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View Full Version : Something I never understood: why isn't counterbalance used in Vintage?



DragoFireheart
01-31-2011, 10:54 AM
Counterbalance, from what little research I have done, is hardly used in Vintage. For you Vintage players/experts out there, could you explain this to me? Isn't the curve of the Vintage format right in the 0-3 CMC range?

aahz
01-31-2011, 11:17 AM
Counterbalance doesn't come down fast enough in Vintage. Sure you could get the fetchland/Sapphire or Lotus draw, but even in that case you probably don't have the mana yet for Top so you're hoping to hit blindly with Counterbalance (and if you do have the mana you should be doing something broken instead). A Mana Drain would be better in that situation. Also, note that Brainstorm is restricted so dumping the correct card on top of your deck without an active Top is slightly more difficult. CounterTop is too clunky for Vintage because it's slow to set up, requires a pile of potentially dead cards (extra CBs and Tops), and lacks Brainstorm as a 4-of. Basically, by the time you set it up, your opponent has either killed you or locked you out, and if for some reason they haven't, you probably would have won without the Counterbalance.

Edit: It's also worth noting that Counterbalance will rarely counter bombs that are 3+ CMC like Will, Tinker, Necro, Bargain, Jace, Gush, etc., and these are often the must counter spells.

Nihil Credo
01-31-2011, 12:06 PM
Also, the part of the metagame that all but ignores Counterbalance is quite a bit larger than in Legacy/Extended (mainly Stax and Dredge)

(nameless one)
01-31-2011, 12:15 PM
Also, the part of the metagame that all but ignores Counterbalance is quite a bit larger than in Legacy/Extended (mainly Stax and Dredge)

And BUG fish... apparently its the Merfolk of Type1.

death
01-31-2011, 12:58 PM
Aside from Stax and Dredge steam rolling it, you can probably just hit Oath or TPS once you get it online. But it won't stop Tinker or Jace unless your deck is crap with lots of 3-4 cc.

Rico Suave
01-31-2011, 02:24 PM
In addition to what has already been written, it must be noted that Vintage is much less forgiving.

In Legacy, if a 1G spell slips through your CB/Top lock it will probably be a Tarmogoyf and you have 5 turns to answer it. In Vintage, if a 1G spell slips through your CB/Top lock it will probably be an Oath of Druids and you have 1 turn to answer it.

conboy31
01-31-2011, 04:10 PM
It is rare, but I see it crop up occasionally. Maybe in a fish type deck or stifle/naught.

IIRC Owen T busted it out of his SB vs. me in vintage at KC nationals around '08. I was on Ubg(x?) oath and he was playing a version of The Deck.

Nidd
02-01-2011, 03:08 AM
Manacost are also a bit more diversified, making it harder to hit the right stuff with your CB.

dontbiteitholmes
02-01-2011, 03:45 AM
Already been said but yeah, Stax and Dredge don't care about Counterbalance, it comes down to slow for combo, the cmcs are too diversified in Control, and every deck that isn't one of those runs Null Rod which blanks Top.