What decks are declining popularity?

[Laertes]

And why?

Zoo was having a very good match up against the field last year ( from Jared Sylvas analysis, if I remember correctly). It had the best (?) matchup against the ever-popular merfolk. Now that the fish people are packing lots of perish/submerge/Kira, was it the simple sideboard change that killed its popularity?

Lands has always been limited by the number of tabernacles, but it seems like nobody is playing it anymore.

Both of these decks have no game against Show n Tell. Is that slim percentage of SnT decks killing these time-tested designs?

What else is dropping in popularity, and why?

If you quit playing one of these, what prompted the change?

[dontbiteitholmes]

And why?

Zoo was having a very good match up against the field last year ( from Jared Sylvas analysis, if I remember correctly). It had the best (?) matchup against the ever-popular merfolk. Now that the fish people are packing lots of perish/submerge/Kira, was it the simple sideboard change that killed its popularity?

Lands has always been limited by the number of tabernacles, but it seems like nobody is playing it anymore.

Both of these decks have no game against Show n Tell. Is that slim percentage of SnT decks killing these time-tested designs?

What else is dropping in popularity, and why?

If you quit playing one of these, what prompted the change?

Zoo- Perish is just way more popular then it was a year ago also Firespout and you have no counters like Merfolk to stop Spout, add to that you get blown out by combo.

Lands- Too slow. Lots of the Mono-U Merfolk decks started packing Back to Basics and even if things go well you will almost always draw at least one round and you get blown out by Price of Progress if Zoo plays it. Also Tabernacle is expensive for a deck that hasn't been putting up results and you scoop to combo no matter what.

SnT- Perish kills Progen, Jace bounces Emrakul (and Show and Telled Knight has time to fetch Karakas if they have it and Show and Telled land gives them Jace/Perish mana even if you drop it turn 3 on the play) and a lot of the top decks play one or the other then counters stop them both and randomly Show and Tell will bite you.

That's my take. At SCG Opens if you can't beat Merfolk and Jace you might as well draft. Lands would probably be more popular if not for Tabernacle but the people with Tabernacles tend to play top tier decks and when Lands is viewed as not being top tier it doesn't show up. It would probably do fairly well though at SCGs at least since the top tables are so Goblins/Merfolk heavy but then again all it takes is one random Lackey->Wasteland or Vial to blow you out sometimes.

[sdematt]

I think Lands is in a good position to do well again, but like you said, the cost of having 1-2 Tabernacles and the fact the deck doesn't play quickly is a major strike against it. I have the Tabernacles necessary, but going to time all the time isn't appealing, and Storm becoming more popular as Tribal does doesn't help our situation.

Zoo should make a comeback, but I think they're playing other Tribal at the moment. Zoo is really good, but maybe other decks are keeping it from reaching top tables.

-Matt

[Humphrey]

add to that, that lands is awful to play. Its boring and slow as hell. Even when the opp is locked out of the game it takes ages to win and you often get a draw.
I think the fast version of Zoo has chances (1 drops+Goyf), but it seems everybody tries to play the big zoo which is in my opinon a bad bant-ish deck.

With survival gone i think merfolk is the strongest deck in legacy and im really surprised goblins did so well, but this might change when people start playing more plagues.

[(nameless one)]

What about 43Land's cousin? Scapeshift Junk? Would that deck do better against tribal?

[mchainmail]

Lands- Too slow. Lots of the Mono-U Merfolk decks started packing Back to Basics and even if things go well you will almost always draw at least one round and you get blown out by Price of Progress if Zoo plays it. Also Tabernacle is expensive for a deck that hasn't been putting up results and you scoop to combo no matter what.

Seriously, don't make up stuff about decks you don't play or don't understand. It makes you look like a fool. Lands doesn't lose to Price if the pilot knows what he is doing. It really almost never happens. Experienced Lands players can lock the game with only a handful of lands on the field, and then find Zuran Orb to close the game out. I know I make it sound easy, but it really is that easy.

Fish doesn't really play Back to Basics now anyways, and although it's a bad card to see opposing Lands, it's not unbeatable. I haven't seen it showing up in many fish decks at all.

