Knightaclysm

[Eldarion]

INTRODUCTION:

The aim of this thread is to discuss and develop a competitive deck based on a current casual design. The deck as it stands is a knight-themed white weenie variant that plays an aggro-control game rather than pure aggro. The environment I currently play in is casual, with the occasional tournament that leans heavily toward the lower end of the budget spectrum, so my aim is to create a fun, synergistic build that, while at home in casual, has a decent chance when it goes toe to toe with a tourney-level deck. While I could probably just construct and tune the deck for my current meta, I'd like to request the help of the more experienced deck builders here to come up with something that flies in more than just my little corner of the world.:smile:

Decklist:



Lands (20):

6 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Wasteland
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Creatures (18):

4 Student of Warfare
4 Figure of Destiny
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Silver Knight

Instants and Sorceries (17):
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Condemn
4 Tithe
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Cataclysm

Artifacts and Enchantments (6):
1 Rule of Law
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 CoP: Red
2 Serenity
2 Sacred Ground
1 Ivory Mask
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormod's Crypt




Latest Revised Tested List:



Lands (20):


6 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Wasteland
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All


Creatures (18):

4 Student of Warfare
1 Mother of Runes
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Silver Knight
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants and Sorceries (14):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tithe
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Cataclysm

Artifacts and Enchantments (9):
1 Rule of Law
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Mox Diamond

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Serenity
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormod's Crypt



Testing Notes:

Mirran Crusader is a good finisher, but the deck needs more warm bodies earlier against aggro. Being bolt-proof, Silver Knight fits the role best despite being a lackluster beater.

Mox Diamond works like a beauty, synergizing with Tithe, KotR, and Cataclysm and allowing for Rule of Law or Ghostly Prison on turn 2, which is very good against combo and aggro, respectively. You don't really want multiples tho, so 3 is enough.

Aether Vial doesn't work too well since Mox Diamond is more useful, hence the one you want to have at least 3 of, and there are usually more important targets for Enlightened Tutor. Same thing goes for Ancient Den - it's something you almost never want to tutor for.

You want to see multiple Flagstones in a game, if only to buff KotR, so the correct number is 4.



Strategy:

Against aggro, the deck wants to cast cheap threats that force the opponent to either use removal or commit heavily to the board in an attempt to race. It then wants to drop one of its three-drop creatures and then Cataclysm to seal the win. In cases where the aggro is explosive enough to kill by turn 3-4, the plan is to stall with strategic removal long enough to tutor up a silver bullet answer with Enlightened Tutor (Ghostly Prison, Rule of Law) and then mop up their crew with Cataclysm, after which we can cast our beaters and go for the win.

Against control, we want to draw their answers out using cheap threats, hopefully resolving a Knight of the Reliquary, which then tutors for a Boseiju and allows us a foolproof Cataclysm. This is usually enough to win the game.

Against combo, Enlightened Tutor serves to find an answer, usually Rule of Law for storm-based builds and any other combos that want to cast multiple spells in a single turn.


Strengths:

The toolbox options of Knight of the Reliquary and Enlightened Tutor allow a wide variety of answers to be played. The mana costs also make Counterbalance a very iffy proposition, and the presence of double strikers in the same deck with Jitte and SofI make for a very fast clock if unanswered.

Weaknesses:

Play needs to be a lot more strategic than your typical white weenie, and decks that win on turn 2-3 are a bit of a challenge to find answers for, as well as decks that drop Progenitus.


Individual Cards:

Flagstones of Trokair: A key card that combos well with Cataclysm and can be abused by Knight of the Reliquary for library thinning and pumping itself.

Wasteland: Tutorable with KotR and is great after Cataclysm, especially with Crucible in play (Wastelock).

Boseiju, Who Shelters All: Cataclysm insurance

Student of Warfare: Starts beating turn 2, trumps Nacatl, Kird Ape, et al, and demands an answer or eventually deals 8 per turn even without equipment.

Figure of Destiny: Less likely to fully level than Student, but 4/4 is fine especially for a post-Cata beater.

Knight of the Reliquary: The deck's main threat, both loves and enables Cataclysm

Mirran Crusader: Yes, it's a new card that isn't even out yet, but I've tried Skyhunter Skirmisher with Jitte before, and that was the bomb if you could pull it off. This is less fragile and is a better threat solo, though it's a bit less evasive.

Knight of Meadowgrain/Silver Knight: Ironically for white, the 2-mana spot seems to be the weakest in this deck, though these do help against red. Hopefully, suggestions or future expansions will remedy this.

Swords to Plowshares/Condemn: While PtE might be a more beatdown option, it helps the opponent recover lands after a Cataclysm, which we don't want to do, hence these 2.

