Mindcast: a mill deck

[arwall]

Milling.

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
6 Swamp
7 Island

Having more lands than you actually need is definitely not a bad thing with this deck. The more you can play, the better.

4 Mind Funeral
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable

4 Duress
4 Twincast
4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike

4 Dark Ritual
4 Propaganda
2 Diabolic Vision

2 Nemesis of Reason

Turn1: Swamp into Duress to see what they've got and to hopefully punch a hole in their strategy early on in the game.
Turn2: Island+Swamp into Glimpse the Unthinkable.
Turn3: Island+Island+Swamp into Mind Funeral
Turn4: Polluted Delta into Island + Swamp into Glimpse the Unthinkable
Turn5: Island + Island + Island + Island + Swamp into Mind Funeral + Twincast

You've just put them down at least 32 cards, with at least 12 of them being lands and with that turn one Duress, have hopefully taken out one of their counters. It is true that you help them a bit by thinning out their deck, but in my experience with this type of quick milling, they are on such a hard pressed clock that they have almost no way of winning unless they can counter you on turn two, but even then, you have seen what they've got with the Duress, so you should be fairly safe knowing what they've got.

Nothing in SB as of yet because I'm still working on the main deck portion of this.

Any thoughts? Better counters? Anything to improve?

EDIT:

I could also introduce Show and Tell into the deck and use it to play Soulquake. This would really turn the game in my favor; it'd send back whatever creature they decide to send out - if they choose a creature - and all the rest they have out on the field, and in the best conditions, I'd probably get to see what they'd want to win the game with.

Any thoughts into this? I don't think it's for this deck, but it's definitely something to think about if you're running a very thin deck creature-wise.

EDIT2: "Each player may choose an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card..."

Well, there goes that idea. I saw Soulquake and instantly thought of Show and Tell without putting too much thought into it.

[kiblast]

I think that in 2011 Mtg community is ready to understand that Milling is not a competitive (and fun) way to win, unless you go HelmVoid or Painter Stone.
Moreover, I think that goldfishing with perfect hands on turn 5 is not fast enough for current metagame.

[arwall]

Put two fast milling decks up against each other and it'd be a great game.

Get someone who isn't looking forward to it, and yeah, I agree, it's no fun. With that said, however, I do think that it is a very serious contender with most metas in the current Legacy format. If you can make someone mill out every FoW they've got or StP, I think you've built a pretty fine deck.

It is probably the single most devastating disrupt in the game, unless of course, you are playing against a Reanimator deck and they reanimate something like an Emrakul, then you're pretty screwed.

Otherwise, I think that the meta is a pretty okay way to win.

I will try and re-do the deck, though, to being a Legacy-friendly deck. Maybe cut down the Mind Funerals to two and completely phase out the Glimpse the Unthinkables, only using the MF's for a decent mid-game control-type set up, to try and save some time to throw together some sort of big move.

All in all, I would probably never bring this deck into a competitive Legacy venue. It is just a really great mill deck that I thought I'd share.

[rufus]

I think that in 2011 Mtg community is ready to understand that Milling is not a competitive (and fun) way to win, unless you go HelmVoid or Painter Stone.

You forgot Brainfreeze/Stroke of Genius, but this definitely belongs in casual.

[Link Ramirez]

... Milling is not a competitive (and fun) way...

I had a couple of 7/8 Tarmogoyf earlier today thanks to my oppenent playing Mind Funeral. That was fun, somehow.

[arwall]

I had a couple of 7/8 Tarmogoyf earlier today thanks to my oppenent playing Mind Funeral. That was fun, somehow.
Exactly.

There are so many ways to completely own a milling deck. I have absolutely no way to defend myself if you actually manage to get anything out. I've only got one creature, and it's pretty easy to get rid of.

EDIT: Other than Glacial Chasm. :P

EDIT2: Milling could also be a fantastic way to pump up ones own Goyf. Splash green into this deck and add in a Goyf or two and you've got yourself a pretty dangerous deck.

[Grymer]

you just cry after you have played like 1 Mind Funeral and 2 Glimpse the Unthinkable into emrakul...

i think the only good mill deck is painter stone... 2 cards combo.. and you will see emrakuls if he play them after the first try to mill him...

in your option you can make like 4 mill spells into emrakul... and you have done nothing..

[arwall]

you just cry after you have played like 1 Mind Funeral and 2 Glimpse the Unthinkable into emrakul...

i think the only good mill deck is painter stone... 2 cards combo.. and you will see emrakuls if he play them after the first try to mill him...

in your option you can make like 4 mill spells into emrakul... and you have done nothing..

The Emrakul problem exists and is why a mill deck should be considered viable and fun. My opponent has nothing to worry about if they've got something in their deck that even has a similar ability, i.e. "When X is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library."

Milling is top of the line control as far as I am concerned.

[perm]

You have two creatures, so all your opponents spot removal will be concentrated on them. You lose all virtual CA with that a 0 creature deck would bring and just waste mana/cards by playing your creatures.

