Moon effect.

[Wichtelman]

I don't know man. 3sphere is just way too good for me to even consider cutting. It turns off cards like FoW or Daze or the entierty of decks like Burn or Storm.

will not say everybody should cut trini but my view of the metagame and how various cards impact matchups is probably just really different...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Eldrazi is just about the only top tier deck that doesn't have a rough time against 3sphere and that just loses to Moon effect.

well shardless, d&t and lands also do not care that much but thats not the point... my list just does not need it to keep it short...

[Zupponn]

well shardless, d&t and lands also do not care that much but thats not the point... my list just does not need it to keep it short...
I'll give you lands of those three even though they still run crop rotation, gamble, loam. Shardless Agent's cascade gets shut off by 3sphere and so does FoW which are both large hits they would be forced to take. D&T also can have issues against 3sphere unless they get a Vial out, but if that Vial is coming down Turn 3, then it might as well be GG many games.

If you don't like 3sphere, then don't run it, but I still feel that it is far stronger than you give it credit for.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Congratulations Rob! 4th out of 772 players.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105147


Creatures (24)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Settler
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Moggcatcher
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Lands (20)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors

Spells (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
3 Fiery Confluence

[Octopusman]

Congratulations Rob! 4th out of 772 players.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105147


Creatures (24)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Settler
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Moggcatcher
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Lands (20)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors

Spells (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
3 Fiery Confluence

Hey! Very cool! Interested to see if there's any movement on these cards after this placing.


Side note, I'm probably going to be testing the human rabblemaster. I'll probably swap 2 prodder for two of them and see how it feels. Right now I am leaning towards prodder. The extra damage and menace have really helped finish games faster. Though garrison might be better vs. Lilliana's, pox, which sees play in my meta.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Hey! Very cool! Interested to see if there's any movement on these cards after this placing.


Side note, I'm probably going to be testing the human rabblemaster. I'll probably swap 2 prodder for two of them and see how it feels. Right now I am leaning towards prodder. The extra damage and menace have really helped finish games faster. Though garrison might be better vs. Lilliana's, pox, which sees play in my meta.
I actually 'tested' Mr. Garrison the last few weeks since it was spoiled. I ran a Human Tribal list and made mental notes when I played Rabblemaster of how Garrison would have affected the game.

On the plus side, Cavern of Souls naming Human is huge.
It did not come up, but the +0/+1 stats on Garrison keep him out of Pun Fire and Pyroclasm range... which normally destroys tribal builds of this deck.

On the minus side, Rabblemaster is just plain quicker.
I won a game against Miracles thanks to Turn 1 Rabble, Turn 2 Rabble. He died with a Terminus on top. If Rabbles had been Garrisons, he'd have survived my initial outburst.


I'm most excited now to use Garrison alongside Rabblemaster. Rabble is just too good to cut...

[square_two]

I actually 'tested' Mr. Garrison the last few weeks since it was spoiled. I ran a Human Tribal list and made mental notes when I played Rabblemaster of how Garrison would have affected the game.

On the plus side, Cavern of Souls naming Human is huge.
It did not come up, but the +0/+1 stats on Garrison keep him out of Pun Fire and Pyroclasm range... which normally destroys tribal builds of this deck.

On the minus side, Rabblemaster is just plain quicker.
I won a game against Miracles thanks to Turn 1 Rabble, Turn 2 Rabble. He died with a Terminus on top. If Rabbles had been Garrisons, he'd have survived my initial outburst.


I'm most excited now to use Garrison alongside Rabblemaster. Rabble is just too good to cut...

Ace I assume these were the humans tested? Trying to get a definite list of human cards here.

Scab-Clan Berserker
Magus of the Moon
Hanweir Garrison
Prophetic Flamespeaker
Pia and Kiran Nalaar

and for other consideration, the human/werewolves
Geier Reach Bandit
Hanweir Watchkeep
Instigator Gang

[Ace/Homebrew]

More or less! :wink:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Hanweir Garrison (Goblin Rabblemaster)
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Avalanche Riders

Sideboard
4 Scab-Clan Berserker


Also Humans:
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Rakka Mar
Dualcaster Mage
Magus of the Wheel

[frogger42]

Hanweir Garrison vs Rabblemaster: I put up a version pre-Garrison list with Rabblemaster. I think you want to lean more on removal (I used FTK and Sarkhan Dragonspeaker) to let Rabblemaster get through, since you don't have many options to hold back with the Rabble. But I probably prefer Garrison myself, just playstyle, because it's more flexible, you don't always have to swing unprofitably.

Just a side note - Rabble is SOOOO GOOOD vs Liliana, esp one that's at 1 Loyalty. That just plain rocks. Haste in for the win.

[Zupponn]

Just curious, but why are you guys looking to build Human Tribal Red Stompy? What advantage is there to running all humans? I just don't see the point. If there's not some sweet tribal synergy going on then just run the best creatures available.

[square_two]

Just curious, but why are you guys looking to build Human Tribal Red Stompy? What advantage is there to running all humans? I just don't see the point. If there's not some sweet tribal synergy going on then just run the best creatures available.

The only reason I know of is Cavern. Making all of your threats (and in the case of Magus, a lock) uncounterable can be huge in certain matchups. The only non-Cavern red cards you might need are Blood Moons and any removal such as Sudden Shock, so the disadvantage of more non-red mana sources shouldn't be too much.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yeah, just Cavern of Souls.

I've used it in Moggcatcher builds and the mix between Humans and Goblins made it sub-optimal.

[Wichtelman]

Just curious, but why are you guys looking to build Human Tribal Red Stompy? What advantage is there to running all humans? I just don't see the point. If there's not some sweet tribal synergy going on then just run the best creatures available.

well probably also cuz most of the best creatures are human... there is just one dragon i would consider to play but not in the current meta... ya and as others said caverns if you want to play that...

[Zupponn]

Ok. I figured Cavern was the main thing and just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything else.

The human version could be more of an aggressive route to be able to go, but the loss in flexibility when compared to Moggcatcher builds might not be worth it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Ok. I figured Cavern was the main thing and just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything else.

The human version could be more of an aggressive route to be able to go, but the loss in flexibility when compared to Moggcatcher builds might not be worth it.
I agree. Only testing will tell. :laugh:

We are also approaching a critical mass of relevant :2::r: drops.

Magus of the Moon
Goblin Rabblemaster
Hanweir Garrison
Sin Prodder

My dream creature for this deck would be a :2::r: Mountainwalker with pushed combat stats.

[Zupponn]

I have a feeling that with R&Ds insistence that they are never going to print protection from a color on a creature again that something like Mountainwalk falls within the same category. Would be a nice gift though.

In other news, yes, 2R-Dudes.deck could be a thing someday. We could actually be tier 1 then! :tongue:

[Jon]

Played my version of Stompy yesterday at a Win a Mox here Locally in Marrietta GA at Giga Bites. I started with nedleeds build from a few months ago - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11059&d=262966&f=LE
Based on his suggestions and thoughts I managed to come up with this sweet pile :

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/a08d6889452c5252867c14d52e2f6b1e.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/3542795d984f78ac80c64a37bf4ac902.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/c1ef15647f731f6df68ac1a9c63da194.jpg

If anyone is interested I will talk about my card choices. Here were my match ups'

Round 1 - Bye
Round 2 - Patel - UW Stoneblade Miracles, 2-1
Round 3 - Hon - 4 Color Delver - 2-1
Round 4 - Schnider - UR Delver 1-2 (Camera Match)
Round 5 - Ape - Show and Ape, 0-2 , Ready to hang myself, Losing to show and tell it cancer.
Round 6 - Bauer - Shardless, 2-1 (Claimed Shardless was favored against Moon Stompy, Blood moon told him otherwise)
Round 7 - Hames - Infect, 2-1 , I had a better chance to T8 so friend Scooped me.

Ended up 9th on Breakers , Think I was out regardless, Needed one match in front of me to unintentionally draw. Didnt happen.


I cut bridges on my SB because playing them would make me a coward, and we aint one of dem boyz.
I think the deck is fine. Tons of mulligans like every shitty stompy deck.

[Octopusman]

Played my version of Stompy yesterday at a Win a Mox here Locally in Marrietta GA at Giga Bites. I started with nedleeds build from a few months ago - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11059&d=262966&f=LE
Based on his suggestions and thoughts I managed to come up with this sweet pile :

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/a08d6889452c5252867c14d52e2f6b1e.jpg


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/3542795d984f78ac80c64a37bf4ac902.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160724/c1ef15647f731f6df68ac1a9c63da194.jpg

If anyone is interested I will talk about my card choices. Here were my match ups'

Round 1 - Bye
Round 2 - Patel - UW Stoneblade Miracles, 2-1
Round 3 - Hon - 4 Color Delver - 2-1
Round 4 - Schnider - UR Delver 1-2 (Camera Match)
Round 5 - Ape - Show and Ape, 0-2 , Ready to hang myself, Losing to show and tell it cancer.
Round 6 - Bauer - Shardless, 2-1 (Claimed Shardless was favored against Moon Stompy, Blood moon told him otherwise)
Round 7 - Hames - Infect, 2-1 , I had a better chance to T8 so friend Scooped me.

Ended up 9th on Breakers , Think I was out regardless, Needed one match in front of me to unintentionally draw. Didnt happen.


I cut bridges on my SB because playing them would make me a coward, and we aint one of dem boyz.
I think the deck is fine. Tons of mulligans like every shitty stompy deck.

Cool list! Sorry to hear about barely missing T8.

Did you ever Recruiter for Garrison? How did Garrison fare in general? Can you think of any games where having an extra token (i.e. 2nd attack) mattered or how it fared versus how Rabblemaster might have in the same scenarios?

[Jon]

Garrison came down T1 against Shardless and produced a ton of damage then blockers when he stabilized with Goyf. Rabble sucks because you have to fire in with the token and get it eaten rather then holding back to build a mass / block. Recruiter was garbage, it's going to be another Pia or Avalanche Rider. Mystic Confluence is going to become the new 1RR spell from EMN. Honestly not sure I will play the deck again. I generally hit it once and quit it.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Zupponn]

Rabble sucks because you have to fire in with the token and get it eaten rather then holding back to build a mass / block.

On the other hand, if you play rabble and then they play goyf, you can keep pushing through damage with tokens or maybe look to trade with the goyf. Hanweir in that situation does nothing but sit there and look stupid.

Personally, I think both cards are good depending on the situation. The most enticing thing about hanweir to me is the three toughness.

[Jon]

I disagree , but I won't play the deck more then once or twice so it doesn't matter.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Ace/Homebrew]

I've started using Ratchet Bombs to handle Goyf because we have no way to deal with it otherwise. How does everyone else win through Goyfs?

My foil Garrisons arrived Monday! Anxious to try them out.
The completionist in me feels obligated to get at least 1 foil Hanweir Battlements so I can look at the stupid oversize card they make together. :mad:



Also kinda curious how autotags displays Hanweir, the Writhing Township. (Meh, okay)

[ZTurgeon]

I've started using Ratchet Bombs to handle Goyf because we have no way to deal with it otherwise. How does everyone else win through Goyfs?

My foil Garrisons arrived Monday! Anxious to try them out.
The completionist in me feels obligated to get at least 1 foil Hanweir Battlements so I can look at the stupid oversize card they make together. :mad:



Also kinda curious how autotags displays Hanweir, the Writhing Township. (Meh, okay)

Dismember does a solid job at it

[Ace/Homebrew]

Dismember does a solid job at it
Ugh, yeah I suppose. How many do you run (main deck and sideboard)?

[Wichtelman]

I've started using Ratchet Bombs to handle Goyf because we have no way to deal with it otherwise. How does everyone else win through Goyfs?

tried multiple things like...

-icy manipulator that is mainly vs show and tell but still ok vs goyf
-ensnaring bridge that is also mainly vs show and tell but also ok vs any big creatures
-ratchet bomb pretty much vs anything annoying and even vs other bombs in the eldrazi matchup
-dismember but most creatures you want to hit are small and the lifeloss is a pain specially with tomb
-equipments to overpower their creatures
-bigger creatures that can deal with goyf or stuff like hangarback walker

there are a lot of options but personally i dont want to use too specific sb cards if your matchup is not abmysal like show and tell... that said i like ratchet bomb in that slot...
(sin prodder + prophetic flamespeaker + pia are decent vs goyf)

[apocolyps6]

If Dismember's biggest problem is the life loss, then Roast is an option. It does not kill Delvers but otherwise seems fine.

[ChemicalBurns]

Hey everyone, been back on the Dragon Stompy train with this list. Have only been testing it a little, but feels pretty fluid so far:

Creatures: (24)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Non-Creature Spells: (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands: (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Hanweir Battlements
3 Cavern of Souls
8 Mountain

Sideboard: (15)
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Fiery Confluence
2 Sudden Shock
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Manic Vandal
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Koth of the Hammer

I'm somewhat happy with the configuration of the creatures (I know a lot of people are kind of down on Recruiter due to being slow, but I personally am a big fan due to the flexibility he gives you on the curve). I can see cutting Avalanche Riders and some of the equipment for some main deck removal though - probably something like Magma Jet or even moving the Sudden Shocks to the main. I'd also like to find room for a Vandal in the main deck.

The one-of Hanweir Battlement is probably too cute, but with eight ways to find Garrison, if you are flooding it's a nice way to get a giant bomb going.

In the sideboard, Fiery Confluence has been a continuous rockstar. The rest of it I've filled out with generic removal (Sudden Shock for Delver/D&T/etc.), Bridge for S&T and then a few silver-bullets for Recruiter. Chandra, Flamecaller is another loose card I'm trying, which should either just be a Chandra, Pyromaster or another Koth.

But yeah, we've reach a crazy amount of 2R token-creating creatures at the moment that clock super-fast while being very strong against Miracles and other basic-heavy control decks.

[LordOMJ]

Mystic Confluence is going to become the new 1RR spell from EMN.

Making the switch from Fiery Confluence to Collective Defiance is interesting. Gives you a bit more reach to kill a 4 toughness creature and recycle cards in your hand. Not going to lie though, I'm probably more interested in Savage Alliance. Now that we have access to 8 token producing bodies, not hitting our own bodies with while picking off something with three toughness doesn't seem terrible. Giving Rabblemaster is a hilarious bonus, not that I expect it to come up often. Costing 3R vs 2RR once you get to 4 mana doesn't seem that big, but the fact that you can get one mode for 2R isn't nothing. Not sure how I feel about giving up modal access to artifact destruction and scale-ability of the sweep though.

Edit: Instant speed may give it some play dealing with an active mom in combat? I'll certainly plan to test the card.

[Koby]

My dream creature for this deck would be a :2::r: Mountainwalker with pushed combat stats.

Goblin King or bust.

[ESG]

Goblin King or bust.

Heh.

This guy's from the same era. Stats are weak and CMC is worse than 2R, but pro-white is solid. What would the power and toughness need to be to make him playable? 5/5? 6/6?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/156.jpg

[Ace/Homebrew]

What would the power and toughness need to be to make him playable? 5/5? 6/6?
It's probably playable at 4/4. Then it pretty much dodges all 1-for-1 removal.

[Sergi]

Did you ever consider Urza's Rage in place of Magma Jet or Sudden Shock? The mana cost is perfect: 2R

A lot of times I'm forced to put chalice at 2. Versus Painter (killing painter's servant) or decks like Loam the extra point of damage matters (i.e. killing a knight of the reliquary with fetchland in graveyard)

Also has fringe synergy with Koth -2 ability (or the B/G sword) and 6 lands, and "can't be countered" also helps.

[Jon]

Deck has 0 card selection, Jet lets you put 2 mountains on the bottom of your deck so you can draw more Chrome Mox.

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[Lyle Hopkins]

Deck has 0 card selection, Jet lets you put 2 mountains on the bottom of your deck so you can draw more Chrome Mox.

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This made me laugh. :smile:

[Octopusman]

Deck has 0 card selection, Jet lets you put 2 mountains on the bottom of your deck so you can draw more Chrome Mox.

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LMAO! Can I sig this?

[Jon]

Yeah. I mean. It's the truth.

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[Jon]

Guess I am going to run my head into the wall again this weekend and play the same list minus 1 Recruiter plus one sick signed avalanche rider. I need to get Darwin Castle to sign it so I can get hype or kappa or whatever.

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[zangoasyl]

Guess I am going to run my head into the wall again this weekend and play the same list minus 1 Recruiter plus one sick signed avalanche rider. I need to get Darwin Castle to sign it so I can get hype or kappa or whatever.

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Good luck and enjoy drawing awkward hands :-p
A question for you though:
How were your feelings about the 2/2 revokers split? Did you wish for a Revoker appear more often game one than you wished for an appearing one 2 b something more threatening? Like a scab clan berserker or similar which you only have in the side? ?

[nedleeds]

Did you ever consider Urza's Rage in place of Magma Jet or Sudden Shock? The mana cost is perfect: 2R

A lot of times I'm forced to put chalice at 2. Versus Painter (killing painter's servant)

If you have a Chalice on 1 that deck has no text. I think letting them have a sub-optimal Uncle Istvan is fine.

[Jon]

Good luck and enjoy drawing awkward hands :-p
A question for you though:
How were your feelings about the 2/2 revokers split? Did you wish for a Revoker appear more often game one than you wished for an appearing one 2 b something more threatening? Like a scab clan berserker or similar which you only have in the side? ?
I drew real bad. Lost to decks with 1/2 basics and only beat an old guy playing Deathshadow loam 8 rack.......

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[Zupponn]

The death shadow loam 8 rack deck is probably a bad matchup for us oddly enough.

Dragon Stompy is not an easy deck to play, so don't get too discouraged based on a single bad showing.

[Jon]

I mean casting bloodmoon is pretty hard. I drew Moonman against the Delver deck with bolts. I'm not invested in the deck so I don't particularly care. I chose the deck for a known meta and it functioned. This weekend I was too lazy to play something else , the deck is fine but it doesn't have brainstorm.

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[Ace/Homebrew]

I got to try out Hanweir Garrison this weekend!
Despite going 3-3-0, I still was rewarded with a $50 bill. But that's what happens when 59 people show up to a $5K. :wink:

Merfolk 2-1
Miracles 2-1
RUG Delver 0-2
RUG Delver 2-1 7th place!
Merfolk 0-2 15th place...
Eldrazi 0-2 22nd place :frown:

I picked up my first ever round loss to Eldrazi (out of 8 or 9 rounds). He ran 1 basic Wastes and it let him continue casting threats game 2. Game 1 I kept an aggro hand without any Blood Moons.
My win against Merfolk occurred when my opponent failed to draw True-Name Nemesis. My loss was when my opponent drew 1 or 2...

I went without graveyard hate and did not regret it. Ratchet Bomb and Ensnaring Bridge were beastly cards all day.
Trinisphere never came in from the board.

I ran a 4/2 split of Garrison/Rabblemaster.
A turn 1 Garrison enabled a quick win against Miracles.



I have heard the phrase "Rule of 8" thrown around to describe the ability to build a deck around seeing at least one of two almost identical cards in a game.
For example: the printing of Magus of the Moon activated the Rule of 8 which allows this deck to exist.
Hanweir Garrison and Goblin Rabblemaster look like they could be 8 cards we won't want to exclude from our maindeck 60. I have often found a turn 1 Rabblemaster into a turn 2 Rabblemaster has a high chance of stealing the game. Hanweir Garrison only further increases the chances of this. It's the real deal.

[Negator77']

I ran a 4/2 split of Garrison/Rabblemaster.
A turn 1 Garrison enabled a quick win against Miracles.

I have heard the phrase "Rule of 8" thrown around to describe the ability to build a deck around seeing at least one of two almost identical cards in a game.
For example: the printing of Magus of the Moon activated the Rule of 8 which allows this deck to exist.
Hanweir Garrison and Goblin Rabblemaster look like they could be 8 cards we won't want to exclude from our maindeck 60. I have often found a turn 1 Rabblemaster into a turn 2 Rabblemaster has a high chance of stealing the game. Hanweir Garrison only further increases the chances of this. It's the real deal.

I had the pleasure of personally witnessing that game against Miracles. It was very entertaining!

[Ace/Homebrew]

It was good meeting you! Congrats on doing way better than me. :smile:

[ZTurgeon]

I have heard the phrase "Rule of 8" thrown around to describe the ability to build a deck around seeing at least one of two almost identical cards in a game.
For example: the printing of Magus of the Moon activated the Rule of 8 which allows this deck to exist.
Hanweir Garrison and Goblin Rabblemaster look like they could be 8 cards we won't want to exclude from our maindeck 60. I have often found a turn 1 Rabblemaster into a turn 2 Rabblemaster has a high chance of stealing the game. Hanweir Garrison only further increases the chances of this. It's the real deal.



