Zenith-Order (GUW, GWB)

[ivanpei]

Green Sun's Zenith is the latest bomb spoiled in Mirrodin besieged and everybody's buzzing about it. I'm starting this thread to discuss the obvious synergy between: Green Sun's Zenith, Dryad Arbor, Natural Order.

The two mid-range decks that are known to utilize Natural order properly are Bant aggro and The Rock. Here are my two decklists incorporating the Zenith to start off:

Zenith Order Bant

2 Noble Heirarch
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillon Clique (Or Rhox Warmonk)

1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator (Or the 3rd Warmonk)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Spell pierce
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical
1 Tundra
1 Savanna

Zenith Order Rock

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vexing Shusher (Or Gaddock Teeq)

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Wasteland
1 Dryad arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savanna
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

So how does Zenith Change the game? First of all, these decks are mid-range, hence they are not incredibly fast, nor pack too much gas for the late game. Mid-range decks pack just enough of everything. Zenith is the ultimate mid-range card because it:

A) Accelerates: For 1 Mana you can search out a Dryad Arbor. This literally functions as a Llawonar Elf. You now can run up to 8 mana dudes without the risk of drawing too many late game as the Zenith is also an awesome topdeck.
B) Tarmogoyf 5-8: Ever wished you can play 8 Tarmogoyfs? Well now you can, for 1 colourless mana more.
C) Disenchant effect tutor: Hate playing too many disenchant effects that are sometimes too narrow? Or hate playing too little and getting blown out by equipment and counterbalance? This allows you to play a high number of disenchant effects without the risk of being flooded by them.
D) Tutorable Regrowth on a stick: Late game slugfest? Tutoring for an Eternal Witness to regrowth a Force Of Will, Swords To Plowshares to maintain control or a Natural Order to just "win the game".
F) Tutorable "hosers": Limited sideboard space? Just run 1 of each: Gaddock Teeq, Xantid Swarm, Vexing shusher. You can hate on Combo and play around Counterbalance + Counterspells by boarding in the relevant hate cards.
E) Ever increasing threat count: Green Sun's Zenith shuffles back into the library, so your chances or redrawing the Zenith increases as you drag the game out. Fetchlands decreases your chances of drawing land late in the game while the Zenith increases your chance of drawing threats/gas late in the game.

In summary, Green Sun'z Zenith strikes me as a 1 mana Eladamri's Call which dodges Counterbalance AND can also function as a Llawonar elf. Does that sound broken? It sure does! Throw these amazing effects into existing Tier 1 decks and you can really have something extremely dominant. Brainstorming and thoughts appreciated, especially regarding possible tutor targets.

[DragoFireheart]

New deck skeleton for Blue decks.

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tarmogoyf Tutor
4 Tropical Island
?????

Tier 1 deck?

[ivanpei]

Haha, @ Drago, AGREED. Except the 4 Tropical Island part, 3 Trops + 1 Dryad Arbor seems more likely. But IMO the lists here aren't anything revolutionary. It's just common sense and Zenith is just so insane, it doesn't take much to abuse it.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think there is anything super special about the green zenith. It's just a tutor for lots of good green creatures.


Tarmogoyf
Knight of the Reliquary
Eternal Witness
Qasali Pridemage
Rhox War Monk
Noble Hierarch
Trygon Predator



Keep in mind that Zenith also makes green hate bears a good choice for our sideboard as a one of as we can fetch them.

[ivanpei]

It's a tutor for creatures that costs G with no card disadvantage (unlike worldly tutor). If it was just that, it would be good. But what makes it great is that it that it puts a llawonar elf into play for G. What makes it broken is that it shuffles back into your library and has X in its cost, making chalice and counterbalance irrelevant. It is a card that you will always want to see at any stage of the game. This makes this card truly exceptional and over the top.

[DragoFireheart]

The fact that it gets around chalice and (to a lesser extent) counterbalance is going to push decks that depend on those cards to work harder to fight around this card.

How about Zenith in Hannis new Vial Bant aggro deck? Tutor for creatures and Vial in any in our hand?

[ivanpei]

Vial doesn't really play nice with Zenith as zenith puts into play. But Zenith could just be a nice 2/3 off thrown into the deck to up the Tarmogoyf count. Thats never a bad thing. :)

[DragoFireheart]

I want 4 if these before they start to jump in price. Vintage can use it as well to get Cold-Eyed Selkie.

[Ryoku]

E) Ever increasing threat count: Green Sun's Zenith shuffles back into the library, so your chances or redrawing the Zenith increases as you drag the game out. Fetchlands decreases your chances of drawing land late in the game while the Zenith increases your chance of drawing threats/gas late in the game.


This doesn't work as an argument. Even though you're shuffling it back in, you're also removing a threat from your deck, making the net change in the deck equal to zero, exactly as though you had drawn a threat naturally. Obviously, this is not true if you have no threats left in your deck, but that would be somewhat of a moot point.

[ivanpei]

I understand your argument, the total threat balance is the same, sure but your Zenith count will increase. I should have rephrased my point into:

E) Ever increasing Green Sun's Zenith Count.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I don't think there is anything super special about the green zenith. It's just a tutor for lots of good green creatures.


It obviously dodges Remove Soul.

The card's pretty solid. The come into play makes it more versatile, if anything it makes your 1cmc, 2cmc creatures dodge Chalice easier. In elves combo it looks really good... I was also thinking fishing out cards like Scute Mob

[ivanpei]

Yeah this is ideal in elf combo. It looks for nettle sentinel, regal force, etc etc. Its a good chord of calling. Still doesn't find glimpse though and that's the most important card in combo elves. Scute mob is a good suggestion. It can be played as a 1 off. Getting to 5 lands is going to be difficult though. And if you had 5 lands, I don't think you'd be tutoring for a 1 drop vanilla beater that dies to bolt. I'd be tutoring for KOTR or something instantly big.

[Valtrix]

So, just playing around a bit but what about something like:


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Savannah
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [U] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [CFX] Progenitus
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [MI] Wall of Roots

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [WWK] Perimeter Captain
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman

Sideboard is up in the air (Captains are merely to buy time to land natural order). But, some thoughts about what I was thinking when I threw this together...You first of all want to be able to beat combo. This means you probably need to run blue or black. I think black is stronger in this deck because discard is simply better than counters, since you probably don't want to run a lot of blue creatures. This means that your orders are protected, but futhermore you can get progenitus out of your hand and back into your library if you need to. Thoughtseize is the best, and I chose cabal therapy because it's the only thing that also gets your progentius. Also, if you're going to use natural order, cabal therapies in the yard let you trade any extra creatures on board to make sure their hand has no counterspells in it, which is very strong in my opinion. It also stops pesky firespouts from running your mana-creatures.

Next is make sure you have an aggro backup plan. Well, to me aggro is somewhat defined by goyf and knight of the reliquary, so I think these guys can win the game by themselves easily enough. Plus this works much better with discard to strip your opponent's hand of crucial removal to deal with your high class threats. Zenith already means it's like you're running 12 of these threats, which is plenty.

Now for acceleration, because turn three natural orders are rough for most any deck. 2 dryad arbor seems right to me, that way you can tutor for land multiple times and sacrifice more to therapies or natural order off fetchlands. Hierarch is an auto-include. Even not running blue, the acceleration, green creature, and exalted is too much to pass up. Finally I chose wall of roots. This might be a mistake, birds of paradise might just be better. However, I feel like wall gives you a little extra time against aggro if you can't combo out right away (mostly zoo).

As far as zenith utility goes you don't need a lot. Just a gaddock teeg to shut combo down long enough for you to smack them to death, and maybe an eternal witness and pridemage for utility.

I also opted for sensei's divining top, because between knight of the reliquary, fetches, and zenith you have a lot of shuffle effects. This means you can dig for natural order a lot more, dig for protection, or just keep a stream of creatures. It also helps stop you from drawing progenitus, which I think is huge.

Finally I like running lands for knight, because I think a second turn knight fetching wastelands is usually pretty devastating for decks. Plus with mana acceleration wasteland is a very, very strong tempo play. I also included a volrath's stronghold for the obvious synergy with knight (and creatures in general), though it might be unnecessary.

Anyway, my take on using Zenith.

[Philipp2293]

You are a little light on white mana IMO, it looks like you are too dependant on your Hierarchs. Maybe I am underestimating the Zenith, but I would run a second Savannah.

[DragoFireheart]

It obviously dodges Remove Soul.


It also dodges Spell Snare for Goyfs and Pridemages.

[ivanpei]

@ Valtrix, I like your cabal therapy approach and I think for non-blue versions of Zenith-Order, 2 Dryads are probably optimal. However, no Swords? Was what an oversight or does the deck run enough threats to drop removal all together? I'd still run 4 though. I'm thinking about sticking a couple of equipment into the MD. Fetchlands into Dryad EOT followed by swinging in with equipment seems boss. And no vindicate? I'm a big fan of the card as it compliments the LD plan well and is a devastating Turn 2 play off a heirarch/Zenith.

[Valtrix]

I didn't opt for swords perhaps because I'm a bit too focused on the NO plan. Swords is definitely a lot better to pursue the aggro route with, but then again you're mainly winning with goyfs/knights anyway, which are the biggest creatures in the battlefield usually. I think therapy is particularly strong, because it's flashback lets you turn an extra creature the turn you want to cast NO on into protection. I like discard a lot because of the use versus combo and blue decks. Sure, it's not winning any topdeck wars, but this deck hopefully doesn't want to go too far into that part of the game. The main probably is SDT, as that is the strongest way to protect counterspells. As such, xantid swarm in the board just seems very strong. I also replaced the witness with swarm, because I think that that's much more important.

I don't think wall of roots is the right choice though, and I'm not really sure that the deck needs more 1cc acceleration. Vindicate might be a good choice, since you can try the mana-denial route and it gives you some flexibility in removal, but it might be most effective to just run more threats, maybe terravores would be a good choice, because then you really are running all of the biggest creatures on the battlefield and it does strengthen your aggro gameplan quite a bit I think.

[Justin]

The Rock version will need a second big creature as a natural order target. You need some backup in case you draw Progenitus. In the Bant version, you can use Brainstorm or Clique to get Progenitus out of your hand. The Rock version has no way to do this (other than Thoughtseizing yourself, which sucks), so it will need to run another big guy such as Terastodon.

[Ramirez777]

I have a similar take on the deck, but I think that that sticking with blue to protect Natural Order is a safer route. Not to mention that Noble Heirarch plays on the blue build. I'm having trouble panning out the mana base, but I've narrowed down the land selection. This version focuses on the green and blue aspect, and mostly utilizes white post sideboard. I'm going to do what most people do, and just post a deck list. Opening myself up to constructive criticism is the way to go, so please throw out your opinions.

The Order of the Zenith

--14 Creatures

4x Noble Heirarch
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Progenitus
1x Trygon Predator
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox Warmonk
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Eternal Witness

--25 Spells

4x Natural Order
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce

--21 Lands

3x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strands
4x Tropical Island
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Tundra
1x Savannah

--SB

4x Mindbreak Trap
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Qasali Pridgemage
1x Rhox Warmonk
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

[ivanpei]

@ Valtrix, Interesting, I can see where you are getting at as you prefer to gear for a combo-ish version.

@ Justin, agreed that drawing progenitus sucks. terastodon seems like a good alternate target. I've won against zoo/folk by turning my own lands into 3/3s, giving me 4 blockers and 18 power on the board.

@ Ramirez, I like the list, IMO plows are pretty important too. Am I the only one feeling that way? But other than that, solid list.

I am so itching to get a playset of the zeniths. I cant wait! I want to be rocking these babies for real as soon as possible.

[Ajsmirnov]

have you considered Rafiq or Wilt-Leaf Liege as a Zenith-targets? both look ok, first in bant, second in rock version

[Ramirez777]

@ ivanpei: Swords to Plowshares is a strong card, but may not be utilized in every match-up. While I must admit the aggro route is becoming more popular, there are some decks that do not run any creatures. My build is utilizing the creatures as a back-up plan, utility, & defense, while focusing on successfully casting a Progenitus for the game win. Swords to Plowshares becomes less necessary when you're swinging w/ pro everything, as you do not need to remove blockers.

[DragoFireheart]

Is Green Sun's Zenith going to marginalize Counterbalance? Decks can start to run GSZ and simply avoid the CB effect to land a Pridemage or some other creature that will just end the control player.

[Ramirez777]

@ DragoFireheart: I can only hope that it will marginalize CB/Top decks. Running GSZ will give you a better match up against CB decks, instead of running only the creatures. Downsides are that it opens you up to Spell Pierce/curse catcher, costs one more mana to resolve the threat, & is hit by cards like Gaddock Teeg. A few upsides are the ability to play around Chalice of the Void, mana excel with Dryad Arbor, a kick to CB's nutts, & allows you to choose your threat. I'm sure there are a few benefits and downsides I've left off, but it definately seems better to play it with a green creature based deck than to not do so.

[Hanni]

Counterbalance has lost alot of power because of Aether Vial as it is, so the ability to negate Counterbalance doesn't really seem like the best reason to run GSZ. Otherwise, it makes fetching utility nice, or increasing density of specific guys nice, but unless they print some combo-esque creatures, I really don't see GSZ being that great. Paying 2G for a Goyf defeats the purpose of why Goyf is so good (2cc), etc. I guess my question is, why play GSZ when you can play Vial? Obviously, running both is pretty bad...

[Ramirez777]

@Hanni: I agree that Aether Vial is wonderful, but it can also be a dead draw and also doesn't net you a creature of your choice. Yes, GSZ adds an additional one mana to the cost of the spell, but it also lets you mana excel with Dryad Arbor. The ability to choose the creature your putting in to play is a powerful option, as GSZ also functions as a tutor. Both cards have their merits, and each is made for different reasons.

[yutang]

I'm testing out the list below:

4 Wastelands
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra

2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
3 Stifle
2 Ponder

Sideboard:

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

It's doing fairly well so far and I'll report back on how I go. Any thoughts on the above?

[tride]

I'm testing out the list below:

4 Wastelands
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra

2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
3 Stifle
2 Ponder

Sideboard:

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives

It's doing fairly well so far and I'll report back on how I go. Any thoughts on the above?

I see some of you have cut Noble Hierarchs but I don't think you should. Finding creature with GSZ costs one more mana and I would prefer using the only GSZ in my hand to get KotR or Tarmogoyf over Dryad. Hierarch also allows you to fetch Forest t1 against Merfolk.
In my oppinion T1 Hierarch > T1 GSZ -> Dryad Arbor.

[ivanpei]

Agreed that T1 Noble is definitely better than T1 GSZ, however it's hard to keep up the blue count and maintain a respectable threat density. Having just 2 nobles + 4 GSZ's for a total of 6 Turn 1 accel is reasonable. Or we can simply trim the threats/answers like KOTR 2, pridemage 2 for the 3rd and 4th noble. However even with 4 nobles, drawing them late game has always been a pain in the ass. Being able to play less late game dead draws seems to be pretty good too.

@ Hanni, GSZ and vial are very different cards. I won't say one is better than the other but Aether Vial is definitely the "proven" powerhouse. As for the use of Vial vs GSZ in "the next evolution of tarmogoyf+force of will based aggro control", I believe GSZ will turn out to be the more popular choice for the following reasons.

1. Vial requires a high creature count, therefore your non-blue spells will be limited as most ground pounders are not blue. GSZ is by itself both an accelerator and a threat, so it can be increase your room for non-creature spells.
2. Therefore, while vial decks are pretty fixed in terms of cards (20+ 2cc/3cc creatures, 18-20 spells, lands) GSZ can be more flexible. You have the flexibility to play natural order MD or out of the board, you have space for more cantrips, you can run countertop/ more counterspells etc etc.
3. This allows you to adapt to the meta and not be as rigid. Being able to switch plans after board is also a plus for GSZ based decks. You can switch from aggro to combo with NO, or to control with Jaces + firespout etc etc. A vial deck will unfortunately be stuck in creature mode as the effectiveness of vial is greatly diminished if you go below 20 creatures.

Thats my crystal balling, but time will tell I guess.

[ivanpei]

Oh man this deck is the nuts consistent. Here's my current list:

4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Spell pierce
4 Stp

4 Noble
4 Goyf
4 Gsz
3 Warmonk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

1 Dryad arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Trops
1 Tundra
2 Savanna
4 Misty
4 Windswept

Being able to run 8 turn 1 accel without fear of flooding has really improved the tempo mu's. After testing against gobbo and other fast decks, almost always having the turn 1 mana elf into a daze+ goyf or a warmonk is very strong. Against control, 5 pridemages agains countertop is very strong. The singleton witness is standout. The weakness of NO Pro decks is running out of gas or being blown out if your NO is countered. GSZ let's you tutor for witness to do it again + gives you the body to sack to NO.

I'm currently playing monks instead of kotrs because I need the blue count and kotrs are not fully utilized without wastelands and canopies which this deck can't run. Any one else having success with GSZ?

[Ajsmirnov]

was rly infected by this idea, testing a lot against maverick, rock, merfolks, landstill...

are you sure you need so many basics with the mana ramp the deck has?

current list is:

3 trop
2 tundra
1 island
1 plains
1 forest
7 fetches
1 dryad arbor
3 horizon canopy

4 hierarch
4 tarmo
2 qasali(or 1+1 qasali + trygon)
2 rwm
1 witness
1 progenitus

4 fow
4 brainstorm
4 stp
3 daze
2 pierce
3 ponder(maybe i cut 1 to play 2 qasali + trygon mainboard)
4 zenith

can anyone suggest what to board against merfolks?

my current plan:

+1 en.tutor
+1 dueling grounds
+1 jitte
+3 cold-eyed selkie
-3 order
-1 progenitus
-1 ponder
-1 zenith

[ivanpei]

Yeah I seem to have alot of basics. I dunno, the 2nd forest is probably wrong. Might make it another fetch/trop/canopy. How do you like the canopies? I kind of find them annoying outside of KOTR decks. The pain is usually not worth the cycle effect. Your list looks really good and solid.
This should be what most bant no-pro decks will look like from now on IMO.

Without spouts, folk will be harder. I'm not sure about the selkies, they're really good if you connect with it but you need to stop the bleeding, not get greedy with selkie. Selkie is great against other blue decks that are less all-out aggro but I would not board them in against folk. IMO, I'd run more jittes/monks/paths. Nothing too techy but they're also good against all the various forms of aggro out there like gobbos, zoo etc. Its best to play cards that are less narrow, even in the board. Take dueling grounds for example, its GG against folk and gobbos but it doesn't stop a big tarmogoyf/ KOTR bashing you to death vs zoo.

I'll be running this in an open meta:

SB
2 Path
1 Rhox Warmonk
2 Jitte
1 Spell pierce
3 Jace TMS
2 Crypt
2 Relic
2 Krosan Grip

Jace shores up the control Matchups, I usually board the NO-s out against control to prevent being 2 for 1ed. Jace TMS is the bomb that gets boarded in to replace it. Also its a preemptive answer to opposing Jaces. It's like how Tarmogoyf is the best answer to Tarmogoyf.

[Doomsday]

Creatures - 15
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Noble Hierarch
3x Rhox War Monk
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Trygon Predator
1x Progenitus

Instant - 16
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery - 11
4x Ponder
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Natural Order

Land - 18
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
2x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

This has been working well for me so far in testing. Not sure about sideboard other than Tormod's Crypt, some more Pridemages, a couple Path to Exile and some Dueling Grounds.

[ivanpei]

Nice list, has 18 lands been enough? I can see you run 4 ponders so you can run less lands. No love for pierce? I'm a big fan of the card. Now with zeniths out there, there will be more stuff to hit with pierce. If you don't see much combo, I think you can get away without pierce MD. Since you run 4 daze and 2 kotrs, you might want to play a couple of wastelands. Maybe cut 2 ponders for 2 wastes? Cheers!

[Doomsday]

Nice list, has 18 lands been enough? I can see you run 4 ponders so you can run less lands. No love for pierce? I'm a big fan of the card. Now with zeniths out there, there will be more stuff to hit with pierce. If you don't see much combo, I think you can get away without pierce MD. Since you run 4 daze and 2 kotrs, you might want to play a couple of wastelands. Maybe cut 2 ponders for 2 wastes? Cheers!

Yeah the 8 cantrips have made 18 land run fine. I have definitely had times where I wanted a Wasteland to fetch with the Knight, I'm hesitant to cut blue cards though. I really like Spell Pierce but I have Daze here because I pretty much want to tap out on the first 3-4 turns.

[Cenarius]

Wow, GSZ is amazing. Absolutely amazing!

Currently testing this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary --> Maybe should be 4/1
2 Rhox War Monk --> Maybe should be 4/1
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator

1 Progenitus
3 Natural Order

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Ponder
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

2 Dryad Arbor (must)
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

I'm still not satisfied about my lands. Probably going to cut the plains for an extra fetchland. Maybe the deck should play a Savannah, but probably not.
Not sure about the creatures. GSZ gets KotR's most of the time, instead of Tarmogoyf's or RWM. Maybe a split of 4 Knight of the Reliquary and 1 Rhox War Monk is better. QPM and Trygon Predator is good, for now.
I like the sheer power of GSZ, because it's CA. Turn 1: GSZ for Dryad Arbor is insane, because u don't loose a card and you're ramping at the same time plus you're getting a creature for NO. I don't like Noble Hierarch, never did actually.

I just purchased 4 (Japanese) GSZ.

[ivanpei]

I've got my Zeniths, in the process of upgrading to foils. It's one of my favourite cards at the moment :) I usually don't get excited about green cards, fauna was good, this is great! Looking at your list, Cenarius, seems like you are seeing alot of the mid-range and control mirror. Your list is very CA heavy with sylvan libraries and no nobles. I won't cut nobles entirely though, I would play at least 2. I dislike KOTR in this deck, even though he is usually insane. Kotrs seem inefficient without multiple wastelands and horizon canopies. I sometimes miss the 2nd dryad arbor, so running 2 is pretty good, however I hate drawing them and the I'd rather not be able to fetch the 2nd arbor than draw an arbor (similar line of thought as progenitus, though dryad is not totally dead).

Since you prefer a gas heavy version, play the eternal witness instead of trygon predator. I feel that most of you guys play the trygon as the 2nd Pridemage in case you used the 1st one already. + trygon pitches to force which is awesome. Honestly though, I hate the card because it is terrible vs aggro and only really useful when counterbalance has landed + it can get plowed/bolted/firespouted. But with GSZ now, trygon seems unnecessary. If you play witness, she can be your 2nd pridemage as you can return the pridemage back to your hand and use it the next turn (similar to putting trygon into play and only attacking the next turn). Witness IMO is the GAS in a GSZ deck, she fetches back natural orders, STPs, FOWs tarmogoyfs etc while being a body for NO/chumping/swinging.

[Cenarius]

I'm not sure about Eternal Witness myself. Eternal Witness is even more dead against Tribal Agro than Trygon Predator. I can play a turn 2 Trygon on the play and remove Vial on turn 3. It's not OP, but it's a possibility.

I played against Maverick and he played some kind of Bant Agro list with 3 Sylvan Library. The card was absolutely sick against me (playing Countertopthers), ofcourse. Therefore I started my list with 2 Sylvan Libraries. The card fetches the best card of your top 3, just like top, and it can be CA aswell. (I started first with 3 Sensei's Divining Top, but almost never had the mana to spend in the first three turns.)
Best play of the deck would be:

Turn 1: (Fetch -->) Tropical Island, Green Sun's Zenith --> Dryad Arbor.
Turn 2: (Fetch -->) Tundra, Sylvan Library with mana open for either Swords to Plowshares or Spell Pierce or mana open for Daze.
Usually the deck won't loose from this point. I'm sure this is one of the best plays the deck can have.

I'm thinking about going 2 Natural order's, due to heavy deck manipulation (4 Brainstorm, 3 Ponder, 2 Sylvan Library + 4 GSZ). Natural Order's are not the only way the deck can win, in fact I usually win because of Knight of the Reliquary or multiple Tarmogoyf's (because of my Sylvan Library).

I also like the fact that going Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad arbor/Tarmogoyf resulting in a Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares doesn't actually lose you a card. The Green Sun's Zenith just shuffles back into your deck.

Control is pretty much dead over here.
Mid-range decks, tribal and combo are played most frequently. We've got a healthy metagame of nearly everything. Control is dead as it is used to be.

I believe that Knight of the Reliquary is one of the most strongest creatures in the deck, right behind Tarmogoyf and Dryad Arbor (weird isn't it?).

Signing out.

[luma]

I also like the fact that going Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad arbor/Tarmogoyf resulting in a Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares doesn't actually lose you a card. The Green Sun's Zenith just shuffles back into your deck.

It does lose you a card. If you get a first turn Dryad Arbor with GSZ, you'll have 5 cards in hand and 2 on the battlefield (and 53 in your library), exactly the same if you had played a Noble Hierarch. If your opponent then bolts the Arbor / Hierarch, in both cases you'll have 5 cards in hand and 1 on the battlefield (plus 1 in your graveyard and 53 in your library). Shuffling the Zenith back into your library doesn't matter for card advantage.

[ivanpei]

Sylvan and kotrs are bant aggro staples and are really awesome for the exact reasons you posted above. However, they aren't blue :( currently the deck has a pretty low blue count already. The only way to make space for them is to trim non blue cards. ATM, I'm pretty happy with my witness as a tutor target into gas. But I'll cut it for Kotr to see if I miss it. If I was running Kotrs, I obviously won't be playing witness as a late game target, kotr is a better target. I think there are a couple of schools of thought now on this decks direction.

Do you go more aggro with Kotrs and sylvan with less NOs and warmonks or more control-combo ish with more NOs and rhox warmonks? My build is geared to be more control-comboish. I've cut spell pierces after testing for the 4th daze and 2 cliques. Spell pierce was 80% of the time FOW food. Against anything that's not combo, I hated seeing it.

The deck taps out almost every turn and I usually always drop a ponder/ gsz/ noble turn 1. I seldom can keep mana open for pierce without hampering my own tempo. Also pierce does not play nice with NO. I am unlikely to be able to defend my NO with pierce. I can't afford to wait till I ramp up to 5 mana to cast NO. Clique on the other hand is like a preemptive spell pierce. It comes down a turn before the NO to "thoughtseize" the opponent and bag the counterspell before you NO. Also clique is not as terrible as pierce against aggro, at least a 3 mana disruptive lightning bolt is better than an often dead card like pierce.

Here's the new list after tweaking:

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 STP

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Goyf
1 KOTR
1 Pridemage
3 RWM
2 Clique

3 No
1 Proggy

4 Heath
4 Misty
1 Strand
3 Trop
1 Savanna
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

So Kotr replaces witness, maxed out dazes, cliques and a retooled manabase (- 2 duals, + 1 fetch + 1 canopy). I still only have 19 blue spells (excluding the 1 proggy). IMO this is near the bare-minimum mark for blue spells. The most I can see cutting is a war monk for another KOTR or a Sylvan. The 3rd NO is also cuttable for sylvan, as is the 4th GSZ/Noble. I'd be more inclined to cut Noble though, GSZ is such a house. What about wastelands? I desperately want to fit in wastelands without compromising the manabase too much. I think if we retool the deck, we can actually shift NO to the board to go totally aggro. Here's my try at aggro zenith:

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace TMS
4 STP
1 Sylvan Library

4 Noble
4 GSZ
1 Pridemage
3 KOTR
4 Goyf
2 Clique

4 Misty
4 Heath
1 Strand
2 Trop
1 Savanna
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

SB:
3 NO
1 Proggy
Xx other stuff

Only has 18 blue cards though, thoughts? Would you prefer an Aggro list or an NO list? Off the top of my head, the Aggro lists seem better against control/combo because you don't run the risk of being 2 for 1ed when NO is countered + you can run wastelands. The No list looks like its better against aggro and aggro-control, where you stall the board out with warmonks/goyfs/kotrs and slam a NO for proggy to take it home.

