[Deck] Dragon Stompy [Archive] - Page 2

Tacosnape

04-21-2011, 01:01 PM

I love the old school'ness (is that a word?) of it, but is that kind of mana fixing neccesary?.

Possibly. I'm only running two. I got the idea from a brief span of running it in Goblins (The logic being that the third best turn one play behind Vial and Lackey was to ramp up for a turn two Warchief. Worked fair.) and then tried it in Affinity, and am still running a pair there. And it does more than mana fix. It actually ramps on mana light hands, and it speeds up the development of Metalcraft. It also helps you fix those City of Traitors hands that start explosive but run into problems after you have to sacrifice the City.

I struggle to defend its inclusion, because it isn't really easy to quantify in terms of explosive plays, but it does always seem to give you the right mana at the right time in the midgame to keep your assault up. Plus if you don't spend the full mana using a Grim Monolith (Which replaces Song in my Opal version), it lets you in effect reduce the cost of untapping and re-using it. It also both helps you ramp into Forgemaster and activate Forgemaster, assuming I run it.

The more I play with the card, the more I think it has a ton of potential in the upcoming artifact-based Legacy metagame.

Yuri8

04-21-2011, 01:10 PM

Would you like to share your mox opal list? Every time I try to make list with them it tend to be more like mud than dragonstompy.

TheDarkshineKnight

04-21-2011, 01:13 PM

I'd be interested to see, always.

What I'm attempting to achieve is something with the "Oops, I win" factor of Dragon Stompy, yet more in an artifact shell. I'd still be abusing the 8 Moons, of course, as it's my favorite part of the deck, but beyond that? It's somewhat of a complete overhaul. The point I keep getting stuck on is whether or not to include the Forgemaster/Greaves/Blightsteel package, try a Ravager/Slag Fiend package, or stick with the Hellbent crew.

I think running Opal would necessitate the Ravager/Slag package as that's about as explosive as you can get. Much easier to get that going first turn than getting five mana and three artifacts plus Lightning Greaves on Turn 1 or 2.

GGoober

04-21-2011, 01:51 PM

Taco, the color-fixing card you should be looking at is Mox Diamond. It involves more tweaks to the current list, but I'll share my list that was a few months old. Granted that we get the new artifact dragon and Phyrexian Metamorph, the artifact count can be increased without sacrificing firepower.

This was my list a few months back, when I was experimenting with Stompy builds moving away from the terrible Chrome Mox (the only thing this stupid card ever do is help you get hellbent or tear your hair out because you run too many artifacts).

Lands: 19 (it's land-heavy but think of Wasteland as tempo card taking a land drop)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Mountains

Accelerants: 13
4 SSG
3 Mox Opal
3 Mox Diamond (Jeweled Amulet if you prefer that, but I rather have mana ACCELERATION)
3 Grim Monolith

Creatures: 17
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Etched Champion
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine/Steel Hellkite (has to be 6cmc or less)

Others: 2
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Resistors: 10 (13 if you count Magus)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

Notes: The most important part to make Opal work (and this is from constant testing in Steel Stompy) is to have enough turn 1 2cmc plays that support a turn 2 Metalcraft. The biggest drawback to Opal for Dragonstompy is not being able to do anything on turn 1 i.e. it's a turn 2 accelerant, not a turn 1 accelerant in 90% of the situation. It is the main reason I built the list but scrapped it because Dragon Stompy fundamentally plays very different from other Stompy variants i.e. it's a throw everything out and hope your opponent does to moon approach.

Regardless, the most important thing to note that although Opal doesn't accelerate turn 1, it does fix colors and accelerate on turn 2 if you can support metalcraft by turn 2. From testings with Steel Stompy, to achieve this, you need a high 2cmc count on turn 1, that way you can easily play another artifact turn 2 and turn on Opal.

The list that I built doesn't play the Hellbent package: pit-dragon/Raiders. I opted for Golems pairing up with Wastelands. In this list, you can easily cast a turn 1 Golem (hands with SSG/Diamond + Tomb + Monolith, it's not very frequent but no other deck is capable of doing this except meandeck mud). Etched Champion is a great card on the defensive, but could go in on the offensive once you get a Jitte. If you prefer less disruption, I'll move 3spheres to the SB and play 3 Platings instead, which increases the overall kill-speed of the deck.

The list is not optimized, but has a few benefits over the traditional list:
- It keeps as explosive starts as the original list, together with Moon effects that go online turn 1.
- Not a ton of card-disadvantage: Chrome Mox is just a terrible card in Stompy (in my honest opinion, unless you're opting the hellbent route, which has its own drawbacks i.e. lose to opponents answering Chalice/Moon/3sphere and then plowing your lone threat because you've dumped your hand)
- Maintain locks better than the regular list (you have same Moons, but this time Golems pairing up with Trinsiphere + Wasteland)

Drawbacks of the list is:
- Slower killing power, but compromised with more consistent casting of creatures, and not suffering from the card-disadvantage from the hellbent approach allows you to keep the pressure up with more spells. Killing power can be increased with 3 Platings (which I recommend over 3sphere, but I know I'm in the Dstompy thread so I won't get into that :P)
- Weaker creatures, hence I opted for 2 slots of beefers: Wurmcoils/Hellkites.
- more prone to artifact hate (think SHattering spree under a moon O_O).

New Phyrexia:
This list was made before New Phyrexia was spoiled. Obviously now, the artifact approach could be more interesting with the new firebreathing dragon, and Phyrexia Metamorph (awesome card with Golems specifically)

Tacosnape

04-21-2011, 02:36 PM

The only thing I don't like about your above list, aside from Mox Diamond and 19 lands which I'll get to in a minute, is it doesn't have enough "Oops, I win" factor. There have to be creatures which can win the game on their own. There have to be the guys with the impact level of Slogger and Dragon who can just win by themselves if unanswered.

Etched Champion doesn't win games. He's defensive. He's small. He's great in Steel Stompy-ish decks. But he requires Cranial Plating be in the deck to run in Dragon Stompy. You have to either run both or neither.

Your top punch-packer is Lodestone Golem. Don't get me wrong. I -love- Lodestone Golem. He's disruptive, and he's a 4-turn clock. But he can't be t flagship guy in the deck. He's too easy to remove, block, or play around. He's a slowdown card, not a game-winning card, and on top of that he's kind of iffy with Trinisphere.

Phyrexian Revoker isn't a punch-packer either. He's an assist tool. He helps your Chalices and Moons go "Oops, I win" more efficiently.

And just two big artifact guys isn't enough to get there, I feel.

And...Mox Diamond with 19 lands? Seriously?

GGoober

04-21-2011, 02:50 PM

And just two big artifact guys isn't enough to get there, I feel.

Yupp, that was one of the main reason I kinda scrapped the list. It was just too hard to maintain high artifact count to power Opal while being able to play bigger creatures. Perhaps drop the Champions from the list and play bigger threats? (Dragons, wurmcoils)

The eventual question becomes: Is Meandeck MUD with less explosiveness and Blood Moon better than Dragonstompy or Meandeck MUD? lol

Taco, the list was brewed a long time back, was clearly suboptimal, but that was the direction I was taking before I decided to leave it aside because it wasn't fitting in. However, it's just a possibility with what artifact-versions of the deck could do. It's probably not worthwhile since you're losing a ton more gas than gaining the sustained disruption and better card advantage.

19 lands does support 3 Mox Diamond, although barely. The goal I laid out for Mox Diamond was to look at hands where you usually open with at least 3 lands (2 to make 2 land drops, 1 pitched to Diamond).

With 19 lands, the probability you draw x lands in opening hands are:
(calculations are hypogeometric distributions assuming no replacements)

7______6_______5_______4_______3_______2_______1________0______
0.01%__0.29%__2.47%__10.70%__25.41%__33.18%__22.12%__5.82%

contrast this with Steel Stompy with 23 lands
7______6_______5_______4________3________2________1_______0______
0.06%__0.97%__5.80%__17.82%___30.29%__28.56%__13.84%__2.67%

But the main model to contrast is actuall Meandeck MUD with 16 lands
7______6_______5_______4________3________2________1_______0______
0.00%__0.09%__1.07%__6.24%____19.68%___33.74%__29.24%__9.92%

As you can see, you ideally want a 3-land hand with an opening 7 (to play 2 land drops and pitch a land). 16 lands is on the low-end where you will most likely be stuck with 1-2 land hands. 19 lands you're tending more towards 2-3 land hands than 1-2 land hands. 23 lands you're tending most towards 3 land hands, followed by 2 land hands.

Regardless, it depends on how greedy the deck wants to be. I usually prefer safer 2-3 land hands for stompy decks (since 1 Wasteland on an Ancient Tomb = dead cards in your hands). 19 is about the bare minimum. 18 land is shifting hands with 1-2 lands to be as frequent as 2-3 lands. My buddy plays Meandeck MUD and he agreed to up to 18 lands, which almost barely supports Diamonds (i.e. you draw 1-2 and 2-3 land hands with same frequency with the most common land count at 2 lands drawn per opening 7). But since Meandeck MUD is a deck built purely on explosiveness, 18 lands is as best as you can afford without inconsistencies, at least probabilistically-wise.

Clark Kant

04-21-2011, 02:51 PM

ivanpei

04-21-2011, 07:33 PM

I believe priest, equipment and low drops are the way to go. Steel stompyish may be a possibility but I've also tried and scrapped it due to 1 big point. Moon turns all your Sol lands to mountains! How do you expect to cast 5-6cc spells without them? Small utility weenies, equipment, priest topped off by moltensteel is Very consistent, something dstompy has been missing.

I hate to depend on song. There have been as many games I've lost as I've won because I can't cast rpd/slogger without song. There are also many instances where I've lost because I can't reach 4-5 mana due to moon turning my sol lands to mountains.

NecroYawgmoth

04-21-2011, 09:03 PM

I also believe that the Weenie / Equipment / Dragons route is the way to go, as the other version seems to be just an hybrisized MUD.

never change a running system,or not?

oh, and I am in love with 2-off Moltensteel =D... 6 Instantkill finishers is quite good, and all other spells cost less than them? GREAT =D

Slay

04-22-2011, 12:41 AM

Is a mox even needed? Mox made sense when the deck played many 3cc and 5cc cards. It's not needed if the deck plays mostly 2cc (2 for 2/1 flyer, 3/1 first strike and 2/1 piting needle, jitte, cranial plating, chalice, ankh of mishra?) and 4cc stuff (new dragon, lodestone golem, masticore). Crystal Vein makes more sense with those cards.

Maybe playing more of these cheap artifact flying equipment carriers (1 for 1/1 flying lifelink that evades chalice at 1, 2 for 2/1 flyer, 3/1 first strike and 2/1 piting needle) and Crystal Vein makes more sense. Both Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are inherent card disadvantage. Metalworker is not).

To your fundamental question is mud with blood moon/magus better than either mud or dragon stony, I actually lean to yes!

Priest is better the more equipments the deck runs and the fewer 5cc creatures it runs. Molten Dragon is really powerful, ending games in just one attack if you have enough life, it basically as a psuedohatred built into it, along with evasion.

Priest is solid with blood moon and magus. Turn one equipment, turn two priest + moon seems solid.

The Dragon works really well with Priest. I think the right move is to cut 5cc cards and seething songs out completely and run these newer faster guys instead.

If we cut out all spells that need double red, we can do without priest and we can cut back slightly on the number of red sources we run as well. With all the strong artifacts including lodestone golem, chrome mox is losing it's luster though while opal is looking better and better. Yes this brings the deck closer to MUD, but surely, if that is the stronger approach, it's worth testing.

Yes mox is needed. The purpose of dragon stompy is to get out a turn 1 lock piece then play a beatstick afterwards. You play 16 lock pieces - 8 moons, 4 trinis, 4 chalices, of which twelve require three mana. In order to get that kind of mana out you need all the reliable sources you can get, of which jeweled amulet and mox opal are not. And mox diamond is crap because land is really fuckin important to dragon stompy. This is also why wasteland is generally not good.

While I'm ranting, does anyone else think that seething song kinda sucks? What's it ramp you to? just slogger. If youve hit three mana you should be casting bombs, not rituals. I've been playing the 2 mana song and its been just as good outside of sloggerville. Red priest is bad for the same reason song is bad, actually its worse by a lot.
-Slay

Shawon

04-22-2011, 01:33 AM

While I'm ranting, does anyone else think that seething song kinda sucks? What's it ramp you to? just slogger. If youve hit three mana you should be casting bombs, not rituals. I've been playing the 2 mana song and its been just as good outside of sloggerville. Red priest is bad for the same reason song is bad, actually its worse by a lot.
-Slay

If you're running Slogger then you have to run Seething Song because you hurt the deck's consistency to hit hellbent when you have uncastable Sloggers in your hand. Also, other rituals don't accelerate you fast enough to cast Slogger as Seething Song. I run 2 Sloggers + 2 Songs and keep them at a 1:1 ratio.

So the question you really want to ask is: is Slogger worth it? I think it is because it wins you games you should have no business of winning consistently. The equipment builds that also cut Slogger still care about your opponent's board even when you have him at lethal because you still need to get one more swing in. Having Arc-Slogger finishes the job that your attack force diligently performed until your opponent started to stabilize.

guidogulp

04-22-2011, 09:15 PM

has any of you guys ever tried playing Tangle Wire??

Seems to have some potential considering we have chalices to tap (and trinis when have less or any effect) and we are able to lock the first turns landing some threat and can therefore make a better use of those threats...

so just a thought...

Shawon

04-23-2011, 01:52 AM

Tangle Wire is simply not as good as either Chalice or Blood Moon, and you don't want to tap down ANY of your creatures or lands during any of your turns.

Jelmerz77

04-23-2011, 02:26 PM

I just won a local tournament with Dragon Stompy. (I played NecroYawgmoth's List, thanks for posting ;-) )
Played against
Round 1:
Thopter foundry (1-1-1)
Round 2:
Mono Blue Staxx (Homebrew) (2-1)
Round 3:
ANT (2-0)
Round 4:
Merfolk (2-1)
Round 5:
Thopter foundry (ID)
Round 6:
ANT (2-0)

+ Top 4
Semi's ANT (2-0)
Final Canadian Thresh (Split and played for the honor 2-0 for me)

I really liked the SOBAM and the Phyrexian Revokers. Boarded out Kargan a lot (Too mana intensive)
Jaya was MVP against Merfolk (Saved my ass game 2)

Revokers hit so much, I really love this card. :-D
Would like to see some replacement for Kargan though, he is just not good enough.

cheers.

Jelmer

mercs

04-23-2011, 02:52 PM

very nice. congrats.

NecroYawgmoth

04-23-2011, 06:26 PM

Would like to see some replacement for Kargan though, he is just not good enough.

try Shatterskull / Mountain Yeti / Jaya main [and 2 Boils in the side], or the new Moltensteel Dragon when new Phyrexia is out =D

Jelmerz77

04-23-2011, 06:51 PM

try Shatterskull / Mountain Yeti / Jaya main [and 2 Boils in the side], or the new Moltensteel Dragon when new Phyrexia is out =D

Shatterskull has the same problem as Kargan (and I think Kargan is better) Too mana intensive.
Jaya main would probably mean that I would side her out in a lot of Matchups as well. ;-)
Mountain Yeti = Old school style award but otherwise meh... ;-)

That new Moltensteel Dragon sounds promising but the possible liveloss worries me.
I sometimes find myself playing this deck as "Suicide Red" losing 8 to 10 live to Ancient Tomb.

Secretly.A.Bee

04-24-2011, 01:17 AM

so what if you lose the life. I say, and I play DS fairly often, that Moltensteel Dragon is what the deck needs. Honestly, the card is nuts. Here's what I am going to test when it comes out:

-2 Song
-1 Slogger

+3 Moltensteel

And also:

-2 Slogger
-1 Song

+3 Moltensteel

It's the best thing printed for a possible slot in ages. Seething Song becomes more relevant and it works well.

Jelmerz77

04-24-2011, 03:21 AM

Ow don't get me wrong I see its potential.
(Its big, flies and a pump ability)
And I'll probably will test it as a 2 off, in stead of Kargan.

Yuri8

04-24-2011, 06:05 AM

Has anyone thought about batterskul? Its in our five mana range. Seems pretty god for me. Unlike other equips can usefull by itself, and bad topdeck mode you can always return it back to your hand at end of turn and replay it again. Also we could include Godo, Bandit Warlord as one-of for litle combo.

Batterskull 5
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +4/+4 and has vigilance and lifelink
3: Return Batterskull to its owner's hand.
Equip 5

overseer1234

04-24-2011, 02:18 PM

I dunno if this was mentioned before but when we start playing moltensteel + phyrexian revoker it starts to become pretty low on the red count for chrome mox.... (especially if you want to play 4 equipment on top of that)

LostButSeeking

04-24-2011, 02:58 PM

Infinitium

04-24-2011, 03:05 PM

Batterskull actually looks like a decent slogger replacement. It shines in roughly the same matchups (ie against Tribal and aggressive decks), and it isn't a total loss when the opponent STP's it. The recursive ability might be largely useless but could still be golden for a deck that spends most of its time in topdeck mode without useful things to do with all its mana.

EDIT: Also, whilst Moltensteel is indeed a red card Chrome Mox specifically cannot imprint artifacts. Bummer, really.

Secretly.A.Bee

04-24-2011, 05:05 PM

EDIT: Also, whilst Moltensteel is indeed a red card Chrome Mox specifically cannot imprint artifacts. Bummer, really.

Whoops. Missed that. Good eye, Watson. I am now on board with the batterskull idea. Also, this makes Seething Song a much better topdeck since it both casts and equips Batterskull, and can toss out a Slogger/burn with Slogger, toss out a few points of damage, as well as its normal drop of tossing out disruption on turn one. I like this card quite a bit. It even gets around destroy effects if necessary for 3. It's friggin' good for the list. Face it, this card turns your little beaters into a house. a 6/6 Magus with lifelink and can still block? Awesome. Also, now I won't worry as much about how often I tap Tomb. I'm getting 4x asap. Also, as if Dragon weren't pretty much gg, Dragon + this is.

--ABC

ThoSha

04-24-2011, 08:19 PM

Batterskull just rocks with Etched Champion. Im considering them both, might be nice..

ivanpei

04-24-2011, 08:33 PM

My list a couple of pages back includes revokers, 2 moltensteel, 4 equip And I have 24 red cards that can be pitched to mox. I'm going to stick with the mox diamond rule Aka, you need at least 24 cards to pitch to mox for it to be optimal as you don't want to be forced to pitch the moon effect when what you want is To cast it. For those who are going equipment less with slogger, I think batterskull is a good fit as he is pure colourless, wrecks tribal and if killed, can pump a weenie to a pretty big size. If moltensteel does not work out in my list, I'll play a pair of batterskulls instead.

Even without songs, batterskull is good because it doesn't need double red. 2 sol lands would do the trick. Thoughts? We have precious few non red slots, so moltensteel vs batterskull, which do you like better? I'm leaning on moltensteel because it's explosive, but batterskull might be a safer choice. When you are behind, you want batterskull, when you are ahead, you want moltensteel to wrap up the game before the opponent can recover.

Traditionally I like cards that pull you back from behind. But since this is a sui type deck, maybe the rules are different.

NecroYawgmoth

04-24-2011, 10:43 PM

Batterskull? really?

That card is good, but on the other hand it is very clumsy... and I don't like cards that cost THAT much mana =( It can't even be imprinted, if we want to go the Hellbent Route...

oh, and about percentages for the Mox... Gui calculated this for me =)

Red Cards in Deck - Chance of 1 in OP7 - Chance of 2 in OP7

20 ---------- 95,?% ---------- 75%
21 ---------- 96,2% ---------- 78%
22 ---------- 96,7% ---------- 81%
23 ---------- 97,2% ---------- 83%
24 ---------- 97,8% ---------- 85,7%
25 ---------- 98,2% ---------- 87,7%
26 ---------- 98,6% ---------- 89,5%

Secretly.A.Bee

04-25-2011, 01:50 AM

Batterskull? really?

You betcha.

That card is good, but on the other hand

wtf.

it is very clumsy... and I don't like cards that cost THAT much mana =( It can't even be imprinted, if we want to go the Hellbent Route...

Slogger costs "THAT much mana." You know, the card that wins games?

The fact of the matter is it's a creature that on a sorcery-speed whim makes our good creatures awesome and our awesome creatures into life-point eating Gods. How many times have you said, "I wish my life total was lower, then I could worry about tapping my Ancient Tomb again."

Another fact is that it's a 4/4 creature on turn 2 if you get double sol lands, which happens, and generally ends up being tossed back for a new hand. Why? You generally need a red mana source; with this, thats not a big deal. Also, I don't mind swinging my pit-dragon, gaining a mega-crap ton of life, and then being able to block with it, again gaining a mega crap ton of life.

ivanpei

04-25-2011, 04:18 AM

I don't think you will be seeing a batterskull on a pit dragon gaining you a crap ton of life very often as RPD will most probably be sent farming, but it's possible. I don't like the 5cc, at 4cc it would be ideal (but that would be broken @ 4 mana). As the last card in your hand, a 4/4 vigilance lifelink is nothing to laugh at. It's like a colourless baneslayer, that doesn't fly. It will most probably be sent farming as well. But Even if it does, ANY topdeck Simian spirit guide, priest, revoker or magus of the moon becomes a huge threat. 6/6 vigilance lifelinkers win games. Just ask wurmcoil engine.