While I like Garrison, it isn't the same. 2 Rabblemasters deals 30 damage by turn 3 (1 the first turn, 8 the second turn, 21 the Third turn). Rabble into Garrison deals 19 by turn 3 (1 the first turn, 6 the second turn, 12 the third turn) and Garrison into Rabble deals 17 (0 the first turn, 5 the second turn, 12 the third turn). While all of these are good, only one of them locks up the kill against a combo deck. I don't think you can keep a Rabble and Garrison hand in the blind with no other backup like you can with a Double Rabble hand.

[Ace/Homebrew]

While I like Garrison, it isn't the same. 2 Rabblemasters deals 30 damage by turn 3 (1 the first turn, 8 the second turn, 21 the Third turn). Rabble into Garrison deals 19 by turn 3 (1 the first turn, 6 the second turn, 12 the third turn) and Garrison into Rabble deals 17 (0 the first turn, 5 the second turn, 12 the third turn). While all of these are good, only one of them locks up the kill against a combo deck. I don't think you can keep a Rabble and Garrison hand in the blind with no other backup like you can with a Double Rabble hand.

I hear your point, but also keep in mind that fetchlands, Probe, and Thoughtseize (harder to argue that Thoughtseize helps us as they're likely to take the 2nd copy) make our job easier. And that doing the level of damage described cuts off lines for some combo decks.

[Zupponn]

I wonder if Garrison could replace Rakka Mar, Pia and Kiran and/or maybe the third SGC in my Moggcatcher list.

Rakka Mar could get swapped quite easily, though her haste is a nice bonus.

I really like Pia and Kiran's ability to turn extra Chrome Moxes and 3Spheres into gas later on, so I'm not sure if I'd dump her.

The third SGC is a tough one to replace as I would be sacrificing removal for a dude. Probably won't switch this one.

[Octopusman]

Thanks Ace,

I find your comments about Garrison very encouraging. Please continue to let us know your progress.
I'm still very much liking Sin Prodder so I need to decide where they will fit in the deck. If I remove Trinisphere from main, I want another lock piece or hatebear rather than just more agro that gets bent over by Terminus and Verdict (happened to me twice in the same event last weekend where I went 0-3 drop: 2 Miracles and D&T where I saw no shattering spree/anarchy).
I did play Revoker main again (2/2 split w/ Trinisphere) and, as expected, it was amazing. :-/ Never thought there would be too many good cards for this deck to run.

Kind regards,

[cin]

Hi guys,

I've won 1st at a 10-Man Legacy in a local shop here.


Decklist:
[Land]
8 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb


[Creature]
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Moggcatcher
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Murderous Redcap


[Enchantment]
4 Blood Moon


[Artifact]
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Chrome Mox


[Planeswalker]
2 Koth of the Hammer


[Sideboard]
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Boil
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Volcanic Fallout
1 Sudden Shock
1 Trinisphere


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1st Round (Miracles) [2-0] WIN
Game 1: WIN
- Locked him out because he kept a 1-Land hand.

Game 2: WIN
- Rabblemaster beatdown and Siege-Gang Commander did the deal.

Boarding:
OUT: 2x Koth of the Hammer, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Imperial Recruiter
IN: 3x Boil, 1x Trinisphere

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2nd Round (Dredge) [1-2] LOSS
Game 1: LOSS
1st Turn Magus of the moon (but didn't meant alot since he has Faithless Looting in hand)
- Didn't noticed that Bridge from below can be removed by the token produced by Kiki-Jiki is sacrificed. which lead to my loss

Game 2: WIN
- 1st Turn Leyline did the deal

Game 3:LOSS
- Mulled to 5 for LOTV but it didn't appear so I had no choice but to keep.
- Dread Returned Iona naming RED

Boarding
OUT: 2x Koth of the Hammer, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Imperial Recruiter,
IN: 4x Leyline of the Void

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

3rd Round (Grixis Delver) [2-1] WIN
Game 1: WIN
- (on the play) T1 Chalice and T3 Magus, and Chalice for 2 and 3 on the mid-game.

Game 2: LOSS
- Cabal Therapy on T1 naming CoTV.
- Countered my threats and eventually casted True-Name Nemesis in the mid-game.

Game 3: WIN
- Destroyed my CoTV for 1 and he Surgical Extractioned it.
- Locked him with Blood Moons and Trinispheres, Volcanic Fallout really helped my match here since he could've beaten me down by his Young Pyromancers and tokens.

Boarding:
OUT: 1x Stingscourger, 2x Koth of the Hammer, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper
IN: 3x Volcanic Fallout, 1x Trinisphere

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

3rd Round (Jund) [2-0] WIN
Game 1: WIN
- T1 Blood Moon and T2 T3 and T4 Rabblemaster made me won.

Game 2: WIN
- He fetched Badlands instead of a basic land caused him the delay.
- T1 Blood Moon on my part and it did the locking for the rest until lethal damage was given.

Boarding:
Did not board any cards.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I've won 1st at a 10-Man Legacy in a local shop here.
Congrats! :wink:


1st Round (Miracles) [2-0] WIN
Boarding:
OUT: 2x Koth of the Hammer, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Imperial Recruiter
IN: 3x Boil, 1x Trinisphere
Koth is typically a haymaker in this matchup. He makes threats they cannot handle profitably and only Council's Judgment can directly remove him.
Stingscourger seems pretty weak here. I don't know what other card I'd take out... I'd probably only board in the 3 Boil.


2nd Round (Dredge) [1-2] LOSS
Game 1: LOSS
1st Turn Magus of the moon (but didn't meant alot since he has Faithless Looting in hand)
- Didn't noticed that Bridge from below can be removed by the token produced by Kiki-Jiki is sacrificed. which lead to my loss

Boarding
OUT: 2x Koth of the Hammer, 1x Tuktuk Scrapper, 1x Imperial Recruiter,
IN: 4x Leyline of the Void
Stingscourger's echo can clear bridges as well as Murderous Redcap (he targets himself, hitting the yard, clearing bridges, then returning with a -1/-1 counter to kill off a Narcomoeba).
You most definitely want Trinisphere #4 in there games 2 and 3. If you cannot find leyline, but can get off a turn 1 Trinisphere you are still likely to win (turns off the 'free' spells Cabal Therapy, Dread Return) or at least get a 3 turn head start.

Take a look at Goblin Sharpshooter for your sideboard. It deals with all the X/1's in the format (except TNN of course) and Dredge cannot win with him on the board.

And again, congrats!

Edit - Oh yeah, Siege-Gang's ability also clears bridges. :cool:

[cin]

Congrats! :wink:


Koth is typically a haymaker in this matchup. He makes threats they cannot handle profitably and only Council's Judgment can directly remove him.
Stingscourger seems pretty weak here. I don't know what other card I'd take out... I'd probably only board in the 3 Boil.


Stingscourger's echo can clear bridges as well as Murderous Redcap (he targets himself, hitting the yard, clearing bridges, then returning with a -1/-1 counter to kill off a Narcoemba).
You most definitely want Trinisphere #4 in there games 2 and 3. If you cannot find leyline, but can get off a turn 1 Trinisphere you are still likely to win (turns off the 'free' spells Cabal Therapy, Dread Return) or at least get a 3 turn head start.

Take a look at Goblin Sharpshooter for your sideboard. It deals with all the X/1's in the format (except TNN of course) and Dredge cannot win with him on the board.

And again, congrats!

Edit - Oh yeah, Siege-Gang's ability also clears bridges. :cool:

Yeah I'm well aware on the wrong boarding on UWR Miracles, Because at first I thought he's using his main deck (Omnitell) on my boarding. coz I only saw 1 land in play on the first game. The one's piloting the Miracles was also my friend that's why I know he's using his pet deck Omnitell lol!

I've also tried the Sharpshooter before but sometimes it depends on the Meta. =)

Thanks for your good advices with regards to the Bridge. Bridge from below is really a pain in the *ss! lol!

[ZTurgeon]

Congrats! :wink:


Koth is typically a haymaker in this matchup. He makes threats they cannot handle profitably and only Council's Judgment can directly remove him.
Stingscourger seems pretty weak here. I don't know what other card I'd take out... I'd probably only board in the 3 Boil.


Stingscourger's echo can clear bridges as well as Murderous Redcap (he targets himself, hitting the yard, clearing bridges, then returning with a -1/-1 counter to kill off a Narcomoeba).
You most definitely want Trinisphere #4 in there games 2 and 3. If you cannot find leyline, but can get off a turn 1 Trinisphere you are still likely to win (turns off the 'free' spells Cabal Therapy, Dread Return) or at least get a 3 turn head start.

Take a look at Goblin Sharpshooter for your sideboard. It deals with all the X/1's in the format (except TNN of course) and Dredge cannot win with him on the board.

And again, congrats!

Edit - Oh yeah, Siege-Gang's ability also clears bridges. :cool:

If you are going to try and clear bridges with a Redcap, you need to remember to do it on your turn. If you do it on your opponent's, their triggers will resolve last, meaning they will still be in the yard when you go to kill the narcomeba. If you have the mana, SSG is better at it, because the sac is a cost.

[ChemicalBurns]

Hello everyone! I 4-0ed the weekly I was at recently with the list below:

Creatures: (24)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Avalanche Riders

Non-Creature Spells: (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Sudden Shock

Lands: (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Hanweir Battlements
8 Mountain

Sideboard: (15)
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Fiery Confluence
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Manic Vandal
1 Stingscourger

Match 1 vs. 12 Post
G1: I started with T1 Revoker on Candle after he started with a Post, I then Recruitered for Magus. Magus got in play, Revoker got Wailed, he eventually got a Top going while some Rabble beats started. He eventually Show and Telled in Kozilek, the Great Distortion, I put in another Recruiter, got another Rabblemaster and piled in over the course of the next few turns going wide around the Kozilek.

-3 Trinisphere
-2 Sudden Shock
+1 Stingscourger
+2 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Koth of the Hammer
+1 Chandra, Flamecaller

Trinisphere seems mediocre since they're such a big mana deck anyway. Really we just want to Moon them into oblivion.

G2: Mull to a five with double SSG, Magus, Moon and another creature (I think it was Recruiter). Scry City to top, he forces my t1 Magus, but then struggles against the Moon next turn. I eventually cobble together enough mana for Recruiter into a second Magus, just for security against Repeal (he had a tonne of Posts in play) and then get a Garrison to quickly beat down.

So match one, victory for the Moons. Very easy matchup.

Match 2 vs. Reanimator
G1: I turn one a Magus off Mountain, Mox, Mox. He draws, discards Griselbrand to hand size. I get Rabble into play, attack with Goblin and Magus. He Petals and Reanimates Griselbrand, putting him to 9. I have nothing in hand, I draw Sudden Shock. I attack with everything, him, fearing some shenanigans, blocks a Goblin with Grizz. Before damage I Shock my Goblin putting him to a very low life total. If he swings with Griselbrand I kill him on the crack back. Next turn I draw a Chalice. I cast it for one. Most of the cards he draws off Grizz are now irrelevant. I swing with Goblins into Grizz (since I have to) and he gains some life. This goes on for awhile, I eventually draw a Chalice for two and assemble a turn where I cast two Rabblemasters in my second main, cracking past the Griselbrand for lethal. I feel my opponent misplayed here at some stage, though my Chalices locking him out of anymore reanimation was interesting, and we certainly put out a lot of power to race the Demon.

-2 Sudden Shock
-1 Avalanche Riders
-1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
-1 Scab-Clan Berserker
-2 Blood Moon
+3 Leyline of the Void
+1 Stingscourger
+1 Faerie Macabre
+2 Ensnaring Bridge

Usual hate, and shaved some Moons since they generally have access to basics once they're on the play.

G2: I have a Bridge and Recruiter in my hand, so good times. I get things started with a turn one Trinisphere after he Island > Ponders, which gets Forced (pitching Show and Tell). I eventually Magus him with only Island Volc in play. He opts to Izzet Charm, digging for lands, which seems weird, but he tells me later he had a second Charm in hand for when he wanted to deal with Magus after the game. He bins some fatties, I get a Rabble going, while I also find a Faerie Macabre in a draw step. So I feel I have the game pretty locked up. He eventually Charms the Rabble aiming to buy time but dorky Goblins and Magus beats kill him.

Match 3 vs. Zoo
These were actually really scary games!

G1: I win roll, Chalice on one and then Scab-Clan Berserker his face in while he can't cast anything.

-1 Blood Moon
-4 Magus of the Moon
-1 Avalanche Riders
+2 Fiery Confluence
+2 Pyrokinesis
+1 Koth of the Hammer
+1 Chandra, Flamecaller

Blood Moons seemed mediocre, but they do change Kird Apes to 1/1s. I probably should've brought in Bridges.

G2: He Wastelands the crap out of me, and I have to lean on Tombs while I'm beaten up by a Kird Ape. Tin Street Hooligan Stone Rains me via hitting a Mox too. Eventually Chandra, Flamecaller comes out to stabilise the board, but he Bolts me to death after too much Tomb damage.

G3: This is a crazy game. We got back and forth, I go Chalice on 1 into Rabble, but he follows with a Tin Street to push the game in his favour. He kills the Rabble with a Bolt and a Lavamancer joins his Tin Street. I cannot find my second red source for a Confluence in my hand. Eventually he casts his Rabble (!) and things get wild. I rip Mountain off the top and Wrath him. He draws Goblin Guide, attacks, and shows me Hanweir Garrison for my next draw step. Which is great. Garrison comes in and keeps the Guide at bay - my opponent is drawing Wastelands, but I still have a lot of mana now. I draw another Confluence! I kill his Guide, but Garrison sticks around and the Humans get there. When I was on three life, and a Bolt away from death of course.

Match 4 vs. Dredge
G1: I win roll and Chalice him for one. This cuts off his Breakthrough in hand, though he ends up using an LED to bin his hand anyway and get things rolling. Not many Ichorids or Narco's appear, though he flips a lot of Bridges. I Recruiter for Pia and Kiran Nalaar though, and slam them turn three while he's still setting up shop. I untap with them with nothing too crazy going on from him, thankfully, and then get the beats going while parents make sure Bridges will do no work as I can fling Thppters to exile them. Phew!

+3 Leyline of the Void
+1 Faerie Macabre
+2 Pyrokinesis
+2 Fiery Confluence
-1 Avalanche Rider
-1 Scab-Clan Berserker
-4 Blood Moon
-2 Magus of the Moon

I realised Moons don't really do much after they've used their mana on turn one. They can still cast Looting too anyway.

G2: I keep a strong hand with a Pyrokinesis and Rabble and Garrison, plus a Chalice I think. He doesn't have an explosive draw and instead Firestorms for 1 to get his Dredging going, then Street Wraith to accelerate. He hits three Narcomoebas and an Iona, plus he has an LED in play. On his draw step, I Pyro all the Narcos (luckily no Bridges were in his yard), since if he goes to his main phase and he discard a Return to LED, then I'm locked out by Iona. I then go Rabble into Garrison while he's still not doing much (his Dredges were pretty poor) and then they bring it home very quickly.

Overall, the deck felt super strong, but I also got pretty lucky with die rolls and etc. I highly recommend the four Recruiters if you can get them - there's quite a few powerful toolboxey creatures at the moment in mono-red. It also makes Melding Garrison (as lame as it is) actually feasible, since if you actually every draw your land + Recruiter you can have access to a big trampling idiot if the game goes long. Very corner-case, but it's interesting that this is an actual possibility. The core of Rabble and Garrison were excellent though, and did exactly the job we desire. Garrison's 2/3 body was also exceptional, as I showed with the Fiery Confluence play above, something not possible from Rabble. Also, P&K was also excellent, and in my mind is the best four-drop we have access to in non-Moggcatcher versions (better than Rakka Mar, at least).

Confluence was also probably the best of the sideboard cards in terms of flexibility, though I feel another piece of artifact destruction (or Sulfur Elementals) may be warranted since there's a bit of D&T around me. I might change the Sudden Shocks to another piece of removal - maybe Jet, or maybe just some equipment. Riders also was the most mediocre Recruiter target in the main, and I might want to instead main the Stingscourger. Chandra, Flamecaller was also... Interesting. I love having a ultra-controlly planeswalker bomb in the sideboard that can stabilise the board, but she is a hella lotta mana. Another Koth may just be better.

Anyway, Dragon Stompy is awesome, Garrison is great, keep jamming this excellent deck people! :D

[The Crow's Eye]

Garrison and Rabblemaster spitroasted the local Miracles deck.

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Hanweir Garrison
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Shaman of the Great Hunt
4 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Avaricious Dragon
2 Stormbreath Dragon

2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker

3 Magma Jet
1 Collective Defiance
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
10 Mountain

SB
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Fiery Confluence
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Trinisphere
1 Koth of the Hammer

I was playing Pyromaster main, but decided I wanted my CA to go in for beats, hence an Avaricious Dragon. Crystal Vein is there because I don't want to wasteland myself too much with City. Revoker and TKS come in for games where the Moons aren't needed.

Koth's been slow for me; I decided to add Shaman after seeing some of the Japanese using him in their lists. He seems especially potent with our ground forces, and can even make our Magi into threats in their own right.

[LeoCop 90]

Won a local event today. 20 people, 5 rounds, cut to top8

Mana sources:
11 mountain
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 chrome mox
4 simian spirit guide

Lock pieces:
4 blood moon
4 chalice
4 magus of the moon

Threats:
4 goblin rabblemaster
4 hanweir garrison
4 thunderbreak regent
2 pia and kiran
1 koth of the hammer

Random stuff:
2 Fiery confluence
1 stone rain
1 aftershock
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

Sideboard:
3 phyrexian revoker
3 trinisphere
2 ensnaring bridge
2 sulfur elemental
2 pyrokinesis
2 boil
1 fiery confluence

beat elves,lost to grixis, then beat omnitell and eldrazi. Draw into top 8, where i beat aluren, death and taxes, and lands.

hanweir garrison was good, he helped a lot against death and taxes attacking through thalia, and beat lands by itself (no moon on the table) because he couldn't be punishing fired. Plus, the possibility of playing him or rabblemaster on turn one when you don't have moon or chalice can steal games.

The 4 drops were whatever, koth and pia looked better than thunderbreak ( but probably just because i drew them more often).

Fiery confluence is insane. I won against eldrazi and death and taxes because of it, was good everytime i cast it, even against grixis it almost made me recover from a very unfavorable position. Unfortunately he had an angler on the table, and i have to say big creatures are extremely problematic... i don't think we are the kind of deck that can maindeck many spotremoval, we need high impact cards, but maybe a couple dismembers in sideboard are ok.

Equipments looked bad. i never really liked playing with them, next time they will probably just be more removal or stone rains.

I mulled a lot, also to 5, but then got lucky topdecking or scrying on top the cards i needed. That's how you win with this deck: never fear mulliganing !

[CovenantElite30]

Won a local event today. 20 people, 5 rounds, cut to top8

Mana sources:
11 mountain
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 chrome mox
4 simian spirit guide

Lock pieces:
4 blood moon
4 chalice
4 magus of the moon

Threats:
4 goblin rabblemaster
4 hanweir garrison
4 thunderbreak regent
2 pia and kiran
1 koth of the hammer

Random stuff:
2 Fiery confluence
1 stone rain
1 aftershock
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

Sideboard:
3 phyrexian revoker
3 trinisphere
2 ensnaring bridge
2 sulfur elemental
2 pyrokinesis
2 boil
1 fiery confluence

beat elves,lost to grixis, then beat omnitell and eldrazi. Draw into top 8, where i beat aluren, death and taxes, and lands.

hanweir garrison was good, he helped a lot against death and taxes attacking through thalia, and beat lands by itself (no moon on the table) because he couldn't be punishing fired. Plus, the possibility of playing him or rabblemaster on turn one when you don't have moon or chalice can steal games.

The 4 drops were whatever, koth and pia looked better than thunderbreak ( but probably just because i drew them more often).

Fiery confluence is insane. I won against eldrazi and death and taxes because of it, was good everytime i cast it, even against grixis it almost made me recover from a very unfavorable position. Unfortunately he had an angler on the table, and i have to say big creatures are extremely problematic... i don't think we are the kind of deck that can maindeck many spotremoval, we need high impact cards, but maybe a couple dismembers in sideboard are ok.

Equipments looked bad. i never really liked playing with them, next time they will probably just be more removal or stone rains.

I mulled a lot, also to 5, but then got lucky topdecking or scrying on top the cards i needed. That's how you win with this deck: never fear mulliganing !


Took your list to my local FNM went 3-1 and cashed. Hanweir Garrison was a house, great card.

My matches were:
2-0 Vs Miracles round 1
2-1 Vs Burn round 2
1-2 Vs Miracles round 3
2-1 Vs Storm round 4

My lose to Miracles I kept a sketchy hand with no red source and lost to a Mentor I couldn't deal with.

In a miracles heavy meta I would probably play another sulfur elemental in the main.

Deck felt strong, but like with most Stompy decks it can lose to itself.

I think I kind of want some fetches in the main for the Miracles match.

I feel this deck begs to have a 1 of Purphoros, God of the Forge, what do you guys think?

[LeoCop 90]

I'm glad you did well, Covenant, i really think this deck deserves a lot more credit than people usually give to it.