Tithe: Thins the deck, ensures you have mana for Cataclysm recovery and to drop KotR, just makes the deck do what it does more consistently.

Enlightened Tutor: The toolbox of toolboxes.

Cataclysm: King of sweepers - it doesn't matter if they rely on lands, creatures, artifacts, or enchantments. And it deals with planeswalkers too, thanks to the fact that it specifies what you get to retain. Kinda sucks against Progenitus tho, unless you have a Ghostly Prison down as well.



Sideboard cards: still very much undecided on these, and suggestions are more than welcome.

That's the gist of it for now. Hope to hear from you guys.

[AlterEgo]

Just some thoughts, not fully thought through:

4 Flagstones of Trokair - I think four is too much, 2-3 seem okay.

1 Wasteland - can't decide if I'd want more of these.

4 Student of Warfare - very mana hungry
4 Figure of Destiny

3 Knight of the Reliquary - needs four!

2 Condemn - Why not Path to Exile? You don't go for mana denial - and once you Cataclysm, that one land is gone, too


Addition:
Stoneforge Mystic?
AEther Vial?
Leyline of Sanctity instead of Ivory Mask

[luckme10]

There's a lot of card choices here. Personally, if I were to chose a creature to run that's not a knight, I'd also choose Mother of Runes over Figure of Destiny due to the need for added protection and evasion abilities; the beaters will thank you for this. Let's talk about what you're trying to do with this list. With 6 enchantments, artifacts, does this deck have enough variety to justify running cataclysm - especially considering the lost opportunity cost of running a strong synergy card like Knight Exemplar with other Wrath effects, achieving similar results.

Overall, I think this deck feels torn between using strong beaters and using tribal. For competitive purposes, if you want to go the singleton, beater cataclysm route, I think there are better cards to chose from than limiting oneself to aggro tribal. Show and Tell decks seem to dedicate themselves more to achieve this route. If you want to go the knight route, midrange aggro/ vial weenie probably a better speciality. Look at it this way, what advantages do knight tribal offer when you're not running the card, Knight Exemplar, that synergies the archtype?

[Eldarion]

You're probably right on the Flagstones as I sometimes run out of plains in long games. Will try to cut to 3. Any less might mess up the synergy with Cataclysm tho.

As to Wasteland, yeah, I sometimes want more but my spells really want colored mana.

The students are fine as 3/3 most of the time - they either trade or get removed (or get equipped with a Jitte :cool:). I like the idea though of being able to fully level them post-Cata, when the opponent is harder up for answers.

Ditto on the Reliquaries - I actually play with 4, but with the Mirran Crusader coming in, I felt really tempted to up the chance of getting a Crusader to pick up a Jitte or SoFI. :smile: Dunno if I want more than 6 3-drop critters though.

I've been thinking of Path to Exile, but I usually like to reserve removal for after I Cataclysm so I can take whatever creature he has left. Path to exile here would mean he gets help recovering from Cataclysm. Not that I'm too happy with Condemn either though. :frown:

Stoneforge mystic is probably the answer to my 2-drop dilemma, as well as Tarmogoyf, if I could be less pigheaded about trying to make it all/mostly knights. Since I've gone ahead and stuck in FoD, though, maybe I might as well. Probably won't hop on the goyf bandwagon though.

Aether vial would be cool, though I'm not sure what I'd take out so I could include it. Good catch on the Leyline. I also figured Runed Halo would be a good stopper for my Progenitus problem. Think it's good enough to have main deck though?

Thanks for the suggestions! Hope I can playtest them soon.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Cut Silver Knight for Deft Duelist.

[Eldarion]

There's a lot of card choices here. Personally, if I were to chose a creature to run that's not a knight, I'd also choose Mother of Runes over Figure of Destiny due to the need for added protection and evasion abilities; the beaters will thank you for this. Let's talk about what you're trying to do with this list. With 6 enchantments, artifacts, does this deck have enough variety to justify running cataclysm - especially considering the lost opportunity cost of running a strong synergy card like Knight Exemplar with other Wrath effects, achieving similar results.

Overall, I think this deck feels torn between using strong beaters and using tribal. For competitive purposes, if you want to go the singleton, beater cataclysm route, I think there are better cards to chose from than limiting oneself to aggro tribal. Show and Tell decks seem to dedicate themselves more to achieve this route. If you want to go the knight route, midrange aggro/ vial weenie probably a better speciality. Look at it this way, what advantages do knight tribal offer when you're not running the card, Knight Exemplar, that synergies the archtype?




You're right about Mother of Runes being better in a fully committed, nontribal aggro deck, but in some ways my 1-drops are actually removal bait - against fellow aggro I want them to stall their offense or eat up some of the removal, while they pressure the control deck to come up with answers, hopefully allowing more breathing room for my later plays.

