[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Gui]

When was the last time this Top 8'd?

I don't know if this really matter, specially since you are in a forum dedicated to deckbuilding. Actually, the fact that it didn't top8 latelly should be a challenge to serious people here.

I do believe there are a thousand of good decks able to put results in the hands of good players that get underplayed, exactly because of this copy-paste theory in which everyone copy the decks that are currently putting more results.

FWIW, it was going to top8 (first @ the swiss IIRC) a tourney here a month ago (~100 players), just didn't because of a communication fail between the players involved and the judge, that DQed the DS player. (I believe the opposing player was an @ss and called the judge / explained the sutuation with ill intent).

[NecroYawgmoth]

Updated the OP a bit... :smile:

Nothing more to say, as there are no other discussions atm :tongue:

[Gui]

So, no tests on Shivan Wumpus @ non-hellbent yet?

[Masamune]

Reporting... 4th over 25 players I guess...

List:
10x Mountains
8x Sol Lands
4x Moxen
4x SSG
8x Moon effects
3x Trinisphere
4x CoTV
4x Priest of Urabrask
2x LoSP
4x RPD
4x Raiders
2x SoBM
1x Jitte
2x FTK

SB:
4x Bombs
4x Kinesis
4x Revokers
2x Anarchy
1x FTK

I'm lazy...so let's report just a little (lol)

R1. Snake Tokens?
G1.T1 Chalice. opp Screw and I hit with my Magus every turn. A Raider appears after.gg.
G2. The same stuffs played in previous game... easy match (this guy was playing just for fun)

1-0

R2. Dredge
G1.He start with tribe. I Magus T1. He did dredge 3 with Darkblast putting into grave 3 Breaktrough (!!!). Even with my creatures, RPD and Raiders, isn't enough to face Ichorids. I scoop.
G2. CoTV T1 and Magus T2. T3 RPD with hellbent. No matter how important was all discard and dredge cards. I did it.
G3. T1 Tribe. I Trinisphere. My opp discarted entire hand except cephalid coliseum making a full grave faster. 2x bridges, 3x Ichorids 2x Narcomoebas and Tribe. T3 too many creatures and Zombie tokens I scoop...

1-1

R3. Mono G Rampage(?)
G1. Too many basics. I scoop this game when my opp played Rampage Baloths making tokens with Harrow. gg.
G2. + Revokers and +Kinesis. No moon effects. T1. Chalice1. All Fogs and Llnowar Elves was disabled. I started to hit it with my U/G blade making tokens and milling his deck.
G3. T1 forest. Llanowar. I T1 Revoker>llanowar. Mana screw for my opp at moment lol. Revoker was amazing. RPD, FTK... gg :)

2-1

R4. Team America
G1.I didn't know what deck was there... so... I just play Trinisphere and a raiders. My opp let me play all my stuffs like Chalices and LoSP and he sac a Deed making me cry... He eat me alive further with Jace and Team America creatures: Stalker and Goyf. gg
G2.Revoker T1> Pernicious. CoTV@1. He scoops flooded I guess and I hit it with hellbent very fast with Priests.
G3. The epic game ever. He: T1 fetch. I T1> Priest, Sword. FoW. Opp: T2 Goyf. I T2 RPD...
There was a moment my opp played Pernicious holding avaiable mana to sac. I forced him to sac with my Revoker (!). He sac to clean all stuffs and I said: "Jace, Mind Sculptor" ;) when Revoker was resolved. I did playing another RPD and another Priest. Hard to win because he was a good player. Sweet ^^

3-1

R5. Elves
I don't remember actually, but CoTV was destroyed by Viridian Zealot and Trinisphere didn't hold a couple turns because my opp killed me with priest of titania plus elvish archdruid. I did g2 with Revoker naming Heritage. Trinisphere...
G3. Archdruid screw me up even with Trinisphere in table... too many elves hitting me every turn... :(

3-2

8th
top eight ^^

Top 8
Game 1 Bye. The dredge man (round 2) had National vacancy already. No game tough.

Top 4 R/W Sneak Attack
Perfect bad match. My blood Moons doesn't work. My Swords just pro blue and green... I scoop even playing pos-board with Revokers. He played Enlightened Tutor seraching Oblivion Ring and he screw me playing Sneak + 15/15 Eldrazi :s

Dragon Stompy is awesome but the meta was very hard to handle...
2x Dredges, 2x Sneak Attacks, 2x Affinities... :rolleyes:
I won three booster packs.
C yaa people...

[NecroYawgmoth]

Wow, Masamune, you didn't play with the whole screw-package =P What's going on?

Also, was Priest of Urabrask worth it?

[HokusSchmokus]

Reporting... 4th over 25 players I guess...

List:
10x Mountains
8x Sol Lands
4x Moxen
4x SSG
8x Moon effects
3x Trinisphere
4x CoTV
4x Priest of Urabrask
2x LoSP
4x RPD
4x Raiders
2x SoBM
1x Jitte
2x FTK

SB:
4x Bombs
4x Kinesis
4x Revokers
2x Anarchy
1x FTK

I'm lazy...so let's report just a little (lol)

R1. Snake Tokens?
G1.T1 Chalice. opp Screw and I hit with my Magus every turn. A Raider appears after.gg.
G2. The same stuffs played in previous game... easy match (this guy was playing just for fun)

1-0

R2. Dredge
G1.He start with tribe. I Magus T1. He did dredge 3 with Darkblast putting into grave 3 Breaktrough (!!!). Even with my creatures, RPD and Raiders, isn't enough to face Ichorids. I scoop.
G2. CoTV T1 and Magus T2. T3 RPD with hellbent. No matter how important was all discard and dredge cards. I did it.
G3. T1 Tribe. I Trinisphere. My opp discarted entire hand except cephalid coliseum making a full grave faster. 2x bridges, 3x Ichorids 2x Narcomoebas and Tribe. T3 too many creatures and Zombie tokens I scoop...

1-1

R3. Mono G Rampage(?)
G1. Too many basics. I scoop this game when my opp played Rampage Baloths making tokens with Harrow. gg.
G2. + Revokers and +Kinesis. No moon effects. T1. Chalice1. All Fogs and Llnowar Elves was disabled. I started to hit it with my U/G blade making tokens and milling his deck.
G3. T1 forest. Llanowar. I T1 Revoker>llanowar. Mana screw for my opp at moment lol. Revoker was amazing. RPD, FTK... gg :)

2-1

R4. Team America
G1.I didn't know what deck was there... so... I just play Trinisphere and a raiders. My opp let me play all my stuffs like Chalices and LoSP and he sac a Deed making me cry... He eat me alive further with Jace and Team America creatures: Stalker and Goyf. gg
G2.Revoker T1> Pernicious. CoTV@1. He scoops flooded I guess and I hit it with hellbent very fast with Priests.
G3. The epic game ever. He: T1 fetch. I T1> Priest, Sword. FoW. Opp: T2 Goyf. I T2 RPD...
There was a moment my opp played Pernicious holding avaiable mana to sac. I forced him to sac with my Revoker (!). He sac to clean all stuffs and I said: "Jace, Mind Sculptor" ;) when Revoker was resolved. I did playing another RPD and another Priest. Hard to win because he was a good player. Sweet ^^

3-1

R5. Elves
I don't remember actually, but CoTV was destroyed by Viridian Zealot and Trinisphere didn't hold a couple turns because my opp killed me with priest of titania plus elvish archdruid. I did g2 with Revoker naming Heritage. Trinisphere...
G3. Archdruid screw me up even with Trinisphere in table... too many elves hitting me every turn... :(

3-2

8th
top eight ^^

Top 8
Game 1 Bye. The dredge man (round 2) had National vacancy already. No game tough.

Top 4 R/W Sneak Attack
Perfect bad match. My blood Moons doesn't work. My Swords just pro blue and green... I scoop even playing pos-board with Revokers. He played Enlightened Tutor seraching Oblivion Ring and he screw me playing Sneak + 15/15 Eldrazi :s

Dragon Stompy is awesome but the meta was very hard to handle...
2x Dredges, 2x Sneak Attacks, 2x Affinities... :rolleyes:
I won three booster packs.
C yaa people...

I don't understand what happened R2 G1 Oo

[Masamune]

Prist is good in late game rather Songs... With no Songs, no Sloggers. And running more creatures (four of then) I realize that just any equip card is nice. So, testing in my mind how it works with current meta, my strategies in fact was taking out something that won't make any difference.
I realize that the vacancy wasn't mine because that bad MU.

[Masamune]

I don't understand what happened R2 G1 Oo
My opp plays Tireless Tribe with City of brass. He discarting Darkblast in EOT make dredge showing 3 Breaktrough. I was playing creatures but he continues to dredge...

[ForlornEgoist]

I guess we're just confused because with a Moon effect on the field even with Nomad he's reduced to dredging only on his draw step as Moon effects shut off his entire mana base (assuming he's LED-less). So we're just confused as to how you lost when you clearly have superior creatures and he's stuck on 1 Dredge/turn.

You're report is light so I'm sure he might have gotten some insane dredges such as Bridges in the 'yard asap followed by Ichorids but it seems to me that even if he resolves multiple Ichorids you should be able to handle it. Obviously you were the one there not me, but that's why we're a tad confused.

Forlorn Egoist

[Masamune]

Ichorids can attack every turn making tokens. And Narcomoebas has fly. First game I didn't had Trinisphere and he did put into play a 8/8 Golgari Grave Troll. No, DS do not had strongest creatures better in options when I realize that game was lost. Test against then and you will notice how Dredge can crush DS. BTW he was a good player

[ForlornEgoist]

So, no tests on Shivan Wumpus @ non-hellbent yet?

The issue I've had with Wumpus is that against decks that already have a superior board position they can afford to sac the 1 land to timewalk you a draw. Decks such as Stax/Loam-based can continously recur lands to lock you out of drawing any new cards and Wumpus unfortunately lacks any notable abilities beyond trample and a big body. That having been said, if you can get him onto the field then he becomes a huge asset, particularly when equipped.

He's not a horrible creature by any means, but he's definitely one of those creatures that experiences greater and greater diminishing returns as the game progresses. You never want to see him later as the opponent will of drawn more than enough lands to delay your draws. Most of the time setting you back 1-3 draws is more than enough for an opponent to recover to the point where they can steal the game from you.

I really wouldn't run him as I'd rather not run threats which abuse our lack of cantrips (one of if not the greatest weakness of the deck).

Forlorn Egoist

[mercs]

congrats masumune! t8 on 3-2 is sweet. I recently picked the game back up again after a long break. My results weren't as good though. it was a 60 man mox tourney that i went 3-2-1 in (with a 2-0-1 split in the win a box side event)

R1: Affinity
jitte/artifact hate gets there
1-0

R2: Affinity!
Artifact hate + pyrokinesis + moon gets there
2-0

R3: belcher
G1- 14 gobs, G2 - i chalice at one (should've done 0 but rusty!). he does t1 belcher.
2-1

R4: SFM Landstill
very back and forth. batterskull is more annoying than i expected. end up drawing!?!
2-1-1

R5: Junk/Rock w/ gsz
never knew how to beat this deck. rapes all the way.
2-2-1

R6: Didn't matter so we played casually. he ran SPRING TIDE
G1 - echoing truth on chalice decks me. G2 and 3 - chalice buys me time to kill.
G4 was played for fun where he decks me pretty bad.

WIN - A - BOX side event
(8 ppl, $15, first gets a box)

R1: affinity!
artifact hate + moons

R2: reanimator!
G1- die by iona, G2- moons lock out, G3- he mulls and gets mooned just enough!

R3 (final): TES
i felt very favored, but at the same time i wanted to catch a movie with the misses. i offered a draw, and he was nice to split.

left with 18 boosters (outside of karn, mental missteps, and some hex it was mostly junk lol. Fun tho!) On the day i went 5-2-2? Not too great. I gotta work on the sfm package and junk mu more.

[NecroYawgmoth]

mind to post list? =P

[mercs]

Really jank list. I'm usually a very big advocate of seething song and hellbent list, but looking at the meta on the source b4 the tourney, i thought i'd try a no song list.

10 mountain 4 city, 4 tomb,
8 moons
3 rakdos
4 raiders
4 ssg
3 revoker
3 ftk
3 slogger
4 mox
4 cotv
2 pyrokinesis
2 jitte
2 trini

sb:
1 pyrokinesis
2 volcanic fallout
2 shattering spree
1 null rod
1 pulverize (wanted null rod, but couldn't get it or shattering spree. still won me a game tho)
2 combust
1 tormod's crypt
2 anarchy
1 fortune thief (on the fence)
2 phrexian metamorph (beast!)

This semi-dumb list needs some explaining i guess. overall, it was an attrition hungry meta, so that affected what i chose.

-MD pyrokinesis : i wanted more ways to remove slogger from my hand/ removal in general. worked well
-FTK : the kavu's were a lot better than i expected. took out batterskull, sfm, and other stuff and did a lot of 2 for 1's.
-2 trini: i think trini is important, but for almost all my matches, it wouldn't factor in. It would be great against belcher, but neither game i could play it first turn, and that's how i died both times.
-revoker: generally he's always great, almost always useful.

-metamorph: i'm a lot less afraid of dredge, jitte, reanimator, or s&t.
-fortune thief: he's so good, yet i don't think i wanna play him nemore. A lot of dredge lists i saw use elesh norn now, so this guy only hits progenitus and elves. If elves pick up beast within, that's no longer the case.
-Lack of gy hate: it simply wasn't a huge factor. Most of my dredge wins always came w/o it, and it didn't help as much against the KotR, loam decks in testing. i'll prob run 2-4 at most next time.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Yeah, I know, Dragon Stompy is very very tight on space, but Commander brings us this goodie:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119720&stc=1&d=1307699616

What do you guys think about it? Potential??? Could solve our biggest problems [or at least make them a smaller problem =P]

[Yuri8]

Like this card, instant answer to anything, effectivity is changing from deck to deck, but chance of flipping land of spell is still very big. Time to find space in sideboard, or do you think its MD card?

[Masamune]

What's the name of that card? Here doesn't show up the image

[blinka]

Stranglehold (Commander) could potentially be another screw piece (probably in the sideboard) against fetch/tutor heavy decks.

[Sims]

What's the name of that card? Here doesn't show up the image

Chaos Warp- 2R
Instant
The owner of target permanent shuffles it into his or her library, then reveals the top card. If that card is a permanent, he or she puts it onto the battlefield.

[mercs]

Chaos warp looks good! Does anyone also like Vow of Lightning?

Vow of Lightning

Enchantment – Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +2/+2, has first strike, and can’t attack you or a planeswalker you control.

[Clark Kant]

If we play all flyers for our win conditions, (Moltensteel, Covetous Dragon), then Vow of Lightning is the perfect answer to opposing creatures and a flexible one at that. Likewise, if we play Shivan Wumpus, then Chaos Warp could work with that.

This is actually my current and all time favorite list.

This build needs very little red mana, so I've cut a mountain and am testing a couple of Crystal Vein to see how it fares. It's actually been fairly useful playing with tons of land.

5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein

4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Red Creature Flex Slot (Flametoungue Kavu, Shivan Wumpus, Rosheen Meanderer etc.)
3 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Covetous Dragon

The deck plays 22 artifacts to support Covetous Dragon, and it plays 23 cards that it can pitch to Chrome Mox. It currently plays 17 sources of red mana (13 permanent sources of red mana), which seems to be enough given that none of the decks creatures need double red, however, you can easily cut a Crystal Vein to up the Mountain count if you find it neccessary.

It's a huge relief not to have to support any cards that require double red mana to cast. And it's especially relieving to not have to build the deck around hellbent, or suffering card disadvantage at the hand of Gathan Raiders.

It's as consistent a list of Dragon Stompy as any I've ever used so I think it's well worth your time to try out. As you can see, the list is still being tweaked so if you can help with that, that would be great.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I dislike the Vow... why we need this? Lightning Talons exist, and we don't play it either... I even grants more power... which is better with First Strike. I also don't like the "pseudo" can't attack move, when you gave them a stronger blocker for that.

However, I like Clarks list... Flex Slots should be Revokers IMO... also I'd cut maybe 1 Moltensteel +1 whatever card to make room for 2 Slogger. YES, they look good with Song, and without Hellbent =P

[Charlatan]

I've been watching scg legacy tournament every weekend, ans I'm surprised that I don't see any Dragon Stompy blowing all this freaking non-basic land decks.

Why doesn't this happen? I see the field as a great oppurtunity for the DS' rising.

Are people waiting for a guy with balls to take a good place?

Or the deck still some good tweaks?

[Clark Kant]

There's no question about it. Dragon Stompy has one of if not the most potent disruption package of any deck in the format.

However, it has an achelle's heel when it comes to it's threats, due to their inconsistency mainly.

Between multiple cards that require double RR to play, multiple creature that require hellbent to be good, having to discard multiple cards to Chrome Mox, and Gathan Raiders, and similar factors, the deck is inconsistent as hell.

The build I posted above was designed specifically to address these weaknesses. And it seems to do that quite well.

[NecroYawgmoth]

It's strange that I am asking this, but...

What was the reason to choose Covetous over Slogger??? the evasion? or the 4R mana cost? Or something else?

[ThoSha]

The jitte seems subpar in this list tough, because of the lack of threat density(only 16 critters). Maybe you could fill this slot up with FTKs or Chaos Warp if you like that combo with Shivan Wumpus.

[Clark Kant]

Shivan Wumpus has been mediocre. Trying a 2/2 split between Lord of Shatterskull and Arc Slogger in the flexslot. Covetous Dragon has been awesome, the manacost, evasion and three turn clock are all perfect. Moltensteel has been fantastic usually but can occasionally make you too suicidal with a first turn Tomb.

[Tacosnape]

Incosistency isn't what's keeping Dragon Stompy out of contention lately. Being full of bad cards is what's keeping it out of contention. All the guys the deck once proudly ran have gradually gotten slower and weaker as time's gone on.

The better guys right now, like it or not, are colorless. Wurmcoil Engine is singlehandedly better than every single creature in Dragon Stompy except possibly Magus of the Moon. Steel Hellkite's way better than Rakdos Pit Dragon. Etc.

[ThoSha]

Incosistency isn't what's keeping Dragon Stompy out of contention lately. Being full of bad cards is what's keeping it out of contention. All the guys the deck once proudly ran have gradually gotten slower and weaker as time's gone on.

The better guys right now, like it or not, are colorless. Wurmcoil Engine is singlehandedly better than every single creature in Dragon Stompy except possibly Magus of the Moon. Steel Hellkite's way better than Rakdos Pit Dragon. Etc.
So would you run a moon mud over regular DS then?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Incosistency isn't what's keeping Dragon Stompy out of contention lately. Being full of bad cards is what's keeping it out of contention. All the guys the deck once proudly ran have gradually gotten slower and weaker as time's gone on.


True story... All our Screw-Creatures are kinda small... and if we try to play more Equipment to fix this, we end up being outtempoed. We need to wait for Baneslayer Dragons :D

Moon MUD seems kinda cool, but IF this is the way to go, why no MUD lists have tested Moons, or we have never seen a Moon-MUD list somehwere? IMO the big thing is that Moon slows our Sol-Lands which could be bad in a MUD-shell.



The better guys right now, like it or not, are colorless. Wurmcoil Engine is singlehandedly better than every single creature in Dragon Stompy except possibly Magus of the Moon. Steel Hellkite's way better than Rakdos Pit Dragon. Etc.

no love for Awesome Revoker, here? :(

[Tacosnape]

So would you run a moon mud over regular DS then?

Yes. And I'd run quad Goblin Welder split somehow between main and board. He might be Misstep fodder and not play nice with Chalice, but if he sticks, he eats counters and Hymns for breakfast.


no love for Awesome Revoker, here? :(

Revoker doesn't really count towards my point, given that any deck packing an Ancient Tomb is probably going to give him a look. That said, he doesn't imprint on a Chrome Mox, and he is an artifact guy to work with Metalworker, Mox Opal, etc. So yeah. I'd probably say there's yet another reason to go artifact.

In fact, there's pretty much only one downside to going MUD, period, which is that now Moon MUD can be hated out. Dragon Stompy can't.

Then again, it really doesn't need to be.

[Masamune]

I've been watching scg legacy tournament every weekend, ans I'm surprised that I don't see any Dragon Stompy blowing all this freaking non-basic land decks.

Why doesn't this happen? I see the field as a great oppurtunity for the DS' rising.

Are people waiting for a guy with balls to take a good place?

Or the deck still some good tweaks?

Too many fearful people to play with it LOL

[ForlornEgoist]

Too many fearful people to play with it LOL

Just as well. I would most likely cease to play this deck once it became too conformist. :tongue:

Has anyone had any success with Batterskull? I've been an adamant support for SoBaM but a person in my meta, after having seen me have so much fun with DS, decided to purchase and assemble his own DS (another DS into the fold). Albeit his build is kinda akward (3 RAkroma, 4 Koth, 3 Mountain Yeti o.O) but when I was playtesting his build I found the Batterskull to be on par with SoBaM. I'm considering testing it in my build but I've had limited testing. An issue I ran into with his was build (well, firstly those bloody Koths which an observing control player insisted DS needs it if it wants to have a chance in Legacy LOL) was that Seething Song seemed like it became much more necessary for the deck. Albeit I'm running 3 Slogger MD currently but I still don't rely heavily on Song to play threats whereas sometimes Batterskull would eat up entire turns just switching equips. Of course, When I'm sitting on a 10/10 Vigilance/Lifelink Shatterskull I guess thats fine. :laugh:

I also had some rather significant playtesting with Mountain Yeti. Albeit you would need to run him in a deck feature 4-5 equipment to maximize his effectiveness but most builds are already switching to a higher equipment count and pro-white not only negates StP/PtE but also lets us compete against KotR which given the consistent popularity of decks like Bant/Rock is always relevant. I'm actually considering running 2-3 in my build (at least for playtesting).

Forlorn Egoist

[Clark Kant]

I updated my list above (post 521) with my current build. The primary change I made was replacing the Jitte with Phyrexian Revokers.

I don't have much else to add other than that the deck has been performing very well, and a lot more consistently than any variation of Dragon Stompy I've used before.

The deck is still geared towards matchups that play lots of duals and fetches, but it absolutely decimates those decks, and actually does fairly well against monocolored decks once you board out the Moon effects for Flametoungue Kavus and other red cards.

Has anyone tried Boiling Seas against Merfolk and other blue centric decks? It's one of the cards I'm trying in the board against that matchup.

Lastly, how often do you think Chaos Warp will backfire on us in a significant way? If it's less than 10% then I think the deck could definately benefit from an instant speed Vindicate effect.

[Zoomer3989]

I've been playing around with this list:

Creatures (22):
Rakdos Pit Dragon x4
Gathan Raiders x4
Magus of the Moon x4
Simian Spirit Guide x4
Phyrexian Revoker x4
Lodestone Golem x2

Spells (20):
Chrome Mox x4
Blood Moon x4
Chalice of the Void x4
Trinisphere x4
Umezawa's Jitte x2
Sword of Body and Mind x2

Land (18):
Mountain x10
Ancient Tomb x4
City of Traitors x4

For the side, I'm thinking of Pyrokinesis, and REBs for sure, but I'm not sure of what else. I have heard of Volcanic Fallout against things like Fish, and possibly Null Rod.

[sdematt]

Don't hate me all at once, but what about Koth? I know he's not the bombiest card in the world, but not dying to Deed is pretty cool stuff. Essentially hasty Mountains put a kink in Landstills plans (well, anything Haste for that matter). He's also a finisher: you can actually ping Landstill to death if need be.

Also, another bomb: Batterskull. As a 1-of, it seems alright in this deck.

Any thoughts?

-Matt

[Zoomer3989]

Don't hate me all at once, but what about Koth? I know he's not the bombiest card in the world, but not dying to Deed is pretty cool stuff. Essentially hasty Mountains put a kink in Landstills plans (well, anything Haste for that matter). He's also a finisher: you can actually ping Landstill to death if need be.

Also, another bomb: Batterskull. As a 1-of, it seems alright in this deck.

Any thoughts?

-Matt

I like the idea of Batterskull, but not being able to cheat it in does hurt and 5 CMC is actually a lot. I have considered trying Koth, as the Lodestones and Revokers have made having Red sources harder for Chrome Mox, however, Koth is very susceptible to creatures and D-Stompy has issues with them as well. I like Lodestone for additional taxing abilities, but when I ran 4 and lacked SOBAM it conflicted a bit with other cards. I may try Koth as a 2-of over Lodestone.

SOBAM is also amazing in the minimal testing I've had with it, but Merfolk is a poor matchup for this deck IMO, and it does solve it well.

[ForlornEgoist]

Don't hate me all at once, but what about Koth? I know he's not the bombiest card in the world, but not dying to Deed is pretty cool stuff. Essentially hasty Mountains put a kink in Landstills plans (well, anything Haste for that matter). He's also a finisher: you can actually ping Landstill to death if need be.

Also, another bomb: Batterskull. As a 1-of, it seems alright in this deck.

Any thoughts?

-Matt

Koth isn't a horrible card but IMO he is definitely more of a meta card. In metas featuring a variety of midrange-control decks such as Rock/Landstill/Countertop etc. Koth is an excellent card to use. However if your meta is similar to mine where you see much in the way of aggro (esp. Zoo and tribal) he can become a liability as he himself can't bring you into a par board position nor is he adequately able to deal with creatures aside from the his Emblem which is essentially an auto-win against creature-based strategies. At the very least I've evolved beyond my "Koth does nothing for the deck," mentality but he is definitely a card which I think A) should be maxed out at 3 and B) used as a meta card.

As for Batterskull yes 5cc is a hefty sum to pay but the buffs provided by it can easily justify a replacement in the Slogger slot. Slogger to most people (including myself) is way to remove creatures while still having an attacker. Batterskull fulfills the same role only it has the added bonuses of recovering life (which is especially relevant now that the average build is running 2-3 Moltensteel) as well as still permissing a combat step without requiring us to leave open mana for Shocking.

Currently I'm playtesting 2 Batterskull for 2 Slogger in my list (replacing the last Slogger with either 1 RAkroma or the 4th Moon/3sphere).

Forlorn Egoist

[Clark Kant]

Don't hate me all at once, but what about Koth? I know he's not the bombiest card in the world, but not dying to Deed is pretty cool stuff. Essentially hasty Mountains put a kink in Landstills plans (well, anything Haste for that matter). He's also a finisher: you can actually ping Landstill to death if need be.

Koth seems like a great option to fill my Red Flex Slot in Post 521. I'll try him out. You can even make use of his second ability in order to pump up Moltensteel.

[Masamune]

ForlornEgoist please share with us your results with Batterskull :)
I realize that artifact is nice but a little slow

[Zoomer3989]

Has anyone proxied up Chaos Warp and tried in, either mained or sided? Might be useful in the board as a generic answer card.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Has anyone tried Boiling Seas against Merfolk and other blue centric decks? It's one of the cards I'm trying in the board against that matchup.


Boil is better than Boiling Sea. Also, If you only want U-Hate against Merfolk, what about An-Zerrin Ruins and Spinal Villain?

I like your list, like I said, but I think, I would only play 2 Kothes in the flexslots, with a random Batterskull.

still... testings will show =), and thank you for bringing up a constant DS list ^^

[Zoomer3989]

Has anyone tried Koth in the flex slots? I'm thinking about it over the Lodestone Golem x2 in my build.

And Revoker has been quite useful in testing. I've also tried SOWAP in the sideboard, which is something we need to work on as well.

[Clark Kant]

Still waiting on my Koth to arrive so I can test it. I will try out Choas Orb too when the card gets printed.

For now, I have to say, Firespout from the board has been absolutely fantastic, an MVP against so many matchups. It's particularly potent in my more consistent version of Dragon Stompy on the previous page, since all the actual threats I play fly, and the only non flyer is Magus of the Moon (which gets sided out against some of the matchups that Firespout excels against, and wins the game by itself already if it sticks against the rest).

[2Rach]

Yeah, have been running 3-4 in my 75 for a while. (I've been trying a more controllish version with removal maindeck) They're great against all the creatures in the format now. I think the SB is harder to put together than the main.


Edit:
I can't decide on finishers beside 4 Moltensteels, my deck has 1 of Arc-slogger, Covetous, RPD, and Batterskull to test them out. I don't run Songs

I had Koth for a while, but he isn't good enough with the creatures in the format. Possible sb card against control though.

[Clark Kant]

I found Songs to work amazingly well in a build with 3-4 Moltensteel, and 3-4 Covetous Dragon. That's even more true, if you also run an Arc Slogger or Batterskull alongside them. At worst, Songs pump Moltensteel.

Given how amazing Firespout is, and how the more consistent version of the deck does away with both Rakdos Pit Dragon and Gathan Raiders in favor of flying beasts, maybe Firespout should be maindeck.

I'm heavily favoring playing a list like this...


//Lands
5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein

//Mana Acceleration
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

//Bombs that destroy opposing decks
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Firespout

//Bombs that end the game asap
3 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Covetous Dragon
2 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Batterskull

One major goal I had when designing this deck was to absolutely maximize the ability to cast a turn one Moon or Trinisphere (or Chalice) because there has been a surge in the number of decks with mana bases and combo decks that pretty much fold to a turn one blood moon or a turn one trinisphere. Crystal Vein help with this task.

It's a heck of a lot more controllish, and consistent. And every single non-mana card the deck plays is a powerful bomb that can singlehandedly win the game by itself.

Or do you think there are too many matchups where Firespout is a dead card. The only decks I can think of that can survive a Moon effect, and that wouldn't get ripped to shreds by a Firespout are Burn and Storm combo. Trinisphere and Chalice help immensly against both.

[Zoomer3989]

In this deck, with no Green sources, isn't Slagstorm a significantly better card, as it's relevant to both flyers/nonflyers, and cutting the RPDs means none of your flyers die to it? Plus it can be a finisher itself.

I'm had a similar thought on Koth, as it loses to other creatures, but it's also much better when ramped out on Turn 2 because you can apply immediately pressure better then something like Lodestone or 5-drops. Plus Moltensteel can't be dropped with Chrome Mox. I honestly think RPD still needs to be in the deck because it's cheaper to play and abuses equips more, and Gathan Raiders is pretty good for its CMC.

[Koby]

The ability deal 3 damage off a single :r: mana is why Firespout is more important than Slagstorm.

[Clark Kant]

In this deck, with no Green sources, isn't Slagstorm a significantly better card, as it's relevant to both flyers/nonflyers, and cutting the RPDs means none of your flyers die to it? Plus it can be a finisher itself.

A manacost of 1RR is too difficult to support consistently. A 2R manacost is infinately superior.


I honestly think RPD still needs to be in the deck because it's cheaper to play and abuses equips more

RPD is hard to cost due to the RR mana requirement, and hard to make flying for the same reason.

Also, with a butt of 3, it can be killed by a Lightning Bolt, or a Serendib Efreet, and is a crappy blocker.

And lastly, it's not very good without hellbent. Sure, if you are certain you will have hellbent every time you cast him, he would be worth it, but lots of games have you holding an uncastable five drop for a turn or two atleast.

Post board, he can fairly bad with Firespout.



Gathan Raiders is pretty good for its CMC.

No it really is not. You are spending 3 mana, AND discarding a card from your hand, for a vanilla 3/3 that is conditionally a vanilla 5/5. Again, if you are certain you will have hellbent every time you cast him, he would be worth it, but even then, the fact that he's card disadvantage is relevant especially in a deck that has no draw engine to speak off, and that he can many times just be a 3/3 is pretty bad. Not to mention that he has no evasion, or trample or vigilance, or any other combat abilities and can simply be chumped by 1/1 elves all day long.


Also post board, he can fairly bad with Firespout.

[Zoomer3989]

I highly disagree on the CMC issue, when have you ever actually had issues with RR? The entire deck is built around Blood Moon effects and every ramp piece only makes R mana.

I understand the points on RPD and Gathan, but at least you'll be able to play them in time to matter. Playing Moltensteel means paying 4 life to cast, then significantly more afterward to boost to actually make kills in time. Plus Moltensteel in the main means you have significantly less R sources for Chrome Mox, which is important if the deck is supposed to be able to use them.