Regarding your questions :

- Purphoros is bad. it looks good to burn opponents with rabblemaster and garrison tokens, and sometimes it could also win, but generally you don't want to play cards that literally do nothing on their own, especially when they cost 4. We don't have that many threats, so all of them have to be able to win on their own, without relying on sinergies. This is also why i don't like equipments too much, and they obviously are more consistent than purphoros (you just need one creature on the table to make an equipment good, while purphoros maybe justifies its cost when he deals like 8 damage)

- Fetches against miracle? i don't understand why they should improve the matchup. If it's for deck thinning, well, it has been discussed a lot of times and deck thinning is not worth losing 1 life point you lose. Is there another reason i'm missing ?

[CovenantElite30]

I'm glad you did well, Covenant, i really think this deck deserves a lot more credit than people usually give to it.

Regarding your questions :

- Purphoros is bad. it looks good to burn opponents with rabblemaster and garrison tokens, and sometimes it could also win, but generally you don't want to play cards that literally do nothing on their own, especially when they cost 4. We don't have that many threats, so all of them have to be able to win on their own, without relying on sinergies. This is also why i don't like equipments too much, and they obviously are more consistent than purphoros (you just need one creature on the table to make an equipment good, while purphoros maybe justifies its cost when he deals like 8 damage)

- Fetches against miracle? i don't understand why they should improve the matchup. If it's for deck thinning, well, it has been discussed a lot of times and deck thinning is not worth losing 1 life point you lose. Is there another reason i'm missing ?

I'm new to the deck so my opinion is just based on the few matches I have with it.

The reason I was thinking fetches would be nice because once miracles terminus the board you have no way of shuffling your deck.

Also play draw go with Miracles is not a fun place to be at and drawing lands off the top if your deck late game just sucks. Thinning out the deck and the shuffle would probably give you better odds of drawing a action card late in the game.

Whats your opinion on playing "Shaman of the Great Hunt" or "Avaricious Dragon" in the deck?

[CovenantElite30]

I'm glad you did well, Covenant, i really think this deck deserves a lot more credit than people usually give to it.


Wanted to ask you also what "Stone Rain" and "Aftershock" was in the deck for? I feel like blood moon and Magus of the Moon really with most land issues. As far as "Aftershock", I think "Fiery Confluence" doesn't a better job. I guess if there is a giant creature on the board you can't deal with. I suppose I could see this deck having issues with larger creatures.

Whats your thoughts on Sin Prodder?

[LeoCop 90]

Well, keep in mind that i'm not an "expert" of this deck too. Other users like Ace or Zturgeon played it a lot more than me, but since the thread is quiet i will give my opinions.

Really, the whole shuffle your deck thing against miracles is not worth it. Just keep in mind that you never want to play a lot of creatures at the same time against miracles. Typically, one threat on the table is enough, they have to find answers and this way terminus will just be a 1 for 1. If you want to improve the matchup, add more koth of the hammer and land destruction.

The cards i put under "random stuff" in my decklist are just personal choices that could be anything. I like playing some number of stone rains because, well, blowing up a land on turn one sometimes is backbreaking, and you have the possibility to destroy the only basic land they have under a blood moon completely locking the game. I splitted stone rain and aftershock because aftershock is versatile and as you said we have problems with big creatures.

Avaricious dragon can be played as a one of or 2 of at most. The issue is that it encourages you to overextend, because you have to deploy your whole hand before dropping him, and if you have a second in hand it is just a dead card unless you have 8 mana to cast both.

I don't like shaman or sin prodder that much. They are both fragile (2 toughness), the first relies on being able to hit your opponent to be any good, and even if it connects we don't have a swarm of creatures so it will probably give one or 2 counters at most. I think rakka mar is a better option if you seek for other 4 drops: she still has haste and she completely takes over the game even without attacking. Sin prodder is good against blockers because of menace, but that's it. I think he is playable, but even factoring in damages dealt with its ability, i don't believe he is as good as rabblemaster or garrison.

Of course, you should experiment with everything you want, because we are not a tier 1 deck with a solid decklist set in stone, i am by no means a veteran of the deck, and testing is the best way to decide for yourself if cards are good or not.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Of course, you should experiment with everything you want, because we are not a tier 1 deck with a solid decklist set in stone, i am by no means a veteran of the deck, and testing is the best way to decide for yourself if cards are good or not.
I agree with everything LeoCop said! But I'm not as skeptical about Purphoros...

I could see a Rabblemaster/Garrison build wanting a 1-of, or as a sideboard card against Miracles. Especially if your other 4 drops are Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
Keep in mind Purphoros, God of the Forge also has an activated ability that grows the power of your team without over-extending into Terminus. :wink:

[CovenantElite30]

I agree with everything LeoCop said! But I'm not as skeptical about Purphoros...

I could see a Rabblemaster/Garrison build wanting a 1-of, or as a sideboard card against Miracles. Especially if your other 4 drops are Pia and Kiran Nalaar.
Keep in mind Purphoros, God of the Forge also has an activated ability that grows the power of your team without over-extending into Terminus. :wink:

Ace/Homebrew, are you still on this deck? What's your latest build?

I feel like if you build this deck to beat miracles it actually has a good place in the current meta.

Having a good diversity of must answer creatures along with the lock pieces is what makes this deck very powerful. But with most decks like this it can just lose to it's [IE] only drawing lock pieces or drawing just lands. I think adding more drawing engines to the deck would greatly smooth out your draws. Creatures like Sin Prodder and maybe even play Chandra that basically draws you a card.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Ace/Homebrew, are you still on this deck? What's your latest build?
I'm only on this deck. :wink:
I fall into the category of Legacy players that run their pet deck come hell or high water.

I forget what I have sleeved up right now, but I'm hoping to play Wednesday night. I'll try to post a list/thoughts.

[CovenantElite30]

I'm only on this deck. :wink:
I fall into the category of Legacy players that run their pet deck come hell or high water.

I forget what I have sleeved up right now, but I'm hoping to play Wednesday night. I'll try to post a list/thoughts.

Any chance we can get you to try out a Purphoros in the main?

[Zupponn]

Purphoros is bad. LeoCop pretty much explained why. A Jitte or SoFI would be far more useful.

[CovenantElite30]

Purphoros is bad. LeoCop pretty much explained why. A Jitte or SoFI would be far more useful.

I may just try it at my fnm this week and report back.

Porbably going to try a bunch of one ofs and see who they go.

I was thinking about trying out chandra as well.

[CovenantElite30]

Question for the group, how do you guys sideboard against Miracles?

Do you end up leaving in the Blood Moons? The videos I've seen the players generally left blood moon in.

Seems like a bad late game draw.

[Wichtelman]

Question for the group, how do you guys sideboard against Miracles?

Do you end up leaving in the Blood Moons? The videos I've seen the players generally left blood moon in.

Seems like a bad late game draw.

depends on what you have to bring in and what else could be sb-out... aswell as their build and strategy...

[Ace/Homebrew]

Blood Moon turns fetch lands into Mountains, which limits the power of Sensei's Divining Top.
If you can stop or limit-the-usefulness-of Top, then you are doing pretty good.

If you are main-decking Trinisphere, you can probably cut it for sideboard cards because the game is going to go beyond 3 turns and Miracles will put a land into play every turn.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Purphoros did nothing all night and got boarded out each game 2.
I was very pleased with my singleton Collective Defiance though! It took the spot of Magma Jet #4.

[CovenantElite30]

Purphoros did nothing all night and got boarded out each game 2.
I was very pleased with my singleton Collective Defiance though! It took the spot of Magma Jet #4.

Can you post your list?

How did you find yourself using Collective Defiance ?

I feel like Fiery Confluence is just better. Is it the fact that Collective Defiance does 4 damage to target creature instead of the 3?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Can you post your list?

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Ratchet Bomb

4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

3 Magma Jet
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Collective Defiance

1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Instigator Gang
1 Qal Sisma Behemoth
1 Koth of the Hammer

1 other card, which escapes me at the moment... It was probably an 11th Mountain.

Sideboard:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Pillage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker



How did you find yourself using Collective Defiance?
I killed a Young Pyromancer and bolted my opponent's face with it. There were at least two times I was hoping to draw it to cycle the excess lands/moxen from my hand (in addition to 1 or both of the other effects). One local event is certainly a small sample size, but as a singleton I thought it was worth having. I am very pleased with my non-permanent spell suite at the moment.

[frogger42]

Hello everyone! Just looking over a couple lists, I'm going to put my two cents in - in a deck that doesn't run Brainstorm/Ponder or other filtering, should a stompy deck just be working to be consistent? I see a lot of non-tutorable 1-ofs in lists, and if you draw it, great! You hit the lottery. If you don't, it makes no noticeable effect on your deck.
IMO - Dragon Stompy needs to run 4x Imperial Recruiter - this allows you to toolbox with the limited extra slots in the deck, and is the only card in red that allows your deck to be more consistent. It's a tutor, and it makes a singleton Revoker now a 5x Revoker (consistent!). That said, they're insanely expensive, and even I don't own Recruiters, so in lieu of that... shouldn't people be jamming whatever they can as 3 or 4-ofs so they know how their deck is going to play out any given day?

Power wins the match, but consistency wins tournaments. Without cantrips, you only have tutor effects left to make your deck consistent. Again, just my two cents, but it's super frustrating seeing all these random 1-ofs that literally do nothing in your deck, just speaking from probability's PoV. Can we at least agree on that?

[LeoCop 90]

Frogger, your point of view is generally right, but you are missing a relevant thing: the one or 2 ofs in ace deck are not essential cards by any means. collective defiance could easily be another magma jet, behemoth and koth could be other creatures. The core of the deck will always be magus, blood moon, chalice, nowadays i would probably add rabblemaster and hanweir garrison. I think this should the 4 ofs in any dragon stompy deck going on (excluding the goblin version which is different and competitive), then you can toy with the other slots. Of course if you want to play only playsets of cards then you will see them more often, but there isn't any reason why you couldn't play two magma jet and two sudden shock instead of 4 sudden shock, or just 1 koth/pia and kiran because they are legendary and you don't want to see more than one.

Imperial recruiter is fine and opens up some possibilities like running 1 revoker, 1 scab clan berserker, 1 manic vandal and so on, but overall he is slow and goes a bit against the deck game plan: lock down opponents and play things that kill them immediately. Not saying that you shouldn't play it if you own some copies, but he is by no means an auto-include.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yeah, what LeoCop said. :wink:

Purphoros was a 1-of because I was asked to try him out. He probably would have been a 2nd Instigator Gang otherwise.
The only time I saw Qal Sisma Behemoth, he ate a Force of Will from my opponent. I like the Behemoth as a 1-of, but doubt I'd ever go higher than that since he is so mana hungry. That said, some decks just can't handle a 5/5. And for the rest he's just the ham sandwich to win with after sticking a Blood Moon.

You won't hear any arguments from me if you say Imperial Recruiter is a playable card in this deck. I do feel it is too slow to warrant spending $800 on a playset.
So I'm going to continue playing what I want, cause that's fun for me. And I'll keep reporting here for the same reasons. :tongue:

[frogger42]

Ace and LeoCop - Definitely play what you want to, that's what the game is all about. Some people like the surprise factor of 1-ofs in their deck. Just from a competitive point of view, surprise factor only works when your opponent doesn't know what your deck is doing, but you do.

Legendary cards... sometimes you want the 1x, this is true. But in a deck with no filtering or tutoring, I think it's fine to run 2-3 Jitte; it's just so powerful a card, that you run a suboptimal # just so you can see it. I think Eureka Superfriends is the only non-tutoring deck where you want to run weird 1-2x copies of rando, powerful cards. Just to make Eureka a more powerful play.

And as for Recruiter, I ran a white stompy last night with the new Recruiter. I thought it would be good... but it was just totally busted. Esp when your 3-4 Tormod's Crypts can go down to 1x Faerie Macabre (and Containment Priest in this case); 4 Revokers -> 1. It opens your maindeck a little, and really your SB in so many unfair ways. The white deck is basically the same as mono-Red, and in both cases, I think Recruiter is fine as your "4 or 5" drop slot. Still though, $200 ea is not going to happen. Only if your LGS allows you to proxy a couple things, then I strongly suggest playtesting it.

But yeah, I mean, definitely play what you want to. That's the fun part of magic. I didn't mean to wag my finger or anything, but just point out that consistency is so important in stompy and other non-filtering, non-tutoring decks. I'm of the opinion that if you want to playtest something, esp in this style deck, you should jam the full 4x and see how and where it works, and doesn't work.

[Zupponn]

Also with a lot of the more recent lists posted here people are using the extra slots to test out the one-ofs. The lists on the previous page are mostly experimental in that regard.

[zangoasyl]

As Imperial Painter is my other main deck I started playing stompy with 4 recruiters exactly for the consistency reason and thought of everyone else not interested in adding consistency as... well... whatever :wink:
I was absolutely happy with it in my moggcatcher build, but found that the full playset of them were too many - you just don't have enough room if you have a full set of prison elements, moggcatcher and the toolbox. And in general: the extra turn it takes you to play what you tutored for really matters in many cases.

Now with Rabblemaster and Hanweir Garrison all you want is speed and overwhelm the opponent before he can stabilize with the additional prison element every now and then (yes I do play 8 Moons and 4 CotV, no no room for 3sphere). But the focus has shifted. My aim when playing this deck is to play consistent must-answers, no matter whether it is a prison element or a heavy beater. In this pattern of thinking, Recruiter is just too slow as my primary target is to play a must-answer card every single turn. (Fun fact: don't underestimate the perceived must-answer impact of suboptimal beaters like Scab-Clan Berserker - I've found sooo many opponents being more scared by him than by my other threats, I don't know why)

Of course the consistency problem still is a huge problem of this archetype. In my current list I'm using prophetic flamespeakere as a means to not die to drawing 4 lands in a row and have been experimenting with sin prodder but found it underwhelming.
Next test subject is gonna be taurean mauler (again a card of the category "not so strong but hopefully the opponent is afraid of it").

But concerning the sideboard plan obviously, frogger, you are absolutely right. I'm loving my imperial painter deck for exaclty this reason when comparing it to this one: Over there I have such a huge toolbox of answers and consistently find them due to 7 tutor effects available. In my stompy deck I'm more or less used to loosing against dredge for example and that really sucks.

[square_two]

Consistency has more to do with the type of card. The situation that ruins your game is going to be drawing land, mox, spirit guide, land when you need a significant threat. The issue, vast majority of the time, is not going to be "dang I drew this particular 3-drop aggro creature when I wanted a different 3-drop aggro creature".

It's not really a surprise factor, it's more of simply needing more of a type of card while already having 4-of what is considered the best.

Although yes, if you are playtesting in order to determine how good a potential addition is, you might have to go up to 3 or 4 just to see the dang thing even if you know that in a real tournament you wouldn't run those numbers.

[CovenantElite30]

Talking about consistency and 4 ofs, let's make a list then of all must answer 4 ofs creatures that should be in the deck. I would consider Thunderbreak Regent a must have 4 of. Along with obviously spirit, magus, rabblemaster and probably the new guy on the block Hanweir Garrison. That makes 20 creatures what would the last 4 of be, Scab-clan maybe?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

[Ace/Homebrew]

The issue when discussing consistency in regards to this deck is that this specific deck wants to be consistent in a different way than any deck playing Brainstorm. Brainstorm decks want to find land-drops until they reach the required amount (2 or 3), deploy efficient threats while holding countermagic, and find silver bullets while filtering. Brainstorm and Ponder let those pilots find the lands/threats/counters/bullets, and fetchlands help shuffle away unwanted cards.

This deck wants to consistently play Blood Moon or Chalice on turn 1. That is why approximately half(!) the deck is mana. If half your deck is mana, you are going to have stretches where you draw only mana... Them's the breaks!

Consistency in this deck is finding a threat after landing your prison element. It mostly doesn't matter what the threat is, just that it is a threat.
Consistency in this deck is running 8 :2::r: beaters that make tokens to continue beating if they are answered.
Consistency in this deck is playing a Blood Moon after your opponent Plows your Magus.


Talking about consistency and 4 ofs, let's make a list then of all must answer 4 ofs creatures that should be in the deck. I would consider Thunderbreak Regent a must have 4 of. Along with obviously spirit, magus, rabblemaster and probably the new guy on the block Hanweir Garrison. That makes 20 creatures what would the last 4 of be, Scab-clan maybe?

The core of this deck is:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Everything else is debatable! Lists have done well running Sandstone Needle over City of Traitors. Some lists use Cavern of Souls and shave off Chrome Mox. Your threats can be werewolves, goblins, humans, dragons...

Having said that, it is still worthwhile to strive for a list that is 'the best'. But even something like Thunderbreak Regent isn't a 'must answer 4-of' against all decks. Decks like Reanimator and Show and Tell shrug that off. Scab-Clan means nothing against Elves or Death & Taxes.

[frogger42]

The core of this deck is:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Everything else is debatable!

Absolutely. The truest thing ever said here.

@square_two - you said you'd probably not jam the 3-4 copies of a (non-essential) card in an actual tournament. Why not? Is it because it's Legendary, too high on the manacurve, or just "eh." I'm just trying to bring up the point that, if you want to talk competitive construction on these threads, your deck has to find some consistency. From my little bit of deckbuilding experience, if you're struggling to find those 1-2 cards to fill those last 8 slots, the deck isn't really going to be competitive. You should have about 4 cards you want to jam in there, and limited slots; you should be making the hard decision of "these are all really great and powerful cards, but I literally don't have the room for X and Y." Throw them in the SB or more likely just drop them altogether.

There are a million reasons not to jam 4x of a card, but that said, in a non-filtering, non-tutoring deck, 85% of the time you'll want 4x of a card. So a million reasons here = 15% about. If that. Even if it's the "2 Magma Jet, 2 Sudden Shock" split, there's no reason you shouldn't figure out which 4 you want. Why? Because you need to know how to play to your outs. If TD'ing a Sudden Shock will help you get out of a bind, but you're only running 2 - how are you going to plan for your next turn? 1/25 chance? If you know your outs, your opponents outs (which will likely be more obvious, assuming they're on a fairly stock list) now you have a huge advantage. You know how to set your board state to prepare for those 4 Sudden Shocks that you might draw at some point. Right?

I'm all for jamming what you want to, it's Murica, you do what you want. But if we're talking competitive play here, how to win tournaments etc., then it comes down to theory and practical building. That's why I'm talking about consistency here, and how to tune your deck optimally. That's what I enjoy, winning a ton of games and scraping to just miss T8. But with more style than some netdeck pretend-pro jerk.

[ZTurgeon]

Absolutely. The truest thing ever said here.

@square_two - you said you'd probably not jam the 3-4 copies of a (non-essential) card in an actual tournament. Why not? Is it because it's Legendary, too high on the manacurve, or just "eh." I'm just trying to bring up the point that, if you want to talk competitive construction on these threads, your deck has to find some consistency. From my little bit of deckbuilding experience, if you're struggling to find those 1-2 cards to fill those last 8 slots, the deck isn't really going to be competitive. You should have about 4 cards you want to jam in there, and limited slots; you should be making the hard decision of "these are all really great and powerful cards, but I literally don't have the room for X and Y." Throw them in the SB or more likely just drop them altogether.

There are a million reasons not to jam 4x of a card, but that said, in a non-filtering, non-tutoring deck, 85% of the time you'll want 4x of a card. So a million reasons here = 15% about. If that. Even if it's the "2 Magma Jet, 2 Sudden Shock" split, there's no reason you shouldn't figure out which 4 you want. Why? Because you need to know how to play to your outs. If TD'ing a Sudden Shock will help you get out of a bind, but you're only running 2 - how are you going to plan for your next turn? 1/25 chance? If you know your outs, your opponents outs (which will likely be more obvious, assuming they're on a fairly stock list) now you have a huge advantage. You know how to set your board state to prepare for those 4 Sudden Shocks that you might draw at some point. Right?

I'm all for jamming what you want to, it's Murica, you do what you want. But if we're talking competitive play here, how to win tournaments etc., then it comes down to theory and practical building. That's why I'm talking about consistency here, and how to tune your deck optimally. That's what I enjoy, winning a ton of games and scraping to just miss T8. But with more style than some netdeck pretend-pro jerk.

That's just not true. I know where your head is at, but that's how Magic decks were built in 1998. We have moved past that.

Look at a format like standard, where this is very little filtering. You see people running splits of similar cards all the time. Your failing to consider things like it being better to draw card A and card B, than two copies of card A.

In your Sudden Shock vs Jet example, you are failing to account for what you are facing. You want Shock vs Infect, but Jet vs Maverick. In your deck, you have one or the other, but having both allows your deck to be more robust, because you know the baseline value of 1R: 2 damage is really what you want.

Yes, having more copies of a card increase consistency but it fails to have any nuance in deckbuilding. There is a reason that decks don't often look like 24 lands and 9 playsets anymore. We are beyond that.

