[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[ChemicalBurns]

Top 4ed a 22-person with this:

4 Harsh Mentor
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Sin Prodder
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Trinisphere
4 Fiery Confluence
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Chrome Mox

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
2 Sudden Shock
2 Pyrokinesis

4c Loam
g1: he got his mana online and was able to ruin me.
g2: t1 Moons, yay.
g3: Revoker on Diamond into Moons shorted his mana.

Dragon Stompy
g1: got buried while my opponent curved into 3 drops, could only defend myself with double P&K, wasn't enough.
g2: I got double Rabble going before he could do much.
g3: a very swingy and interesting game. He had early Chandra, I Revokered and played a three drop. My opp thenCconfluenced my revoker, dealt me four and killed my creature with his Chandra. I then had my Chandra kill his Chandra. Went a bit back and forth, eventually I had my Chandra ticking up and burnt him out with Confluence, stabilising at 4 life. Phew. Epic game.

Grixis Delver
g1: He double Thoughtseized me into nothing but I drew Chalice off the top. He had DRS but eventually I Confluenced it away and won.
g2: I Pyrokinesised a Delver early then slammed bombs into his counterspells. Without a clock I had plenty of time. Resolved Chandra and won.

Aluren
g1: Chalice on 1, then two, then attacked with idiots until my opponent died. He couldn't find Decay. I think I wrathed his board with Confluence at one stage too.
g2: Harsh Mentor did some work, pinging him for a fetch and Volrath's Stronghold activation. Died to Strix beats though as the board stalled.
g3: Mooned him early and Revoker shut down him comboing. Beat down began.

ID with S&S

Top 8 with Top Seed

Aluren
g1 and g3 were relatively uninteresting. Just lock pieced him with Moons and etc. and he died. g2 I remember some jockeying back and forth.

Dragon Stompy
g1: kept poorly. Went Tomb, pitch SSG for t1 Prodder. He does the same but off City and Chrome Mox. I don't draw anymore red sources and die with a stacked hand.
g2: Goes for a long time. He accelerates out early Chandras and I Confluence them away, struggling with mana in the process. Eventually we both have Bridges. He plays Rabble and starts a accruing tokens, I have Pyrokinesis that I hardcast at Rabble. We stare at each other for a long time, eventually I get double Rabble and have ~20 tokens. I Establish P&K which may be able to burn him at some stage. He draws three Confluence in a row off the top to kill me.

Deck was very fluid, have no idea how good Harsh Mentor was from this small sample size. Revoker was more of an all-star but makes for issues with Chrome Mox. Still looking for some cards to fill in the last two slots. Would probably go +1 Chandra, +1 Prodder, -4 Mentor (maybe to SB?) +2 Revoker.

[jandax]

Went 4-1 in a local 5 round tournament on Sunday. Played goblin stompy in the shook meta and it felt great.
4 Moggcatcher
1 Kiki
1 Settler
1 Redcap
1 Siege gang
1 Stingscourger
4 Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Trinisphere
3 Fiery Confluence
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
9 Mountain

Side:
3 bridge
3 macabre
2 sudden demise
2 anarchy
2 ratchet bomb
2 Thorn of amethyst
1 sharpshooter

Round 1 vs 4c Delver
G1 one simply plays Moon turn two, and they Brainstorm off an open Usea and scoop. I do not board. G2 he sticks a delver turn one, then i bait a Rabblemaster off a city and ssg which eats a daze. He flips delver off a brainstorm on top, replays the land and passes back. I go cavern into magus and he's land locked. I peel lands into stingscourger on his delver that had beat me down to 7, then a 3ball seals it. Turns out the bait was good bc he had force for my turn two play not counting on cavern.
Round 2 vs burn
He won the die roll and thus the match. I pointed the first game by giving up before it was over by missing a chalice trigger. With 3ball on the board. Live and learn.
Round 3 Snic-fit
No idea what he's on and establish a board with moon chalice on 1 and chandra, felt good til sneak attack into Emrakul did me in. Games2 and 3 i see my bridges on time and beat him down with gobbos both games.
Round 4 Aluren
A close 3 games, moon was relevant even with 4+ basics in his deck. Kiki and settler got me a game under a moon lock and i overran him with turn one moggcatcher chaining into Rabbles the last game with only a few minutes on the clock.
Round 5 Gb elves.
Mull to 5, open with cotv on 1, peel a tomb to lay down chalice on 2, then peel a 3ball for turn 3 and feel good. 4 turns later i got hoofed. Ban Craterhoof. Games two and three i lock her out pretty easy and win handily.

[menph]

Ban Craterhoof

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[BR3N7]

Deck was very fluid, have no idea how good Harsh Mentor was from this small sample size. Revoker was more of an all-star but makes for issues with Chrome Mox. Still looking for some cards to fill in the last two slots. Would probably go +1 Chandra, +1 Prodder, -4 Mentor (maybe to SB?) +2 Revoker.

Ya I thought Revokers value was going to tank but I almost like it more right now. Our decks are pretty close overall. Have a event next weekend and this is what I am going to register:

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Sin Prodder
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Fiery Confluence
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
2 Magma Jet

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Icy Manipulator
2 Sudden Shock
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pyroblast
2 Thorn of Amethyst

I really like Icy right now, I prefer it to bridge as its better with the aggro plan vs Bridge.

I know I watched one dude from this thread stream a few times and he is trying the Bridge version which I am not against but don't prefer currently and he is also use Icy a lot :).

Magma Jet is just for more removal and to better filter the deck which has helped a lot. Sudden is superior but the scrying is so useful.

[CovenantElite30]

This might be a little bit of a radical idea, but I've been play testing this with some success. How about a Rabbless build?
I went a more controlling route and yes the deck doesn't kill in 3 turns but it can now play the grind game if it needs to.

Here's where I'm currently at:

3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder
2 Quicksmith Rebel

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Blood Moon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
1 Icy Manipulator

1 Scalding Tarn
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


SB:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Ashen Rider

[menph]

hi there moon lovers!

i'm mainly a goblin player, but sometimes i love to play dragon stompy too.

in the last weeks i'm testing 1x Godo + 1x Batterskull maindeck. i don't know if it were been tested in the past
it's a tech from monoR sneak attack that i always found very interesting and imho works nice in dragonless stompy too (not in bridges-heavy builds of course)

the upsides here are:
-they are good beater with decent body for legacy's standards
-even without rituals, reaching 5 or 6 mana to cast them is not that hard tnx to sol lands and chandra's +1 ability
-it creates card advantage in a deck that need it a lot
-batterskull help us to recover life loss from ancient tomb or stabilize a board escaped from our control
-Godo's 2nd combat phase trigger is synergistic with batterskull and rabblemaster
-Godo also allow us to fetch a post-side Manriki Gusari against stonoforge decks (especialy D&T since it's bad MU) (i didn't tried this one yet)

have anybody tried it yet? what do you think?

[Karhumies]

in the last weeks i'm testing 1x Godo + 1x Batterskull maindeck.

have anybody tried it yet? what do you think?

Godo: Cmc6 can be rough to pay if the opponent is running Wasteland, or when you have an active Moon effect so you don't get double colorless. As you mentioned, Chandra can make it castable, but that requires that Chandra resolves in the first place and survives one extra turn. Into a board where Chandra would simply die, many of the cmc4 options are better because you can play one of those first to protect Chandra, then land Chandra next turn. Chandra itself wins the game for us, as long as we can just protect it. Using Chandra as a mana dork to fuel another win condition sounds like win-more to me.

Batterskull: Cmc 5 for Batterskull seems much more reasonable to me than the cmc6 of Godo. I am interested to hear your experience with a md Batterskull. Equipping it into Sin Prodder with Menace or Rabblemaster with huge ATK value when attacking sounds like the life gain could really stabilize the board for us in a long game.

tl;dr I would choose 2x Batterskull over 1x Batterskull + 1x Godo.

[jandax]

I still don't think people should be cutting cavern so quickly. This especially if you expect loads of blue decks that we shouldn't have a problem with. Seeing as how we don't have as much CA as the blue decks, i see cavern as a counterspell prison card like Blood Moon is to nonbasics.

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[menph]

Batterskull: Cmc 5 for Batterskull seems much more reasonable to me than the cmc6 of Godo. I am interested to hear your experience with a md Batterskull. Equipping it into Sin Prodder with Menace or Rabblemaster with huge ATK value when attacking sounds like the life gain could really stabilize the board for us in a long game.

tl;dr I would choose 2x Batterskull over 1x Batterskull + 1x Godo.

atm i found batterskull really nice.
agree with you about wastelands, sometimes Godo it's locked in my hand (expecially when rishadan ports are on the field too)

i'll follow your suggestion and will try to add a 2nd batterskull over Godo

[Karhumies]

I still don't think people should be cutting cavern so quickly.

Personally, I dislike Cavern of Souls because I can play basic mountain, basic mountain, City of Traitors / Ancient Tomb into Chandra or Fiery Confluence without getting Wastelanded in the process. Also, I get punished less by Price of Progress.

At the moment, I feel that at least in my meta most blue decks are playing "tax counters" + Wasteland. In my opinion, the solution is to just play a bit slower by not playing into Daze/Spell Pierce if possible. Simian Spirit Guide really helps with the Daze payments.

[jandax]

Agreed but I've been still happy with it. Sure it has its drawbacks, and with a suitable line of play its just another card in the deck that advances our strategy. Personally im not looking to slam a Chandra or confluence every turn 3 or 4. Just dont forget that those taxing counters are also costing you resources. Keeping them stranded in hand plus landing your threat is card advantage we need.

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[Karhumies]

Keeping them stranded in hand plus landing your threat is card advantage we need.

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I agree that turning the opposing counters into dead cards is card advantage for us. However, I feel that naming 1 creature type does not turn their counters into dead cards because they can counter our other stuff. Most of the time, I feel good when the opponent counters 1 of my creatures, because that means 1 less counter in their hand for F.Confluence, Chandra and E.Bridge.

What is your md creature package and what do you typically name to Cavern?

I have typically:

MD:
4-5 human
4 goblin
4 devil
1-2 dragon
0-2 horror

SB:
0-2 horror
0-2 elemental

[jandax]

My list is posted above. And im strictly naming human and goblin. As an example in my short write-up I stuck a magus to take over a game thanks to a cavern. Oracle text of moggcatcher states human as a creature type as well, and I've had people try to counter a cavern played moggcatcher. On human obv.

As to when I name what, depends on if I am trying to beat down or play control. Totally dependant on game situation

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[Karhumies]

My list is posted above. And im strictly naming human and goblin. As an example in my short write-up I stuck a magus to take over a game thanks to a cavern. Oracle text of moggcatcher states human as a creature type as well, and I've had people try to counter a cavern played moggcatcher. On human obv.

As to when I name what, depends on if I am trying to beat down or play control. Totally dependant on game situation

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8 Human (Magus + Moggcatcher)
8 Goblin (4 Rabble + 4 toolbox: Kiki-Jiki, Settler, Siege-Gang, Stingscourger)

It seems.

Good to know that Moggcatcher is a Human!

8 creatures per type is a lot more tribal than my 4-5 per type max, and definitely makes Cavern have more upsides. Uncounterable Moggcatcher can easily win games by itself. I am running more individually strong Creatures with more redundancy, less tribalism, so Cavern does not fit my "diversified creature type monored stompy" build as well as your Goblin Stompy list.

I've had an Imperial Painter name Moggcatcher into their Revoker blindly in g2. Fun stuff is, I wasn't running any in my list.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I've found Cavern of Souls to be a great addition if you're playing tribal humans (Magus, Scab-Clan, Pia, Pia + Kiran, Flamespeaker, etc., etc., etc.) without cards like Koth or Chandra.

I've tried Cavern in lists that split between Goblins and Humans and honestly I lost as many games from Cavern naming the opposite creature type as I've won from having the creatures be uncounterable... Plus the frustration of having Cavern and Tomb on board with a hand full of Blood Moons.

So... good card is good, but for each creature type added (or non-creature red card) you risk the danger of too many cool things.

[Zirath]

I still don't think people should be cutting cavern so quickly. This especially if you expect loads of blue decks that we shouldn't have a problem with. Seeing as how we don't have as much CA as the blue decks, i see cavern as a counterspell prison card like Blood Moon is to nonbasics.

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I had a 1-of Cavern when Miracles existed (Regent + Cavern + Chalice = impossible situation) but I wouldn't mind cutting it now since in general permission is receding to a point where there is no opposing softlock. No guarantee though since it can be clutch.

[jandax]

Because it's clutch, that's why I still run it. I would also consider shaving down one copy. The awkwardness of not casting the big red spells has come up but not enough to turn me off

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[Valleysdai]

Fnm report:

Result 3-1

Round1: eldrazi 2-0

Game 1: on the play, saw an eldrazi temple then turn 2 blood moon. Beat them down.

Game 2: Get blood moon and ensnaring bridge down then beat down.

Round 2: white prison

Game 1: I scoop because he has the lock (humility, trading post, wasteland, crucible, etc) and we only have 5 mins left on the round.

Game 2: I get mana screwed and get beaten down by elspeth tokens.

Note: he is extremely experienced with prison decks and told me that with experience I'll know what hands are good to keep.

Round 3: mono red sneak

Game 1: I get magus and blood moon down, he plays godo getting batters kill. I get bridge down and have rabblemaster in hand trying to get rabblemaster as the last card in hand. Kill him with chandra.

Game 2: I run a risky 7 (no hate but a lot of pressure). His 7 is almost a perfect hand but he mulligans it. Ends up mulliganing down to 3 (all lands). Turn 1 rabblemaster and when he plays pyromancy and I needle it, he scoops.

Round 4: storm
Game 1: got magus down T1 and then chalice on 1 and then on 0.

Game 2: trinisphere and moon prevented him from doing anything while I beat him down

What are people's thoughts on glorybringer? And what match ups do thunderbreak regents come in?

[CovenantElite30]

Fnm report:

Result 3-1

Round1: eldrazi 2-0

Game 1: on the play, saw an eldrazi temple then turn 2 blood moon. Beat them down.

Game 2: Get blood moon and ensnaring bridge down then beat down.

Round 2: white prison

Game 1: I scoop because he has the lock (humility, trading post, wasteland, crucible, etc) and we only have 5 mins left on the round.

Game 2: I get mana screwed and get beaten down by elspeth tokens.

Note: he is extremely experienced with prison decks and told me that with experience I'll know what hands are good to keep.

Round 3: mono red sneak

Game 1: I get magus and blood moon down, he plays godo getting batters kill. I get bridge down and have rabblemaster in hand trying to get rabblemaster as the last card in hand. Kill him with chandra.

Game 2: I run a risky 7 (no hate but a lot of pressure). His 7 is almost a perfect hand but he mulligans it. Ends up mulliganing down to 3 (all lands). Turn 1 rabblemaster and when he plays pyromancy and I needle it, he scoops.

Round 4: storm
Game 1: got magus down T1 and then chalice on 1 and then on 0.

Game 2: trinisphere and moon prevented him from doing anything while I beat him down

What are people's thoughts on glorybringer? And what match ups do thunderbreak regents come in?
Nice report. Stormbreathe Dragon is just better as a 5 mana flyer and has protection from white. Although 5 mana is a lot so maybe just play 1.

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[aus9tin24]

I'm building the deck right now and have it in proxies. I'm running 2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar...has anyone tried Hazoret the Fervent as the 4 drop? I've only played about 20 games with the deck so far so maybe I'm not seeing the strength of the Pia and Kiran Nalaar.

EDIT: I found the answer about 5 pages back... would still love to hear any additional feedback though.

[Valleysdai]

I'm building the deck right now and have it in proxies. I'm running 2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar...has anyone tried Hazoret the Fervent as the 4 drop? I've only played about 20 games with the deck so far so maybe I'm not seeing the strength of the Pia and Kiran Nalaar.

EDIT: I found the answer about 5 pages back... would still love to hear any additional feedback though.

I've had about 12 games and my experience with P&K is extremely good. They are very robust and the 2 Thopters are game winners.

The ability to sac any artifact at instant speed is useful for stopping cards like Echoing Truth and maelstrom pulse. Or just getting the last points of damage in.

I've won several games by getting bridge down and having 0 cards in hand and not playing a card until 2nd main so I can swing overhead with the Thopters.

In many match ups the flying is basically unblockable.

With regards to hazoret I'm going to wait and see. I'm not convinced but willing to be proved wrong.

[Wichtelman]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/635056#online

playtesting hard and got some 5-0 on magic online and tons of 4-1 but still failed to get the updated list to a 5-0... :P

http://i.imgur.com/gi7kqbk.jpg

will be updating the matchup section of the mtg salvation primer soon...

[Ace/Homebrew]

Hilarious that they labeled your deck UBR because of the Faerie Macabres and Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard.

Care to talk on your use of Karakas? Seems odd in a 8 Moon deck. :wink:

[Wichtelman]

well the karakas are mainly vs reanimator + show and tell -> ill sb out all moon-effects... if you have to play weird games vs nicfit or other decks playing tons of basics karakas + pia or jaya is insane... :-P
(most of the time try to not play it till they put their fatty into play)

still have to play more cuz some matchups ive still no real clue how to sb correctly or which gameplan is best... in some matchups you can keep slow hands and grind your opp instead of running into fow after using fast-mana... that said for most matchups it is pretty much set in stone how to sb...

atm testing stuff like sb around 2 karakas vs delver just to not get screwed or pyrokinesis vs reanimator if they play sire or vs storm if they are on the goblin plan...

then stuff like trini on the play and sb them out on the draw depending on the matchup ofc but most of the time vs control...