Scoop to combo is true. So be it. I'm 12-4 in 4 MODO Daily events, losing to: Ooze, ANT, Dredge, Painter. Aka, 4 combo decks.

I've drawn 7 out of 69 matches over the past 6 months, and most of those were playing against other slow decks, such as Thopters or The Rock variants. (meaning it was both player's faults.)

[dahcmai]

I actually used to play Aegis of Honor to hose out Price of Progress. Amazing how quick Zoo players start holding cards and never playing them again when you dump that out. Zuran Orb is the best though and takes the least amount of board space. Price is only bad if they catch you off guard when playing Lands. I worried about it, but rarely died to it.

Coralhelm made the largest difference in merfolk giving it a large edge. It's amazing what an extra lord can do. Zoo is probably held back by the fact that these midrange decks are actually fairly popular despite not being a prime choice. Storm of course is always lurking waiting for the Merfolk's heavy counter suite to lighten up a little. Zoo also really does have a problem with those S&T decks. Not much they can do about a 2nd or 3rd turn Emrakul.

I figure that the Humility decks are going to make a comeback. It is about time considering all the creatures roaming around waiting to be preyed upon and that deck is already godlike vs other control decks.

[mchainmail]

I actually used to play Aegis of Honor to hose out Price of Progress. Amazing how quick Zoo players start holding cards and never playing them again when you dump that out. Zuran Orb is the best though and takes the least amount of board space. Price is only bad if they catch you off guard when playing Lands. I worried about it, but rarely died to it.

Coralhelm made the largest difference in merfolk giving it a large edge. It's amazing what an extra lord can do. Zoo is probably held back by the fact that these midrange decks are actually fairly popular despite not being a prime choice. Storm of course is always lurking waiting for the Merfolk's heavy counter suite to lighten up a little. Zoo also really does have a problem with those S&T decks. Not much they can do about a 2nd or 3rd turn Emrakul.

I figure that the Humility decks are going to make a comeback. It is about time considering all the creatures roaming around waiting to be preyed upon and that deck is already godlike vs other control decks.

Thanks for that; I'm playing CoP: Red in my lands board online to deal with all of the cheap burn decks, but this seems a little better.

[(nameless one)]

But doesn't Landstill deck suck against Zoo and Goblins anyways? Maybe Quinn will finally show up in a SCG top 8. That deck has positive matchup against aggro and an okay matchup against combo. Although if other control decks start showing up, I doubt that would happen. Quinn has such miserable matchup against other control decks.

[Rico Suave]

Lands struggles to defeat an opponent who includes Jace in his or her deck.

[Pastorofmuppets]

That's my take. At SCG Opens if you can't beat Merfolk and Jace you might as well draft. .

If this is true, I should be able to rustle everyone's jimmies with Ichorid, no?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Seriously, don't make up stuff about decks you don't play or don't understand. It makes you look like a fool. Lands doesn't lose to Price if the pilot knows what he is doing. It really almost never happens. Experienced Lands players can lock the game with only a handful of lands on the field, and then find Zuran Orb to close the game out. I know I make it sound easy, but it really is that easy.

Fish doesn't really play Back to Basics now anyways, and although it's a bad card to see opposing Lands, it's not unbeatable. I haven't seen it showing up in many fish decks at all.

Scoop to combo is true. So be it. I'm 12-4 in 4 MODO Daily events, losing to: Ooze, ANT, Dredge, Painter. Aka, 4 combo decks.

I've drawn 7 out of 69 matches over the past 6 months, and most of those were playing against other slow decks, such as Thopters or The Rock variants. (meaning it was both player's faults.)

Lands can always lose to Zoo with Price. Nothing is a given but Price gives a lot of reach and Zoo is a fast deck. I meant to say Price can blow you out not to imply it's a given that Zoo will win if they play Price but as you can see in my post I didn't exactly take my time writing it.

I've noticed B2B showing up in mono-U fish recently as of less than a month ago. Granted it could be a fluke but every mono-U Merfolk deck I played at Kansas City played B2B against me (much to my surprise) and I saw it was in the mono-U list that top 16'd.