[frogger42]

In your Sudden Shock vs Jet example, you are failing to account for what you are facing. You want Shock vs Infect, but Jet vs Maverick. In your deck, you have one or the other, but having both allows your deck to be more robust, because you know the baseline value of 1R: 2 damage is really what you want.


I still don't see this. Do you have the option of choosing when to draw Shock vs when to draw Jet? No? Is it just totally random topdecking that you're doing here? Yes?
Can you prove with any degree of certainty (probability, any mathematical branch, really) that this is making your deck more robust? I'm pretty sure I can prove mathematically that what I'm saying has some merit.
Or I can just go away, if you don't want to hear what I'm trying to say. I think I'd just rather do that, at this point.

[CovenantElite30]

Looking to play my list tonight at fnm, any suggestions on changes would be great.
My meta is a lot of Miracles and D&T that's why I'm running 3 Sulfur Elemental in the side.
Also I've seen list run 4 Tormod's Crypt over Faerie Macabre, not sure which is better in this deck.
My thought is against storm you would play chalice on 0 so Crypt is not as good?

Creatures (24)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sin Prodder
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Avaricious Dragon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Thunderbreak Regent
Spells (17)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Blood Moon
1 Collective Defiance
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Trinisphere
76 Cards Total

[frogger42]

Also I've seen list run 4 Tormod's Crypt over Faerie Macabre, not sure which is better in this deck.
My thought is against storm you would play chalice on 0 so Crypt is not as good?


Faerie vs Crypt... it depends. Faerie is nuts against Reanimator. Crypt is still pretty good, but often gets Forced. I wouldn't bring Faerie in vs Storm, though, because mostly Storm's effects work off of # of things in the GY, not specific cards. Like Cabal Ritual - you'll want to wipe the whole GY to slow that down. And even Past in Flames - Crypt keeps them from storming off completely, Faerie might get their 2 tutors if you're lucky. They still get all their cantrips.

The other thing to consider with Crypt is if you run Trinisphere - which your list doesn't. Faerie is obv preferred with Trini. Up to you but not knowing the meta, I'd jam Crypts and risk hitting Chalice @ 0, since it's a pretty rare play you make.

[CovenantElite30]

Faerie vs Crypt... it depends. Faerie is nuts against Reanimator. Crypt is still pretty good, but often gets Forced. I wouldn't bring Faerie in vs Storm, though, because mostly Storm's effects work off of # of things in the GY, not specific cards. Like Cabal Ritual - you'll want to wipe the whole GY to slow that down. And even Past in Flames - Crypt keeps them from storming off completely, Faerie might get their 2 tutors if you're lucky. They still get all their cantrips.

The other thing to consider with Crypt is if you run Trinisphere - which your list doesn't. Faerie is obv preferred with Trini. Up to you but not knowing the meta, I'd jam Crypts and risk hitting Chalice @ 0, since it's a pretty rare play you make.

Thanks for the advice, any thoughts on my main deck?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I do not see any plan to get rid of X/2's that ruin our day (DRS, Mentor, Pyromancer, whatever) outside of 4-mana spells (chances are you'll escalate Defiance at least once every time you play it).

I'd recommend:

- Sin Prodder
- Thunderbreak Regent (or Avaricious Dragon)
- Sulfur Elemental

+3 Two-mana removal of your choice

And I don't think I would even board in graveyard hate against Storm... Your Revokers and Trinispheres do far more at hindering their plan. I would blindly name LED with the first Revoker, Petal with the second. I would remove the 2-mana removal and planeswalkers (+ another 4-drop) to fit them in.

---------------


Or I can just go away, if you don't want to hear what I'm trying to say. I think I'd just rather do that, at this point.
I hope that isn't true.

I agree with your points on consistency for a deck that fails to manipulate it's top-deck, but I am more open-minded about using 8 or 9 cards x 4. You mentioned scenarios where Sudden Shock is better than Magma Jet. In a similar way, Hanweir Garrison is situationally better than Goblin Rabblemaster against Punishing Fire decks, but Rabblemaster will always be the preferred threat against Storm-combo. This sort of builds on my previous point about the kind of consistency this deck needs. It isn't important in most games that the 2-mana removal I draw be named 'Sudden Shock' or 'Magma Jet' or 'Flame Burst'. What is important is that I can rely on starting with or drawing a 2-mana removal spell in the early turns.

So I agree with you that having 1 Magma Jet in the deck and concluding 'Well, I have the deck's removal taken care of!' is foolish, I am in less agreement that all the cards should be x4 or you're doing it wrong. As a corner case argument against that thinking, cards like Extirpate or Slaughter Games are more effective when every card has 3 other copies in the deck. Same with things like Meddling Mage. (I realize none of those cards are major players in Legacy)

Either way, I welcome the dialogue. :cool:

[apocolyps6]

frogger42, I think this is an interesting conversation about deck design and it should be happening somewhere. You shouldn't just 'go away' because you are in the minority here.

That being said, I'm also in agreement that while the 24-9 lists might homogenize games, they do not necessarily lead to optimal decklists.

What has also not yet been brought up in this discussion us the kind of selection/sequencing that is available to stompy decks. It is often the case that a 7 card opener is not necessary to win the game (unlike most blue decks where the 7 maximizes the power of Brainstorm and Force). The mulligan is an incredibly powerful card selection tool if you are able to play normal games of magic on 5 cards. In the same way, sequencing benefits from a wider choice of cards. If I play a T2 moon and have 3 ham sandwiches left in my hand, I'm probably better off if they are all different rather than all the same (for a card that is not always a 4of).

If your cards are all as close in power level and effect as possible, you are making less meaningful decisions per game. Things like mulligans, imprinting on chrome mox and sequencing start to matter a lot less.

There is also the argument for a diversity of effects. I've been messing with a vintage stompy list recently, and at one point I was playing 3 Torch Fiend 3 Sulfur Elemental. I would much rather draw 1 of each than two of one on average. There are plenty of these kinds of cards that do not necessarily get better in multiples.

Then there are indirect consequences such as the relative ease with which an opponent can play around the outs of our 24-9 deck.

[frogger42]

What has also not yet been brought up in this discussion us the kind of selection/sequencing that is available to stompy decks. It is often the case that a 7 card opener is not necessary to win the game (unlike most blue decks where the 7 maximizes the power of Brainstorm and Force). The mulligan is an incredibly powerful card selection tool if you are able to play normal games of magic on 5 cards. In the same way, sequencing benefits from a wider choice of cards. If I play a T2 moon and have 3 ham sandwiches left in my hand, I'm probably better off if they are all different rather than all the same (for a card that is not always a 4of).


Mulliganing into into gas I tend to find happens more around G2-3. A lot of the players at my LGS switch decks. And SCG Opens, GPs, you're realistically not going to know your G1 which cards are your ham sandwiches. I think in the rare instance that you know your opponent's deck for G1, and need to mull into something, either it's a bad MU, and you have to accept that every deck has its weakness. Or two, that maybe you are running the wrong cards in your MD. Sure, there are some MUs where Swords to Plowshares stinks, but you have to accept it given its power level. That might be a distant 3rd possibility.

My play style is a bit different - I've run a lot of decks that can't afford to mulligan (I brew weird stuff a lot) so I aggressively keep a lot of hands. So I don't use the mulligan all that much. Even so, that's one shot you have to "filter" your deck, and it comes at a huge expense, potentially costing you the game before you even start (ie if your 6 and 5 have no lands). The deck when it plays correctly, will play like those old 1998 decks - no cantrips, no fetches, etc. I think a decent maindeck will run those generic cards - like Flametongue Kavu, or Sudden Shock - and if you happen to be weak against tokens or something, now you have your games 2 and 3 to SB against them. Trying to be strong against everything all the time isn't going to happen. I think you have to hedge your bets, make tough decisions, and realize what in your meta you'll be weak against, and see if it's worth compensating in the SB to have a shot at that round.

And personally, I'd rather run 4 Sudden Shock over Magma Jet or a 2/2 split. My reasoning? Shock kills token generators right away (Y Pyro and Mentor), is almost impossible to Counterbalance, and kills SFM / Mother of Runes no questions asked. That's what I expect in my meta. It's not the "right" call necessarily all the time, but it's that kind of decision-making that you should be making before you sit down. And if Shock is "weak" vs Storm or something? Eh, it's not totally dead G1, and I'll just side it out games 2 and 3.

And another good reason to play Imp Recruiter. Even having just Revoker and the Nalaars opens up your lines of play immensely. It allows you to jam random niche 1-ofs and have no significant drawbacks in drawing your 1-of "oops, bad in this MU" guy. A great card, though not $200 great.

[frogger42]

Thanks for the advice, any thoughts on my main deck?

Hmm...
I'll be honest, I don't like Thunderbreak Regent. And for a few reasons. 1 - It's not a prison piece. It's ability is passive, it's not a proactive card; ie, it doesn't affect the opponent, other than being a vanilla beater, until the opponent decides to do something.
I'll actually say something weird and suggest jamming 4x Pia and Kia Nalaar, or whatever the card is. Why? It's still 4 power, it's also difficult to remove like Thunderbreak (it'll take a few spells to kill 3 dudes) and it's more proactive. It gives YOU the option to activate, and it's an incredibly powerful ability - get a 3 mana shock. Kill SFM, kill DRS (which you want to do under a Blood Moon). The drawback? It's legendary - but - you still get 2 more tokens when you cast Pia #2. So instead of 8 power in 2 Dragons, you get 6 power in 2 Legendaries. Very minor drawback, when you think of it.
It also eats extra Chrome Moxen, Chalices, etc. I honestly think 1 Pia is ideal - if you have 4x Imperial Recruiters - but whatever, 4 will do in a jiffy.

For all those other 1-ofs... I actually think it'd be cool to consolidate into 4x Flametongue Kavu. Seriously! It removes a blocker, other than Goyf, and will get your Hanweir / Rabblemasters through, help you generate more tokens. I think it's super underrated.

As for spells, up to you. I'd just jam something like Pyrokinesis, since you don't run Trinisphere. Fiery Confluence eats your tokens when you want to remove a blocker. Sudden Shock is also decent, like esp if you see a lot of Mother of Runes in your gaming store.

Just some thoughts, and whatever doesn't work this week, can be switched out next week.

[Zupponn]

If we're talking consistency, then running 4 Pia and Kiran is the worst thing I've ever heard.

Also, I remember running FTKs a few years back and they were highly underwhelming. The biggest problem is when they have an empty board and you have FTK in hand and you can't do anything. You can't afford to sit on your hands with this deck. Again, consistency.

On Imperial Recruiter: He's okay. Nothing special. Just a 1/1 that finds a dude that your opponent can counter. He gets better when you start hitting the late game, but with this deck if you haven't won by then then you've probably lost.

[apocolyps6]

frogger, is it true that you are mostly an angel/geddon/etc stompy player? If that is the case those decks aim to play a much longer game and the consistency stuff matters a lot more. In the red decks you can basically win a game with your opening hand. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm more of an admirer than a player of either archetype.

[square_two]

@square_two - you said you'd probably not jam the 3-4 copies of a (non-essential) card in an actual tournament. Why not? Is it because it's Legendary, too high on the manacurve, or just "eh." I'm just trying to bring up the point that, if you want to talk competitive construction on these threads, your deck has to find some consistency. From my little bit of deckbuilding experience, if you're struggling to find those 1-2 cards to fill those last 8 slots, the deck isn't really going to be competitive. You should have about 4 cards you want to jam in there, and limited slots; you should be making the hard decision of "these are all really great and powerful cards, but I literally don't have the room for X and Y." Throw them in the SB or more likely just drop them altogether.


What I meant was that, perhaps there is a new legendary card that costs 2RR (think like, Pia and Kiran). To test whether it is as good as I think it is, I could see myself testing with a full playset just to see what happens when it hits the board. I don't think I'd ever run 4 of a legendary card at 4cmc. If it was a different deck and the card was Thalia (the old one) then that is a different story since it acts as an early lock piece instead of being just a threat, and it comes down early enough that you really want to see her in your opening hand most of the time.

I think forcing full playsets isn't going to be optimal in a lot of situations. Yes, having only playsets is technically the best way to see each individual card in a deck without filtering, but what if the best configuration for this deck is 9 or 10 3-drop threats? The true optimal configuration for a meta (which is impossible to evaluate, at least until we have super duper AI) might lean towards 5-9 of a type of card, or perhaps 2-3. At least that's what I think.

[frogger42]

frogger, is it true that you are mostly an angel/geddon/etc stompy player? If that is the case those decks aim to play a much longer game and the consistency stuff matters a lot more. In the red decks you can basically win a game with your opening hand. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm more of an admirer than a player of either archetype.

Blood Moon being CMC 3 makes it generally a turn quicker. And you generally want to cast Armageddon after your opponent has 2-3 lands. The play style is super similar, though, and while some hands Dragon Stompy have are quicker than Angel / Geddon stompy (mostly b/c of Simian Spirit Guide), games end generally around the same turn, like 4-5 (or you have an obv unbeatable board state by then). Drag-on games past like turn 7, I'd say white has the advantage with SFM.

But basically, same premise - drop prison piece, follow with fattie finishers. Use unfair mana advantages, muahahaha.

So drop Chalice / Trini / Thalia II (or Aven Mindcensor, eh) and get there. Or drop Chalice / Blood Moon / Magus of Moon get there. Trini is obv a lot more live with Armageddon, so I count it for White but not Red. Both decks ask "Turn 1 Force?" pretty hard. Still, if they have the counter, now you have a game on your hands.

I mostly play Stax, actually, which is a similar manabase (Mox Diamond usually, and sol-lands), Chalice, and generally the grindiest of control decks. Usually PW'ers to finish, instead of creatures (and you have plenty more turns to activate the PW'ers). But I've done well with Stompy, Stax, and even Frogmite to some extent.

My friend splashes white in his list for SFM. But same 8 Moons, 4 Chalice, 4 Chrome and Spirit Guides - and he has plenty of grindy games, even with an occasional free win here and there. Red can win right away on T1, but not a significant % to make it a Turn 1 deck. You still generally have to play a game of magic.

[frogger42]

What I meant was that, perhaps there is a new legendary card that costs 2RR (think like, Pia and Kiran). To test whether it is as good as I think it is, I could see myself testing with a full playset just to see what happens when it hits the board. I don't think I'd ever run 4 of a legendary card at 4cmc. If it was a different deck and the card was Thalia (the old one) then that is a different story since it acts as an early lock piece instead of being just a threat, and it comes down early enough that you really want to see her in your opening hand most of the time.

I think forcing full playsets isn't going to be optimal in a lot of situations. Yes, having only playsets is technically the best way to see each individual card in a deck without filtering, but what if the best configuration for this deck is 9 or 10 3-drop threats? The true optimal configuration for a meta (which is impossible to evaluate, at least until we have super duper AI) might lean towards 5-9 of a type of card, or perhaps 2-3. At least that's what I think.

I get the mana curve argument, too. But the dude's list has 4 Thunderbreak Regent. I'd jam 4 Nalaar parents in a heartbeat over that, any day of the week.

[CovenantElite30]

So I went 4-1 tonight to cash in my local legacy fnm. I'll write a quick report and post my list at the end.

R1: 2-1 Vs Grixis Delver - Won with lock beats, the game I lost was due to flooding.
R2: 2-1 Vs UR Delever - Lost game 1 to a fast delver, Won other games on chalice and Trinisphere.
I will say game 2 I won with a top deck Avaricious Dragon that he could deal with. I just
kept drawing gas with that card.
R3: 0-2 Vs Miracles :-( - Both games lost to flooding out on lands :-( Nothing to say here. Keep a hand with 4 lands
probably should have, but had a chalice and 2 threats that he dealt with and then drew nothing but lands
for 5 turns.
R4: 2-0 Vs Sultai Opposition - Blood moon followed by a threat won me both games.
R5: 2-0 Vs Maverick - Same plan blood moon into a big threat.

Takeaways from tonight... Flying dragons are difficult for most legacys decks to deal with. I found myself in both Miracles games wanting to draw Collective Defiance but never did. I would probably go up to two of them. Also Sudden Shock was surprisingly good, i got to kill multiple mentors and a couple of Deathrites. Side note... Anarchy was supposed to be a 3rd Sulfur Elemental but my card shop didn't have any.

Creatures (21)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Avaricious Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent
Spells (20)
3 Sudden Shock
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Blood Moon
1 Collective Defiance
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Koth of the Hammer
Lands (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Sulfur Elemental
3 Trinisphere
1 Anarchy
76 Cards Total

[Ace/Homebrew]

Congrats man! :laugh:

61 cards, eh?
To be honest, I never noticed the Arid Mesa when you posted the previous list.

You are a land fatter than the list typically runs using x4 SSG and Mox. That might have contributed to the flooding.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/126/777/636084558279681943.jpeg

This has some potential!

[CovenantElite30]

Congrats man! [emoji23]

61 cards, eh?
To be honest, I never noticed the Arid Mesa when you posted the previous list.

You are a land fatter than the list typically runs using x4 SSG and Mox. That might have contributed to the flooding.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/126/777/636084558279681943.jpeg

This has some potential!
Thank You, yeah I didnt original mention this but in my testing I found I had to mulligian a lot due to not having lands. So my 61st card was the fetch land. Whats funny is I still had to mulligian a lot at fnm. So thinking of dropping 2 basics, adding another fetch and have the 61st card be Collective Defiance.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What's the reasoning behind using fetches? The less fuel available for DRS and Goyf, the better I'd think... Just a reminder, deck thinning is a myth. (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/91308-fetch-lands-deck-thinning-is-a-myth)

[CovenantElite30]

What's the reasoning behind using fetches? The less fuel available for DRS and Goyf, the better I'd think... Just a reminder, deck thinning is a myth. (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/91308-fetch-lands-deck-thinning-is-a-myth)

Less for the "Thinning" more for the shuffling.

Your probably right on the food for the DRS but only have 2 in the deck and the odds not having a bloodmoon affect on the board are slim.

Maybe it's just in my head but I feel like if your flooding, having a couple of shuffles should help.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Well unless you just fired off a Magma Jet, the cards on top of your library should be completely random. So whether you shuffle a million times, or not at all that should remain true.

But as we just confirmed here, this is 'Murica and you can do as you'd like. :wink:

[LeoCop 90]

The new dragon would be so so good.... if it had 4 toughness. It has a lot more potential than thunderbreak regent, but dying to bolt is just lame for a 4 drop...

[Zupponn]

Yep. It's probably worse than RPD.

[CovenantElite30]

Did we just get a new creature for the deck? Hmm....

What do you guys think?

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/pianalaar.jpg

[ZTurgeon]

Did we just get a new creature for the deck? Hmm....

What do you guys think?

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/pianalaar.jpg

This feels real. It's reasonable all around but that last ability means that stabilizing is impossible. Tossing away an extra chalice or Mox to make a Gof unable to block means that you get to start the race, and they can't race back against cards like rabblemaster or garrison.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yeah, the deck needed an incidental way to make creatures unblockable. I figured it would show up on a 'command' style spell, but this also seems good. Hopefully Kiran is still around (and is on a playable card) cause then we can play Nalaar Stompy. :cool:

[ZTurgeon]

Yeah, the deck needed an incidental way to make creatures unblockable. I figured it would show up on a 'command' style spell, but this also seems good. Hopefully Kiran is still around (and is on a playable card) cause then we can play Nalaar Stompy. :cool:

He's pretty confirmed to be dead. As he died on screen.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Oh well! :rolleyes:
Here's hoping Chandra, Torch of Defiance is playable for us.

[LeoCop 90]

I would really love a chandra that costs 3 mana... but they already spoiled saheeli who costs 3, so i'm not optimistic

[CovenantElite30]

Boom! This will be replacing the other chandra in my deck.

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/chandratorchofdefiance.jpg

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/chandratorchofdefiance.jpg

Really like new Chandra. All 4 abilities are relevant in a Legacy game.
I'm curious about the timing on the damage done to each opponent from her first +1 though... Does it happen right away or at end of turn?

Edit:
Looks like the other Chandra that exiles cards and stuff like Prophetic Flamespeaker specify that you can cast the exiled card until end of turn. New Chandra makes you decide whether or not to cast it upon reveal.

[CovenantElite30]

Really like new Chandra. All 4 abilities are relevant in a Legacy game.
I'm curious about the timing on the damage done to each opponent from her first +1 though... Does it happen right away or at end of turn?

Edit:
Looks like the other Chandra that exiles cards and stuff like Prophetic Flamespeaker specify that you can cast the exiled card until end of turn. New Chandra makes you decide whether or not to cast it upon reveal.
The only difference from new Chandra +1 is that you cant play lands off of her +1. I really think you could play this new Chandra as a 4 of in this deck. What does everyone else think?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

[Koby]

Boom! This will be replacing the other chandra in my deck.

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/chandratorchofdefiance.jpg

Thats the sad thind: she's only marginally better than her previous clones in the context of Dragon Stompy. I think the new mix for walkers is something like:

2-3 Koth
2-3 Chandra ToD
0-1 Sarkhan Dragonspeaker
5 total walkers

[LeoCop 90]

Well, she can deal 4 damage to a creature... that's not marginal. She's an awesome card all around.