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/635056#online

playtesting hard and got some 5-0 on magic online and tons of 4-1 but still failed to get the updated list to a 5-0... :P

http://i.imgur.com/gi7kqbk.jpg

will be updating the matchup section of the mtg salvation primer soon...

http://i.tcgplayer.com/129730_200w.jpg

seems good in your deck but Jaya Ballard might be better, jaya is better under ensnaring bridge but hazoret is a monster when you don't have bridge

[Wichtelman]

seems good in your deck but Jaya Ballard might be better, jaya is better under ensnaring bridge but hazoret is a monster when you don't have bridge

actually you have to keep in mind that you will have a lot of games without a lock cuz your stuff gets forced or destroyed = hazoret has to do something to the board if that happens = i think it is not playable in my lists at least... if you have a lock it does not matter that much how you kill your opp but we have to do it quick to prevent recovering... if it would say can not attack or can not block i might play it but else i see myself not able to empty my hand to 0 in a lot of cases...

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

actually you have to keep in mind that you will have a lot of games without a lock cuz your stuff gets forced or destroyed = hazoret has to do something to the board if that happens = i think it is not playable in my lists at least... if you have a lock it does not matter that much how you kill your opp but we have to do it quick to prevent recovering... if it would say can not attack or can not block i might play it but else i see myself not able to empty my hand to 0 in a lot of cases...

you need 1 or less cards in your hand, not that hard to achieve imo

[Wichtelman]

well try it yourself but i personally dont want to be in a situation drawing him or having him doing nothing cuz im holding shocks confluence or something else...

[Valleysdai]

What are people's thoughts on eidolon of the great revel?

My thinking is that he hurts the opponent even if chalice counters their spell, he's a beatstick and he will be the target of our opponent's removal before our other creatures.

[jandax]

Many creatures featured in winning lists are way better than eidolon, it doesn't force through our strategy in a productive way

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[ZTurgeon]

What are people's thoughts on eidolon of the great revel?

My thinking is that he hurts the opponent even if chalice counters their spell, he's a beatstick and he will be the target of our opponent's removal before our other creatures.

He costs double red. Basically it's as easy to cast him as it is to cast something like Thunderbreak Regent as the first 2 colorless mana is likely to already be on the board.

[QQQ]

I understand the aggressive versions running Icy, as it works with their plan better than Bridge when concerned with larger creatures. I'm not sure why Icy itself though. Tapping Artifacts seems mostly useless. And while there are corner cases when tapping their one Basic might be worth it, I'm not certain those will justify the increased cost over many things that tap creatures much more cheaply.

[Wichtelman]

I understand the aggressive versions running Icy, as it works with their plan better than Bridge when concerned with larger creatures. I'm not sure why Icy itself though. Tapping Artifacts seems mostly useless. And while there are corner cases when tapping their one Basic might be worth it, I'm not certain those will justify the increased cost over many things that tap creatures much more cheaply.

easy... it sux to draw multiple bridges in most cases... the main reason to play both is to have stuff vs show and tell and icy is more flex... anyways it is your choice and its the same story for leyline vs faerie macabre as yard-hate for example...

[QQQ]

easy... it sux to draw multiple bridges in most cases... the main reason to play both is to have stuff vs show and tell and icy is more flex... anyways it is your choice and its the same story for leyline vs faerie macabre as yard-hate for example...

That.......didnt answer my question at all. Never even mentioned Bridge.

[zangoasyl]

That.......didnt answer my question at all. Never even mentioned Bridge.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/aer/168.jpg
or
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pvc/22.jpg
come to mind
... But I have not tested neither them nor the icy

[fluuu]

Went 4-1 in a local 5 round tournament on Sunday. Played goblin stompy in the shook meta and it felt great.
4 Moggcatcher
1 Kiki
1 Settler
1 Redcap
1 Siege gang
1 Stingscourger
4 Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Trinisphere
3 Fiery Confluence
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
9 Mountain

Side:
3 bridge
3 macabre
2 sudden demise
2 anarchy
2 ratchet bomb
2 Thorn of amethyst
1 sharpshooter

Round 1 vs 4c Delver
G1 one simply plays Moon turn two, and they Brainstorm off an open Usea and scoop. I do not board. G2 he sticks a delver turn one, then i bait a Rabblemaster off a city and ssg which eats a daze. He flips delver off a brainstorm on top, replays the land and passes back. I go cavern into magus and he's land locked. I peel lands into stingscourger on his delver that had beat me down to 7, then a 3ball seals it. Turns out the bait was good bc he had force for my turn two play not counting on cavern.
Round 2 vs burn
He won the die roll and thus the match. I pointed the first game by giving up before it was over by missing a chalice trigger. With 3ball on the board. Live and learn.
Round 3 Snic-fit
No idea what he's on and establish a board with moon chalice on 1 and chandra, felt good til sneak attack into Emrakul did me in. Games2 and 3 i see my bridges on time and beat him down with gobbos both games.
Round 4 Aluren
A close 3 games, moon was relevant even with 4+ basics in his deck. Kiki and settler got me a game under a moon lock and i overran him with turn one moggcatcher chaining into Rabbles the last game with only a few minutes on the clock.
Round 5 Gb elves.
Mull to 5, open with cotv on 1, peel a tomb to lay down chalice on 2, then peel a 3ball for turn 3 and feel good. 4 turns later i got hoofed. Ban Craterhoof. Games two and three i lock her out pretty easy and win handily.

Love this list. Thoughts?

[Wichtelman]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/aer/168.jpg
or
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pvc/22.jpg
come to mind
... But I have not tested neither them nor the icy

costs more mana to activate = harder to develope your board and if you have to set chalice on 1 array it is dead and icy is harder to kill cuz decay runs wild... anyways both can not tap lands...
(ill remove chandra and icy vs delver ofc)

[zangoasyl]

costs more mana to activate = harder to develope your board and if you have to set chalice on 1 array it is dead and icy is harder to kill cuz decay runs wild... anyways both can not tap lands...
Ok CMC 1 was my bad, but for CMC 2 there is trip noose...
Nevertheless that's not the important point. More interesting is the question of QQQ about how often you actually use the land tapping ability of the icy so that it's higher CMC is paying off!

[Wichtelman]

deleted

[NecroYawgmoth]

well it was written in may 2016 and ive not updated it since the top ban... there is a bridge version even if there are just 3 in that build... "sample-version-2"

just have written it to update the mtg salvation primer as the creator wasnt seen since ages... sadly moderators or admin is not able to update the primer till the forum gets an update... little bit strange but whatever...

would be happy about any input... specially after the top ban matchups will be different and i havnt played vs foodchain for example...

maybe im able to buy all cards on mtgo and also stream it that way i could be up to date in the matchup section...


Hello there folks.

It's true, I wasn't here for ages, and truth be told, I barely play Legacy anymore thanks to Modern.

Still...I am very happy that the deck evolved so much, and you guys kept developing it.

I have to agree that it's a shame that my primer isn't up to date anymore, but I am willing to rewrite it. I'd need the help of you guys here, either per PM or via Skype or E-mail because likeI I said I am completely out of the format.

If anyone bis interested to send me stocklists / textpassages, etc. feel free to contact me. You 'll get the credit for the work ofc.

Kind regards, and keep locking the opponents out,

Micha

[QQQ]

If you're running a deck with 8 Moons, 4 Chalice, and some pretty dangerous 3 CMC threats, and you're concerned about an opponent aiming Decay at your tapper, you are probably not spectacular at threat evaluation. If you are spending 4 mana plus an additional mana per turn to even-more lock someone who is already locked under a Moon instead of just killing them, you are probably not spectacular at resource management. More to the point, how often do you actually board in Icy against decks Moon is relevant against? How often do you board in Icy against decks that run Decay? It seems to me that Sneak and Reanimator are the two most relevant ones. Sneak runs Moon itself, and obviously doesn't have access to Decay. Reanimator ignores Moon, and while they can access Decay post board it will likely be aimed at different Artifacts. Unless it's U Reanimator. In which case you do have the advantage of Moon being somewhat relevant. Especially in shutting off Decay. But now you're adding another 4 mana spell against a deck that runs Force, Daze, Seize, and Pierce. Not sure if that's the place to be.

[Dice_Box]

icy is immune to decay... the tapping land part is important if they find their basic under a moon or just are able to fetch turn 1 if they are on the play or you just play t1 chalice... actually i had a game vs reanimator and he had iona g1 so my only out was icy under a bridge... as i said multiple times there is no 100% all in red list cuz it depends on your meta and you have to adjust... all that tap stuff might be playable but it is not about putting it out as soon as possible it is about having solutions to all kind of scenarios...
Please use capitalisation and punctuation or I will have to start deleting your posts. It's in the rules, please read them here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS&p=174024&viewfull=1#post174024).

Of note is this section of the first rule:

Presenting your thoughts clearly and coherently encourages others to take you seriously and to listen to what you have to say. The best way to do this is to use proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure. Also, spell your words correctly. Note the "Go Advanced" posting panel has a spell-checker.

Thank you. Dice.

[jandax]

Love this list. Thoughts?
Thoughts from me? I'd love to talk about the goblins build more. My preference to the build is purely subjective, I'm not stating that goblin stompy is the future. I just like playing with janky red cards.

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[Zirath]

Hello there folks.

It's true, I wasn't here for ages, and truth be told, I barely play Legacy anymore thanks to Modern.

Still...I am very happy that the deck evolved so much, and you guys kept developing it.

I have to agree that it's a shame that my primer isn't up to date anymore, but I am willing to rewrite it. I'd need the help of you guys here, either per PM or via Skype or E-mail because likeI I said I am completely out of the format.

If anyone bis interested to send me stocklists / textpassages, etc. feel free to contact me. You 'll get the credit for the work ofc.

Kind regards, and keep locking the opponents out,

Micha

As I mentioned before, I have the time and energy to take this over. I have my last final for this semester on Wednesday. After that, I can write up a new primer.

I can do that and share the text dump so the entire thread can agree on the content before we relaunch. I'd like to get this done this week or early next, long before GP Vegas.

[Valleysdai]

I have a GPT in my LGS on Saturday and I'd like your opinions and suggestions on my decklist:

9 snow-covered Mountain
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
2 gemstone cavern

3 chandra, torch of defiance
1 koth of the Hammer

4 chalice of the void
4 ensnaring bridge
2 trinisphere
3 chrome mox

4 blood moon

2 fiery confluence

2 magus of the moon
4 sin prodder
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 goblin rabblemaster
2 walking Ballista
4 simian spirit guide

Side:
2 grafdigger's cage
2 pithing needle
1 shattering spree
1 surgical extraction
1 cursed totem
1 spellskite
2 torpor orb
1 damping matrix
1 Kozilek's return
1 magus of the moon
1 trinisphere
1 Pyrokinesis


Personally I'm thinking of cutting Koth from the 75 but I'm not sure if I should and what to replace him with.

[jandax]

Fwiw: if this is your style of play you should switch to painter, seems that you want to prison them out but attacking through your own bridge can't work all the time. This is one of the more eclectic stompy lists I've seen. If you're looking to spike a Gpt it's better to go with a more stock list, and show up early to scout the room and decide on sideboard cards before the tournament starts.

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[Valleysdai]

Fwiw: if this is your style of play you should switch to painter, seems that you want to prison them out but attacking through your own bridge can't work all the time. This is one of the more eclectic stompy lists I've seen. If you're looking to spike a Gpt it's better to go with a more stock list, and show up early to scout the room and decide on sideboard cards before the tournament starts.

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Ironically I switched from painter to dragon stompy (and definitely prefer stompy), I actually thought my list was mostly stock. What makes it so eclectic?

I find the bridge is sometimes a lock piece itself.

[Jelmerz77]

Ironically I switched from painter to dragon stompy (and definitely prefer stompy), I actually thought my list was mostly stock. What makes it so eclectic?

I find the bridge is sometimes a lock piece itself.

You play 2 Magus main, if you are a prison deck you should at least play 8 Moon effects. (Unless you can tutor for 1 like in most painter lists)
I have not seen Walking Ballista a staple in any lists and it doesn't look synergetic with the other cards in your list. I might even say that Hangarback Walker would have more synergy.

And why Snowcovered Mountains? Just for flavor or is there a reason behind it?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Side:
2 grafdigger's cage
2 pithing needle
1 shattering spree
1 surgical extraction
1 cursed totem
1 spellskite
2 torpor orb
1 damping matrix
1 Kozilek's return
1 magus of the moon
1 trinisphere
1 Pyrokinesis

I've never been happy whenever I've tried out Spellskite. The Pithing Needles should arguably be Phyrexian Revokers.
But definitely 4 Maguses in the maindeck.

Here's some 'stock' lists for reference:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23186&iddeck=179652
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23117&iddeck=179094
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23067&iddeck=178510
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22970&iddeck=177715

[jandax]

Ironically I switched from painter to dragon stompy (and definitely prefer stompy), I actually thought my list was mostly stock. What makes it so eclectic?

I find the bridge is sometimes a lock piece itself.

I too have played painter for years and maybe that's what i saw in your list. You're wanting to spread yourself out more to cover more bases, but heed my advice and learn to play a stock list. There's several different flavours of the deck, i like goblin the best. Suit your style.

In essence lose the walking ballista for magus 7 and 8, move some number bridges to the side for extra copies of confluence, trade koth for chandra, cavern can go in lieu of basics or cavern of souls. Then you pretty much have a stock maindeck. Do you know what your bad match ups are? Base your side board around that, not what you expect to see. This is a hate.dec so your linear strategy guides decision making on which hands to keep and what cards to take out to side in. I believe fully that this deck needs to be able to play control as well as beat down in any given game.

Going back to your list,if you're just picking this deck up, go stock your first few tournaments. And take a stack of sideboard cards with you to the tournament and scout it out and fill in your side board registration on the spot. Hate 'en out bro

[Valleysdai]

You play 2 Magus main, if you are a prison deck you should at least play 8 Moon effects. (Unless you can tutor for 1 like in most painter lists)
I have not seen Walking Ballista a staple in any lists and it doesn't look synergetic with the other cards in your list. I might even say that Hangarback Walker would have more synergy.

And why Snowcovered Mountains? Just for flavor or is there a reason behind it?

I originally ran the list with 3 magus main but felt that I was seeing too many of them.

I tested walking Ballista out when I was still missing a few pieces and every time I've played it it's been useful, it can be a mini sweeper/instant answer, it can put pressure on the opponent with swinging and/or just pinging them.

I opted for snow-covered Mountains just to distract the opponent.


I've never been happy whenever I've tried out Spellskite. The Pithing Needles should arguably be Phyrexian Revokers.
But definitely 4 Maguses in the maindeck.

Here's some 'stock' lists for reference:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23186&iddeck=179652
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23117&iddeck=179094
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23067&iddeck=178510
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22970&iddeck=177715

I'm iffy on spellskite as well but still testing it out.

My main concerns with revoker are that it can't target lands and it's a creature with 1 toughness (a nonbo with fiery confluence) to sweep a board.

Thanks for the stock lists.


I too have played painter for years and maybe that's what i saw in your list. You're wanting to spread yourself out more to cover more bases, but heed my advice and learn to play a stock list. There's several different flavours of the deck, i like goblin the best. Suit your style.

In essence lose the walking ballista for magus 7 and 8, move some number bridges to the side for extra copies of confluence, trade koth for chandra, cavern can go in lieu of basics or cavern of souls. Then you pretty much have a stock maindeck. Do you know what your bad match ups are? Base your side board around that, not what you expect to see. This is a hate.dec so your linear strategy guides decision making on which hands to keep and what cards to take out to side in. I believe fully that this deck needs to be able to play control as well as beat down in any given game.

Going back to your list,if you're just picking this deck up, go stock your first few tournaments. And take a stack of sideboard cards with you to the tournament and scout it out and fill in your side board registration on the spot. Hate 'en out bro

I believe that my playstyle is very prison oriented.

So far I've done about 3/4 fnms with the deck and I'm going 2-1 every time. My losses coming when I'm mana screwed or against a more experienced prison pilot (he runs a mono white prison deck with humility). I am concerned about enchantments because I have no way of removing them.

I'm usually playing as the control player haha.

Thanks all for the suggestions, feedback and advice. :)

[Ace/Homebrew]

My main concern with revoker are that it can't target lands.
What lands are you trying to Needle?
Usually eight Blood Moons in the main deck are enough to let you worry about other things. :wink:

Opponent 'outs' to Blood Moon other than basic lands are often Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, or Lion's Eye Diamond.
Revoker shuts those down while Needle fails. Plus CMC 1 is a nonbo with Chalice of the Void.

[jandax]

No way to remove white enchantments you say?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170516/887c684747799267290bc9130b20ead4.jpg

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[Ace/Homebrew]

Yeah... but Anarchy is a pretty narrow card. In any 50+ player tournament I'd suggest several other cards before Anarchy for the sideboard.
But if a 16 player meta warrants including it, go nuts! (for what it's worth, Chaos Warp is probably the better card for the White Stax matchup)

[jandax]

No way, anarchy pulls work against dnt. It's not for destroying moat or humility. I run two specifically for that match up.

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[Ace/Homebrew]

No way, anarchy pulls work against dnt. It's not for destroying moat or humility. I run two specifically for that match up.
Why suggest it to Valleysdai as a solution to Most and Humility then? :eyebrow:

It's also hit or miss against D&T. The first problem is casting it against a deck that is known for mana-denial. Thalia adds to the problem. Finally it does nothing against the artifacts that give the white weenies teeth. Germ tokens are black and Revokers can carry weapons.

[jandax]

Anarchy has been a solid inclusion to the board for me. Doesn't have to work for everyone.

[Zirath]

Anarchy has been a solid inclusion to the board for me. Doesn't have to work for everyone.

I think the point in time where we needed Anarchy ended when we were blessed with Fiery Confluence. Until Enchantress or Stax return in large amounts, Anarchy is usually unnecessary. If your meta is inundated with Death and Taxes, this is likely okay, but I'd personally prefer to dedicate slots to more flexible options.