Drawing only 10% of your matches with Lands is quite a feat, what about games that end 1-0 at time? I wouldn't exactly come at me saying I look like a fool when the only real disagreement is Price vs. Lands. I think anyone who has ever been to a big event and walked around at the end of a round can agree that Lands going to time is a very common thing.


If this is true, I should be able to rustle everyone's jimmies with Ichorid, no?
I said

At SCG Opens if you can't beat Merfolk and Jace you might as well draft.
Not, all you have to beat is Merfolk and Jace but seriously, if your deck can't beat Merfolk and Jace you won't have a chance at an SCG event. That of course doesn't mean if your deck can beat those 2 decks it is a good choice. Also Ichorid is rarely a good idea outside of small events.

[Wanderlust]

Lands struggles to defeat an opponent who includes Jace in his or her deck.

I disagree. First of all, Lands can often keep the Jace-wielder from getting to 4 mana to play it in the first place. Also, a lot of Lands builds run Celestial Colonnade or Creeping Tar Pit, which are awesome at killing Jace. Thirdly, Jace's ultimate doesn't guarantee a win - indefinite Academy Ruins recursion can keep the Lands player from decking. Finally, Engineered Explosives (which can be recurred with Academy Ruins or tutored for with Tolaria West) can kill Jace.

[sdematt]

Coralhelm definitely does make Merfolk a bunch better, as does the black splash for Perish. White gives them Absolute Law/Swords against Zoo/Gobbos, but I'm thinking black is better.

Lands is a good deck, but I'm thinking it's coming down more to cost at the moment. People who don't have Tabernacles are probably either going to have to borrow them or not play the deck, and not everyone has a playgroup with a keeper of the sacred Tabernacle.

I can definitely see Humility based decks coming back. Not sure if Quinn is the answer, but I played Dutch Stax before Vengevine and did quite well (during Reanimator's reign). Again, Stax is inconsistent to say the least, and I'd say it's short of a card to push it over the edge into more mainstream playability. If something could fix the consistency issues more than Crystal Ball, the deck would be pretty boss. Even without that, Humility shuts down many decks in the format, as does Moat, and I think this is why Thopters does decently well. Haven't seen much Thopters on the radar, but fetchable Moat/Humility seems alright.

-Matt

[Crysthorn]

Humility shuts down many decks in the format, as does Moat
Humility yes, but I wouldn't be so sure about Moat - OK, it stops goblins, but merfolks can fly over it with Coralhelm Commander and decks like Zoo, Bant, New Horizons, GWB Junk or Laskin's Green & Taxes either run Pridemages already or can have them in the sideboard. I'd rather rely on Humility than on Moat.

[The Treefolk Master]

When you drop Moat agains't Merfolk, the only way they can kill you is with Coralhelm Commander. As you're running Moat, you're definetly running 4 Swords and likely 2 Path to Exile, plus other destruction such as EE or WoG. You should be able to stop Commander most of the time.

[DragoFireheart]

I'd rather run Humility, Firespout to kill the 1/1s and Ensnaring Bridge to stall them early on.

Some people diss running bridge w/ humility, but it can work. Also, some diss thopters due to Krosan owning them.

[Piceli89]

It kills me to say this, but I fear Storm Combo is going to slowly decline once the metagame has fully shifted back to Counterbalance vs Merfolk vs Zoo,with discard-heavy Rock in the middle. This is already happening.

[Rico Suave]

I disagree. First of all, Lands can often keep the Jace-wielder from getting to 4 mana to play it in the first place. Also, a lot of Lands builds run Celestial Colonnade or Creeping Tar Pit, which are awesome at killing Jace. Thirdly, Jace's ultimate doesn't guarantee a win - indefinite Academy Ruins recursion can keep the Lands player from decking. Finally, Engineered Explosives (which can be recurred with Academy Ruins or tutored for with Tolaria West) can kill Jace.

That sounds like a struggle to me. Trying not to deck with Academy Ruins after being Mind Sculpted ranks up there with "hope my opponent doesn't attack this turn" in desperate game plans.

What happens when the Jace player also has...other cards beyond Jace?

