[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Scott]

Dragon Stompy on the GP stream (https://www.twitch.tv/magic) in round 6 against Grixis Tempo right now, at 5-1. Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge already in play, heh.

[jandax]

GGs

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[Karhumies]

... settler killing their 1 basic has sealed so many games for me.

I've been thinking about running a 1-of Settler in a non-goblin build. But the price for the real life piece of cardboard is steep. :-/

[cin]

Dragon Stompy on the GP stream (https://www.twitch.tv/magic) in round 6 against Grixis Tempo right now, at 5-1. Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge already in play, heh.

The pilot of that deck was Marco Cammilluzzi and he was disqualified in Round 8.
Link: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplv17/head-judge-statement-on-marco-cammilluzzi-dq-2017-06-15

"Marco Cammilluzzi was disqualified in Round 8 during an investigation. The head judge has provided the following statement:

During Round 8, a floor judge became involved in Marco Cammilluzzi’s match because of a game play error. During the investigation, Cammilluzzi’s explanations led me to believe that he could be providing misleading statements about how he thought a card worked, and how he had played it during this event. After gathering information from previous rounds’ opponents, I concluded that this was indeed the case. The rules state that lying to a tournament official is an infraction that requires a disqualification."

I think he was using the decklist of Cody Johnston
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15469&d=294226&f=LE

18 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

14 CREATURES
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sin Prodder

4 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Fiery Confluence

24 OTHER SPELLS
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Trinisphere

SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Sun Droplet
1 Trinisphere

[pinkfrosting]

I've been thinking about running a 1-of Settler in a non-goblin build. But the price for the real life piece of cardboard is steep. :-/

The only real reason to run settler over other choices is that he's a goblin and he sticks around for kiki shenanigans. If you aren't tutoring for him or copying him you can just swap it for avalanche riders.

I also toyed with the idea of running some number of "destroy target land" cards but I'm not sure what or how many. While we can easily run generic beater type cards as one-ofs, a specific effect like wanting to destroy a basic needs multiples to see any success, and it's match up specific so it's not great in the main, especially when so many tier one decks still fold to blood moon. I'm running 3 boil in the side but I may test riders and see how that goes. The 2/2 haste body is nice too over boil. Boil has been insane against blue decks that mostly ignore moon though (show, miracles, UR, grixis control)

[CptHaddock]

"Marco Cammilluzzi was disqualified in Round 8 during an investigation. The head judge has provided the following statement:

During Round 8, a floor judge became involved in Marco Cammilluzzi’s match because of a game play error. During the investigation, Cammilluzzi’s explanations led me to believe that he could be providing misleading statements about how he thought a card worked, and how he had played it during this event. After gathering information from previous rounds’ opponents, I concluded that this was indeed the case. The rules state that lying to a tournament official is an infraction that requires a disqualification."


Lolwut? What can you possibly even misrepresent with this deck? The artifact that you picked with quicksmith rebel?

[pinkfrosting]

Lolwut? What can you possibly even misrepresent with this deck? The artifact that you picked with quicksmith rebel?

I would imagine either chalice or trinisphere. He may have been playing spells through his own chalice and then lied and tried to claim he thought the effect wasn't symmetrical.

[hovercraft]

I would imagine either chalice or trinisphere. He may have been playing spells through his own chalice and then lied and tried to claim he thought the effect wasn't symmetrical.

Another suggestion I saw could be that he was making people pay 3 mana for Trinisphere for Gurmag Angler after delve.

Edit, per reddit: Apparently it was actually Rabblemaster. He was making tokens and not attacking with them, and said Rabblemaster pumped itself.

[jandax]

So this Marco guy had a sweet deck on a good run. Glad the karma Police busted this douche.

[Karhumies]

The only real reason to run settler over other choices is that he's a goblin and he sticks around for kiki shenanigans.

- Can attack under Bridge while holding the single turn draw card, unlike Riders
- Our Jitte is much better with anything that sticks around
- Protects against opposing Liliana -1 and Edict effects
- chump blocking to win a tight race

I don't care about the haste or the 2/2 body. The only advantage of Riders over Settler I see is that if running Cavern of Souls, choosing "human" hits both Magus and Riders.

[jandax]

And it's like, you know, 100x cheaper

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[pinkfrosting]

- Can attack under Bridge while holding the single turn draw card, unlike Riders
- Our Jitte is much better with anything that sticks around
- Protects against opposing Liliana -1 and Edict effects
- chump blocking to win a tight race

I don't care about the haste or the 2/2 body. The only advantage of Riders over Settler I see is that if running Cavern of Souls, choosing "human" hits both Magus and Riders.

Fair points. I think the 2/2 haste is not bad, especially with us often confluencing for 1 damage to all, but I can definitely see wanting a body that sticks without needing to pay echo.

[jandax]

To be honest, nuking that one basic is cake. If you get to go off with kiki jiki it's icing. If you're running bridge main and have flex slots, look to stone rain. It's granny tech but if they're Alpha or Beta copies (summer is okay too) then it's worth the aesthetic pleasure alone. I suppose.

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[Koby]

Another suggestion I saw could be that he was making people pay 3 mana for Trinisphere for Gurmag Angler after delve.

Edit, per reddit: Apparently it was actually Rabblemaster. He was making tokens and not attacking with them, and said Rabblemaster pumped itself.

When i saw the judge call, he had Rabblemaster, and one card in hand, but no goblin tokens in play vs an untapped Griselbrand. Something infers to me that he was not making Goblin tokens that would be forced to attack under zbridge against griselbrand. Otherwise, it could be he was cheating to his opponent that Rabblemaster had more than 2 power for ccombat and misrepresenting the rules to his advantage.

[Princessforfun]

The only real reason to run settler over other choices is that he's a goblin and he sticks around for kiki shenanigans. If you aren't tutoring for him or copying him you can just swap it for avalanche riders.

I also toyed with the idea of running some number of "destroy target land" cards but I'm not sure what or how many. While we can easily run generic beater type cards as one-ofs, a specific effect like wanting to destroy a basic needs multiples to see any success, and it's match up specific so it's not great in the main, especially when so many tier one decks still fold to blood moon. I'm running 3 boil in the side but I may test riders and see how that goes. The 2/2 haste body is nice too over boil. Boil has been insane against blue decks that mostly ignore moon though (show, miracles, UR, grixis control)

Goblin Settler is a her. :wink:

[Princessforfun]

So this Marco guy had a sweet deck on a good run. Glad the karma Police busted this douche.

Yup!

[Karhumies]

If you're running bridge main and have flex slots, look to stone rain. It's granny tech but ...

Good point. I think I might prefer the -1cmc of Stone Rain over the 2/2 haste 3R echo body of Riders.

[MGB]

I think I saw somebody playing Dragon Stompy at GP Vegas with Rakdos Pitdragons (!!) still...

[fluuu]

So this Marco guy had a sweet deck on a good run. Glad the karma Police busted this douche.

list?

[jandax]

Yup!

Is the stock list with 3 hazoret and 4 MD bridges

Edit

Just threw up in my mouth a bit

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Masterpiece+Series:Foil/Blood+Moon#paper

[Valleysdai]

Who's going to get the invocation blood moons?

[jandax]

Marco, so he can misrepresent the card

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[Valleysdai]

What are people's thoughts on running some number (my guess 1 or 2) of outpost sieges for sin prodder?

[Jelmerz77]

What are people's thoughts on running some number (my guess 1 or 2) of outpost sieges for sin prodder?

4 Drop.deck?

And you already have 2 Chandra's that have a similar mode. (We are not going to name Dragons I hope)
And people will bring already enchantment hate in if they run it, so I see no reason why you want to run this over a planeswalker with more modes.

I used to have a couple of these in the board vs control in the pre Chandra era, but moved away since.

[hofzge]

What are people's thoughts on running some number (my guess 1 or 2) of outpost sieges for sin prodder?

As said above: No more 4 drops. I liked the way Wichtelmann evolved the deck cutting 1 Fiery and replacing it by Sudden Shocks (2drops). You really should not overdo it with 4 drops.

I would rather play Rabblemasters -> I don't like the Sin Prodders as they are so hit/miss. With the Rabblemasters you also have a fast clock against Storm/Miracles.
Also you have the potential to get DQed...:cool:

[Princessforfun]

I'm going to find a way to get two of these in the main or board in the dragon stax list.

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/miragemirror.html

[ZEROorDIE]

tested out the dragon stax list last night. definitely made a few crucial play errors but I really like the dragon/bridge synergy. unfortunately one game I got wrecked by gadddock teeg.

I'm going to make some tweaks to the list and try again.

notably,
-4 smokestack
-1 mix diamond

+3 2cmc removal (magma jet most likely)
+1 siege gang
+1 idk, quicksmith, hazoret, koth

or I might try and get a couple 3cmc threats in there. still exploring options.

I had no problems locking my opponents out of playing magic, but the deck is slow to win and gives the opponent ample time to draw out of the lock. smokestack not being able to target problem critters was an issue.

as much as I love smokestack, it's very hard to leverage it efficiently in legacy.

[Wichtelman]

deleted

[Karhumies]

I'm going to find a way to get two of these in the main or board in the dragon stax list.

http://mythicspoiler.com/hou/cards/miragemirror.html

You activate it once in opponent's end step to become a copy of Smokestack to get an initial soot counter on it in your upkeep, then afterwards you always activate it in your own end step to become a copy of Smokestack to get asymmetrical smokestack effects for the opponent's upkeep?

Damn, that's a ridiculously complex play sequence to pull off.

[Lyle Hopkins]

You activate it once in opponent's end step to become a copy of Smokestack to get an initial soot counter on it in your upkeep, then afterwards you always activate it in your own end step to become a copy of Smokestack to get asymmetrical smokestack effects for the opponent's upkeep?

Damn, that's a ridiculously complex play sequence to pull off.

I thought there might be some sort of possible shinanigans with Smokestack. Thank you for explaining this line of play.

I'm excited to test this card!

Edit:
I brought this up with some Legacy friends and I guess this might not work... still excited though. :laugh:

[Koby]

You activate it once in opponent's end step to become a copy of Smokestack to get an initial soot counter on it in your upkeep, then afterwards you always activate it in your own end step to become a copy of Smokestack to get asymmetrical smokestack effects for the opponent's upkeep?

Damn, that's a ridiculously complex play sequence to pull off.

RFCF - "2: Mirage Mirror becomes a copy of target artifact, creature, enchantment, or land until end of turn."

There's no profitable way to interact Mirror with Smokestack.

[Karhumies]

RFCF - "2: Mirage Mirror becomes a copy of target artifact, creature, enchantment, or land until end of turn."

There's no profitable way to interact Mirror with Smokestack.

You are correct.

With some googling, I found out that "In modern-day Magic rules, every player's turn has a phase called the "end phase". The last step of the end phase is to remove all "until end of turn" effects and all damage simultaneously."

I was under the false impression that "end of turn" would be the same thing as a "beginning of next end step" delayed trigger. I stand corrected.

[Jelmerz77]

You are correct.

With some googling, I found out that "In modern-day Magic rules, every player's turn has a phase called the "end phase". The last step of the end phase is to remove all "until end of turn" effects and all damage simultaneously."

I was under the false impression that "end of turn" would be the same thing as a "beginning of next end step" delayed trigger. I stand corrected.

Should it not work if you put a sooth counter on it in your turn and you copy it in t the opponents untap fase / beginning of upkeep to make it a copy of Smokestack?

Shouldn't the desired interaction work then?

[Karhumies]

Should it not work if you put a sooth counter on it in your turn and you copy it in t the opponents untap fase / beginning of upkeep to make it a copy of Smokestack?

Shouldn't the desired interaction work then?

Smokestack triggers are put on the stack at beginning of upkeep. Correct me if I am wrong but you never get priority before beginning of upkeep. If you activate it in upkeep when you get priority for the first time to become a copy of Smokestack, you have already missed the trigger condition (beginning of upkeep).

In other words,
1) you never get to place a counter on it, requires beginning of upkeep
2) even if it would magically have a counter on it, the sacrifice trigger does not happen, requires beginning of upkeep

[Koby]

1) you never get to place a counter on it, requires beginning of upkeep
2) even if it would magically have a counter on it, the sacrifice trigger does not happen, requires beginning of upkeep

This is correct. Since 6E rules, beginning of step triggers are automatically put on the stack. The cards that generate them have to enter the step with the trigger text. Once all the "beginning of" triggers are put on the stack, only then can a player respond. This rules out any opportunity to profitably activate Mirror to become Smokestack.

Think of it another way, you cannot copy Goblin Rabblemaster with mirror in the Combat step to generate the token. It has to be a copy of Rabblemaster in Main Phase I in order to enter Combat Step as Rabblemaster to generate a token.

Unfortunately, there is no point in the turn prior to mid-Upkeep that a player can activate abilities.

[frogger42]

Because an equipment is a lousy topdeck when you are behind or on an empty board. This deck used to play equipment (Swords / Jitte) and most people moved away from it. Usually the criteria "Can a card dig me out of a hole by itself" is one I like.

Regarding the cavern..... You really want to add more colorless mana to this deck? You are already playing 8 remember? I would never play that in my deck, I would rather play Mishra’s Factory over it and I wouldn't even go there in this deck.

Eh! Disagree. Simian Spirit Guide is a terrible topdeck... unless you have equipment. With SoFI, now it's a threat. And with token generators (Rabble, and possibly Hanweir Garrison) it makes it much easier to have a token or dude on the field to suit up.

Zoetic Cavern has been fine for me. Like SSG, it smooths out the mana (adding a couple extra lands) while you can convert a land to a beater mid-late game. Mishra's Factory is an obvious no-no with Blood Moon.

I'm against Ensnaring Bridge. I don't like to be in topdeck mode in a deck that has 0 manipulation. You have to topdeck your answers to your opponent's threats every turn. That's how you lose games. The Moggcatcher build is the only one that really gets around that.

[fluuu]

Eh! Disagree. Simian Spirit Guide is a terrible topdeck... unless you have equipment. With SoFI, now it's a threat. And with token generators (Rabble, and possibly Hanweir Garrison) it makes it much easier to have a token or dude on the field to suit up.

Zoetic Cavern has been fine for me. Like SSG, it smooths out the mana (adding a couple extra lands) while you can convert a land to a beater mid-late game. Mishra's Factory is an obvious no-no with Blood Moon.

I'm against Ensnaring Bridge. I don't like to be in topdeck mode in a deck that has 0 manipulation. You have to topdeck your answers to your opponent's threats every turn. That's how you lose games. The Moggcatcher build is the only one that really gets around that.

Can someone post the best moggcatcher version?

Thanks

[Curby]

Because an equipment is a lousy topdeck when you are behind or on an empty board.


Eh! Disagree. Simian Spirit Guide is a terrible topdeck... unless you have equipment.

This is weird, aren't you both saying very similar things? In the late game, SSG and equipment are pretty codependent. Equipment isn't useful without creatures, and SSG is ok without equipment against an empty board, but in you could win with anything if you have board control. I'd say neither fits the bill if you're looking for cards that can individually dig you out of holes. (Of course SSG is useful for acceleration etc., but we're talking about topdeck utility.)

[jugglervr]

Smokestack triggers are put on the stack at beginning of upkeep. Correct me if I am wrong but you never get priority before beginning of upkeep. If you activate it in upkeep when you get priority for the first time to become a copy of Smokestack, you have already missed the trigger condition (beginning of upkeep).

In other words,
1) you never get to place a counter on it, requires beginning of upkeep
2) even if it would magically have a counter on it, the sacrifice trigger does not happen, requires beginning of upkeep

If it was a trigger (like shallow grave or flickerwisp), you could use it at an end step and it would last until the next. So you would be able to copy the smokestack once at opponent's end step, and then it will have its upkeep triggers on your turn. After that, it has soot counters so you can activate it at your end step from then on and you have The Abyss for permanents. All it takes is a boatload of mana and 2 fairly fragile cards in a format with maindeck abrupt decay. Seems 100% awful even if it did work. Sundial of the infinite actually does work with smokestack and is still too durdly.

[Koby]

If it was a trigger (like shallow grave or flickerwisp), you could use it at an end step and it would last until the next. So you would be able to copy the smokestack once at opponent's end step, and then it will have its upkeep triggers on your turn. After that, it has soot counters so you can activate it at your end step from then on and you have The Abyss for permanents. All it takes is a boatload of mana and 2 fairly fragile cards in a format with maindeck abrupt decay. Seems 100% awful even if it did work. Sundial of the infinite actually does work with smokestack and is still too durdly.

This isn't how the card works, so speculation how it would work is masturbation at best. The rules don't even work in this fictional scenario you're describing, so your post is basically pointless on all fronts.

[Claymore]

Did a quick search and you could accomplish that effect with Mizzium Transreliquat. Useless, but neat.

[frogger42]

This is weird, aren't you both saying very similar things? In the late game, SSG and equipment are pretty codependent. Equipment isn't useful without creatures, and SSG is ok without equipment against an empty board, but in you could win with anything if you have board control. I'd say neither fits the bill if you're looking for cards that can individually dig you out of holes. (Of course SSG is useful for acceleration etc., but we're talking about topdeck utility.)

Sort of saying the same thing. Except Simian Spirit Guide isn't getting cut - it definitely stays in the deck. Equipment is optional, but my argument is SSG without equipment is rather terrible. If you run a few equipment, now SSG becomes a decent finisher - 3 turns instead of around 10. Those extra 6-7 turns means your opponent can draw a new hand's worth of cards to get themselves out of the hole.

Assume you'll never had board control the rest of the game through, no matter what you resolve - like Tarmogoyf, just try to finish them fast. Assume your Chalice / Moon is only going to slow them down, because there's always a way out of it, and just finish them fast. SSG can do that only with equip.

And of course, rando tokens that are left over from Rabbles or Hanweir are also super good when suited up. Equip by itself is a bad TD, but quite frankly, your threat density is high enough that you should find a dude in 2-3 turns, even on an empty board.

[Karhumies]

Equipment + Bridge mixes badly.

Equipment without Bridge versus creature/midrange decks can help us grind using SSG, Rabblemaster, Sin Prodder, Dragons. My personal favorite thus far has been Jitte due to the lower cmc and versatility, but protection of any Swords of your choice can help against creature removal and when blocking against a crowded board.

[jandax]

What problem is a piece of equipment solving for this deck?

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[frogger42]

What problem is a piece of equipment solving for this deck?

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Bad topdecks in the form of SSG (and Sin Prodder, not that good), removal beyond Fiery Confluence, and the fact that Bridge stinks unless you're on Moggcatcher. And that Bridge has all of 4 Chandra to synergize with - not a great gameplan. (Hazoret is the worst Cursed Scroll I've seen, btw.)

You have a chance not to lose to Punishing Fire, TNN, Flickerwisp (ie remove DnT's other dudes), and of course Decay / Krosan Grip. I'd assume an active DRS is also a problem here, when a Moon doesn't stick.

Not running Bridge also makes your mass of creatures swing. You run a lot of creatures. Equipment makes those creatures decent threats.

EDIT: Forgot SFM + Jitte. Forgot Reclamation Sage. Probably forgot another card or two. Burn. IDK what else.

[frogger42]

Equipment + Bridge mixes badly.

Equipment without Bridge versus creature/midrange decks can help us grind using SSG, Rabblemaster, Sin Prodder, Dragons. My personal favorite thus far has been Jitte due to the lower cmc and versatility, but protection of any Swords of your choice can help against creature removal and when blocking against a crowded board.

Jitte is great. I think 4-5 equip is fair - I ran 6 for a bit, and I got an opening hand with half my equip, no threats. Some mix of SoFI / Jitte seems the best.

[frogger42]

Bad topdecks in the form of SSG (and Sin Prodder, not that good), removal beyond Fiery Confluence, and the fact that Bridge stinks unless you're on Moggcatcher. And that Bridge has all of 4 Chandra to synergize with - not a great gameplan. (Hazoret is the worst Cursed Scroll I've seen, btw.)

You have a chance not to lose to Punishing Fire, TNN, Flickerwisp (ie remove DnT's other dudes), and of course Decay / Krosan Grip. I'd assume an active DRS is also a problem here, when a Moon doesn't stick.

Not running Bridge also makes your mass of creatures swing. You run a lot of creatures. Equipment makes those creatures decent threats.

EDIT: Forgot SFM + Jitte. Forgot Reclamation Sage. Probably forgot another card or two. Burn. IDK what else.

EDIT 2: Planeswalkers are the worst, including Jace TMS and Liliana otV.

[jandax]

Bad topdecks in the form of SSG (and Sin Prodder, not that good), removal beyond Fiery Confluence, and the fact that Bridge stinks unless you're on Moggcatcher. And that Bridge has all of 4 Chandra to synergize with - not a great gameplan. (Hazoret is the worst Cursed Scroll I've seen, btw.)

You have a chance not to lose to Punishing Fire, TNN, Flickerwisp (ie remove DnT's other dudes), and of course Decay / Krosan Grip. I'd assume an active DRS is also a problem here, when a Moon doesn't stick.

Not running Bridge also makes your mass of creatures swing. You run a lot of creatures. Equipment makes those creatures decent threats.

EDIT: Forgot SFM + Jitte. Forgot Reclamation Sage. Probably forgot another card or two. Burn. IDK what else.
Honestly a piece of equipment is as bad a topdeck as ssg sometimes but ssg technically can win a game on its own. Cutting one for equipment lowers the consistency of the deck. A higher consistency in the deck leads to over all better topdeck. Mind bullets.

However feel free to add one in a flex slot. I do run a good moggcatcher build so even given the chance I don't

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[Karhumies]

What problem is a piece of equipment solving for this deck?

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Jitte:
-1/-1 counters from a colorless source to kill Mother of Runes, Phyrexian Revoker naming Chandra/Moggcatcher and Sanctum Prelate on 4. Also randomly good at killing elves and getting rid of opposing Bridges vs Dredge by killing our own guys. Also has the options to offset opponent's clock/storm count with life gain and to speed our clock by buffing. The potential of the buffs can also make us dominate the air space versus Delver, Flickerwisp and even Tombstalker.

SoFI:
2 damage from colorless source for the same creature removal reasons listed above + punches through opposing TNN blocker + card advantage for the grind. Also gives buffs and prot red to a weak guy to survive our own Fiery Confluence for 2+.

SoLS:
Protection from the most common removal colors, white and black. Punches through opposing Mother of Runes unless they have a colorless blocker.

Magus of the Moon with any equipment is harder to kill. Sin Prodder or Rabblemaster with any equipment is a beast for eating the opponent's life total.

I've been happy with 0-1 equipment MD + 0-1 equipment SB. Flex slots.

[fluuu]

Honestly a piece of equipment is as bad a topdeck as ssg sometimes but ssg technically can win a game on its own. Cutting one for equipment lowers the consistency of the deck. A higher consistency in the deck leads to over all better topdeck. Mind bullets.

However feel free to add one in a flex slot. I do run a good moggcatcher build so even given the chance I don't

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Can u post ur list plz?

[jandax]

I don't think y'all (frogger to a degree and karhumies) are getting the point of the question. I know what equipment can do on the battlefield. Karhumies: if dnt is a big problem for you, commit more sideboard slots to the match. I recommend anarchy and sulfur elemental. You're not going wider than Dnt with sin prodder ect in your deck. Therefore equipment seems suboptimal just from a theory stand point.

