Mirrodin Besieged: What might Legacy use?

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Sorry if there's already a thread like this. I don't want to focus on just one specific card. There are plenty of single card threads that discuss indetail the ones I mention below. I'm just looking for brief descriptions of what current established decks could use a card and why. No need for huge discussions on a single card. That's what the other threads are for.


155/155 amd I'm disappointed... What do you think could see play in Legacy?

Crusaders I can see being sideboarded for their protections.

Tezzeret is pretty deck specific so I don't think he'll see much.

Thrun is sweet, but probably won't see play.

Sword of Feast and Famine will never be as good as SoFI and SoLS.

Hero of Bladehold, probably not.

Green Sun's Zenith, maybe? What cards would it fetch? Awesome EDH card.

Consecrated Sphynx is badass but expensive and easily removed in Legacy. Though I definitely imagine it'll be used in EDH.

Go for the Throat is good removal but sub par to Legacy's arsenal.

Treasure Mage? Would could that fetch in Legacy? Nothing that I can think of.

Might Goblin Wardriver be used in Goblins? Likely not.

Lead the Stampede might be played in Elves instead of Sylvan Messenger (http://www.magictraders.com/cgi-bin/autocard.cgi?Sylvan%20Messenger) I'll sure try it.

Another question to ponder. Will Legacy ever see a poison deck? Maybe thread worthy.

[Cthuloo]

Green Sun's Zenith has definitely some potential. It will surely be tested at least, and then we will see if it's indeed good enough for legacy. Go for the Throat will surely see some play, as a metagame choice (competing with smother and doom blade). Goblin Wardriver seems also worth a try, It's basically a 2cc lord effect, I think it will be useful in some situations.

These are the ones I'm sure will see a nonzero legacy play. It's still too early to make a definitive statement for the others.

P.S.
I'm a bit disappointed too. I'm still waiting for a playable black planeswalker...

[kusumoto]

Phyrexian Revoker


I don't see how he isn't mentioned here. It gives decks that use chalice access to pithing needle (mostly).

He's really good.

[Barook]

You're really disappointed in MBS? The set has probably the most cards with potential Legacy use since a long time.

- Tezzeret seems very powerful in Affinity, but we have to wait and see until a good build is found.

- Glissa + EE definitely has potential (although I wouldn't overestimate it).

- Phyrexian Revoker WILL see play.

- Blightsteel Colossus might find a spot somewhere due to being a one-hit wonder.

- SoFF does indeed disappoint, just like the possibilities the Living Weapon mechanic wasted.

- Inkmoth Nexus might be cool.

- Mirran Crusader has the relevant pro green and hits like a truck when pumped (Elspeth and SoFI both enable evasive 2-turn clocks). One should definitely have an eye on that one.

- Go for the Throat is good removal for black. Sure, it's not a StP/PtE, but gives black new removal options.

- Green Sun's Zenith is easily the most powerful card in the set for Legacy. It's guranteed to see lots of play.

There might be other cards with potential uses, but I limited myself to the most important cards.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Phyrexian Revoker


I don't see how he isn't mentioned here. It gives decks that use chalice access to pithing needle (mostly).

He's really good.

Yep. I missed him. He was intended to be on there.


I'm really curious as to what people think of Lead the Stampede in Elves.

[Infinitium]

Blue Sun's Zenith easily replaces Stroke of Genius in Tide decks; especially ones running Merchant Scroll. Welder Myr has some chance of seeing play in Metalworker combo decks; if only because of the fact it's a non-awful 3-drop. Hero of Oxid Ridge is a potential 4-drop for Dragon Stompy but competes with Koth for the slot.

[kiblast]

Goblin Wardriver seems also worth a try, It's basically a 2cc lord effect, I think it will be useful in some situations.



I don't think so. Why? because he doesn't cost 1R, and under Warchief costs always RR. Might seem a little thing, but it is a HUGE disadvantage for any solid goblin player. And doesn't have some built in protection or evasion such as Piledriver (against Merfolk he HAS evasion). I mean, is a nice card, but subpar in any Goblin build imho. What would you cut to play him?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Yep. I missed him. He was intended to be on there.


I'm really curious as to what people think of Lead the Stampede in Elves.

Probably not. What elf decks want to run something that costs 3 whole mana?
The only card I run that costs that much is Krosan Grip.

[Justin]

There are more cards with potential that I am listing, but here are the cards that have sparked my interest.

Leonin Relic-Walker seems good for Death and Taxes. It can generate nice card advantage with Flickerwisp/Vial tricks. Given how popular vial is right now, it seems like a good choice for WW.

Mirran Crusader: I have my doubts because of the three mana cost, however I'd like to test it in D&T because it can be kind of nutty with some good equipment on it.

Go for the Throat: This is worth considering as black removal, just not in an Affinity-heavy meta.

Green Sun's Zealot: This should be the star card of the set. I think it will become a Legacy staple. Everyone will want four of these for their collection.

Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas: It looks to be an excellent finisher for Affinity.

Phyrexian Revoker: While it is probably not as good as Pithing Needle for most decks, it plays well in decks that play good equipment. Affinity and decks that play Stoneforge Mystic will probably want this in their sideboards. It is also main deck playable in the right meta.

Sword of Feast or Famine: I'm not ready to count this out as a possible one-of in a Stoneforge Mystic deck. It seems better than the other pro-green sword. The untap lands ability could be quite nice.