But right now it's fighting slogger and Moltensteel for slots. I still prefer moltensteel because that 1 mana difference is huge. But if tribal/midrange is the way decks are heading with less combo, Batterskull might be a better choice. BTW, batterskull 25 USD sold out on SCG? Man they have to stop printing stuff for caw blade, it's annoying. Can you imagine this with stoneforge? You ninja it into play with SFM and then bounce, repeat when the germ dies.

mercs

04-25-2011, 05:24 AM

Batterskull? really?

20 ---------- 95,?% ---------- 75%
21 ---------- 96,2% ---------- 78%
22 ---------- 96,7% ---------- 81%
23 ---------- 97,2% ---------- 83%
24 ---------- 97,8% ---------- 85,7%
25 ---------- 98,2% ---------- 87,7%
26 ---------- 98,6% ---------- 89,5%

I definitely think 20 red sources should be ok. For Fow users, their rule for blue count is >16, so we should be ok if the cut is warranted.

AmokPL

04-26-2011, 06:19 AM

Jelmerz77

04-26-2011, 06:34 AM

hmm nobody didnt even mention Volt Charge despite the fact few pages ago we have been considering Char as our removal. VC is pretty good - 3 hits creature or player lets you play that card even if you dont have any threat on the table to enter into hellbent. Also that means Sloggers and Songs may go and if you play level up dudes it might give you a surprising counter for your Lord of Shatterskull Pass especially when they dont expect that.

I don't think I will ever consider playing removal maindeck in DS. If it's not a lock piece than it has to have legs to walk and hands to hold an equipment. If the deck would need this to proper work, then I would probably play another deck. And for SB I would prefer other options, but that might be just me

NecroYawgmoth

04-26-2011, 09:54 PM

Did anyone tested/proxed/MWSed with that clumsy Batterskull what actually could be good? :laugh:

Also, I wanted to ask you how your Post-New Phyrexia decklists would look like?

My actual list looks like this:

Creatures:
4 Gathan Raiders ----> Priest of Urabrask
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Kargan Dragonlord ----> Moltensteel Dragon

Other:
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body & Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

I really feel I need something against Zoo or bigger Creatures/Aggro in my board, but I don't know what...
Maybe more Swords?

oh and btw: Taco, do you want to post your Mox Opal / Jeweled Amulet / 8 Moon / Oops I win / whatever it is - list =P ?

Tivon

04-26-2011, 10:10 PM

What is T crypt for? If its dredge you can probably cut it for x4 pyrokinesis.

Ratchet bomb is house against dredge (and pyrokinesis can come in too). We already have one of the strongest maindecks against them. I would also probably bump ratchet up to 4 and drop anarchy to 2 personally. Ratchet bomb handles most of the problematic permanents in enchantress and staxx and such for us.

NecroYawgmoth

04-26-2011, 10:17 PM

mainly against Dredge, yes... =/

I know that this MU is favored for us, and maybe it's just a Paranoia as I am a Dredge-Player myself, and I know how randomly Broken this deck can be... but maybe you are right.

I cutted Ratchet down to 3, because 4 were too many IMO, and I haven't encountered any problems with it, yet. 3/3 Anarchy / Ratchet is fine against Enchantress.

ivanpei

04-26-2011, 10:22 PM

NecroYawgmoth

04-26-2011, 10:24 PM

I'm gonna be playing that exact MD except I'll have Gathan instead of Trini (I hate Trini MD and I want to up my Red count). I generally find Zoo a good MU though. Moon/Chalice is usually GG against them. SOBM/Jittes also wreck them.

Qasali Pridemage wants to talk with you.

LostButSeeking

04-26-2011, 10:28 PM

Qasali Pridemage wants to talk with you.

This might be true . . . if Qasili Pridemage cost RR. Blood Moon is really good against a deck with >3 basics in it.

NecroYawgmoth

04-26-2011, 10:34 PM

This might be true . . . if Qasili Pridemage cost RR. Blood Moon is really good against a deck with >3 basics in it.

Of course Moon is good...

But when they win the dieroll and start with fetch on Forest it looks a lot worse... They can lead with Noble Hierarch, or just Green Sun Zenith for Qasali and stuff... If we Revoke the Hierarch then, they might be happy and play that !$=" Pridemage. Magus can be Bolted so only Moon on opening is really good. We also don't have always that 3 mana first turn. =(

Tivon

04-26-2011, 10:37 PM

I've been blown out by zoo because of quasali... so I have an abnormal fear of it - that being said, I haven't had to play it in forever and I currently don't care as much, Tyrgon predator on the other hand... that flying piece of crap cost me a top 8 last month...

I was thinking a 4/2 split purely because ratchet can help cover up the dredge matchup if you remove Tormod's crypt. Ratchet bomb and pyrokinesis are both quite good against them - though I usually board in the ratchet bombs only (I've done pyrokinesis as well, but start to feel too threat light. usually equipment goes first, and I just can't find enough room to remove other things for pyrokinesis)

If you have more enchantress and stax in your meta, than the three anarchy is understandable. I personally don't see them much.

guidogulp

04-26-2011, 10:41 PM

Just can't see how Priest of ubarask is better than Gathan's...

Btw my SB looks like this:

1 Trini
1 Ratchet (3 in MD)
1 Flametongue Kavu (3 in MD, mainly couse in my meta there are lots of merfolks/goblins)
3 Firespout
2 Blood moon (just 2 in MD)
3 Act of treason / Grab the reins / Traitorous instinct (against big creatures decks, tarmos and so)
4 Fortune Thief (for any decks that doesn't have removal such as merfolk, dark depths probably, countertop, affinity, ANT, high tide, dredge, show and tell, etc)

So, wht do u think about fortune thief ??
Also, could Act of treason or the others work in the deck??

ivanpei

04-26-2011, 11:00 PM

NecroYawgmoth

04-26-2011, 11:07 PM

Perhaps I have better draws against zoo then. If I open chalice/blood moon, that's usually very strong. Agreed opening with a magus is pretty weak, but we also have revokers to mess with Pridemage and Noble. So far I'm above 50% against zoo. SOBM and Revoker have really improved this MU.

ofc we have Revokers, but not that often we have 2 of them =(

Sword of B&M was the best thing that could happen for this deck, and I tested it only because of you [I think you told me I should test], and I will never look back to other swords, or cutting them. =)

Also: I knew your list, as you posted them a few sites ago... That list is a real Monster... I never achieved Hellbent faster with such a constance =) -> Bad thing is that I am too much in love with Trinisphere to ever cut them entirely from the main. =(

ForlornEgoist

04-26-2011, 11:57 PM

I'm curious as to how many players here are considering, like me, to just drop RPD entirely for Moltensteel. There's no denying how ubelievably amazing RPD can be with hellbent, but let's face facts that unless we have hellbent he's just a vanilla 3/3. Although our deck run Song/SSP/Mox we still run into times where the RR can be troublesome. Not only this, RPD requires a heavy investment of mana to be useful which isn't always available particularly in the early game where we're trying to establish our lock pieces. Moltensteel can be cast off 2 sol-lands which I've found to be a necessity on more than one ocassion and he retains firebreathing. Really the only loss is hellbent-Double-strike which IMO isn't all that amazing when you consider how often our deck can struggle to reach hellbent when we need it, not to mention how DS is beginning to see an increase in equipment usage.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw in my .02$.

Forlorn Egoist

ivanpei

04-27-2011, 12:12 AM

Moltensteel is really bad in multiples though, and I could see him mainly as a 2-off or in some lists, a 3 off if you need the firepower. Ancient tomb + Moltensteel can really halve your life even before your start firebreathing. The 2nd Moltensteel you cast will literally put you under 10 life, making it's firebreathing pretty crappy. My 2 cents.

Jelmerz77

04-27-2011, 05:05 AM

I agree with Ivanpei, I will test Moltensteel Dragon in the "weak spot" of the deck instead of what is now filled by 2 Kargan/2 Koth.
But I don't see them replacing RPD.

ThoSha

04-27-2011, 07:12 AM

I agree with 3 anarchy A LOT. This card just frigging owns enchantress, which used to be a bad matchup for me before.
It also owns Death & Taxes and other WW. Also had a really good matchup against Stax with it recently, but i was favored with the wolf token from SOBM anyway. I decided to cut SoFF too because there isnt enough black removal at all to really justify it.

Regarding to your new list Yawg, i have to say i really like it.
The priest replacing Gathans seems a good choice as it fixes mana issues to cast the dragon faster.
I was only playing Gathan because of dragon support, but a 5/5 first turn that eats your whole hand was just too bad.
Please let us now how this works out. I dont think you'll miss the Gathans at all, but lets see.

Any thoughts on including Batterskull + Etched Champion to this deck?
I was tinkering around with the Champion a bit and it seemed really strong with Jitte/Sword as it can block Knights all day.
But i needed to run Artefact Lands to really keep the metalcraft constant turn 2-3

ForlornEgoist

04-27-2011, 10:17 AM

@ ivanpei:

I very much doubt I'd run Moltensteel as a 4-of, however I also consider RPD to ultimately be a far harder creature to cast and support earlier in the game which is where our deck wants to play at. Of course I won't deny that sometimes our opponents can manage to stall us out, but Moltensteel is a far better card to draw into/topdeck in the beginning as he allows you to cast him and then continue to drop threats. RPD requires you make decisions such as whether to hold mana back to use his abilities or to continue to drop cards on the fields. At bare minimum to make him even useful you require at least RR on the attack to enable flying and/or RRR on the defence if you're looking to take down a 'Goyf. Considering we run 8 sol-lands and are attempting to play a threat every turn I've found I rarely have the conveinance to reserve mana to support creatures unless my gamestate is amazing or it's later in the game.

Yeah, there's no denying that when we look at the average cost for Moltensteel we're seeing 2 Tomb-pain + 4 Phyrexian-pain for a total of 6, but then we have a 4/4 flyer who requires no extra investment to be useful. Also to remember is that more and more builds are upping the equipment count so recouping lifeloss through this means isn't difficult with a static flyer (I myself am currently running 3 Jitte although I may include 1-2 SoLaS or a 1/1 of SoLaS/SoFaF).

Until the set comes out this is all pure speculation. As of right now I'm doing the playtesting method in tournaments of saying, "what would happen if this card I just drew were this card instead." *sighs* If only RPD had static double strike rather than Hellbent. =(

@ ThoSha:

The reason people who opt to run SoFaF do so is because they're looking to enable all of their creatures to handle 'Goyf/KotR/Terravore while at the same time not enabling GY-based strategies via SoBaM. The discard is irrelevant, untap is somewhat viable if you're attacking w/sword in first 5 turns, and I'm pretty sure we're not worried about the random Junk lists that sport Go for the Throat in the SB. :P

Forlorn Egoist

ThoSha

04-27-2011, 03:58 PM

I am not sure if this still fits in this thread, but here is something to think about until new phyrexia is out.
I placed Top4 at a tournament in vienna today with this ponza list, only losing to a NO/S&T deck.

6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 SSG
4 Stone Rain
2 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Seething Song
3 Arc Slogger
4 Etched Champion
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere
4 Ankh of Mishra
3 Jitte

SB:
3 Anarchy
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pyroblast/2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon

The deck just owns where the hellbent crew fails. Instead of discarding your whole hand in 1-3 turns you can keep
board advantage much safer with good creatures for the same cost with some extra tools DS lacks.
Like i said earlier, i was tinkering with etched champion, and he is really great even in non-affinity decks.
I had Metalcraft in every game assured by 4-6 Artifacts per game. He just gets the tokens for jitte like a real champ and
blocks Knight/goyf all day. Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere paired with Stone Rain screwed my opponents big time
and some could not even recover from the lock at all. Ankh of Mishra first turn was > Chalice 1 in this deck, and it did like
6 damage each game and 8-14 if the opponent fetches. This list was created due to boredom about 10 hours ago and i never thought
it would work out so well. But it did, so i share this with you guys and i hope i'll get some feedback on the list.

ForlornEgoist

04-28-2011, 01:00 AM

ThoSha

04-28-2011, 06:45 AM

I'm definitely intrigued by your take on the artifact build we've all been scratching our heads, trying to attempt. Out of curiosity, did you find 20 red cards to be a tad light for Chrome? Or were you running it purely because you didn't have the Opals (although I also suppose one could argue you'd be afraid of the "Legendary," rule which, surprisingly, nearly every affinity player seems to forget :P). Ankh of Mishra seems like such an absurd card to win with, but it does get there and is very synergetic with the deck. 3sphere/Golem/Rain means they're required to drop lands if they want to have any chance against us but Ankh punishes them for doing so, then our moon effects negate the usefulness of their land. Etched Champion seems particularly plausibe in the artifact build and tbh I hadn't quite considered him.

Out of curiosity, how big was the tournament? And what were your MU's?

Forlorn Egoist
I thought Chrome mox was the way to go, because we dont run enough lands for Mox Diamond and i really dont like Mox Opal in a deck with explosive starts and only 1/2 containing of artifacts.

The tournament was like 19 people and my matchups were as following:

1.Round Kiki Jiki/Paladin Infinite Combo
This was quite a challange since he played lotus blooms. My only advantage was to rain a color away from him which supposed to be blue or white. I couldn't win this preboard, but postboard i just Revokered Kiki Jiki, got there with damage of Ankh, Golem and anarchy won me both games for removing nasty enchantments. Boarded Champion out on this because i didnt see creatures until turn 4 against him.

2. Round Show and Tell NO
Now this was going to be hard anyway. I went for first turn Magus, resolved. He fetched on a Tundra.
He does nothing and passes. I draw and play a second magus, he goes for Plains, Stp. My turn i stonerain his plains, running into FoW. Next turn he swords my second magus. Then he goes for 2x Chill, screwing my other moon. Doesnt take him long to go for Show and Tell Progenitus.
Next game i boarded Pyroblasts and Anarchy against Show and Tell but this time he goes for manland, natural order Progenitus. Didnt find anarchy so i had no chance at all. Metamorph would improve this matchup very much.

3. Deck with Locus/Candelabra
Didnt really know what hes up to, only that he doesnt run time spiral. I go for 1st turn seething song, slogger.
He plays a locus that triggers a bit of lifegain, followed by vesuvas next time. Slogger gets there alone quite handy, followed by a golem sealing the game. Turn 2 i boarded ratchet bomb and pyroblasts. The match turned out similar, i got there with magus and golem and ratchet bombed his candelabra quite early. He hurkyls recall bounces all of my artifacts, having magus and monkey still beating him down.

4. Elves
Phew, got some headache here, but still quite winable.
I had ankh and trinisphere and champion with jitte ig game1. He was kinda screwed because of mull to 4 and i won pretty easy. Game 2 i boarded revoker and ratchet bomb to disable those nasty combat elves. He krosan grips my jitte with 4 counters(OUCH!) and gets the combo of at 1 life remaining, going into emrakul. Game3 he mulls to 6 and i keep my hand, containing a mox, ssg, stone rain, trinisphere, tomb, great furnace and etchet champion. I drop trinisphere turn 1. he goes forest. I go etchet champion while topdecking a jitte. He doesnt play a second forest. I equip jitte and beat. he goes for a second forest he just drawed. I go stonerain on his second forest. Next turn i put revoker on priest of titania and it was winmore, as trinisphere paired with stone rain already was gg.

5. So here i got a bye technically since my opponent didnt show up. So for fun we remaining dudes without opponent startet to play a 3 on 3. I was up against goblins and enchantress. Ok first turn i go with lodestone golem. Second turn i equip jitte and bash enchantress, goblin gets out a aether vial and enchantress, well, enchants a forest for 2nd mana. In my next turn i stone rain enchantress' enchanted land lol and bash him with jitte again. Goblin went for enchantress too and my next turn killed enchantress with 6 jitte counters remaining on my golem. I stonerained rishadan port from goblin and killed all his important goblins with my jitte + golem. Kinda funny winning against Enchantress and Goblins with a ponza deck, but i think its worth mentioning. :D

Octopusman

04-28-2011, 06:34 PM

ThoSha I'm really intrigued by this approach.

Thanks for posting.

I've been looking for a solid non-hellbent version for a while so I may mess around with this.
I'm like to see the full 4/4 moon effects, revoker, hmmmm... Maybe Covetous Dragon could work after all.

To be honest, I've been thinking about stone rain for a while. I never considered ankh here even though I used to play a Pirates! deck.
Time to grab Goblin Settler before their price skyrockets? ;)

Zork

04-28-2011, 06:55 PM

Interesting approach. I had tried a pseudo LD package before with Aftershock and Dwarven Blastminer, but I never had the balls to actually MD Ankh. It didn't work out, but that was before Lodestone and Etched Champion were played. I'll have to try this.

TheDarkshineKnight

04-28-2011, 07:20 PM

ivanpei

04-28-2011, 08:34 PM

ThoSha

04-28-2011, 08:49 PM

I lol-ed at the Ankh deck! But stone rain + Trini + Moons + other land screw do have their merits! I'm tingling all over to make the ultimate land screw deck! On topic though, I dislike Ankh, simply because we are not really in a hurry to hurt opponents early game. I want to be casting my screw card early. Here's a converted stompy list I plan to try:

4 Chalice
4 Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus
4 Stone Rain
4 Revoker
4 Avalanche Rider (Carries a Jitte, so what the heck?)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Jitte
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chrome
4 Tomb
4 City
10 Mountains

Let the Screw begin!

In theory your list might be better, but in reality you just want that stupid chumpblocker with jitte that just lasts forever :D The reason why many LD builds suck is because they insist on running Avalanche or goblin ruinblaster. And without ankh it just takes forever to kill someone, except your drawing luckily into multiple golems and/or jitte.

Oh and nvm on the goblin settler. He seems like an awesome addition to the deck :D this dude seems so good that it might be worth to cut the champion for him, but thats personal taste i guess.

ivanpei

04-28-2011, 11:03 PM

I like Etched Champion but if I cut anymore red cards, I'll drop below 20 red! I really like Chalice and Revoker since testing has shown them to be insane. The list you posted loses to Aether Vial, period. Chalice and Revoker give you some outs to that card. Cheers.

ForlornEgoist

04-29-2011, 01:02 AM

I don't know why, but this new take on DS makes me giddy all over. ~oo~

I'm not sure whether or not I want Etched Champion he's conveinant because he can take on any opposing creature while still punching through with Jitte/Swords to finish the game, but I am also finding that he and Revoker are trying to occupy the same spot. Revoker is amazing MD, but I may consider downgrading him to SB. LD game 1 should be a sufficient lock on the opponent then I can rely on SB games 2/3 based on the MU. Then again my meta has recently seen 2 UR Painter, 1 Cephalid Breakfast, and a Dredger so MD Revoker might be a necessity. o.O

Anyway, hopefully I can test the list next week at the local Legacy.

Forlorn Egoist

ThoSha

04-29-2011, 05:25 AM

My list contains 18 red cards for chrome mox and i was quite satisfied with it. If you cant pitch to mox then just play it without imprint or dont play it at all, period. So many decks with FoW would be bad if they kept 22+ blue cards only for force, so i dont get the difference here.

I agree with the Aether Vial problem. Of course we lose to that issue, but thats what dragon stompy does at all.
The only answer you have to vial is jitte, and postboard you can add up revokers and ratchet bombs which help a lot.
Im not fond of MD revoker. Never was, never will be. But if you know what you are doing you can switch MD/SB Champion for Revoker. In such a case you would side Champion in if you see big animals preboard like Goyf or Knight.

tesla

04-29-2011, 07:53 AM

...and what do you think about the combination of goblin settler + lodestone golem + phyrexian metamorph?

ThoSha

04-29-2011, 02:41 PM

...and what do you think about the combination of goblin settler + lodestone golem + phyrexian metamorph?

I would go for Etched Champion, Revoker OR Goblin Settler in this slot. I mean you could cut sloggers too for more land destruction, but wouldnt that suck? =/ Needs some further testings i guess, but i am going for steel stompy next week. Still interested in seeing other results with this deck.

Mr Pirakos

04-30-2011, 04:15 AM

6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 SSG
4 Stone Rain
2 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Seething Song
3 Arc Slogger
4 Etched Champion
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere
4 Ankh of Mishra
3 Jitte

SB:
3 Anarchy
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pyroblast/2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blood Moon

I like the synergy in this deck but without Chalice @ 1 aren't you susceptible to...the entire format? The original point of the deck was for the mana curve to not be affected by Trinisphere and Chalice @ 1/2. It works in a lot of ways but without a reliable LD (being that there's only a playset in the MB) is it more consistent than the Hellbent versions?

chocomicos

04-30-2011, 06:50 PM

Oh my sweet lord, it's Neo Ankh Sligh. I am in love.

I would run:

6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Seething Song
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Urabrask the Hidden
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine

I'm sorry Rakdos but haste is awesome!

Tacosnape

04-30-2011, 07:15 PM

Urabask is the blows. Seriously. There are a TON of better 5-drops that already are barely if at all making the cut. Slogger wins more games than this guy. Forgemaster in Moon Mud wins more games than this guy. Hell, Chandra Nalaar would win more games than this guy.

After a lot of testing, I feel like Dragon Stompy needs to go one way or the other. Either go Red, go Chrome Mox, go Hellbent, and stay away from artifacts that don't auto-win, or run Moon MUD with Monolith/Opal for acceleration and pretty much your only red guys are Magus, Blood Moon, and maybe Moltensteel Dragon or a couple other random goofy bits of tech.

The artifact version with 8 Moons is probably stronger in a vacuum. But with artifact hate on the rise, the edge is probably more questionable.

manugl84

04-30-2011, 08:16 PM

The artifact version with 8 Moons is probably stronger in a vacuum. But with artifact hate on the rise, the edge is probably more questionable.