The thing is, imvho, this deck needs cards that have an independent impact on the battlefield in order to execute the game plan (deal lethal damage to player). Equipment, by design, are dependant (on creatures and the combat zone). That's my logic with the deck and card choices. I'm not the one to debate merrits of equipment, just wanted to play devil's advocate 😁

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[Karhumies]

I don't think y'all (frogger to a degree and karhumies) are getting the point of the question. I know what equipment can do on the battlefield. Karhumies: if dnt is a big problem for you, commit more sideboard slots to the match. I recommend anarchy and sulfur elemental. You're not going wider than Dnt with sin prodder ect in your deck. Therefore equipment seems suboptimal just from a theory stand point.

The thing is, imvho, this deck needs cards that have an independent impact on the battlefield in order to execute the game plan (deal lethal damage to player). Equipment, by design, are dependant (on creatures and the combat zone). That's my logic with the deck and card choices. I'm not the one to debate merrits of equipment, just wanted to play devil's advocate 😁

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Honestly, it depends.

In a list with 0 bridge, 0 moggcatcher, 4 rabblemaster, 3+ pia nalaar / pia and kiran nalaar which attacks with every single creature every turn, the problem is any opposing blocker with 1+ attack and 2+ toughness. Jitte seems like a nice fit here.

In a list with 3+ dragons, 0 bridge, attacking with 1 large creature every turn to dominate the air space while holding back the other creatures, SoLS to protect the large guy from removal is a nice fit.

SoFI can be a meta call.

In a list with 4 bridge MD, equipments are a poor fit.

In a list with 2-4 Smuggler's Copter, additional equipment is a poor fit.

[frogger42]

Honestly, it depends.

In a list with 0 bridge, 0 moggcatcher, 4 rabblemaster, 3+ pia nalaar / pia and kiran nalaar which attacks with every single creature every turn, the problem is any opposing blocker with 1+ attack and 2+ toughness. Jitte seems like a nice fit here.

In a list with 3+ dragons, 0 bridge, attacking with 1 large creature every turn to dominate the air space while holding back the other creatures, SoLS to protect the large guy from removal is a nice fit.

SoFI can be a meta call.

In a list with 4 bridge MD, equipments are a poor fit.

In a list with 2-4 Smuggler's Copter, additional equipment is a poor fit.

I agree with all this. I'm going to add to that - I'm really not a fan of 4 drop dragons anywhere, esp when you have access to Rabblemaster. That guy is redonk. Seriously. 3x you beat through a Griselbrand, easy.

Rabble makes a super strong argument for Equip. I housed someone with a Gobbo token + SoFI, after Rabble was removed.

I went 4-3 today, no Bridge, Equip stompy. Not bad, but shoulda done better. Zoetic Cavern was super good, did exactly what it needed to do. I ran short a Mountain or two, lost to myself mostly.

[frogger42]

I don't think y'all (frogger to a degree and karhumies) are getting the point of the question. I know what equipment can do on the battlefield. Karhumies: if dnt is a big problem for you, commit more sideboard slots to the match. I recommend anarchy and sulfur elemental. You're not going wider than Dnt with sin prodder ect in your deck. Therefore equipment seems suboptimal just from a theory stand point.

The thing is, imvho, this deck needs cards that have an independent impact on the battlefield in order to execute the game plan (deal lethal damage to player). Equipment, by design, are dependant (on creatures and the combat zone). That's my logic with the deck and card choices. I'm not the one to debate merrits of equipment, just wanted to play devil's advocate 😁

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I get what you're saying about Equip, and advocate away. But in that case, Stoneforge Mystic is a bad combo. And it's not. Yes, equip are dependent... upon you having 1 of your 20 creatures in the deck. That's fine, it should be active almost every game. And your opponent is going to want to FoW anything that hits the table. DnT does the equip dance super successfully because of their threat density.

Not a fan of Anarchy in DnT. Absolutely nope. Super super narrow - I must've listed a dozen MUs where equip is flexible and useful. Anarchy is only 1. (Even Sulfur has other uses outside of White, yes.)

[rlesko]

You're on the play, blind, with the following hand:

mountain, city of traitors, 2x chalice of the void, blood moon, simian spirit guide, magma jet

Basically the question is which of these lines is the best?
1) cast chalice off of city of traitors
2) cast chalice off of mountain + simian
3) cast blood moon

I think I would go with sequence number 2

[Curby]

I'm trying to think of a way to have Chalice T1, Daze-proof Moon T2, and two land in play after your second turn. Not sure it's possible. Chalice is probably the right first turn play though.

[jandax]

I would go city C@1 turn one then turn two try to land C@2. Blind that play has way more upside.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Karhumies]

You're on the play, blind, with the following hand:

mountain, city of traitors, 2x chalice of the void, blood moon, simian spirit guide, magma jet

Basically the question is which of these lines is the best?
1) cast chalice off of city of traitors
2) cast chalice off of mountain + simian
3) cast blood moon

I think I would go with sequence number 2

On the play, I would go for t1 city, ssg, blood moon. If the moon is not forced, continue with chalice 0. Followed up by t2 mountain, chalice on 1. My thinking here is to turn the opposing t1 fetchland into a mountain. Against BUG, UWB, UBR decks this might win me the game on t1 if they don't have FoW (very tough to cast Abrupt Decay or Council's Judgment on Blood Moon with 0 non-mountain fetches). Chalice 0 on t1 is to prevent Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED to fix their mana.

A weakness of this approach I can think of is that the opponent can cast a T1 Faithless Looting off their mountain. If the opponent is Dredge, this can be bad, if reanimator, they are struggling to get B mana. Belcher and Burn are also undisturbed by the moon, but I am hoping the t2 Chalice 1 is enough to disturb them.

Chances are, the opponent does not have a basic swamp in hand for DRS, basic forest for Noble Hierarch or basic island for cantrips/counters/active daze, making them completely miss their t1 play.

[Karhumies]

By the way, there is a RU Stompy utilizing As Foretold + Ancestral Vision + Restore Balance package over at the New & Developmental decks -section of the forum:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31787-Deck-Foretold-Stompy

[Ace/Homebrew]

3x you beat through a Griselbrand, easy.
Can you better explain this?


But in that case, Stoneforge Mystic is a bad combo. And it's not.
This is a dishonest comparison... SfM is good because it finds and cheats equipment into play, not because it can wear equipment. Especially because 80% of the time the equipment it finds doesn't require a body anyway (Batterskull).

[ZTurgeon]

On the play, I would go for t1 city, ssg, blood moon. If the moon is not forced, continue with chalice 0. Followed up by t2 mountain, chalice on 1. My thinking here is to turn the opposing t1 fetchland into a mountain. Against BUG, UWB, UBR decks this might win me the game on t1 if they don't have FoW (very tough to cast Abrupt Decay or Council's Judgment on Blood Moon with 0 non-mountain fetches). Chalice 0 on t1 is to prevent Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, LED to fix their mana.

A weakness of this approach I can think of is that the opponent can cast a T1 Faithless Looting off their mountain. If the opponent is Dredge, this can be bad, if reanimator, they are struggling to get B mana. Belcher and Burn are also undisturbed by the moon, but I am hoping the t2 Chalice 1 is enough to disturb them.

Chances are, the opponent does not have a basic swamp in hand for DRS, basic forest for Noble Hierarch or basic island for cantrips/counters/active daze, making them completely miss their t1 play.

100% this. You want to stop the first basic before anything else.

[frogger42]

Can you better explain this?

Rabblemathster. x3 presents a metric ton of damage vs Griselbrand. I beat BR Rean somehow with super goblins.


This is a dishonest comparison... SfM is good because it finds and cheats equipment into play, not because it can wear equipment. Especially because 80% of the time the equipment it finds doesn't require a body anyway (Batterskull).

It sort of is dihonest, yes... but what I said still has some truth to it. The argument was Equip was too reliant on other cards - mine was "Yeah, but you have about 20 cards it synergizes with." Consider that Miracles used to run SFM -> Batterskull / Jitte. That fell waaaaay to the wayside, because stranded Jitte was horrible - the only dudes were SFM and Angel tokens, maybe 2 Snaps. SFM by itself is actually pretty terrible - but that you fetch up an Equip for your 20 other dudes... now that makes your SoFI super consistent. Batterskull in those decks (DnT, Stoneblade) is probably the weakest Equip to fetch out, unless you can protect SFM somehow.

In a prison deck without SFM, but with 16-20 dudes - I think you still jam equip. Makes sense to me!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Rabblemathster. x3 presents a metric ton of damage vs Griselbrand. I beat BR Rean somehow with super goblins.
Okay, but your anecdote appears to be the exception rather than the rule. The forced attack from Rabblemaster means a Griselbrand player can sit back and draw 8 cards each of your turns. In pretty much any scenario other than having 3 Rabblemasters on the battlefield, Rabble is weak versus Griselbrand where Sin Prodder excels (menace).



It sort of is dihonest, yes... but what I said still has some truth to it. The argument was Equip was too reliant on other cards - mine was "Yeah, but you have about 20 cards it synergizes with." Consider that Miracles used to run SFM -> Batterskull / Jitte. That fell waaaaay to the wayside, because stranded Jitte was horrible - the only dudes were SFM and Angel tokens, maybe 2 Snaps. SFM by itself is actually pretty terrible - but that you fetch up an Equip for your 20 other dudes... now that makes your SoFI super consistent. Batterskull in those decks (DnT, Stoneblade) is probably the weakest Equip to fetch out, unless you can protect SFM somehow.
:u::w: Stoneblade just got 12th (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23706&iddeck=184836) and 14th (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23706&iddeck=184838) out of 2656 with only 12 and 11 creatures respectively.

In my opinion, equipment is best in this deck when
your threat base is so underwhelming you need it to turn SSGs into beaters
your threat base calls for equipment (Prophetic Flamespeaker)
the opposing deck folds to a specific equipment (Jitte against Elves)

Your opinion appears to be "equipment all the time". In a list that main decks Ensnaring Bridge, or one with sufficiently powerful stand-alone threats (Thunderbreak Regent), equipment are unnecessary or best relegated to the sideboard.

[frogger42]

Okay, but your anecdote appears to be the exception rather than the rule. The forced attack from Rabblemaster means a Griselbrand player can sit back and draw 8 cards each of your turns. In pretty much any scenario other than having 3 Rabblemasters on the battlefield, Rabble is weak versus Griselbrand where Sin Prodder excels (menace).

I realize this. I was mostly showing off my unwinnable MU. Still, if your argument is "Sin Prodder is better than Rabble vs Griselbrand," and mine is "Rabble is a relevant T1 threat vs the whole field (or 85% of it)..."


:u::w: Stoneblade just got 12th (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23706&iddeck=184836) and 14th (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23706&iddeck=184838) out of 2656 with only 12 and 11 creatures respectively.

In my opinion, equipment is best in this deck when
your threat base is so underwhelming you need it to turn SSGs into beaters
your threat base calls for equipment (Prophetic Flamespeaker)
the opposing deck folds to a specific equipment (Jitte against Elves)

Your opinion appears to be "equipment all the time". In a list that main decks Ensnaring Bridge, or one with sufficiently powerful stand-alone threats (Thunderbreak Regent), equipment are unnecessary or best relegated to the sideboard.

About half-true. My argument was "Equip in a threat-dense deck." Another argument was "Ensnaring Bridge is terrible." It looks great on paper - and is powerful - but MtG wants you to hold answers in your hand. It plays against how you want to play the game in general. It's only really decent with Chandra x4 + Moggcatcher x4 - some version of Zac's deck. You get to still play answers at 0 cards. I agree Bridge decks don't want Equip.

Heck, I even played 4x Bridge with 4x Tezzeret AoB and 4x Jace TMS. It was still terrible.

Thunderbreak is a terrible card in this deck, IMO. It's vanilla, no card advantage, RR, and finishes slower (and is an extra mana) over Rabbles.

SSG should be a 4x in any build of this deck, and also happens to suit up well. I think it's a few points toward running equip, in most builds anyway. I hope we're gaining some insight into building this deck right-ah-now.

I do have a query about how to beat P Fire. With most of the CMC 3 guys, they all die to a single Fire, other than Hanweir Garrison. That just dies to 2, bleh. I have an idea how not to fold to P Fire, better than mulling into Blood Moon and watch it get FoW'd, but I wonder how other people deal with it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I realize TCDecks is not a true representation of the Legacy meta, or even the optimal build of a specific deck... BUT 19 out of the 22 most recent lists play 4 Ensnaring Bridge main deck despite it being a terrible card in Legacy.* :tongue:


And the best creature against Punishing Fire is Thunderbreak Regent. :cool:


*4 of those deck lists had three Ensnaring Bridge main with one in the sideboard. And one of the three without any main deck had 2 in the sideboard.

[frogger42]

I realize TCDecks is not a true representation of the Legacy meta, or even the optimal build of a specific deck... BUT 19 out of the 22 most recent lists play 4 Ensnaring Bridge main deck despite it being a terrible card in Legacy.* :tongue:


And the best creature against Punishing Fire is Thunderbreak Regent. :cool:


*4 of those deck lists had three Ensnaring Bridge main with one in the sideboard. And one of the three without any main deck had 2 in the sideboard.

I checked it out... and about 2/3 of those lists are from MTGO. I think that meta is just off-the-wall, and totally unrepresentative of paper magic - I think it's fair to dismiss them. Half of the remaining 3rd are in Japan - and they run Quicksilver Rebels, or whatever the Hill Giant is. I don't think it'd be any good in a paper, 'Merican meta. I think that leaves 3 decks in the last 20, for about 2 months. (Two builds - one deck is a repeat by the same guy.) 2 Bridges total in those 3 decks - both SB.

That sounds like a poor showing for the deck, overall. I think maybe we can do better. I think it's fair to stir the pot a bit.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I took this (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23648&iddeck=184325) version to a 4-0 win at my local weekly last Wednesday. My sideboard was different*, but the main deck was card-for-card.

Beat Merfolk, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver, and 4C Delver.



*Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Sudden Shock
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Zuran Orb
1 Phyrexian Revoker

[ZTurgeon]

I checked it out... and about 2/3 of those lists are from MTGO. I think that meta is just off-the-wall, and totally unrepresentative of paper magic - I think it's fair to dismiss them. Half of the remaining 3rd are in Japan - and they run Quicksilver Rebels, or whatever the Hill Giant is. I don't think it'd be any good in a paper, 'Merican meta. I think that leaves 3 decks in the last 20, for about 2 months. (Two builds - one deck is a repeat by the same guy.) 2 Bridges total in those 3 decks - both SB.

That sounds like a poor showing for the deck, overall. I think maybe we can do better. I think it's fair to stir the pot a bit.

Yes, if you ignore 95% of the results of any deck, then it will look bad.

[frogger42]

Yes, if you ignore 95% of the results of any deck, then it will look bad.

I'm not really sure what your argument is here. You didn't actually refute why I'm ignoring MTGO results - which are insane - and Japanese results - where foreign tourneys have shifted metas because of difficult access to the old cards. Same with MTGO results - bizarre access to important cards.

I squeaked in a 22nd of 70 (I think) this past weekend. Nothing to write home about... yet.

[Curby]

So no big red/dragon stompy/chandra stompy in the top64 at Vegas. Do we know what the highest finish for the deck there was?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm not really sure what your argument is here.
ZTurgeon can correct me if I'm wrong, but...

If you start with an unsupported premise (main deck Ensnaring Bridge builds are bad because Legacy) and then ignore 95% of the data that supports the opposite of that premise, then of course you will conclude that your original unsupported premise is accurate.


Look at what you are doing from a statistical standpoint:
You are given a data set of 40 entries. Unadjusted, this dataset supports that 'build X' is the highest performer.
You 'adjust' the data removing entries you feel are not truly representative. This leaves you with 5 entries and the new dataset supports that 'build y' is the highest performer.

Anytime your 'adjustment' removes a high majority of entries, your analysis is suspect and your conclusions are untrustworthy.

[ZTurgeon]

ZTurgeon can correct me if I'm wrong, but...

If you start with an unsupported premise (main deck Ensnaring Bridge builds are bad because Legacy) and then ignore 95% of the data that supports the opposite of that premise, then of course you will conclude that your original unsupported premise is accurate.


Look at what you are doing from a statistical standpoint:
You are given a data set of 40 entries. Unadjusted, this dataset supports that 'build X' is the highest performer.
You 'adjust' the data removing entries you feel are not truly representative. This leaves you with 5 entries and the new dataset supports that 'build y' is the highest performer.

Anytime your 'adjustment' removes a high majority of entries, your analysis is suspect and your conclusions are untrustworthy.

Exactly. Removal of data from a set ruins the set.

I can make up any excuse, founded or unfounded, to ignore any decks I want. It's not that hard. We could say that because Tabernacle is so expensive in paper, that it removes one of our best matchups. So therefore, we should ignore paper results because they aren't representing what should be seeing play.

Of course, this is lunacy. We are presented with a pile of data, and we should draw our conclusions from it. We should not ignore some of the data to suit the answer we already want.

You are effectively making a "one-sided argument" or deckstacking (the term, not the actual thing). You are walking into this going "I don't like Ensnaring Bridge" and then you are giving credit to the events that support your theory (large US events only) and then applying reasons why similar data is to be ignored (Japan and MTGO have different metagames). Regardless of if your reasons are true, your method of argument makes it impossible to argue against because you have tried to discredit all evidence that doesn't support your argument.

It's just bad science.

[Curby]

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and starts with our ultimate goal. To win, the best bet is to build a deck to attack a particular metagame. If a given metagame (MTGO) is weak to a given card (Bridge), it make sense to play that card in that meta (play Bridge on MTGO). The results show that running Bridge on MTGO is great. That's pretty clear, but it isn't the question at hand here.

Another useful question is how effective is Bridge in paper Legacy in North America? Well, there's a lack of results for NA, and small n makes for unreliable results. Let's evaluate from another perspective then.

Forget other Dragon Stompy decks and look at the metas. If there are concrete meta differences between MTGO and paper NA, then those differences can be evaluated with an eye towards the effectiveness of Bridge.

[frogger42]

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and starts with our ultimate goal. To win, the best bet is to build a deck to attack a particular metagame. If a given metagame (MTGO) is weak to a given card (Bridge), it make sense to play that card in that meta (play Bridge on MTGO). The results show that running Bridge on MTGO is great. That's pretty clear, but it isn't the question at hand here.

Another useful question is how effective is Bridge in paper Legacy in North America? Well, there's a lack of results for NA, and small n makes for unreliable results. Let's evaluate from another perspective then.

Forget other Dragon Stompy decks and look at the metas. If there are concrete meta differences between MTGO and paper NA, then those differences can be evaluated with an eye towards the effectiveness of Bridge.

^ All this.

You're going to play what you're going to play, and if you like Bridge, go for it. I offered as much reasoned insight why I don't - really, why I stopped running it. Something tells me no one in their right mind is taking Quicksilver Rebel or wtf it is to any reasonable tournament. They printed a card: Punishing Fire. IDK why Rebel seems to be a card online and in Japan, but yeah, good for them. As for North American large tourney results...

*Ben Affleck walks in* "Here comes the science."

We live in North America. Most of us here, anyway. Metas differ. Online, Europe, Pacific, these things matter. Go pack your Rebels for Japan, I guess. I'm not running that guy - ever. My deck, as it stands, is already weak enough to P Fire, which is any number of MUs that I lose.

I go into large North American tourneys. Weeklies are super skewed metas, especially mine. But yeah, if you like Bridge, go for it. I gave reasons for and against it. I don't feel like spelling them out again.

[Curby]

"Ensnaring Bridge is terrible." It looks great on paper - and is powerful - but MtG wants you to hold answers in your hand. It plays against how you want to play the game in general. It's only really decent with Chandra x4 + Moggcatcher x4 - some version of Zac's deck.

I'd like to look at this a bit more. Perhaps it's because I come from a Stax and D&T background, or I remember those times where some blue deck lost to storm despite a hand full of countermagic, or on some podcast where they said ANT's biggest enemy is neither discard nor countermagic but rather permanent-based hate (The Brainstorm Show perhaps?), or all the times *I* lost to Bridge, or because I was actually looking forward to playing a deck with Bridge, but I don't think permanent-based board control is necessarily so bad.

Having some answers from the hand/library is useful so the opponent cannot operate with perfect knowledge, but that's not entirely mutually exclusive with the idea of Bridge. It can be a good card even if it occasionally lets 2s and 1s through.

(Btw, I don't actually play this deck. I'm looking at building it though.)

[pinkfrosting]

^ All this.

You're going to play what you're going to play, and if you like Bridge, go for it. I offered as much reasoned insight why I don't - really, why I stopped running it. Something tells me no one in their right mind is taking Quicksilver Rebel or wtf it is to any reasonable tournament. They printed a card: Punishing Fire. IDK why Rebel seems to be a card online and in Japan, but yeah, good for them. As for North American large tourney results...

*Ben Affleck walks in* "Here comes the science."

We live in North America. Most of us here, anyway. Metas differ. Online, Europe, Pacific, these things matter. Go pack your Rebels for Japan, I guess. I'm not running that guy - ever. My deck, as it stands, is already weak enough to P Fire, which is any number of MUs that I lose.

I go into large North American tourneys. Weeklies are super skewed metas, especially mine. But yeah, if you like Bridge, go for it. I gave reasons for and against it. I don't feel like spelling them out again.

If you have a ton of aggro loam in your meta I can see disliking quicksmith, but loam is not particularly strong right now. Lands is very strong, but we absolutely wreck lands a fairly large percentage of the time regardless of what threats we run. Rebel is a 5 damage clock against combo and a persistent shock effect against delver, d&t, elves, and any other creature decks which heavily populate the meta in paper and online right now. He also fits the criteria of dealing damage to the opponents face through a bridge.

I play in the Seattle area, a healthy paper meta with a great regular tornament turnout, and I can say that bridge is a pretty effective card right now. I can't speak for everywhere though, tool your deck to whatever your local meta is. When most decks win with creatures though it's quite good. I also played painter for 3 years with 2-3 bridge main deck and can say that even during the miracles era it was a very strong lock piece, and I'd say it's even stronger now that the paper meta is shifting towards mostly delver and 4C midrange/control.

I would also disagree with your assertion regarding reactive cards being better than proactive prison pieces. Unless your meta is years behind there is a LOT of deathrite decks, and deathrite decks universally run some number of therapy/hymn/thoughtseize. In addition two of the most popular combo decks run discard as protection, and at least one control variant (grixis) as well. Rather than sit on reactive spells I'd rather just do what our deck does better than most decks in legacy, which is vomit out prison pieces and beaters before they can take apart our hand.

[Karhumies]

One way to look at MD Ensnaring Bridge: it has "three modes", one of which has been chosen by our opponent by their 60 card deckbuilding before the tournament starts:

Mode 1) Win the game on the spot upon resolution, we can move on to game 2 (e.g. some Reanimator and Sneaky Show lists without MD bounce/decay or Plan B Omniscience).

Mode 2) Requires time & resources to deal with, e.g. digging for and resolving Abrupt Decay, Council's Judgment, Engineered Explosives, Qasali Pridemage. Chances are, the opponent is running less than 4 of the solution cards in their MD, and if we have a Chalice @ 1, it makes it very difficult for the opponent to filter through their deck unless they have tutoring (e.g. Green Sun's Zenith). However, even efficient tutoring or casting an appropriate spell from hand will cause them to spend time & resources, which is typically more restrictive than the investment of 3 colorless mana + 1 card we put into casting the Bridge. Meaning that we are likely to gain either a small or substantial tempo advantage by disrupting the opponent's flow.

Mode 3) The opponent can completely ignore it. Either they don't care about the combat step (e.g. Tendrils of Agony), their creatures have 0-2 attack and we can't reduce our hand size in time (e.g. t1 Empty the Warrens tokens, swarm of t2 elves), or they have a Plan B which does not require the combat step (e.g. Jace TMS ultimate).