[rufus]

My maybe list:
Accorder Paladin
Ardent Recruit
Leonin Relic Warder - Vialable Artifact/Enchantment counter.
Steel Sabotage - Probably not, but it's a 1cc answer to lots of stuff. Sideboard material?
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas - Powerful abilites, but the cc is high.
Ichor Wellsping - 2cc artifact cantrips probably won't ever hit critical mass.
Myr Welder - The ability is strong, but the drawbacks are terrible.
Inkmoth Nexus
Praetor's Counsel - Pricey to cast, but possibly worth the mana or cards to cheat it on the stack.
Treasure Mage
Phyrexian Vatmother
Rot Wolf
Phyrexian Digester
Knowledge Pool

My Probably list:
Green Sun's Zenith
Phyrexian Revoker
Blightsteel Colossus

[Cthuloo]

Yep. I missed him. He was intended to be on there.


I'm really curious as to what people think of Lead the Stampede in Elves.

Uh-oh, big mistake on my part too. This is probably just the best card of the set (legacy-wise).

[from Cairo]

Phyrexian Revoker will definitely see some play. Green Sun's Zenith and Go for the Throat should as well.

I agree that the Living Weapon mechanic was a disappointment. I was really hoping for something busted to go in a SFM toolbox, but the LWs and the new Sword are all pretty bad.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Probably not. What elf decks want to run something that costs 3 whole mana?
The only card I run that costs that much is Krosan Grip.

Many elf decks run 1 or more Sylvan Messenger. You get to dig one card deeper, 1cc less to play, but you don't get a 2/2 trample out of it.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

Just preordered: 4x Green Sun's Zenith, 4x Phyrexian Revoker, 4x Go for the Throat, 4x Phyrexian and Mirrian Crusader, 4x Ardent Recruit (to try out in Stax). Got from coolstuffinc. Woot, can't wait. No need to get a booster box for this set. I'll just win some boosters at prereleases and drafts.

[ramanujan]

Just read through the spoiler. This set is pretty weak. There are a few cards that may see some light play but overall, the set is just not that stong. I am already looking forward to the next spoiler season. I may not purchase a single card from the set.

[Karhumies]

Phyrexian Revoker


I don't see how he isn't mentioned here. It gives decks that use chalice access to pithing needle (mostly).

He's really good.

This. Expect him to become a Legacy sideboard staple.

It's a sub-par version of a Pithing Needle attached into a body - which makes it better than P.Needle in the decks which need bodies 1st and protection 2nd.

[2Rach]

This. Expect him to become a Legacy sideboard staple.

It's a sub-par version of a Pithing Needle attached into a body - which makes it better than P.Needle in the decks which need bodies 1st and protection 2nd.
Which is why it's actually worse than Pithing Needle. If you're sideboarding it in, you need the hate so you don't want it to be as vulnerable as a creature. (Not saying it's bad, but it is worse because of it being a creature despite the advantage of doing more than just laying there.)

EDIT:
That said, it's much more likely than Pithing Needle to be maindecked somewhere, excluding Trinket Mage tricks.

[Angelfire]

This set has more potential Legacy viable cards than any set since Future Sight.

Mirran Crusader - Protection from Goyf (and a plethora of other threats/removal). Double Strike means he is a 2 swing clock with SoFI or Jitte (and others).

Phyrexian Revoker - Pithing Needle that can beat face, carry equipment and chump block. While he can't hit manlands, Wasteland and Fecthes... he does hit Moxen, LED and mana producing Elves.

Green Sun's Zenith - If it only functioned as Goyf 5+ it would be playable. The flexibility pf turn 1 Dryad Arbor or the ability to grab utility creatures like Pridemage, Noble Hierarch, Trygon etc... make it a very viable card.

Go For The Throat - The best Black removal spell printed to date.

Thrun - Still a great creature. Absolutely amazing with enchant creatures (Rancor, Armadillo Cloak, Equipment).

Glissa - Wins in combat vs nearly every creature in the format. Is a beast with cards like Engineered Explosives and Executioner's Capsule.

Tezzeret - A very well designed card. Should be an include in many builds of Affinity.

Bonehoard - The very best new Equipment for SFM. Uncounterable and tutorable creature that "becomes" a potentially huge equipment when it dies.

Ichor Wellspring - Possible draw engine for Stax decks and Welder builds.

Shriekhorn - Another efficient mill card. Note: "Burn" style mill will NEVER be viable in legacy lol.

Sword of Feast and Famine - Still very good. If you are connecting, allows you to dump your hand into play or move equipment around for defense. Protection from Green is underrated. Still not as good as SoFI/SoLS.

Blightsteel Colossus - Can one-shot people.

Phyrexian Vatmother - Possibly a sleeper hit. Essentially an 8/5 for 4 mana with no drawback (which is sadly still probably good enough for Legacy). Compared to Juzam Dijn and friends, Vatmother is clearly much better. Also, like all infect creatures, great with pump.

Galvanoth - Would be nuts with Mystical tutor (grab Time Stretch or something like Dragon Storm). Would also be good with the new 8 mana Green Yawgmoth's Will. "Combos" with Reclaim. Note: Just pointing out "fun" interactions, NOT legacy viable.

Treasure Mage - Can fetch Blightsteel Colossus in Sneak attack?

Also, some number of random infect creatures played with pump.