Good catch on the division of strategies - the earliest evolution of this deck is actually Cata Armor: the game plan was to drop a weenie, drop an Empyrial Armor, and cast a Cataclysm, hopefully leaving the opponent staring at a 4/4 or a 6/6 with an empty board. When equipment came in, it became a good solution to the usual answer for Empyrial Armor - swords/bolt/whathaveyou, and you get 2-for-1'd. The basics of the deck remained the same though: the weenies let you have enough critters in the deck to overcome removal and counters (which is the trouble with Show and Tell type decks - they overcommit on their threats and get into trouble when their enabler spell gets blocked) and the pump effects allowed what few critters you had on the field to give you board presence while avoiding overcommitting into board sweepers. Cataclysm basically just combines the Wrath of God you want against swarming aggro with the mana choke you want to apply on control, along with the artifact sweep you want against affinity and artifact-heavy control. Ditto for the enchanter decks. The upshot of this is that the resultant deck isn't really the aggro that white weenie typically is, but rather an aggro-control one that sacrifices speed for versatility and adaptability.

What has changed though (relatively recently for a dinosaur like me) is that with Wizards finally printing knights with tribal synergies, the knight deck has a chance to become more than just the collection of some of white's best cheap beaters that it used to be. However, I think the speed and threat density of the Knight tribe still isn't strong enough to warrant going full-on tribal with the risk of running into board sweepers and sacrificing utility answer slots for creatures. This means I'll probably stick to the singleton beater route with Cata since I think there are enough strong, relatively cheap beaters that happen to be knights - Reliquary and Mirran Crusader - to enable the strategy.

Regarding maximizing Cataclysm, though I think the Wrath/Geddon combo it presents is enough to justify it, I also use 3-4 tutors for those 6 artifacts and enchantments, as well as Flagstones, along with a sideboard full of artifact and enchantment answers, so I think there's enough justification for Cata even if you look at it solely from a board-versatility-after-Cata perspective. :)

[Eldarion]

Cut Silver Knight for Deft Duelist.

That shroud has me tempted, but the blue mana doesn't look too good. Main reason I cut Rafiq of the Many was to simplify the mana requirements.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

Be that the case, should you decide to run Vial, I have a three for you.

Knight Of Dawn

[luckme10]

You're right about Mother of Runes being better in a fully committed, nontribal aggro deck, but in some ways my 1-drops are actually removal bait - against fellow aggro I want them to stall their offense or eat up some of the removal, while they pressure the control deck to come up with answers, hopefully allowing more breathing room for my later plays.

Good catch on the division of strategies - the earliest evolution of this deck is actually Cata Armor: the game plan was to drop a weenie, drop an Empyrial Armor, and cast a Cataclysm, hopefully leaving the opponent staring at a 4/4 or a 6/6 with an empty board. When equipment came in, it became a good solution to the usual answer for Empyrial Armor - swords/bolt/whathaveyou, and you get 2-for-1'd. The basics of the deck remained the same though: the weenies let you have enough critters in the deck to overcome removal and counters (which is the trouble with Show and Tell type decks - they overcommit on their threats and get into trouble when their enabler spell gets blocked) and the pump effects allowed what few critters you had on the field to give you board presence while avoiding overcommitting into board sweepers. Cataclysm basically just combines the Wrath of God you want against swarming aggro with the mana choke you want to apply on control, along with the artifact sweep you want against affinity and artifact-heavy control. Ditto for the enchanter decks. The upshot of this is that the resultant deck isn't really the aggro that white weenie typically is, but rather an aggro-control one that sacrifices speed for versatility and adaptability.

What has changed though (relatively recently for a dinosaur like me) is that with Wizards finally printing knights with tribal synergies, the knight deck has a chance to become more than just the collection of some of white's best cheap beaters that it used to be. However, I think the speed and threat density of the Knight tribe still isn't strong enough to warrant going full-on tribal with the risk of running into board sweepers and sacrificing utility answer slots for creatures. This means I'll probably stick to the singleton beater route with Cata since I think there are enough strong, relatively cheap beaters that happen to be knights - Reliquary and Mirran Crusader - to enable the strategy.

Regarding maximizing Cataclysm, though I think the Wrath/Geddon combo it presents is enough to justify it, I also use 3-4 tutors for those 6 artifacts and enchantments, as well as Flagstones, along with a sideboard full of artifact and enchantment answers, so I think there's enough justification for Cata even if you look at it solely from a board-versatility-after-Cata perspective. :)

First of all, thank you Eldarion. This is once of the most well thought out responses I've ever had the pleasure to read. While I may disagree with some choices, you've wonderfully addressed all my concerns and even gave some history into understanding not just deck choices, but its directional evolution. I'll get back to you when I'm not so charmed by this charismatic response..