IMHO, I'd still play the NO's because NO is just such a house. So many decks are just cold to NO. Not very many decks can deal with a quick NO. Previously, getting to 4 mana for NO against aggro was a challenge, but now with the deck being able to play + 4 mana elves, I can cast NO consistently on turn 3. This makes NO relevant against quick decks like zoo.

[hyc8028]

The lack of Blue count is this deck worry me a bit. I like the aggro version that ivanpei posted above. Zenith into Dryad is still good with out NO and we can find some way to increase a bit of blue count.

[ivanpei]

The following are common bant aggro blue cards that you may or may not want to play:

Jace TMS
3rd and 4th Ponder
4th Daze
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Clique
Trygon Predator
Kira the Great Glass Spinner
Rhox Warmonk
Stifle
Meddling Mage

Missing anything else? I'm currently playing 3 warmonks, 4th Daze and 2 Cliques. Which ones do you like?

[hyc8028]

The following are common bant aggro blue cards that you may or may not want to play:

Jace TMS
3rd and 4th Ponder
4th Daze
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Clique
Trygon Predator
Kira the Great Glass Spinner
Rhox Warmonk
Stifle
Meddling Mage

Missing anything else? I'm currently playing 3 warmonks, 4th Daze and 2 Cliques. Which ones do you like?

You have everything I think. Very hard to say without much testing but I am digging the Jace and Trygon. I am not a fan for NO tho. Don't get me wrong. I own a set also, so price is not a issue here. It is a strong finisher and it work with the Zenith well, but I hated when my opponent 2 for 1 me and I wish NO is blue sometimes.

I have to agree. Green Zenith is really good with NO or by itself. Like stoneforge mystic last year, this card is going to do some serious damage in legacy for years to come and the scary part is that it is going to get better when WOTC print more playable green dude.

[Cenarius]

I'm not digging the Noble Hierarch in this list. It's just a mere llanowar elves past turn 2 (always been). I raised my blue count by cutting Noble hierarch's for Spell Pierce's. Green Sun's Zenith provides enough ramp for the deck.

[ivanpei]

I personally think that the NO versions should run at least a couple of nobles, but the kotr/wasteland version can run without them. I'm a big fan of nobles though, and I'll take my chances of bad draws later in the game for a higher chance of having the turn 1 elf. Zenith makes bant aggro really confusing, there's too many possible builds.

[haku]

Hi, I'm new in the source, I've been following the thread since many days and I have my own deck without NO:


4 Tarmogoyf
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rafiq of the Many

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith


1 Savannah
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Forest


The list may seem strange, but everything has a reason.

1) No Natural Order: I think that playing GSZ you don't need the NO threat, I have replaced by 2 Elspeth and 1 Rafiq, wich I can search with GSZ.
2) No KOTR: I don't like the wastelands in that deck and I prefer to take an EW.
3) Only 3 GSZ: I am considering to play 4 GSZ and cut down hierarch.
4) 8 cantrips: I see it necessary if i want to a really aggro setup.

Please feel free to comment on the list and give me your opinion.

Thanks.

[Cenarius]

I personally think that the NO versions should run at least a couple of nobles, but the kotr/wasteland version can run without them. I'm a big fan of nobles though, and I'll take my chances of bad draws later in the game for a higher chance of having the turn 1 elf. Zenith makes bant aggro really confusing, there's too many possible builds.

I'll have to disagree here, will you please test some games without Noble Hierarch? Otherwise we'll just going to have to leave the discussion, right here.
I'm not too big of a fan of Rhox War Monk. The guy is pretty good against anything agro or Canadian Threshold, but kinda sucks against everything that isn't agro. The body of 3/4 isn't just that big anymore.
Knight of the Reliquary is awesome, because it isn't just a vanilla creature, it's a creature that can grow itself (therefore has a large body, therefore wins a lot of creature fights) and offer toolboxes. I believe that NOPRO decks, that do not play Knight of the Reliquary, have to rely too much on resolving the 4-mana sorcery card. That's just not what I prefer.

I belief that Green Sun's Zenith requires Natural Order/Progenitus and visa versa. The sheer advantage cannot be ignored. Playing Elspeth, Knight Errant or Jace, the Mindsculptor, how good they may be, is not the direction for the deck, IMO.

[ivanpei]

So your proposed solution is to cut the heirarchs for blue spells and run KOTR instead of warmonk. I understand where you are coming from and I have played without heirarchs but I have to admit that I always love seeing heirarch in my opening hand. Right now my version is very dependant on NO, this I agree 100%. The issue is that NO is very underwhelming without turn 1 acceleration.

I would love to be able to find the perfect balance between KOTR and NO but the fact remains that we also have to balance blue spells and speed (to play noble heirarch or not) in the deck. I've found that my deck is literally a combo control deck which focuses on resolving NO. My choice of disruption (clique) and defensive creatures (war monk) all focus on helping resolve NO and survive till Proggy gets there. This has been working fine for me.

KOTR has currently not been working well for me though. The problem is once again is the lack of wastelands and canopies + tutor box to fully abuse KOTR. The deck's manabase is very strained as it is. I believe the deck has to go one way or the other. Playing a hybrid definitely has benefits but you are also opening yourself up to inefficiencies (unsuitable manabase for KOTR) and a lost of focus (playing less copies of NO, and no heirarchs to help power out NO).

I respect that you are bent on playing both NO and kotr in the same deck. Yes that may work, but you will also find yourself in trouble when variance kicks in (bad luck will eventually turn up). This is of course from my testing, and maybe I'm sort of a safe player and not much of an innovative risk taker.

I've gone back to the witness over KOTR and removed horizon canopy totally from the deck. While I was play testing earlier, little quirks like taking canopy pain for nothing when I don't have KOTR in play or having a KOTR that comes down as a 3/3 and not having wasteland to search for.

[Moczoc]

KOTR screams to be a 1 of to be fetched with GSZ in the lategame or earlier if the opp relies on few non-basics.

But a balance has to be found between >green creatures< and >blue cards< to be able to constantly use NO and FoW

The list I'd play:


Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Jenara, Asura of War
1 Trygon Predator

Spells
2 Spell Pierce
5 Brainstorm (1 would be Ponder)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
2 Green Suns Zenith

Lands
16 Duals/Fetches/some Basics
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor


-> green creature count: 16 (w/o Progenitus itself)

-> blue card count: 22

[ivanpei]

How has testing with rafiq been? He's blue, so he doesn't clog the non-blue slots. He's also tutorable. IMO he can help proggy alpha strike but no into gsz-> rafiq after sacking a mana bear is unlikely. Truthfully he is just a bid bad finisher and helps turn gsz into a mini natural order. How good is he?

[Ajsmirnov]

You're right. Rafiq is only good as 2nd NO-target. so you resolve 1st NO, then 2nd or Zenith for Rafiq to overkill. Though it is great with Selkie, Predator and RWM, super-great with Progenitus... there is always a feeling that you could win without it.

[Cenarius]

Ok, I tested several matches/games and here are my foundings:

Like I said, Green Sun's Zenith is awesome (Barney quote)! Ramp and finding fatties in mid/late game is just fascinating. What a blast to play the card.
I tested the matches/games without sideboard, because I wanted to see what I really wanted.
We need an overall substitute for Natural Order against Control, Tempo Threshold, Merfolk (and?). For control the switch would likely be Jace, the Mindsculptor but the card isn't that great against Tempo Threshold, I believe. 4 mana is a lot against them, even if u can ramp it up a bit. However, Jace, the Mindsculptor seems to be the most likely substitute.
We also need something against Tribal decks. The matchups are not that great, but also not too bad, frankly. I definitely want Pithing Needle's, Umezawa's Jitte (pretty good against Agro-Control aswell, ofcourse) and some Path's to Exile.
I'm not sure about the Loam, Ichorid matchups but we prolly need 3 type of graveyard-hate aswell. Could bojuka bog be a good answer?

Possible Sideboard:
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor (Control/Tempo Threshold)
2 Pithing Needle (Tribal & Rogue decks)
2 Path to Exile (Tribal)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (Tribal & Agro-control)
1 Karakas (Emkarul-decks)
1 Bojuka Bog (Dredge, Agro loam/43 land, (stranded) reanimator
1 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Agro loam/43 land, (stranded) reanimator)
1 Relic of Progenitus (Dredge, Agro loam/43 land, (stranded) Reanimator)
1 Gaddock Teeg (combo)
1 Spell Pierce (combo)

Some points:
The Knight of the Reliquary's are good, Green Sun's Zenith can pump out 10/10's himself aswell, once in midgame/lategame.
The Sylvan Library's are good.
Never missed Hierarch: hands without GSZ, had ponder. Don't want more 1-drops, and Noble Hierarch is a terrible topdeck.
I'm going to test a list with 2 Natural Order's, I believe the card is good, but I mainly want the card in mid/late game.
I'm not sure about the Trygon Predator/Qasali Pridemage configuration, on the otherhand I never tested a match against staxx/cb top. So I'll keep those in, just to be sure.
2 Dryad Arbor's is a must. Hand's with 2 Dryad Arbor's, GSZ and no brainstorm are mullable.
I'm not sure about the Canopy, thought it's nice to have it as third (played) land, once you're wasted once, because it will fix your manabase.
18 lands is more than enough.
Gosh, I hate Ponder into Shuffle into Progenitus.

That's it for now.

[jeanbathez]

Hi to all of you here in this thread !

So finally i got my playset of GSZ yesterday, and next weekend i'am going to play GSZ in a small tourney (5 rounds).

Last weekend i played a bant aggro list with stoneforge mystics and no NO in it, and a SB with a ET package in it. My meta ist a lot of tribals.
I was very pleased with it going 2nd.
Sadly Stoneforge isn't green for GSZ.

So i'am thinking about a SB with ET and if Stoneforge should/could be played in this deck, i think there isn't enough space what do you think...?

[ivanpei]

If you cut Noble totally and don't play NOs, you might have space for 2 stoneforge + 2 equipment. I don't recommend it though, I'd rather use those non-blue slots to play KOTR, he is such a beast. BTW anyone interested in testing a tempo-zenith deck? Somewhat similar to new horizons. I'll fool around with it a little, should be worth testing. Stifles +kotr+ wastelands and terravore with GSZ? mmmm, awesome.

[Doomsday]

I tested with Rafiq in the Trygon spot and found he could be a faster kill as an NO target than Progenitus (when you already have a Goyf or KoTR ready to attack). But I think I would have won these games anyway with NO into Progenitus or just riding the Goyf/KoTR to victory. He seemed fun but unnecessary.

[Cenarius]

Some points:

...
I'm not sure about the Trygon Predator/Qasali Pridemage configuration, on the otherhand I never tested a match against staxx/cb top. So I'll keep those in, just to be sure.
...



Talking nonsense here. I tested some games against Merfolk (jitte + vial), Countertopters, Staxx and MUD (with Vkey's, Grim Monolith's + big creatures). Predator and QPM were a house, ofcourse. It only costs 2 slots, so I'll just keep em in.

Rafiq of the Many is a random win-more card. Don't play it. He wins games when u already have creatures on the board, alone he's pretty bad.
I don't believe that Tempo-Zenith lists are really going to be that good. Getting 4 mana in a tempo list is pretty hard (4 mana required to get KotR/Terravore), playing 20 lands to compensate that, is pretty weak for tempo decks. But that's just my opinion. Not to mention that Wasteland is not totally synergistic with Green Sun's Zenith, is it?

Maybe, we have to search for Green creatures with a CIP-ability that can hurt certain matchups. They might be good sideboard options with Green Sun's Zenith. Things like: when ~ comes into play, destroy all enchantments. Or things like Artifact's or both. Things that destroy creatures of a certain colour (pref red, blue, maybe green). Things like that. X should be 3 or less, otherwise Green Sun's Zenith will cost too much to rely on it.

[Suneloon]

Maybe, we have to search for Green creatures with a CIP-ability that can hurt certain matchups. They might be good sideboard options with Green Sun's Zenith. Things like: when ~ comes into play, destroy all enchantments. Or things like Artifact's or both. Things that destroy creatures of a certain colour (pref red, blue, maybe green). Things like that. X should be 3 or less, otherwise Green Sun's Zenith will cost too much to rely on it.

Exactly the way i wanted to go. I LOVE Eternal Witness in this deck (I'm considering copies 2-3). So i went looking for more CIP triggering green critters. But I have found none worth a slot in the 75, other than the ones already being discussed in this thread. Exepting maybe Loaming Shaman, I don't think there are any silver bullets that have been missed so far. Heres hoping wizards print more green hatebears.

Having said all this: I don't feel GSZ needs more targets to be awesome. Being a Llanowar elf with kicker 2: turn into a Goyf, pretty much makes this card awesome in itself.

[ivanpei]

Can't think of much that's =< 3cc. Maybe fauna shaman? I actually posted a survival-esque deck on the survival thread that plays 4 fauna, 4 GSZ and loyal retainers- Iona like the survival decks of old. Eternal wintness is currently the gassiest card to tutor at the 3cc, kotr is the biggest and baddest. I'm not sure what else we can look for though. 1 off cold eyed selkie in the board against control? It's like being able to tutor for dark confidant!

[Ajsmirnov]

Anyone tested Wall of Roots? Looks good to stop 3/3 cat etc before we resolve Natural Order, pitching that Wall of Roots. Or can be Zenithed to ensure we have 4 mana next turn, or 5 mana to play NO + pay Daze if we topdeck a land.

First I saw Walls in PVDDR's ProBant at Worlds09 and GP Madrid, and he was ok with them. Another option here - Werebear.
Sure the biggest Wall's drawback is being not blue.

[Cenarius]

Oké, went looking for every single creature with x < 4. There's absolutely nothing that needs to be put in the sideboard, except for 1 Gaddock Teeg.

I'm not fan of Cold-eyed Selkie myself.
I'm also not fan of Wall of Roots myself, because I don't want to be dedicated to Natural Order.
Fauna Shaman might be an option, but turn 2/3 Fauna Shaman, turn 3/4 activation doesn't do anything in this metagame anymore. The metagame is just too fast for that.

Currently playing this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk (this creature is only good against tribal, therefore only needed as tutor target)
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order
4 Ponder

2 Sylvan Library

2 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Strand/1 Horizon Canopy
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

//Sideboard (posted above)

Pretty overall list, that doesn't depend on Natural Order to win. Sylvan Library, Knight of the Reliquary all proved themself to be extremely good. Natural Order as a 2-off because I only want him to see midgame or early-late game (if u know what I mean). I love the amount of deck manipulation, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder and 2 Sylvan Libary. Brainstorm into nuts-crap, GSZ --> shuffle, is nice to do aswell.

Singing off: going on an holiday, back at the 20th/21th. Let's hope the discussion continues.

[adamt]

I played in a local 16 man tournament with this deck yesterday in RI (DieHardGames). 4 Rounds, cut to top 4 for a Tundra and store credit for 2-4th place.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

3 spell pierce
3 phy revokers
3 Curfew (lots of SneakShow lately and I didn't have a Karakas)
2 sower of temptation
2 Krosan Grip
2 Jitte

19 blue cards for FOW.. just on the cusp.. I'd prefer 20.

The meta around here is usually Goblins, Counterbalance, SneakShow, Dark Horizons, some StormCombo and Merfolk.. so it's pretty consistent with the SCG/etc meta. I had been playing a UGW Stiflenought deck for a spell and had the cards for ProBant and thought with GSZ coming out, it would be a great fit for the deck. I'd been following the discussions on here about it and tweaked the lists a bit to fit my meta. For the record I never ONCE wished I had a 4th GSZ.. I was casting the 3 I played left and right and recycling them all the time. 4 was just too many IMHO when I was testing.

My board was missing some cards I had lent out to a friend (Pithing needles (replaced by Revokers) and Paths (replaced by spell pierces) which while I knew were sub-optimal, I figured I wanted to test out some cards in the board for various matchups and didn't think I'd face what I did round 1. In hindsight my S/B should have been:

2 Jace TMS (control, lands, etc..)
3 Path to Exile (tribal)
2 Jitte (tribal)
3 pithing needle (vials, deeds, tops, maze of iths)
1 Loaming Shaman (lands, dredge, Loam decks, etc..)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Storm combo)

Round 1 vs LANDS
I thought people stopped playing this deck, but obv I was wrong.
Game 1 I keep a hand thats pretty good against most decks and would have turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 RWM with a few swords in hand as well as a FOW.
He plays turn 1 Manabond that I FOW, pitching RWM.
Turn two I play Goyf I just drew, his turn 2 he plays ANOTHER Manabond, then pitches plays tabernacle and wasteland on his discard step. I need a Pridemage and a KOTR quick.. but he of course topdecks life from the loam. I am get my lands wasted down to nothing and once he has two Mazes and the tabernacle, i concede to go to game 2. In hindsight, he had NO win condition coming anytime soon, but I just would be locked out of the game until he did 15 turns later when he would draw an intuition for his manlands or something.

I then look at my sideboard and realize I had no graveyard hate (ie loaming shaman) and those revokers can't target lands. uggh. I board in 2 k grips for 2 swords and im off to game 2

I mul to 6 to get a FOW in hand and 2 lands. I play turn 1 zenith into dryad arbor to have a turn 2 KOTR.
I FOW his turn 1 Manabond AGAIN pitching a V Clique. He plays another on his third turn, but I K Grip it.
He plays an Exploration and gets off a Intuition for Loam/Tabernacle/waste the next turn and starts to get the loam/exploration gig going. I get him low on life and am able to use KOTR to waste the tabernacle a few times but can't seem to draw counters to stop him from replaying Loam every 2nd turn or so. He eventually gets Tabernacle and 2 Maze of Iths again and I don't concede as he still has no win conditions and we go to time on the second game. I regret not having needles in my board or graveyard hate and start out 0-1

Round 2
I play against an aggro red deck with fireblasts/bolts/ball light/etc..
I go turn 1 zenith into arbor into Hierarch.
He doesn't kill the hierarch or the arbor and I cast turn two NO for Prog and we go to game 2
I board in some spell pierces for dazes. and Jittes for the pridemages/predator
He wins game 2 with me never drawing much other than a KOTR and having swords'd some of his early aggression and he would die to the KOTR when he topdecks a fireblast.
Game 3 I play turn 1 zenith into arbor into Hierarch which he kills on his turn 1
On my turn 2 I play RWM which he REB's on his turn.
I play another next turn which he REB's and then on my turn 5 I GSZ for a 3rd one then equip it with Jitte next turn and his deck just can't handle it after that.
I won, but still wish I had the paths in the board for this matchup

1-1

Round 3 Goblins
I turn 1 Zenith into D.Arbor. turn 2 RWM, turn 3 Goyf, and then run out of steam. He just keeps topdecking Piledrivers and I don't see any STPs or counters for them all the while he cycles Gempalms for obscene damage to my creatures. I look to my S/B for game 2 and just wish I had the Paths but board in Jittes and spell pierces.

For Game 2 I turn 1 Hierarch, turn two RWM, Turn 3 RWM, Turn 4 Goyf, Turn 4 NO-> Prog and he concedes when his sideboard perishes don't magically appear.

Game 3 I swords a first turn lackey, he kills my turn 2 goyf, and plays another lackey and a vial. Turn 3 he warren wierdings my goyf and hits with lackey and plays matron which fetches ringleader. I play a few creatures but once he has a second lackey and draws 2 gempalms to cycle/kill my blockers he has a piledriver and I have a turn where if i topdeck into a way to get RWM I can live but just draw Hierarch/KOTR and say go. I am eventually able to NO into PRog but can't hold off 20 something damage from all his goblins and curse myself for not having the PTExiles for my board.

1-2

Round 4 Dark Horizons
I continue to play to get a better handle on the deck even though I can't top 4.
Turn 1 zenith into arbor into Hierarch.
Turn 2 NO into Prog and he concedes after his draw as his only out is an edict which I have a creature to sac to.
I board in Jittes and spell pierces for his discard.
I play turn 1 hierarch and turn 2 RWM into turn 3 KOTR and although he swords my creatures again and again (He drew 3) I eventually get Trygon Pred and kill his mox diamond and waste his bayou leaving him with a forest. I eventually draw into a Jitte and he conceeds with 2 lands in play and 2 Deeds in hand.

2-2

Not bad for my first tournament with the deck. The only Maindeck change I'd make is figuring out how to get in the 3rd/4th Wastelands. If the Meta skews more towards control, id prolly put the NO-Prog pkg in the board and have the StnfrgeMystic/Equip pkg in the deck or something else maindeck as getting your NO countered isn't fun.

[Raystar]

...Round 2
I play against an aggro red deck with fireblasts/bolts/ball light/etc..
I go turn 1 zenith into arbor into Hierarch.
He doesn't kill the hierarch or the arbor and I cast turn two NO for Prog and we go to game 2
I board in some spell pierces for dazes. and Jittes for the pridemages/predator
He wins game 2 with me never drawing much other than a KOTR and having swords'd some of his early aggression and he would die to the KOTR when he topdecks a fireblast.
Game 3 I play turn 1 zenith into arbor into Hierarch which he kills on his turn 1
On my turn 2 I play RWM which he REB's on his turn.
I play another next turn which he REB's and then on my turn 5 I GSZ for a 3rd one then equip it with Jitte next turn and his deck just can't handle it after that.
I won, but still wish I had the paths in the board for this matchup...


Man, I hope your opponent doesn't read your report...you can't use the arbor the turn it comes into play :)

[Justin]

Yup. I was going to post this, but you beat me to it. Dryad Arbor is a creature, so it is "sick" the turn it enters the battlefield and cannot be tapped for mana or attack.

[adamt]

well, i obviously need some more testing with the deck and need to RTFC more often (or at least its rulings).

Oddly, the person I was playing against was a judge and the judge for the event was watching our match at the time and didn't notice or say anything.

I have to assume that the Dryad has all sorts of random rules applied to it Oracle-wise that wouldn't effect, say lands animated by living lands and such that were just played that turn (as they CAN be tapped for mana even though they are creatures with sum sickness)..

anyhow.. don't want to derail the thread further.. i'm assembling this deck on MTGO, but can't quite rationalize paying $100 a piece for the FOWs on there so I'll probably stick in some other counters or stifles in their place. I currently have Vials on MTGO as a placeholder for Zeniths (which have been horrible).

Legacy on MTGO is overrun with Counterbalance and the g/w MotherO'Runes/Mangara deck.

[ivanpei]

I'm sort of getting on the non-NO ban wagon. I feel that its win more in this deck. Kotr can often be bigger than progenitus. I've died to a big ass kotr alpha strike after my proggy goes sideways. Of course knight can be chumped and proggy can't, but we have jace the superman at the 4cc slot to win the midrange slugfest anyway albeit in a less dramatic fashion. IMO nobles can be trimmed once NOs are cut. We should not treat noble heirarch as a sacred cow because they take up valuable non-blue slots. In my latest list, I would cut 2 nobles for the 4th kotr and another sylvan. I played zoo with sylvan today and man is that card busted. Zoo functions well with just 4 nobles so I don't see why we can't be fast enough with 6 1 drop accel.

[kiwi]

Today i did top 4 in 45 people tournament.

R1 2-1 vs WG with tarmogoyf, natural orderes, himns, thoughtseize.
R2 2-0 vs eva green
R3 2-1 vs WG control, with innocent blood, hims, planeswalkers, mishra's factory, thoughtseize,
R4 2-1 vs UB or UWB (I dont remenber) Planeswalker control, with force of will, innocent blood, jaces,
R5 ID
R6 ID
Top 8 2-0 againts baseruption, confidants, goyf, counterbalance
Topt 4 0-2 againts counterbalance deck with thopter combo

My decklist is a little sub optimal, for example I would like to play 2 sylvan library but at less I want to play 18 blue cards for force of will



// Lands
2 [U] Tundra
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [ROE] Plains (2)
1 [APL] Forest (2)
1 [IN] Island (1)

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
3 [CNF] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JVC] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Llawan Cephalid empress
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 bojuka bog
SB: 2 [CNF] Path to Exile

Green Sun's Zenith were the nuts, I was always happy for drawing it

[ivanpei]

Congrats kiwi! 3 tarmo only? Even with 4 gsz, tarmo still warrants being run as a 4 off. Nice finish! Did you miss NO at all?

I've finally cut noble from my aggro zenith lists without NO. I realized that the 2nd Sylvan library and the 4th kotr were too important. Not having noble let me bump up my lands to 21 so I can afford to play 3 wastelands. To fill the hole at 1 mana I upped my ponder count to 4. Now I have 20 blue cards and a wonderful mana curve. Though I would still play noble in the NO versions. Credit to cenarius for giving me some food for thought. If you don't run that many high cc cards, you don't capitalize as much on noble's speed boost. Here's my list:

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
2 Jace TMS
4 STP

4 GSZ
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kotr
2 Sylvan library
1 Pridemage

4 Misty
4 Heath
2 Flooded strand
2 Trop
1 Tundra
1 Savanna
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad arbor
3 Wasteland

Much better control/combo MU where kotr spitting out wastelands is such a beating. Sylvan and Jace TMS are the ultimate mid range and control busting bombs as expected. Vial deck MU got weaker though along with other aggro mu's. Not having an I win card with NO really weakened the aggro mu, giving them time to get equipment going or to reach critical mass and swamp me.

[kiwi]

I didnt miss NO, in round 1 I had 3 KotR 13/13, on other hand I recommend you to play 1 Eternal Witness in main deck.

I only played 3 tarmogoyf because with gsz and 4 nobles I have a lot of acceleration and its very easy to find 3 mana in turn 2, but I miss the 4 tarmogoyf in some rounds.

I'll try your list.

[jeanbathez]

I played this version last weekend :

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Spell Pierce

I also had the feeling, if i really need those NO, and often i had only 3 Mana and Natural Order in Hand and can't find the 4 th.
Also i think if i really need NO to win - most of the time, i could have have won without them, and i missed the Nobles ;-)

And it seems interesting, i think without wasteland and canopys my knights weren't that big. Most of the time my Tarmos were big enough.

GSZ were amazing, and Sylvan was fantastic.

My thought was cutting NO package and 3 knights, for 4 Nobles, 2 Jace and ....

[The Duck!!]

I played this version last weekend :

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Spell Pierce

I also had the feeling, if i really need those NO, and often i had only 3 Mana and Natural Order in Hand and can't find the 4 th.
Also i think if i really need NO to win, most of the time, i could have have won without them, and i missed the Nobles ;-)

And it seems interesting, i think without wasteland and canopys my knights weren't that big. Most of the time my Tarmos were big enough.

GSZ were amazing, and Sylvan was fantastic.

My thought was cutting NO package and 3 knights, for 4 Nobles, 2 Jace and ....

I think it's best to run 4 noble hierarchs if you're running the NO-Prog build. Because by turn 3,be it 1st turn noble or 1st gsz for dryad arbor,you can cast NO. Just my opinion though.

[ivanpei]

I think it's best to run 4 noble hierarchs if you're running the NO-Prog build. Because by turn 3,be it 1st turn noble or 1st gsz for dryad arbor,you can cast NO. Just my opinion though.

This is correct, if you play NO you should run Nobles, how many copies is up to you. If you plan to run KOTRs you should play wastelands. If you play wastelands, you can't play nobles because your blue count would be too low and your manasource count (wastelands + coloured lands + nobles) will be too high. So it's either NO-Nobles or KOTRs-Wastelands. This is from my testing.

[jeanbathez]

This is correct, if you play NO you should run Nobles, how many copies is up to you. If you plan to run KOTRs you should play wastelands. If you play wastelands, you can't play nobles because your blue count would be too low and your manasource count (wastelands + coloured lands + nobles) will be too high. So it's either NO-Nobles or KOTRs-Wastelands. This is from my testing.

