SCG San Jose (In hindsight)

[Rainbow Maker]

I don't know where to post this... I was at scg legacy tournament in san jose. I was issued a game loss for being about 5 seconds late for my match. Literally after i was issued a game loss i looked at the clock and about 7 seconds had passed. My question is this, should I have appealed this ruling to the head judge? Or would the head judge let that ruling stand?

[Muradin]

Seems your opponent was a douchebag, shit happens. My experience is that most head judges simply back their judge's decissions, unless they are flat out wrong.

Something similar happened to me once. I played a match and we were up for the 3rd game, when we got midround deckchecked with 20 minutes left on the clock. It was a big tournament and the judge didn't come back for half an hour, because he hadn't noted down our table numbers and coudn't find us again, until we saw him running arround aimlessly in our part of the hall.

After we called him over (round was already over for some time now obviously) he said that our decks are fine and that we shall now sign the result slip with and I.D., as he can't give us any extra time due to organisational reasons (all other matches were already finished for more than 5 minutes). Sucked, as we both could still have top8-ed and clearly only the judge's incompetence kept us from just finishing the match in time. We asked the headjudge in this case and he backed the judge's decision.

At least it had a good end. I decided to scoop, my opponent top2-ed and gave me a part of his price for being a nice guy.

[cdr]

I don't know where to post this... I was at scg legacy tournament in san jose. I was issued a game loss for being about 5 seconds late for my match. Literally after i was issued a game loss i looked at the clock and about 7 seconds had passed. My question is this, should I have appealed this ruling to the head judge? Or would the head judge let that ruling stand?

From a judge perspective: Why were you late? If a HJ is using 0/10 for tardiness he's waiting until 99% of people are in their seats before he starts the round. If it really was only 7 seconds in, you could probably reasonably appeal, but hopefully you have a decent reason for not being seated when everyone else managed to be.

From a player perspective: If you're getting a game loss and you think it's not reasonable, yes of course appeal.


[ridiculous story that isn't remotely similar to anything and has happened maybe once in history if that]

[saspook]

There is a very good chance that the head judge would have overturned that.

[Rainbow Maker]

I didn't think the reason would have mattered. I was originally in my seat waiting for my opponent. I had been there for about two or so minutes until i realized i had forgot my stuff at another table. Since I have had my stuff stolen at magic tournaments before i wasn't anxious to repeat this. So I grab my stuff, by the time i return I see my opponent has taken my former seat. So I am walking to the seat as the game says time for the round has begun. As the judge says this my opponent screams, "JUDGE!" At this point in time i'm putting my stuff on the ground and sitting down. The guy hasn't presented his deck for me to cut/shuffle, he hasn't even pulled his deck out of his box. I'm issued a game loss.

I can't even play a second game. I drove three of four hours to have fun not play some asshole. I guess at the time it didn't occur to me to appeal to the head judge. I can say this, most of the judges were incompetent. Also i witnessed a judge telling someone they would issue their oppenent( who was late) a game loss after 3 minutes if they hadn't shown up. The asshole i sccop ends up with the same record as me and is 32nd. So he wins like 50 bucks. So if i had won that game I could have conceivable won $50. More than likely it would be $100 if i got moderate tie breakers. This was the shortest match ever. I also played TES. But this match lasted less than three minutes.

[Aggro_zombies]

Players in the SF Bay Area are just like that: the sort of people who argued that Saito wasn't cheating, he was "trying to take advantage of every aspect of the game" and who rules lawyer the shit out of you. You should have appealed.

[sclabman]

Your opponent is the kind of ass that gives magic players a bad name and makes me really reconsider even bothering to go to big tournaments, since it's inevitable that I'm put into contact with this kind of player. That said, you really should have appealed it and the judge that gave it to you made a dumb ruling. I think I heard the same judge talking about issuing game losses after "3 minutes" too.

Judges really should at least try to be on the players' side. They aren't there to be our mothers and more retardedly strict rulings just turn more people off from tournaments. This isn't good for the health of the game.