I also don't understand the hate towards Hellbent. The deck plays so naturally towards achieving it that I have never had a game without it, and it essentially makes RPD a turn 1 or 2 clock. When you add cards like Seething Song and stuff with CMC-5, you have the same thing except you need all of the cards to work together, or you draw poorly. The Hellbent creatures are much better individually, though I see the appeal of Moltensteel if you cut Phyrexian Revokers and such.

[ForlornEgoist]

I'm sure we all understand how Hellbent plays out. Yes, getting Hellbent can be easy for the deck, but its much easier for us to run into one of dozens of instances where we screw ourselves out drawing nothing but sol lands, dropping a Moon and being stuck on 3 lands with a bunch of 4/5cc etc.). Gathan can't deal with 'Goyf/KotR/any other creature with sizeable power. RPD is only good with Hellbent. It dies to burn and requires heavy mana investment if you want to make him any good. Hellbent also forces you to constantly either cast cards, drop lands, or RFG SSG/Imprint on Mox to empty your hand which isn't always what you want to do. Sometimes its better to keep some mana accel. (Song/SSG/Land) in your hand or keep a Slogger for later rather than just throw them away to provide a +2/+2 buff or Double Strike on a creature already requiring a hefty investment of resources.

Ultimately Hellbent forces you to go all-in which can cost us many games. RPD requires you to spend every resource to keep him competing with other threats so rather than dropping several threats at once you're attempting to do what Junk does and use vast amounts of disruption while falling on the back of powerful creatures, the difference being their creatures are those without extra investment needed to make them good.

Yea, Moltensteel Dragon typically requires a 4 life investment, but he sits on a 4/4 body so he's above burn, he has static evasion (flying) and consider how many times you've let an opponent connect direct damage because you didn't want to block and lose a RPD. I see little difference between no-blocks to save a RPD and paying 4 life to cast Moltensteel. But I do see a difference between a creature than can be cast off 2 Sol lands and requires no extra investment and a creature who much more readily dies, requires 2RR which contrary to 4 Mox/4 Song/Moon effects CAN be difficult to cast. Thus I think its reasonable to assume 2-3 Moltensteel as an adequate replacement for RPD.

As for Gathan raiders, Lord of Shatterskull Pass fills the slot nicely. 3R to cast with an extra 1R to gurantee a creature that will always be bigger than 'Goyf unless by some miracle 2 of either planeswalker/artifact/enchantment/tribal get into the 'yard or they're sitting on multiple Exalted triggers. His Level 6, although almost never actually obtained, can randomly blow out creature decks once achieved.

As for the 1RR vs. 2R scenario, yeah, I think majority of us can concede the deck most of the time can eventually achieve 1RR without issue. What those of us in favor of 2R are arguing is that 2R is more consistent for us to cast based on the 8 Sol lands. Sometimes imprinting on Mox isn't what we want to do. Sometimes its more relevant to save Song for Batterskull/Slogger/Kazuul/Moltensteel/etc. Sometimes we don't have SSG, or dropping a Moon effect can screw us out of being able to drop threats. Heck, sometimes we even get stuck on a bunch of sol lands with 1 mountain. I am loathe to do the "situational," argument since a person can make up any situation to support their argument, however due to the deck design of DS I think these are actually valid. The fact of the matter is that even though we can reasonably cast 1RR, 2R means we'll pretty much never have to compromise our hand/board to cast it.

Forlorn Egoist

[Clark Kant]

Post...

Forlorn Egoist

Excellent post. Very well said.

You make an excellent case for Lord of Shatterskull Pass as well. I think I will play that as a 2 of in the new list above (cutting 1 Moltensteel, 1 Covetous). Updated the list to reflect the change.

[Zoomer3989]

If your going to play Level-up creatures, why not use Kargan Dragonlord or even Figure? Your paying for a 6/6 for 6 mana that's just as susceptible to removal, except you have to probably tap-out the turn you play it. I just don't see how it's a viable option at all.

[ForlornEgoist]

If your going to play Level-up creatures, why not use Kargan Dragonlord or even Figure? Your paying for a 6/6 for 6 mana that's just as susceptible to removal, except you have to probably tap-out the turn you play it. I just don't see how it's a viable option at all.

@ Figure of Destiny: When was the last time you were able to get 6 red mana reasonably without using Song? Figure is a great late game card, but his level 1 is useless and his level 2 is a vanilla 4/4 leaving his level 3 as the only viable level. Oh, and Chalice @ 1.

@ Kargan Dragonlord is better than Figure but not by much. Pre-Phyrexia I would say he occupied the Moltensteel slot but he's no longer necessary IMO. Moltensteel costs 4 to Kargan's 6 to become a 4/4 Flyer however Moltensteel has firebreathing which is a definite plus. Moltensteel also can't get blown out by that random Chalice @ 2 and he doesn't force us to decide between Leveling up or casting threats. Kargan does.

Yea, on paper Figure or Kargan seem infinitely better than Lord of S/P but lets look at the grand scheme of mana they eat up: Figure requires 6R which realistically we're never going to cast short of Song or late-game. Kargan requires 8R to give him a 4/4 edge over Moltensteel. Lord requires a one-time 1R to enable him to kill nearly any creature with exception to KotR/Terravore/Crusher/Emrakul(Prog)/etc.

You need to look at how much raw investment each card requires to make it good. Lord of S/P requires only 1 red source and at bare minimum 1 turn after casting to make him strong enough to deal with nearly any creature threat. Figure necessitates 6R, 2-3 turns and most likely either a Song or an insane amount of Mountains/Mox/SSG. Kargan requires 3 turns at bare minimum assuming you have 3 red sources and don't want to do anything else in those turns.

Realistically, Lord of Shatterskull Pass is quite obviously the most viable option. I fail to see where the confusion is coming from.

Forlorn Egoist

[ForlornEgoist]

Sorry for the double post but seeing as how this post has a completely different subject from my previous post I figured it might be forgiven (I'd edit the previous post and just add this but I'd like to ask a genuine question which can sometimes get missed in longer posts).

What is the best way for us to deal with "Cheated," creatures such as Emrakul/Prog/etc.? I've been considering Noetic Scales but sometimes that seems like it could hurt us as well (although since going non-Hellbent I've been finding myself able to keep cards in hand much easier).

Forlorn Egoist

[mercs]

Sorry for the double post but seeing as how this post has a completely different subject from my previous post I figured it might be forgiven (I'd edit the previous post and just add this but I'd like to ask a genuine question which can sometimes get missed in longer posts).

What is the best way for us to deal with "Cheated," creatures such as Emrakul/Prog/etc.? I've been considering Noetic Scales but sometimes that seems like it could hurt us as well (although since going non-Hellbent I've been finding myself able to keep cards in hand much easier).

Forlorn Egoist

Phyrexian metamorph has been amazing for me in testing.
It destroys any of the legendary guys, and doesn't force your creatures back to your hand. esp bc a lot of our creatures have high power, it's difficult to support noetic scales.
I haven't faced s&t in tourney play, but metamorph was key in beating dredge last month (iona).
Also, as an sb slot, he's much more versatile. I've been trying out him as an anti stonforge mystic + batterskull strategy. You can copy SfM and search for a SoLS or SoFF to get pro black, which will beat the black token clean. right now, i like SoLS bc it will get past both SfM and batterskull.

[Zoomer3989]

Sorry for the double post but seeing as how this post has a completely different subject from my previous post I figured it might be forgiven (I'd edit the previous post and just add this but I'd like to ask a genuine question which can sometimes get missed in longer posts).

What is the best way for us to deal with "Cheated," creatures such as Emrakul/Prog/etc.? I've been considering Noetic Scales but sometimes that seems like it could hurt us as well (although since going non-Hellbent I've been finding myself able to keep cards in hand much easier).

Forlorn Egoist

For Emrakul, Stingscourger I've heard is effective, but I have no idea on Progenitus unless you can equip a Sword of B/M on to a creature or use Jitte to gain life and race.

And the confusion on Lord of SP is simple - it's a godawful card that no deck would ever take seriously, is not efficient for its cost at all, and overall just seems terrible for its investment. If you have the mana for LOSP, you almost certainly have it for Kargan, or FOD, Rakdos, or Moltensteel. I agree on Moltensteel and I'm going to try it over Gathan or maybe Revoker/Lodestone/flex shot, but I think we need another red card them for Chrome Mox. I think the deck needs 20 Red cards at minimum for Chrome Mox.

EDIT: Phyrexian Metamorph sounds like an awesome card in the side or maybe even mained? Willing to give it a shot.

[ForlornEgoist]

Oh, right, I had completely forgotten about Metamorph. Thanks for reminding me (I really wasn't too fond of the Noetic Scales).


And the confusion on Lord of SP is simple - it's a godawful card that no deck would ever take seriously, is not efficient for its cost at all, and overall just seems terrible for its investment. If you have the mana for LOSP, you almost certainly have it for Kargan, or FOD, Rakdos, or Moltensteel

I'm pretty sure if an opponent is sitting on 'Goyf(s) and you have a 6/6, they're going to be taking it pretty seriously. At least, more so if the DS player has a 3/3 or a 5/5 Gathan on the table or a non-Hellbent RPD which they'll have to invest 3 mana in just to trade with a 'Goyf. As for efficiency, I hardly see how spending 6 mana for a 6/6 is inefficient for our deck when RPD requires a hell of a lot more mana to compete with any creature non-Hellbent and it dies to burn.

As for the whole "mana," argument you just made, if you read the entirely of my above post I make note of the fact that FOD is too mana-intensive (RRRRRR) to be reasonably cast in an average game and Kargan requires RRRRRRRR just to make him superior to a Moltensteel. 3R to cast/1R to Level once is reasonable. At absolute most you need 2 turns (1 to cast/1 to Level) to make Lord useful. I'd like for you to playtest FOD/Kargan and honestly tell me that short of lucking out with a Song it doesn't take far longer than 2 turns to make either of them viable.

If you don't like him, fine. If you're content to stick with a Hellbent build, thats fine too. But based on your arguments for him being a "gadawful card," and how "an opponent won't take him seriously," I'm assuming you've done little if any playtesting with him to which I would ask you to do so before offering the argument you've just provided.

Forlorn Egoist

[Mr Pirakos]

What is the best way for us to deal with "Cheated," creatures such as Emrakul/Prog/etc.? I've been considering Noetic Scales but sometimes that seems like it could hurt us as well (although since going non-Hellbent I've been finding myself able to keep cards in hand much easier).

Forlorn Egoist

Arena of the Ancients deals with the big Eldrazi and Progenitus.

Edit: And you can cast it while Iona is out.

[mercs]

Arena of the Ancients deals with the big Eldrazi and Progenitus.

Edit: And you can cast it while Iona is out.

the only thing i didn't like about arena is that, if you do it proactively, it won't tap an emrakul until it's to late. if you do it after they come out, they have a lot of stuff in terms of chain of vapor, echoing truth, ee, etc to take it out.

[Zoomer3989]

Oh, right, I had completely forgotten about Metamorph. Thanks for reminding me (I really wasn't too fond of the Noetic Scales).



I'm pretty sure if an opponent is sitting on 'Goyf(s) and you have a 6/6, they're going to be taking it pretty seriously. At least, more so if the DS player has a 3/3 or a 5/5 Gathan on the table or a non-Hellbent RPD which they'll have to invest 3 mana in just to trade with a 'Goyf. As for efficiency, I hardly see how spending 6 mana for a 6/6 is inefficient for our deck when RPD requires a hell of a lot more mana to compete with any creature non-Hellbent and it dies to burn.

As for the whole "mana," argument you just made, if you read the entirely of my above post I make note of the fact that FOD is too mana-intensive (RRRRRR) to be reasonably cast in an average game and Kargan requires RRRRRRRR just to make him superior to a Moltensteel. 3R to cast/1R to Level once is reasonable. At absolute most you need 2 turns (1 to cast/1 to Level) to make Lord useful. I'd like for you to playtest FOD/Kargan and honestly tell me that short of lucking out with a Song it doesn't take far longer than 2 turns to make either of them viable.

If you don't like him, fine. If you're content to stick with a Hellbent build, thats fine too. But based on your arguments for him being a "gadawful card," and how "an opponent won't take him seriously," I'm assuming you've done little if any playtesting with him to which I would ask you to do so before offering the argument you've just provided.

Forlorn Egoist

If you read my point before, you'll also see that I conceeded toward Moltensteel since it's actually playable at its CMC. You can just as easily play Kargan, in fact much earlier then LOSP ever will hit the field, and get it to 4/4 flyer when you'd be playing LOSP. You then have to pay 2 to make it equal to Kargan without flying on the same next turn, then pay 2 mana repeatedly to get to the same stats with an effect that, if you've gotten that far, won't be relevant.

I also wouldn't play Seething Song in this deck. It's an awful topdeck and slides toward more card disadvantage, especially when you don't need 5 mana for anything in the deck, and you run enough ramp to play 4-CMC threats. I'd rather run another smaller threat so that you have more board presence earlier, which I think is more important for this deck then CA, as the deck won't work anyway if you don't have your screw cards working at the same time.

I have not tested LOSP, but I'd be more then happy to watch any recorded videos you have or tourament reports you have singing its praises. But frankly, on paper the card is too expensive to play and does too little for what I'd be willing to pay.

[mercs]

I have not tested LOSP, but I'd be more then happy to watch any recorded videos you have or tourament reports you have singing its praises. But frankly, on paper the card is too expensive to play and does too little for what I'd be willing to pay.

Me and egoist have plenty of experience between us (i've been running DS from '08ish). and from what i see, me and egoist are some of the few who put up t8's in big crowds (40-50+). Although I have always advocated hellbent DS, I do not think LoSP is a slouch in any sense. He only has some unfortunate matchups just like every other creature.

[Zoomer3989]

Me and egoist have plenty of experience between us (i've been running DS from '08ish). and from what i see, me and egoist are some of the few who put up t8's in big crowds (40-50+). Although I have always advocated hellbent DS, I do not think LoSP is a slouch in any sense. He only has some unfortunate matchups just like every other creature.

Do you have lists/Top-8 reports and/or videos that show it, or tournament reports? I'd like to see actual evidence of what this deck does, and it's hard for me to agree on LOSP when literally every other notable 4-drop outclasses it and does nothing other than be a 6/6 for 6 total mana, and can be killed by Bolt jsut as badly as anything else. I can't see LOSP having good matchups anywhere except Goblins, which rolls over to any heavy, enduring creature in reality. I can agree on Moltensteel because it can actually kill in a turn's swing and is at worst a 4/4 flyer for 4.

How has not running Jitte or SOBAM feel? I feel like Jitte might be necessary for MSD with Ancient Tomb, possibly siding SOBAM.

[NecroYawgmoth]

okay...

I cutted Seething Song often, and played with it on and off... in the end, the deck needs to be played with Seething Songs. You want a first turn disruption piece, and then the biggest and baddest thing you can get. Problem is, that R hasn't any Goyfish or Knightish creatures for that low CC of 2 or 3, so we need to abuse the Sol-Lands and Songs to get the biggest thing we can get.

Kargan Dragonlord really shine with Bloodmoon in play, and it is just surreal sick on Ultimate level, but so is Shatterskull. Fact is Kargan gets power creeped by Moltensteel Dragon. Also, if you don't play Seething, Kargan gets a lot worse. He is super with loads of R mana when you tossing around Kothes and Seethings... but without that much R, its simple: 3R + 1R >>> RR + RRRR.

This deck doesn't lose the game by an 2nd or 3rd turn flyer, this deck loses from an early Goyf or stuff like that. That's the reason why SoB&M is good here, and that is also the reason why Shatterskull is better than Kargan here.

IMO in theory, Kargan on Ultimate, or in general, looks infinetiely better than Shatterskull. But in reality, it's different. I tested both cards on and off, seriously.

Also, it may sound stupid, but besides Hellbent-Critters, Shatterskull really looks like the most "beatdownish" creature there is for mana cost/efficence-ratio =(

[Zoomer3989]

This will probably have been discussed before, but could we conceivably try Threshold, and therefore Fledgling Dragon, in this deck?

[mercs]

Do you have lists/Top-8 reports and/or videos that show it, or tournament reports?

Not sure what you meant by "show"

-In terms of using LoSP, i don't bc i said i'm a hellbent advocate (so obv. i wasn't going that route). I'll be willing to give it a try sometime though and share my experience.

-In terms of showing that I do t8....


When was the last time this Top 8'd?

Mid-Decemeber at the Mox Ruby tourney; in field of Survivals no less.

This was me. tourney report was in the old thread (yes, i'm a old geezer).

EDIT: As for the threshhold, I've tried it, but with not much success. Didn't try hard to make a good build though.

[Darth Nihilus]

This will probably have been discussed before, but could we conceivably try Threshold, and therefore Fledgling Dragon, in this deck?

by the time you get your ******** you could also cast anything else in the deck.

with the lack of cantrips/instant/sorcceries ******** isnt a realistic options. decks with a suit of almost only permanents doesnt realy want a ******** plan.


also how about Aftershock? has anyone tried it so far? seems worth 2-3 spots MB to get rid of stallblockers/maze of ith/glacial chasm/pesky artifacts

[Zoomer3989]

Not sure what you meant by "show"

-In terms of using LoSP, i don't bc i said i'm a hellbent advocate (so obv. i wasn't going that route). I'll be willing to give it a try sometime though and share my experience.

-In terms of showing that I do t8....




This was me. tourney report was in the old thread (yes, i'm a old geezer).

EDIT: As for the threshhold, I've tried it, but with not much success. Didn't try hard to make a good build though.

I meant results with LOSP, but if you could link me to your report I'd appreciate it. I don't mean to be aggressive but I really can't believe there isn't a better card for this purpose then LOSP.

[Zoomer3989]

Not sure what you meant by "show"

-In terms of using LoSP, i don't bc i said i'm a hellbent advocate (so obv. i wasn't going that route). I'll be willing to give it a try sometime though and share my experience.

-In terms of showing that I do t8....




This was me. tourney report was in the old thread (yes, i'm a old geezer).

EDIT: As for the threshhold, I've tried it, but with not much success. Didn't try hard to make a good build though.

I meant results with LOSP, but if you could link me to your report I'd appreciate it. I don't mean to be aggressive but I really can't believe there isn't a better card for this purpose then LOSP.

[ForlornEgoist]

I have not tested LOSP, but I'd be more then happy to watch any recorded videos you have or tourament reports you have singing its praises. But frankly, on paper the card is too expensive to play and does too little for what I'd be willing to pay.

By the same logic since DS lacks notable video/tournament coverage its a subpar deck not worth playing, yet here we all are, still playing it. I don't exactly see any videos advocating Hellbent either, but I'm not about to disown the concept entirely because it is a valid tangent into which the deck can venture. If you want theorize about cards, hey, we all do that, but particularly when we're discussing a card that recieves much attention (if not in decklists in discussion) at the very list I would suggest playtesting the card before disowning it. Now I'll admit I have not tested Kargan adequately (did one local Legacy tourney, 24 people, and after having him blow me out I took him out) but I'm not going so far to decry him as jank, just to the point where I consider him subpar to other choices.

As for Jitte to this point I've kept it consistently as a 3-of in my deck because heck, lets face, Jitte is obvious an all-time MVP essentially reading "deal with me or I killz j00!1!." However since we've been getting better creatures lately I've been currently testing 3 Batterskull/2 Sword of Body and Mind. 3 may seem like a bit much but I've thrown it in my 3-of Slogger slot (although to think there was a point where I actually hated Slogger and considered him jank *rubs Sloggers lovingly*).

So far the Batterskulls have proven quite effective. Albeit you need to run them with Songs or else that 5cc/5 equip will come back to bite ya but equiping this on Moltensteel (auto-swoon) or any other beastie can be back breaking, esp. for decks such as Merfolk. Although I sacrifice spot removal from Slogger I've found the 'Vigilance/Lifelink," to be equally viable against aggro, and lets face it, how often have any of us needed to Shock 6-8 damage directly to the dome to win. I believe there's a 'Goyf tourney coming up (usually around 75 people) so hopefully I can test them in a proper tourney as opposed to my janky meta.

@ Zoomer: Sorry if I seem[ed] a little bitchy there for a sec. I tend to get very competitive about certain things and can ocassionally go all "R@wr! Proselytize the heathen!" when debating cards. :tongue:

Forlorn Egoist

[Zoomer3989]

I don't think you sound bitchy at all, I've never questioned this deck's complete lack of tournament success, I actually just like the concept and wanted to build it. I just can't believe that the best option this deck is essentially a janky 6/6 for 6 that you can pay over 2 turns. And to be fair, all of the videos I've ever seen of the deck, plus the two times I've played against it, were Hellbent versions and none of them ran LOSP.

I actually really like the 2-2 split, but having the 2nd Jitte does suck when you can't throw it away when lacking Gathan Raiders.

[mercs]

I meant results with LOSP, but if you could link me to your report I'd appreciate it. I don't mean to be aggressive but I really can't believe there isn't a better card for this purpose then LOSP.

I see, np. report is the bottom post.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7622-Deck-Dragon-Stompy&p=502454&viewfull=1#post502454

Some things to think about in deckbuilding and DS tho:
-there doesn't have to be one premium build for this deck. Strength in many archetypes comes from variety.
-It's hard to say that DS is seriously subpar compared to everyone else. I was at a tourney where lots of ppl were running affinity and dredge. I think maybe one of them had a better record than i did. Primarily, u'll see top 8's more if more ppl run it.
-When picking creatures, you can't always throw creatures into preexisting lists just because you want to (exceptions being goyf, and stoneforge mystic). It's best to build a deck as a whole to compliment what you want from the deck.

[Clark Kant]

I just did some quick trials with Lord of Shatterskull Pass and Firespout, and I'm not happy with either card. LOSP is just too much mana for not enough creature it felt like. Also, when I have any other creature on the board, Batterskull wasn't any better than Sword of Light and Shadow.

So I tried different variations of hellbent cards, and I think hellbent works best when it's a light splash, rather than something the whole deck is built on and dependent on achieving. So I wound up with this...


//Lands
5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein

//Mana Acceleration
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

//Bombs that destroy opposing decks
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Jitte/SOLS/SOFI/SOMB/Batterskull/Revoker

//Dragons!!!!
4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Covetous Dragon
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon


This is what I'm going with for now. I'm very pleased with it. By not playing too many Pit Dragons, you usually see them mid game when they are actually really powerful, rather than in your opening hand. Any in the opening hand can be attached to Chrome Mox if needed as well.

[Faka]

I'm playing with this deck for a few months since last year. The results showed that two cards are worth for considering for maindeck: Lightning dragon and Jaya Ballard, task mage.

During my testings i found that Lightning dragon is an efficient creature, and i think it makes the cut. It´s imune to lightinig bolt and the echo is not so difficult to pay. Also it does not decrease the effectiveness of chrome mox. Jaya is a good card against blue, help achieve hellbent and get's ride of Jace and other annoying blue permanents, like sower and Tezzeret. My list:

11 mountains.
8 sol lands.
4 Simian.
4 Lightning Dragon.
4 Rakdos.
4 Gathan.
4 Trinisphere.
4 Magus.
4 Moon.
2 Jaya.
3 Moltensteel.
4 Chrome Mox.

Sometimes i change 3 moltensteel for 3 kavus or 3 equipments or 3 lords.

Greetings.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Report!!!

I was on a 91 people Legay Event yesterday [7 rounds], and finished 16th [played 5-2]

My list was this:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Arc-Slogger
3 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
8 Snow-Covered Mountain

////

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
2 Tormod's Crypt

Last minute changes were -3 Covetous for +1 Slogger and +2 Shatterskull, and -2 Furnace for +2 Mountain. It somewhat strange that I am saying this, but Slogger is infinitely better than Covetous.


Round 1 against Michael with Caw Blade 0-2

G1 He wins the dieroll and starts with Flooded Strand, go. I started with Tomb->SSG->Magus, he fetched in response for a Tundra, and floats white. EOT he kills my Magus with StoP. 2nd turn he drops Stoneforge which finds Batterskull. I play Mountain->Seething->Slogger. He forced that Slogger. Turn 3 Batterskull, turn 4 Jace TMS, gg for me.

G2 I start with Mountain->go, he starts with Fetchland->Go, I resolve a Revoker naming Stoneforge and he plays a Stoneforge for Batterskull on turn 2. Stoneforge and Revoker attack for 2 turns, I was stuck at 3 Mana, He Cliques me for a Arc-Slogger at end of my Turn 4, my Hand was FTK, FTK, FTK, Slogger. He decided that I can keep that. In his turn Clique attacked me. I topdecked a Land next turn and FTKed Clique. He played StoP on my Revoker and EOTed a Batterskull. he does nothing in his turn. I drew Land and he Cliqued me again, and took my just drawn Land. I get a Seething Song. Try to Seething->Slogger, He FoWed the Slogger. My hand was 2 lonely FTK at this point and my board was 4 Lands. He has 7 Lands, a Stoneforge, a Batterskull and a Clique. He could always save his Batterskull from FTK by bouncing. In the end, I lost.


Round 2 against Julian with Merfolk. 0-2

G1 I start with Tomb->Mox->Trini. He starts with Wastelanding my Tomb. I drew another Mountain, but was screwed for like 4 Turns. He plays Silvergills and Lords, and I just lost.

G2 I start with Tomb->Mox->Trini. He wastes me again. I play City->SSG->Shatterskull, which was 6/6 on turn 3, and won the game by itself.

G3 He starts with Vial, I start with Mountain, and nothing more, he does nothing on turn 2, me also. He lands Kira on turn 3, I land Tomb->Shatterskull. He wasted my Tomb, he does some Vial & Lord actions. My FTK on my hand was worthless, and I had nothing than a Shatterskull VS a Silvergill / Kira and a Reejerey. More Lords incoming, I drew more lands ->> gg 4 me


Round 3 against Martin with Thopter Foundry 2-0

G1 I start with Tomb->Chalice 1, Which resolves. Turn 2 Blood Moon which also resolves. He lays down Sword of the Meek. I play a Revoker naming Thopter Foundry. He plays 2 Tops into my Chalice, and Spell Pierced his 2nd Top in Response to the Chalice Trigger. I don't understood this, and Beat more with Revoker. Next turn He played another cc1 Spell, and Spell Pierced that spell also. I realized, that this is not possible, cuz of my Blood Moon, and that he couldn't even play that spell Pierce last turn, also. He looked at the board... said, well Allright, than I can't win anyways. He showed me a Ensnaring Bridge and scooped.

G2 He starts with Fetchland->Dualland go, I start with first turn Tomb->Mox->Moon which resolves. I had no business, so I played 2 SSGs turn 2 and 3. They killed him =P


Round 4 against Alex with Affinity 2-1

G1 He starts with Ancient Den, Ornithopter, Springleaf Drum, Signal Pest. I start with City->Mox->Magus of the Moon. He played Land->Plating on turn 2, equipped it on Orni and swung with a 7/2 Orni and Pest. I Seething Songed a Slogger, played a Mountain, and passed the Turn. He [I would lost that game if Slogger was an Covetous]. He attacked again, I sloggered Orni, taking 0 damage. Slogger takes that game to Win.

G2 Broken and fast Affinity action.

G3 I start with Mounatin->go. He played Ancient Den->Springleaf Drum. I played Tomb->Magus. He played Darksteel Citadel->Signal Pest, and Plating. I seething Songed into a Shattering Spree, killing all his 5 Artifacts. He does land->go the next Turn. I landed a Trinisphere. Magus beats the game under Trinisphere to win.


Round 5 against Marco with Team America 2-0

G1 He starts with Fetchland->go. I start with first Turn Ancient Tomb, and asks me If I am playing MUD. I said nothing, and played Mox->Magus, he was like "wtf is this for a deck", resonse fetch to U-Sea, Brainstorm, and let the Blood Moon resolve. He played another Mountain->Go. I played Moltensteel Dragon via land and SSG. and attacked with Magus. He does another Moutain->Go. I attacked with Magus and Moltensteel, looking at my life and lands, asking "you are at 17, right?" He answered "yes". I played with my Moltensteel, and was thinking, hmmm... He scooped.

G2 He starts with Land->go, I start with Chalice 1 which got Fowed. He does Nothing on turn 2 except laying a Land. I Seething-Sloggered on turn 2 which resolves. He played a Goyf. I FTKed the Goyf. He does nothing except playing Brainstorm. I resolved a Moon and beat with FTK and Slogger for the win.


Round 6 against Konstantin with Bitterstalker??? 1-2

G1 He start with Mox->imprint Edict->Dual->Bitterblossom. I start with Moon. He gets his Token and does nothing. I Seething Songed into a Moltensteel. which attacked 2 times, before it gots teamblocked by 4 Faerie Tokens. I played another Moltensteel with 4 Lands. His life was at 7 thanks to Blossom and Moltensteel attacks, mine was at 10 thanks to Moltensteel and Tombs. I attacked with Moltensteel each turn forced him to always block with his Faerie-Token. After 3 Turns he realized that this is useless and he scooped.

G2 DoubleFoW and a 2nd Turn Goyf which starts swings for 5 at the start of the 3rd turn.

G3 I start with Chalice which get FoWed. He plays Land->go, I play a Trini 2nd turn, he Brainstorms, then Dazes, I reveal a SSG. He let it resolve. turn 3 Blood Moon, turn 4 Moltensteel->gg


Round 7 against Christian with Dredge 2-0

G1 I start with Trinisphere, he DDDs a GGT. I played a Lord of Shatterskull Pass on turn 2. He dredges for 6, hitting nothing. DDDs the GGT again. I leveled up the Shatterskull, and attacked. He dredges again, played a Coliseum, and uses it to dredge into 2 Moebas and 2 Bridge. I played a Magus of the Moon, and attacked, with Shatterskull. He blocks with Moeba and gets a Token. He Dredges for 6 finding nothing. I Seething Song the Shatterkull to Ultimate level, and attack him, he gets 2 Tokens thanks to his other Moeba. He dredges again and finds both remainign Moebas and 2 Bridges and passes the turn. I played 2 blockers [1 Magus and 1 SSG] for the incoming Zombie Shitstorm and attacked with Shatterskull. He took the damage, and got 8 Zombie Tokens. [I had 3 Blockers at this moment, 2 Magus and 1 SSG]. I won next Turn. He never founds his Ichorids =P

G2 He started with City->Tribe, and I started with Trinisphere again, forcing him to slowdredge, He plays Tarnished and attacked me with Tribe. I played a Shatterskull again. He dredges, finds 2 Bridges and an Ichorid, attacked, and passes the turn. I played a FTK targeting itself to remove his Bridges. He Dredges again and found a 2nd Ichorid. I spent the next 2 turns with leveling my Shatterskull, and taking 4 damage 2 Ichorids and the Tribe [always blocking an Ichorid]. Shatterskull reaches Ultimate, and attacked him, He blocked with a 1/13 Tribe. I played a Magus just in case he will find Bridges to block his Ichroid. He reanimats both Ichorids, and Dredges a Bridge. He attacks with both Ichorids, I block both with Magus and Shatterskull. He still got his Token, and his Bridge got Exiled. It was my Turn again. I was at 3 life, he was at 13. He has 1 Tribe, 1 Zombie Token, 2 Ichorids in the yard, and 1 handcard. I attacked with Shatterskull, which swung him down to 7. His turn. He was, well... then reanimate both Ichorids, draw a card -> attack. I tapped 3 Mountains and played Volcanic Fallout. He reads the card, and says good game. =)


Conclusions:
-Arc Slogger is better than Covetous
-Moltensteel Dragon is awesome
-Lord of Shatterskull Pass is the worst out of these 3
-It was always a mistake to cut Seething Song
-Volcanic Fallout being instant is relevant =P
-I need better Aggro hate than FTK
-I still hate Merfolk


thats it... I wrote enough now =P

[JCLe]

Report!!!

Round 1 against Michael with Caw Blade 0-2
I drew Land and he Cliqued me again, and took my just drawn Land.