[LeoCop 90]

One point that i think needs to be remarked is to diversify the casting cost of your removal spells. If you already run 3-4 chandras and 3-4 fiery confluence in your main deck,and you then bring in anarchy, basically you likely lose on the spot to sanctum prelate naming four.
That's why i think better options against death and taxes are: pyrokinesis, sudden demise, sudden shock, kozilek's return (in this order in my opinion, but they are all good).

[Koby]

I likewise prefer Pyrokinesis for its application vs Elves and Grixis Delver decks.

[Zirath]

One point that i think needs to be remarked is to diversify the casting cost of your removal spells. If you already run 3-4 chandras and 3-4 fiery confluence in your main deck,and you then bring in anarchy, basically you likely lose on the spot to sanctum prelate naming four.
That's why i think better options against death and taxes are: pyrokinesis, sudden demise, sudden shock, kozilek's return (in this order in my opinion, but they are all good).

With Infect on the low and Miracles gone, I find Sudden Shock to not be worth the slot. Kozilek's Return is too much collateral damage for me though. Pyrokinesis is just the overall best for me since it allows us to get control of the board without sacrificing development.

[jandax]

Have not played with pyrokenisis in this deck, is it really worth the negative CA? Legit question. Always open to good ideas

[Ace/Homebrew]

Have not played with pyrokenisis in this deck, is it really worth the negative CA? Legit question. Always open to good ideas

Piggybacking off jandax's question for those who advocate Pyrokinesis...

Do you side out Chrome Mox when you bring in Kinesis?
Or is the swing in board presence enough to make up for the card disadvantage?

How many do you keep in the board?
Which matchups do they shine?

Is it really stronger than Sudden Demise?

[Koby]

Piggybacking off jandax's question for those who advocate Pyrokinesis...

Do you side out Chrome Mox when you bring in Kinesis?
Or is the swing in board presence enough to make up for the card disadvantage?

How many do you keep in the board?
Which matchups do they shine?

Is it really stronger than Sudden Demise?

I never picked up this deck for its card advantage. It's about the tempo play while still deploying more threats. Against deck with DRS, we primarily need to kill the doctor and lockout colored mana generators. I typically utilize dedundant Moon effects to cast Pyrokinesis.

[ZTurgeon]

Piggybacking off jandax's question for those who advocate Pyrokinesis...

Do you side out Chrome Mox when you bring in Kinesis?
Or is the swing in board presence enough to make up for the card disadvantage?

How many do you keep in the board?
Which matchups do they shine?

Is it really stronger than Sudden Demise?

Basically, how do decks deal with having card disadvantage from Force of Will? You just accept that the value of the card is worth more than the 2 cards you are spending.

And it's stronger than Sudden Demise in most cases. Sure, if you are facing down 16 1/1 goblins, you want demise, but overall, in most normal games, being able to pick off 2+ guys at instant speed for zero mana is a godsend in the matchups were you bring it in.

Card advantage is just not a thing I have ever cared about in this deck. Sure you lose matches where you spend a pile of cards only to have your two relevant cards answered, but if you could routinely win those games, the deck would be banned. Those are the games you are "supposed" to lose and understanding that makes you win more games overall.

[Valleysdai]

After reading through the links of stock lists that ACE/Homebrew posted I have several questions.

1. What's the verdict on Koth and quicksmith rebel? I'm debating on cutting Koth and rebel is one of the cards I'm looking at.

2. What's your thoughts on the best number for chandra, trinisphere and chrome mox in the main?

Thanks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

How do decks deal with having card disadvantage from Force of Will?
Well, we already have our own FoW (in terms of card disadvantage) in the form of Chrome Mox. But still I understand the point you and Koby are making: If [insert card] is likely to win you the game, the card disadvantage is irrelevant.


Regarding Valleysdai's questions:
1. I haven't tried Quicksmith Rebel, so I'm no help there. Just be aware that if you tap Trinisphere, it 'turns off'. Koth is a strong card, but has been somewhat outclassed recently by Chandra.
2. 4, 3 (with 1 in sideboard), 4

[Lyle Hopkins]

Hi, everyone,

I've been playing R/W Painter for the past year, but since Sensei's Divining Top got banned, I've started brewing with Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon again.

I went 3-1 at my local Legacy weekly with this greasy pile.

Mono-Red Chalice Moon

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Crystal Ball
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Spellskite
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Blood Moon
4 Sudden Shock
12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Avalanche Riders
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Manic Vandal
1 Goblin Welder
4 Fiery Confluence


Round One: Dredge
Game One (Win): Turn one Chalice of the Void on one, then turn two Chalice of the Void on zero and Ensnaring Bridge.
Game Two (Loss): Stuck on two mana and got dredged.
Game Three (Win): Turn one Trinisphere gets there.
1-0

Round Two: Tezzeret
Game One (Loss): Got Dacked.
Game Two (Win): Turn one Blood Moon, then Fiery Confluence their signet.
Game Three (Win): Once again, Blood Moon and Fiery Confluence are strong.
2-0

Round Three: Storm
Game One (Win): Turn one Chalice of the Void, then turn two Goblin Rabblemaster.
Game Two (Loss): I mull to five and keep a no-lander with Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Magus of the Moon, red card, and Trinisphere. Opponent fetches an Underground Sea and casts Duress targeting my Trinisphere. I rip a Mountain and stick Magus of the Moon for the win.
3-0

Round Four: Death & Taxes
Game One (Loss): Turn one Chalice of the Void doesn't cut it.
Game Two (Loss): Avalanche Riders kept them off of double white under a Moon, but I still couldn't get there.
3-1

I've been having a lot of fun brewing with this deck again. Fiery Confluence and Chandra, Torch of Defiance have been great additions! I think I might want another copy of Avalanche Riders or maybe even a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in the 75. As always, feedback is greatly appreciated.

[hofzge]

Regarding Valleysdai's questions:
1. I haven't tried Quicksmith Rebel, so I'm no help there. Just be aware that if you tap Trinisphere, it 'turns off'. Koth is a strong card, but has been somewhat outclassed recently by Chandra.

I think the choice for good Beaters that are ok behind a bridge and might survive a confluence there are:

Pia and Kiran Nalaar - The generic best choice and 4 power over 3 bodies = 3 blockers / quite mana intense to ping / half of it dies to Confluence for 1 and the other half to Confluence for 2

Quicksmith Rebel - 3 power on 1 card so mediocre on defense / probably best pinger especially late game when you have a Chrome Mox or Bridge lying around / Dies to Confluence for 2

Koth of the Hammerl - Absolutely worthless on defense / after 2 turns it iis the best pinger behind a bridge / Does not die to Confluence

Of those choices I would go with the consensus 2 Pia & Kiran and 1 Quicksmith. Due to that it might be called for to play some number of Great Furnace.

On another note:
What do you guys think about the Sin Prodder. I know he is an ok Pinger behind a bridge, but the effect is quite lackluster, he dies to anything and 3/2 for 3 is nothing fancy. Now that the deck is much more about hiding behind prison elements I would rather play some Revokers or anything a bit more synergistic and defensive, especially as now everyone is playing Deathrite Shaman.



2. 4, 3 (with 1 in sideboard), 4

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance - No doubt here. It's the by far best card in the deck and makes this deck much more consistent than earlier creature based Dragon Stompy versions

3 Trinisphere - Your ticket to resolving your spells

4 Chrome Mox - For the T1 Moon effects

[QQQ]

I'm having trouble understanding how the versions of this deck cutting virtually all aggressive elements for Bridge main are able to win against decks that can counter, remove, or ignore the lock pieces. Especially ones that can construct a lethal board state and then remove Bridge. I disagree with Bridge main, as much like Trinisphere, there are several decks that it does little to nothing against. But that's just my philosophy, and I'm sure there's reasoning behind it. But when boarding it in against, say, a Griselbrand deck, I don't see how you still win. You can chip damage with Chandra and Pia, but you can't attack even if you legally could since their block will undo all your damage. And they'll have many turns to dig for answers which you lose to as soon as they find. In decks that aren't set up to run Bridge main, since I can't see myself doing so, what specific matchups do you bring it in, and what is your plan to win once it's in play?

[Valleysdai]

I've just finished some testing against grixis sneak and tell running 4 thoughtseize main. It has made it a lot more difficult to beat. Has anyone else encountered this version of sneak and tell?

With regards to bridge main I am a big believer that they should be main, they provide us with free wins against several decks, allow us time to dig for answers/threats and if nothing else you can use them as counter bait.

[pinkfrosting]

I'm having trouble understanding how the versions of this deck cutting virtually all aggressive elements for Bridge main are able to win against decks that can counter, remove, or ignore the lock pieces. Especially ones that can construct a lethal board state and then remove Bridge. I disagree with Bridge main, as much like Trinisphere, there are several decks that it does little to nothing against. But that's just my philosophy, and I'm sure there's reasoning behind it. But when boarding it in against, say, a Griselbrand deck, I don't see how you still win. You can chip damage with Chandra and Pia, but you can't attack even if you legally could since their block will undo all your damage. And they'll have many turns to dig for answers which you lose to as soon as they find. In decks that aren't set up to run Bridge main, since I can't see myself doing so, what specific matchups do you bring it in, and what is your plan to win once it's in play?

I play bridge in the main. Almost every deck in the meta aside from ANT and other storm-ish decks are weak to it, and your other lock pieces shut off their answers to it (usually decay). Blood Moon especially makes decay very hard to cast. The bridge/walker heavy version of this deck plays a lot more like vintage MUD in that your goal is to simply completely lock your opponent out of playing any cards rather than temporarily lock them out buying you time to get damage in and kill them. It's a very different philosophy which before was rather weak to miracles as they ran basics and plenty of answers to our lock pieces that were easy to cast under a moon. The ladder now consists of mostly deathrite decks, which are very weak to blood moon, fairly weak to bridge, and usually fold if both are in play.

[Valleysdai]

Gpt report:

5 rounds went 2-3, it was one of those days.

Round 1: Burn

Game 1: got chalice on 1, get killed with eidolon and grim lavamancer.

Game 2: I get chalice on 2, stabilise on 1 and win due to him just drawing lands for 5 turns.

Game 3: chalice on 1 again and I get beat with eidolons, drew 3 bridges (I sided the 4th out).

Round 2: storm

Game 1: he plays basic island and I chose to rabblemaster instead of chalice for 1. He ad nauseams down to 1 and wins.

Game 2: Get trinisphere T1 but struggle on 2 lands for several turns while he gets 3, decays the trinisphere and wins.

Round 3: white prison

Game 1: rabblemaster T1 gets there. I told him it was a risky hand and he says that's an auto win against his deck.

Game 2: lock the game out with damping matrix and beat him with chandra uptick and a 1/1 sin prodder.

Round 4: esper deathblade

Game 1: kills me with value.

Game 2: I lock him out and kill him with my creatures.

Game 3: True-Name Nemesis is a very interactive card and rabblemaster got him to about 40 life.

Round 5 : Bye (with the way I've been playing I was expecting to lose to it haha)

Overall it just wasn't my day at all. I took several wrong lines, sideboarded terribly and got totally wrecked by bad draws.

3 cards stood out to me (not in a good way):

Koth, is a win more card and does nothing when behind. Cut him for a chandra.

Ensnaring bridge, 4 are too many so I've cut 1 and moved another to the sideboard. Replacements are 2 trinispheres main. For the meta in my LGS 4 seems right (lots of storm, elves, etc). I am sad about cutting bridge, may go up to 3.

Goblin rabblemaster, against decks with lifelink he is worse than useless but in other games he's totally backbreaking. May go down to 2/3, chrome mox is 1 replacement (just need to decide whether it's rabblemaster or sin prodder that gets cut).

Spellskite is a possible cut but need to test it more (didn't see it at all).

[hofzge]

I'm having trouble understanding how the versions of this deck cutting virtually all aggressive elements for Bridge main are able to win against decks that can counter, remove, or ignore the lock pieces. Especially ones that can construct a lethal board state and then remove Bridge. I disagree with Bridge main, as much like Trinisphere, there are several decks that it does little to nothing against. But that's just my philosophy, and I'm sure there's reasoning behind it. But when boarding it in against, say, a Griselbrand deck, I don't see how you still win. You can chip damage with Chandra and Pia, but you can't attack even if you legally could since their block will undo all your damage. And they'll have many turns to dig for answers which you lose to as soon as they find. In decks that aren't set up to run Bridge main, since I can't see myself doing so, what specific matchups do you bring it in, and what is your plan to win once it's in play?

I think this version is one of the bigger steps forward. Now that you have Fiery Confluence, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Quicksmith Rebel, to a lesser degree Sin Prodder and even more exotic choices like Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Exquisite Firecraft you are much more a control deck.

One of the problems that has always plagued this deck is that the lock pieces were good, but the followup creatures were just plain bad. since Goblin Rabblemaster this has partly changed, but all the other guys in the deck are still not really worth their cardboard. Magus of the Moon is a necessary evil, but a Gray Ogre is nothing to write home about.

With Firy Confluence you want to play less creatures and with Chandra you finally have something else to play that is worth it. Ensnaring Bridge has always been a great sideboard card and now you can legitimately play it main as it wins some of your worst matchups (BR Reanimator, Sneak & Show) pre-sideboard. With stuff like Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Quicksmith Rebel you have good pingers to kill the smaller creatures and to sit behind a bridge and shoot down your opponent.

I think you cannot really compare this to what the deck is with Goblin Rabblemaster as it also works entirely differently strategically. If you have creatures you will not want Bridge or Fiery Confluence. You want more aggressive creatures and no Quicksmith Rebel.

TLDR: If you like Stompy then play the Rabblemaster version - if you like prison then play the Bridge version.

[QQQ]

I think this version is one of the bigger steps forward. Now that you have Fiery Confluence, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Quicksmith Rebel, to a lesser degree Sin Prodder and even more exotic choices like Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Exquisite Firecraft you are much more a control deck.

One of the problems that has always plagued this deck is that the lock pieces were good, but the followup creatures were just plain bad. since Goblin Rabblemaster this has partly changed, but all the other guys in the deck are still not really worth their cardboard. Magus of the Moon is a necessary evil, but a Gray Ogre is nothing to write home about.

With Firy Confluence you want to play less creatures and with Chandra you finally have something else to play that is worth it. Ensnaring Bridge has always been a great sideboard card and now you can legitimately play it main as it wins some of your worst matchups (BR Reanimator, Sneak & Show) pre-sideboard. With stuff like Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Quicksmith Rebel you have good pingers to kill the smaller creatures and to sit behind a bridge and shoot down your opponent.

I think you cannot really compare this to what the deck is with Goblin Rabblemaster as it also works entirely differently strategically. If you have creatures you will not want Bridge or Fiery Confluence. You want more aggressive creatures and no Quicksmith Rebel.

TLDR: If you like Stompy then play the Rabblemaster version - if you like prison then play the Bridge version.


Thank you for that explanation. Where I see an issue is, none of the lock pieces are enough to take most opponents out of the game. And the deck is not able to deal much damage under a Bridge. In a decent timeframe, anyway. So the enemy does have time to find answers. If they are able to develop their board in the meantime, you die as soon as they remove Bridge. I understand that many decks cannot deal with Bridge game one. But there are many decks which playing a Bridge can hurt you worse than them in game one. For instance, having Bridge instead of Rabblemaster against Storm, or Infect completely swings the matchup in the wrong direction. It's not that I don't see the value. It's that I think it's a far more narrow card main than merits inclusion. The whole reason for a SB is to bring in cards to shore up your bad matchups. And at the same time, it forces you to run fragile, overcosted cards like Pia and Rebel to justify running it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think you cannot really compare this to what the deck is with Goblin Rabblemaster as it also works entirely differently strategically. If you have creatures you will not want Bridge or Fiery Confluence. You want more aggressive creatures and no Quicksmith Rebel.

TLDR: If you like Stompy then play the Rabblemaster version - if you like prison then play the Bridge version.
Fiery Confluence and aggressive creatures are not mutually exclusive. One of the options with FC is '6 damage to opponent'.
And I've never ever seen a Stompy list play Exquisite Firecraft... ever.


I've been brewing since the meta shakeup, but nothing I'm fully happy with yet.
But my general idea is sweepers like Rolling Earthquake, Bonfire of the Damned, and Fiery Confluence, along with a threat base of Hanweir Watchkeep, Qal Sisma Behemoth, and Smuggler's Copter.

[hofzge]

Fiery Confluence and aggressive creatures are not mutually exclusive. One of the options with FC is '6 damage to opponent'.
And I've never ever seen a Stompy list play Exquisite Firecraft... ever.


My bad I meant Collective Defiance...

[Valleysdai]

I think this version is one of the bigger steps forward. Now that you have Fiery Confluence, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Quicksmith Rebel, to a lesser degree Sin Prodder and even more exotic choices like Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Exquisite Firecraft you are much more a control deck.

One of the problems that has always plagued this deck is that the lock pieces were good, but the followup creatures were just plain bad. since Goblin Rabblemaster this has partly changed, but all the other guys in the deck are still not really worth their cardboard. Magus of the Moon is a necessary evil, but a Gray Ogre is nothing to write home about.

With Firy Confluence you want to play less creatures and with Chandra you finally have something else to play that is worth it. Ensnaring Bridge has always been a great sideboard card and now you can legitimately play it main as it wins some of your worst matchups (BR Reanimator, Sneak & Show) pre-sideboard. With stuff like Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Quicksmith Rebel you have good pingers to kill the smaller creatures and to sit behind a bridge and shoot down your opponent.

I think you cannot really compare this to what the deck is with Goblin Rabblemaster as it also works entirely differently strategically. If you have creatures you will not want Bridge or Fiery Confluence. You want more aggressive creatures and no Quicksmith Rebel.

TLDR: If you like Stompy then play the Rabblemaster version - if you like prison then play the Bridge version.

I run both bridge and rabblemaster, they both have their ups and downs (usually against opposite archetypes) but you can keep the othere in hand.

With rabblemaster it can be too slow for storm.

A card I'm testing in the side is everlasting torment. It's useful against lifegain, TNN, bigger creatures, etc.