[GGoober]

I had a couple of 7/8 Tarmogoyf earlier today thanks to my oppenent playing Mind Funeral. That was fun, somehow.


Amusingly, 7/8 Goyf puts a faster clock than the a non-Painter, non-Helmvoid mill-dedicated decklist:P

EDIT: 7/8 Goyf puts a faster clock than a Painter or Helmvoid deck.

[SpeedOfDark]

If you can make someone mill out every FoW they've got or StP, I think you've built a pretty fine deck. It is probably the single most devastating disrupt in the game, unless of course, you are playing against a Reanimator deck and they reanimate something like an Emrakul, then you're pretty screwed.
Ok I need to stop you right there :P That is a common stastical misconception regarding magic.

Milling someone is not a form of disruption by any reasonable definition of "disruption." Without bothering to get into the mathematics, consider that when milling an opponent you have an equal chance of milling a "bad" card (which is an advantage to the opponent), than you have of milling a "good" card (which is a disadvantage to the opponent). And since you have an equal chance of getting rid of high value cards as you do of getting them closer to them, your expected net effect in terms of disruption is zero. Against most opponents the only effect of milling is giving the same information to both players regarding the likeliness of what cards are to come (for example, if a card is x4 in the graveyard, it won't come up, whereas a card not in the graveyard is very likely to come up), and eating away at one of the "life" resources of your opponent which is the number of cards in his deck.

There are some exceptions of course where milling is relevant disruption (or help) such as stacking of library (top, scry, brainstorm, etc), interacting with the graveyard, etc, but these are irrelevant against most opponents.

Just thought I would mention that... :P

[arwall]

Ok I need to stop you right there :P That is a common stastical misconception regarding magic.

Milling someone is not a form of disruption by any reasonable definition of "disruption." Without bothering to get into the mathematics, consider that when milling an opponent you have an equal chance of milling a "bad" card (which is an advantage to the opponent), than you have of milling a "good" card (which is a disadvantage to the opponent). And since you have an equal chance of getting rid of high value cards as you do of getting them closer to them, your expected net effect in terms of disruption is zero. Against most opponents the only effect of milling is giving the same information to both players regarding the likeliness of what cards are to come (for example, if a card is x4 in the graveyard, it won't come up, whereas a card not in the graveyard is very likely to come up), and eating away at one of the "life" resources of your opponent which is the number of cards in his deck.

There are some exceptions of course where milling is relevant disruption (or help) such as stacking of library (top, scry, brainstorm, etc), interacting with the graveyard, etc, but these are irrelevant against most opponents.

Just thought I would mention that... :P
If I mill through your land, you have nothing to do, so unless you have something that puts all of your cards back into your library, that's game.

Mind Funeral + Twincast is 8 lands. If I only get rid of 8 lands and nothing else, that is awesome, but that isn't going to statistically happen -- what I'm going for with Mind Funeral is getting rid of land mostly, not just cards.

This is why I'm going to reevaluate the deck and only include two MF's and pretty much just redo the entire deck.

[troopatroop]

Milling is top of the line control as far as I am concerned.

Well, then you've got alot to learn. Magic is about the board, and Milling doesn't help you at ALL, until it wins you the game. Your comments show a fundamental lack of critical analysis of the game. You should keep an open mind about things.

[NukeMoose]

If I mill through your land, you have nothing to do, so unless you have something that puts all of your cards back into your library, that's game.



aExcept for the lands I've already played and the rest of my land in my library. Most decks run at least 16 land, so milling 8 (and about 22 other cards in the process) leaves exactly the same ratio of 8 land and 22 spells left. You've done nothing important until you mill ALL of the cards and force me to draw.

There are only a few decks that rely on 1 or 2 spells to win the game (and also can't recurr anything). Like if you mill 4 Goblin Charbelchers and 3 Empty the Warrens you might be doing well against Belcher. But that's an extreme example that is still very unlikely (and who cares about good matchups vs Belcher?).

Most decks don't need to cast all 4 StP's or FoW's to beat you. Goyf decks would be much better off if they started the game with half their library in their graveyard. Even more so with Reanimator or Dredge.

[arwall]

Well, then you've got alot to learn. Magic is about the board, and Milling doesn't help you at ALL, until it wins you the game. Your comments show a fundamental lack of critical analysis of the game. You should keep an open mind about things.
Milling, in terms of doing it in line with other counter spells, is definitely an intelligent way to play. Not having it be as heavy like in this deck, of course, but having it on the back burner doesn't sound too bad to me.

I am still fairly new to Legacy and really only have myself to come up with ideas because I only play with people every so often on OCTGN, so I'm not trying to seem as hard headed as I am probably seeming. I realize that milling is not the best way to win a game and that it definitely has its drawbacks, but in terms of having milling be a way to get rid of some things, it is definitely good for that.

I mean, you could run Goyf and Vengevine and mill yourself hoping to get rid of some Vengevines in the process.

@NukeMoose: Yes, I agree, and I have taken all of this into consideration for Mindcast 2.0.

