Article: Eternal on the Other Side of the Ocean: Playing and Sideboarding CAB Jace

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Well, here's the second article about CAB - Jace, fewer explications more suggestions as to how to play the deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21037_Eternal_on_the_Other_Side_of_the_Ocean_Playing_and_Sideboarding_with_Jace.html

Let me know what you think, especially what was good and what you didn't like. Wanna make these as enjoyable as possible after all. As for questions, ask away!

[Catitas]

Well, here's the second article about CAB - Jace, fewer explications more suggestions as to how to play the deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21037_Eternal_on_the_Other_Side_of_the_Ocean_Playing_and_Sideboarding_with_Jace.html

Let me know what you think, especially what was good and what you didn't like. Wanna make these as enjoyable as possible after all. As for questions, ask away!

You're basically teaching everyone to play with the deck...Thats really cool! Congrats for the article and keep up!

[DragoFireheart]

I don't understand why I would want to play this deck. It loses badly to combo: isn't there a better deck that has good control and aggro matchups but also has better combo matchup than CAV Jace? I also don't like how this deck is very vulerable to Pithing Needle.

[Catitas]

I don't understand why I would want to play this deck. It loses badly to combo: isn't there a better deck that has good control and aggro matchups but also has better combo matchup than CAV Jace? I also don't like how this deck is very vulerable to Pithing Needle.

Cuning wish there for something... you'll need needle on explosives and jace, wish for blow on neddle on explosives then recurr with ruins...needle is even better against countertop and no one complains about it... you can repeal it, you have the same amount of answers to it, less explosives...

Although i pack a krosan and a harmonic convergence side to deal with specific matchups and still work for those problems, i cut extirpate i dont like it, doesnt do a thing now...

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@Catitas: That's what I hoped to do with the article, sweet if it works. Thanks for the props :)
Concerning Extirpate, if there isn't too much Loam around, this can definitely be cut. I don't see what you need Grip for. If CWish resolves through CB, DBlow should, too (sure, they can't FoW it, but as long as they don't know your exact decklist they might as well force the Wish). As for Convergence, if you see a lot of Enchantress that definitely has merit.

@DragoFireheart: What other deck in the format has extremely good matchups against Goblins, Merfolk and pretty much any other non-Loam aggro-deck while at the same time being significantly favored against any form of Counterbalance deck? Personally, I don't know any. Sure, you pay these favorable matchups with bad Storm/Dredge-matchups and a general weakness to combo, but that seems reasonable at the moment, far more so than accepting <50% matches against Fish and Goblins (like pretty much any CB list I've seen), each of which seems to make up more of the metagame alone than all the combo-decks do combined.
As for the weakness to Needle, I have yet to lose to having both EE and Jace needled (though I lost one game where all six solutions to Needle on Jace happened to be in the last 19 cards of my library). As Catitas said, Cunning Wish makes it quite possible to get rid of Needles if the need arises. That doesn't mean Needle isn't annoying, but it's not something you just lose to.

[Crysthorn]

OK, so you play Jace, bu your opponent counters it and then plays Extirpate on Jace. Do you just scoop immediately or is there any reasonable alternative win condition that I fail to notice?

[SMR0079]

It's been cool to see the development of this original deck that is actualy competitive in non-combo metas. Unfortunatly, there is to much combo in my area to justify it. However, you can apply a few of it's tactics in a modiifed counterbalance shell to improve your tribal mathcups while still retaining good game against storm combo.

The "Intuitive Fire Counterbalance" list is one I have been wanting to try.

[Aggro_zombies]

OK, so you play Jace, bu your opponent counters it and then plays Extirpate on Jace. Do you just scoop immediately or is there any reasonable alternative win condition that I fail to notice?
Your opponent loses because he is playing Extirpate.

Seriously, though, the only decks these days that play both counters and Extirpates are bad varieties of Landstill that don't have a lot of ways to also beat Punishing Fire.

[Crysthorn]

Seriously, though, the only decks these days that play both counters and Extirpates are bad varieties of Landstill that don't have a lot of ways to also beat Punishing Fire.
So replace "counters it" with "Duresses/Thoughtseizes it", "Vindicates it" or just "kills it", whatever. My point is: what is this deck's gameplan when Jace gets Extirpated? Because killing the opponent with Punishing Fire doesn't sound reasonable to me at all.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@SRM0079: Thanks for the thumbs up, gotta hate the combo-meta ;) And yes, the defensive engines this deck has can definitely be ported into a CB-shell to help deal with Tribal. I made similar suggestions here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19651-%5BDeck%5D-Ugwr-Intuition-CounterTop).