[fluuu]

My bad I meant Collective Defiance...

Could someone post the best goblins version?

Thanks

[QQQ]

I run both bridge and rabblemaster, they both have their ups and downs (usually against opposite archetypes) but you can keep the othere in hand.

With rabblemaster it can be too slow for storm.

A card I'm testing in the side is everlasting torment. It's useful against lifegain, TNN, bigger creatures, etc.

Sound like a good idea. Please let us know what testing reveals.

[harbingerofthevoid]

Does Wither work for TNN?

702.77a. Wither is a static ability. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither isn't marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature. See rule 119.3.

It's still damage right so TNN is immune?

[QQQ]

Does Wither work for TNN?

702.77a. Wither is a static ability. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither isn't marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature. See rule 119.3.

It's still damage right so TNN is immune?

TNN has protection from Yu.

Protection prevents all damage from the source protected from.

Torment says damage can't be prevented.

Still can't target or block. But combat damage and sweepers apply.

[harbingerofthevoid]

aww snap! I read Everlasting Torment over and over and just didn't let the "can't be prevented" sink in.

[jandax]

Haven't tested torment either but it seems bad to take a turn off to play this at any point in the game. Maybe I'm not looking at it from the right angle. Without having searched if such a creature exists, I think this effect would have a better impact were it on a creature. However once on the table it does let fiery confluence kill tnn.

Aside question, have people had problems with lifegain? If so, what and is it worth the sideboard space ?



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[Valleysdai]

Haven't tested torment either but it seems bad to take a turn off to play this at any point in the game. Maybe I'm not looking at it from the right angle. Without having searched if such a creature exists, I think this effect would have a better impact were it on a creature. However once on the table it does let fiery confluence kill tnn.

Aside question, have people had problems with lifegain? If so, what and is it worth the sideboard space ?



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The beauty is that it allows us to kill TNN, make griselbrand/batterskull/jitte worse and allows our small creatures and sweepers to wittle down the opponent's big creatures.

There are quite a few decks that I can envision it being good against (haven't had a chance to test it yet).

I've had issues with lifegain especially when I have rabblemaster out and then they cast the life linker.

[QQQ]

Haven't tested torment either but it seems bad to take a turn off to play this at any point in the game. Maybe I'm not looking at it from the right angle. Without having searched if such a creature exists, I think this effect would have a better impact were it on a creature. However once on the table it does let fiery confluence kill tnn.

Aside question, have people had problems with lifegain? If so, what and is it worth the sideboard space ?



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It doesn't exist on a creature except for a few that damage that they deal can't be prevented. Too narrow. If you're more concerned about casting the card, Leyline is very close to this. And can still be hard cast in this deck. But you lose the Wither clause. Which makes a narrow SB card even more so. I see this more as a 2-of, boarded in against Blade and TNN decks just to supplement our primary strategy. Making sure we don't get blown out by TNN or Skull. Mainly the U/W/x SFM-TNN decks and DnT/Maverick. Since it deals with Mom as well. And it would come in vs. Infect as well, of course.

[Valleysdai]

It doesn't exist on a creature except for a few that damage that they deal can't be prevented. Too narrow. If you're more concerned about casting the card, Leyline is very close to this. And can still be hard cast in this deck. But you lose the Wither clause. Which makes a narrow SB card even more so. I see this more as a 2-of, boarded in against Blade and TNN decks just to supplement our primary strategy. Making sure we don't get blown out by TNN or Skull. Mainly the U/W/x SFM-TNN decks and DnT/Maverick. Since it deals with Mom as well. And it would come in vs. Infect as well, of course.

I would also see it coming in against sneak and show, jund, UGx delver varients and maybe reanimator.

It hits griselbrand hard, limits deathrite, improves P&K's shock ability against tarmogoyfs and other big creatures, etc.

[QQQ]

I would also see it coming in against sneak and show, jund, UGx delver varients and maybe reanimator.

It hits griselbrand hard, limits deathrite, improves P&K's shock ability against tarmogoyfs and other big creatures, etc.

I cant imagine having the slots vs Delver or Reanimator. But yes vs Sneak, though it's extremely narrow there. Deathrite vs. 8 Moons never gains life. I don't run Pia, but sure it would be good there.

Of course, all of this is academic unless it's tested in said circumstances.

[Ace/Homebrew]

My bad I meant Collective Defiance...
No worries! Makes more sense now. :wink:


Haven't tested torment either but it seems bad to take a turn off to play this at any point in the game.
I don't think you are wrong here. Usually the best card in the deck against True-Name Nemesis is Blood Moon. Against all but Merfolk (which hardly occupies enough meta-share to worry about), TNN decks play a singleton Island.*



Could someone post the best goblins version?
I don't think there's a consensus on this yet.
But once again, I refer to TC Decks:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22231&iddeck=171434
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21623&iddeck=166056
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21608&iddeck=165868
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21383&iddeck=163901
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21025&iddeck=160745



*Edit - I stand corrected! Looks like most Blade lists play two Islands. But I think my point still stands.

[jandax]

Just thought I'd leave this here. Big thanks to Julian23 for crunching the numbers!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170523/72140407783aa21b0e2ec8f71fd601de.jpg

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[QQQ]

Haven't tested torment either but it seems bad to take a turn off to play this at any point in the game.


I could literally list hundreds of small, corner cases. But the easiest would be when you already have creatures in play and ready to attack, and your opponent drops TNN, Skull, (active)Mom, Griselbrand, or anything large enough where it's blocking won't kill it normally, but Wither reduces it to ineffectiveness. You untap, play Torment, swing. Be more than happy to "take a turn off" to keep attacking.


EDIT: Deathblade decks run 4 TNN, and 8 mana dorks. Unless you drop Moon T1 on the play through Force, banking on it to deal with TNN by itself will probably not work out as often as you would like.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I could literally list hundreds of small, corner cases.
I don't think you could. :tongue:


The easiest would be when you already have creatures in play and ready to attack, and your opponent drops TNN, Skull, (active)Mom, Griselbrand, or anything large enough where it's blocking won't kill it normally, but Wither reduces it to ineffectiveness. You untap, play Torment, swing. Be more than happy to "take a turn off" to keep attacking.
So it's good at suiciding your team into a Griselbrand so he's just a 3/3 flyer? Or at making your opponent pay :4::w: to bounce and replay Batterskull?


EDIT: Deathblade decks run 4 TNN, and 8 mana dorks. Unless you drop Moon T1 on the play through Force, banking on it to deal with TNN by itself will probably not work out as often as you would like.
I bet it works as often as Everlasting Torment does. :wink:

[QQQ]

I don't think you could. :tongue:

You would be incorrect. But then, it seems you think I need to prove something to you. Which also would be incorrect.



So it's good at suiciding your team into a Griselbrand so he's just a 3/3 flyer? Or at making your opponent pay :4::w: to bounce and replay Batterskull?

Griselbrand can only block one creature. If the rest are enough to kill the opponent, yes. I'd happily do so. And if Torment is in play, no matter how many times your opponent may bounce and/or replay Batterskull, it wont gain them life. If you are allowing them time to do so when they are not gaining life, then you probably are playing sub-optimally.


I bet it works as often as Everlasting Torment does. :wink:

While I dislike being baited, I'd dislike it more if people reading this thread were mislead by people who have no idea what they are talking about. Both TNN and SFM present real obstacles for this deck. If you think that what is shaping up to be the best, and most popular version of a deck running those cards that runs a minimum of 8 T1 ways to stop Moon effects, and 8 T1 creatures that let them play through Moon, is just not going to be able to cast it's spells vs you, you're overly optimistic.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I look forward to your tournament reports and analysis that proves me wrong!

[Valleysdai]

Just thought I'd leave this here. Big thanks to Julian23 for crunching the numbers!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170523/72140407783aa21b0e2ec8f71fd601de.jpg

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I'm surprised by a few of those statistics. Against show and tell (non grixis version) I'm 100% with about 5 matches and I played against food chain in about 5 games pre and 5 post sideboard and I'm 100% there too.

Thanks for posting them though, it's handy to compare hoe different versions of the deck fare against various match ups.

[jandax]

Yeah my own experience is a lil different but it's great to see so well put together

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[hofzge]

I'm surprised by a few of those statistics. Against show and tell (non grixis version) I'm 100% with about 5 matches and I played against food chain in about 5 games pre and 5 post sideboard and I'm 100% there too.

Thanks for posting them though, it's handy to compare hoe different versions of the deck fare against various match ups.

Have you seen the number of matches - This data is far from being in anyhow relevant statistically. Sometimes the data is based on one match.


You would be incorrect. But then, it seems you think I need to prove something to you. Which also would be incorrect.

Come on - You suggest a very wild card with very limited uses and then say: "I don't need to prove anything to anyone."
That's fair but then you have to accept that anyone can critisize your suggestion.
As for me I think Torment is a 3 mana do nothing card with no influence on the field. I would rather play Meekstone against TNN than this (and I would never play Meekstone and Chalice in the same deck).

[QQQ]

Come on - You suggest a very wild card with very limited uses and then say: "I don't need to prove anything to anyone."
That's fair but then you have to accept that anyone can critisize your suggestion.
As for me I think Torment is a 3 mana do nothing card with no influence on the field. I would rather play Meekstone against TNN than this (and I would never play Meekstone and Chalice in the same deck).

I didn't suggest the card. I do think it merits testing though. I didn't say I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I said that I could come up with hundreds of corner cases where the effects of Torment could apply. He said I couldn't. Not going to type out a huge amount of useless data to prove a point to anyone. That I will admit to. The suggestion wasn't being criticized. He was taking potshots. Trying either to appear knowledgeable about something he couldn't know about, or trying to appear clever by throwing out quips and baiting an argument. As evidenced by comparing Torment to Deathblade resolving TNN through Moon effects. A situation that I do have experience with.

[Valleysdai]

Have you seen the number of matches - This data is far from being in anyhow relevant statistically. Sometimes the data is based on one match.

My thinking is that we could develop it where we have a graph for the main variations and update it every so often so that we can have a rough idea of how each variant fares.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I said that I could come up with hundreds of corner cases where the effects of Torment could apply. He said I couldn't. Not going to type out a huge amount of useless data to prove a point to anyone. That I will admit to. The suggestion wasn't being criticized. He was taking potshots. Trying either to appear knowledgeable about something he couldn't know about, or trying to appear clever by throwing out quips and baiting an argument.
Funny, cause I can literally list hundreds of posts I've contributed to this thread between your last one in 2007 and your most recent ones this month.
You know what's come up a few times in between 2007 and last month? Everlasting Torment!
And anyone who mentions it eventually stops because other cards have a more significant impact on a larger portion of the meta-game.

You saying you could come up with a list of a hundred corner cases is equivalent to you saying nothing.

[QQQ]

Funny, cause I can literally list hundreds of posts I've contributed to this thread between your last one in 2007 and your most recent ones this month.
You know what's come up a few times in between 2007 and last month? Everlasting Torment!
And anyone who mentions it eventually stops because other cards have a more significant impact on a larger portion of the meta-game.

You saying you could come up with a list of a hundred corner cases is equivalent to you saying nothing.

Congrats? Should I be impressed that you post a lot in this thread? I mean, I'm not. Because saying you have hundreds of post in this thread is equivalent to you saying nothing. I am impressed how quickly you've gone on a tangent, boasting about a post count, and relaying my dates of entry. And I'm equally unimpressed by your appeal to do what everyone else does. Your insistence that other cards have more impact on the meta is equivalent to saying nothing. I could name hundreds of cards that would be playable in the deck you could say the exact same thing about.

[pinkfrosting]

Although he could have been a lot more tactful, I have to agree with Ace on this one. Torment being effective requires that you have a developed board and are staring down a very specific threat, and that you have an answer for that threat in addition to everlasting torment (a sweeper to kill TNN for example). Our deck often requires us to pitch cards or take land heavy hands with the hopes of resolving one or two critical lock pieces and then winning later in the game. I'd rather not have a card in my deck, even post board, that does as little as torment does on its own.

Also ensnaring bridge + threats with reach is already a much more effective answer to TNN/batterskull/etc..

[QQQ]

Although he could have been a lot more tactful, I have to agree with Ace on this one. Torment being effective requires that you have a developed board and are staring down a very specific threat, and that you have an answer for that threat in addition to everlasting torment (a sweeper to kill TNN for example). Our deck often requires us to pitch cards or take land heavy hands with the hopes of resolving one or two critical lock pieces and then winning later in the game. I'd rather not have a card in my deck, even post board, that does as little as torment does on its own.

Also ensnaring bridge + threats with reach is already a much more effective answer to TNN/batterskull/etc..

Good answer. Nothing wrong with discussion and opinion on differences. Saying a card shouldn't be discussed because you've dismissed it is not only bad form, it's bad for further development.

On your last sentence. I've been trying to get someone to explain to me how this works. If you have Bridge, and they have TNN, and/or Skull, you can't attack unless I guess you have a flier with power 3 or less. So you are depending on a few cards to win. Sin Prodder barely counts, but may get a few points. Confluence, and Chandra. It's a pretty anemic clock. And a deck with TNN is not only going to have countermagic, they are going to have ways to find answers to Bridge. I guess I just can't see killing them before they can do so.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Saying a card shouldn't be discussed because you've dismissed it is not only bad form, it's bad for further development.
I'm going to take your words out of my mouth, and then hopefully we can stop bickering.
I never said a discussion of Everlasting Torment wasn't warranted, just that the hoops required to make it effect the game are not better than aiming for what this deck does best (play Blood Moon on turn 1).

For the sake of argument... yes, resolving both Everlasting Torment and Fiery Confluence past an opponent with counter-magic will kill True-Name Nemesis. It is also likely to wipe or significantly weaken your board. It is also likely the opponent plays more than one TNN and you'll have to assemble both cards through counter-magic for each copy the opponent plays. Meanwhile each of his 4 cards is extremely live while all duplicate copies of Torment are useless. But if you only play 1 then it's difficult to assemble the 'game-not-losing' combo.

Which leads into QQQ's question about Ensnaring Bridge as an answer to TNN... He's right, it's not. It basically delays the game until they deal with all copies of bridge, you reach a point where you cannot keep less than 3 cards in hand, or someone goes to draw a card and cannot. The Stompy player basically has to already be ahead or have a favorable board state to eek out a win.

For example... I have 2 Sin Prodders in play with 3 cards in hand and pass the turn. Opponent plays TNN and passes with an otherwise empty board. I draw and attack, play Bridge and a land. From that point I can still get in damage and hide behind bridge, but it all starts to falls apart if he plays another creature.*

Which returns us to the point I was unsuccessfully trying to make initially: Some matchups and board-states are unwinnable. In my opinion, any scenario that requires Everlasting Torment to get out of is not worth the space or effort. If I focus my strategy on winning in the first 2 turns against TNN decks, I will have the same or better chances than if I focus on winning the long game (which we're still likely to lose!).

In the last few months, Sergi (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Deck-Dragon-Stompy&p=995407&viewfull=1#post995407) and Ace of Jacks (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Deck-Dragon-Stompy&p=998612&viewfull=1#post998612) have both been testing Everlasting Torment. If either are still following the thread, could you share your experience with the card?


*Even here, I forgot about Prodder's triggered ability which is likely to make it harder to hide under a bridge...

[QQQ]

Ok. So though I'm certain it will be met with the same disdain, let me present what I've been testing for such circumstances.


I play a pretty stock Rabblemaster version. It's not set up as well as the versions with Bridge main to attempt to chip damage people out from behind Bridge. I do run Bridge, but it's in the SB for the usual matchups.

I think most would agree that running Dragons main works out poorly far more often than well right now. And since this version needs something for Control, specifically Blade Control, what I've been doing is running 2 Stormbreath Dragon in the side(in those 2 Torment slots I was talking about). Also for DnT, unsurprisingly. Which allows me to run just 2 Sulfur in the board. But the Dragon really can't be killed by either deck. And since it doesn't come in against 4C/Deathblade, where all Moons stay, I still get access to Sol Lands to power it out. Mainly Esper and Patriot Blade, and the new faux Miracles decks popping up. Yes, 5 mana is still a lot vs DnT. But you need 5 to cast Confluence a lot of the time. And I've learned to favor mana-heavy hands against them anyway. And I've found that much like Confluence against these Blade decks, it most often actually resolves. There is too much they have to contend with in the early turns for them to sandbag counters. Against Esper, the version running 4 Snapcaster, I actually keep 3Sphere in. Which almost universally hurts them worse than me, though that's not the case against all builds. But it is another card that one way or the other facilitates late game bombs. You just have to structure the early turns more aggressively, assuming that you will have to race TNN if it lands, and play knowing Stormbreath will allow you to do so.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Can you share full list / sideboard?
Do you just board in the two Stormbreath?
What do you take out?

For what it's worth, I like Stormbreath MUCH better than Torment. :tongue:

[pinkfrosting]

Bridge isn't an answer to true-name on its own, but for me it's often been very effective at buying time to just resolve a moon which shuts off decay if they're playing BUG. If they are on grixis I make resolving chalice on 2 a priortity to shut off grudge/smash to smithereens. I have had the board state of several bridges stopping multiple true-names into an eventual moon win many times online.

As far as winning the game goes, as many others have pointed out we have a lot of great threats with "reach," chandra, quicksmith, koth ult, sin prodder's trigger, etc.. As I previously stated it is a fundamentally different deck philosophy to play 4 bridges main, your threat base is geared towards dealing damage without swinging.

Also in the 50+ games I've played with this deck since the top ban I very, very rarely have issues emptying my hand to make bridge work. Most lists play 26+ mana sources, 4 of which involve pitching a card.