If you have knowledge about your (FLGS) metagame, you know roughly what percentage of opposing decks are "choosing Mode 1), Mode 2), Mode 3)" -> you roughly know the odds of running MD Bridge instead of another MD card. If you are going into an unknown metagame, MD Bridge = gambling with a high variance card. Some people love high stakes "win on the spot" high variance cards (see the Modern deck "Free win red"); others want to minimize the variance and run a 50-50 against the wide field decks.

Personally, I believe that we are running a bunch of high variance "oops I win" cards already (Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void, potentially Magus of the Moon, possibly Trinisphere, possibly Gemstone Caverns) -> I guess it comes down to personal preference whether you want to "go all-in" and add the MD Bridges (or MD Trinispheres if you think that is a better local meta call) into the mix as well, or whether you want to "downplay" the variance. However, my personal opinion is that if you want to downplay the variance and have 50-50 against the field instead of "accidentally stealing wins", you should probably be running a FoW tempo deck instead of Monored stompy.

[tescrin]

I checked it out... and about 2/3 of those lists are from MTGO. I think that meta is just off-the-wall, and totally unrepresentative of paper magic - I think it's fair to dismiss them.

I thought that too and then i started playing MTGO. Now I know that it's actually 100% true holy balls.

In 18 matches I've played 3 different people on Enchantress, 4 chalice decks (all different), and a few very random brews. It's pretty surreal.

That said, I've been playing in the Tournament practice section; so I don't know if the tournaments will be weird.

[Karhumies]

Something tells me no one in their right mind is taking Quicksilver Rebel or wtf it is to any reasonable tournament. They printed a card: Punishing Fire. IDK why Rebel seems to be a card online and in Japan, but yeah, good for them. As for North American large tourney results...

Quicksmith Rebel is effectively "Monored stompy's own Punishing Fire". It allows us to kill an opposing creature with 2 or less toughness every single turn, and we are also allowed to direct that damage into Planeswalkers (e.g. kill Liliana after -2 without losing a card in the process) and to the opponent's face. The best part is that the damage is coming from a colorless source, so we get to kill nasty stuff from Death & Taxes like Mirran Crusader and Mother of Runes, unless they respond to the ETB trigger by Swordsing the Quicksmith Rebel. In a D&T heavy meta, the Quicksmith Rebel has been pure gold for me.

Not a great card against Lands and Loam decks, though, but those decks are super rare in my local paper meta.

[frogger42]

Quicksmith Rebel is effectively "Monored stompy's own Punishing Fire". It allows us to kill an opposing creature with 2 or less toughness every single turn, and we are also allowed to direct that damage into Planeswalkers (e.g. kill Liliana after -2 without losing a card in the process) and to the opponent's face. The best part is that the damage is coming from a colorless source, so we get to kill nasty stuff from Death & Taxes like Mirran Crusader and Mother of Runes, unless they respond to the ETB trigger by Swordsing the Quicksmith Rebel. In a D&T heavy meta, the Quicksmith Rebel has been pure gold for me.

Not a great card against Lands and Loam decks, though, but those decks are super rare in my local paper meta.

My problem with Quicksmith is that it's super-dependent on your having Chalice @ 1 on the field. Or not to run into a P Fire deck. And if you don't, you get tempo-ed out hard. REALLY HARD - to the point that you get Time Walked and likely lose. If Rebel made the artifact permanently shock, it'd be great, but it doesn't. Only as long as Rebel is around.

If you're on the Bridge plan, it's not 5 dmg / turn.

I lost to Bridge with P Fire at my weekly. RW Painter got me - he had Welder, Painter, and Chandra (with Bridge out, Grindstone in the GY). He cast Daretti 1, and then beat me in the next few turns. Go go Bridge!

Playing with P Fire in my other deck, I smash Stompy strategies. Esp everything with 2 toughness. It's the single card that wins me most games. Unless you run all Dragons, which are super slow, all your threats will die to the Fire. The toughest deck in my meta is a FoW + P Fire deck. It runs other major card advantage engines, but it's the Fire I can't get past. FoW my Moon, then burn every creature out. I have no other threats he needs to Force. Which is why I'm asking what other options I have to beat P Fire. Hazoret is the only one I can think of - well, there's one other awful card - but Hazoret is super hard to get online when you only cast 1 spell a turn.

[Curby]

So Chalice for stopping P Fire itself and Moon effects and postboard yardhate for stopping recursion aren't enough? Trinisphere should crimp FoW and even tax P Fire and their other spells.

[ZTurgeon]

My problem with Quicksmith is that it's super-dependent on your having Chalice @ 1 on the field. Or not to run into a P Fire deck. And if you don't, you get tempo-ed out hard. REALLY HARD - to the point that you get Time Walked and likely lose. If Rebel made the artifact permanently shock, it'd be great, but it doesn't. Only as long as Rebel is around.

If you're on the Bridge plan, it's not 5 dmg / turn.

I lost to Bridge with P Fire at my weekly. RW Painter got me - he had Welder, Painter, and Chandra (with Bridge out, Grindstone in the GY). He cast Daretti 1, and then beat me in the next few turns. Go go Bridge!

Playing with P Fire in my other deck, I smash Stompy strategies. Esp everything with 2 toughness. It's the single card that wins me most games. Unless you run all Dragons, which are super slow, all your threats will die to the Fire. The toughest deck in my meta is a FoW + P Fire deck. It runs other major card advantage engines, but it's the Fire I can't get past. FoW my Moon, then burn every creature out. I have no other threats he needs to Force. Which is why I'm asking what other options I have to beat P Fire. Hazoret is the only one I can think of - well, there's one other awful card - but Hazoret is super hard to get online when you only cast 1 spell a turn.

Truthfully man, I don't get it. I can not tell you the last time I lost to a punishing fire deck. They are all really easy for stompy lists. You have moon and chalice for 2, which is more than any other creature deck in legacy. Additionally, you could have threats like chandra and Haz that just ignore it. I do not get your obsession with a card that is in like 3% of decks.

[zangoasyl]

Which is why I'm asking what other options I have to beat P Fire.

You are playing a deck which has the main game plan of feasting on your meta. If punishing fire is a problem in your meta adapt to it. Play cards like Hanweir Garrison, Chandra, maybe even flamespeaker (beware, rr is harsh) to adapt to this threat...

[pinkfrosting]

My problem with Quicksmith is that it's super-dependent on your having Chalice @ 1 on the field. Or not to run into a P Fire deck. And if you don't, you get tempo-ed out hard. REALLY HARD - to the point that you get Time Walked and likely lose. If Rebel made the artifact permanently shock, it'd be great, but it doesn't. Only as long as Rebel is around.

If you're on the Bridge plan, it's not 5 dmg / turn.

I lost to Bridge with P Fire at my weekly. RW Painter got me - he had Welder, Painter, and Chandra (with Bridge out, Grindstone in the GY). He cast Daretti 1, and then beat me in the next few turns. Go go Bridge!

Playing with P Fire in my other deck, I smash Stompy strategies. Esp everything with 2 toughness. It's the single card that wins me most games. Unless you run all Dragons, which are super slow, all your threats will die to the Fire. The toughest deck in my meta is a FoW + P Fire deck. It runs other major card advantage engines, but it's the Fire I can't get past. FoW my Moon, then burn every creature out. I have no other threats he needs to Force. Which is why I'm asking what other options I have to beat P Fire. Hazoret is the only one I can think of - well, there's one other awful card - but Hazoret is super hard to get online when you only cast 1 spell a turn.

There's a reason he's a one-of in most lists. You're right, he's best in a board state where you've already got a few lock pieces and an artifact down. Running one means he's less likely to be in the opener and ideally gets drawn later to snipe threats and be protected by chalice/moon.

Against ANT I don't even play bridge so he remains a 5 damage clock. Against reanimator or show I can usually manage to control my hand size so that he can get a few swings in.

When the bridge belongs to your opponent, who can manage their hand size, and your suite of threats isn't designed to work through bridge, yeah you will lose to it. Also 4x confluence is insane against painter, you can just blow up their entire board.

So you've criticized us for making assumptions about card value based on the online meta or foreign tournament results, but it's clear to me now that you're mostly upset about your hyper-local meta with jank blue p-fire strategies and are making blanket statements about card values based on the 20~ people you play at your weekly.

I am aware of a few variations on the blue fire deck. In the 500 or so matches I've played on MTGO since the top ban I've probably seen it 3 times. It is a bad matchup, the builds I've seen also run a healthy number of basics and one build (piloted by ItIsUnfair) ran 2 maindeck EE. I usually make resolving chalice on 2 my main priority. Between red spells, basics, p-fire, and jace I'd just chalk it up to a bad matchup we can't do much about. Fortunately outside of wherever you are though it's not a big thing in the meta right now and I wouldn't alter my deck to beat it. Between the various UR strategies and unexpected miracles I've been running Boil in the side with great success. I absolutely blew out the guy on this list last time with it, although I have no idea how many islands your opponent is running in his version.

[Karhumies]

I've never seen a P Fire deck running FoW. This is the first I hear that such a niche deck exists.

Normally,
Grove of the Burnwillows -> Blood Moon
Punishing Fire & Life from the Loam -> Chalice @ 2
Wasteland recursion -> Blood Moon
FoW -> red blasts (normally poor synergy with Chalice 1 but it seems like in this MU you want Chalice on 2), potentially 1of Cavern of Souls for uncounterable creatures.

If the list you mentioned is running also basics + Abrupt Decay (redirect effects or Spellskite are super narrow options) or Pernicious Deed (Revoker would be our go-to answer since we don't want to run Needle due to Chalice, but P Fire makes this a bad plan), I would just consider it super bad MU not worth dedicated SB slots because it's a niche deck, 1-2 dedicated cards will not be enough and it's not worth the sb slots to dedicate more to obscure MUs. Plan: dodge that guy in the round pairings.

[pinkfrosting]

I've never seen a P Fire deck running FoW. This is the first I hear that such a niche deck exists.

Had to do some digging but I found the exact list by ItIsUnfair (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/643329#paper) I played against about a month or two ago.

Not a bad idea, P-fire is a great card, but it does feel like the deck is trying to jam way too many things into one list. To truly judge it's power level I'd have to test it myself in a variety of matchups. It's pretty great against red stompy though.

But yeah, it's very niche, not something I'd worry about facing at any large event, unless it gains some traction in the next few months. Even the deck designer just switched back to miracles when it became apparent that it was a tiered deck still.

[Karhumies]

Had to do some digging but I found the exact list by ItIsUnfair (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/643329#paper) I played against about a month or two ago.

Not a bad idea, P-fire is a great card, but it does feel like the deck is trying to jam way too many things into one list. To truly judge it's power level I'd have to test it myself in a variety of matchups. It's pretty great against red stompy though.

But yeah, it's very niche, not something I'd worry about facing at any large event, unless it gains some traction in the next few months. Even the deck designer just switched back to miracles when it became apparent that it was a tiered deck still.

Possibly the only deck in Legacy which runs 2x MD Dack Fayden(!) to steal our Chalice of the Void and 1x MD Engineered Explosives with access to 3 colors to blow up practically our whole board.

Plan your deck against Stoneforge Mystic blade control decks instead of this list. As you said, even the creator of the deck decided to "go mainstream".

[ZTurgeon]

Possibly the only deck in Legacy which runs 2x MD Dack Fayden(!) to steal our Chalice of the Void and 1x MD Engineered Explosives with access to 3 colors to blow up practically our whole board.

Plan your deck against Stoneforge Mystic blade control decks instead of this list. As you said, even the creator of the deck decided to "go mainstream".

Dack Stealing chalice doesn't really do much. If anything, its better on their side of the board because they can't trigger check you.

[frogger42]

Dack Stealing chalice doesn't really do much. If anything, its better on their side of the board because they can't trigger check you.

This is true. He's better off stealing a Mox (or in my case, SoFI, ow).

I'm not worried about that one deck. I don't mind writing off that MU. I'm worried about the unlimited removal strategy, though - Lands, Jund (super rare, yes), Punishing Maverick (which I think will get a significant uptick with the Green Crucible of Worlds), everything with Grove in it. I brought out that FoW + P Fire deck because I only have Blood Moon against him - and he's got 4x FoW, possibly 2 Counterspells. I can't overload his Forces with any other threats he needs to stop. Force Blood Moon, everything else he can deal with. Several decks are in a similar position - Lands post-SB, and the others I mentioned are even worse. Stop Moon, and everything else gets cleaned up with 1 P Fire.

I faced P Fire 2 out of 7 matches last weekend. I lost both, shockingly.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What's the graveyard hate in your sideboard looking like?

P Fire is susceptible to grave-hate and if a copy makes winning impossible, it is worth boarding in.

[frogger42]

What's the graveyard hate in your sideboard looking like?

P Fire is susceptible to grave-hate and if a copy makes winning impossible, it is worth boarding in.

It was Leyline of the Void. I figure Reanimator, either version, was going to be a blow-out, and that's the best way for me to fight it.

I thought about it, and if I switch to Faerie Macabre - which is obv weaker vs Reanimator and Dredge - I have a card to side in vs P Fire. It's terrible for me to bring in Leyline and try to mull into it just for Fire. But I can topdeck a Faerie vs that card, which should be fine (I hope). And I'm going to switch out the Sulfur Elementals for 3x Sword of Light and Shadow - still for DnT, but also to recur the Faeries, too. I think that's my gameplan right now.

On that note, I do not have 3x Sword of Light and Shadow, hahaha... nuts.

[Karhumies]

I thought about it, and if I switch to Faerie Macabre - which is obv weaker vs Reanimator

As a long term Reanimator pilot, I wouldn't say obviously weaker.

Against Brw animator:
The big downside of Macabre is that it can be spot discarded from your hand, unlike Leyline.

However, if they decide to go off t1 on the play without spot discard (no extra card for unmask, no mana for seize, did not draw either) out of fear of your t1 chalice on 1, you can respond to their first reanimation spell with Macabre, even through a Chancellor trigger on the draw, which results in them spending a lot of resources for nothing, possibly putting them into topdeck mode with a blank wear // tear in hand. The bad part of the deal is, those "blank" wear/tears are going to be hitting your lock pieces instead.

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you begin the game with Leyline and they have no response to it, they can still t1 spot discard a creature from you, reanimate that and start attacking with it. Rabblemaster, Dragons and Sin Prodder are decent clocks. So even when the leyline is active, the opponent can have "outs" depending on what you have left in.

[frogger42]

As a long term Reanimator pilot, I wouldn't say obviously weaker.

Against Brw animator:
The big downside of Macabre is that it can be spot discarded from your hand, unlike Leyline.

This is mainly what I was considering, why I figured Faerie was weaker than Leyline. But I haven't seen a W splash strangely, which totally makes sense for all the hate.


However, if they decide to go off t1 on the play without spot discard (no extra card for unmask, no mana for seize, did not draw either) out of fear of your t1 chalice on 1, you can respond to their first reanimation spell with Macabre, even through a Chancellor trigger on the draw, which results in them spending a lot of resources for nothing, possibly putting them into topdeck mode with a blank wear // tear in hand. The bad part of the deal is, those "blank" wear/tears are going to be hitting your lock pieces instead.

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you begin the game with Leyline and they have no response to it, they can still t1 spot discard a creature from you, reanimate that and start attacking with it. Rabblemaster, Dragons and Sin Prodder are decent clocks. So even when the leyline is active, the opponent can have "outs" depending on what you have left in.

Yeah, blowing my opponent out of the water with a single Faerie vs that it can be Thoughtseized seems like some give-and-take. If I resolve a Faerie activation, you're right, I probably do win.
I don't like counting on my opponent to misplay, but I've seen the vast majority of Reanimator players hold onto Reanimate solely for their own fatties. You're right, I probably would've lost the 3 Rabble game if the Rean player hit one of my own dead Rabbles instead of Exhuming it and his Griselbees. But Reanimate is such a weird card for them, and add to the fact that they have to calculate combat damage with cards they don't even play in their deck, that most players don't end up seeing - or taking - that option.

But I think you bring up really good points about Faerie vs Leyline, and the "pressure" I put on Reanimator by just running Chalice in the deck. In that MU, it might be 6 of one, half a dozen of the other; vs the White splash, it's likely just better, and not get 2-for-1'ed.

I just started running Dragon Stompy for 3-4 weeks, even with having owned all the cards since forever. Thanks for the insights vs Reanimator. Generally my Stompy and Stax decks tend to lose to cheating fatties into play.

[frogger42]

This is my non-Bridge build:

4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
4 Zoetic Cavern

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dead // Gone
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Hazoret the Fervent

2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Fiery Confluence

SB:
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Confusion in the Ranks
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Yeah, I know, Confusion in the Ranks. It's mostly for Show and Tell strategies, obv. But it's castable, and can steal Elves' fatties, including Progenitus, which I just lose to. Having it castable, I have the potential to just bring it in vs RandomJank.dec.
And I really like Revoker vs Death and Taxes, as it's also a colorless dude to suit up through a Mom. I can name Jitte and still get there. Speaking of which, Zoetic Cavern is super hot vs DnT, too. Which is just hilarious.

FYI, I recently cut 2 Chandra, 2 Haz for the Dead // Gone. RR is sometimes hard without a Moon effect - but Fiery Confluence has won me too many games not to play (esp when it kills SoFI and Jitte). And Gone could shore up some of the unfair MUs - Marit Lage and Reanimator now - as well as random Goblins and Burn and aggro.

Have at it! Let me know what you think about the list, where I could improve, MUs I could shore up by tinkering with this list. Thanks!

[Karhumies]

I don't like counting on my opponent to misplay, but I've seen the vast majority of Reanimator players hold onto Reanimate solely for their own fatties.
Slight addition: it's not only Reanimate. It's also Animate Dead. In other words, 8/12 of their animation spells can target stuff in your yard. Exhume is a miss.

For putting your creatures into the yard, Thoughtseize and Unmask are hits. Collective Brutality is a miss. In fact, Collective Brutality has terrible modes against Monored stompy since 1) stompy does not run relevant instants or sorceries 2) stompy starts with lock pieces instead of starting with 1-2 toughness creatures. The recent trend in reanimator has been to make Brutality a 3-4 of in the MD due to MD DRS. This actually improves Monored stompy's success rate in the MU.

Also, talking about lines of play inexperienced Reanimator players might not be able to see: Reanimator vs Dredge, g1. Reanimator player can Reanimate (for 5 life) or Animate Dead an opposing Golgari Grave-Troll from the opponent's graveyard as 0/0 to die to get rid of Dredge's bridges. If you take a pilot with enough skill to see this line of play, they can also see the damage output of t1 animating your Rabblemaster.

[frogger42]

Slight addition: it's not only Reanimate. It's also Animate Dead. In other words, 8/12 of their animation spells can target stuff in your yard. Exhume is a miss.

Ah, true dat. Forgot about Animate Dead. I think they tend to run 2-3 of those usually, but I'm not super up to date on the list.


For putting your creatures into the yard, Thoughtseize and Unmask are hits. Collective Brutality is a miss. In fact, Collective Brutality has terrible modes against Monored stompy since 1) stompy does not run relevant instants or sorceries 2) stompy starts with lock pieces instead of starting with 1-2 toughness creatures. The recent trend in reanimator has been to make Brutality a 3-4 of in the MD due to MD DRS. This actually improves Monored stompy's success rate in the MU.

This is also true. Brutality usually whiffs against me. On 9 games vs BR Reanimator, he saw I ran Dead // Gone right away in G1, so he kept having to Brutalize my hand every time to clear it of that crummy split card. I only bounced one fatty with it (yeah, out of 9 games), and I ended up discarding it once, maybe twice; but he must've whiffed 3-4 more times in those games just to make sure my hand was clear.

The main thing I don't like about Dead // Gone so far is it doesn't kill SFM through a Chalice @ 1. But I guess I can bounce the Germ token and tempo the funk out of the player. It's also a nice way to kill / bounce Mom, which Confluence can't do. It's not bad, but admittedly not super powerful... IDK, I'm still *split* on playing the card here.

[frogger42]

Stream of the deck, though I sided out 7 Moons and 4 Chalice. Best kinda playing. At 1hr 30 min.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/156916767

[Koby]

Also, talking about lines of play inexperienced Reanimator players might not be able to see: Reanimator vs Dredge, g1. Reanimator player can Reanimate (for 5 life) or Animate Dead an opposing Golgari Grave-Troll from the opponent's graveyard as 0/0 to die to get rid of Dredge's bridges. If you take a pilot with enough skill to see this line of play, they can also see the damage output of t1 animating your Rabblemaster.

Unfortunately, this isn't true. The GGT dies and goes to its owners graveyard, which does trigger Bridge from Below - but only to make 2/2 zombie tokens; rather than exile itself.

[Karhumies]

Unfortunately, this isn't true. The GGT dies and goes to its owners graveyard, which does trigger Bridge from Below - but only to make 2/2 zombie tokens; rather than exile itself.
You are correct. It's not a "dies" trigger, it's "enters the graveyard" trigger. My FLGS Dredge player has had Japanese Bridges for too long and I should re-read all cards in English before posting incorrect memorizations about the cards.

[rlesko]

What match ups is blood moon bad / lack luster against? (Besides burn)

[Curby]

If we take that the role of Moon effects is to lock out a game, then mostly single-color decks with Aether Vial are probably bad for Moons. E.g. Merfolk and D&T. Not sure if Goblins runs Vials still, but them too if so. Anyone else?

[jandax]

Tribal decks and control decks that aim for the long game are our troublesome match ups

[Curby]

Also anything that runs its own Moon effects is probably built to run reasonably smoothly even if we land ours first.

[frogger42]

It's tough to tell where 8-Moon decks fail. Can be weird, but if there's a matchup where Chalice and Moon are weak, you generally lose it.

Generally, I've found its strongest MUs to be Delver, Elves, Eldrazi, even Infect. DnT is about average, yes they run Plains, but you also want to keep Moons to shut down their mana-denial; Lands is probably above-average, depending if they have a Punishing Fire in hand to take out your Magus; and Topless Miracles is probably above average, too, given that you have Chalice, and Moon shuts down their fetching, too.

Burn is below average (very draw-dependent). I haven't played Merfolk, but I imagine it's horrible, and Goblins is even worse, esp if you don't run equip. Cheaty decks are bad: Sneak and Show / Omni Show are bad MUs, as well as BR and UB Reanimator - they're too quick for Chalice to lock them out generally. And anything without lands is obnoxious, too, esp Manaless - and even Landed - Dredge.

The deck's playstyle is pretty weird. You're all-in on T1, and if you make the wrong play, or play the wrong card in your MU, you often don't recover. It's far from a perfect open-field deck - it's obviously very meta.

And the other awkward thing you want to note is that your own Moons help your manabase - so you don't sac City of Traitors and stop taking damage from Ancient Tomb. So when you side them all out... ouch.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What match ups is blood moon bad / lack luster against? (Besides burn)
Blood Moon is really only *bad* against mono-red decks (Burn, Goblins, Painter).

The problem is that it can be lack-luster against a slew of decks. Lack-luster in the sense that it may prove to be a road-block, but often the decks can ignore or power through a moon.
Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Nic-Fit, Pox, and Show+Tell decks can get caught by moon, but if the game goes long enough the moon will end up not mattering.

Against D+T and Merfolk, you often want to keep at least half your moon effects in because Ports, Wastelands, and Mutavaults, can beat you. Against Merfolk, I'll keep in Magus and cut Moon because their removal options are not fantastic. Against D+T I try to keep a split because they can deal with Magus pretty easily. Nic-Fit and Pox are pretty fringe, but Moon effects can be cut pretty easily. Show and Tell in all it's forms is a bad matchup for reasons other than Blood Moon...