Could you post a list like that?:wink:

Clark Kant

04-30-2011, 08:18 PM

The Ponza Stompy variants just seem to be oozing with potential.

Ankh of Mishra is an incredible card.

Making your opponent take five damage per fetchland is devastating, especially combined with LD.

Goblin Settler is an awesome find too. LD + equipment carrier/chump blocker in one card is a good deal even at four mana.

Shawon

04-30-2011, 08:46 PM

ForlornEgoist

05-01-2011, 01:12 AM

@ Shawon

I understand what your talking about. I've notice DS in particular to be a deck that has thousands of different tangents people want to take it. I think what people are trying to do with DS is take it in directions that aren't considered "good,' mainstream. DS at its core is a meta-dependant deck but many people, including myself, enjoy playing the deck to such an extent we want to make it viable in metas which contain decks beyond Landstill/Lands/Thresh which are essentially auto-wins. Naturally this means testing ideas which in todays metas might be somewhat uncouth. Ponza, although far less viable currently, still offers us a LD aspect that hasn't been tested thoroughly. Just because it hasn't been used successfully in Legacy up to this point (aside from Stax players using 'Geddon) doesn't mean its a junk strategy. As of right now, DS's current lists aren't posting results, so I think revisiting some old ideas is sound.

Ankh of Mishra especially could find value for us. For a 2 mana investment you slow an opponents tempo as their less willing to make their land drops; You have now turned 3 fetchlands into near-lethal damage. Combining this with 3sphere/Lodestone essentially requires them to make land drops if they want to cast anything, and Moon effects negate their ability to color fix. It's not a build I'll say will auto-win for us nor will I say the idea is completely subpar. However, I for one would like to see DS evolve beyond a deck that might show up at a tournament, luck out and get paired up against ideal MU's before crapping out to "good," decks. If a Ponza-list can get us into some higher tier results, I'm willing to test it. Although that having been said, I don't think I'm quite ready to pull my Fire Diamond's and Tectonic Break's from my box yet. :P

Speaking of Ponza, why, oh why, was I ever running 'Clasm/Fallout when Cave-In exists? XD

Forlorn Egoist

ThoSha

05-01-2011, 11:48 AM

I like the synergy in this deck but without Chalice @ 1 aren't you susceptible to...the entire format? The original point of the deck was for the mana curve to not be affected by Trinisphere and Chalice @ 1/2. It works in a lot of ways but without a reliable LD (being that there's only a playset in the MB) is it more consistent than the Hellbent versions?
The point of my ponza attempt was to make TriSphere a good card again in this kind of deck. That was only possible with Lodestone Golem+Land Destruction. So Chalice at 1 still wouldn't affect us, but i like the Ankh in this slot much better, as it puts a lot of pressure on the opponent right away. When you have a sick start, you can go for Ankh 1st turn, trinisphere 2nd turn, stone rain or lodestone golem 3rd turn which screws a LOT of people. As for consistency, i think thats one of the biggest advantages against regular DS. Lodestone Golem and Etched Champion are just way better than Gathan/RPD, because of consistency + screw effects.

TheDarkshineKnight

05-01-2011, 12:30 PM

The thing is, Trinisphere has always been a good card in this deck. The fact that people think otherwise boggles my mind.

Mr Pirakos

05-01-2011, 12:43 PM

How does the Golem stack with the Sphere?

Tacosnape

05-01-2011, 12:59 PM

The neat thing about Trinisphere is that against some decks, it just wins. Against others, it's like a 4-5 turn timewalk. And then sometimes you'd draw it on turn three and it'd just be terrible and you'd lose from having to spend your resources playing a card that wasn't helping you in order to get Hellbent and keep your tempo up. And Trinisphere is crap on the draw. Like even moreso than the rest of the deck, which says a lot.

And FWIW, Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem don't stack up at all. Trinisphere's always last. Meaning there's no way to get them to pay 4 for a 2CMC or less spell out of the deal.

guidogulp

05-01-2011, 02:04 PM

Actually if you have a 2cmc you'll just pay 3, as golem increases the cmc and then the trini effect applies...

Koby

05-01-2011, 02:51 PM

Actually if you have a 2cmc you'll just pay 3, as golem increases the cmc and then the trini effect applies...

Trinisphere checks to see if you've paid at least 3. Golem increases it by 1. So a 2 cmc spells gets 1 added from Lodestone, then Trinisphere checks (and does nothing).

Trinisphere + Lodestone Golem for spells that cost:
1) 1 cmc raises it by 2 (Golem does nothing)
2) 2 cmc raises it by 1 (Golem does nothing)
3) 3 cmc raises it by 1 (Trinisphere does nothing)

The two cards have poor synergy.

ThoSha

05-01-2011, 04:03 PM

What you guys somehow not get is that an early Trinisphere delays their hierarch, and lodestone golem fucks up their natural order. Against any other deck, we win anyway :P (except merfolk ofc)

NecroYawgmoth

05-01-2011, 05:30 PM

After a lot of testing, I feel like Dragon Stompy needs to go one way or the other. Either go Red, go Chrome Mox, go Hellbent, and stay away from artifacts that don't auto-win...

The question for me in this case is: "Is Trinisphere a card to stay away from in this approach, or is it an auto-win card?"

Shawon

05-01-2011, 08:37 PM

Here's what I think about Trinisphere vs. Lodestone Golem:

Against Blue, Trinisphere makes Force of Will cost three mana. Lodestone Golem makes Force of Will cost one mana.

Which would you rather have against Blue?

NecroYawgmoth

05-01-2011, 08:47 PM

Shawon

05-01-2011, 08:58 PM

Well, against Merfolk, they still run Force of Will and Daze so Trinisphere still does some good here game 1 at least. Game 2/3 on the draw I would never keep 3Ball.

Against Zoo, if you can drop a turn 1 3Ball, you have a pretty strong advantage as they have to wait until turn 3 to cast a 1-drop, or a burn spell. Plus, if you run equipment, you reduce the possibility of Zoo burning or exiling your creature in response to equipping.

I didn't think it was that bad an argument :/

NecroYawgmoth

05-01-2011, 09:05 PM

Well, I don't wanted to sound harsh or stuff, so sry about that =/...

I just don't think that FoW is the card which is saying: "play Trini because of me"

But every 3rd person here is asking for Lodestone... I mean... I really <3 Lodestone, but at 4 Mana he seems so wrong in DS.

He is totally OK in Moon-Mud, but not in DS... I also don't know if I'd fit Trini in the main or in the side as it is an lovehated card =P

ThoSha

05-01-2011, 09:08 PM

...

Against Zoo, Trinisphere makes Knight cost 3 and Lodsestone makes Knight cost 4. Also Golem can attack.
Against Folk, Trinisphere makes Reejerey cost 3 and Lodestone makes Reejerey cost 4. AND Golem can attack here also!!!!

Which would you rather have against Zoo / Folk?

-_- what an argument...

come on... We all know that Trini is the better card for DS, but Trini is that card what leads to the most constance-problems besides Slogger...

See Necro.. thats exactly what i ment before i got flamed from all sides for trading Lodestone Golem for Sphere :D

Nevertheless, i think DS as it once was played is somewhat outdated.. Lets see how the new lists with Priest/Moltensteel/Metamorph work out and if we still need something like Trinisphere or Lodestone at all.

Shawon

05-01-2011, 11:27 PM

I think what could be a helpful exercise in determining what direction to go in is answering this question:

What decks does Dragon Stompy NEED to beat?

By knowing what matchups DS needs to address, we can move forward to creating a build that is optimal for the metagame it is targeting.

NecroYawgmoth

05-02-2011, 12:34 AM

Well... The high-tier meta...

AdN-Combo / Dredge / Merfolk / Zoo / Team Amercia Thresh and Countertop variants...

Or what do you think?

guidogulp

05-02-2011, 12:58 AM

For me, DS should be modeled according to your meta... But in any case we'll almost always see a Dark Horizon / The Rock, Folk, Goblin, Countertop variants (correct me if I'm wrong, but those decks are always getting tops)

But, as I see it, we should get to a DS version that is, in the overall, good in any meta... For me the thing is to reach a good version and then model it to your specific meta

So... should we go equipments or bomby creatures? (I don't see any other viable option) As for the equipment version, the pitfall in it is playing little creatures that can't stand the fight without equipments, so I'm going bomby right now

Clark Kant

05-02-2011, 01:59 AM

Without trying to flame here, but what does the LD direction actually do for the deck that the traditional Dragon Stompy (or Equip-based) can't do? So far all I see are people running decks with bad cards as an effort to make them "appear good."

Everyone's trying to push Dragon Stompy in many different directions that it's hard for me to keep track or interest on what direction is worth considering. People want Ponza, people want Equipment, people want Metalcraft. I'm not opposed to change in this thread, but can we have a sensible, if not feasible, reason to push the deck in a different direction? I can understand people wanting to add more Equipment to the deck. That's not even really a push, technically, but it is and it's understandable because the deck wants to win against tribal and other creature wars. But Ponza??? Forget Dragon Stompy, when has that strategy EVER been a successful strategy in Legacy?

There's a ton of synergy with the decks current strategy and Ponza.

Dragon Stompy's mana disruption fails when the opponent manages to fetch up a basic land before you're able to get out a Moon effect. Cards like Stone Rain and Goblin Settler take out that basic land and screw your opponent.

Lodestone Golem is already a solid card in Dragon Stompy, but it's made even more powerful by LD.

Trinisphere (I only play 3 copies), is hindered once the opponent manages to play a third land, but again, this is diminished by LD.

Ankh of Mishra forces your opponent to take 5 damage everytime they play a fetchland. That effect is greatly amplified by LD.

Moltensteel Dragon and Covetous Dragon are both very powerful cards that supplement the high artifact count.

And by playing so many artifacts, the deck can get away with playing Mox Opal in place of Chrome Mox, greatly diminishing the card disadvantage the deck suffers from.

As a long time Pox player, I understand just how devastatingly powerful a strategy land destruction is. Unfortunately, Pox never had a great clock to captialize on the LD. And it never had cards like Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem to supplement the LD. Dragon Stompy has both.

guidogulp

05-02-2011, 07:24 AM

By playing stone rain or that other creature you just continue adding cards that suck being topdecked (which is why trini is somewhat a lovehated card)

You should have some balance between messing with your opponent's strategy and having one of your own that can actually win easily, by making DS into ponza you just break that balance... but it's just me guessing

ThoSha

05-02-2011, 07:52 AM

The point why Trinisphere can be a bad card is that it does nothing on its own except buying you some time on the 1st or 2nd turn. As soon as your opponent hits his 3rd land you can say goodbye to trinispheres usefulness, as playing only one permanent per turn in a format full of Knights, Goyfs, Natural Order and Show an Tell isn't quite a burden.
There were times when i beat TES with Turn 1 Trinisphere and there were times when 3ball just lost me a game because it wasn't a beater and i was just not drawing into others except my first 2 who got handled. Lodestone Golem is just the better card for regular Dragon Stompy atm, and i only returned Trinisphere because it had good synergy with landdestruction. But whatever, i dont think we're gonna see lots of combo in the upcoming meta, so its usefulness stays in boarders.

TheDarkshineKnight

05-02-2011, 12:21 PM

The question for me in this case is: "Is Trinisphere a card to stay away from in this approach, or is it an auto-win card?"

Trinisphere is THE auto-win card.

ThoSha

05-02-2011, 12:49 PM

Nvm for posting reasons why its not..

But hey.. in some metas R/G SLIVERS IS TEH AUTOWIN!!!!11 ^^

Octopusman

05-02-2011, 03:07 PM

Glad to see that some people are interested in my Goblin Settler suggestion. However, a moderate amount of time searching online yielded zero copies to be had. I saw 4 available at $10 a piece and I didn't pick them up then. I'm afraid of how difficult it's going to be to acquire them, now.

*grumble*

Regardless, I do agree that Dragon Stompy has a bunch of different strategies and it is difficult managing them all in the same thread. I think that it's a decent time for this archetype and it appears that there will be a lot of testing going on. I'm very eager to see what people come up with.

Myself? I'm still running an equipmentless hellbent list with song, slogger, red akroma and taurean mauler with 4 trisphere in the board.
I'm looking forward to updating my list so keep on posting!

I find that if someone gets a swords on my big threat (if I can't shut it off with chalice) that it can be a struggle. Are we really better off with other equipment besides the new sword? I think that the abilities are decent since we are usually trying to prevent our opponent from playing and we could use the life if we go crazy on an Ancient Tomb. It's hard to compete with Jitte, of course.

Best wishes,

Koby

05-02-2011, 04:15 PM

Octopusman

05-02-2011, 04:30 PM

I'm sure that Koth was mentioned before as another threat. Does anyone know which post#s the discussion took place? When I was testing him, I found him to be both aggressive and more useful than Seething Song.

Also, for 4R we can play with Ogre Arsonist as an LD slot. It's more expensive than Settlers, but on a larger body.

I think that Koth was mainly discussed in the old thread.
You can browse around here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7622-%5BDeck%5D-Dragon-Stompy/page134

I usually do a "find" in my web browser and go from page to page seeing if the find will detect any mention of a card on the page. Although, the old thread is quite long.

I'm not sure the stone rain on a body is good in the 5cmc slot. Let me know how it goes in testing!

Dragon Stompy is constantly walking that fine line of disrupting the opponent a killing them. It has also traditionally focused more on dropping a bomby lock piece and then just winning with a threat while not caring too much about what manages to get resolved. I think that not being able to deal with things that are resolved and trying to put them on a clock with settlers and arsonists might be a stretch.

Koby

05-02-2011, 04:39 PM

Winning the game has always been Ponza's weakness. It's able to disrupt to no end, but landing the killing blow is tough. I was also utilizing Genju of the Spires in conjunction with Koth and Moons (pretty much TMWA style), but there was absolutely no synergy between Chalice and Genju. I do really like the idea of attacking turn 2 with a 6/1 Mountain; however I doubt it's viable outside a few key matchups (like CBtops).

Revoker, RPD, and Gathan Raiders seem like the best aggro approach. Koth maybe good here too, in limited amount.

Masamune

05-03-2011, 11:24 AM

Hey everyone!
Last Sunday I just went to the Regional Legacy Championship and I take 3rd when I was preparing to play in the last round.
I could post my list if anyone wants to see.
Masamune's Dragon Stompy defeated Goblin, Bant, The Gate, Spiral Tide and Merfolks!!!
The last one I made the biggest bullshit of my life. I didn't know if I peek my top cards while saying mulligan that's a perfect bad behavior...
I was desqualified... ;(
104 people playing and my National vacancy was very close to me.
(Sigh)
Happy for gone so far.
I can report my trajectory until that unpleasant come.
Dragon Stompy was a bomb :wink:

NecroYawgmoth

05-03-2011, 12:02 PM

Mind to post core-game situations and list? ;)

Masamune

05-03-2011, 12:32 PM

Mind to post core-game situations and list? ;)

My list:

10x Mountains
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

4x Chrome Mox
4x SSG
4x Seething Song
4x Magus of The Moon
4x Blood
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of The Void
4x Rakdos Pit Dragon
4x Gathan Riders
2x Arc-Slogger
2x Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2x Jitte

SB:
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Ratched Bomb
4x Pyrokinesis
2x Anarchy
1x Arc-Slogger

I'll report here soon, I'm working riht now ^^

Arsenal

05-03-2011, 12:42 PM

The last one I made the biggest bullshit of my life. I didn't know if I peek my top cards while saying mulligan that's a perfect bad behavior...

If you declare that you're going to mulligan, you get DQed for starting to look at your deck? I didn't know this. I know that you get in trouble for looking at extra cards, but if you declare that you're taking a mulligan, why would they DQ you?

tesla

05-03-2011, 12:45 PM

Just as I expected. The good´ol list is still the best!
Only one question: Why don´t you play 4 sloggers instead of shatterskull if you play songs?

ThoSha

05-03-2011, 01:11 PM

First of all, congrats on doing well with a classic list with slight changes,
but how can you possibly win against Merfolk or The Gate with this list?
I basically won 1 out of 10 games preboard against them without SoBM and Lodestone Golem, even with Trinisphere online.

Koby

05-03-2011, 01:15 PM

If you declare that you're going to mulligan, you get DQed for starting to look at your deck? I didn't know this. I know that you get in trouble for looking at extra cards, but if you declare that you're taking a mulligan, why would they DQ you?

Sounds like a bit of miscommunication. Reaching for your deck as you say Mulligan is fine, but if you peak first then say Mulligan; that's considered cheating. The way it Masamune worded it sounds like he looked first, then said mulligan.

Masamune

05-03-2011, 01:23 PM

@Arsenal
I peek saying mulligan, but my opp said to judge: I'm sure! I see him taking all of then before...
Whereaver... I didn't expected this live and learn...

@Tesla
I'd rather my Shatterskulls because 2x 3RR creatures and 2x 3R creatures is slight better for me, even playing with songs. By the way Shatterskull Pass is better against Goyfs and Reliquarys IMO.

ThoSha
Try take out all of the moon effects adding instead 4x Ratched Bomb, 4x Kinesis and 1 Slogger. Works with me. :laugh:

Masamune

05-03-2011, 01:44 PM

Sounds like a bit of miscommunication. Reaching for your deck as you say Mulligan is fine, but if you peak first then say Mulligan; that's considered cheating. The way it Masamune worded it sounds like he looked first, then said mulligan.

I didn't know that I swear...
I was upset but happy in the same time because I considered myself victorious though.

Yuri8

05-03-2011, 02:18 PM

Masamune

05-03-2011, 03:17 PM

Whats your opinuon on slogger? Did you find him usefull during tournament?Did you ever wanted moltensteel instead of slogger? Right now Im playing almost same decklist like you (-1 trinisphere -1 blood moon +2 lord of shatterskull pass) but Im considering change for moltens (-1 lord -2 slogger +3 molten).

I don't know if this new Dragon is so good. Should be test first, but considering all point lifes we have isn't a good way run much more permanents that can kill myself...
1)IMO many people forget what is the reason to play with this deck. Yes, I run all playset of all disrupt/ delay/ screw stuffs. I prefer beat easily all combo/ non-basics deck matches rather than aggro decks. I hate put some cards togheter to improve Mu's like Slogger + Bombs or anything like that. I don't change my mind and I woun't run less than eight moon effects and trinispheres.
2) Molten must to be tested. Being an artifact itself and pay more lifes to play it faster makes me grizzle hehe
3) 2x Sloggers and 2x LoSPs is a good choice IMO. I said before: Draw 1x Slogger and 1x LoSP is very very nice. Unlike 2x Sloggers or 2x LoSPs in a row in turn 5 or 6 for instance.

Everyone catch that I guess :cool:

ThoSha

05-03-2011, 07:33 PM

Koby

05-03-2011, 08:14 PM

Any thoughts on this list?

20 red cards to imprint for Chrome Mox is a little suspect, and the Priest doesn't look like it does anything. Fixing colorless -> red for a one shot isn't all that impressive.

ThoSha

05-03-2011, 08:29 PM

that says nothing. 20 red cards is far enough to be played and we play the priest as a free weenie into another lockpiece or threat, which just rocks. I'd rather get some constructive comments on how this list would do in the upcoming metashift, but I guess it just needs testing, as ever..

mercs

05-03-2011, 08:55 PM

NecroYawgmoth

05-03-2011, 10:58 PM

...so how would the other way of DS the "Moon-MUD" look like?

If i should come up with a list, it would look like this:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Blood Moon

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
1 Snow-Covered Mountain

but that doesn't look good IMO...

...as for the straight Hellbent-lists, I think Ivanpeis is the best there...

Oh, and sry that I forgot to say it before, GZ to the great playings Masamune, too bad that you got DQed because of that mulligan-stuff >.<

ForlornEgoist

05-04-2011, 12:06 AM

What decks do we actually SB Ratchet Bomb in for? O.o

I've been play DS a lot at tourneys lately because I've become bored with Rock and Enchantress, and for the life of me I have not found a particular MU where I found myself wishing I had a Ratchet. Against Enchantress, yeah, there could be some justification but Anarchy solves this MU quite nicely, and saves us 3 turns of waiting/avoids getting O-Ring. In theory it could work against Merfolk but I rarely see myself being permitted 3+ turns to rack up counters. I think I may replace the Bomb's with Shattering Spree. Since SFM package has become so popular I'm finding myself getting owned quite frequently by equipment, so having an out to that might be conveinant.

My current SB is:

3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyrokinesis

I'm starting to wish more and more for MD removal and less lock pieces so I'm contemplating losing some moon effects, possibly a Slogger, and the 4th 3sphere I put in/out every week in exchange for perhaps MD Pyrokinesis. It's just rather annoying when I get swarmed early-game with no way to deal with it, or when I see them drop a Bob and rack up huge card advantage.

Lately I'm finding myself returning to Sloggers... again. For the longest time I got the worst draws with them but tonight they really proved to be the MVP at a tournament. Albeit the results were a mere 2-2 (with one loss being because I wasn't paying attention to triggers when I attacked with a Level 6 Lord and my opponent Vialed in that Knight Lord that gives indestructible to Knights; he should have lost the Knight Lord but I wasn't paying attention and let him keep it. Then on his turn he vials in a 2nd then I lost... yeah, my bad --'). I also tested out -4 RPD +3 Lord of S/P +1 RAkroma. I actually found myself quite pleased with the replacement. While I've always loved RPD I found the 2RR to be just too annoying to cast when I'm stuck on 2 Sol lands, and the fact that he's so damned mana hungry made Lord an ample replacement.