[Rainbow Maker]

I later looked up the ruling for competative REL, after the tournament. I found that it is indeed three minutes, unless anyone can tell me differently. That's what i found out. Judges are also given some leeway. Also a lot of judges really gave some annoyance is when judges gave a wrong ruling and players would correct them. What infuriated me was when i was watching LSV and the guy with junk. They had both swung with goyfs and had some damage get through. Later they call a judge and tell the judges about this. I was pissed. People were getting warnings( they were deserved) such as someone cracking deed and someone using relic while deed was on the stack and the players forgot to exile deed. The judge watching this didn't notice a player noticed. Then they don't even give a warning to something that seems way more serious then placing a card in the wrong zone. I mean even though it wasn't intention the tarmogoyf thing could easily be taken as lying about public information. No warning; no nothing

EDIT: what i took away from this tourney is don't call things on yourself. You get the same penalty if someone calls you out on it, just as much as if you were to call yourself. Until more judges take things like this as honest mistakes I don't believe i will do things that would actively hurt my chances.

[cdr]

I didn't think the reason would have mattered. I was originally in my seat waiting for my opponent. I had been there for about two or so minutes until i realized i had forgot my stuff at another table. Since I have had my stuff stolen at magic tournaments before i wasn't anxious to repeat this. So I grab my stuff, by the time i return I see my opponent has taken my former seat. So I am walking to the seat as the game says time for the round has begun. As the judge says this my opponent screams, "JUDGE!" At this point in time i'm putting my stuff on the ground and sitting down. The guy hasn't presented his deck for me to cut/shuffle, he hasn't even pulled his deck out of his box. I'm issued a game loss.

It sounds like you're not used to playing at competitive events. Your opponent was 100% right to bring attention to the fact that you were not there when you were supposed to be. If you had a good reason, it's your responsibility to explain that to the judge. It doesn't sound like you even tried to explain why you were tardy to the floor judge, much less appeal. Unfortunate, but now you know.


I can't even play a second game. I drove three of four hours to have fun not play some asshole. I guess at the time it didn't occur to me to appeal to the head judge. I can say this, most of the judges were incompetent. Also i witnessed a judge telling someone they would issue their oppenent( who was late) a game loss after 3 minutes if they hadn't shown up. The asshole i sccop ends up with the same record as me and is 32nd. So he wins like 50 bucks. So if i had won that game I could have conceivable won $50. More than likely it would be $100 if i got moderate tie breakers. This was the shortest match ever. I also played TES. But this match lasted less than three minutes.

Your opponent calling a judge for a perfectly good reason is pretty damned far from him being "some asshole". If there's any blame, it's 100% on you.


Players in the SF Bay Area are just like that: the sort of people who argued that Saito wasn't cheating, he was "trying to take advantage of every aspect of the game" and who rules lawyer the shit out of you. You should have appealed.

Er, what?


Your opponent is the kind of ass that gives magic players a bad name and makes me really reconsider even bothering to go to big tournaments, since it's inevitable that I'm put into contact with this kind of player. That said, you really should have appealed it and the judge that gave it to you made a dumb ruling. I think I heard the same judge talking about issuing game losses after "3 minutes" too.

Judges really should at least try to be on the players' side. They aren't there to be our mothers and more retardedly strict rulings just turn more people off from tournaments. This isn't good for the health of the game.

Again, both Rainbow Maker's opponent and the floor judge were doing their jobs. No "assholishness", no "dumb ruling". Rainbow Maker unfortunately didn't do his job - understandable, since a competitive tournament might be a new experience for him - but blaming it on his opponent or the judge is not acceptable.


I later looked up the ruling for competative REL, after the tournament. I found that it is indeed three minutes, unless anyone can tell me differently. That's what i found out. Judges are also given some leeway.
The HJ is free to either use 0 minutes or 3 minutes for tardiness - see the Tardiness section in the IPG. 3 minutes is generally used at more casual events, or when the HJ is unable to adequately see whether everyone is seated from where he's starting the round. Whether 0 minutes or 3 minutes is being used is almost always announced at the start of the event.


Also a lot of judges really gave some annoyance is when judges gave a wrong ruling and players would correct them. What infuriated me was when i was watching LSV and the guy with junk. They had both swung with goyfs and had some damage get through. Later they call a judge and tell the judges about this. I was pissed. People were getting warnings( they were deserved) such as someone cracking deed and someone using relic while deed was on the stack and the players forgot to exile deed. The judge watching this didn't notice a player noticed. Then they don't even give a warning to something that seems way more serious then placing a card in the wrong zone. I mean even though it wasn't intention the tarmogoyf thing could easily be taken as lying about public information. No warning; no nothing

Only infractions listed in the IPG get warnings. Missing a life total change is not always an infraction, though it's possible the judge erred.