I'am thinking of cutting NO package and keeping 4 Nobles in, when i played Bant Aggro they were useful most of the time...
You gain a lot of tempo by being able to play around daze and also making your own dazes better, fixing mana and ...all of that had been said x-times..

[ivanpei]

Agreed. I would love to keep noble in the deck. If you are playing NOs, nobles are still excellent and important to power out NO. In the non-no versions, sure you can run nobles if you can optimize your non blue slots to fit them in. On my side I'd rather the 4 nobles be kotr 4, 2 sylvans and the 20th blue spell. Anyone else has updates on the deck? Im pretty happy with my list. Though I'm curious if sylvan or elspeth is better? If you run nobles, can you run 4 walkers? 2 jace/ 2 elspeth.

[Cenarius]

Thanks for the compliments Ivanpei.

Some points:

1. I would play Sylvan Library all day. It wins on it's own against Control, it gives the (extreme) edge against midranged/agro-control decks and it gives (good) deck manipulation against Tribal. The card works like Sensei's Divining Top without tapping for mana, and it can and sometimes will provide Cardadvantage.
2. I'm not sure about cutting Natural Order/Progenitus. I think testresults will have to show this to me. I'm currently running 2 Natural Order and 1 Progenitus.
3. I have an upcomming major tournament at the 10th of April. Therefore, I'm going to test this deck heavily. If I'm convinced about the deck with its matchup percentages, playstyle and whatever more, I'm going to play the deck at the tournament. If not, I'm just going to play my belovedTempo Threshold.
4. @adamt, you have some AWESOME cheats in the game where you: GSZ --> Arbor --> Noble Hierarch.
5. I'm still not sure about Eternal Witness. I think the deck doesn't need the card.

Greetings,

Cenarius

[ivanpei]

IMO, if you play Kotr, you don't need witness as you will be searching for Kotr most of the time. If you don't run Kotr, you want a bomb at 3 cc, so Witness is fine. Oh and btw, in my KOTR-wasteland version, I've cut all basics. I realised that Forest -> GSZ really really sucks. What I really wanted to see was duals. Wastelands is a problem you have to bite because I've been colour screwed alot when they blow up my dual and I'm stuck with 1 basic, 1 dryad arbor with no 3rd colour. I much prefer having all duals/fetches. My manabase for my kotr-waste list is:

4 Misty
4 Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savanna
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

My Kotrs are always Godlike huge with this manabase. :)

[Cenarius]

I'm not sure about that Savannah in your manabase.
The main problem/achievement of the manabase is getting (U)W.

My turn 1 plays are:

Hands with nothing (doubtable but creature creature swords 2 lands is prolly enough): Fetch GO.
Hands with no GSZ but with ponder: Fetch --> Tundra --> Ponder GO.
Hands with no GSZ with ponder with BS: Fetch --> Tundra --> Ponder GO.
Hands with no GSZ no ponder with BS: Fetch GO. Turn 2: Fetch --> Tundra --> Brainstorm
Hands with GSZ no ponder no brainstorm: Fetch --> Tropical --> GSZ into Arbor GO.
Hands with GSZ with ponder no brainstorm: Fetch --> Tropical --> GSZ into Arbor GO.
Hands with GSZ with ponder with brainstorm: Fetch --> Tropical --> GSZ into Arbor GO. Next turn brainstorm (into fetch).

The bold Tundra's are important for your manabase.

Furthermore, I'm going to check 100 hands with 1 Arbor in the manabase and 100 hands with 2 arbors in the manabase. I'm going to check:

1) GSZ + Arbor (with an option on Brainstorm)
2) Arbor (with an option on Brainstorm)
3) No-land hands

My current list runs 18 lands (no wastelands), of which 2 are Dryad Arbor and 2 are Horizon Canopy.

[ivanpei]

I'm not too sure about the 3rd Tundra, I'd honestly rather have the 4th Trop. But that skews the deck too much to Green. You are right, Savanna is a sucky card to open, especially if you can't savanna-> Noble into blue. I like savanna to balance out my colour pie. My usual fetching order is. Trop first, Tundra 2nd, Savanna 3rd. This gives me redundancy if I get wastelanded. If I went Trop, Tundra, Trop, I lose white to a wasteland. I included the Savanna as a sole fetch target. I try to have this redundancy in all decks I run without basics. My coloured mana sources (from lands) is the following:

15 Green (excluding arbor)
15 Blue
14 White

If Savanna got swapped for Tundra, I'd have 14 Green and 16 Blue, which I am not comfortable with. If you are playing double dryad arbor, I agree, the Savanna is unnecessary as you would have plenty of green.

[Ajsmirnov]

But on the other, it improves the effectivness of daze. savanna makes sence when played with basic island. with your mana base I am sure you can change it for tundra

[ivanpei]

I forgot about Daze. Looks like this deck is UGw and not GUw. I'll make the switch. Thanks for the heads up, Cenarius and Ajsmirnov!

Edit: Also, with a Dryad Arbor in play. Tundra -> Savanna.

[Cenarius]

I (nearly) always go:

Tropical (arbor) tundra tundra.

or

tundra tropical (arbor) tundra.

or incase I don't get GSZ in first two turns with either BS (2) or not in hand (1):

Tundra, Tropical, Fetch.

I just don't fetch, when I don't need to.

@ Ivanpei

1 Savanna
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

It's good that you swapped the Savannah for a Tundra, because those lands in addition with one another were pretty much mullable most of the time.

[kiwi]

Im going to play 1 karakas in main deck. Its not strange to find a match againts some Emrakul (or Iona) deck and karakas+ Kotr owns it

[Cenarius]

Karakas mainboard streches your decks' manabase too much. Just put it in your sideboard if you think u'll need it.

[Eksem]

I am really excited about this deck-type. I played in a 10-man 4 swiss no playoffs tournament at my local shop yesterday, and went 4-0. I beat Dragon Stompy, Tezz-control, StifleNought and Zoo, actually only losing one duel and that was mostly because of a bad mulligan decision. This was the actual list:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Eternal Witness
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

1 Rhox War Monk
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Reverent Silence
1 Progenitus
3 Natural Order
1 Armageddon

The sideboard was not so good for the matchups I had, so I have to fine-tune it a bit going forward. The maindeck is greedy in every possible sense, I think. Everything from threat count, to blue count, to mana, to answers are at the least amount possible or perhaps lower; however the only thing that really felt like a problem yesterday was the number of blue cards. That has to go up somehow. I was constantly pitching Dazes and Pierces to FoW, which I'm usually not too happy about. It really limited my sideboarding options as well.

However, other than that, the deck was great and I am really looking forward to see how it develops.

[ivanpei]

Grats on the finish! I've made some observations on mine, it's too card draw heavy. I run:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jace TMS

I felt that during testing with aggro, I was cantripping into cantrip too much and 2 Jace 2 Sylvan was heavy hand clogging gas. I'm going to cut a Ponder and a Sylvan for a Rhox War Monk and a Path to improve the aggro MU.

[Cenarius]

What I dislike about your statement (above) is that you're suggesting that you're changing your deck after (only) a few games. Changes to the deck should be made after series of testresults. Maybe you lost those games, because your deck shitted on you. Maybe you lost those matches, because you didn't have Natural Order in your deck. Maybe your opponent just went the nuts and the only thing you could do about is actually pick up your deck and play the next game.

What do you think about the vision of the thread? Should the thread disappear once Bant Agro picked Green Sun's Zenith? Or?
As for a name: Zenith-Order is for some of you guys, running Jace, the Mindsculptor, a bit outdated. Shouldn't we put Bant Agro 2.0 or NBA: New Bant Agro or some other fancy name?

[ivanpei]

Deck lists are evolving. I made some observations and just plan on sharing them. I didn't make the decision based on "just on a few games". I tested against gobbos, zoo and various other aggro decks. I don't play 2-3 games. I play up to 10-12 to identify persisting trends. I then go back to the drawing board and try to fix up the problems.

As you can see, though the name sake of the deck is Zenith-Order, It takes a lot to support NO optimally. I'm not completely discounting the NO versions, its still strong as heck but I've already settled on a firm decklist. As for the KOTR-waste versions, my decklist is still swaying and I will go through many iterations of testing before I settle on an all around list I like.

I might seem like I change my mind alot, but I'm trying out new ideas and combinations until I find something that works. Right now, I'd play the NO lists because the meta is mostly tribal, aggro and midrange. NO dominates most of those MUs. However if the meta turns combo/controllish, I'd like to be ready with a Kotr-Wasteland list thats fully tuned and optimized. I think I have the luxury of having too much spare time to brainstorm and own most of the Staples I need for decks to freely test.

[GGoober]

Ivan, which list seems stronger in general? I'm leaning towards UGw since it has favorable matchups against everything although GWb seems better against aggro variants and a little weaker against control/combo.

Regardless, I think 4 GSZ might be a little too clunky. I've been testing 3 GSZ to be ideal in such a deck. Even if you can accelerate Arbor turn 1, you have to ask the question: "do I want that GSZ to be an extra land/arbor in this matchup?"

The number that I'm happy with testing is:
4 Hierarchs (4 is a must since it powers out GSZ into relevant threats and is just easily needed with natural orders), and is still easily one of the best green cards in the format
4 Goyf
2 Pridemage
2 Warmonk
2-3 KotR
1 Trygon

3 GSZ

EWitness is unneccesarily win more. It's quite mana intensive, but her power is there to redo the whole cycle of zenith/orders. I dislike Teeg MD in the UGW list. The maindeck disruption is good enough, and he's better in the SB to not clash with the tribal matchups.

[ivanpei]

I feel the UGW NO lists are overall "stronger". If you play 4 Nobles, 3 GSZ is fine. I play 4 Noble, 4 GSZ because its just too good. However, playing this combination really drops your blue count. I play 19 blue cards (excluding proggy) and that's the bare minimum I'd run. I play 3 Warmonks, 1 Pridemage, 1 Eternal Witness, 0 KOTRs and 2 Cliques. The witness is important to recycle my Pridemage/Swords/Path/NO/FOW.

No KOTRs because the deck can't play wastes and has a low fetchland count. When I drop KOTR in the NO-lists, he is usually a 3/3 or a 4/4, which is not good enough. I play a counter suit of 4 Daze, 4 FOW because I always tap out and never have mana up for spell pierce. The tempo problem of daze is somewhat negated by the acceleration provided by GSZ/Noble.

I use clique as disruption cards 9/10. Clique is excellent because it comes down a turn before Natural Order to nab a counterspell/perish/warren weirding. It's very useful as a duress before NO, or an evasive flying threat once you've gummed up the ground with Tarmos and Warmonks.

This is what I'd run in a tournament today:

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Tarmo
3 Warmonk
2 Clique
1 Pridemage
1 Witness

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force
4 Daze
4 STP
3 No
1 Proggy

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Heath
4 Misty
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savanna

The weaker MU is combo, as I have no wastes and a light disruption suit. Aggro, tribal and midrange MUs are good with control MUs slightly more difficult. Jacestill is a terrible MU, 4c countertop is not as bad. Since I don't run KOTR, Eternal witness is the 3cc 1-off bomb that I run as Gas vs control. I might have my NO countered, but I can GSZ for witness and do it again next turn + have the body to sack to NO.

[Paul45p]

yesterday i played my lokal tourney in berlin and got 3rd (5-1). this was the list i played:

NO Sun in Bant:

Maindeck:
4 force of will
4 Tarmogoyf
4 brainstorm
4 noble hierarch
4 swords to plowshares
3 natural order
1 progenitus
3 daze
3 spell pierce
2 quasali pridemage
2 rhox war monk
3 green’s sun zenith
2 knight of the reliquary
3 ponder

1 wasteland
1 dryads arbour
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 savannah
3 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
1 forest

sideboard:
1 karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 path to exile
2 engineered explosives
1 spell pierce
2 umezawas jitte
1 gaddock teeg
2 pithing needle
1 vexing shusher
1 loaming shaman

one game i'd ve loved to search for a wittness but i don't really know what to cut. any suggestions?
the next problem i had was that i nearly always had to side out daze and/or pierce and therefore had to take out FoW aswell because of the bluecount.
what do you guys think about playing spell snare instead of spell pierce?

[ivanpei]

Grats on the finish! Snare > Pierce if you see more aggro. It catches Tarmos, Merfolk, standstill, counterbalance etc. Doesn't stop Jace/NO tough so it's a trade off. An under played card I love is propaganda. It stops decks cold. Its one of the best tools against tribal. I know people have been playing dueling grounds forever but propaganda is easier to cast and is blue. You can pitch extra copies to force, which allows you to play up to 3/4 Copies in the board. You still need path in the board though as you have to deal with KOTR and Coralhelm Commando.

Some stuff I think you don't need in the board:
Loaming Shaman- Too slow, dredge/reanimator would have killed you already. I'd rather have Relic/Crypt as if you draw it, It does something in the early turns.
2 EE and 1 Jitte should probably be propaganda if you need something blue against aggro.

[ivanpei]

Btw, sorry to double post, but has anyone noticed how sucky basics are in Zenith decks? Am I the only one? I hate the forest > Zenith/Noble play. I can't have Daze up and sometimes I can't cast the T2 Clique. I always want to lead with a Trop T1 and I've already maxed out on my Trops. I decided to cut all basics and play 10 fetches. Then I realised I could be greedy and trim coloured duals for wastes. With wastes and a high fetchland count, why not play KOTR? I'll be testing my "greedy Zenith" list tonight:

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Tarmogoyf
2 KOTR
2 Rhox
2 Clique
1 Pridemage

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force
4 Daze
4 STP
3 NO
1 Proggy

4 Misty
4 Heath
2 Flooded
4 Trop
1 Tundra
1 Savanna
2 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Not playing basics should not be an issue. The deck has 27 possible mana sources (19 lands + 8 accel) and 6 cantrips. I can't possibly imagine how you can get mana screwed by wasteland unless you are extremely unlucky. As for Bloodmoon, you have to keep a hand with either Force, Daze or Noble on the play. Not to shabby really. Will update on results.

[wizard_of_gore]

Hi to all zenith fans :)
First of all, sorry for my bad knowledge of english grammar.
I'm new here on source, but not new at legacy, and especially to mtg at all ;)

Well, i must admit that I'm quite excited about new green sorcery (almost like most of you) came out in MBS, and like other people here, i would like to develop "new engine" for UGW/GWB decks with your help ;)

Speaking of that, last SCG is flooded with GSZ :S
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event.php?e=408#3398
Seems like WG aggro (natural horizons) with zenith is also viable option

There is a big legacy event i'm planing to go in about 3 weeks, so after a lot of testing, i decided to pick a bant deck with zenith engine! For know, it shows good results. Mana base is very greedy, but who gives a fuck! Adding basics in problematic mana base would cause only more problems. One random wasteland can be crucial, but in most games, it won't take any effect since we have 7-8 accelerators on 1 turn. Few basics in deck won't save you from artillery of wastes, stifles, vindicates, sinkholes, blood moon/B2B etc...

This is my version of zenith-order bant:

4x Noble hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Qasali pridemage
2x Knight of the reliquary
1x Rhox war monk
2x Vendilion clique
1x Progenitus

3x Green sun's zenith
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of will
4x Daze
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Jace, the mind sculptor
3x Natural order
2x Umezzava's jitte

4x Windswept heath
3x Misty rainforest
4x Tropical island
2x tundra
1x Savannah
3x wasteland
1x Dryad arbor

SB: Meta would be a lot of combo, dredge, affinity, some bant/countertops/landstill, and some goblins and merfolks for sure.
2x Relic of progenitus
2x Tormod's crypt
2x Kataki, war's wage
3x spell pierce
2x mindbreak trap
2x Engineered explosives
2x Krosan grip

Well, any comment, feedback, and advice is MORE THAN WELCOME.

[Eksem]

I think that Jitte is not really needed, Rhox War Monk gives you lifegain and Progenitus races pretty much anything that Jitte would handle.

18 lands and no basic lands is a bit too greedy, especially when Dryad Arbor dies so easliy.

Kataki could perhaps be replaced by Trygon Predator, since you can fetch Trygon with GSZ.

Jace and NO Prog in the same deck seems tight, but it could probably work, tough you could probably just run Ponder instead for curve-reasons.

If it's a lot of combo, I think that you could run some number of Spell Pierce in the maindeck, and Gaddock Teeg in the sideboard. GT is very unsynergistic with a lot of cards in your deck, but if you have a GT and, let's say, a Goyf beating on them for 5-6 a turn while they are digging for CoV you are probably in a fine position.

Just my thoughts, I am no expert.

[wizard_of_gore]

Thanx for your opinion :)
Jitte is here for aggro matchups to shore up with merfolks/goblins. And also kills dudes like Bobs, moms, lavamancers, hierarchs, random goblins/merfolks/elves/winnies and so on. RWM is good against aggro but sometimes lifelink is not enough to establish yourself. This is why i play 1 of it. I can search him with zenith, and i search for him when i desperatly need lifegain.
Jace is so good, and NO is so good, so i decide to play both of themn. I see your point - 5 4cc bombs in 18 land deck is meeeh.Bbut 4 nobles and 3 zenith fix it.
The same reason you mention about Gaddock teeg, the same reason is why i don't play it :D 3 spell pierces and 2 mindbreak is here to fight combo.
Trygon is too slow to kill affinity, and can't take care of etched champion, which is worst nightmare for my deck (especially with cranial plating on it). Kataki simply kills affinity.

[ivanpei]

Tested about 6-7 games last night. No basics is fine. Actually I prefer running no basics. I always want a trop T1 into accelerator and daze. Kotr is beasting and so was wasteland. Truthfully I won most of my games with threat overload. GSZ gives you such a high threat density that the threats just don't stop coming. I think 18 lands with 3 being wasteland is extremely greedy. I play 19 with 2 wastes. IMO 16 colored + 1 dryad arbor is the bare minimum. As for Jace, not needed if you play NO. @ jitte, NO does the same thing, unless you are worried about burn. Either play NO or Jace+jitte but not both. I'm currently trying very hard to fit in the 3rd waste and the 3rd kotr. Space is very tight though. I might just drop NO all together as I usually just win by Kotr.

I'll be testing: - 3 NO, -1 Proggy, - 2 Rhox, + 2 Jace + 2 KOTR, +2 Wastelands. In my opinion, Natural Order is pass it's prime. KOTR is just a much better threat at a cheaper cost. They both finish games extremely quickly, and Kotr disrupts by wastelanding every turn. Also, the 4cc slot in Bant Zenith is already taken, it's: GSZ for KOTR. I always had NO clogging my hand when I was busy casting KOTRs or GSZ into KOTR. I dislike going NO first because if it got countered and I lost a land along with it, I would be in a bad spot. I didn't win any of my games last night with NO, while I won all of them by denying resources with Wasteland/Knight and going in with fatties. Has anyone else noticed this?

[The Duck!!]

I played in a legacy tournament this sunday using this list. Got in 7th place. Lost to sui black because of some crucial misplays. but was happy with the results. here's my list.

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
1 progenitus
1 rafiq of the many
1 vendilion clique
1 eternal witness
1 trygon predator
1 qasali pridemage

4 force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 green sun's zenith
2 natural order
3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 elspeth knight errant

4 misty rainforest
3 floode strand
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
1 forest
1 island
1 plains

sideboard :
(since meta where I play has a lot of combos and belchers, this is my sideboard)
4 spell pierce
3 stifle
2 stoneforge mystic
2 umezawa's jitte
2 krosan grip
2 tormod's crypt

[The Duck!!]

Tested about 6-7 games last night. No basics is fine. Actually I prefer running no basics. I always want a trop T1 into accelerator and daze. Kotr is beasting and so was wasteland. Truthfully I won most of my games with threat overload. GSZ gives you such a high threat density that the threats just don't stop coming. I think 18 lands with 3 being wasteland is extremely greedy. I play 19 with 2 wastes. IMO 16 colored + 1 dryad arbor is the bare minimum. As for Jace, not needed if you play NO. @ jitte, NO does the same thing, unless you are worried about burn. Either play NO or Jace+jitte but not both. I'm currently trying very hard to fit in the 3rd waste and the 3rd kotr. Space is very tight though. I might just drop NO all together as I usually just win by Kotr.

I'll be testing: - 3 NO, -1 Proggy, - 2 Rhox, + 2 Jace + 2 KOTR, +2 Wastelands. In my opinion, Natural Order is pass it's prime. KOTR is just a much better threat at a cheaper cost. They both finish games extremely quickly, and Kotr disrupts by wastelanding every turn. Also, the 4cc slot in Bant Zenith is already taken, it's: GSZ for KOTR. I always had NO clogging my hand when I was busy casting KOTRs or GSZ into KOTR. I dislike going NO first because if it got countered and I lost a land along with it, I would be in a bad spot. I didn't win any of my games last night with NO, while I won all of them by denying resources with Wasteland/Knight and going in with fatties. Has anyone else noticed this?

I have thought of that but when I played NO-Prog variant of GSZ this sunday, it was somehow consistent on turn 4 or turn 5, I'll be casting NO to Prog. sometimes, by turn 6, the match is over. just my opinion though. but I would also like to try the KotR-Wasteland variant of GSZ.

[kiwi]

I like the main deck of ivanpei, but with this change -1 vendilion clique +1 trygon predator, he is very good againts affinity, counterbalance, stacks, enchantress, dragon stompy, equips, vials, etc...

Main deck:

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [REW] Wasteland
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [U] Tundra
1 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CNF] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [JVC] Daze
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

I dont like to play rhox wark monk for these reason againts tribal we have other creatures and vs zoo variants they have bigger creatures than rhox war monk, they can burn monk with lavamancer + some bolt and moreover monk can be owned by red elemental blast.

With this deck I found some problems for beating zoo decks and I think that rhox war monk is not the solution. Suggestions ?

[The Treefolk Master]

I hate to say it, but Rhox War Monk is probably the best answer... Other than that, maybe EE, Path to Exile as additional removal. MAYBE Kitchen Finks.

Q: In a meta with Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo, which version is better, with NO or without it?

[ivanpei]

Thanks kiwi.

@ Treefolk, the NO-rhox lists are probably best. Don't get greedy with wastes and Kotrs. Stick with basics and rhox. The game plan is stick goyf/rhox. Drop NO, hold the ground and win.

[owenzzz]

Just having the idea to replace Vendillion with Cryptoplasm? I will be testiing this due to the following factors:

1. Can morph into tarmogoyf, Knight, Rhox
2. Good against Show and tell matchup
3. Good at copying creatures if you don't have in your board.

cons:
1. will be like a sitting duck for a turn but will be good as Swords
2. Being a sitting duck, cannot be a blocker for a turn

Just trying this tech. I know that Vendillion has a synergy with NO and the peek factor. Also, Instant speed is quite good. Any advise??

[Final Fortune]

Vendilion Clique is unreplaceable IMO, between 4 Noble Hierarch and 4 Green Sun's Zenith acclerating turn 2 Vendilion Clique, turn 3 Natural Order I've wanted to 3x Vendilion Clique in the deck because it provides the missing disruption from absentee counters while being a 5 turn evasive clock with exalted or the perfect Umezawa's Jitte carrier (FoW fodder, yadda, yadda) I think you need 3 Vendilion Clique if you want to resolve Natural Order vs New Horizons or beat TES, it's literally holding up my win percentage vs. a variety of matches.

In short, Clique is baller.

[ivanpei]

@ final fortune, I'm glad you like my suggestion of clique. She really is a baller. Even after I cut NO, I still kept the cliques for the reasons you stated. 2 is perfect for me, 3 maybe a good idea for a control/combo meta. @ cryptoplasm, doesn't hurt to test, though probably sb material. The list that t8ed scg played cold eyes selkie. Anyone has success with this? It's like super bob against blue. One exalted swing and it's GG. Probably a good sb card.

[bob2008]

I am going to a huge (from a German point of view) tourney this weekend. I find it very hard to

predict the meta but I expect a lot of Junk and MBC. But of course some combo / show and tell as

well . Like I said -an unpredictable meta...

So I was looking for a consistent all-rounder and decided to test the GSZ-Order variant which is

discusses so intensively here. My play-testing so far leads to only one conclusion:

Man! This deck rocks! However I am not sure about some fine tuning and I would like to hear some

criticism and constructive feedback from you guys.

My current list:

4 noble
4 tarmo
2 rhox war monk
1 tyrgon predator
1 quasali
1 ved. Clique ( a baller cpmpletely right ! )
1 dryad arbor
1 progenitus

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 spell snare
4 daze
4 force of will
4 swords to plow
3 GSZ
3 natural order

1 forest
1 island (in testing against tempo decks the two basics had really proven their value)
4 tropical
3 tundra
1 savannah
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strands

My sideboard:

2 pithing needle (against vial, recurring wastelands, Jace …)
2 path to exile (aggro mu)
2 engineered explosives ( TES, Belcher, aggro, CB)
4 tormonds crypt (dredge and friends)
4 spell pierce (combo, especially sneak show)
1 Gaddock teeg (combo)

opinions ? criticism ?

thanks in advance

best regards,

bob

[Eksem]

Speaking of Spell Snare, I do prefer Spell Pierce in that slot since Spell Pierce is much better when you need to win counterspell wars. Usually this deck is the one that resolves the most devastating spells, meaning that it's more important to, let's say, make sure you resolve NO than countering their Coralhelm Commander. It's a meta-thing of course, but worth discussing I think.

Considering Ponder, I would at most run 2. It does have it's uses, but 3 or 4 Ponders are slots that should and could be more useful for other stuff.

Looking at some of you other people's sideboards, how about Null Rod? Should be good against combo-decks that rely on LED, as well as SDT, Vial and Jitte + Swords.

On another forum someone suggested Wash Out, which seems like a fine card to try.

I am liking the NO-lists that are being developed a lot, they are really looking like they are getting somewhere, and I will try that variant later on (I have sketched up a few lists, but have not been satisfied with the ones I have made).

[ivanpei]

I actually quite like Null Rod in today's meta. It shuts down MUD decks, they have little outs. Also, it wrecks alot of the decks out there already: Countertop (Thopthers, Top, Shackles, EE). Other noteworthy ones are: Aether Vial, Equipment, Combo. Actually, what isn't null rod good against? Oh thats right, us. We are totally immune to the Rod.

[bob2008]

Speaking of Spell Snare, I do prefer Spell Pierce in that slot since Spell Pierce is much better when you need to win counterspell wars. Usually this deck is the one that resolves the most devastating spells, meaning that it's more important to, let's say, make sure you resolve NO than countering their Coralhelm Commander. It's a meta-thing of course, but worth discussing I think.

Considering Ponder, I would at most run 2. It does have it's uses, but 3 or 4 Ponders are slots that should and could be more useful for other stuff.

Looking at some of you other people's sideboards, how about Null Rod? Should be good against combo-decks that rely on LED, as well as SDT, Vial and Jitte + Swords.

On another forum someone suggested Wash Out, which seems like a fine card to try.

I am liking the NO-lists that are being developed a lot, they are really looking like they are getting somewhere, and I will try that variant later on (I have sketched up a few lists, but have not been satisfied with the ones I have made).


You might be right about the third ponder. I think that slot should be some kind of card quality/draw so the possibilities are:

Jace2.0 ( very tasty but cmc4 is pretty high )
sylvan library ( very good but lowers the blue count of the deck)
or as mentioned above: cold eyes selkie

I also pondered about changing one tundra to a horizon canopy...

regards,

bob

[PaRa]

Hey Bob,

looking forward to see you on Saturday and i can totally understand your fear of Sneak&Show :P But when i'm not playing it there should not be many others :D

What do you actually think about some tutorable grave hate? I'm thinking of 1 Loaming Shaman instead of the 4th Crypt for e.g. Sure it costs you 4 mana but it also can get back your threads if needed.

[Cenarius]

I'm still content with my Noble Hierarch-less NO list. For those of you that haven't seen it, here's my list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator

1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to plowshares

4 Ponder
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order

2 Sylvan Library

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswepth Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Dryad Arbor

Blue count: 20 (+1 Progenitus).
Creature count: 11 (+4 GSZ).
Deck manipulation: 10.
Counters: 10.