[obituary 95]

I think that leonin relic-warden is a fantastic card and underrated . It allows control decks to make plays they were not able to do before .for example lets say you are playing against merfolk and your opponent goes turn one vial aka a control players nightmare come true. but if you play this guy on turn two it allows you to shorten the life of the vial while you still gain value in a non linear way, not to mention he buys you time in fact he could buy you a lot of time . lets just say for the sake of argument that your merfolk opponent has a lot of two to three casting lords in there hand . because the deck relies on vial alot it can make them wait for more land to try and swarm the board . besides if you take out vial all that will happen in its time of being removed is that the vial will be set at zero again making your opponent waste more valuable time.

plus it also allows control decks the ability to punish odd hands where you get mutavault and a island as your only mana sources

[Amon Amarth]

/aside

The problem with this block is that many people are comparing it to the last 2 artifact based blocks and it doesn't quite stand up. That said those aforementioned blocks were the most broken blocks ever. Scars has grown on me over the last few months even with the worst liner mechanic ever (Infect/Poison). Most sets only offer a few playables and there are certainly as many here. We're just spoiled by Urza's and Mirrodin block. :P

/endaside

Staples:
Phyrexian Revoker

It's a Pithing Needle with legs. Can't stop Lands but it does stop LED (HUGE!) Birds, Hierarch, and everything else that Needle hits. And beats for two. It's hard to say where this is better than Needle but aggressive decks will certainly be a fan of this while control decks will want Needle to Trinket Mage for and they want to hit things like Waste and Port as well.

Prolly going to see play in specific decks:
Green Sun's Zenith
Go for the Throat
Bonehoard
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Sword of Feast and Famine

GSZ is a great card that will see some play in Bant style decks as an efficient tutor for Trygon Predator, Witness, and all sorts of goodies. Also, I'm going to test it out in Elves because being able to Tinker in another Nettle Sentinel is pretty awesome. Later on you can get something else like Regal Force. An awesome card. GFFT is a good piece of removal but being two mana its more of an alternative to Smother than a Ghasty Demise replacement. Bonehoard is an uncounterabe, tutorable, instant speed Mortivore with SFM and that's pretty good in my book. Tezz 2.0 is awesome but he lacks a home. Maybe in a Stax shell... :D Sword of Feast and Famine is pretty good but I can't see it replacing Fire/Ice or Light/Shadow.

Sporadic play:
Blightsteel Colossus
Treasure Mage
Mirran Crusader

BSC is a great Forgemaster target and it might see some play in Sneaky Tell decks. It's no Emrakul, but what is? Treasure Mage is OK but it's tutoring for expensive stuff just isn't that exciting for most decks. Mirran Crusader might see some play but 3 mana is quite a bit. It is a house with equipment tho'.

[dahcmai]

Phyrexian Revoker - Obviously a good legacy worthy card. I like him better than Pithing Needle itself. I consider it like Dark Confidant compared to Phyrexian Arena.

Blightsteel Colossus - Serious maybe for his ability to one hit someone.

Go for the Throat - excellent alternative ranking in the category of Smother, Doom Blade, Innocent Blood, and Ghastly Demise. Will see play depending on meta obviously.

Tezzeret - This guy is really, really good. It's going to take the right type of deck to use him and that doesn't exist yet, but he will eventually be used no matter what. He's that good, just overly specific on his uses.

Green Sun's Zenith - the Dryad Arbor trick alone makes it worth playing in the No decks. Considering it's ability to dodge a Counterbalance and slap a critter directly into play makes it worth considering.

Steel Sabotage - a better version of Annul. Annul hasn't seen play in a while, but only due to the lack of seriously scary artifact deck. It's one of those cards you get a set of just for future play when there is a scary artifact deck.

Glissa - I personally like her. EE and Mindslaver make her worth messing around with and a First striking Deathtouch creature has always been scary just the rest of them were overcosted pretty badly. I see a use for her.


Lastly,

Inkmoth Nexus - There's not real use for an Infect man-land, but I really like this thing. Elspeth alone make you think twice. Not real sure if this would ever take off, but it's sure worth trying out.


I'd love to hear what people have in mind for that Treasure Mage. I can't think of anything I would care to throw him in. Seems like crap to me. Someone throw an idea that doesn't suck at me. I don't see that one.

[AngryTroll]

Phyrexian Revoker - Obviously a good legacy worthy card. I like him better than Pithing Needle itself. I consider it like Dark Confidant compared to Phyrexian Arena.

Steel Sabotage - a better version of Annul. Annul hasn't seen play in a while, but only due to the lack of seriously scary artifact deck. It's one of those cards you get a set of just for future play when there is a scary artifact deck.

it's worth noting that Annul hits Counterbalance and occasionally Pernicious Deed, but I agree that it's probably worth picking up a playset of Steel Sabotages.

Phyrexian Revoker is pretty awesome but is much more easily removed than Pithing Needle. On one hand, against Tendrils or Merfolk, Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker are both removed by the same spells from the board, and the Revoker swings for two. On the other hand, Revoker is easily removed by cards in the maindeck of Goblins and most other decks, while Pithing Needle requires specific hate from the board. I'll probably be picking up a set, but I'm not yet sure that they'll replace Pithing Needle in most of my decks or sideboards.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Is OP serious? What do you want a whole Legacy set? If we get 1 playable card I'm happy. There are at least 3 playable Legacy cards in Green Zenith, Pithing Needle with legs, and Go For The Throat, as well as several cards that warrant testing and could end up making an impact down the road namely Tezz, then there are several more cards that will possibly see play in Vintage especially new Annul. All in all a pretty good set for Eternal if you ask me.

[Nekrataal]

Most of the cards listed in previous comments are simply not Legacy playable and just mentioning them doesn't make the set feature more legacy playbles. I really have to wonder what ppl are mentioned here. Apart from Green Suns Zenith and Needle on legs there is NO card that will see some real play and even these two will be relegated to be 1-2 Offs in Elves or SB card in some specific decks that cannot play the real Needle.