[QQQ]

With the caveat that the list is obviously unfinished:

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Sin Prodder
3 Hanweir Garrison
2 Chandra's Phoenix

4 Fiery Confluence

4 Blood Moon

3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance


Still working on SB slots for a meta greatly in flux. And the 2 Phoenix are my main deck compromise for grindy decks. Still definitely in testing phase. Regent was dying to Push too often. Haste almost makes up for the small body. Chandra and Confluence get it back. Attacks through Bridge over blocks.Trades with Delver. And I really wanted flying in that slot. Copter was better. But once the meta got to the point that main deck 3Sphere was warranted, I didn't have enough Red cards for the consistency I wanted. Still might go back to 2 of those.

Boarding vs EsperBlade (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23315&iddeck=180748) would be something like:+2 Revoker,+2 Dragon/-4 Moon

And possibly one more 3Sphere, and/or Chandra if available. Possibly for a Confluence.

[Ace/Homebrew]

[List]

Still working on SB slots for a meta greatly in flux. And the 2 Phoenix are my main deck compromise for grindy decks. Still definitely in testing phase. Regent was dying to Push too often. Haste almost makes up for the small body. Chandra and Confluence get it back. Attacks through Bridge over blocks.Trades with Delver. And I really wanted flying in that slot. Copter was better. But once the meta got to the point that main deck 3Sphere was warranted, I didn't have enough Red cards for the consistency I wanted. Still might go back to 2 of those.

Boarding vs EsperBlade (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23315&iddeck=180748) would be something like:+2 Revoker,+2 Dragon/-4 Moon

And possibly one more 3Sphere, and/or Chandra if available. Possibly for a Confluence.

I've always been inclined to cut 3spheres versus control because the game inevitably gets to a point where it isn't relevant.
I'd also argue that Blood Moons are stronger than Maguses because there are less ways to remove them.
Against Blade I'd cut 3sphere's first, then 1 or 2 Maguses if I needed more room. But I fully agree with what you're bringing in.

I'd be interested to hear more about the Phoenixes. :r::r: in the casting cost isn't the worst, but I'm curious if Pia Nalaar wouldn't serve you about as well.
Pia gives you a few additional tricks against Batterskull/Jitte (sac the token after blocks) even though you only get to do it once.

Have you tried 4 Chandras main? I strongly encourage you to try that if you haven't.



Here's what I'm trying out currently. With the same caveat as you:

4 Hanweir Watchkeep
3 Qal Sisma Behemoth
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Bonfire of the Damned (although I'm thinking Rolling Earthquake is probably better)
4 Fiery Confluence

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Chrome Mox
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

My sideboard would contain 4 Trinisphere and the rest I'm still working out.
The idea is to keep the opponent's board clear with Confluence and Bonfire/Earthquake and make my threats difficult to kill through conventional burn (bolt or P Fire) which is playable through Moon.

[QQQ]

I've always been inclined to cut 3spheres versus control because the game inevitably gets to a point where it isn't relevant.

Historically I agree. However Snapcaster is effectively neutered by 3Sphere. Without bringing in GY hate. That, in addition to it's blowout potential and protection against countermagic(as always) is why I like only against the 4 Snap matchups with decks that are optimized to abuse him.


I'd also argue that Blood Moons are stronger than Maguses because there are less ways to remove them.

Obviously that's true. But Moon can be pretty weak in general against this deck. And they don't have real blockers, so every threat is relevant. Magus also turns off all their removal. Yes, they can float and kill. But they can do the same vs Moon. The odds that they have open mana and the removal spell are far higher for Magus. But to me that's outweighed by the threat itself, and additional threats for each other Magus where redundant Moons are dead.


I'd be interested to hear more about the Phoenixes. :r::r: in the casting cost isn't the worst, but I'm curious if Pia Nalaar wouldn't serve you about as well.
Pia gives you a few additional tricks against Batterskull/Jitte (sac the token after blocks) even though you only get to do it once.

I don't have much more at the moment on Phoenix. It's my substitute for Copter. Which I see you can fit without 3Sphere hurting your Red. Not being able to cast Mox T1 is absolutely crippling, which led to the change. Otherwise, with the 6 token producers I was very happy with 2 Copter. I will say that I have been sorely disappointed in Pia every time drew and/or cast them. To me it's the most overrated card in the deck just above Prodder.


Have you tried 4 Chandras main? I strongly encourage you to try that if you haven't.

Yes. Not only is Grixis Delver the most popular deck generally, it's even more so around me. And it's the one version that Chandra is just bad against. YP, TNN, Gurmag, Bolt, etc. That's the vast majority of the reason. That is actually the reason for my main inclusion of 3Sphere. Though we're not just talking Grixis there. Against Delver, every lock piece you drop in the first three turns greatly improves your chance of winning. Whether it resolves or not. If they Daze your Chalice, they're not dropping YP next turn. If they Force your Moon, they don't get to use that Brainstorm to find Bolt for your Magus. And so on. So when you start dropping real threats, they are out of answers.


Here's what I'm trying out currently. With the same caveat as you:

4 Hanweir Watchkeep
3 Qal Sisma Behemoth
3 Smuggler's Copter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Bonfire of the Damned (although I'm thinking Rolling Earthquake is probably better)
4 Fiery Confluence

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Chrome Mox
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

My sideboard would contain 4 Trinisphere and the rest I'm still working out.
The idea is to keep the opponent's board clear with Confluence and Bonfire/Earthquake and make my threats difficult to kill through conventional burn (bolt or P Fire) which is playable through Moon.

I haven't played Watchkeep. I found 3 Copter was too many with 6 token producers, and you have none. That would concern me. especially since you want to be actually swinging with all your creatures but Magus. I found the self damage from Earthquake added up too quickly with the deck's inherent self damage against the decks you want Earthquake against. But that was in limited testing. I did test Behemoth, and found that having to pay was a nuisance late, but made the card almost unplayable early. It's not bad, but it causes sort of an inconsistency in a deck that can ill-afford it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Just checking, because context (you said 'them') implies you misunderstood me. I was suggesting Pia Nalaar, not Pia and Kiran Nalaar. :wink:

In my limited experience, you are generally safe playing extra Copters because it lets you loot away redundant copies. The 'fat' creatures I'm trying were chosen specifically because Copter minimizes their downside. And they curve nicely when you open with an aggressive hand (turn 1 Copter; turn 2 Watchkeep/Behemoth, crew and swing with Copter).

I also like turn 1 Behemoth; turn 2 Chandra, add :r::r: and attack for 5 with Behemoth. :cool:

[Black_Diamond]

Hi,

I usually play R/W Taxes but I am on Dragon Stompy at the moment. I played the following list in our monthly tournament (31 Players) for a 5-1 result. I played a modified list of Wichtelmann:



/NAME:

4 Blood Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder
2 Sudden Shock
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard:

3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Karakas



Wins were: B/W Stoneblade, MUD, Eldrazi, Grixis Delver and Infect. Lost to Turbo Depths :frown:

[QQQ]

Just checking, because context (you said 'them') implies you misunderstood me. I was suggesting Pia Nalaar, not Pia and Kiran Nalaar. :wink:

In my limited experience, you are generally safe playing extra Copters because it lets you loot away redundant copies. The 'fat' creatures I'm trying were chosen specifically because Copter minimizes their downside. And they curve nicely when you open with an aggressive hand (turn 1 Copter; turn 2 Watchkeep/Behemoth, crew and swing with Copter).

I also like turn 1 Behemoth; turn 2 Chandra, add :r::r: and attack for 5 with Behemoth. :cool:

Yes. I meant Kiran. But I'm not impressed by Pia herself either.

I understand your idea. But you do realize that once your fatties aren't sick, you will be swinging with them instead of Copter? You don't run enough creatures to keep Copter going without losing an attacker. That's why I like it more with the token generators.

I did get some testing last night. I believe the changes I'll be making to the main are -2 Phoenix, -1 3 Sphere, +2 Copter, +1 Chandra. Copter is just much better, and I'm only losing one red card this way. SB I'm on now is:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrokenisis
1 Stormbreath Dragon

But that was just to put an exact 15 for last night.

[hofzge]

Hi,

I usually play R/W Taxes but I am on Dragon Stompy at the moment. I played the following list in our monthly tournament (31 Players) for a 5-1 result. I played a modified list of Wichtelmann:



/NAME:

4 Blood Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder
2 Sudden Shock
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard:

3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Karakas



Wins were: B/W Stoneblade, MUD, Eldrazi, Grixis Delver and Infect. Lost to Turbo Depths :frown:

I played a very similar deck to 3-1 at my LGS:

1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4x Magus of the Moon
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Quicksmith Rebel
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Sin Prodder

4x Fiery Confluence

4x Blood Moon

4x Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Trinisphere

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Mountain

Sideboard

3x Faerie Macabre
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Sudden Demise
2x Sudden Shock
2x Sulfur Elemental
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Tormod's Crypt

R1 against Pascal on Patriot Delver 2-1
R2 against Oliver on Food Chain 2-1
R3 against Simon on Death and Taxes 2-0
R4 against Matej on Sneak and Show 1-2

In almost all matches except against Food Chain Ensnaring Bridge was the most important card. It won against TNN and it won the game against Sneak and Show.

One consequence of always baoding out Sin Paordder would be to cut them for something more proactive like Walking Ballista or Phyrexian Revoker.

[jandax]

Does anyone else play the goblin package? Does no one respect Moggcatcher?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Does anyone else play the goblin package? Does no one respect Moggcatcher?
http://i.imgur.com/6P25UXl.jpg

Just haven't been excited by it recently. :rolleyes:
When foil copies of Combat Celebrant drop further I'll probably try it again.

[fluuu]

Does anyone else play the goblin package? Does no one respect Moggcatcher?

IS the version i love more

[pinkfrosting]

IS the version i love more

I had a lot of success with moggcatcher when the post-top meta was in its very early stages, including a 5-0, although it wasn't posted.

I ended up switching to the bridge/walker version after I started losing a lot to the various UR decks that have become increasingly popular, however I still think it's quite strong. I was also running bridge main in that deck, moggcatcher is still quite good at winning the game under bridge. I was still running 3 chandra main with a smaller goblin package to make room of 4 rabblemaster, 1 tuktuk, 1 kiki, 1 siegegang, 1 settler, 1 redcap. It's a very flexible deck and I love settler, he's the biggest thing I miss. However playing a 4 drop that's a 2/2 that needs a turn to do anything feels really bad against some decks.

EDIT:: on the subject of settler has anyone had success with stone rain effects, or even stone rain itself, in non-goblin stompy lists hostorically? The effect is insanely strong against some control decks that run 1-3 basics.

[ZEROorDIE]

I had moderate success with Avalanche rider in the mono-humans style builds a while back, but I don't know how viable that is these days.

[Zirath]

The non-matching Siege-Gang Commander gives me cancer.

My problem with Goblin version is that it is way more controlling in the games you are losing but it's still hard to end the game before they break out.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I had moderate success with Avalanche rider in the mono-humans style builds a while back, but I don't know how viable that is these days.

I'm playing a copy of Avalanche Riders in the board of my Imperial Recruiter build and it has been fun. For anyone who likes the tool box nature of the Moggcatcher builds, I suggest giving Imperial Recruiter a whirl.

I've never played Stone Rain, but I have had some success with Pillage. It hits Mox Diamond as well!

[fluuu]

I had a lot of success with moggcatcher when the post-top meta was in its very early stages, including a 5-0, although it wasn't posted.

I ended up switching to the bridge/walker version after I started losing a lot to the various UR decks that have become increasingly popular, however I still think it's quite strong. I was also running bridge main in that deck, moggcatcher is still quite good at winning the game under bridge. I was still running 3 chandra main with a smaller goblin package to make room of 4 rabblemaster, 1 tuktuk, 1 kiki, 1 siegegang, 1 settler, 1 redcap. It's a very flexible deck and I love settler, he's the biggest thing I miss. However playing a 4 drop that's a 2/2 that needs a turn to do anything feels really bad against some decks.

EDIT:: on the subject of settler has anyone had success with stone rain effects, or even stone rain itself, in non-goblin stompy lists hostorically? The effect is insanely strong against some control decks that run 1-3 basics.
The early post top ban its not so far!:tongue:
What do u think that are the strongs and weakness of goblin version compared with the standard one?

[pinkfrosting]

The early post top ban its not so far!:tongue:
What do u think that are the strongs and weakness of goblin version compared with the standard one?

The strength of the bridge/walker version is that almost every card has immediate impact the turn it comes down, almost every threat virtually ignores the battlefield and can deal damage behind bridge, and its threats are harder to remove. It's biggest weakness imo is every stomy decks weakness, which is heavy dependence on top decking well when you're behind.

The biggest strength of goblin stompy is a more varied toolbox of answers to specific threats and more virtual card advantage if a moggcatcher sticks. It's weakness is being a lot more vulnerable to creature removal. However if you run enough creatures you can overload their removal pretty easily.

There is also the no-bridge very aggro heavy builds which I can't really speak much about because I haven't tried it, but ideally I would say they forego parts of the prison plan to just kill opponents faster on the ground. I am personally not a huge fan of these builds in the current metagame because bridge is just crazy strong against every top deck right now except storm.

[nimkee]

Does anyone else play the goblin package? Does no one respect Moggcatcher?

It was my first stompy variant for awhile. Like other people said it is quite flexible. Ideally you bait out removal for moggcatcher with some other target, or have a chalice on 1 to at least activate him once. Humans and goblins have the added benefit of being able to make use of cavern. I added Purphoros after seeing a guy do well with it in Japan. Purph into SGC is gross, and even a rabblemaster or kiki (or pia and nalaar...) can be a handful with him. He turns any topdecked creature into a shock, which isn't bad.

That was all before the top-ban though, the pure power of Chandra and Confluence are hard to ignore. In non-blue decks I try to keep my deck to at least 10% CA sources. In goblins I had 4 moggcatchers, 2 Chandra, and 3 SGC / Pia and Nalaar which gave me 9 cards total. Getting catcher plowed or removed DOES feel real bad.

[QQQ]

I ended up switching to the bridge/walker version after I started losing a lot to the various UR decks that have become increasingly popular, however I still think it's quite strong.


Could you be more specific regarding UR decks?

[jandax]

Yeah does that include grixis or just Rx burn decks?

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[pinkfrosting]

Could you be more specific regarding UR decks?


Yeah does that include grixis or just Rx burn decks?

Specifically UR decks, both the aggro, tempo, and control variants.

UR delver (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/649080#paper) is weak to chalice on one but runs more than enough basics to ignore our 8 moon effects. We don't really have a lot of effective sideboard options to replace moon post board either. Post board they side in usually 3 smash to smithereens. Basically it's the same difficulty we have against burn compounded by the fact that they have a robust countermagic suite.

UR tempo (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/655637#paper) is similar except they play more 2-3 drops making it easier to play around chalice, and 4 snapcaster which post-board lets them get a lot more value out of their artifact destruction, making bridge and chalice less useful. Same problem of them running more than enough basics to virtually ignore moon.

I also saw a few experimental UR "control" lists running punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows without green cards, using it just to power punishing fire. A few others were running lists similar to responsiblejoseph's tempo list but without the tempo cards, focusing on landing blood moon, jace, and true-name, and protecting them with countermagic, burn, and snapcaster. I also saw several maindeck engineered explosives in these lists, presumably to kill chalice, which worked well against me.

Anyway back to my original point, all these decks are pretty hard for any stompy variant to deal with, but I've had the easiest time with the bridge/walker version because it's threats are better at eating red spells, at least trading for 2 of them in most cases. Moggcatcher just kept dying too easily.

@jandax, Grixis is a great matchup, I'm more than happy to play against any deck that doesn't run a single basic any day.

[QQQ]

Specifically UR decks, both the aggro, tempo, and control variants.

UR delver (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/649080#paper) is weak to chalice on one but runs more than enough basics to ignore our 8 moon effects. We don't really have a lot of effective sideboard options to replace moon post board either. Post board they side in usually 3 smash to smithereens. Basically it's the same difficulty we have against burn compounded by the fact that they have a robust countermagic suite.

So you're saying you switched to main deck Bridge, to have a better matchup against a deck that runs 4 Stormchaser, 4 Monastery Swiftspear, and some number of Grim Lavamancer?

[pinkfrosting]

So you're saying you switched to main deck Bridge, to have a better matchup against a deck that runs 4 Stormchaser, 4 Monastery Swiftspear, and some number of Grim Lavamancer?

Bridge isn't great against them. Neither are a bunch of 2/2's that don't block fliers. At least with bridge I can use chrome mox to empty my hand quickly and actually hit 0 cards somewhat consistently.

However that isn't the primary reason I switched. Walkers are just better against them than moggcatcher in many cases.

A very aggro oriented list is probably much better at racing them. I was specifically talking about moggcatcher vs bridge/walker, and moggcatcher is quite slow. I don't play a fast aggro list though because I gear my deck to beat a majority of the field, and UR is not the majority of the field. There are enough people playing it though that I don't think moggcatcher is the best choice right now, although I still think it's pretty good.

[QQQ]

Bridge isn't great against them. Neither are a bunch of 2/2's that don't block fliers. At least with bridge I can use chrome mox to empty my hand quickly and actually hit 0 cards somewhat consistently.

However that isn't the primary reason I switched. Walkers are just better against them than moggcatcher in many cases.

A very aggro oriented list is probably much better at racing them. I was specifically talking about moggcatcher vs bridge/walker, and moggcatcher is quite slow. I don't play a fast aggro list though because I gear my deck to beat a majority of the field, and UR is not the majority of the field. There are enough people playing it though that I don't think moggcatcher is the best choice right now, although I still think it's pretty good.

That makes sense. So on that note; from what I've seen with the latest lists online, I don't imagine the Bridge version could possibly have a fast enough clock against the AnT decks running 2 Hurkyls and 2 By Force to kill them before they find some answer. The results I've seen support this, but I've not played that version against Storm. What is your experience without aggressive creature elements in this matchup?

[Koby]

Specifically UR decks, both the aggro, tempo, and control variants.