GSZ ramps enough. Games without GSZ normally have cantrips, so therefore you're busy every single game (early game).

Further comments:
Loaming Shaman will come too late. Dredge wins on average on turn 2/3.
I'm disagreeing #3 and #4 ponder. They're obviously really good, when playing 18 lands. On the other hand, maybe I'm just too used to playing 8 cantrips (Tempo Threshold player from origin).
Spell Pierce vs. Spell Snare. Both have it's benefit, though I like to win counterwars regarding Sylvan Library/Natural Order. Therefore I'm playing Spell Pierce. To me: this deck is actually only afraid of planeswalkers/enchantments/artifacts/random combo instants and sorcery's.
@ kiwi, I also don't like RWM, however one copy should be played in such a metagame. You can tutor for it and otherwise just ignore it.

[bob2008]

Hey Bob,

looking forward to see you on Saturday and i can totally understand your fear of Sneak&Show :P But when i'm not playing it there should not be many others :D

What do you actually think about some tutorable grave hate? I'm thinking of 1 Loaming Shaman instead of the 4th Crypt for e.g. Sure it costs you 4 mana but it also can get back your threads if needed.

Moin Du,

Well, I think sneak show is growing in popularity (at least two guys from our cars are going to play it) so I like to be prepared. Needle and pierce from the board seem like a good start.
Not sure about the GY hate... the issue with dredge is that you usually want to have your hate available immediately.
See you on saturday...

regards,

bob

[PaRa]

Tach :)

If the two guys want a short chat about their Sneak list let me know!

Well you have quite a few counters for the relevant cards against dredge (Breakthrough/Careful Study/Pimp/Tireless Tribe) If they don't have the nuts hand they will start of slowly against you so actually having a way to deal with the yard later on can't be bad! Also the Shaman will be for sure unexpected ;)

[ivanpei]

Actually anyone want to start a discussion about Crypt vs Relic? I find that decks with KOTR should run crypt but relic is more powerful in general. T1 Relic against Dredge is very strong. You just keep vacumming his dredgers till he runs out. However if he is smart and boards in chain/grudges, he will force you to pop your relic, which will shrink your knights and goyfs.

Which do you guys prefer?

[Eksem]

So I ran a list similar to the last one yesterday, but without NO Prog anywhere in the 75 (which turned out to be a mistake). I went 1-3, losing stupid duels that I could have won if I had played tighter and basically missing having access to Progenitus mostly all evening. I got stuck in several annyoing board stalls (especially against aggro Elves) that had I just had a Progenitus or even just a creature with evasion (like Clique) would have won me the game. I will certainly try out some type of Progenitus list going forward.

When it comes to graveyard hate, if I can't run Leyline of the Void, I just mix it up to avoid Pithing Needle. I like Tormod's Crypt a bit better though, in decks that depend to some extent on it's own graveyard. When you have KotR you could probably run a 1-of Bojuka Bog as well.

[hyc8028]

I haven't test this deck yet, but I am thinking to put together something like this.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierach
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
17

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce/Daze
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
24

3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Forest
19

# of Creature: 17 with Progenitus
Blue Count: 22 with Progenitus

KOTR is really strong, but I feel like you need utility land/wasteland to make it work and out list is very tight. Like everyone said above, we need to pick between KOTR/Wasteland or NO/Pro. I increase the Clique and Warmonk to 3 of because war monk is really good against aggro. Clique is my favorite creature of all time and EOT clique and NO the next turn seem very powerful.

Being a blue mage myself, I feel like 19 blue count is a bit low myself. I feel a lot comfortable with 21 or 22. The 3rd clique/warmonk can be more ponder or maybe I should use those slots to run 3 daze/3 pierce configuration. Any comments/suggestions?

[ivanpei]

I don't like pierce MD. You are almost always tapping out from my experience. Also, you have too many 3 drops. I'd advise cutting Trygon Predator, possibly for the 4th GSZ. Card is just too good. Rest of the list looks good!

[Cenarius]

Based on several lists we can conclude the following:

Noble Hierarch-less decks run automatically 4 Green Sun's Zenith, since it's their only ramp.
Noble Hierarch builds tend to run 3 Green Sun's Zenith. This is what I would do, if I play 4 Noble Hierarch.
Noble Hierarch builds have a harder time running enough blue cards for Force of Will. So what you'll see is that they do not run Knight of the Reliquary, but instead play more blue creatures (Rhox War Monk, Clique) than Noble Hierarch-less builds.

I don't like Noble Hierarch (bad topdeck after turn 1) and I do not like Rhox War Monk (weak in midranged/control). Therefore my passion for (more) broken cards like Knight of the Reliquary, Sylvan Library and more Ponder's (playing 18 lands).

About Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt/Bojuka Bog.

I run all of them once, mainly because I like the diversity. Something to mention: Relic is also good against Loam decks/Lands etc.

[Final Fortune]

FWIW, 4 Noble Hierarch is better than no Noble Hierarch, a lot of the BANT vs BANT games are won or lost on the back of exalted, I actually think Green Sun's Zenith just replaces the 4 Rhox Warmonk/Knight of the Reliquarys with 1GG Tarmogoyfs while being ramp because a lot of the games just come down to Goyfvantage and Exalted 4TW.

This is what I'm running atm,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

[Ajsmirnov]

I didnt test much last week, was playing tournaments with Countertop, but in spite of that i have some thoughts to share.

In my list the count of blue cards is low, and I cannot play Kotr. So I just play 3 RWM. Also I found Sylvan Library being extremely useful in getting the right cards in the right time. It adds power to the deck.
About Natural Order - definitely should be played. In sideboard if meta is very much control and combo, but it must be in your 75.
I played argainst 4c Countertop, Goblins, BGW Rock and GW Maverick - every match I had NO I was able to cast it with counter backup and it helped winning a lot. My list:
4 Tropical
2 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
Still not shure, is it ok to play 3 basic lands, or should be less. And how much is Savannah needed, by now I don't play it.

A friend says there must be a good Zenith-fetchable kill condition, like Mystic Enforcer. There is sence in it, but I cannot find room in the deck so I keep him in the list of possible options

[ivanpei]

@ final fortune, I think some rwm is in order. I'd say at least 1. Looks like you prefer equipment on cliques/ goyfs instead. Interesting build type. This maybe useful as in a midrange mu, warmonk is useless while jitte kicks ass against mana dudes, kotrs and goyfs.

Regarding a fetchable kill con, ur tarmogoyf? Maybe you mean a shroud-protection kill con. Mystic enforcer is not so good because it can still be plowed. If you mean explosiveness, rafiq is best. Makes proggy a one swing kill. If you are looking for shroud, thrun should be ok. I personally won't run either and just play more kotr/monks cliques.

[Cenarius]

Ok, I played several games against teammates yesterday and here are my foundings. My list is on the same page as this post.

1. TES is a bad matchup. We have a slow clock and our countersuite (4 force, 3 daze, 3 spell pierce) can't really stop them from combo-ing.
2. 4 Knight of the reliquary is too much, definitely going to 3. I'd like a non-creature replacement for that, most likely: Spell Snare. I believe I'm playing too much creatures. I actually believe that 2 KOTR's might even ben better, but first I'll test 3.
3. I got the feeling that tempo decks are slightly positive. Went 4-2 against dreadstill and the games I lost had 6+ (2 plows for arbors) manabase disruption. Your lategame is better than theirs. I also tested some games against Dark Tempo Threshold, and nearly the same results were shown there aswell.
4.A teammate of mine suggested +2 natural order's (extra) for the sideboard against Rock/Zoo/Decks that can't counter/Goblins etc. I think that might be really good.
5. Every time I hold a Natural order/Progenitus from now on, will also be seen as a Jace, the Mindsculptor. I'm still not sure.

So that's it.

[Ajsmirnov]

Tastes differ. As a tempo-threshold player you're comfortable with 8 cantrips ano 0 hierarchs. I like maximum chances to NO turn 3, so 4 hierarchs are ok in my deck.
In your list I would play Jaces mainboard. And maybe 3 NO + Prog in SB.

About TES matchup - people in the thread are right, Vendilion Clique is very good here, maybe really unreplaceable.

@ivanpei
The idea to play Mystic enforcer was not to have a kill con with protection, but to have a flying one. Yes, they can plow it. And if they don't - it's a huge therat, swinging for 7-8 in the air. But again, there is no room in the deck for enforcer. Other cards are better or more needed, so by now I don't play it.

[Cenarius]

I don't believe it's hard for me to play Natural Order (in terms of creature problems or ramping into NO), if I have the card in my hand. In my opinion you do not need Noble Hierarch in a list that already plays 3/4 Green Sun's Zenith to power out Natural Order in turn 3/4. I've been saying this now for 3/4 pages and I actually hate repetition. Can you maybe give my list a try (the non-noble hierarch list)? I've tested 2 lists with Noble Hierarch and quickly got myself convinced that it's just not good. Getting good decklists can only be done by testing and not by speculation about the pro's and con's of certain decklists.

1 Vendilion Clique will only slightly change the TES matchup.

[Final Fortune]

Noble Hierarch is fine, it just depends on whether or not you want to concentrate on accelerating into NO (maybe Jace) or you want to trade Exalted(less) Tarmogoyfs for 3cc Green fat or 2 Mystic/2 Jitte packages.

Yeah, 1 Vendilion Clique wont change the TES match up, but 3 Vendilion Clique definitely will. Honestly, I don't know how you're resolving your NO without Vendilion Clique(s) MD, Spell Pierce hasn't been getting the job done for me even SBed. You really, really need Clique, it's way more important to your central plan than just another dumb 3cc grean beater and even just an exalted Clique is a pretty significant threat at that.

[ivanpei]

I admit I really don't like clique in other blue decks for being too slow but she fits perfectly in this deck, especially the NO versions. She's better if you play nobles + gsz because 3 mana is a pretty heavy cost. I've realised that the noble-NO versions needs some extra gas against control so I've bumped up my cllique count to 3, replacing the 4th daze. I replaced the plains in the manabase with a karakas and voilà, instant gas vs control. Those who have experienced the clique-karakas combo will know how powerful it is. It's like Jace's fateseal every turn. Dodging removal is pretty sweet too. You bash on your turn, bounce it and clique on opponents draw step, repeat. Btw guys, always remember you can clique yourself if you have progenitus stuck in hand. Here's the latest list:

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Tarmo
3 Rwm
3 Clique
1 Kotr
1 Pridemage

4 Fow
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stp
3 NO
1 Proggy

1 Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty
4 Heath
4 Tropical
2 Tundra
1 Savanna

I also replaced the witness for Kotr. Even though kotr is not the optimum size for this deck without more fetches/wastes, playing 1 as a tutor target to break the midrange mirror is ok since he can grow himself/ tutor out a game winning karakas. If you are feeling greedy, you can -1 Rwm, -2 basics, + 1 fetch + 1 waste.

[hyc8028]

I admit I really don't like clique in other blue decks for being too slow but she fits perfectly in this deck, especially the NO versions. She's better if you play nobles + gsz because 3 mana is a pretty heavy cost. I've realised that the noble-NO versions needs some extra gas against control so I've bumped up my cllique count to 3, replacing the 4th daze. I replaced the plains in the manabase with a karakas and voilà, instant gas vs control. Those who have experienced the clique-karakas combo will know how powerful it is. It's like Jace's fateseal every turn. Dodging removal is pretty sweet too. You bash on your turn, bounce it and clique on opponents draw step, repeat. Btw guys, always remember you can clique yourself if you have progenitus stuck in hand. Here's the latest list:

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Tarmo
3 Rwm
3 Clique
1 Kotr
1 Pridemage

4 Fow
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stp
3 NO
1 Proggy

1 Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty
4 Heath
4 Tropical
2 Tundra
1 Savanna

I also replaced the witness for Kotr. Even though kotr is not the optimum size for this deck without more fetches/wastes, playing 1 as a tutor target to break the midrange mirror is ok since he can grow himself/ tutor out a game winning karakas. If you are feeling greedy, you can -1 Rwm, -2 basics, + 1 fetch + 1 waste.

We have a very similar list. Have you done any testing?

I might be crazy, but I might want the 4th clique also. She is just good. Protect NO, Clock, Pitch to FoW, Disruption all in one card.

[ivanpei]

Planning to sling this list at the next Legacy testing session. I've tested the old list (2 Cliques, 1 Witness, no karakas) list extensively and it rocks vs aggro/tribal. High threat density + NO is very good vs aggro. Against control, it was hurting. They can play around daze, they deal with your threats and you get 2-1ed if your NO gets countered. It's not terrible, but I felt the control MU could be a bit better. Clique was MVP in the midrange/control MU. She is an evasive beater in the air that is ridiculously strong with Exalted + strips my opponent's best card. She kills a brainstorming Jace TMS very well. Against combo, the deck felt weak, so Clique is very important in this MU. Turn 1 Accel into T2 Clique is the ideal play. I always wanted more cliques.

Karakas + Clique is ridiculous. Against control, if you set this up, you just win (Have 3 cliques, GSZ > KOTR into karakas). Against aggro, if you naturally draw into the combo, it's pretty sick too. I've held off a KOTR by block/bounce clique and target myself with clique to basically dig 2 cards a turn, looking for an answer. In general she's awesome, but 4 might be too much, her legendary status is a blessing and a curse at the same time. Also she is heavy (3 mana) and not very good vs aggro. I'd rather have another warmonk than the 4th clique. 3 is max for me unless the meta turn's midrangy-combo-control.

[Cenarius]

First some conclusions:

I have come to the conclusion that I want less creatures in my list. Mainly because Green Sun's Zenith up's your creature count tremendously. 11 creatures + GSZ is a little bit too much for me. I'm definitely going to cut some Knight of the Reliquary.
I've also come to the conclusion that this decks' lategame is better than most Midranged decks. Green Sun's Zenith (tutor ability) + Sylvan Library + NO-plan/Jace, the Mindscultpor are all excellent cards for the lategame.

I'm going to test Jace, the Mindsculptor.

This will be the list I'm going to test:

(Creatures: 10)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique I think all arguments were giving in previous posts. This deck has a hard time against Combo & Control without 'em.
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Knight of the Reliquary

(Enchantments: 2)
2 Sylvan Library

(Instants: 20)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

(Planeswalkers: 2)
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

(Sorcery: 8)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder

(Lands: 18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor (going to test if one is enough if you don't play Noble Hierarch's and NO/PRO)
2 Horizon Canopy

This makes that this deck has:

26 Blue Cards I like that a lot, sir.

This decks' counterbase is:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique

Which is ok. This is probably as close as this deck can get, in becomming Tempo Threshold without swapping the Green Sun's Zenith engine.

This deck has a rediculous amount of deck manipulation:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

I'll post some test results as soon as I can get them.

[The Duck!!]

Hey guys,this is the list that I ran when I played in a legacy tournament last february 27. Check it out. Comments and suggestions will also be appreciated. Got 7th place in the tournament.

Main Deck(60):
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
1 progenitus
1 rafiq of the many
1 eternal witness
1 trygon predator
1 qasali pridemage
1 vendilion clique
4 force of will
4 daze
4 bainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 green sun's zenith
2 natural order
3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 elspeth, knight errant
4 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 savannah
1 dryad arbor
1 forest
1 island
1 plains

Sideboard(15):
4 spell pierce
3 stifle
2 stoneforge mystic
2 umezawa's jitte
2 tormod's crypt
2 krosan grip

Actually with the SB, it's still got some work to do but the funny thing was, I only boarded in some of my sideboard once. That's why I considered myself lucky in that turnament. haha.:)

[ivanpei]

Stifle in the board is random, don't know what you board it in against. Some Paths would be good. ANT can ignore stifle. You have too many 4 drops. They might clog your hand. 4 walkers, 1 rafiq, 2 NO is alot. I'd trim either NO or some walkers for Cliques. If you up your clique count, you may want to play karakas instead of the plains. Kotr would be a nice 1 off fatty to replace rafiq if you cut him. GSZ> Kotr> Karakas is very important against show and tell decks. Cheers!

[Elbeano]

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Sword to Plowshare

4 Ponder
4 Green Sun Zenith

2 Jace The Mind Sculptor
2 Sylvan Library

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded strand
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad arbor
3 Wasteland


This was the last list I had sleeved up (can't remember the board as it was something I randomly threw together). Its worth noting that this deck wants Maze of Ith badly, though I'm not sure what to trim to fit it in. Horizon Canopy, as I've never really been a big fan since it always turns out to be a Brushland, seems like what I'd end up cutting.

From testing the archetype in general, has anyone noticed if the potential CA provided via Libraries outweighsHorizon Canopy? I'd assume this is a rather foolish question to ask, as they continue to show up in lists whereas Library does not (other than Zoo?)

Any feedback is appreciated

[ivanpei]

Canopy is built into the manabase, so it's easier to include. I won't go above 1 Canopy in this deck though. Sylvan library is the nuts. It is like a free top every turn + the extra draws make alot of difference in control MUs. I guess most decks are focussed on the "catching up game" if they are not as aggressive as Zoo. Decks like New Horizons need to run out action early game to survive vs fast decks. In the late/mid game, Jace > Library. Jace is also blue, which bumps up the Blue count. If library was blue, I'd run it in every damn blue deck.

Decks like Team America and Tempo Thresh love Library because it costs 2. Decks with tight manabases that are designed to be able to cast everything off 2/3 lands benefit most from library. Everything else just plays Jace which is more powerful.

[Eksem]

So, I added Progenitus back into my list, and added Vendilion Cliques but removed Wasteland and cut down on KotR. Good move. I finished 2nd in a 19-man tournament (swiss rounds only) yesterday, going 3-0-1 (and I would have won the draw if I had 1 more round before time ran out, mildly annoying). I drawed with Death and Taxes, beat Zoo, beat Berserk Aggro and beat High Tide. I am starting to feel that there is really no reason not to run NO-Prog, it can dig you out of board stalemates as well as having a huge "Ooops I win"-factor. I only wish that I could fit in Sylvan Library or Jace in my current list somehow, and preferrably more than 1 (or a 1-1 split?).

[Cenarius]

4 Force of Will
...
...
...
...
3 Wasteland


Any feedback is appreciated

Your list looks a lot like my previous list. My version 1.0.
I've come to the conclusion that 4 Knight of the Reliquary is too much. I then started playing 3 and still thought it was too much.

My current creature base looks like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator

You're running 12 deck manipulation like me, so running 9-10 creatures should be ideally. I'm running 10, however, Vendilion Clique behaves not only as a creature, ofcourse.

@ Ivanpei

Nor Tempo Threshold nor Team America plays Sylvan Library.
You're indeed right about the 1 Canopy, I'm definitely going to cutting one (playing 2). Four mana is still a lot to get for NO or Jace, so you can't afford yourself to crack your land in order to draw a card.

[ivanpei]

The Team America build that won the previous SCG open runs library. I tested it, and it was really good in that deck so I upped the library number. As for Tempo Threshold, you are right, normal builds don't run it, but I do. It's an awesome card. This deck is really good. I consistently make Fatty drops T2, T3 and T4 consecutively. Openings like T2 Goyf, T3 Warmonk, T4 Kotr/ Clique are ridiculous. I love this deck.

[Final Fortune]

It sounds like you're converging your lists with my list, because I've been more or less certain the combination of Zenither Order, Vendilion Clique and Natural Order are the cornerstones of this deck. You basically use your mana dorks to accelerate into Vendilion Clique protected Natural Orders and destroy the opponent, because while he's mana taxing your spells and playing Knight of the Reliquary, you're playing too much acceleration for mana taxing to be effective and you're trumping his Knight of the Reliquary with the biggest, evasive, protected threat in the game or just "out Goyfing him" or beating him over the head with exalted + Clique or god forbid Jitte.

You want at least 3 Clique, and I don't think any one playing 4 Clique is remotely crazy because the card is just so insanely important vs. combo and control. And regarding combo, the first game isn't great, but post-board the match up gets a lot easier because you can play an Enlightened Tutor -> 2cc anti-combo card and GSZ -> Gaddock Teeg package and just lock them down completely.

The 3cc creatures like Knight of the Reliquary or Rhox Warmonk are just a waste of time IMO, those cards really suck when they cost 4cc with GSZ and the only non Dryad Arbor or Tarmogoyf target I bother with is just a Trygon Predator or Qasali Pridemage MD (a SB Xantid Swarm rapes Merfolk pretty hard btw). Just the synerngy between G -> Lanowar Elf and 1GG Tarmogoyfs makes GSZ pretty awesome, you really don't need to get terribly creative with tool box crap because those extra targets are just conditional garbage or expensive, sub-par threats.

Jace is also sub-par IMO, we already destroy the BANT mirror matches and you desperately need NO vs. aggro. About everything you'd need Jace for you can get the same mileage out of Jitte and it's way more useful vs aggro trash decks anyway.

[Mandalore]

Hi to everyone, I normally only read this forum but this time I have to write something :tongue:
Yesterday I went 5th in a very big tournament in Italy (214 people) with the list ivanpei inspired me:

4 misty rainforest
2 windswept heath
1 flooded strand
4 tropical island
2 tundra
1 savannah
1 island
1 forest
1 wasteland
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
3 rhox war monk
3 vendilion clique
1 kotr
1 qasali
1 progenitus

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords
4 green sun's zenith
3 daze
3 natural order
2 ponder

SB was
3 meddling mage
3 spell pierce
3 path to exile
2 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
1 gaddock teeg
1 terastodon

With a friend of mine the day before the tournament we agreed that devolving slots to graveyard hate was a waste of time and precious slots, against dredge players even with relic/tormod is difficult to win with an average/good start for them, so we cut the SB grave hate package entirely, squeezing in some extra meddlings and needles fearing a huge amount of sneak&show/naturalshow and vial decks. After the tournament this choice paid a lot, because as we predicted there were very very few grave-based decks, not a surprise with a 8 rounds tournament, where dredge (the major problem) could easily loose 1-2 rounds only for bad/slow starting hand, so It wasn't a very realiable deck imho to play in such a big event, the massive presence of GWx decks (reliquary ftw) was a further "incentive" to avoid playing it.
As I promise here is a short report, I apologize first because my memory is fading and I came back home at 5am tonight from the event :tongue:.

Round 1 - GW maverick or something similar with vials.
I kept a good hand with noble, rhox and a sword perhaps, but my countermagic was light and he could easily drop fatties unbothered, I kept the board with a couple of tarmogoyfs but he has a blasted serra avenger which blew up my plans and beat me to death with some exalted guys.
SB: -4 fow -3 daze (not sure) +3 path +2 grip +2 needles
Second game we were both screwed but I manage with cantrips to unlock my board position and drop a reliquary which took the game alone.
Game three he mulled down to 5 or 6 with one-land hand and double vial, I obviously waste his land and play needle on vial, with this face ->:cry: he scooped after a few goyf swings.
1-0-0

Round 2 - Zenith Zoo
He opened up with taiga->nacatl and I followed with tropical-hierarch which he bolted, he managed to sneak a kird ape on the board and beat me to 12-13 but I found rhox war monk followed by a zenith for a goyf, I was able to stall the board then, until the 10/10 brought me to victory.
SB: -4 fow -3 daze +3 path +3 pierce +1 grip
The second game I sent some of his guys farming or to exile and manage to drop the 10/10 fatty on turn 4, a 6/6 reliquary the next turn sealed the game.
2-0-0

Round 3 - BGW Rock (without zenith)
Honestly I didn't remember anything of this game except that I won on a topdecked natural order after he killed every single creature of mine except a lonely hierarch which immolated herself for the greater good as soon as I found a NO.
The second game I won with a 9/9 or more reliquary after I gripped his top (he was screwed).
3-0-0

Round 4 - Spiral Tide (without candelabras)
The first game I kept a beautiful hand for an aggro matchup, at his 4th turn he combo'd me out with me having some swords and a goyf in hand...nice!
SB: -4 plows -3 order +3 pierce +3 meddling +1 gaddock
The second game he forced three time (2 vendilion 1 meddling) raping his own hand and slowing himself down. Two angry goyfs punished him in the end.
The third game he was able to cast a time spiral with me having no counters in hand, in that moment I said "mmh, ok now you draw 6 lands and a fow", he drew 6 lands and a cantrip, he cantripped, found a fow and a land, put them on bottom library and finally draw a force! He sadly scooped with lethal damage on table the next turn, I show my hand consisting of 4 lands 1 fow 1 rhox and gaddock. Wheew before or later had to happen with spiral :tongue:
4-0-0

Round 5 - Reanimator piloted by a spanish pro guy
I kept an honest hand going first, he managed to put Iona in the grave with a careful study but at his turn 3 draw step end I flashed a vendilion which he dazed, I fowwed back and saw double fows and lands, I took no cards and the next turn I played a reliquary which was obviously forced pitching fow as I hoped, When he was down to 8 his reanimates were unplayable and so were the exhumes with me having reliquary ready to fetch karakas in the grave, he suddenly died beaten by a tarmo and vendlion.
SB: -4 plowshares (I only saw shrouded creatures and Iona, but this was clearly a mistake) -1 qasali -3 rwm +3 pierce +3 meddling +2 pithing (for imp)
Nothing to say in G2 he outcountered me and I died beaten by a sphinx. I realized my BIG mistake and therefore sided in 3 path to exile (I didn't want to enable multiple reanimates).
The third game I allowed my opponent to discard and exhume an archon which I prompty sent to exile (with fow backup in hand), then I managed to set the karakas+vendilion combo which raped his hand until he finally fowwed her, I decided to keep my counters for something else and proceeded to beat him with a goyf and reliquary, when he was at 5 life he hardcasted a sundering titan making reliquary something like 11/11 or similar, the next turn however he died because tarmogoyf was 5/6, obviously this move was made only to say "I hardcasted a sundering titan with reanimator", he clearly knew that he'd have died the next turn.
5-0-0

Round 6 - Dark Horizon
I kept this opening hand: 1 fow 1 rwm 2 plowshares 1 hierarch 1 land 1 qasali, I NEVER reached the third mana and after a few plowshares I died by the hands of a reliquary which, amongst other things, wasted me to death.
SB: -4 fow -3 daze -1 rhox +3 path +2 grip +3 pierce
I mulled down to 5 on the play without seeing any blasted land and lost a few wasteland after.
5-0-1

Round 7 - Monoblack all-removals
This was easy, he played kozilek inquisition on his first turn discarding a goyf, I played hierarch followed by a topdecked goyf the next turn, he wasn't able to discard more cards and after a few removals I easily win with natural order pitching dryad arbor.
SB: -4 fow -3 daze -2 rhox +3 path +3 meddling +3 pierce
He raped my hand with tourach and seize and killed every single beast of mine, but he didn't find a beast to kill me, I was able to assemble the karakas vendilion combo which constantly keeped his hand clean of threats until he used three cards to take her down (the first time he didn't see the karakas), 3x1, not bad, so I slowly beat him with a survived rhox followed by a reliquary which promptly wasted his mishra's factory and brought him to death.
6-0-1

Round 8 - WG Mangara-zenith piloted by an Italian proplayer
The first game I wasn't able to do anything and he simply annihilated me with a sword of f/i equipped(topdecked), double exalted, aven mindcensor.
SB: -4 fow -3 daze +3 path +2 grip +2 needle
The second game a quick order allowed by his low mana denial ended the game.
The third game I tried my best in order to play NO as soon as I could, so I plow a mangara, traded a vendilion in combat phase with mindcensor (which I was able to bypass finding a tropical in the first 4 cards) and then proceeded to win with order, I might have not played this game so well, but I used the right cards in the right moment and the victory was mine.
7-0-1

I ended up 2nd in swiss with 21 points, for the first time in my magic career in such a big tournament, I was very happy but my joy ended as soon as I knew that my opponent would have been Fabian Moyschewitz with canadian.
There's not much to say about these two games, in the first I did not see a single fat creature and he killed me with double mongoose, in the second I was manascrewed (without stifle or wasteland) and he topdecked every single card he needed (4 bolts ftw) to annihilate me, after this game he told me that with his topdeck I could never have won the game.
After this tournament you might ask why I played blue if I sided out almost every match the forces, well the answer is simple: vendilion, meddling, and I personally don't want to loose to random combo as belcher or show and tell decks.