In other news, we now have a critical mass of good planeswalkers that can win under ensnaring bridge lock. It's now possible to build a deck with 4 bridge, 4 koth and 4 new chandra maindeck, going even more towards the "prison" style.

[CovenantElite30]

Thats the sad thind: she's only marginally better than her previous clones in the context of Dragon Stompy. I think the new mix for walkers is something like:

2-3 Koth
2-3 Chandra ToD
0-1 Sarkhan Dragonspeaker
5 total walkers


I wouldn't only play 3 Chandra ToD and no other Planswalkers. But my build is a bit more burn.

I could definitely see a less creature base and more Planswalkers.

At that point though it's no longer a Dragon Stompy deck and more like a Walker Stompy deck.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Well, she can deal 4 damage to a creature... that's not marginal. She's an awesome card all around.
Unfortunately 4 damage doesn't really kill anything 3 damage wouldn't have. So she probably doesn't help us against Goyf.
Her 'exile draw' (we need to come up with a term for this!) is actually very good against opposing planeswalkers. Before only Koth was really good at dealing with a Lili or Jace. But now Chandra can apply pressure against them in a way previous incarnations could not.


In other news, we now have a critical mass of good planeswalkers that can win under ensnaring bridge lock. It's now possible to build a deck with 4 bridge, 4 koth and 4 new chandra maindeck, going even more towards the "prison" style.
This is promising! Although I'm not on the x4 bandwagon with her at this point. I'm actually most excited about her '+1> Add :r::r:' ability. :smile:

[ZTurgeon]

Unfortunately 4 damage doesn't really kill anything 3 damage wouldn't have. So she probably doesn't help us against Goyf.


While this is true, we haven't even had that option on a 4 mana walker before. And while 4 may not kill a Goyf on it's own, it does make it harder for the Goyf to block effectively. If I attack with A rabblemaster and a token into the 4/5 goyf, the opponent now needs to put in a lot more thought to what they could be losing by blocking.

[Octopusman]

'exile draw'

MaRo calls this "Impulse Draw".

[Begle1]

I loved playing this deck full of Koth's and Chandra's against Miracles.

That match-up should be getting even more fun now. Just watch out for the Sanctum Prelate naming four I guess...

[Ace/Homebrew]

MaRo calls this "Impulse Draw".
Hmmm... I guess that's fine. Makes me think of Impulse though.
Looks like he's getting that name from Act on Impulse.

I think I like Prophetic Draw more (Prophetic Flamespeaker), but maybe that's a tad grandiose. Ultimately it'll be whatever the public adopts.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm very smitten by both the new Chandra and Madcap Experiment.

On one hand, traditional Dragon Stompy lists can simply cut all artifacts in order to play 4 Madcap Experiment and 2 Platinum Emporium and abuse the card rather well. But alternatively, do you think something like this looks decent as a starting point to try these cards out?



// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
2 Collective Defiance
2 Fiery Confluence

This is a very rough and early list.

[Captain Hammer]

To abuse the brokeness of Madcap Experiment, perhaps it would be better to go all the way and borrow more elements from Big Red.

Here is a sample list...


// Lands
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Worldspine Wurm

// Spells
4 Faithless Looting
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

//Sideboard
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull


...that utilizes a transformative sideboard to revert back into a more traditional list against matchups where Moon effects are game breaking. It also brings in Godo+Batterskull against matchups where excess lifeloss from Madcap might be a concern.

+4 Blood Moon
+4 Magus of the Moon
+2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
+2 Batterskull
-4 Through the Breach
-4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
-3 Worldspine Wurm
-1 Sneak Attack

[Gheizen64]

I think a list playing pyrostatic pillar in place of CotV if you play Madcap is passable, especially since you have lots of 4+ cards. Alternatively, just relying on 8 moons, but i'm afraid that is weak vs cantrip and combo lists. Something like:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
10 Mountain

4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Seething Song
3 Magus of the Moon

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Myr Battlesphere
4 Sneak Attack
4 Madcap Experiment
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull


Some preliminary testing indicate: with 10 artifacts, Madcap will kill you. And it will kill you OFTEN. You probably need to stay on the more safe side of 15+ artifacts. The new Gearhulk may be crucial here, especially if it's a pseudo-inferno titan. Possible alternatives are running the new ghirapur orrery as card draw (but this may be super good for miracle), the 4 mana card draw portal, some crucibles, lodestone golem, or whatever. I wouldn't advise going for more uncastable fatties, but that's my preference to have less shitty hands.

I was very skeptical of it, but the new chandra seems insane. Being able to -3 the turn it come out, then ramp into a fatty the turn afterward, and then alternatively draw cards and accellerate fatties is perfect for this kind of deck.

[ZTurgeon]

I think a list playing pyrostatic pillar in place of CotV if you play Madcap is passable, especially since you have lots of 4+ cards. Alternatively, just relying on 8 moons, but i'm afraid that is weak vs cantrip and combo lists. Something like:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
10 Mountain

4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Seething Song
3 Magus of the Moon

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Myr Battlesphere
4 Sneak Attack
4 Madcap Experiment
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull


Some preliminary testing indicate: with 10 artifacts, Madcap will kill you. And it will kill you OFTEN. You probably need to stay on the more safe side of 15+ artifacts. The new Gearhulk may be crucial here, especially if it's a pseudo-inferno titan. Possible alternatives are running the new ghirapur orrery as card draw (but this may be super good for miracle), the 4 mana card draw portal, some crucibles, lodestone golem, or whatever. I wouldn't advise going for more uncastable fatties, but that's my preference to have less shitty hands.

I was very skeptical of it, but the new chandra seems insane. Being able to -3 the turn it come out, then ramp into a fatty the turn afterward, and then alternatively draw cards and accellerate fatties is perfect for this kind of deck.

Losing Chrome Mox is just too much to ask. It's cute and can lead to some busted things, but at the end of the day, it slows the deck down and that's the death knell for a deck like this.

Also, if you are intent on doing it, you could just have 1-2 copies of Platinum Emperion. Its just inside of the long term castable range and costs zero life off of Madcap. You can just have the two in the deck and then it will always come into play for no life.

[Captain Hammer]

Gheizen64, Thanks for the excellent feedback. I like Pyrostatic Pillar and Myr Battlesphere. Both synergize with Madcap very well and they are both hardcastable. Even if Sneak Attacked, Myr swings for 12 damage immediately and leaves behind 4 1/1s.

The comboesque list I posted above is not slow. Anything but. It tends to win many games on turn 1 or 2 or turn 3 at the latest. And it has a ton of consistency and redundancy that will let it take over the midgame if the deck gets disrupted to the point that it can't close the deal in the first couple of turns. This more than makes up for the risk that Madcap poses IMO.

The reason why your build is slow and not winning on turn 1 or 2 is because you cut Emrakul/Blightsteel/Worldspine/Sneak Attack/Breach from the list there by taking a turn 1 or turn 2 deck to a turn 3 or turn 4 deck.

If you do opt to go with a slower build like the one posted and cut out Emrakul/Blightsteel/Worldspine/Sneak Attack/Breach from the list, I would highly encourage running 2 Platinum Emporium as the only artifacts in the deck. They are hardcastable and cancel out the life loss from Madcap entirely.

[Gheizen64]

After a bit of testing, i've settled on this list:


4 Lodestone Golem
2 Sundering Titan
2 Myr Battlesphere
3 Batterskull
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Blood Moon
4 Madcap Experiment

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Sandstone Needle
14 Mountain

Chandra is really good: it make everything up to 7 castable easily, and if casted early she is like a worse thran dynamo that remove a critter when it ETB and then draw card and win the game late when you don't need the mana. Song and Simians are the usual accellerants to have her, madcap or Lodestone out early. Madcap experiment can go from a one-sided armageddon + 7/10 to at worst lodestone golem 5-8. I heard playing 8 lodestone golem is fun for your opponent. It could even be possible to still play chalice as a 3-of here, and just accept the fact that your madcap will fizzle about 1 in 6 times, which could be acceptable given the average outcome is still absurd. Alternatively, 3-of trinispheres make even the worst madcap still passable, while giving fits to your combo/cantrip opponents. I'll probably just play 4 trinisphere in the side and accept that G1 vs combo is a bye.

It's a really fun deck. It play a bit like all-in red, but it's much more redundant as madcap require 0 cards in hand.

[Captain Hammer]

The list I posted below is not slow. Anything but. It tends to win many games on turn 1 or 2 or turn 3 at the latest. What Madcap adds to it is consistency and redundancy that will let it take over the midgame if the deck gets disrupted to the point that it can't close the deal in the first couple of turns. This more than makes up for the risk that Madcap poses IMO.

If you opt to play a slower build as opposed to the build I posted below, I like the suggestion made earlier to run Pyrostatic Pillar maindeck. Pillar plays a role similar to Chalice.

I settled on a final version of the deck...



// Lands
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Combustible Gearhulk
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Worldspine Wurm

// Other Maindeckable Cards
Faithless Looting
Pyrostatic Pillar
Chaos Warp
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan



Outdated: Here is an older list I tried before settling on the above list.... The old list was based on the suggestion by Cire to test if Platinum Emporium could be played in lieu of all other artifacts not named Blightsteel.

// Lands
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Platinum Emporium

// Spells
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast



While such a list looks promising due to it's speed, it also has a harder time recovering if the initial threat gets StPed/FoWed. The first list had the added resilience of being able to hard cast several of it's game breaking threats even if the initial threat got countered or removed. Alternatively, the list could play Faithless Looting or Chandra, Torch of Defiance in lieu of Desperate Ritual in order to given it a bit more resiliency. This way, it has a better chance of recovering if the first threat gets forced or removed.

I am going to stop posting further updates in this thread since this deck has evolved to a point where it no longer fit's the description Big Red. I made a separate thread in order to avoid derailing this thread with my build... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31000-Deck-Madcap-Sneak-Attack&p=969124#post969124

[AceOfJacks]

Tonight I played the following list:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
1 Hanweir Battlements

4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sudden Shock

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Shattering Spree
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge

Lotus Petals instead of Chrome Mox, mostly because I do not own Chrome Mox until they arrive in the mail next week.
Shaman of the Great Hunt is a flex slot, will become a different thing asap. I sideboarded them out every game.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar is good for providing fliers to chump with, but not much else. Leaning towards cutting these as well.
Scab-Clan Berserker is a meta call. It gives extra storm hate, but it's downside is double red in the cost.

8 players at LGS today.
Rd 1, Doomsday. G1, Magus of the Moon, Chalice of the Void @1. Win via combat damage. G2, sb out 2x shaman, 1x pia, sb in 3x trinisphere. Trinisphere, magus of the moon, goblin rabblemaster seals the match. 2-0 match, 1-0 total.

Rd 2, R/G Lands. G1, Magus of the Moon prevents him from playing anything important, and he draws 0 Punishing Fire. Chalice @1 stops his 1x Vortex (which would have been pretty good, considering he has DD combo in play, but as mountains.) Sb out 2x shaman, 2x pia, 1x garrison, sb in 3x shattering spree, 2x ensnaring bridge. G2, mulligan to 6. He leads with grove, I play chalice @0. He topdecks mox diamond, and flings it across the table in disgust. He plays a land and passes. I play magus of the moon, which he punishing fires. I play a second, he punishing fires again, and follows up with tireless tracker. I sudden shock the tracker. 2 turns of him porting and wastelanding me, and I drop Blood Moon. He dies to rabblemaster holding 2x mox diamond and a krosan grip. 2-0 match, 2-0 total.

Rd 3, Grixis Delver. Opponent has a good start, killing some of my creatures with Lightning Bolts and Dismembers. His removal is better than mine for this game, and he crushes with Pyromancer and Gurmag Angler before I can stabilize. I draw Pia the turn before I die, but he has me at 2 life with 5 creatures in play. Math dictates I die either way. Sb out 2 Shaman, 1 Pia, sb in 3x trinisphere. I open with Chalice @1. He plays land, pass. I play Magus, he plays Pyromancer. I play a Trinisphere, and he cannot deal with Magus in time. I wipe him out with Garrison and Rabblemaster.

G3, I pretend to sb, but shuffle in 15 cards and pull out the same 15. This was the best opening I have experienced in a long time. He is on the play, and casts turn 1 Gitaxian Probe at me. He sees, "Cavern, Magus, Chalice, 2x SSG, 2x Lotus Petal." The people watching this match laugh loudly as they see my opponents jaw drop. I draw a Blood Moon, play Cavern, 2x Petal, sac 2x Petal to play Chalice @1, he thinks for a long time, returns his Underground Sea to daze. I tap Cavern to pay for daze. Chalice resolves, I pass. He wastelands the cavern. I draw another land, play it, cast Garrison, resolves. He plays U Sea, passes. I draw, attempt to attack, he taps U Sea and tries to Bolt the Garrison ... he thinks it's a Magus, but I point out that 1- U Sea is an actual U Sea, no red mana, and 2 - Chalice @1 is still out. He ends up with a Pyromancer, but by then I have Magus, 6x Human tokens, and a Garrison. He dies to combat damage. 2-1 round, 3-0 total.


Afterthoughts,
1- Land issues. If you don't get the right mix of lands, you can get mana screwed easily.
2- Pia and Shaman do not need to be in the deck at these slots. Maybe Koth, maybe 2 mana removal spells, like Mizzium Mortars. It deals with Thought-Knot Seer and plays well with Chalice. At least until Kaladesh comes out, and we get new yummy Chandra.

[CovenantElite30]

Tonight I played the following list:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
1 Hanweir Battlements

4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sudden Shock

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Shattering Spree
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge

Lotus Petals instead of Chrome Mox, mostly because I do not own Chrome Mox until they arrive in the mail next week.
Shaman of the Great Hunt is a flex slot, will become a different thing asap. I sideboarded them out every game.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar is good for providing fliers to chump with, but not much else. Leaning towards cutting these as well.
Scab-Clan Berserker is a meta call. It gives extra storm hate, but it's downside is double red in the cost.

8 players at LGS today.
Rd 1, Doomsday. G1, Magus of the Moon, Chalice of the Void @1. Win via combat damage. G2, sb out 2x shaman, 1x pia, sb in 3x trinisphere. Trinisphere, magus of the moon, goblin rabblemaster seals the match. 2-0 match, 1-0 total.

Rd 2, R/G Lands. G1, Magus of the Moon prevents him from playing anything important, and he draws 0 Punishing Fire. Chalice @1 stops his 1x Vortex (which would have been pretty good, considering he has DD combo in play, but as mountains.) Sb out 2x shaman, 2x pia, 1x garrison, sb in 3x shattering spree, 2x ensnaring bridge. G2, mulligan to 6. He leads with grove, I play chalice @0. He topdecks mox diamond, and flings it across the table in disgust. He plays a land and passes. I play magus of the moon, which he punishing fires. I play a second, he punishing fires again, and follows up with tireless tracker. I sudden shock the tracker. 2 turns of him porting and wastelanding me, and I drop Blood Moon. He dies to rabblemaster holding 2x mox diamond and a krosan grip. 2-0 match, 2-0 total.

Rd 3, Grixis Delver. Opponent has a good start, killing some of my creatures with Lightning Bolts and Dismembers. His removal is better than mine for this game, and he crushes with Pyromancer and Gurmag Angler before I can stabilize. I draw Pia the turn before I die, but he has me at 2 life with 5 creatures in play. Math dictates I die either way. Sb out 2 Shaman, 1 Pia, sb in 3x trinisphere. I open with Chalice @1. He plays land, pass. I play Magus, he plays Pyromancer. I play a Trinisphere, and he cannot deal with Magus in time. I wipe him out with Garrison and Rabblemaster.

G3, I pretend to sb, but shuffle in 15 cards and pull out the same 15. This was the best opening I have experienced in a long time. He is on the play, and casts turn 1 Gitaxian Probe at me. He sees, "Cavern, Magus, Chalice, 2x SSG, 2x Lotus Petal." The people watching this match laugh loudly as they see my opponents jaw drop. I draw a Blood Moon, play Cavern, 2x Petal, sac 2x Petal to play Chalice @1, he thinks for a long time, returns his Underground Sea to daze. I tap Cavern to pay for daze. Chalice resolves, I pass. He wastelands the cavern. I draw another land, play it, cast Garrison, resolves. He plays U Sea, passes. I draw, attempt to attack, he taps U Sea and tries to Bolt the Garrison ... he thinks it's a Magus, but I point out that 1- U Sea is an actual U Sea, no red mana, and 2 - Chalice @1 is still out. He ends up with a Pyromancer, but by then I have Magus, 6x Human tokens, and a Garrison. He dies to combat damage. 2-1 round, 3-0 total.


Afterthoughts,
1- Land issues. If you don't get the right mix of lands, you can get mana screwed easily.
2- Pia and Shaman do not need to be in the deck at these slots. Maybe Koth, maybe 2 mana removal spells, like Mizzium Mortars. It deals with Thought-Knot Seer and plays well with Chalice. At least until Kaladesh comes out, and we get new yummy Chandra.

Great write up!

How was Hanweir Battlements ? Did you ever get to use the has ability?

Did you like having Cavern of Souls in the deck?

How many new Chandra's would you play in this list?

[AceOfJacks]

I have 1x Battlements just in case things go horribly awry, and I need to meld the dude. I drew the land once, and it didn't matter, due to Magus AND Blood Moon both being on the table. I wouldn't run more than 1, but you have to consider I played this deck a total of 6 matches so far. 3x yesterday, 3x last week. I seriously doubt that 6 matches is enough sample data to give me correct numbers for that 1 land. However, from what I have seen playing this style of deck, that 1 land will be used for non mana abilities maybe 1 out of 200 matches.

Cavern is pretty much required if you want to stick a t1 or t2 Magus, because the density of blue decks in the current metagame is incredibly high. When DREGDE is running Force of Will maindeck, you know people have control issues. Every time I play against a blue deck, I feel like I'm sitting across from a Catholic School teacher Nun who is holding a wooden ruler, ready to slap you on the knuckles and scream, "NO!" whenever you cast a spell.

Chandra looks fun, but the planeswalker rule, the 4cmc, and the double red in the cmc makes it tough. Maybe it will get easier if I run Chrome Mox instead, but I also did a mental experiment as I played. I asked myself, "What would this hand look like if these Lotus Petals were Chrome Mox?" The answer was, "This hand is bad." Every red card in the hand was a threat that I wanted to cast, or a Simian Spirit Guide to help cast said threat. And every threat needed to be answered by your opponent, or else the game would swing out of reach. So, knowing this, I would probably run 2 Chandra upon release. You might have problems casting her unless you run 4 and expect to pitch 1 to a Mox, so if you don't want dead cards in your hand, run less copies, and use the other 2 slots for something else, like a 2-3 cmc spell. Maybe even a removal spell to deal with those Thought-Knot Seers.

Side note, currently, every creature in the deck dies to Lightning Bolt. The best option is to hope that we land enough threats so that the opponent cannot Bolt all of them. Punishing Fire was incredibly annoying, almost to a point where I thought I would lose that game against Lands last night. The actual Blood Moon kept his Port and Grove shut off in the end, however, while his Grove was online, it was a scary board state for a while.

[AceOfJacks]

Tried 2x Mizzium Mortars instead of Shamans tonight.

Rd 1, loss to Merfolk. G1, 2x True-Name Nemesis is brutal. G2, 2x True-Name Nemesis is brutal again, but this time with lords. Honest opinion, our deck needs more creature control in general, but TNN seems like auto lose when your opponent has blockers for the rabble or hanweir.

Rd 2, win against enchantress. Game 1, opponent was locked out of white mana. Turn 1 chalice @1, turn 2 magus of the moon, turn 3 Rabblemaster, turn 4 hanweir. Sb out 2x mortars, 4x sudden shock, sb in trinisphere and shattering spree (couldn't think of anything else to sb in.) Turn 1 chalice @1, turn 2 blood moon, turn 3 trinisphere, but no pressure on opponent. Opponent plays living wish for reclamation sage, i play rabblemaster. He destroys blood moon, which turns on serra's sanctum. I play second rabblemaster. He draws sphere of safety, but messes up with math and is 1 short to play it after playing another spell. I draw 3rd rabblemaster and he scoops.

Rd 3, loss to burn. G1, opp has all the 1 mana burn spells, and 2x price of progress seals my fate. Sb out 4x blood moon, 1x magus, sb in 3x trinisphere 2x sulfur. Chalice and trinisphere slow him down long enough for me to rabble and hanweir his face. G3 sb out sulfur and sb in shattering spree, since i saw ensnaring bridge from him g2. I mull to 5, get no lock pieces, but turn 1 dude to try to race. He clears my board and wins with goblin guide and Swiftspear. I had no red sources except 1x petal and 1x ssg.