@ ThoSha

So far your list is looking similar to what I had in mind. The 2 MD Metamorph seems to be sufficient for what we need it to do while not being a dead card. I'm not sure how I feel about the Priests. I'm not denying that they essentially become a free weenie enabling us to still drop a lock piece, on the other hand I'm already loathe to topdeck SSG/Mox/Seething late game not to mention a 4th mana source. ^^' I personally may opt to keep Revoker in the SB (Yes, I know how amazing it is MD but against certain decks it just isn't the all-amazing MVP we need). I feel like the needs a 3rd beater. Possibly Etched Champion? I'm starting to love the "pro-all," ability althought that would make Mox less amazing.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble so I'll just leave my post at this.

ForlornEgoist

Shawon

05-04-2011, 01:14 AM

Octopusman

05-04-2011, 02:36 AM

Any thoughts on this list?

6 mountain
4 Great Furnace
8 sol lands

4 ssg
4 priest of urabrask
2 phyrexian metamorph
4 chrome mox
2 SOBM
2 Jitte
2 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Covetous Dragon
3 Trinisphere
4 Magus
4 Moon
3 Revoker
4 Chalice

SB:
2 metamorph
3 anarchy
1 revoker
3 rachet bomb
4 shattering spree
2 boil/crypt/pyroblast flex slot

I really like this list a lot. I like the inclusion of the priest because, as you said, it's a threat that not only fixes mana, but you can then drop a lock piece.
Your list doesn't look like it needs manafixing though. Being able to dump a card plays nicely with Hellbent.
Not to steal your thunder but I might test something like the following (inspired by the inclusion of priest).

10 mountain
8 sol lands

4 ssg
4 priest of urabrask
4 Gathan Raiders
4 chrome mox
4 Seething Song
4 Rakdos Pit-Dragon
2 Trinisphere
4 Magus
4 Moon
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Revoker
4 Chalice

SB:
2 metamorph
3 anarchy
1 revoker
3 rachet bomb
3 pyrokinesis
3 crypt

This forgoes the metamorphs in the main. The priest fixes mana here by allowing the deck to have 8 ways to get RR from 2R. This allows Arc-Slogger, which is typically the card that Dragon Stompy players hate not being able to cast and annoying without song, to be more reliably cast. IMO, Slogger is the card that people waver on so much because of issues with casting it, especially in the Hellbent list.

Even Pit-Dragon can be difficult to cast on occasion. Priest gives RR for this as well, obviously. With no moon out, it can pump the dragon/give evasion. I think it speeds up the deck quite a bit and allows us to make better use of the early game where we're pretty much just sitting there dropping a lock piece that may or may not stick around.

The priest helps get a threat out, drop a lockpiece, and assists Hellbent here. I cut the equipment because dropping more threats is important in my opinion. This is why we drop to 2 3sphere for two revoker. We get an extra threat that doubles as a lockpiece, is easier on the mana, and lessens games where multiple 3spheres are frustrating.

I think the other threats are superior than running equipment. I'm sure that this is something that is personal preference. However, if you're like me, you have a hard time recovering if too many threats are removed. I think priest and revoker both advance this list's gameplan by both being a threat and either disrupting or accelerating.

The real question is, and what testing will reveal, is it better to go for a turn 1 priest of of a spirit guide with only a double land as your only land or to just cast the 3sphere/moon effect(?)?
If the opponent counters the priest and you don't topdeck a mana source, there's no chance you'll be casting the 3sphere/moon effect or a morph/seething song any time soon.

The question the opponent has to ask is, "should I save my counter for what he's casting afterwards? What if he has another mana source? Is my next play something that is going to benefit me greatly before he untaps and tries to play it next turn?". I think permission decks are going to want to mana screw you. If they can get a waste on the City/Tomb afterwards that is going to hurt.

So, is the priest the must counter? Or does the opponent let him resolve, counter your magus and swords the priest (if they even feel like it)? I think a 10 turn clock makes that a pretty easy decision but maybe I'm wrong.

Sorry for playing both sides, but it has to be done when justifying a card's inclusion.

All in all, I think this deck has some of ThoSha's spirit. However, I prefer Hellbent over the non-hellbent, possibly more consistent, artifact version. I think Metamorph is good in the board because I don't see room for it at this time. I think it could replace Revoker by being 3CMC, more moon redundancy with magus, and potentially great with Gathan Raiders, Slogger, and RPD. Testing will reveal this.
The threats just seem better, but this version lacks the ability to drop a 2nd land and drop jitte, equip on the priest, and swing. However, I think it's real value lies in getting an extra threat on the board (equipped or not) and slipped into play under our first lockpiece and then dropping better threats like RPD, Gathan Raiders in future turns. I think the priest won't be too terribly disappointing later because as I said, it can be used to pump RPD or more reliably cast Slogger. I think it adds the extra acceleration and consistency Hellbent Dragon Stompy needed. I am not saying it cures it's inconsistency, but it helps.

Sideboard:
imo I go with crypt. Kinesis and bombs great for swarms/tribal (maindeck sloggers help too). Didn't mess with much else since we have white covered, an extra revoker for you name it, and crypt for graveyards.

I really like what you guys have been coming up with recently. However, I'm not convinced that the artifact route is the way to go. I just personally feel that it is more fragile (ironic coming from a Hellbent version pilot but that's what I feel).

Keep up the good work!

ForlornEgoist

05-04-2011, 01:38 PM

I've been pretty adament about keeping Pyrokinesis up to this point, but I may consider replacing it with some type of board sweep either with Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm or possibly Cave-In. I've liked Pyro because it enables Hellbent and is free but my current list runs only Gathan for Hellbent so it's far less relevant. I also experienced yesterday one of those moments where I had a 3sphere on the field and Pyro in hand and thought to myself, "Oh, yeah.... thats why 3sphere is good against counter decks." :P I think I'll keep the Kavu in the SB as he deals the same damage, plays around 3sphere and gives me a 4/2 body to use. The 1RR on Fallout is annoying but the instant speed is rather nice (my meta has all of 1 CounterTop deck and 1-2 Bants so I'm less worried about counters).

@ Octopusman

Equipment, in particular Jitte, acts as a threat. The average decklist runs anywhere from 18-23 threats which is more than enough to support equipment. An active Jitte as I'm sure every player knows is one of the most annoying things to play against. Suddenly you can kill off any weenies, recoup life lost, or compete in some cases with even 'Goyf and KotR. I run 3 MD Jitte if nothing else because it can help shore up what I think is the decks main weakness: lack of creature removal.

As for your argument about mind games in regards to an opponent questioning whether or not to counter an acceleration spell like Song, I think an opponent will typically let it resolve.The primary MU where it's relevant whether or not to counter acceleration is Belcher which is already a good MU for them. Countering acceleration doesn't negate threats it just delays them. Most players will let you resolve acceleration and just counter the card they view as a threat.

ForlornEgoist

Zupponn

05-08-2011, 04:40 PM

What about Goblin Flotilla? Does it have a place in sideboards with all the equipment being used now?

Koby

05-08-2011, 08:30 PM

Tauren Mauler is pretty much better against Merfolk, seeing as Lord of Atlantis pumps him and gives him Islandwalk too.

0dysseus

05-08-2011, 09:07 PM

Greetings! First of all, my thanks to NecroYawgmoth for creating a new and really interesting thread, and to Tacosnape for providing his invaluable advice and ideas. You guys rock!!
Only one question: are we 100% sure that if a Magus is cast before a Humility it acts as a 1/1 Blood Moon?

I've been absent for a while and will be for the next 2 months but it is said that the criminal always returns to the crime scene:D
So...I haven't played a lot lately. But here's one crude idea, that I PMd to NecroYawg. DS's plan is to screw multicolor mana and cheap spells in the first place right? Where does this masterplan leak?

Mono-color (basics) that also half-evade chalice, alternative mana-producers (moxes, hierarchs, etc..), Dredge-like play style via graveyard, Vial, and maybe some artifact decks. Also decks -like the aggro-loam deck- that use the red mana transmuted by Moons. The printing of Revoker partially solved this. But we still can't manage all monocolored decks that well. When I say monocolored I mean decks like Goblin or Merfolk -and I'm very curious about the Gate playing Obliterators on top of its other black tricks.

I'm just wondering what would happen if we played 3 Trinis, maybe 3 Lodestone Golems (I've been an advocate against it in the past:)), AND 3 Aftershocks. Along with 20 creatures, 4 Chalices, 3 Moons, 4 Moxes and 18 lands. And we even have 3 free slots (could be equipments), along with 23 creatures, AND more lockpieces.

Firstly I thought that in a deck that doesn't search cards, we should follow the Moons' example: 6-8 pieces. We can't be based on any Land destruction +Trini combo.. Trinisphere is only 3-4 times in the deck. However we could be based on a wider Trini-Lodestone-Aftershock-Revoker "combo". Revoker-Aftershock are alike in destroying alternative mana producers. So 3+4=7 of them. Trini and Lode increase cost...a pretty good way to slow down monocolored decks with cc 1-4. 3 Trinis+ 3 Golems = 6 again. Golem and Revoker have feet..that means at least 24 threats, more locks, and a little LD for the basics or creature-arty removal.
After that, something like 2 Boil, 2 Anarchy, 3 S.Spree, 3 Kinesis/Bomb, 3 Tombs/Faeries and 2 Arenas/Metamorphs could do it.

This is just an idea, possibly a bad one. I don't test much right now, I'm just full of theory. But I really think we should focus on Dragon Stompy masterplan's leaking point. Hell, if we can't play an RPD with Golem down, let's leave the Golem alone do some beating, or sacrifice it worthily. If we cannot achieve Hellbent that way, let us play 3 Raiders, 3 Dragons, 2 Lords and 2 Sloggers for example. The problem is not how to achieve hellbent in this deck as many of you people realise. The problem is how to win more efficiently, using a simple strength/weakness analysis. (And have fun before that;)

I played Golem's lawyer as well as I could:) Do not see the Golem addition as the "perfect" idea...Just check out the idea behind the Golem. For instance, if this does not work well, 4 R.Bombs maindecked with 3 Aftershocks could be brutally good. Another multipurpose 7-pack -for a deck that does not search- that also patches up the main plan's fault. I have to mention here that both Fransesco Dalla Via and James Mink played Kegs AND Pyrokinesis/clasms (in their sideboard) and you all know how well they did. That's lots of removal on top of lock pieces guys. You want creature removal? Bombs +Aftershocks (+2 Sloggers +Jitte). Artifact?(Vial, Mox, etc.) You have Bombs +Aftershocks +Revoker. Against monocolored stuff you have 3 A-shocks plus Bombs to kill half their chalice-evasive-yet-cheap-to-cast army.

@ Zupponn: wouldn't you prefer Colos Yearling to this Goblin Flotilla?

@ mercs: Could you tell us in which match-ups have your metamorphs been useful? In Sneak and Tell & Reanimator for sure I guess..

NecroYawgmoth

05-08-2011, 09:50 PM

I have a bad feeling about Dragon Stompy at the moment... maybe New Phyrexia and the print of MM will change this, but we will see...

I think we need some kind of mass removal in our board because any swarmaggro is a huge problem. Slogger solves this problem, but not much... Slogger resolves 1 out of 100 against Folk, and it gets easily Dazed or hardcountered anyway.

@Odysseus: 3 Trini & 3 Golem & 3 Equipments & 4 Chalice & 4 Revoker & 4 Mox = 21 -> + 18 Lands = 39 -> this leaves 21 cards, this 21 cards need ALL to be red, for imprinting in Chrome Mox. 21 cards could be a little bit too few. [also note that I only calculated 3 Trinis, 3 Golems, 3 Equipments [I think that 4 EQs is optimal], and all of this cards could be played as a 4 off also. New stuff like Moltensteel Dragon or Phyrexian Metamorph aren't even included in this calculations. If we get more artifact orientated we end up playing Steel Stompy, or playing a 16-18 red cards deck, which would mean, we must exchange Chrome with Diamond then [playing like 3-4 more lands]. Opal is no solution, because DS absolutely NEEDS the 1st turn mana acceleration.

@ Zupponn Oo, what kind of card is that? If you want unblockability Mountain Yeti and Colos Yearling are both better and still not good =(, if you want a decent First Striker play Porcelain Legionaire... which leads me to the next point:

Ivanpei has said this in an other thread, and this a big part of the reaon why I have a bad feeling of DS. and Ivanpei is right in many ways with it IMO.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20696-Hatebear-Stompy-Brainstorming
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20698-Will-Stompy-Ever-Get-There

The ONLY strength Dragon Stompy has is Blood Moons and COTV [and to a certain point Trinisphere], if this cards got handled, we are playing with a bad cards.deck.:eek: You can try to argue against it as much as you want, but Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit Dragon are my NO MEANS good creatures. They are desperate options because we have no better creatures available. I think that the approach of the W-Hatebear-Chalice-Aggro will outclass DS as it has much more flexibility and constance than DS has...

Zupponn

05-08-2011, 09:53 PM

Okay, maybe not the Flotilla, but how about Omen of Fire? Is it better than running both Boil and Anarchy in the sideboard?

ForlornEgoist

05-09-2011, 12:35 AM

@ Gathan/RPD:

I agree, neither is incredibly ideal anymore. Currently I have substituted RPD for Lord of S/P and my 3rd Slogger. As such I've been performing rather well thus far with the substitution. I consider Lord to be essentially the red version of 'Goyf in that for a reasonable investment (by the standards of a deck with 8 sol lands and 12 mana accelerants) he is a cheap investment that can handle any creature with exception to KotR and other such creatures. 'Goyf at best against us is a 5/6 with exception to the rare instance we nix a Planeswalker to the 'yard. Not to mention his ultimate is quite a nice board clear later in the game.

As for Gathan while he stills see some play by me as of right now I'm finding less and less use in him. Right now the biggest value I've been finding him to have is to hide the singleton RAkroma in my build. I may look at doing a 2/2 split of Lodestone/Moltensteel, perhaps dropping my 3rd slogger to up the Lodestone count to 3.

@ Omen of Fire:

Its not a horrible card by any means and it can answer multiple decks saving SB space for decks that have a tighter SB than someone like me, but its flaws are distinguishable. Firstly, with Boil you force them to shuffle/Top/Cantrip into lands if they want to retain ability to answer our threats. You nix any island including the basics they tutored to undermine our Moon effects. With Omen albeit you screw them just the same but you permit them to keep lands essentially providing them with the ability to come back. A resolved Boil depending on the game state and deck can sometimes mean gg whereas a resolved Omen doesn't necessarily gurantee the same thing.

In regards to the second aspect of hitting white permanants the primary MU Anarchy is used in from what I can tell is Enchantress, White Stax (to hit Angels/Moat), and as I've done sometimes against decks like Rock to deal with KotR. Albeit with Anarchy we run the risk of running into a Karmic Justice but it also gives us the ability to remove Solitary Confinement and Moat which could be keeping them alive. With Omen they can opt to sac plains to retain either cards. Albeit denying them white can be relevant, but they also have Utopia Sprawl and Serra's Sanctum to fall back on, not to mention they realistically only need 1 plains period. With their massive CA they'll have no difficulty finding it.

Omen isn't necessarily a bad card and I like its duality and the ability to save SB slots, but I really think its a card you want to use carefully. Both Boil and Anarchy provide solid game-winning effects upon resolution most of the time whereas Omen isn't quite so assured.

ForlornEgoist

Clark Kant

05-09-2011, 01:04 AM

I
The ONLY strength Dragon Stompy has is Blood Moons and COTV [and to a certain point Trinisphere], if this cards got handled, we are playing with a bad cards.deck.:eek: You can try to argue against it as much as you want, but Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit Dragon are my NO MEANS good creatures. They are desperate options because we have no better creatures available. I think that the approach of the W-Hatebear-Chalice-Aggro will outclass DS as it has much more flexibility and constance than DS has...

I agree with this statement. But that's not a bad thing.

The fact is, that Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Chalice of the Void/Trini are such incredibly backbreaking cards that they win games by themselves even while playing with a far inferior subset of creatures when compared to most other decks.

But there is nothing about Blood Moon, Magus or Chalice that say they need to be paired up crappy creatures.

I think pairing them up with Lodestone Golems, equipment, and either additional disruption like Stone Rain, or Metalworkers, Covetous Dragons, Wurmcoil Engines, maybe Goblin Welder type threats is a viable route.

Most importantly though, it means that whenever Wizards does print some really powerful spells and creatures that cost 2R or 3R, this deck will come back with a vengence.

Alternatively, who says we can't morph this into a control deck with a stompy base.

Blood Moon + Magus + Chalice + Really powerful removal/control cards like Firespout, Metamorph, Ensnaring Bridge (completely cripples creature based strategies and can be recurred with Goblin Welder) and just one strong untargetable, recursive or artifact based win condition (Belcher, Cursed Scroll, Millstone, Call of the Skybreaker) could fare well.

NecroYawgmoth

05-09-2011, 10:25 PM

I agree with this statement. But that's not a bad thing.

Yeah, Chalice, Moons and Trini are really backbreaking. But how can you say it's not a bad thing to play with "bad creatures"? :confused: The Format is Tarmogoyf / Knight / Emrakul / Lordpumping big Folk creatures. Our Goyfskull Pass costs 4 mana more than regular Goyf. Our critters are bad, and I don't see any good substitues. Hell, I am going to test Covetous again, at least he is a big 3 Turn Clock with evasion, and EQ makes him more scary.

Omen of Fire is a bad card IMO. Anarchy is better [and cheaper] against White, and Boil is a card that isn't good enough against Folk.

BTW, how would an controllish version look like? I really can imagine something like 4 Ensnaring Bridges, but how do we win then? Koth / Chandra? Crucible/Stack...??? More controlish looks like Red Stax, More towards artifact Aggro looks like MUD with Moons...

Clark Kant

05-10-2011, 01:17 AM

It's good in the sense that the deck manages to do fairly well, even while playing such inferior threats (relative to their mana costs).

The fact that the deck does well, despite this limitation, points to the fact that the decks core disruption package (Moon effect, Chalice, Trini) is incredibly powerful.

We just need find something else to pair off this disruption package with. The

1. Moon Stax/Lodestone Golem/Stone Rain approach,

2. Controllish Firespout/Ensnaring Bride/Welder approach

3. Moon MUD approach

4. Agressive Affinity build with 8 Moon effects approach

all seem valid and I'm convinced that atleast one of those four is a superior direction to take this deck's disruption package towards. Some of these directions seem like they would fare better with Mox Opal instead of Chrome Mox.

Tivon

05-10-2011, 01:19 PM

The current approach is fine. I've top 16'd twice (loosing the last round to bad matchups to miss top 8) and someone recently placed very highly in a very large event with a very traditional build (found it - Masamune did it)

What we really need, is for wizards to print some creatures that are actually at an equivalent power level for their casting costs at the 2R, 3R and such casting costs - especially 2R. Preferably cards that aren't situationally good. Preferably cards that don't require continued resource investment to bring them up to their highest power level.

Until this happens, it is going to best for the deck to continue with what it has (the cheapest fat we can find). I personally feel that the 4 deck ideas you presented are all variations of decks that are fundamentally not dragon stompy

The metalcraft red stompy lists are interesting though. I would explore them if I had the time and capital to do so. Unfortunately - I don't. So I'll just keep going with what I have (at least until mental mistep starts to thin out)

Hopefully I'll have something to report after the weekend

NecroYawgmoth

05-12-2011, 03:18 AM

So what do you guys think about this non-Hellbent approach?

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Priest of Urabrask
3 Covetous Dragon
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

////

4 Pyrokinesis / Pyroclasm
3 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Tormods Crypt

Jelmerz77

05-12-2011, 05:04 AM

I have been watching the discussions for the past few weeks and don't get me wrong I think inproving the deck against bad match ups is a good thing but not if it makes the deck worse overall.

This deck in essence says "F#$% you" to the entire legacy Meta on a good day.

"You run an unstable Manabase"
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon

"Your mana curve stops at 2"
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

"You only play 1 win condition that is activated"
4 Phyrexian Revoker

But the first 2 locks are that definite that we need to play arround it not to screw ourselves.

Minimum cmc of 2 preferably 3. (and ofcourse in red and colorless)

This limits the choice of beatsticks heavily.
For me I still like the Hellbent route but I like FTK als but for now I prefer the Evasion of the dragons.

So my critters will be:

4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
2 Moltensteel Dragon

Some Equipment:

2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

And the Mana ofcourse:
4 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
10 Mountain

And SB something like: (If someone has suggestions I'm open to them ;-) )

3 Anarchy
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

Guess what I try to say is this:
Dragon Stompy can be like like "The Spanish Inquisition" (Not the deck but the Monthy Python sketch)
It can be annoying as hell and silly at the same time. It reminds people of the disadvantages of the decks they are playing
(Low manacurve, non basic lands) and that they need to take precausions.
(play basics, more variation in manacurve, etc)
As long as people don't do that, this deck can be the bomb (on a good day)
But when people are reminded of this (or face Dragon Stompy more often) this deck will be nothing more then mediocre.
ATM the local meta here is pretty favorable, about 35% ANT and lots of non Basics and low mana curves...
And expect this will continue for a 1 or 2 months so for me I will continue to run Dragon Stompy for a while since everybody will be toying arround with Mental Misstep for now.
But when the Meta shifts or people start to prepare for Dragon Stompy I will not try to fight the meta I will just happily take another deck. (And convert Dragon Stompy back to Imperial Painter or something)

anyway those are my 2 cents ;-)

Jelmer

Masamune

05-12-2011, 11:36 AM

Actually I don't like Moltensteel Dragon... Can anyone share all strategies with it? I read all of those Dragon posts written days ago when NPH came.
My point is (thinking playing any moon/ chalice/ trini effect thouhg):
Turn 1 for instace: Tomb, or even Mox, Chalice/ Moon (-2 life)
Turn 2: Tap tomb with some red mana floating and play MD (-2 Tomb again and -4 cc)
Turn 3 we have 12 life,remaining in peril moment while opp can just play a single removal like Edicts, Doomblades or any other stuff

I mean that Dragon makes our lifes down faster. I never go swing hurting me anymore giving to itself more and more attack pump with lifes. IMO isn't interesting

Thoughts? :eyebrow:

Zirath

05-12-2011, 01:36 PM

Does Phyrexian Metamorph have a role in this deck? It seems like it can be potentially brutal since it can copy Dragons and Raiders, combat Goyfs and take down legends (Progen is the big one here).