Cool report but, ^^^ ?

When Vendilion Clique enters the battlefield, look at target player's hand. You may choose a nonland card from it. If you do, that player reveals the chosen card, puts it on the bottom of his or her library, then draws a card.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Cool report but, ^^^ ?

When Vendilion Clique enters the battlefield, look at target player's hand. You may choose a nonland card from it. If you do, that player reveals the chosen card, puts it on the bottom of his or her library, then draws a card.

DUH! Cheater!!!! Nah, kidding, but stuff like this could happen sometimes. I wasn't aware of this in that situation. I don't think that this was relevant for the game, but thanks for that information =D

[ForlornEgoist]

Round 1 against Michael with Caw Blade 0-2

-G1 He wins the dieroll and starts with Flooded Strand, go. I started with Tomb->SSG->Magus, he fetched in response for a Tundra, and floats white. EOT he kills my Magus with StoP. 2nd turn he drops Stoneforge which finds Batterskull. I play Mountain->Seething->Slogger. He forced that Slogger. Turn 3 Batterskull, turn 4 Jace TMS, gg for me.


Um... how does he do this now? I'm assuming you did this during your first main phase. If he opted to wait until EOT to cast StP then his mana pool would have been empty at that point. Remember that mana pools empty after each step and each phase so technically this was not a legal move. :tongue:

Great report! I always love seeing DS beating "legitimate," decks. ^.^

How did the Fallouts work for you over the 'kinesis? I've always felt they were the auto 4-of in our SB but since I've begun to MD 4 FTK (heavily aggro meta) I've found the 'kinesis to be redundant somewhat whereas the instant speed/uncounterable of Fallout seems like it'd be a much better compliment.

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

Um... how does he do this now? I'm assuming you did this during your first main phase. If he opted to wait until EOT to cast StP then his mana pool would have been empty at that point. Remember that mana pools empty after each step and each phase so technically this was not a legal move. :tongue:

Great report! I always love seeing DS beating "legitimate," decks. ^.^

How did the Fallouts work for you over the 'kinesis? I've always felt they were the auto 4-of in our SB but since I've begun to MD 4 FTK (heavily aggro meta) I've found the 'kinesis to be redundant somewhat whereas the instant speed/uncounterable of Fallout seems like it'd be a much better compliment.

Forlorn Egoist

Well... He did it when I changed the phase, ofc... But I didn't do anything this turn, so he ofc does it in the end of the phase. [I think if I say turn, after playing the Magus, it is a shortut to say, "I would like to go through all phases, and simply end the turn."]

Well, I really like the Fallouts, because I don't want to get card-disadvantage that often without Hellbent. Also, I don't board out Trinis in every Aggro MU, so Pyrokinesis for 3 Mana and a handcard is pretty bad. I search for a other "mass removal [maybe Firespout], or a BIG removal spell [something like Shivan Meteor] =D

[ForlornEgoist]

Yea, I figured as a control player he'd be smart enough to at least know when to do it, but bells went off in my head thinking "Hm, maybe he did that at the wrong time." Of course I'd assume he'd do it at end-of-phase since its kind of stupid to say "End first main phase, go into non-existent combat phase."

Shivan Meteor=Win for DS. What, you have KotR/Terravore/Crusher/Batterskull-equipped creature? Too bad. lol, love it.

Forlorn Egoist

[guidogulp]

I guess Covetous is better than Slogger if you are playing equips, as it has evasion... On the other hand Slogger implies almost in any case 4 shocks

I'm going with 2 covetous right now, looking like this:

2 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

2 Covetous dragon
3 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 FTK

4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox

2 jitte
3 SoBaM

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great furnace
7 Mountain

[NecroYawgmoth]

That might be right, but when ypu play 20 Screw-Parts and 30 Mana Parts, you have only 10 cards for the kill, and Equipment reduces these "kill-slots". Also Equipment is no thread by itself. [yeah, I know, Batterskull, but you get my point =P]

[ThoSha]

Congratz on your finish! =D
Reading about some DS action is nice, i laughed especially at the part where you asked for his life and played with your moltensteel haha. I do that all the time.
Any more informations about how your choices turned out would be nice too.
Would you prefer Slogger over Batterskull again or would you replace Lord of Shatterskull with something else too? etc
How about Chaos warp? :D

[guidogulp]

@Necro, consider that equips SSG and magus into good beaters. Plus, after cutting Gathans and RPD (the hellbent choice hasn't been working out quite well as I can see), I feel like DS equip (playing with beaters, not priest nor revoker) can make the deal in this general meta.

@ThoSha, guess I still prefer Slogger over Batterskull (I need the red mana in my list, so...): much more of a beater, finisher (4 shocks can certainly win you many games) and an aggro/control creature.

[NecroYawgmoth]

ThoSha: Sloggers over Batterskull all day, I need a replacement for Shatterskull, but it doesn't exist...

guidogukp: true, but Swords arent beaters by itself... any why no Revokers in equip-DS Oo?

[guidogulp]

Just personal opinion, I'm not much of a fan of revokers... I'd rather play FTK instead

Revoker, for me, is way a too situational card... so I consider it not to be THAT good, and certainly not for the MD. On the other hand, it'd lower my red card count


Anyway, I think the main decision is whether to play equips or not, and then your decklist would come almost naturally

[Zoomer3989]

I really like a full set of Moltensteel mained, and I think if you want equips then using Rakdos Pit is still worth it, as the double-strike is really nice with SOBAM.

I also like the idea of just using equips, plus Moltensteel/Slogger/something as finishers, maybe just Revoker and LOSP (drr) and cut Hellbent altogether, though I really think Rakdos and equips are to awesome to eschew together.

[ForlornEgoist]

After my tourney yesterday (wrote a report but apparantly the Forum decided to be stupid and say "Dur, scroll back to recover, durr, we deleted it when you scrolled back) I made a few observations for the deck:

1) In every instance I had a Slogger Batterskull would have made a much bigger impact on the game state. Surprisingly I drew a Slogger in every MU (Gobs/Affinity/MBA/UR Control) and even did the T1 Song->Slogger 3 times and in each instance I would have preffered Batterskull (esp. against Gobos which played the card that makes their deck viable, Ringleader, pulling off a Gempalm/Piledriver/Ringleader that won them game 3 -.-). I already have 1 Batterskull for SFM so once I get the 2nd I plan to take out 2 Sloggers for them and see how it fans out.
2) Mountain Yeti=Sex. The Pro-White is highly relevant as white is the primary source of removal and this also enables it to block KotR all day.
3) After some discussion with the other DS player in my meta we're both considering testing out -4 FTK for +3 Red Sun's Zenith. Although FTK is amazing in our meta due to the excessive amounts of aggro on occassion we have been unable to cast the 3R immediately when needed. An early Hierarch/Mom/Lackey/Bob/etc. can give the opponent an amazing edge over us. Albeit FTK deals 4 damage and provides us with a beater but sometimes I've found it more relevant to have cheap removal immediately not to mention RSZ seems like it might have less diminishing returns as the game progresses.
4) I don't want to up my Kazuul count to 4 (currently 2) in the SB because I think its overkill but just once I'd like to actually draw/cast this card at a relevant time in a tribal MU. Seriously, it would save me so many losses if I could just draw it.
5) I don't run Phyrexian Metamorph but my fellow DS player does and last night (even though he went 0-4) he said it was highly relevant as he copied a Batterskull/Jitte/Progenitus/'Goyf/and 1-2 other cards. Are you guys having similar success with Metamorph? (When we were listing all the stuff it could copy both he and I were like: "OMGOGGLES it can copy SDT! Yay for card fixing! Oh, wait: ETB. They'll just put Top on top of deck. Dammit that card is so annoying."

Forlorn Egoist

[guidogulp]

I'm going with Traitorous instinct instead of metamorph, though it cannot deal with equips nor progenitus like metamorph I consider it to be better as even stealing a 4/5 goyf you deal a great dmg with it and in many cases it gives you the match.

Anyway, I'll be trying metamorph again in some time.

[NecroYawgmoth]

hmm, would you report again?

Also, if Red Sun's Zenith end up being good, how about including Rosheen Meanderer as a beater?

Phyrexian Metamorph seems good in theory, but IMO it's only a sideboard card here =/

Oh, and btw, what about Spitebellows as a removal creature?

[ForlornEgoist]

Yea, I'll write up the report again. Its just that I'm the type of person who likes doing a play-by-play breakdown and doing such for 4 matches only to have it deleted just made me do a ragequit.

@ Rosheen Meanderer By the Gods! Chalice @3 is now within reach!

@ Spitebellows: Interesting. Kills 'Goyfs and 3cc is quite reasonable to remove a good majority of creature threats. Add Ingot Chewer to the SB and we have now made Evoke the new super-awesome DS tech!

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

Chalice 3 is somewhat self-killing, why would you do that? =D

Maybe I'll test Spitebellows the next tourney I compete, but I just <3 Kavu too much =/

I am also thinking of maindecking 4 Kuldotha Forgemasters and a Blightsteel =D would be hilarious if that works =D

[ThoSha]

Red Suns Zenith?
That card is just another crap Blaze. =/

But you could pair the Wanderer up with Wormcoil Engine. :P

[NecroYawgmoth]

Actually its a better Blaze =D

...and about the Meanderer ---> "Spend this mana only on costs that contain {X}."

[ThoSha]

Not at all. It might be better against Dredge, but compared to Demonfire it can just be countered.
Makes it a weak removal and a weak finisher for me.


Oh damn, i thought i forgot about something. nvm

[NecroYawgmoth]

I agreee that none of any X-damage spells is ideal...

neither is Demonfire because of its Hellbentishness...

If you want uncounterable/preventable stuff play Banefire or Urza's Rage which are suboptimal also.

[Octopusman]

I'm looking to strengthen my post-board games.
The matchups I feel I need to board for that I expect to be present are:
Merfolk (which I have historically had a hard time with for some reason)
Control
Dedge
Affinity
Meandeck MUD

I will post my list for reference at the end of the post but it's the same main deck that I last posted. The side board is as follows:


Seething Song 4
Arc-Slogger 2
Shattering Spree 2
Firespout 3
Anarchy 3
Kazzul, Tyrant of the Cliffs 1

So it's slightly more difficult to discuss the side board because I have been keeping my Seething Song/Arc-Slogger package there. It has been working really well for me. Our metagame is diverse enough that I can't expect a majority to be agro/tribal. Slogger has been amazing so I definitely want to have it in the board. I only have room for 2 because I won't want to go above 3 cards in my 5CMC slot since they can be difficult to play without seething song. I Kazzul as a one of and I would bring it in for the same matchups as slogger. Song can be great with shattering spree and as I mentioned, Meandeck MUD and Affinity are present.
The Spouts are there because I feel even with the song/slogger+kazuul package I know that Merfolk could definitely be a deck that I face and as I mentioned, they tend to give me a hard time. 2 damage sweepers don't cut it these days (been feeling this pain lately with one my favorites, grim lavamancer, in other decks) and I think spout is the optimal choice despite fallout's uncounterability.

I would say that the odds of playing against Dredge are fairly bad. I bring it up because aside from maybe Kazuul, I don't have a Dredge plan and am hoping to dodge it. I wouldn't mind having graveyard hate if possible. I used to have two Ratchet Bombs to deal with Empty the Warrens tokens and zombies. Thoughts?

Aside from shutting down Control with Moon effects, I'm really wondering if three Anarchy will cut it against the many Peacekeeper and Moat I believe to be a real a real problem. I only have 2 Shattering Spree[cards] to deal with [cards]Ensnaring Bridge but somehow I feel better about dealing with Ensnaring Bridge than the white permanents I already mentioned. I don't like Chaos Warp because I know it'll reveal a Jace 2.0 and they'll bounce my threat (lol). Sure, there are good odds it will be a land but I don't think taking the chance is worth the weakening of other matchups by taking other side board cards that are needed to improve matches against other archetypes.

Long story short, I have some time to brainstorm about it so I am wondering how you all deal with similar issues (peacekeeper effects, tribal, etc). It may be worth it to consider my main deck when making suggestions how I might be able to improve my situation.

My maindeck is firm, even if I have to abandon the song/slogger package in the board for alternative strategies to fight tribal. It has been the most consistent version of Hellbent Dragon Stompy I have tested/played with. Although, I am tempted to add 1 more copy of Sword of War and Peace though I'm not sure what I would remove for it (as I mentioned, this equip is the real deal in Dragon Stompy from my experience).

Lands:
Mountain 10
City of Traitors 4
Ancients Tomb 4

Screw:
Trinisphere 4
Chalice of the Void 4
Blood Moon 4
Beats: Phyrexian Revoker 4
Magus of the Moon 4


Acceleration:
Chrome Mox 4
Beats: Priest of Urabrask 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4

Main Win Conditions:
Rakdos Pit Dragon 4
Gathan Raiders 4

Threat Protection:
Game Ender: Sword of War and Peace 2

Cheers,

[unicoerner]

Would Avalanche Rider be an option for DS?
His costs are sick, but he offers a beater and a good synergistic disruption, especiaaly if we can hit a basic

[NecroYawgmoth]

Avalanche Riders just cost too much... 4 mana, and 4 more mana, to keep it alive = 8 Mana for a lousy effect... nah, thank you

There is Goblin Settler, but... meh

Aight... I took my list from the last place and replaced 4 Shatterskull and 1 Slogger for 4 Forgemaster and 1 Blightsteel Colossus. My feelings about this are... dunno. While I like doing the Blightsteel thing, I hate it when I draw it, and I hate it that Forgemaster costs 5.

Well I think I go back to 3 Sloggers, and 3 Moltensteels [or 4 of any of them], and try to find the best for the remainign 3-4 Slots... Shatterskull is meh, but 2 Koth and 1 Batterskull for example doesn't look that good, either.

[mercs]

I'm looking to strengthen my post-board games.
The matchups I feel I need to board for that I expect to be present are:
Merfolk (which I have historically had a hard time with for some reason)
Control
Dedge
Affinity
Meandeck MUD



Merfolk : a combination of pyrokinesis, volcanic fallout and combust. Although kinesis is most damaging, VcF and combust i think are best bc of instant uncounterable removal. merfolk tends to attack when they think they have the advantage, so u can get a lot of 2-1 on block. Most importantly, combust is the easiest way to get around kira and a coralhelm that's gotten too big.


Control : depends.
thopter control -> null rod. takes out all threats but planeswalkers (usually).
jace/stoneforge mystic -> revoker and chalice@1 is important. volcanic fallout too.
elspeth/moat -> anarchy
intuition/loam/ruins -> tormods crypt, null rod


Dedge : a combination of volcanic fallout/firespout, tormod's crypt, and phyrexian metamorph. I feel kazuul is no longer insta-win against dredge bc many play elesh norn. the 4/4 zombies get to be too much after a while. metamorph is also needed for iona.


Affinity/Meandeck MUD : If you can get your hands on null rods, these are best. 2-3 should do. t1 null rod is 80% insta-win. should run 1-2 shattering spree though, and pyokinesis is good against affinity.

[mercs]

I'm looking to strengthen my post-board games.
The matchups I feel I need to board for that I expect to be present are:
Merfolk (which I have historically had a hard time with for some reason)
Control
Dedge
Affinity
Meandeck MUD



Merfolk : a combination of pyrokinesis, volcanic fallout and combust. Although kinesis is most damaging, VcF and combust i think are best bc of instant uncounterable removal. merfolk tends to attack when they think they have the advantage, so u can get a lot of 2-1 on block. Most importantly, combust is the easiest way to get around kira and a coralhelm that's gotten too big.


Control : depends.
thopter control -> null rod. takes out all threats but planeswalkers (usually).
jace/stoneforge mystic -> revoker and chalice@1 is important. volcanic fallout too.
elspeth/moat -> anarchy
intuition/loam/ruins -> tormods crypt, null rod


Dedge : a combination of volcanic fallout/firespout, tormod's crypt, and phyrexian metamorph. I feel kazuul is no longer insta-win against dredge bc many play elesh norn. the 4/4 zombies get to be too much after a while. metamorph is also needed for iona.


Affinity/Meandeck MUD : If you can get your hands on null rods, these are best. 2-3 should do. t1 null rod is 80% insta-win. should run 1-2 shattering spree though, and pyokinesis is good against affinity.

[Octopusman]

Merfolk : a combination of pyrokinesis, volcanic fallout and combust. Although kinesis is most damaging, VcF and combust i think are best bc of instant uncounterable removal. merfolk tends to attack when they think they have the advantage, so u can get a lot of 2-1 on block. Most importantly, combust is the easiest way to get around kira and a coralhelm that's gotten too big.


Control : depends.
thopter control -> null rod. takes out all threats but planeswalkers (usually).
jace/stoneforge mystic -> revoker and chalice@1 is important. volcanic fallout too.
elspeth/moat -> anarchy
intuition/loam/ruins -> tormods crypt, null rod


Dedge : a combination of volcanic fallout/firespout, tormod's crypt, and phyrexian metamorph. I feel kazuul is no longer insta-win against dredge bc many play elesh norn. the 4/4 zombies get to be too much after a while. metamorph is also needed for iona.


Affinity/Meandeck MUD : If you can get your hands on null rods, these are best. 2-3 should do. t1 null rod is 80% insta-win. should run 1-2 shattering spree though, and pyokinesis is good against affinity.

Thanks for the reply, mercs.

I do have null rods, but am wary about how it may affect my chrome moxen.

Combust is an interesting idea although I don't think everyone in my meta runs Kira. I'm not sure what else it's really useful against. I might as well run spinal villain. I don't think I would board in removal to try to kill a kotr before it gets too big for example. It won't kill Iona or Elesh as well.
I worry about the RR in Fallout.

I have an alternate sideboard that has 4 pyrokinesis but the deck has so much card disadvantage already compared to folk. A FoW on Kinesis might as well be gg.

I have a lot to think about - I really appreciate your detailed and thorough response.

Kind regards,

[Masamune]

Nice review about all stuffs...however in my playtests I still have problems facing any decks that run too many basics... actually a single Tombstalker with FoWs and another countermagic aways delay me considering the strategy that consist two attacks (progenitus for instace) or four like Tombstalker...
Anyway null rod is awesome comparing my results last weekend (I went 3-3 lol) facing affinities that eaten me alive :(

[Octopusman]

Nice review about all stuffs...however in my playtests I still have problems facing any decks that run too many basics... actually a single Tombstalker with FoWs and another countermagic aways delay me considering the strategy that consist two attacks (progenitus for instace) or four like Tombstalker...
Anyway null rod is awesome comparing my results last weekend (I went 3-3 lol) facing affinities that eaten me alive :(

I too have issues with opponents featuring too many basics. This is why Dragon Stompy is such an intersting deck. It's a great foil to the format when it's functioning at its full potential. But as many others have said, it is badcards.dec when facing less than idea matchups.

The only thing I can say against Prog and Tombstalker is that if everything is going according to plan, the opponent shouldn't be able to make these kinds of plays.
Ideally, the Team America player will FoW the Trinishere and you can hose them with Moon effects. Chalice @ 1 and Moon Effects are our best attempts at stopping prog imo.

But what to do about basic lands?
Goblins isn't such a bad matchup. Revoker on Vial and Boil may be enough for Folk...

However, the decks that you mentioned, fetching into basics, is an issue. We all know that once an opponent resolves something like a prog, Dragon Stompy just loses.

This deck is so "go for broke or go home". <3

[mercs]

I too have issues with opponents featuring too many basics. This is why Dragon Stompy is such an intersting deck. It's a great foil to the format when it's functioning at its full potential. But as many others have said, it is badcards.dec when facing less than idea matchups.

The only thing I can say against Prog and Tombstalker is that if everything is going according to plan, the opponent shouldn't be able to make these kinds of plays.
Ideally, the Team America player will FoW the Trinishere and you can hose them with Moon effects. Chalice @ 1 and Moon Effects are our best attempts at stopping prog imo.

But what to do about basic lands?
Goblins isn't such a bad matchup. Revoker on Vial and Boil may be enough for Folk...

However, the decks that you mentioned, fetching into basics, is an issue. We all know that once an opponent resolves something like a prog, Dragon Stompy just loses.

This deck is so "go for broke or go home". <3

There's nothing you can really do about ppl fetching basics. I just take it as a fact of life, no different than people playing decks with wasteland.

Initially, I thought combust was too specific as well, but against some maverick/taxes decks, it's still pretty relevant. I got blown up by a guy who GSZ'd into gaddock teeg. this one card foils pyrokinesis, chalice, and anarchy. this makes firespout, combust, and VcF very important to run. It's not a big deal if you pass on it though.

If you don't like VcF, firespout is definitely next best. The bonus with VcF I find is redirecting damage to jace/elspeth. if jace tms comes in bouncing, this is an uncounterable instant kill. It also buys time against thopters until you get null rod.

As for null rod, I side out most of my equipment to bring it in. yes, you lose a mox, but they lose all their mana sources, and most of their abilities. It's a great trade.

Finally, for big creatures, tombstalker and progenitus get much weaker against metamorph. tombstalker will generally trade with a copied metamorph. Also, removing it is hard since a copied tombstalker is both black and artifact. GftT, doomblade, and ghastly demise are the most popular. you also have anarchy for progenitus.

[unicoerner]

Lands
13 [BD] Mountain (3)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [HOP] Flametongue Kavu
4 [TSB] Avalanche Riders
4 [ST] Goblin Settler
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
2 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [V09] Trinisphere
1 [V10] Sword of Body and Mind
2 [CH] Blood Moon
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

I just threw this together and i like my LD package. On the other side i miss a big beatstick perhaps with evasion.

[Octopusman]

Took 3rd place in a 27 person local tourney today with the maindeck I listed recently (and again at the end of this post). Only changes (thanks mercs) were in the board.

Here was my revised board.

Anarchy 3
Firespout 4
Null Rod 4
Pyroclasm 2
Shattering Spree 2

I was pretty happy with this board overall but I was taking the lazy way out and just hoping to dodge Dredge. I feel that I could probably go -2 shattering spree, -2 pyroclasm, +4 grave hate.
It's hard to say but I might try something like that next time (missed Merfolk and Goblins so never got to go nuts with 6 sweepers really and the Null Rod were all that was needed against opposing artifacts) as Dredge did turn out to be my downfall in the long run.

Round 1:
WUG Prog
G1: He gets prog but was too beat up by double Gathan, Priest, and Revoker to get there.
G2: He gets a Lavamancer and a Jitte with some counters but got stuck under Bloodmoon and weenie beats.
Win

Round 2:
BUG Landstill
G1: He has an innocent blood for magus but not the 2nd one.
G2: Forgot - cast some moon effect.
Win

Round 3:
Doomsday Combo
G1: Storms with Tendrils and I get annihilated.
G2: Pretty sure I ride Trinisphere to victory.
G3: Got a lucky top deck after being Thoughtseized twice. The top deck was the Trinisphere he was trying to get rid of and I barely get there. I believe 1 more turn and he would have had me but I had lethal with my next attack phase so he rebuilds during my eot. He tries to go off and can't get there. Fantastic pilot, however. You can see his pimp deck in the pimp thread in the community forum.
Win

Round 4:
Dredge
Intentional Draw
ID

Round 5:
WUB Stoneforge
Intentional Draw but we decide to play for fun elsewhere after turning the slip in
G1: Forgot - beat him up with some weenies and blood moon.
G2: Destroys me with Batterskull. Jace 2.0 might have been involved too.
G3: Forgot - beat him up with some weenies and blood moon.
ID (got 2-1 in the games for fun against this opponent - Same guy who beat me last month and our decks might have literally been the same. Not sure if he changed his at all.)

Cut to Top 8: Was 3rd at this point

Round 1:
MUD Stompy
G1: I roll an 18, he rolls a 20. He goes 1st and resolves a Revoker naming Chrome Mox (I know this great player and he knew what he was playing against). This messes me up so badly since it shut off the plays that I based on keeping my hand around. I don't recover and I get beat up by Lodestone Golem, Master of Etherium, and Revoker.
G2: I resolve a Null Rod immediately followed by Magus.
G3: I resolve a Null Rod immediately followed by a Firespout taking Revoker and Porcelain Legionnaire immediately followed by a Magus.
Win

Round 2:
Dredge
G1: Chalice at 1, get munched on by zombies and Ichorids anyway. Dredge at its finest.
G2: Chalice at 1, get munched on by a bazillion zombies, Ichorids, and Angel of Despair.
Lose


So, it was a very fun day. I felt awful about not having hate for Ichorid, obviously. I really just hoped that I would dodge it. It's guys like me that make the meta good for Ichorid right now. :)
I'm not sure what hate would allow me to beat Ichorid. I saw him win against Leylines when he was paired against a buddy of mine. I'm unsure if I should really make room in my board for it regardless of being eliminated by it. We will see.

The deck is feeling pretty balanced right now. As I mentioned before, I prefer R/Hellbent list. In case no one has said it in a while. Smart mulligans are key when playing a deck in this style.
Everyone has their own preferences, but I assign values to cards that I think are going to be good against an unknown opponent or a known opponent. If I don't have a tier 1 screw card, a way to be at three mana (at least 1 red source) on turn 2 not counting spirit guide, plus a threat, I will seriously consider putting the hand back.
If I don't think that I will be able to establish intimidating board position if they counter or remove my only screw piece, I will seriously consider putting the hand back.
Not to lecture, but I would remember to mull intelligently and get in the habit of it. Sometimes I keep greedy hands of double priest, revoker, sword of war and peace and I end up regretting it.

Yes, I still advocate Sword of War and Peace in this deck because you are swinging with Magus for 10 while they are on lockdown.

Swinging with 2 or 3 2/x a turn isn't bad at all either.

The deck is so damn fun to play.


Here is the list again for reference.

Lands:
Mountain 10
City of Traitors 4
Ancient Tomb 4

Screw:
Trinisphere 4
Chalice of the Void 4
Blood Moon 4
Beats: Phyrexian Revoker 4
Magus of the Moon 4


Acceleration:
Chrome Mox 4
Beats: Priest of Urabrask 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4

Main Win Conditions:
Rakdos Pit Dragon 4
Gathan Raiders 4

Threat Protection:
Game Ender: Sword of War and Peace 2



Be interested to know how that list is working out for you unicoerner. SoFF with land destruction dorks looks fun.

[Masamune]

Congrats!!!
BTW I lost to Ichorids too, I'm thinking about run any grave hates and/or Kazuul plus a couple swords equips. I hate say about this concern: "This deck is so go for broke or go home" but its the true though.
I will test a new list soon with Moltensteel, SoWP and No-Urabrask list. I'm not sure if that's fair enough draw too many dragons or too many equipments. In my 3-3 last tournament there was a player with a U/B deck with too many basics and Tombstalker. He just pull my Metamoph's tricks into grave with Seizes and Tourach's and I just see the demon wreck me twice...(g1 and 2) :(

[Octopusman]

Congrats!!!
BTW I lost to Ichorids too, I'm thinking about run any grave hates and/or Kazuul plus a couple swords equips. I hate say about this concern: "This deck is so go for broke or go home" but its the true though.
I will test a new list soon with Moltensteel, SoWP and No-Urabrask list. I'm not sure if that's fair enough draw too many dragons or too many equipments. In my 3-3 last tournament there was a player with a U/B deck with too many basics and Tombstalker. He just pull my Metamoph's tricks into grave with Seizes and Tourach's and I just see the demon wreck me twice...(g1 and 2) :(

I can't wait for a good answer to basics if we ever get one.

I'm not sold on the Moltensteel but if it works for you, go for it. I feel that the Urabrask is especially good with the sword but not necessarily necessary.

Good luck!

Best wishes,

[mercs]

Congrats octupus man!

Just came back from 2 tournie's with really good results and really horrible results!

Some ppl asked to show results for lord of shatterskull's pass bc they didn't believe it's worth considering. I usually play hellbent DS, but i scrapped together this lists to try it out on saturday and sunday.

No-Hellbent DS
4 magus
4 ssg
4 moltensteel Dragon
4 taurean mauler
3 lord of shatterskull's pass
3 phyrexian revoker
3 flametongue kavu

4 chrome mox
4 cotv
4 blood moon
2 umezawa's jitte
2 pyrokinesis
1 sword of body and mind

10 mountain/4city/4tomb

sb:
4 leyline of sanctity
3 tormod's crypt
2 phyrexian metamorph
2 volcanic fallout
2 shattering spree
1 null rod
1 anarchy

Let's start with the good results.
Small 12 money tourney at AllStars (4 round swiss/top 8 cut)

r1: reanimator w/dark depths
g1: 2 magus on dark depths and attacked enough with ftk and magus b4 iona came out.
g2: iona came out too fast. when metamorph came in, marit lage finished me off.
g3: i think similar to g2 but in reverse :(

0-1

r2: pox!
g1: chalice@1 and kept dumbing out creatures to die. eventually a resolved LoSP put him on a 3 turn clock and got there.
g2: revealed 2 leyline of sanctity. couldn't get discarded, and had large mauler, jitte and dragon steal a win.

1-1

r3: Stax
g1: i think i mooned him out of double white, and ftk + dragons outpaced elspeth.
g2: i chalice@1 bc i knew he sided stp, but he gets 3 oblivion rings on 2 dragons and a mauler! he plays baneslayer and i rip my anarchy :P

2-1

r4: BW stoneforge (i always lose to this guy and he could've just dreamcrushed me, but he was nice enough to draw into t8)
ID

2-1-1

::t8::

BWr stoneforge
r1: i get something ridiculous life chalice @ 1 and 2, mauler, and ftk his mirran crusader.
r2: he gets a plains and rolls me with stoneforge and batterskull.
r3: i get lucky again with chalice@1, moon, pyrokinesis, lord of shatterskull pass, and dragon. spent all my life to kill him quick.

::t4::
reanimator w/dark depths rematch
g1: lose die roll and get destroyed by iona
g2: chalice, tormod's crypt, and pyrexian metamorph hold everything down. LoSP/mauler win.
g3: chalice @ 1 and 2, crypt and metamorphed against iona. 2 dragons finish.

::t2::
We both draw and win $100.

Now for the BAD results (Literally worst tournament results i've ever had lol)
60+ man knightware tourney (6 rounds swiss/cut to top 8)

r1: protean hulk, revelark combo! Zomg, albeit the player manning the deck is one of the better players in socal, he chose a very random deck that does well @ beating hive mind.
g1: forest, birds, and progenitus kill me.
g2: i think he's playing bant, but wall of roots, body double, and infinite mogg fanatics let me know im wrong.

0-1

r2: BW stoneforge
g1: i get an early blood moon, and my mauler/ ftk give out too much aggro.
g2: he gets vial, some o-ring creature to take out my dragon, tidehollow schuller to take another dragon, and i just have revoker on Sofi. he gets stoneforge and jitte. then i rip anarchy

1-1

r3: merfolk
g1: mull to 5 :( the one threat i had gets fow'ed b4 i die.
g2: mulled once, but had 3 ftk, and pyrokinesis. all of them were counterred promptly b4 i died.

1-2

r4: hive mind (at this point, i know i've lost, so i kinda stopped trying that hard to win)
g1: continued mulling, but 3/4 turn emrakul would've beaten me regardless
g2: i moon, and destroy his monolith. moltensteel kills in time.
g3: i drop a magus, but he gets an island. i think turn 4 show n tell hive mind -> slaughter pact takes it. (pretty much the only way i beat hive mind is when it loses to itself lol)

1-3

r5: rw goblins
r1: he gets vial going too early, and destroys me!
r2: chalice @ 1, mauler and LoSP swiing for 9 soon after. he scoops.
r3: semi close. he gets vial. pyrokinesis buys me time. I tried to level up LoSP in time but i was 1 turn short and got overran. sadness.

1-4 (why am i still playing magic?!?!)

r6: belcher (i can win this right?)
g1: 1st turn 12 goblins
g2: mulled for a control piece and got chalice @0, HA! 1st turn 10 goblins. didn't draw into volcanic fallout so....