[Crysthorn]

When you drop Moat agains't Merfolk, the only way they can kill you is with Coralhelm Commander. As you're running Moat, you're definetly running 4 Swords and likely 2 Path to Exile, plus other destruction such as EE or WoG. You should be able to stop Commander most of the time.
You seem to forget that merfolk run a shitload of counters for your StPs/PtEs - from FoW to Spell Pierce to Daze to Cursecatcher. Humility not only shuts down Coralhelm Commander (and the further need to use removal on him), it also shuts down Cursecatcher, and - much more importantly - Qasali Pridemage in non-merfolk decks.
Humility is a double-edged sword that could do harm to you as much as to your opponent, but it fights most creature-based aggro decks better than Moat.

[Tammit67]

Drawing only 10% of your matches with Lands is quite a feat, what about games that end 1-0 at time? I wouldn't exactly come at me saying I look like a fool when the only real disagreement is Price vs. Lands. I think anyone who has ever been to a big event and walked around at the end of a round can agree that Lands going to time is a very common thing.



He usually wins game 1, then stalls out game 2 for the 1-0 victory. Not saying Mike doesn't advance the board state, but trying to force a win on that game 2 is not what happens.

Lands do have a problem with Players whose only goal is to land, protect, and ult with jace. Similarly, New Horizons list can be very hard to deal with when the opponent knows what he needs to do in order to not get wasted out of the game. It is much harder to keep a player off 4 mana when they do not crack fetches. Lands plays tar pit because this is such a problem, but it does not entirely solve the problem

[dahcmai]

Jace was always a problem for Lands. I used the White Leyline in conjunction with Pithing Needle to keep him off me, but it wasn't a really good fix. Usually they got out of that in a short time. Jace just sucks to see when you play lands so the only way to deal with him was stall hard until you could get Barbarian Ring online and then pummel him. Control decks have a hell of a time dealing with that and tend to stop trying it after you kill the first one. It's just tricky getting there. I really don't like seeing Jace if I played Lands. It's like seeing Counterbalance when playing storm. It's going to happen, you just deal with it as best as possible.

As for Humility, I wasn't really talking about Quinn, though I do like that deck. Here's what I played in GP Chicago. It's a little different than most you see. If it killed a little faster, I would play it all the time. I had problems with it going to time a lot. I had three draws in Chicago and I'm an extremely fast player if it tells you something. It's amazingly good though. People just tend to sit and stare at the table a lot when they see it trying to figure out what they are playing against.

It needs to be updated since I haven't played it since then. Elspeth and Cunning Wish were in it at the time, but this list changes a lot. You get the basic idea though. Elspeth will go back in and Mishra's is going to change to Inkmoth Nexus. A quicker kill might bring this back to my table anyway.

WTF control
1 Crucible Of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chrome Mox
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Counterbalance
1 Moat
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares
1 Humility
1 Wrath Of God
4 Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Academy ruins
3 Jace


Sideboard:
Engineered Explosives
Tormod's Crypt
Seal Of Cleansing
Counterspell
Circle Of Protection: Red
Moat
Rule of Law
Threads of Disloyalty
Blood Moon
2 Hydroblast
Pulse Of The Fields
Pithing Needle
1 Aura Of Silence
Aura Fracture


You can tell I used to be a heavy Vintage player. It's very reminiscent of old 5 color control decks.

[Antonius]

the real barrier to playing lands, after cost, is skill and patience. You have to play, a lot, a lot, then lose, a lot, a lot, before you really start getting a grasp of how to play it and start winning. Most people will give up after the first couple go-rounds.


That sounds like a struggle to me. Trying not to deck with Academy Ruins after being Mind Sculpted ranks up there with "hope my opponent doesn't attack this turn" in desperate game plans.

What happens when the Jace player also has...other cards beyond Jace?

Obviously, if your opponent had turn 1 top, turn 2 CB, turn 4 Jace, you're going to be in trouble unless you kept a hand with double tolaria West. Generally, though, the jace deck only has 5 other threats they can field at a time: 4 tarmogoyfs and Vendillion clique. Permanently nullifying those is not difficult.

The other card you're referring to is usually wasteland. But decks that pack Jace and Wasteland generally don't run CB--which means that they can't do anything to stop you from destroying their entire manabase, or loaming til you get EE+ ruins or loaming til you get more mazes and factories than they have blockers. The hardest Jace matchup then is Dreadstill.