Not a big fan of Moltensteel Dragon since you hemorrhage life, which is actually a big issue against decks like Zoo.

Sword of War and Peace seems very strong in the aggro match up.

evanmartyr

05-12-2011, 04:59 PM

I am a massive fan of Moltensteel Dragon, but I'm not entirely certain it's a good fit for this deck. It represents a large investment of mana and/or life for a relatively mediocre creature that dies to nearly every single removal spell present in the format. Also, given the amount of life you're sacrificing for various acceleration and whatnot, it puts this particular deck in an even more precarious situation. I mean, while an extra mana is worth 2 life starting turn 1 in order to play lock pieces, I don't think it translates directly to an advantageous trade later in the game.

It also doesn't slot effectively into the mana curve where you really need an extra threat, which is at 2-3 mana. Options that I could find that might be worth trying are:

Defender of Chaos
Duergar Hedge-Mage
Arc Mage
Sulfur Elemental
Tattermunge Duo
Taurean Mauler
Thoughtbound Primoc

Taurean Mauler seems like the most obviously powerful creature, but Primoc seems to have little downside much of the time. Sulfur Elemental seems hilariously one-sided some of the time, and is one of the few creatures on the list that can conceivably dodge countermagic. Defender of Chaos is pretty weak on it's own, but it's the one creature on the list that doesn't get eaten by all the removal present in legacy.

Metamorph does fit the slot rather nicely, and shore up a couple of rough situations like Progenitus and the like. I'd say run more of him if you're concerned about having enough generic 3-mana threats.

jancz

05-13-2011, 12:40 AM

Dragon_Whelp

05-13-2011, 01:59 AM

I am a massive fan of Moltensteel Dragon, but I'm not entirely certain it's a good fit for this deck. It represents a large investment of mana and/or life for a relatively mediocre creature that dies to nearly every single removal spell present in the format. Also, given the amount of life you're sacrificing for various acceleration and whatnot, it puts this particular deck in an even more precarious situation. I mean, while an extra mana is worth 2 life starting turn 1 in order to play lock pieces, I don't think it translates directly to an advantageous trade later in the game.

All of that is true. However, there are three things that make Moltensteel at least considerable for me.

1. It doesn't require Hellbent.

I can't count the number of times I've sat with 2-3 cards in hand, desperate to dump them before my RPD loses its summoning sickness. Very often, I've let Chrome Mox hit the table without anything imprinted on it, just to empty that damn hand. Even worse things happen when I draw, say, Arc-Slogger or another expensive spell, essentially making my RPD much less powerful for a signle turn. Moltensteel does not suffer this drawback. I can easily invest both mana and life into its ability in order to hit for an impressive amount of damage - not as much as RPD with Hellbent, I assume, but still admirable.

2. It always has evasion.

Even if I am tapped out, I will still be able to swing for 4 flying damage (And more if I want to invest life into it). The same does not hold true for RPD, which is sometimes just a 3/3 with no abilities for 4 because you're tapped out.

3. It's an artifact.

Now, while this one is a major drawback, there is also one card that really loves this. Namely Mox Opal. Sure, it's legendary. But with Revoker, Moltensteel, Chrome Mox, Chalice and Trini, as well as maybe some Jittes in the deck, this is starting to look more and more like a worthwhile consideration to me. And Mox Opal is actually a really good card if you can get Metalcraft.

Octopusman

05-13-2011, 02:31 AM

Sword of War and Peace seems very strong in the aggro match up.

I also believe that sword of war and peace could be very good in this deck. I'm going to test it in the Mental Misstep meta at a tourney soon. If you lock up their hand with Trinisphere/Chalice, you can turn even a revoker into almost a 2 turn clock. Anyone that fetches + forces, or thoughtseizes would be dead.

The I feel the extra damage combos well with with our disruption package.

To be honest, I'm not too thrilled about the increase in merfolk since I seem to have issues against merfolk (hellbent with sloggers) even with pyrokinesis/boil/ratchet bombs. Is it really time to get Spinal Villains (if possible!)?

In all I have read about Dragon Stompy, it seems that some people do very well against merfolk. I'd like to hear their thoughts now since I expect to fight many soon.

At least Mental Misstep makes an additional 4 cards dead for them.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but I think sword of war and peace is great against control because no spout or swords on it, plus they usually have a gigantic fist full of cards. My only complaint is that Jace can still bounce a sword wielding creature.

So happy to see a healthy amount of activity in this thread. A metagame deck to be sure, but I feel that aside from Merfolk's basics, overall it is a good time for this deck despite others wondering if the deck is any good right now. It feel that although the deck's clock seems to be getting slower, perhaps sword of war and peace can help offset this.

It's funny what is cyclical, like Slogger's popularity. I'm hoping that the deck is someday able to not be optimal in a Hellbent version (which is both my opinion and personal preference) and Slogger will likely still be discussed then as well.
I'll be testing Priest of Urabrask soon. I expect good things from his manafixing into Slogger as well as getting a threat under a lockpiece as well as powering out a sword to demand an answer or win.

Octopusman

05-13-2011, 02:34 AM

I am in a really interesting position... I haven't really had real legacy experience yet I am investing in this deck. I feel like a lot of the discussion comes from actually playing in tournaments and having experience in the scene.

Hopefully I'll get to a legacy tournament this summer.

Of course there are nuances to every deck. This is a good one to start with. You'll win some and lose some. You'll learn how to board so that you can perform better against the decks that aren't hurt by Dragon Stompy's strategy so much.
If Dragon Stompy hasn't been present in whatever tournament you end up finding, results could be favorable. :)

Accelerate into locks, drop your hand and huge beaters and knock the opponent out quickly by turning creatures sideways.

d0ner

05-13-2011, 02:47 AM

Sure, with all those Artifacts, u will get Metalcraft for Mox Opal. But not at Turn 1! And all this deck wants is making silly things at turn 1! Turn 1 Mox Opal does nothing! Mostly T2 its not possible to get Metalcraft, cause u have 2 Lands and a Mox producing 0 Mana. So what do you want to play?

My current List:

//CREATURES
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Phyrexian Revoker

//STUFF
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song

//LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Yes, with Seething Song AND Arc Slogger! Song helps playing Moltensteel Dragon, Arc-Slogger and RDK, you can pitch it into Mox, and it boosts RDK and Moltensteel Dragons Power up. In my games, SS has never been a dead card. Oh, did i say it helps going Hellbent? It does!

Slogger is a Meta Call(k, the hole deck is a Meta Call), cause there are so many Goblins and GW Lists around where he is simply great. Thats also the Point for playing Revoker. A Noble Hierarch under Bloodmoon is Devil himself. He fits in.

Im not playing Equipment, cause it makes me slow. Fore sure a Sword makes Magus or Ape beating the Opponent, but the Dragons and Sloggers also hurts.

I'm playing this Deck now for years and test a lot of variants(without Hellbent, without Seething Song...) and i came to the conclusion that I'll never Miss SS. We are all in, playing Lockpiece + Thread is all we need to do. If we come to the Mid/Lategame, we loose. Lists without Seething Song don't change this Problem.

My Oppinion.

Tacosnape

05-13-2011, 03:14 AM

Dragon_Whelp

05-13-2011, 03:39 AM

ForlornEgoist

05-13-2011, 06:23 AM

So why don't people like him[Koth]?

Because he's the type of card that can greatly improve a slightly superior board position on our part but can pretty much never recover us from a poor board position. A topdeck Koth can be a game ender if we're staring down numerous creatures which we can't deal with. People like to assume that just because you drop a Planeswalker that they become an auto-target by opponents. Particularly in the case of Koth if I were the one who was playing against Dragon Stompy and I had the opportunity to push through an extra 5-7 damage I would much rather direct it at the dome rather than a Planeswalker whos first two abilities ultimately can't affect my already superior board position.

The only Planeswalker whom I've ever really targeted automatically is Jace 2.0. (-.-')

Forlorn Egoist

Dragon_Whelp

05-13-2011, 07:57 AM

Because he's the type of card that can greatly improve a slightly superior board position on our part but can pretty much never recover us from a poor board position. A topdeck Koth can be a game ender if we're staring down numerous creatures which we can't deal with. People like to assume that just because you drop a Planeswalker that they become an auto-target by opponents. Particularly in the case of Koth if I were the one who was playing against Dragon Stompy and I had the opportunity to push through an extra 5-7 damage I would much rather direct it at the dome rather than a Planeswalker whos first two abilities ultimately can't affect my already superior board position.

I have seen this argument several times before. And while there is truth in it, the fact is that Koth's first ability is 4 damage a turn unless they leave a blocker behind - not something that helps us regain our footing in a bad board position, but it does set up the recovery by weakening the opponent. The second one, however, does sometimes help. Well, helps me at least. You get enough mana to drop that big guy sitting in your hand - just two Mountains in play means that you have four mana, which is enough for everything but Arc-Slogger. Again, I'll agree that he's no Jace TMS or Elspeth 1.0 (The best of the Walkers, in my opinion), but I do think that he has his place in the deck as a 1- or 2-of.

Masamune

05-13-2011, 04:15 PM

Did anyone see my current list? I did take down a couple decks in current meta, getting 5 wins against Goblin, Bant, MonoBlack, SpiralTide and Merfolk. I just lost facing another goblin instead in round 4 (believe me! My opp topdeck a badlands playing Warren Weirding (when I was hurting him with a Slogger+Jitte :D).
My tips:
1) Play with DS with no great number of screw stuffs isn't a nice way when you thinking about win most decks in the format. I like to play with it to SCREW COMBO AND CONTROL DECKS. Aways. Case closed.
2) Lord of Shatterskull Pass and Ratched isn't too slow like most people is guessing at moment. I did in the last tournament crush Merfolks with two conters in the Bomb and roll up Gobbos with LoSP Turn 1 with Sething Song. Game 2 against Merfolks I did easy with just 8~12 hates (Kinesis, Bombs and Slooger, LoSP, Jitte). I mean that all of those aggro decks suffer enough when I play my first turn Bomb, or holding Kinesis, or even Turn 2 LoSP making Level 6 faster...whearever.
3) Yes, No-Hellbent DS.dec must to be tested. But please, I would like to see everybody still playing with all motherfucker cards (Moons, Trinis, Chalices).
4) My current list can disrupt controls with full sets of Moons. And slow down most combo decks like ANT decks with Chalices and Trinis. All of then is just a good matchup that reveal to me by statistics (great favorable using these full sets) that I would keep playing aways with my combo and control hates (well...chosen because I see the meta...).
5) Finally My SB is replete of cards that makes aggro decks cry (or not if I'm doing something wrong yet lol)

Train with this deck and you'll see how this can be a perfect weapon nowadays (my only mightmare was that masterpiece named VengevineSuvival, banned and resting in peace hehe). :laugh:

NecroYawgmoth

05-13-2011, 09:03 PM

Zirath

05-13-2011, 10:54 PM

Here's the list I've been thinking about and want to put to testing:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Pretty standard list but I think Metamorph has a lot of potential. Obviously it can work without the Hellbent component since that seems to be possible at the moment. I also think Priest can be extremely effective. I could easily send out Dragon and Raiders in place of Priest and Revoker.

NecroYawgmoth

05-13-2011, 11:11 PM

56 card decklist =P

I think Revoker is missing??? :laugh:

Zirath

05-13-2011, 11:34 PM

You're right. Revoker seems like the best choice here as it is completely ridiculous.

TheDarkshineKnight

05-14-2011, 05:21 AM

I like that list. Pretty solid.

FWIW, I've bailed back out on Dragon Stompy in favor of both a new weird Affinity build and a white Chalice Aggro with the new 3-drop Golem-Making Guy. Sexy as hell. Red still needs something to make me come back to this.

Post the goods with regards to the white Stompy deck. It sounds brilliant.

I'm guessing Ethersworn Canonist + Lodestone Golem + Golem guys?

Tivon

05-15-2011, 01:33 AM

jancz

05-15-2011, 04:24 AM

List is not worth looking at until I actually win IMO
I would disagree. I would like to see the list to try to understand why it did so poorly. Obviously missing the revoker was a big point but I would like to understand what else happened.

Masamune

05-16-2011, 09:12 AM

Just went 0-3 in a tournament without any revokers in the 75. All three matches they would have been relevent. Make it a point to play them somewhere in your 75, or you will be very, very sad that you didn't.

That being said, slogger and pit dragon were both still beast. I just needed the help with controlling vial when I had chalice at 1 and 2 in more than one match...

I also mulled to 5 twice, 4 once, 3 once and 6 twice. List is not worth looking at until I actually win IMO

Can u report what decks do you face to lose so easily? :confused:

By the way I'm training Dragom Stompy vs Dredge/ Ichorid decks and I'm losing...even if I play Trinis or Chalice. Ichorid itself screw me up aways. I don't take any SB slot for any grave-hate only to beat grave decks. I realize that Kazuul isn't that best option only facing Old Meta Suvival decks. This can be helpful with Bombs togheter.
Does anyone run grave-hates?

Gui

05-16-2011, 09:57 AM

So Masamune, when you say NO-Hellbent DS must be tested, I am willing to do the tests with you / for you =P.

we take :

18 Lands [standard]
16 mofu-Cards [yep, all as a four off]
4 Revoker [because he is good in a Chalice-Aggro Deck]
3 Jitte [because Hellbent is no longer an Issue]
8 Mox & SSG [is just needed]

That leaves us with 11 Slots which should be filled with the best creatures available.

Also I think that Priest of Urabrask is a fine addition in this deck, so maybe only 7 Slots for the big beats. Are you agreeing so far?

Oh, and May I ask how your Sideboard looks like?

So, 19 artifacts, make it 21 with 2 Molten, you can now run Covetous even without the artifact lands. Say you run 2 or 3 of them (you can run 4, w/e) and there you have consistant kill cons.

I like this line of thought. Now Covetous doesn't cost 4, so I'd say 3 Covetous, and now you got 2 slots remaining. I'd run either RPD, coz he's good even w/o hellbent, with the plus of being nutz good with hellbent, OR 2 Shatterskull Pass, which is 4cc 6/6 (since noone likes Shivan Wumpus somehow)

6 Mountain
4 Mountain Artifact
4 C-Mox
4 SSG
8 :2: lands

4 priest of gix urabrask
4 trinis
4 chalice
4 moon
4 moon w/ legs
4 needle w/ legs
3 Covetous
2 Moltenstell
2 Lords, because not only merfolks are allowed to run them.
3 Jitte

Just my $0.02 w/ a list

Zirath

05-16-2011, 10:19 AM

Can u report what decks do you face to lose so easily? :confused:

By the way I'm training Dragom Stompy vs Dredge/ Ichorid decks and I'm losing...even if I play Trinis or Chalice. Ichorid itself screw me up aways. I don't take any SB slot for any grave-hate only to beat grave decks. I realize that Kazuul isn't that best option only facing Old Meta Suvival decks. This can be helpful with Bombs togheter.
Does anyone run grave-hates?

Mmm, as a Dredge player, Ichorid (the card) is brutal against decks that rely on prison effects. You will need to get flying with a Pit Dragon and smash them in the air as quickly as you can. You might have to trade a bunch of your guys to stay ahead though.

Kazuul is definitely tech.

Masamune

05-16-2011, 11:48 AM

I found this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20754-5-2-Spiral-Tide-at-Paulinia.-01-05-2011&highlight=signature

Round 5 was against me xD. But I never played Revoker in game 1. He wrote that wrong

Tivon

05-16-2011, 07:09 PM

Can u report what decks do you face to lose so easily? :confused:

By the way I'm training Dragom Stompy vs Dredge/ Ichorid decks and I'm losing...even if I play Trinis or Chalice. Ichorid itself screw me up aways. I don't take any SB slot for any grave-hate only to beat grave decks. I realize that Kazuul isn't that best option only facing Old Meta Suvival decks. This can be helpful with Bombs togheter.
Does anyone run grave-hates?

Vial aggro
Vial Tempo
Spiral Tide (on Mull to 3...)

Note, in all three matchups, revoker would have been great. Naming vial or candellabra of tawnos

I don't have problems with Ichorid personally. Between Moon, Chalice, and trinisphere our main is a pretty good beating. Throw in revokers naming discard outlets and it gets better. Ratchet bomb left at zero, while dysnyergous with chalice is pretty solid against a swarm of tokens. I used to run grave hate, but haven't missed it

Masamune

05-16-2011, 08:56 PM

Vial aggro
Vial Tempo
Spiral Tide (on Mull to 3...)

Note, in all three matchups, revoker would have been great. Naming vial or candellabra of tawnos

I don't have problems with Ichorid personally. Between Moon, Chalice, and trinisphere our main is a pretty good beating. Throw in revokers naming discard outlets and it gets better. Ratchet bomb left at zero, while dysnyergous with chalice is pretty solid against a swarm of tokens. I used to run grave hate, but haven't missed it

@Moons: Ichorid can go with no lands avaiable just eating they own deck :s
@Chalice: Still woun't stop Dread return or Bridges that cames to grave
@Trinisphere: the best card against then IMO. But just delay a little
@Revoker: against what exactly? Flashback costs is static ability that works fine... Revoker is good only against LED
@Bomb: Ok, amazing eating tokens, not Ichorids yet :frown:

With no grave-hates I just pray for any avaiable screw card like Trinis in start hand or a CoTV and I pray also for not face Iona too early :x
My point is: ICHORID! Not tokens or flashback stuffs but Ichorid itself. Opp can swin 3 or even 6 damage every turn even watching us playing Moons/ Chalices...

NecroYawgmoth

05-16-2011, 09:40 PM

Zirath

05-16-2011, 10:27 PM

yep, Ichorid is the most annoying part in Dredge.
Revoker can name Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe, but that's not that much of a help. and Chalice 1 is usually better... Iona is also a B*tch

Dredge isn't THAT hard IMO, because many players can't really pilot the deck. IMO 2 Crypts [if any hate] is enough...

That will get you the bad Dredge players but the good ones can just steam roll you if you rely on that. A combination of Trinisphere and Chalice handles it well. Moons provoke them to throw a Firestorm to wipe your team.

NecroYawgmoth

05-17-2011, 03:20 AM

So, 19 artifacts, make it 21 with 2 Molten, you can now run Covetous even without the artifact lands. Say you run 2 or 3 of them (you can run 4, w/e) and there you have consistant kill cons.

I like this line of thought. Now Covetous doesn't cost 4, so I'd say 3 Covetous, and now you got 2 slots remaining. I'd run either RPD, coz he's good even w/o hellbent, with the plus of being nutz good with hellbent, OR 2 Shatterskull Pass, which is 4cc 6/6 (since noone likes Shivan Wumpus somehow)

6 Mountain
4 Mountain Artifact
4 C-Mox
4 SSG
8 :2: lands

4 priest of gix urabrask
4 trinis
4 chalice
4 moon
4 moon w/ legs
4 needle w/ legs
3 Covetous
2 Moltenstell
2 Lords, because not only merfolks are allowed to run them.
3 Jitte

Just my $0.02 w/ a list

I nearly totally agree with you...

I'd play 3 Covetous only because it costs 5 and is the finisher in this deck.
I don't know how good Moltensteel is in a non-hellbent list, cuz of the lifeloss and the not-so-all-in way.
Shatterskull is good, even if it is a bit clumsy, it's still the Red Goyf.

I think, we have a list like this then:

Screw:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Stuff:

4 Priest of Urabrask
3 Covetous Dragon
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana:

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

This leaves 4 slots. Now its the challenge to find out which cards are the best in these slots [Moltensteel / SoB&M / SoF&I / Metamorph / Shatterskull / FTK] -> I highly think more threads or 4 FTKs are needed / should be the last Slots.
[IMO it's FTK, because I <3 this card and we NEED to beat Merfolk]

maybe we could make -1 Jitte, +2SoB&M/SoF&I, +3 FTK for the last Slots.

opinions?

GoboLord

05-17-2011, 03:42 AM

I nearly totally agree with you...

I'd play 3 Covetous only because it costs 5 and is the finisher in this deck.
I don't know how good Moltensteel is in a non-hellbent list, cuz of the lifeloss and the not-so-all-in way.
Shatterskull is good, even if it is a bit clumsy, it's still the Red Goyf.

I think, we have a list like this then:

Screw:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Stuff:

4 Priest of Urabrask
3 Covetous Dragon
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana:

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

This leaves 4 slots. Now its the challenge to find out which cards are the best in these slots [Moltensteel / SoB&M / SoF&I / Metamorph / Shatterskull / FTK] -> I highly think more threads or 4 FTKs are needed / should be the last Slots.
[IMO it's FTK, because I <3 this card and we NEED to beat Merfolk]

maybe we could make -1 Jitte, +2SoB&M/SoF&I, +3 FTK for the last Slots.

opinions?