EDIT: what i took away from this tourney is don't call things on yourself. You get the same penalty if someone calls you out on it, just as much as if you were to call yourself. Until more judges take things like this as honest mistakes I don't believe i will do things that would actively hurt my chances.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from - that's exactly the wrong way to think. If you notice an infraction and don't call a judge for it, that's Cheating -- Fraud - you're going to get DQed and suspended from sanctioned Magic. And even aside from not cheating, the IPG rewards you for calling things on yourself - you'll usually get a lesser penalty if you notice something and call it on yourself than if someone else notices it and calls it.

[sclabman]

I'm not sure where you're getting that from - that's exactly the wrong way to think. If you notice an infraction and don't call a judge for it, that's Cheating -- Fraud - you're going to get DQed and suspended from sanctioned Magic. And even aside from not cheating, the IPG rewards you for calling things on yourself - you'll usually get a lesser penalty if you notice something and call it on yourself than if someone else notices it and calls it.

Except he can just say he didn't notice anything. Nobody can prove otherwise. Clearly this isn't an honest, fun game at that point. It's taking advantage of the rules. Just like his asshole opponent and the short-sighted ruling. The rules should keep things clean, but also fun. Match loss for being mere seconds late is neither a clean win for his opponent nor fun for the affected.

Having a myopic viewpoint is certainly your prerogative, but it doesn't help the game.

[Artowis]

I have no idea what the actual rules are and get mad when people want to enforce them.

This is why people like Matt Nass get bad-raps. They show up and play and actually hold their opponents to the rules of the game and their opponents get mad when they don't actually know what those rules are. This is like the guy in the other report who slagged off Sam Pardee, I DON"T KNOW TIME MANAGEMENT SO I'LL CALL MY OPPONENT A CUNT BECAUSE HE'S CLEARLY THE ONE AT FAULT.

This is one of the few areas where I think MODO is 1000x better than RL magic.

p.s. You can't actually get rules lawyered anymore if you don't act like a complete donkey in making your case to the judge.

[cdr]

Except he can just say he didn't notice anything. Nobody can prove otherwise. Clearly this isn't an honest, fun game at that point. It's taking advantage of the rules. Just like his asshole opponent and the short-sighted ruling. The rules should keep things clean, but also fun. Match loss for being mere seconds late is neither a clean win for his opponent nor fun for the affected.

Having a myopic viewpoint is certainly your prerogative, but it doesn't help the game.

The head judge does not need hard proof to disqualify you for cheating. There's almost never hard proof of cheating, and especially so with Fraud, which is lying. If he thinks you're lying, you're gone. Head judges of competitive events - and especially of professional events like GPs and PTs - tend to be good at catching liars. It's not in anyone's interest to lie.

There was no match loss. There was a deserved game loss. Everyone else was where they were supposed to be except one person, and this person did not defend himself. Since he didn't say anything, neither the judge nor the opponent could've known he had a valid reason to be tardy.

Consistently enforcing rules preserves the fun for everyone else. Every single infraction is there to preserve fairness and fun.

[Koby]

This is like the guy in the other report who slagged off Sam Pardee, I DON"T KNOW TIME MANAGEMENT SO I'LL CALL MY OPPONENT A CUNT BECAUSE HE'S CLEARLY THE ONE AT FAULT.
.

You mean me. The game did not progress quickly because of his repeated use of SDT. I called the judge after asking him twice to speed up his game and he refused to speed up.

But I'm sure you know all about it, since your arm-chair analysis is perfect and infallible.

[Rainbow Maker]

i did a rather long reply but i got timed out. So let's keep it short. Matt Nass????? Ok the reason why he would call a judge is because he plays so damned slow. So that extra 3 minutes would in all likelyhood make him go to time. I'm so glad he doesn't play top, or CB. At the beginning of the tourney i don't recall them saying if they would enforce 0 or 3 minutes. Also even if they did say, atleast judges let people be 3 minutes late before a game loss. Why would you call yourself on something you would be the only one to know if you will ALWAYS get the most strict enforcement by judges? there is no incentive to calling an error that may or may not be intentional. How can you mock someone and call them stupid because someone is taking half of the game topping? SDT is a horrible card, it always for matches to end up in a draw that shouldn't. but i would expect someone who doesn't play magic to know this. The reason why i called him and asshat is because i was in front of him. Hell even ebenezer scrooge is less of a d bag.

[cdr]

Well, hopefully the catharsis from that rant was helpful for you at least.