[korstructure]

I played this exact list from the Top 8 of the 89 Player "Known Magician's Legacy" in Japan. It included two spicy cards, Bottled Cloister and Null Brooch. Both of those cards were completely awesome.

Find the list here (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15949&d=298173&f=LE).

On Bottled Cloister: Someone let me know that Bottled Cloister does have some pedigree - coming from Vintage Sea Stompy lists of yore. And you know what? It was great. Not a lock piece or a threat, but something closer to Chandra - it gives us inevitability. Yes, of course it combos with Ensnaring Bridge and that's great. But it's also one of the few ways we have to generate value over those long, belabored turns of having our opponent in a lock. Again, similar to Chandra.

On Null Brooch: Out of the board, this is a must-counter lock piece for a deck like New Miracles or other slow control decks. In practice, it actually just means that our opponent needs to find redundant copies of their Disenchant effects (Wear/Tear, Council's Judgment, etc). Good card.

Also, be careful, I guess ANT decks now have room to play Hurkyl's Recalls (in place of Abrupt Decay) out of the SB... Learned that the hard way.

Furthermore, as Sean Brown pointed out in his article, the addition of cards like these supplants the aggro elements of Rabblemaster and Sin Prodder (which Bottled Cloister completely trounced in wowing me, by the way) and moves Dragon Stompy to a decidedly PRISON deck. I did some thinking on WHY Dragon Stompy can do this now (whereas it couldn't before) and I think it's exclusively because of the threat that Chandra, Torch of Defiance is. She's added an angle to the deck that was previously unseen - versatility, card advantage, and inevitability - all wrapped up in a hard-to-remove threat (especially behind an Ensnaring Bridge). I truly believe that eliminating those random proactive cards is the way of the future for Dragon Stompy. Again, this is enabled by the effectiveness and efficiency of Chandra. Instead, I believe we should focus on creating the best possible prison deck.

Would love to hear other people's experiences or opinions of these cards and the general direction of Dragon Stompy as a prison deck, eschewing those proactive elements.

[rlesko]

Basically just trying to determine if there are enough match ups where going "moon-less" is viable / preferred...it doesn't seem like it though. Seems like burn, Show&Derp, merfolk, and goblins are all match ups where blood moon is lackluster. Nevertheless, sounds like my sideboard SHOULD be able to accommodate these 8 cards out.

Something I've noticed though is that chalice is rarely "bad" in any match up. For example, in 4C loam its pretty much chalice on 1 98% of the time, chalice on 0 2% of the time. This deck can happily play chalice on 0, 1, or 2 (shit, even 3 in very fringe situations).

I'm playing bridge main too so I'm definitely more "prison" than "stompy".

I'm starting off with 4 faerie, 4 thorn / sphere, 3-4 revoker, 3 MISC.

[onemancannon]

Are there any RW Painter players that have made the switch to this moon variant?

I'm asking because I'd like to try splashing white. Granted there is no combo finish like Painter but white opens up more possibilities though it requires a weaker manabase and the number of moxen will have to be toyed with. On that note, I'm hating Chrome Mox more and more as we move into Stax territory with Bottled Cloister, Ensnaring Bridge, and even Null Brooch. We don't run enough land to push Mox Diamond and Mox Opal would require artifact lands in addition to other moxen. Perhaps Boros signet could help?

On to the white splash:
Ajani Vengeant - All three abilities are relevant, more useful than just Armageddon but unfortunately is not a win con.
Nahiri, the Harbinger - The first two abilities are helpful, but without a bomb to search for, the tutor is useless.
Cast Out - This cycling removal doesn't come with the downside randomness of Chaos warp and 3:w: is out of Abrupt Decay range.
There's also the option for 1:w: hatebears like Leonin Arbiter.
At this point you start approaching :w: :w: territory with things like Moat, Wrath of God, or Leyline of Sanctity and even without testing I believe these to be a stretch.

I'm more interested in taking this deck in a different direction rather than continue to add pages of card selection debate to a meta specific deck. I've considered :u: for dack fayden or :b: for daretti, ingenious iconoclast. Ultimately, I feel that RWx MoonWalkers (Yup, I'm taking credit for the name RIGHT now! :cool:) would just be a worse Tezz control deck.

RW MOONWALKERS
Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Plateau

3 Chrome Mox
3 Lotus Petal

Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Planeswalkers
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Stuff
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
3 fiery confluence
3 cast out

Depending on the meta, some number of Trinisphere would bounce in and out of the board.

Feel free to attack this with fury :laugh:!

[frogger42]

Are there any RW Painter players that have made the switch to this moon variant?

I'm asking because I'd like to try splashing white. Granted there is no combo finish like Painter but white opens up more possibilities though it requires a weaker manabase and the number of moxen will have to be toyed with. On that note, I'm hating Chrome Mox more and more as we move into Stax territory with Bottled Cloister, Ensnaring Bridge, and even Null Brooch. We don't run enough land to push Mox Diamond and Mox Opal would require artifact lands in addition to other moxen. Perhaps Boros signet could help?

On to the white splash:
Ajani Vengeant - All three abilities are relevant, more useful than just Armageddon but unfortunately is not a win con.
Nahiri, the Harbinger - The first two abilities are helpful, but without a bomb to search for, the tutor is useless.
Cast Out - This cycling removal doesn't come with the downside randomness of Chaos warp and 3:w: is out of Abrupt Decay range.
There's also the option for 1:w: hatebears like Leonin Arbiter.
At this point you start approaching :w: :w: territory with things like Moat, Wrath of God, or Leyline of Sanctity and even without testing I believe these to be a stretch.

I'm more interested in taking this deck in a different direction rather than continue to add pages of card selection debate to a meta specific deck. I've considered :u: for dack fayden or :b: for daretti, ingenious iconoclast. Ultimately, I feel that RWx MoonWalkers (Yup, I'm taking credit for the name RIGHT now! :cool:) would just be a worse Tezz control deck.

RW MOONWALKERS
Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
3 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Plateau

3 Chrome Mox
3 Lotus Petal

Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Planeswalkers
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Stuff
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
3 fiery confluence
3 cast out

Depending on the meta, some number of Trinisphere would bounce in and out of the board.

Feel free to attack this with fury :laugh:!

My friend runs a RW Stompy Moon deck. W is mostly for SFM, and otherwise it's similar to my mono R stompy deck. Watching him play it, WW is way out of range, and sometimes you're forced to cut yourself off W with a T1 Moon. The manabase is also wonky, and runs more lands than a deck should - mostly the 4 basic plains extra he needs.

We've been talking a bit about a 4 color Dack Fayden/ Punishing Fire list on here, and I've built a Dack Stax deck also with P Fire. No offense, but I've performed much better with it than with Stompy. But Dack Stax is Moonless, and doesn't lock your opponent out. Just tons of Card Advantage and cheaty stuff. Not sure if you're interested, very different playstyle.

Your decklist is way too high on cmc4. One Thalia, and you're out. I like stompy more, mostly because the CMC is reasonable and under control - most cards can be cmc3.

A high cmc also makes Bridge fairly ineffective. Super super hard to dump your hand. And you'd feel awful dumping 3 PW'ers to LED just to lock out with Bridge, yikes.

[TLK]

My friend runs a RW Stompy Moon deck. W is mostly for SFM, and otherwise it's similar to my mono R stompy deck. Watching him play it, WW is way out of range, and sometimes you're forced to cut yourself off W with a T1 Moon. The manabase is also wonky, and runs more lands than a deck should - mostly the 4 basic plains extra he needs.

We've been talking a bit about a 4 color Dack Fayden/ Punishing Fire list on here, and I've built a Dack Stax deck also with P Fire. No offense, but I've performed much better with it than with Stompy. But Dack Stax is Moonless, and doesn't lock your opponent out. Just tons of Card Advantage and cheaty stuff. Not sure if you're interested, very different playstyle.

Your decklist is way too high on cmc4. One Thalia, and you're out. I like stompy more, mostly because the CMC is reasonable and under control - most cards can be cmc3.

A high cmc also makes Bridge fairly ineffective. Super super hard to dump your hand. And you'd feel awful dumping 3 PW'ers to LED just to lock out with Bridge, yikes.

Mind directing me to the Dack Stax list?

[frogger42]

Mind directing me to the Dack Stax list?

Just pm'd you. It's pretty fun.

[pinkfrosting]

I played a RW version with Ajani and SFM as the only white cards. 2 basic plains 4 Mesa 4 plateau.

It solves two huge problems with the deck. A good utility card that controls our opponents access to basic lands while still providing utility in other matchups (ajani) and adding a high impact two-drop that continues to generate value in later turns (SFM).

It does introduce some problems though, which is bigger vulnerability to wasteland and trying to generate W under a moon. We so often want to land moon turn one or two that fetching plains and delaying is counterintuitive. Chrome mox tapping for white means usually pitching a high value card as well.

I felt like the build had a ton of potential, took it to several 3-2 and 4-1 finishes. I couldn't find a mana base I liked though. There were too many games where I was stuck with uncastable white cards in hand. If someone can experiment and find a build that reliably makes W I'd definitely go back to testing it.

[pinkfrosting]

Would love to hear other people's experiences or opinions of these cards and the general direction of Dragon Stompy as a prison deck, eschewing those proactive elements.

On the more prison oriented list, I think sorcerous spyglass from ixalan shows a ton of promise. Pithing needle has the obvious anti-synergy with chalice, and revoker, which more traditional versions of this deck used to run, is really bad in certain matchups because of fiery confluence. Legacy is also very removal heavy at the moment with most metas seeing combo on the decline. This card seems crazy powerful turn one with sol lands. We can look at their hand and name a fetch to shut them off fetching a basic, turns off DRS since his third ability isn't considered a mana ability, deals with walkers, sneak attack, and provides valuable sequencing information.

Even if we could run needle through chalice this card is miles better. Being able to look at their hand we can't really "whiff," even if they have nothing in their hand to name we can identify their deck and name the best activated ability.

[Karhumies]

I felt like the build had a ton of potential, took it to several 3-2 and 4-1 finishes. I couldn't find a mana base I liked though. There were too many games where I was stuck with uncastable white cards in hand. If someone can experiment and find a build that reliably makes W I'd definitely go back to testing it.

Have you tested Manamorphose, Eternal Dragon or Mox Diamond? The problem is, you don't want to run multiple fixers but you want to draw into them reliably.

[frogger42]

On the more prison oriented list, I think sorcerous spyglass from ixalan shows a ton of promise. Pithing needle has the obvious anti-synergy with chalice, and revoker, which more traditional versions of this deck used to run, is really bad in certain matchups because of fiery confluence. Legacy is also very removal heavy at the moment with most metas seeing combo on the decline. This card seems crazy powerful turn one with sol lands. We can look at their hand and name a fetch to shut them off fetching a basic, turns off DRS since his third ability isn't considered a mana ability, deals with walkers, sneak attack, and provides valuable sequencing information.

Even if we could run needle through chalice this card is miles better. Being able to look at their hand we can't really "whiff," even if they have nothing in their hand to name we can identify their deck and name the best activated ability.

I think that's a good card to point out, actually. I wouldn't play it MD, though, because my gut tells me that Needle effects are more SB. You're going to run into a lot of MUs where you can't Needle anything (any version Delver), or Needle the really relevant effects (Mana-producing Elves). But I think it's a strong card to point out, and deserves some slots (in the Prison builds - Revoker is probably more what you want in Stompy).


Have you tested Manamorphose, Eternal Dragon or Mox Diamond? The problem is, you don't want to run multiple fixers but you want to draw into them reliably.

Mox Diamond needs about 24+ lands in your deck to effectively do anything - to drop a land, and play Diamond as ramp from your opening hand. 26 is more preferable. Chrome Mox runs off roughly the same count as FoW - about 16 imprintables (bad) but really more like 19 (good).

Manamorphose gets hit hard by Thalia. Otherwise, it's be a super cool card to consider.

Eternal Dragon - that seems like a strangely hot one, though. I like that idea, as it's still doable off a Tomb if you have nothing else to do T1. I doubt you'd recur it, but long games, you get a decent flier, that might or likely might not recur. Cool idea. I think it's the only viable Plainscycling card, and unfortunately you can't cast the Basic Landcycling cards in RW. There is that land that has Basic LandC... that might be worth considering, too...?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think sorcerous spyglass from ixalan shows a ton of promise.
I am also very excited for this card!


There is that land that has Basic LandC... that might be worth considering, too...?
Ash Barrens :smile:

[Karhumies]

Eternal Dragon - that seems like a strangely hot one, though. I like that idea, as it's still doable off a Tomb if you have nothing else to do T1. I doubt you'd recur it, but long games, you get a decent flier, that might or likely might not recur. Cool idea. I think it's the only viable Plainscycling card, and unfortunately you can't cast the Basic Landcycling cards in RW. There is that land that has Basic LandC... that might be worth considering, too...?

Thinking of strange cards, there is also
- Armillary Sphere which is slow and a crap topdeck
- Mycosynth Wellspring
- Pilgrim's Eye
- Riftstone Portal, which is probably the most complex solution to the problem I can think of. Requires Smuggler's Copter or another looting effect as an enabler. Works through Moon effects, enabling you to troll your opponent super hard.

[pinkfrosting]

I'm on stream playing this deck at the last Card Kingdom weekly.

http://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/159961279?sr=a&t=0s

You can see me win 2-1 vs miracles first round and then I'm on stream again for just my third game at the end of R2, where I win vs UWR stone blade and miss 2 sin prodder triggers :rolleyes:

Went undefeated for the rest of the night, beating elves and then BUG delver.

I wish the elves match had been on stream. Game one I resolve an early chalice/moon and he's stuck on one forest and essentially does nothing. Game 2 he has an early NO for progenitus and he blows up my one bridge. Game three though was amazing, and invloves about 3 sweepers from me, two resolved NOs from him, quicksmith rebel, and me ending the game at 4 life behind two bridges with a chandra.

[Ace/Homebrew]

The deck got a little love from the SCG Team Constructed Open this weekend.
Link (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=115000)


Mono-Red Prison by Ryan Gnieski
23rd Place at StarCityGames.com Team Constructed Open on 7/22/2017

Creatures (13)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Hazoret the Fervent

Planeswalkers (5)
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

Lands (19)
11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Spells (23)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Fiery Confluence

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Sudden Shock
3 Volcanic Fallout


Looks like they opted for the 11th Mountain over a singleton Quicksmith Rebel

[fluuu]

Can someone post the most recent versión of goblin prison?

Thanks, ill appreciate so much

[Ace/Homebrew]

Oddly enough, the Vial Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31114-Deck-Vial-Goblins&p=1018185&viewfull=1#post1018185) thread just linked to a list...

Lands
10 x Mountain
4 x City of Traitors
4 x Ancient Tomb
3 x Cavern of Souls

Creatures
1 x Stingscourger
4 x Moggcatcher
1 x Murderous Redcap
1 x Siege-Gang Commander
4 x Goblin Rabblemaster
4 x Magus of the Moon
4 x Simian Spirit Guide
1 x Goblin Settler
1 x Tuktuk Scrapper
1 x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Spells
4 x Chrome Mox
3 x Trinisphere
2 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Blood Moon

Sideboard
4 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Sudden Shock
1 x Goblin Sharpshooter
1 x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 x Fiery Confluence
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
3 x Ensnaring Bridge

[ZTurgeon]

Can someone post the most recent versión of goblin prison?

Thanks, ill appreciate so much

It's pretty much the same as before. I havent done work on it for a little bit because it hasn't gotten any new cards.

The issue with that style over the other ones at the moment are that the Moggcatcher package contains 9-10 cards that cost 4 or more. That means that you don't have room to have Chandra or Confluence main, and both are way better positioned right now. With everyone playing decks that commit creatures to the board, being able to have the space for Confluence and maindeck bridges is more important to having the toolbox.

[fluuu]

It's pretty much the same as before. I havent done work on it for a little bit because it hasn't gotten any new cards.

The issue with that style over the other ones at the moment are that the Moggcatcher package contains 9-10 cards that cost 4 or more. That means that you don't have room to have Chandra or Confluence main, and both are way better positioned right now. With everyone playing decks that commit creatures to the board, being able to have the space for Confluence and maindeck bridges is more important to having the toolbox.

Sad to read this. I really love the goblin version

[GoblinZ]

would likely pick up this deck soon, really wish there could be a new primer for the current version of this deck.

[frogger42]

would likely pick up this deck soon, really wish there could be a new primer for the current version of this deck.

Yeah, I think we've come to the discussion on here whether you want to play a Stompy version (ie heavy creature-based) or a more Stax/Control build (heavy non-creature spells). Both run 8 moons and 4 chalice, but consider the main difference here being that Stompy wants to invest more in creatures and equipment (SoFI and Jitte) and Stax wants Ensnaring Bridge and Chandra or similar threats behind the Bridge. They both look similar to most people, but they have fairly different playstyles in actually winning the game.

Just mentioning this when you go to pick up the deck. Consider Eldrazi to be a Stompy deck, and Planeswalker Stax to be, of course, a Stax deck, just to give you an idea.

I'm definitely biased, and like the Stompy version of mono-R more. It's partly my play style, but also it has a much higher threat density, and the CMC tends to curve out at R2 for almost all of your cards, instead of RR2 for Stax, which is a significant difference with Sol Lands. Also, Stax tends to run far more non-creature spells, which are incredibly difficult to cast vs a Thalia (so Death and Taxes can be exceptionally hard with Stax). I'm personally not a fan of dumping your hand and hoping Bridge doesn't get Ancient Grudged, either.

But chat with the proponents of Ensnaring Bridge, see which one you want to build.

I put up a Stompy list on here (I'm trying out Imperial Recruiters right now), and there are a handful of Stax lists on here, too.

[TLK]

What do we think about the new 6/5 haste dragon for 4 mana as a finisher? Can only attack every other turn, but could be worth looking into.

[ZTurgeon]

What do we think about the new 6/5 haste dragon for 4 mana as a finisher? Can only attack every other turn, but could be worth looking into.

It's so bad. It kills slower than most 3 drops and can't even pick off a planeswalker.

[NormalGuy]

Former R/W Painter player here. I stopped by because I'm looking to convert to a moon prison plan after top ban. I saw some questions on the last page about white splash I'll try to answer. To convert mono-r painter to r/w you go -6 Mountain, -4 Simian, +4 Arid Mesa, +2 Plateau, +4 Lotus Petal. The only white card we maindeck was E. Tutor, and sideboard was some combination of Duregar Hedgemage, RIP, Assemble the Legion, Peacekeeper. We could also recur lotus petal with welder if necessary.

We wouldn't really care about cutting off white mana if we could jam a T1 blood moon. You can also T1 plateau+e-tutor for blood moon, and drop moon on T2. I wouldn't even consider running anything costing WW.

[frogger42]

Former R/W Painter player here. I stopped by because I'm looking to convert to a moon prison plan after top ban. I saw some questions on the last page about white splash I'll try to answer. To convert mono-r painter to r/w you go -6 Mountain, -4 Simian, +4 Arid Mesa, +2 Plateau, +4 Lotus Petal. The only white card we maindeck was E. Tutor, and sideboard was some combination of Duregar Hedgemage, RIP, Assemble the Legion, Peacekeeper. We could also recur lotus petal with welder if necessary.

We wouldn't really care about cutting off white mana if we could jam a T1 blood moon. You can also T1 plateau+e-tutor for blood moon, and drop moon on T2. I wouldn't even consider running anything costing WW.

Cool, thanks for the response. I think the Lotus Petal is a good thing to mention, but I think there are two main things against it. Painter is looking to combo off, so wherever the mana comes from doesn't matter - Petal is better than Chrome in Painter. Stompy on the other hand often looks to beat with dudes - and SSG, while definitely a terrible beater, does play that role under a Chalice and/or Moon. It's definitely a LOT better if you run Equipment.

Number two is what would R/W stompy MD as a white piece? I'm not sure. Stoneforge Mystic seems like the #1 choice, but having access to a single W mana off of Petal means you're probably never going to fetch Batterskull, esp under a Moon. No way to cast SFM and cheat in the 'Skull.

I do think the Fetches -> Plateau is a great idea, esp going for R/W. If you end up running around 24 lands somehow, then probably Mox Diamond > Lotus Petal for this deck. Again, it ideally wants to have mana sources that you can use again and again, basically to lay creatures, and isn't really looking to combo off any given turn, other than laying a lock piece T1.

And yes, WW is basically uncalled for in a Blood Moon deck. Good ideas for the manabase so far.

[jandax]

Looks like you're still into Rw painter bud

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[NormalGuy]

Cool, thanks for the response. I think the Lotus Petal is a good thing to mention, but I think there are two main things against it. Painter is looking to combo off, so wherever the mana comes from doesn't matter - Petal is better than Chrome in Painter. Stompy on the other hand often looks to beat with dudes - and SSG, while definitely a terrible beater, does play that role under a Chalice and/or Moon. It's definitely a LOT better if you run Equipment.

Number two is what would R/W stompy MD as a white piece? I'm not sure. Stoneforge Mystic seems like the #1 choice, but having access to a single W mana off of Petal means you're probably never going to fetch Batterskull, esp under a Moon. No way to cast SFM and cheat in the 'Skull.

I do think the Fetches -> Plateau is a great idea, esp going for R/W. If you end up running around 24 lands somehow, then probably Mox Diamond > Lotus Petal for this deck. Again, it ideally wants to have mana sources that you can use again and again, basically to lay creatures, and isn't really looking to combo off any given turn, other than laying a lock piece T1.

And yes, WW is basically uncalled for in a Blood Moon deck. Good ideas for the manabase so far.

Ya, I'm not familiar enough with this deck to know why you might want white, I was just trying to answer onemancannon's question. The same basic Mana change could be used to splash any other color you might want too.

My gut feeling would be to just stick with the e-tutor so you can go grab whatever you want to play on T2. Maybe a chalice if your T1 chalice got countered, or maybe a moon, pithing needle, revoker, bridge, walking ballista, trinisphere.

In painter it worked really well with top because you got 12 shuffle effects (fetch, e-tutor, recruiter) to help you dig through your library, but that obviously doesn't work anymore. Maybe replace top with Orcish Spy? :laugh:

[frogger42]

My friend ran E Tutor in his RW stompy. I was totally against it and eventually convinced him to move it into the SB. Firstly, it smacks right into your Chalice. Number two, it's card disadvantage (where you're already losing cards to Chrome Mox and SSG). And also, you have no GY recursion, unlike Painter, where you can let your Grindstone get countered and Weld it back in.

I think the only thing you gain from White is SB options. Which... who cares, probably nothing's going to hit the MD, not more than 4 cards, anyway. I personally feel it's something of a waste in Stompy, and it also sets you harder into Price of Progress range. Plus... who the f- wants to own Plateaus? Throw your money away.


In painter it worked really well with top because you got 12 shuffle effects (fetch, e-tutor, recruiter) to help you dig through your library, but that obviously doesn't work anymore. Maybe replace top with Orcish Spy? :laugh:

Yes, Orcish Librarian sounds like the hot tech. It's probably pretty hard to find, break the card and run it up to $30. Let WotC print a Judge Foil of it; profit.

[NormalGuy]

So I sleeved up a modified version of one of the lists I found here to play at my LGS tomorrow. Since I'm missing the Fiery Confluence, Chandras, Hazoret, and Chrome mox, I decided to go artifact heavy and see how that goes. I'm not sure if this can really be called dragon stompy anymore. I still need to put together a sideboard, probably some generic package of revoker/needle, grave hate, bolts, and ratchet bombs. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The meta here seems to be infested with a bunch of delver, stoneblade, and elves decks, so hopefully 8-moon + chalice can get the job done.