[Eldarion]

Be that the case, should you decide to run Vial, I have a three for you.

Knight Of Dawn

LOL. Funny thing - that was actually the first knight I used with this deck, back in the day. I was still using Empyrial Armor then. Had to cut it when I had to balance Timmy coolness with a bit of mana curving, and two mana was hard to keep open when you were casting other stuff, but you're right - if I go the vial route, this would be right up there with Mirran Crusader. And I still have a playset of em somewhere. :) First thing I want to try is that Stoneforge Mystic though. She may not be a knight, but she gives Mirran Crusader some pretty toys to hack away with.

[luckme10]

In the meantime, what about the following:
Knight of the White Orchid >Tithe
Vial> knight of the meadowgrain/silver knight
Same number of knights... still have CA and deck thinning. vial knight of the white orchid like playing tithe against fetchlands.



Absolute Law> CoP: Red

[Eldarion]

In the meantime, what about the following:
Knight of the White Orchid >Tithe
Vial> knight of the meadowgrain/silver knight
Same number of knights... still have CA and deck thinning. vial knight of the white orchid like playing tithe against fetchlands.



Absolute Law> CoP: Red

Might try that though I initially didn't want Orchid knights since they put the land in play and you like to keep a land in your hand to lay after cataclysm. Tithe also makes one-land hands more than playable. Absolute Law looks interesting though Red Deck Wins is big in my meta and that deck sends its burn to the face.

[Eldarion]

First of all, thank you Eldarion. This is once of the most well thought out responses I've ever had the pleasure to read. While I may disagree with some choices, you've wonderfully addressed all my concerns and even gave some history into understanding not just deck choices, but its directional evolution. I'll get back to you when I'm not so charmed by this charismatic response..

LOL. Thanks for the compliment. I know some of my card choices aren't optimal since this started as a pet tribal deck, but most of the non-knight cards actually went in there after a good bit of testing in my own little meta, and the knights I ended up picking are actually the leanest and the meanest around since I've tested with all the rest. You might want to try the deck out, see how it runs. Though it's pretty straightforward and you can play it to unwind from testing whatever tricksy stack you're currently brewing, some things are easier to see in actual play.

[Eldarion]

Revised List for testing:



Lands (20):

7 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Wasteland
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Creatures (17):

4 Student of Warfare
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants and Sorceries (14):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tithe
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Cataclysm

Artifacts and Enchantments (10):
1 Rule of Law
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Serenity
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tormod's Crypt


Thoughts, anyone?

[Nameless Two]

Maybe a Pithing Needle maindeck to fight off opposing Vials? If your opponent has an Aether Vial he/she could develop an army again. Or you could run Seal of Cleansing I suppose if you don't want to cut off your own Aether Vial.

Since you run green you could use Oxidize for that aswell I suppose.

Running 4 Students of Warfare and 3 Figure of Destiny seems to be a bit overdoing it. You'll often end up with 2 of these mana sinks while you'd be much better off having just the Student. So maybe cut out another Figure or all three of them for2 Mother of Runes who could protect your Knights of the Reliquary (which I really like in here) and what should be 4 Mirran Crusaders (don't want to be low on threats).

You already stated that you used your one drops to stall off your opponents/eat removal. Although Mother of Runes might not seem like a threat to you, it does feel like it if there is one on the opposing side of the board. They typically eat any removal your opponent has rightaway. On the other hand, if they don't ... You now have a useful creature to help protect your meaner knights.

I really like the deck. I hope it works out for you :)

[ReAnimator]

I'd probably want 1 or 2 of the white artifact land. It can work with an enlightened tutor, and it works well with cataclysm, if you don't have an equipment out.

I'll echo what someone else brought up above, i'd love to see Knight Exemplar in here, it is just so cool with Cata or in multiples.

If RDWins is huge in your area, why not throw in some Kor Fire Walkers into the board? not a knight but certainly ridiculous against that deck.

[Eldarion]

@Nameless Two:

My out against opposing artifacts and enchantments is a singleton Oblivion Ring, though I'd love to find room for a Pithing Needle maindeck.

Yup, Mother of Runes for Figures of Destiny seems to be the sensible choice, never mind how much my inner TImmy howls at the substitution, and I suppose 8 3cc critters isn't too much if you're running vial. And yes, Knights of the Reliquary are the bomb here, coming down 6/6 or better post-cata usually. :)

Thanks for the suggestions; glad you like the deck, and hope you can help me test it, see how/if it works in your meta.

@ReAnimator

That singleton Ancient Den sounds like a great idea, though ideally I'd have an Aether vial with a few counters on it by the time I cataclysm.