R4, loss to dnt. G1, i was on the play and could have won, but i misplayed horribly. Turn 1 chalice 1, followed by chalice 0. Should have been chalice 1 then chalice 2. I messed up, but meh, dnt is usually an annoying matchup for me anyway.st strike plus sword of fire and ice usually wrecks me anyway. G2, had no chalices, but I had removal in my hand. I tried to keep his board under control, but the ability to bounce batterskull repeatedly made him win. I could have played it better, but honestly I just gave up halfway through the match. Also, I hate DnT. I just hate it.

Total, 1-3. I SERIOUSLY think we need more removal. Against any deck with lots of basics, we just lose. Their creatures are better, and they have tricks that we do not. Merfolk has card draw in the form of Silvergill, DnT has Stoneforge and Recruiters, Burn can clear our boards and attack with a single 2/2 ... we need to be able to deal with our opponents creatures more efficiently. 4x Sudden Shock is just not enough.

[ZTurgeon]

Tried 2x Mizzium Mortars instead of Shamans tonight.

Rd 1, loss to Merfolk. G1, 2x True-Name Nemesis is brutal. G2, 2x True-Name Nemesis is brutal again, but this time with lords. Honest opinion, our deck needs more creature control in general, but TNN seems like auto lose when your opponent has blockers for the rabble or hanweir.

Rd 2, win against enchantress. Game 1, opponent was locked out of white mana. Turn 1 chalice @1, turn 2 magus of the moon, turn 3 Rabblemaster, turn 4 hanweir. Sb out 2x mortars, 4x sudden shock, sb in trinisphere and shattering spree (couldn't think of anything else to sb in.) Turn 1 chalice @1, turn 2 blood moon, turn 3 trinisphere, but no pressure on opponent. Opponent plays living wish for reclamation sage, i play rabblemaster. He destroys blood moon, which turns on serra's sanctum. I play second rabblemaster. He draws sphere of safety, but messes up with math and is 1 short to play it after playing another spell. I draw 3rd rabblemaster and he scoops.

Rd 3, loss to burn. G1, opp has all the 1 mana burn spells, and 2x price of progress seals my fate. Sb out 4x blood moon, 1x magus, sb in 3x trinisphere 2x sulfur. Chalice and trinisphere slow him down long enough for me to rabble and hanweir his face. G3 sb out sulfur and sb in shattering spree, since i saw ensnaring bridge from him g2. I mull to 5, get no lock pieces, but turn 1 dude to try to race. He clears my board and wins with goblin guide and Swiftspear. I had no red sources except 1x petal and 1x ssg.

R4, loss to dnt. G1, i was on the play and could have won, but i misplayed horribly. Turn 1 chalice 1, followed by chalice 0. Should have been chalice 1 then chalice 2. I messed up, but meh, dnt is usually an annoying matchup for me anyway.st strike plus sword of fire and ice usually wrecks me anyway. G2, had no chalices, but I had removal in my hand. I tried to keep his board under control, but the ability to bounce batterskull repeatedly made him win. I could have played it better, but honestly I just gave up halfway through the match. Also, I hate DnT. I just hate it.

Total, 1-3. I SERIOUSLY think we need more removal. Against any deck with lots of basics, we just lose. Their creatures are better, and they have tricks that we do not. Merfolk has card draw in the form of Silvergill, DnT has Stoneforge and Recruiters, Burn can clear our boards and attack with a single 2/2 ... we need to be able to deal with our opponents creatures more efficiently. 4x Sudden Shock is just not enough.

Your playing the version with just beaters. Play the Moggcatcher version and that doesn't happen as having Siege Gangs and Moggcatchers help fill that roll.

Additionally, I dont think you need more removal. Merfolk, Burn and DnT are among the harder matchups for this deck. Also playing petal over Chrome Mox makes you way more vulnerable to decks that don't die to one card.

[frogger42]

Your playing the version with just beaters. Play the Moggcatcher version and that doesn't happen as having Siege Gangs and Moggcatchers help fill that roll.

Additionally, I dont think you need more removal. Merfolk, Burn and DnT are among the harder matchups for this deck. Also playing petal over Chrome Mox makes you way more vulnerable to decks that don't die to one card.

Agree. Chrome Mox is a necessary evil in mono-color stompy. You get an opening hand with 2x Lotus Petal and 1 land, you will probably lose. 2x Chrome and 1 land, it's bad, but you have the potential to keep (T1 Blood Moon, T2 Blood Moon again - instead of T1 Blood Moon, T2 nothing).

Straight up removal in a Stompy deck is awkward. Generally, you want lock pieces - something like Humility to "remove" the threat of creatures, or The Abyss to remove repeatedly. Sudden Shock is and always has been sub-par to the semi-prison strategy. Ideally, you'd have removal flexible enough to turn into a win con or lock piece. New Chandra would be perfect at that - it's flexible removal that can play another role. Sudden Shock can kinda be "removal or win con", but a one-shot effect in a deck that wants repeatable effects every turn... sub-par. Prison can take several turns to lock someone out, so Planeswalkers or Hanweir/Rabblerabble, Equipment (Jitte/SoFI), other cards that give you more effects each turn... that's where you ideally want to be at.

So yes, I'm saying something like Chandra / Pia and Kiran Nalaar / SoFI > Sudden Shock. Given the more drawn-out nature of stompy decks.

[AceOfJacks]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Grenzo? Hitting your opponents with 4 creatures in one turn, exiling 4 cards that they don't get back ... sounds more "fun" than "good" but for some reason I think it's hilarious to "eat" your opponents answers while you smack them in the face.

Also, on a more serious note, I got my Chrome Moxen in the mail, so tomorrow night I will try them out.
Proposed list:


4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Sudden Shock
4 Blood Moon

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Shattering Spree
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge

If this is the configuration that I use until Kaladesh, the Pia and Kiran will be turned into the new Pia Nalaar, she costs 1 less and her unblockable ability sounds too good to pass up. Also, with that unblockable ability, I wonder if Hangarback Walker would be a good addition. It gives multiple uses of her ability, and leaves chump blockers behind.


EDIT: Nobody showed up for the tournament. I guess I will have to wait until next week.

[Zupponn]

Your playing the version with just beaters. Play the Moggcatcher version and that doesn't happen as having Siege Gangs and Moggcatchers help fill that roll.

Additionally, I dont think you need more removal. Merfolk, Burn and DnT are among the harder matchups for this deck. Also playing petal over Chrome Mox makes you way more vulnerable to decks that don't die to one card.
One nice thing about the goblin version is that you don't need to attack to kill your opponent. Because of this, against merfolk we can easily side in Ensnaring Bridge and steal the game if it lands.

I'll also agree that DnT is a horrible matchup, but not because they run basics like AceOfJacks mentioned. Their deck can just shut down our cards with mom and revoker backed by heavy land disruption, which just turns our deck off unless we draw well. Anarchy, Pyrokinesis, and Sulfur Elemental all work well here out of the sideboard. I'm running a 2/2/1 split between the three at the moment.

Burn is in a funny place. I don't think that it's unfavorable if you run 3Sphere and Chalice. It might even be favorable in that case.

The more we try to be 3 drop aggro and less big red prison the worse spell based aggro matchups like burn and storm are going to be. This is why I feel that getting away from our roots too much puts us in a poor spot and makes me really dislike the idea of cutting 3Sphere. I feel that we can give a little in our main vs fair decks since the goblin version can grind pretty hard. Instead, lets take all precautions to crush the unfair decks with moons, chalices, and spheres.

[frogger42]

The more we try to be 3 drop aggro and less big red prison the worse spell based aggro matchups like burn and storm are going to be. This is why I feel that getting away from our roots too much puts us in a poor spot and makes me really dislike the idea of cutting 3Sphere. I feel that we can give a little in our main vs fair decks since the goblin version can grind pretty hard. Instead, lets take all precautions to crush the unfair decks with moons, chalices, and spheres.

I'm not sure why that would be. Could you explain your reasoning for this statement? It seems like hitting more 3-drops instead of 4-5 drops would just make you quicker and more efficient. Most of those 4-5 drops were big dumb beaters, anyway, not prison pieces - trading them for 3-drop beaters just hits me as being... much better. In no possible way worse.
As for Burn, they really don't care about Trinisphere. Generally, they land a bolt or two before Trini hits, and then keep non-interacting with you with burn spells when they hit 3 lands.

[Koby]

I'm not sure why that would be. Could you explain your reasoning for this statement? It seems like hitting more 3-drops instead of 4-5 drops would just make you quicker and more efficient. Most of those 4-5 drops were big dumb beaters, anyway, not prison pieces - trading them for 3-drop beaters just hits me as being... much better. In no possible way worse.
As for Burn, they really don't care about Trinisphere. Generally, they land a bolt or two before Trini hits, and then keep non-interacting with you with burn spells when they hit 3 lands.

Burn hitting 3 lands is not a forgone conclusion. If they ever miss land drops, then you buy free turns. My favorite is catching Rift Bolt in suspension when Burn has <3 lands in play. *moral victory*.

P.S: I'm 3-0 against Burn in Grand Prix matches with Dragon Stompy using my November build.

[frogger42]

Burn hitting 3 lands is not a forgone conclusion. If they ever miss land drops, then you buy free turns. My favorite is catching Rift Bolt in suspension when Burn has <3 lands in play. *moral victory*.

P.S: I'm 3-0 against Burn in Grand Prix matches with Dragon Stompy using my November build.

And I'm 12-3 with Somber Hoverguard in GPs. Legacy GPs. I personally think that's more impressive.

Stranding a Rift Bolt is absolutely game-swinging. I've won every game I stranded one - burn really needs that one extra card to the dome. But that's about all Trinisphere is really going to do. It'll slow down a little, but if you don't land an efficient threat the next turn - say you keep drawing Trinis - then you'll still lose that game. An ideal hand to keep for burn is 2 lands, 5 burn. They can keep 1 landers, too, if they're G. Guide x2, a couple other 1-drops. Trinisphere will hose the risky keep - but your opp can just mull to 6 to find 2 lands. Drawing a 3rd land isn't that unattainable based on a good Burn hand. Basing your card choice on your opponent's misplaying, or worse, on blind luck in not drawing a 3rd land... eh, I just don't do that.

If you wanted to respond to the bigger debate about 3-drop beaters vs 4-drop beaters, go for it. That's really what I was not getting. I don't see any Dragons that I'd run over even Pia Nalaar, let alone Hanweir Garrison.

[Koby]

And I'm 12-3 with Somber Hoverguard in GPs. Legacy GPs. I personally think that's more impressive.

Stranding a Rift Bolt is absolutely game-swinging. I've won every game I stranded one - burn really needs that one extra card to the dome. But that's about all Trinisphere is really going to do. It'll slow down a little, but if you don't land an efficient threat the next turn - say you keep drawing Trinis - then you'll still lose that game. An ideal hand to keep for burn is 2 lands, 5 burn. They can keep 1 landers, too, if they're G. Guide x2, a couple other 1-drops. Trinisphere will hose the risky keep - but your opp can just mull to 6 to find 2 lands. Drawing a 3rd land isn't that unattainable based on a good Burn hand. Basing your card choice on your opponent's misplaying, or worse, on blind luck in not drawing a 3rd land... eh, I just don't do that.

If you wanted to respond to the bigger debate about 3-drop beaters vs 4-drop beaters, go for it. That's really what I was not getting. I don't see any Dragons that I'd run over even Pia Nalaar, let alone Hanweir Garrison.

I haven't finalized my new list from the last year of goodies, but the issue with 3 cmc and 4 cmc has been on my foremind for a while. The issue I really faced was dealing with Tarmogoyf. Goblin Stompy is better equipped to deal with Goyf than Dragons. Conversely, Dragons are less prone to removal against those decks. Overall, I expect to face Goyf decks about half as frequently as I do facing DRS. For this reason I prefer to use Planeswalkers and Dragons versus the Goblin suite.

[CovenantElite30]

I haven't finalized my new list from the last year of goodies, but the issue with 3 cmc and 4 cmc has been on my foremind for a while. The issue I really faced was dealing with Tarmogoyf. Goblin Stompy is better equipped to deal with Goyf than Dragons. Conversely, Dragons are less prone to removal against those decks. Overall, I expect to face Goyf decks about half as frequently as I do facing DRS. For this reason I prefer to use Planeswalkers and Dragons versus the Goblin suite.

So is the new Chandra going to be a 4 of in your build?

[Sohmxat]

Sorry for the interruption, wanted to share that I went 4-0 (8-2 in games) in a small (<20) weekly yesterday, went up against Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, Elves, and Grixis Delver splashing green for Abrupt Decay. Lost a game to Elves and to Grixis Delver, both times were because I just didn't draw gas.

1x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Goblin Settler
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Moggcatcher
1x Murderous Redcap
2x Siege-Gang Commander
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
3x Trinisphere
2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Blood Moon

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
9x Mountain

Sideboard:
1x Boil
1x Dismember
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Koth of the Hammer
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Pyroblast
1x Sudden Demise
1x Warping Wail


R1: Death and Taxes, win the die roll with a 7.
G1: Mull to 6, scry Trinisphere to top, went Mountain, double Spirit Guide, Magus, pass. The hand wasn't able to do anything else but had another Mountain and Jitte, I was literally just banking on him not having removal... and it worked, he went Wasteland pass, and the rest of the game was him having nonbasics and me beating for 6.

+Sharpshooter +Wail +2 Bridge
-Moggcatcher -Krenko -Matron -Siege-gang

G2: Keep 7, he goes Plains Vial pass. I play Chalice on 1 off of a City and pass. He ticks Vial to 1 plays another plains and passes. I play a Chalice on 2 off of another City and pass. He ticks up vial to 2 and puts in a Revoker naming Moggcatcher and passes. I play a Mountain and an Ensnaring Bridge and the rest of the game is a grind as his only out is to Flickerwisp my Chalices to build a boardstate and eventually blink a Bridge, but I had two Rabblemasters out by the time he built up a board. And I put out a chalice on 3. He conceded after I had 30 tokens with 4 Chalice and all 3 Magus out.

The D&T matchup is usually super difficult, but I basically just got really lucky and he didn't draw anything decent. I've been wanting to put in an Anarchy in the side, but I don't really know what to take out for it.


R2: Shardless BUG, win the die roll with Hearts Boxcars.
G1: Keep 7, Play a Trinisphere off of a Tomb and Mox exiling Krenko. He plays a Tropical Island, suspends an Ancestral Visions and passes. I play a Rabblemaster, beat for 1, and pass. He plays a fetch and passes. I don't do anything besides gen a token, beat for 4, and pass. He plays another fetch and gets a Bayou and an Underground Sea, casts Painful Truths for the full value and passes. I finally draw a moon effect and he scoops.

+Boil +2 Pyroblast +Demise
-Matron -Settler - Krenko -Siege-gang

G2: I don't remember much about this game, I know that he almost snap kept his opener because it had Force in it, but he had to mull because it had no other blue cards in it. I also remember him Hymning me twice but he never got any creatures, and I just played Blood Moon and won.

This is about how the Shardless matchup goes. Cast Blood Moon, hope that it resolves and that they don't float Abrupt Decay mana, if they don't do anything, you win. If not, you've got to actually play the game. Or if they fetch basics, then you've got to actually play the game, but the rest of the lock pieces help with that.


R3: Elves, GB grindy version, win the die roll with a hard 4.
G1: Keep 7, play Chalice on 1 off of a Tomb after griping about how I never saw Chalice against the Elves! player at GP Columbus. He goes Cavern, Deathrite, pass. I play a mountain and get a Blood Moon out, and he doesn't draw any basics for the rest of the game. I eventually draw a Rabblemaster and kill him with that.

+2 Bridge +Sharpshooter +Demise +Wail
-Scrapper -2 Trinisphere -Matron -Krenko

G2: Keep 7, and second verse is almost the same as the first, but this time he draws basics. And I don't draw Rabblemaster, or anything else for that matter, I only get lock pieces and he has Abrupt for the Chalices that I put on 1. And I can't empty my hand fast enough for Bridge to stop the onslaught of 1/1s and 2/2s.

No sideboard changes.

G3: Mull to 6, as the 7 was 5 lands and 2 Seige-gangs. I get out a Chalice on 1, then a Chalice on 2, and he doesn't draw Caverns, or any removal for it, so I won. No Blood Moon, but triple Rabblemaster usually gets there against non-Miracles opponents.

I wasn't sure how this would go, since my only experience with any elves deck was one where I didn't draw Chalice, and I was on a version of the deck that ran 2 Winter orbs main, but I was hopeful. Turns out it just needed to be played like the D&T matchup, keep their utility lands down, punish them if they build up too large of a board state, hope to race them.


R4: Grixis Delver splash green, win the die roll with an easy 8.
I didn't take any notes and I don't remember much about this round, except for game 3 where I was at 2 from Young Pyro+tokens+Deathrite beats, drew and resolved a Moggcatcher and a Jitte, then tutored up Siege-Gang, Kiki-jiki, and Redcap for the win. He wouldn't have seen any burn until two turns after he was dead.

I remember Blood Moon and Murderous Redcap were all stars, and I pitched a Spirit Guide to Pyroblast his Force to resolve a Blood Moon.

[Koby]

So is the new Chandra going to be a 4 of in your build?

No, I don't think Chandra Torch of Defiance is worth 4 copies in any Legacy deck. I am going with 2 copies, and supplementing her with 2 Koths as well. Chandra is good as a card advantage engine and a short boost. Koth is best are pressuring slow decks. A combination of both is likely needed due to the varied nature of the Legacy.

[frogger42]

No, I don't think Chandra Torch of Defiance is worth 4 copies in any Legacy deck. I am going with 2 copies, and supplementing her with 2 Koths as well. Chandra is good as a card advantage engine and a short boost. Koth is best are pressuring slow decks. A combination of both is likely needed due to the varied nature of the Legacy.

Disagree. Chandra's -3 helps get your Garrison / Rabble tokens through. That's a significant difference over Koth, who only removes threats with his emblem. Chandra x4, absolutely.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Koby's list for reference:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18155&iddeck=137173

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance would be pretty klunky in that build.

I can only imagine her as a 4-of in a list that main decks 4 Ensnaring Bridge.

[Koby]

Disagree. Chandra's -3 helps get your Garrison / Rabble tokens through. That's a significant difference over Koth, who only removes threats with his emblem. Chandra x4, absolutely.

I'm a little confused here. Are you disagreeing that Koth is better versus slow decks because Chandra's -3?

[LeoCop 90]

Chandra is a better card than koth overall, no questions asked. This doesn't mean we have to play 4 copies of her. I will probably start with 3 chandra 2 koth, and this will let me maindeck 2/3 ensnaring bridge because i can win with planeswalkers and my other treats all have 1 or 2 power (rabblemaster, garrison, pia e kiran).

[CovenantElite30]

Chandra is a better card than koth overall, no questions asked. This doesn't mean we have to play 4 copies of her. I will probably start with 3 chandra 2 koth, and this will let me maindeck 2/3 ensnaring bridge because i can win with planeswalkers and my other treats all have 1 or 2 power (rabblemaster, garrison, pia e kiran).

Can you post your decklist you have in mind?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Can you post your decklist you have in mind?
Here are some links to the different iterations of the deck, for reference:

Dragon Stompy on TC Decks (http://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php?archetype=Dragon%20Stompy&format=Legacy)

Dragon Stompy
1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20137&iddeck=153477), 2 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20137&iddeck=153478), 3 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20093&iddeck=153120), 4 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19907&iddeck=151563), 5 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19134&iddeck=145439), 6 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18765&iddeck=142315), 7 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18155&iddeck=137173), 8 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16098&iddeck=120188)

Goblin Stompy
1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21025&iddeck=160745), 2 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20756&iddeck=158614), 3 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20070&iddeck=152921), 4 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18766&iddeck=142318), 5 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18598&iddeck=140868), 6 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18298&iddeck=138319), 7 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18283&iddeck=138205), 8 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17518&iddeck=131803)

Planeswalker Stompy
1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19182&iddeck=145807), 2 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18142&iddeck=137084), 3 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15855&iddeck=118066), 4 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15415&iddeck=114568), 5 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14121&iddeck=103931)

Werewolf Stompy
1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12805&iddeck=93922), 2 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12679&iddeck=92979), 3 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11633&iddeck=85138), 4 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11435&iddeck=83546), 5 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11538&iddeck=84437), 6 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10489&iddeck=76501)

Red Stompy
1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16000&iddeck=119305), 2 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14168&iddeck=104288), 3 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10075&iddeck=73421), 4 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20968&iddeck=160365), 5 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20878&iddeck=159612)

Hellbent Stompy
1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15236&iddeck=113099), 2 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10024&iddeck=73076), 3 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10055&iddeck=73279), 4 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8579&iddeck=62589)

Human Stompy
1 (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19024&iddeck=144487)

[frogger42]

I'm a little confused here. Are you disagreeing that Koth is better versus slow decks because Chandra's -3?