This is disappointing even for a small set. Rise of Eldrazi was better than this. Considering my high expectations regarding playable artifacts in an artifact block this has been turned out to be even more disappointing.

There a some total niche cards like Colossus, Tezzeret maybe see play in specific Tier 2/3 decks and some added redundancy with "Go for the throat" but apart from that there's nothing. Ardent Recruit, Treasure Mage, Rot Wolf ... come on. This is legacy!

[Crysthorn]

This set has more potential Legacy viable cards than any set since Future Sight.
Now that is simply wrong. Mirrodin Besieged has only a few cards playable in Legacy (in worst case 2-3, in best case 6-7), while Zendikar had about a dozen solid contenders, including such staples as five enemy fetches, Iona or Spell Pierce.

[Angelfire]

Now that is simply wrong. Mirrodin Besieged has only a few cards playable in Legacy (in worst case 2-3, in best case 6-7), while Zendikar had about a dozen solid contenders, including such staples as five enemy fetches, Iona or Spell Pierce.

Zendikar is also a base set which means it contains almost 100 extra cards (the logic of whether card for card is relevant is up for debate). Despite enemy fetches being awesome staples, they don't really impact the format at all (very marginal increase in consistency of enemey playing decks). Now that Surivial is gone Iona sees very little play. Please name your other "contenders". Zendikar is filled with good cards that aren't legacy viable (things like Allies, Kor Duelist, and very few playable traps).

Cards like Glissa, Go for the Throat, Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Devolver, Green Sun's Zenith... all have a very good chance of changing the format.

[Solar Ice]

I'm also disapponted with the set, but considering Legacy is an Eternal format it's not too bad. We certainly got 2 or 3 playable cards although nothing busted like Jace MKII. I think that the problem is that we didn't really get much stuff that is versatile. Apart from GSZ and Phyrexian Revoker, there's not much that could go into a variety of decks, which don't already have a better option (this is Eternal after all). Tezz 2.0 is my third pick for the best 3 cards of the set for Legacy. That card could really prove to be great in Affinity. Time will tell but it certainly looks like a huge boost for the deck.

[dahcmai]

Some of you guys obviously didn't play during the days of getting sets like Prophesy where you search through the set and find things like Aura Fracture for the best Legacy playable. Recent sets have been excellent, this one isn't bad at all. It's like they finally decided to keep us eternal players in mind and make a few cards that are great in the older formats only.

Seriously, look up some of those older sets and try and find 6 legacy playable cards. It's not easy and you have to stretch most of the time.

[ZeinVoncy]

Some of you guys obviously didn't play during the days of getting sets like Prophesy where you search through the set and find things like Aura Fracture for the best Legacy playable. Recent sets have been excellent, this one isn't bad at all. It's like they finally decided to keep us eternal players in mind and make a few cards that are great in the older formats only.

Seriously, look up some of those older sets and try and find 6 legacy playable cards. It's not easy and you have to stretch most of the time.

This! LoL, I remember those days. But at least back then, every other set released had some stellar cards for that time. (Anyone remember the days of Rising Waters decks?) Bad card now, but back then was an awesome control card.

[rufus]

Seriously, look up some of those older sets and try and find 6 legacy playable cards. It's not easy and you have to stretch most of the time.

Heh, Fallen Empires: Hymn to Tourach, High Tide, and... Aeopile? Seasinger ?

Alliances, OTOH does get there...Diminishing Returns, Elvish Spirit Guide,Force of Will, Lim-Dul's Vault, Phyrexian Devourer, Helm of Obedience (the last two as combo elements).

FWIW, Arabian Nights, once considered high power, has?
Serendib Efreet, Kird Ape...Mountain?

[Crysthorn]

Zendikar is also a base set which means it contains almost 100 extra cards
Sure, but you didn't say "any small set since FS" - you just said "any set since FS", which isn't true.


Now that Surivial is gone Iona sees very little play.
First of all, Iona is/was much more relevant in Reanimator than in Survival. Second of all, it's like Phyrexian Dreadnought - even if she's less played today, you can't say that she didn't impact the format, because she surely had her heyday.


Please name your other "contenders".
Off the top of my head: five fetches, Bloodghast, Iona, Mindbreak Trap, Spell Pierce, Steppe Lynx, Gatekeeper of Malakir. That's eleven cards already that saw decent amount of play in Legacy, and I'm not even mentioning some fringe cards like Ravenous Trap, Vampire Hexmage or Vampire Nighthawk.


Cards like Glissa, Go for the Throat, Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Devolver, Green Sun's Zenith... all have a very good chance of changing the format.
Revoker, green zenith and GftT I can agree, but the rest is up for debate (and even if you're right, it's still 5 vs 11).

[Tacosnape]

In order of how much they'll get played:

1. Green Sun's Zenith. This card WILL see a ton of play. Everywhere.

2. Phyrexian Revoker. Being on a body will cause a lot of players to (incorrectly) see him as worse than Needle.

3. Phyrexian Crusader. Will surge once people figure out he's a kill condition in black control, not a beater in black aggro. Ironically, one of the best answers for him in existence is...

4. Go for the Throat. Very solid. Good enough to compete with Diabolic Edict in some decks. Will see some play, possibly a lot of play if people play Phyrexian Crusader.

5. Hero of Bladehold. Will make a name for itself in Stax, or white Chalice aggro. The problem is, those decks never make much a name for themselves. Big fish, small pond.

6. Blightsteel Colossus. Will see a surge for the next six, seven months. Will be nonexistant in the metagame by the end of the year.