My oppinion isn't based on nearly as much experience/testing as yours but my impression is that the creature count is actually very low. Therefore I'd say that FTK > Swords when you worry about the Merfolk MU.
Those protection-Swords may also be suited for SB to change them 3:3 with Jitte after G1. (or you run a 2-1-split of Jitte and Sword for MD and a respectively 1-2-Split in SB).

So my suggestions fo the remaining 4 Slots would be: +4FTK
(And maybe: -1 Jitte, +1 U-Sword)

NecroYawgmoth

05-17-2011, 04:36 AM

My oppinion isn't based on nearly as much experience/testing as yours but my impression is that the creature count is actually very low. Therefore I'd say that FTK > Swords when you worry about the Merfolk MU.
Those protection-Swords may also be suited for SB to change them 3:3 with Jitte after G1. (or you run a 2-1-split of Jitte and Sword for MD and a respectively 1-2-Split in SB).

So my suggestions fo the remaining 4 Slots would be: +4FTK
(And maybe: -1 Jitte, +1 U-Sword)

yep, 19 creatures seem low, 1 more reason to run more creatures / Kavus...

My thoughts still telling me that a 2/2 split with Jitte and U-Swords still is the best configuration, but I could be wrong...

I don't want to play U-Swords in my board. I rather play Pyrokinesis or Firespout / Slagstorm...

Gui

05-17-2011, 07:08 AM

Necro,
I'd still play the creatures to kill fast. I feel that the deck has to have one of these in hand if the lock piece we land t1 is strong enough, and since all of them has disadvantages, I prefer the way I splited them, with 2 moltensteel and 2 shatterskull. If not willing to run moltensteel, I'd still run 4 shatterskull, then.

Now, what I don't know if is good enough for the effect offered is Priest of Urabrask. It seems like "2/1 and play something else too" is too fair for this deck. Maybe by switching Urabrask for FTK, then I'd try something like this:

7 Mountain
3 Great Furnace
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
3 Covetous Dragon
3 Umezawa's Jitte

d0ner

05-17-2011, 07:22 AM

If you play Covetous Dragon, then also play Great Furnace, like Gui does. Under Moon it's still an Artifact. The only Reason against is fear of wasteland, but Ancient Tomb fears this to...

NecroYawgmoth

05-17-2011, 07:42 AM

The problem with this logic is that gettin a red mana-source wasted is much more devastating then getting a sol-land wasted. Also I don't think that you need artifact lands with 19(+) Artifacts...

d0ner

05-17-2011, 09:01 AM

Thats the Point we are playing 8 Moon Effects ;)

Masamune

05-17-2011, 09:19 AM

Hey guys! I found a way to handle Ichorid decks, just run FTK and kill itself to remove bridges! It seens like a weird strategy but I believe that is great :laugh:

Zirath

05-17-2011, 10:09 AM

Hey guys! I found a way to handle Ichorid decks, just run FTK and kill itself to remove bridges! It seens like a weird strategy but I believe that is great :laugh:

It's not just the Bridges that are the problem. You need to be able to deal with Ichorid as well.

NecroYawgmoth

05-17-2011, 10:12 AM

Hey guys! I found a way to handle Ichorid decks, just run FTK and kill itself to remove bridges! It seens like a weird strategy but I believe that is great :laugh:

LOL -> made my day

btw, could you still tell me your actual sideboard? =P

Masamune

05-17-2011, 10:34 AM

My SB (depending the current meta of course...):
1x Slogger
4x Revoker
4x Kinesis
4x R. Bombs
2x Anarchy

@Zirath
I agree but I hate see Ichorids going to grave and making fu*king zombie tokens...

GoboLord

05-17-2011, 03:16 PM

The problem with this logic is that gettin a red mana-source wasted is much more devastating then getting a sol-land wasted. Also I don't think that you need artifact lands with 19(+) Artifacts...

That's correct.

Now that we are talkinbg about artifact-count: Did you guys already consider Etched Champion?

ForlornEgoist

05-18-2011, 12:19 AM

That's correct.

Now that we are talkinbg about artifact-count: Did you guys already consider Etched Champion?

Not in-depth but I think most of us are reluctant to go with a full-on artifact build Champion seems to flourish strongest in as an artifact-build would want to run a higher equipment count to support what would be suspected as MD Revoker/Metamorph.

Ugh, went 2-2 tonight. For some reason everyone in my meta decided to pull out their Merfolk decks. Literally 8-9 people played it tonight in a meta of 25. ><' Luckily I had built a SB expecting tribal aggro (not Merfolk in particular as I saw goblins/knights/slivers and 1 Merfolk last week). Here's my list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Seething Song
4 Blood Moon

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Arc Slogger
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
3 Taurean Mauler
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Firespout

Round 1: 43 Lands
Game 1: T1 Magus. Win. -3 Slogger, -1 CotV -2 3sphere, +4 Revoker, +2 Ratchet
Game 2: T2 Magus. I knew I had already won at this point as well, but to rub salt in the wound I went Revoker->Mox Diamond and used Ratchet to blow up his Exploration. Booyaka!

Round 2: NO Bant
Game 1: He goes T1 Fetch->Trop GSZ->Arbor, go. I T1 Tomb, Mox->Simian, 3sphere. He T2 Trygon. I T2 Morph RAkroma (Seething in hand). He T3 Atks, blows up Mox. By the time I draw into my second red source to cast Song he has a KotR/Trygon/'Goyf/Rhox. -4 Blood +4 Revoker
Game 2: I mull to 5 (Tomb/Mox/Simian/3sphere/Chalice). T4 he NO->Progenitus.

Round 3: Merfolk
Game 1: T1 Tomb-> Jitte. T1 Island. T2 Mox->Gathan, Song->Morphed Gathan, equip Jitte. T2 Island. T3 I swing Jitte +2. T3 Silvergill->LoA. I kill Silvergill EoT w/Jitte counter. T4 I drop a land, Song->Slogger, swing w/Gathan. He folds. -4 CotV, -4 Moon, -1 Magus. + 2 Kazuul, +2 Ratchet, +3 Mauler +2 Spout
Game 2: T1 Island. T1 Tomb/Mox->RAkroma->Song->Slogger. He attempts to Daze I RFG SSG. He T2 Island->Cursecatcher. Swing with Slogger, Mountain. He T3 Silvergill->Coralhelm, attacks w/Cursecatcher. I T3 LoSP, swing with Slogger; no blocks. He T4 Reejery. I T4 level-up Shatterskull, Shock Reejery/Silvergill, swing for 10 w/Slogger & Lord then Shock the remaining 2.

Round 4: Merfolk
Game 1: I forgot what happened exactly but from what I can remember I managed to get a leveled up Lord and a Hellbent Gathan on the field after getting a Chalice @ 2 which essentially won me it because he revealed 2 separate Coralhelms in his hand from 2 Silvergills (I knew it was 2 and not 1 'cuz I remembered which card he pulled from his hand to reveal) and I also knew he had a Daze in hand because earlier he was considering Dazing my Lord. -4 CotV -4 Blood -2 Magus +2 Kazuul +2 Ratchet +3 Mauler +3 Spout
Game 2: Essentially he uses 2 FoW and 2 Daze to stop my first 4 spells then runs over me with Merfolk.
Game 3: He mulled to 6. T1 Tomb->Ratchet. T1 Island->Cursecatcher. T2 Mox->Gathan, Morph in a Gathan. T2 Mutavault, Silvergill->Coralhelm. T3 Mountain->Lord swing with morphed Gathan, no blocks. T3 Island, Reejery. T4->Lord, swing w/Gathan, blocks with Reejery, Morph discarding Kazuul, Reejery dies. T4 Level-up Lord, swing with Lord/Hellbent Gathan, blocks Lord takes 5. T4 Island, pass. T5 play City sacing City, swing. T5 Sower->Lord. Shit! I topdeck a Spout thinking "Yes, I win!," then as I was about to cast it I realized: "Oh, wait. Sower has flying which I can't hit for lack of green. Dammit!" From here he is able to stall an attack for 3 turns, drops some extra Mutavaults to swing, then 5 turns later swings at me with my Lord, a Sower, a Cursecatcher, and 2 Mutavaults.

Literally 2-3 minutes before the tourney started I had seen at least 4-5 people goldfishing (ha!) Merfolk so I quickly changed my SB to try and be more competitive against Merfolk since I was confident I could handle the rest of the meta. As I've begun to notice more and more, Ratchet Bomb is utter junk. Seriously, it takes 3 bloody turns to rack up the necessary counters to remove the cards I need it to (Lords, KotR/Terravore, Enchantress stuff, etc.) which is more than sufficient time for all these decks to play around it.

I definitely wish I had SBed in Volcanic Fallout over Firespout. If 'Spout did the 3 damage to everything regardless of R/G I would keep it but I found out tonight that the flying was actually relevant. Not to mention the fact that in a meta of Merfolk the "uncounterable," woulda been nice although I don't intend to play DS for a while until the meta changes again.

Mauler-> Sexy against Merfolk. ^.^ Kazuul- fantastic against aggro and swarm decks like Merfolk.

Slogger's definitely pulled their weight tonight. I always had the worst time with them and hate them because of how many times they lost me a game but after removing the RPD's I've been finding them to be less troublesome as I can simply hang onto them until such a time when I can cast them rather than trying to frantically empty my hand for Hellbent. As for the Lord of Shatterskull Pass I thus far have found them to be an apt replacement for RPD. The 3R is much easier to cast than the 2RR, and after that additional 1R investment they can take down any opposing creature with exception to guys like KotR. Lord has been an incredible creature. I missed the Releases for Phyrexia so I was finally able to trade for some Moltensteels. I can't wait to test them out. Not sure what I'll take out for them, however. I might opt to remove possible 1 Blood and perhaps a Gathan for 2 Moltensteel. We'll see.

Anyway, yeah, I know I didn't post any real amazing results and its a small tournament but I still feel its important for us to post tourney results so we can see how various lists perform in given metas and whathaveyou.

A final thought: I think I might just buy/trade for a playset of Spinal Villain and throw 'em in the SB. Afterall, Merfolk is constant in my meta even if it isn't always 9 players and having an out to one of the worst MU's for DS seems nice. Or maybe I'm just spiteful. :P

Forlorn Egoist

NecroYawgmoth

05-18-2011, 03:01 AM

That's correct.

Now that we are talkinbg about artifact-count: Did you guys already consider Etched Champion?

Etched Chamion seems funny, but a bit "too fair" -> 3 mana for a 2/2 that's only good with equipment, AND we need to maintain Metalcraft are high requirements.

Here is an older calculation from Stephen Menendian regarding Metalcraft:

"After crunching the numbers, it turns out that the threshold number of artifacts needed to draw 3 of them over 85% of the time in your opening hand is 33. With just 32 artifacts in your deck, you are only likely to draw 3 or in your opening hand 83.9% of the time. A marginal increase to 33 raises those chances to 86% of the time. Therefore, 33 artifacts is our baseline for reliable use of cards with Metalcraft. What this means is that, all things equal, any non-artifact card with Metalcraft will likely need at least 33 other artifacts in the deck."

@ ForlornEgoist: It sounds stupid, but if you haven't that turn 1-2 Spinal Villain it is likely always too slow against them. They will also most likely board Blasts, so maybe it's better to leave the COTV in the main, and board the Trinispheres out, cuz they can fuck you up with Wastelands...

ForlornEgoist

05-18-2011, 03:44 AM

I doubt I'd ever actually run the Spinal Villain's because it doesn't really boost my board position when they have a bunch of merfolk swarming the field and let's face it the only other deck I could realistically use it against is probably Bant. Still, it would feel nice just once to resolve that T1 SV and just completely own them from the getgo rather than trying to become the god of topdecks as I attempt the resolve what I consider essentially moot disruption against their deck.

As for the CotV vs. 3sphere that was kinda a judgment call. You can make arguments for both. Since I've altered my creature base I've had a much stronger MU against Merfolk and have found the biggest annoyance to be resolving spells. I felt that if I kept the 3spheres in I could shut off their counterspells of which CotV does not. I pretty much never have the opportunity to get a Chalice @2, so I was looking at the Chalice @1 vs. 3sphere debate. Yeah, I nix BEB/Hydro/Vial/Pierce, but I also keep their 8 free counters enabled which is what I most often lose to in this MU. I decided to risk letting him get a few extra creatures/2-4 kill effects in exchange for shutting off 8-12 of his counters.

Albeit the Chalice @2 was relevant in my first Merfolk MU but I'm more than sure I would have won regardless of whether or not that had been a Chalice or a 3sphere. In fact, if I hadn't of had that Chalice@2 I could have gotten an active Jitte on the table. :/

Forlorn Egoist

Zirath

05-18-2011, 09:08 AM

So I tested Phyrexian Metamorph a little bit and it is really strong. Copying enemy creatures has been consistently useful since creatures like Tarmogoyf can be problematic since we don't have a hard check for them if they come out quick.

Masamune

05-18-2011, 09:44 AM

@ForlornEgoist
Let me say some comments here (please I just wanna help :tongue:)
I don't recommend run more than two LoSPs. They are terrible in multiples. Slogger also. IMO Slogger is slight better against swaraggro but LoSP is better facing Goyf decks. My list actually has 2 of then.
Furthermore I see your SB and I realize u wanted destroy with any weapon any creature in play (like fishes lol). Too many Firespouts (I don't like it too much I prefer Kinesis).
1) Lands> you should take out -1 LoSP, stay with CoTV and any Slogger. Maybe 1 or even 2. However here our amazing stuffs is the Moons.
2)NO-Bant> -4 Blood Moons??? Are you crazy?? IMO you should run Ratched here because that can eat Arbor and Nobles. Moon effects here is very good instead tough
3) Don't take out CoVT! Don't think that can just play with turn 1 break one cc spell. Against Merfolks u should play it paying for 4 to stop Standstills, Lords, Corahelms, Silvergils and Dazes! One card can do a lot here :laugh:
4) The same point I guess...

U said: " As I've begun to notice more and more, Ratchet Bomb is utter junk. Seriously, it takes 3 bloody turns to rack up the necessary counters to remove the cards I need it to (Lords, KotR/Terravore, Enchantress stuff, etc.) which is more than sufficient time for all these decks to play around it. "
Sorry I woun't say I agree with you. I know for instance an Anarchy is MUCH better than Bombs when opp is playing with any Enchantress deck. But I want to say: Bombs can detroy affinity decks, zombie tokens, Empty the Warrens Tokens and more.
Spinnal Villain is fine but very very specific.
Finally, if you want to destroy Reliquarys and even Progenitus don't forget Anarchy.

ForlornEgoist

05-18-2011, 12:33 PM

@ Masamune

Lands: Yeah, if I had thought of that more I might of done it a bit better but to be honest it was Lands and I was feeling very giddy/smug. Resolve 1 Moon effect and I essentially get a win so I obviously wasn't too concerned with SBing.
NO Bant: Yeah, I'm going to be completely honest in saying I had no idea what would be the best way to SB against this deck. I guess I fell into the newer DS player trap of auto-SBing out Moon effects if I know they run numerous basics and color-fixing creatures like Noble. In hindsight I can see that was definitely a mistake.
Merfolks: Yeah, you're right. I should have kept the CotV's in rather than 3sphere. My argument was how 3sphere disrupts counters and I was thinking more so of the fact that I don't always have the conveinance of getting a Chalice @2 but after you've said it I realized "Wow. Chalice @2 actually makes the games far more winnable. Disrupt 8 lords (4 of which can fly) as well as all their cantrips and even a counter!?!"

As for Ratchet albeit it can remove tokens and wreck affinity, but neither are prevalent in my meta. So I'm essentially looking at a board sweeper that takes several turns to destroy its intended targets which is ample time for my opponents to either punch through near-lethal damage or find some way to deal with Bomb.

@ Anarchy: Why, oh why, do I keep forgetting this card exists? Every time I play this deck I realize I need to get some Anarchys but then whenever I go to buy some cards I always forget to throw these stupid little .50$-$1 cards in the basket. --'

@ Kinesis: This has always been in my SB as a 4-of in place of where the 'Spouts usually go. I gues I just panicked when I saw all the Merfolk + GW Knights + Goblins so I figured a board sweeper would help out more. Funny thing is that if the 'Spouts I had drawn in both Merfolk games would have been 'Kinesis I would've had a slightly easier win in the first Merfolk game and I most likely would have won the 2nd Merfolk game as 'Kinesis is in fact an out to Sower. :P

@ SV: While I do plan to get a playset just because they're awesome I very much doubt I'd ever actually run them specifically because of how provincial they are. Also the fact that if I'm expecting a lot of Merfolk then DS probably isn't the deck to play. Unfortunately I've played 'naught but Enchantress for the past 2 months and I still need to get several duals for Rock to be finished so DS was really my only option.

Thanks for all the suggestions, Masamune. I think the biggest weakness I tend to have with this deck is knowing how to build a good meta SB as well as how to SB in/out. With Rock/Enchantress its incredibly easy as I know automatically what to do since I've goldfished/tested plenty of MU's with them to know whats effective but DS is a bit harder for me. I always appreciate tips/suggestions. ;)

Forlorn Egoist

Dragon_Whelp

05-18-2011, 03:44 PM

So this isn't really something I expect to be useful, but I'm still gonna post it because I love the idea of the card. Namely Tormentor Exarch. The whole built-in removal/pump seems pretty cool to me. It's probably far too weak to be playable, but maybe as a sideboard card against creatures? Maybe?

Gui

05-18-2011, 03:56 PM

Dragon_Whelp

05-18-2011, 04:10 PM

Card taggin' Tormentor Exarch

Ah, thanks, gonna fix that in the original post.

LostButSeeking

05-18-2011, 04:26 PM

Masamune

05-18-2011, 05:46 PM

@ForlornEgoist
Glad u get it :cool:
I take 3nd over 104 people weeks ago and I'm going to play with it again next Sunday.
A little report by me:
1) Gobbos. Turn 1 song, LoSP. Opp vial. 6/6 turn 2. Hiting with it making opp play any goblin to block it. He scoop. Game 2: -8 moons, -4 trinis, -1 rider. +4 Bombs + 4 Kinesis +4 Revokers +1 Slogger. I remeber that match I just did a Jitte turn 1 and Slogger turn 2.
2) PROBant. Turn 1 Magus of The Moon. Too many fetches and duals. gg. Game 2: +4 Bombs +4 Revokers. -2 Jitte, -2 Riders. -4 Trinispheres (I don't remeber actually which cards I exchange, Trinis or other stuff). Moon again, counter. Slogger, resolves. 2 damage on a single Hierarch. He never did a Natural order. Just a Green Sun's Zenith searching a crap 3/4 lifelink. I eat my deck to 16 cards to kill the rhino. A Chalice @1 pissed him of :tongue:
3) Mono Black. Thoughtseize take Trinis. Mana screw. I lose. Game 2 camin' up my army again taking out all moons...... LoSP 6/6 and Riders with hell bent. A Dragon appear. No chance for him. Game 3. Jitte + Slogger made him cry :laugh: Confidant died. CoTV @1 here was amazing. No rituals, Duress, Seizes or Innocent Blood.
4) Gobbos. The only match I lost. Game 1: Turn 1 LoSP. Weird to sac. Turn 2 Riders, turn 3 Dragon. All hellbent active. Turn 4 14 damage with Goblin King and Vial in table. gg. Game 3: Slogger + Jitte. All stuffs here again. Kinesis make him cry and Rishadan makes me cry tapping my mountain every turn. He plays a goblin and let me untap. Song, song, 8 mana floating. Slogger, Jitte, -2 Goblin. I swin with Slogger. That game was mine. Opp topdeck a Badlands playing Weird. Too many goblins and Piledriver 7/2. I scoop.
5) SpiralTide: Trinisphere + Chalice here. Not difficult. No need to say nothing
6) Merfolks: Game 1: Chalice @1. Turn 2 Chalice @2. Turn 3 Slogger. gg. Moving out again moon stuffs............Game 2: Cursecather turn 1. Trinisphere get Dazed. Bomb resolves. LoSP next. Sower steal my horny guy. I didnt expected that. gg. Game 3: Bomb. Turn 2 Riders. ~~ turn 4 or 5 Slogger. I drew Kinesis making fishes visit the grave. I drew a Jitte. Nice and not difficult match. Sweet :smile:
7) I peek two cards saying: Mulligan. Bad behavior. DQ. 3nd that moment. If I did it the National vacancy would be mine plus mouse pad and 54 booster packs :cry:

@Dragon_Whelp
Yes, FTK is better :rolleyes:

Dragon_Whelp

05-18-2011, 06:04 PM

I know, I know. But... FTK is so boring. I mean, this guy seems like he belongs in Silent Hill. This guy rapes Pyramid Head. Can't he pump an RPD or something? I mean, FTK can't do that, it would just end up killing it.

...No, wait, the 4 mana would be better spent on just giving it +4/+0...

Sigh...

ThoSha

05-18-2011, 08:53 PM

Apparantly i came up with following list which seems REALLY solid to me, as i just had a solution in mind over matters like dumping hellbent, adding priests, keeping seething song in for more solid acceleration and having SOFI back. Its a 61 card deck but it seems perfect to me:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Priest of Urabrask
4 Seething Song
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
2 Metamorph
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Anarchy
3 Knesis
4 Mental Misstep

Maybe you could consider removing a Song or a Revoker, but i think it really fits nice all together.
Besides SOFI being nice one could also consider cutting them for a 3rd jitte and a batterskull maybe.
Any toughts?

NecroYawgmoth

05-19-2011, 03:40 AM

Well, 60 cards are always better than 61. I think I would kick a Moltensteel...