1-5...wow.

so what i've noticed from the 2 tourneys.
LoSP
+great against gwb(in any combination) just because of the shear size. because taurean mauler and LoSP are "must answer creatures" i kept finding one dying and the other winning the game. if both died, moltensteel was there, so overall, it's a great strat against stoneforge, maverick, etc.
-overall still slow. i assume tribal and zoo matchups to be harder. much too slow against goblins. also, i felt merfolk was a good matchup when i played hellbent DS. However, running this list, merfolk just outpaces it way too much. Daze is much more powerful against non hellbent.

Moltensteel
+ very strong finisher. I highly underrated it bc I didn't think that it was as fast as hellbent rakdos. I found myself spending lots of life in both tourneys tho, and getting moltensteel to finish matches confidently. with the mana you already have, and an auto 4 to 6 power from spending life, he turns the clock way up.
- I did get carried away with spending life, but none of my lost matches were bc of it. I'm officially a fan of moltensteel.

Sorry for the poor showing @knightware guys. I was expecting a lot of stoneforge, tes, high tide, and hive mind. that set me up to get rolled against goblin and merfolk. I don't think i could've ever won against protean hulk or hive mind, so the most glaring disappointment was the loss to belcher @ the very end. hope this helps anybody.

PS: what to do about hive mind?!?! i never knew it got so big! it's gaining steam 5-7 of them showed up at the tournie. Feels like a nightmare.

[Mr Pirakos]

PS: what to do about hive mind?!?! i never knew it got so big! it's gaining steam 5-7 of them showed up at the tournie. Feels like a nightmare.

Chalice @ 0

Edit: Actually I'm not sure. It would get auto-countered but you'd still have to copy it and still have to pay the upkeep-or-lose cost (I think). Have a Trinisphere in play to buy you time enough to...chaos warp?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, that doesn't work...

Hivemind says: "Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, each other player copies that spell. Each of those players may choose new targets for his or her copy."

The copies that Hive Mind's ability creates are created on the stack, so they're not "cast." Abilities that trigger when a player casts a spell [like Chalice of the Void ("Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost...")] won't trigger.



EDIT: Your edit about Trinisphere and 0-Mana spells lead me to a question:

When my opponent plays a suspended Spell like Ancestral Visions, Rift Bolt whatever and I cast a Trinisphere, and my opponents suspended spell resolve, and he has enough mana to theroatically pay the 3 mana, what happens? Is he forced to pay that 3 mana, or can he just refuse, and say I don't pay, leaving it forever in the exile-zone?

[Mr Pirakos]

The copies that Hive Mind's ability creates are created on the stack, so they're not "cast."

Yeah that too. I guess I don't really have a good anwer. Could you respond to the pact with a REB to destroy Hive Mind or would you still get the forced copy on the stack?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Nope, unfortunately you can't. Once triggered, abilities exist independently of their sources. Removing Hive Mind will not stop the ability =(

You could counter the Black Pact (Slaughter Pact), by targeting your creature with it, than destroying your creature in response with something else before the Pact resolve, so it wil fizzle and you don't have to pay that mana. But for the other pacts ... =/


I think, we are doomed against Hivemind, we are doomed against S&T decks, anyways.


What to do against Maverick or Stoneforge/Batterskull is the question for me. The more I play Shatterskull, the more I hate to pay that 1R for him. Why are red creatures so terribad??

[Octopusman]

Yeah that too. I guess I don't really have a good anwer. Could you respond to the pact with a REB to destroy Hive Mind or would you still get the forced copy on the stack?

It's already too late once they cast pact.

[Mr Pirakos]

When my opponent plays a suspended Spell like Ancestral Visions, Rift Bolt whatever and I cast a Trinisphere, and my opponents suspended spell resolve, and he has enough mana to theroatically pay the 3 mana, what happens? Is he forced to pay that 3 mana, or can he just refuse, and say I don't pay, leaving it forever in the exile-zone?

I think if you have the mana in your mana pool already you have to pay for it but if not you don't have to accrue any mana to pay for it. If you refuse I think it stays exiled indefinitely.

[mercs]

What to do against Maverick or Stoneforge/Batterskull is the question for me. The more I play Shatterskull, the more I hate to pay that 1R for him. Why are red creatures so terribad??

Since making the new list, I found out that if you can stabilize a big creature (namely LoSP) the stoneforge matchup isn't really bad. It's tricky bc a combination of mauler and LoSP is the best. yet, those are the creatures we don't want for the rest of the meta, lol.

If your meta is cluttered with stoneforge, I think you need a creature count of around 25 w/ about 18+ of them being decent physical threats (ftk, sloggs, losp, molten, etc). attrition is everything basically.

If your meta is mixed with tribal, zoo, bant, aggro loam, etc. you should just stick with what list you feel is best, and hope to dodge the stoneforge.What's the use of gaining one matchup if the rest fail, right? :P

[ForlornEgoist]

When my opponent plays a suspended Spell like Ancestral Visions, Rift Bolt whatever and I cast a Trinisphere, and my opponents suspended spell resolve, and he has enough mana to theroatically pay the 3 mana, what happens? Is he forced to pay that 3 mana, or can he just refuse, and say I don't pay, leaving it forever in the exile-zone?

3sphere will in-fact bump the suspended spell up to 3 as once the final Suspend counter is removed you're paying 0 to cast said spell which is an alternative cost that is subject to the same rulings as FoW/Daze/Pyrokinesis/etc. The person is not required to pay 3 if they do not wish however if they refuse to then the spell essentially fizzles.

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

3sphere will in-fact bump the suspended spell up to 3 as once the final Suspend counter is removed you're paying 0 to cast said spell which is an alternative cost that is subject to the same rulings as FoW/Daze/Pyrokinesis/etc. The person is not required to pay 3 if they do not wish however if they refuse to then the spell essentially fizzles.

Forlorn Egoist

Well, that wasn't exactly my question, I know that he don't need to pay the Suspend if he has no mana in pool, I just wrote it a bit unclear.

I meant it like this, my Opponent is in the upkeep, and the Suspend Trigger of a Rift Bolt would resolve... for whatever reason, my Opponent taps lets say 7 Mana in his pool, and let the trigger resolve, but refuses to pay that 3 Mana for that Rift Bolt. Can he do that? Or is he forced to pay that mana?


also: I don't think that Mauler is the solution for the Stoneforge / Maverick problem, maybe for Merfolks, but my board already hates Folk =P

18+ physical decent threads? how??? If I play 4 Sloggers and 4 Moltensteels I only have 2 Slots left for BIG beaters...

[mercs]

also: I don't think that Mauler is the solution for the Stoneforge / Maverick problem, maybe for Merfolks, but my board already hates Folk =P

18+ physical decent threads? how??? If I play 4 Sloggers and 4 Moltensteels I only have 2 Slots left for BIG beaters...

oops! idk why i wrote 18. i meant 16+. pretty much, if you can string 3-4 beaters consecutively, 1-2 usually stay unanswered and becomes a substantial threat. (i wouldn't suggest 4 sloggers though, but that's just imo)

mauler wasn't really the single "answer" for stonforge. it was more of the build itself. i ran a list with no trinisphere or seething song to up my threat count. I don't really recommend it, but I wanted to test how effective it would be.

Against both stoneforge decks, and pox, the high count of big bodies made a huge difference. although LoSP and mauler aren't great, the opponent still has to answer them. It's like if you face aggro loam and have to choose b/t killing kotr, goyf, terravore, and crusher (except not as drastic).

[ForlornEgoist]

Well, that wasn't exactly my question, I know that he don't need to pay the Suspend if he has no mana in pool, I just wrote it a bit unclear.

I meant it like this, my Opponent is in the upkeep, and the Suspend Trigger of a Rift Bolt would resolve... for whatever reason, my Opponent taps lets say 7 Mana in his pool, and let the trigger resolve, but refuses to pay that 3 Mana for that Rift Bolt. Can he do that? Or is he forced to pay that mana?

Ah, I see, I misunderstood your question.

If there exits mana in the opponents mana pool, then yes, they are required to draw upon said reserve to cast the spell. However they are not required to tap lands/mana sources to pay if the mana pool cannot pay the 3.

The only thing thats annoying with this is that there isn't an exact ruling I can direct you to so as to validate my answer. At least, none of which I'm aware.

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

So, M12 gives us Chandra, which does nothing for the deck, and is worse than Koth:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/td/rtyyfghjkfsiodjfgsiyujfhjioljkwer.jpg


and a card that combats Hivemind: XD

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/ftl/yfghiuikjfdsjkfhsukjfhswssss.jpg

None of them is playable here, or what do the others think???

[mercs]

So, M12 gives us Chandra, which does nothing for the deck, and is worse than Koth:


and a card that combats Hivemind: XD


None of them is playable here, or what do the others think???

sundial makes me so happy :)
Not only does it mess up hive mind plans a little, it also destroys stax too! ^^
Time to make my final fortune isoscepter deck! lol

I like the second ability on the chandra tho. For DS it's bad, but overall it could be nice.

[Masamune]

Could you post wich names is of these cards? Here doesn't show up the images yet :[

[NecroYawgmoth]

Could you post wich names is of these cards? Here doesn't show up the images yet :[

Chandra, the Firebrand 3R
Planeswalker - Chandra /// Mythic Rare
+1: Chandra, the Firebrand deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
-2: When you cast you next instant or sorcery spell this turn, copy that spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.
-6: Chandra, the Firebrand deals 6 damage to each of up to six target creatures and/or players.
Loyality 3

Sundial of the Infinite 2
Artifact /// Rare
1, {T}: End the turn. Activate this ability only during your turn.


--> random Note: I've just beaten Merfolk 2-0 YAY

[Mr Pirakos]

and a card that combats Hivemind: XD


It does make hivemind auto-lose. But what else is it good against (assuming Chalice @ 1)?

[Jonathan Alexander]

--> random Note: I've just beaten Merfolk 2-0 YAY

Idiot.

Also, neither of the cards is playable. But apparently Volcanic Fallout is quite strong, more so than Firespout.

[ThoSha]

Sundial will definitly go in some sideboards.

End of turn Brain-- No.

XD

[NecroYawgmoth]

Idiot.

Also, neither of the cards is playable. But apparently Volcanic Fallout is quite strong, more so than Firespout.

You are... =P

Other than that, I agee with you.

Koth is still better than any of the 3 Chandra's.

And yeah, IMO Fallout is also stronger than Firespout and Slagstorm...

Too bad that the only other "playable" instant damage spells to each creature are Starstorm and Sulfurous Blast =(

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been playing this:

3x Etched Champion
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Magus of the Moon
2x Lord of Shatterskull Pass
3x Arc-Slogger
3x Moltensteel Dragon

2x Koth of the Hammer
4x Seething Song

1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Batterskull
2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Chrome Mox
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Snow-Covered Mountain

I play both Firespout and Volcanic Fallout in my board.

--ABC

[NecroYawgmoth]

You play 4 Fallout AND 4 Firespout????

How is Koth nowadays...? It sucks that he can't protect himself, and the meta is getting more and more aggro I think. So is he really worth it, nowadays ?[We are good against Combo anyways]


Also, what is your opinion on Etched Champion? Is he playing good / semi-good?

I know, it is great with Equipment, but each creature is great with Equipment ;).

3 Mana seems like too much mana, for too less creature and it is also very reliant on Metalcraft, so I don't have that much trust in him, but I never tested him by myself.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No, 4 of each would be a terrible waste of space, I run 2x of each. Also, have you seen how many artifacts are in my list? It's not difficult getting Metalcraft. Also, being unblockable with any of the three equipment I run makes Etched Champion a, well, champ. Dude gets in there, and is also good defensively.

[Mr Pirakos]

No, 4 of each would be a terrible waste of space, I run 2x of each. Also, have you seen how many artifacts are in my list? It's not difficult getting Metalcraft. Also, being unblockable with any of the three equipment I run makes Etched Champion a, well, champ. Dude gets in there, and is also good defensively.

No Great Furnaces to further enable your metalcraft?

[ForlornEgoist]

Hey, guys. Just dropping by to give some insight into Red Sun's Zenith which I've been testing in my 4-of slot currently occupied by Flametongue Kavu.

Mostly such results have been positive. The original reason I was testing it was that my meta had a lot of mid-range decks which relied more heavily on that initial Mom/Bob/BoP/Hierarch or cards such as Clique/Sower/Trygon which my deck couldn't always deal with effectively. In such cases being able to cast that T1 Burn spell shined especially as it removed one of the great advantages such decks had over me. Even against Slivers (yes, I have Slivers in my meta) or Goblins T1/2 Burn proved quite necessary as it enabled me to continue with disruption thereafter rather than floundering to get a creature out first then attempting to catch up with disruption.

Against KotR/Terravore/Crusher/etc. RSZ didn't provide much gains over traditional DS removal but RSZ in my experience had less diminishing returns than FTK/Slogger/Board Sweep ('Spout/'Clasm/Fallout) as the damage wasn't fixed and I could thusly reach higher burn if necessary for bigger threats. If I were to use alternate burn for bigger threats I would say Shivan Meteor or Spitebellows are adequate, although giving the opponent 2 turns for Meteor worries me as the opponent then has time to either pummel you to death or dig for a counter.

Another card which I just found in my box that might be worth considering for aggro MU's is Aether Flash. Albeit it kills off Revoker/Magus/Simian but lets face it how relevant are these three against decks like Merfolk or Goblins in comparison to Flash? Although sometimes it did become more relevant to have FTK over RSZ as FTK gave me a 2-for-1 since I got a creature as well, I think given the right meta you could justify flat out burn over FTK.

I'm still doing more testing and as I said in this or another thread I will be moving to a new city with a much more competitive meta so hopefully I can grind out more tests with DS now.

Also, the new Chandra: Seriously? After all this time you finally give us her in a more reasonable mana slot and you continue to make her abilities the jankiest of all planeswalkers. Fabulous. P.S. its nice to have Hive Mind tech. but as I'm sure most of us don't have this as a common MU I would personally rather get randomly blown out by it than mess up my SB to deal with a less-than-mainstream deck. Just me, though.

Forlorn Egoist

[Greenpoe]

Are the hellions not good enough as FTK alternates? (Caldera Hellion or Volcano Hellion) Volcano Hellion can at least take out 'goyf or KoTR unlike FTK, and a 6/5 for 4 (along with a huge life payment) isn't too terrible.

[ForlornEgoist]

The issue with these cards are as follows:

Caldera Hellion:
1) For it to survive it needs to Devour at least 1 creature which, contrary to the 18+ creatures we run, is not always readily available.
2) 3RR isn't always available for us to cast, particularly against aggro decks or instances when we have Moon effects on the field. Often times the case becomes where we need to cast our sweepers immediately rather than hang onto them.

Volcano Hellion's issue is that against decks like Goblins or Merfolk taking X damage can effectively be like giving them a free combat step which is never ideal. In an average game KotR gets to be at bare minimum a 6/6 or 7/7. 2RR and 6-7 life to kill 1 creature is highly inefficient, particularly when you consider how much damage we can take from Tomb/Moltensteel alone. The lifeloss adds up fast. I would honestly much rather fall back on Lord of SP/Slogger and Anarchy to deal with 'Goyf/KotR than use 1 card that says "Cast me when its too late," and another that says "I'll kill that KotR in exchange for essentially winning the game for the opponent." Its also unreasonable to describe it as a 2RR/X life for a 6/5 because even if our life total becomes 6 after it ETB 5 is barely within our average accessible mana, let alone 6+ even if you account for Song/SSG/Mox. Only in the mid-late game can we access that much mana, and even then they've most likely aquired enough (creatures, fixing such as Top/Sylvan) and/or cantrips where killing 1 creatures does little to affect them.

I honestly would prefer a FTK as its only real downside being that it has a toughness of 2 and requires a target, neither of which are incredibly detrimental to its use. Granted it can't kill KotR but neither of the suggested 2 can adequately either.

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

A resolved Caldera Hellion can wipe the opposing board against Folk / Goblins, and we can sac Magus/Revoker anyways, because they would die. Still Slogger seems like the better choice, as it can schock the opponent if needed, something that Hellion can't do.

Volcano Hellion is like the stupidest all-in card I ever saw. You'll lose so many games with that ability. Also it has huge antisynergy with Moltensteel Dragon which is a staple for this deck IMO.

BTW, I am thinking of maindecking Firespouts and put Revokers in the board. What do you think? Good idea, overall? [why is FTK a 4/2 =(]

[ForlornEgoist]

A resolved Caldera Hellion can wipe the opposing board against Folk / Goblins, and we can sac Magus/Revoker anyways, because they would die. Still Slogger seems like the better choice, as it can schock the opponent if needed, something that Hellion can't do.
Yea, but you're still essentially paying 3RR and a creature to do what a Volcanic Fallout or Firespout.


BTW, I am thinking of maindecking Firespouts and put Revokers in the board. What do you think? Good idea, overall?
I think its most important that Revoker be including in the 75. MD or SB is a meta call. My meta is more aggro-intensive with several control and 1-2 dedicated combo so I can easily justify it in the SB. If your meta has more mid-late range control and combo than it does aggro MD Revoker is easy to justify as well. MD Firespout is still completely reasonable as well in place of big burn like FTK as it deals with swarms which is always a great out MD esp. since few decks are prepared to deal with our hate package game 1 whereas we shut off counters (esp. Counterbalance and MM).


Why is FTK a 4/2 =(

Because then DS would be have the ability to be a Tier 1 deck, every meta would become flooded with DS, Wizards would call 3sphere/Chalice OP and ban then, then us lucky few would cease to get 1st place at our local tourneys. :tongue:

Forlorn Egoit

[ForlornEgoist]

A resolved Caldera Hellion can wipe the opposing board against Folk / Goblins, and we can sac Magus/Revoker anyways, because they would die.
Yea, but you're still essentially paying 3RR and a creature to do what a Volcanic Fallout or Firespout can do. If you have a chump creature to sac like SSG or Magus then its great that you swept the board and still have a 4+/4+ on the board but otherwise its weak.


BTW, I am thinking of maindecking Firespouts and put Revokers in the board. What do you think? Good idea, overall?
I think its most important that Revoker be included in the 75. MD or SB is a meta call. My meta is more aggro-intensive with several control and 1-2 dedicated combo so I can easily justify it in the SB. If your meta has more mid-late range control and combo than it does aggro MD Revoker is easy to justify as well. MD Firespout is still completely reasonable as well in place of big burn like FTK as it deals with swarms which is always a great out MD esp. since few decks are prepared to deal with our hate package game 1 whereas we shut off counters (esp. Counterbalance and MM).

I've literally done no testing with either of these cards (merely speculating) so if someone has done testing with them by all means let us know.


Why is FTK a 4/2 =(

Because if it were something like a 4/5 or 5/5 DS would be have the ability to be a Tier 1 deck, every meta would become flooded with DS, Wizards would call 3sphere/Chalice OP and ban then, then us lucky few would cease to get 1st place at our local tourneys. :tongue:

Aether Flash. I don't know why but I like it so until I do more extensive testing I'm going to keep posting about it to keep it fresh on everybodies minds.

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

Because if it were something like a 4/5 or 5/5 DS would be have the ability to be a Tier 1 deck, every meta would become flooded with DS, Wizards would call 3sphere/Chalice OP and ban then, then us lucky few would cease to get 1st place at our local tourneys. :tongue:



Where is the problem?
W got Stoneforge Mystic, G got Tarmogoyf, B got Dark Confidant and U got Vendillion Clique. Where is the R "strongest" MVP-Creature?

Yeah, I guess people will say Magus of the Moon now, but the above 4 are good on its own against nearly every opponent [besides some strange exceptions like Confi against Burn], and Magus just isn't.


About my meta... dunno. I just want to have the lets say "best possible all-around configuration" for an unknown meta. [yeah, thats kinda weird for a meta-deck]

[ForlornEgoist]

Even considering my highly aggro meta if I were to play it in a larger, unknown meta I would still most likely opt to keep the Revokers in the SB. The reason for this is that DS can easily steal a good majority of Game 1's simply because most decks are ill-equipped to deal with our disruption package of 4 CotV/4 3sphere/8 Moon effects. All of these are universal forms of disruption whereas Revoker is more of a precision-based disruption. Albeit it can be an allstar against control/combo but as it is we already have a decent MU against decks such as these. An issue I've had when MDing Revoker is that it required me to sacrifice creature density for added disruption which, especially when used against bad MU's such as Goblins/Merfolk, gave them adequate time to recover and steal back the victory. TBH Revoker has enough targets in Legacy where its perfectly reasonable to keep him in the MD. The question you just have to answer yourself is if your more comfortable packing greater aggression Game 1 (such as me) or more disruption.

Whether in MD or SB Revoker is an incredible addition for the deck. I'm just of the opinion that, just like his predecessor Pithing Needle, a superfluity of targets does not warrant an addition MD. Remember that SB's exist so as to offer you a chance to improve the MU and answer your opponents cards. Revoker, like Needle, has dozens of cards it can answer but a SB Revoker allows you to ask whether such cards need to be answered or if current/other disruption is better. Of course everyone (including myself) can provide a scenario where MD Revoker saved them the game, but its also important to give equal attention to all the games where you drew a Revoker only to not play it, or to play it simply to have a blocker, or where you named it on cards that were irrelevant against you.

Like I said, it just boils down to preference.

Forlorn Egoist

[NecroYawgmoth]

Played in Iserlohn last week [61 players], placed 18th... finished 4-2, lost the first two rounds.

0-2 NO-RUG
0-2 Team America [both games mulliganing to 5, additionaly red manascrew G1, Jace TMS G2]
2-0 Affinity
2-1 Goblins
2-0 Dredge
2-0 Team America

My list was the following:

Screw
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Beats
4 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Flametongue Kavu

Mana
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
8 Snow-Covered Mountain

//Sideboard
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
2 Slagstorm
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Tormod's Crypt

Not much of a report, because I am too lazy, and I think I have nothing to optimize at my build atm. Maybe I kick the Veins again, maybe not. [70%yes] I am playing a White Chalice Aggro version atm anyways, because there I can actually play GOOD creatures. Still hoping that Innistrad will print something good for this deck.:rolleyes:

[Octopusman]

Played in Iserlohn last week [61 players], placed 18th... finished 4-2, lost the first two rounds.

0-2 NO-RUG
0-2 Team America [both games mulliganing to 5, additionaly red manascrew G1, Jace TMS G2]
2-0 Affinity
2-1 Goblins
2-0 Dredge
2-0 Team America

My list was the following:

Screw
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Beats
4 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Arc-Slogger
3 Flametongue Kavu

Mana
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
8 Snow-Covered Mountain

//Sideboard
4 Volcanic Fallout
3 Shattering Spree
2 Anarchy
2 Slagstorm
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Tormod's Crypt

Not much of a report, because I am too lazy, and I think I have nothing to optimize at my build atm. Maybe I kick the Veins again, maybe not. [70%yes] I am playing a White Chalice Aggro version atm anyways, because there I can actually play GOOD creatures. Still hoping that Innistrad will print something good for this deck.:rolleyes:

Congrats on your placement.

The good news is that with that list, I feel you could have won the NO-RUG and Team America matches. Fantastic!

Are you able to elaborate on the Dredge match at all? The crypts just get there? As a Dredge player as well, I'm surprised to hear the crypts have been enough.

Was the decision to run slogger and FTK come just because there were a lot of people so you expected to play lots of merfolk/tribal/agro?

I think your results are really promising for folks who like this deck but have always wished they could play non-Hellbent while still primarily being Red versus Brown.

Congrats again,

[Octopusman]

I just re-read some of the opening post.
It seems to dismiss Priest of Urabrask. I suggest a third look or for other players to comment on their experiences with it. It's fair to say that it is probably a lot worse in a deck without equipment.

Does anyone else have more to say about Priest of Urabrask? I have been really impressed with it since the moment I started testing and running it.
I play Hellbent and found that it helps my consistency, which the Hellbent list suffers from perhaps more than other lists. Not so good for non-Hellbent lists?

Thoughts?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Of course I could have won, I mean... ...it's me =D -> Team America isn't even a bad MU imo... But you know that random-inconstance-issues this deck has.

About Dredge: I don't find that MU that hard. We have quad Trinisphere which prevents them playing spells, also Chalice against Breaktrough, Study and all permanent outlets, additionally Revoker to stop these discard outlets, and 8 moons to kill their mana production. I played only 2 Crypts in the past, and just 2-0ed Dredge [post 575 for report]. Most of the Dredge players aren't that good, and can't handle all that stuff that DS already has main. Also I am a kinda experienced Dredge-Player and know how to hate the deck ;)

Slogger is there because the build needs to loke more aggroish and fast killing without hellbent. Slogger removes some of he opponents interactions. They can't simply drop that utility-creature, and they must alway be aware of Quad-Shock you, you're dead. Next card you drew would've been removal?...too bad.

FTK is just because I am rather disapointed with Shatterskull as he is too manahungry, and I just wanted something that can possibly kill early Goyfs, Merfolks or other annoying stuff. He just seems to be the best choice outside Hellbent-Critters. Even if he 2 for 1s, he gives that deck some kind of card advantage, which is huge for a deck with actual no card advantage. =P

About OP-Post: Well It's kinda huge [even MUs are missing, but I have no desire/motivation to do it], and stuff I have written is personal experience, and I also PMed with other Sourcers and stuff, so it's the colaborate opinion mixed with personal testings. If you like Priest, feel free to test him, but he seems only good in an equipment 4+ build for me, and I have no space for Equipments or a creature with actually no abilities. Also consider, that we already play 12 2/2 or 2/1 creatures [Magus, SSG, Revoker].

[ForlornEgoist]

How have the 4 Moltensteels been? Although I seem to be part of the ever-thinning field of players who thinks Shatterskull is amazing my thought when dropping him has always been "Great, I can now negate their 'Goyf/Merfolk," rather than "Aw snapz, I win now," which is what a beater should be for this deck. Moltensteel, however, each and every time I've resolved him thus far has warranted the 2nd reaction, particularly with Jitte equip. *swoons* Of course, I swoon at any creature in this deck with a Jitte equip, but thats beside the point. :tongue:

Has the 4-of been detrimental to you, or have you found that maximizing the chances of drawing 1 has been worth the risk of drawing a 2nd and not being able to cast it?

P.S. I've been testing Aether Flash to tribal aggro and am having mostly poor results thus far. In general the problem I've found is that if I can resolve it T1-3 (sometimes 4) it becomes an auto-win. Any later and it becomes more and more dead. Against Goblins because they lack Lords its fine to cast later but Merfolk gets a Lord on the field at absolute latest T3 which is enough to negate Flash. Albeit Flash has proven somewhat effective against other decks, but not enough that I would really say its worth it over more traditional mass removal. I plan on doing some real-life tourney tests this coming Tues. rather than goldfish and Station. I'll get back to you on my results.

Forlorn Egoist

[guidogulp]

Recently, I've been testing a slightly changed DS: cutting trinis for revokers. As I don't see a combo-oriented metagame, the reasoning behind this decision is what everyone thinks about trini, that is a lousy card in a mid-late game, and useless in numbers. This obligues to put 3/4 in MD so you can play it T1 or T2.

Revoker (though I was never convinced about playing them before) on the other hand is, at least, a 2/1 that carries equip. The testing I've done so far threw better results with this change.

I look forward for any opinion !!

The decklist:

4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Beats
3 Moltensteel Dragon
3 LoSP
4 Flametongue Kavu

2 Umezawa's jitte
3 SoBaM

Mana
3 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

[ForlornEgoist]

Okay, so I just wrote out this uber long post but I had to hit the back tab like a champ so I'm going to summarize since I don't have the patience to rewrite:

Went 0-4 tonight (Elves/Thresh/D&T/Stax) and I had some serious reconsiderations for the deck. Firstly, here was the list I played:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Chrome Mox
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Seething Song

2 Blood Moon

2 Taurean Mauler
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Moltensteel Dragon
3 Arc Slogger

3 Shattering Spree
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Volcanic Fallout
2 Taurean Mauler
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs

I went in expecting tribal, which I found, but unfortunately I had such an epic fail tonight that I didn't get to face any of them. Here are the changes I made after playing tonight:

-2 Mauler -3 Slogger +2 Batterskull +1 Moltensteel +1 Blood Moon +1 Lord of S/P
-4 Fallout -2 Mauler +3 Anarchy +3 Silent Arbiter

Now, onto my observations as per this deck.

Something I'm beginning to notice with more aggressive metas is that Moon effects are beginning to feel as if they've fallen out of favor. Although this deck has some amazing strengths and can recover
from Moon, on occassion I have found myself struggling to choose between screwing an opponents mana base and hoping to topdeck mana of my own, or to not cast the Moon so as to retain the ability to cast my higher cc spells. Unlike the Hellbent version I/we run a much higher avg. cc (3R/3RR/4PP/etc.) and have begun to move away from the 2R curve Hellbent has tried to focus on.

It pains me to remove such a solid lock piece but I am currently considering testing the more artifact-heavy build of this deck. When I look at all the times I have been screwed because of mana I cringe. We have a solid suite of artifact cards to choose from, and with the printing of Moltensteel I think it might be viable.

I haven't done much research on this build, so I'm mostly pulling this from scratch. Suggestions appreciated. Again, like I said, I'm attempting a non-Moon build, so if you're going to offer suggestions please keep this in mind. Also, although I will welcome critique or arguments for Moon effects I would appreciate it if you avoid flamming me about such. I have played this deck for several years and have helped a fair amount with this thread so I understand the strengths of Moon quite adequately. I'm just trying to develop a new possible evolution of the deck that might remove some inconsistencies.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6-8 Mountain

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Mox Opal
3 Batterskull
0-2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
2-4 Etched Champion
0-4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Silent Arbiter
3-4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Covetous Dragon

Like I said, its a very rough first draft. Since this list can more readily cast Batterskull/Covetous I consider Lord of Shatterskull Pass to be unnecessary. In this list I also consider FTK to be moot with the 4 MD Arbiter to limit their attacking abilities as well as the 8 fliers/Pro-color Champion although burn may be SB material.

Trinisphere > Lodestone in this instance because I'm already curving up pretty high and that extra 1 on the Lodestone would most likely put Covetous/Batterskull into the the "uncastable," range for most of the game.

The Jittes could easily become any equipment. I'm fond of its utility however SoBaM or SoWaP may be preferrable.

Anyway, yeah, this is a start. Hopefully we can make me feel less emo about the prospects of this deck (esp. since I've foiled mine out :P).

Forlorn Egoist

[mercs]

sorry for the bad luck! from my testing, LoSP and mauler aren't that good unless they're in a no song and/or no trini list where you keep your threat count high (i think i wrote 16+ last time) that way, stoneforge becomes easier. tribal definitely does get weaker that way though, so those 2 creatures prob arent best for ur meta. hope ur new list goes well! what type of meta do you think will be best for it?

[NecroYawgmoth]

ouch... 0-4 is kinda bad... I am sorry for you =(

Well... I think the Moon-effects are the last things you want to cut. They are the only thing that keeps this somehow dead deck alive, because Dragon Stompy relies on its auto-win cards. If you remove them, you could just play another colored Chalice Aggro, with better creatures. Green has Order->Progenitus, Tarmogoyf, Thrun, Garruk - White has Baneslayer Angel, Mirran Crusader, Stoneforge, Elspeth for example.

The question is: What has red Stompy to offer when you don't play Moons? Maybe I am forgetting something, and you can enlighten me here, but I don't see anything... =(

[Octopusman]

Yeah that's too bad.
He did say that he wanted to take the deck in an artifact direction. It's interesting. It looks like even in a seething song list that the curve seems a little high with the 4 covetous, 3 batterskull, 4 arbiter, 3-4 moltensteel. Although, you did say that you wanted to improve mana consistency and your list might address that.

I also feel that etched champion can be an mvp but batterskull aside he works best with cranial plating or other. I don't feel you can seriously consider batterskull as something to equip so with two champion and only two other equipment I'm questioning it.
I'm curious to hear how it works out, but since I'm a much different DS player so I'm looking forward to hearing about your success. Good luck with it.