[Nekrataal]

Some of you guys obviously didn't play during the days of getting sets like Prophesy where you search through the set and find things like Aura Fracture for the best Legacy playable. Recent sets have been excellent, this one isn't bad at all. It's like they finally decided to keep us eternal players in mind and make a few cards that are great in the older formats only.

Seriously, look up some of those older sets and try and find 6 legacy playable cards. It's not easy and you have to stretch most of the time.

I think that we have been pampered by WotC during the last sets getting enemy fetches and a lot of new tools like Jace 2.0, Emrakul, yet another Merfolk Lord to work with. These days are over as it seems.


In order of how much they'll get played:

1. Green Sun's Zenith. This card WILL see a ton of play. Everywhere.

2. Phyrexian Revoker. Being on a body will cause a lot of players to (incorrectly) see him as worse than Needle.

3. Phyrexian Crusader. Will surge once people figure out he's a kill condition in black control, not a beater in black aggro. Ironically, one of the best answers for him in existence is...

4. Go for the Throat. Very solid. Good enough to compete with Diabolic Edict in some decks. Will see some play, possibly a lot of play if people play Phyrexian Crusader.

5. Hero of Bladehold. Will make a name for itself in Stax, or white Chalice aggro. The problem is, those decks never make much a name for themselves. Big fish, small pond.

6. Blightsteel Colossus. Will see a surge for the next six, seven months. Will be nonexistant in the metagame by the end of the year.

=> 3, the problem of black control never was having a kill condition now, was it?
=> 5, the problem here is that it has no evasion and you probably will/ can not attack and thus gain any tokens subsequently. I do not see this in Stax as of now.
=> 6, I tend to agree but Sneak Attack / Show and Tell is the only deck where I see it being played

[Tacosnape]

I think that we have been pampered by WotC during the last sets getting enemy fetches and a lot new tools (Jace 2.0, Emrakul, yet another Merfolk Lord) to work with. These days are over as it seems.



=> 3, the problem of black control never was having a kill condition now, was it?
=> 5, the problem here is that it has no evasion and you probably will not attack and gain any tokens subsequently. I do not see this in Stax as of now.
=> 6, I tend to agree but Sneak Attack / Show and Tell is the only deck where I see it being played

3 - No, but this guy's incredibly better than most of the other options. Blue control decks had kill conditions before Jace the Mind Sculptor. Doesn't mean Jace doesn't blow the rest of them out of the water.
5 - This is a fairly good point. And I would duly note that I think the gap between the big four in this set and all the rest is pretty huge. But I still think the potential's there. 3/4 is big enough to attack into some things if you get him out fast enough, and he's staring down, say, a 4/5 Tarmogoyf, then they aren't going to swing in either, which could help your cause. Perhaps he'd function better in some kind of G/W Midrange deck with Knight of the Reliquary and Maze of Ith.
6 - He's not even the best with Show and Tell, is why I think he'll fail to stick around. Immunity to Swords to Plowshares makes Emrakul the better choice in most situations. Sneak Attack's the only regularly played card he's good with, though given his one hit kill nature, Through The Breach is almost as solid here.

[menace13]

Zendikar is also a base set which means it contains almost 100 extra cards (the logic of whether card for card is relevant is up for debate). Despite enemy fetches being awesome staples, they don't really impact the format at all (very marginal increase in consistency of enemey playing decks). Now that Surivial is gone Iona sees very little play. Please name your other "contenders". Zendikar is filled with good cards that aren't legacy viable (things like Allies, Kor Duelist, and very few playable traps).

Cards like Glissa, Go for the Throat, Mirran Crusader, Phyrexian Devolver, Green Sun's Zenith... all have a very good chance of changing the format.


Sure, but you didn't say "any small set since FS" - you just said "any set since FS", which isn't true.

First of all, Iona is/was much more relevant in Reanimator than in Survival. Second of all, it's like Phyrexian Dreadnought - even if she's less played today, you can't say that she didn't impact the format, because she surely had her heyday.

Off the top of my head: five fetches, Bloodghast, Iona, Mindbreak Trap, Spell Pierce, Steppe Lynx, Gatekeeper of Malakir. That's eleven cards already that saw decent amount of play in Legacy, and I'm not even mentioning some fringe cards like Ravenous Trap, Vampire Hexmage or Vampire Nighthawk.

Revoker, green zenith and GftT I can agree, but the rest is up for debate (and even if you're right, it's still 5 vs 11).

Goblin Guide, Punishing Fire, Sad Sac, and Lotus Cobra, are some other good cards, also Zen block has a few other notables(Jace,Emrakul,Vengevine,Stoneforge,Coralhelm,Nature's Claim, and decent Manlands).

Dahcmai is correct, Every set in the past four years has been amazing for eternal formats.

[dahcmai]

I kind of like the Colossus for a Sutured Ghoul replacement. Not that Ghoul has seen much play in a long time, but the choice is there at least. I was going to make a deck using the Colossus in that old role since the Gamekeeper decks were pretty good about shattering people's hands to make way for a fatty.

[Kuma]

Leonin Relic-Warder: Might see play in something like Death and Taxes, but the fact that he has CMC 2 makes him a limited Counterbalance answer. Oblivion Ring is better in a lot of decks.

Mirran Crusader: Carries equipment like a champ and has protection from Tarmogoyf. Will probably see play in Death and Taxes.

Blue Sun's Zenith: Marginally better than Stroke of Genius in Spring Tide/Solidarity.

Go for the Throat: Another contender for the black removal spell of choice.