Besides that, Me & Gui are also trying on a non-Hellbent approach. List can be seen on page before. We think we found a new "secret sideboard tech" against Merfolk... =) Want a hint? It's from one of the crappiest Editions ever =P

@ Tormentor Exarch... For the love of Silent Hill. I wish I could play this card, too bad that this artwork is given to such a crappy card. =( FTK is superior nearly everytime.

And for Sword of Fire & Ice: I really love it. But SoB&M seems so good in DS. Afaik Ivanpei and Drew Levin in his Article were the first 2 who tested SoB&M, and Drew wrote the following about it:

--> "Go ahead and guess which creature this deck is going to lose to the most. It's not Cursecatcher. It's not Goblin Guide. It's Tarmogoyf. A counter-backed Tarmogoyf is cheap and fast enough to resolve before Dragon Stompy can reliably set up its mana disruption. Once it's in play, DS has no real options on how to get rid of it.

As a result, you have to race. If you can't race, you have to defend. Sword of Body and Mind does both admirably: you attack through their Tarmogoyf, create a blocker to which you can equip Sword so as to not get raced back, and start cutting down on the outs they have left in their deck.

Sword of Fire and Ice was the best choice before Scars of Mirrodin because it suppressed tribal decks. Since Scars, however, Dragon Stompy has the Sword it really wanted (and needed)." <--

So the question is, is the pro green more relevent than 2 dmg and drawing a card? [think about that only 3-4 creatures in our deck have evasion, we are not Fairy Stompy.]

EDIT: -> @ ThoSha: Mental Misstep Oo in the board against what??? We play COTV >.>

Masamune

05-19-2011, 08:05 AM

@ThoSha
I don't know... 4x MoltenSteel and 4x Revokers makes Moxen hard to imprint. And Mental Misstep isn't good IMO

Gui

05-19-2011, 09:43 AM

Here's another idea, not THAT thought, just unbound ideas:

Under the "equip-a-bear" strategy, I'd try to make sure I have a shotgun for whichever bear I had on table, and play easy-to-cast bears. Since no bear has evasion, Ivanpei's statement is true, more than ever.
Which are the best 3cc/2cc creatures available, besides magus, urabrask and revoker?

To a clue on what I'm talking abou:
//Maindeck
// Mana (26)
10 Mountain
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

// Lock (20)
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker

//Kill (14)
4 Priest of Urabrask
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
4 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Umezawa's Jitte

These Shatterskull could easily be a 3cc guy, so that you follow the strategy:
T1 - lockpiece
T2 - bear
T3 - Equip bear -> hit hard

Urabrask makes this strategy a viable T2: bear attacking with jitte/swords under lockpiece. This is strong if nothing gets countered, but is still somewhat strong if they do get countered, because equipment can make underlings into threats.

Maybe shatterskull could be Jaya Ballard there instead, since she's a pseudo-lock?
But I'm sure someone tested something like that before?

Dragon_Whelp

05-19-2011, 10:11 AM

Which are the best 3cc/2cc creatures available, besides magus, urabrask and revoker?

Tarmogoyf.

Oh, you mean creatures that are playable in this deck.

Uh... Porcelain Legionnaire? Or is the life payment too harsh? I'm not sure, really.

EDIT: Or Spinal Villain. Heh.

Arsenal

05-19-2011, 10:17 AM

Sulfur Elemental may have value, especially in the equipment-heavy builds that people are advocating. An eot Sulfur Elemental, which can't be countered by the way, when you have an equipment waiting for a carrier, can be a decent play. And even without equipment, he's a 3/2 beater that is uncounterable and that can trade with a Rhox War Monk, flashed in for combat tricks, etc.

Gui

05-19-2011, 10:18 AM

Tarmogoyf.

Oh, you mean creatures that are playable in this deck.

Uh... Porcelain Legionnaire? Or is the life payment too harsh? I'm not sure, really.

I think 19 is a minimum to imprint chrome, so I'd say it has to be red and non-artifact

Dragon_Whelp

05-19-2011, 10:19 AM

I think 19 is a minimum to imprint chrome, so I'd say it has to be red and non-artifact

Oh yeah, forgot the Mox. Dang.

Masamune

05-19-2011, 11:48 AM

Hey guys how about try to test Flameblast Dragon in DS?

Zirath

05-19-2011, 01:09 PM

Seems really mana intensive. How easy is it for us to put out the Dragon and be able to win on the back of its blaze attack?

ThoSha

05-19-2011, 01:55 PM

@Necro
Maybe i am stupid, but i dont get your hint for merfolk :D pn please :X
As for the swords.. i guess its dependant of meta and preference. I havent seen goyfs lately, but merfolks and affinity increased in numbers. Pro Blue is huge against Folk and Master of Etherium, so i came back to SOFI gladly. As for 61 cards you are right, but there is nothing i want to cut. :(
The biggest point of my list was the including of Seething song AND priest, which seems so damn broken on paper. Imagine 1st Turn Priest into Seething, Chalice1 & Trinisphere. Also same turn Sword -> equip or Batterskull seem good. Running Priest is not a reason to cut Songs at all. As for the Dragon, he is the biggest Kill Condition. Running only 3 pieces seems subpar to me. Maybe a split of 2 Covetous and 2 Moltensteels seems better with moxes, just brainstorming. ^^
I will definitly come back to Dragon Stompy soon and post some results.

Btw what is wrong with boarding Chalices out for Mental Missteps on the draw?

@Gui
I like your build too. 4 Swords and 3 Jitte seems strong in such a deck.
But wouldn't Moltensteel Dragon easily replace LoSP?

Edit: Nvm, its only playing 19 red sources for chrome mox :( just realized..

guidogulp

05-19-2011, 09:58 PM

Can't see why FTK isn't in DS MD, for me it totally goes with DS strategy. It comes in and sth leaves (almost every time), and for those who play equip DS it works great as well.

Other tip, has anyone considered Fortune Thief for the SB? It's an autowin against every deck without removal and, for those with removal just having a CotV@1 makes our day.

I mean it beats Merfolk, Show and Tell, Dredge, anything with Swords to Plowshares by having a chalice@1, Affinity without Tezz, and some others...

Any toughts??

Greenpoe

05-19-2011, 10:26 PM

It's been tried before. You can still die to Tezz's ultimate because lifeloss can kill you.

guidogulp

05-19-2011, 11:24 PM

That's why I said "Affinity without Tezz", but nvm I think it solves our problem against merfolk and show and tell

Shawon

05-19-2011, 11:32 PM

re: SnT, Emrakul can still annihilate you.

guidogulp

05-19-2011, 11:34 PM

lol, haven't considered that! :P

Masamune

05-20-2011, 03:13 AM

Against SnT > Revoker (Really a bad matchup)
Against Affinity and Merfolks > Bomb (I like to run 4)

FTK is terrible against TES, Ichorids, Belchers, and Control decks. Can do nothing when opp aready have Goyfs, Progenitus, Tombstalkers... I'm not advocating U shoudn't run it, just telling all negative points.

d0ner

05-20-2011, 06:44 AM

FTK is terrible against TES, Ichorids, Belchers, and Control decks. Can do nothing when opp aready have Goyfs, Progenitus, Tombstalkers... I'm not advocating U shoudn't run it, just telling all negative points.

Against Ichorid FTK removes the Bridges!
Play him and target himself for the Damage -> No Bridges :D

NecroYawgmoth

05-20-2011, 08:29 AM

Yuri8

05-20-2011, 08:56 AM

Gui

05-20-2011, 09:54 AM

I agree that he seems nice on paper, but once your opponent get better board position shivan wumpus is completely useless, it's like sacrifice a land: your opponent cant play spells this turn, if you repeat this process next turn he won't even draw card next turn. As you said, if he's not played in first two turns alongside with trini/chalice/moon wumpus will only slow you. From my point of view dragonstompy is too inconsistent to have another unreliable creture.

But isn't it the objective of the deck? Land a High-power beatstick by first 3-4 turns (No, your opponent doesn't always get 3 lands within 3 turns, despite of whatever people may think. Specially with Chalice/Trinis breaking Brainstorm and Sensei's spinning toy) or die trying?

Every DS creature is a sort of Win-more, because DS usually wins on the back of lock pieces, not despite of them, and then, when opponent is locked, you need to win fast, because our locks don't last forever.

I think it's a valid playtest target, highly controversial, but valid.

*Flame-proof vest: check*

Masamune

05-20-2011, 10:18 AM

cons:
-ugly artwork =P

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA XD

Clark Kant

05-20-2011, 11:53 AM

FTK is terrible against TES, Ichorids, Belchers, and Control decks. Can do nothing when opp aready have Goyfs, Progenitus, Tombstalkers...

That second part is not really true. You can swing with all of your 2/1 or 2/2s, and if your opponent blocks one of them with Goyf of Tombstalker, you can FTK it to death in your second main phase. And as mentioned already, FTK is quite decent against Ichorid. As for TES and Belcher, I'm not sure how popular those decks will be with the rise of Mental Misstep to supplement FoW and Daze as yet another free counterspell.

FTK is not a bad option in a nonhellbent list alongside cards like Covetous Dragon, Moltensteel Dragon, Shivan Wumpus, Phyrexian Revoker (or that 2cc 3/1 first strike dude) and Priest of Urabask

Clark Kant

05-20-2011, 12:04 PM

Has anyone of you ever thought about Shivan Wumpus? I know the drawback seems bad, but let's still think / discuss it as a non-Hellbent critter.

pros:

-can be imprinted =P
-6/6 Trample for 4
-synergizes with a first turn Trinisphere as opponents want sac lands then
-synergizes with Blood Moon [people start fetching basics against DS, so they don't want to sac them]
-Legacy Decks usually have greedy manabases [few lands]

cons:
-even a worse topdeck with Trinisphere [VERY bad after turn 3-4]
-antisynergy with Blood Moon [people can sac their Mooned and not-needed Mountains to timewalk us]
-ugly artwork =P

So what are your thoughts?

*prepares to get bashed*

Shivan Wumpus is better here than he would be most decks because he can be played on turn one or two, and most decks are usually going to suffer a significant tempo loss if they sac lands before turn 4. He is a bad top deck midgame, but I think it's worth the trade off since this is a fast deck.

Shivan Wumpus also sounds PERFECT for a Land Destruction version of this deck playing cards like Lodestone Golem, Stone Rain, Goblin Settler etc.

Stone Rain and Goblin Settler also work really well with Blood Moon since they can blow up the only basics your opponent has in play after you land a Moon effect.

2Rach

05-20-2011, 12:31 PM

I've been testing a build with Moltensteel Dragon and have decided everyone should be running Moltensteel Dragon as a 4-of. Whoever isn't is doing it wrong. It's almost like a RPD that doesn't need Hellbent or double R. It's phenomenal!

Clark Kant

05-20-2011, 12:32 PM

Yeah, Moltensteel does have the potential to be absolutely amazing. It seems like it would pair off very well with 2 Covetous Dragon as well.

2Rach

05-20-2011, 12:45 PM

ForlornEgoist

05-20-2011, 03:59 PM

A few questions:
1. What do you guys think of Koth of the Hammer?
2. Does Arc-Slogger do enough for you guys?
3. If you had to pick two, if any, would you do Jittes or two SOFIs?
4. Has anyone tried Batterskulls as a finisher/extra equipment?
EDIT:
A little more:
What are the top 3 performing cards for you? In MD/SB?

1) In regards to Koth of the Hammer the problem I've most often found with him is that he does little if anything to pull you out of a poor board state and really only helps tip the game more in your favor if you're either already sitting on an amazing board position or if you're somewhat balanced and need a little extra boost. Ultimately I think he's not worth running because he needs much more protection than other planeswalkers to be useful and he isn't really the type of planeswalker that has an auto-target on his head so he can't even really find use as a redirect for one of their creatures.

2) I've been on-and-off with Slogger. Most of the time I've found him acting as a red 'Goyf for me not to mention particularly against decks like Merfolk having a creature than can shock Lords becomes especially viable. That having been said, I think his ideal number is between 2-3 as while I do want to seem him on ocassion I never want to see more than 1 majority of the time. Also, I've come to realize that sometimes the 3RR is a hassle to cast and he just sits in your hand which is something you don't want to see in the Hellbent build of DS. I've strayed away from Hellbent (removing Rakdos Pit Dragon) and have found him much stronger as I can keep him in my hand if necessary rather than forcing an imprint/discard for Hellbent.

3) Since Scars was printed I've found SoBaM to be much more viable than SoFaI. Since Junk has become much more popular and with decks such as NOBant returning our deck needs to have an out to deal with 'Goyf/KotR and other beasties. Pro-Green is much more relevant than red/blue. True, milling cards can be detrimental but in most cases I'm seeing the primary GY-based strat is primarily pumps for KotR. I've seen less and less decks such as Lands/Loam/Dredge etc. so milling seems irrelevant. Not to mention we also gain a token to protect us during their combat step. There is also to consider that one variant of DS that seems to be merriting some attention is one that focuses more on 1 or 2 beasties with a bunch of smaller guys (Revoker/Priest/Magus/SSG) that rely on equipment to do the job so enabling even a mere 2/2 to deal with 'Goyf/KotR seems promising.

That having been said, my personal preference is to run Jitte (3 MD) for the necessity of creature removal. I have a much more aggro-heavy meta so creature removal is much more relevant to me than Pro-X. Which equipment you run is of course based on the build you run. If you're like me and run big creatures like Gathan/Slogger/RAkroma/Lord of SP/Moltensteel then Jitte serves you sufficiently as you can already take down most big creatures and are looking more for an out to swarms of creatures. If you run a build focusing more on smaller creatures with cool effects (Magus/Revoker/Priest/Metamorph) then the Swords are the way to go. I would say so long as you pick a sword thats Pro-Green you'll be fine. You could even run a split, going something like 2 Jitte/3 Sword or 2/2.

4) If I were to run Batterskull I most likely would opt not to run Sloggers or throw them in the SB. The issue being that we don't want our deck to be clogged with too many 5cc. Batterskull serves you much more adequately in the main and will function against nearly any deck in either life recoup or simply helping to overpower opposing creatures. Slogger seems like he'd function decently as a SB card as not every deck necessarily warrants spot removal from us and Shocking 8 damage to the dome essentially results in only 1 extra combat step from us most of the time. I personally am not fond of it, of course I also have had very exclusive play testing for it so I wouldn't make an opinion based on what I'm saying here.

5) For me the top performing cards would have to be Lord of Shatterskull Pass, Phyrexian Revoker, and Jitte. Lord of SP has enabled me to effectively deal with any opposing creatures short of Emrakul-esque/X/X (Eg. KotR/Terravore) creatures. Revoker[SB] for obvious reasons but particularly as my meta has several UR Painters which are able to play around nearly all of my MD hate. Jitte, as discussed above, for obvious reasons as well. The card is strong against nearly every deck and typically becomes the number one priority for most opponents to removal.

Of course Moon effects are amazing, but seeing as how all of us are DS players I'm sure we've all deduced at some time or the other how amazing they are so I feel it moot to repeat this fact.

Forlorn Egoist

jancz

05-23-2011, 07:48 PM

Has anyone considered basilisk collar? I think it could be interesting. Biggest problem I see is it conflicts at Chalice @ 1 and also gets hit by mental misstep. It also gets punished by trinisphere. However I think turning slogger into a death machine, allowing small guys to punch gofy in the face and turning a hellbent rakdos into a virtual baneslayer. (Maybe better as Baneslayer doesn't have first strike death touch) has some merits.

whitescorpion

05-27-2011, 06:30 AM

Hi guys! I never really posted here much, so you may want to go easy on my formatting. It's less than 3 hours before I head for providence. I was considering the following list:

4 x City of Traitors
4 x Ancient Tomb
10 x Mountain

3 x Blood Moon
4 x Magus of the Moon
3 x Trinisphere
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Chrome Mox

3 x Gathan raiders
1 x Akroma, Angel of Fury
2 x Arc- Slogger
4 x Simian Spirit Guide
3 x Phyrexian Revoker
3 x Fire Imp
2 x Moltensteel Dragon
2 x Lord of Shatterskull Pass

2 x Seething Song
2 x Umezawa's Jitte

SB: Undecided as of yet. But def some grave hate in the form of Tormod's crypt. I really like the idea of Omen of Fire a LOT. It's usually a Progenitus kill vs elves or decks like pattern/order that don't really have plains, plus if they have non-basic plains it's a bonus. It bounces all Islands back to their hand. Yeah, I wish it destroyed them too, but this probably buys you infinite time vs MUC or landstill.

The main hesitation in the Maindeck is just the numbers. I know the creatures are right and Fire Imp has proven itself many many times. A t1 or 2 answer to a mana dork or to kill a dark confidant. Small enough damage to continue the aggro when your opponent doesn't have any creatures in play. Kills a Lord of Atlantis. I also considered Ghitu Slinger, but the echo never really appealed to me. Then again, it may be better vs. dredge.

vs Folk, you can t1 revoker naming vial, then t2 an imp to kill a merfolk dork and swing with revoker. It's usually more relevant than a lot of the other plays. I guess I chose jittes as equips for now, but I coul switch them back to Sword of body and minds since it's the one that allows you to go through goyfs and leave a few blockers behind sometimes even equipped.

PS: I really like the idea of a batterskull in the SB. Too often the deck has very little to do late game if the opponent is stabilizing. Also the bounce plus re-cast is great .

Masamune

05-27-2011, 11:54 AM

Play with it and post your results here ^^

evanmartyr

05-27-2011, 01:32 PM

Fire Imp is iffy, since it's not a may ability. If there's no other creature on the board, it has to hit itself. Although it does seem absurd from a tempo perspective against stuff like Elves/Bant/etc.

NecroYawgmoth

05-27-2011, 01:44 PM

It has the same pro/contra arguments than FTK.

FTK is in everything DOUBLE as good, and costs 1 colorless more...

Koby

05-27-2011, 01:44 PM

Pyrokinesis has always been great for me in the SB against a variety of swarm decks, especially Elves. Make sure to include it if you anticipate playing them this weekend.

evanmartyr

05-27-2011, 05:36 PM

Goblin Settler is a great find; LD that carries equipment and isn't outrageously expensive (and doesn't have Echo) is sweet.

supermoo9999

05-27-2011, 10:52 PM

Hey all.

While I can't make it to GP Providence this weekend, I'm looking to play @ SCG's Legacy Open in Indy one week from Sunday. DS looks quite well positioned at the moment, but I've been having issues with the Merfolk matchup. So here are my thoughts/questions:
- Disruption: It seems *crucial* to have disruption t1 or 2 (or Jitte + dude) to have a reasonable shot at staying in the game. Is this correct, from your experience?
- Threats: Arc-Slogger is obviously amazing, and Revoker MD has worked out quite well. Also, it seems that the consensus for equips is SoBaM and/or Jitte, which clearly nail Merfolk.
- SB: How tech is Mauler? I still have some number of open SB slots; do you believe he's worth it? What other SB cards (besides Pyrokinesis, obv) are good for this MU? What should we side out?
- Postboard: How do we avoid getting owned by Dismember? I just tested against a post-NPH build, and that thing is nuts in Merfolk. The obvious answer seems to be "resolve more threats" - do we drop accel for them? This card is really giving me problems :frown:

Also, more general question: what's everyone's opinion on Seething Song?

Clark Kant

05-28-2011, 01:25 AM

I think it's safe to say that the Hellbent is no longer the best approach to take this deck.

Gathan Raider really isn't that great a card. You spend three mana AND a card from from your hand for a vanilla 3/3 that conditionally becomes a vanilla 5/5. Compare that to something like Tarmogoyf that for 2 mana is a 5/6 and doesn't cost you a card.

Even Rakdos Pit Dragon is incredibly easy to kill, and horrible if you don't have hellbent.

The nonhellbent threats (Moltensteel Dragon, Arc Slogger, Porcelain Legionnaire, Covetous Dragon, Flametoungue Kavu etc) are all superior.

Tivon

05-28-2011, 01:58 AM

Moltensteel, porcelain and covetous are all inferior. Flametounge kavu is a great sideboard card (especially for tribal match up - probably better to run that taurean mauler IMO - and I have run both), however, it is largely conditional as a beater mainboard. There are decks which it won't kill anything against and will clog up your hand an potentially have to be used to kill off something of your own just so you can swing for 4 a turn. With the recent increase of attention to more dedicated control, this is even more of a bad thing. It won't have any targets and will potentially just sit there uselessly.

Moltensteel can't pitch to mox and is life intensive in an already life intensive deck (thanks to tomb). I've tested moltensteel and I just can't see it making the cut. The lifeloss has never been worth it and has lost me more than one game. Porcelain legionnaire just isn't fat enough to get the job done typically. I've tested it in a few decks, and an ass of 1 just isn't big enough. I've shared my thoughts on covetous more than once - and it remains far too conditional for me to even consider playing at this point.

That being said, there should be at least 3 revokers in your 75, 4 if you can make it fit. I personally run them SB, as they are better as a surprise factor for me and I like to know what I'm playing against before I commit to playing out something that I might name the wrong card on.

and hellbent is fine. Masamune's finish helped to reinforce that if anything

ThoSha

05-28-2011, 11:26 AM

Anyone considered running Jaya Ballard again, now that the priest was printed?
I tested with 3 main and i was quite happy with her. :)
My new list has no sloggers but 4 Swords, Priests, Moltensteels and Jayas and is doing fine right now.

Kellyx

05-28-2011, 01:09 PM

I would add lightning graves to this deck=/ so we will have 2xjitt+1xLightning graves.
It suits this deck perfectly-we realy need haste and we realy gota protect our creatures, especialy considering we dont have many of them.
Arent you getting frustrated when rakdos gets killed by lightning bolt or StoP?