What's funny is that I'm finding that Legacy gets hurt badly by Moon effects right now. With this deck, perhaps you win some and you lose some. We'd all love to see the deck become more consistent but it's one of the risks that comes with running it in its current states in my opinion. At least post board it can be possible to improve the matchups that aren't hurt by moon. Matchups that are hurt by moon are often an auto-win like necroyawg said.


Dragon Stompy is not the only deck that has so many different experimental directions, experiences cyclical periods of the same information being rehashed and retried, or feelings of stagnation in development.

I'm very excited to continue working on and using this deck (can't wait to see what they print next actually). Although, I do feel that it can currently be very successful.

I imagine a ven diagram. Cards that win the game fast or enable a fast win or furthering of the gameplan which is screw and win, cards that almost always win the game when resolved, and cards that are effective against most decks in the format. If it doesn't fall into one of those categories, maybe there's a better card for that slot (cards like Magus of the Moon might fall into the part of the diagram that is a mix of almost always wins when resolved against the right deck - welcome to Dragon Stompy - and cards that are effective against most decks in the format).
When boarding, you take out the cards that are least effective against the opponent and bring in cards that have the same effect and take out ones that are now dead. Sounds like common sense but envisioning the puzzle can make decisions easier (what cards in my deck are fantastic against which matchups? Which matchups are these cards dead or extremely weak? What cards can I bring in from the board to severely hurt my opponent's deck and which can I can take out?). These are the basics of the deck. As better cards are printed and the format grows in popularity, Dragon Stompy is becomes more of a archetype hater than a metagame hater. Focus on always being able to assemble a list of 60 between main and board that can disarm a various strategy as best as possible.
This kind of thinking is essential if you're going to pilot this deck.

[Kinderschreck]

I'm still no fan of the Flametongue Kavu.
I had tested them and never could remove anything with this.

My equipment of choice is Sword of Vengeance.
Sounds a bit nuts but is nice to get your creatures pumped.
Mostly DS loses because it has no evasion and your creatures run against the next goofy.
Works also nice with your mauler when it has become a beast. ;P

My list at the moment:

10 mountain
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
3 Arc Slogger
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Taurean Mauler
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Vengeance
2 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song

[ForlornEgoist]

Hm, Sword of Vengeance doesn't sound too bad. Albeit it doesn't have lifelink like Batterskull but it also doesn't require a Song to cast. I may consider testing it.

Forlorn Egoist

[Kinderschreck]

I'm highly against Batterskull.
In my decklist I want hellbent, which is hard to reach when I try to play a 4/4 creature for 5 mana.
He is overrated.
The Sword has nearly everything you want. StP and other spotremoval aren't your problem (chalice) so protection is only needed as evasion. The sword gives your creature more than just one evasion effect.
And with vigilance you can even block, what is quit a problem sometimes, that you haven't any blockers.

[jancz]

2 Cards of question
1.Dismember
I assume flametongue kavu is used in this slot? I am just sort of in aw of the power of this spell. I wonder how often the extra toughness comes into play. It can also be used as combat tricks.

2. Grafted Wargear
After the initial investment you don't have to pay anymore. It will turn something as lowly as Gathan Raiders into a goyf slayer. The prospect of having a 7/6 Moltensteel on turn 2 is pretty awesome.

[jancz]

Well I have a tournament Result so I will double post since this is new content.
Went 3-2 in my first legacy tourney ever. Just short of the top 8 in a 24 man tourney
First off the deck

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Gathan Raiders
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Moltensteel Dragon
2 Arc-Slogger

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast

Match 1: Celaphid Bfast
Game 1: Lead in with moon and trini effects. He plays Cephalid Illusionist but I don't exactly know what hes playing. I beat him before he can combo off

Side in -nothing
Game 2:Failing to side in anything proved deadly as he pulled his combo off when I had him at 1 life. I was too cautious in attacking with a magus of the moon and that cost me the game

Side in- Revokers and Tormods
Side Out-Some creatures and some moon effects.
Game 3: He combos off turn like 3. He managed to get more basics then I thought so a trini just made him delay his combo a bit
1-2

Match 2: Elfball
Game 1: He combos off with no trouble. I think I lead in t1 Blood moon and he goes t1 forest lanowar. It makes me sad.

Side in - 4X Revoker 4X Flametongue
Side out - Moon Effects

Game 2: I hose him with Chalice and beat with a songed slogger.

Game 3:In what will be my favorite win of the day he manages to get some elfs out and then plays Summoner's Pact. I plop a revoker down naming the elfs he needs to use to pay for the pact and loses.

2-1

Match 3:Folk A)
Game 1: Again I drop like a first turn moon smiling. He drops island curse catcher go. I staked way too much on the moon and promptly get beat to death.

Sideboard in - 3X Red Elemental Blasts 4X Flametongue
Sideboard out - Moon effects

Game 2: some early creatures deal some damage. He swings with a coralhelm knocking me down to like 10 and I swing back with an unanwsered Rakdos pit dragon I get in for 14 with a song.

Game 3: Usual back and forth. I run out of cards to slog a leveled coralhelm to death. Im sitting on 1 health with a flametongue and slogger out. I have 18 cards in library and he is at 10 with a mutavault to block and coralhelm for the win. I fold and I am sad.

1-2

Match 4: Hive Mind?
Game 1: Mull to 5 and sadly lead with a magus of the moon. I get out a trini and some chalices and he is never able to find the pieces. I beat him to death with 2 magus of the moons.

Side out 3 Blood Moon
Side in 3 Red Elemental Blast

Game 2: I get more chalices and again he just never plays show and tell. Dunno If he realizes he can play pacts into chalice and still win but hey.

2-0

Match 5: Merfolk
Game 1: Very similar to Match 3 except I win. I lead with a moon and /cry when he goes Island lulz.

Sideboard in - 3X Red Elemental Blasts 4X Flametongue
Sideboard out - Moon effects

Game 2: Surprisingly he runs some standstills and gets 2 off. I get buried in CA and die

Out like 3 random creatures
In 3 Revokers for Vial

Game 3:He keeps a hand with 2 mutavaults and a wasteland. Somehow the one magus I left in my deck shows up and some how I put the hurt on.

2-1

So not bad for my first turn out.
General things
- Of course 4 out of 5 decks I play are mono colored. Where was the junk and zoo?
- it was a great time and I love legacy.
- Merfolk is fun to play against with stompy. Its never a blowout one way or the other.

Creature Review
Arc-slogger was a god. When I drew him against the tribal matchups he blew up faces shoulda packed 3

Moltensteel never really saw too much play. He got countered when I tried to play @4 which hurt but it was against

Lord of shatterskull appeared once in the whole tourney to a "What even is that card?" before getting promptly dismembered in a merfolk matchup. Wish I saw him more so I could evaluate better

Rakdos Pit Dragon - He was bomby when he needed to be. I honestly would NOT run him without the gathan raiders.

Gathan Raiders- Never wowed me but were a solid card.

Sideboard Review
Red Elemental Blasts I faced a lot of blue so these were used a bunch. Wish I had brought my 4th

FTK - Great against a tribal match up....but that is already known. 4 was the right answer.

tormods - In the one match up I should have used it , it never came up. I went expecting dredge and reanimator and got neither. Dunno if "Have it and not need it" is better then "Need it but not have it" for these 4 slots.

Revoker. - I like this guy. He shuts off so much.

[Octopusman]

Well I have a tournament Result so I will double post since this is new content.
Went 3-2 in my first legacy tourney ever. Just short of the top 8 in a 24 man tourney
First off the deck

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Gathan Raiders
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
2 Moltensteel Dragon
2 Arc-Slogger

4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast

Match 1: Celaphid Bfast
Game 1: Lead in with moon and trini effects. He plays Cephalid Illusionist but I don't exactly know what hes playing. I beat him before he can combo off

Side in -nothing
Game 2:Failing to side in anything proved deadly as he pulled his combo off when I had him at 1 life. I was too cautious in attacking with a magus of the moon and that cost me the game

Side in- Revokers and Tormods
Side Out-Some creatures and some moon effects.
Game 3: He combos off turn like 3. He managed to get more basics then I thought so a trini just made him delay his combo a bit
1-2

Match 2: Elfball
Game 1: He combos off with no trouble. I think I lead in t1 Blood moon and he goes t1 forest lanowar. It makes me sad.

Side in - 4X Revoker 4X Flametongue
Side out - Moon Effects

Game 2: I hose him with Chalice and beat with a songed slogger.

Game 3:In what will be my favorite win of the day he manages to get some elfs out and then plays Summoner's Pact. I plop a revoker down naming the elfs he needs to use to pay for the pact and loses.

2-1

Match 3:Folk A)
Game 1: Again I drop like a first turn moon smiling. He drops island curse catcher go. I staked way too much on the moon and promptly get beat to death.

Sideboard in - 3X Red Elemental Blasts 4X Flametongue
Sideboard out - Moon effects

Game 2: some early creatures deal some damage. He swings with a coralhelm knocking me down to like 10 and I swing back with an unanwsered Rakdos pit dragon I get in for 14 with a song.

Game 3: Usual back and forth. I run out of cards to slog a leveled coralhelm to death. Im sitting on 1 health with a flametongue and slogger out. I have 18 cards in library and he is at 10 with a mutavault to block and coralhelm for the win. I fold and I am sad.

1-2

Match 4: Hive Mind?
Game 1: Mull to 5 and sadly lead with a magus of the moon. I get out a trini and some chalices and he is never able to find the pieces. I beat him to death with 2 magus of the moons.

Side out 3 Blood Moon
Side in 3 Red Elemental Blast

Game 2: I get more chalices and again he just never plays show and tell. Dunno If he realizes he can play pacts into chalice and still win but hey.

2-0

Match 5: Merfolk
Game 1: Very similar to Match 3 except I win. I lead with a moon and /cry when he goes Island lulz.

Sideboard in - 3X Red Elemental Blasts 4X Flametongue
Sideboard out - Moon effects

Game 2: Surprisingly he runs some standstills and gets 2 off. I get buried in CA and die

Out like 3 random creatures
In 3 Revokers for Vial

Game 3:He keeps a hand with 2 mutavaults and a wasteland. Somehow the one magus I left in my deck shows up and some how I put the hurt on.

2-1

So not bad for my first turn out.
General things
- Of course 4 out of 5 decks I play are mono colored. Where was the junk and zoo?
- it was a great time and I love legacy.
- Merfolk is fun to play against with stompy. Its never a blowout one way or the other.

Creature Review
Arc-slogger was a god. When I drew him against the tribal matchups he blew up faces shoulda packed 3

Moltensteel never really saw too much play. He got countered when I tried to play @4 which hurt but it was against

Lord of shatterskull appeared once in the whole tourney to a "What even is that card?" before getting promptly dismembered in a merfolk matchup. Wish I saw him more so I could evaluate better

Rakdos Pit Dragon - He was bomby when he needed to be. I honestly would NOT run him without the gathan raiders.

Gathan Raiders- Never wowed me but were a solid card.

Sideboard Review
Red Elemental Blasts I faced a lot of blue so these were used a bunch. Wish I had brought my 4th

FTK - Great against a tribal match up....but that is already known. 4 was the right answer.

tormods - In the one match up I should have used it , it never came up. I went expecting dredge and reanimator and got neither. Dunno if "Have it and not need it" is better then "Need it but not have it" for these 4 slots.

Revoker. - I like this guy. He shuts off so much.

Hey grats on your finish!
It is exciting to know that you can perform even better with this deck if you get luckier with match ups and experience (so you would have top 8 if you attacked with a magus?).
Your post is encouraging because I think it shows DS can have game against mono color.

It's also nice to see that sometimes Hive Mind doesn't just resolve show and tell and win. DS can race it which is important because there's not much else that can be done. :( Still seems like a tough match up.

Your tech against green pact was hi-larious.

Personally, I would try to find room for gravehate. Not having it definitely hurt me in my last tourney (although all meta are different, right?).

I have some questions. Assume you brought in all Kavu against merfolk? Did you then have 4 FTK, 2 arc slogger, 2 moltensteel dragon, 3 R:PD, and 3 lord of shatterskull pass? If so, 14 cards that were CMC4 or higher, did you ever feel like you were too stuffed with cards you couldn't cast (perhaps due to wasteland?)?
Interested to hear your thoughts here.

After your elf game, I'm sure you're riding high on the Revoker utility. I also run a full set main deck and have never been unenthusiastic about its performance.
For those decks running 2 or less, perhaps reconsider. It is pro against so much (learning to love the mana producing non-land targeting minus targeting lands - Revoker on LED is hot).

[SNEJ]

Game 3:In what will be my favorite win of the day he manages to get some elfs out and then plays Summoner's Pact. I plop a revoker down naming the elfs he needs to use to pay for the pact and loses.



Is this legal? I thought mana elves had mana abilities who were not influenced by Phyrexian Revoker...

[Maveric78f]

Is this legal? I thought mana elves had mana abilities who were not influenced by Phyrexian Revoker...

It's legal. Compare the text of Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. Look also at Cursed Totem, Damping Matrix, Null Rod and Linvala, Keeper of Silence.

[Hopo]

Is this legal? I thought mana elves had mana abilities who were not influenced by Phyrexian Revoker...

Well, what does the card say? Does it say that you can use mana abilities as normal?

[jancz]

I have some questions. Assume you brought in all Kavu against merfolk? Did you then have 4 FTK, 2 arc slogger, 2 moltensteel dragon, 3 R:PD, and 3 lord of shatterskull pass? If so, 14 cards that were CMC4 or higher, did you ever feel like you were too stuffed with cards you couldn't cast (perhaps due to wasteland?)?
Interested to hear your thoughts here.

The one deck didn't have wastelands that I can remember.

The other deck ran wastelands but I didn't see much of them. I got lucky with my draws (Think I had 5 mountains out at some point). I really think seething song helps you a lot in getting into those creatures. Folk seems like it takes a while to get rolling and if they don't have an answer for a songed slogger you take the game.



(so you would have top 8 if you attacked with a magus?). Maybe? Cause if I did I would have went with one win into the second match and who knows what would have happened there.

[SNEJ]

Well, what does the card say? Does it say that you can use mana abilities as normal?

My bad, i assumed it had the same wording as pithing needle :tongue:

[Shax]

Does anyone think Slash Panther has potential here? I love Dragon Stompy and it can wreck depending on what the metagame is. Seems really good getting a Trinisphere and Slash Panther beatdown. As a plus you can pay for it's Phyrexian Red.

Also, Deus of Calamity is really good in Dragon Stompy. Really good.

Does Summoning Trap have a place here? Most of the time my turn one threat is forced. Would be nice to drop Summoning Trap and rip a Deus or Slogger or Magus to win anyways.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Slasher Panther:
The issues with this card are quite obvious. Firstly, the deck can't always reach 5 mana consistently even in Song builds. Albeit the phyrexian life makes it slightly more viable as it can be cast off of 2 Sol lands but this is neglible in comparison to the 2nd issue: utility. A 4/2 body is not going to be able to kill larger threats or survive from an exchange with minor threats. As for the "Haste," factor, our deck doesn't really want or need Haste. 3sphere/Moon/CotV/Lodestone are all designed to deny the ability of an opponent to cast spells, thus we can afford to wait an extra turn to attack.

Also to consider are the other creatures whom Panther must contend for the 5cc spot: Arc Slogger/Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs/Covetous Dragon/Moltensteel Dragon are just a few examples. All have big bodies than can kill Goyf or provide a blocker; Slogger/Kazuul gives us utilities which our deck can benefit from greatly (never-ending stream of blockers from Kazuul or removal from Slogger) while Moltensteel/Covetous give us evasion that can easily steal victories for us.

Ultimately, Panther just isn't the most viable slot for the deck.

@ Deus of Calamity:

The only time our deck can ever really get RRRRR (short of Song) is if our deck is in a position late-game where we're sitting on an abundance of resources (of which our deck wants to avoid the mid-late game). Albeit you might be able to make him viable in a deck more centered around Koth, but he still requires you build around him somewhat (upping mountain count, 3-4 Koth, etc.). I'm not saying he can't be a viable option, its just in my theorycraft I really don't see how you would optimize our deck to suit him and not sacrifice our decks core strengths.

@ Summoning Trap:

Its definitely a meta card IMO. If your meta is rampant with counters, I don't see why this couldn't be beneficial to you (particularly if you're running a build with high cc creatures such as Slogger that you can't always cast immediately) but our deck kind of already negates a vast majority of counterspells: Mental Misstep/Daze (to an extent)/Spell Snare/ Spell Pierce has seen less play since MM printing/ Counterspell sees most play in Landstill, We curve out higher than Counterbalance, and 3sphere can negate FoW. Overall I would say its not worth it to lose 4 spots in our deck simply to negate 1-2 counters. Of course, my meta is more aggro-heavy right now, so counters aren't much of an issue.

Like I said, its not a horrible idea but, like DS itself, depends highly on your meta to be viable. Although, after just rereading your post (and likewise editing my reply :p) it does have synergy with "cheating," Deus into play.

Forlorn Egoist

[Octopusman]

Does anyone think Slash Panther has potential here? I love Dragon Stompy and it can wreck depending on what the metagame is. Seems really good getting a Trinisphere and Slash Panther beatdown. As a plus you can pay for it's Phyrexian Red.

Also, Deus of Calamity is really good in Dragon Stompy. Really good.

Does Summoning Trap have a place here? Most of the time my turn one threat is forced. Would be nice to drop Summoning Trap and rip a Deus or Slogger or Magus to win anyways.

Good to have you, Shax. Did I see you in the TMWA or Christmas Beatings thread on Manadrain?

I'm afraid that in Legacy, Slash Panther isn't going to cut it since it is easily removed/blocked. For 4CMC, we seem to be having better luck with Moltensteel Dragon/RPD but perhaps I'm wrong.

I'd like to hear more about Deus of Calamity. I'm not confident that I could reliably cast this spell even with song and that I could get it online fast enough to actually land screw someone.

Aside from Magus of the Moon, I am typically more apt to resolve a screw piece before a threat T1. I think that a trinisphere, chalice, or blood moon enchantment draw out early FoW allowing my threats to resolve. If they wait and counter your threat, I believe the solution currently is to have enough threat density to cast another threat. As you know, it's not uncommon to have one creature go all the way in this deck.

Against permission, I often find that they don't have enough counter for everything. I run into the most trouble against decks like Merfolk where they can answer our threats, mostly shrug off moon effects, and play a fast clock of their own while destroying my tempo with free counter magic. To be honest, dismember hurts us a lot.
But if I am going to use sideboard slots specifically for folk, I would run Spinal Villain as opposed to Summoning Trap.

Against other decks that counter our threats, well, I'm not certain that DS needs to strengthen those match ups.
I'm very interested to hear about some game states where the DS player uses Summoning Trap, though.
Interested to hear about Slash Panther and what kind of creature suite a successful list runs. Moltensteel, Slash Panther, Etched Champion, Porcelain Legionnaire? I'm not sure what is optimal in regards to that.

[DoomPenguin]

So after going 4-0 and coming in first at a weekly legacy tournament last night with this deck I feel obligated to recount it. I've been piloting this deck for a couple weeks (first deck since starting to play Magic again) and had decent to poor results (2-2, 1-4, 2-2, 1-3, 2-3), but clearly the planets aligned much more in my favor last night and I wasn't thrown any painfully hard matchups and was given some nice topdecks.

Here's my list:

10x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

4x Chrome Mox
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Seething Song

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Blood Moon

3x Moltensteel Dragon
3x Arc-Slogger
3x Flametongue Kavu
2x Batterskull

SB:

4x Pyroblast
3x Shattering Spree
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Volcanic Fallout

Round 1: Burn 2-0

Game 1: He gets a first turn Goblin Guide, burns me hardcore for a few turns but I land a Batterskull. He double bolts it. I drop a Flametongue, try to equip it next turn and he Fireblasts it, leaving him with no lands and few cards in hand. He gets another land and is able to burn me some more. I drop a Blood Moon so my own Tomb doesn't kill me, topdeck my second Batterskull and drop it with my life total at 3. Next turn I equip Batterskull on Batterskull and without an answer or way to kill me he folds.

-3 Blood Moon
+3 Phyrexian Metamorph (I thought I might be able to do something cool with these)

Game 2: He gets in some damage before I drop a Trinisphere, slowing him down. I quickly drop a Slogger, followed by Moltensteel and kill him shortly before he gets me down much.

Round 2: Painter Stone 2-0

Game 1: He's able to land 3 Painter Servants, but I lock him down with Revoker on Grindstone, Chalice at 1, and 2 Magus of the Moons. We play draw go for a while because I don't have a threat to kill him but soon land a Moltensteel and cruise to victory.

-4 Trinisphere
-3 Random creatures

+4 Pyroblast
+3 Shattering Spree

Game 2: This was a brutal match for him. He drops a first turn Painter's Servant naming blue, which I Pyroblast next turn. I drop a Revoker on Grindstone and next turn he drops Painter, Grindstone, and LED. I then Seething Song into Shattering Spree destroying them all. He then drops some creature (can't remember what it was) that kills my Revoker. I Flametongue it, and can kill him in 2 turns but then he drops Ensnaring Bridge with no cards in hand. We play draw go for a few turns and I topdeck a Shattering Spree which I Seething song out to destroy the bridge and his artifact lands, killing him shortly after.

Round 3: Zoo 2-1

Game 1: He knows what I'm playing, fetches a basic and drops a Birds of Paradise followed by a Pridemage a turn or so later. I get a Moltensteel which he Pridemage's. He get's out 2 Knights of the Reliquary both of which I'm able to Flametongue. But he gets another followed by Stoneforge for Batterskull and I fold.

Game 2: I don't remember this game very well except that I got an early Moltensteel that he couldn't answer. He get's 2 Knights again but I can race him and seeing that he is tapped out and the Knights can't fetch anything (one is tapped and the other had summoning sickness), I deal 11 to him with Moltensteel in one turn to kill him.

Game 3: He does nothing his first turn (good for me) I drop a Chalice at 1 and Seething Song a Slogger a turn later. He drops a Tarmogoyf, only 2/3 right now, and drops a Jitte while I beat him with Slogger. I burn the Goyf when he tries to equip it and he's dead soon after.

Round 4: Flashless Hulk 2-1 (I didn't realize this until today but this was vs. Felix Lapan, the creator of the deck)

Game 1: I get a very slow hand, but land a Revoker on Mogg Fanatic (wasn't sure what else to name, I'm not hugely familiar with this deck) and try to bet him down with other threats but he combos out and I'm dead to an infinitely large Carrion Feeder.

-3 Flametongue
-2 Random stuff I don't remember

+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Volcanic Fallout

Game 2: I'm able to land 3 Revokers this game (2 in my opening hand) on Fanatic, Feeder, and the creature he sacs to gain life (he was even nice enough to tell me the name of it when I was fumbling to remember) and a Magus. I then beat him down and am able to win before he can combo out. After the round he told me if he had drawn one more land he could have comboed for the win and that he sided out some of the stuff I named.

Game 3: This was my favorite win of the night as it came out of nowhere for both me and him. I had a sweet opening hand of like 2x Seething Song, 2x Blood Moon, Slogger, Tomb, Mountain. He first turn Gitaxian Probes me and my heart sinks feeling a Cabal Therapy but he must not have had one and instead GSZ a Dryad Arbor. Next turn I drop a mountain and pass. He plays a Bayou, then Birds of Paradise and Fauna Shaman. Next turn I double Seething Song out Slogger and shoot Birds and Fauna Shaman. On his turn he drops 2 more Birds and Slaughter Pacts my Slogger. I topdeck a Revoker and trying to hold my excitement at a possible sneaky win, drop Revoker on Birds followed by Blood Moon, leaving him with no black mana for Slaughter Pact.

Overall moral of the night is that Revoker is amazing.

[NecroYawgmoth]

How was Batterskull? -> better / worse than Slogger?

...also 16 Mountains / 66 card decklist

P.S. Revoker was awesome since it was printed. People just don't realized it =P

[DoomPenguin]

Whoops I typed that list too fast, it should be 10x Mountains.

It's hard to say whether Batterskull is better/worse than Slogger, they both serve similar but distinct roles and I would obviously advocate using both.

Slogger really is essential as he just ends games, period. He's the deck's only source of direct damage and the only source of removal (unless you run Flametongue), plus he's a good beater. I would probably cut Batterskull before him.

However I don't want to undercut how good Batterskull is in this deck. It fits well into the curve (first turn Batterskull off of Seething Song is pretty gnarly), it's easier to cast than Slogger making opening hands with few red sources and tons of Tombs/Traitors more viable, it gains you life which is incredibly useful given all the life loss from Tomb and Moltensteel, but most importantly it is great in late game.

You can bounce it again and again if they keep killing the germ or chump block/gain life to stall until you get something else and even more importantly you can equip it to make your Magus/Revoker/Simian etc. into a legitimate threat.

I think if you want to run equipment and aren't playing a hellbent build, Batterskull is perfect because nothing is worse than drawing into equipment without any creature to go with it.

[AlterEgo]

Does this list really still allow Chrome Mox?
You're down to only seventeen imprintable cards, possibly less postboard - did you ever experience a situation where you had nothing to imprint?

[DoomPenguin]

There's actually 21 imprintable cards, but yeah even then I hit some bad opening hands with double Moxes and 0 or 1 red cards or instances were I had only 1 or 2 red cards and really didn't want to imprint either of them.

Chrome Mox is such a mixed bag, I'd love to replace it with something more consistent. Maybe Mox Opal in a more artifact heavy version.

[mercs]

congrats doom penguin. have u tested the merfolk or blade control matchups yet? If so, how does your list fair?

[DoomPenguin]

I've faced both UW Blade Control and Merfolk in previous weeks and I hate to say it but the match ups aren't great, although I certainly haven't played against either of them much (thank god).

I did terrible in the Blade Control games partly because I played pretty badly (look at me Pyroblasting when I already dropped a Chalice at 1!) but also because all they need to do is counter any early disruption and protect Stoneforge long enough to get a Batterskull or SoFaI active and protected and then we're screwed. They just have too many answers.

Merfolk is bad too but probably a better matchup, and I managed to win at least one of the games I played. I think the key here is to slow them down as much as possible, especially in the first few turns. This is where Trinisphere really shines especially if dropped on turn 1 or 2 as it forces them to hold back threats so as to keep mana open for counters or drop threats and give you a free ticket to play whatever you please because if they want to do both they would have to hit six lands minimum. Either way it works in your favor.

The problem is they have Aether Vial to get around Trinisphere so again this is where Revoker really bares his teeth; also shutting down Coralhelm is nice too.

DS folds hardcore to control decks in general (unless they rely heavily on non-basic lands but even then that's not a sure victory by a long shot), especially ones that pack either discard (Hymn is particularly devastating) or enough counters to keep us off any major threats or early disruption pieces. The "all in" nature of the deck is often its downfall.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Anyway, moving on, I've been testing Fire Braid. It's from Coldsnap and has a cumulative upkeep of adding (R) to your mana pool. I've been using it in conjunction with Slogger (as needed of course), Moltensteel Dragon's Firebreathing and Rakdos Pit Dragon doing sick things. It feels like this deck's own kind of Standstill. It lets you bounce Batterskull back to your hand.

I hope a few of you playtest it and post your results. I don't get to play very often, but I have this built and do very well with it when I play. I have a land destruction version of the list I've been playing, and I put Braid of Fire in it. It doesn't help with LoSP at all, so that makes it less good.

Try it out and post. I'm sure there are even more options out there, but I don't know what I want to drop for them, and also, I don't want the list to start depending on Braid of fire, I want it to complement the deck, taking it from decently good to Insanely synergistic.

--ABC

[vanillamebad]

hey, just finished reading the 34 pages of this thread so I thought I'd sign up and post. I find it really sad that there aren't really any amazing splashable red creatures. I did see this guy though: Spitemare http://magiccards.info/eve/en/147.html
(not sure how to card tag, sorry)

what do you guys think?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Looks like a weaker Tephraderm which still isn't good enough. Also, what is a 3/3 for 4 mana with no pump/very relevant abilitys nowadays?

Anyways, this deck is so full of crappy cards outside of Moons, Chalice, Revoker and maybe... ...well outside of these. It make's nearly no difference if you play creature A or creature B, because most of the time you win thanks to Moons, backed up with any critter who kills the opponent fast.


@vanillamebad: [ cards ] insert card name here [ /cards ] without spaces for card-tagging.

[vanillamebad]

I was thinking about it being able to get through or at least trade with goyfs. their tarmogoyf would be kept at bay (unless they wanted to trade) and you could probably even get there with a jitte on it (again, unless they wanted to trade with goyf). do they take the 3, giving jitte some counters to kill their weenies, or do they block, still giving counters to jitte while trading and/or possibly even killing another creature on their side? or i could be crazy and this card could be crap, but i'll still try it out

edit: testing out the card tagging. thanks for that

[NecroYawgmoth]

well... What about Phyrexian Metamorph then? It can also stallblock Goyfs, and is bigger than this guy when it copies Goyfs. It's also a solution against Emrakul and Progenitus. It would be even better with Jitte in a Goyf vs Metamorph-scenario here.

Speaking about Tarmogoyfs and Phyrexian Mana: Anyone considered Dismember for this deck?

[vanillamebad]

I really, really dig the metamorph. i'm thinking about running 2 main and one in the sideboard. i imagine making some huge plays with him, but increasing the artifact count can be really annoying with the chrome mox sometimes.

I don't know about dismember. i love it in standard, but i've never really thought about putting it in here.

[jin]

Anyway, moving on, I've been testing Fire Braid. It's from Coldsnap and has a cumulative upkeep of adding (R) to your mana pool. I've been using it in conjunction with Slogger (as needed of course), Moltensteel Dragon's Firebreathing and Rakdos Pit Dragon doing sick things. It feels like this deck's own kind of Standstill. It lets you bounce Batterskull back to your hand.

I hope a few of you playtest it and post your results. I don't get to play very often, but I have this built and do very well with it when I play. I have a land destruction version of the list I've been playing, and I put Braid of Fire in it. It doesn't help with LoSP at all, so that makes it less good.

Try it out and post. I'm sure there are even more options out there, but I don't know what I want to drop for them, and also, I don't want the list to start depending on Braid of fire, I want it to complement the deck, taking it from decently good to Insanely synergistic.

--ABC

Braid of Fire meet Akroma, Angel of Wrath = )

I think Braid of Fire is interesting, but it has certain limitations. The major drawback to Braid of Fire is that the mana only comes during the upkeep which really limits our ability to use it. It does help with my maindeck Jaya, Task Master, but it feels kind of win-more. I wouldn't compare it to Standstill at all as it gives you no real big advantage once it lands. I takes a few turns to ramp up and even then it's not great. If any slot it takes up, it will be the Blood Moon/3sphere slot as it is neither a threat nor a source to power out arc slogger. It's simply an innert permanent. It resembles the second Blood Moon/3sphere you draw. You could build a deck around it, but you would have to rely on it way too much. It's quite conditional, I suggest you move on.

I, myself, have been looking at mountain cycling (something Cougar). He's a 4/4 (which is kinda small) for 7 mana, but he mountain cycles which allows you to keep hands with double-generic lands. What do you guys think? He's really fixed my mana, but sometimes I lose that explosive start because I'm forced to cycling him. I'm not too sure if I'm moving in the correct direction.

I also play Jaya, Task Master in the main. She's a house and she compliments Arc-Slogger well.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I must insist on Braid of Fire being an actual plus to this list. Akroma Morph and pump, Moltensteel Pump, Pit Dragon pump, and cast instants (which we don't do much...Yet.), activate jaya (I play her a LOT also), activate Arc-Slogger, and even more. There's a lot that can be done with Braid of Fire.

Off-topic, just went frame by frame on the Ula dancing part on Return of the Jedi right before the rancor gets her. Full tit, nipple and all. A complete day.

-ABC

[Octopusman]

I'm sorry, I have to be the typical naysayer regarding braid of fire.

The deck needs to be dropping lock pieces or threats (for now - maybe non-hellbent with some new draw engine card yet to be printed will exist and emerge in the future). This is neither. It's a borderline, slow, conditional threat augmenter. Has anyone actually unmorphed red akroma with this? What if it was a different creature and another creature... or a lock piece? Would the clock have been faster or your board position more secure? Probably.
Why are you playing braid of fire in the early game instead of chalice, trinisphere, magus of the moon, or blood moon and then a threat? In the mid game you need to be playing serious threats instead of something that can't attack and needs turns to ramp up.