Phyrexian Crusader: Protection from removal, first strike, and infect. I don't know what deck wants him, but he's got potential.

Goblin Wardriver: Does Goblins want this guy? Probably not, but he seems solid.

Green Sun's Zenith: This one has been discussed at length, and it's probably going to end up in most decks with green creatures. And Wizards said they'd never reprint Tarmogoyf...

Phyrexian Revoker: Will see play over Pithing Needle in many decks. However, for some needling lands is too important.

Inkmoth Nexus: Could become the manland of choice in control decks with Elspeth. Probably won't.

[Hobtuse]

Mirrodin Besieged offers far more than Scars of Mirrodin did for Legacy and is a pretty decent set in terms of new playables. Prereleases have a whole new spin to it with the two different factions and I think they have enough in this set for Legacy. Here are some cards that I think will see play in Legacy.

Green Sun's Zenith - Has a lot of potential and should reasonably see play in Bant and Elves - possibly pushing Elves to Tier 1?

Mirran Crusader - Double strike equates to a much faster clock. Should be a monster with equipment - perhaps Death & Taxes?

Go for the Throat - It seems to be the new removal of choice for Black as it can also take care of Bob, Tombstalker. However a friend pointed out it can't take out Affinity dudes (sure to rise in popularity in play) and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Other than that, I really like Go for the Throat.!

Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas - This could be the card that moves Affinity from its current aggro shell to a more combo-esque and control shell. hopefully some people will break it but I think it's surely gonna see play in Affinity or at least spin out a variant branch by itself.

Phyrexian Revoker - This card has potential and hoses mana abilities too. But I am not sure what deck can it fit into right now? Any suggestions?

Blightsteel Colossus - I still don't understand why they continue to print fatties such as BSC. For the past 2 years, we have seen Inkwell Leviathan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Terastodon, Iona, Emrakul, Myr Battlesphere. This card will render Darksteel Colossus obsolete and probably be the new Weapon of Mass Destruction for Tinker decks in Vintage and Sneaky Show decks in Legacy. That said, I still approve of the printing of Progenitus. It's the Soul of the World afterall.

Lead the Stampede - I am not sure about this card for Legacy Elves as although Sylvan Messenger cost 1 more and sees 1 less card, it does give you a 2/2 body with trample.

Thrun, the Last Troll - According to a huge fan of Green Chalice Stompy!, this is a new toy for him. 4/4. Uncounterable. Troll Shroud. Regeneration.

Inkmoth Nexus - Evasion. Wonder if it will see play in Affinity decks. I mean it's a 1/2 turn clock with Cranial Plating right?

That said, Mirrodin Besieged does have a few duds. But I like what they have tried to do with the set. Just like the rest, if only they start printing that elusive good Black Planeswalker. 3CMC-4CMC please.

Notable disappointment:
Phyrexian Crusader - Why did it have to be infect?

[Nekrataal]

Mirrodin Besieged offers far more than Scars of Mirrodin did for Legacy and is a pretty decent set in terms of new playables. Prereleases have a whole new spin to it with the two different factions and I think they have enough in this set for Legacy. Here are some cards that I think will see play in Legacy.


You must be kidding.:tongue: Apart from GSZ (1-2 Off in 1 deck), GftT (redundant card) and Needle on legs (in most decks strictly worse than Needle) none of the mentioned cards will see legacy play and if only in rare Tier 2/3 Decks. Being an artifact block - I repeat myself - I miss the good artifacts. Scars at least delivered a few cards surely to see Lecagy play like Ratchet Bomb or Necrotic Ooze along with some Niche Cards like Mox Opal or Memnite and it had a couple of actually good artifacts like Platinum Emperion, Steel Hellkite or Wurmcoil Engine. Also it introdcued Poison which made ppl think of BG Poison Stompy Decks.

[Meekrab]

I just spent at least 30 seconds trying to figure out why people were nutting themselves over Go for the Throat when the exact same card is in red for one mana less in the same set (Crush (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=296010)). Then I read both cards a few more times, felt bad and made this post.

[RexFTW]

You are all missing Signal Pest! Amazing in affinity. Contrary to popular opinion, affinity is a real legacy deck now.

[dahcmai]

I just spent at least 30 seconds trying to figure out why people were nutting themselves over Go for the Throat when the exact same card is in red for one mana less in the same set (Crush (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=296010)). Then I read both cards a few more times, felt bad and made this post.


If Go for the Throat was the same as Crush, I would be nutting myself. Black Artifact removal would be hot especially without having to sac a creature to do it.




Anyway, Affinity has always been a good deck. It just has a serious frigging weakness. Hate cards are not just good against it, they are crippling.

[Octopusman]

Phyrexian Vatmother - Possibly a sleeper hit. Essentially an 8/5 for 4 mana with no drawback (which is sadly still probably good enough for Legacy). Compared to Juzam Dijn and friends, Vatmother is clearly much better. Also, like all infect creatures, great with pump.

Am I crazy? I heard people say that the Phyrexian Crusader is "essentially a 4/4 in combat" and Vatmother is like an 8/5.
The creature doesn't assign damage to a creature, it applies -1/-1 counters as a replacement effect. It still does "damage" but as -1/-1 counters. Meaning, you're not dealing 4 to a creature and then adding -4/-4 and thus killing it if it had 8 toughness.
Right?!

I could expand on things other people have said but no point really.
Bored though so:
I personally believe that Pithing Beetle is going to see a lot of play in all formats. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

GSZ: scared to hell of this card. Like people need more incentive to play Nopro... Looks like Runed Halo is back in!