@ Crysthorn: Considering how few Extirpates get played, the problem rarely comes up (I haven't had that happen to me a single time, and I've been playing this for a year, though with breaks). Against the decks where it does, you can probably win by actually Firing them out anyway if necessary, especially because they're giving up cards to Extirpate stuff. If you're really that afraid of Extirpate, though, run a White Sun's Dawn in the sideboard to Wish for (something I'm going to try out anyway, simply because it means I can Brainstorm even longer, which is just sweet).

[GGoober]

Your opponent loses because he is playing Extirpate.

Seriously, though, the only decks these days that play both counters and Extirpates are bad varieties of Landstill that don't have a lot of ways to also beat Punishing Fire.

Except Extirpate does not beat Punishing Fire unless the PFire-Grove player does not know how to use his engine.

How many landstill lists still pack Extirpates these days post reanimator/Survival era? Landstill 2 ages back with Extirpate was a good call against such a meta, but as long as there's not much GY-based strategy, there's no need for Extirpate to be played. Interestingly, Welder-PainterServant lists are getting popular, and Extirpate will be a key card against such decks (v.s. Intuition)

@Crysthorn: Killing your opponents with PFires is do-able, and lists playing PFires do so as well. It's slow as hell because you have to exchange damage across threats/Jace2's and your opponents, but having the option to win via non-Jace is valuable. Obviously, since you don't play this deck as much, you fail to realize how more important it is to protect Jace than other decks when playing CABJace. Obviously, the creator of the deck knows that bulk of the strategy of his deck is built to protect Jace because that is his primary and perhaps only feasible win-condition. With this in mind, you can see how the maindeck trumps any aggro-list favorably, while having weaker matchups in combo (which does nothing to Jace). Extirpate and rock-decks are perhaps the only decks that can handle JAce with Vindicate/Pulse, but these decks are mid-ranged, and by then, this control-variant has already created locks from raw card-advantage. If your Jace does get extirpated, then you're facing a small portion of the Legacy meta that decided to play extirpate in a meta of Zoo, Gobs, Fish, Countertop (which is a bad choice to play extirpate and all you can do is what the usual saying goes 'Shit happens').

[DragoFireheart]

Wait, how does Punishing Fire not lose to Extirpate?

[JCLe]

Wait, how does Punishing Fire not lose to Extirpate?

I'd guess you can use Grove's mana ability in response to the extirpate and get the Fire back, don't quote me on this though.

[dschalter]

I'd guess you can use Grove's mana ability in response to the extirpate and get the Fire back, don't quote me on this though.

Yup, you can use mana abilities at time and the triggered ability will then go the stack and resolve before the Extirpate.

[GGoober]

However, if you only have 1 Grove and try to return PFires, your opponent can Extirpate. If you suspect Extirpates, you would need 2 Groves if you want to pro-actively return PFires, otherwise let your opponents fall into the trick on trying to Extirpate PFires, then you tap Groves (mana abilities don't use stack), gain the life, trigger on stack (triggered abilities get past split second), and return PFires.

@Mon: looking forward to hear testing for White Sun. I'm considering it as a win-con in Wishstill. For the same mana cost, you don't draw a card from a cycled Decree, but you force out quite a lot of P/T on the board for a good win or stabilizing effect and recycles itself to be found soon again with Tops and a thinned out control-player-library :P. Although Decree = uncounterable, but I can see this card house Gobs/Merfolks to some extent (assuming no LoA), still a slow card though :/

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

The Extirpate-explanations seem clear enough.

@Metalwalker: There is absolutely no reason for me to compare it to Decree - you can't Wish for Decree :p This does look pretty sick, though, eight mana gives you 10 damage eot and, important for a Wish wincon, even if the tokens get killed, you can try again later (so nice if you don't have to pay attention to keeping your wincon alive). I probably wouldn't run either MD, though the more I think about it, the more I want to say this is better than Decree even MD. 2/2s trade with so much more stuff than 1/1s...

[GGoober]

Mon, I've considered this card when it is spoiled, but the only thing barring me from playing it is not really the manacost (WWW can be problematic though). The problem for me is it's definitely a Wishboard card (i.e. you don't want this in the MD), but when you do Wish for it, you usually won't get enough value if you intend to Wish->WSZ get tokens on the same turn. As such, you tend to Wish EOT, and either dump out tokens on your turn or lose the surprise factor due to the Wish.

That's the only problem I see with this card :/ Ideally, you want to catch your opponent's aggro by surprise put out a bunch of 2/2 to block dudes and swing in next turn. But this surprise factor can only happen feasibly if you MD the card, which is a weak MD card. If you wish for it, you usually have to pass the turn or you're losing a potential 6 power (from Wish's cost), which is quite relevant, otherwise a fine card.

Let me know what you think or if you playtest, the result and how it should e played.

EDIT: yes this card is definitely better than Decree if you don't play Standstill :P But we all know how Landstill players like their Standstills. But in terms of mana:board position ratio, this card definitely gives a lot for the mana investment at instant speed.