[perm]

Milling, in terms of doing it in line with other counter spells, is definitely an intelligent way to play. Not having it be as heavy like in this deck, of course, but having it on the back burner doesn't sound too bad to me.
How is it possibly intelligent? what advantages does it have over a combo wincon with control? Milling does not help your control until your opponent loses from it.



I am still fairly new to Legacy and really only have myself to come up with ideas because I only play with people every so often on OCTGN, so I'm not trying to seem as hard headed as I am probably seeming. I realize that milling is not the best way to win a game and that it definitely has its drawbacks, but in terms of having milling be a way to get rid of some things, it is definitely good for that.

What does it get rid of? It is not good at that at all. Mill has NO inherent control


I mean, you could run Goyf and Vengevine and mill yourself hoping to get rid of some Vengevines in the process.

That's an absolutely inefficient use of cards.

I'm trying to be nice, but you have a very wounded understanding of the game. Milling has no statistical advantage for you, until of course it manages to win.

Also, why the hell is dark ritual in this deck? lol

[arwall]

I'm trying to be nice
Yeah, I know. :x

I really appreciate it.

I guess I'm just trying to defend the idea more than I am seeing the disadvantages of milling.

I'm currently working on a better deck anyway that is actually viable in the Legacy format.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I'm trying to be nice, but you have a very wounded understanding of the game..

LOL. That line just cracked me up. ^^

Hey man, it's actually not that bad; needs more mill to support it. From what I see there's a few things I'd switch up to make it competetive. For one, I'd drop the Nemesis, it doesn't really fit the curve of the deck very well. If you're gonna' go Dark Ritual, maybe try Hymn to Tourach to go with Duress... possibly even Sadistic Sacrament to pull out any pesky spells in their deck that could be more of a threat... I'm actually not against Ritual.. since the deck is played more along the lines of burn, speeding up the clock isn't a bad thing. Hedron Crab and fetchlands I've heard is pretty strong for mill. I'd keep the counters very simple, maybe Brainstorm (Ponder) backed by FoW to stop any inherent threats. I'm not sure Propaganda will be needed, since it slows you down as well, your life total should be enough defense, even stuff like Tabernacle will just be a minor inconvenience. If you decide to run more countermagic, maybe supplement it with Dark Confidant to build back your CA. Good luck

[radioactive yak]

I think that you are not looking at a few important things when you built this. The first as many people have pointed out is Emrakul makes it so you can not win. Then you have to look at what milling does, it takes a card from your hand and does nothing to the board and nothing to your opponents hands. Milling is really bad card disadvantage especially when you are using dark rit to power stuff out. Next the deck just doesn't seem to really have enough power to consistently git rid of the cards from the opponents library. Also the deck has no card draw and I don't think that force spike is the best option for that spot.

Glacial Chasm seems really bad with no way to recur it and Terramorphic Expanse is not very good.

[NukeMoose]

@NukeMoose: Yes, I agree, and I have taken all of this into consideration for Mindcast 2.0.

Suggestions:

Run maindeck Leyline of the Void so you can mess with opponent's graveyard strategies and beat Emrakul.

Make sure to run board sweepers as milling 3 Goyfs doesn't keep you any safer from their other Goyf attacking you.

[overseer1234]

I think that in 2011 Mtg community is ready to understand that Milling is not a competitive (and fun) way to win, unless you go HelmVoid or Painter Stone.

You forgot getting to 16 storm and casting brain freeze, or just get +/- 60 mana to stroke them to death...

[Angelfire]

This deck would give Thunderbluff a run for its money.

[Quark.Nova]

Since you are forced to run black, you maybe want to play Haunting Echoes or Extirpate. With stuff like that you could totaly remove some problem cards from your Oponents library.
Nevertheless, like others before me, i can tell you milling is not a vialbel way to win legacy tournaments.

[Mystical_Jackass]

One idea I had was using milling to "kill" your opponent vs to mill them into taking a loss.

Bloodchief Ascension, The Rack, Ensnaring Bridge backed by quite a bit of Discard & Countermagic would give you plenty of control, then once you get an active ascension.. one Glimpse or Damnation could take them out. The idea's pretty rough, but you get the point; it'd give you much more resilience than having to commit 100% to "mill burn". Obviously it still wouldn't compare to Helm or Painter

[FieryBalrog]

Milling doesn't work quite like you think it does, OP. Also assuming we want to build the optimal non-combo mill deck, you have a strange lack of mill cards.

[Mr. Safety]

It is probably the single most devastating disrupt in the game, unless of course, you are playing against a Reanimator deck and they reanimate something like an Emrakul, then you're pretty screwed.



You can't reanimate Emrakul unless you play Stifle on his graveyard trigger.

[arwall]

Milling doesn't work quite like you think it does, OP. Also assuming we want to build the optimal non-combo mill deck, you have a strange lack of mill cards.
Yeah, I've pretty much given up on the idea. It was nice while I was ignorant of the fact of how bad it was. :(


You can't reanimate Emrakul unless you play Stifle on his graveyard trigger.

Yes, I know that now.