Sadly, Cata's board sweep is sacrificial in wording, so Knight Exemplar wouldn't be able to help preserve your horde against it. It is great in multiples, but I don't think tribal knights have hit critical mass yet for Legacy. I may be wrong - that accorder paladin looks interesting, for one - but there just don't seem to be enough lords or synergy for a successful tribal legacy deck. I mean, look at how many lords merfolk have, never mind the explosive synergies of elves and goblins. Even the fae, with their spellstutter-bitterblossom-mistbind mojo, don't seem to work as a tribal legacy deck (though I'm brewing something that might help change that. ;) ) Maybe in Standard, though . . .

Kor Firewalkers are an option, as are a good number of other critters, like Burrenton Forge-Tender, but I'm thinking I want to keep my sideboard as artifacts and enchantments since they benefit from the MD enlightened tutors and creatures would take up space, needing multiples to be effective.

[muscleb]

So I am not sure if why this deck goes tribal, I mean I can't see any lords in the list. Aren't there better white weenies out there for a list like this, at least for a couple of the dudes. Anyway it looks kinda fun to play, but perhaps some card drawing could keep the gas up in the deck. Seeing that you already pack green and some lifegain(Jitte and the kithkin knight) perhaps Sylvan Library could improve the list. Might also put some Horizon Canopy in the list for some extra draw and love for KotR.

[Eldarion]

@muscleb:

The quick answer to the tribal question is that that's part of what makes it fun to play. :)

Specifics on the latest version I'mtesting below:

The original deck for this is actually what tribal was before the word tribal was coined to describe it: the very first tournament-winning white weenie played something like 8 pump knights and a set of white knights. Since all those knights are obsolete, this is an attempt to update that. With the current list though, I don't think there are any better white weenies on a power-to-cost basis: Mirran Crusader's 4 damage for 3 mana, never mind what happens when he picks up a jitte or a sword. There's a good reason Knight of the Reliquary's in a lot of competitive lists, and Cataclysm adds to that list of reasons. For the latest list posted above, with the changes I agreed to making in the thread, that leaves Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, and Student of Warfare. I don't think we need to discuss Mother of Runes and the Mystic since they see a lot of play in highly competitive decks. (In this particular deck Mystic's really useful for the uncounterable equipment.) Student of Warfare might be debatable, but it's pretty solid for being able to swing for 3 on turn 2 and trump nacatl, kird ape, and a lot of other early plays. Basically the deck wants to have creatures that can own the field after a Cataclysm and I think most of these do that or help the deck get to that goal.

About the Canopy, I'd use it if I didn't sometimes run out of plains for my fetches and tithes and flagstones. Sylvan library sounds like a good idea though. I'll see if I can't find a spot for that one.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Overall, I think this deck feels torn between using strong beaters and using tribal. For competitive purposes, if you want to go the singleton, beater cataclysm route, I think there are better cards to chose from than limiting oneself to aggro tribal. Show and Tell decks seem to dedicate themselves more to achieve this route. If you want to go the knight route, midrange aggro/ vial weenie probably a better speciality. Look at it this way, what advantages do knight tribal offer when you're not running the card, Knight Exemplar, that synergies the archtype?

What has changed though (relatively recently for a dinosaur like me) is that with Wizards finally printing knights with tribal synergies, the knight deck has a chance to become more than just the collection of some of white's best cheap beaters that it used to be. However, I think the speed and threat density of the Knight tribe still isn't strong enough to warrant going full-on tribal with the risk of running into board sweepers and sacrificing utility answer slots for creatures. This means I'll probably stick to the singleton beater route with Cata since I think there are enough strong, relatively cheap beaters that happen to be knights - Reliquary and Mirran Crusader - to enable the strategy.

I see the flavor going Knights, but I don't really see the synergy or point. If you're going to have nearly all Knights why not just go Knight Exemplar and Day of Judgement ... Vial in your 1cc 2cc Knights like Meadowgrain or Knight of the Holy Nimbus would actually be a great choice with Day. Prophyral Nodes would actually work pretty awesome with Exemplar with the indestructibility, too, and holding off against early rush tribals you'd rape them since you get to choose if tied in power.

When I think abusing Cataclysm I'd do it way different, I think of cards like Weathered Wayfarer or splashing red for Greater Gargadon to sacrafice permanents in response to clysm or removal, would also work with Trokair; Wayfarer would help you fetch for any land back in response, including wastes maze etc. Just my 2-cents

[Eldarion]

I see the flavor going Knights, but I don't really see the synergy or point. If you're going to have nearly all Knights why not just go Knight Exemplar and Day of Judgement ... Vial in your 1cc 2cc Knights like Meadowgrain or Knight of the Holy Nimbus would actually be a great choice with Day. Prophyral Nodes would actually work pretty awesome with Exemplar with the indestructibility, too, and holding off against early rush tribals you'd rape them since you get to choose if tied in power.