Yes. To quote myself: "Chandra's -3 helps get your Garrison / Rabble tokens through. That's a significant difference over Koth, who only removes threats with his emblem." Unless you're jamming Moggcatcher x7-8, Garrison and Rabble are probably going to be in your deck, as they are CMC 3 need to answer threats. Much better than TBR and dragons and Co. Chandra removes blockers, I should've said.

If you don't want to run the fastest mono-Red clocks in the format, at CMC 3 anyway, then maybe Chandra won't be in your deck.

[Koby]

Yes. To quote myself: "Chandra's -3 helps get your Garrison / Rabble tokens through. That's a significant difference over Koth, who only removes threats with his emblem." Unless you're jamming Moggcatcher x7-8, Garrison and Rabble are probably going to be in your deck, as they are CMC 3 need to answer threats. Much better than TBR and dragons and Co. Chandra removes blockers, I should've said.

If you don't want to run the fastest mono-Red clocks in the format, at CMC 3 anyway, then maybe Chandra won't be in your deck.

I agree with you regarding Chandra's utility against blockers. My point is that she's not that great against slow decks; decks with no blockers/threats. In these matchups, Koth shines. That's my prime point. Seeing how Miracles is the best top tier deck, I don't want 4x "Chandra Do Nothing", I want both a mix of Chandra + Non-Chandra walkers. I don't think ANY walker is ideal against decks that present 2/2 and larger creatures, because our creatures SUCK at blocking.

[ZTurgeon]

I agree with you regarding Chandra's utility against blockers. My point is that she's not that great against slow decks; decks with no blockers/threats. In these matchups, Koth shines. That's my prime point. Seeing how Miracles is the best top tier deck, I don't want 4x "Chandra Do Nothing", I want both a mix of Chandra + Non-Chandra walkers. I don't think ANY walker is ideal against decks that present 2/2 and larger creatures, because our creatures SUCK at blocking.

In my limited testing with her, she has been pretty great against Miracles, more or less functioning as a Sulfuric Vortex/Howling Mine that they need to get off the table in 3 turns. I still don't think you should run 4 of her outside of a 4 ensnaring bridge shell, but she has really not had a bad matchup outside of the already terrible death and taxes and A+B Combo decks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What are people's opinions toward vehicles in the deck?
The overall consensus I've seen online is that vehicles aren't terrible and, in fact, may be much better than people think...

At a minimum, I intend to pick up a Fleetwheel Cruiser and Smuggler's Copter to try out. I'm not sold on the Copter, but I'm pretty convinced the Cruiser has what it takes to be playable. Currently I picture them taking the place of equipment, and I picture them as 1-ofs.

Fleetwheel Cruiser having Crew 2 is pretty ideal for this deck. Often you do not want to attack with your Magus due to on-board blockers or the threat of a surprise Snapcaster Mage. Cruiser being colorless gets around Protection-based effects. And 5 power is pretty huge in Legacy. Oh yeah, and haste!

In a stalled out game, I hate having an equipment on the field and an empty hand only to draw/play/equip a creature that gets killed before I can untap with it.

[square_two]

What are people's opinions toward vehicles in the deck?
The overall consensus I've seen online is that vehicles aren't terrible and, in fact, may be much better than people think...

At a minimum, I intend to pick up a Fleetwheel Cruiser and Smuggler's Copter to try out. I'm not sold on the Copter, but I'm pretty convinced the Cruiser has what it takes to be playable. Currently I picture them taking the place of equipment, and I picture them as 1-ofs.

Fleetwheel Cruiser having Crew 2 is pretty ideal for this deck. Often you do not want to attack with your Magus due to on-board blockers or the threat of a surprise Snapcaster Mage. Cruiser being colorless gets around Protection-based effects. And 5 power is pretty huge in Legacy. Oh yeah, and haste!

In a stalled out game, I hate having an equipment on the field and an empty hand only to draw/play/equip a creature that gets killed before I can untap with it.

Smuggler's Copter is looking to be played in a majority of standard decks for the season. The looting ability is just insane and could be a very real way of filtering for this deck. Makes any goblin token or other creature you have currently stonewalled into 3 damage + filter, I can't imagine that being bad at all.

[ZTurgeon]

Smuggler's Copter is looking to be played in a majority of standard decks for the season. The looting ability is just insane and could be a very real way of filtering for this deck. Makes any goblin token or other creature you have currently stonewalled into 3 damage + filter, I can't imagine that being bad at all.

There are a few issues with it. What makes it better than just playing a Jitte and running in the guy for counters? Equipment in this deck is powerful, but already a little dubious as you spend so much of your resources putting out fast lock pieces. With the copter specifically, discarding lands isn't always an option due to enemy deathrite shamans that have been stranded.

My guess is that the Vehicles end up just being worse than a compact growing threat like rabblemaster or garrison.

[Ace/Homebrew]

My guess is that the Vehicles end up just being worse than a compact growing threat like rabblemaster or garrison.
No argument there, but they wouldn't be fighting for the same spot as a Rabblemaster or Garrison. They would most likely compete with equipment for space.

Which brings us to...

What makes it better than just playing a Jitte and running in the guy for counters?
Unless you win the game with the first creature you equip the Jitte too, the vehicles are going to be more mana efficient.
Fleetwheel Cruiser swings for 5 the turn it comes down, so a pretty good argument can be made that it is better than Jitte on an empty board.
There are also several scenarios where the creature you would equip with Jitte cannot be risked because it is all that is keeping the opponent locked (Revoker or Magus) and the opponent has a 2-power creature on their side.
Vehicles are also better than equipment the turn you play your creature.


I'll be actively testing (at least) Fleetwheel Cruiser, so I'll try to keep the thread updated with anecdotal evidence as I acquire it. :smile:




Edit - It is worth noting that I believe the 'flavor' of Stompy being used will greatly influence whether vehicles or equipment are superior. I expect Goblin Stompy to only ever want equipment, but most of the other flavors might prefer vehicles...

[ZEROorDIE]

especially with the token producers. say you are about to be forced into attacking into an unfavorable board state with 2 rabblemaster, you can tap them both to crew your ship/car/train/space boat etc. and still attack with the swarm. no losing your valuable token generator.

I plan on testing some of these out after I get a few copies. Definitely interested in smugglers copter and the flagship as well. the deck has pretty little it can do about fliers

[CovenantElite30]

especially with the token producers. say you are about to be forced into attacking into an unfavorable board state with 2 rabblemaster, you can tap them both to crew your ship/car/train/space boat etc. and still attack with the swarm. no losing your valuable token generator.

I plan on testing some of these out after I get a few copies. Definitely interested in smugglers copter and the flagship as well. the deck has pretty little it can do about fliers
How has your testing been going with the deck?

I was considering playing one Cathartic Reunion in the main for some late game card draw. I find the deck runs out of steam a lot and top decking Chrome Mox late in the game is miserable.

[Megadeus]

Anybody been testing with the vehicles have any results? Are they worth it?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Anybody been testing with the vehicles have any results? Are they worth it?
I should have some information after Sunday! I just picked up 2 copters I intend to use at EE5 instead of equipment.

[CovenantElite30]

I should have some information after Sunday! I just picked up 2 copters I intend to use at EE5 instead of equipment.

Any way you can post your list?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Any way you can post your list?
I will, but I'm still deciding how I want to attack the format.

[L10]

Hey guys, this may sound like a stupid question, but what match-up do you side out Magus of the Moon and/or Blood Moon? Burn, other red Stompy decks, Goblins, Sneak and Show, and OmniTell are obvious. But what about UR Delver, Death and Taxes, and Miracles?

Against UR Delver, the potential to cut then off blue mana is big, but is completely nullified if they can get one Island, so I do not think it is worth it.

Against Miracles, I think playing both are worth it despite them playing a lot of basics is that it prevents them from shuffling, getting more looks from Top and cantrips.

DnT is what I am torn against. The deck is super mana hungry, and stopping their mana denial strategy can give us breathing room. On the other hand, they can also just draw a lot of plains.

What about Nic Fit? Anyways, I just want you guys opinions on what decks the Moon prison strategy is poor. If there are decks you rather keep in Magus but side out Blood Moon, I am interested in that as well.

Thanks.

[ZEROorDIE]

Hey guys, this may sound like a stupid question, but what match-up do you side out Magus of the Moon and/or Blood Moon? Burn, other red Stompy decks, Goblins, Sneak and Show, and OmniTell are obvious. But what about UR Delver, Death and Taxes, and Miracles?

Against UR Delver, the potential to cut then off blue mana is big, but is completely nullified if they can get one Island, so I do not think it is worth it.

Against Miracles, I think playing both are worth it despite them playing a lot of basics is that it prevents them from shuffling, getting more looks from Top and cantrips.

DnT is what I am torn against. The deck is super mana hungry, and stopping their mana denial strategy can give us breathing room. On the other hand, they can also just draw a lot of plains.

What about Nic Fit? Anyways, I just want you guys opinions on what decks the Moon prison strategy is poor. If there are decks you rather keep in Magus but side out Blood Moon, I am interested in that as well.

Thanks.

doesn't do much against U/R delver because price still counts all of your "non-basic mountains"

great against miracles, shuts off all of their fetch lands making their mana choices much more difficult. also, shuts down the shuffling

against d&t, I would happily shut off their wasteland/port/Karakas and force them into playing Plains or "mountains". keeps them off from bounce shenanigans with Karakas in addition to shutting off their mana denial plan.

haven't played against nic-fit in a while so maybe someone else can chime in here, but it is a mana hungry deck with 3 colors, so I can still see it being good despite the large amount of basics. they also have plenty of answers to blood moon so idk.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Hey guys, this may sound like a stupid question, but what match-up do you side out Magus of the Moon and/or Blood Moon?
Not stupid, just complicated...
You're talking about swapping up to 8 cards. Whenever you are moving around that many cards you have to consider what your sideboard consists of.

Even the burn match-up isn't necessarily -8 Moons... Ancient Tomb can really help their gameplan and an early Blood Moon might save you crucial life points.
Can you post the list and sideboard you're using? It makes answering your question easier. :smile:

[L10]

Thanks for the response guys. I have been jamming with this list that I found online.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD04238W/
The deck is pretty brutal. I really like Shaman of the Great Hunt in particular. He is savage with Goblin Rabblemaster and Hanweir Garrison.

But to answer your question Ace, this is how I have been sideboarding against Burn, Death and Taxes, and Miracles in particular with the list above.

Burn:
-4 Magus of the Moon
-3 Blood Moon
-1 Instigator Gang
+3 Phyrexian Revoker (cheap blocker, name on Grim Lavamancer)
+4 Fiery Confluence
+1 Trinisphere
Though, I think you may have a point, Ace. When I SB all the Moons, I do feel Ancient Tomb does a lot of work against me. Maybe I should keep in some number of Magus of the Moon.

Death and Taxes:
-4 Magus of the Moon
-3 Trinisphere
-1 Hero of Oxid Ridge
+3 Phyrexian Revoker
+4 Fiery Confluence
+1 Blood Moon
I feel Blood Moon is stronger in this MU because StP doesn't interact with it. Magus of the Moon is also weaker when I go for the nuclear option with Fiery Confluence.

Miracles:
-3 Hero of Oxid Ridge
-2 Chrome Mox
+3 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Trinisphere
I side out the Chrome Mox because I never feel in a rush for mana against Miracles. Removing Hero of Oxid Ridge also lowers my curve a bit. The fact that Chrome Mox can get countered by CB on lands makes me wary of playing it.

Anyways, this is how I SB against these MUs. I am not entirely sure if it is correct.

Thanks!

[Ace/Homebrew]

That looks like a fun list! Lots of haste. :smile:
Shaman otH looks really aggressive. I'd like to try it with Prophetic Flame speaker after seeing that list. How has Sin Prodder been?

The cards that make me feel hopeless when Burn matches go poorly are Searing Blood/Searing Blaze and Smash to Smithereens. Most Burn lists run Lavamancer as a 2-of, so I feel adding any number of Revokers is just guaranteeing you'll lose the artifact creature while taking 3 to the face.
I agree with +X Confluence and +1 3Sphere. But mostly mulligan to turn-1 3sphere or CotV.


Against D&T (which is abysmal in my experience), I want bodies and Moon effects are generally weak. I actually keep Magus over the enchantment because plowing Magus means a creature I care about more gets to live. And if they keep a hand without Plains then Magus wins you the game anyways.
Your modes for Confluence are typically going to be creatures, artifact, artifact. Revokers have a gillion targets here. I would go - Blood Moon and 3Sphere, + Revoker and Confluence.


Against Miracles you want a steady supply of threats and you want all your fast mana to power out a lock piece turn 1 (at that point they either have FoW or they don't). The reason Koth is in your sideboard is for this matchup. Trinisphere is worthless because... well, because you are playing against Miracles. The game will go long and they will hit all their land drops.
+ Revoker, + Koth. - 3Sphere, - Hero. Look for turn 1 CotV or Moon, but don't throw away a hand with 2 three-drop token-making creatures that you can play turns 1 and 2. Try to keep a reserve creature in hand for the inevitable Terminus. And they struggle against Koth. :wink:

Edit: If you ever main deck Confluence, resolving it early as 3x opponent is reeeeally good against Miracles. For main deck Mentor lists they can pretty much guarantee a token reset and usually get the Mentor too if they start to dominate the battlefield.

[zangoasyl]

Thanks for the response guys. I have been jamming with this list that I found online.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD04238W/
The deck is pretty brutal. I really like Shaman of the Great Hunt in particular. He is savage with Goblin Rabblemaster and Hanweir Garrison.

Indeed an interesting list. But it has an astonishingly low number of lands included. I always run 20 lands plus 4 apes and 4 chrome moxen, even though i do have a very low Stompy curve of not having a single 4cmc threat in my 75.
How many lands are you guys currently running?

[Koby]

Indeed an interesting list. But it has an astonishingly low number of lands included. I always run 20 lands plus 4 apes and 4 chrome moxen, even though i do have a very low Stompy curve of not having a single 4cmc threat in my 75.
How many lands are you guys currently running?

19 lands with 1 five drop, 8 four drops, and only 3 Chrome Mox

[CovenantElite30]

What do you guys think of play 2 smuggler's copter in the main? I feel like the creatures that make tokens you have no problems turning this guy on and is a source of card advantage. I'm going to test with 2 and let you know how it goes.

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[CovenantElite30]

I just saw Smuggler's Copter on screen at EE5 in a red stompy list. The card took over the game won it for the guy. He made use of the mugus by using it to activate copter. Then the draw discard ability is so good in the stompy deck. Wish I had his deck list to see how many main he is playing.

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[Megadeus]

Ace is testing them today he said. Does anybody still play seething song in this deck? I like the aspect of big mana, but maybe it's mostly reserved for mono red sneak variants. Also what about new 4 mana chandra? Is she not better than Koth? She's card advantage that can also be a clock, she can ramp you up in mana, and she can kill off dudes.

[CovenantElite30]

Ace is testing them today he said. Does anybody still play seething song in this deck? I like the aspect of big mana, but maybe it's mostly reserved for mono red sneak variants. Also what about new 4 mana chandra? Is she not better than Koth? She's card advantage that can also be a clock, she can ramp you up in mana, and she can kill off dudes.
Love the new Chandra, I play 2 in the main. Every time I have resolved a Chandra I won that game.

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[AceOfJacks]

I just saw Smuggler's Copter on screen at EE5 in a red stompy list. The card took over the game won it for the guy. He made use of the mugus by using it to activate copter. Then the draw discard ability is so good in the stompy deck. Wish I had his deck list to see how many main he is playing.

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He's only playing one. Seems like a noob move to me.

[CovenantElite30]

He's only playing one. Seems like a noob move to me.
You don't think it's good enough for this deck? From my testing so far it's been really powerful.

[AceOfJacks]

You don't think it's good enough for this deck? From my testing so far it's been really powerful.

No, that's not it at all. I was the idiot on camera. I one ran one, and I should have run more.

[CovenantElite30]

No, that's not it at all. I was the idiot on camera. I one ran one, and I should have run more.
How many would you run? Are you playing any dragons in your list? How did you end up doing? Maybe write up a short report?

Thank dude.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I went 7-2-0 today at EE5 in Baltimore, MD!
That was good enough to place 14th out of the 277 in attendance.

Here's the list:

11 Mountains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Magma Jet
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

2 Pia Nalaar
2 Moggcatcher
2 Goblin Settler
1 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Smuggler's Copter

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Stingscourger
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Pillage
1 Shattering Spree
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Trinisphere
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Siege-Gang Commander

I wanted to give Pia and the Copter a try. But mostly I wanted to play Goblin Settler.
My biggest concern with traditional Moggcatcher lists is how high the curve is. Kiki-Jiki is great when you find him with Moggcatcher, but otherwise he is pretty awful... The SGC in the board was a last second audible and replaced the 3rd Faerie Macabre. Neither card really ended up mattering this tournament.

I did not play against a single Tarmogoyf and I got deck checked 3 (!!!) times. I never appeared on the stream, but am happy to hear a Red Stompy deck got some exposure.

Round 1 - Jeff on Shardless Grixis 4C Young Pyromancer. Loss, 1-2.
I win the die roll and we both mull to 6. He Forces my turn-1 play but can't stop me. I really only see Baleful Strix, so I put him on Shardless. Game 2 I am well on my way towards taking control of the game. I resolve a Moggcatcher which threatens his 2 basic Islands, but he steals it with a Sower of Temptation and I cannot bounce back. Game 3 I mull to 6 and am in a good spot with CotV on 1 and 2 until he plays Maelstrom Pulse. Not the way I wanted to start the event...

Round 2 - Macy on Esper Mentor. Win, 2-1.
He's on the play and has Force for my shenanigans. I scoop after realizing I have no main-deck outs to a germ token equipped with a Batterskull, SoFaI, and Jitte. Game 2 he mulls to 6 and again has FoW, but my artifact hate let's me maintain control. Game 3 he doesn't have Force, so I win.

Round 3 - Will on U/R Delver. Win, 2-0.
Not our best matchup, but what are you gonna do? He starts and has Force for whatever I tried to stick, but a Rabblemaster runs him over. Game 2 I mull to 6 and the game goes back and forth until we are both at 5 life. He makes some poor attacking decision which I capitalize on by trading a token for a Pyromancer, and double blocking an attacker he was reliant on. I took the game by Magma Jetting his last threat and my scry 2 revealed a Rabblemaster and Garrison on top.

Round 4 - Will on Eldrazi. Win, 2-0.
Finally! He wins the die roll and leads with Ancient Tomb, Jitte. I take a gamble that I'm not playing the mirror and jam a Magus. He's able to kill the Magus with Jitte Counters, but I control the board with Magma Jet and SGC. Game 2 Blood Moon locks him out while Garrison and Rabblemaster tag team him. I finally have enough time to get a sandwich at Potbellys.

Round 5 - Chris on Esper Mentor. Win, 2-1.
Ugh... This again. He mulls to an excellent 6 and starts. Thoughseize! He also has Force for the spell I try to play. Game 2 I mull to 6 but get there by attacking his lands. Game 3 we both mull to 6 and of course he has Force for my nonsense. I am pretty sure his FoW was a 2-for-1 though. That combined with me being on the draw and having more threats got me there.

Round 6 - Trevor on ANT. Loss, 1-2.
We both immediately recognize each other, but he keeps telling me incorrect stories about the decks he remembers me playing at stores I've never been to. Last time I played him he was on Miracles. I say so and he let's me believe he's still on it. He Jedi mind tricked me and deserved the win... Game 1 he starts with Volcanic into Ponder but bricks on lands. I start with CotV@1 and follow with with a threat and he scoops having only shown me cards in Miracles. Game 2 he quickly storms me out and I see the error of my ways, having kept a glacially slow 7. I sideboard accordingly and proceed to mulligan to oblivion.

Round 7 - Ryan on Miracles. Win, 2-1.
I start, but he has Force. I quickly run him over as he fails to find Terminus. Game 2 I mull to 6 and he has all the counterspells... Game 3 I lead with CotV@1 which strands his 2 Tops in hand. Rabblemaster gets there!

Round 8 - Elton on Mono-Red Painter. Win, 2-1.
Great... This is the last deck I want to see at the top tables. On top of that, his buddy Ryan, who I played the round before had introduced us between rounds since Elton is a fan of goblins, and my deck has some. I joke about being paired against him the next round since we had the same record... He wins the die roll and the board gets to where he is reaching for new Chandra's ultimate behind the safety of an Ensnaring Bridge and my CotV@1 keeps him from assembling the combo. I stick SGC and Rabblemaster. I keep him from ultimating by throwing goblins, but when he -3's her to kill my Moggcatcher, I take the opportunity to take her out. Next turn I throw 6 damage at his face and he scoops cause he knows I do the same thing the turn after that. Game 2 he goes herp derp and wins. Game 3 I mull to 6 looking for Chalice. I don't find it, but I do get artifact hate. I destroy two bridges this game! Smuggler's Copter really pulled its weight here, attacking in the air and giving my creatures 'haste'. I won by using Pia to pump my thopter to lethal after he Revoked my Copter.