However very special props to ivanpei which posted this awesome list.
Forgive my barbarian english and thanks again, bye!

[ivanpei]

Congrats @ Mandalore! I'm very glad you found the list useful! I can see that the singleton Wasteland has been very useful for you. I might consider including that in my own list. Other than that, our MDs are 100% the same. Your report was very entertaining and pretty detailed at the right things (ie, plays that won or loss the game). What was the singleton Terastodon for? Enchantress? BTW, I find it funny that you boarded in your spell pierces against zoo. Obviously since he was playing Zenith, that's a good call, but I'm wondering about the usefulness of that in general. If on the play, I'd rather have Dazes in. On the draw, Pierce is the right call. Cheers and congratulations again!

PS, I'm glad people are playing Clique- Karakas. It's such an awesome combo. Karakas is likely one of the best cards in legacy right now.

[deezy]

Green Sun's Zenith is the latest bomb spoiled in Mirrodin besieged and everybody's buzzing about it. I'm starting this thread to discuss the obvious synergy between: Green Sun's Zenith, Dryad Arbor, Natural Order.

The two mid-range decks that are known to utilize Natural order properly are Bant aggro and The Rock. Here are my two decklists incorporating the Zenith to start off:

Zenith Order Bant

2 Noble Heirarch
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillon Clique (Or Rhox Warmonk)

1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator (Or the 3rd Warmonk)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Spell pierce
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tropical
1 Tundra
1 Savanna

Zenith Order Rock

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vexing Shusher (Or Gaddock Teeq)

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Wasteland
1 Dryad arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savanna
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

So how does Zenith Change the game? First of all, these decks are mid-range, hence they are not incredibly fast, nor pack too much gas for the late game. Mid-range decks pack just enough of everything. Zenith is the ultimate mid-range card because it:

A) Accelerates: For 1 Mana you can search out a Dryad Arbor. This literally functions as a Llawonar Elf. You now can run up to 8 mana dudes without the risk of drawing too many late game as the Zenith is also an awesome topdeck.
B) Tarmogoyf 5-8: Ever wished you can play 8 Tarmogoyfs? Well now you can, for 1 colourless mana more.
C) Disenchant effect tutor: Hate playing too many disenchant effects that are sometimes too narrow? Or hate playing too little and getting blown out by equipment and counterbalance? This allows you to play a high number of disenchant effects without the risk of being flooded by them.
D) Tutorable Regrowth on a stick: Late game slugfest? Tutoring for an Eternal Witness to regrowth a Force Of Will, Swords To Plowshares to maintain control or a Natural Order to just "win the game".
F) Tutorable "hosers": Limited sideboard space? Just run 1 of each: Gaddock Teeq, Xantid Swarm, Vexing shusher. You can hate on Combo and play around Counterbalance + Counterspells by boarding in the relevant hate cards.
E) Ever increasing threat count: Green Sun's Zenith shuffles back into the library, so your chances or redrawing the Zenith increases as you drag the game out. Fetchlands decreases your chances of drawing land late in the game while the Zenith increases your chance of drawing threats/gas late in the game.

In summary, Green Sun'z Zenith strikes me as a 1 mana Eladamri's Call which dodges Counterbalance AND can also function as a Llawonar elf. Does that sound broken? It sure does! Throw these amazing effects into existing Tier 1 decks and you can really have something extremely dominant. Brainstorming and thoughts appreciated, especially regarding possible tutor targets.


My favorite part of the lists is the basic lands and the mana base....NICE!!!!

[hyc8028]

Zenith-Order is here to stay. 2nd place in open today.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37133

[ivanpei]

Zenith-Order is here to stay. 2nd place in open today.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37133

This list makes me scratch my head. The list is almost the same but has some interesting inclusions. Fauna shaman? Scryb ranger? Only 2 Goyfs? 4 NO? IMO, this is more focused on powering out the combo. Scryb + mana bear is like + 2 mana as you get to bounce a land.

Any way if we have more good results, I'll update the OP with a new primer. Good luck everybody!

[wizard_of_gore]

This list makes me scratch my head. The list is almost the same but has some interesting inclusions. Fauna shaman? Scryb ranger? Only 2 Goyfs? 4 NO? IMO, this is more focused on powering out the combo. Scryb + mana bear is like + 2 mana as you get to bounce a land.

Any way if we have more good results, I'll update the OP with a new primer. Good luck everybody!

Except bant, it would be good to see GW/GWB Rock zenith primer too (it's appeared in some top 8) :wink:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5722&iddeck=41427
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5718&iddeck=41395
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5685&iddeck=41139
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5673&iddeck=41038

[Mandalore]

Congrats @ Mandalore! I'm very glad you found the list useful! I can see that the singleton Wasteland has been very useful for you. I might consider including that in my own list. Other than that, our MDs are 100% the same. Your report was very entertaining and pretty detailed at the right things (ie, plays that won or loss the game). What was the singleton Terastodon for? Enchantress? BTW, I find it funny that you boarded in your spell pierces against zoo. Obviously since he was playing Zenith, that's a good call, but I'm wondering about the usefulness of that in general. If on the play, I'd rather have Dazes in. On the draw, Pierce is the right call. Cheers and congratulations again!

PS, I'm glad people are playing Clique- Karakas. It's such an awesome combo. Karakas is likely one of the best cards in legacy right now.

Thanks!
Yes the single wasteland saved my ass a couple of time and proved to be very useful, the fact is that not playing it with virtually 5 knights in the deck was a crime from my point of view, and I didn't want to loose to some absurd land like glacial chasm, maze of ith or so on.
The single terastodon is a mental deviation of mine, I'm obsessed with enchantress which I found 8 times in 5 tournaments, obviously was a slot wasted but the idea of NOing into it and then beat the opponent to death with some vendilion or another NO attracts me a lot, and kicks stackers' asses too.

Boarding pierces vs zoo over dazes was mandatory I think, because playing daze on the draw vs a deck full of 1-2 manas drops is a death sentence, when you succesfully daze something they gain an extra turn of advantage against you, normally this isn't so bad, but with the zoo ability to play 2 dudes a turn with 3 mana is something you always want to avoid if possible, and pierce with zenith zoo at least prevent them from playing it in the first turns or can protect your beasts against bolts and paths long enough to stall the board (if they have 3+ mana open I assume they didn't play any beast that turn, which is good). Obviously if I was on the play I'd never have boarded out dazes, but that was not the case.
Thanks again for the idea however!

As for the Vendilion karakas combo, IT JUST ROCKS. winning vs reanimator without any graveyard hate or casting other dudes was priceless, nothing more to say.

[Philipp2293]

Not sure if it belongs here or in the Bant Aggro thread, but has anybody Nick Spagnolo's list from the last SCG Open?

[ivanpei]

OMG I'm reading the tourney reports on AJ Sacher's list. I fully understand his deck now and why his build looks so weird. It's like a new age survival deck with a billion tips and tricks.

This illustrates the gayness of Fauna-Scryb Ranger-Dryad arbor combo:

"He decided to attack with his entire team, even the Dryad Arbor. Vial dumped Lord of Atlantis into play, but AJ merely shrugged. The Lord blocked Dryad Arbor and the Adept blocked Fauna Shaman—AJ decided to untap Fauna Shaman by bouncing Dryad Arbor with Scryb Ranger, saving the land and giving him an activation before it died in combat. Chris used Wasteland to destroy Savannah now, and AJ discarded the Arbor to search up a Noble Hierarch. "

Link: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21360_Quarterfinals_AJ_Sacher_vs_Chris_Williams.html

I'm not sure if this is cute or game winning. I mean why GSZ for fauna, then Scryb Ranger when you can just go crazy with Tarmogoyfs? Scryb is obscene against Merfolk and anything with Clique (flash 1/1 pro blue is the balls) as well as things with wastelands, but why not just go to town with goyfs? Thoughts?

[Deady]

I haven't been able to playtest Sacher's list, but 1 Scryb Ranger, 1 Fauna Shaman, a 2nth Arbor and a 4th NO doesn't sound right to me. Instead of focusing too much on powering out the combo, you'd always want to lay down fast threats like Goyf, combined with GSZ...that's like the best part of the whole deck (NEXT to the option to have Proggy on the field with NO). However, Shaman is interesting in some ways. Am I the only one that thinks about it this way? Untill further testing and tournament results prove the opposite, my opinion will be the same as it is now. I can't think of any more bad mulligan situations either.

@Ivanpei

Have you tested Meddling Mage in the SB?

[Cenarius]

Has anyone tested the Tribal matchups already? If so, what are your findings?
Furthermore, I'm thinking about creating an Enlightened Tutor sideboard (especially for Moat) in order to deal with those matchups and other matchups.

[ivanpei]

@ Deady, ATM, its either Rods of Mages for me. Null Rods for MUD, Combo, Thopther, Counterbalance etc. Mages are also good against combo, especially High Tide- Spiral decks. Not all versions play Candelabra and they are very likely to side out candles VS us because they expect needles/ rods grips to come in against them. They can't play around a Mage on High Tide however. Mage is also very good vs the 1 million show and tell variants out there. Depending on your meta, I'd play Mage or Rods.

@ Cenarious, Tribal has been easy for me as I play the Noble - NO versions with basic lands. @ the E. Tutor board, I think it's not bad but I've found Moat crappy against tribal. 4cc (also double white) is alot of mana and it's hard to get it to stick vs wastelands, ports, dazes etc. I prefer propaganda as my answer to Tribal. It's only 1 blue and it's 3cc which is much easier to cast. Moat also stops your Giants from bashing (including the mighty hydra). If you have propaganda on the table, they can bash with 2 dudes max and those dudes will crash into wall of Tarmogoyf/RWM/KOTR. You can then swing back with whatever massive dudes you have. + Propaganda is blue and pitches if you draw extra copies. Propaganda also stacks. I like Propaganda much more than Dueling grounds which isn't blue and harder to cast.

[_erbs_]

hello,
i know GsZ is good but how does GsZ order differ from the old NO bant. the old NO bant had more creatures compared to this list and enough countermagic to support the combo.

I know GsZ can get a turn 1 arbor making the combo much faster by 1 turn compared to the old NO bant builds. but isn't running 4 too much ???

Old generic NO Bant build:


Creatures [17]
4 Noble Heirarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
3 rhox warmonk
2 vendilion clique

Spells [25]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 spell pierce
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 sdt / ponder / spell pierce
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

LANDS [18]
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 flooded strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor / (trops or tundra)

[ivanpei]

@ Erbs, the answer is flexibility and consistency. For example, in your list, you have 4 Turn 1 Accelerators and you have 7 bigs (4 Tarmo and 3 Rhox). You also have 3 Disenchant effects (3 Pridemages). What GSZ gives you is more of everything. It's like a creature demonic tutor for 1 mana. The GSZ lists have 8 T1 Accelerators, 11 bigs and 5 disenchant effects. The flexibility it provides is amazing. When you are playing against countertop, your GSZs are + 4 Pridemage. Against aggro, it's + 4 Tarmo. Against Combo, it can be + 4 Gaddock Teeq. Against control, + 4 KOTR. Catch my drift?

Being able to accelerate out a NO on Turn 3 consistently is just the icing on the cake, its a nice to have, but the main reason why GSZ is so powerful is the above.

[_erbs_]

@ Erbs, the answer is flexibility and consistency. For example, in your list, you have 4 Turn 1 Accelerators and you have 7 bigs (4 Tarmo and 3 Rhox). You also have 3 Disenchant effects (3 Pridemages). What GSZ gives you is more of everything. It's like a creature demonic tutor for 1 mana. The GSZ lists have 8 T1 Accelerators, 11 bigs and 5 disenchant effects. The flexibility it provides is amazing. When you are playing against countertop, your GSZs are + 4 Pridemage. Against aggro, it's + 4 Tarmo. Against Combo, it can be + 4 Gaddock Teeq. Against control, + 4 KOTR. Catch my drift?

Being able to accelerate out a NO on Turn 3 consistently is just the icing on the cake, its a nice to have, but the main reason why GSZ is so powerful is the above.

Yeah i know that it doubles the effect of the creatures but look at it this way:
- the current creature count is 11 compared to the generic 17, drawing 2 GsZ in your hand means you have 2 creature once you have established enough mana. thats why i feel 3-4 noble 1 arbor is a must for GsZ users. correct ? yes.. throughout the game creatures will be killed via combat, removals, countered, etc. when you don't have enough creatures to tutor out whats next ??

I know GsZ is a strong card but i feel that GsZ + NO combo must have a decent creature count to be effective. but pushing the creature count means downsizing your counter magic for it then making the combo hard to pull off against counter or tempo decks.

I know the NO combo is a 2 turn clock that is game changing i've been playing NO bant and CB NoBant for a long time and had success with it i know how powerful it is. but after awhile i switched to elspeth over the NO combo as it had a consistent result over NO in the sense in top deck mode or both having lots of creatures in play elspeth could also provide evasion almost same as NO combo or a clock in tokens as compared to NO which it needs creature to be useful.

NO will be hard to use against lets say zoo or decks which packs tons of removal the only out is no + fetching arbor.

I was thinking why not say combine painter servant with GsZ so that you'll have a somewhat toolbox deck of some sort.

[ivanpei]

I find it highly unlikely that you will run out of creatures to tutor out. If you are talking about the sigleton Qasali, then yes you can't go and fetch the 2nd one. Regarding total dudes, I'm not sure what others run but I play 1 Arbor, 4 Goyfs, 4 Noble, 3 Warmonk, 1 Kotr, 1 Qasali as my green dudes. I have never run out of dudes to fetch with GSZ in this deck (other than the 2nd Arbor and 2nd Pridemage). Being able to fetch what you need exactly when you need it >>> drawing the wrong card for the wrong time.

As for counter lightness, Spell pierce does not help push through Natural Order. By the time you get to 5 mana to protect your Natural Order, you would most likely be dead or your opponent can afford to pay for spell pierce. That's why I play 3 Cliques to help push through NO. And your claim about tempo decks is also confusing. Isn't + 4 mana sources (GSZ) better against tempo decks?

Along with Elspeth VS NO. Both are strong cards. Elspeth is overall slightly less powerful compared to NO. Elspeth can be Needled, Revokered, Vindicated, killed by dudes etc etc. For elspeth to be at Max effectiveness, you need to have a big in play already to abuse. Flying KOTR/ Goyfs/ Warmonks are as game winning as NO I agree. However, if you have a big dude in play, you are basically not in a bad position and you are using Elspeth to tip the game in your favour. If you have a manabear in play and no bigs, Elpeth is usually on permanent token making-chumping duty. NO on the other hand makes a fat Hydra that says GG in 2 turns. Elspeth is basically better in decks that want to beat control as you don't get 2 for 1ed if NO is countered/killled.

As for NO being bad against zoo. I'm confused by this. Elspeth is not great against zoo either. It's also as easy to fry a token with Grim Lavamancer/Burn and swing a Goyf into Elspeth, killing her. If I'm playing NO and the opponent is frying all my accelerators, I won't be worried either because my topdecked cards that are usually dead (fetchland into arbor/Noble) have to be fried as they are a threat (that is sometimes imaginery). Seems good. NO is not great against zoo too, IMO both are comparably crap against Zoo. But what makes GSZ better is that GSZ increases your threat count from 7 bigs to 11 bigs. This is extremely relevant. Having 7 Rhox Warmonks is pretty good against Aggro I hear.

As For painter-GSZ. Interesting and could work, but seems pretty slow. I suspect you'll include some Grindstones and a singleton Trinket mage to search for with GSZ. GSZ for Fauna Shaman into Painter's Servant Seems interesting as well. Idea seems really fun.

[jeanbathez]

Has anyone tested the Tribal matchups already? If so, what are your findings?
Furthermore, I'm thinking about creating an Enlightened Tutor sideboard (especially for Moat) in order to deal with those matchups and other matchups.

I played the ET SB in my bant aggro list, and loved it it won me so many matches, and i think it can be included, but in cost of options for GSZ..
@Moat : i prefer Dueling Grounds, 1 mana less and for me it was very good most of the time.

[Koby]

Had Doran the Seige-Tower been considered in this deck before?

He fits in very nicely with RWM, Goyf, and Hierarch. As far as a beater, he's pretty good!

[rooneg]

Had Doran the Seige-Tower been considered in this deck before?

He fits in very nicely with RWM, Goyf, and Hierarch. As far as a beater, he's pretty good!

Maybe it's just me, but I'm having trouble seeing Doran as worth it (and I love me some Doran). He's a 3 mana mostly vanilla beater, and you're either adding black to cast him normally (so you either drop blue, which is half the point of the deck, or you go 4 colors) or you're really just zenithing him in so he's really 4 mana. For three mana in legacy I'd really prefer my beater to do something else in addition to cracking skulls. Plus, we already have a 3 mana beater that does something else, KoTR. Since KoTR is already likely around 5/5 when she hits the table, if not bigger, I'm not seeing the compelling advantage to playing Doran.

[ivanpei]

Rooneg is correct. We already have kotr which is as big if not bigger and can do fancy tricks like looking for karakas/wasteland/horizon canopy. If you are playing a super aggro dark bant, doran is a good kotr 5-8. Otherwise, kotr is better.

[rooneg]

Some more from AJ Sacher about his version of this deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21425_Deck_Tech_NO_Bant_with_AJ_Sacher.html

Looks like the biggest difference from what people here have settled on is he plays more Ponders, an extra Natural Order and different silver bullet creatures. Personally, I like the KoTR/Wasteland/Karakas package combined with the trio of Cliques, but I've gotta admit that the Scryb Ranger is interesting. I'm totally not sold on Fauna Shaman though.

[_erbs_]

hello,
i know this might be off topic but i was thinking what do you think about this build for no-zenith.

@all
what do you think about NO-combo vs Equip package. almost have the same amount of time in setting up, NO maybe abit faster but has more risk against counter magic decks as it only needs 4 mana compared to equips much more or even 2-3 turns before it could swing but is much safer once stoneforge is vialed in.

Spells [15]
4 aether vial
4 natural order or -1
4 swords to plowshares
2 green sun zenith or +1
1 umezawa's jitte

creatures [24]
1 dryad arbor
4 noble hiearch
3 mother of runes
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
3 kotr
2 fauna shaman
1 progen
2 scryb ranger

lands [21]
1 gaeas cradle
1 karakas
4 wasteland
4 windswpt heath
1 misty rainforest
2 horizon canopy
3 forest
1 plains
4 savannah

SB [15]
2 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist
2 o-ring
2-3 dauntless escort
2 vexing susher ??
1 bojuka bog
1 tormods crypt
??

[ivanpei]

Your deck looks like this:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37277

This deck is like the ultimate mid range slugfest king. But it is terribly weak to combo. Having said that though, you don't need the 2nd Fauna, the 2nd Scryb and the 4th Pridemage. I'd trim those for more GSZ's. Must play 4 GSZ and you need a dryad arbor in there somewhere. You don't really need vial, 4 Noble and 4 GSZ is plenty of acceleration. You might also want a singleton Terastodon to NO for. You can actually hard cast Terastodon off a Cradle + lots of mana dudes.

Cheers!

[hyc8028]

I think GSZ is so strong that it is a mistake not to play them. I put this deck together for fun today and played couple hours. Turn 1 GSZ into dryad arbor is so fun! I basically ran my list on my previous post except -1 warmonk, -1 trygon, +1 terravore, +1 ponder. There are few games when I drew the fat hydra, but overall the deck ran very smooth. I have a GPT next week and I haven't decide on what to play yet. This deck is definitely under my consideration. NO + GSZ = Bread + Butter lol.

[ivanpei]

I think GSZ is so strong that it is a mistake not to play them. I put this deck together for fun today and played couple hours. Turn 1 GSZ into dryad arbor is so fun! I basically ran my list on my previous post except -1 warmonk, -1 trygon, +1 terravore, +1 ponder. There are few games when I drew the fat hydra, but overall the deck ran very smooth. I have a GPT next week and I haven't decide on what to play yet. This deck is definitely under my consideration. NO + GSZ = Bread + Butter lol.

That's why I love Clique, it recycles your Proggy for a fresh card in addition to being such a kickass creature. I agree though, GSZ + NO + Dryad Arbor is just too Synergistic not to run, no matter UGW, WG or BGW.

[_erbs_]

Your deck looks like this:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37277

This deck is like the ultimate mid range slugfest king. But it is terribly weak to combo. Having said that though, you don't need the 2nd Fauna, the 2nd Scryb and the 4th Pridemage. I'd trim those for more GSZ's. Must play 4 GSZ and you need a dryad arbor in there somewhere. You don't really need vial, 4 Noble and 4 GSZ is plenty of acceleration. You might also want a singleton Terastodon to NO for. You can actually hard cast Terastodon off a Cradle + lots of mana dudes.

Cheers!

vial provides lots of tricks and is good against blue decks. i know gsz is good but i was thinking maybe i'd go for equip package in my SB thats why i opted to play vials. That's why i asked which is better the NO combo or the equip package

[ivanpei]

I don't think one is better than the other. I'd rather answer like this, they are all bombs. In decks, most people choose between Jace+ Elspeth, Natural Order or Stoneforge +Equipments. IMO, Jace + Elspeth = very good against control, so-so vs aggro. Natural Order= Good Against Aggro, so-so against Control. Stoneforge + Equipment= Very Good against Aggro, bad against control (every dude you equip will get fried, hence the big tempo lost). It's your call, but in an open field, I prefer NO anyday as it just randomly wins.

[_erbs_]

I don't think one is better than the other. I'd rather answer like this, they are all bombs. In decks, most people choose between Jace+ Elspeth, Natural Order or Stoneforge +Equipments. IMO, Jace + Elspeth = very good against control, so-so vs aggro. Natural Order= Good Against Aggro, so-so against Control. Stoneforge + Equipment= Very Good against Aggro, bad against control (every dude you equip will get fried, hence the big tempo lost). It's your call, but in an open field, I prefer NO anyday as it just randomly wins.

Yeah i have the same gut feel thats why i was thinking of maybe main boarding vexing susher or it was part of the SB so that against merfs i could still combo off. having that said maybe i could cut the vials all together...

[ChrisElrod]

Your deck looks like this:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37277

This deck is like the ultimate mid range slugfest king. But it is terribly weak to combo. Having said that though, you don't need the 2nd Fauna, the 2nd Scryb and the 4th Pridemage. I'd trim those for more GSZ's. Must play 4 GSZ and you need a dryad arbor in there somewhere. You don't really need vial, 4 Noble and 4 GSZ is plenty of acceleration. You might also want a singleton Terastodon to NO for. You can actually hard cast Terastodon off a Cradle + lots of mana dudes.

Cheers!

Yes, and I regret dedicating as much of my sideboard to combo as I did. I should also not have run nearly that many enlightened tutors in the board.

That said, I went 6-0 in the swiss, defeating Gerry T. along the way, and then drew into the top 8, getting paired against Gerry T. again. He hymned me turn 2, taking away both my lands, mana screwing me and then quickly gaining an advantage I couldn't recover from. Game 2 I opened a hand that would have been solid had any of the wastelands instead produced green mana, and shipped it back for something a little mediocre. He bob and jaced me out of the game.
I really wish I could have had a better finish to my amazing start, but that said I really liked Gerry T's deck and think it should be given a lot of credit. The bobs and Jaces all need immediate answering or they drown you out in card advantage (and hymn is absolutely insane).
I was also stupid, and should have recognized that the difference in his deck was more than significant enough to justify a different game plan then against Team America.
My normal game plan was to board out natural orders and crush them with knights-natural order was generally a little too difficult to cast.
Without any stifles (and sideboarding out dazes for game 2) I should not have sided out natural orders, as they are then not so hard to cast. Terravore also threatens to beat knight (although bojuka bog makes this threat a little emptier than otherwise postboard), weakening that game plan.
For not truly recognizing this immediately perhaps I deserved to lose the second time-although I still have the feeling of having lost $200 due to the order of the wins and losses.

As for vial (referring to _erbs_'s post): I initially ran 4, but cut them after testing.

A few other notes:
I started with 3 mangara, but they were eventually reduced to 1.

I natural ordered for terastodon more times than I did progenitus.

Gerry T's most interesting play of the day and mine both referred to the same game.

Contrary to the impression of my top 8 profile, I am not a total troll (although I didn't face any caw-blade decks, playing against real decks all day):
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/5848/presidentoftheroyspires.png

[ivanpei]

Great Job man! I love your deck. I've been discussing it over on the other GW thread. After testing with your deck a bit, I realised you just completely dominate the midrange mirror, but have issues vs combo. I cut the NO package and went with 4 Faunas instead. With NO gone, I could now run Vials which make faunas even more insane. I also play the Iona-Retainers Package for the "brokenness" and it is similar to NO is some respects. The advantage of 4 GSZ, 4 Fauna is that I have essentially 9 Gaddock Teeqs MD giving me a good chance of beating storm. Hate bear followed by Iona is pawnage.

In order to absolutely abuse Fauna, I also included a Scryb Ranger (which I found very useful after playtesting with AJ Sacher's bant deck) and the deck went from strong to bonkers.

Here's the other thread on GW Fauna Shaman:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16117-%5BDeck%5D-GW-Survival&p=531029

[ivanpei]

I tested the aj sachet list with 4 NOs. Some observations- NO is really good right now. Merfolk, fast zoo and countertop are down, big zoo, tempo and the rock are up. The sacher list is extremely NO centric but spell pierce is not a very good spell at forcing NO through. This has been explained before and I swapped them for cliques. Fauna can get cut because clique helps pitch Proggy when you draw it. Scrub also gets cut for the 4th goyf because she is not as effective without fauna.

I think more NO and less bigdudes are the right call now (along with more ponders). We cannot out bomb big zoo which has GSZ, Elspeth, sylvan and a full set of kotrs. The same can be said about the rock which has bob, kotr and tops. NO is the best card to have against them. Of course NO is harder to cast against team America but rhox warmonks are not very good against them too. If the meta does not swing back to merfolk and fast zoo, I think the heavy NO versions are the way to go.

[Final Fortune]

I tested the aj sachet list with 4 NOs. Some observations- NO is really good right now. Merfolk, fast zoo and countertop are down, big zoo, tempo and the rock are up. The sacher list is extremely NO centric but spell pierce is not a very good spell at forcing NO through. This has been explained before and I swapped them for cliques. Fauna can get cut because clique helps pitch Proggy when you draw it. Scrub also gets cut for the 4th goyf because she is not as effective without fauna.

I think more NO and less bigdudes are the right call now (along with more ponders). We cannot out bomb big zoo which has GSZ, Elspeth, sylvan and a full set of kotrs. The same can be said about the rock which has bob, kotr and tops. NO is the best card to have against them. Of course NO is harder to cast against team America but rhox warmonks are not very good against them too. If the meta does not swing back to merfolk and fast zoo, I think the heavy NO versions are the way to go.

Which is more or less what I was saying earlier, I think if you're forcing thru' NO as your plan A and your plan B is just Tarmogoyf + Cliques with exalted, you can afford to play a Xantid Swarm or Meddling Mages in the SB and completely destroy Merfolk. Xantid Swarm is just completely unfair vs. any tempo match up.

[Cenarius]

I have a little update.

First my decklist again, writen in abilities for the deck:

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares

10 Fetch, 6 duals (3 Tropical Island, 3 Tundra), 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Dryad Arbor. 18 lands total.

I'm still not sure about my Mainboard.