The main point in knights, specifically these knights, is actually deck space and game plan synergy. The main reason no one's playing knights competitively is that while in large numbers (especially with your Day of Judgment game plan) they can hold up very well against aggro, even own it, they get into trouble against combo and slow control - unlike goblins or elves, they're not fast enough to swarm the opponent on turn 2-3. In order to improve MUs with combo and control, we use tutors for things like Rule of Law against combo and we use Cataclysm (also tried Armageddon) against control (and to some extent combo). All these things take up slots and (along with StP et al) push creature count to 20 or less, which weakens our ability to be present on the board in large numbers. Note that the only competitive tribal deck that can work with around 20 creatures is Merfolk, and they've got much, much better synergies with 12-16 lords and counterspell backup to cover against board sweep on top of this.

With fewer creatures making it to the battlefield, we want what gets down to matter, by itself and without buddies for backup. Knight of the Reliquary seems pretty good at this, and so does Mirran Crusader, with its protection from goyf, rhox war monk, and a bunch of other black and green beaters and blockers. Never mind what an equipped Crusader looks like. Student also does pretty good early game, and if it's unchecked, it can go endgame as well.

Nodes of Porphyry I've played with and found a bit too slow. Yes, it works well with Exemplar, but that just puts even more pressure on dropping and keeping exemplar, and I'm just not too sure about a deck using a dozen 3-drops in Legacy - unless you want to cut reliquary and/or Crusader. I guess what I'm saying is the Exemplar looks great, and in Standard or Extended it probably is, but there's not enough knights in the 1-2 drop slot that are wow enough to stand on their own. That means that when exemplar comes down, the Zoo opponent just casts PtE/bolt/chain lightning/helix and goes on with the beatdown because their nacatls and apes and goyf are bigger than your 2-drops.



When I think abusing Cataclysm I'd do it way different, I think of cards like Weathered Wayfarer or splashing red for Greater Gargadon to sacrafice permanents in response to clysm or removal, would also work with Trokair; Wayfarer would help you fetch for any land back in response, including wastes maze etc. Just my 2-cents


Weathered wayfarer is replaced by Tithe in my deck as a faster way to do what it does, and it does something even when I have more lands than my opponent. Gargadon is less flexible than reliquary, and reliquary pulls out the Boseiju you want against control, and if I play both that mana base is going to need some tweaking to make sure I have red early enough.

[Nameless Two]

Nodes of Porphyry I've played with and found a bit too slow. Yes, it works well with Exemplar, but that just puts even more pressure on dropping and keeping exemplar, and I'm just not too sure about a deck using a dozen 3-drops in Legacy - unless you want to cut reliquary and/or Crusader.


Did you consider using Chrome Mox (maybe instead of Aether Vial) ? It allows you to play all those 3 drops on turn 2 or remove excess 3 drops if you don't need them. Works like a charm under Cataclysm. I don't really know if you have spare cards to put into the Mox often though... I guess this would ask for some Knight of the White Orchid action aswell though and maybe warp the deck into a different direction... which might not be what we want...

[Eldarion]

Did you consider using Chrome Mox (maybe instead of Aether Vial) ? It allows you to play all those 3 drops on turn 2 or remove excess 3 drops if you don't need them. Works like a charm under Cataclysm. I don't really know if you have spare cards to put into the Mox often though... I guess this would ask for some Knight of the White Orchid action aswell though and maybe warp the deck into a different direction... which might not be what we want...

Hmm, I didtry running mox diamonds once a long time ago, and I might try to revisit the idea, especially since they help the Reliquary in several ways (and I don't have Chrome Moxen). White orchid is actually improved on by the original - tithe. Imagine dropping a Mox Diamond, Tithing for 2 lands, dropping one, all in the first turn. Turn 2 you can drop reliquary at 3/3 or 4/4. AND things like Rule of Law and Ghostly prison can come in turn 2, which is great against combo/swarm. I like! Let's just hope I don't run out of land. :)

[Hopo]

Flagstones of Trokair: A key card that combos well with Cataclysm and can be abused by Knight of the Reliquary for library thinning and pumping itself.

Please note that you can't abuse Flagstones with Knight, since you need to sacrifice a plains or a forest.

[Nidd]

Please note that you can't abuse Flagstones with Knight, since you need to sacrifice a plains or a forest.
1. Resolve KotR.
2. Fetch Flagstones #1.
3. Fetch Flagstones #2.
4. ?????
5. Profit!

[Hopo]

1. Resolve KotR.
2. Fetch Flagstones #1.
3. Fetch Flagstones #2.
4. ?????
5. Profit!

That works, if that's what the writer meant. Not too superb play, though.