UR delver (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/649080#paper) is weak to chalice on one but runs more than enough basics to ignore our 8 moon effects. We don't really have a lot of effective sideboard options to replace moon post board either. Post board they side in usually 3 smash to smithereens. Basically it's the same difficulty we have against burn compounded by the fact that they have a robust countermagic suite.

UR tempo (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/655637#paper) is similar except they play more 2-3 drops making it easier to play around chalice, and 4 snapcaster which post-board lets them get a lot more value out of their artifact destruction, making bridge and chalice less useful. Same problem of them running more than enough basics to virtually ignore moon.

I also saw a few experimental UR "control" lists running punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows without green cards, using it just to power punishing fire. A few others were running lists similar to responsiblejoseph's tempo list but without the tempo cards, focusing on landing blood moon, jace, and true-name, and protecting them with countermagic, burn, and snapcaster. I also saw several maindeck engineered explosives in these lists, presumably to kill chalice, which worked well against me.

Anyway back to my original point, all these decks are pretty hard for any stompy variant to deal with, but I've had the easiest time with the bridge/walker version because it's threats are better at eating red spells, at least trading for 2 of them in most cases. Moggcatcher just kept dying too easily.

@jandax, Grixis is a great matchup, I'm more than happy to play against any deck that doesn't run a single basic any day.

For UR Burn and UR Tempo, Trinisphere is great for slowing down their deployment. In fact, R/x Burn is always impaired by Trinisphere. In my tournament history, I've rarely (less than 5) lost to Burn playing Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere together.

[pinkfrosting]

That makes sense. So on that note; from what I've seen with the latest lists online, I don't imagine the Bridge version could possibly have a fast enough clock against the AnT decks running 2 Hurkyls and 2 By Force to kill them before they find some answer. The results I've seen support this, but I've not played that version against Storm. What is your experience without aggressive creature elements in this matchup?

I don't see Hurkyls as much as I see the most common board of 3 by force 2 echoing truth, which is still really hard to deal with. I obviously cut bridges and the slowest threats, which is usually chandra. Honestly against storm a lot of the other threats in that list are quite fast. Koth is about as fast as most beaters, and quicksmith deals 5 per turn against storm. I don't cut Fiery Confluence as it's actually a great burn spell and can sometimes kill LEDs or petals they were forced to cast because of trinisphere. Between all those cards and sin prodder the clock isn't that bad at all. I also run leyline of the void, which can be a nice lock piece that doesn't get hit by By Force or hurkyll's. I do miss turn 1 rabblemaster against storm though, that was a nice element to moggcatcher.

When I'm on MTGO though pretty much 4 out of 5 decks every league are some variation of grixis, 4-c control, or BUG. Our deck isn't reactionary, it just slams cards and expects the opponent to lose to them, so every card choice should be geared towards the meta. That's the logic in the current bridge builds. Storm is still popular enough that I'm playing against 1-2 of them per league, but the decks still operates just fine against them, and only loses a few percentage points to having a slightly slower clock, but as I said it's really not that much slower.

[jandax]

How does the bridge walker build react to a gaddock teeg? Sign the slip and skedaddle?

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[jandax]

I don't see Hurkyls as much as I see the most common board of 3 by force 2 echoing truth, which is still really hard to deal with. I obviously cut bridges and the slowest threats, which is usually chandra. Honestly against storm a lot of the other threats in that list are quite fast. Koth is about as fast as most beaters, and quicksmith deals 5 per turn against storm. I don't cut Fiery Confluence as it's actually a great burn spell and can sometimes kill LEDs or petals they were forced to cast because of trinisphere. Between all those cards and sin prodder the clock isn't that bad at all. I also run leyline of the void, which can be a nice lock piece that doesn't get hit by By Force or hurkyll's. I do miss turn 1 rabblemaster against storm though, that was a nice element to moggcatcher.

When I'm on MTGO though pretty much 4 out of 5 decks every league are some variation of grixis, 4-c control, or BUG. Our deck isn't reactionary, it just slams cards and expects the opponent to lose to them, so every card choice should be geared towards the meta. That's the logic in the current bridge builds. Storm is still popular enough that I'm playing against 1-2 of them per league, but the decks still operates just fine against them, and only loses a few percentage points to having a slightly slower clock, but as I said it's really not that much slower.
Sorry, how does leyline get hit by force or recall?

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[QQQ]

Sorry, how does leyline get hit by force or recall?

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It doesn't. But then it's not a lock piece either. There's no way Storm will go for a PiF kill against this deck.

[pinkfrosting]

How does the bridge walker build react to a gaddock teeg? Sign the slip and skedaddle?

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Preboard quicksmith rebel, post board sudden shock and kozilek's return, or sulfur elemental if they swing into it and you have the mana to flash it in.

[pinkfrosting]

Sorry, how does leyline get hit by force or recall?

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you misread my post, I said it doesn't get hit


It doesn't. But then it's not a lock piece either. There's no way Storm will go for a PiF kill against this deck.

And it isn't a lock but it's a big hindrance, taking away PIF as an option and depowering cabal ritual does in fact slow them down. And if leyline isn't down they absolutely will go for it, they don't take pif out against us

[jandax]

Fair enough. Mistakes are always made.

I'll say it after Koby, 3ball is a big old thorn in the side of grixis decks. I'm convinced that we should be playing 3 MD, no matter the build. The meta is still shook.

It's good to play hate.dec right meow.

[pinkfrosting]

Fair enough. Mistakes are always made.

I'll say it after Koby, 3ball is a big old thorn in the side of grixis decks. I'm convinced that we should be playing 3 MD, no matter the build. The meta is still shook.

It's good to play hate.dec right meow.

Absolutely agree on 3-sphere, I run 3 main. Against a lot of decks I'll take it out when I'm on the draw but I think it's great right now, and I agree with Koby that along with chalice it's our best tool against UR burn/tempo. Against decks that straight up fold to moon I also like the turn 1-2 3-sphere, if it resolves they can't counter moon on our next turn, if not it eats some countermagic so we can resolve moon anyway.

[Scott]

Two Dragon Stompy decks in today's published 5-0 MTGO decks (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-27)

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Two Dragon Stompy decks in today's published 5-0 MTGO decks (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-27)

Both playing this deck:

Planeswalker (5)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

Creature (14)
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder

Sorcery (4)
4 Fiery Confluence

Artifact (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere

Enchantment (4)
4 Blood Moon

Land (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Trinisphere
1 Ashen Rider
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
4 Sulfur Elemental
3 Volcanic Fallout

[Wichtelman]

i think leyline and koth are crap cuz of various reasons but thats just me...

fallout might have suprised a lot delver/deathrite players...

[jandax]

Yeah honestly this list looks janky. I'm one to talk, but unless you're running a tutor package, one of's do not cut it in this archetype. It wins on the back of hate for sure. I'd like to see someone run this through a paper local

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[Wichtelman]

well one of's are ok but they need to have a good impact and stuff like koth is just good if you are already ahead...
that said one ashen rider to lucksack vs show and tell?

reanimator can play around leyline specially if you keep a weak hand just cuz of leyline + it is just good if your opp gets suprised by it...

[pinkfrosting]

Both have the same maindeck as my list from yesterday's results (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/656311#paper) with a slightly different sideboard, which is the same maindeck that top 8'd the legacy challenge (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/652755#paper) last week.

Leyline is not great but it is a concession to BR reanimator, which just grabs your chalices and trinispheres out of your hand if they're on the play. It is really amazing if you can resolve it with either a chalice or a trinisphere though, making it difficult for them to dig for their enchantment destruction. It has actually performed very well for me, but perhaps I'm just lucky. I've had it since I started playing moggcatcher after the top ban and I've played over 100 games online since then with plenty of wins against reanimator. It can also be sided in against storm, and while not backbreaking it's better than a lot of cards in the maindeck that do nothing against storm so it can be a nice hindrance to them if you happen to get it out.

Koth is basically in the deck because planeswalkers dodge almost all removal and they synergize very well with bridge and he's the next best red planeswalker behind Chandra, TOD. Very few people are playing council's judgement or maelstrom pulse anymore making them some of the hardest threats to remove with spells.

[Wichtelman]

Leyline is not great but it is a concession to BR reanimator, which just grabs your chalices and trinispheres out of your hand if they're on the play. It is really amazing if you can resolve it with either a chalice or a trinisphere though, making it difficult for them to dig for their enchantment destruction. It can also be sided in against storm, and while not backbreaking it's better than a lot of cards in the maindeck that do nothing against storm so it can be a nice hindrance to them if you happen to get it out.

personal choice nothing more... played the matchups on both sides and have a different opinion i gues...


Koth is basically in the deck because planeswalkers dodge almost all removal and they synergize very well with bridge and he's the next best red planeswalker behind Chandra, TOD. Very few people are playing council's judgement or maelstrom pulse anymore making them some of the hardest threats to remove with spells.

i really get the "why" but i think it is just miserable if you have 1-2 mountain and they kill them... same story if they have pressure... if you have the lock online it really does not matter how you win...

[Koby]

I think Leyline is worse than Relic, Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre combined. I've been using 3 Macabre and 2 Relic; where relic has value against DRS/Goyf decks.

[Valleysdai]

i really get the "why" but i think it is just miserable if you have 1-2 mountain and they kill them... same story if they have pressure... if you have the lock online it really does not matter how you win...

I have recently removed koth from my list and my friend was saying that he is amazing when behind a bridge.

But what I was told and then realised is that when behind he does nothing. His + doesn't even give the mountain haste, his - is rather pitiful unless a blood moon effect is out. His ultimate is absolutely incredible, but it's got the same issues as the -.

[pinkfrosting]

I think Leyline is worse than Relic, Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre combined. I've been using 3 Macabre and 2 Relic; where relic has value against DRS/Goyf decks.

It's really a reaction to BR reanimator's popularity over traditional reanimator. An uncounterable effect that lands turn 0 is immune to thoughtseize and unmask, which hit faerie macabre easily. If traditional reanimator comes back in force I would switch to different grave hate.

I could never justify running relic in a deck with chalice, especially in matchup where our turn one play should always be chalice on 1 if possible.

[Koby]

It's really a reaction to BR reanimator's popularity over traditional reanimator. An uncounterable effect that lands turn 0 is immune to thoughtseize and unmask, which hit faerie macabre easily. If traditional reanimator comes back in force I would switch to different grave hate.

I could never justify running relic in a deck with chalice, especially in matchup where our turn one play should always be chalice on 1 if possible.

So what are you doing the other 60% of the time when you don't fan open a Chalice of the Void?

[pinkfrosting]

So what are you doing the other 60% of the time when you don't fan open a Chalice of the Void?

Trinisphere, Leyline, Chalice, are all good, I can usually mulligan to one or more of these cards effectively. I have a decent record against BR with this strategy. Bridge is also very strong against every threat except griselbrand.

What are you doing when you land turn 1 relic, pass with no mana to activate, and they go ritual unmask/thoughtseize entomb reanimate? Because even with tomb you can't keep the mana in your pool, you'd need at meast mountain relic chrome mox/guide on your opener to stop their turn 1 play

[jandax]

Is chalice good against Br reanimator? I've played against the deck one time in the last 3 tournaments (13 rounds total) and see it's usefulness. However I'd be hard pressed go say that mulling to chalice is a decent line of play. Anyone with exp in this match?

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[Wichtelman]

It's really a reaction to BR reanimator's popularity over traditional reanimator. An uncounterable effect that lands turn 0 is immune to thoughtseize and unmask, which hit faerie macabre easily. If traditional reanimator comes back in force I would switch to different grave hate.

I could never justify running relic in a deck with chalice, especially in matchup where our turn one play should always be chalice on 1 if possible.

if you use that logic what do you think about discard your creatures and reanimate them and 4x reverent silence or 4x wear/tear + hardcast creatures out of the reanimator sb...
(you might kp a hand without pressure or lands just cuz of leyline)

if they have thoughtsize or unmask for faerie or something similiar = they can not discard their creatures with it = more time to get a trini or chalice or bridge into play...


Is chalice good against Br reanimator? I've played against the deck one time in the last 3 tournaments (13 rounds total) and see it's usefulness. However I'd be hard pressed go say that mulling to chalice is a decent line of play. Anyone with exp in this match?

how do you mull with your deck?


Bridge is also very strong against every threat except griselbrand.

add tidespout tyrant and ashen riders to that list...

that is not directly pointed at you but guys dont confuse good/bad reanimator draws or players with whats actually good - great - bad vs them...

[jandax]

I try not to mull aggressively. Old habits die hard, I presume. I just don't have enough experience in the match to decide what's the good line of play. I am fully aware of what that deck does, And in the end I think I could make good sideboard decisions

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[hofzge]

i think leyline and koth are crap cuz of various reasons but thats just me...

Instead of the Leyline I would rather play sme Faerie Macabres and a Tormod's Crypt. As for Koth since Mircles is no longer around he is just getting killed. Sure his Ultimate wins the game, but you never get there if you just play him. I agree there are better threats behind a bridge.

[pinkfrosting]

if you use that logic what do you think about discard your creatures and reanimate them and 4x reverent silence or 4x wear/tear + hardcast creatures out of the reanimator sb...
(you might kp a hand without pressure or lands just cuz of leyline)

if they have thoughtsize or unmask for faerie or something similiar = they can not discard their creatures with it = more time to get a trini or chalice or bridge into play...

add tidespout tyrant and ashen riders to that list.

Yeah I should've been more specific with bridge in that it's really stronger when supported by other cards that make it more difficult to deal with.

If I ran more hate for this match up on top of leyline it would be macabre, out of all the thoughtseize-able hate it's the best, ignores chancellor, playable on their first turn. It is a very strong card. I only devote 4 slots to this matchup specifically though and I chose leyline because it fits all the same criteria without being vulnerable to their discard. If I was facing this deck more I'd run 4x leyline 3x macabre.

Their deck is designed to either go off turn 1 or use chancellor to time walk the opponent and go off turn 2 while stripping any reactive hate. We have to use equally unfair hate to combat this. I consider leyline the strongest card, followed by macabre, followed by crypt as it can be cast off a mountain turn 1 through chancellor (played painter for 3 years and ran crypt as that deck can't support leyline for various reasons)

On Koth, he's the most recent addition to my deck. He has actually won two games for me, but that is a meaningless sample size. I need to test him more for sure. I have a soft spot for that card after running it in painter SB for years so I'm probably biased.

[jandax]

Funny how many painters have picked this deck up. I just wish I could play chalice and grindstone in the same deck 😐

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[Wichtelman]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/659904#paper

got the updated list to a 5-0

[jandax]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/659904#paper

got the updated list to a 5-0
Dat Icy...😎https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170530/907f1ce67c1c238a3e4bd3e3556e1954.jpg

[Wichtelman]

Dat Icy... :cool:

just watch your opps face if you play paper magic... :cool:

[jandax]

Indeed, well worth the clunkiness

[pinkfrosting]

Dragon stompy took third at Hareruya mtg paper swiss today.

11x mountain
4x tomb
4x city

4x magus
4x rabblemaster
3x hazoret
4x simian
1x quicksmith

4x confluence
4x chalice
4x chrome mox
4x bridge
4x chandra, tod
1x koth

Sb

4x leyline of the void
3x sulfur elemental
3x volcanic fallout
2x quicksmith
2x jokulhaups
1x slice and dice

Standouts to me are the 21 lands, no trinispheres, and some interesting choices of red board wipes in the sideboard

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Dragon stompy took third at Hareruya mtg paper swiss today.

11x mountain
4x tomb
4x city

4x magus
4x rabblemaster
3x hazoret
4x simian
1x quicksmith

4x confluence
4x chalice
4x chrome mox
4x bridge
4x chandra, tod
1x koth

Sb

4x leyline of the void
3x sulfur elemental
3x volcanic fallout
2x quicksmith
2x jokulhaups
1x slice and dice

Standouts to me are the 21 lands, no trinispheres, and some interesting choices of red board wipes in the sideboard

Koth, Hazoret and Quicksmith Rebel were also played in this decklist that went 5-0 twice the other week.

Planeswalker (5)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

Creature (14)
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder

Sorcery (4)
4 Fiery Confluence

Artifact (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere

Enchantment (4)
4 Blood Moon

Land (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Trinisphere
1 Ashen Rider
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
4 Sulfur Elemental
3 Volcanic Fallout

[nimkee]

Koth, Hazoret and Quicksmith Rebel were also played in this decklist that went 5-0 twice the other week.

Planeswalker (5)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

Creature (14)
1 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder

Sorcery (4)
4 Fiery Confluence

Artifact (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere

Enchantment (4)
4 Blood Moon

Land (18)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 Trinisphere
1 Ashen Rider
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
4 Sulfur Elemental
3 Volcanic Fallout
A list placed 2nd or 1st I believe in the Quest for Power tourney today. I missed the last round on stream. I saw it in the semis though, beating down with dragons and magma jets.

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[Koby]

Dragon stompy (with proper Dragons) won the Fire and Dice Legacy event. It had 6 rounds; beating Burn in the Semi's and Grixis Delver in the finals.

[nimkee]

EDIT: I am an idiot. Fire and Dice...not fire and ice haha. Sorry.

Thanks for the correction - I don't know how I ended up watching that as I thought I had clicked on the Quest for Power link. Odd.

Was this on twitch? I can't figure out where I saw this. I was taking quick peaks while I was commuting this morning.


Dragon stompy (with proper Dragons) won the Fire and Dice Legacy event. It had 6 rounds; beating Burn in the Semi's and Grixis Delver in the finals.

[pocari79]

I'm curious as to why there's 3-4 Sulfur Elementals in the sideboards recently. Is the D&T matchup that bad that you'd need Sulfur Elementals? It seems to me that cards like Fiery Confluence and Volcanic Fallout or even Sudden Shock is enough to deal with D&T. Am I missing on some other use of Sulfur Elementals?

[H]

Thanks for the correction - I don't know how I ended up watching that as I thought I had clicked on the Quest for Power link. Odd.