Spell Pierces are a little bit disappointing, so is Jace, the Mindsculptor (overkill or pitch). The 2nd Sylvan Library is also a bit of a doubt for me. On the other hand, I do like the 12 card deck manipulation strategy. It means that you'll have a pretty occupied game if everything goes normal. Trygon Predator + Qasali Pridemage is probably an overkill.
Vendilion Clique has been good overall, however I wouldn't play more than 2. Spell Snare's are proven to be good aswell, which is actually no surprise for me. The amount of creatures is good aswell.

I'm not sure what direction I want to go with this deck. I could go Tempo Threshold style and add +4 Stifle, +4 Wasteland. I can also go back to my NOpro list posted earlier.
I'm also not sure about my sideboard. I really have no clue what to play there. Maybe we could start a discussion about it soon?
I'm also thinking about adding 1 or 2 Engineered Explosives to the deck. The card is good against Zoo, decent against TES/Tempo Threshold and nearly every other deck in the metagame. The possibility of going 2 for 1 in an Agrocontrol deck is always a blast.

I just need more testresults...

[jeanbathez]

I'm not sure what direction I want to go with this deck. I could go Tempo Threshold style and add +4 Stifle, +4 Wasteland. I can also go back to my NOpro list posted earlier.
I'm also not sure about my sideboard. I really have no clue what to play there. Maybe we could start a discussion about it soon?
I'm also thinking about adding 1 or 2 Engineered Explosives to the deck. The card is good against Zoo, decent against TES/Tempo Threshold and nearly every other deck in the metagame. The possibility of going 2 for 1 in an Agrocontrol deck is always a blast.

I just need more testresults...

Ok Here we go :

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Dueling Grounds
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Path to Exile
2 Vendilion Clique

My main ist similar to Sacher list. Still not sure...
Want to add Llawan, Cephalid Empress and Null Rod

[Cenarius]

So this is the third time I have to write this post..... So therefore I'll keep it short.

In general:
I like versatility, like I mentioned at page 7 or 8.

Suggestion for sideboard:

3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus (better against non-dredge than Tcrypt) (Dredge)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Dredge, Spiral Tide)
1 Propaganda (Blue, Pitchable etc.) (Tribal)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (Tribal)
1 Pithing Needle (Tribal, random decks etc.)
1 Trygon Predator (Staxx, Countertopthers, Countertop, Landstill)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Combo)
3 Spell Pierce/Spell Snare (Depending on Mainboard) (Combo)
#1 open slot, probably 1 Rhox War Monk or 1 Engineered Explosives (if 2 aren't packed in Mainboard already).

The only problem I foresee in this thread, is the amount of different Mainboard or Mainboard strategies that all decks have posted in this thread.

[ivanpei]

Agree, swarms and mages are awesome in the board. There are alot of way to play this deck, IMO the 3 builds are:

Heavy NO (4-off, double arbor)- good against midrange, ok vs combo, ok vs control, ok vs fast aggro.

NO/big dudes hybrid- ok against mid range, ok vs combo, ok vs control, good against fast aggro.

Tempo (with wastes, more kotrs, maybe stifle), bad vs midrange, good vs combo, good vs control, ok vs fast aggro.

These have been my observations.

[jandax]

I have a little update.

First my decklist again, writen in abilities for the deck:

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares

10 Fetch, 6 duals (3 Tropical Island, 3 Tundra), 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Dryad Arbor. 18 lands total.

I'm still not sure about my Mainboard.

Spell Pierces are a little bit disappointing, so is Jace, the Mindsculptor (overkill or pitch). The 2nd Sylvan Library is also a bit of a doubt for me. On the other hand, I do like the 12 card deck manipulation strategy. It means that you'll have a pretty occupied game if everything goes normal. Trygon Predator + Qasali Pridemage is probably an overkill.
Vendilion Clique has been good overall, however I wouldn't play more than 2. Spell Snare's are proven to be good aswell, which is actually no surprise for me. The amount of creatures is good aswell.

I'm not sure what direction I want to go with this deck. I could go Tempo Threshold style and add +4 Stifle, +4 Wasteland. I can also go back to my NOpro list posted earlier.
I'm also not sure about my sideboard. I really have no clue what to play there. Maybe we could start a discussion about it soon?
I'm also thinking about adding 1 or 2 Engineered Explosives to the deck. The card is good against Zoo, decent against TES/Tempo Threshold and nearly every other deck in the metagame. The possibility of going 2 for 1 in an Agrocontrol deck is always a blast.

I just need more testresults...

Running 8 FoW is tech...

Would that mean that Stifle could be FoW 5-8 in a tournament environment?

i kid

[Cenarius]

Running 8 FoW is tech...

Would that mean that Stifle could be FoW 5-8 in a tournament environment?

i kid

Sorry for my sloppy deckwriting. Fow #5-#8 aren't in the decklist. I would than play 8 FoW and 64 cards MB.

@Ivanpei.

I have to contradict some of your observations.

The Heavy NO-build have: Good Matchups against Agro and Mid-Ranged (Non-Blue), have Bad matchups against Combo & Control and are OK against Mid-Ranged (With Blue).
I consider every Noble Hierarch list to be negative or slightly negative against Combo, depending on their Sideboard.

I'm not sure about the other matchups/decks since I haven't played them.

I believe the build I created has OK/Good matchups against every archetype (well mb not dredge), of that I'm 100% sure. Though there are some changes coming soon..

[ivanpei]

I was posting somewhat of a subjective evaluation. There is no way to be sure since decklists keep changing and hybrids are common. It's ok if you don't agree, was just posting a yardstick to compare the builds. :)

[Eksem]

I have a new problem with this deck, that went from funny to problematic yesterday. It's called... the mirror.

This has been my "base" list for a couple of weeks now. I have been running it myself and lending it to other players at my local shop. So far (except for once, mentioned earlier in the thread), it has never performed worse than 3-1 in our 15-20 player tournaments (swiss only).

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

3 Natural Order
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

The problem is, as I hinted at above, that this together with the results of similar decks at the SCG-events has made decks like this very popular at my local shop. So popular, in fact, that I played the mirror 2 times yesterday, and so popular that similar lists made up more than 25% of the "field". In short, I need to break the mirror.

The best thing I figured out so far is Sower of Temptation, but everyone else was running that as well, and it's not really backbreaking enough (and can be swingy). No, I need something really clever. Anyone with any good ideas?

[Cenarius]

U'll need Sylvan Library. Period.

[NicefaceLOL]

Hey, been playing Aj's list recently. I've been pretty happy with it for the most part but ran into the problem of running out of threats mostly agaisnt mirror and Team America type decks. I ended up cutting the Rhox War Monk for a Sword of Body and mind, so far it's been great. It's a good trump in the mirror(G1 they have 1 pridemage but that's it.) it is almost impossible for Team America to win after it connects once. It's pretty easy to find in the games you really want it with four Brainstorm and four ponder. Has anyone else ran into the problem and come up with a suitable solution?

[Eksem]

U'll need Sylvan Library. Period.

While I have been trying to fit a Sylvan Library or 2 into my list (cutting, let's say, 1 KotR and maybe 1 island), I am mostly looking for a really backbreaking card which won't hurt my own gameplan. However, more easily finding Jace or NO IS a big part (huge part?) of what the mirror is about, so maybe it could work. Though I think I would have liked a green-hurting Llawan or a one-sided Hibernation or something. Submerge seems ok, but I think I prefer Sower.

[ivanpei]

This deck is one of the most solid, simple decks there is. I'm torn between the "combo" versions (AJ Sacher) and the "standard" versions (3 NO, more dudes). I think I'll go back to playing the standard version because with so many cantrips, you'll find one eventually anyway. The NO plan also sucks balls against merfolk, which is a pretty common MU and Rhox is golden here.

[Force oF will]

Hi guys,first of all i would say sorry for my bad english .
Anyway,I would post a list I built a few week ago and receive some suggestion.In this list you can find a “NO combo” and Kotr with wasteland.I want to play both because i think “NO combo” is too strong to not include in bant and is a combo that can instant change a game.Kotr is actually the strongest creature in legacy in my opinion.This is the list I play usually:

4 Noble Hiearch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Progenitus
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plawshares
3 Green’s Sun Zenith
3 Daze
3 Ponder
3 Natural Order
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

SIDE

2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Spell Pierce
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Llawan,Cephalid Empress
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Gaddock Teeg

What do you think?What are the changes I should make in your opinion?I run only 2 Tarmogoyf because usually are a 3/4 creatures without ability.I prefer rhox,even if it’s more mana expensive.
Thank’s.

[Cenarius]

Hi,

I believe this deck shouldn't play less than 4 Tarmogoyfs.

I've found out that 4 Knight of the Reliquary is too much. I would play 2 maximum, even if you want to include Wasteland. About the best creatures in format:Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are better, IMO.

I believe Trygon Predator can be put in the sideboard, but ofcourse this really depends on your metagame.

The same goes for Rhox War Monk (metagame-wise). The creature is good in the tribal matchups, but losses every other creature battle in the mid-ranged matchups. I mean Zoo and The Rock all play Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary's.

I believe this deck should indeed play Natural Order.

[Eksem]

This is the list I play usually:
What do you think?What are the changes I should make in your opinion?

Are there cards missing in your list? I only count to 57. I would assume those are blue cards (Ponder, Spell Pierce?), but even then the blue card count is a bit low I think (19).

A good reason to run Tarmogoyf is for curve reasons. I think about it like this: What I really want to do is to get Progenitus with NO on turn 3, with counterspells left and at least one more creature in play. But sometimes, I don't actually have 3 mana on turn 2. Or sometimes, I need to dig with Brainstorm or Ponder, but still need to play a defense on turn 2. Or perhaps play a threat with Spell Pierce mana up. Or just play around Daze. For those times, there is Tarmogoyf (It is for similar reasons I run Jace in my list, I want to have more powerful 4-mana plays).

For the sideboard, I have done some thinking. Perhaps tribal is not rampant enough in my area, but I have never felt the need for Jitte. My big butt defense usually hold the line untill Progenitus drops. Krosan Grip really doesn't do that much either. Counterbalance is a fantastic matchup already. When it comes to Gaddock Teeg, I have felt that he doesn't stop enough combo variants and has too many bad synergies with my own list. Instead, I have started to look to more multipurpose cards with a bit broader application. Null Rod, for instance, shuts down everything. I mean everything. Vial, SDT, LED, Petal, equips, Candelabra. For more combo resilience I have been wanting to try Arcane Laboratory. Combo decks have slowed down, they have to play around Spell Pierce, Daze and FoW, and this deck makes 3 mana on turn 2 most of the time. Path to Exile, as usual, has terrible synergies with Wasteland. I like Path, however, and usually run 1 (since I don't run Wastelands) in my SB.

[Force oF will]

yes sorry,the cards missings are 3 ponder...

[adamt]

Chris,
Did you test out the Stoneforge package in the deck at all over perhaps Mangara and Mother?
It seems like it would be a perfect fit and help the merfolk matchup a bit..

[Eksem]

So, I went 3-1 again (for a 2nd place finish this time), same maindeck, some sideboard tweaks. And the deck has gained even more popularity at my shop since last week, though I managed to avoid the mirror this time. The other big deck at the store is Team America. Everybody has figured out the power in control magic-variants by now, and everyone is running Sower, Threads or even actual Control Magic! I still want to find a really good sideboard card for the mirror as well as Team America, but haven't managed to figure anything out. Also, with a big tournament coming up this weekend, I assume that a lot of decks will be packing Perish... what would be a good preemptive strike against that card? Counterspells in all honour, but if that card resolves, it's going feel pretty awful.

[ivanpei]

Meddling Mage and counterspells, not much else really against perish. I feel that NO is a must in this deck. I'm not a fan of equipment as we don't run enough dudes to abuse it fully. Without moms/vial getting stoneforge + equipment up and running past removal is pretty slow. The question now is how many NO? I play the 4 NO, 4 ponder version so that NO is plan A and beat down is plan B. I feel that our creatures are too easily outclassed by those Wg/bwg decks and we can't compete without NO, so 4 copies it is.

[Cenarius]

Currently shifting my decklist to see what the deck can do.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order

1 Jace, the Mind sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

4 Windswepth heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Pretty interesting list if you ask me. We have the (for you guys normal) 4 Noble Hierarch, 3 Green Sun's Zenith. Green Sun's Zenith seems little less OP, when playing with Noble Hierarch. Turn 1 Noble Hierarch is ofcourse way better than Green Sun's Zenith, while Green Sun's Zenith is far better when the game has 2+ turns.
We have the 4 Wastelands which tend to be pretty important in nearly every matchup I tested the deck (15+ games against a serie of decks losing only 1 match in total, won a total of 10).
The list is versatile having 1 Jace, the Mindsculptor and 1 Sylvan Library moving your deck manipulation cards from 8 up to 10. I don't think I want to play less than 10 deck manipulation cards in a Bant Agro deck.
The deck relies on Natural Order, it won me several games. Though I would not play more than 2 since the card is pretty bad against the half of the metagame. There will be two copies in my sideboard for The Rock, Zoo, Goblins, random decks with no removal/counters. There will also be a copy of Sylvan Library and Jace, the Mindsculptor in the sideboard to bring in against Control. Sylvan Library is also sideboard material against Tempo Threshold.
I also like the 4 Tarmogoyf, 1 Knight, 1 Rhox War Monk, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 2 Vendilion Clique configuration, as experienced in my previous decklist. U don't want to play too much creatures, in my opinion, when playing Green Sun's Zenith. They look like they're +3 creatures in your decklist, but in fact they behave more like +5 or +6 creatures, if you know what I mean (they shuffle back and games tend to go long anyways).

[Eksem]

I'm actually thinking about running Stoneforge-package in the sideboard, the decks that will run Perish are probably going to be Tribal decks with splashes (or Landstill, but I might just give that matchup up, I don't think it will be too common), so the Stoneforge-package should be useful for multiple reasons. Is that just me trying to be clever? Sometimes it's hard to tell.

[Eksem]

So, I took the regular maindeck that I have posted earlier (but added a Karakas, wish I had done that before) to a 30-man tournament this Sunday, with the Stoneforge-package in the sideboard and ended up 4-1 in swiss but losing in first top 8 match. I beat Dreadstill, Merfolk, The Rock w HexDepths and Green & Taxes, but lost to Boros and UG Vengevine Madness.

[The Duck!!]

So, I took the regular maindeck that I have posted earlier (but added a Karakas, wish I had done that before) to a 30-man tournament this Sunday, with the Stoneforge-package in the sideboard and ended up 4-1 in swiss but losing in first top 8 match. I beat Dreadstill, Merfolk, The Rock w HexDepths and Green & Taxes, but lost to Boros and UG Vengevine Madness.

Can we have a little report on how did you do during the tournament? Like,how did you do against merfolks because as far as I know,merfolk is a bad match-up for us. Thanks.:)

[ivanpei]

I took zenith bant to a small tournament in Singapore (yeah I travelled all the way down). T8ed, but lost in T8 to KNIGHTS, how embarassing. Here's a short run down:

I beat a bunch of blue control (BUG control, Countertop thopthers among them). The key was: Natural Order, especially when protected by clique/Force. Clique is insane, the games are all very similar. Cast clique, strip counter, Force through NO, Win! I played 4 NO and never regretted it. Every single game I won was because of NO. I expected to lose the blue mirror, surprisingly I rape the blue mirror. *shrugs*

I lost to folk. He had really really good draws and his deck was tuned to beat our kind of deck (MD Kira's and Sowers, no Stills). I get raped even after board as Kira + Sower simply destroyed me. This is a very very hard Matchup. I think I need some number of Llawan's in the board. (I had Jittes, Paths and another warmonk but still it wasn't enough). In retrospect I'm not sure if I should have kept NO is. What do you guys think? Since we expect a flood of anti-aggro cards like submerge, sowers and kira coming in, should we keep the NO package in? I'm not sure actually, but I followed convention and boarded my FOW and NO package out for Natures claim, path, jitte and warmonk.

Also lost to Spiral Tide on the way to T8, G1 obviously he blows me out as I can't interact. 2nd game I kick ass with Teeq backed by counters/clique. G3 I get a Teeq but Snap bounces it and he goes off. This matchup is also hard as we don't have that much that can interact with them.

Knights was a deck fart. G1 I resolve NO, GG. G2 I resolve NO and it should have been GG but he casts.... retribution of the meek. What the... !!!!! I lose that one. G3 was a sad case of the deck giving up on me. I draw a stream of STP/Path/Natures Claim/Pridemage but no threats. I get land flooded too and about Turn 10-12 or so, he finally beats me to death with indestructable knights (Knight exemplar). If I had found a single NO at any point in this game, I would have won (I play 4 NO, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm). :(

Anyway, I think this deck can play mental misstep. I will most probably just straight swap missteps for Daze. Misstep is definitely going to be needed to compete with other misstep packing decks.

[Nabbydian]

I took zenith bant to a small tournament in Singapore (yeah I travelled all the way down). T8ed, but lost in T8 to KNIGHTS, how embarassing. Here's a short run down:

Knights was a deck fart. G1 I resolve NO, GG. G2 I resolve NO and it should have been GG but he casts.... retribution of the meek. What the... !!!!! I lose that one. G3 was a sad case of the deck giving up on me. I draw a stream of STP/Path/Natures Claim/Pridemage but no threats. I get land flooded too and about Turn 10-12 or so, he finally beats me to death with indestructable knights (Knight exemplar). If I had found a single NO at any point in this game, I would have won (I play 4 NO, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm). :(

Anyway, I think this deck can play mental misstep. I will most probably just straight swap missteps for Daze. Misstep is definitely going to be needed to compete with other misstep packing decks.

Hi Ivan! thanks for coming down to Singapore for the Angus's tournament. Usually we have more players around so that weekend we didnt had a particulary good turnout.

anyway yeah, i was the guy with the knights deck. game 1 was practically game over since i have no outs against a resolved Progenitus. Second game Ivan NO off a gofy for Progentius and he muz have thought it was GG again until i show him my retribution of the meek!

third game he had way too much removal to the point he had swords/paths my creatures at least 6 times, and he was right. anytime he topdecked a NO i'll goner as i didnt have any retribution in my hand and i will be reduced to a one turn clock, anyway to be honest i got lucky as Ivan failed to get any threats, all the while during the third game my heart was in my mouth LOL

[ivanpei]

Haha, thanks for having me! You played well and capitalized on my weakness. Well done. All the best and good luck kicking more ass with Knights!

[ChrisElrod]

Great Job man! I love your deck.

Thanks, and sorry for the slow reply.

I have been pretty bumbed about magic, so I didn't feel like discussing it much (get enough from friends irl). Almost all of my time playing magic it has been with survival decks, as these were the only decks I really found fun and enjoyed.
After it was banned I felt like quitting magic (although I sold the survivals and retainers beforehand to cut losses, as I figured wizards would ax it)-I don't really find it overly fun to play.
However the starcity 5k coverage seemed to suggest that even many of the players who top8 don't have any friggin' idea what they're doing. You can find many examples if you look through these starcity tournaments, though the best is of course the goblin player who didn't side in mindbreak trap against belcher (and won the match anyway) and then while tapped out cast tripple pyrokinesis into a dazy and spellpierce to kill nothing but a LoA and two silvergill adepts (neither of which are really worth a card). He later won.
I have limited mobility (being essentially limmited to Texas), and am living in Dallas. Seeing so many people top8 with such shoddy play made me determined that I could top8 the locasl starcity as well (and feel that I should), and confident I would at least top32 for money.
I playtested furiously with several people, and built a large gauntlet of decks to test with and against (giving our sharpies a lot of use).
The product of my efforts: I was undefeated at the legacy challenge the day before, and then again in the swiss of the open itself, losing only a single match all weekend-the one match that actually counted for something.
Was a cool experience, but the reward ($200) was definitely not worth the time I had spent.
As I said I was already bummed about magic, and played with the single minded purpose of simply winning, because that was the only thing I had cared about.
I'm sure you can imagine what I then fealt like in the end-in the end it all felt like a waste.

Two last points before I move on however:
1) I was exited by mental misstep (seems like it should be very good in this deck), enough so to look back. That, and I'm alone at a university when most everyone I know went home for Easter weekend.
2) Thanks about the deck-it is in large part a collection of the cards I liked using most of all, and thus had a fair amount of experience with already. Glad other people like most of my favorite cards, and I know you were active in the survival threads as well :).


I've been discussing it over on the other GW thread. After testing with your deck a bit, I realised you just completely dominate the midrange mirror, but have issues vs combo. I cut the NO package and went with 4 Faunas instead. With NO gone, I could now run Vials which make faunas even more insane. I also play the Iona-Retainers Package for the "brokenness" and it is similar to NO is some respects. The advantage of 4 GSZ, 4 Fauna is that I have essentially 9 Gaddock Teeqs MD giving me a good chance of beating storm. Hate bear followed by Iona is pawnage.

If I start testing again (such as if I decide to go to the Starcity in Houston) I would definitely be interested in testing that.
Vengevines definitely strengthen some matchups, like landstill, a lot.
It does seem to be less of an "oops I win" (which is honestly one thing I don't like-and I don't like retarded fatties either), which seemed simply to powerful to pass up. Decks like lands (progenitus) and enchantress (terrastodon) definitely have a mcuh harder time dealing with NO.
Vs. perish comparison is interesting; NO lets you shoot all their lands to help stop them from casting it (especially with wasteland and knight support).
It is ncie to not risk drawing progentius/terrastodon.

As I said I would definitely like to test it, but the greater immediate power and difficulty in answering NO make it seem better.


Hi,

I believe this deck shouldn't play less than 4 Tarmogoyfs.

I've found out that 4 Knight of the Reliquary is too much. I would play 2 maximum, even if you want to include Wasteland. About the best creatures in format:Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf are better, IMO.

Knight >> Goyf.
Goyf is total shit in comparison.


The same goes for Rhox War Monk (metagame-wise). The creature is good in the tribal matchups, but losses every other creature battle in the mid-ranged matchups.

Rhos war monk is a worthless piece of crap.
You know what 3 drop is way better against merfolk? Knight.
Why?
Because it doesn't just die in combat if they get two lords.
Because it can put enough pressure on them to prevent them from overrunning you with lords.
Because it doesn't just die to active jitte-in fact, it can deactive jitte (maze of ith).
Because it can, using maze tricks, be way more useful in combat: with vigilicance it can put on extremely heavy pressure while still holding off a large army (thus effectively giving much more life, or similar life with the bonus of eating an attacker), or hold off two attackers (eating one), including preventing damage from the often extremely hard to deal with coralhelm.
Because it can tap to kill some of their creatures outside of combat while on the defensive.

Goblins is a similar story, except they run a lot more nonbasics, and are a very mana intensive deck that is relatively easy to manascrew, and then smash with giant knights who put on an extremely fast clock.
The only reason piledriver doesn't make rhox war monk completely worthless is because rwm already is.

Should also be mentioned that knight can tap for 3+ mana by tutoring for cradle, which is often enough to get a large lead on board position in one turn (some combination of bombs in one turn).

Knight and wasteland are the two cards that won me more games than any other.
Back when I ran GW survival, knight still didn't lag too far behind the enchantment (but that was in part because I wasn't very good at drawing sotf).


Chris,
Did you test out the Stoneforge package in the deck at all over perhaps Mangara and Mother?
It seems like it would be a perfect fit and help the merfolk matchup a bit..

I tested Green and Taxes, but I didn't try stoneforge alongside the NO package.
I think Mom is to valuable due to the protection she provides knights.
Not only that, but the unblockability she can provide provides huge amounts of synergy with both knight and stoneforge as well-crashing in for 11 unblockable (as in, often lethal) or getting a SoFI/SoLS connection are all huge bonuses mom can provide (along with not getting tempoed out by an stp in response to equipping).

It would be very hard to work stoneforge back into the deck, but cutting the mangara would definitely be a start. I think it may be best to shave some goyfs and pridemages if it were attempted.

I am not very worried about merfolk. I am already planning on modding the sideboard (cutting down e-tutors and upping the choke count for one thing). With 8 removal spells, creature superiority and moms the match up is in our favor.


I assume that a lot of decks will be packing Perish... what would be a good preemptive strike against that card? Counterspells in all honour, but if that card resolves, it's going feel pretty awful.

I (not running blue) focused on attacking their mana base to give them a hard time casting it; terrastodon helps with that as well. I also had to play around it and try to avoid overextending.
Running blue (and counterspells) seems like an easier/safer strategy.

[Eksem]

Very short:

1. Dreadstill: 2 - 0
I have Jace, Plow, counterspells and Pridemages for Dreadnought, and exalted-triggers and KotR for Goyf.

2. Merfolk: 2 - 1
Lost the first game. Islandwalking fish came through with a lot of power. I boarded out counterspells for Stoneforge Mystic-package. SoFI on Tarmogoyf was pretty nuts. Jitte on Clique was good too.

3. Boros - 0 - 2
I just didn't respect red decks with Steppe Lynx enough, and played sloppily. Price of Progress is pretty rough though. I would have won the second game if I hadn't played so bad, so I don't think this matchup is so bad unless you do stupid stuff (like keeping a hand with Horizon Canopy as the main mana source, or fetch for nonbasics when you don't even need to). Rhox War Monk is pretty good. Really disappointed in myself this game.

4. Rock w HexDepths - 2 - 0
The second game he got his 20/20, I played a Karakas, tapped it for mana to drop Jace, and bounced it. Enough said.

5. Green & Taxes - 2 - 0
Mangara+Karakas is cute. Progenitus is big. I prefer big.

6. UG Madness - 0 - 2
Before the tournament, I decided that I did not want graveyard hate in my board. That was not correct. I would have taken game 1 if I had seen at least 1 plow or Jace in like 4-5 turns, but he could use Fauna Shaman in peace to get Wonder, which shut down my Clique. Game 2 I didn't have the FoW for Intuition, and got beat down by Vengevines again (though I had won on the next turn with a Progenitus-swing, so it felt pretty close at least, even though it maybe wasn't).

---

Bant vs Merfolk i'm not so sure of. I actually ran a Merfolk list myself the last small tournament here and I beat Bant-lists pretty easily, but they did not have either Llawan or equipment, and I think that makes a big difference. SoFI is very good if it comes down early enough. But Merfolk is built to beat blue decks so that is something to take into meta considerations.

[ivanpei]

Very short:

5. Green & Taxes - 2 - 0
Mangara+Karakas is cute. Progenitus is big. I prefer big.


This is what I like about NO, it just wins, no frills. Simple and effective. Equipment is big against the fishies. In the last tourney I played, I still lost to them because I boarded out countermagic against folk (Force) and he had the force for my equipment. I went for the threat saturation strategy and tried to minimize card disadvantage through Force. Folk is difficult especially when pilotted by someone who knows his stuff. The guy I played against had my nightmare build (MD Kiras and Sowers). Post board it gets worse. :( But oh well, that's the meta wheel right?

@ Chris, I agree that Magic takes up alot of time. I spend literally almost 1/5 of my salary on MTG, my earnings from MTG? miniscul and puny. But I still love the game. I find that what drives me to squander so much money on MTG is the mental exercise (is retrospect, nope, I made alot of money off the legacy staple price jumps). I have a hyper active mind and day to day tasks bore me, so MTG is an outlet for my mind. I'm sure you do it for the love of the game and not the $$$. I probably could make more flipping burgers compared to doing alters or playing MTG, but I still do them anyway because its fun!

[ivanpei]

Interesting UGr build T8ed SCG.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38060

I agree with this guy's NO-centric approach. 4 NO-Good. I dunno about 4 Cliques though. I love the card, but 4? Wow, ballsey. His deck is basically Control-combo. Use bolts and chains to slow the opponent, and NO. This list looks like it could do well even against folk.

[adamt]

my friend Dave Nolan top 8'd at SCG charlottte yesterday with pretty much Reid's RUG NO list. He just made the chain lightnings Fire/Ice's to up the blue count I assume and have more instant removal.