Round 9 - Dan on Infect. Win, 2-1.
I bum him out by making us play rather than splitting, but he's a good sport about it. I mull to an awesome 6 on the play. Scrying shows a Blood Moon on top. I jam a CotV@1 and he doesn't have Force! Next turn is Blood Moon. He scoops on my turn 3 threat. Game 2 I get infected. Game 3 he mulls to 6 but doesn't have Force for my turn 1 Blood Moon. He never gets a basic and with that the evening is over.



I get $200 in credit which I use on a judge promo Mana Drain and a Death's Shadow. Mana Drain goes in Cromat, which means the cube gets a Mana Drain I never thought it'd get! :laugh:

Pia Nalaar is the real deal! Smuggler's Copter is good, but I boarded it out almost every game... More testing required, I'm not sure my build is one where it can truly shine.

[L10]

GG, Ace.
G1, I mulled to 6. I kept a hand of double fetch, Top, Painter, REB, and Revoker. I saw Grindstone on top from the scry. That made me not want to play the Top turn 1 because I have all my combo pieces + protection. Your T1 Chalice made me regret that decision. lol
Also, I decided to gun down Mogg Catcher over the SGC because I thought you may be running two SGC MD, so I figured the tutor to be more powerful. Not entirely sure if that was correct.
Your deck was sweet. I was really impressed with the Copter. It made all your top deck creatures a threat.

[Ace/Homebrew]

GGs L10!
Dude, you told me your handle was L10 each time I asked, but all I could think was 'I don't remember any Eltons on theSource...'. :tongue:

I believe you'd have won our first game if you had used Chandra's -3 more aggressively. But at the time you were looking for a secondary win-con since I was keeping you off the combo. Either way, you've sold me on new Chandra's power!

[AceOfJacks]

How many would you run? Are you playing any dragons in your list? How did you end up doing? Maybe write up a short report?

Thank dude.

I did not do as well as I should have. However, I will blame it on my inexperience as a player in general. I only play two weekly tournaments a week, one that fires every Monday without fail, and one that has the weirdest metagame due to lack of consistency on Thursdays. Most of my playtesting is against the same decks over and over again, none of which I played against at this tournament.

My list that I ran yesterday:

8 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Pia Nalaar

4 Sudden Shock
4 Blood Moon

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Smuggler's Copter

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere

Matches:
Rd 1, win on camera vs eldrazi. He dropped after losing, stating that he did not want to have to win 8 matches in a row, then have to drive home.
1-0

R2 2, win vs UR Delver in 3.
G1 his burn is good enough to clear a path, and he beats with a Swiftspear and Stormchaser Mage.
G2 trinisphere helps, but his null rod shuts off copter. I race him with Garrison and use trinisphere to slow his down. That trinisphere saved my ass.
G3 double rabble plus scab clan hoses his life total. He cannot cast enough burn to clear my board without flat out dying to goblin tokens.
2-0

R3, loss on camera vs eldrazi.
Match started off camera.
G1 he thinks I'm on painter, but i slam a blood moon as soon as I see eldrazi temple. I stomp with blood moon plus tokens before he can reach 4 mana to cast anything worthwhile.
G2, correct sideboard, but the hate pieces I draw make this game drag on. I lost most of my threats to dismember, so I had to rely on Ensnaring Bridge to fend off endless ones and thought-knot seers. I lose to 2x endbringer after a grindy game.
G3, we move up to the backup camera, but I make the mistake of sideboarding out the shattering spree for Scab-Clan Berserker. I brain farted, I guess ... and he wins because of jitte, on camera.
2-1

R4, loss vs elves.
G1 he combos out very quickly. I misplay, despite having lots of bodies on the table, I make the mistake of playing Magus of the Moon instead of Pia Nalaar. If I would have played Pia, I would have been able to turn off a blocker, and kill him with exact lethal. He comboed out at 1 life.
G1 start off with Chalice @1, he Reclamation Sages, and combos out that same turn. If he didn't combo out that turn, I would have untapped and slammed Trinisphere in my hand, which would have pretty much won me the game.
2-2

R5, win against BUG Food Chain.
G1 I start off with City, Chalice @1. He incorrectly tells me about :another Eldrazi Matchup, I wonder which version you're playing" and assumes I'm on Eldrazi. I Goblin Rabblemaster him to death.
G2, he keeps 2 Misthollows out, and I draw tons of hate pieces, but no threats. He flies over for the win.
G3, I find a good mix of threats and hate. Turn 1 land pass, turn 2 scab clan, turn 3 magus. I win the game due to too much strain on his life total. Also, he tells a friend watching that I forced him to fetch a basic when I casted Blood Moon, and it was for a basic forest
He claims if he had blue mana, he would have been able to win the next turn.
3-2

R6, loss vs BUG Delver.
G1, he kills every one of my threats with abrupt decay, then attacks 4 times with a lone Tarmogoyf for the game. Somehow he drew 3 abrupt decay.
G2, he counters three spells in a row. Chalice, trinisphere, blood moon, all get countered. I run out of haymakers to throw down, then attacks me again with a Tarmogoyf until I die ... I draw no threats, but all the Equips!
3-3

R7, win vs Miracles.
G1 I land Chalice @1 and then 2x Rabblemaster. He lands Mentor, but I Sudden Shock it. Goblin beats.
G2, I land Trinisphere. I land ScB, he stp's it. 2nd ScB, he Miracles Terminus. 3rd ScB, he stp's it. He Vendilion Cliques me, i respond with Sulfur Elemental. Sulfur and Clique trade. I land 4th ScB, which trades with Snapcaster. He plays Mentor and fetches to 1 life to keep up 3 mana to counter a spell. I topdeck Sudden Shock for the win.
4-3

Rd 8, win vs white eldrazi.
G1 he leads with t1 wasteland, petal, stoneforge. I play 2 nonbasics to bait his wasteland, but He draws no 2nd land. I sidden shock his stoneforge before he can use it, then beat with multiple hanweirs.
G2 he out-tempos me with jitte. I cannot find a shattering spree to save my life. When all your dudes get machine gunned with jitte counters, it's very demoralizing.
G3, he assembles the thalia first strike wall, but i have a thopter token, and a jitte. I jitte his creatures down, and he draws six lands to hardcast his batterskull. I topdeck spree. I spree his batterskull and beat for the win.
5-3

Rd 9, loss to BUG Delver.
Tired beyond belief, so I honestly don't remember if there were any spicy plays in the first 2 games. I do remember game2 where i went to 6 cards and forgot to scry. I announce city of traitors, then immediately ask if i can scry, promising it will not change my land drop. He calls a judge, judge asks him if he's ok with it, he says yes. So i get to scry, which ended up not mattering in the end, because that game was pretty much a blowout for him.
G3 he plays t1 deathrite. I play turn 1 cavern, holding a second cavern and a spirit guide. I had tons of three drops, but they would all be uncounterable. Turn 2, he Hymns me and hits both mana sources. I get mana screwed as a result, and he literally durdle beats me with combat damage from 2x deathrite shaman and an unflipped delver.
5-4

I like copter, and i will buy some more and add them. I think 2-3 is the correct number, I just need to figure out the spots.
I do not know if I want new Chandra in this deck, because sometimes it's hard to get 4 mana with a blood moon effect on the table. Downside is everything dies to abrupt decay ...

[L10]

GGs L10!
Dude, you told me your handle was L10 each time I asked, but all I could think was 'I don't remember any Eltons on theSource...'. :tongue:

I believe you'd have won our first game if you had used Chandra's -3 more aggressively. But at the time you were looking for a secondary win-con since I was keeping you off the combo. Either way, you've sold me on new Chandra's power!
I had resolved Chandra seven times yesterday and won six of them (even once vs. Burn), three times from the ultimate (once with double Top). Sounds like it would have been seven out of seven if I played correctly. Thanks for the feedback!
I definitely think you should give the new Chandra TOD a try. Though, I do think it is better in a more prision build with Ensnaring Bridge. Maybe a Mogg Catcher build + two~three SGC? I love all her abilities too, and used each one. Despite costing four mana, she is incredibly efficient with helping dump my hand for bridge lock with her mana ability.

[L10]

Ace, I noticed that you play two copies of Faerie Macabre and a copy of Tormod's Crypt. What MU do you favor Faerie Macabre over the Crypt? On the draw, Faerie Macabre seems good against Reanimator for sure, and can't be counted by traditional counter magic. What other MU's do you bring them in?

[Octopusman]

@Ace - Was Pia the real deal due to pumping copter? What if you board out copter? I don't think you mention her elsewhere in your report unless she was one of the nameless threats.
Very happy for you and your finish. Nice, concise, report. Keep it up!

[Octopusman]

Ever sac an extra Mox or chalice to swing for lethal?

[Koby]

Ever sac an extra Mox or chalice to swing for lethal?

Seems fine vs Goyf decks playing defense.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What MU do you favor Faerie Macabre over the Crypt?
If I bring in one, I'm usually going to bring in all. The idea was more about diversifying my hate. If they Needle the Faerie, at least my Crypt is still live. Or they might just rush it out and guess wrong for what's in my hand. It helps to reduce Cabal Therapy blowouts too.

I essentially did the same thing with my artifact-hate by using a Pillage, a Spree, and a Confluence.


@Ace - Was Pia the real deal due to pumping copter?
Pia felt right as a 2-of. You are generally happy to see her, but never in multiples and usually as a drawn threat after you've landed your lock pieces. She's the real deal because she costs the ideal amount (:2::r:), she is spread across two bodies- one which flies, and has two relevant abilities.

At this point, I do not like playing creatures which cannot threaten to win against Miracles by themselves. If a creature doesn't make them want to use a Terminus 1-for-1 then we are giving them an advantage.

Pia also let's you block with a thopter, then sac it before damage to prevent Batterskull life-gain or Jitte counters.

[AceOfJacks]

Played at a LGS last night.
7 players, 3 rounds.

List:

7 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls

3 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Smuggler's Copter

4 Sudden Shock
3 Blood Moon

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Pia Nalaar
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Scab-Clan Berserker

Sb
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere

Notable changes from EE5 list:
-1 Blood Moon, -1 Mountain
+1 Smuggler's Copter, +1 Umezawa's Jitte


Rd 1: win vs homebrew Aetherflux Reservoir.
His deck is designed to play a bunch of cantripping artifacts like Tsabo's Web, Wellsprings, etc. Combined with cards like Helm of Awakening, Etherium Sculptor, and such, he ramps into a Metalwork Colossus or a Reservoir amd gains a lot of life, killing me with 50 life activation.
G1, I apply a lot of pressure on him with fast beats, and Scab-Clan Berserker seals the victory before he can combo out.
G2, he gets a fast start, and I cannot slow him down before he chains out and kills me. Close game though, as his Spines of Ish Dah did major work.
G3, Trinisphere plus Scab-Clan Berserker put pressure on his life total, but Pia Nalaar saves the day, as he has the new 0/4 Reach artifact in play. I end up sacrificing a Thopter to turn off his blocker and swing for exact lethal.
1-0

Rd 2: win against Miracles.
G1 Chalice @1 gets countered, but a second one off the top resolves. He can't cast any relevant spells, and the pressure eventually builds up on his life total.
G2 he mulls to 5, has no lands, but scrys a land to the top. He passes turn with no turn 1 play. I draw a chalice, and play it to bait a counterspell. It resolves, he concedes.
2-0

Rd 3, intentional draw against Jund Reanimator, but we play it out just for practice.
G1 he turn 1 reanimates a dude. I try not to give him too much information, as I know I cannot race game 1.
G2, I keep turn 1 Trinisphere, but no Leyline. I resolve turn 1 Trinisphere, and the beatdown commences. His spells cost too much to come back in time. Scab-Clan Berserker seals the deal, as the extra life is too much for him to pay to reanimate a blocker.
G3, I keep 7 with Leyline and turn 1 chalice. He casts turn 1 Faithless Looting on the play, to try to find a way to deal with Leyline. I windmill slam Chalice on 1. He has no relevant spells to play turn 2. I windmill slam Magus of the Moon turn 2. He cannot cast anything turn 3. I slam trinisphere turn 3. He misses a land drop. I start beating with random threats. By the time he finds a Lotus Petal, his life total is too low to recover.
3-0 (officially 2-0-1)


Thoughts:
Removing 1 land does not seem like much, but in the wrong matchup it can be brutal. This deck slings a lot of haymakers, and luckily I didn't go up against a lot of counterspells. In the right environment it can shine brightly, but a lot of the plays seems risky. I will run with it for a month or so, and see how it performs moving forward. No changes planned at the moment, however I dislike having 1x Sword with mo way to fetch it. It's a great card, but 1x this and 1x that with virtually no card advantage can be rough.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Had an anemic turnout for Philly's weekly. I took first of nine.

11 Mountains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Magma Jet
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

2 Pia Nalaar
2 Moggcatcher
2 Goblin Settler
1 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Fleetwheel Cruiser

Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Stingscourger
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Pillage
1 Shattering Spree
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Trinisphere
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt

List is -2 Copter, +2 Cruiser and - SGC, + Ratchet Bomb in the board.
Still just trying out vehicles to get a feel for them.

Round 1 - D&T, loss 1-2.
Game 1 I'm on the play and mull to 6. I can't deal with Stoneforge Mystic. Game 2 I hide under a bridge until Moggcatcher assembles SGC and the singleton Rabblemaster I kept in. Game 3 I keep Mountain, 2 Mox, Guide, Bridge, Magma Jet, Red Card. I draw a red card and play Bridge keeping Jet for one of his dorks. He plays Revoker and I don't draw land before he takes over.

Round 2 - Punishing Mav, win 2-1.
I start and try to out aggro him but Stoneforge into Batterskull stops me. Game 2 a turn 0 Blood Moon takes the game. Game 3 I mull to 6 but get there thanks to Blood Moon and Pia Nalaar. I had enough spare Moxen, Chalices , and Thopters to keep attacking with Hanweir Garrison past Skull to amass an eventually lethal number of tokens regardless of Skull's lifelink.

Round 3 - ANT, win 2-1.
I win the die roll. Magus into Rabble is enough to get there. Game 2 I mull to 3... Game 3 I keep 3 Mountain, CotV, Trinisphere, and 2 threats. I play CotV@0 and hope that's enough to slow him down so I can play 3ball on turn 3... It was!

Round 4 - Imperial Taxes, win 2-0.
I mull to 5 and he starts with Wasteland -> Vial. He only sees 2 Wastelands and Hanweir Garrison takes over. Game 2 I get 2 Vials with a Shattering Spree and Garrison showed up in multiples, winning the game.




Fleetwheel Cruiser didn't stand out, but didn't feel worse than Copter the few times I saw it. I boarded it out just as frequently... I don't think this build wants either Vehicle.

Pia Nalaar was great all night. It's possible 3 is the right number of her.

[amppyou]

Fleetwheel Cruiser didn't stand out, but didn't feel worse than Copter the few times I saw it. I boarded it out just as frequently... I don't think this build wants either Vehicle.

Pia Nalaar was great all night. It's possible 3 is the right number of her.


Thanks for the report. I'm looking to reassemble stompy for my next legacy weekly. Out of curiosity, as of right now, do you feel Jitte > vehicles?

Also, I assume your list eschews Cavern of Souls because you're not as goblin heavy as some of the other lists.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Thanks for the report. I'm looking to reassemble stompy for my next legacy weekly. Out of curiosity, as of right now, do you feel Jitte > vehicles?

Also, I assume your list eschews Cavern of Souls because you're not as goblin heavy as some of the other lists.
I would say Jitte > Vehicles in the builds I've tested so far. Having said that, I haven't missed Jitte while I've been testing Vehicles. It isn't needed against a lot of lists.

And I usually forego Cavern unless a high majority of my creature base is of a single tribe. Unfortunately Cavern does nothing for us if our hand gives us Blood Moons over Maguses.


Edit:
Just spoiled from Commander 16
http://media.wizards.com/2016/bn8f9t2zc_C16/MQZlOGSAzZ_EN.png

I don't believe it is maindeckable, and I don't think you'd ever want more than 1 or 2 in the sideboard. BUT this card has some potential.

[Gheizen64]

I thought that worked off SnT, but it actually don't, i'm dumb.

Still, it's essentially a 4 mana confiscate. Card is strong, it need a home though, and it's purely reactive too, so it may never find it.

[jancz]

Hey! I was the person at eternal weekend in the maid outfit.
I ran the following list and ended up going 6-4.


Mana
11 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Lock
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

Clock
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Pia Nalaar
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Thunderbreak Regent
1 Jaya Ballard
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Removal
3 Magma Jet
1 Sudden Shock

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sudden Shock
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree



Round 1 vs Aluren (W)
Game 1: Forced the Moon and then played coiling oracle revealing aluren. I try to play a garrison for beats but shardless into abrupt decay ends that then I get beat down.
Game 2: Land the moon and then the sided revoker to shut him off of DRS.
Game 3: Land another moon effect.
Round 2 vs Grixis Delver (W)
Game 1: I find removal for the delver and lock out with a chalice
Game 2: Close back and forth but I land a trinisphere and a chalice. He plays a Gurmag angler but I land a pia and can afford to chump block.

Round 3 Vs Mono U OmniShowandTell(L)
Game 1: Shows an Omni,Plays a Grieselbrand and draws to emrakul.
Game 2: I think Trinisphere locks him out and I just win with him on 2 mana the entire game
Game 3: Get a lock piece forced and then Emrakul shows up.

Round 4 vs D&T (L)
Game 1: I keep a hand Moon Chalice and ways to play them T1 and T2. Lead with the moon and he goes Basic Plains Aether Vial pass and I become very sad.
Game 2: I try to get a clock but I think I just lose to a resolved Jitte.


Round 5 vs Jeskai Stoneblade (L)
Game 1: He forces my locks goes Jitte,True Name Nemesis and Ends it quick.
Game 2: He counters the lock. We are at parity and plays Gideon Ally of Zendikar and then counters all my threats.

Round 6 vs Eldrazi (W)
Game 1: See a Mishra’s Factory and go Moon and just win.
Game 2: I mull to 6 and keep a super loose 3 Mountain 2 Rabblemaster 1 Thunderbreak regent. He mulls to 4 and I just draw a mox and play my threats.

Round 7 vs Burn (W)
Game 1: Land a Chalice of Void and he concedes instantly. I put him on burn or delver and side in the trinispheres.
Game 2: He smash to smithereens my first chalice but chalice 2 and 3 get there.

Round 8 vs Infect (W)
Game 1: I win the roll and play moon and win. He tells me after the match he kept a daze spell pierce hand
Game 2: he is able to fetch for basic forest and then GSZ to a viridian corrupter and I just can’t draw a removal.
Game 3: I land a magus then a rabblemaster and it's over pretty quick.

Round 9 vs Burn (W)
Game 1: We go back and forth but I land a chalice.
Game 2: I keep a super loose 2 magus of the moon and Jitte and hope the Jitte gets me there. It is just wayyyy to slow.
Game 3: Super tense game. I land a chalice at 1 and a trinisphere and kia and piran. He Pyroclasms my board and then is able to Destructive Revelry the Chalice. He tries to fireblast when I'm at 2 but still needs to pay 3 for trinispheres so I'm able to get in for 2.

Round 10 vs U/B Reanimator
Game 1: I land a moon but he goes Basic Swamp,Basic Island,Petal and Reanimates a Griselbrand and I lose from there.
Game 2: SNTs a Griselbrands that I try in vain to race.

Overall Thoughts:
Koth Just felt terrible the entire weekend except for the one side event I drew him against MUD when the player had an ensnaring bridge. I was expecting some number of miracles matchups but somehow never ended up facing it the entire weekend. Show and Tell and Death and Taxes ended up being the most problematic matchups. Death and Taxes was a tough matchup and large part of the meta that I'd probably bring in 3 Firey Confluence to the sideboard.

I'm not really sure what to do vs show and tell.Ensnaring Bridge out of the side along with clocks that can get around punching into griselbrand?

[ZTurgeon]

Overall Thoughts:
Koth Just felt terrible the entire weekend except for the one side event I drew him against MUD when the player had an ensnaring bridge. I was expecting some number of miracles matchups but somehow never ended up facing it the entire weekend. Show and Tell and Death and Taxes ended up being the most problematic matchups. Death and Taxes was a tough matchup and large part of the meta that I'd probably bring in 3 Firey Confluence to the sideboard.

I'm not really sure what to do vs show and tell.Ensnaring Bridge out of the side along with clocks that can get around punching into griselbrand?


Your list does you no favors in those matchups.

Death and Taxes, Show and Tell and Burn tend to be the 3 hardest matchups (in my opinion). By boarding the trinispheres you really hurt your game 1 combo matchup, especially against omni-show, where the best thing you can put in off a show and tell is a trinisphere. Additionally, not running any ensnaring bridges in the 75 leaves you with basically no outs to giant creatures, as you are not on the moggcatcher build. Also, your threats are just that, threats. They don't have enough utility to deal with the kind of threats that SnT brings to the table.