[baghdadbob]

This is why people like Matt Nass get bad-raps. They show up and play and actually hold their opponents to the rules of the game and their opponents get mad when they don't actually know what those rules are. This is like the guy in the other report who slagged off Sam Pardee, I DON"T KNOW TIME MANAGEMENT SO I'LL CALL MY OPPONENT A CUNT BECAUSE HE'S CLEARLY THE ONE AT FAULT.

This is one of the few areas where I think MODO is 1000x better than RL magic.

p.s. You can't actually get rules lawyered anymore if you don't act like a complete donkey in making your case to the judge.

You would make for a good lawyer....dick.

[arwall]

itt: people getting excruciatingly furious over players taking advantage of having the ability to call out other players.

if you mistakenly break a rule, bring it to the attention of the head judge; don't go home, realize your mistake, then get angry at the wrong people for why you lost. you lost because you were not at your seat, even given the judges rash penalty; it is your fault.

if you want leniency play at home with friends and smudge the rules all you want.

i myself would be upset at the ruling if it happened to me, but i wouldn't place blame on others for my own mistakes. the reason why you were late to the table was because of poor management anyway; you forgot your stuff at another table. that is your fault as well.

next time be more careful.

[Artowis]

You mean me. The game did not progress quickly because of his repeated use of SDT. I called the judge after asking him twice to speed up his game and he refused to speed up.

But I'm sure you know all about it, since your arm-chair analysis is perfect and infallible.

Since I know what the HJ, Sam and one of the people spectating the match had to say; yes. My analysis was in fact perfect and infallible based on that info. Also if you think you're opponent is playing too slowly, asking twice before calling a judge is a laugh.


rainbow maker rants about stuff

I've done SCG coverage before, so I've likely seen more legacy matches at SCG open tournaments than you. Legacy tends to play slower than most formats regardless of Top and the players definitely play slower regardless of what decks they have. The GGslive guys have confirmed this on numerous occasions. Fun tip: Listen to how bored the commentators are most of the time.

[Rainbow Maker]

I guess i can take responsibility for not being on time. But I could just as easily blame people for not being honest. If that was the case i wouldn't have to worry about my stuff getting stolen. So... SDT didn't get banned in extended due to time reasons... nope. Matt Nass is a slow plower in general. Yes, legacy is a slow format. The point is SDT slows it down more. It becomes a lot easier to have games end up in draws because of it.

[Nessaja]

Fun tip: Listen to how bored the commentators are most of the time.
That partly has to do with the fact that they just have no idea whatsoever they're talking about when it comes to Legacy matches. Common sense, don't put someone on the commentator spot when they don't have a clue what they're giving a commentary about.

[Octopusman]

So back to SCG San Jose.

I personally had a great time.

I did have a question though about warnings I was issued at this event.
My opponent started looking through his whole library after fetching while Aven Mindcensor was in play. The judge was called and we both received warnings. I received a warning because I didn't "catch" him.

So, it would be good practice to verbalize every aspect of the game as it's occurring? Do I really need to say "Please search the top 4" every time someone goes to search? Frankly, if someone picks up their whole deck before I can say anything and I get a warning for it, I'm afraid that leaves me a little perplexed.

I also got a warning during the same round because the player forgot to draw a card during his draw step after he topped at my EOT. If my opponent holds all of their cards in a stack and below the table, they accidentally drop a card, then it is discovered after I cast Hymn, does that mean I would get a warning for not knowing how many cards are in his hands?

I didn't realize that I would have to be all over my opponent like white on rice to keep myself from receiving warnings.


Other than that - Great event! Already dying for another whenever that'll be...

[marax]

You are not allowed to hide your hand cards under the table. A warning is nothing bad. Think of it this way: the warning is issued so that the judges can see if you regularly "miss" triggers on accident. A miss every once in a while - and you receive your warnings and everything is well. But i you build up a history this is a good indicator that you might try to miss them to gain an advantage.

[cdr]

The warning you got was Failure to Maintain Game State, which is just a tracking warning and doesn't upgrade.

"This infraction is committed by a player who has allowed another player in the game to commit a Game Play Error around an effect that he or she does not control and has not pointed it out it before he or she could potentially gain advantage."

The rules hold both players responsible for maintaining the gamestate. You are responsible for catching gameplay errors made by your opponent and calling a judge.

If you call the judge for your opponent's gameplay infraction and you do it as soon as you could've noticed, you don't get a FTMGS warning. Otherwise, you do.

Judges occasionally are on autopilot and forget about the above so you get a FTMGS warning when you shouldn't have, but it's not a big deal. If you're really concerned about an undeserved FTMGS, appeal it - that'll really give the judge a red face ;)