[Eldarion]

That works, if that's what the writer meant. Not too superb play, though.

It's sort of what I meant, except that with a full set of Flagstones you usually have 1 down by the time Reliquary comes in. This means you just activate KotR once to give it +3/+3 as opposed to spending 2 turns to give it a total of +4/+4. Not too bad, IMO. :)

[Eldarion]

Played a bunch of matches in my local meta. The version without Silver Knight does terribly against Boros. Against combo (storm, elf combo), dropping Rule of Law then Cataclysm is GG practically all the time.

Against just bout everything, Cataclysm wins you the game if you can cast it.

[gkraigher]

i like cataclysm a lot. It kills plainswalkers too, which is enormous.

anyway, this is the list I've come up with off the top of my head.

4 cataclysm
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
1 maze of ith

4 tithe
4 path to exile

4 knight of the white orchard
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmagoyf
4 terravore

4 mox diamond


4 flagstones of trokair
4 savannah
4 windswepth heath
1 forest
2 boseiju who shelters all
7 plains

[Eldarion]

i like cataclysm a lot. It kills plainswalkers too, which is enormous.

anyway, this is the list I've come up with off the top of my head.

4 cataclysm
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
1 maze of ith

4 tithe
4 path to exile

4 knight of the white orchard
4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmagoyf
4 terravore

4 mox diamond


4 flagstones of trokair
4 savannah
4 windswepth heath
1 forest
2 boseiju who shelters all
7 plains

Thanks! Glad to find someone else who sees the sweeping power Cataclysm has against control. :smile: The creature selection looks good - I'd try vore and goyf if I weren't fixated on running knights - but 9 Armageddon effects seems a bit much, especially as aggro and combo decks that outspeed us are the deck's major bane, and these decks get by on 1-2 land or kill by turn 3.

[Eldarion]

The latest riff:

Lands (20):

6 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Wasteland
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Ancient Den

Creatures (15):

3 Student of Warfare
3 Silver Knight
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants and Sorceries (13):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tithe
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Cataclysm

Artifacts and Enchantments (10):
1 Rule of Law
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Mox Diamond

Planeswalker (2):
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Serenity
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Path to Exile

Some notes:

With Mental Misstep around, Mox Diamond looks better than Aether Vial, in addition to opening the possibility of a turn 2 Rule of Law/Ghostly Prison. Done on the play, this can mean death for a combo deck/swarm deck respectively.

Basilisk Collar on a first striker is a thing of beauty.

Batterskull against aggro is good.

Elspeth rocks. :smile:

And yes, this deck loathes Qasali Pridemage. :(

[Iare]

Um, Steppe Lynx is one of the best one drops ever printed. It has obvious Synergy with Flagstones, Cataclysm and Tithe. The only question is to whether you can run him is if you can fit enough fetchlands in the deck (A minimum of 8 is required I have found). Jotun Grunt should be in this deck too since you aren't really abusing the fact creatures are Knights.

If you are going the Terravore route than you should be running Noble Hierarch to help power out your threats and speed up your clock.

[Eldarion]

Um, Steppe Lynx is one of the best one drops ever printed. It has obvious Synergy with Flagstones, Cataclysm and Tithe. The only question is to whether you can run him is if you can fit enough fetchlands in the deck (A minimum of 8 is required I have found). Jotun Grunt should be in this deck too since you aren't really abusing the fact creatures are Knights.

If you are going the Terravore route than you should be running Noble Hierarch to help power out your threats and speed up your clock.

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree about Steppe Lynx as a good one-drop (why did they ditch it in Zoo, though, just wondering) and on the synergy of Steppe Lynx with Flagstones and Tithe, but Cataclysm? - unless you mean Flagstones + Cata. :) In any case, getting to 4 mana is a bit trickier with lots of sac lands, and between speed and having versatile answers (Cataclysm, Elspeth), I usually go for versatility.

Your card choices, including Terravore and Noble Hierarch, seem to belong in the fast deck category, and I'm thinking they'd all be good in the same G/W aggro deck. But I usually go for toolbox answers and versatility when designing creature decks unless they pass what I call the Zoo test - can they outspeed Zoo? -if they can't, why not just play Zoo? That's why my creature choices are about creatures that are good on their own as opposed to being really fast or needing certain conditions in order to be good - Steppe Lynx and the need for a fistful of sac lands, Jotun Grunt and Terravore likewise, or at least an opponent also pitching sac lands like crazy. This opposed to Student of Warfare, which just needs a few installments of mana, or SFM, which brings its own toolbox, or KotR, which can grow itself and grab a toolbox besides. Mirran Crusader is happiest with a Jitte or Sword, but he's actually fine even without.