// Creatures (12)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Walking Ballista
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Spellskite

// Planeswalkers (2)
2 Koth of the Hammer

// Lands (18)
6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

// Spells (28)
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Opal
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
3 Lotus Petal
3 Faithless Looting
3 Bottled Cloister

[AceOfJacks]

So I sleeved up a modified version of one of the lists I found here to play at my LGS tomorrow. Since I'm missing the Fiery Confluence, Chandras, Hazoret, and Chrome mox, I decided to go artifact heavy and see how that goes. I'm not sure if this can really be called dragon stompy anymore. I still need to put together a sideboard, probably some generic package of revoker/needle, grave hate, bolts, and ratchet bombs. Any suggestions would be appreciated. The meta here seems to be infested with a bunch of delver, stoneblade, and elves decks, so hopefully 8-moon + chalice can get the job done.


// Creatures (12)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Walking Ballista
2 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Spellskite

// Planeswalkers (2)
2 Koth of the Hammer

// Lands (18)
6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

// Spells (28)
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Opal
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
3 Lotus Petal
3 Faithless Looting
3 Bottled Cloister


If your budget allows for it, consider some combination of Trash for Treasure, Pia Nalaar, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, and Hangarback Walker. Going heavy artifact will leave you vulnerable to artifact hate, and that's why I suggested the Trash for Treasure. Hangarback Walker is something that can be exploded by either Pia, and can leave an arsenal of flying attackers that still work under a Bridge.

Good luck with the tournament!

[NormalGuy]

If your budget allows for it, consider some combination of Trash for Treasure, Pia Nalaar, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, and Hangarback Walker. Going heavy artifact will leave you vulnerable to artifact hate, and that's why I suggested the Trash for Treasure. Hangarback Walker is something that can be exploded by either Pia, and can leave an arsenal of flying attackers that still work under a Bridge.

Good luck with the tournament!

Ya, I just noticed that faithless looting doesn't play well with chalice, so I'll swap those out for 2 Daretti, Scrap Savant and a hangarback. I don't have any of the Pia Nalaar cards, and cost isn't really the issue, it's getting them before tomorrow.

[jandax]

The real issue is you have a glacially slow clock. You might get some scoops to a moon effect, but there's little in the way of gas to finish the game. I know it's temporary but don't let your expectations exceed your level of preparation.

[frogger42]

The real issue is you have a glacially slow clock. You might get some scoops to a moon effect, but there's little in the way of gas to finish the game. I know it's temporary but don't let your expectations exceed your level of preparation.

I concur. You only have 6 threats that get through the Bridge - and 4 of them are Walking Ballistas. That's 20 dmg x 4 mana = 80 mana to hose your opponent. 2x Koth looks like FoW bait, and when that happens, you'll basically have no way to win.

If you can, try the 4x Hangarback and 4x Daretti route. That'll give you far more threats, and keep your Bridges more likely to stick around. Chandra, plus Hazoret and Quicksmith Rebel (two creatures I don't like with Bridge) are pretty important to your gameplan if you want to sit behind a Bridge. Your deck needs some reach, or you'll be really frustrated about not being able to close out a game.

[NormalGuy]

I went to a local tournament playing for dual lands with about 30 players. This was the list I bought. I ended up going 3-1-1 which was kind of upsetting because I intentionally drew the last game under under the advise of multiple people there that I would be guaranteed to get into top 8. But one of the tiebreaker matches went to an unintentional draw and pushed me into 9th place standing. Overall I was pretty happy with how the deck performed, but I would probably have 2 more koth over 2 deretti. Spellskite didn't really do anything for me either today.

There was another guy there playing the more traditional list in this thread, he did very well too. Definitely in the top 8.


// Creatures (16)
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Walking Ballista
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Spellskite
3 Hangarback Walker

// Planeswalkers (4)
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant

// Lands (18)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

// Spells (24)
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Lotus Petal
2 Bottled Cloister

// Sideboard (15)
3 Sun Droplet
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Volt Charge
3 Phyrexian Revoker


Round 1: 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
G1: on the draw I mull to 6, keep a hand with a mountain, scimian, and chalice, and blood moon and some other stuff and scry to leave a city on top. T1 I get thoughtseized, he takes the chalice and passes. I draw the city and stick the blood moon, cast some small dudes and proceed to beat him down with small dudes.
G2: I side in 3 Faeries and 2 crypts, my 7 has a faerie in it so I keep. Stick an early blood moon and he entombs a tidespout in response. I stick a trinisphere and a bridge pretty soon. He later tries to Stronghold Gambit in an Iona but I'm holding Magus. Next he plays a sneak attack and is able to block some of my small dudes, but eventually I just beat him down.

Round 2: 2-1 vs Infect
G1: I stick a T1 blood moon and proceed to beat down with small dudes for the win.
I think I just bring in 4 volt charges from the sideboard.
G2: I think I mull to maybe 5 here, try to play the 1 lock piece in my hand and it gets forced, he swings in an kills me in 2 or 3 turns while I don't do much.
G3: I forget exactly what happened in this game, but I end up behind a bridge with a hangarback and a magus, kill his stuff with volt charges while ticking up my hangarback and swinging in for small dude beatdowns, and maybe this game had a koth ult for some extra damage.

Round 3: 0-2 vs Czech Pile? It was 4 color good stuff basically.
These game didn't go well at all. I lose the die roll, end up mulling a lot and almost everything I play gets countered. Game 2 I stick a chalice on 1, but he plays a T2 Jitte and T3 True Name Nemesis. I end up playing out a bunch of ballista's and walkers which get eaten by jitte and can't topdeck a bridge to stay alive.

Round 4: 2-1 vs Stoneblade
G1: He plays a fetch, I play City+Petal and pitch a scimian to play magus leaving the petal open for daze, he forces the magus, then he plays another land and passes back, I use city and lotus petal to play a blood moon and he scoops before playing any spells. I don't really know what he's on at this point.
G2: He forces some my lock piece and gets a stoneforge in play. He ends up getting 2 stoneforges, SoFI, Batterskull, and just beats me down.
G3: I keep 7 with mountain, scimian, lotus petal. He mulls to 6, doesn't find the force. I stick a T1 blood moon and he scoops.

Round 5: I intentionally draw after multiple people assuring me I would be guaranteed to top8 with a draw. Sit around for an hour watching other people play magic. One of the tiebreaker matches goes to time and ends in a draw which somehow pushed me into 9th place in the standings. I guess I should learn how the standings/tiebreaker system works. Store owner feels bad and gives me a modern masters pack for my troubles. I go home.

[frogger42]

I went to a local tournament playing for dual lands with about 30 players. This was the list I bought. I ended up going 3-1-1 which was kind of upsetting because I intentionally drew the last game under under the advise of multiple people there that I would be guaranteed to get into top 8. But one of the tiebreaker matches went to an unintentional draw and pushed me into 9th place standing. Overall I was pretty happy with how the deck performed, but I would probably have 2 more koth over 2 deretti. Spellskite didn't really do anything for me either today.


Wait, were you at Scholars Games in Brockton?

[NormalGuy]

Wait, were you at Scholars Games in Brockton?

Nope, I don't even know where that is. This was in the NYC area.

[frogger42]

Nope, I don't even know where that is. This was in the NYC area.

Oh, hahaha... I wasn't sure if there was another stompy player. I won my LGS's small duals tourney, 5 rds and smashed the T8, despite savage misplays. I think he said it was about 20 players. Got a Volc, woot! (Plus, it taps for red.)

[AceOfJacks]

under under the advise of multiple people there that I would be guaranteed to get into top 8.

Geekery HQ, Astoria?

[NormalGuy]

Geekery HQ, Astoria?

Yep, that's the one. Were you the other stompy player?

[AceOfJacks]

Yep, that's the one. Were you the other stompy player?

I was the fat Curry bearded idiot hanging out by the back door talking shit with Sam and Stephen before the tournament, telling everyone I was on Hazoret's Undying Fury in an attempt to throw people off.

The list I played today:

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Blood Moon
3 Fiery Confluence
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Sin Prodder
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Abrade
4 Sulfur elemental
3 Ensnaring Bridge


I ended up 2-3, mostly due to my opponent in round 3 putting me on tilt, and I was really hungry and I didn't go get food.


Edit: Report
In every match, Abrade was phenomenal out of the sideboard, in the games that I wanted to cast them.

Rd 1: BUG, maybe Czech Pile
G1, My Rabblemaster + Sin Prodder trump his TNN.
G2, he has TNN with Jitte, and I hit 0 artifact removal.
G3, He has 2x TNN, but I have Chandra, Sin Prodder, Rabblemaster, and I Fiery Confluence him for lethal.
1-0

Rd2: W/U Stoneblade
G1, play, turn 1 Blood Moon. He plays Polluted Delta. I play random lock piece, he plays Misty. I play Koth, he plays Misty #2. I attack with lands some more, when he reaches 8 cards, he scoops instead of giving me information.
G2, I land a Trinisphere and a Sin Prodder. He has 3 white duals in play, and he taps out for Stoneforge, fetching Batterskull, I snicker as I casually plop a Blood Moon on the table, and he never recovers from the Blood Moon/Trinisphere shenanigans.
2-0

Rd3: 12post MUDrazi
G1, I keep a hand expecting him to be on DnT (which he usually is, or was for the last month or so) and it bites me in the ass. I play t1 Chalice, t2 Trinisphere, t3 Chandra, he plays Cloudposts into Grim Monoliths and Voltaic Keys into ULAMOG and BENDS ME OVER THE TABLE WITH NO LUBE.
G2, I keep a hand that I thought would be good. Turn 1 City of Traitors, pitch SSG, play Magus. He complains, plays a land, passes. I topdeck Abrade, think to myself, "Good to slow hiim down if he plays mana rocks," play an Ancient tomb, and beat him to 18. He topdecks and plays a land, passes. I draw a Sin Prodder, beat to 16. He topdecks and plays a land, passes. This continues, where I draw an unplayable red card, beat him down to 2 life, and discard a bunch of uncastable cards. He plays a land every single turn, and then in one turn, plays 2x Grim Monolith, 2x Voltaic Key, Ulamog (killing Magus,) Kozilek 1.0. I draw ... another uncastable red card. 9 draws in a row with no mana source, I pass. Next turn he plays Kozilek 2.0, proceeds to rip me a new hole from which I may defecate.
2-1

Rd4: U/R Delver
G1, To top off this humiliating defeat, I sat down in front of my next opponent and immediately felt something cold and wet on my chair. Apparently someone spilled water (or so I hope) and I was distracted trying to clean my pants and the seat. Tilt mode activated. ANYWAY, Opponent killed every one of my creatures, dazed or forced every one of my lock pieces, and ended up beating me with 2x Monastery Swiftspear and a Delver of Secrets. Not fun.
G2, I end up Chandra Ultimating him, which was fun.
G3, he Forces t1 Chalice, Dazes t2 Trinisphere, allows me to resolve turn3 Chandra but kills it, played more Ponders and Brainstorms than should be allowed by law. We trade threats for a few turns. In the end, he is at 6, I am at 6, I draw 2 lands in a row, and he topdecks Swiftspear, beats me to 5, and then topdecks Fireblast and kills me in one shot. At least I found all those lands I was missing in the last match though!
2-2

Rd5: New Miracles
G1, pants still wet, hunger kicking in, getting annoyed, I kept a decent hand against anything other than his deck. He allowed Chalice for 1 and Trinisphere, but I'm stuck with 2 Blood Moons in hand that do nothing against his literal 5 basic lands. He ends up winning after grinding me out, since Jace apparently is the king of the topdeck.
G2, I side out the 4x Blood Moon, which was an actual mistake. He locks me with Karakas / Vendilion Clique. But hey, that's what I get for playing with wet pants.
2-3

[NormalGuy]

I was the fat Curry bearded idiot hanging out by the back door talking shit with Sam and Stephen before the tournament, telling everyone I was on Hazoret's Undying Fury in an attempt to throw people off.

The list I played today:

11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Blood Moon
3 Fiery Confluence
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Sin Prodder
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Abrade
4 Sulfur elemental
3 Ensnaring Bridge


I ended up 2-3, mostly due to my opponent in round 3 putting me on tilt, and I was really hungry and I didn't go get food.

Ahh, ok. I thought you made it to top 8 because you were still hanging around after round 5. My time playing iPainter has trained me to always keep the Ensnaring bridges in the maindeck, it just saves your butt so often. I also like the synergy with bridge and Bottled Cloister. And Null Brooch seems like interesting tech with cloister. Maybe I just prefer a more defensive play style.

I based my list on http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15949&d=298173&f=LE which I think was posted a few pages back, but I'm missing a bunch of the direct damage cards, and I don't know if I want to drop another $160 on a set of new Chandras. My sideboard also needs some work, it's just a mix of generic sideboard cards.

Overall though it seems like the moon/stompy shell should be very good for the meta at that store based on all the very greedy mana bases I see floating around there. Sticking a blood moon just wins games.

[AceOfJacks]

Ahh, ok. I thought you made it to top 8 because you were still hanging around after round 5. My time playing iPainter has trained me to always keep the Ensnaring bridges in the maindeck, it just saves your butt so often. I also like the synergy with bridge and Bottled Cloister. And Null Brooch seems like interesting tech with cloister. Maybe I just prefer a more defensive play style.

I based my list on http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15949&d=298173&f=LE which I think was posted a few pages back, but I'm missing a bunch of the direct damage cards, and I don't know if I want to drop another $160 on a set of new Chandras. My sideboard also needs some work, it's just a mix of generic sideboard cards.

Overall though it seems like the moon/stompy shell should be very good for the meta at that store based on all the very greedy mana bases I see floating around there. Sticking a blood moon just wins games.

Chandra's picture is in the dictionary next to the word "amazing." She is absolutely 100% vital for this deck. I originally tried a 2/2 Split with Koth, but I immediately fell in love with her. Red Jace is super duper good.

Re: Meta: Yes, Blood Moon is good, but you also have to remember there are idiots at that store who play Sneak Show, Reanimator, and DnT was really popular, but not last week for some reason. It actually got me to tkae a "break" after Top got banned because all the degenerate turn1 kill decks were dominating the store, and then after I lost to those, I lost to the 4 DnT players in the room. But things are a little more diverse now.

I chose my sideboard because of the trends in the local meta. Reanimator can go off turn 1, so no T. Crypt. Also, they play Thoughtseize AND Unmask, so holding a Faeric Macabre won't work. DnT just needs 4 Sulfur Elemental, and more removal, so Abrade helps. Big creature decks like Show and Tell or Eldrazi get hosed by a well time Bridge, but you have to board out the aggro and rely on Chandra Ultimate or Koth Ultimate for winning those. Hazoret helps. Leovold ... well, sucks (at least against us.) Abrade helps as generic creature removal for random matchups where more removal is good, like Deathrites/Nobles for mana, Snapcasters standing in the way of creatures, opposing Jittes or Batterskulls, etc.

Edit: Re: difference between aggro and prison, aka Rabblemaster and Bridge:
I personally like to go for aggro beats on g1. Force my opponent to deal with my threats. Sling a bunch of haymakers at them, and see what sticks. When you're forced to go defensive, against Griselbrand, Emrakul, Worldspine Wurm, etc, that when the deck plays differently. G1 you're aggro, g2 you're hiding behind a Bridge and playing pure prison. Sin Prodder is awkward because it can fill up your hand under bad circumstances, but only if your opponent doesn't realize that. Every game I was hiding behind a Bridge, the only time I hated him was when I had multiple lands on top, and my opponent was smart and gave me all those lands. Also consider that sometimes they make you bin the lands because they don't want the Sin Prodder attacking that turn.

[Clark Kant]

This is the list I play...

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Quicksmith Rebel

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Fiery Confluence
3 Trinisphere

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Trinisphere
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Boil
1 Boiling Seas

Any advice on the list?

Revoker and Sulfur Elemental are both fantastic. Revoker has never once not had a perfect target. Sulfur Elemental is awesome against Mentor tokens. It along with Revoker to stop Jace and the Boils are the only reason I can beat Miracles which is my worst matchup. 4 Elemental and Revoker to stop Vial allows the deck to dominate Death and Taxes which otherwise would be my one other bad matchup.

Revoker stops Vampire Hexmage, Food Chain, Deathrite Shaman, Jace and Liliana, Vial, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Grim Monolith and various Mana Rocks. It's the perfect supplement to 8 maindeck Blood Moons. The only matchups where I don't end up bringing in a full playset of Revokers are U/R Delver, Lands and Burn.

Would it make sense to just go ahead and make room for 4 Revokers maindeck to supplement the deck's disruption/prison plan? I'm considering moving the Sulfur Elemental and a Ensnaring Bridge and another Fiery Confluence to the board to play 4 Revoker maindeck, ala...

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Quicksmith Rebel

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
3 Fiery Confluence

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Sulfur Elemental
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Boil
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere


Scab-Clan Berserker is just something extra to help versus combo and control matchups but I would love to get your thoughts on the card. I also considered Mindsparker but rejected it because it's much less useful against ANT and BR Reanimator.

[pinkfrosting]

After taking a break from Red Prison to jam Grixis Delver for a bit, decided to come back and run some leagues with a few new ideas. Managed to get two 5-0's and a 4-1 in two days with this list.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732619#paper

The biggest and I think most effective change to the traditional list I made is +2 mana sources going to 12 mountain 4 tomb 4 city 4 chrome mox 1 petal. This + Trinisphere in the main guarantees we see the most benefit from our lock pieces early in the game. Against a lot of decks Trinisphere isn't as effective past turn 3-4, but being able to always curve to 4 during that window means we get an uncounterable chandra/moon/chalice etc...

Also with the number of 4 drops this deck has been running I think with or without 3ball this much mana is necessary to consistently curve into our 4-drops on time and to play around wasteland, daze, and tax effects.

The other change that I'm not too sure about is cutting the aggressive 3-drop slot entirely. The prison angle is really so effective that I think just cutting creatures and further blanking removal is fine. I have never had a problem fully locking out any combo deck except sneak and show, which I don't think sin prodder solves at all. I beat ANT storm 4 matches with this list with no issues. With more mana sources I also think the deck needs a 5th card draw engine beyond the 4 chandra, I played a bit with avaricious dragon but settled on cloister because of its synergy with bridge. This card has been an all-star every time I've resolved it.

[CovenantElite30]

After taking a break from Red Prison to jam Grixis Delver for a bit, decided to come back and run some leagues with a few new ideas. Managed to get two 5-0's and a 4-1 in two days with this list.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732619#paper

The biggest and I think most effective change to the traditional list I made is +2 mana sources going to 12 mountain 4 tomb 4 city 4 chrome mox 1 petal. This + Trinisphere in the main guarantees we see the most benefit from our lock pieces early in the game. Against a lot of decks Trinisphere isn't as effective past turn 3-4, but being able to always curve to 4 during that window means we get an uncounterable chandra/moon/chalice etc...

Also with the number of 4 drops this deck has been running I think with or without 3ball this much mana is necessary to consistently curve into our 4-drops on time and to play around wasteland, daze, and tax effects.

The other change that I'm not too sure about is cutting the aggressive 3-drop slot entirely. The prison angle is really so effective that I think just cutting creatures and further blanking removal is fine. I have never had a problem fully locking out any combo deck except sneak and show, which I don't think sin prodder solves at all. I beat ANT storm 4 matches with this list with no issues. With more mana sources I also think the deck needs a 5th card draw engine beyond the 4 chandra, I played a bit with avaricious dragon but settled on cloister because of its synergy with bridge. This card has been an all-star every time I've resolved it.


Can you post your deck list, I can't get to the list from work.

Also which card is cloister again?

Thank you.

[mariobross]

Hi,

Is there a guide to understanding how to make the side-in/out the different metchups?

I think it's one of the most important things to know...

Thank you all

[frogger42]

Hi,

Is there a guide to understanding how to make the side-in/out the different metchups?

I think it's one of the most important things to know...

Thank you all

Stompy is a rogue deck, and with it not putting up serious numbers, there's no real consensus on how to build it and what should be in. Sideboarding is very dependent upon what cards you have available in your 75; especially in siding stuff out, because you have to determine which cards are the weakest in your MD, while your SB cards are going to come in no matter what.

Some generalities: Fiery Confluence is great vs Stoneforge Mystic and weenie decks. I have it in my SB, and sometimes it comes in against Miracles (only because my MD Blood Moon is terrible against them).

Chandra is horrible vs DnT and Aggro strategies. Too many small threats that can take her out. But if you run Bridge, you don't have much of a choice; you need to win the game somehow.

Bridge is bad vs Burn and decks with a lot of reach (UR Delver).

It's easiest if you settle on a 60-card maindeck, then ask what cards you want in your SB to beat which decks. Then we can answer how to SB for you.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Just building on frogger's comments...

Most people will include at least 4 pieces of graveyard hate and what you bring them in against depends on what you run. The most common choices are:

* Leyline of the Void - Needed against turn 1 or 2 graveyard strategies. Best against either flavor of Reanimator and either flavor of Dredge. You pretty much use either 0 or 4 in the sideboard because you have no reasonable way to hardcast it. That means mulliganning aggressively because you feel there is no way to win the matchup without having one start on the battlefield before the game begins.

* Faerie Macabre - My personal favorite option. Still good against Reanimator and Dredge, but they have ways to stop it (Pithing Needle) or play around it (overfill the yard). What you give up against Reanimator and Dredge, you gain by having yard-hate for Lands, Storm, Snapcaster-decks, etc. A playset is not necessary and sometimes it can be a good idea to run a split with the final option.

* Tormod's Crypt - Very efficiently costed and devastating against graveyard strategies. Unfortunately it has some flaws... It can be countered on the stack (including by our own Chalice of the Void), Needled/Revoked, or baited. By baited, I mean that your opponent is unlikely to be surprised by it if you play it right away (because waiting to play it may cost you the game), and they may 'go for it' with a minimal amount of investment in the graveyard. Then after you use it they refill the yard and do what they wanted anyway.



The rest of your sideboard largely depends on how your main deck is designed. If you are main decking Ensnaring Bridge, then obviously you won't have any in the sideboard. But recently you'll find at least 2 or 3 Bridges in the pool of 75 cards.

You will also usually find up to 4 pieces of 'D&T hate'. I refer to anything that wipes the board of weenies or destroys artifacts as D&T hate even though the cards usually have a wider application. I just feel our D&T matchup is so poor, and the deck is so popular, that you need to have a strategy for games 2/3 if you want to have a chance. Fiery Confluence is an all-star. Abrade was recently printed and could prove to be worth a few slots. I've seen a lot of people play with 4 Sulfur Elemental, but I personally feel like more than 2 in the sideboard is too many. Other cards worth mentioning are Shattering Spree, Ingot Chewer; Volcanic Fallout, and Sudden Demise.

[pinkfrosting]

You will also usually find up to 4 pieces of 'D&T hate'. I refer to anything that wipes the board of weenies or destroys artifacts as D&T hate even though the cards usually have a wider application. I just feel our D&T matchup is so poor, and the deck is so popular, that you need to have a strategy for games 2/3 if you want to have a chance. Fiery Confluence is an all-star. Abrade was recently printed and could prove to be worth a few slots. I've seen a lot of people play with 4 Sulfur Elemental, but I personally feel like more than 2 in the sideboard is too many. Other cards worth mentioning are Shattering Spree, Ingot Chewer; Volcanic Fallout, and Sudden Demise.

Also Sudden Shock, Kozilek's Return, and Pyrokinesis.