I played a similar list but stayed with bant, but ran 6 STP/PTE in his red slots and top 8'd a 90 person GPT for Providence yesterday.

I could see where the red removal could cast the final points of damage, but I had too many times where i needed to kill a 5/5 or 5/6 that bolts wouldn't have got there for me.

the red blasts out of the board look awesome though.

[Final Fortune]

Interesting UGr build T8ed SCG.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38060

I agree with this guy's NO-centric approach. 4 NO-Good. I dunno about 4 Cliques though. I love the card, but 4? Wow, ballsey. His deck is basically Control-combo. Use bolts and chains to slow the opponent, and NO. This list looks like it could do well even against folk.

Vendilion Clique is the second most important card to resolve after Natural Order, I've played 3x since I've piloted the deck and personally I can see the argument for 4x. The /r splash is sketchy tho', as awesome as REB is Lighting Bolt and Chain Lightning are nothing compared to Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile

Is everybody cutting Daze for Mental Misstep btw?

[loop]

Hi, nice to see other people interested in this deck.
I've been tweaking and playing this list for some time :

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

It's been very good in testing and the few local tourneys I attended so far, so I'm quite happy with it.
Now, I've been thinking about Mental Misstep, probably like everyone else on this forum.

I stopped playing Daze in this deck a long time ago when I realized I was never happy to cast it (I either wanted to ramp or it didn't do anything useful).

Pierce on the other hand has been very good, not at protecting NO because it's hard to keep the mana up to cast it, but to counter a lot of other annoying things (Hymns, removal, Jaces, NO, vial, etc.) and it's saved me a lot of times.

So basically, I'm wondering how much I want MM in this list. I've done a bit of proxy testing and while it's obviously good, I haven't reached a definitive conclusion. Does it have more value than Spell Pierce? I'm not sure, because Pierce has a LOT of versatility and is pretty great in the early midgame.
I'm comparing the two even though they are functionally different because the list is pretty tight already and I don't think I'd like to cut anything else for an additional counter.
Thoughts?

[Final Fortune]

I think Mental Misstep > counters that cost mana, because the deck wants to spend its turns casting acceleration and resolving Vendilion Clique and Natural Order ASAP. I replaced Daze with Misdirection a while back for the same reason, but I think Mental Misstep protects against the same, if not more, disruption than Misdirection because you can counter Spell Pierce and/or Duress and co. for card parody.

Spell Pierce goes dead in the mid game and this deck just never wants to hold its mana back, IMO. About the only other MD card I was really thinking about was Meddling Mage, but they're probably better SB material.

[ivanpei]

I'm currently trying out 2 new builds of Zenith Order. Firstly, my super combo oriented build:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
2 Personal Tutor ( I know, I know, but it's surprisingly effective)
4 Thoughtseize
4 NO
1 Proggy

4 Noble
4 GSZ
1 BOP
4 Goyf
4 Cliques

4 Trop
2 Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Dryad
4 Misty
4 Verdant
1 Delta

This list absolutely wrecks midrange, control and combo. Against fast aggro it's a little sketchy but a quick hand can get there. Having 4 Force, 4 Cliques and 4 Thoughtseize absolutely destroys decks and makes forcing through NO very easy.

Here's my "normal" list:

4 Force
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Personal Tutor (This and a Clique were Dazes, and could later be missteps)
4 STP
4 NO
1 Proggy

4 Noble
1 Pridemage
4 Goyf
4 GSZ
4 Clique

4 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savanna
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Dryad
4 Windswepth
4 Misty
1 Flooded

Some observations, RWM sucks so it got cut for the 20th land (I found myself digging for land way too often with cantrips). Daze also sucks big time and from the last tourney I played, Daze does nothing against combo and almost nothing against everything else. Whenever I lost, I usually find that its because I can't find NO quick enough or Combo just races me. I swapped 3 Dazes for 2 Personals and a 4th Clique. Obviously personals are better in the black build since they find thoughtseize, but its been great for me so far. I consistently get NO out on Turns 3/4 with personals so basically this deck has become a full fledged combo deck. Who are we kidding, I win 80% of my games with NO anyway and when I try to go aggro, I die horribly.

Post Mental Misstep, we have to run the card because: It is disruption and can protect us from Thoughtseize/Spell pierce and other Mental Missteps on our Noble Heirarchs/GSZs. It slows aggro by nabbing a T1 Vial/Lackey/Necatl. Our deck is also soft to Combo and Misstep helps in that MU. So what to cut? I am firmly in the camp of the 4th Clique and 2 Personal tutors so I believe STP is a safe cut to play Mental Misstep. Here's what a Misstep list would look like:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Misstep
2 Personal Tutor
4 NO
1 Proggy

4 Clique
4 Goyf
4 GSZ
4 Noble
1 BOP

4 Misty
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Volcanic
1 Taiga
2 Dryad Arbor

Since Folk is the deck's mortal Enemy, I think a red splash is best for the SB cards:

3 REB
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Llawan
3 Crypt
3 Nature's Claim (this card is awesome)

[Jigga_Tech]

I'm currently trying out 2 new builds of Zenith Order. Firstly, my super combo oriented build:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
2 Personal Tutor ( I know, I know, but it's surprisingly effective)
4 Thoughtseize
4 NO
1 Proggy

4 Noble
4 GSZ
1 BOP
4 Goyf
4 Cliques

4 Trop
2 Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Dryad
4 Misty
4 Verdant
1 Delta

This list absolutely wrecks midrange, control and combo. Against fast aggro it's a little sketchy but a quick hand can get there. Having 4 Force, 4 Cliques and 4 Thoughtseize absolutely destroys decks and makes forcing through NO very easy.

Here's my "normal" list:

4 Force
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Personal Tutor (This and a Clique were Dazes, and could later be missteps)
4 STP
4 NO
1 Proggy

4 Noble
1 Pridemage
4 Goyf
4 GSZ
4 Clique

4 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savanna
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Dryad
4 Windswepth
4 Misty
1 Flooded

Some observations, RWM sucks so it got cut for the 20th land (I found myself digging for land way too often with cantrips). Daze also sucks big time and from the last tourney I played, Daze does nothing against combo and almost nothing against everything else. Whenever I lost, I usually find that its because I can't find NO quick enough or Combo just races me. I swapped 3 Dazes for 2 Personals and a 4th Clique. Obviously personals are better in the black build since they find thoughtseize, but its been great for me so far. I consistently get NO out on Turns 3/4 with personals so basically this deck has become a full fledged combo deck. Who are we kidding, I win 80% of my games with NO anyway and when I try to go aggro, I die horribly.

Post Mental Misstep, we have to run the card because: It is disruption and can protect us from Thoughtseize/Spell pierce and other Mental Missteps on our Noble Heirarchs/GSZs. It slows aggro by nabbing a T1 Vial/Lackey/Necatl. Our deck is also soft to Combo and Misstep helps in that MU. So what to cut? I am firmly in the camp of the 4th Clique and 2 Personal tutors so I believe STP is a safe cut to play Mental Misstep. Here's what a Misstep list would look like:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Misstep
2 Personal Tutor
4 NO
1 Proggy

4 Clique
4 Goyf
4 GSZ
4 Noble
1 BOP

4 Misty
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Volcanic
1 Taiga
2 Dryad Arbor

Since Folk is the deck's mortal Enemy, I think a red splash is best for the SB cards:

3 REB
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Llawan
3 Crypt
3 Nature's Claim (this card is awesome)

ivanpei,

I really like your post Mental Misstep list. It is almost identical to the list i was thinking of. I currently have been playing a UG NO_Show deck with GZG and Goyfs but the Show and tells and Emrakuls have been less then impressive. I win most games with NO anyways. I was going to cut those for Cliques and Missteps. I just couldn't think of the last 2 cards to fill out the deck. I was thinking of Personal Tutor like you have but I thought it would be too slow. How has it been in your testing? I was also thinking of maybe 2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor but I don't know if i want 6 4-drops. Have you been having any issues getting double blue for cliques and then double green the following turn for NO? Right now I have a Terastadon in the slot where you have birds. I currently have him in my board of the NO_Show deck but bring him in almost every game. Also I was going to try and stick to a UG version and hope to lock Merfolk out with Llawan and pithing needle. Lastly have you tried the UGr version at all. I dont' know if its worth it splashing for just bolts.

[ivanpei]

I don't really think we need Jace, since six 4 drops is quite alot as you mentioned. I realize that we are not good at attrition and we want to win straight away (ie cast NO) so finding NO is the no 1 priority. I find that hybridizing a deck weakens the deck in general (only exception here is Stifle nought). I tried to play a build that was aggro, combo and Control at the same time but that didnt work out. I find it best to just concentrate on 1 plan. This deck aims to NO quickly and if that fails, just go sideways with Goyfs/Clique/GSZ. Also, if you are straight UG, you are going to find it very difficult to keep Jace alive, since you don't have removal.

Personal tutor tested very well. When you already have order in hand, it pitches to Force or finds GSZ. I don't want to play too many since they're not great when you already have NO. I'm not a fan of MD terastodon. I tried it and it's pretty clunky. Terastodon is best against decks like countertop thopthers and combo (by nuking lands) but too often I get it stuck in hand. Unlike GW decks which don't have brainstorm, we have Brainstorms AND Cliques to shove Proggy back into the deck.

I did try the UGR version. Basically you are using the burn to buy you time to find NO. I then realised, why not just make finding NO easier by playing 2 personal tutors? I don't find the splash worth it though. If you could go off 1 turn earlier, you can bypass playing removal totally. Now with missteps, you can easily slow your opponent and take your time playing NO. Goyf and Cliques are also no slouches at blocking. Ninja Dryad Arbors, Nobles and BOPs all chump block too.

I find that the deck usually wins if I stick the T1 accel. 8 Was good, but I don't consistently get the T1 accel. I tried 10, but missed land drops, so I ended up with 9 + 20 lands. Thats the magic balance for me ATM. Actually I think that the red splash for SB cards isn't that great. Maybe I can do -3 red duals, + 2 basics and 1 more blue fetch. What's a straight UG sb look like though?

Probably:
3 Llawan (God I hate folk)
3 Propaganda- Wrecks Tribal/swarms which this deck is soft to due to their quick clock
3 Crypt
3 Nature's Claim (deals with Vial too)
3 Spell pierce

[Final Fortune]

I disagree with cutting Swords to Plowshares, the deck can and does win via. Exalted Tarmogoyfs and Vendilion Cliques and you need to be certain you clear the ground of Knight of the Reliquary as much as possible - I board in Path to Exile more than any other SB card.

Personal Tutor is narrow card disadvantage, losing one card, telegraphing Natural Order, and losing Natural Order and a Noble Hierarch to a counter is just a savage beating. I think if you're relying on Natural Order, you're better off running Pre-Ordains to increase the odds of seeing it while still having access to the rest of the deck. Otherwise, you're going to be playing a shitty version of NO SHO with worthless Tarmogoyfs in the combat phase and over costed Vendilion Cliques as disruption instead of just running GSZ for Dryad Arbor and Xantid Swarms and playing Show and Tell and Emrakul as your plan B.

Edit: It'd slow the deck down, but we could play Top MD and SB in Counterbalance as well.

[ivanpei]

I disagree with cutting Swords to Plowshares, the deck can and does win via. Exalted Tarmogoyfs and Vendilion Cliques and you need to be certain you clear the ground of Knight of the Reliquary as much as possible - I board in Path to Exile more than any other SB card.

Personal Tutor is narrow card disadvantage, losing one card, telegraphing Natural Order, and losing Natural Order and a Noble Hierarch to a counter is just a savage beating. I think if you're relying on Natural Order, you're better off running Pre-Ordains to increase the odds of seeing it while still having access to the rest of the deck. Otherwise, you're going to be playing a shitty version of NO SHO with worthless Tarmogoyfs in the combat phase and over costed Vendilion Cliques as disruption instead of just running GSZ for Dryad Arbor and Xantid Swarms and playing Show and Tell and Emrakul as your plan B.

Edit: It'd slow the deck down, but we could play Top MD and SB in Counterbalance as well.

Granted Personal Tutor tested very well in my UGb versions which play infinite protection where I almost always resolve NO. But dismissing Personal Tutor is unwise. The card is not perfect, but in a combo oriented deck that maxes out on NO + Cliques, it can be very valuable. I think it deserves testing in decks that want NO as the plan A. Playing additional cantrips only gets you that far. Take ANT for example. Why do they play a shitty tutor like Grim? It's to up threat density as cantripping into cantrip happens quite often and you don't get your key card in time.

Of couse ANT does not have the benefit of a plan B of Tarmos and Cliques. In a more aggro meta, UGW midrange is a better option, but I'll test both. Personal tutor shouldn't be dismissed because its rare and obscure. It does exactly what the deck needs. You want to bypass the card advantage game and just Slam the NO to win. My UGb list abuses NO and Personal to the max due to the high amount of disruption it can run. I can personally testify that I've lost more games because I don't draw NO compared to the games I've lost because NO was countered. NO is THAT good.

[Final Fortune]

Granted Personal Tutor tested very well in my UGb versions which play infinite protection where I almost always resolve NO. But dismissing Personal Tutor is unwise. The card is not perfect, but in a combo oriented deck that maxes out on NO + Cliques, it can be very valuable. I think it deserves testing in decks that want NO as the plan A. Playing additional cantrips only gets you that far. Take ANT for example. Why do they play a shitty tutor like Grim? It's to up threat density as cantripping into cantrip happens quite often and you don't get your key card in time.

Of couse ANT does not have the benefit of a plan B of Tarmos and Cliques. In a more aggro meta, UGW midrange is a better option, but I'll test both. Personal tutor shouldn't be dismissed because its rare and obscure. It does exactly what the deck needs. You want to bypass the card advantage game and just Slam the NO to win. My UGb list abuses NO and Personal to the max due to the high amount of disruption it can run. I can personally testify that I've lost more games because I don't draw NO compared to the games I've lost because NO was countered. NO is THAT good.

Of course vs. Aggro Personal Tutor is the nut high, but Personal Tutor is a liability in each and every match up where we can't resolve Natural Order and face roll our key boards to victory. Between Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshare and to a certain extent Vendilion Clique, the deck isn't in danger of being blown out by aggro, and I think we have enough time to spin the Top and have more of an even game plan of aggro, control, combo etc. rather than relying on NO. Personal Tutor just doesn't do anything for you unless you're already winning, where Top wins by itself. - plus SBing in Counterbalance is just so unfair

[Jigga_Tech]

Lots of good discussion going on here guys. I like that.

@ ivanpei: I get what your saying about the maindeck Terastadon being clucky. I think thats why I moved him to the board to begin with. I was just thinking since I bring him in alot maybe play him main. But after you validated your 1 BOP I get why you have it. I played 10 accelerants in the NO Show deck but that included 2 Ancient tomb. I would cut those in just a UG NO version though so 20 and 9 accelerants should be good. I do like how you compair Personal Tutor to Grim Tutor in ANT because it finds you what you want which is NO. With only running 2 i don't think it will be dead too often. If you draw it after you already have NO you should already be on your way to winning. This basicly lets the deck play 6 NOs. I also agree with the changes to your mana base. I was thinking:

4 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
4 green fetch
2 blue fetch
2 forest
2 island
2 dryad arbor

As for a UG sideboard i was thinking maybe something like this:
2 Krosan Grip
1 Terastadon
3 Llawan
2 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell pierce
1 Xantid Swarm (good vs folk to resolve NO and can GSZ it out and they have no removal)
1 Sower of Temptation(good vs random problem creatures like Blazing Archon and Peace Keeper)

Im not sure if Propaganda is needed vs agro since we have FOW and MM to slow them down and plenty of chump blockers. Merfolk does still scare me a little though.

@ Final Fotune: I don't think Personal Tutor only does something if your already winning. It finds you what you want to win, and thats NO. Sure it telegraphs NO but after game on your opponent is already going to know what you are playing so its not going to be a supprise anyways. Would you mind explaining how it only does something if you are already winning please?

[Ajsmirnov]

Great UGb list btw. I started thinking that NO strategy is not good enough before Maverik became extremely popular. And I was unable to beat them without NO. So I am really going to test your list hardly, maybe it is the one I was looking for.

[ivanpei]

I'm playing 2 lists now for 2 different metas. My UGb list is unchanged, and I will play that in a Combo-Control-Midrange Meta. Personal tutor is less useful in a UGw list, definitely, but it rocks in my UGb one.

@ Ajsmirnov and Jigga, you are right, in some matchups, you just want to Slam NO and take it home. I lost a lot of games against midrange because I can't find NO to take it home.

@ Final Fortune, I agree with your arguments as well, that's why I haven't dismissed the Bant lists. IMO bant lists are better against Tribal/Zoo/Aggro.

I play a UGw Misstep Bant NO right now when I want to tackle Tribal, Zoo, Folk and Fast aggro. So far this has been very good (I finally got my Missteps after camping over 2 flights of prerelease):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Misstep (This card is AWESOME)

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Goyf
1 Pridemage
3 Cliques

4 NO
1 Proggy
3 STP (It's either I cut this, the 3rd Clique or Goyf, Misstep IS THAT GOOD)

2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty
4 Windswept
1 Flooded
4 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savanna
1 Island
1 Forest

Misstep is ridiculous, I've improved my MU percentages across the board, whether it's against Folk (Vial, Cursecatcher, Pierce), Gobs (Vial, Lackey) or Control (STP on my mana Accel, their Brainstorms). Card is gay as hell. It kinda serves the same purpose as STP, so I trimmed 3 Daze and 1 STP to fit in 4 Missteps. I don't feel that the list is optimized if we just play 3 STPs though, but the list is very tight already. 20 lands is the bare minimum IMO. I played 19 for the longest time and I had to dig for lands with cantrips way too much.

BTW, this deck is 50/50 or better (depending on your play skill) against most decks in legacy. Pre misstep, this deck was soft to Storm combo and Merfolk. Post Misstep, Merfolk is still hard but Combo just got alot easier since Misstep ->>> Daze in that matchup.

[Final Fortune]

I'm playing 2 lists now for 2 different metas. My UGb list is unchanged, and I will play that in a Combo-Control-Midrange Meta. Personal tutor is less useful in a UGw list, definitely, but it rocks in my UGb one.

@ Ajsmirnov and Jigga, you are right, in some matchups, you just want to Slam NO and take it home. I lost a lot of games against midrange because I can't find NO to take it home.

@ Final Fortune, I agree with your arguments as well, that's why I haven't dismissed the Bant lists. IMO bant lists are better against Tribal/Zoo/Aggro.

I play a UGw Misstep Bant NO right now when I want to tackle Tribal, Zoo, Folk and Fast aggro. So far this has been very good (I finally got my Missteps after camping over 2 flights of prerelease):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Misstep (This card is AWESOME)

4 Noble
4 GSZ
4 Goyf
1 Pridemage
3 Cliques

4 NO
1 Proggy
3 STP (It's either I cut this, the 3rd Clique or Goyf, Misstep IS THAT GOOD)

2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty
4 Windswept
1 Flooded
4 Trop
2 Tundra
1 Savanna
1 Island
1 Forest

Misstep is ridiculous, I've improved my MU percentages across the board, whether it's against Folk (Vial, Cursecatcher, Pierce), Gobs (Vial, Lackey) or Control (STP on my mana Accel, their Brainstorms). Card is gay as hell. It kinda serves the same purpose as STP, so I trimmed 3 Daze and 1 STP to fit in 4 Missteps. I don't feel that the list is optimized if we just play 3 STPs though, but the list is very tight already. 20 lands is the bare minimum IMO. I played 19 for the longest time and I had to dig for lands with cantrips way too much.

BTW, this deck is 50/50 or better (depending on your play skill) against most decks in legacy. Pre misstep, this deck was soft to Storm combo and Merfolk. Post Misstep, Merfolk is still hard but Combo just got alot easier since Misstep ->>> Daze in that matchup.

Cut the second Dryad Arbor for the fourth Swords to Plowshares, you never, ever want to draw Dryad Arbor and you can usually Green Sun's Zenith for Exalted Hierarch in the early to middle game if Dryad Arbor dies. I run more or less the same list, with 2nd Dryad Arbor -> 4th Swords to Plowshares and Flooded Strand -> Plains.

I think you're over-rating Mental Misstep vs Storm Combo btw, it's still an unfavorable matchup vs. TES without SB hate.

[supachai]

Ivanpei, what're your thoughts on a second NO target, (such as Terastadon)? In many situations it can be better than Progenitus and provides a second NO target if we draw into Progenitus (I know we can brainstorm/clique it back but not always). Otherwise, I'm really liking your list and playing something very similar.

[Ajsmirnov]

Just rely on brainstorming/cliquing it back is better then have 2nd NO-target you can draw or see in your starting 7

[ivanpei]

Terastodon is the second best target but I don't think he is maindeckable. I only really want him when i expect alot of combo in the meta. Nuking opponent's lands is it's primary purpose. I played an empyrial angel in the side for a while because there was alot of burn. Don't think there are any other good targets. Like ajsmirnov said, you don't want to double your chances of drawing a blank. Cheers. As for the dryad arbor, I'll swap the 2nd for a stp and see how much I miss it. In testing, the 2nd arbor was important in case I drew the arbor or in case I need to ninja out the 2nd with a fetch to chump or to NO.

Deck has just became even tighter with the printing of misstep. Not much flex slots to play with.

[Jigga_Tech]

If we are talking about a 3rd color in this deck I think I would rather have red. This just may be my personal oppinion though. In an unkown metagame I would rather have Lightning Bolts that I can use on my opponent rather then dead Swords to Plowshares sitting in my hand in certian matchups. I guess it really depends on the metagame. Adding red all helps our worst matchup (Merfolk).

Here is a sample list I was thinking about

4 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble
4 Goyf
3 Clique
1 Progenitus

4 ponder
4 GSZ
4 NO

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard
4 pyro/red blast
1 Terastadon
2 Krosan Grip
3 relic/crypt
3 spell pierce
1 sower of temptation
1 xantid swarm

This is just a rough draft so let me know what you think. The sideboard could use some work and I am not sure about the mana base. I know I do want 2 Dryad Arbors though. From my testing the first one dies way too easily. I know Mental Misstep should help that but still. Its always good to fetch out as a supprise blocker and its the best creature to sac to NO.

[ivanpei]

@ Jigga, don't think you need the 2nd Taiga, another fetch is probably better.

Here's a list of stuff I'd splash for:

Red:

Bolts (and maybe chains)
REBs
Firespout
Vexing Shusher

White:

STP
Qasali Pridemage (Pretty important from my testing)
Dueling Grounds
Path
Gaddock Teeq (Also very important)

Black:

Thoughtseize
Duress
Engineered Plague
Extirpate

I'm still leaning on White against a fast aggro meta and black for a combo/control meta. REBs and Shusher seem awesome in Red though. Imagine GSZ-ing out a shusher and your opponent simply loses access to all counters. Though Xantid Swarm seems to do the same thing as well.

[adamt]

@ Jigga

Just look at the lists that Reid Duke and Dave Nolan top 8'd the recent SCG tournaments with UGR NO lists...

Reid ran Bolts and Chain Lightenings and Dave ran Bolts and Fire/Ice

I've been testing it out a bit and the red helps tremendously against Merfolk as Firespout out of the s/b has been rather amazing vs all the aggro matchups... so much so that I'd be tempted to run a 3rd in the s/b (running 2 in s/b now)

the only matchup I've had a hard time with the red splash was mono black "Gate" style decks as they have a ton of creature removal and discard which this deck doesn't like. I don't anticipate seeing much of those decks, but perhaps Mental Mistep coming in for Dazes/Ponder slots would make that matchup a bit better.

I'd been playing NO Bant with 4 STP and 2 PTE in essentially Reid's shell (instead of the red splash he had) and it was great but my biggest losses with that deck were when I was keepng them alive with STP on their goyfs or accelerating them to their 4th land drops for Jace when I could have just bolted their creatures or them to end the games.

[tsabo_tavoc]

@the R splash:

MD 4 bolts + 2 Lavamancer configuration has been working well for me, while I find the real reasons to splash R are REB and Firespout from SB. Although Stp/Qasali/Karakas+Clique are great options, they are not aggressive enough and there are better plans for the control strategy (YES, it's called JACE, not NO) and the midrange strategy (Reliquary+Wasteland which this deck sadly does not fully support).

[Jigga_Tech]

@ivanpei: I forgot about Vexing Shusher. Seems like an intersting idea to try out. It does serve the same purpose as xantid swarm. Its 1 more to zenith out but doesn't need to attack to activate it just 1 mana to use. I will have to test him out

@adamt: I have seen Dave/Reid's list that is kinda where i got my idea from. I was just trying to update the list to include Mental Misstep. I saw you have also posted in the Agro Bant thread about that deck too. I have been reading there as well but mostly posting in here. You said Dave was a friend of yours correct? How does he feel about the deck? 4 cliques not too many? 1 Dryad Arbor enough? Fire/Ice better then Chain Lightning? Reid's manabase work well enough? Sorry for so many questions. I know you mention Mental Misstep in the daze/ponder slot. Maybe cut all the dazes and go down to 2 ponder for 4 mental misstep? Does the deck really need 6 burn/removel, seems like what most versions run?

@tsabo_tavoc: Grim Lavamancer, seems interesting I will have to try him out in the extra removal slot.

@ everybody: You guys all seem to like Firesprout out of the board. I notice Dave and Reid didnt' run it. Doesn't it just kill your dryad arbors and noble hierarchs that you need for NO?

[adamt]

@Jigga

That is what I've been doing for the Missteps in my testing so far (-3 daze -1 ponder) for them.

My biggest hesitation with this deck and also running missteps in it is that all of our early plays get hosed by misstep as well as our removal suites. Merfolk loses the least from Missteps and gains the most. Goblins is pretty much dead in the water. I've been looking at ways to diversify 1 drops into other casting costs, but most of that requires a different color (like black instead of red/white for removal).

Has anyone thought about Dismembers at all as a removal slot, perhaps as a 2 of?

I emailed back and forth with Dave a bit after SCG Charlotte and he loved the deck and really didn't find any faults with it other than wanting more anti-dredge cards in the s/b. In my testing with the deck, the 1 Dryad Arbor has been enough as you dread drawing it or having it in your opening hand. Fire/Ice being an instant that can be pitched to FOW has been nice over the Chains. Reid's manabase was essentially a port of AJ's with just putting red duals and fetches in for the white ones (savannah=>taiga, tundra=>volcanic, heaths=> foothills).. which I've not run into any issues with other than wanting/testing a basic plains or mountain over the 3rd tundra/volcanic.

For a large SCG meta, I might not run firepouts in the board as there is more control and combo there, but for my local meta and GPTrials, the firespouts have been amazing. 3-1'ing aggro decks I hear is good, especially when they aren't expecting it from anything other then a control deck. Most of the time when I am firespouting, I have a Goyf out that lives through it and then gets used for NO a turn or two later. I've been bringing out the fire/ices for the firespouts for the aggro matchups.

[Jigga_Tech]

@adamt: thanks for the reply and answering all of my questions, very informative. I think we should be alright as far as the opponents mental missteps are concerned. I know it hits our early developement and removal but that's why we pack our own missteps. As far as the ported manabase goes, are you refering to AJ's NO bant list? II belive he ran 4 trops, 1 tundra, 1 savannah, 4 misty, 7 green fetch, 1 forest 1 island, aand 2 dryad arbor(21 total). So it is a little different. I also want to make sure I do have some graveyard hate in the board too. Let me know how your testing goes. I really want to run this at GP Providence.

[Chikenbok]

Posted this up in the No-Pro section under DTB without seeing this section up here, figure I'll give it another shot and comment regarding some posts I got about it over there.