In the late game, you can possibly get a decent pump but you'll be wishing you had beat them to death with the card that would have existed in your hand had it not been Braid.

The deck doesn't really have any form of card advantage (slogger and FTK are corner cases). It needs cards to interact with the opponent, especially in the early turns. It doesn't need a dead card with the 8 acceleration.
It needs to gain virtual card advantage by shutting off cards with chalice, turning them off with revoker, moon effects, and so on and so forth.
Mana for slogger activations or other pumps just isn't that necessary or game ending.

Having not tested it doesn't mean it can't logically be determined to be bad.


I think it is wrong wrong wrong for any version of this deck. I'd like to see Dragon Stompy grow and develop into a stronger deck but I don't think this is an innovation that is going to be useful.

Even the more aggressive versions of DS with less focus on control/locks would be better served with another threat in my opinion. Don't forget how hard dismember kills our threats. The threat count needs to be as dense as possible squeezing in damage where you can. I guarantee that when you can't race the opponent because you have no threat and a braid on the board you will cut it.

Not trying to hate. I just want the deck type to prosper. Please prove me wrong!



An aside - What are Dragon Stompy players doing to combat hive mind? I don't like sundial.
If anyone thinks they have a good sideboard I'd like to see it. Specifically, a sideboard that can fight NO, Emrakul, Dredge, Affinity/MUD, Hive Mind, and Merfolk

Cheers

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Eh, I will back off the Braid of Fire for a bit, valid points have been made. Here is what I have been having decent success with for a bit now:

Creatures: 18
3x Shivan Wumpus
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Magus of the Moon
3x Deus of Calamity
2x Arc Slogger
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Spells: 23
4x Chrome Mox
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Blood Moon
4x Stone Rain
4x Seething Song
2x Molten Rain//other land destruction

Land: 19
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
11x Mountain/Snow-Covered Mountain

Sometimes I cut an Ancient Tomb and a (Snow-Covered Mountain) for either Wastelands, Ports (these don't work so well), or Mouth of Ronoms. Sideboard is my own personal metagame, and it's not like yours, it is casual legacy, so I storm the place with awesome power and obliterate everything. It's fun for a while, but I gotta get these kids playing fun mtg, not commander and crappy type two.

Anyway, suggestions are of great importance to me. Good/Bad, lmk.

-ABC

[NecroYawgmoth]

3R
Instigator Gang

Creature - Human Werewolf
Attacking creatures you control get +1/+0.
At the beginning of each upkeep, if no spells were cast last turn, transform Instigator Gang.
2/3

////////////

Wildblood Pack

Creature - Werewolf
Trample
Attacking creatures you control get +3/+0.
At the beginning of each upkeep, if a player cast two or more spells last turn, transform Wildblood Pack.
5/5


Seems like an interesting creature for DS. It supports fast beatdown, and let Magus & Revoker swing for 5. Flip-condition is kinda stupid, but Moons can help, that the opponent plays no spells.

Imagine something like:
- turn 1 -> Tomb, Mox, Magus
- turn 2 -> Instigator Gang, with help of SSG or Song or something, swing with Magus [2]
- opponent couldn't play a spell thanks to Magus
- turn 3 -> Swing for 13 (Wildblood Pack [8] & Magus [5]

[overseer1234]

Flip-condition is kinda stupid, but Moons can help, that the opponent plays no spells.

Trinisphere, also prevents opponents from playing spells (and chalice of the void discourages it, but the spells still get played...)

[Octopusman]

Misstep was good times for Dragon Stompy. What's going on with this deck now?
Are players dusting off Goblins?

I desperately want to see this deck perform well.

Any predictions regarding how DS can combat the new meta?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Like always... Metadeck... If your meta is full of nonbasics, DS will rule, otherwise it craps to itself thanks to bad creatures and Stompy-constance.

[MasterKazoom]

just wanted to post a quick report about a local 30 man tourney that I won 4-0-1 - played against show and tell, dredge, high tide combo & suicide faeries.

I ran this list:
10 mountains
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
4x chrome mox
4x simian spirit guide
3x seething song
4x magus of the moon
4x chalice of the void
3x trinisphere
3x blood moon
4x gathan raiders
4x rakdos pit dragon
3x arc slogger
2x koth, the hammer
4x phyrexian revoker

sb
2x cave-in
2x pyrokinesis
3x pyroblast
1x red elemental blast
2x shattering spree
2x tormod's crypt
1x umezejawas jitte
1x trinisphere
1x blood moon

show and tell died to moons and quick dragons, dredge died to poor decisions and spirit guides, high tide just died (pyroblasts helped), suicide faeries died to moons and their own upkeep.

the last matchup would have been maverick, and a quick fun game showed that although the matchup was winnable, the odds weren't all that high since the version the guy was running had firespout mainboard to deal with my revokers and magi, and once that batterskull hits the board, you're pretty much dead.

I don't get how you guys can just add moltensteel dragon for consistencies' sake - sure you can cast him for 2RR, but that 4 life + a removal and lots more potential life paid by you seems very discouraging. You might say "but I got chalice 1 / another disrupt, he won't get removed!" if that's the case, play something else that kills the enemy and doesnt take you dangerously low. Matchups like combo etc, where life totals dont matter until the very last turn (in the case of tendrils), aren't all that bad a matchup, and most aggro decks (read: our not so good matchups) usually have more than one kind of removal / will race you, in which case 4 damage is something you will feel, especially if you use your ancient tombs. I want the sloggers out of my deck as well, and I've found Koth as a possible replacement, I just would never play 4. all of this leads me to keep sloggers in, at least a few, and have a good anti-aggro MU card mainboard. Because if the matchup isnt aggro, and I'm secure against removal, slogger does the job as well.

[1maarten1]

If someone was going to pilot this during GP Amsterdam, what would be the 'best' list. The reason I am asking is because I am thinking about building the deck for Amsterdam, but I don't have too much experience with the archetype. I think it might be a good choice because I think the deck can hunt on all of the Snapcaster mage decks and have a decent combo matchup aswell!

[GGoober]

Nice MasterKazoom. I agree, MoltenSteel will usually read: Pay 6 life (with Ancient Tombs) and you might lose to yourself.

Quick question: You brought in Pyroblasts against High Tide while keeping the Chalice in? I guess you can REB protect a turn 2 Chalice, but seems like it could potentially shut out some of your cards. Another question is: I want to see the suicide Faeries list :P

[zathe922]

Against which decks do you side out the chalices for the blasts? Merfolk and Hive Mind?

[mercs]

Dang! i kinda wish i was still in the states to test ds in this meta.

For me the misstep era was pretty hideous for DS.
-Blade control is a terrible matchup
-Hive Mind is near impossible
-Merfolk is always a pain without heavy sb
-and Much combo was no where to be seen.
and for the most part, blade control and hive mind made up most of the meta.

With misstep out though, the meta's lookin nice.
-online, blade control seems to have probs with reanimator and team america (albeit it's online)
-Hive mind is still hive mind
-NO RUG and Zoo are manageable.
Team America seems to be the best beneficiary of snapcaster, and could/should eat up the meta. This might pave the way for DS to squeeze in :D

[Zupponn]

-Hive Mind is near impossible

What impact does Boil have?

[Vash]

do you think about this?
4 in MD?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244683

[GoldenCid]

do you think about this?
4 in MD?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244683

Nice, but don't you think that gathan riders do the job?

[Vash]

Nice, but don't you think that gathan riders do the job?

I am not very fond of hellbent versions

[0dysseus]

Hey guys. I haven't written and played for some time. Except for just one tournament, I really haven't been involved during spring and the MM period. However, more spare time's ahead and I've finally bought those lent City of Traitors.. So I'd like to share some raw thoughts with people here that play mostly competitive magic. Here goes:

1) I haven't faced Hivemind yet. I'd like to know why you all say it's that bad. My logic: Phyrexian Revoker shuts off Grim Monoliths, Trinisphere makes them play a pact the round after Show and Tell, and you can also pack 4 Red Blasts in your SB to fight SaT. Or even better, safely destroy Hivemind with REB if Trini is on the table already. A well placed Moon makes them pray for their 3 basic Islands. They only have 4 Force of Will to fight that, Pact of Negation does nothing before Hivemind's online. DS has speed. DS can run 2-3 Phyrexian Metamorphs main/SB to fight Emrakul. Oh, and chalice at 1 nullifies their Brainstorm/Ponder spells. Hell, on rare occasion you can even pay Pact of the Titan's upkeep cost with Seething Song. So...why all the fuss everywhere about a currently effective -but still- 3 card combo deck that's full of nonbasics? At worse, is this not a 50/50 match?

2) Next thing is also a question. Has anyone boiled down that Phyrexian Metamorph can safely reduce the graveyard hate to 2 pieces? Seems that copying reanimated stuff or SaT'd/hardcast Eldrazi can do the trick. A most solid answer to Iona too. What kind of decks do I miss that need so much graveyard hate AND are not answered adequately with Metamorph? I know that Ichorid plays in quite an unorthodox manner, I've also read that a LEDless version did well -recently I think- but again. A Trini or Blood Moon can bring this match to an even level I think.
Maybe NecroYawg can help in this, as he is adept with Ichorid. [We can test a bit in workstation in one week from now]. But about that sideboard grave hate, what decks do you fear that Phy.Metamorph cannot deal with? I mean: cannot deal at all. (Reminding that Revoker can shut off Knights of the Reliquary, and one of your Moons can stop the crucible-waste engine).

3) Here are some thoughts about reconstrusting this deck (oh no, not again!:), reevaluating each single part of it. What I did was gather up each card in DS's history(well, not Cyclops) in a workstation SB. Then I started writing in a paper about what I wanted the deck to do, using priority, and adding from workstation's SB to main deck.

I. What is the very first thing that comes to mind when thinking about DS? Disruption. Aggro is the second thing I personally choose to do, that can wait and be played after disruption, protected by it(when playing against the majority of the format). I haven't been the advocate of the 1st turn Slogger in most cases, surely not when I did not know yet what the other player was playing.
So, disruption. First and probably second turn disruption. So we need sol lands and mountains, chrome moxes(if we don't want to go artifact) and simian spirit guides. The question is just how much?

The basis so far is 10 Mountains and the 8 Tempest-block sol lands. Some guys played 11 Mountains, depending on the list. Here I'd like to offer a different perspective. I used a hypergeometric distribution board of "X lands in your initial seven cards". I copied it from a site(don't remember which), but I also double checked a sample of 10 results in this site: http://stattrek.com/Tables/Hypergeometric.aspx So the table seems to be correct. I also summed up the total of some probabilities. You'll see why.

Probability of drawing X Lands in Hand

Lands:

in hand__5______4_______3_______2______1_________0___0+6+7___0+5+6+7___1+2+3+4___2+3+4_____2+3____1+2+3__________________1+2_
/
in
deck

_26__9.56%__23.16%__31.22%__23.42%___9.05%
_25__8.19%__21.44%__31.18%__25.22%__10.51%
_24__6.93%__19.64%__30.87%__26.94%__12.10%
_23__5.80%__17.82%__30.29%__28.56%__13.84%
_22__4.79%__15.98%__29.43%__30.02%__15.73%
_21__3.90%__14.16%__28.33%__31.31%__17.74%_____________________________________________________________________________49,05%
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________>3,20
_20__3.13%__12.39%__26.98%__32.37%__19.88%________________________________________________________79,23%_______________52,25%_____>0,15
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>1,48_________________>3,05
_19__2.47%__10.70%__25.41%__33.18%__22.12%___5,82%__6,12%____8,59%___91,41%___69,29%___58,59%___80,71%_____>0,39_____55,30%_____>0,20
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>1,09_________________>2,85
_18__1.91%___9.10%__23.65%__33.70%__24.45%___6,99%__7,19%____9,10%___90,90%___66,45%___57,35%___81,80%_____>0,42_____58,15%_____>0,26
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>0,67_________________>2,59
_17__1.45%___7.61%__21.73%__33.90%__26.84%___8,34%__8,47%____9,92%___90,08%___63,24%___55,63%___82,47%_____>0,48_____60,74%_____>0,35
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>0,19_________________>2,24
_16__1.07%___6.24%__19.68%__33.74%__29.24%__________________11,10%___88,90%____________53,42%___82,66%_____>0,35_____62,98%_____>0,37
________________________________________________________________________________________________________>-0,16_________________>1,87
_15__0.77%___5.02%__17.55%__33.22%__31.63%_______________________________________________________82,40%_______________64,85%_____>0,47
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________>1,40
_14__0.54%___3.93%__15.38%__32.30%__33.95%____________________________________________________________________________66,25%
_13__0.36%___3.00%__13.21%__30.98%__36.14%
_12__0.23%___2.22%__11.08%__29.26%__38.13%

Please don't take this analysis as an axiom... I know some statistics, but I'm not a mathematician and this could be wrong.

In my opinion always, the ideal initial 7 cards are those with 1 or 2 lands. That's because:

(i) Turn 1 disruption can usually be cast with 1 or 2 lands (8 lands produce double colorless and we play 4 SSGs and 4 moxes).

(ii) While I want to be able to play disruption turn one, I also do not want to get mana-flooded. So hands with 3 lands are good, but could be better [I'll explain the logic behind this in (iii)]. Hands with 4 lands are bad -kept only if, say, I have that castable turn 1 disruption piece and 2 consecutive threats. Hands with 5+ lands, or with no lands at all, get reshuffled.

(iii) The printing of Phyrexian Revoker allowed us to play more spells at 2 mana. Also there is Chalice at 1. Kargan Dragonlord and/or Jitte (if used) are more spells at 2 cmc.

However the party in DS starts at 3 cmc, so I don't want to get stuck in 2. That is why I want your opinions here. The table above, and limited testing has showed that if DS curve is lower, you can play with 17 lands. 9 Mountains and a free slot, that's what this is all about, with even a better chance to draw a better initial hand if possible.

Now for some analysis of the table. Wherever you see X+Y it is the added probability of X and Y.
[At this point I must say that I honestly don't know why the hell the "2 lands in hand" column is the only column that peaks and declines again. But I notice that "3-5 land" columns increase, as you add more lands to your deck, and column 1-land decreases.]

The deck that has the largest possibility to give you two lands in your initial seven is the one with 17 lands (33,90%). With trivial difference from a 16L, a 18L deck, or even 19L. Among the 17, 18 and 19 land decks, it is the deck that has the largest probability of producing a 1 land hand too. But it is also the deck that has the largest probability of giving you zero lands, and the smallest probability of giving you 3 lands (among the 17, 18, 19). So what's next?

The next thing is to think about how much does anyone want to gamble safely with his/her deck. This is also a game of luck after all. The probability of a 17 land deck giving exactly zero land in your initial seven is 8,34%. For a typical 18 land dragon stompy that's 6,99%.

But do you only mulligan when you have zero lands in hand with this deck? No. You also mulligan when you have 5 lands. I also mulligan most of the times when I have 4, but that depends as I said. [6 and 7 land hands are estimated also, despite of being almost impossible].

So...the ideal hand has 1 or 2 or 3 lands. The chance that makes you want to mulligan that depends on the rest of your hand (nonland cards) seems irrelevant in this analysis, but if you want one more business spell in your initial seven, and simultaneously you want to be able to drop disruption turn 1, you'd better choose 17L, I think!

Since you cannot have simultaneously a starting hand with 3 cards exactly and a starting hand with 2 cards exactly, these are independent events and their probabilities can be added, to estimate another probability percentage. Now if we add the probabilities of these 1L, 2L, 3L desired events...then you'll see that the deck which has the largest added probability to give you 1 or 2 or 3 lands in the beginning is 16land.deck. But the difference between 16L and 17L in that case is 0,19%(noted besides). That's not much. And just because 2 lands in your starting hand are better than 1 or 3, that's why I think 17 land deck beats 16 just on the finishing line by an also trivial 33,90 - 33,70 = 0,20%.

Why don't you speak about 18 land stompy Ody? Because it is worse in getting you 1 land, 2 lands, 1 or 2 lands added, and 1 or 2 or 3 lands added. It is better in giving you 3 lands and better in the 2+3 lands probability. But I don't want that.
Why did you add those events' probabilities? Because if you do this subtraction: 100% minus the probability of your added ideal initial hands(concerning lands), you get the chance you have to mulligan(only concerning mana-screw or flood). So it's: 100% - Pr(ideal hand) = Pr(hand to be mulliganned). 100 - 82,47 = 17,53% for 17 land deck. Notice that this percentage is at a minimum at 16 lands (100 - 82,66 = 17,34).

This estimation is based solely on the mulligans caused by lands!

One small flaw in my logic is the automatic assumption that I mulligan 4 land hands -which hands can be totally random. Therefore, I assume I only want 1/2/3 Lands in my starting 7...
But I'm sure I have mulliganed more 4 land hands than I've kept. Please give me some insight right here dudes...do you often keep those 4L draws? Remember that one more land equals to one less spell (a worse chance to have one of your moon disruption pieces first round, or 1 less threat!)

So if you want to have a better possibility to have 3 lands, play 18L.deck, or even 19! If you want to have 1 land, play 17 (or...16)!
The 2 lands possibilities are about even. 17 gives a better chance to mana screw, 18, 19 give a better chance to mana flood.
We are talking about probabilities that are less than 5% here. But hey, that's a free slot. If, of cource, you agree with all this stuff.

One last thing. Your sol lands, moxes and apes, aren't reduced at all. And it is on the back of them mostly that you play your first lockpiece. Your larger dudes play with Seething Song. I would prompt you to test 1-2 forgotten caves in the place of the tenth and/or eleventh mountain, if you feel unsafe with 17 lands. Mr. Tacosnape had suggested this in the old thread for the record, along with keldon halberdier, in case somebody wants a 1 cost ability/spell that gets around chalice. Cave gets around Trini too.
I tried to bring the numbers, to provide you with choices according to your playstyle and list.

The large flaw in this whole shit is that I haven't estimated the average round of incoming lands when you draw. If I wanted to defend 18-19 land decks, I'd say: the mana recovery from the moon effects on your own sol lands is easier with those decks. I mean you get to 3 mana quicker, but I don't know how much quicker. The problem is when you're left at 1 mana. But! If you play 2 Dragonlords, 4 Revokers , 1-2 Jitte and...4 Chalices, you do have 2cmc choices, and most of them colorless, even in the scenario of mana screw caused by luck (and not moons or trini).
Achtung! If you play 17L, DON'T drop Trini 1st turn, unless you can go on, or the blow upon your opponent's plan is stronger! (Whom 're ye advising ye bloody idiot? Many o these guys probably play a lot bett'r than yuu:))

II. The next thing after lands and disruption is speed and winning conditions. Seething Song, Priest or both? More weenie or more fat guys? Actually this post got a lot bigger than planned. So I won't make your balls swallow any more from disgust. I'm just posting my recent experimental list and a last paragraph.


8 Sol lands
9 Mountain!

3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Vooooooooooooooooooo-iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidd....>SPLATCH!!<
4 Moxies
2 Chaos Warp (in the role of the infamous oh-shit button)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (could be a 4th Trini, especially in this list! But since I pack 3 Metamorphs main, I want to have something to bring when I copy Stoneforge Mystic)

4 Affe! (= Simian Spirit Guides:)
4 Magus of the Moonstar of Limbo
4 Needles on legs (aka Phyrexian Revoker)
2 Kargan Dragonlords
3 Priests of Urabrask (A bridge to 1st turn lockpiece and aggro. I want to play this guy early, but I prefer not to see him twice)
3 Phyrexian metamorph (This guy is the definition of non-counterspell versatility. An answer to their fat, also copies our fat. Gets your own sensei's. Also copies priest and then you play sth and get mindbreak trapped:))
2 Gathan Raiders
1 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Instigator Gang // Wildblood Pack

17 lands, 17 spells.....26 creatures! If you don't want Chaos Warp and Jitte, you can get to 28-29 easily! This just could be the best thing to do, if our favorite deck is weak in topdeck mode.

SB:

3 Ratchet Bombs
1 Anarchy (bomb #4 against white shiny thingies)
1 Shattering Spree (same)
4 Red Elemental Blasts (Hivemind, Merfolk, and it's generally super vs. Wizards' favorite child...and that is blue of course, as we all know)
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 free slots - Volcanic fallout, trini, moon, null rod, null brooch, whatever. You can even play a single sword, and bring it with metamorphed Stoneforge Mystic game 2.


Werewolf is all the equipment these guys need. If you are patient and play defence for a round he's just grand. You can level up Kargan meanwhile, or Warp your second Moon or unimprinted mox in opponent's EoT. You'll have an extra pumped up attacker, and it will hurt.
Even if the other guy gets rid of all his brainstorms and StPs that your chalice counters, it is good pressure to do that. If your chalice is gone, his hand won't be that full. The werewolves have the opposite effect of Mauler: they force the other guy play spells or get smashed.
One thing's for sure. If he gets huge, we can use this trample damage and the pumping. If.
-I was thinking of combining 4 Maulers with 4 Gangs because they "complement" in away one another, but that reason only seemed a bit "casual".
-Only 2-4 Hellbent dudes are good if you want more time to prepare your hellbent, and have them at their maximum once they arrive. You can play with half of the hellbent engine you know.
-Taurean Mauler vs. Kargan. I think Kargan wins. He is better late game, and about equal early (considering possible mana problems).
-The curve stops at 4 as you see for more consistency, and just because those 4 cmc slots are taken, I didn't add LoSP, Moltensteel or Slogger, even though I love them. Slogger plays well with song and more land.
-Other spells under consideration...1 Bonehoard / 1 Tuktuk the Explorer / the werewolf Vash said (..and 1-2 Batterskull in my Seething Song list!)

I'm sorry you had to suffer one more of my large posts:) I really hope my statistics are not wrong. Maybe I'll re-edit, and make this thing more readable.
Just because ALL this hasn't been tested on competitive environment yet, and I want to detect any flaws early, sharing your own experience/aspect would be great.

[Vash]

-Other spells under consideration...1 Bonehoard / 1 Tuktuk the Explorer / the werewolf Vash said (..and 1-2 Batterskull in my Seething Song list!)

that wolf deserves a chance :smile:

[GoldenCid]

Combo arises, RUG, Team america, maverick DTB...give this deck a chance!

My first approach!!

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [ZEN] Mountain (4a)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [WWK] Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [TE] Boil
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy

[Vash]

reviewing wolves I prefer Vashwolf :smile: (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244683) as being 1/5 helps against aggro and can handle some sparks something that the other wolves can not, cost 3 allows us to play it first turn and a the song could also play a chalice x1 or jitte.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Team America, Combo & RUG yeah... Really good MUs for DS

But I honestly can't see how this deck should beat Maverick [which is HIGHLY overplayed here]... =(

[0dysseus]

Hmm...interesting. The transformed side of cards has a casting cost of zero. Easy target for engineered explosives / Ratchet @ 0, etc.. I don't know if it's worth it to play more than 3-4 of those guys.

As for Maverick, what can they do against a Moon, if DS plays first? On the other hand, when Maverick plays first... fetch-> basic forest-> N.Hierarch seems bad.

[Vash]

I think that 4 is the ideal number for wolves
My vote: Hanweir Watchkeep (cost 3=first turn, 1/5=agro cry)

[NecroYawgmoth]

Maverick does the same to a Moon that Zoo does... If you haven't it 1st turn they don't care about... They have plenty of basics also... Also the big Aggro combined with Moms is a Problem.

That Transformer seem pretty nice against Aggro. But Transform is a double cleaved Edge [as is Hellbent IMO], but red still gets no love from WotC. Speaking of Transform... What about Instigator Gang? Am I the only one who likes him?

EDIT: Something needs to be done to show transform-cards.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=227415

[jancz]

I think the Instigator Gang is fairly interesting. If you can go > Lockpiece > Gang you can put them on a 3 turn clock. So a shame Dismember shreds him.

Also what should I sideboard in against NO bant? I tested a bit against a friend and it seems like if we dont land a T1 Blood moon we get eaten. A single noble Hierarch can fuel a green sun zenith into a Qasili Pridemage and just ruin our day.

[bganns]

Hey guy's last weekend i have entrend a local tornament of 12 players (not to much players rs), i ended in frist place invicted, the top 4 has: me, reanimator, uw stoneblade, and a bg dark dephts, during the other champ matches i have played against all of them, the final has me and the reanimate endead 2-0 for me, hope this report have ben of any help for the deck rs.
Ps: sorry for the bad english, it's not my country language.

[ForlornEgoist]

Also what should I sideboard in against NO bant? I tested a bit against a friend and it seems like if we dont land a T1 Blood moon we get eaten. A single noble Hierarch can fuel a green sun zenith into a Qasili Pridemage and just ruin our day.
Anarchy is definitely a card you should be running 3+ of in the SB if NO-Bant is popular in your meta as it will kill the two most prominent threats, Prog/KotR.

Phyrexian Revoker is also a viable option for SB as it can either deny them mana from Hierarch/Birds or lock down Qasali (which I most often find to be the more relevant choice).

Burn is another possible choice although perhaps not as viable as the above listed. Flametongue Kavu, Pyrokinesis, and/or Volcanic Fallout are probably your best bet. Pyrokinesis is probably the worst choice as your opponents counters could result in a 1-for-2 on their part, not to mention further advantage being gained for them by their various cantrips. I opt to MD 4 Kavus (due to my current heavy meta of dredge/tribal/zoo). Perhaps the most viable burn for this MU would be Volcanic Fallout as the instant-speed, uncounterable means you can easily kill off Hierarch, Birds, Qasali, Dryad Arbor, and the dreaded Trygon. That having been said, I'm not overly fond of Volcanic due to its 1RR and the fact its less relevant in other MU's.

It's definitely one of the more annoying MU's as our only real out to Proggy is Anarchy, but some MU's are just bad regardless of how much we SB. Honestly, unless your meta is rampant with NO Bant lists I would advise just dedicating a few SB slots to Anarchy and moving on. Revoker/Burn will help the MU as well as having the added benefit of improving other MU's. NO Bant is one of those decks for us where we would have to alter MD/SB more than necessary in order to attempt to compete.

ForlornEgoist

[ForlornEgoist]

So, I've been mulling around with my Stompy list for quite some time now and honestly think its in need of some modification. So, I'm going to post the list, mull some things here, and see if I can get some opinions.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Batterskull

3 Blood Moon

4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
3 Moltensteel Dragon


3 Shattering Spree
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Anarchy
2 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs

Firstly, I want to look at the Flametongue Kavu. Has anyone else besides myself been using these in their lists recently? I've always debated that one of the key weaknesses of our deck was lack of creature removal of which I felt Kavu a prompt answer. However, it seems that the metagame has been shifting away from the need for burn like Kavu. Not only this, I've been finding myself on ocassion in situations where I cannot drop him because he is the only legal target. I am considering taking him out entirely from the deck, or at least substituting him into the SB.

Moltensteel seems like he'd be a viable 4-of if our deck we're running 3 Batterskull. I honestly rarely am ever dissapointed to see a Moltensteel, and I can usually swing at least 4R, thus making him only cost 2 rather than the traditional 4 life.

Has anyone been having any sucess with Lord of Shatterskull Pass replacements? Anyone who has seen my post in regards to him know I've been rather adamament about the vital role he can fulfill with our deck, but once again look at how our deck seems to gain more strengths from Batterskull/Moltensteel, thus perhaps negating the role he filled. The fact that he can become a 6/6 for an additional 1R is nothing to snuff at, but I've still found myself in situations where I had to waste 2 turns on a creature that itself doesn't affect the board state. Perhaps there is a better replacement?

I may consider taking out 1 Blood Moon and possibly throw it in the SB. It just seems like fewer decks are around right now that get auto-screwed by a T1 Moon effect, and mid-late game its a dead draw.

After much debating several people in my meta, I may reconsider adding RAkroma as a 1-of. As a 1-of she ultimately won't affect majority of my games and can randomly win games when she hits. It seems like having at least 1 wincon the opponent can't answer might be beneficial to the deck.

What I need to do, honestly, is build the artifact version of this deck I've been longing to make for quite some time but never got around to doing such. Basically, the list I had come up with was something to the effect of:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Batterskull
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Blood Moon

4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Etched Champion
4 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Lodestone Golem

Thats a very, very raw list. I know for a fact it could be optimized. But anyway, back to my actual decklist.

As it stands, I think I'm just focusing too hard on trying to make DS a legitimate deck rather than an inconsistent deck which randomly can do good in the right meta. This, perhaps, is where all of my frusturation is currently coming from. Regardless of whether or not I can ever make the deck a DTB, I still plan to get it foiled out. ^~^ (All thats really left is the equipment, SSG, and the Magus).

As far as the SB goes I honestly have no idea what the hell to do about that. The Spree is there primarily to deal with the 2 UR PainterStones in my meta. Revokers are always a solid choice for our deck (and still meta-dependant for MD or SB if you ask me).
The Anarchy is a card which I am having trouble knowing when to put it into the SB. It helps beat NO-Prog/Enchantress which can be trouble MU's for us, but majority of time I don't encounter these decks so I essentially have 3 dead SB slots. I guess I just dread the day I SB them out only to encounter said MU's.
As far as the Volcanic Fallouts go I'm not overly fond of them but with all the U decks in my meta I guess I was just reluctant to let them go although tourney use has altered my opinion. What I need to think about is which cards are relevant enough to warrant uncounterable burn that ultimately won't win me a match or help me in other MU's.
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs seems moot as well. I just hardly see myself actually SBing him in any MU's.

Anyway, theres my little rant. I would appreciate suggestions for how to improve my decklist, or cards/ratios you've found relevant to improving our overall strength.

Forlorn Egoist

[bganns]

So the list i have been playing it's this, the marauderes have showed to be freaking strong against control deck's (since my game fild it's full of them), main metamorph it's very usefull as well.

Lands
11 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Creatures
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Falkenrath Marauders
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon

Sideboard
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Flametongue Kavu
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

[Marchangel]

Here's my list of this fantastic deck:

6x Mountain
4x Great Furnace
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox (aka the basic artifact mana base)

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Seething Song

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Blood Moon
3x Trinisphere
4x Phyrexian Revoker (aka the hate package)

4x Gathan Raiders
2x Covetous Dragon

2x Kuldotha Phoenix
2x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Body and Mind

|||SB|||
3x Shattering Spree
2x Pyroblast
2x Anarchy
1x Blood Moon
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crpyt
2x Arc-Slogger

Kuldotha Phoenix seems very good with 6 discard outlets, 4 Seething Song and 4 Moxen I have. I run 21 artifacts, so reaching metalcraft shouldn't be a problem. The point is not to hardcast him, but to use his ability to come back to live. (RRR is too hard to achieve without a Song.)

Jaya is the discard outlets 5&6 and she hates fishes and other blue stuff (painter etc.) Also, she incinerates non-blue stuff and can be boarded out games 2&3.

Covetous Dragon is obviously good with the load of artifacts I pack in my deck.

Some cards I miss:

-Rakdos Pit Dragon
- This is a Hellbent deck, so he would be a good beater. Should I cut something in order to get him in?

- Arc-Slogger
- No room for him in the maindeck, gets boarded in against goblins etc. One-of would be good in the main maybe.

What do you think about the list I shared? I sobam the correct choice for the deck? The sideboard? Share, share, share opinions.

[ForlornEgoist]

Decklist

Perhaps you should describe to us your general meta as DS is one of those decks where the entire structure, rather than 1-3 cards, can be altered based on the meta.

Since you are going for a more artifact-based build (ie. Kuldotha, Covetous) I would say that 4 Mox Opal > Chrome Mox.