[amppyou]

After taking a break from Red Prison to jam Grixis Delver for a bit, decided to come back and run some leagues with a few new ideas. Managed to get two 5-0's and a 4-1 in two days with this list.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732619#paper

The biggest and I think most effective change to the traditional list I made is +2 mana sources going to 12 mountain 4 tomb 4 city 4 chrome mox 1 petal. This + Trinisphere in the main guarantees we see the most benefit from our lock pieces early in the game. Against a lot of decks Trinisphere isn't as effective past turn 3-4, but being able to always curve to 4 during that window means we get an uncounterable chandra/moon/chalice etc...

Also with the number of 4 drops this deck has been running I think with or without 3ball this much mana is necessary to consistently curve into our 4-drops on time and to play around wasteland, daze, and tax effects.

The other change that I'm not too sure about is cutting the aggressive 3-drop slot entirely. The prison angle is really so effective that I think just cutting creatures and further blanking removal is fine. I have never had a problem fully locking out any combo deck except sneak and show, which I don't think sin prodder solves at all. I beat ANT storm 4 matches with this list with no issues. With more mana sources I also think the deck needs a 5th card draw engine beyond the 4 chandra, I played a bit with avaricious dragon but settled on cloister because of its synergy with bridge. This card has been an all-star every time I've resolved it.

This list looks very streamlined. I assume Kozilek's Return is a meta-call. It seems better against D&T, but worse than Volcanic Fallout vs. Young Pyromancer decks. How have the Boils worked out for you?

[arj]

Went to a local small turney today that ended 2-2. The two matches I lost were very close. Both lost to mentor, so I'm bumping my sulfur count. Some random musings. Goblin Rabblemaster is really strong, even with bridges maindeck. Quicksmith Rebel is really good, I'm bumping that to 2 now instead of 1.

[mr-x]

Hey, I'm a first time poster. I played this list at a 23 person 1k and got to top 8.


3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
4 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Goblin Rabblemaster

4 Blood Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
1 Crystal Vein

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Fiery Confluence

SB:

2 Bottled Cloister
1 Trinisphere
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Volcanic Fallout

Match 1: U/R Delver 2-0

game 1 - I turn 1 blood moon. They bolted and chain lightning but I got down E bridge and chandra and won by 2 life.
game 2 - They had basic island so I didn't bother with turn 1 moon, instead I played trinisphere and next turn Hazoret and I was able to dump my hand to attack. Game was over very fast.

Match 2: Charbelcher 2-1

game 1 - I lose the die roll and get belched.
game 2 - turn 1 trinisphere, they scooped.
game 3 - see game 2.

Match 3: Grixis Delver 1-2

game 1 - I mulled to 5. They got 2 delvers out and I couldn't deal with them.
game 2 - turn 1 blood moon and then trinisphere and got there.
game 3 - Memory is fuzzy but I yet again got beatdown by 2 delvers. I didn't draw any volcanic fallouts and my confluence got forced.

Match 4: R/G Lands 2-0

game 1 - I was on the draw, they got mox diamond turn one and were ready to combo turn 2 or 3. I played ensnaring bridge. Game went on a awhile then chandra got me there.
game 2 -They played a taiga, gambled and got Loam in the graveyard. I played bloodmoon and passed. I can't remember what they did next but on my turn 2 I put a chalice on 2. Then I got out hazoret and laid the beats down.

Match 5: Elves 1-1-1
They were a friend of mine and we intentionally drew to top 8.

Top 8: We all split. The store was offering free entry to the next event as another prize to the top 2 players, so we played for that.

W/U/B Tezzorator: 2-0

game 1 - they were on the play with a mox diamond and basic island. Then played ethersworn cannonist, baleful strix. I just kept dropping lands since most of my hand was useless. Then they played tezz, to make strix a 5/5. Next turn I draw fiery confluence, play it, I destroyed strix, cannonist and tezz since it was at 2 loyalty. That wiped the board then I played E bridge and chandra to win.
game 2 - He had thopter sword combo. I had e bridge and Bottle Cloister. I eventually drew into chandra and won.


Elves: 1-2

game 1 - I don't remember too well. I wiped the board confluence but then he natural ordered for progenitis and got me.
game 2 - turn 1 blood moon locked him out.
game 3 - Ruric thar stopped me from playing anything and beat me down hard.


Before the tournament I was considering cutting the 2 rabblemasters for main deck cloisters. Personally, I think I like the cloisters in the side better. I tested with quicksmith rebel and opted for a 2nd hazoret in its place. I still don't know how I feel about rabblemaster with the main deck E bridges. Think I may cut rable for another 3 drop of some sort that better fits the slow prison style. The 1 crystal veins is because I only have 3 City of Traitors.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Congrats man!

Jaya Ballard, Task Mage has generally been included in Ensnaring Bridge lists from years past (I haven't seen her in the newly popular build though). She does everything you want, but the :r::r: part of her mana cost turns most people off. Might not be too big of a factor as a 2-of though.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,

I recognized this list from samy13 which top 8ed the last two Legacy challenges on mtgo...Any thoughts on this true "Dragon" stompy version? Seems totally weird to me ^^

I personally like the fact that Sarkhan & Glorybringer are removal and a beater in one card but all those cc5 manacost cards are scary. Thundermaw is truly great but he's also on cc5...

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16673&d=303131&f=LE

[ZEROorDIE]

Congrats man!

Jaya Ballard, Task Mage has generally been included in Ensnaring Bridge lists from years past (I haven't seen her in the newly popular build though). She does everything you want, but the :r::r: part of her mana cost turns most people off. Might not be too big of a factor as a 2-of though.

I've done some brief testing with her. only got a few activations as she was mostly killed on sight, but seems powerful in that slot. the discard is definitely nice with bridge. the mana cost was never really a problem as I never wanted to jam her before getting a lock established and the 8 moon effects pretty much negate any issues with getting to (R)(R). I've been trying to slim down on the 4cmc non creatures after getting hosed by Gaddock Teeg a couple times

just my $0.02

[NormalGuy]

I've done some brief testing with her. only got a few activations as she was mostly killed on sight, but seems powerful in that slot. the discard is definitely nice with bridge. the mana cost was never really a problem as I never wanted to jam her before getting a lock established and the 8 moon effects pretty much negate any issues with getting to (R)(R). I've been trying to slim down on the 4cmc non creatures after getting hosed by Gaddock Teeg a couple times

just my $0.02

I agree with this. I lost a game last night to some kind of D&T variant because of Gaddock Teeg I couldn't cast Chandra to get my hand empty. That was my only loss in the past 7 games even running a suboptimal list. I'm going to move Jaya into my list and try her out.

On another note, has anyone tried Torpor Orb against D&T? It seems like it might be good to shut off SFM, Flickerwisp, and recruiter. It was super annoying getting my chalice flickered.

[jandax]

Not sure chalice should stay in against DnT. They have a lot of ways around it and it doesn't win us the game like in other marches

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[frogger42]

Hey guys,

I recognized this list from samy13 which top 8ed the last two Legacy challenges on mtgo...Any thoughts on this true "Dragon" stompy version? Seems totally weird to me ^^

I personally like the fact that Sarkhan & Glorybringer are removal and a beater in one card but all those cc5 manacost cards are scary. Thundermaw is truly great but he's also on cc5...

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16673&d=303131&f=LE

This list, quite frankly, looks horrible. Cmc5 in multiple slots, 2 Crystal Veins... It's plain bad. I would get my head checked if I ever sleeved this up. The rest of the T8 sports classics such as Fact or Fiction, and the ever popular Night's Whisper.

Cmc 6 Chandra... Go big, and go home.

EDIT: take out Chalice vs DnT. Torpor Orb is way way too narrow an effect. Even Sulfur Elemental is better, as it's an uncounterable threat. Up you threat density.

[Medea_]

I'm usually playing the other side of the matchup, but you should take out your Chalices against D&T for sure.

How do people feel about the sweeper-heavy lists that have been popping up recently? I haven't played the deck much in about the last two months, but was going to revisit it for some side events this weekend. Those maindeck sweepers would be doing the work that cards like Volcanic Fallout have done in the past in the sideboard, so I can see where it is coming from. I don't like that many of those versions are running less than 4 Magus though; playing 8 moon effects is one of the reasons I like this shell. I'm also a little unsure how I feel about Crystal Vein.

[NormalGuy]

EDIT: take out Chalice vs DnT. Torpor Orb is way way too narrow an effect. Even Sulfur Elemental is better, as it's an uncounterable threat. Up you threat density.



I kind of feel like sulfur elemental is not that good since DnT is running a lot of 2 toughness creatures these days. And torpor orb can come in against Snapcaster, Thought-Knot Seer, and Elves. Maybe spellskite would be better option though. I'm going to put 2 Orb's in my sideboard and try them out at least.

[Medea_]

I kind of feel like sulfur elemental is not that good since DnT is running a lot of 2 toughness creatures these days. And torpor orb can come in against Snapcaster, Thought-Knot Seer, and Elves. Maybe spellskite would be better option though. I'm going to put 2 Orb's in my sideboard and try them out at least.

Sulfur Elemental is great against D&T. It invalidates Mom, Thalia, Flickerwisp, and Recruiter (14 cards in most shells these days) It makes the short lists of cards I never want to play against along with Massacre, Dread of Night, and Kozilek's Return. The question you have to ask is, "Do I want to run narrow cards that are largely for D&T or do I want to run more generic cards that will have applications elsewhere?" I've always thought that the 4x Sulfur Elemental plan was a touch aggressive. I think I like Abrade as a happy medium card that can deal with a wide spectrum of D&T's stuff while having wide application elsewhere. Pair a few of those with a couple of sweepers, and you likely end up with better percentage points across the field.

[frogger42]

I kind of feel like sulfur elemental is not that good since DnT is running a lot of 2 toughness creatures these days. And torpor orb can come in against Snapcaster, Thought-Knot Seer, and Elves. Maybe spellskite would be better option though. I'm going to put 2 Orb's in my sideboard and try them out at least.

It doesn't stop Glimpse. It stops about 6 slots, maybe 7 in the deck. Sounds weaksauce.

[NormalGuy]

Sulfur Elemental is great against D&T. It invalidates Mom, Thalia, Flickerwisp, and Recruiter (14 cards in most shells these days) It makes the short lists of cards I never want to play against along with Massacre, Dread of Night, and Kozilek's Return. The question you have to ask is, "Do I want to run narrow cards that are largely for D&T or do I want to run more generic cards that will have applications elsewhere?" I've always thought that the 4x Sulfur Elemental plan was a touch aggressive. I think I like Abrade as a happy medium card that can deal with a wide spectrum of D&T's stuff while having wide application elsewhere. Pair a few of those with a couple of sweepers, and you likely end up with better percentage points across the field.

I feel like Sulfur Elemental isn't super good against Flickerwisp and Recruiter because you still get the ETB triggers. I do really like it against Monastary Mentor decks though. Kozilek's Return is another thing I want to try, but my stompy build runs lots of small creatures, so I'll end up sweeping myself too. I guess Anarchy is always an option.


It doesn't stop Glimpse. It stops about 6 slots, maybe 7 in the deck. Sounds weaksauce.

It stops Rac Sage, which protects your bridge/chalice, which is all I really care about against elves. I probably am overestimating how good it is though.

[bruizar]

I feel like Sulfur Elemental isn't super good against Flickerwisp and Recruiter because you still get the ETB triggers. I do really like it against Monastary Mentor decks though. Kozilek's Return is another thing I want to try, but my stompy build runs lots of small creatures, so I'll end up sweeping myself too. I guess Anarchy is always an option.


Monastery Mentor and Gitaxian Probe are restricted in Vintage. That should give some indication to the cards power and as such I think legacy players are still underestimating the power of mentor. If Mentor+Probe becomes more widespread, Sulfur Elemental will gain more relevance. My opinion is that Sulfur Elemental is already very good, but you want to use it as a removal spell. When you play Sulfur Elemental on an empty-ish board, it will just eat a removal spell, or the player will cast a Stoneforge Mystic and grab a Jitte instead and answer it. You want to kill off 2 or 3 creatures (preferably Flickerwisp and mom) upon casting it and use it as a roadblock that must be answered as you play. If they answer it, you've already destroyed several turns and several cards with Sulfur Elemental.

[jandax]

I feel like Sulfur Elemental isn't super good against Flickerwisp and Recruiter because you still get the ETB triggers. I do really like it against Monastary Mentor decks though. Kozilek's Return is another thing I want to try, but my stompy build runs lots of small creatures, so I'll end up sweeping myself too. I guess Anarchy is always an option.



It stops Rac Sage, which protects your bridge/chalice, which is all I really care about against elves. I probably am overestimating how good it is though.

The big picture point here is that when you board cards out [with this deck] you need to board in cards that aren't narrow [in a normal meta]. Torpor orb willnot win you the game but sulfur elementals will. Double up on them just once on the battlefield and if you don't get an immediate concession they have a hand full of cards that'll just keep them in the game. Anarchy is also narrow but I'm still a proponent because for a certain meta its not narrow at all. Heed advice, i cant speak for others but you're better off going wide with sulfur elementals than letting them go wide on you (cuz torpor orb doesnt kill their stuff)

[Ace/Homebrew]

Maybe spellskite would be better option though.
You'll be disappointed with Spellskite. I was.


This list, quite frankly, looks horrible. Cmc5 in multiple slots, 2 Crystal Veins... It's plain bad. I would get my head checked if I ever sleeved this up. The rest of the T8 sports classics such as Fact or Fiction, and the ever popular Night's Whisper.
I think you are being unfair. The other 7 decklists in that top 8 are typical decks anyone would face in a competitive meta. Night's Whisper is very standard as a 1-of in Czech Pile, and FoF as a 1-of in Miracles doesn't seem wildly outlandish.
Here's the search results for 'Night's Whisper', filtering for Legacy, according to TC Decks: http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&main=Night%27s+Whisper&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

Crystal Vein is standard as the budget replacement of City of Traitors. I feel confident the pilot made that choice out of necessity and not because he thinks it is an improvement to the manabase.

I also feel the Stompy list is top-heavy, but if you look at that top 8 it's either slow control lists or decks we're favored against anyway (3/4 color lists and Lands). If the entire room was similar, then he picked the correct 75 for the day.

[CptHaddock]

For those of you running bottled cloister what matchups do you bring it in for? It doesn't seem like there is are very many decks out there that want to running a ton of discard. Is it because it's a CA engine that also synergies with bridge?

As an FYI the MTGO meta is very oversaturated with 4c Control decks so I imagine with the right luck you can easily go X-0 with 8 moons in your deck. Sammy's list looks a lot like the walker stompy list that JKory was rocking at GP Seattle a couple of years ago.

[pinkfrosting]

For those of you running bottled cloister what matchups do you bring it in for? It doesn't seem like there is are very many decks out there that want to running a ton of discard. Is it because it's a CA engine that also synergies with bridge?

As an FYI the MTGO meta is very oversaturated with 4c Control decks so I imagine with the right luck you can easily go X-0 with 8 moons in your deck. Sammy's list looks a lot like the walker stompy list that JKory was rocking at GP Seattle a couple of years ago.

I run cloister against d&t, 4c control, stoneblade, and miracles. Against decks running k-command I don't play it until my hand is empty. Having the 5th "draw 2 per turn" effect on top of your 4 chandra really helps mitigate flooding and helps us close the game before they find their answer in the form of basics, something to kill chalice, ee, bridge, etc...

When the new planeswalker rule comes into effect I plan on trying to replace it with chandra, pyromaster. Avaricious Dragon also worked in testing, although it can sometimes get awkward and you throw away a powerful card or two, but we can often do that with zero consequences. If I played a more aggressive build without bridge main I'd probably run that.

[pinkfrosting]

You'll be disappointed with Spellskite. I was.


I think you are being unfair. The other 7 decklists in that top 8 are typical decks anyone would face in a competitive meta. Night's Whisper is very standard as a 1-of in Czech Pile, and FoF as a 1-of in Miracles doesn't seem wildly outlandish.
Here's the search results for 'Night's Whisper', filtering for Legacy, according to TC Decks: http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&main=Night%27s+Whisper&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

Crystal Vein is standard as the budget replacement of City of Traitors. I feel confident the pilot made that choice out of necessity and not because he thinks it is an improvement to the manabase.

I also feel the Stompy list is top-heavy, but if you look at that top 8 it's either slow control lists or decks we're favored against anyway (3/4 color lists and Lands). If the entire room was similar, then he picked the correct 75 for the day.

Other than being top-heavy I agree, I think this list is innovative and it's exactly how I would approach an aggressive list in th current meta. A huge advantage of cmc 5 creatures is dodging fatal push. The creature suite in this list dodges everything except sac effects and STP. Replacing bridge with 4 additional sweepers gives you insurance against them winning the race.

I will say having played probably 400+ matches with this deck that cmc5 cards can be very hard to cast on curve though, and he's running 2 fewer mana sources than I do in a lower curve list. But he's done well in the challenges 2 weeks in a row, so maybe it's worked out for him so far.

[frogger42]

Other than being top-heavy I agree, I think this list is innovative and it's exactly how I would approach an aggressive list in th current meta. A huge advantage of cmc 5 creatures is dodging fatal push. The creature suite in this list dodges everything except sac effects and STP. Replacing bridge with 4 additional sweepers gives you insurance against them winning the race.

I will say having played probably 400+ matches with this deck that cmc5 cards can be very hard to cast on curve though, and he's running 2 fewer mana sources than I do in a lower curve list. But he's done well in the challenges 2 weeks in a row, so maybe it's worked out for him so far.

Fatal Push noted... I think this guy got really lucky. I run 3 more mana sources than this list plus I almost top out at cmc3; that said, i have trouble finding R every now and then (I don't run RR spells). Moons punish every deck in the T8 other than Miracles, which he can use Earthquake board effects to stabilize. It seems like he mulls into a Moon, then 5+ turns later scrounges up the lands to drop a threat. Sometimes my games are Chalice, sit behind Chalice until I rip a substantial threat. Except most of my games actually go really tight even after I land a prison piece. I'm still really against this uneven list.

Cards not represented - Thalia DnT, Goyf, Rean/Show, Storm combo. Fatties and Thalia all look like major problems for this deck.

The list seems doable, sort of, in this weird meta, but I would never ever take it into an open field. It looks less innovative and way more of a meta deck.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
I will play a medium sized turney tomorrow and will ride this baby the 1st time...
Would you guys be so kind and give me a short sideboarding guide for matchups like Grixis Delver, Team America, DnT & Elves?

Its easy to bring in the right cards (Volcanic Fallout, Abrade, Sulfur Elemental vs DnT) but I have problems in what to take out tbh.

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Quicksmith Rebel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Jaya Ballard Task Mage

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chrome Mox

11 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Abrade
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Trinisphere

I builded this list to fight challenging creature based MU's and wanted to get rid of "I do nothing execpt for attacking" things like Rabblemaster and replaced it with creatures that can attack and kill dudes...The clock vs unfair decks is of course slower which can hurt the combo MU's a little bit but I think I can live with this.

[NormalGuy]

Hey guys,
I will play a medium sized turney tomorrow and will ride this baby the 1st time...
Would you guys be so kind and give me a short sideboarding guide for matchups like Grixis Delver, Team America, DnT & Elves?

Its easy to bring in the right cards (Volcanic Fallout, Abrade, Sulfur Elemental vs DnT) but I have problems in what to take out tbh.

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Quicksmith Rebel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Jaya Ballard Task Mage

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chrome Mox

11 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Abrade
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Trinisphere

I builded this list to fight challenging creature based MU's and wanted to get rid of "I do nothing execpt for attacking" things like Rabblemaster and replaced it with creatures that can attack and kill dudes...The clock vs unfair decks is of course slower which can hurt the combo MU's a little bit but I think I can live with this.

Against D&T you'll want to take out Chalice and Trinisphere at least. Against elves chalice on 1 is the best, and ensnaring bridge is good too, but they have Rec Sage to blow them up. As always you need to kill wirewood symbiote as fast as possible to shut off their shenanigans. Early Blood Moon is also usually good if you can keep them off green, so you might want to drop blood moons for Volcanic Fallout if you are on the draw, and keep in blood moons on the play. I haven't had any problems racing delver decks by just attacking with a bunch of small creatures, but that's not going to work with your build I don't think.

But I think your deck might have a bigger problem with not having enough pressure. It looks like your main plan is going to be sitting behind bridge. In that case I would at least move the trinisphere's to the sideboard and put in 3x Koth of the Hammer, or maybe Sin Prodder. Your Volcanic Fallout's also hit all your own creatures, leaving you with just Chandra to do damage. Kozilek's return would be better then Volcanic Fallout against decks with Mother of Runes, but worse against blue decks.

Good luck tomorrow, it'll be interesting to hear how you do.

[Manipulato]

Against D&T you'll want to take out Chalice and Trinisphere at least. Against elves chalice on 1 is the best, and ensnaring bridge is good too, but they have Rec Sage to blow them up. As always you need to kill wirewood symbiote as fast as possible to shut off their shenanigans. Early Blood Moon is also usually good if you can keep them off green, so you might want to drop blood moons for Volcanic Fallout if you are on the draw, and keep in blood moons on the play. I haven't had any problems racing delver decks by just attacking with a bunch of small creatures, but that's not going to work with your build I don't think.

But I think your deck might have a bigger problem with not having enough pressure. It looks like your main plan is going to be sitting behind bridge. In that case I would at least move the trinisphere's to the sideboard and put in 3x Koth of the Hammer, or maybe Sin Prodder. Your Volcanic Fallout's also hit all your own creatures, leaving you with just Chandra to do damage. Kozilek's return would be better then Volcanic Fallout against decks with Mother of Runes, but worse against blue decks.

Good luck tomorrow, it'll be interesting to hear how you do.

Oh yeah Kozileks Return is colorless, totally forgot that.

Well my plan with this build is not to hide behind a bridge at all, its to control the board with Quicksmith, Pia+Kiran & Jaya by killing all the x/2s in the format. The clock is slower on an empty board because Rabblemaster is super agressive here but when theres sitting a 2/2 in the other side of the table hes a poor dude, my alternatives just kill this guy and swing for 3-4 damage.
I think Pia and Kiran Nalaar are a bit underplayed tbh.
The point about the antisynergy between my smaller dudes and sweepers is true yes but timing and sequencing can improve this fact a bit I think.

We will see how it worked out for me and maybe I talk the oposite afterwards ^^ Who knows...

[Ace/Homebrew]

Be aware that Quicksmith Rebel is only a 3/2 without an artifact in play (also know that tapping Trinisphere turns it off). If you are relying on him in X/2 creature heavy matchups then boarding out 7 artifacts is tempting fate. I have found CotV helpful against D&T. It stops at least 12 very important cards. I usually board out 3balls and some combination of Moons and Maguses.

I actually think you are wasting some board space because you have 4 Fiery Confluence in the main. Against a deck like Elves!, Pyrokinesis will be your best friend. I'd consider dropping an Elemental and Fallout for 2 kinesis.

I don't know how much you want to board against Team America... You're built to beat them.

Grixis you'll want Fallouts. I'd consider boarding out some 3balls (1... maaaybe 2) and Quicksmiths.



Good luck tomorrow! Your rounds will be short, so use the extra time to scout the room. It will help with the extremely important mulligan decisions you'll have to make throughout the day!

[pinkfrosting]

Be aware that Quicksmith Rebel is only a 3/2 without an artifact in play (also know that tapping Trinisphere turns it off). If you are relying on him in X/2 creature heavy matchups then boarding out 7 artifacts is tempting fate. I have found CotV helpful against D&T. It stops at least 12 very important cards. I usually board out 3balls and some combination of Moons and Maguses.

I actually think you are wasting some board space because you have 4 Fiery Confluence in the main. Against a deck like Elves!, Pyrokinesis will be your best friend. I'd consider dropping an Elemental and Fallout for 2 kinesis.

I don't know how much you want to board against Team America... You're built to beat them.