So, I've been testing the a modified version of Duke's build for a while now. After making the switch away from Canadian Thresh and refusing to give up my beloved Lightning Bolts I've settled on a list that I find to be pretty damned solid - any input would be greatly appreciated, I'm sure you'll see the obvious inclusions and removals from the MD:

Creatures: 12
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Vendillion Clique
1 x Progenitus

Instant: 17
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Fire // Ice
4 x Force of Will
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Mental Misstep

Sorcery: 11
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Natural Order
3 x Ponder

Plainswalker: 2
2 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land: 18
2 x Flooded Strand
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
1 x Taiga
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Volcanic Island
1 x Forest
1 x Island
1 x Dryad Arbor

The inclusion of the Jaces can turn the deck in an entirely different direction pre-board against certain decks that run out of quick steam (usually with the aid of some burn). Not entirely sure/sold on the Fire//Ice yet so if anyone has a one of they'd suggest running over it, 'twould be much appreciated. Daze was pulled simply because the deck needs land, and misstep deals with anything attempting to get rid of my creatures.

Best,

Chiken

First off, the cutting of the last land was really a choice on my part. I've always found that I play tighter when I have more business and less land. The 4 Hierarchs and the 4 Zenith's really function as the turn 2/3 guaranteed land drop and the ponder/BS should get ya there after that. The 4 missteps are working out incredibly well with 1 usually being pitched to FoW and the other to keep a swords off my a Hierarch or Goyf.

In regards to the Jaces they're in there for control matchups. Everyone has had an experience where you sit and fight through EE's, Swords, Paths, Factories, and then finally the Jace comes down - well, I wanted to be able to do that too, with a progenitus in front of mine. In aggro matches he pitches to FoW and is generally boarded out quite fast.

Still, any help would be great

[ivanpei]

I would prefer to run 20 lands. I played 19 for the longest while, it's enough but you have to dig hard for land with cantrips. It's a matter of choice IMO. I liked the 4th Ponder, helps dig for the all important NO, and just a good card all around. Other than that, list looks fine. I'm not a fan of MD Jaces though. Six 4cc spells is quite alot even though we run plenty of ramp. I'd play the 4th Clique over any Jaces. Cliques come down a turn before NO and protects NO from Counterspells. So far that has worked fine for me.

[Chikenbok]

I would prefer to run 20 lands. I played 19 for the longest while, it's enough but you have to dig hard for land with cantrips. It's a matter of choice IMO. I liked the 4th Ponder, helps dig for the all important NO, and just a good card all around. Other than that, list looks fine. I'm not a fan of MD Jaces though. Six 4cc spells is quite alot even though we run plenty of ramp. I'd play the 4th Clique over any Jaces. Cliques come down a turn before NO and protects NO from Counterspells. So far that has worked fine for me.

About the lands well, as you said, its personal preference. The fourth ponder usually got pitched to FoW when I was testing so I cut it for a Jace, which also usually gets pitched to force. The 2 jaces MD are usually, like I said, Force fodder but when they're not, the game is over with a win on my side. I was considering cutting the last Fire // Ice for the 4th ponder if anything but, I'm sure as we all know, a resolve PRO doesn't always get the job done but a jace afterwards, well, that usuallly finished everything up.

Running 6 4cc spells does seem tight but at this point I simply cannot cut the Jaces, they've saved me in too many games to cut em.

- Chiken

[Eksem]

Im trying 20 lands today, 19 was working ok, but I was digging way too much for lands and having to take one or two mulligans too many during tournaments earlier. I don't like missing out capitalising on the ramp because of missing land drops, which has also happened. Therefore, 20 lands from now on.

I will play my first large tournament with Mental Misstep as early as sunday, I am thinking of running something like this:

4 Hierarch, 4 Goyf, 3 KotR, 2 Clique, 1 Progenitus
4 FoW, 4 Misstep, 4 Plow
3 GSZ, 3 NO, 2 Jace
4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder
1 Savannah, 2 Tundra, 3 Trop, 4 Misty, 2 Flooded Strand, 2 Windswept, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Karakas, 2 Island, 1 Forest

SB is probably something like:
2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI, 1 Null Rod, 1 Energy Flux, 2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Sower, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 1 Trygon Predator, 2 Spell Pierce

[ivanpei]

Im trying 20 lands today, 19 was working ok, but I was digging way too much for lands and having to take one or two mulligans too many during tournaments earlier. I don't like missing out capitalising on the ramp because of missing land drops, which has also happened. Therefore, 20 lands from now on.

I will play my first large tournament with Mental Misstep as early as sunday, I am thinking of running something like this:

4 Hierarch, 4 Goyf, 3 KotR, 2 Clique, 1 Progenitus
4 FoW, 4 Misstep, 4 Plow
3 GSZ, 3 NO, 2 Jace
4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder
1 Savannah, 2 Tundra, 3 Trop, 4 Misty, 2 Flooded Strand, 2 Windswept, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Karakas, 2 Island, 1 Forest

SB is probably something like:
2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI, 1 Null Rod, 1 Energy Flux, 2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Engineered Explosives, 2 Sower, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 1 Trygon Predator, 2 Spell Pierce

Good luck! No MD pridemage? I'd run it, it's been insanely useful. The 3rd KOTR is cuttable for it. KOTR isn't as optimal since you don't run wastelands but it's still an excellent bomb. SB I always want to have 1 Teeq and 1 Xantid Swarm for combo and control respectively. Cheers!

EDIT:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21837_Constructed_Criticism_Brewing_Blue_In_Legacy.html

Chickenbok's article here. Nice for this deck to get some attention. Btw I agree with this conclusion:
"If you haven't noticed, I'm currently under the impression that Natural Order is the best strategy in Legacy, if only because it's a simplistic form of attack that is very difficult to combat. The deck feels like a control deck about 90% of the time, waiting to pounce with Natural Order when the opponent least expects it. With access to Force of Will and now Mental Misstep, I honestly don't see how the strategy is beatable to within a reasonable percentage."

I have access to any legacy deck and if I were to sleeve up tomorrow for a tournament, I would play this deck. Anyway the life gain from STP hasn't been an issue for me. Fetchland pains + Exalted triggers/Clique swing usually ends the game for me. Mental Misstep is so sick in this deck, it replaces what were our shitty conditional counters like Daze/Pierce, strenghtening the deck overall.

[Chikenbok]

Chickenbok's article here. Nice for this deck to get some attention. Btw I agree with this conclusion:
"If you haven't noticed, I'm currently under the impression that Natural Order is the best strategy in Legacy, if only because it's a simplistic form of attack that is very difficult to combat. The deck feels like a control deck about 90% of the time, waiting to pounce with Natural Order when the opponent least expects it. With access to Force of Will and now Mental Misstep, I honestly don't see how the strategy is beatable to within a reasonable percentage.".

I like it.

[Jigga_Tech]

Good luck! No MD pridemage? I'd run it, it's been insanely useful. The 3rd KOTR is cuttable for it. KOTR isn't as optimal since you don't run wastelands but it's still an excellent bomb. SB I always want to have 1 Teeq and 1 Xantid Swarm for combo and control respectively. Cheers!

EDIT:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21837_Constructed_Criticism_Brewing_Blue_In_Legacy.html

Chickenbok's article here. Nice for this deck to get some attention. Btw I agree with this conclusion:
"If you haven't noticed, I'm currently under the impression that Natural Order is the best strategy in Legacy, if only because it's a simplistic form of attack that is very difficult to combat. The deck feels like a control deck about 90% of the time, waiting to pounce with Natural Order when the opponent least expects it. With access to Force of Will and now Mental Misstep, I honestly don't see how the strategy is beatable to within a reasonable percentage."

I have access to any legacy deck and if I were to sleeve up tomorrow for a tournament, I would play this deck. Anyway the life gain from STP hasn't been an issue for me. Fetchland pains + Exalted triggers/Clique swing usually ends the game for me. Mental Misstep is so sick in this deck, it replaces what were our shitty conditional counters like Daze/Pierce, strenghtening the deck overall.

Wait is Chickenbok Todd Anderson?

I like this article too. Very well written. I guess this deck is going to get more hype now, I was kind of hoping it stayed off the radar a bit more for GP Providence. I'm curious how it will do this weekend at SCG Orlando and the Bazzar of Moxen tournement in France this weekend.

As far as the deck list goes I like it alot. I was thinking of uping to 20 lands just so I don't have to keep searching for land with cantrips and replacing the 3rd volcanic with the 4th tropical since this deck is basicly U/G. So have we all come to a conclusion that 1 Dryad Arbor is the way to go? Also the 1 Fire/Ice seems kind of random. Would it be better as the 4th ponder or 4 clique or is 3 enough of both of those?

[ac3eb]

Hey fellas,

I might be settling on the UGr NO list that has been going around lately for my next few tournaments, including SCG Indi. When I saw Todd Anderson's list, I really liked it. One thing that did bother me, however, is that the deck has few ways to actually protect the combo. Yes, mental misstep is amazing, but it can't protect NO. So my question is...what is the purpose of MM in this deck?

Team America plays MM to protect its creatures from StP and PtE, control decks play it to counter early vials, lackeys, etc. Because Progenitus is the main path to victory, does the list warrant 4 MM? It does not stop FoW, Daze, counterspell, etc. Essentially, I feel like the inclusion of MM does not help the NO strategy. Don't get me wrong, MM is insane and I do believe it has a place in this deck, I'm just not sure if 4 is the right number. Is 4 FoW and 3 Clique enough to resolve NO?

[ivanpei]

Wait is Chickenbok Todd Anderson?

I like this article too. Very well written. I guess this deck is going to get more hype now, I was kind of hoping it stayed off the radar a bit more for GP Providence. I'm curious how it will do this weekend at SCG Orlando and the Bazzar of Moxen tournement in France this weekend.

As far as the deck list goes I like it alot. I was thinking of uping to 20 lands just so I don't have to keep searching for land with cantrips and replacing the 3rd volcanic with the 4th tropical since this deck is basicly U/G. So have we all come to a conclusion that 1 Dryad Arbor is the way to go? Also the 1 Fire/Ice seems kind of random. Would it be better as the 4th ponder or 4 clique or is 3 enough of both of those?

I'm playing 20 lands, 4 Trops and 2 arbors. the 2nd Arbor and land count are up to personal preference. If you don't expect many wastelands and see alot of blue, Jaces are the way to go. I see tribal and wastelands, so I play 20 lands and 2 arbors to be on the safe side. I'd run the 4th Ponder over the 4th Clique.

My land base is:
4 Trops
2 Tundra/Volc
1 Taiga/Savanna
4 Misty
4 Green Fetch
1 Blue Fetch (Optional)
2 Arbor (2nd optional)
1 Island
1 Forest

This has been rock solid for me. Good luck!

[Jigga_Tech]

Hey fellas,

I might be settling on the UGr NO list that has been going around lately for my next few tournaments, including SCG Indi. When I saw Todd Anderson's list, I really liked it. One thing that did bother me, however, is that the deck has few ways to actually protect the combo. Yes, mental misstep is amazing, but it can't protect NO. So my question is...what is the purpose of MM in this deck?

Team America plays MM to protect its creatures from StP and PtE, control decks play it to counter early vials, lackeys, etc. Because Progenitus is the main path to victory, does the list warrant 4 MM? It does not stop FoW, Daze, counterspell, etc. Essentially, I feel like the inclusion of MM does not help the NO strategy. Don't get me wrong, MM is insane and I do believe it has a place in this deck, I'm just not sure if 4 is the right number. Is 4 FoW and 3 Clique enough to resolve NO?


In a way MM does protect your NO plan because I use it to protect my mana accelerators from removal. They are key to your speed and you need them around to sac to NO.

[Final Fortune]

Hey fellas,

I might be settling on the UGr NO list that has been going around lately for my next few tournaments, including SCG Indi. When I saw Todd Anderson's list, I really liked it. One thing that did bother me, however, is that the deck has few ways to actually protect the combo. Yes, mental misstep is amazing, but it can't protect NO. So my question is...what is the purpose of MM in this deck?

Team America plays MM to protect its creatures from StP and PtE, control decks play it to counter early vials, lackeys, etc. Because Progenitus is the main path to victory, does the list warrant 4 MM? It does not stop FoW, Daze, counterspell, etc. Essentially, I feel like the inclusion of MM does not help the NO strategy. Don't get me wrong, MM is insane and I do believe it has a place in this deck, I'm just not sure if 4 is the right number. Is 4 FoW and 3 Clique enough to resolve NO?

MM counters Spell Pierce, but besides that just countering 1 drops buys you time to ramp up and resolve NO - which is all you care about. MM is like Daze on crack, it sets the opponent back without costing you a land drop. MM isnt really there to help you resolve NO - that's Clique's job.

[adamt]

I posted this in the SCG forum for Todd's article and thought it'd get more feedback here


I've been testing out Pelakka Wurm in the Finks slot as a NO target as they can race Prog with direct damage ot stp But 7 life and trampling usually trumps most aggro strategies (ie burn you out or Price of Progress). Sure, Zoo will path/STP it but you've gained the life which they have trouble dealing with.

I've also moved up to 20 land as I found myself always searching for lands with bs/ponders, but I'm not sure about the 10 fetches over other duals (volc or basic mtn).

Surgical Extraction seems good but I've found that Loaming Shaman has been working with GSZ.. although not for the turn 1/2 Dredge going offs. With red you also gain ways to get rid of bridges by bolting your own creatures (instead of having to wait until you can NO). If you were still running white, an enlightened tutor board worked well (much like L0rd was running on MTGO).

Misstep protects the creatures you want to sac to NO most of the time, which is more of a problem I've found than control decks countering your NO. You have Cliques to clear the way for counters usually, but getting your Dryad Arbor/Hierarch pathed/bolted/stp/innocent blood/etc is much harder to deal with as it stunts your mana growth.

in a more local meta (ie with more aggro) Firespouts have been backbreaking from the s/b against most aggro decks that just fold to it when your goyf lives through it

ive been toying with the idea of running birds in the hierarch slot as they can give you red... but I think i'd miss the exalted triggers when attacking with Cliques or a lone hierarch attacking through an Ensnaring Bridge

[Chikenbok]

Chikenbok is not Todd Anderson, just a lone magic player out there to win a GP.

I'm still not having any trouble tutoring up enough lands and I'm only running 17 + 1 Dryad Arbor. I mean hell, I got to put in 2 Jaces in those extra two land spots. Regarding the dredge matchup, Misstep hits all of the cards they need to set up a turn 1-2 kill (Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Careful Study, Breakthrough at x = 0, etc, etc, etc and also protects our own hands against cabal therapy).

Misstep as a whole is really just what this deck needed to take it over the top - we don't have to pick up lands for daze, we don't have to care about removal and for those games when you're simply riding a triple exalted clique to the hilt, it doesn't hurt to have a free counter for StP/Bolt. My SB includes a 1/2 split of firespout and pyroclasms.

[adamt]

Lately I've been finding that I'm boarding out the Ponders in practically any matchup where I'm bringing in more than 3/4 cards and it's almost always for Spell Pierces. So much so that I've started testing them in the main in place of Ponders and I've not been too upset with it as this deck is pretty much running 4 of every spell (and the Ponders don't help you get rid of Prog in hand anyhow).

I'm still finding Merfolk to be a tough matchup where I assume it will be rough g1 and g2/g3 I can sometimes edge out by REB/Bolting LOA's. I'm tempted to try and fit a Selkie in the board again as Merfolk is going to see a resurgence with MM, maybe for the Spell Pierce.

My current list
(yes I know it's 61 cards.. I'll prolly cut a fire/ice or go back down to 19 lands since missteps counter stifles/creature removal on DryadArbor)

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Natural Order
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Fire/Ice
2 Spell Pierce
1 Progenitus

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga


Sideboard
1 Pelakka Wurm (if I have 4 mana to GSZ for finks, I can NO for this)
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Spell Pierce
1 Trygon Predator
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pyroblast
1 Terastodon
2 Krosan Grip

[Chikenbok]

Lately I've been finding that I'm boarding out the Ponders in practically any matchup where I'm bringing in more than 3/4 cards and it's almost always for Spell Pierces. So much so that I've started testing them in the main in place of Ponders and I've not been too upset with it as this deck is pretty much running 4 of every spell (and the Ponders don't help you get rid of Prog in hand anyhow).

I'm still finding Merfolk to be a tough matchup where I assume it will be rough g1 and g2/g3 I can sometimes edge out by REB/Bolting LOA's. I'm tempted to try and fit a Selkie in the board again as Merfolk is going to see a resurgence with MM, maybe for the Spell Pierce.

My current list
(yes I know it's 61 cards.. I'll prolly cut a fire/ice or go back down to 19 lands since missteps counter stifles/creature removal on DryadArbor)

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Natural Order
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Fire/Ice
2 Spell Pierce
1 Progenitus

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga


Sideboard
1 Pelakka Wurm (if I have 4 mana to GSZ for finks, I can NO for this)
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Spell Pierce
1 Trygon Predator
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Firespout
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pyroblast
1 Terastodon
2 Krosan Grip

In all honesty I'd probably just cut the basic mountain. I've been doing so much testing and haven't once had a problem with running fewer lands. I understand the move away from ponder but sometimes, when you really need to find an answer, ponder can provide it. I think its better keeping the spierces in the board and bringing them in when you need em. Or just leave in the ponders but cut the fire//ice slots for pierce.

[Chikenbok]

I just cut out the two Jaces MD and put one into the board. I've decided to replace em with 2 Spell Pierces. This now moves the counter suite up to 4 MM, 4 Force of Will, and 2 Spierce. In all honesty what I usually find myself protecting against that's not something that MM hits is a Hymn. Pierce also hits much harder against a combo player and if we can wait a turn to go off we can leave a blue mana up for the pierces - Will be testing the new build out tonight.

[adamt]

according to the SCG "i scoop to my friends" legacy tournaments the meta with Mental Misstep is all about standstill, but from the Bazaar of Moxen and the Jupiter Games 40 dual tournament this past weekend there were a number of NO Zenith Bant decks top 8'ing.

Tinefol from these forums placed 5th out of 630 players with this list:

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard
3 Path to Exile
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Serenity

while the Jupiter Games tournie had this list from Taylor Pratt:
Main Deck
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasaili Pridemage
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Natural Order
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Terastadon
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

and an interesting no NO and no FOW SFM Zenith list from James Rynkiewicz:

Main Deck
4 Brainstorm
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sylvan Library
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trygan Predator

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Mental Misstep
2 Krosan Grip

plz discuss =)

[ivanpei]

Misstep IMO should be a 4 off, that card is nuts. Also not a fan of stoneforge + jace + NO all in one deck. We need to concentrate on 1 thing and pull it off consistently. The sfm lists need more dudes while the NO lists need more protection. Mixing it up seems to make the deck slightly more inconsistent. Having said that, any deck with brainstorm, force, misstep, gsz and goyfs will do well. The consistency and efficiency of these cards just make it such a potent combination.

Also llawan in both boards is a good call. I'd probably play 3 since theres just too many damn folk decks.

[Tinefol]

Didn't run SFM for this very reason. 2 jittes are okay though. 4th misstep is probably okay, and while Jace is good, you're dilluting your game plan. Running more than four 4cc in a deck with a low land count is bad, and your four 4cc should be Orders. Run four Clique! They're superb at protection and they laugh at these Standstills.

[ivanpei]

Grats man! Great job! Clique in response to Standstill would be a pretty funny play. But would you hold back clique to be cast EOT or would you be running it out there during the draw step?

[Tinefol]

It really depends on the situation. Sometimes, its correct to drop it on your turn, sometimes you hold it until EOT, sometimes you cast it on draw phase or in response to something. I've done all of these and there's no strict rule, because it depends so much on a game state and what you're playing against.

Remember the Mistbind Clique from Extended/Standard, you're not set in stone to cast it during opponent's upkeep.

I probably should also provide some situation where every descision is correct.

1) Casting it on your turn. Your opponent is tapped out and you're quite sure he's holding a bomb/answer and can have the means of protecting it. I've done this against Sneak & Show deck to strip the creature/SNT he's been holding. He could have brainstormed in response if he weren't tapped out.
This also can be done, if you have the spare mana and you need to see the opponent's hand to know what you should you do with your mana further.

2) Casting it on your draw phase. Your opponent is low on cards, and its profitable to check/strip his hand out of business spells before he gets to cast them and you're sure he isn't able to protect it. I've done this against Maverick to get rid of GSZ.

3) Casting it in response to something. Like in response to Standstill. Or in response to Thoughtseize or Ritual chain to strip whatever business they have.

4) Casting it EOT. You don't expect anything relevant from them on this turn and just want to see if the path is clear for whatever you're going to play next turn or plan what you're going to do.

[crystalballer]

I've done a lot of research on this deck type over the last 2 years i've been competing in legacy, and i played this deck a lot during the time when survival was at its peak. I even packed a 3/3 split of survival and NO because of their synergy. Since then i've moved onto New Horizons and Affinity favoring their resilience and versitility. I miss the days of cheating Prog into play turn 3 and now im starting to realize that there is enourmous potential now that the format is starting to slow down due to the increase in popularity of Standstill and Mental Misstep. I came up with 2 new lists and also have a card that could potentially send this deck over the edge. First the decklists.

NO BANT

//CREATURES//
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Fauna Shaman
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Tarmogoyf

//ENCHANTMENTS//
1x Sylvan Library

//INSTANTS//
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares

//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
1x Progenitus

//SORCERIES//
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order

//BASIC LANDS//
1x Forest
1x Island

//LANDS//
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

//LAND CREATURES//
2x Dryad Arbor


~//SIDEBOARD//~
//ARTIFACTS//
3x Pithing Needle

//CREATURES//
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Xantid Swarm

//ENCHANTMENTS//
2x Threads of Disloyalty

//INSTANTS//
2x Krosan Grip

//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
3x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Vendilion Clique

As for the Mainboard i play Sylvan Library for the turn before you go off you pay 8 life to net you extra Force fodder and counter protection, at the very worst during long games you can abuse Rhox War Monks life gain by drawing an extra card a turn, i've never had any moments where the life loss was the reason why i lost the match. Also fairly accepted amoung forums and pro's the singletons Fauna Shaman and Scryb Ranger. Aside from that nothing out of the ordinary in the main. The board is heavy against Merfolk... Eff merfolk man, everyone has built that deck because it is pretty much the easiest deck to win with. So i side 3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, and a lone Cold-Eyed Selkie for long matches. You can also board in the Threads of Disloyalty but i mainly have those in there to steal enemy Goyfs and Pridemages lol and use them to cast Natural Order. I run the singleton Xanthid Swarm in here against decks like Team America and New Horizons so they can't in response ruin your day. Pithing Needle in here for CounterTop.

I also saw someone else suggest a BUG version of Natural Order that included Thoughtseize. I really like this idea despite the popularity of Mental Misstep, I think that running 4 of them in the main and siding maybe 3 Duress to clear the way of problems seems favorable. the only issue i ran into drawing up a list for BUG was it loses Rhox War Monk, Qasali Pridemage, and Knight of the Reliquary if you run it. So your left with running fewer green creatures limiting your toolbox/silver bullet style with Green Sun's Zenith... despite losing those things i discovered a card that i think singlehandedly put this deck over the edge!

SILHANA LEDGEWALKER!!! it has troll shroud and you can Green Sun's Zenith it up the turn before you go off! the only things that beat that are Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed but those are easily dealt with by boarding in Pithing Needle as most creatures in your deck are already vulnerable to those cards. Here's the BUG NO list:

//CREATURES//
2x Birds of Paradise
1x Fauna Shaman
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Silhana Ledgewalker
2x Tarmogoyf

//ENCHANTMENTS//
1x Sylvan Library

//INSTANTS//
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
2x Spell Pierce

//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
1x Progenitus
2x Vendilion Clique

//SORCERIES//
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Thoughtseize
4x Natural Order

//BASIC LANDS//
1x Forest
1x Island

//LANDS//
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills


~//SIDEBOARD//~
//ARTIFACTS//
3x Pithing Needle

//CREATURES//
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Xantid Swarm

//ENCHANTMENTS//
2x Threads of Disloyalty

//INSTANTS//
2x Krosan Grip

//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
3x Llawan, Cephalid Empress

//SORCERIES//
3x Duress

[tsabo_tavoc]

SILHANA LEDGEWALKER!!! it has troll shroud and you can Green Sun's Zenith it up the turn before you go off! the only things that beat that are Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed but those are easily dealt with by boarding in Pithing Needle as most creatures in your deck are already vulnerable to those cards.

Welcome to the Source! I would play Slippery Bogle if I needed such effect, as it pitches to FOW!

Other than that, your lists seem to be too combo-centric but only have 4 Brainstorm + 0-2 Clique to shuffle back Progenitus.

[crystalballer]

Welcome to the Source! I would play Slippery Bogle if I needed such effect, as it pitches to FOW!

Other than that, your lists seem to be too combo-centric but only have 4 Brainstorm + 0-2 Clique to shuffle back Progenitus.

Yeah I run the Fauna Shamans in both lists as well. The idea of NO lists is to cheat Prog into play by turn 3 or 4 with force backup. The reason for the Silhana Ledgewalker is to prevent them from spot removing your green sac b4 u try and cast NO. Most lists run the same if not less Prog shuffle outlets than my lists...

I do like Slippery Boggle over Silhana Ledgewalker though due to I costing 1 less and pitchng to force. Idk I always thought one of the bigger problems was keeping green creatures alive before casting NO. Zoo seems to have an inherent ability to disrupt this deck to the point where you can be sitting on a couple NO without a green creature to sac... I think Slippery Boggle should be an extremely useful 1 of in the new NO decks.

[gypsy]

have a local tournament here this weekend, testing out NO for providence, wat does everyone think on the RUG vs Bant versions of the deck?

[Jigga_Tech]

have a local tournament here this weekend, testing out NO for providence, wat does everyone think on the RUG vs Bant versions of the deck?

I was actually wondering the same thing. With less then one week away from Providence I am still undecided. I have always liked red for burn due to swords being dead in some matches. Part of me thinks Bant will be better over all but my gut is telling me to stick with RUG. Red does have the better sideboard with reb/pyroblasts for merfolk. Here is the lists I've been testing, pretty standard lists.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice//Qasali Pridemage

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills/Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island/Tundra
1 Taiga/Savannah
1 Scalding Tarn/Mountain//Flooded Strand/Plains

I am debating on the 9th fetch or the 3rd basic. Having the basic in there just seems bad since its your off color and you really want the double blue for clique and double green for NO. My only concern is getting my red source wasted against Merfolk when I really need the red source for my blasts.

The sideboard is up in the air. I know I want to play some graveyard hate. What do you guys think is the best graveyard hate to run. Im thinking either Tormod's Crypt or Surgical Extraction.

Let me know what you guys think.

[Tinefol]

Looks totally like my list, but where the hell's Dryad Arbor? And you need 18 lands minimum (and Arbor doesn't count)

[Jigga_Tech]

Looks totally like my list, but where the hell's Dryad Arbor? And you need 18 lands minimum (and Arbor doesn't count)

@Tinefol: I had been testing the RUG version that Reid Duke and Dave Nolan played at SCG 5K but updated it with Mental Missteps. Then I saw your list from BoM and your deck tech and thats why I am now torn between RUG and Bant versions of this deck. I wasn't trying to take any credit for the deck, sorry if it seemed that way. Im just trying to get everybodys input on which they think is better RUG or Bant for GP Providence next week.

I also updated my list, it does have 1 forest 1 island 1 dryad arbor (19 lands total). I was distracted by a 4 year old when I posted originaly. What is your take on the 9th fetch vs the 3rd color basic land Tinefol?

@ everybody: So what is everybody's opinion on RUG vs Bant for this deck?

[Tinefol]

I'd rather have a basic land. It comes handy and you really have a need for either of the 3 at times.

While blasts are good, I think STP is that >>> Bolt in the maindeck. It really depends on a meta, but I think you're better off with white at the GP.