Was this on twitch? I can't figure out where I saw this. I was taking quick peaks while I was commuting this morning.

The Snapcaster's stream was hosting the Fire and Dice stream after the top 4 of the Quest for Power tournament.

[ZTurgeon]

I'm curious as to why there's 3-4 Sulfur Elementals in the sideboards recently. Is the D&T matchup that bad that you'd need Sulfur Elementals? It seems to me that cards like Fiery Confluence and Volcanic Fallout or even Sudden Shock is enough to deal with D&T. Am I missing on some other use of Sulfur Elementals?

Well, they do come in against super counterspell heavy matchups, or just matchups where anything is better than the worst lockpeice (Moon vs Burn for example) but mostly they are there for D&T. The other cards are all good vs D&T but even with all of them and Sulfur Elementals, the matchup is still pretty bad.

Everything they do is a hassle. Their curve is spread so turn 1 chalice is only ok. They have Vial to get around chalice and moon if they get it down early. They have tons of basics to beat moon. They have mana disruption to stop big mana plays. They have stoneforge with maindeck SoFaI. Mom is a problem. They have evasive threats and tons of first strike.

It's just a never ending series of things that are hard to beat.

[pinkfrosting]

Well, they do come in against super counterspell heavy matchups, or just matchups where anything is better than the worst lockpeice (Moon vs Burn for example) but mostly they are there for D&T. The other cards are all good vs D&T but even with all of them and Sulfur Elementals, the matchup is still pretty bad.

Everything they do is a hassle. Their curve is spread so turn 1 chalice is only ok. They have Vial to get around chalice and moon if they get it down early. They have tons of basics to beat moon. They have mana disruption to stop big mana plays. They have stoneforge with maindeck SoFaI. Mom is a problem. They have evasive threats and tons of first strike.

It's just a never ending series of things that are hard to beat.

I feel like between confluence, bridge, moon to turn off mana denial, and sideboard cards we have a lot of answers, but they have to come at just the right time. If they equip a sofai and we don't have a confluence that turn we just lose, or if they get mom thalia down early with ports up and we don't have moon + sudden shock we lose. They are a lot more proactive and we have to play the control role without any good selection, we just have to hope to have the answers.

One plus is they don't have countermagic, so our heavy hitters like confluence are really, really good. I wonder if playing something like jakulhaups like that one list from hareruya is correct.

Bridge in multiples is also insanely good. I've locked them out for 10+ turns while I dig for answers.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I'm glad to see some discussion about the Death and Taxes match-up. What are people boarding out against this deck?

[Kanti]

MoM+Thalia seems like it can be answered by the super narrow, but DnT smashing, Sulfur Elemental. Casting cost of 2R makes it pretty perfect for this deck as well.

[Koby]

I'm glad to see some discussion about the Death and Taxes match-up. What are people boarding out against this deck?

I board out Chalice, Trinisphere, Koth, and a few Blood Moon for:
Pyrokinesis, Sulfur Elemental, Ratchet Bombs. Basically the stack based control for removal spells. Maindeck Aensnaring Bridge is nice, but you need something to kill their taxing effects. Some meta games call for Anarchy (vs Enchantress for example). Ratchet Bomb helps clean up Moms and Vials.

[Valleysdai]

Went 2-2 at an fnm, both wins were against BR reanimator and the losses to nic fit and topless miracles.

With my losses it was just several bad top decks in a row that gave the opponent the room to win.

In both BR matches I suffered from bad draws but they did as well (one game I won while drawing 3 of my blood moons in turns 2-4 while the other was in hand).

Against BR reanimator blood moon is surprisingly useful at slowing them down.

Would you say that the bad drawing was just one of those days?

[jandax]

Absolutely, we're a mono red deck. Them's the beats, sometimes. I personally like anarchy and ratchet bomb and a couple damage sweepers, namely sudden Demise and a 4th confluence. That could be anything else honestly but it's just what I have in my current board. I'll be taking out some number of moons, chalice on the draw-3ball on the play.

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[fluuu]

Absolutely, we're a mono red deck. Them's the beats, sometimes. I personally like anarchy and ratchet bomb and a couple damage sweepers, namely sudden Demise and a 4th confluence. That could be anything else honestly but it's just what I have in my current board. I'll be taking out some number of moons, chalice on the draw-3ball on the play.

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I think the goblin prison list is funnier tthan the standard one, thoughtS?

[jandax]

Yeah my preference is gobbos. We can't really go wider to win so we have to out prison them and go over the top with burn or hard locking them out of the game. Chandra and moggcatcher will be our wincons and i do think chalice is still good md because it neuters swords which will be the best answer they have to our creatures. We basically need to shave our hate cards from the main to more adept removal from the side and play for the long game. Bridge will hold them back, moons and hate will thwart their own taxing strategy while we sculpt a board state that'll either let us ult Chandra ftw or fling enough gobbos at their head via sgc or just kiki-settler them back to turn 0. It'll come mostly down to skill, as luck is the ever present variable.

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[fluuu]

Yeah my preference is gobbos. We can't really go wider to win so we have to out prison them and go over the top with burn or hard locking them out of the game. Chandra and moggcatcher will be our wincons and i do think chalice is still good md because it neuters swords which will be the best answer they have to our creatures. We basically need to shave our hate cards from the main to more adept removal from the side and play for the long game. Bridge will hold them back, moons and hate will thwart their own taxing strategy while we sculpt a board state that'll either let us ult Chandra ftw or fling enough gobbos at their head via sgc or just kiki-settler them back to turn 0. It'll come mostly down to skill, as luck is the ever present variable.

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What is ur list?

[jandax]

Posted several pages back

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[Karhumies]

Card options vs D&T:
- Jitte is a blowout. If we get counters on to a Jitte (watch out for StoP, active Mother of Runes and vial in Mirran Crusader or Flickerwisp), the game is typically over unless they vial in or play Revoker naming Jitte or use Council's Judgment on Jitte. 1-1 split md-sb is my recommendation into a D&T heavy meta. Jitte counters can deal with Mother of Runes, Mirran Crusader and anyone they would like to equip with something nasty. Batterskull and StoP are amongst their other "outs".
- Ensnaring Bridge + Chandra / Sin Prodder / Quicksmith Rebel can be a blowout. At least until they resolve Council's Judgment on Bridge and/or Revoker on Chandra. Q.Rebel is a personal favorite of mine in this MU.
- Smuggler's Copter, excellent vs. Prot Red guys. Also carries Jitte like a champ.
- Thunderbreak Regent, great blocker and attacker unless they get Mirran Crusader, SoFI or flier + Batterskull/Jitte
- Hazoret the Fervent, always a great blocker unless they have Mirran Crusader, SoFI or flyers
- Revoker naming Stoneforge Mystic (to keep them off Batterskull and/or SoFI) or Mother of Runes
- Meltdown (be careful of your own Revoker, bad vs Batterskull)
- Shattering Spree (Replicate copies are not cast, so they resolve under Chalice)
- Sudden Shock vs Mother of Runes
- Slice and Dice, cycling
- Volcanic Fallout
- Rolling Earthquake
- Sudden Demise (not as good as Slice and Dice, Volcanic Fallout or Rolling Earthquake since their Revoker lives)
- Sulfur Elemental (not always as good as Slice and Dice, Volcanic Fallout or Rolling Earthquake since their Revoker lives)
- Our Batterskull, especially if we get to equip it on to a colorless guy.

What nasty stuff competent D&T players have in store for us:
- Batterskull
- Jitte
- MD SoFI which completely destroys us
- MD Mirran Crusader
- Sanctum Prelate @ 4 to shut down Confluence and Chandra
- MD Revoker naming Chandra
- MD Council's Judgment vs MD Bridge
- SB Seal of Cleansing vs Bridge
- SB Absolute Law which completely destroys us

D&T configuration running MD SoFI + SB Absolute Law is the hardest build for us to deal with. If you ever encounter a list without either in the 75, consider yourself lucky. Additionally, if the opponent is competent enough to choose 4 into Sanctum Prelate, we can be in deep trouble.

MD Jitte, MD Revoker, MD Quicksmith Rebel + SB artifact/creature mass wipes is how we can win this MU. For our win condition, we can either hide behind a Bridge (Chandra, Sin Prodder, Quicksmith Rebel) or dominate the airspace with Dragons and/or Smuggler's Copter -> Finish with Fiery Confluence or 2 into their face. Colorless guys with 3+ toughness can be super useful vs. prot red.

The MU win percentage has more to do with the D&T player's chosen 75 and their knowledge of our deck list in order to choose correctly for their Revoker, Prelate, Rishadan Port and Judgment. Assuming decent 75 + competent pilot, D&T has the advantage. But as long as we can keep their life gain and prot red in check, we are in the fight for the win. Sin Prodder triggers can really stack up in a grindy game and Prodder is not shut down by Revoker or Prelate @ 4.

[Valleysdai]

Has anyone tried avaricious dragon or curse of chaos to get some card filtering?

[Princessforfun]

Has anyone tried avaricious dragon or curse of chaos to get some card filtering?

I have been tweaking this for a couple of months now, but haven't posted it here. The deck has around a 70% win rate and takes a tremendous amount of practice with mulliganing, but once you understand the mechanics it is very rewarding and fun to play

LANDS:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountains

CREATURES:

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Avaricious Dragon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

OTHER SPELLS:

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

SIDEBOARD:

2 Fiery Confluence
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sun Droplet
4 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

As always the board is a work in progress, but the main deck is as good as it has ever been.

[shadowgripper]

@Princessforfun

What decisions do you typically make when choosing between taking a mulligan or keeping? Are you basically looking for a fast Chalice/Moon-effect? Mox diamond seems a bit scary with only 17 lands.

[Princessforfun]

@shadowgripper

The deck has 21 lands and yes. Acceleration + pay off of two locks or lock + threat is what you are looking for. Especially in g2/3. You just have to be disciplined and remember that bridge gets better when mulling.

[jandax]

Interesting point to take away: bridge and Mulligans work together

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[Princessforfun]

Interesting point to take away: bridge and Mulligans work together

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Sarcasm? Lol

[jandax]

Yeah a lil. Bridge doesn't need a Mulligan to get better😛

Could be down to play style but aggressively short handing oneself while giving into variance doesn't seem like the best of strategeries for mono red

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[Princessforfun]

Yeah a lil. Bridge doesn't need a Mulligan to get better😛

Could be down to play style but aggressively short handing oneself while giving into variance doesn't seem like the best of strategeries for mono red

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I didn't mean intentionally mulling. This deck doesn't have a problem dumping it's hand, but some people are a little more shy about mulling and end up losing games. Bridge is a card that even if you have to mull to three in G1 you are still going to be in ok shape. That was the point.

[non-inflammable]

Princess, I like your list but I'd want some number of crucible of worlds to recur lands for smokestack...

[jandax]

I didn't mean intentionally mulling. This deck doesn't have a problem dumping it's hand, but some people are a little more shy about mulling and end up losing games. Bridge is a card that even if you have to mull to three in G1 you are still going to be in ok shape. That was the point.
I got ya. Only experience can teach the discipline needed to best guide decision making regarding keepable hands. I agree with your logic that we keep hands with accel+lock-or-threat, all the while playing towards some kind of end game. As long time painter, I've kept my share of one landers but had to drop that habit with this deck as an example

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[Princessforfun]

Princess, I like your list but I'd want some number of crucible of worlds to recur lands for smokestack...

I tried 1-3 of them and even with wasteland. It's honestly not necessary with Rabblemaster and the card draw from Avaricious Dragon/Chandra. The deck only plays permenants so I usually am far ahead in that regard and am playing between two and three a turn with the aforementioned cards. Any number of rabblemaster with a bridge out provides a huge outlet for token generation. Crucible was consistently a bummer to draw and the opponent always fetches basics after they see blood moon decreasing the value of wasteland dramatically in g2/3. Overall the power level just wasn't there in this set up.

I am thinking about possibly adding Trash for Treasure in the board. The Jitte is from an older list and probably doesn't belong in there either.

[Princessforfun]

I got ya. Only experience can teach the discipline needed to best guide decision making regarding keepable hands. I agree with your logic that we keep hands with accel+lock-or-threat, all the while playing towards some kind of end game. As long time painter, I've kept my share of one landers but had to drop that habit with this deck as an example

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I used to do the same with one landers and quit too, lol. I also never look at my top card after choosing to mulligan. I also consider Smokestack to be a threat and not a lock piece just incase there was any question about it.

I also agree that practice is the only way to get comfortable with a new setup. This one has a lot of complecated lines in the first three turns like most legacy decks. By turn seven you are usually either dead or on easy mode. Plus, as usual, no shuffling constantly.
:cool::cool::cool:

[pinkfrosting]

If anyone is looking for an answer to unexpected miracles/grixis control/ux control/ur delver, I've been running 3 copies of boil in the sideboard and it can absolutely blow them out. Also better than moon effects against sneak and show, although it's pretty narrow in that matchup, then again so is moon and we don't have much to side in against them anyway. It's often just good in matchups were magus isn't great so it's an easy swap. This was common tech against miracles pre-top ban but from testing it's often equally good against the newer control decks that run 5+ basics.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I also never look at my top card after choosing to mulligan.
:eyebrow:

How do you rationalize this?

[ZTurgeon]

:eyebrow:

How do you rationalize this?

You shouldn't look at the top card(s).

If you mulligan a land heavy hand, then look at the top 5 cards and see you would have hit 5 running spells, should you have kept it?

If you mulligan the same land heavy hand, and then peek at the top 5 only to see 5 more lands, should you have kept it?

Of course you should have mulliganed. Your top cards make no difference because they are completely random.

Looking only makes you keep a 6 land hand because you saw the top few cards a couple times, and they were always spells, and you get it in your head that it's ok to keep that hand because you fooled yourself into being certain of the uncertain.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Thanks! I misunderstood.

I thought Pff was opting not to scry after deciding to keep a hand.
My bad!

[Koby]

You shouldn't look at the top card(s).

If you mulligan a land heavy hand, then look at the top 5 cards and see you would have hit 5 running spells, should you have kept it?

If you mulligan the same land heavy hand, and then peek at the top 5 only to see 5 more lands, should you have kept it?

Of course you should have mulliganed. Your top cards make no difference because they are completely random.

Looking only makes you keep a 6 land hand because you saw the top few cards a couple times, and they were always spells, and you get it in your head that it's ok to keep that hand because you fooled yourself into being certain of the uncertain.

You should always look at the top card when you mulligan. You shouldn't base your future decisions on it. There's clear cut example as to why you should: Vancouver Mulligan / scry.

[non-inflammable]

I tried 1-3 of them and even with wasteland. It's honestly not necessary with Rabblemaster and the card draw from Avaricious Dragon/Chandra. The deck only plays permenants so I usually am far ahead in that regard and am playing between two and three a turn with the aforementioned cards. Any number of rabblemaster with a bridge out provides a huge outlet for token generation. Crucible was consistently a bummer to draw and the opponent always fetches basics after they see blood moon decreasing the value of wasteland dramatically in g2/3. Overall the power level just wasn't there in this set up.

that's really solid reasoning. i'm gonna have to make your list exactly as is and play it. thanx...

[Princessforfun]

You shouldn't look at the top card(s).

If you mulligan a land heavy hand, then look at the top 5 cards and see you would have hit 5 running spells, should you have kept it?

If you mulligan the same land heavy hand, and then peek at the top 5 only to see 5 more lands, should you have kept it?

Of course you should have mulliganed. Your top cards make no difference because they are completely random.

Looking only makes you keep a 6 land hand because you saw the top few cards a couple times, and they were always spells, and you get it in your head that it's ok to keep that hand because you fooled yourself into being certain of the uncertain.

I don't think I could have said it better. You always take your scry. I mean it's free...

I'm also not trying to start a shit storm after a few misunderstandings.

[Princessforfun]

that's really solid reasoning. i'm gonna have to make your list exactly as is and play it. thanx...

Someone suggested siege-gang commander and it think that is worth trying for sure. If you do play this list out I would be really happy to hear how you felt about it.

[shadowgripper]

Someone suggested siege-gang commander and it think that is worth trying for sure. If you do play this list out I would be really happy to hear how you felt about it.

I played your list tonight with a different sideboard. The main-deck I swapped 1 mountain for 1 gemstone caverns, and I cut another mountain to make it 60 cards MB. The sideboard i ran 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Fiery Confluence, 1 Volcanic Fallout, 2 Pithing Needle, 4 Trinisphere, 1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar, 1 Quicksmith Rebel, 2 Boil. I went 3-1 beating Jund, Eldrazi, Storm and losing to Elves.

For the future, I'll likely try this sideboard:

4 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Stranglehold

The Stranglehold will help against Elves, disabling their ability to search for rec sag. It's probably also good in other matches, as it completely turns of fetchlands if they aren't mountains. Confusion in the Ranks is for Show N Tell.

Also, curiously, this deck just won a fairly large Modern event. It's very similar to the legacy version of the deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/668641

[Wichtelman]

The Stranglehold will help against Elves, disabling their ability to search for rec sag. It's probably also good in other matches, as it completely turns of fetchlands if they aren't mountains.

if thats your concern play cage or more mass removal... strangehold is just ok t1-2 and after that most of the time dead...

[shadowgripper]

if thats your concern play cage or more mass removal... strangehold is just ok t1-2 and after that most of the time dead...

While true, stranglehold isn't hit by the commonly played Abrupt Decay in many Elves lists. Their only answer is to hit that Rec Sage. But you may be right, I'll try both out. Thanks for the feedback :)

[Valleysdai]

I played your list tonight with a different sideboard. The main-deck I swapped 1 mountain for 1 gemstone caverns, and I cut another mountain to make it 60 cards MB. The sideboard i ran 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Fiery Confluence, 1 Volcanic Fallout, 2 Pithing Needle, 4 Trinisphere, 1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar, 1 Quicksmith Rebel, 2 Boil. I went 3-1 beating Jund, Eldrazi, Storm and losing to Elves.