You've got an interesting concept with Kuldotha/discard outlets, however the issue I find is that firstly, it forces you to run Gathan Raiders which as of late has become a subpar creature for the deck, in addition to Jaya. I won't deny that Jaya can be useful, particularly against the dreaded Fish, but shes not going to be an auto-win once resolved against a blue-based deck. They can still play around her quite easily, and she is absolutely dead against a majority of the decks we actually have issue with (keep in mind 3sphere/Revoker/CotV solves a lot of our problems against Blue as it is). Not only this, Kuldotha Phoenix, while having evasion, can only be revived at upkeep and is damn near impossible to cast for us without going to mid-game or having a Song in hand.

Since you've opted to run 4 MD Revoker (which I've always argued is a meta call) I think its unnecessary to MD 7 Moon effects. Honestly, I think you'd be fine MDing 6 Moon effects and leaving it at that (SBing moot). Moon can randomly win G1 and helps us slow down tempo decks, but ultimately it has diminishing returns G2/3 as they immediately fetch basics.

@ Equipment: Have you playtested Batterskull? It may be worth your consideration as it recoup's life and provides a beater. Actually, this may be a better investment for you over the Kuldotha as unlike Kuldotha it can be returned at anytime rather than Upkeep and provides us with a beater/blocker and life gain.
Umezawa's Jitte to me as always been a means more for creature removal than buffs or life gain, so I would advocate upping it to 2.
Sword of Body and Mind is primarily used by us for its Static protections/beater and hence is the best of the swords for us to use. Depending on meta I'd run it as a 2-3.

I won't comment on your SB until I'm more familiar with your meta.

Forlorn Egoist

[bganns]

Koth is always a good choice, i don't runing them righ now because they are a little expansive righ now, and i still have to buy my city's =/

[1337erhosen]

How do you guys feel about Chaos Warp as a maindeck or sideboard solution to problem permanents like Jace, Thopters, or Equipment? I've tried Revokers in the main and I'm still having issues with Stonforge Mystic and friends as well as resolved planeswalkers and Ensnaring Bridges, so I'm currently running 2 mainboard.
Chaos Warp seems like a catch-all with a small drawback against any deck that runs Force of Will. We can deal with most of their permanents besides planeswalkers because our creatures are just bigger, and the mana cost fits perfectly with our mana base. Has anybody tested this card and had positive results?

[ForlornEgoist]

So I have been lurking for a while trying to decide what legacy deck to build next. I was wondering if anyone had any idea on how well Koth of the Hammer would do. He makes a 4/4 and if you get him out turn 1 or 2 you will be able to pull his ultimate with ease.

Well, Koth isn't a bad choice by any means for our deck however he does require you build around him. I'm currently running an artifact build of DS (Lodestone Golem/Etched Champion/Moltensteel Dragon/Batterskull/etc.) so he wouldn't fit too well into my build.

What you would need to do to assure that you can support him is run 7-8 Moon effects (my list floats between 5 and 6 based on my meta). Also upping the Mountain count to 11 or 12 (up from the standard 10). Koth should sit between 3-4, 3 being the safer number.

The issue I've found with Koth, at least in my playtesting, is that he ultimately doesn't do anything dastardly amazing to the board position. Yea, he provides an extra beater, extra mana, and some free damage snipes, but he really doesn't have an auto-target on his head like Jace 2.0 does. Not only this, he really sees practical application in the mid-to-late game which I've always fought tooth-and-nail to avoid as we have no cantrips or way of pulling ahead once we enter topdeck mode.

To me, Lodestone Golem has always done more for me as he is more easily cast, can actually kill 'Goyfs, and acts as an extra lockdown piece.

Honestly he isn't overly hard to fit into a DS list, I've just found him to be suboptimal to other choices (esp. since the printing of Moltensteel Dragon and Batterskull).


How do you guys feel about Chaos Warp as a maindeck or sideboard solution to problem permanents like Jace, Thopters, or Equipment? I've tried Revokers in the main and I'm still having issues with Stonforge Mystic and friends as well as resolved planeswalkers and Ensnaring Bridges, so I'm currently running 2 mainboard.
Chaos Warp seems like a catch-all with a small drawback against any deck that runs Force of Will. We can deal with most of their permanents besides planeswalkers because our creatures are just bigger, and the mana cost fits perfectly with our mana base. Has anybody tested this card and had positive results?

Well, the 2R fits nicely in our mana curve, and don't get me wrong, negating a Planeswalker is nothing to snuff at, but I would like to ask 2 things: Firstly, if artifacts are such a problem aren't you running Shattering Spree? This pretty much answers any artifact-based threat and has the added benefit of sneaking around not only our CotVs but counters as well. Secondly, if you're having such issues with Jace 2.0 then why wouldn't you want to up the count of what is essentially your only answer (other than Revoker) to 3-4? I have not by any means playtested this card nor would my meta particularly be forgiving of running this card, so I would welcome someone whos playtested it to comment as I'm just theorycrafting.

On a seperate note, I've never found Enchantress to be a hard MU (and even then Anarchy can clean it up nicely) however, some people tend to have issues with the deck moreso than me so I found this little card as a wincon against them: Aura Barbs. The benefit of Anarchy is that it kills Prog/KotR/misc. white threats, but if Enchantress is your focus this might be a better option.

EDIT:

Forlorn Egoist

[Marchangel]

Perhaps you should describe to us your general meta as DS is one of those decks where the entire structure, rather than 1-3 cards, can be altered based on the meta.

DS being a meta-deck, you're right. Let's see.. People here are running Zoo, Dredge, Fish, Goblins, The Gate, Team America, ANT, Maverick for the estabilished decks and also many homebrew (boros, cephalid breakfast)




STUFF

@ Equipment: Have you playtested Batterskull? It may be worth your consideration as it recoup's life and provides a beater. Actually, this may be a better investment for you over the Kuldotha as unlike Kuldotha it can be returned at anytime rather than Upkeep and provides us with a beater/blocker and life gain.
Umezawa's Jitte to me as always been a means more for creature removal than buffs or life gain, so I would advocate upping it to 2.
Sword of Body and Mind is primarily used by us for its Static protections/beater and hence is the best of the swords for us to use. Depending on meta I'd run it as a 2-3.

I won't comment on your SB until I'm more familiar with your meta.

Forlorn Egoist

Reading your comments and thinking about the meta actually made me want to change the structure of my deck, and going more for mana denial.

Roiling Terrain + SoBaM proved to be a nice synergy while playtesting, RT isn't bad even alone, usually dealing 3-5 damage due to fetch lands/KotR. Also, against Dredge it's nuts. For other LD, I ran Stone Rain and Aftershock + Goblin Ruinblaster

@Equipment, I added 2 SoBaMs but kept Jitte count at 1. Without Gathan Raiderseven two seems too much..

I might post the deck list in case someone's interested.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Reading your comments and thinking about the meta actually made me want to change the structure of my deck, and going more for mana denial.

Roiling Terrain + SoBaM proved to be a nice synergy while playtesting, RT isn't bad even alone, usually dealing 3-5 damage due to fetch lands/KotR. Also, against Dredge it's nuts. For other LD, I ran Stone Rain and Aftershock + Goblin Ruinblaster

@Equipment, I added 2 SoBaMs but kept Jitte count at 1. Without Gathan Raiderseven two seems too much..

I might post the deck list in case someone's interested.

I would love to see your decklist and more comments on the performance.


On a seperate note, I've never found Enchantress to be a hard MU (and even then Anarchy can clean it up nicely) however, some people tend to have issues with the deck moreso than me so I found this little card as a wincon against them: Aura Barbs. The benefit of Anarchy is that it kills Prog/KotR/misc. white threats, but if Enchantress is your focus this might be a better option.

More of than not, Aura Barbs is useless against Enchantress as they have Solitary Confinement.

[Marchangel]

I would love to see your decklist and more comments on the performance.

Based on this deck list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Dragon-Stompy&p=542655&viewfull=1#post542655

2x Wasteland
9x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Seething Song
4x Chrome Mox

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Trinisphere

3x Sword of Body and Mind
2x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Shivan Wumpus
2x Goblin Ruinblaster
3x Stone Rain
3x Roiling Terrain
1x Aftershock

SB:
3x Pyroblast
2x Arc-Slogger
3x Anarchy
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Shattering Spree
1x Phyrexian Revoker

That's a non-artifact version I've tested. Meta-calls like maindeck revokers and sb-pyroblasts can naturally be used for other cards better for your meta.

In general, it's about lands and mana. Trying to limit the amount an opponent casts spells by destroying their lands and using Chalice@1 or 3sphere to disable their cheap spells they still could cast. The plan differs a bit from the old good hellbent strategy, but the key is the same; bombs and disruption.



4x Great Furnace
6x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Seething Song
3x Mox Opal

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Trinisphere

3x Sword of Body and Mind
2x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Lodestone Golem
3x Ankh of Mishra
3x Stone Rain
3x Roiling Terrain

SB:
Above

And this is the artifact version I run. Similiar to the first list. I've been pondering on adding one-of Batterskull, for I kill myself quite fast with Ankhs and Tombs.

Comments, questions, suggestions?

[NecroYawgmoth]

From Drew Levin's article of "How CotV teaches deckbuilding":


- Chalice of the Void is great because it stops them from playing their one-mana spells for the rest of the game. Trinisphere slows the game down, but eventually lets them play their spells.

- Chalice of the Void costs two mana, which you can get from any number of combinations of two-mana lands, Spirit Guides, regular lands, and Moxes. Trinisphere costs three mana, so you probably don't have that many cards left with which to play Magic. To go deeper:

- Trinisphere slows the game down while putting you far behind on cards. You also built your deck in a way that forces you to be weaker in the late game (since, you know, your mana sucks and you aren't playing any cantrips to find action), so you're forcing the game to go late while also building your deck to be worse in that stage of the game. The one situation where that isn't true is where an opponent needs cantrips to find land. This means that…

- Trinisphere is just the worst Stifle/Wasteland ever. Really, if you want to manascrew people, why not at least play the good versions of the cards that manascrew people?


That written, I think that is 100% true...

Trinisphere was always the on/off card of this deck, but DS gets worse and worse as it gets in the lategame. We need to disrupt the opponent and kill them ASAP. That was the reason why Hellbent was in the deck, and that's the reason why we run ritual-effets like Seething Song. I still think Phyrexian evoker is a guy that needs to be maindecked, because his home is obviously in Ancient Tomb / Chalice decks. Other than that, I still like Instigator Gang, because it can easily help to generate big beats.

I can see Trinisphere in a land-destruction orientated DS Build, but these builds didn't work in the past, and I haven't seen any cards that improve the land-destruction-strategy in the last years so I see no reason in trying something like that again.

[ForlornEgoist]

I've actually been playing around with the idea of removing Trinisphere entirely from the deck. Originally in the Hellbent version I was running several years ago it was absolutely required as a lock piece. However, as our deck has evolved and Wizards has printed better pieces for our deck I've begun to question the absolute necessity of Trinisphere. More often than 'naught it is one of the other lock pieces that I require to disable the most prominent threats of an opponent. As the format has evolved I've noticed several decks which are upping standard curve of their deck to 2 or 3, thusly forcing Trinisphere to have less and less effect on the game state.

Currently my decklist features x3 Trinisphere and x4 Lodestone Golem. I've been finding that I want to cast 3sphere later and later in place of aggro or more effective locks T1/2 (Moltensteel/Batterskull/CotV/Moon/etc.) Thusly, unless I cast 3sphere in the first several turns it experiences greater and greater diminishing returns while only barely slowing down their tempo. Lodestone Golem (with the increase in average cmc) essentially fulfills the same locking mechanism as a 3sphere while also providing an efficient beater at any stage of the game.

The benefits of removing 3sphere become apparant in that we open slots so as to provide us with removal, meta slots, less dead drawss, etc. Of course I've still got much playtesting and tournament practice before I am ready to shed the 3sphere entirely, however I think it is a card that, like Hellbent, is becoming more and more like a suboptimal card to be running in our deck.

Forlorn Egoist

[Zirath]

I'd actually like to comment that I have not had some of the issues with 3Sphere that others observe. It is by no means bad and there are definitely games I have won on it's back, but the diminishing returns from it is huge. That has been an issue at times and there have been times where I've wanted Karn (creature) to help extra spheres get in there.

I have actually been more disillusioned by other aspects of the deck. In particular, I have found Seething Song and it's ilk and Phyrexian Revoker extremely underwhelming. Many times I actually don't want really want Song or the creatures that follow it.

Moons on the other hand have been consistently amazing for me. I went down to 7 but I might go back up to 8 honestly.

I am also currently being lazy with my sideboard and I ran the Painter's Stone suite (4 Painter, 4 Grindstone, 4 REB, 3 Pyro) and it was actually very successful. I have been boarding in all 15 cards in every match and so I am thinking of trying to fuse Imperial Painter and Dragon Stompy. Pit Dragon and Koth have still been very good for me, but the Painter's Stone win is very effective.

[0dysseus]

Chaos Warp seemed very good to me at first, but those slots push us on the defensive side. It serves me as a desperate solution against opponent locks or large creatures (or even a way to utilise a twin blood moon or on that fifth-sixth land). I think it's a little bit out of the main strategy. Of course it does help to remove the fetched singleton basics, but the result is unreliable, that's all.
I still like it though, and I'm trying to include 2 in my lists for now.

I want to try 3 Grafted Skullcap when I can (in a non/semi-hellbent list).

Whereas I like land-destruction ideas.. what do we do when Crucible of worlds / Life from the loam / Noble Hierarch / AEther Vials show up AND at the same time our MAIN plan is land-destruction?
Or even decks that can play around without needing lands necessarily? Revoker can't take care of all these things. Warp could help occasionally, but again, gifting a land when you play L-d is bad.

My suggestion there would be Pillage. Again, I think that the L-d thing can be countered more easily. Try and tell if it's really worth it, but if I were you, I'd also play 3 Pillage (and maybe Pyrokinesis).

[ForlornEgoist]

I'd actually like to comment that I have not had some of the issues with 3Sphere that others observe. It is by no means bad and there are definitely games I have won on it's back, but the diminishing returns from it is huge. That has been an issue at times and there have been times where I've wanted Karn (creature) to help extra spheres get in there.

I have actually been more disillusioned by other aspects of the deck. In particular, I have found Seething Song and it's ilk and Phyrexian Revoker extremely underwhelming. Many times I actually don't want really want Song or the creatures that follow it.

While yes, my arguments are directed more towards personal experience and my provincial metas, the general observations remain the same in that Trinisphere is a less backbreaking play than it was pre-Alara/WW. Before such sets the mana curve/acceleration seen in most decks was fairly low thus a T1 3sphere could be be as strong as a T1 Moon when the opponent opens with a handful of nonbasics. Indeed, there were many games where dropping that initial 3sphere literally meant a gg from my opponents several turns later.

What I'm arguing, however, is that while 3sphere is still incredibly reliable against combo as well as slowing the tempo of control/certain aggro, its not as powerful as it once was due to not only new forms of acceleration but a change in deck design which results in a higher mana curve. Hence, 3sphere (at least to me) seems suboptimal in comparision to Lodestone Golem because: A) They fulfill the exact saming locking mechanism, B) It provides us with a beater strong enough to kill 'Goyf, C) Doesn't experience diminishing returns, and D) Unlike 3sphere it's ability stacks. Honestly, the only major issue I've found with Lodestone is that he requires a change to a more artifact-heavy build which tbh is where I'm seeing most players head regardless. I'm not protesting to using 3sphere nor do I doubt what its done for our deck, I'm just trying to help develop new avenues to make our deck more effective.

In regards to Song/Revoker your issues are by no means beyond-the-pale. NecroYawgmoth/I invested much time in testing builds with and w/o 4 Songs and/or 4 Revoker. Ultimately, it depends on your playstyle. Most DS builds (esp. my artifact version) either focus on insanely high mana curves or have very few mid-late game plans and as such require the acceleration provided by Song. Remember, acceleration like SSG/Song aren't there because they're optimal at every point in the game (like Brainstorm). They're there because you want to accelerate out specific cards as soon as possible. Removing Songs is by no means a felonious act, however it weakens your ability to implement initial pressure as well as your ability to drop bombs like Arc Slogger or Akroma, Angel of Fury. Dragon Stompy's primary strength is our ability to drop insane pressure early game, so why weaken our only strength?

As for Revoker, like a broken record I continous advise people to use him according to your meta. In some metas he can be incredibly underwhelming (esp. if aggro is more prominent) while in metas like mine which see an average of 3-5 combo players with numerous Maverick/Bant players then MD Revoker is almost a must. Ultimately, you just need to use him according to your individual needs. It is my opinion (as well as what seems to be a consensus among most DS players) that 3-4 should be somewhere in your 75. Most of us are willing to not press the issue of where he belongs so long as you have access to him somehow as he does fulfill a unique and vital role.

Forlorn Egoist

[Zirath]

While yes, my arguments are directed more towards personal experience and my provincial metas, the general observations remain the same in that Trinisphere is a less backbreaking play than it was pre-Alara/WW. Before such sets the mana curve/acceleration seen in most decks was fairly low thus a T1 3sphere could be be as strong as a T1 Moon when the opponent opens with a handful of nonbasics. Indeed, there were many games where dropping that initial 3sphere literally meant a gg from my opponents several turns later.

What I'm arguing, however, is that while 3sphere is still incredibly reliable against combo as well as slowing the tempo of control/certain aggro, its not as powerful as it once was due to not only new forms of acceleration but a change in deck design which results in a higher mana curve. Hence, 3sphere (at least to me) seems suboptimal in comparision to Lodestone Golem because: A) They fulfill the exact saming locking mechanism, B) It provides us with a beater strong enough to kill 'Goyf, C) Doesn't experience diminishing returns, and D) Unlike 3sphere it's ability stacks. Honestly, the only major issue I've found with Lodestone is that he requires a change to a more artifact-heavy build which tbh is where I'm seeing most players head regardless. I'm not protesting to using 3sphere nor do I doubt what its done for our deck, I'm just trying to help develop new avenues to make our deck more effective.

In regards to Song/Revoker your issues are by no means beyond-the-pale. NecroYawgmoth/I invested much time in testing builds with and w/o 4 Songs and/or 4 Revoker. Ultimately, it depends on your playstyle. Most DS builds (esp. my artifact version) either focus on insanely high mana curves or have very few mid-late game plans and as such require the acceleration provided by Song. Remember, acceleration like SSG/Song aren't there because they're optimal at every point in the game (like Brainstorm). They're there because you want to accelerate out specific cards as soon as possible. Removing Songs is by no means a felonious act, however it weakens your ability to implement initial pressure as well as your ability to drop bombs like Arc Slogger or Akroma, Angel of Fury. Dragon Stompy's primary strength is our ability to drop insane pressure early game, so why weaken our only strength?

As for Revoker, like a broken record I continous advise people to use him according to your meta. In some metas he can be incredibly underwhelming (esp. if aggro is more prominent) while in metas like mine which see an average of 3-5 combo players with numerous Maverick/Bant players then MD Revoker is almost a must. Ultimately, you just need to use him according to your individual needs. It is my opinion (as well as what seems to be a consensus among most DS players) that 3-4 should be somewhere in your 75. Most of us are willing to not press the issue of where he belongs so long as you have access to him somehow as he does fulfill a unique and vital role.

Forlorn Egoist

I feel like the Lodestone Golem argument causes you to move towards MUD (which granted MUD with Blood Moon is a dream of mine). Thorn of Amethyst might be under serious consideration; I've definitely thought about it myself.

My issue with Song and "fatties" is that for me they have been winmore. Slogger has been under performing for me consistently and I am not excited by Akroma since I feel like her impact is underwhelming (though I haven't tried her). I have recently moved to primarily 4 drops, which are easily accessible without Song. I can (and have consistently) win enough games just by dropping a lock and folllowing it with Koth or Pit Dragon. Moltensteel has been okay, but I end up not liking how much pain he causes me at times.

I've found Revoker to be unsuccessful again Zoo, Junk, Bant, RUG, etc. He does not stop Knight or Goyf from beating down. This has consistently been an issue. DStompy (in my experience) has tons of trouble with a creature that can race with you. I have had board positions where Revokers jump in the way of Knights to keep my alive while I struggle to keep alive. I understand Revoker is powerful. I understand it can act like a lock piece, stopping an opponent. I just think that the current build I am looking at isn't working as well as I would like it to and Revoker is a card that has consistently underperformed for me.

[ForlornEgoist]

Hello, friends. Its been quite some time since our last post. I hope each person had a merry celebration of their respective holidays and traditions this past December/New Years. Let's get back into working on Dragon Stompy!

Dark Ascension is just over the horizon. I have seen numerous cards that could potentially fit into some of my other decks (like Rock/Deadguy) however no major cards that have thus far been revealed seem to be the 'Goyf or Delver Dragon Stompy requires to bring it out of the mucks. Regardless, I'll post 3 cards that have thus far been released that may be worth discussing and play testing.

-----------------------
Mondronen Shaman///Tovolar's Magehunter 3R
Creature - Human Werewolf Shaman
At the beginning of each upkeep, if no spells were cast last turn, transform Mondronen Shaman.
//
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, Tovolar's Magehunter deals 2 damage to that player. At the beginning of each upkeep, if a player cast two or more spells last turn, transform Tovolar's Magehunter.
3/2------5/5


Pyrehunter Wolf 2R
Creature - Wolf
Whenever Pyreheart Wolf attacks, each creature you control can't be blocked this turn except by two or more creatures.
Undying (When this creature dies, if it has no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)
1/1


Faithless Looting R
Sorcery
Draw two cards then discard two cards.
Flashback 2R
-----------------------

@ Shaman/Magehunter:

I'm not overly fond of transform cards as I dislike having a creature which fluctuates between a relevant and irrelevant board position, however as far as the werewolf-transform creatures go this one show some promise. While I dislike the condition of his to essentially force us to not cast a spell for the turn (as nearly any opponent is always going to cast at least 1 spell a turn) you get a 5/5 for you're troubles who in the worst of circumstances will snipe an opponent for 4 damage before transforming. He probably won't recieve much consideration for me. A transforming 3/2---5/5 is unreliable and honestly if I wanted to use burn in Dragon Stompy I'd just run Pyrostatic Pillar.

@ Pyrehunter:

This may actually be a notable card to playtest for our deck. Fits right into that ever-so-delicious 2R manacurve, and has a viable effect for our deck. In my opinion this may be more viable as a mid-late game finisher as he would enable use to push through that extra 1-2 creatures of damage, and especially when fighting decks like Bant that rely on 1-2 beaters to get the job done this guy can pretty much always assure we'll punch through a creature. Unfortunately, by himself he's not an amazing creature, and as such requires either equipment on him or another 2+ creatures on our side of the field for his ability to really be abused. I've begun relying more on Batterskull to get the job done, however for decks that opt more for Jitte/Swords then this guy may show some promise for you.

@ Faithless Looting:

This is the card I'm probably most excited to playtest of the 3. I know, how exciting can cantrips really be, right? Well, cantrips (or rather the lack thereof) are one of the greatest weaknesses of our deck. Mid-late game we have no gas. After we've locked down those initial threats and emptied our hand we then enter into topdeck mode to try and draw that beater which will win us the game. If you're luck is similar to mine then you always seem to draw mana accelerants like Mox/Song/SSG in such situations while they're dropping cantrips like Brainstorm and Ponder left and right. This would be a nice solution to our drawing dilemma, not to mention it has a flashback of 2R which is more than reasonable. Albeit CotV counters it, but in my opinion if a card provides a valuable enough effect its worth the risk. I've argued it for Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast and Pithing Needle and now I'm arguing it for this card.

Forlorn Egoist

[0dysseus]

Hello everyone, I wish a happy new year :cool:

Straight to the point: The undying guy needs another one to abuse like you said. Very conditional..like the transformer. Why not run Kargan dragonlord for evasion and Jaya Ballard for removal/sharpshooting? On top of Slogger / RPDs I mean..
Faithless looting is good but maybe not in DS. I won't reject it immediately. Seems useful when you play 1st turn moon and then you're stuck in 1-2 mana. But in case you want to play Chalice you lose a 1 mana spell. Plus it's sorcery.

Which leads me to my brand new experiment. 3 Bottled Cloister and no hellbent. You can get at 4 mana pretty easily. Once you get, you're often out of ammo. You sometimes struggle to keep hellbent and can't search/draw more than 1 card per round. If your locks and so-called early pressure fail, then you're on your knees begging Lady Luck.

Drew Levin wrote about an idea concerning Ensnaring Bridge and Koth in DS. Bridge and Bottle are good when paired. Goblin Assault is good with Jitte, and again, both are good with Bridge, since you can pump those gobbos after they pass the bridge. To cut a long story short, I'm trying this:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Mountain

4 Chrome Mox

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage OR 2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Siege-Gang Commander, OR 2 Rakdos Pit Dragon, OR 2 Akroma, Angel of Fury (or split)

3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Seething Song
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Goblin Assault
3 Bottled Cloister
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Chaos Warp

SB:
--
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Blood Moon
4 Trinisphere
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 Words of War

A more controlish version that could prove funny of course. I prefer S-G Commander in this list, not Slogger (sob!)
After a quick test, Bottled Cloister could be the droids we are looking for.

Oh, and:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asd0tidUmXGrdERlc3AxemFITWhFT0V4SHNHOUk3X2c&hl=en_US

Not 100% sure if this guy's correct, I may re-check the tables (if I get a good degree in Statistics on the next exam).

PS: Somebody please remind me how to write the cards' names so that the reader can immediately see their pictures (moving the cursor on the name). Thank you.

[ForlornEgoist]

In regards to Faithless Looting I honestly don't think it'll fit in DS, however of the cards revealed thus far I believe it to be the most promising. I still plan to playtest it, but I doubt I'll receive many positive results.

Card tags is [ cards ] Text [ / cards ] minus the spaces. Just put the first tag at the beginning of the decklist and the 2nd at the end of the decklist.

I must admit your build is quite intruging. The Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge seems like it'd be great in my aggro-heavy meta, although the rest of the deck seems a tad too control for my taste. I may still test some of its elements, however, and maybe alter a few card choices.

Forlorn Egoist

[0dysseus]

Played some more games lately. I have a question about Ensnaring Bridge and Instigator Gang // Wildblood Pack. And I'm sure you have guessed what I'm about to ask.

Can the rest of our small guys attack and get the pumping +1/+0 or the +3/+0?
My problem is that Gang reads: "Attacking creatures you control get +1/+0." In contradiction with, lets say Exalted, which reads: "Whenever a creature you control attacks alone..."

"Whenever, When, At" mean triggered ability. So Exalted works with Bridge. However I'm not dead sure about Gang.
I found this: http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/forums/messages.aspx?TopicID=2155
but I'd like to double-check that it works. I don't have time to research this thing more, if someone knows, please tell me.

Changes to my previous list: I maxed the Bottled Cloisters to 4, Seething Songs also became 4 (so I can play Cloister, "twin locks", or Chalice @ 2 as fast as I can). Took out the Jittes and the Siege-gang Commanders, and added 4 Instigator Gangs.

More thoughts / conclusions:

The deck must be able to function without combos. Cloister is good even without bridge. It can save your ass when all you produce is four colorless mana -after that 1st turn chalice- and you need red fast. It practically doubles/triples... the incoming threats once resolved. It makes you immune to discard. And it works well with bridge on top of that. A one turn investment that start repaying with card advantage the turn after. I really love it.

While I love Arc-Slogger, I don't think it will work well with Bottled Cloister. The card drawing can reduce the damage it will deal (ups, only 39 cards left) and it could lead to library death. Siege Gang-Commander needs Goblin Assault to push through fast, and as I said, I don't want something in my deck to be able to work only as a combo. I could be wrong about Commander, but for now he is out. I'm considered about Engineered Plague too, and so I don't want to over-specialise in Goblins.

While bridge safeguards you from any huge attacker, it doesn't stop you from attacking. You can keep one or two cards in hand. All your guys pass through. I really hope I'm correct about the Gang thing. If yes, these 2/x weenies, or Goblin token armies can really push through opponent defences helped by transformed Gang or Jaya, while the bridge protects you. And a bunch of 5/2's or 4/1's is troublesome, even without bridge. Those guys can defeat Batterskulls.

Of course things like Firespout are catastrophic, but Cloisters and Goblin Assaults help you recover. A well placed Firespout could kill the RPDs and 1/2 of the times Gathan Raiders as well.

Gang is heavy, with or without bridge, with or without weenies to pump.

If I wanted to add something more right now, that would be more pushing power / unblockability / direct damage that could work with bridge. I'm satisfied about speed, locks, and card drawing. But I don't know what to take out. Maybe Jaya, but she is good when you draw like mad, and with Cloisters and songs you can even reach 7 mana to use the third ability.

An idea that just came to me is 1-2 Molten-Tail Masticore , which could open the way too for your attackers -and deal direct artifact damage to a player- even if it's not attacking. With hellbent out you can keep two cards in hand and do the trick. The upkeep discard can feed its second ability, if you discard creatures. With 2x Jaya out, the red-spell count for Moxes is 22. [With her in your 60, that's 24.]

I know I test only a little, so don't take my words too seriously. But I don't want to give a straight list only. I want to give some justification too. So far this works for me.

[Wereodile]

I am considering building Dragon Stompy again after looking at some of the DTB, former DTB (mainly U/R Delver) and Burn which has come on over the last couple of months.

I believe with the lack of hard counters, spot removal and very low mana curves (3 at most) in these tempo based decks allows both Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void to get max value. I will include my list below and I have a couple questions regarding a couple of creatures in the deck.

//Dragon Stompy\\

//Creatures// [21]

4x Flametongue Kavu
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Moltensteel Dragon
2x Instigator Gang/Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs/Falkenrath Marauders

//Spells// [19]

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Seething Song
3x Blood Moon
3x Trinisphere
2x Batterskull

//Land// [19]

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain

//SIDEBOARD//

3x Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Pyroblast
3x Volcanic Fallout
3x Tomod's Crypt

I am trying to figure out which one of these creatures will give maximum value

First - Instigator Gang - Even without being flipped it's a decent size and helps pump other attacking creatures and hopefully once the lock is in place flipping him over to Wildblood Pack shouldn't take long and once flipped should end things in fine fashion.

Second - Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs - Bigger body which helps dodge Bolts and keeps smaller attackers at bay plus the extra free 3/3 blocker will often come in handy.

Third - Falkenrath Marauders - My least favorite choice but the haste and flying are both relevant and can grow without the additional input of mana.

My Final questions is Ratchet Bomb vs. Powder Keg, is Ratchet Bomb ability to hit enchantments worth running it over Powder Keg as they both gain counters at the same speed.

Thanks in advance!

[lambert101]

My werewolves list in a dragon stompy shell....just an idea let me know what you think. Side is made against aggro and graveyard based decks. Sword of light and shadow for card advantage and pro swords to plowshares.


11 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb


4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 chrome mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mondronen Shaman
4 Hanweir Watchkeep
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Taurean Mauler
3 kruin outlaw

Sideboard:
4 Pyroblast
4 Steam blast
4 tormod's crypt
3 ratchet bomb

[Wereodile]

My werewolves list in a dragon stompy shell....just an idea let me know what you think. Side is made against aggro and graveyard based decks. Sword of light and shadow for card advantage and pro swords to plowshares.

My only problem with a high density of flip cards is that if you do not get the lock down your opponent can change their play style and keep you off the hot sauce.

I have also had a thought that Steel Hellkite is a way better choice then Moltensteel Dragon as it helps us with clearing out offending permanents pre-board, starts with a bigger body, has a more efficient pump and plays nice with Lodestone Golem.

[1337erhosen]

Despite very little tournament success in recent years, I'm taking this deck to GP Indy on Saturday. The meta seems really weak to Chalice at 1 and mana bases seem greedy as ever. Here's my list if you guys want to make any final comments. I know some people are leaning towards artifact or werewolf builds, but the old Hellbent build has been most reliable so I'm sticking with it.

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Taurean Mauler
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Lord of Shatterskull Pass

4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

SB
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Manic Vandal

Some notes on choices:
Taurean Mauler isn't totally standard, but if that guy shows up in the early game you can just ride him to victory. No 5 Drops means I can mostly play two 3 drops off of a turn 2 Seething Song, which is the tempo you actually want to get early Hellbent. Lord of Shatterskull Pass has over performed in testing and trumps Batterskull in the late game. One sided Inferno is pretty sick against the format.