NecroYawgmoth

05-28-2011, 01:12 PM

4 Swords Oo. Don't know about it, seems a bit too much...

I played on a very small Tournament here today [4 rounds], and got first with a non-Hellbent List with a techy sideboard =P

Deck: Dredge

Screw:
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Kill/Tech:
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Body & Mind

Mana:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 An-Zerrin Ruins
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
2 Tormod's Crypt

short report:

Round 1 against Chris with ANT 2-1 [Gobolord]

G1: He starts with Fetchland & Ponder, I go with Tomb -> Chalice 1, next Turn I resolve a Trinisphere and he scoops.

G2: I resolve to Revokers on LED and Lotus Petal, and resolve a Shatterskull a bit later. At 1 life he Echoing Truthes my Revokers and Combos off.

G3: Chalice 1, then Revoker naming LED, Revoker gets equipped with Sword, 1 turn later equip with Jitte. After Sword mills his IGG and Tendrils, he scoops.

Round 2 against Steffen with GW-Aggro 2-1

G1: Moon resolves leaving him with basic Forets. Stoneforge finds Jitte, gets Disenchanted by my Jitte. Stoneforge and Revoker die in combat. He resolves Goyf, Goyf swings me to 1, I resolve Shatterskull with level up, He finds his basic Plains, and Pathes my Shatterskull to the win.

G2: At 1 life from Goyfbeatdown my Revoker gets a SoB&M and wins the game.

G3: Jitte disenchants Jitte, My Sword gets Gripped. I win with Shatterskull and FTK, Revokering his Qasali.

Round 3 against whoever with Kithkins 0-2

G1: I lose to horrible mana flood, and dead Blood Moons / Revokers, and just got overruned by ugly looking creatures I had never seen before.
G2: He resolves a Honor of the Pure, a Kithkin Lord, and a Preeminent Captain. I had a LVL 3 Shatterskull, and a Volcanic Fallout in my hand. I attack with Shatterskull, he takes 6. In his turn, he wanted to attack, and I wanted to kill all his crazy looking stuff, forgetting about his Honor of the Pure. =( Then he attacked with his Preeminent Captain and his Kithkin Lord, his Preeminent Captain brings in another Preeminent Captain which brings in another Preeminent Captain which brings in a Kinsbaile Borderguard. Swinging me down to 5. [Got life thanks to a Jitte which got O-Ringed and Swords to Plow.] I am now aware that Captain-chaining is not possible =(. Nevertheless, I lost against it, and was angry with myself about my missplay with Fallout.

Round 4 against Chris with GRB Goyf/Confidant/Lavamancer/Tombstalker-removal.deck

G1: I win with a Blood Moon, he could do nothing than cast Bolts.

G2: I had horrible mana-flood, and resolved a Mountain, and 3 Shatteskulls... all 4 got Bolted. The game ends with 8 Mountains and 3 Ancient Tombs, never seeing anything besides Trinis / Chalice and Moons and 2 Jitte

G3: I start with Moon, and win with a Revoker naming Lavamancer, which got equppied by a Sword. After I milled his Basics, he scooped.

Yeah, best opponent-score and stuff, I got first =P

I will cut the 11th Mountain as I was terrible often manaflooded =(

What could be a good 1-off for it ???

I am the brainwasher

05-28-2011, 04:47 PM

When you are really unsatisfied with the options out there for DS I can just recommend to "fill out" that slot with Priest of Urabrask, especially if you rely on 3 (!) Jitte and 5 Equipments. He's kinda a pseudo manasource which seem to make sense in front of your allover well working deck beeing a bit flooded, just my 2 cents

ForlornEgoist

05-29-2011, 01:01 AM

@ An-Zerrin Ruins By the gods! Homeworlds! I tip my hat to you, sir. Its actually not that bad.

I removed the RPD sometime ago from my build but found the Gathan still viable, particularly as I use them in addition to RAkroma but I definitely like the addition of the 4th Lord of S/P as well as 2 SoBaM. I think I might mimic your build somewhat dropping the Gathans for the lord/swords. Revoker shall remain a SB card due to my meta but I think altering my build like that will definitely improve it.

Kudos on the wins!

Forlorn Egoist

Kellyx

05-29-2011, 03:57 AM

So any ideas about lightning greaves?

Cmon its suits DS so good.Haste and shroud for 0 mana will solve so many problems

NecroYawgmoth

05-29-2011, 04:00 AM

Too bad that Stoneforge Msytic is white...

Kuldotha Forgemaster just for Greaves isn't worth it.

Without a option to search it, it looks kinda bad as a singleton, IMO.

-->Don't say Godo, Bandit Warlord.

ForlornEgoist

05-29-2011, 11:13 AM

So any ideas about lightning greaves?

Cmon its suits DS so good.Haste and shroud for 0 mana will solve so many problems

Although it solves the issue of targeted removal, Greaves ultimately is subpar in comparison to other equipment. The primary reason we run equipment isn't because we fear removal (due to our higher-than-average creature count and mass amounts of screw) but because we can't deal with opposing creatures. A KotR or a 'Goyf can often times halt our attack entirely and put us on the defensive. The limited burn we have access to (Fallout/FTK) usually can't kill such creatures, Bomb is too clunky, and Anarchy only hits white stuff which, although nailing KotR/Prog still leaves too many threats unanswered.

Jitte provides a suite of useful effects particularly against tribal. The Swords gives us protection from specific colors which can enable even a SSG or Magus to deal with bigger threats whereas Greaves only protects from removal. They also can provide additional effects to strengthen our position.

Shroud is ultimately irrelevant for our deck. Our screw slows their tempo so we compensate somewhat for our lack of cantrips. The removal suite for most decks boils down to 4 StP/PtE, in the case of Rock 3-4 Vindicate/1-2 GftT, and then assuming blue 8-12 counters and typically some mix of burn. Rock is becoming less popular than it once was, so I think you can afford to look past the 8-10 MD removal they sometimes run. Swords give us a static +2/+2 which forces a burn player to expend 2 burn spells/effects at minimum to kill the creature. Shroud fails to offer protection from counters so its irrelevant in this aspect, and essentially no deck I can name runs StP/PtE in conjunction with one another.

While Greaves certainly is not a terrible card its primarily used in EDH for the reason that Jitte/Swords offer so much more Legacy. If you really want Shroud, Whispersilk Cloak seems like it'd be somewhat more viable as you are at least getting Unblockable out of the deal.

ForlornEgoist

Octopusman

05-30-2011, 02:10 AM

I have thoughts about what has been said recently in this thread but I'll let my list speak for itself.
I played in a small tournament about 15 people today and I'm extremely happy with my list and found that I was correct in thinking that it's a good time for Dragon Stompy.
I went 3-2 and placed 9th (barely missing the cut to top8). In the top 8, there were many decks that had greedy manabases and would bend over to moon effects. There's always next time.

My first loss was round 1 to entomb/hulk combo. Game 1, I failed to get chalice for 1 or Revoker naming Bile Urchin and he had FoW for my Magus. Game 2, I stick a trinisphere and on my eot before his fourth turn he entombs for three mana getting hulk and then proceeds to untap, play necromancy and win. Very cool.
My second loss was to UW control and I was incredibly mana flooded.

Here's what I played:

Main

mountain 10
city of traitors 4
ancients tomb 4

trinisphere 4
chalice of the void 4
blood moon 4
magus of the moon 4
chrome mox 4
simian spirit guide 4
Priest of Urabrask 4
Sword of War and Peace 2
Rakdos Pit-Dragon 4
Gathan Raiders 4
phyrexian revoker 4

Side:
Seething Song 4
Arc Slogger 2
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs 1
Pyrokinesis 4
Anarchy 2
Ratchet Bomb

The side wasn't perfect, however this is the first time I tried to have a seething song/slogger/kazzul package in the board and I absolutely loved it. I personally still believe that slogger is strong and kazzul was good as well. I liked having the benefits of both the seething song list and the non-seething song list since I find that the SS version really helps against certain matchups but not all. I probably need better graveyard hate (especially after being horribly blown out by untomb/hulk). Slogger and Kazuul help with agro so much that I'm not certain the pyrokinesis is needed.

With that said, the main was wonderful today. People are again playing with greedy manabases and I can't even tell you how many times my opponents had dead mental missteps G1. I played against Mono U control, and other stoneforge mystic midrange/control decks and something else I can't remember right now.

Sword of War and Peace is the real deal. In almost any other deck, I feel there are better equips, but I run 16 (20 if you count revoker encouraging someone not to play a card they can't activate) cards main that try to prevent the opponent from playing spells. The deck wants to swing for the win as soon as possible. I swung for 22 with a pit dragon and 13 with a Gathan Raiders for example (Tangent - I disagree that Pit Dragon and Gathan Raiders are not great - they are amazing imo even without SoWP).
This deck hates going for broke and then having the beater removed. The protections allow the threat to remain on the board and the opponent will rarely survive a 2nd attack.
Typically, I like Jitte and SoFI, but after this swords' performance today, I swear by it.

Priest of Urabrask - allows you to get the sword online that much easier. Slips under annoying trinispheres or chalices. I am thoroughly impressed with this card. After playing with it today, I am unlikely to take it out any time soon since it allows us to get a clock, albeit small, on the board right away and it fixes mana sometimes. Round 1, game 1 I had a double priest into magus of the moon on turn 1 (magus was FoW however). Give it a shot - this is another reason why there are 4 trinispheres in my main again.

Revoker was fantastic. It never shut down a vial all day long, but it stopped many tops/jace2.0.

I'll reiterate that I think that pit dragon and gathan raiders are great. It's also my opinion that hellbent definitely is a strong direction to take this deck. That's my opinion and I can't go into every single anecdote about how each are wonderful. I'm sure there are just as many stories about how covetous dragon or kagan were super cool in game xyz. Gathan Raiders and Pit Dragon do a lot of damage and kill players.

That's all I got for now, but feel free to ask any questions. I feel this deck could have been a serious contender in the top 8 (if I didn't split like they ended up doing) and know that I could have performed better by playing smarter against entomb/hulk that I'm not super familiar with and pile shuffling like mad to prevent manaflood in round 3.

I was waiting for it to be a good time for Dragon Stompy again and I am happy to play this in the current meta. Batterskull was troublesome for me, though. Perhaps some artifact hate in the board.

hyc8028

05-30-2011, 03:03 AM

Anyone consider running manic vandal on the side?

NecroYawgmoth

05-30-2011, 09:44 AM

Anyone consider running manic vandal on the side?

Tacosnape does, at least in the past, cuz we don't know his actual board =D -> IMO Shattering Spree is better.

Anyone else here has experience with Sword of War & Peace?

I can really see the Huge lifeswing/damage factor, but the protection colors are not as good as SoB&M, because removal gets usually Chalice1ed...

I am the brainwasher

05-30-2011, 10:11 AM

As far as my experience goes, with the format in general, Sword of War & Peace doesnt do the job you want it to do.
Against Aggro-Decks the sword looses quite some value because they are able to play out their hand rather fast which makes the sword somewhat unreasonable and hits the opponent in such a late point of the game that its abilities doesnt matter anymore. That is the reason why the other Swords are so great in the deck, they support the mid to late game very well and are able to produce general or virtual card advantage that SoW&P cant. On the other hand, against control the sword is most of the times just a win more when you are able to push trough their board and I see no reason to not run F&I or B&M or F&F here, which support the gameplan way better in each of the situations that I mentioned above. Besides that, pro white and pro red isnt as important as the pro from the other colors that help to fix the decks most common problems: Resolved Goyf/Knight or Merfolks in general.
I am not relying on the fact that the sword cant win some games and that it COULD matter at some points but these are damn rare in comparison to the other swords abilities.
Greetings!

Octopusman

05-30-2011, 08:30 PM

Tacosnape does, at least in the past, cuz we don't know his actual board =D -> IMO Shattering Spree is better.

Anyone else here has experience with Sword of War & Peace?

I can really see the Huge lifeswing/damage factor, but the protection colors are not as good as SoB&M, because removal gets usually Chalice1ed...

I just wrote about my experiences with Sword of War and Peace two posts above yours. I am at odds with the post above this one because, as I stated in my post, I am finding sword of war and peace to be fantastic in this deck and I am planning on running it over the other alternatives (and jitte) for the foreseeable future.

NecroYawgmoth

05-30-2011, 10:41 PM

I just wrote about my experiences with Sword of War and Peace two posts above yours. I am at odds with the post above this one because, as I stated in my post, I am finding sword of war and peace to be fantastic in this deck and I am planning on running it over the other alternatives (and jitte) for the foreseeable future.

My post was meant more like... Does anyone except Octupusman has also experiences with SoW&P ;)

Octopusman

05-31-2011, 05:34 PM

My post was meant more like... Does anyone except Octupusman has also experiences with SoW&P ;)

No offense taken.

I understand that testing, results, and personal experience/preference are going to be what ultimately influences a player to include various cards in their lists.

As I mentioned before, I believe that there are better options for virtually any other deck, but with so many lock pieces and this deck's desire to swing for the win along with our desire to keep our threats on the board, I am absolutely loving Sword of War and Peace. I disagree that the protections on the other swords are superior.

Swing with a Priest of Urabrask equipped with Sword of War and Peace on turn 2 under a trinisphere and then tell us how that makes you feel.

Hint: It feels like cheating.

GoboLord

05-31-2011, 06:00 PM

Not sure if that contributes anything to your discussion but last weekend I (ANT) played Necro (DS):
In game 3 I was taken out not per se by his lockpieces but by Phyrexian Revoker equipped with Sword of B&M swinging in on turn 2 and milling all of my winconditions in two attacks.
What I want to say is that 2nd-turn-equip-and-attack is awsome with every sword. I just find Sword of B&M more reliable for 2 reasons:
(1) it cheats you through more creatures (% of G/u creatures is higher in legacy than R/W)
(2) it drops potential bodies tha can either carry the Sword of bock 1 of you opponents creatures. This can save you much more lifes than you can gain from Sword of W&P and is more reliably ensuring dmg than SoW&P.

Tacosnape

05-31-2011, 06:08 PM

Swing with a Priest of Urabrask equipped with Sword of War and Peace on turn 2 under a trinisphere and then tell us how that makes you feel.

It would probably feel like winning with Illusions/Donate. Doing amazing things with terrible cards gives you the illusion that they're good and makes you a worse deckbuilder in the process.

NecroYawgmoth

05-31-2011, 06:28 PM

It would probably feel like winning with Illusions/Donate. Doing amazing things with terrible cards gives you the illusion that they're good and makes you a worse deckbuilder in the process.

LULZ

also @ the guy who invented this deck:

So you think New Phyrexia has no cards for DS? [Sword of W & P, P. Metamorph, Priest, Moltensteel]?

I haven't tested Sword, but I have tested all other cards, and I can say:

Metamorph is way to situational in DS to be any good.

Moltensteel costs too much life. Its just an better update of Lava Hounds.

Priest is only good in the Opening7 with Trini, or in the Opening7 as multiples... still a sucky topdeck.

Radiant

05-31-2011, 07:58 PM

Priest is only good in the Opening7 with Trini, or in the Opening7 as multiples... still a sucky topdeck.
Priest is better in the Hellbent-version, since it let's you stay hellbent & pump up RPD. Having to cast the stuff and then having no mana left to deal a really heavy blow sucks, and is what makes RPD way too fair.

I'll try out the Priest some more, to see if he finally makes the cut.

NecroYawgmoth

05-31-2011, 08:10 PM

of course it is better in the Hellbent version...

Gathan, Mox, Seething and now Priest let get you Hellbent very fast, and very constant. No doubt about it.

Problem is... I don't find space for Trinis in the Hellbent-Version, and Priest seems so good with them.

also: I can have Hellbent and a RPD / Gathans whatever on turn 3... from this point on, I completely rely on the topdeck, and will lose every game when my opp removes my 1-2 big threads. That's the reason why I dislike Hellbent DS. Random removal will cost you the game =(

tesla

05-31-2011, 08:21 PM

Well, I play Priest in a non-hellbent deck and I´m very satisfied with it. Made a lot of testing but no competition yet. Decklist looks like this:

8 sol lands
10 mountain

4 chrome mox
4 blood moon
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
4 stone rain

4 magus of the moon
4 lodestone golem
4 priest of urabrask
4 SSG
3 phyrexian revoker

2 sword of F and I
2 jitte

thefringthing

06-01-2011, 01:27 AM

Here's an idea for Koth Stompy:

14x Mountain
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox
2x Lotus Petal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Blood Moon
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Priest of Urabrask
4x Koth of the Hammer
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

Octopusman

06-01-2011, 04:15 AM

It would probably feel like winning with Illusions/Donate. Doing amazing things with terrible cards gives you the illusion that they're good and makes you a worse deckbuilder in the process.

Disappointed by how ignorant your remark is, taco. Generally, I appreciate your contributions to this site.

Feel free to criticize, but I did another round of heavy testing tonight and I'm still having great results (aka better results and more wins with how the deck is now versus previous incarnations/card choices).
For me, the proof is in the pudding for SoWP. I don't find that I need to push through blockers often. SoWP is allowing me to end the game quickly.
The life gain is not a consideration for me and might as well not even be part of the card's trigger. It still allows Magus of the Moon to swing for 10 easily and creatures to dodge what I believe to be the most important removal colors in the format (seeing some people also frustrated by being set back by having their threats removed).

I disagree that Priest is only good in the opening 7.
I fit in priest and trinisphere in my list because I moved the seething song package to the sideboard which is working out really well (hellbent list).

If you are feeling unsure about what direction to take the deck, try my list a few posts back.

Good discussion, though. Glad to see so much activity in this thread right now.

Radiant

06-01-2011, 04:51 AM

also: I can have Hellbent and a RPD / Gathans whatever on turn 3... from this point on, I completely rely on the topdeck, and will lose every game when my opp removes my 1-2 big threads. That's the reason why I dislike Hellbent DS. Random removal will cost you the game =(

Well, true, but your list plays the same number of unreliable threats (8) as mine. Except against mass removal, it is the total number of drawn threats that counts, not if you have 'em in hand or on the table. Given, there are some situations where it makes a difference though, but they should not occur that often.

My decklist from last tourney for comparison:

//DUDES [22]
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Priest of Urabrask
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon

//STUFF [20]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Body and Mind

//LANDS [18]
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

//SIDEBOARD
3 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Flametongue Kave
3 Phyrexian Metamorph

The Priest-into-Lock/Equip-Move was always good and it is a better topdeck than Seething Song ever was. Overall performance was bad though, but that was bad luck (no-lander, mull to 4 thrice, topdeck 5 mountain in a row twice, not drawing sb-cards - despite excessive shuffling :-|). Like you said, 1-2 removals on the big threats are bad. Playtesting will show if Priest fits better than another big (clunky) threat (i.e. Lord of Shatterskull Pass) or if it conflicts with Hellbent, which was no problem with my list - but there we are at Hellbent vs non-Hellbent-version again. ;)

vikram

06-01-2011, 02:34 PM

I want to mess around with an artifact heavy version of the deck pairing the Moon disruption plan with more efficient creatures.

What do you think of a list like this...

//DUDES [22]
4 Metalworker (Or Grim Monolith)
4 Porcelin Legionaire (Or Phyrexian Revoker)
4 Simian Spirit Guide (Or Seething Song)
4 Lodestone Golem (Or Phyrexian Metamorph)
3 Covetous Dragon (Or Wurmcoil Engine)
3 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon

//STUFF [20]
3 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

//LANDS [19]
1 Crystal Vein
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

Do you have any suggestions?

Are there any must play artifacts that I am missing. What would your take on a list like this be?

ForlornEgoist

06-01-2011, 03:22 PM

Decklist
Have you considered Etched Champion? He's essentially guranteed to have pro-colors in your build as well as enable you to abuse the equipments.

As far as Metalworker goes, I'm not sure he's the right fit for the deck. Albeit he can provide some great early-game acceleration which is definitely more viable for this build over Song, however although this isn't a Hellbent build your game plan still remains to continously drop screw/threats so unless you yourself are mana screwed your plan isn't to keep artifacts in your hand so as to ramp mana. True, keeping just 1 Artifact can help counterract 1-2 Lodestones but this to me doesn't justify the ramping provided by Metalworker. Albeit I haven't tested Metalworker and and merely speculating but I don't think he's right for the deck.

1 Crystal Vein: Random, much?

I'm not familiar with your meta, but I would say MD Revoker > Legionnaire in most instances. You're not running FTK/Slogger for removal so you might want to have some answer to annoyances.

@SoFaI: Actually quite decent as it nets you a card which can be then powered out with Metalworker. However I would suggest replacing this with SoBaM if you intend to remove the Metalworkers like I suggested. Pro-green is the most relevant for us and getting an extra creature is rarily a bad thing.

Assuming you don't want to drastically change the playstyle of your deck here are my suggestions:

-1 Metalworker, -1 Crystal Vein, -4 Phyrexian Revoker (SB)
+2 Grim Monolith +4 Etched Champion

Like I said I haven't playtested Metalworker so I'm not sure how effective he's been but I also don't see him as a creature you want to draw duplicates of in the average game. 3 seems like a better number as it also frees up a slot for Grim Monolith which may be somewhat viable for the deck. As far as Phyrexian Revoker is concerned I think he certainly can be MD depending on the meta but against certain decks Revoker can be dead or the few cards you can name aren't that necessary for the deck. I think its perfectly justifiable to keep him in SB and I've found that to be working for me at least thus far.