For the future, I'll likely try this sideboard:

4 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Stranglehold

The Stranglehold will help against Elves, disabling their ability to search for rec sag. It's probably also good in other matches, as it completely turns of fetchlands if they aren't mountains. Confusion in the Ranks is for Show N Tell.

Also, curiously, this deck just won a fairly large Modern event. It's very similar to the legacy version of the deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/668641

I've debated running stranglehold but the fact that it does nothing else for its mana cost is the reason I decided to stick to torpor orb and cage to shut down elves' tutors.

Pyro prison does show how effective the concept of the deck is even with the restrictions in modern. The main difference (apart from fast mana) is that the modern version has more filtering than stompy.

[AceOfJacks]

Greetings everyone. It's been a little while since I posted, since things have gone crazy in my local meta since Top went away. Every Monday I play against Reanimator and DnT. It also seems I have been hit by a curse where I get mana screwed one round and then flood out in the next. At first I chalked it up to variance, but I believe my deck is just as pissed off as I am. The store is all combo and DnT, with a splash of Delver. I kinda took a break from Legacy as a result, but I might end up coming back if I highly tune my sideboard for my store and only my store. Seems like a dick move, but I'm tired of seeing "Turn 0 Reveal Chancellor, turn 1 Entomb then Reanimate Sire of Insanity, go."

I skimmed the pages I missed, but didn't really pay too much attention. I am going to try Hazoret as I have seen others do, but I'm not sold on the Quicksmith Rebel. 4 mana 2 toughness creature that MIGHT deal 2 damage before it dies seems like quite a desperate option in my (amateur) opinion.

[Koby]

Greetings everyone. It's been a little while since I posted, since things have gone crazy in my local meta since Top went away. Every Monday I play against Reanimator and DnT. It also seems I have been hit by a curse where I get mana screwed one round and then flood out in the next. At first I chalked it up to variance, but I believe my deck is just as pissed off as I am. The store is all combo and DnT, with a splash of Delver. I kinda took a break from Legacy as a result, but I might end up coming back if I highly tune my sideboard for my store and only my store. Seems like a dick move, but I'm tired of seeing "Turn 0 Reveal Chancellor, turn 1 Entomb then Reanimate Sire of Insanity, go."

I skimmed the pages I missed, but didn't really pay too much attention. I am going to try Hazoret as I have seen others do, but I'm not sold on the Quicksmith Rebel. 4 mana 2 toughness creature that MIGHT deal 2 damage before it dies seems like quite a desperate option in my (amateur) opinion.

I'm skipping on Quicksmith Rebel, and instead sticking with Magma Jet. It's not repeatable damae, but its castable early, kills SFM, and fixes awkward draws.

My sideboard as of today:
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Volcanic Fallout

1 Faerie Macabre might swap with a Ratchet Bomb as extra token destruction vs Dredge/Grixi delver/Elves

[Lyle Hopkins]

I have been tweaking this for a couple of months now, but haven't posted it here. The deck has around a 70% win rate and takes a tremendous amount of practice with mulliganing, but once you understand the mechanics it is very rewarding and fun to play

LANDS:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountains

CREATURES:

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Avaricious Dragon
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

OTHER SPELLS:

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

SIDEBOARD:

2 Fiery Confluence
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sun Droplet
4 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

As always the board is a work in progress, but the main deck is as good as it has ever been.

The combination of Smokestack and Goblin Rabblemaster seems fun! I'll have to try this out.

Thanks for sharing!

[TLK]

I'm skipping on Quicksmith Rebel, and instead sticking with Magma Jet. It's not repeatable damae, but its castable early, kills SFM, and fixes awkward draws.

My sideboard as of today:
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Volcanic Fallout

1 Faerie Macabre might swap with a Ratchet Bomb as extra token destruction vs Dredge/Grixi delver/Elves

What's your main? Trying to decide between this and D&T for Vegas.

[Koby]

10 Mountains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Sin Prodder
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Fiery Confluence
2 Magma Jet

I'm not sold on Koth nor Quicksmith not Hazoret. The deck doesn't need more 4 drops. It needs more consistency or filtering at lower mana points.

[pinkfrosting]

10 Mountains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Sin Prodder
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Fiery Confluence
2 Magma Jet

I'm not sold on Koth nor Quicksmith not Hazoret. The deck doesn't need more 4 drops. It needs more consistency or filtering at lower mana points.

I'm a huge fan magma jet, I think it's highly underrated. I've been playing it off and on in various builds but I haven't settled on a correct number.

[heyoka]

anybody testing Ghirapur Aether Grid in stead of Quicksmith rebel slot .. being lower in mana cost / re-usable and fiery confluence proof ?

[Valleysdai]

10 Mountains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Sin Prodder
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Fiery Confluence
2 Magma Jet

I'm not sold on Koth nor Quicksmith not Hazoret. The deck doesn't need more 4 drops. It needs more consistency or filtering at lower mana points.

If you want any help against reanimator, I can give you my experiences (I haven't lost against them yet, but small sample size).

Have you tried gemstone caverns instead of 2 mountains? I've found them to be so valuable.

[Koby]

anybody testing Ghirapur Aether Grid in stead of Quicksmith rebel slot .. being lower in mana cost / re-usable and fiery confluence proof ?

This is looking promising. Thanks for the suggestion.

[frogger42]

Why no equip? Just curious.

Simian Spirit Guide becomes a mid-late game beatstick with a Sword of Fire and Ice.

And so does Zoetic Cavern, if you want a better topdeck than Mountain.

[Jelmerz77]

Why no equip? Just curious.

Simian Spirit Guide becomes a mid-late game beatstick with a Sword of Fire and Ice.

And so does Zoetic Cavern, if you want a better topdeck than Mountain.

Because an equipment is a lousy topdeck when you are behind or on an empty board. This deck used to play equipment (Swords / Jitte) and most people moved away from it. Usually the criteria "Can a card dig me out of a hole by itself" is one I like.

Regarding the cavern..... You really want to add more colorless mana to this deck? You are already playing 8 remember? I would never play that in my deck, I would rather play Mishra’s Factory over it and I wouldn't even go there in this deck.

[shadowgripper]

Top 4-ed and split a Legacy 1k today with 31 players. Was running Dragon Stax:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
1 Gemstone Caverns

3 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Avaricious Dragon

4 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Smokestack

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Frenzied Fugue
1 Stranglehold
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Torpor Orb

Frenzied Fugue was a fun card to try, but there weren't many situations where it was useful, as most games were grindy with just a few 1/X or X/1 creatures in play. Confusion was for S&T, but seems loose as a 1-of. Stranglehold was to help against elves and maybe catch some other things, as it can't be decayed and turns of rec sage tutor and fetches. Torpor Orb was really good, as it helped against D&T for many reasons and also great against elves (rec sage / visionary). The Gemstone Caverns performed well, it only bit me one game the whole day where i somehow didn't have a 2nd red source for two turns, but i managed to get at least 4 luck counters, so definitely worth it.

Gonna update the sideboard to the following:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pyroclasm
2 Torpor Orb
1 XXXX

EDIT: Thinking on this some more, I thinking Walking Ballista deserves a slot. It helps if you flood, it's great against D&T as mom doesn't protect. It helps against young pyro decks. Not sure where to find room for it main or side.

[jandax]

A harsh reality we face is that sometimes we're just dead to certain combinations and plays. Super unfair decks can generally have their way with us. Our only shot is to sideboard very narrow cards. Seeing as how our maindeck is tuned to defeat vast swaths of the meta, it's not a bad idea to just run silver bullets in our side. Just my mentality about this deck. We don't need to be janking it up for tech's sake. Run solid cards, lose only when we really have to

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[Medea_]

I wrote a little primer (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1087) about Red Prison after playing with a bunch last weekend. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

[Princessforfun]

@shadowgripper

I'm really happy you picked up the deck and gave it a spin a few times. I've been at the beach over the weekend and haven't thought a out it much. I hope it was fun to play!

I think as far as cuts the 21 mana sources in some configuration are untouchable.

The Gemstone Cavern for a mountain is a great inclusion.

I bought two walking balista a few weeks ago and never put them in. I think they are very good answers. I want to try those or Siege-gang Commander as a two of. I don't have Elves! in my meta and I figured those two cards would feel really good and dree up the board to fight combo. I have felt that Blue decks or just decks light on permenants have a tough time in this match up and that is even further complecated by the confusion of what the lock it.

I like Torpor Orb alot and I have tested pretty extensively against D&T and have found that Sulfur Elemental isn't really needed as much as the early Bridge lock can get around prelate with the dragon and Rabblemaster in a long game.
Fiery Confluence is something that I think needs to be a 2-3 in the board. The value is too good for it to not be in the 76. I think it's better in the board than Pyrokenesis and do understand that it's CMC is 5.

[TLK]

This list top 4'd a 298-person Japanese tournament:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

2 Quicksmith Rebel
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Jokulhaups
1 Slice and Dice
4 Leyline of the Void


3 Hazoret and 3 Quicksmith Rebel. Interesting. Lots of board wipes in the sb.

[LeoCop 90]

I don't really understand if japanese players are trolls or what ... jokulhaups? really? i understand that you probably just win if it resolves because blood moon and planeswalkers stay on the field but come on, you can do better than playing six mana sorceries in legacy.

I like the rest of his list though... there too many 4 drops but since there are no good 3 drops that work well with ensnaring bridge it may be correct. I never liked sin prodder to begin with

[ZTurgeon]

I don't really understand if japanese players are trolls or what ... jokulhaups? really? i understand that you probably just win if it resolves because blood moon and planeswalkers stay on the field but come on, you can do better than playing six mana sorceries in legacy.

I like the rest of his list though... there too many 4 drops but since there are no good 3 drops that work well with ensnaring bridge it may be correct. I never liked sin prodder to begin with

Worth noting that it also has synergy with Hazoret. She stays around and whatever bridge or blockers that were keeping her at bay are suddenly gone.

[TLK]

I really want to play Dragon Stompy in Vegas but I have no idea which build to run. :cry:

[QQQ]

I really want to play Dragon Stompy in Vegas but I have no idea which build to run. :cry:

The consistent one.

[TLK]

Which is what?

[jandax]

This one

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[Jelmerz77]

l
The consistent one.

a constistent mono red deck that relies on top decks.... that's a contradictio in terminis... :tongue:

[Octopusman]

Been a long time.
Just wanted to post my GP Vegas list:

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ashen Rider
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sudden Shock

Mainboard
11 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Spellskite
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Chrome Box
3 Sin Prodder
4 Blood Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

Spellskite has been amazing. Protects Moons/Chalices from Krosan Grip, Decay, Plow, Pridemage, Reclamation Sage, etc etc etc etc etc.
Some guys have been messing around with it in Modern and thought I'd try it as I made room for a few slots.
Took out Pia and Kiran for the Sword because it has 8 cards in the 4CMC slot already and if I was going to include a 1 of I think it should be capable of just winning the game.

Cheers.

[Princessforfun]

Been a long time.
Just wanted to post mt GP Vegas list.

Cheers.

I think the amount of Sulfur Elemental in the board is a little too high now that Miracles doesn't have as many Mentor shenanigans. It's good agaisnt D&T, but I don't know if a four of is really necessary for the match up with the 4 Fiery Confluence main. I also think Jitte would be better than the sword on paper even though I haven't tested it. Seems pretty good with Spellskite though. I don't have as much experience with that type of list to really be credible.

[Wichtelman]

Spellskite has been amazing. Protects Moons/Chalices from Krosan Grip

i think not... ^^

anyways how you fill the 14-18 flex slots for what you think will be the meta is your choice... ;-)

[Karhumies]

Spellskite has been amazing.

Cmc 2 colorless flex slot is a meta and preference call which divides opinions. I haven't tried Spellskite yet but it does sound interesting due to its versatility. Bad with Jitte though and I don't really like running cmc3 Swords in my list.

Other options for cmc2 colorless:
MD Phyrexian Revoker
Smuggler's Copter
Walking Ballista

[jandax]

Of all of those revoker will pull the most weight. Spellskite is a no no in this deck. We need permanents or spells that can win on their own or turn a game state around. If you follow that guideline you'll be making the right choices. Imho 2drops don't belong in this deck as a chalice on 2 is a great play against most decks, And is something I try to do.

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[Valleysdai]

Of all of those revoker will pull the most weight. Spellskite is a no no in this deck. We need permanents or spells that can win on their own or turn a game state around. If you follow that guideline you'll be making the right choices. Imho 2drops don't belong in this deck as a chalice on 2 is a great play against most decks, And is something I try to do.

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I totally disagree, I've been running 2 walking Ballista main for months and they bring so much to the deck:

1. They have flexible cmc so get around chalices
2. They can grow or shrink
3. They can act as a board wipe (especially against X/1s)
4. Are colourless so get around mom/sword of X & Y)
5. Can be used to burn the opponent.
6. Really good when blocking (especially lifelinkers).

If people want I can post my list (it hasn't changed for a couple months).

[Karhumies]

Spellskite is a no no in this deck. We need permanents or spells that can win on their own or turn a game state around.

I don't necessarily agree.

Example scenario: against BUG a Blood Moon can instantly win us the game. Except if they float the mana to Abrupt Decay in response to cast it targeting the Moon. In this scenario, "slow-rolling" the Moon by playing the Spellskite first followed up by the Moon might just do the trick.

Similarly, vs D&T having Spellskite to protect our Ensnaring Bridge from getting "blinked" by Flickerwisp to prevent them from alpha striking can be HUGE. This leaves them with 1-2 Council's Judgment + SB artifact removal, whereas we can run 4 Bridges ftw.

[Wichtelman]

deleted

[Jelmerz77]

Imho 2drops don't belong in this deck as a chalice on 2 is a great play against most decks, And is something I try to do.

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If you play a Chalice at 2 then you can cast the Ballista at 2 as well dummy....
You've been sipping that Apple pie moonshine again? :wink:

Ballista could be interesting / versitile.... slow as beep though.

[Purple Blood]

Is Masticore at all playable in an Ensnaring Bridge build? I figure if Ballista is playable then why not.

[Jelmerz77]

Is Masticore at all playable in an Ensnaring Bridge build? I figure if Ballista is playable then why not.

But you don't have the flexibility to play it as a 2 (or a 6 or more) drop, that you do with Ballista.

[Purple Blood]

But you don't have the flexibility to play it as a 2 (or a 6 or more) drop, that you do with Ballista.

True, but assuming you want to play Ballista for 6 you can play it for 4 and then either have mana up to regen or start shooting things. Ballista costs 4 per point of damage while Masticore costs 2. Of course, there is the discard drawback, but with bridge that's not such a bad thing.

[Princessforfun]

Is Masticore at all playable in an Ensnaring Bridge build? I figure if Ballista is playable then why not.

Masticore only deals damage to creatures. Having to hold one card in hand until your next turn seems not so great against the miriad of token producers and tiny critters out there.

[Zirath]

True, but assuming you want to play Ballista for 6 you can play it for 4 and then either have mana up to regen or start shooting things. Ballista costs 4 per point of damage while Masticore costs 2. Of course, there is the discard drawback, but with bridge that's not such a bad thing.

Masticore can't go face. That's an enormous difference.

[jandax]

If you play a Chalice at 2 then you can cast the Ballista at 2 as well dummy....
You've been sipping that Apple pie moonshine again? :wink:

Ballista could be interesting / versitile.... slow as beep though.

I play goblins, no desire for ballista


Dummy

[jandax]

Channelfireball gave us some lime light today, Mengucci decided to go with the Japanese Hazoret build geared only to combat delver, dnt and fast combo

[Jelmerz77]

I play goblins, no desire for ballista


Dummy

Phyrexian Revoker isn't a goblin either.... Ballista might serve a purpose.

[jandax]

Not for the gobbos build. I realize it's applications for a generic build but it has little synergy with the moggcatcher package.

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[Karhumies]

I agree.

The gobbos build already has an excellent mana sink in Moggcatcher, so they don't need Ballista as a mana sink win con. They can just find a Rabblemaster or 2 and go for the beatdown path, or if hiding behind a Bridge get a Siege-Gang Commander and start flinging the Rabblemaster tokens into face. Ballista is the generic equivalent to this package (+ Goblin Sharpshooter as well), all in one card, which is kind of impressive.

At the same time, the cmc2 flex slots in goblin build are already filled up with cmc2 goblin silver bullets which Moggcatcher can tutor up. There is literally no room for Ballista in the cmc2 slot.

[pinkfrosting]

I agree.

The gobbos build already has an excellent mana sink in Moggcatcher, so they don't need Ballista as a mana sink win con. They can just find a Rabblemaster or 2 and go for the beatdown path, or if hiding behind a Bridge get a Siege-Gang Commander and start flinging the Rabblemaster tokens into face. Ballista is the generic equivalent to this package (+ Goblin Sharpshooter as well), all in one card, which is kind of impressive.

At the same time, the cmc2 flex slots in goblin build are already filled up with cmc2 goblin silver bullets which Moggcatcher can tutor up. There is literally no room for Ballista in the cmc2 slot.

The goblin build I've been running online is very trimmed down to what I view as the essentials. Settler, kiki, siege gang, and rabblemaster.

Fiery Confluence is far too good not to run so I don't need tuktuk, it's nice having a redcap but it's very low impact if drawn and siege gang can do the same thing, just slower. I keep stingscourger in the side for reanimator and show and tell, too low impact game one against anything else.

[jandax]

That's lean man, I run 20 lands and that package plus the scourger and redcap main.

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[pinkfrosting]

I'm on 19 lands, although 20 may be correct. Most of the other bullets though have simply been outclassed by higher impact non-goblin cards that we can run 4 of. I still love the card advantage of moggcatcher though, and settler killing their 1 basic has sealed so many games for me. I tried the full package for a while but found many pieces simply unnecessary or redundant.

[jandax]

I still run cavern. Yolo

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