Relic Warder: I almost wish that it WAS 3CMC so that I could beat on counterbalance players with my O-ring. Was hoping I'd see more answers for counterbalance besides GSZ.

Tezz 2.0: It's my opinion that there is no doubt that this card will enable an amazing deck. The agro plan - make moxen 5/5, the control/combo plan - dig, the kill condition - easily accumulated and activated. It has it all.

I am a longtime player as well and I have been extremely thankful for a while now to see playable cards printed. I always joke about how Wizards doesn't give a crap about eternal, so I can't tell if all the playable cards are a coincidence because of powercreep in standard or if Wizards actually does give it some thought. Maybe a little bit of both. Sometimes I see stuff like GSZ and I can't help but think "WTF are they thinking?!". The first card that really made me think Wizards pays attention to eternal was when they printed Chalice of the Void.
It's kind of crazy how strong green has gotten.

I Love this set can't wait for the next one.

[Nekrataal]

"Pithing Beetle is going to see a lot of play in all formats". For non-legacy formats you could be right. For Legacy you should explain why this is better than Needle for a certain deck? Most decks that currently play Needle want to shut down a certain permanent with it (or several certain permanents of specific DTB/DTW) for longer than up to the next removal spell. Also you potentially will not attack with the guy to end the effect. So imagine Bant Aggro with a creature count of about 16-20. Why should they play that guy over Needle to shutdown cards like Jace, Sneak Attack, Survivall (well these days are gone) whatsoever ? To effectively disable such threats it is more important to have continuity in effect than a fragile beater in most cases imho. I can imagine Pithing Beetle in a deck like Affinity because it is pumping out many creature in such a short time that you rather have to spent removal on other more dangerous attackers. Of course you can also argue that it "draws" removal which otherwise would have been used on your regular creatures but this missing the actual point why to play it in the first place. I am not saying it is bad and it will see play but the extend of it will be rather sparse.


If Go for the Throat was the same as Crush, I would be nutting myself. Black Artifact removal would be hot especially without having to sac a creature to do it.

Anyway, Affinity has always been a good deck. It just has a serious frigging weakness. Hate cards are not just good against it, they are crippling.

LOL you a right nutting, wetting all at the same time but black artifact removal is out of colorpie ... up to now and except for certain mistakes from the past.

Exactly what I have been thinking. And let me bring in another aspect that surfs on the same wave: Actually as long as Affinity decks are played on rare occasions and surprise unprepared ppl they can achieve good tourney results. It is a good deck as such. The problem is that if the Meta should ever feel the need to react on an increasing number of Affinity (by considering SB hate) the reaction will be devastating for the deck. The problem with new Tezz is that he does not help the deck in that direction to be less susceptible for hate.

[practical joke]

Am I crazy? I heard people say that the Phyrexian Crusader is "essentially a 4/4 in combat" and Vatmother is like an 8/5.
The creature doesn't assign damage to a creature, it applies -1/-1 counters as a replacement effect. It still does "damage" but as -1/-1 counters. Meaning, you're not dealing 4 to a creature and then adding -4/-4 and thus killing it if it had 8 toughness.
Right?!
.

It's effectively double damage against players because it only takes 10 poisons counters to win. (dealing 4 a chunk is quite nice)

The -1/-1 counters are a replacement effect instead of the normal damage (see infect ruling written on every infect card)

so no, it does not deal 8 damage to a single creature.

[TsumiBand]

Don't ever call poison counters "double damage" to a player.

A player with 18 life and 4 poison counters is not "effectively" at 8. They need to take 18 more damage or be given 6 more poison counters, but not some weird mix thereof. This is the reason that Infect is fundamentally flawed; all the creatures or spells in a deck looking to win via poison have to be poison-centric, meaning you can't (shouldn't, anyway) run some mono-black jank featuring Nantuko Shade *and* Phyrexian Crusader. It's like some blue control deck running Millstone as "a backup plan".

[practical joke]

Don't ever call poison counters "double damage" to a player.

A player with 18 life and 4 poison counters is not "effectively" at 8. They need to take 18 more damage or be given 6 more poison counters, but not some weird mix thereof. This is the reason that Infect is fundamentally flawed; all the creatures or spells in a deck looking to win via poison have to be poison-centric, meaning you can't (shouldn't, anyway) run some mono-black jank featuring Nantuko Shade *and* Phyrexian Crusader. It's like some blue control deck running Millstone as "a backup plan".

Don't ever make a poison deck with anything that deals non-poison damage.
easy as that.

[coraz86]

I don't know how well it will translate to Legacy, but let me just say after leading off a draft with one yesterday that being able to play Consecrated Sphinx is like getting swallowed by the Virgin Mary. I landed one and untapped with it and felt like I was playing Vintage or something. Consecrated Sphinx is patently gross, and I feel obliged now to find a home for it somewhere in a constructed format.

[Tacosnape]

I don't know how well it will translate to Legacy, but let me just say after leading off a draft with one yesterday that being able to play Consecrated Sphinx is like getting swallowed by the Virgin Mary. I landed one and untapped with it and felt like I was playing Vintage or something. Consecrated Sphinx is patently gross, and I feel obliged now to find a home for it somewhere in a constructed format.

I thought about this. It's absolutely ridiculous against things like Top, Brainstorm, etc.

It'd have to be cheated or ramped into play in Legacy, though. Reanimator tends to have tons of other better targets, as does almost every other method of cheating a creature into play, so Ramping seems like the better option. But six is difficult to justify ramping for given that it has no self-preservation from any removal.