The sideboard is not closely tested, but it's pretty flexible to accommodate for the wide open meta of a GP.
Basic sideboard plan is:
Revokers, Jitte, and Vandals come in against Maverick
Jaya, Ratched Bomb, and Jitte come in against RUG Delver
Jaya against UW Stoneforge

Please feel free to comment on my list and wish me luck in reviving this archetype.

[GoldenCid]

I like your reasoning for playing thos deck. But I dislike the full sets format it has. I'd cut one mauler and a couple of masters in favour of jitte and sword of fire and ice.
On the side, I think that boil and anarchy are very great and needed cards.

[Wereodile]

@1337erhosen: I love this deck and when I played the Hellbent version I included Tauren Mauler as a 3 of and loved it. I believe that "Prison" style decks are very strong in this meta and really punish the tempo decks which have started to drop FoW. That really limits their ability to interact with us much beyond a successful turn 1-2.

Is Ratchet Bomb better then Powder Keg? They seem to be functionally the same. I am also unsure what GY hate I should be playing, right now I have Tomod Crypt, Ravenous Trap and Leyline of the Void Any other I should be considering?

[Mr. Safety]

Powder Keg is superior in a metagame that expects Affinity...it rapes their lands right alongside their zero cost dudes. Ratchet Bomb, on the other hand, deals with enchantments and PW's (if given long enough.) I would say it's a metagame call.

[ForlornEgoist]

Is Ratchet Bomb better then Powder Keg

In my opinion, yes. The main weakness of RB is that it forces you to tap for charge counters, meaning if you opt to add a counter an opponent can then destroy the RB before you have a chance to pop it. Beyond Krosan Grip (which hardly sees play in the current tempo meta) there are very few cards we have to watch out that can punish this limitation of RB. In exchange you gain the ability to nix Enchantments which, in my opinion, is a well-worth trade. The only major benefit to Keg is that it hits Artifact lands which, considering the lack of Affinity in th vast majority of metas, isn't all that relevant.

As far as GY hate is concerned I've usually found Tormod's Crypt to be all thats really required.

Forlorn Egoist

[Wereodile]

In my opinion, yes. The main weakness of RB is that it forces you to tap for charge counters, meaning if you opt to add a counter an opponent can then destroy the RB before you have a chance to pop it. Beyond Krosan Grip (which hardly sees play in the current tempo meta) there are very few cards we have to watch out that can punish this limitation of RB. In exchange you gain the ability to nix Enchantments which, in my opinion, is a well-worth trade. The only major benefit to Keg is that it hits Artifact lands which, considering the lack of Affinity in th vast majority of metas, isn't all that relevant.

As far as GY hate is concerned I've usually found Tormod's Crypt to be all thats really required.

Forlorn Egoist

TY That was great! (you too Mr.Safety) My only hesitation with the GY hate was the zero casting cost on Tomods in case a Chalice needs to go down at zero.

[Mr. Safety]

Red Chalice decks are tricky to work grave hate into, honestly. The other good hate options are mostly at :1: (Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus, I'll mention Nihil Spellbomb but it's usually worse than Tormod's Crypt in a non-black deck)

I've been testing out Ravenous Trap lately...and I've been pretty happy with it (not in Dragon Stompy specifically, just in general as a free grave-hate alternative to TCrypt.) It takes care of Dredge just fine (and it's free but a converted cost of 4, dodging your Chalices nicely. Trinisphere is still an issue though...) and I've found that it has application against storm decks using Past in Flames as well.

Your last option seems to be Bojuka Bog. There are a slew of non-red, non-artifact options, but most aren'te even worth mentioning.

In a nutshell, it depends on if you ever sideboard out your Trinispheres. If you do, bring in Ravenous Trap and/or Tormod's Crypt. I'm guessing the answer is no...which makes me think that Tormod's Crypt is the best option. How often do you put Chalice @0?

[Wereodile]

Red Chalice decks are tricky to work grave hate into

I've been testing out Ravenous Trap lately...and I've been pretty happy with it (not in Dragon Stompy specifically, just in general as a free grave-hate alternative to TCrypt.) It takes care of Dredge just fine (and it's free but a converted cost of 4, dodging your Chalices nicely. Trinisphere is still an issue though...) and I've found that it has application against storm decks using Past in Flames as well.

In a nutshell, it depends on if you ever sideboard out your Trinispheres. If you do, bring in Ravenous Trap and/or Tormod's Crypt. I'm guessing the answer is no...which makes me think that Tormod's Crypt is the best option. How often do you put Chalice @0?

Not a lot of reason to put the chalice @0 just more of a hypothetical situation.

My only concern with Trap was that decks like Reanimator (and Dredge to some extent) can just play around the Trap and really nullifies it. I am definitely looking for an option which removes the entire GY as opposed to Faerie Macabre like effects.

Tomods Crypt it is then!

Again thanks for your input!

[Mr. Safety]

One last thought: I definately like Crypt better than Leyline of the Void. Leyline will increase your mulligan rate (which is already kinda high with stompy decks as-is) and if you have a solid opener with Ancient Tomb/Chalice/Trini, you can still have great odds against the graveyard decks, buying you time to draw into your Crypts. Dredge doesn't play many spells, but they usually will need to play some (Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Dread Return) Occasionally they'll just dredge, rip some Narcos, and reanimate a FKZ or other big threat FTW before you get anything online. The LED versions are the ones that are nigh-too-fast for you to hate out, but I haven't heard about LED Drege in a while. Does it get play in your area?

[MaximumC]

So I've skimmed the thread, and I'm wondering what can be done to push this deck to competitiveness. The design philosophy so far, of dropping a lock, slowing em down, and dropping a bomb is a good one. It seems like the deck really only gets in trouble when the opponent either stops your initial few plays and you run out of gas (Merfolk countering your Trinishpere and Chalice) or where you're overwhelmed before you can shut the door (Affinity).

Seems like the deck need to keep it's foot on the gas and have a way to address a losing board state. That could be mass wipe (Powder Keg and Ratchet Bomb keep coming up) or it could be an oops-I-win condition that makes the board irrelevant.

What solves these problems in color? As to the first problem, I wonder if Faithless Looting might be a possibility. It replaces the two worst cards in your hand plus the top two cards in your library, twice. The flashback cost is easy to manage off of Cities and Tombs. It doesn’t interact very well with Chalice at 1, sadly, which seems like the biggest strike against it. Burning Inquiry and Desperate Ravings seem worse. Control of the Court and Goblin Lore seem too unpredictable. Since Red seems like it has poor options here, I get why people are going to things like Bottled Cloister. But Cloister is slow and doesn’t do anything in the meantime.

This is heretical, but bear with me. What if you dipped into Black? This makes Dark Confidant, Graveborn Muse, and Sarkhan the Mad available. All of these are decent draw engines that have alternative uses if you’re not out of gas, and only require a single black mana to cast. Confidant might not be the best pick here, since he’s so painful in a deck with high casting costs, but his power can’t be denied. The other two are realistic two or three drops given all of the Cities and Tombs you run.

Consider something like this list as a 75 card pool, some of which would be in the SB:


Lock Pieces (16) (core of the deck)
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

Acceleration (15)
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox

Beatz (10) (weighted towards Dragons for the “oops I win” with Sarkhan)
4 Garthan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Moltensteel Dragon

Card Advantage (5)
3 Graveborn Muse (Seems better than Confidant in this deck)
2 Sarkhan the Mad (card engine or “oops I win” with dragons)

Removal (16)
3 Powder Keg
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Faerie Macabre // Grafdigger’s Cage (yard hate, season to meta. Cage is better against Prog)
3 Shattering Spree
3 Stingscourger (deals with Emrakul)

Lands (15)
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa / Wooded Foothills / Scalding Tarn
4 Swamp
3 Mountain


The concept here is to retain the same playstyle as old school Dragon Stompy, but add some additional reach without sacrificing quality. Because you want to find a swamp and a mountain early, it’s got more land that other builds. However, the change in draw quality from adding 2 lands is (maybe?) overcome by adding a draw engine to the deck.

I’ve tried to come up with mana base that works with the small black splash and is still resilient to Wasteland. The problem (as you all know) is that dropping a Moon effect shuts off fetches and dual lands. If you land a Simian+Tomb into first turn Magus, now you cannot get black off of non-basics. But, here’s the thing. If you live the dream this way, you’re probably winning pretty hard already. One of two things is gonna happen. Either your opponent is gonna destroy the Moon effect, giving you a window to collect your black, or they will play through it, but slowly, giving you time to naturally draw into a swamp. Remember, the black cards in this deck are NOT early game plays. They are for gassing up or winning out of nowhere in the late game.

The other question is whether the draw engines work well or badly with Hellbent. Ideally, Garthan Raiders and Chrome Mox give you a way to dump your hand if you really want to. Late game, with all the mana this deck deploys, I would imagine you can cast cards as you draw them. Having too many options is a good thing. On the other hand, getting stuck with a black card in your hand and not being able to activate Rakdos could really suck.

You are, of course, vulnerable to Stifle in this build, but not really wasteland.

What do you think?

[Wereodile]

I think the strength in this deck is the redundancy and the more you can trim the deck down to it's bare bones (Lock & Beats) the better the chance we have of implementing our plan which is to punish the low CMC of the current meta and punch some face and I do not think going into a separate color is the best option imho .

I can see where you are coming from though, sometimes you nail the lock and then you can't draw any gas and give your opponent a chance to "break" the lock. My suggestion is to go heavy on planeswalkers as a way to ensure you always applying some sort of pressure also not the easiest permanent type to deal with. Let's see who we have here...

Chandra Ablaze - Pricey but not really an issue with this deck, easily the best Chandra but the other two have their merits as well.

Koth of the Hammer - This is who I would have to go with, all three abilities are relevant the first two can also help ramp up into more lock pieces or threats.

Karn Liberated - Bit of a stretch but also helps strengthen the prison plan

Just a couple of thoughts, keep brewing!

[NecroYawgmoth]

I dont think black is the way to go with that deck. I also don't think you want to play overpriced cards like Chandra or Karn... I mean 7 mana... wtf Koth is the best of the Walkers, but I don't think that he is good enough because he cant Protect himself.

Werewolfs are IMO the way to go with the deck. They provide fast Aggro, and with all our lockpieces, the opponent shouldn't be able to flip them. A flipped Instigator Gang should be a huge + for us... even Revokers and Magus does big beats then. Throw in a few equipments and give that build a try.


Lock
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Beatz
4 Hanweir Watchkeep
4 Instigator Gang
3 Mondronen Shaman
1 Batterskull

Utility
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

I have no clue about the Sideboard, but I still think Tormod's Crypt is better than Grafdiggers Cage. You want to play CotV1 against Dredge as soon as possible, and a opening with Crypt into Trinisphere is also pretty much GG if you know how to time your hate. Sry for not dating up the OP in a long time, but I rarely play the deck, nowadays, and the inconstance just annoys me. :rolleyes:


regards, Necro

[ForlornEgoist]

Well, as I've been having some rather positive results with my artifact-based Dragon Stompy build I figured I'd post it. You'll notice I haven't made any outlandish card choices, however, its different from the builds most players have been running. The following list is one I'm currently running and, unless I come across any new revelations in my playtesting, will be the list I plan to take with me to the Starcity Games Legacy Invitational Qualifier at Legion Games in Burnsville April 22nd (pending I don't chicken out at the last second and take my Enchantress deck instead :p):


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Mox Opal
2 Batterskull
3 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Blood Moon

4 Seething Song

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Etched Champion
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury

1 Blood Moon
3 Anarchy
3 Shattering Spree
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Pyroblast
First and foremost we'll take a look at the addition of Lodestone Golem. A few pages back I gave a brief description as to the pros/cons of Trinisphere vs [/cards]Lodestone Golem[/cards].

Trinisphere Pros/Cons
+ Fits nicely into the original 3cc curve.
+ Realistically can be cast Turn 1-2 consistently.
+ Only suceptible to artifact hate which is never MD and is only ever SB depending on deck and meta.
+ Hoses "free," spells (Force of Will/Daze/Pact of Negation, etc.).
- Useless in multiples; doesn't stack.
- Does nothing to affect present board state.
- Much weaker against decks with higher-than-average mana curves or with access to greater pools of mana (Merfolk Fish, Zoo, Aggro Loam, etc.).

Lodestone Golem Pros/Cons
+ Sitting at a 5/3 body allows to easily deal with most creatures in the format or punch through critical damage.
+ Abilities stack.
+ Reasonably cast off 2 Sol lands or varying accelerants.
- Being a creature makes it suceptible to mainstream hate (Swords to Plowshare/Path to Exile//Burn).
- At 3 toughness can be answered quite readily by creatures popular in the current meta ([cards]Delver of Secrets, KotR, Equipped creatures).

These are just a few bullet points but essentially what my playtesting presented was that while 3sphere was amazing for those initial several turns where it extremely limited an opponents ability to cast their spells (as well as long turn damaging a blue player's ability to keep reserve mana for counters) 3spheres inability to do anything to the board state as well as being redundant in multiples made it quite lackluster, particularly when faced against decks like UR Delver that aim to finish the game asap with 4 efficient creatures, burn, and counter back-up.
Contrariwise, Lodestone Golem resolved all the weaknesses encountered by 3sphere. Unlike 3sphere its abilities do, in fact, stack. Having a 5/3 body means that even costing 4 mana makes its an efficient beater. Not to mention that mid-late game its still a useful topdeck to have as it providing a locking mechanism plus a creature all-on-one. The primary weakness with Lodestone is its suceptibiltiy to creature-based hate which, imo, is a reasonable trade for the utilities he provides.
In my playtesting atm I've discovered that although my theorycraft suggested 3sphere should be removed if Lodestone is in the deck, the testing has shown that 3sphere/Lodestone work quite nicely together in the deck. By this I don't mean to imply they have inherent synergy however have repetition with the locking mechanism of higher-casting spells not only further increases our chances to initially lock out an opponent in the early game, but as this build has a higher flux of artifacts/cc neither locking piece hurts us. I am still convinced that the 3sphere in this build is a meta/flex spot and often times I end up siding out my 3spheres when I feel they aren't warranted.

Next, we'll look at Etched Champion.
This card I've been having mixed results. The most common utility I've used him for was being able to negate nearly every creature on my opponents field. As Metalcraft is quite easy to obtain with this build Champion essentially becomes the best blocker one can have. He is able to readily answer Goyf/KotR/Equipped creatures, and being an Artifact himself means an opponent can't use Mom in response to him being declared a blocker. The added bonus with Champion (and probably the most smug feeling I get from the entire deck) is equipping him with either Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte and swinging directly at their dome. Not to mention, of course, his 3cc.
Now we'll look at his primary downside. Although I've never had issues getting Metalcraft this weakness does still exist so it requires noting. Unless you have Metalcraft hes just a vanilla 2/2. Even with Metalcraft sitting on a 2/2 body means hes pretty much always going to be a reserved blocker as even in best of circumstance you don't want to give your opponent that much of a clock to answer him. I am still in the early phases of testing him as a creature, so I will post more results once I have them. Currently hes fulfilling the x4 deck slots which until now have been reserved for Lord of Shatterskull Pass.

Next, Akroma, Angel of Fury.
Her addition is primarily a choice based on personal flavor. Shes a great mid-late game card, essentially immune to all removal once morphed, and works as a grreat finisher. Back in the days when Counterbalance was more prevalent I would run her at x2 or so. In the current metas she really isn't necessary. I would highly suggest players use this spot as an extra flex spot as her inclusion is entirely based on personal preference rather than practical application.

x2 Batterskull, x3 Umezawa's Jitte.

You'd think with Etched Champion I'd want to abuse more Swords such as Sword of Body and Mind. While the respective swords are useful, I consider Batterskull/Umezawa's Jitte to be the most efficient for our deck. Batterskull, obviously recovers our life quite fast while also providing Vigilance to make any creature double as both an attacker and a blocker. Jitte, again obviously, recovers life and, as is the more relevant ability, our main source removal. I used to rely on Flametongue Kavu for removal however being a creature itself and requiring a target means its much more limited in this capacity. Lets face it, a Jitte on any creature automatically makes that Jitte/creature a threat that needs to be answered.
I'd like to include more Batterskull however my deck already has an insanely high curve and I can't justify the extra slot. I'll leave it to each DS player to determine their equipment however with the new creatures we've gotten in the last few sets as well as Batterskull, having a token as well as static pro U/G seems less relevant. I honestly think that these two equipments are most ideal for our deck.

Only x2 Blood Moon.
Many DS players are apprehensive to go belower 7-8 Moon effects however with the current DTB's Moon effects have become less back-breaking than before. UR Delver, although being slowed down slightly by a Moon (as it shuts off the U from Volcanics meaning its harder to flash in Snapcaster; also it negates Price of Progress which some builds run). ultimately Moon doesn't hurt them. Moon effects are conveinant for shutting of Waste/Maze as run by Bant/Maverick decks, being G/W-G/W/U as well as running Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch means they'll never be shut off from their colored mana of choice. True, Moon can hose some combo decks, but CotV/3sphere are much more efficient at doing that.
Moon, imo, is ALWAYS a meta-lock, never a "ALWAYS include in deck," like Chalice or 3sphere. I'm not advocating removing Moon effects as of yet nor am I suggesting relying soley on just 4-5 moon effects to do the job, however, this deck, with the addition of better creatures, doesn't need to rely quite so heavily on shutting down our opponent to win a game.

And now to the SB, specifically, Pyroblast.

Now, SB's are, of course, used to resolve MU's for your meta so I won't discuss what should go here. In general I consider my SB to be well-versed to dealing with a great majority of problem-decks as well as being somewhat ideal for unknown metas.
x1 Moon- Easily a flex spot, but on ocassion I like increasing their number to help shore up certain MU's with greedy mana bases such as Rock.
x3 Anarchy- Answer KotR, Mom, Progenitus, etc. NO-Prog is less common in the current metas, but especially against decks like Maverick being able to clear all relevant creatures on their side (ie. Mom/KotR/Stoneforge/Qasali) is nothing to snuff at.
x3 Shattering Spree- The applications are quite obvious as with Replication it can punch through counters to destroy problematic artifacts (which in most cases is equipment). Another card that my receive playtesting for this build (and one I've had great success in my SFM-Rock build) is Manriki-Gusari.
x4 Phyrexian Revoker- As I've always said this cards needs to be in the 75 card list of Dragon Stompy, however it being MD or SB is based on metas. My meta doesn't warrant it MD, so here it is in the SB.
x4 Pyroblast- This is a card of which I honestly believe DS builds neglect to take advantage. For a pittance one mana investment you can insta-kill any Merfolk Lord, Jace 2.0, or, as is often times the more relevant application, counter an opponents counterspell. Yes, there is an obvious antisynergy with CotV however the strengths you gain with Pyroblast far outweight those random instances when you have a CotV @ 1 and can't cast the Pyroblast. Note that its probably smart to do a 2-2 split of Red Elemental Blast-Pyroblast however as cards like Nevermore/Meddling Mage/Extirpate/Surgical Extraction are next to nonexistent in my metas, and as its unlikely that an opponent will pick [cards]Pyroblast[/cards[ to name, I've decided that I would prefer to keep the card with the cooler picture (It has a dragon! :D).

Well, thats all I have for now. I'd love to post newer or grander ideas/evolutions for the deck but as there has been a very small and select card pool from the newer sets that we could possibly use it has been difficult.

@ MaximusC: I just now saw you had made a post for a possible BR build you were going to playtest. I've never made a build like that myself, so I'll plan on doing some theorycrafting with ya after I take a break. For some reason I decide to hit the wrong button when writing this post thus scrolling away from the page and forcing me to rewrite it. -.-'

@ NecroYawg: I know its still early but how has your playtesting with the werewolves gone? When they were first revealed I worked out several lists that resolved around them but ultimately I opted to explore my artifact build more.


EDIT: I apologize if my post looks awkward. Apparantly The Source is having some issues as some of the errors (like entire paragraphs with card tags) that are appearing on the post don't show up in the Edit box. I'll plan on bumping this thread once again once The Source fixes the problems its having.

Forlorn Egoist

[lordofthepit]

Dragon Stompy looks really well-positioned right now. Or rather, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, and Magus of the Moon look really good right now, especially if you can also jam in Lodestone Golem as well.

However, most of the red creatures in the format are embarrassing. Magus, Gathan Raiders, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, and Simian Spirit Guide are autoincludes. Running Lodestone Golem and Phyrexian Revoker would be great, but that severely hurts the red count for Chrome Mox. Arc-Slogger is a beast when it hits, but I'd like to avoid 5-drops in a deck that already has consistency issues. I'm thinking the next best options include Flametongue Kavu, Taurean Mauler, and maybe Kazuul or Lord of Shatterskull Pass. Has anyone had luck with Moltensteel Dragon or Slash Panther? They synergize well with both Chrome Mox and Lodestone Golem. Phyrexian Metamorph may be an option as well.

Edit: Has anyone tried Avalanche Riders to blow up the opponent's only basic land? Seems sweet.

[0dysseus]

Hey guys. I participated in 3 tournaments, and I earned a very bad rank in all 3.

The mistakes I did that helped toward this were:

1) More theorycrafting than testing! I know I won't do good again, if I keep planning more than I test. And it is only natural that I did serious play mistakes, due to less practice.

2) Having less threats. The lock pieces are not an omnipotent solution. They cannot deal damage. The threats do that. If I could play with 30 creatures in DS, I'd happily do it. Maybe the best thing to do about topdeck mode, and the luck factor in MtG is more threats (that you can cast in time).

3) Playing an aggressive deck in a defensive manner. Maindeck 4x Ensnaring bridge seemed good at first, but Spiral tide, Burn, and Enchantress' - Aggro Loam's Seismic Assault didn't care about it.
I'm beginning to understand that damn sentence Taco and Yawg posted over and over: "We are the aggro deck." It seems to me now that the most important element in this deck is speed, even more important than the lockpieces. I understood the value of the 4 Seething Songs.
I think a Dragon Stompy player should play like a samurai who (once engaged) wants to draw and deliver only one deadly blow if he can -OR the fewer the better!!- and end the battle quickly.
If we overspecialise in disabling those duals, I think we're done for.

4) Bad luck. Which is an element I accept. Even the best players are not immune to bad luck, when playing MtG. (Wizards, it's a 19 year old game. Please, do something about manascrew and manaflood. At least make happy mulligan official in all tournaments).

Forlorn Egoist, nice post. My problem with your list is that Mox Opal can't make the: Mountain, Mox -> Chalice opening. Plus that it's Legendary, and I want 4 moxes. Plus that I won't give more money for moxes (kidding:))
Also Blood moon doesn't disable Price of Progress . A nonbasic land under Blood Moon is still a nonbasic land ( - Mountain). BM affects only the subtype of the land, not the type, or supertype (or name).

For example, Flagstones of Trokair will read:

Flagstones of Trokair:

Legendary (non-basic) Land - Mountain

Legendary and non-basic are the supertypes of the card. Land is the type. Mountain is the subtype.

I think I'd surely play Etched champion in a artifact build.

Currently I'm testing a hellbent list and a non-hellbent. I'll simply choose the fastest one in the end. The non-hellbent list has 4x Instigator Gang, 4x Trinisphere and Kargan/Lord "levelers". I want to do something on the turn that I don't play spells, waiting for werewolf to transform. Leveling up is a choice. So is equipping.

The good thing with Instigator Gang is that he proves many a time faster than the hellbent dudes. And while Trinisphere makes it harder to maintain hellbent and pump the dragons, the Gang is helped by Trinisphere. We'll see who proves better.

The other list plays with the 8 hellbent guys, 1 Moltensteel Dragon and 2 Kargan Dragonlord. (The Molten-Kargan play on the first list as well).
I try to follow Francesco Dalla Via's model: https://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=28914 .
That is: cheaper, efficient solutions. If we can build without a single round of uncastability issues, let's do it. So I'd play 1-2 jitte in a hellbent list, and I'd prefer 0-2 Arc-sloggers.

At the same time, about 2 years ago(?), Mink played 23 threats, hellbent and Sloggers, but also played 11 mountains. http://www.mtgoacademy.com/going-for-the-throat-dragon-stompy-a-grand-prix-and-the-mtgo-classic-format/
He wanted to support his more mana expensive version with the addition of a mountain.

In my opinion, an element that made both lists successful (after the castability element) is:
the inclusion of cards that offer board control, and a fast winning condition, all in one. 3x Jitte in the first case and 4x Arc-Slogger in the second. They both have the steam to clear the board. If the board doesn't need to be cleared, then both cards can redirect this steam right onto the opponent's life marking sheet.

One more note on Francesco's list. Maybe Seething Song is at its best when you can play two things with it. Turn one Kargan Dragonlord and Blood Moon. Turn one Chalice and Mauler. Turn one Blood Moon & Revoker. Turn two Mauler and Kargan, after a t1 lockpiece, etc..
It's harder for the opponent to counter or deal with both of those two pieces. While it's easier to play Dismember on just one. Okay, Firespout , I know. It's still harder though.

Forlorn Egoist, one more thing: There is a difference between Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast.

Pyroblast can target any permanent, and after that, if that permanent is blue, it is destroyed. That is something useful when you want to get rid of Pyro in order to get hellbent, and the opponent is playing a blue deck without blue permanents.

REB on the other hand can only target a blue permanent, which means the opponent (let's say Hivemind) won't redirect it on any other permanent via Misdirection .

Google it for more info and make your pick bro:D

I use Arc-slogers in that non-hellbent list. If I finally use only two, maybe they will be Siege-Gang Commander, who can toss Maulers too. Again, that will depend on which is really faster.

To all of the Werewolf lovers out there. Using transformed Kruin Outlaw for semi-unblockability also helps your Taurean Maulers out. Think about it.

So, I'm trying to build the fastest Dragon Stompy ever, without sentimental attachments to any of my favorite good-looking cards. Let's just be efficient to the max, gentlemen.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Odysseus: BM DOES affect Price of Progress. The only thing BM can't affect is supertypes (Legendary/Artifact Lands) thus Tomb/City/Dual lands are all considered "basic lands," under BM, and thusly they don't get checked by Price. This holds true for anything else which checks/targets nonbasics.
W
In regards to Pyro vs REB you're right. That oracle is essentially never relevant for me so I always forget that. Thanks for correcting me.

@ LordofthePit:
Hellbent creatures aren't auto-includes by any means. Yea, before Lord of SP/Moltensteel/Lodestone were printed Hellbent was the only way to go, but to be honest for the investments you make in both creatures I consider them subpar to our other options. Sometimes I honestly like being able to hold on to lock pieces, or extra creatures, when I consider the opponent about to drop a bomb/board sweep.

As for Flametongue Kavu The issue with him is that by himself hes just a vanilla 4/2 which means he can't kill a majority of problem "beasties." His ability, while 4 damage is nothing to snuff at, REQUIRES a target, meaning if hes the only creature or if your opponent has no creatures you have to target something of yours which is troublesome.

In regards to Moltensteel Dragon pretty much every DS, I believe, has realized his power. He is what replaces the Rakdos. 4 life is very reasonable, he costs 4 colorless so he can be cast off 2 sol lands so its that much easier to accel him out than Rakdos and unlke Rakdos he only requires that initial investment. Honestly you could run 4 of him (I am) and you'd still be fine.

For removal Umezawa's Jitte is probably the best imo.

Revoker pretty much needs to be a 4-of, MD or SB dependant on your meta.

I gotta go. I'm sure someone else can answer any other questions, otherwise I'll be back and give a better in depth analysis later.

Forlorn Egoist

[0dysseus]

@ Odysseus: BM DOES affect Price of Progress. The only thing BM can't affect is supertypes (Legendary/Artifact Lands) thus Tomb/City/Dual lands are all considered "basic lands," under BM, and thusly they don't get checked by Price. This holds true for anything else which checks/targets nonbasics.
W
In regards to Pyro vs REB you're right. That oracle is essentially never relevant for me so I always forget that. Thanks for correcting me.


You're welcome mate:)

As for Price of Progress, I only wish it was so..

"212.6e If an effect changes a land’s type to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.


212.6f Any land with the supertype “basic” is a basic land. Any land that doesn’t have this supertype is a nonbasic land."

When you say "The only thing BM can't affect is supertypes...", you do realise that "Basic" is a supertype.
Artifact Lands have 2 types: Artifact and Land. Artifact isn't a supertype. "Non-basic" is considered the...supertype here (but it's not really a supertype).

So essentially, what does Blood Moon do to a Great Furnace? The answer is "almost nothing". GF doesn't have a supertype (Snow, Legendary or Basic) so it's non-basic. That doesn't change. Artifact and Land are both types. They also don't change under BM.
The only thing that changes after the Moon effect is that GF becomes a Mountain. Even though it had the "Tap:Add 1 RED MANA to your mana pool." ability before the Moon, it wasn't a Mountain. (So, I guess you can't even fetch it with fetchlands...)
PoP will still cause you to suffer 2 extra damage either way, and your Furnace can be disenchanted just as well as it counts for your Metalcraft, Moon or no Moon.

Also check the table on:
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Supertype

Regards my friend:)

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Odysseus: Ah. Thank you for citing rules for this matter. I guess I opted to go with the blatant "nonbasics become basics," oracle texting with PoP's "Deal 2 damage for each nonbasic." I knew how it interacted with Artifact Lands, but I swore that otherwise I was correct.

Huh. I guess that last tournament I won wasn't really so as I won based on the argument that my assumption was correct (I was against UR delver and a PoP woulda knocked me down to 1 life, within bolt range that he had in hand).

Thanks again, Odysseus, for keeping me well-informed. ;)

Forlorn Egoist

[Wereodile]

@ForlornEgoist - What about Steel Hellkite have you tested him in your artifact build? He has synergy being an artifact, doesn't "hurt" as much to cast as MoltenSteel Dragon and the built in "Powder Keg" ability can help sweep a lot of trouble permanents, mostly enchantments that we can have problems interacting with. Just a thought.

Also I have been testing Urabrask the Hidden as a one of either MD or SB, I will post more about that soon.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Steel Hellkite:

The primary issue I have with Hellkite is, quite obviously, the 6cc. Even with accelerants this deck has long since established that 5cc is generally the highest the deck should go. Honestly the only reason Moltensteel made the cut was because of the 2 Phyrexian cost (which even now I find myself consistently paying 2-4 to cast him). 6 is a hefty investment to make even under the best of circumstance. Take note that I haven't tested him out in my current build. I tried him out way back when I was transitioning out of hellbent and at that time he was nearly impossible to cast. Since I've added no new accelerants I very much doubt I'll notice any change in his playability but I'm willing to test it out. For the very fact that his cost won't get compounded by Lodestone may at the very least make me consider throwing him in my Akroma-flex spot.

Out of curiosity, which enchantments are you worried about?
Deed is really only run in Rock and Landstill, neither of which are prevalent or entirely difficult MU's for us, Humility/Moat/Solitary Confinement are quite easily answered by Anarchy, and as Enchantress is really the only deck running problematic enchantments, beyond the above mentioned our 3sphere/Golem/CotV already do a pretty nice job of slowing them down.

Forlorn Egoist

[Wereodile]

@ Steel Hellkite:Out of curiosity, which enchantments are you worried about?
Deed is really only run in Rock and Landstill, neither of which are prevalent or entirely difficult MU's for us, Humility/Moat/Solitary Confinement are quite easily answered by Anarchy, and as Enchantress is really the only deck running problematic enchantments, beyond the above mentioned our 3sphere/Golem/CotV already do a pretty nice job of slowing them down.

Forlorn Egoist

Good Points on Hellkite, it gives me something to think about. As for the Enchantments it was really more or less the fact that in Red we have very few ways to interact with those types of permanents outside of getting our lock down or disrupting their mana base but right there that should be enough.
I also thought that having the ability to sweep the board may free up space in the SB once dedicated to Powder Keg and Pyroclasm type effects.

Again you've given me something to chew on and the truth is I need to test more, I am just starting to get serious again and this is the first deck I have picked up.