Grixis you'll want Fallouts. I'd consider boarding out some 3balls (1... maaaybe 2) and Quicksmiths.



Good luck tomorrow! Your rounds will be short, so use the extra time to scout the room. It will help with the extremely important mulligan decisions you'll have to make throughout the day!

Chalice is only good until they drop a flickerwisp. I consider it one of the weaker cards, it slows them down for the first few turns if you're lucky. Against them I cut trinisphere, magus, and 3 chalice. I leave in 4 moons because they can wreck us with wasteland/port. I board in 4 kozilek's return, 2 fallout, and 2 null rod which had actually been great lately because it's good in a lot of matchups. K-return is hugely underplayed and has won me countless games against d&t, elves, a few against the rare goblins player and maverick player. It kills teeg too which is important at times.

I board in 2 fallout against grixis and cut koth and one chandra. Trinisphere is great against tempo, I always run all 4. Resolving any lock piece is always priority here, the struggle afterward is dealing with the creatures they resolved before we lock them out. Chandra is often just a 4 mana flame slash in this scenario, I'd much rather have a sweeper or another prison card

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't disagree, but Wisping a chalice is most likely in game one. The dedicated D&T pilots I've talked too say they board out :w::w: spells for games 2 and 3. But of course, your mileage may vary. :wink:

[pinkfrosting]

I don't disagree, but Wisping a chalice is most likely in game one. The dedicated D&T pilots I've talked too say they board out :w::w: spells for games 2 and 3. But of course, your mileage may vary. :wink:

Flickerwisp is so insanely necessary against us I can't see a skilled player boarding them out. Ensnaring bridge is a total lock against them without flickerwisp or council's judgement, both WW spells.

Edit:: against common builds, of course there are outliers that run disenchant or mangara, but either way having a recruiter target with flexibility like flickerwisp is not something I'd board out in this matchup on their side of the table

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
so I'm back from my tournament and got to top 4, had a great run.

Round 1: Dark Maverick: 2:0

Round 2: Storm: 2:0

Round 3: BUG Midrange: 2:1

Round 4: Storm: 2:1

Round 5: Draw into Top 8

Quarterfinals: Lands 2:1

Semifinals: Death & Taxes 0:2

My list was:

14 Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Quicksmith Rebel
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Jaya Ballard Task Mage

27 Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chrome Mox

19 Lands
11 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Abrade
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Trinisphere

I had some good MU's exept for the Dnt in the semifinals.
I played poorly vs DnT in Round 7, with less brainfarts you can win here and there, but its still super hard to beat even with my strong sideboard vs them.

Chandra & Bridge were allstars and are just bonkers. Fiery Confluence is also a great improvement to the deck and makes it way stronger than in the past.
I also really liked my 2/2 split of Pia and Kiran Nalaar & Jaya instead of rabblemaster so far. I was able to just burn them under bridge while they have a army of dudes out. Quicksmith is also super sweet in this deck and I wouldnt leave home without it.

Greetings

[jandax]

How did you sideboard in the tournament?

[geneyquakes]

I don't disagree, but Wisping a chalice is most likely in game one. The dedicated D&T pilots I've talked too say they board out :w::w: spells for games 2 and 3. But of course, your mileage may vary. :wink:

As a DnT player, I would almost never cut Flickerwisp here. The only situation I would really consider cutting them is if I know I am playing against 3 or 4 Sulfur Elemental and just trim x/1s across the board, but even then as tutorable one-shots to hit Bridges and Chalices they are likely still worth having.

They are probably talking about Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger, Sanctum Prelate. Crusader is a fast clock and still fine, but dies to all kinds of stuff. Avenger dodges some removal/sweepers and has evasion, but can be awkward to cast especially if our Karakases end up as mountains. Sanctum Prelate can be reasonable on 2/3/4 to stop troublesome spells, but it is hard to cast, easy to kill, and you are basically just naming numbers at random. All of these are pretty reasonable places to look if you need cuts.

One of Flickerwisp's main jobs is dealing with troublesome permanents, and this deck is full of them. Just getting rid of Bridges would probably be enough to warrant inclusion, and Flickering Chalices and Chrome Moxen is also very relevant disruption.

[Manipulato]

How did you sideboard in the tournament?

Puh, dont know it to 100% anymore but I think like this:

Vs Dark Maverick
+4 Volcanic Fallout
+3 Abrade
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Trinisphere

Vs Storm
+4 Leyline of the Void
+1 Trinisphere
-4 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Jaya Ballard Task Mage (I think^^)

VS BUG Midrange
To be hones...Nothing :laugh: I really thought about Fallout or Abrade vs Shamans but in the end I thought the MD is already really good vs them, he also had just 2 Abrupt Decay in his 75! Thx Top ban^^

Lands
+4 Leyline of the Void
+1 Trinisphere (I think?)
-2 Fiery Confluence
-2 Jaya Ballard
Not sure anymore here tbh

Death & Taxes
+4 Volcanic Fallout
+3 Abrade
+3 Sulfur Elemental
-4 Chalice of the Void (I think this is correct especially OTD!)
-3 Trinisphere
-3 Magus of the Moon

In both games vs DnT Flickerwhisp was an allstar and removed my Bridge for a final strike with huge Crusaders equipped with Batterskull and Sword of Fire and Ice, pro red didnt made it easier for me...I even lost a game with double Sulfur Elemental in play because Batterskull is a bitch and he played around Fiery Confluence by keeping up 3 mana to bounce it in response. In the early game he was also able to become the monarch and drew a fucking million cards for the rest of the game because bridge hindered me to attack:rolleyes: It was super lame for me...How I said earlier, I made 2 really stupid mistakes and if I had played more concentrated I would have won minimum one game of it...This deck really sucks vs DnT and game one really showed me why...I had the "perfect" opener for this deck, T1 Chalice on one, T2 Blood Moon but well what should I say double plains into Stoneforge Mystic gets around it^^.

Highlights were that I boarded totally wrong vs my R2 oponent with Storm because he only showed me Fetch, Underground Sea, Ponder -> Scoop to Blood Moon + Chalice...I thought he was playing some sort of Delver, I knew him personally and was thinking that he played some Delver in the past but hell no :laugh: The genius thing about this boarding error was that my stupid Abrade destroyed his LED in response to a followed up spell and he fizzled xD xD This was so fucking great!

The one game I lost to Lands was also super hilarious, I lost the game with Blood Moon, Chalice on 0 (VS Mox Diamond), Bridge AND Leyline in play :eek:
He just resolved a Molten Vortex and Tireless Tracker, this combination was just a pure value machine and fucked me up...This was the only game where I really missed and needed Hazoret because of his indestructible ability...

[Medea_]

I played Sammy's Red Prison list from those Legacy Challenge events on MTGO at a pair of side events in DC this weekend. I went 3-1 in the first and 1-3 in the second. I hit a bad string of matchups (Reanimator getting early Iona twice followed by Sneak and Show) in the second event and was incredibly unlucky against a Lands player (Chaos Warping a basic forest and having my opponent redraw it the same turn was frustrating, especially after he had Gambled for it the previous time I Chaos Warped it...). I wasn't necessarily sold on all the five drops as being necessary, but Rolling Earthquake was pretty nuts. I'll certainly be going up to a fourth Rolling Earthquake in my version, though I'm not necessarily sold on the Crystal Vein. I didn't really sideboard very much in the event, but the board seemed reasonable.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Do you think the Crystal Veins were intentional tech or just budget replacements for CoT? I'm guessing they were budget replacements...

[CptHaddock]

Do you think the Crystal Veins were intentional tech or just budget replacements for CoT? I'm guessing they were budget replacements...

I'm assuming budget since he had 2 cities in his original list and went up 3 in his lists after. I'm not really sure why they as as expensive on MTGO as they are in paper. :rolleyes:


I played Sammy's Red Prison list from those Legacy Challenge events on MTGO at a pair of side events in DC this weekend. I went 3-1 in the first and 1-3 in the second. I hit a bad string of matchups (Reanimator getting early Iona twice followed by Sneak and Show) in the second event and was incredibly unlucky against a Lands player (Chaos Warping a basic forest and having my opponent redraw it the same turn was frustrating, especially after he had Gambled for it the previous time I Chaos Warped it...). I wasn't necessarily sold on all the five drops as being necessary, but Rolling Earthquake was pretty nuts. I'll certainly be going up to a fourth Rolling Earthquake in my version, though I'm not necessarily sold on the Crystal Vein. I didn't really sideboard very much in the event, but the board seemed reasonable.

Did you end up winning your round 3 (I think) elves matchup? I was the stompy player playing right next to you getting crushed by UB reanimator.

[Medea_]

Yeah, I got that one. First event was 3 wins vs Infect and 1 loss to Elves (needed land 4 for the 3x Fiery Confluence in my hand). Second event was a win against Czech Pile and losses to Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and Lands.

[claulis]

Has anyone tried the Goblin Stompy Version of this deck? I saw a decklist on MTG Top8 and I played a couple games with it last night on MTGO. I felt like the 3 games I played the matchups were better than the other list I play. For the losses to Miracles I lost to Jace TMS both games. (the times he bottomed my card the next card I drew was a land 9/10 times, was very heart breaking, if I would have drawn anything other than a land, would have been good).

D&T 2-0
Pile 2-1
Miracles 1-2

Here is a list for reference:

20 LANDS

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain

24 CREATURES

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Goblin Settler
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Moggcatcher
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Stingscourger

16 OTHER SPELLS

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere


SIDEBOARD

4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Manipulato]

Noob question...Can I drop a land with the +1 ability of Chandra? The wording says "You may cast that card" but lands are no spells and therefore cant be cast, right? The wording should be "play" then, right?

[TLK]

Noob question...Can I drop a land with the +1 ability of Chandra? The wording says "You may cast that card" but lands are no spells and therefore cant be cast, right? The wording should be "play" then, right?

Good question. Unfortunately, you can't since you technically don't "cast" lands. You are correct.

[Jelmerz77]

Noob question...Can I drop a land with the +1 ability of Chandra? The wording says "You may cast that card" but lands are no spells and therefore cant be cast, right? The wording should be "play" then, right?

nope... Lands = 2 Damage

[Manipulato]

Thx a bunch, thought so...

[jandax]

And don't let anyone play a land off Chandra either now that you know!

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[harbingerofthevoid]

Played an 18 person this weekend. Went in 5th to the top 8 and we all split after that.


//Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Chrome Mox

//Creature
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Sin Prodder
2 Hazoret the Fervent

//Enchantment
4 Blood Moon

//Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
1 Crystal Vein

//Planeswalker
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer

//Sorcery
4 Fiery Confluence
2 Rolling Earthquake

//Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Volcanic Fallout


R1 Infect 2-1
G1 Pretty much got there with goblin tokens after a board wipe
G2 poisoned
G3 I drop Magus, they goofed a didn't fetch in response. Pretty much sealed that. 3sphere and Hazoret followed.
SB: -2 Sin Prodder -1 Koth : +3 Volcanic Fallout

R2 DnT 0-2
G1 Seemed like he ran 8 flickerwisp. I die DnT style.
G2 Keep a weird hand of like 3 mountain, 2 Fallout 1, Rolling Earthquke and a Magus thinking he could just extend out I and could sweep and start in. I Earthquake t2 killing Thalia. VF to take out SFM. VF to take another SFM. Confluence to hit Jitte. Magus then run out of any gas and get Flickerwisp w/ Batterskull and SFM (I think) with SoFaI, ouch.
SB: -2 Sin Prodder, -1 Koth, -3 Trinisphere : +3 Volcanic Fallout, +3 Sulfur Elemental
Note: 2 Rabbles hit the board in 1 game. Usually a great place to be. Against DnT, the "must attack" clause killed one of them. First strike, oof.

R3 Burn 2-0
G1 He gets Guide. I get Chalice on 1. He gets in a few points I get 3sphere. He held a 1 land "all bolt" hand. Oops. Magus and Chandra beat him.
G2 Chalice on 1. Chalice on 2. He got Eidolon and Guide in play. 3sphere. I play Rolling Earthquake off a cast Chrome Mox taking 4 from Eidolon and 2 for Rolling Earthquake and 2 from my Ancient Tomb to clear the board. Chandra and Magus win again.
SB: -4 Blood Moon : +3 Sulfur Elemental, +1 3sphere
Note: Sulfur Elementals just for more beats. If i have trade creature in combat, fine. Just needed more sources of hurt.

R4 2-0 Czech Pile - Had Tasigur.
G1 Got chalice in 1 and a moon in play. Chandra and Hazoret.
G2 Got chalice in 1 and a moon in play. Chandra. Moon man beats, Chandra burns and got ultimate on Chandra.
SB: -2 Prodder : +2 Fallout

R5 Czech Pile
We ID.

Top 8 same opp as R5. Table split the prize pool. He was sitting next to the R4 game so we both knew what we were on. Hopefully would have been more of the same.

Notes: I only have 2 City of Traitors. I was planning 1 Lotus Petal instead of Crystal Vein but swapped it out the morning of. I had 3 Rolling Earthquake and 3 Fiery Confluence main. Took out a RE and added the FC. Put Quicksmith in it's place. Never played vs any of the 3 Reanimator decks or the 1 Sneak and Show deck so never put in Bridges or Leylines where needed. The Quicksmith plan was any deck I needed Bridges, he came in. That never happened. I needed sweepers in most my matches.

[bruizar]

This is relevant for Dragon Stompy. Replace lightning bolt for Chandra or Fiery Confluence.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJdsTnpW0AEezSp.jpg:large

[Raizen884]

Nah, I think its such a nonbo having that set up on dragon stompy, I mean you first weaken your wipes/C.A taking Fiery and Chandra, then you probably need to take some sol lands or mountains to stuff in Dark Depths which weakens the mana base/explosiveness. Lightning bolt is okay on its on, but its also a nonbo in a Chalice deck, from everything its just a pretty pity interaction that I don't think is better than Hexmage/Thespian, its a 3 card combo that can see play on another shell(I still can't think of one), it might look intuitive here, but neither lightning bolt or dark depths looks to actually help the deck.

[jandax]

Hmm and I thought the DD would still get its counters ETB [emoji55]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[bruizar]

Nah, I think its such a nonbo having that set up on dragon stompy, I mean you first weaken your wipes/C.A taking Fiery and Chandra, then you probably need to take some sol lands or mountains to stuff in Dark Depths which weakens the mana base/explosiveness. Lightning bolt is okay on its on, but its also a nonbo in a Chalice deck, from everything its just a pretty pity interaction that I don't think is better than Hexmage/Thespian, its a 3 card combo that can see play on another shell(I still can't think of one), it might look intuitive here, but neither lightning bolt or dark depths looks to actually help the deck.

Stillv ery relevant for this deck though. If the lands player plays a dark depths and punishing fires Magus, you're screwed even faster.

[procobrito]

How the new rule interact with Scorched Ruin or Lotus Vale erratas?

If the "would" effect is overwrite, could be interesting to run one or two of those... 7 mana on turn three with Scorched Ruin and tomb/city... make the opponent think twice before remove the moon effect, if they don't have a wasteland

[Arikrat]

Concerning Depths and moon effect: the fact that Depths comes into play with counters isn't a triggered ability. So it does get the counters and is a non basic mountain with 10 ice counters. For the same reason Cavern of souls entering the Battlefield is a mountain with a chosen creature type chosen for it.
I had the same situation in tournament and the head judge answered like this.

On a different matter: I don't know if the subject was already discussed but what about Torpor Orb against DnT? It gets rid of all the EtB effect. Looks pretty strong to me but is it relevent to add it to the SB just for one deck?

[bruizar]

Concerning Depths and moon effect: the fact that Depths comes into play with counters isn't a triggered ability. So it does get the counters and is a non basic mountain with 10 ice counters. For the same reason Cavern of souls entering the Battlefield is a mountain with a chosen creature type chosen for it.
I had the same situation in tournament and the head judge answered like this.


There was a rules change yesterday.

[Gheizen64]

How the new rule interact with Scorched Ruin or Lotus Vale erratas?

If the "would" effect is overwrite, could be interesting to run one or two of those... 7 mana on turn three with Scorched Ruin and tomb/city... make the opponent think twice before remove the moon effect, if they don't have a wasteland

They enter and you don't have to sacrifice. Seems more interesting than the depth plan which seems too convoluted... Also being able to sac a traitors could make it not as terrible MAYBE? Especially if you sorcerous spyglass wasteland.

[Bobbunny]

// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Chrome Mox

// 25 Creature
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Moggcatcher
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Settler
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Murderous Redcap
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

// 4 Enchantment
4 Blood Moon

// 20 Land
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Mountain


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge

// 5 Creature
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Fiery Confluence




Thoughts on my Moggcatcher list? Sharpshooter is in the main because of an uptick (that I see) in Pyromancer and X/1s overall. Hasn't been performing well though so I'll probably cut it/move it to the board. Fiery Confluence is a hell of a card, but the board wiping capabilities are pretty ehhhh because it does kill your own gobbos. Chandra isn't in the list because Moggcatcher is the value/win engine. I mainly play Eldrazi 10-post so I'm new to the archetype, just wanted to get some suggestions for my current list.

[Ace/Homebrew]

List looks fine! How has Purphoros been?

Question for the group at large:
With the change in rules for Blood Moon and Magus, does it still make sense to run any Cavern of Souls in Mogg Stompy lists?

[Bobbunny]

List looks fine! How has Purphoros been?

Question for the group at large:
With the change in rules for Blood Moon and Magus, does it still make sense to run any Cavern of Souls in Mogg Stompy lists?
It's been pretty mediocre, it's there as another threat and honestly it can probably be cut for a goblin dude (Skirk Prospector + Sharpshooter). I did manage to wombo someone out though with moggcatcher into Siege-Gang +Kiki-Jiki.


What's the reason for running Cavern? The deck seems to be pretty strong against control decks.

[frogger42]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/captivatingcrew.html

No idea if the image worked (probably not). Captivating Crew from Ixalan:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/captivatingcrew.html

Zac posted about it on FB, and I figure I'd steal his thunder here. I think it's pretty beastly in non-Bridge builds, and what I want to do is to eat the creature after I swing with it. Thoughts on what might do that? Other than Diamond Valley (which is going to be a mountain anyway)? Seems like a good card to Show in, methinks.

[ZTurgeon]

Thoughts on my Moggcatcher list? Sharpshooter is in the main because of an uptick (that I see) in Pyromancer and X/1s overall. Hasn't been performing well though so I'll probably cut it/move it to the board. Fiery Confluence is a hell of a card, but the board wiping capabilities are pretty ehhhh because it does kill your own gobbos. Chandra isn't in the list because Moggcatcher is the value/win engine. I mainly play Eldrazi 10-post so I'm new to the archetype, just wanted to get some suggestions for my current list.

You have identified the problem with your list, and the problem with all current goblin lists: No Chandra and No Fiery Confluence.

What you have presented is a fine list if it were a year ago, but until they give a reason to run Moggcatcher, he's just been outclassed.

When we got Confluence, many saw it was incredibly strong, but it went against the current builds of the time. Now that Miracles is gone, the need for being incredibly threat dense disappeared. Combine the lack of need for a high volume of threats and the printing of resilient ones like Chandra and Hazoret, you can see why most people moved to just main decking ensnaring bridges and moved the philosophy of the deck from "Use lock pieces as disruption and win quickly" to "Pile on lock pieces and win eventually".

Additionally, with Miracles moving out, there are not too many swords to plowshares running around, but a higher volume of fatal pushes. This has lead Hazoret to mostly be unstoppable once she hits the field.

So it's not that your list is bad. Infact, it looks very good for what legacy was, but right now until more tools pop up, legacy has moved past the archtype.

[ZTurgeon]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/captivatingcrew.html

No idea if the image worked (probably not). Captivating Crew from Ixalan:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/captivatingcrew.html

Zac posted about it on FB, and I figure I'd steal his thunder here. I think it's pretty beastly in non-Bridge builds, and what I want to do is to eat the creature after I swing with it. Thoughts on what might do that? Other than Diamond Valley (which is going to be a mountain anyway)? Seems like a good card to Show in, methinks.

While sacrificing things would be great, it seems like a bit to much work. Where I think this card could actually show up is in that sideboard spot that Ashen Rider sometimes occupies. It is a weaker effect than Ashen Rider, but the card is castable and allows proactive play. Additionally, when boarding out lock pieces for particular matchups, having your specialized hate as castable bodies is a great boon. I means that if you win into a matchup where all your hate is bad (Looking at you D&T), having cards to board in that atleast do something is worthwhile.

[jandax]

It's been pretty mediocre, it's there as another threat and honestly it can probably be cut for a goblin dude (Skirk Prospector + Sharpshooter). I did manage to wombo someone out though with moggcatcher into Siege-Gang +Kiki-Jiki.


What's the reason for running Cavern? The deck seems to be pretty strong against control decks.

Cavern ensures play lines like sticking a magus or moggcatcher or Rabblemaster, thus negating counter magic. Have won games because of it.

I also think you're missing out not playing chandra.

[frogger42]

You have identified the problem with your list, and the problem with all current goblin lists: No Chandra and No Fiery Confluence.

What you have presented is a fine list if it were a year ago, but until they give a reason to run Moggcatcher, he's just been outclassed.

When we got Confluence, many saw it was incredibly strong, but it went against the current builds of the time. Now that Miracles is gone, the need for being incredibly threat dense disappeared. Combine the lack of need for a high volume of threats and the printing of resilient ones like Chandra and Hazoret, you can see why most people moved to just main decking ensnaring bridges and moved the philosophy of the deck from "Use lock pieces as disruption and win quickly" to "Pile on lock pieces and win eventually".

Additionally, with Miracles moving out, there are not too many swords to plowshares running around, but a higher volume of fatal pushes. This has lead Hazoret to mostly be unstoppable once she hits the field.

So it's not that your list is bad. Infact, it looks very good for what legacy was, but right now until more tools pop up, legacy has moved past the archtype.

I think I half-agree with this. Wizards is always printing new Goblins, and Moggcatcher will catch a beastly one again one of these days; but still, is Moggcatcher outclassed? Probably not, not in the right build. I run 4x Imperial Recruiter right now, and if I can find the room I'll jam 1x Moggcatcher. It still is super powerful. But the philosophy of my deck is different - no Bridges, no Chandras, and it doesn't rely on Moggcatcher (which is easy to deal with) as its card advantage engine. I use a handful of equipment instead for that.

Hazoret has been a total beast with my equipment, basically as my version of True-Name Nemesis - except with haste. So I'm a little reluctant to swap out 3x Haz for Moggcatcher + 2 Silver Bullets. But it might be worth experimenting.

As for Stompy (creature-based Chalice Aggro) vs Stax (non-creature Chalice Control), some of the Stax lists here have put up something in the way of results. My Stompy list has too, and I won a Volc with it. I think if you face a lot of DnT (and you have Recruiters!) Stompy is actually slightly favored in that MU - Thalia is all of a Youthful Knight - whereas Stax totally struggles against it, she's a Sphere of Resistance. I'm a little salty about the new Magus + Dark Depths interaction, so I think I'm going to pilot something with Humility for a bit because that card just got a whole lot stronger.

[zangoasyl]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/133/971/636409974760970975.jpeg

transforms to:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ixalan/29620-spitfire-bastion

Now that's something I'm looking forward!

[pinkfrosting]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/133/971/636409974760970975.jpeg

transforms to:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ixalan/29620-spitfire-bastion

Now that's something I'm looking forward!

While this is sweet, the flip side doesn't work under moon. It's basically just outpost seige most of the time in our deck. The one match up I can see wanting this in is vs grixis control and portent miracles. Having a land that deals 3 every turn seems like a nightmare for those decks to answer.