If it finds a place anywhere, my gut feeling says possibly High Tide or some kind of new archetype. It's absolutely bonkers with Diminishing Returns and/or Time Spiral, which is a silly little two card combo that draws you 21 cards.

But for the most part I don't think it'll make the cut in Legacy.

[atropos]

I don't know how well it will translate to Legacy, but let me just say after leading off a draft with one yesterday that being able to play Consecrated Sphinx is like getting swallowed by the Virgin Mary. I landed one and untapped with it and felt like I was playing Vintage or something. Consecrated Sphinx is patently gross, and I feel obliged now to find a home for it somewhere in a constructed format.

If only it had shroud or something. It looks like a blast to play with.

[bakofried]

People are misinterpreting Phyrexian Revoker left and right. He's an awesome card that will see play in most formats. However, he is not Pithing Needle - in the sense that they will be put into different decks. Revoker is much more of an aggressive card - he beats, and he shuts down combo decks like a champ, and has potential against control, where there may not be enough removal to go around. He doesn't appear to be strong against aggro, though. Needle, on the other hand, is much more of a control card; it has less potential against combo (LED, Petal aren't shut off by it) but more potential in shutting down Vial decks and opposing control decks.

Also, my only fear with GFTT is that Affinity will see a surge in play. That would kind of blow. (for this card, anyway)

[paeng4983]

thron the last troll [mon green lovers like me will definitely love this]
Sword of Feast and Famine [the weakest of the sword siblings so far. if the ability was only "whenever it damage a player, reanimate a creature from any GY and target creature gets +1/+1 counter. :) ]
inkmoth nexus [being it a manland with infect]
hero [for WW? i guess...]

:)

[Justin]

People are misinterpreting Phyrexian Revoker left and right. He's an awesome card that will see play in most formats. However, he is not Pithing Needle - in the sense that they will be put into different decks. Revoker is much more of an aggressive card - he beats, and he shuts down combo decks like a champ, and has potential against control, where there may not be enough removal to go around. He doesn't appear to be strong against aggro, though. Needle, on the other hand, is much more of a control card; it has less potential against combo (LED, Petal aren't shut off by it) but more potential in shutting down Vial decks and opposing control decks.

Also, my only fear with GFTT is that Affinity will see a surge in play. That would kind of blow. (for this card, anyway)

Pithing Needle is superior to Phyrexian Revoker is most decks. The exception is for decks that run equipment. The fact that Revoker can turn off the abilities of a key card and beat down with a Cranial Plating, Jitte, etc. makes it a better sideboard option for decks that run equipment.

[bakofried]

What does pithing needle do against storm combo decks? Sure, it can shut down Top, and maybe fetches, but this shuts down LED and then beats for 2. Being able to name mana sources is huge, even if it's more vulnerable.

[Malchar]

I don't play zoo, so this might be grossly misinformed, but phyrexian revoker seems like it might be good for that deck. Particularly in the sideboard. You can turn off vial and equipment to ruin other aggro decks, and you can turn off specific combo pieces to help in those matchups. The fact that it's removable it of little important since zoo has a fast clock and this guy would probably be the weakest creature on the field. It seems like all-upside.

[luma]

The -1/-1 counters are a replacement effect instead of the normal damage (see infect ruling written on every infect card)

Actually, it's not a replacement effect, but merely a result of damage. Here's how dealing damage is defined:

- Damage dealt to a player by a source without infect causes that player to lose that much life.
- Damage dealt to a player by a source with infect causes that player to get that many poison counters.
- Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.
- Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.
- Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.

So, if a "regular" creature deals damage to a creature, the last one applies. If the creature has infect, the second to last one applies. No replacement effects there.

Concerning Phyrexian Revoker, I see it as a way for aggro decks to beat combo (shut down LED and beat for two each turn). I wouldn't play it in a control deck.

[jandax]

No one else look at Haunting Revelation and wonder the possibilities?

[menace13]

If Revoker is being brought in to name LEDS, Then Null Rod is superior in every way despite not beating for 2. Naming LED will still allow for Petal,Mox and Sensei Tops to function.

[kicks_422]

The key to beating Storm has always been disruption + clock. Null Rod, while having a more powerful effect, just sits there until you put a clock into play or the Storm player answers it.

Sure, Revoker is a 10-turn clock on its own, but at least it buys you time to lay down other threats to hopefully push the game to your advantage.

[dahcmai]

Ok, the Infect Knight isn't too shabby. I had a Dark Ritual Knight plopped on me and I have to admit. There's not much you can do about that thing. he just goes to town with basically a hit for 4 each turn and you have nothing to hit it with. Go for the Throat at least fixes this somewhat, but man I hate playing with a card called that.

[bakofried]

I'm going to pick up a few Mox Opals. I had Affinity put together a long time ago, but got tired of dying to Pridemage. I figure, with Revoker, Signal Pest, Opal, Etched Champion, and other goodies, the deck may be kinder to me.

[majikal]

Mirran Crusader - Double Strike, Protection from Goyf, PROTECTION FROM FIRESPOUT.

[bakofried]

Huh. Didn't see that. Nice catch.

[menace13]

The key to beating Storm has always been disruption + clock. Null Rod, while having a more powerful effect, just sits there until you put a clock into play or the Storm player answers it.

Sure, Revoker is a 10-turn clock on its own, but at least it buys you time to lay down other threats to hopefully push the game to your advantage.

I agree, but Cannonist is more useful here in that case, no?

[majikal]

I agree, but Cannonist is more useful here in that case, no?
Who says you wouldn't use both?