The only exception here is Silver Knight, which is admittedly a bit subpar, and yeah, he looks like he's best replaced with Jotun Grunt in a Goyf/Dredge-happy environment, or with Pridemage against a control-heavy or equipment-heavy field. Right now he's in there against burn and goblins, and he makes it safer for my other critters when playing against Zoo by drawing out the white removal.

[Iare]

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree about Steppe Lynx as a good one-drop (why did they ditch it in Zoo, though, just wondering) and on the synergy of Steppe Lynx with Flagstones and Tithe, but Cataclysm? - unless you mean Flagstones + Cata. :) In any case, getting to 4 mana is a bit trickier with lots of sac lands, and between speed and having versatile answers (Cataclysm, Elspeth), I usually go for versatility.

Your card choices, including Terravore and Noble Hierarch, seem to belong in the fast deck category, and I'm thinking they'd all be good in the same G/W aggro deck. But I usually go for toolbox answers and versatility when designing creature decks unless they pass what I call the Zoo test - can they outspeed Zoo? -if they can't, why not just play Zoo? That's why my creature choices are about creatures that are good on their own as opposed to being really fast or needing certain conditions in order to be good - Steppe Lynx and the need for a fistful of sac lands, Jotun Grunt and Terravore likewise, or at least an opponent also pitching sac lands like crazy. This opposed to Student of Warfare, which just needs a few installments of mana, or SFM, which brings its own toolbox, or KotR, which can grow itself and grab a toolbox besides. Mirran Crusader is happiest with a Jitte or Sword, but he's actually fine even without.

The only exception here is Silver Knight, which is admittedly a bit subpar, and yeah, he looks like he's best replaced with Jotun Grunt in a Goyf/Dredge-happy environment, or with Pridemage against a control-heavy or equipment-heavy field. Right now he's in there against burn and goblins, and he makes it safer for my other critters when playing against Zoo by drawing out the white removal.

Steppe Lynx can be a very bad topdeck and sometimes inconsistent, seeing as it requires a land drop to be useful. It is also extremely powerful and better than many people seem to think. All you really need to get out of him is 6 damage for him to be as good/better than any other 1 drop in the format. He is still used in fast Zoo lists that are full of burn and their best first turn play. You sometimes need to recover after a cataclysm and he will help by being cheap, same with Jotun Grunt ;)

Jotun Grunt helps shrink goyf's, comes down early, is a giant wall the first turn he comes into play, shrinks opposing knight's of the reliquary, messes with dredge, painterstone can't win without removing your graveyard if he is on the table, cataclysm will help keep him around (Either pre cat or afterwards) and well he is a 4/4 for 2. You should never run more than 3 but you should really consider running them.

If you want to go really techy you could try fitting in a few crucibles and go with a wastelock plan against slow control.

[Eldarion]

Steppe Lynx can be a very bad topdeck and sometimes inconsistent, seeing as it requires a land drop to be useful. It is also extremely powerful and better than many people seem to think. All you really need to get out of him is 6 damage for him to be as good/better than any other 1 drop in the format. He is still used in fast Zoo lists that are full of burn and their best first turn play. You sometimes need to recover after a cataclysm and he will help by being cheap, same with Jotun Grunt ;)

Jotun Grunt helps shrink goyf's, comes down early, is a giant wall the first turn he comes into play, shrinks opposing knight's of the reliquary, messes with dredge, painterstone can't win without removing your graveyard if he is on the table, cataclysm will help keep him around (Either pre cat or afterwards) and well he is a 4/4 for 2. You should never run more than 3 but you should really consider running them.

If you want to go really techy you could try fitting in a few crucibles and go with a wastelock plan against slow control.

Congratulations, you just sold me on a trio of Grunts. Lynx I still think should be in another deck - between Tithes, Moxen, and Flagstones, I usually have 2-3 mana open the turn after Cata, sometimes even 4, so the 1-drop post-cata is not such a draw for me. And I don't have the burn to provide the reach I need to take advantage of the Lynx's explosiveness.

So I'm marching my trio of Silver Knights out of there and sleeving up some Grunts. My only worry going in is that their upkeep means they're not exactly something you can always drop on the table turn 2.

About the wastelock plan, I did try that before, but I either played it badly or undercommitted to it - I used 1 Crucible and 1 Wasteland, for fetching with the tutors and KotR. Most of the time I needed to tutor for something else, and whenever I had it there always seemed to be a better use for my mana. All in all, it looks like it needs a higher commitment for ? improvement - my current build can use an early Mox Diamond to deliver a turn 4 kill with either Mirran Crusader and SFM/Jitte or Mirran Crusader and Elspeth. If those are disrupted, a long game usually means I have the time to set up Boseiju + Cata.