When ixalan releases I plan on trying chandra, pyromaster as an extra draw engine. That card had a ton of utility in a lot of match ups but we haven't been able to run it before with 4 Chandra, ToD.

[zangoasyl]

Well you don't have to transform if you plan to or if you already have sticked a moon!
And this draw engine synergies with bridge...

[Avez]

Isn't Bottled Cloister just better than this?

[Gheizen64]

Isn't Bottled Cloister just better than this?

Cloister is more easily destroyed and don't flip to a land that bolt for 2R. The issue is that blood moon is one of the best cards of the deck and you can't really run both.

[ZTurgeon]

Isn't Bottled Cloister just better than this?

The thing about cloister is that it's a big risk against some decks after board, where this would likely be a board card. If you cloister against the wrong deck and they shatter it, you lose your hand. Like, let's say you are facing a deck like Czech Pile, something that you would love to have a howling mine effect for, and you stick a bridge and a Cloister.

Then they Kolaghan's Command your Cloister and get back their snapcaster mage. Suddenly instead of being in a good spot, you are in an actively bad one.

Cloister is only "better" because of it's synergy with bridge, but overall, exiling a card for the turn is basically the same thing in this style deck because it doesn't really play reactive cards. If you exile a land, you just always play the land. If you exile a spell, you play that spell 95% of the time unless you need something incredibly specific (need a specific lock peice or sweeper normally).

[CptHaddock]

I ended up playing Stompy at EE with a strong start but the wheels kind of came out at the end for a final record of x-3. I lost 0-2 to D&T, 1-2 to Grixis Delver and 1-2 to UW Miracles. The lotus petal tech was pretty clutch, i've had a few matches where it's been beneficial to just have that turn 1 explosive hand without having to exile something to chrome mox. Kudos to whoever started running it. Minus my round 1 opponent who was also on dragon stompy, most of my matches ended up being against greedy manabase decks so I won the stompy roulette with those.

So out of curiosity are hands with 2 mountains, and a bunch of good stuff that is 3 cmc + keepable? Would you keep a hand like this against D&T?

mountain, mountain, sulfur elemental, fiery confluence, chandra, ensnaring bridge, sudden demise.

2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sin Prodder
1 Koth of the Hammer

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Sudden Shock
3 Sudden Demise
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

[pinkfrosting]

So out of curiosity are hands with 2 mountains, and a bunch of good stuff that is 3 cmc + keepable? Would you keep a hand like this against D&T?

mountain, mountain, sulfur elemental, fiery confluence, chandra, ensnaring bridge, sudden demise.

I would keep the hand, but you are very much at the mercy of variance as far as drawing enough lands to cast all the cards in your hand. I have lost many games in the early turns to D&T to Thalia + Port Lock. Despite our deck being full of basics we're mostly trying to resolve CMC3 and CMC4 non-creature cards against their deck, and without library manipulation and an average of only 23-24 actual permanent mana sources we are actually pretty weak to this form of mana denial. Even with our deck being almost half mana sources, that still means you're only ~50% likely to draw a mana each turn. This means that on average keeping a two mountain hand you may not be able to cast your 4CMC non-creature card until turn 5-6, which may be too late, especially if they land a mom or two.

I feel like I win most postboard games where I can stabilize with 5 mana sources behind a bridge in the early stages of the game. There's a lot of strategy involved in setting up redundancy so we don't lost to flickerwisp shenanigans and SoFaI, but I feel very comfortable if I can get to that stage and resolve a board wipe or two. I also play with 4 Kozilek's return which I truly believe to be the best card against D&T over sulfur elemental which seems to be more popular.

[beebles]

So out of curiosity are hands with 2 mountains, and a bunch of good stuff that is 3 cmc + keepable? Would you keep a hand like this against D&T?

mountain, mountain, sulfur elemental, fiery confluence, chandra, ensnaring bridge, sudden demise.



That is a absolutely sick hand, just need to hit one mana source. This deck does not mull spectacularly well, and your 6 is almost guaranteed to be worse.

I came in 10th at eternal extravaganza with the prisonish version.

Lost my win and in to stupid miracles with like 10 basics and MD back to basics. Felt like the most miserable match up ever.

I have no idea how to beat that deck.

[jandax]

Besides Sulfuric vortex, we straight lose to Energy Field (with RiP out). Found that out last sunday

[Manipulato]

Moon Stompy had a really solid run at EE7, good work guys! 10th+11th place is a good finish for this size...

1. Eli Kasis - Turbo Depths
2. Patrick Owens - Burn
3. Sean Friffith - Czech Pile
4. Daniel Miller - Miracles
5. Michael Woiten - ANT
6. Jack Wang - ANT
7. Eetai Ben-Sasson - Red and Taxes
8. James Baxter - ANT
9. Bob Huang - Grixis Delver
10. Warren Liem - Moon Stompy
11. Anthony Loman - Moon Stompy
12. Andy Alt - Grixis Delver
13. Michael Mapson - Esper Delver
14. Michael Keller - Dredge
15. Ben Katz - BUG
16. Joe Brennan - BUG

By the way, what do you guys think about a list with 4 Quicksmith Rebell MD? I would replace 4 Mountain with 4 Great Furnace to support the consistancy of Quicksmith in this case. I´m just not sure how this change in the manabase would impact the susceptibility for oposing Wastelands or something. There are often games where we just can land a T2 Moon effect so I love it to open with Mountain go T2 Sol land + Moon to play around Wasteland, I think there will be games where I have to open with Furnace and get Wastelanded which can hurt us...On the other side we have a super strong Quicksmith, I really like this card and was very pleased with it. Legacy has just so many dudes which die to a classic shock and on a empty board he pushes for 5 damage each turn which is not thaaaat worse than Rabblemaster. He also works much better under Bridge or when the oponent has a stupid 2/2 dude on the board.

What do you guys think about this change?

My current list for reference:

14 Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Quicksmith Rebel (Played 2 Pia + Kiran Nalaar before)
2 Hazoret the Fervent (Kicked the 2 Jaya for this dude)

27 Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Chrome Mox

19 Lands
7 Mountain
4 Great Furnace (4 additonal Mountain before)
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Kozileks Return
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Abrade
2 Sudden Shock
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Trinisphere

The sideboard is now focussed on beating DnT + Delver decks, I played the full 4 Fallout before because the uncountable ability is very important vs Delver but RR plus the damage can be a problem from time to time, Kozileks return is better vs DnT because of devoid and just costs R so I made a solid 2/2 split to stay flexible vs both.
Same goes for the 2/2 split of Abrade and Sudden Shock vs those MU´s. The uncountable ability is just so mighty vs Delver and also really solid vs DnT because it shuts down the whole Flickerwhisp/Mother/Vial/SFM shenagians...I found Sulfur Elemental good vs DnT but not really more than that tbh, if we need to wipe the board with Fiery Confluence or a boarded sweeper he dies too and he cant get around a Batterskull/Revoker or whatever...

[ZTurgeon]

Besides Sulfuric vortex, we straight lose to Energy Field (with RiP out). Found that out last sunday

So that's not 100% true. It is certainly a painful combo but if you have 1 of 2 sideboard cards you can escape it. If you have Chaos Warp you can warp your way out of it. Additionally, if you have null rods or needles (or i guess now spyglasses), you can name helm and try to get a chalice on 4. This seems weird but I have decked several people after they RiP/Energy Fielded me because if you just pile on all of your lock pieces and have a way to get milled out by helm, they often can't win and are likely lower on cards in deck than you are. This has happened enough that it actually seems like a legit plan if you can't disrupt them before it goes down.

[jandax]

This guy had land tax going so yeah i see your line of play as being the only way to win. Anarchy would also pseudo help bc it would nuke the rip and thus energy field would go to the graveyard. Was my first time seeing the deck in a tournament. Chaos warp and ratchet bomb are options for permanent removal

[Curby]

I'd like to confirm a few things.


This deck does not mull spectacularly well, and your 6 is almost guaranteed to be worse.

Independent of whether to mull that specific hand, I thought this deck DOES mull well. My understanding of a deck that mulls well is a deck that doesn't need a great number of cards to win: it only needs a few, targeted, powerful cards for a given matchup. That deck can then sacrifice raw card count for getting the bombs that it needs. 8Moon is exactly that sort of deck. If you can T1 Chalice or Trinisphere, that's often enough of a tempo swing that you can claw back from your mull-to-4 opening. I'd love to hear any reasoning to the contrary.


If you exile a land, you just always play the land. If you exile a spell, you play that spell 95% of the time unless you need something incredibly specific (need a specific lock peice or sweeper normally).

If you're talking about the cannons in the quote, how are you playing exiled land? The card says you can cast an exiled non-land card. Lands exiled with the Cannons stay exiled, unless something else is going on.

[Manipulato]

I'd like to confirm a few things.



Independent of whether to mull that specific hand, I thought this deck DOES mull well. My understanding of a deck that mulls well is a deck that doesn't need a great number of cards to win: it only needs a few, targeted, powerful cards for a given matchup. That deck can then sacrifice raw card count for getting the bombs that it needs. 8Moon is exactly that sort of deck. If you can T1 Chalice or Trinisphere, that's often enough of a tempo swing that you can claw back from your mull-to-4 opening. I'd love to hear any reasoning to the contrary.



If you're talking about the cannons in the quote, how are you playing exiled land? The card says you can cast an exiled non-land card. Lands exiled with the Cannons stay exiled, unless something else is going on.

+1 I also think this deck mulls good for the same reasons you mentioned

[jandax]

Have won on multiple mulls to 4. Sounds like a case of the Mondays

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Ace/Homebrew]

First off, congrats beebles! :wink:

Secondly, I've found this deck mulligans decently (better than most) and if both players mulligan, we are generally favored in the cripple fight.
My reasoning is exactly what has already been stated. If we land a Moon or Chalice on the first turn, it is likely we've nullified several cards in the opponent's hand (which is arguably like making them mulligan to 4 in many cases).

[frogger42]

First off, congrats beebles! :wink:

Secondly, I've found this deck mulligans decently (better than most) and if both players mulligan, we are generally favored in the cripple fight.
My reasoning is exactly what has already been stated. If we land a Moon or Chalice on the first turn, it is likely we've nullified several cards in the opponent's hand (which is arguably like making them mulligan to 4 in many cases).

Awesome finish Beebles.

I disagree with this deck being easy mulling. You need a lot of mana to really get going - basically 3 for everything you cast, up to 4 depending on the build. I curve out at 3 tops, except for 3 cards, and I can mull to 6, but not 5, depending on what I end up with in hand. If you mull into Tomb + Chalice, and Chalice resolves (maybe half the time?), then you can slow the game enough to draw the lands you need to catch up on board state. Otherwise, it's basically 3-4 cards to get to 3 mana for your main heavy-hitters. Tomb + City are card advantage for you, too, and if you mull but don't hit them, get pwned basically.

[NormalGuy]

Besides Sulfuric vortex, we straight lose to Energy Field (with RiP out). Found that out last sunday

Jaya Ballard destroys blue permanents. You also have the options of Pyroblast/REB/Active Volcano if you don't mind the non-bo with chalice. Chaos Warp is probably the most useful though as I can imagine it being useful against other decks too.

[bruizar]

Jaya Ballard destroys blue permanents. You also have the options of Pyroblast/REB/Active Volcano if you don't mind the non-bo with chalice. Chaos Warp is probably the most useful though as I can imagine it being useful against other decks too.

I think Chaos Orb is the cleanest answer.

[jandax]

I think Chaos Orb is the cleanest answer.I like this guy


Moving on: as a long proponent of goblin stompy I'm pretty sure it's had it's day. In the face of a tempo oriented meta (like mine with delver and combo all over) I'm fairly sure that running clunky four drops isnt the way to have fun in a tournament. Prison however is better positioned to work in a tempo metagame. It runs more value cards that aren't as susceptible to the opponent's strategy as running out rabblemasters and moggcatchers to get bolted, fire'd, plowed, decayed, farted at. While synergistic the goblin build is a blast to play but fragile. So moving forward i like leaning on Quicksmith Rebel and maindecl bridge. With proxies, i also like Sorcerous spy glass. It'd be wonderful if it cantripped but I'm happy with the info it provides. In the early game it shuts off things like DRS and fetchlands and in the late game its a target for QSR or it shuts off their wincon ect. Its easily another hate piece that buys us time to develope faster than the opponent. It's not any radical development but I'm happy with this list:

4 Magus
4 Moon
4 chalice
3 3ball
3 spy glass
3 bridge
4 Chandra
4 QSR
2 fiery confluence
2 hazoret
4ssg
4 chrome mox
11 mountain
8 sol land

In the sideboard there is a smattering of extra confluences and the 4th bridge, gy hate, and matchup specific cards. With this configuration you can easily board out groups of cards and bring in supplements or silver bullets without affecting the gameplan much.


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[frogger42]

Moving on: as a long proponent of goblin stompy I'm pretty sure it's had it's day. In the face of a tempo oriented meta (like mine with delver and combo all over) I'm fairly sure that running clunky four drops isnt the way to have fun in a tournament. Prison however is better positioned to work in a tempo metagame. It runs more value cards that aren't as susceptible to the opponent's strategy as running out rabblemasters and moggcatchers to get bolted, fire'd, plowed, decayed, farted at. While synergistic the goblin build is a blast to play but fragile. So moving forward i like leaning on Quicksmith Rebel and maindecl bridge.

I totally get what you're saying about Moggcatcher. It's a 7 mana tutor effect, one that's fairly easy to Bolt (a little tougher to Decay). It's a lot of investment to try to win the game. I think it's still fairly fine, at least in theory, because you're ideally locking out your opponent one way or another, and maybe a ham sandwich could get there at that point. I don't think Moggcatcher is great without the lock, but I think it's a rare tutor effect in Red, and still deserves consideration.

Rabbles is another matter altogether. I'd dropped Rabblemaster T1, and if it resolves, I win at least 75% of those games. I won a match vs BR Reanimator based on that (which is a horrible, horrible MU for us). Rabblemaster is another Moon effect for me, another R2 spell that spells "gg" to me. Rabbles gets the Force often enough, and even when bolted, I get a dude on the play. Add Jitte, and now your opponent's on the back foot again.

QSR takes time to set up, an artifact and another mana. Rabble is just another T1 play for a deck that makes big T1 plays that set the pace of the game. I personally like that flow better.

And also, to reiterate, Bridge gives your opponent a lot of time to draw their outs. Even if you're dealing 2 dmg a turn, how many draws does your opponent get to find an answer? 8, 9 cards? Sometimes you have Bridge and no pressure, even. I'm a strong believer that every deck has an out to Prison locks, and you should close out the game as soon as you can after you land a piece. It's not going to last that long.

I only run 2 Chaos Orb, both in the SB. Eh, it's okay.

[NormalGuy]

Rabbles is another matter altogether. I'd dropped Rabblemaster T1, and if it resolves, I win at least 75% of those games. I won a match vs BR Reanimator based on that (which is a horrible, horrible MU for us). Rabblemaster is another Moon effect for me, another R2 spell that spells "gg" to me. Rabbles gets the Force often enough, and even when bolted, I get a dude on the play. Add Jitte, and now your opponent's on the back foot again.

QSR takes time to set up, an artifact and another mana. Rabble is just another T1 play for a deck that makes big T1 plays that set the pace of the game. I personally like that flow better.

And also, to reiterate, Bridge gives your opponent a lot of time to draw their outs. Even if you're dealing 2 dmg a turn, how many draws does your opponent get to find an answer? 8, 9 cards? Sometimes you have Bridge and no pressure, even. I'm a strong believer that every deck has an out to Prison locks, and you should close out the game as soon as you can after you land a piece. It's not going to last that long.

I only run 2 Chaos Orb, both in the SB. Eh, it's okay.

I hope you mean Chaos Warp, because Orb is banned.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on bridge, I find it's one of the best cards in the deck. It's pretty easy to attack with your dudes through bridge and prevent your opponents guys from being able to attack back.

I agree with QSR being to slow/difficult to setup, I didn't really like it when I tested it.

I'm currently running a 2/2 split of Rabblemaster and Hanweir Garrison, and they are both really strong but Rabblemaster has some annoying downside so I think I'm going to switch to 4 Garrison and move some Kozilek Return to the mainboard. Garrison doesn't die to Return, and you don't have to attack with the tokens he creates which can be important to leave back blockers sometimes. I also have 2 hangarback's in which I'll leave because they synergize well with sweepers too.

I've also been eyeing up Cunning Sparkmage or Goblin Sharpshooter, but I'm pretty sure they aren't good enough.

The next iteration of my list is going to be something like this:

11 Mountain
8 Sol Land
4 SSG
2 Chrome Mox
4 Magus
4 Moon
4 Chandra
4 Chalice
3 Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Kozilek's Return
4 Garrison
2 Jaya Ballard
3 Hangarback Walker

[NormalGuy]

I was just looking over the Ixalan cards, and noticed that Captain Lannery Storm is pretty insane mana ramp. It looks pretty easy to get to 5-7 mana on turn 2 which could open up some possibilities. What do you guys think?

[pinkfrosting]

PSA: The new walker rule is in effect on MTGO.

[bruizar]

I was just looking over the Ixalan cards, and noticed that Captain Lannery Storm is pretty insane mana ramp. It looks pretty easy to get to 5-7 mana on turn 2 which could open up some possibilities. What do you guys think?

IMO Captain Lannery Storm is great. Also, I really think it's time for Ghirapur Aether Grid in this deck with Sorcerous Spyglass around.

And yes I meant Chaos Warp lol phonetically similar to orb and I wasn't really sharp :p

Oh, and I know it's slow, but Treasure Map doesn't trigger city of traitors and gives a lot of gas. Not sure if that's needed but still interesting imo

[jandax]

IMO Captain Lannery Storm is great. Also, I really think it's time for Ghirapur Aether Grid in this deck with Sorcerous Spyglass around.

And yes I meant Chaos Warp lol phonetically similar to orb and I wasn't really sharp [emoji14]

Oh, and I know it's slow, but Treasure Map doesn't trigger city of traitors and gives a lot of gas. Not sure if that's needed but still interesting imoIf QRS is slow and therefore not a good addition shouldn't treasure cove fall under the same logic?

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[frogger42]

And yes I meant Chaos Warp lol phonetically similar to orb and I wasn't really sharp :p


Oh. That makes me a little sad, actually.

[bruizar]

Oh. That makes me a little sad, actually.

Well, the orb IS the cleanest answer...

[jandax]

Curious: has anyone done math on dmg from rabblemasters vs garrison? I do like that it has a 3 toughness, makes MD sweepers more valuable.

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[NormalGuy]

Curious: has anyone done math on dmg from rabblemasters vs garrison? I do like that it has a 3 toughness, makes MD sweepers more valuable.

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Uncontested, a rabblemaster will kill one turn faster. That's all the math I did. It's pretty rare for rabblemaster or Garrison to go completely understand though. And as you said, garrison is better with sweepers, also you can leave back tokens as blockers. You also aren't forced to attack into a batterskull or jitte which can be relevant.

Rabble: 1+6+8+10=25
Garrison: 0+4+6+8+10=28

[onemancannon]

Jeff Hoogland did amazing with Chandra Tribal featuring our very own pinkfrosting. I've been hooked on any prison variant since SDT departed.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTbURBLIUc


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blood Moon
3 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Trinisphere
11 Mountain

-------------------
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Boil
2 Null Rod
2 Volcanic Fallout

[AceOfJacks]

I absolutely HATE Bottled Cloister. It competes with the higher curve cards, it does nothing when it comes in, it can leave cards stranded in limbo if they kill it at the right time. If it's there simply for synergy with Ensnaring Bridge, I think there are better options. This build in the above post has no beaters except for 3/1's from 6 mana Chandra, which is a 1-of in the list. Additionally, you have Torch of Defiance AND Pyromaster, both of which give you "card advantage" during your turn, without turning on Ensnaring Bridge.

[pinkfrosting]

Jeff Hoogland did amazing with Chandra Tribal featuring our very own pinkfrosting. I've been hooked on any prison variant since SDT departed.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTbURBLIUc


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blood Moon
3 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Fiery Confluence
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Trinisphere
11 Mountain

-------------------
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Boil
2 Null Rod
2 Volcanic Fallout


Although the mirror is generally very unfun, I enjoyed this match. As I told Jeff in chat I didn't know the planeswalker rule kicked in early before the official release of IXL. I've since been playing a list with 3 chandra, pyromaster. Not a fan of 6 mana cards so I'm not playing flamecaller, and I like just playing more pyromasters vs cloister because it's more flexible and not an artifact.

Not in front of my PC at the moment but I'll post the list tonight. Got a 5-0 this morning with it, it's been strong. Also playing 3 sorcerous spyglass in the board and I'm going to try 4. It's been incredible at dealing with cards we traditionally struggle against, namely JTMS, EE, pernicious deed while also being flexible enough to always do something even when we're not naming a scary card.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Congrats man! I watched the link above of Hoogland 5-0ing. Got me interested in jamming some Legacy again. I'm also not sold on Cloister, but I am excited for the potential gains the deck gets with Spyglass.

[claulis]

I do like that it has a 3 toughness, makes MD sweepers more valuable.

I do too. It makes it relivant that it doesn't trade versus Snapcaster/Pyromancer/Thalia/etc. like rablemaster.

[jandax]

Then again, it could be that the days of traditional stompy are over. I've gotten this notion after playing in several tournaments over the past year or two that our creatures, vis à vis wincons, are outclassed most of the time. Winning in the red zone isnt what it was. Perhaps the debate over rabbles vs garrison vs arc slogger etc is moot. Do we need to just go oops, all Chandras and bridges and sweepers? This is a legit question

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[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
I played a small 4 rounder yesterday and went 2:2, not great but it was closer than it looks.

Round 1: UR Delver Won 2:1

Round 2: BUG Control Lost 1:2 (Totally mana screwed in G2+3 and no Moon effects at all)

Round 3: UR Delver Won 2:0

Round 4: Burn Lost 1:2

The two UR Delver MU's felt easy but burn is nearly unwinnable because they have so many stuff to play around Chalice especially in postboard games. The nonexistent clock doesnt make it better.

I got super unlucky vs BUG Control and was totally screwed in G2+3 after landing Chalice on 1+2 but with only 2 Mountain in play for the rest of the game. In G3 I had a good 1st turn with chalice but double Ancient Tomb without any red source until T8/10 or whatever sucked hard, a TNN killed me in 2 swings after he decayed my lonely Bridge.

I was not happy with 4 Great Furnace because of so many PoP im the room and I also dont like it vs Wasteland or Kollaghans Command...Will go down to 2 for the future, its enough to support 4 Quicksmith Rebel.

I will also replace 2 Hazoret with 2 Chandra Pyromaster because most of the time he cant attack because of bridge and paying 3 mana for a worse shock is not that strong I think, Chandra Pyromaster gives us more extra draws and the 1 damage ability is more relevant than one think.

4 Quicksmith Rebel were strong and I really like this guy! Totally worth it.

Nevertheless I will try out the new Chandra version without any big beaters because its quite good positioned in a value grindy meta with so many 4c CzechPile/Stoneblade/BUG/Grixis decks out there. I also really like the fact that it totally blanks the opposing removal spells and has great synergy with the 6 sweepers in the MD and around 4 in the SB.

This was my list

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Quicksmith Rebel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Hazoret the Fervent (Now 2 Chandra Pyromaster)

4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Fiery Confluence
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chrome Mox

7 Mountain (Uped to 9)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace (Now only 2)

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Kozileks Return
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Sudden Shock
2 Abrade (Now 2 Koth of the Hammer)
2 Sulfur Elemental (Now 2 Boil)
1 Trinisphere

Greetings